Severance - S02E02 - Goodbye, Mrs. Selvig

[00:00:00] Man, I didn't know there was so much beef between doors and carpet. Have we begun? Yeah, yeah, we got that. Don't pervert a handbook passage to me, okay? Welcome to a Lorehounds amp, Properly Howard joint production covering Severance on Apple TV Plus. Season 2, Episode 2, Goodbye, Mrs. Selvig.

[00:00:28] I'm John. With me today, the fetid Moppet himself, David. I ate your shitty cookies. I don't need- Well, you just stole my line for Anthony. Oh no, did I? I was gonna say, he ate your shitty fucking cookies while Anthony's here too. That was my line for him. Steve, he always brings a pineapple when he's sorry. It's true. I have a question for all of you if you're ready for it. Yeah, let's do it.

[00:00:58] Would you rather be the victim of lactation fraud? Or suffer from brain circumcision? Wow. I'll take the lactation fraud. Thank you. I always felt like one begets the other. John?

[00:01:24] Man, you know, if it's lactation fraud like in the show, I feel like nobody was actually in danger in that situation. So I guess I'll take that. The question is, did she latch or not? I mean, then, you know, I mean, it's like how fraudulent can it be? Oh. Maybe she knows what she's doing. What's going on? So this is a catch me if you can thing. It's like, look, if you can fly the plane, if you got everyone home safely, who's complaining? Oh my God.

[00:01:55] All right. All right. We've got a lot going on today. So David, can you just give quick housekeeping before we get into our hot takes and everything? Absolutely. You can get ad free versions of this podcast without a subscription. You can spend five bucks on a season pass. There's a link in the show notes.

[00:02:15] There are going to be bonus episodes. The first bonus episode is out now. We're calling it the supply closet. And I talk with Nicole from Nevermind the Music, who's actually a professor of psychology.

[00:02:27] We talked about brains, structures of brains, where personality lives in the brain. And we get into some theory crafting because Nicole is loving the show and actually talking about like where the severance chip is implanted and how that's actually on the show. They're putting it in the right place. They get into glands. I listened to it. It was fantastic. They get into all the glands. If you're a big gland head.

[00:02:52] At the end of this podcast, there's a two minute teaser. Wait, wait, wait, wait. I want to just call out the phrase gland of the lost because I think I talked over it or someone talked over it and it is worth considering. Please continue. Please continue.

[00:03:15] There's a two minute clip at the end of this podcast before the outro credits. There'll be a little clip. And so you can hear Nicole and I talking about what we're going to talk about. So head over to Supercast, five bucks season pass. Or if you want to become a regular subscriber to the Lorehounds, you can head over to our Patreon or our Supercast. Those links are all in the show notes. You get so much more stuff that way. I mean, come on, come on.

[00:03:41] Hmm. There is, there was an error. If you did try to sign up for it, there was an error on the Supercast thing a couple of days ago. They resolved that they, people were getting caught in a recaptcha hell, just looping back and forth, back and forth about identifying bridges and motorcycles. They were, they were refining the macro data. Basically, I think so. All right. I never could tell a bridge from a motorcycle. You can send feedback to severance at the lorehounds.com.

[00:04:09] And you can join us on our discord, our community discord server. We've got a lot of folks chatting. We have channels set up for each of the episodes. We've even have a grand theory crafting channel, which we call the macro data. What do we call it? The macro data theory refinement channel. It's pretty fun. Please like rate and review the podcast and Apple podcasts. And lastly, this is a very specific thing. Patty L. If you're listening, Patty L.

[00:04:38] Your email is not working. We're getting bounced notifications on Supercast. So let me know. I don't have any other way to get ahold of her except to say something on the podcast. So email me at severance at the lorehounds. All right. Just so you know, Patty L. Could well be my mother. I just want you to know. That's very true. All right. Is she a lactation consultant? She was. Really? It would track to an earlier conversation that was not on record about Anthony's inability to manage technology.

[00:05:08] Or latch, by the way. Inability to handle technology or latch correctly. Absolutely. And yes, my mother, Patty L., was a lactation consultant for many years. Oh, wow. So it could be that. And also not great with technology. Friends and family. This could be. We could solve all of these problems just with a simple phone call. Like the classic statement always says, those who can't lactate, consult.

[00:05:44] Okay. All right. Let's get into our hot takes. We'll bring Alicia in for a second. Try to enjoy each hot take equally and not show preference for any above the others. Steve, since you're full of jokes today, what did you think of the episode? This was great. I was jonesing for some Audis. And I actually liked that things kind of, you know, there's so much happened in the first episode.

[00:06:13] And we talk about this all the time, but like how much can be managed in an economy of time. And it doesn't feel like anything's getting short shrift. This one, I just, I loved the pacing. I really, um, I, I, I'm so intrigued by the Audi world and, um, how now it's just oddly weirder than the any world. Um, and just the more layers of like, well, what is going on?

[00:06:41] Why, why is great doors such a understated signage? I don't, you know, and the name, I mean, it's like, they just, I just, that, that place for sure had a focus group that settled on great doors as, as the title. Uh, and yeah, I just, I, I loved it. I loved, um, uh, how it picked up from, um, from the season, uh, practice.

[00:07:10] I guess the thing is like, we're like, we, I feel, you know, we knew, or at least I feel like I knew there was no parade. Uh, there was no five months. Um, so this is, it was a really, uh, cool way to just get right into it. Answer a lot of questions, at least in terms of just some of the specifics of the time, but not like really answer any major questions. Right. Because I think big question at the end of the episode is the question that we're all asking in turn. Yeah. That's a good one. Anthony. Yeah.

[00:07:40] I'm going to take issue. I don't, I think at the end of the episode, I did agree with you, Steve, that there were no big questions answered and I was a little disappointed, but after rewatch, I think one of my biggest questions was indeed answered. So here comes the hot take. Okay. At the end of last season, I was the most cure, sort of the most perplexed by Selvig's motivations. Mm-hmm.

[00:08:09] But by the end of this episode, I feel like I've got a good handle on this and I could be wrong, but this is what has sated my curiosity. I think that Lumen is both cult and business. Yes. And some people are in it for the religion and some people are in it for the power, right? I guess both of those things are kinds of power, right?

[00:08:39] So some people are in it for sort of the power that a corporate, a major corporation will afford. And some people are true believers. I think Cobell is a true believer. I think she believes in the core principles. I think that she has a shrine in her house. I think she was very invested in whatever they were trying to accomplish on the severance floor.

[00:09:07] Whatever is happening, she's in it because it is going to bring her religious gratification. I don't think she cares about the corporate structure of it. And so she's not a really good candidate for a big cover-up. So I'm not saying that she's a good person. I think that she's a cult leader. So that makes her a problematic character for sure.

[00:09:32] But I don't think I really understood at the end of the last season what really motivated her. Is she on Mark's side? Is she on the corporation side? And what I've come to understand about her is that she's in it for the religion side of Lumen. For Kier, not the Eagans. Yes, that's right. Yeah, I guess Kier over Lumen or something like that. Yeah.

[00:09:58] And it explains a lot of her weird behavior. She's acting like someone who will do anything to bring about the second coming or something like that. She's not really in it simply to, I guess, make Lumen look good on a political level.

[00:10:21] You seem to, when you mentioned that you discovered that Lumen was both cult and business, is that atypical for cults and or businesses? So I'm glad you brought that up. I think if you think of the word cult in a religiously sort of technical term, like cult usually has a negative connotation. As does business. Yeah, sure.

[00:10:49] If you think of it in terms of like a religious study technical term, like cult and culture have the same root. And so it doesn't necessarily, there's not a necessary line between them. And so whenever a big business... But those are two very different things. That's true. If a business is trying to create a culture, it is trying to create some kind of corporate ethos, right?

[00:11:18] Cult is just a religious side of that equation. So I think for people, maybe people like Milchek, it's both. You know, maybe there is no line between the cult and the culture. But I think for Selvig, one of these things is dominant in her motivation. And one of these things she just couldn't care less about. She couldn't care less about the politics of the corporation.

[00:11:43] She cares deeply about whatever the religious outcome is for what's happening on the severance floor. I think the least believable thing to me about that is just that she went to the Myrtle Egan School for Girls, which is essentially, you know, Catholic school for Egan's, for Kears. And nobody comes out of Catholic school a Catholic. True, true. So I don't know. I don't know about that. No, I'm just kidding. But I do think that that actually does lend credence to your theory. Well, let me just say one more thing.

[00:12:13] I think that you will find this in most religions, people who are smart enough to recognize that there's corruption in the organization. But what they do is they retreat back to what they think the core principles of the thing are so they can kind of stick around for it. Right? And I think there's a great analogy here with the Mormon church, but also with any religious system. You've got people that will abuse the power of it, and then you've got the true believers who are in it for some other reason.

[00:12:42] And they may be as deeply deluded as anyone else, but I do think that there's a difference between people who really buy the mythology and people who see it as an avenue to power.

[00:13:23] Right. And now looking at today, it's this multi-billion dollar corporation. But there was so much emphasis on the founder. And the founder was this almost cult hero. And not thinking of him as somebody who was trying to make a buck or trying to profit off of understanding disease and disease management. But it was this person was out to heal and make the world better. I mean, this lore just keeps on going.

[00:13:52] So then as you would advance, as you would spend more time there, your service awards would come in the form of these medallions. And these medallions would have his quote on it. And there were those that were just full-on buying into the, like, this is all about bettering the world and saving lives. And then there were people like me that are like, just keep that check coming. Mm-hmm.

[00:14:16] And I will, I'll nod, I'll wear the badge or whatever it might be. So I think, but like, there is a capitalistic tendency. There is this sort of like, you can separate the two, but you can also say what needs to be said in order to kind of keep moving up the ladder. Right. And I think both cults and business have these tier effects. And almost regardless of your motivation is how you can progress.

[00:14:44] I mean, you can be a secular person in a church who's very successful as long as you sort of play the role and say the right things. This is the first time I'm learning that you worked for George Foreman selling his grills, Steve. David, David, let's get your take. Well, I get bored halfway through the episode and turned on Special Ops Lioness, so. I needed Zoe Saldana and some guns.

[00:15:13] And a giant helicopter. A giant helicopter with really muscular men and big facial hair. But one short fat guy just to round out the crew. That's right. I see you too are a devotee of Special Ops. He can crank him out too, man. That guy. What's his name? The producer of it. Sheridan, yeah. Yeah, Sheridan. He's a machine.

[00:15:43] I can't gush overly too much about this episode. It was sublime. It was incredible. There was a moment in Dune 2 where the... There's one particular scene at the very early on where some of the enemy troops are floating up the side of this rock. And something flipped in my brain with however Villeneuve was playing with the cinematography and the tone and the color and the background music and all this stuff.

[00:16:12] And I was like, oh, this is the magic of cinema. Like I was transported out of my body and I was like in this blissful state of like watching these moving pictures. And last night there was a scene where Helena and Mr. Milchek are talking in the corridor before she goes to talk to Ms. Kovig.

[00:16:41] Is that her right name? Kovig. Kovig. That's what it is. And... I think we can all agree on that nomenclature. Yeah, yeah. I think it's appropriate. The camera dollies backwards with Milchek walking down the corridor. And then we switch to an exterior view of the building.

[00:17:04] And then the camera follows Helena as she's walking through the hallway and we're seeing the exterior of the building. While Milchek is still walking down away. So we're getting this left, this perpendicular moving away while the camera's moving sideways. And I had that same sort of transformative moment. I was like, oh, the magic of cinema.

[00:17:29] And then there were episodes, there were scenes later where they were editing like with Milchek riding his motorcycle and it was fading in and out. Sorry, that's the milk mobile. With a magnificent helmet. With the scene fading out with different characters on their faces. The colors, the extreme close-up of the eyes. Just this whole visual thing that they created just broke me.

[00:17:59] And I don't think I'm ever going to be the same again because this is just some of the most exquisite television cinematography that I've ever seen in my life. Yeah, those doors going back and forth, rotating during the conversation with Dylan in the job interview were mesmerized. And them sitting opposite each other, the way they balanced the shots. There's blue all over this episode. There's a great scene where Milchek is talking with Mark Scout later.

[00:18:28] Mark has got the sort of institutional green behind him. And Milchek has the ultra blue behind him. It was just phenomenal. And Trammell Tillman is unbelievable. His acting in this is incredible. Interesting use of blur at times. Shots, especially like lower frame. A lot of negative space stuff. Like they would block it. Yeah, a lot of negative space.

[00:18:58] Way over on the right or the way over the left. And then the whole other side of the screen, there's just nothing there. Even the way that the Pips sign is all the way to the right in that big landscape shot. And the trees to the top over the mountains almost look... It took me a while to keep looking. I just kept focusing on them. Are they airbrushed? Is this like Truman Show stuff in the background? You know, I was just...

[00:19:25] There was enough there visually to add to so much of the mystery and just so much of the richness of what's going on. I concur. Did you clock the parking lot when Mark is getting out of his car and all those old sort of, you know... I don't know. I don't want to call them what, middle class cars? Yeah, it just felt very like, you know, whatever the lowest end Buick is. Exactly. For a catalog for that?

[00:19:54] Was that digital? Yeah, was that digital? Was that just a few of them and then they digital... I don't know. It was incredible. It was seamless. It was absolutely seamless. There were so many funny one-liners as we've been tossing out. So the writing is so good. I think it is right. I agree. The acting is just on another level. And I guess my only criticism is I didn't really care for the new opening credit sequence. Oh, yeah? I thought it was spooky and great. I really liked that.

[00:20:24] It's a little jarring for me. It's a little AI, weird shaped bodies. I don't think it's AI. This was actually... I saw a TikTok on this because, you know, by the way, we're on TikTok. We're on TikTok. We make the TikToks. We've got a couple videos on there, a couple clips from the podcast, things like that. So go follow us on there at the Lorehounds. Because we're really just a secret communist plot to shift your Overton window about... You know, I think we're all fine. But anyway... But anyway...

[00:20:53] I saw this TikTok about how Ben Stiller was actually just scrolling Instagram and he saw... See, you're the... This is it. This is the thing. It's just like... I don't get my news from anywhere else. I get my news from TikTok. I literally read the New York Times today. But anyway... Anyway, my point is... You've got me all hot and bothered now, David. I got you. I got you. He was scrolling Instagram. All flustered with your old mandom. Now, anyway... He had some shitty cookies. He saw Ben Stiller on...

[00:21:23] Ben Stiller was on Instagram. He was scrolling through and he saw this animator who had like a really spooky kind of thing. And he hired him off of Instagram to do the season one and season two animations. Wow. Yeah. So... Okay. It could happen to anyone, right? All right. I believe... I believe that they also do an Alt-J video, if I recall. I don't know. Okay. Well, I was trying to be hip. We can find that out. Okay. I don't know. We'll take care of that post if we need to.

[00:21:49] Just one little thing on the title sequence, since we're talking about it. Ben Stiller said that the idea for the balloons in the first episode came from the art in the title sequence. Okay. The artist just decided to do the whole balloon motif. And he thought, well, let's bring balloons into the first episode. And that's where we got the... Oh, that's cool. That wonderful line, enjoy your balloons.

[00:22:18] Along with fetid Moppet. That's my new... Oh, gosh. Fetid Moppet. Was it the first line of this episode? Other than like flashbacks, I think. Yeah. Other than the flashback audio. Okay. I... It was the first character to camera. I had to pause it. I was like, I like the fetid Moppet now. And then I wondered, like, am I going to have to pause every line? Is that what's going to happen? This episode was almost like that. It was almost like... Stop trying to make fetid Moppet work.

[00:22:50] And it was just such an utterance of just erupted out of him. Just... Fetid Moppet. Which, I mean, come on. And it's the same level of ridiculousness of Rebecca saying, don't blame the baby. Like... Like, why is he calling her a fetid Moppet? She had no control over what happened to her. Why is he upset with her?

[00:23:17] Oh, I thought it was like a jokey pet name and he was testing if it was her now. That's how I read it. Oh, is it like her... I thought it was actually calling her a stinky child. Is that like her talisman in... What was the... Inception. Inception movie. Yeah. Is that like that? I never watched Inception. That's on my list of things I need to watch. But also now I think that I've heard so much about it that I would not enjoy it if I watched it. And that's just unfortunate. Well, that is an interesting take on that, John.

[00:23:46] Because that would make better sense if it was sort of like some kind of key... Like inside joke, I thought. That's what I thought it was. Okay. Sort of like a way to tell like, are you really you? Yeah. That's what I read it as. Okay. But what would the Annie have said? Like, what you're talking about? Would have looked at him strange, I thought. Yeah. You know? But that's what Devin says to you. There is a Mr. Drummond in this episode, so I think it's appropriate. Yes. Yes.

[00:24:16] I mean, Devin says to Mark, what's my name? And he says, Persephone. And she says, can you spell it? And, you know, so that's like, that was their little code of testing. That was their inside joke. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Huh. That's interesting. All right. I could buy it. I just took it as an interruption of frustration. And you had nothing else to say. Yeah, that could have been not too. It's an odd thing to say if you've got nothing else to say. It's true. You stinky child. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:45] Because nobody says odd things in the outer world. John, what about you? You know, I think I'm going to mostly just echo what people say. So I'm not going to talk for long. I just think that I want to talk about pineapples. And other than that, great episode. Great episode. Like Anthony said, didn't really solve a ton of stuff, but gave us a lot more context. I feel more confident in my theories, not less. And I'm excited to get into the theory crafting.

[00:25:14] So I saw a... I was not watching Special Ops Lioness. I was actually watching some Star Trek Discovery on Paramount. And twice I saw an Apple TV streaming ad. And the clips that they were playing of what's yet to come this season are like made my eyes pop out of my skull. I was like, what the F are we in for?

[00:25:40] So I think for all of our great theories, which I think are not half bad, we're in for so much more, I think, in this season. No, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not countering anything you were saying. I just think that there's so much more that is yet to be revealed. Yeah. No, I think so, too. I think you're right. Although I haven't seen that trailer, and I don't want to. No, yeah. It really was like, oh my God, it was disturbing.

[00:26:05] It shows up on various things I have, and I kind of try to look away, but I do see just enough to be like, huh? There were scenes that actually made me think of yellow jackets. Like, what the hell is going on? People wearing antlers on their heads and shit. I was like, what the hell is going on? Yeah. All right. All right. So let's take a quick break. When we get back, we'll get into our full breakdown.

[00:26:37] Hey, everyone. David here. I'm really excited for Severance Season 2. From what we're hearing, the new season is living up to the hype. The Lorehounds are teaming up with Properly Howard to bring you comprehensive coverage of the new season. Join John, Anthony, Steve, and myself each week starting January 17th. I think this is going to be a really big show. So here's something special we're doing. We're offering a season pass for just five bucks.

[00:27:06] No subscription needed. Just a one-time payment. You will get all of our Season 2 coverage completely ad-free. Plus, you can catch up with Steve and Anthony's Season 1 rewatch series, also ad-free. We've got some cool bonus episodes in the works. I'll be sharing more about those during the course of the season on our regular episodes. Now, we know everyone's dealing with a little bit of subscription fatigue these days, which is why we wanted to keep this simple.

[00:27:35] Five bucks gets you ten episodes of the kind of coverage and fun that only we can deliver. I can't promise you a waffle party, but I can promise our coverage will be just as satisfying. Ready to join us? Head over to lorehoundsnetwork.supercast.com. That's lorehoundsnetwork.supercast.com to get your season pass. You can also find a link to that in our show notes.

[00:28:04] Look for the link tree, and then there'll be a link to the season pass right there. If you need any help at all, just visit the lorehounds.com and use the contact page. We're here to help. ...interrupt your podcast listening. And remember, the podcast you're about to hear is not the podcast you're currently hearing.

[00:28:44] All right, everyone. We've got a lot to talk about here, so let's talk about... I've divided into five plot lines based on the characters and then the meetings last we could talk about. Just on Helena. Audi Helena deals with the fallout of the Macrodat uprising, sending Milchik on a mission to deal with the Audis. She offers Cobell an apology and a promotion to the Severance Advisory Committee. A made-up thing, which she agrees to consider. I agree.

[00:29:13] She then records a false apology, pretending that her innie's outburst was a drunken joke of her Audi. She watches her innie interact with Mark S., including their kiss. After Mark's plea to the board, she is required to return to Lumen as helly are. I mean, a lot of great stuff here. You don't value me, you fear me with Cobell. Mm-hmm. And I love that when she's doing her video, she goes, it was a non-lumen medication.

[00:29:44] For an arm rash. Yeah. I think the... Wait, can I just say for an arm rash? She was wearing a sleeveless dress. Yeah, right, exactly. Did she say arm? Oh, yeah, she did. She said arm rash. Okay, all right. Yeah. I think Anthony's theory is interesting about Cobell being a true believer, while Helena is in it for the power. And they're using... Right, she's an apparatchik, you know, right? She's using that... Is that the right way to use of that phrase, that word?

[00:30:12] She's using the structures of power to maintain power? Or, where I think Anthony's right in that Cobell is a true believer. Yeah, and the idea that a lot of times, I think, going back to Anthony's discussion about religious institutions, you see it in churches where maybe the pastor's son takes over, right? And it's almost like multiplicity style.

[00:30:38] The more you get removed from your source as you make further copies, maybe they get less... They're more about the legacy. And the legacy becomes a little bit more about preserving, you know, maybe the business side or just making sure that the organization is healthy and continue for the next generation.

[00:31:01] And so that generation building becomes the priority over maybe what the initial mission was that founded, so to speak. Right. I wonder if Miss Huang also was at this girls' school that Miss Cobell was at. And if this is the same trajectory that Cobell had, whereas she started as a child, like shadowing somebody, shadowing the head of the severed floor. And then she worked her way up. And that's why she feels so slighted.

[00:31:29] This is what her entire life has led up to since she was like a child. Somebody posted in one of our Discord channels, I'm trying to find it now, like a side-by-side of Mrs. Wong. Here it is. It's in the episode one chat. And it was Hibby Hibbity, who does it.

[00:31:48] And it has Mrs. Wong standing next to, and I don't know where it came from, but it's a picture from the school of a young woman in pigtails and wearing like a crossing guard style, but also sort of a young Communist Party style outfit. And I don't think that they're the same person, but there's a similarity there.

[00:32:13] So I think the school definitely is part of the fabric here. Huh. That scene, which I didn't, I don't think I picked this up until the second time, but I thought it was really interesting when Helly was watching her innie kiss Mark. Mm-hmm. That you almost have a reversal of voyeurism. Like, I think that for the first season, these innies almost worshipped their Audis as gods.

[00:32:44] It's like, I wonder what's happening on the other side. Mm-hmm. I wonder what they're doing. I wonder what kind of muscle shows they're up to. And it was almost like the Audis were something to… Kind of like Tron, right? Like the programmers. Yeah, they were really invested in sort of their real lives on the outside, right? What is my Audie like? Yeah.

[00:33:10] Helly, or Helena, is now using kind of her innie persona as a kind of voyeuristic gratification. So I thought that was an interesting reversal. It's almost like innie Helly is living a fuller life. Mm-hmm. Than exterior or Audi Helena.

[00:33:34] Are we to infer that maybe they're just watching all the time and this is not her first time taking a look? Or… I still don't know how many people are working for Lumen. Like these are enormous rooms. Yeah. They're enormous rooms with very few people in these rooms. Yeah. It's the night shift. This is where the gala was going on. I mean… I don't think Helly can watch all that often, though.

[00:34:02] I mean, she's watching in this moment. Are other people watching potentially? Yeah, that's my point. You know, she's been in. It's like you would need a lot more eyes if you're going to watch every moment of these innies, right? So… And about that kiss, it's a really passionate kiss. It's a really emotionally loaded kiss.

[00:34:26] And I don't wonder if Helena, like you were saying, has that jealousy because she doesn't have that in her life. And her innie has found love. And replaying that line is so key, too, right? Like, you know, in case we don't come back or in case we do. And to the point where, like, there was a moment and, you know, I think maybe… You know, so much is done with facial reactions in this episode. Oh, my God.

[00:34:51] And I think her reaction suggested to me when, like, she made a reaction immediately, which is, or in case we do, like, the sense of, like, oh, I kind of want to see what happens with these two. And the only way to do that is to reunite them. And I think it's an interesting question is from episode one, was that Helena or was that Heliar? I still think it's Helena. I do, too. Yeah, I'm Helena Pild.

[00:35:19] I think it's because there's another clue later, and I'll just call out somebody who said this. There's a clue. Pawsin20 and Eon said, Helena's key card didn't beep when she scanned it going into the elevator. There was a beep with all the others. I was paying attention to that, too. Yeah, because I was looking for every clue in that when she went to the elevator. I was trying to find every element there. I saw that comment, and then when I was doing my second watch today, it did beep when she inserted it. Oh, it did? Yeah.

[00:35:50] All right. All right. Well, regardless, we did not see her in the elevator. We did not see her change or anything. No, it just closes. I think they know. See, here's what I'm worried about, though. I think that we are getting baited into some kind of conspiracy that's going to be completely side as a separate point to the main mystery. And then we're going to be talking about this for three weeks. And Ben Stiller is going to be like, you weren't looking at the goats. Helena's going to become Petey, and we're going to be like, oh, my gosh, that was that same season. Oh, my God.

[00:36:22] I found it pretty interesting, too, that Helena is – I mean, she's the daughter, but yet she is so – I just got the sense that there's a lot of – she had a lot of authority. Yeah, she's at the VP level or something. Yeah. So you get to see a little reversal with her and Cobell, you know. Yeah. Out here, I'm your boss. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:52] And Cobell is definitely not taking that advisory committee assignment, right? That's what I read. I think so. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. It was this soft, like, oh, consider that. I think she's gone. Maybe she'll come back season finale or something like that. I think that there's – I think that her vehicle is called a rabbit. Yes, a VW rabbit.

[00:37:20] And I think that she was meant to – I think she always had a little bit of rabbit in her blood, and she was going to bolt it at some point. Interesting. Interesting. She's going to go off to the caves and be – find the source, find the purity of her belief or values. A Franciscan monk of the Lumen. She's not done with Kier. That's the one thing I know about Cobell. She's not done with Kier. Right.

[00:37:48] I don't know if she's going to come back as an ally to the innies or what. Yeah. So there's a couple other thoughts on that kiss from the Discord. Chumbaruni, which – what a name. Said that scene of Helena watching her innie kiss mark like she's never had physical intimacy before was very telling. I love it. You can see the TV showing them kissing in her eyeball. Mm-hmm. Such a cool shot.

[00:38:13] And Abby was saying a bit unclear still if it's innie helly or outie helly. Outie helly did seem intrigued. Perhaps Helena went back as helly to check things out. For me, I could see it both ways, right? Is let's see what happens with my innie and that innie. Or let's see if I have chemistry with that innie too.

[00:38:34] Or if Mark S is a house divided and maybe if he's attracted to helly R, he'll be less interested in finding Miss Casey. That's a good point. That's a really interesting question because I was talking with Nicole on the bonus episode about personality and where do you live?

[00:39:00] Where do you reside in your brain and where if they're severing these memories and these different kinds of memories, you know, how are you the same person? And so I almost read it as Helena's jealous of her innie and so she wants some of that. But then if Mark S is, you know, the innie is like getting a vibe shift from her like, oh, you're not helly R. You're not the same, right?

[00:39:28] Then, yeah, that's going to be an interesting source of dramatic tension there. Whatever the case is, we have confirmation that Mark is the key to whatever they're doing, right? Yes. Yeah. Mark has to finish this project. Yes. This company is going to move heaven and earth to make sure that Mark S is at his station.

[00:39:53] And if it takes Helena pretending to be his love interest, I think that they're going to do it. That's a good thing. And only 20% up and he's like, wow. I think 50% would have lit his red flags off. I think they actually picked that as like a generous but not red flaggy amount. Yeah. I almost thought 20 was high. Yeah. 20 is crazy high in corporate America. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:20] We did have a lot of feedback on why is Mark so special? Well, Zatoichi, Pazin20, Millie all wrote in and basically said, you know, why is Mark special? What was the order of the Gemma versus Mark special thing? I think Zatoichi summed it up most concisely. I was thinking of the cloning of Miss Casey theory. What if it was Mark's project? What if he's been building his wife's soul for this new body?

[00:40:44] Would even Severed Mark be the best for that project since he might intuitively know what numbers to pick to create this version? I hope that made sense. Yeah. No, I totally agree with that. And I think that that is why these regular interactions between any Mark and Miss Casey are important. It's to kind of remind him of how he feels about this person.

[00:41:10] And then when he goes back to work, everything about the numbers is about feeling, right? Mm-hmm. So there's something about reconstructing Miss Casey or doing something with this particular person as maybe, I don't know, a prototype or a guinea pig for cure or something like that. So they sent her back down to the testing floor, right? Yep. So maybe she's a tester, the one that we've seen.

[00:41:36] And the other thing is that Cobell, I want to do the Cole Selv, what is it now? Cobell Vig. Cobell Vig. It's like stuck in my head. You're not going to get it, man. Just give it up. It's like stuck in my brain. Cobell is so interested in watching and monitoring the relationship between Casey and Mark. Yeah. She's really keyed in on them.

[00:41:59] And she's monitoring them outside as well to see if, as Melchick says, you know, that positive feeling is going to come back out and up for you. You know, she's monitoring both sides of that, of Mark. Is anybody concerned that there's too many cloning clues at this point to the point where we start wondering if maybe this whole thing is to, like, as you were saying, like, oh, this is, they've got us, you know? Yeah.

[00:42:27] I mean, I feel like that's as good, and it's fine, right? I mean, it's fine to kind of figure things out because then the show can continue to develop these things out. Because I think part of, there's two things. First off, do we know how long this series is intended to go? So, I don't think I've heard. I don't think we know, but I know that Ben Stiller has the ending known. Like, he is not going nowhere. He is going to a destination. Right. Okay. Yeah. Which is good.

[00:42:54] So, the question is, like, can this show exist if the big clone mystery, if that's what it is, or whatever the mystery is, is revealed? And then now, like, because that's the, this is almost the, whatever this mystery is, once we figure out what they're doing, is that going to be when Sam and Diane get together and the show just doesn't have that chemistry anymore? And we're just going to follow through with it? And we're just like, all right, let's see what happens.

[00:43:21] Like, like how much of this show, and I don't think, personally, I don't, I don't think that it relies solely on mystery. Because there are so many wonderful aspects to it, whether it's just visual, the acting, the incredible one-liners. Because, you know, in the same world as all this, like, creepy, you know, tension exists. But the mystery is, like, I mean, that's what kind of gets us all frothy, right?

[00:43:44] So, it does, it does make me wonder, like, if, are we going to find everything out at the end, or will we find things out, and then now it's the aftermath? Is that how this show is going to go? So, because it does feel like, if it's, if it's getting to the point where it's the latter, where it's like, oh, we'll get, we'll deal with aftermath of discovering this mystery. I mean, you could get to it this season or, or, or next, I guess. And we could be moving towards that.

[00:44:12] And it might be why we're getting so many clues to cloning, where it's like, all right, you guys figured that out, but you, you don't really know how it's going to play out. It's hard to say. I love that Sam and Diane have their own complete wiki page just about their relationship. Right. I mean, you got, I mean, look, how many seasons is Cheers? I was watching Cheers, like, a year ago. I was like, man, this did not as well, but it's fun. Season five seasons? No, it's like 11 seasons. Yeah, it's like 11 seasons. It's like a crazy amount of seasons. It went on for another, like, six seasons without Diane.

[00:44:42] Mm-hmm. With Allie, Allie, uh. Christy Allie. Don't sleep on Christy Allie's Rebecca Howe character, by the way. She's got some, some really, really great scenes. I've always called her Rebecca. Can I just say that I, I just, Rebecca, Rebecca never disappoints.

[00:45:04] I love, it's almost like Rickon, who, who is the personality that would be so over the top that they would ignore and annoy Rickon? I love that, like, even Rebecca annoys Rickon. She's just an extra level of too much for even Rickon to take. So, so Heather's been, like, you know, theory building as well.

[00:45:30] And she's, she thinks that she, she's in on the cloning aspect. She's in on the idea that we get these innies that sort of come into the world. They have enough information to sort of manage things, but they're kind of, they range between, like, kind of preschool mentality to adolescent. And then she's, like, then you go to the outside world and it feels like there's a lot of, you know, severance floor rejects that are just wandering around, right?

[00:45:56] Like, Rickon being one of these guys that knows just enough how to type, but maybe not as well to spell, right? Like, and there's just this element of, like, like, he knows that he should be weary of Milchek, but he's easily distracted by a magnificent helmet. You know, like, there's just elements of, of these, like, like these, these people are like kind of half bait. And, and I thought that was a really interesting thing.

[00:46:18] And then looking at, uh, and, you know, talking about cloning and seeing, you know, the Dylan and I think it's what Mr. Sabrisa or I forget exactly his name, but like, obviously they're parallel, but there's so much like similarities that adds to the cloning element that sometimes I feel like, okay, it's a little heavy on the concept of cloning. Like maybe they're not pure replicas, like maybe Rickon and Mr. Drummond are coming from the same, you know, uh, whatever news that they're making, right?

[00:46:43] Like there's, there's similarities in how people are, are, are looking or maybe behaving that suggests that there's a lot of like beta testing going on here. And, uh, and severance is like the next step of that, right? Like they've been doing it in other fashions, like pre severance. And then this is the world that was created from that. And they're like, well, it's just not, this isn't good enough to bring cure back. Let's try this other form. And then we'll use that. Like this is all like an evolution of, of an attempt to bring cure back.

[00:47:13] So this is kind of like, um, a dog training program where it's the best and the brightest. They end up being service dogs, but then there are a bunch of reject dogs that didn't quite make it through the school. But, but, oh boy. And so this town is populated with, by the reject service dogs. This dog will help you get your milk, but it'll also bite a child.

[00:47:39] But look, I, I do think that there is something to be had for this like reject aspect. I know that we're thinking like maybe we're being too led down the clone trail, but I do like it. And they are continuing to give clues, uh, clone clues. Because the pineapple thing is throwing me off too, because pineapples are one of the fruits you can clone. You can, you can graft them basically into new fruit. And have sex with. Okay. All right, Steve. I forgot to, I forgot to mute. Wait, wait, wait.

[00:48:09] Steve, are you saying you can't have sex with other fruit? Because I got news for you, man. What's up, I was talking about wrestling with an apple orchard earlier? Yeah. Pineapples naturally, they naturally ring, Anthony. You're just not trying hard enough with these other fruits. I'm not trying to core. I'm trying to ring. Is it the, is it the added risk that excites you of being able to stab yourself with the outer? Oh yeah, for sure.

[00:48:38] That's, that's like, that's the only way I can feel alive. This is not what John thought this conversation was going to look like. This is what happens when, when you do a joint production with Properly Houred. Fair enough. You should see my eyes roll back when I eat pineapple pizza. That is some spicy salami. So, so anyway, the pineapples are clones. That's, that's all.

[00:49:07] Look, if you, if you are cloning pineapples, you're going to have a lot of duds and you're going to need to get rid of them. Every time you need to do a gift basket, you're going to have the pineapple front and center. Of course, of course it involves pineapples. You know, let me, let me just pull in David's clip here. Was a pineapple involved? Was a pineapple involved? That's the first thing that Mrs. Co-Belvig asks is, is it was a pineapple involved because they have a surplus of them. They have a surplus of goats. I'm sure there's a big goat milk economy coming out of Lumen too.

[00:49:36] So easily swayed. I am so easily swayed by the pineapple. I do like the, that little detail there that it, it seems like. At the very least, there's an elaborate scheme to get us to believe in the clone theory. Yeah. Right. It's like either the, either the show is all about clones or it's all about sort of throwing us off the scent with, with clones.

[00:50:03] Well, this is what I was saying before about the, the ad that I saw. I think cloning may be very well the, the, the core of it. Sorry. Um, but I think there's so much more yet to, I think there are, are, are layers upon layers of this. Yeah. There are rings. There could definitely be further mysteries. Yeah. Yeah. Cause there's, there's okay. The clones within to what end. And then what does that mean?

[00:50:33] And what is the ultimate, like, like what is the price that has to be paid for this and what? I mean, like they, they can't, at least any Dylan is like casually. Okay. With, yeah. I mean, you had to kill the other team. I mean, look, I'm, I'm sure you, I'm sure it was for good reason, you know, like it's, it's, and you know, so there is an interesting sense of that. Right. But what happens if they find out, like, like, I think even they understand, well, the person didn't die. They just no longer are in any, but like, what if there's bigger things at stake here?

[00:50:59] Like these, these, um, innies are still sort of naive to like some of the, the, the real world problems. Right. And what happens if they, if that veil of, of ignorance keeps getting removed further and further, like what, what's going to happen? Is Ms. Casey full-time severed or is she blank? Is she a clone and has no memory from her before this? It's a good question.

[00:51:29] Her Audi is, her Audi is in a casket. Right. Cause Mark said, I saw, I identified the body. Well, but if Lumen controls the town, could they just swipe the body? Like. Yeah. I don't know. I think that when he says I identified her body immediately, I thought, okay, this helps with the clone theory. And then the question is, which is the clone? The, oh, the, the, the death. Oh, the dead one. Did he identify a clone?

[00:51:59] Yeah. Right. Yeah. No, for sure. But he didn't start working for Lumen until after. Well, what if Gemma was in on it? Already. What if she was working for her? Did he? Or she wasn't and they already had a plan and she was, you know, who knows? Then you go to why them? Right. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess that's the central question in this. What's so special about Mark? Mark, let me, let me just read the Mark synopsis and then we'll talk more about Mark. Audi Mark wakes up after yelling, she's alive.

[00:52:27] When he and Rick and think, which he and Rick and think refer to the just found baby Eleanor. Devin is not sure. Mr. Milchick arrives to pry the trio for information and explain the overtime contingency, promising they won't be bothered by Kobelvig again. When Devin brings up Gemma over breakfast, Mark gets angry and storms off, telling Devin he's planning to quit Lumen. The camera reveals Mr. Drummond spying on them.

[00:52:52] Mr. Milchick then tries to convince Mark to stay at Lumen with a 20% raise, which he eventually decides to do. At the end of the episode, he controls, he confronts Kobelvig and asks about Gemma before she runs him off the road in anger. What is going on with that? I mean, the fact that she ran him off the road, I will say, you know, I always say don't subvert my expectations, exceed them. I was like, all right, she's probably gonna like back up real fast and like drive away and evade him.

[00:53:21] I did not think she was gonna literally just drive right into him. I saw her as freaking out to catch him off guard to get past him. That's how I saw it. And maybe I didn't necessarily, I knew she needed to hightail it out of there. I don't think she, I didn't read it as she was gonna potentially. Yeah, the honking of the horn suggests get out of my way. Oh yeah, I don't think she was trying to kill him, but really like aggressive.

[00:53:50] I mean, maybe she didn't hear the Gemma thing at all because she was still stewing over the insult to her cookies. I think she knows how bad her cookies are. They were purposefully bad so that Mark would suffer. They're made with breast milk. Oh my God. So actually, let me bring this up. So there's another theory that I've seen like stewing around online that each of the innings represents one of the four tempers.

[00:54:18] So Mark would be woe because he's depressed. You have Irving with dread since he's got that like fearful hallway thing. Dylan, obviously frolic and Helly being what's the other one? Malice because she's the one who's always like angry and attacking and trying to kill her outie. I think it tracks pretty well. And that's what I was thinking until this whole thing of they only want Mark S. That's what throws me off of that. But I do think Mark S has the woe.

[00:54:48] For days, you know, I think I but I think Dylan. I think we I think inner Dylan might be more frolic. Outer Dylan. I would not say that at all. I mean, are we to infer from his story, at least from his resume, that he the only reason why he may have taken the severance program is because he just needed full time work. Yeah, he needed insurance. Which which is crazy. Right. I mean, that is such an interesting like of all of the ones to kind of break down.

[00:55:17] His is just like I got nowhere else to go. I can't hold a job or whatever it might be. And so like that's such a that's to me, that's got maybe a little bit more woe to it. Right. Because it's like, wow, this guy's just he's severed. Like he did this controversial thing and completely upended his life. Like he he has a family that from what I gather sounds pretty lovely. Like like his wife is like genuinely like supporting him and caring for him.

[00:55:47] But he like maybe part of his issue, too, is like he has to completely like he can't get a phone call from her during the day. He can't see his pictures of his kids during the day. He can't even just like, you know, get a surprise visit from them during the day. And he probably has a pretty good family life. But in order to make it work, in order to provide for them, he's he has to like suffer being pulled away from this. And it's that to me was like one of the more more heart wrenching reveals in this in this episode.

[00:56:15] I know we're on the Mark story, but in terms of just like the woe versus frolic, I just I any frolic, maybe Audi frolic. Not so much. I don't know. He was joking around, though, a lot with the with the. Like he would be a carpet salesman with the door guy. Until he made a joke at the expense of doors. Right. Yeah. Doors are not really a laughing matter. What kind of a door would you be? You know, what would everybody be? I was I was like the first thing I was thinking like revolving.

[00:56:44] And then like when he said pocket door, I'm like, yeah, you're pretty good. You got that. But isn't that such a good metaphor for severance is that you just tuck yourself away for eight hours? Yeah. My daughter mentioned that. Oh, that's that. That's a nice little motif. What about a garage door? Garage door was another was my second. Oh, yeah. For just a couple of days, I think it'd be fun to be Jim Morrison. Oh, which days that I think that depends a lot.

[00:57:14] John, who was the person who brought up the four different tempers? Oh, nobody from our discord or anything. I just saw that. But I know I had I had dug it. I dug that up. Okay. I like that on a literary season one rewatch. It was as I was getting to the end of it. I caught that because then I read the macro data refiners handbook in the Lexington letter right as I was finishing my season one rewatch. And it was like right there.

[00:57:41] So I like this theory on like as a as a theme, like in order to sort of bring an interesting theme into the story. I don't necessarily like it as a plot device. Oh, you mean matching them one to one? Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I think that there's there's it's nice aesthetically to have that symmetry. You know, she's definitely malice. He's definitely whoa, you know, all of that business.

[00:58:10] I don't know if it has much impact on the plot of the show. Yeah, I would agree. I would. Yeah. And I think that's fine. Especially although I'm with you, especially now that they only want marker. I don't if they don't need anybody else and I don't think it matters. Although Mr. Drummond does have the word frolic tattooed on the webbing of his the hand of his. You'll never guess where whoa is tattooed. I got an idea.

[00:58:40] Yes. Going back to sort of this concept of, you know, maybe these they're unfinished versions. I mean, let's look at some of these names. I mean, I know Rebecca changed her name, of course. But then you have like names like Rickon, you know, it's just like there's they're they're they're not regular names. Like was he Rick N? Right. Devin. Right. Right. Like maybe maybe. Yeah. At one point she was Dev.

[00:59:11] Last name N. Right. Like same thing. It was Rick and then N. And then now once they're out, they're just like their full name. Oh, they're Rickon. That's Devin. But if he's not a real person, how could he come up with gems? Like they cannot crucify you if your hand is a fist. Well, because have you talked to Chad GPT? Bullies are nothing but bull and lies. That's pretty good. No, I did.

[00:59:41] That is what all I watched. I my poor wife was falling asleep last night because I came home late from a realtor seminar where I was the funniest guy in the room. And and so we're watching this and she's like, just you can't pause it and rewind it a bunch because I'm falling asleep. But man, when she was like, Devin says, I agree with Rickon. And Rickon says or she's all Rickon is right. And he says, I agree. I thought that was hysterical.

[01:00:06] Like, I mean, Rickon's got some great ones, but that particular in the way it's just and it's just all within the flow of conversation. Again, going back to what we talked about before was how we really appreciated that the show respects the intelligence of its audience. And that's like to me, just one of those examples where it's like either catch it or you don't. And it really doesn't matter because we're moving on. Shout out to Jen Tulloch, who plays Devin. I'm really enjoying her character a lot and what she's bringing as an actor to her role.

[01:00:34] But man, that that diner scene and between Mark and her just the end of the change that Mark goes through that that Adam Scott is as an actor is to go from his happy go lucky in Ian to this really woe, woeful character on the outside is is just an incredible character.

[01:01:00] And one of the things that struck me in the episode was he has Betta Fish. Yeah. And, you know, so there and then they were playing with that. They're playing with that in the season one and in the season two credit sequence of there's two, you know, of the two the two characters of the two marks. Well, and the idea why you have to keep Betta Fish separate is, you know, because one will kill the other. And in order for them both to exist, they have to be separate. Right.

[01:01:28] And I think that's just it's a fascinating visual. And I really yeah. And then going that that diner scene was so powerful. It was so it was it was so meaningful and it really worked in terms of like you're seeing him. He's ready to quit. And then but he doesn't have he's missing a third of his life to process grief. So so so he's so far behind the idea of getting over it.

[01:01:56] And then so Milchak and still push the the Gemma buttons. And then the the the the idea that there's a version of himself that is is happy and has moved on, even if it's because it has no recollection of it. But that idea is like he as a selling point is just absolutely fascinating.

[01:02:17] And the idea that in order to make that happen, the outer version of himself has to test to be in pain like this much longer because he has that much less time to process it. And at that. And so all he really does is he just kind of Myers. And I mean, he's he's condemned to not get over it because he doesn't have much of a life outside of that. It is really like it's it's so it's so compelling. It's it's it in from a narrative perspective, it makes a lot of sense.

[01:02:46] Like, well, now I know why Mark gets back in there because because he's just sad as hell. And I think it totally works. I think if there is another way you can look at this, he's decided not to go back right all the way back to first season. He's gotten hints from PD. He's even hurt himself in the break room. He's considered, you know, he has that whole plot with Ruggabi. He knows severance is weird.

[01:03:15] He's already he's already suspicious. He can't bring himself to believe that his his wife is actually alive. So that that's it's really hurtful for him. And and the hurt sort of registers as anger. He's not going to go back. But then when Milchick shows up and says, you you're happy, you're funny, you found love.

[01:03:45] It's the love line. I think what I think in that mind, he thinks, oh, maybe Gemma is maybe Gemma is down there. And maybe that maybe that's who I've fallen in love with. Yeah, because he doesn't because he says with who and he doesn't say. Yes, that's right. And I think that maybe he thinks maybe he thinks I should go back because even if there's a 1% chance that Gemma is alive down there, I would probably fall in love with her. Which is a whole brand new thought for him.

[01:04:15] Only at the beginning of this episode, like he. Yeah. Prior to his sister and Rick and telling him, like, you know, questioning whether, you know, who he was shouting she's alive about. So this is all new for him, right? Like it's it's still developing. It's as a thought. It's still developing in his mind. Yeah. I think it also very well could be that he's just he just still needs he just still needs a crutch or whatever.

[01:04:42] But I do think that there's something about the idea that he found love that intrigues him enough to return. You don't think you forgot about the Petey narrative like most of us did? The whole thing. You know, there's this other thing that comes up. Devin mentions really briefly in passing that I guess you can petition with a lawyer to talk to your innie. Where was that? In the diner. That was it was in the diner. OK, OK. She's like, oh, you know, maybe we should speak to him again.

[01:05:12] You know, whatever is a lawyer. Maybe we could. I know you can petition. So I just is that true? Do they ever grant that petition? They don't grant the resignations. And how could you write like in order to do that? You would have to you would have to either work the overtime contingency or you'd have to have some sort of communication via lumen. Right. And that's and there are multiple contingencies.

[01:05:38] So that's the other thing is we don't know how all of those play out. Right. Like are any of those something that can actually be controlled by lumen? Who has no punishments? No punishments. And it's interesting that they use that. You know, he uses the wellness checks as as kind of a carrot or for Mark. And first thing that happens when any Mark walks in, he realizes the wellness center is gone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:06:06] I have to compliment the. Writers for backing last episode of all any and then this episode, all Audi. Just beautiful construction that mirrors the any Audi itself. Right. And it's just it was so good. It was so smart to to start the season this way.

[01:06:28] Well, just just the how one of the things I completely appreciated and that was great was that one of the things that happened at the end of once the season one ends. You're like, oh, my gosh, what's Audi Mark going to do now that he knows that his wife is alive and you look back at how well that was constructed and the timing and how when he comes back in and how it's like, no, there's you don't know that that's that he knows that.

[01:06:50] And to pick that up was like to me, that was a real subtle, important reveal that added just a little bit more tension to the to this whole experience because you start thinking, well, if he knows that, then what's going to happen here is like, well, that's how you can keep this thing moving along. Because because there is no definitive evidence that that's what any Mark was talking about.

[01:07:11] And that that just it's a little bit of a just all these little subtle things that really show how well constructed this is and how it can keep you just off from your from your theories. And to consider the fact of the, you know, a season one filming to a season two filming and then with all of the disruptions in between. Right.

[01:07:35] And then the, the, the, the tension between Erickson and, and Stiller that they're able to create this cohesive artistic and, you know, it's science fiction, whatever, you know, whatever words you want to throw on top of it. But to, to have a cohesive vision and put that on screen, unbelievable and just phenomenal. Can we agree to that?

[01:08:01] There was no in universe time past between, you know, Mark just took off the weekend and then went back to work. There was no five months like they were telling. Oh yeah. Yeah. Five months is fraudulent as is the paper. The paper was, they invented the paper and then redacted the paper. Mm hmm. Yeah.

[01:08:21] I mean, just the, just the mind, just, just, just the, the mind games that are, that they're playing on these people. Did you see the original photo that they Photoshopped them into? People found it online. It's an Eisenhower motorcade. Oh, so. Okay. Nice. So, and, and if you look at the four of them, that's just their. Their faces. Their faces. Their faces. No, that's just their staff picture. Oh, they just graphed their exact poses. Nice. They just put that right.

[01:08:51] Because obviously they had to get like the intern to do the Photoshopping because it's overnight. Right. Because the intern. Yep. Yep. And that's why Cobell's name is still on the computer. That's why the wellness center is like haphazardly taken down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. It explains a lot. Of course. And I know there was, there were questions about that in the feedback last week, but yeah, for sure now. Okay. I also got the sense, and this is my, my wife's perspective.

[01:09:14] It was just like, ah, I think that the, the Cobell thing on the computer wasn't just a time thing, but also they're still kind of, they're still kind of messing with Milchek. Yeah. Like, like, cause, cause at the end of the day, this did happen on Milchek's watch. Hmm. Let's. A little passive aggressive. Yeah. Let's, let's get some feedback. And we got a voicemail actually about Milchek. So let's hear from Karen. Hi, Nancy. Hi, guys. This is Karen E., also known as Zero Ducks.

[01:09:42] I haven't talked to you guys since Hot D. So it's been a while, but I am back for severance and so excited to be back with Lorehounds. I wanted to comment on Milchek and employees of Lumen in general. So more thinking about things from a 10,000 foot view or maybe even higher than that. I think that there are many layers to what's going on here.

[01:10:07] And one of the questions that arose in my mind with season two, episode one is how do they recruit these employees who seem to be not severed and not clones, such as Miss Cobell and Mr. Milchek? I do think that Miss Huang is probably a clone or something like that. And that Miss Casey is probably in that type of situation.

[01:10:35] But we know from Miss Cobell that she was a true believer in Egan and that she had maybe some other reasons for willingly following this system and being an overseer of the severed. We don't know much about Milchek, hardly anything at all. So is he a psychopath?

[01:11:01] Is he a true believer? I guess I would lean more toward true believer because I think that it takes maybe some kind of religious zealotry to be able to do the things that he's doing with a clear conscience. I also think that just as Cobell became disillusioned, that he similarly may have some kind of a breakdown if he is in fact a religious zealot.

[01:11:30] I also think that it's interesting that they're able to find these people who believe so deeply in this construct that they've created around Keir Egan that they are willing to torture other humans. It reminds me of Milgram. It reminds me of the Stanford Prison Experiment that there's some bigger societal implications going on.

[01:11:56] And it also makes me question how much does Lumen control in the Audi society? How deeply ingrained are they in the government that they're able to do these things? Is there this confluence of religion which they've created around Keir Egan and power? And how is that topical for today's society, particularly in the Western world in general?

[01:12:23] So all of this really big stuff is sort of going around in my mind. But then where it comes back down to detail is Milchik, who to me is the great question of the moment. Who is he? Why does he do what he does? And what are we going to see him do this season? So many other questions to come, but that's where I'm sitting right now. I have a quick thought on this.

[01:12:47] The first is that I think most of these employees are cult followers on some level. At one point, Helena says to Milchik, let Keir guide your hand. Mm-hmm. Yep. This is a religious language that they share in common. She doesn't have to explain what that means to him.

[01:13:16] He just kind of has this insider lingo in mind. Which just means go on vibes. Yes. I think it's like for, I think you could read it in a couple ways. But what I'm reading it as, they have the same religious background. And it very well could be that in the same way that, you know, that the Catholic Church is both one of the biggest businesses in the world and the biggest religions in the world.

[01:13:45] You don't become a bishop in the Catholic Church unless you have a long religious devotion to the Catholic Church. I think Milchik is along these lines. Mm-hmm. I agree. He has to be, as she was saying in her voicemail, he has to be a true believer to be able to do what he's doing. With a straight face, with full sincerity, to sit down, may I sit with you? Oh, yeah.

[01:14:14] And sit between Rick and Devin and Mark Scout and answer their questions and be confident and have no doubt in his mind about the veracity of what he's doing from his worldview. Right? Having spent a brief afternoon at the Scientology Celebrity Center, there are certain, like, because just who, like, the people I would see, the people I would interact with,

[01:14:41] with sort of the newbies that would do the initial tour and show the video and walk you through some of the show-and-tell stuff. Like, it really, there's elements of Lumen that remind me a bit of that and some of the other research I've done. And if you've done this idea that you can work your way up and you'll learn more, the more will be revealed to you as you have shown. Proven. Proven the dedication. Proven your loyalty.

[01:15:11] Proven your grasp of the tenets or whatever it might be. Proven your loyalty. Proven your loyalty. Proven your loyalty. Proven your loyalty. This is very, I think you, I think, I think we've neglected to point out that particular organization in our analysis. I think it's a very apt. Yeah. And so I think that too, like, so when you have somebody like Milchak who, and going back to Anthony's take about like, the idea of this, this marriage of Colton business.

[01:15:40] Um, you could also do that by knowing all the right things to say and all the right things to do. And you can still be loyal and you can still be devoted, but you might not necessarily buy it in the same sense. Which means that your behaviors and your actions might not necessarily reflect, uh, the, the, the so-called pure, uh, original vision, so to speak. Yeah. Where Cobel is so far over. Anyway, sorry, John. Sure.

[01:16:05] Well, and, and so when there's this conversation about, and I would, it really came to mind when, uh, when Milchak is convincing Mark to come back and he offers him money. Uh, he offers him, uh, care and, uh, and then he offers him hope.

[01:16:22] And the hope is that, that, that doing this process will, even though it's a, it's a different part of your brain, uh, it will impact and eventually influence your other behavior in the other part of your brain. Very much like a, kind of like an audit, like that, that, that someone would go through where they would, uh, sort of go through a past experience all the way down to like maybe something that was repressed.

[01:16:47] And then once you unlock that and you realize that you've been the same being forever and ever that you, then, then this new version of your consciousness would somehow marry the old version of your consciousness. Just say do bring healing. So, no, so there is, I mean, there, that's what I, I mean, that very much like the, the audit sense, like, I don't know if you guys have ever seen the master, uh, which I think is a, is a pretty interesting, uh, look at the auditing process.

[01:17:12] Um, uh, and again, having watched the video during the tour of the auditing process, um, it was, uh, it was, I, that brought me to that kind of notion of, of being able to like, Hey, one part of once you tap into this part, the other part will then follow. Cool. Why don't we take our last break? Then we're going to come back and wrap up the episode and we're back. All right.

[01:17:40] So let's talk about the other two innings. I want to go pretty quick through this because I don't think there's a lot of lore here. It's mostly just, uh, details that we have to talk about. We've got Dylan who, who, you know, it's got the ice pack on his head. Milchick goes and fires him saying he was the aggressor in a physical altercation and he will be terminated. He interviews at great doors, almost gets the job before he admits he's a severed worker and faces discrimination because of it. Uh, Milchick arrives with a pineapple and he returns to Lumen.

[01:18:10] I think we kind of did the door thing. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, we talked about him a bunch already. Yeah. Uh, we also have Irving, which we didn't talk about at all. Uh, after denying anything out of the ordinary, Irv is fired by Milchick. He finds his innies mapped to Bert. And later he calls someone from a pay phone to report my innie got the message. Bert watches him from a car. He returns to Lumen. So what's Bert doing? Yeah.

[01:18:38] So he was pounding on the door. We never saw the resolution of that. If I am correct. No, he didn't. He had to, he had to get from Bert's door to home. Yeah. Some way. But you know, I mean, somebody is pounding on your door and you're packing up to go on vacation or what have you. Um, what is, is Bert's, yeah. Like what, what is Bert's point of view on this? We don't know. Bert's like, that was my brother. We're just very friendly.

[01:19:08] We love each other. Why the pay phone? Why the pay phone indeed? He doesn't want to be monitored, but what if Lumen owns the town? This, I love this show. Yes, but he's using a pay phone. There's a pay phone in this world. Mr. Milchick has like a smartphone thing and they're like accepting people with chips and he's using a pay phone. I love it. I love it. He's using a pay phone suggesting that he thinks maybe his own phones might be tapped. Yeah.

[01:19:38] Um, yeah, maybe they are tapping the pay phone. Maybe the pay phone only exists in this world to, you know, for this purpose. Right. But in terms of what Irv's perception is, he's trying to be careful. He thinks his own phone might be tapped. Yeah. That's why he wants to use the pay phone. Well, and he had, cause he had all the secret stuff of, uh, with names and everything in his, in his trunk at his house, like hidden. And so like he, he's, he's obviously paranoid. Yeah.

[01:20:08] And, uh, well, yeah, yeah. So he's, he's, he's got a plan. I mean, obviously if any has the message, it's, it's kind of fascinating that like Irv who the any that we knew all, all year, the first time around was like the, uh, sort of the good soldier and loyalist, uh, loyalist. And then like, it turns out that he might be the most subversive in, you know, of the four, but he's probably a soldier at home, right? Maybe that's just sort of his ingrained follow orders. Perhaps. Right. Yeah.

[01:20:37] So that's what you're seeing is the version of him challenge it. This is a little bit what he shows that. Yeah. This is a little bit what, um, uh, Nicole and I talk about on the bonus episode is like how, you know, if you, there are parts of you and there are parts of your memory that are, are part of you that aren't part of your personality and like how do different things emerge?

[01:21:02] That's one of the interesting questions of the, of the show is like what, what, uh, fundamental characteristics are part of you, you know, Mark being upbeat and smiley. Was he also upbeat and smiley when he was, uh, an Audi, you know, before he became severed and when he was living his normal life without having suffered the tragedy of a, of the death of a spouse. You know, what. To go back to the four, maybe he was frolic the whole time, but this instance is what, what made him woe.

[01:21:32] Or Heli is like, like her, when she's inside, she's a hellcat and she's trying to escape and she's like vicious and she's willing to push it all the way. But that also makes her probably a great Luma employee once she's under control and she has her sort of, you know, that part of her personality under, under wraps. So, but it's still there and still present. So, and what do we got? Irving Bailiff, uh, Dylan George, Mark Scout.

[01:22:01] So we find out Irv's last name. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Uh, somebody pointed out that two of them are occupations or more like roles scout and, um, Bailiff. It's interesting. Interesting. But then George, George breaks that pattern. Yeah. I, I mean, I don't think there's much more to talk about this, but I guess we just got to watch what Bert does. Maybe, maybe they're in a thruple now. Who knows?

[01:22:26] Can I, you know, speaking of, isn't it funny that, uh, Milchick says to Mark, Oh, what's up? Oh, Bell was having to have, trying to have a thruple with your Audi. And now we think that Mark is going to have a thruple with Heli's Indian Audi. He was just predicting the future. Maybe that was an Easter egg though, for us to like hint at, you know? True. True. When I saw a Bert follow my, my initial thought first up, first time watching it. Oh yeah. He's probably got to figure out who's that guy banging on my door.

[01:22:54] But then when I watched the second episode again, like going, okay, what if I just lean into some of these clone things and the idea that there may be multiple versions of people that aren't identical and that being part of the experiment, right? Like part of the reason why they have to keep experimenting is because they've tried to remake Keir, but he's not quite Keir. And so that's why I'm like, okay, well maybe Rick and Mr. Drummond look similar to me because they're sort of of the same ooze. Like, okay, well maybe that explains why, uh, when you got this, this great mirror thing

[01:23:22] at the great doors interview between Dylan and Mr. Sabresa. And then I'm like, what if Bert's an older version of Irv? And maybe that's where the attraction came from. So I started going down all that kind of, that, that would be, that probably filed that into like maybe a hot take. All right. All right. He's kissing himself. That's the hot. Yeah. He's in a, he's in a thruple of one.

[01:23:47] I mean, Dan G asked, is there something about being severed that allows you to do this work? And I think that's a good question. Hmm. That's a good, I think that's an interesting question. Like could, could Mark just put together his wife again or does he need to be severed? Does he need to be a blank slate? Well, again, on the bonus episode, Nicole talks about different kinds of memory and that there are different types of memories that, uh, there's declarative memories, there's semantic memories.

[01:24:17] Um, I forget all the other ones, um, but maybe with certain kinds of memories present in your mind, you can't get that kind of focus or transcendence into the work to get that hyper focus. If you've got all your other personality bits, you know, floating around in, um, and getting in the way of you focusing on the, cause you're going off an intuitive feeling, right? These, these numbers make you feel something.

[01:24:42] And if you're part of your intellectual mind is too busy with, Oh, I got to pay the bills and I got to get the kid to the vet or get to the kid to the badge, get the dog to the vet and, um, and pick up my kid from the daycare. Those kinds of things are going to intrude on your ability to get the baby wipeys. Well, I mean, let's be honest. I mean, I'm doing a podcast right now. I probably should be working. Um, if I were severed, I wouldn't know who you guys are and I would be, and I'd actually be more productive. Much more productive.

[01:25:11] I think, well, yeah, we shouldn't talk about people's real jobs on the podcast in case any employees. Fortunately, nobody I work with is listening to this. And if they are, you know where to find me. That happened once. I actually posted something on a Facebook comment and got a friend in trouble because we were playing hooky. So, Oh boy. Yeah. It was, she was like, ah, it's fine. I hated that job anyway. Well, let's talk about other people doing their jobs. We have a couple of meetings with Heli Milchick Drummond and Natalie.

[01:25:41] We had, we didn't see her since last season. She was the one who fired a cobell, I believe. Right. Yep. And they decide to send Mark back to work with an overseas floater and two employees from branch five X after Mark's plea, which is on a tape recorder. For some reason, Mr. Drummond reports that the board is giving Mark what he wants. Branch five X. Everyone went, huh? When he said from branch five X. And we remember Mark W said, I thought I had been permanently retired.

[01:26:10] So what happened there? And then he gets, he's pissed because he gets laid off after three days. Or did he get laid off? Bob Balaban. So I'm sorry. Is, is five X, is that supposed to mean something to me? Yeah. That's the, uh, Mark W. Balaban, uh, says that he and, uh, oh, Wendlin. Yeah. Yeah. We're from branch five X before. Yeah.

[01:26:37] But we, but that's the first time we've ever heard that phrase. Correct. Right. That's correct. Right. So that's just an ongoing mystery. I wanted to flag. And everybody did go five X. Like, what are you crazy? Like that was a shit show. You're going to bring back the five X. Again, that's, I think goes back to this. At least my theory that there are a lot of like this whole thing. And again, because we see a little baby care crawling, uh, in the, uh, um, credit, uh, the, the credits.

[01:27:04] And it's like, and obviously it's all, uh, you know, uh, sort of hyper realized and everything. But the idea that it's a baby with it, with the old man care head, like kind of gives me the, the idea that maybe that would, that happened. Right. Like they've been trying to, they've been trying to recreate here. And every time it's like, man, the formula is keeps on getting screwed up. We tried all these things. So we just created a town full of rejects. Oh. And then remember what happened at five X. Oh, you remember that first place we tried with the, with the, where we use brooms and plates, you know, we were, we wouldn't put it much, much money into that.

[01:27:33] You know, but this one is found out the other guy's a floater. Dario is a floater. Yes. So he would go overseas and move to different places. Well, and something to think about too, in terms of that budget, I think that, I mean, maybe I'm, I'm doing exactly what I'm saying that they're probably trying to get us to do is if there were animatronic ones at five X, but there weren't animatron, there's not animatronic ones that were Mark is, and that one's still going. Uh, but there were plates and broomsticks where, where Dario was like,

[01:28:02] what does that say about either time or budget or how long these people live? Like I, it's, it's time. It becomes such an odd thing in this. And that, that, that, those, those three realities are existing in the, and Dario is probably the youngest of all of them. Yeah. So, so how does it work that he's in a place that like, so it, it mustn't have been a time could have been a budget thing, but it could be, it just adds so much layer of like, what the hell is going on? What is going on?

[01:28:31] I think I, I think we all have that question after this episode and it's going to be an exciting season to go through. Anybody else have other thoughts on this episode before we head on? Yeah. Did you notice the Latin phrase on the back of? Yes. I translated it. Yeah. What did you, what was your translation? Uh, Google translated it for me, in fact, and I, I posted this on my blue sky and I threw it in our thing.

[01:28:57] Um, uh, remedium hom inhibus, a remedy for men. Yeah. So it's a remedy for men. That was in the first season too. Yeah. Yeah. So this is a, a phrase that you could easily read as, um, a remedy, like a cure for all humans everywhere. You know, whatever ails them, we're going to cure the humans or you could read it as what

[01:29:27] ails you? It's humanity. Well, you're going to need a cure for that ailment. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I don't know if this is just something that specific to mill check or if this is something that's supposed to. No, Mark, Mark's car had it as well in season one. Interesting. So it's the license plates for this area. It's for cure PA. So yeah. I love the idea that it's cure. Like it's also translated cure for man here. Cure. I think it's fascinating. I like it. I like it.

[01:29:55] Also, I don't, I don't, cause I have to look at everything, including, um, uh, newspapers that are just red herring. Um, I want to know is Dieter's brother a band? I know that it says Dieter's brother live. No minimum at, uh, one of the, uh, bars that, that Milcheck, uh, speeds by. And I just can't help but thinking who's Dieter's brother. Is he a, is he a one man show? Is he a, is that a band? I have to know more about Dieter's brother. I don't think we'll ever know.

[01:30:25] I just want to call out with this license plate. It's not a state license plate. Correct. Suggesting that this guy's, uh, maybe this, the entire campus is the town. Mm-hmm. Maybe this is a vehicle that only stays on campus. And Helena says in her apology or her contrition video, she says, our friends and allies.

[01:30:50] And allies is a really weird term to use. Allies are political, geopolitical, right? Or, or just, or, or like, um, in terms of advocacy. Right. But I'm saying like, they have control. They have allies, right? You know, we're allied with, uh, these things. So, so do they, how much do they have their control? Are they a special tax district like Disney is in Florida? Interesting. Yeah.

[01:31:19] Uh, I, about the, uh, uh, a remedy for men, uh, wherever you put the comma, if you do put one, it reminds me of, um, how to serve man in the day the earth stood still. Shout out to every single sci-fi film ever podcast where it's the cookbook, right? It's a, it's not, it's not how to, how to be of service to man, but it's a, how to, how to cook man. Oh. Which I think the Simpsons did a spoof off of.

[01:31:44] If we're going to do that, is, is not, she's alive at least an homage to Frankenstein? Frankenstein. Mm. That's good. Ooh. Um, I'm going to be just collecting all these license plates. Uh, let's see. Uh, Milchak LFS 159. Yep. Um, Mark YCL 624. I think Irv's is HDR 559.

[01:32:12] So, uh, Anthony, could you just figure that one out? Yeah, I think that this is going to reduce to a prime number at some point. Right. Numerology. Uh, I think there's only one needle drop, uh, on this one. Young men's blues, 1957 by Moe's Allison, who was a really influential American jazz and blues pianist, singer, and songwriter.

[01:32:36] Uh, the Who would regularly cover this song at live shows and concerts and stuff like that. And I'm, and almost made the song more famous than the original, but then a number of other bands have also covered it. But it's the one song we get when Dylan's driving to go to the interview. So with that, we could, we could get the idea of most people are familiar with, uh, the cover than they are the original. Right. And that would go along with some of the cloning concepts that we might be having here.

[01:33:05] Oh, good call. Good pull. I like it. All right. Let's talk about what else we're doing on the network. But first, let me just say, if you want to write in, thank you, Nancy, for collecting all the feedback. Severance at the lorehounds.com is where you can get emails to us. You can go on the discord. Nancy pulls some from there and, uh, you know, just, just chat with us. We have a lot of fun. And voicemails. Find us in the link tree. You can find us all on all the socials and all that. Uh, you can send voicemails.

[01:33:35] Just take a voice memo with your phone or something. David, can you just tell me what's going on on the network? Maybe, or maybe I should have Anthony and Steve talk about their own podcast first. Yeah. If you are interested in the weird wild world of Lumen, uh, you're going to be even more interested in the weird wild world of cocktail. Uh, what it was the actual, actual factual life, the actual factual life of bartenders

[01:34:01] in the eighties, uh, who sometimes go to the tropical islands. Sometimes they go to art shows and punch out the artists. Uh, this is a very strange movie. It's, it's a horribly made movie. I hated this movie, but I love talking about this movie. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Tom Cruise's Audi, uh, is, uh, punching out sculptors and his innie is in a Jamaica, uh, wooing Elizabeth shoe. You know, this ties into severance.

[01:34:30] Did you hear that Adam Scott said that he didn't train at all for the running scenes? He just watched Tom Cruise running in suits. He said Tom Cruise runs in suits better than anyone in the world. Oh, I see it now. Yeah. That, that, that, that Christian Bale, uh, was, uh, used Tom Cruise as his inspiration for, uh, Patrick Bateman. Oh, that's funny. David, what else is going on on the network? I have no idea. Okay. Nevermind the music. You heard from Nicole on the bonus episode.

[01:35:00] They just did a bonus up of their own on the, on the Grammys. Yep. So check that out. They got plenty of weekly podcasts on music and psychology. Great stuff. Uh, we have radioactive ramblings doing their red rising read through and doing their studio. I think they just finished red rising. Yeah. There, there was a final episode I thought. Oh, for the first book, but they're doing going on. Oh, is it multiple books? Okay. It's like five books. Yeah. Okay. So they, they got plenty of time. Okay. You can go listen to that series still.

[01:35:27] Uh, and they've got their studio Ghibli. I'll finally say it. So nobody yells at me today. Movies that they're covering. Uh, also we'll shift us. It's just wrapped up silo. I think we've got like one other bonus episode coming out. Right. And I think Alicia was actually talking to one of the writers and, uh, hopefully something will. She knows you. Howie. Don't you remember my impression? No, I'm Alicia. I know Hugh Howie. That's the writer of silo.

[01:35:55] She, uh, I believe her and John have a lot of stuff coming up for comics versus, because we've got a whole bunch of marble, Marvel, marble, Marvel shows this, this year. So. Yep. If you are, uh, of the comic book, uh, fandom type, then, uh, hold on because there's a lot coming down the pipeline. And if you're only on the severance feed, don't forget to subscribe to the main lorehounds and properly Howard's feeds. If you already heard what properly Howard's doing, lorehounds are going to be doing white Lotus coming up wheel of time.

[01:36:24] And, or the last of us, plenty of content to come, plenty of bonus stuff. Don't forget to stick around to hear a sample of the bonus episode that you can get on the season pass or on the regular Patriot or super gas subscriptions until then I'll leave you with this quote. Your so-called boss may own the clock that taunts you from the wall, but my friends, the hour is yours. Hey, Nicole, how are you enjoying severance season two so far? I'm loving season two of severance.

[01:36:51] I can't wait to like explore the brain science of what they're doing in this hypothetical universe. Speaking of brain science, you and I, I know I said, Oh, 10, 15 minutes should be fine. We just talked for half an hour about brain science. And, uh, I don't know, that seems sort of on brand, but you were talking about the limbic system and the different types of memories. Yeah. The limbic system is really where our, you know, our soul is seated in our brain, both with

[01:37:18] the hippocampus and the amygdala and that its relationship to the frontal lobe and how our brain instruction in terms of how it like manipulates and forms memories. It was really cool to explore the pineal gland, especially, and how in this severance world, I really feel like those are the areas of the brain that are being manipulated in order to make this in the Audi personality shift happen. And you noted that like on the x-ray, when they're showing the chip insertion process,

[01:37:47] that from what you saw, it seems like they put it in a region of the brain that would be accurate for how we understand the brain today. For sure. The limbic system is right in like the middle of our brain. Like it's surrounded by all the different lobes, uh, like the temporal lobe and the parietal lobe and the limbic systems right in the middle of it all. And in the brain scan, when they showed the chip inserted, it was right where like the hippocampus and the pineal gland would live. And I jumped out of my chair.

[01:38:17] I was like, oh my God, it's real. It's really happening. And it, it really makes me think of the Neuralink technology and how far that can go, which is a different conversation, but interesting for sure. Nonetheless. Yeah. Well, great. Well, that conversation is available to our regular subscribers as well as anyone who's purchased the season pass. So if you're interested in hearing Nicole and I get real nerdy on the brain, go, go check

[01:38:45] out either of those options, whatever works best for you. I know we're going to be talking to Mark, your cohost from Nevermind the Music. I believe next week, we're going to talk a little bit about the music, the background music, as well as the needle drops of the show. And then I'm looking forward to having you and Mark both together later on down the season, and we can all kind of come together and nerd out a little bit more and do maybe like a mini Nevermind the Music podcast of what you and Mark do on your music psychology related podcast. Awesome. I can't wait. Sounds great.

[01:39:15] Thanks again. Thank you. This podcast is a joint production of The Warhound and Properly Howard. Click the link tree in the show notes for links to more podcasts, our Discord server, and ways to support the show. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Is it to Frank or to be?