Severance - S02E05 - Trojan's Horse

[00:00:03] Don't pervert a handbook passage to me, okay? Welcome to a Lorehounds and Properly Howard joint production covering Severance on Apple TV Plus, Season 2, Episode 5, Trojans Horse. And that's not a misspeaking, that is the title of the episode given to us by Rick and Hale, PhD. I'm John, with me today he's recovering from an unfortunate contretemps, Anthony.

[00:00:33] Hello. He's a contributing journalist to the Bullshit Gazette, Steve. You betcha. And he put the dick in contradiction, David. John, I'll have you know that my affection index on this podcast is in the high 60s. Well, we'll see what the Apple reviews say on that. David, can you give us the quick housekeeping? Uh, don't forget to check out Steven Anthony's unauthorized erotic entanglements known as Properly Howard. Who wrote this script?

[00:01:03] I didn't read it at the time. I don't know. Who wrote it? Yes, check out Properly Howard. They just finished their, uh, a few good films series. And, uh, the new series is in the kitchen being mixed up as, as we talk. You can get ad free versions of this podcast without a subscription by spending five bucks on a season pass. Links in the show notes below.

[00:01:26] Included in the season's pass as well available for regular subscribers is our supply closet bonus episodes. I've had a couple of conversations with Nicole from Nevermind the music about psychology, one with Mark from Nevermind also about the music of the show. Anthony, you've got one in the pipeline. It should be out, uh, in, uh, early next week with, uh, talking to a philosopher and ethicist, uh, Jason Aubero.

[00:01:54] And, um, we have more plans in the works for various conversations. If you're interested in talking about the show in a little bit more real time fashion, head over to our discord. We've got a special channel set up there with all of the different episodes siloed so that, sorry to cross over, uh, so that we can, you know, me manage and maintain, uh, the integrity of the conversation.

[00:02:18] If you want to send in feedback, please use the email address severance at the lorehounds.com. Nancy, our hand of the pod will be happy to collate your submissions. We take voicemails as well as emails. And please remember to like rate and review the podcast. It's a busy podcast market out there. There's a lot of coverage and, uh, even the reviews and, and even just a few words does help our standings, uh, in the horse race.

[00:02:47] That is the modern landscape of podcasting. It is very easy to get people to review when they're mad at us. Um, for example, we got a couple negative reviews this week about, uh, one of us calling Irv Burt. They were not happy about that. They'll dock a few points for that. Uh, but, but it's harder to get people to say nice things in reviews. So if you are feeling like you're liking this podcast, I hope that you'll go down to the Apple podcast and write it.

[00:03:16] Enragement equals engagement. And we'd like to alter that. That's true. And keep in mind all of you who are going out of your way to give us negative reviews. Chances are, you've actually gone through and like, Ooh, I made a typo in my review. I'm going to go quick, delete that and then change it. Um, we're doing this right now. So, um, just keep in mind, you can change your, your Irvings to Burt and vice versa when you're leaving a review. But when we're out here, you know, doing the Lord's work, it's going to get messy. We're going to call Helena Helena. Yeah.

[00:03:46] And if you must leave a negative review, would you please use the phrase Swedish horseshit in the review? Please. That's fair enough. That's a fair request. All right, let's move into hot takes. Let's, uh, get right into it. Please try to enjoy each hot take equally and not show preference for any above the others. Anthony, what's your hot take on this week? I need more Ruggabi. I had a little bit, a little bit of her.

[00:04:14] I feel like Ruggabi is sort of the central. She, she sort of is the gatekeeper of the mystery box. And I got a little bit of Ruggabi this episode and I am quite enjoying the, uh, the fact that Mark doesn't quite like her living in his. He, those two are kind of an odd couple and I'm, I'm here for it. I'd like to see more of that. You could edit it as a sitcom, right? If you wanted to. Uh huh.

[00:04:44] Here we, we, we're sort of near the end. We've almost got two full hours of screen time. We're just now seeing the consequence of reintegration. And, uh, I am a little bit impatient. I'm a little bit impatient. Well, it's, it's, well, yeah, there's a little cough. There was a, there was indeed a cough. I know that I noted the cough.

[00:05:11] No, the end of the episode, uh, was worth the wait. Uh, I need to see the consequence. Uh, you know, I just got a little taste of it. The cough is actually the result of Mark remembering a prostate exam that his any had. Speaking of taste is are the pills and the little, um, vials of cold chicken noodle soup or whatever it is.

[00:05:38] Is that part of his, uh, reintegration regimen? Or is that, are we learning that that's just now when you're severed, that's your, that's what you have to do in the morning. He's a subscriber to magic mind and magic mind will, will send, send all sorts of things to you. Pete Holmes right now saying, I mean, it's cold chicken soup, but it's worth it. I, that's how I took it. I took it as, uh, this is all part of the, you know, he's got to take vitamin C and

[00:06:07] you know, a healthy dose of chicken broth or condensed cream of noodle soup or whatever that is. Uh, it's all part of our Gabby's plan. Like when my buddies were like, Hey, we're going to go shrooming in here. Take these vitamin C tablets. It helps. Okay. People were trying to figure this out online, what it was. I don't remember where I saw it on our discord or on Reddit, but, but I guess there's some

[00:06:32] kind of like, I think like fungal, uh, you know, you know, boosting thing that you can buy online. And so people think it's that kind of thing. Like you're saying, he's just trying to not get sick from reintegration. He was listening to Rogan and Rogan was like, Hey man, you gotta, you gotta make vials of cold chicken noodle soup. Dr. Oz is actually really popular in Cure, Pennsylvania. Right now. RFK Jr. Yeah. Just go on to horse chicken soup. You can get.

[00:07:00] We're very concerned about reintegration. So Steve, you're talking of today. What's your hot take? I just, I just caffeinated. Um, so I'm wondering, um, so this, this episode made multiple, um, uh, references to like the discipline of not seeing innies as people. Um, right. So, uh, I mean, Helena says they're animals just straight out.

[00:07:29] Um, um, Ms. Wong, Ms. Wong as well. So, you know, you know, maybe treating them like people. And then, um, then, uh, uh, Mr. Drummond, I don't know why that makes me laugh every time, but Mr. Drummond, uh, is like telling Seth, you know, like, let's not lose sight of who, you know, who they really are or what their, what their purpose is. Right. And so, um, so the, obviously there's, there's this discipline and I, I wonder if, I mean,

[00:07:56] and, and two times it was, it was mentioned to chastise Milchak is, is Milchak going to be a, uh, an ally at some point? Um, I'm wondering because I mean, it seems as though his, his, uh, everything he's doing is becoming more and more with clenched teeth and more and more with a sense of discipline and purpose. Um, but the fact that he sort of broke that with Natalie trying to find, uh, a human connection, right?

[00:08:26] Like that's kind of what it seemed like. Um, like, Hey, if anybody could relate to me, it's gotta be you. Right. But there's really no indication other than, uh, you know, the fact that she's just, you know, I don't know. She's given no indication that she's someone you could trust to be, uh, to be human. Cause she always is just a sounding board for, for the board, it seems, but he did try to take that moment. And so it's, it looks like he's searching for humanity.

[00:08:51] And I wonder if that, if these are little, uh, clues that maybe at some point this, this will break, right? I mean, he's doing the, the, like to, to pull the reins, so to speak is, I mean, it's, it doesn't, it feels less strategic and more of lashing out. So I'm wondering, I'm wondering if there's going to come a point where he will be, uh, uh, an ally. I don't know. Maybe that's, maybe that's too hot to take or, or. I think, I think I've been on this one for a while. I like this.

[00:09:22] I think that there is a, they're trying to do something different with Milchik this season. And I think by the end of this season or early next, he will be disillusioned enough with the organization that he'll, he'll do something that is a little bit, uh, counterproductive to their, their end, their, their, their great agenda. Yeah.

[00:09:51] Maybe he's a natural at that. He, he's constantly undermining their agenda accidentally. Yeah. I mean, and maybe, maybe less so because he, he feels empathy for these, these, these, uh, Well, he says he's not Ms. Cobell in his review. That's true. I mean, he's still pretty horrible. I mean, I don't, I mean, it'll take a lot for him to convert. I think. Yeah. I don't know if that convert, convert to their side.

[00:10:17] Maybe not, but like to convert anti-lumen, I think that could, that could work. Yeah. I can see that going quicker. Well, let's go deeper into Milchik lore later. David, give us your hot take. I'm really upset at this episode because I was very excited to see Ms. Wong play her theremin. Are you and Mark going to have a whole, one for the theremin now? I'm upset. Half of a note. Yeah.

[00:10:45] It was really, she got going and I was like, oh, and then Milchik cut her off and I was just pissed. Anyway, the episode I thought was really interesting because it's, there wasn't a lot of action, but a lot happened in this episode. And I noticed there's a whole bunch of contextual questions that were answered. Some of it was, you know, the, the Lumen attitude towards Ines, you know, but at the same time that asked another question is what is their purpose in true nature?

[00:11:15] But anyway, we learned that Bert got fired, not Irv, but Bert. We learned that reintegration is a process, not a single, um, uh, a single treatment. We learned about the Ortbo logistics. You know, it was a weekend thing and they, it was planned and managed. Um, we learned that Keir Egan had ether factories. I thought that was an interesting line. I was like, wait a minute, what? And then we, you know, again, you know, the, the, the importance, I think the Ortbo was

[00:11:43] all about, you know, giving Mark, uh, an engagement with Hellier so that he could finish this thing, which is the greatest moment in, is going to be the greatest moment in human history. So we got all of these answers, but it also set up more questions. So it was for a mid season episode. It did a nice job of wrapping up the first part of the season in some ways, and yet setting this up for the backside. Yeah. I think. Yeah.

[00:12:10] And it answered the, it answered the Bert following Irv thing too, right? Yes, it did. Yeah. That way we know we're like, okay. Cause we're like, well, what's it, what was their conversation? Like, okay. It sort of filled that blank and really well. Yep. They just have such great chemistry together, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you're definitely right about the no action, but I think that's, this episode has tons of conflict. Yes. Yeah. You know, I think toward the beginning of the season where they, ah, the gang's back together. This is great.

[00:12:38] And then it's sort of like, ah, they're kind of at odds, you know? I mean, both Miss Wong and Dylan throw punches. Yeah. Mark is not really into Hellier as much. Yeah. He doesn't know if he can trust, you know, Dylan's. He's disillusioned. Uh, he's, he's off on his own program now, even Rickon, uh, and Devin seem to be at odds. Yep.

[00:13:05] Um, Mark and Devin are higher ups, the higher ups, uh, Lumen, they, they, they do not, they're not playing well in the same sandbox. So there's a ton of conflict here and you almost feel like if this, if our, if our protagonists are going to get anywhere, they're going to have to join forces. And at this point, you know, Irv isn't even on the floor anymore. Uh, but you did get a little promise of maybe Bert and Irv back together.

[00:13:34] So there was a little bit of sugar happening. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Like a little bit of sugar with, with the usual salt. With the salt. Yeah. And that's where I was saying that this episode is subtle because, um, it does, it sets up a lot of tension and, uh, it answers questions. It sets up tension and, uh, and sets it up. We're at the halfway point. Right. And I really feel like this one did a lot to sort of catapult the next half. I think. Exactly.

[00:14:00] And I think it's a necessary episode after one that was so like, so deep into a place we didn't think we were going to go. Um, and with the result, we didn't really feel like, like, how does this complicate things? And so I think this one does a really good job. Again, pacing is so key on this episode or this show entirely. And this one was probably the most accelerated episode in a while and still super effective to, uh, to, to, to not resolve a bunch, uh, to leave you in a, in a place of tension

[00:14:28] in a different way than like when Irv like is getting, you know, basically eliminated. Like that's a huge tension moment. Right. But in this case, it's just like, okay, we get the, the final shot of like, okay, reintegration glimpse. But, but like you said, all those different conflicts is creating a level of tension that none of it got resolved and it's all just there. And I, that was, I find myself very edgy on this episode. It's almost like the show is treating us like adults. I know, right?

[00:14:54] Uh, a quick, um, a few quick call outs on a pro on production side stuff. The sound design again is, is excellent. There's like a scene I'll call out a little bit later with it. There wasn't anything extraordinary in this one, but just the background sounds are, are so good. I have to call out the lighting there. There, the use of silhouettes, the use of Rembrandt lighting. There was a scene of Milchick and Mark in the elevator where Milchick crosses a line literally

[00:15:23] and conversationally when he steps into Mark. So there's a, a panel split in the elevator and the two of them are facing off. And then Milchick steps over that line to deliver the line about Hallie, uh, Helena Egan. Uh, anyway, just, just incredible cinematography. Another thing going on is the camera techniques. We get a whole segment here of when Helena comes down in the elevator in and becomes Hellie.

[00:15:51] We immediately start in with a shaky cam technique and we follow her through the hallway. And then the meeting with MDR, with Milchick, that's all shaky. That's all handheld cam. In addition to that, in that same scene in terms of sound design. Yeah. If you listen, it sounds like a ticking clock. Hmm. Yeah. And then later on we bring that theme back because what does Rick and say is like the clock on the wall. Oh, nice one. Oh, good. Is there and it should make you happy. Yeah.

[00:16:21] It's not your slave. It's, you know, whatever. And so I like the sound design on that in that particular scene. Good call. Uh, another thing which I think they might've been doing with the shaky cam is if you're really zoomed in, your, those small movements will become exaggerated. So I think they were using some long zooms, uh, with some of those closeups over the shoulder shots and stuff like that. Then there was another one where they're going into their tri station, you know, their tri

[00:16:49] workstation and they use this counter circling technique. So as the actors are moving one direction, the camera move is moving opposite to them. And it creates this incredible dynamic of, of energy and tension. And then they flipped to this overhead shot to show us the, the three setup, which is, it was just exquisite. And then there's another one where the camera is doing a dolly move, moving forward down the hallway while Wong and Milchick are walking towards us on the camera, which mirrors the

[00:17:16] whole rack zoom, uh, thing what they do in the elevator. And so it's just the technique. And then the Rembrandt lighting, I, it's just a phenomenal. And then the last thing I'll call out from the production side is there's a scene of Mark and Heli in the bathroom and she's in frame twice, once in the mirror and then once herself. And then Mark's right in the middle and it was like, boom, right? Is that Heli or Helena?

[00:17:45] And Mark is in the middle and he doesn't know. An absolutely perfect way to do story, visual storytelling that really emphasizes the point of the whole innie outie conflict and dynamic. And then there was another reflection scene in the boardroom when Helena is there. No, I'm sorry. Is it, uh, it was when, uh, yeah, no, it was, was it Helena? Yeah. Yeah. I think it was with Helena. Yeah, yeah, that's right. No, no, or is it Milchick? There's anyway, there's a reflection on the ceiling and then there's a reflection on the wall and

[00:18:13] there's the windows on the outside and then there's a reflection on the table. So we get vertical reflection as well as a horizontal reflection. Super great. And then the last thing I'll, I'll mention just from a topical standpoint, which is, I thought was really interesting. And Steve, you mentioned this briefly, which is how the show brushes past this question of race in the American workplace with this conversation with Milchick and Natalie or Nat, as I like to call her.

[00:18:41] And I just think it's such an interesting thing that they're bringing that topic in around everything else. And then having this conversation with these two black actors who are in this workplace and, and all of that. So I don't know what's going on there, but like that's twice now that they've brought that topic in to the forefront. Yeah. And I just did not expect that with that, with, with this show.

[00:19:04] And so it just adds just another layer of richness that I think is, is, and I, again, going back to some of the things we've talked about with the history of race and different cults and religions. I think it's very, you know, very appropriate to, to sort of tackle that. Cause this does seem like the show is tackling a lot of, of whether it's, you know, like I said, whether we're talking cults, whether we're talking, you know, religions, whether we're talking some sort of secret societies.

[00:19:28] I mean, there's something, there's something to be said for all these elements and then, and they're not leaving any of those details like unchecked. Yeah. And it's a tricky topic to address, you know, from the production standpoint and then to do it in this really subtle way, but not subtle, but not subtle. I don't know how to describe it. No, exactly. It's, it's, it's, it's, again, it's like going back to that same statement. We're being treated like adults.

[00:19:57] Yeah. It's like, you're, you, you get it. Right. I mean, it's like, and so almost whenever the show sometimes does explain something, I'm like, ah, you didn't have to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I see, I see these tick tocks going around where somebody will do like your friend who doesn't usually watch this kind of TV watching severance guys. I don't think they remember their home life when they're at work.

[00:20:17] Like, like we are watching the show at, at a quite, quite a dissecting level. So we've got a lot to get through today. Why don't we go to a break? And when we get back, we'll get right into the episode. Nicole, did you ever notice how the sign by Ace of Bass has really strange key changes? I did not, Mark. I'm a real person.

[00:20:44] Well, let me tell you about it. I'll let you talk about neuroscience gobbledygook. Yes. I thought you'd never ask. This is the Nevermind the Music Podcast. Where one psychologist. And one musician. Deep dive into the songs you love. So you don't have to. And there's plenty of time to get off topic. From semi-charmed life to the way you move. And who could forget the crossroads? Is it the crossroads or the crossroads? Save it for the episode, Mark. Listen to Nevermind the Music. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:21:14] John has had to step away briefly. I was going to make up some sort of joke. Anybody got a good joke to excuse John's absence? He has to tend to his calamitous ortbo. So let's start with the cold open. And this issue of the exports haul.

[00:21:35] And of course, there's been a lot of conversation in the cultural conversation about the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. And when that is going to make its appearance. And we got it here. So Steve or Anthony, what did you guys make of this scene? Wonderfully shot in terms of not wanting to reveal the face of the actor. Right.

[00:22:01] And it made me think, is this someone I'm going to know? In terms of, is this a famous actor? Or I was thinking, is this someone who I might recognize from the outside world? Right. Who has any personality? So I love that. Dentistry? Dentistry? Yeah. What are we doing with dentistry?

[00:22:31] In case you wanted another level of torture, they're definitely bringing that in. You know, I mentioned this before, but I heard an interview with Stiller and he was asked directly, isn't this Gordon Lightfoot song, Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, isn't it a meta narrative for the show? Mm-hmm.

[00:23:01] And Stiller was like, you know, he's like, it wasn't like a, like, no, we just like, I just like that song. It was sort of like he hemmed and hawed and gave a non-answer. Mm-hmm. So I've been kind of keeping my eye out for themes that would connect to that.

[00:23:19] And I haven't, honestly, I haven't found many that help me understand the show better besides the fact that, you know, people give their lives for the paycheck. Mm-hmm. Which is a theme in that song. But anyway, I quite liked that. Of course, that to me, that it's one of the major mystery boxes that I'm hoping we'll learn more about by the end of this season.

[00:23:48] You know, I think Ragabi is definitely a gatekeeper to one of the main mystery boxes. Like, Ragabi could just tell Mark everything she knows. Right. And we could have that on scene. But of course, maybe that ruins too much. And then in addition to that, you know, certainly Irv knew how to get down to the exports hall. Because he's got instructions on that note that Dylan finds.

[00:24:16] Yeah, but he gets kicked off the floor before that happens. He gets, you know, he has to go on his extended- Extended cruise voyage. Cruise voyage. All right. So, anyway, they're guarding the mystery boxes pretty well. And like I said, I'm getting a little impatient, but I'm enjoying the ride. This is like the second mystery man that we've had.

[00:24:45] I don't know it's the same guy that Mark, that we saw over Mark's shoulder in the hallway in episode one. But this is the second time that we've had a intentionally hidden face. Obscured face, yeah. Obscured face, yeah. And I don't know if either of you read from, with Felicia and then the other woman that was there.

[00:25:12] I couldn't tell if they, they were obviously being deferential to this guy. But were they, I almost read like they were a little bit afraid of him. Yeah, I caught, they were at least, at minimum they seemed anxious. Like, it seems like when he comes up to do his thing, it's, it's never good. Right? So what we know about this guy, the only thing we know about him is that he's now the guy that does the thing in lieu of them going to, to it themselves.

[00:25:41] Which also, so, you know, rewatching, I mean, you know, that's obviously the, the, the elevator to the testing floor. And, but they don't refer to it as that. Only, uh, uh, Cobell and, um, Milchak have referred to it that way, if I recall correctly, right? Yeah. Because they, because, uh, Cobell says send her back down to the testing floor. Right.

[00:26:06] And that, and Milchak walks, walks, uh, Ms. Casey to that, uh, the hallway where she, you know, that's when she like sheds a tear. And he's just, and she, what did I forget what she said in the, in the first season. Some, she turns around and she says something. She's like, am I happy out there? Of course. And then, uh, and then she goes down, uh, the, the elevator, uh, arrow lights up to give us the indication that that's, that's the, uh, that's what, uh, Irving has been painting.

[00:26:33] Um, so the, the Felicia is an interesting character because I don't know how much she knows versus how much she's telling. Um, it seems like she has, or at least, uh, they, they have some, um, some other knowledge, you know, that they have access to this, to this area. But again, what they can do with memories and whatnot, we're not really sure.

[00:26:56] So it's, uh, uh, but I, I don't think you, if he's taking those tools to the testing floor, which is also odd, why don't you just keep your tools at the testing floor? But I mean, I don't know. It's a very, very, uh, odd transaction that takes place. Um, and the casual nature of his doing his job with the whistling anytime somebody is whistling, they are typically at ease and or menacing.

[00:27:20] And, uh, and so this whole, uh, obscured face with the whistling and then their reaction to it, you getting the sense, all right, he's, he's, this has to do with testing somehow. And, um, again, these are not utensils that are there to test your reflexes. Uh, so it's, it's just adds more, uh, attention to, to, I mean, it's crazy how that's how this episode starts, right?

[00:27:46] You've theoretically, this episode, uh, could be bookended by Ms. Casey, right? I mean, he could be dealing with her on the testing floor in the beginning and then we get a glimpse of her, uh, you know, during the reintegration. So it's kind of, I like that. Uh, I mean, this whole Ms. Casey thing is, is like the ultimate mystery box, right? Like, cause I love how, you know, Mark's the show does a really good job of asking our questions in the show and, um, then not answering them intentionally.

[00:28:14] Like, you know, Mark's like, are they hurting her? And then, you know, I don't know. Like, we're all like, I mean, I'm like, well, I kind of have an idea that, that those little, uh, pokey things that they got might hurt. Um, it makes me think the experts hall makes me think of, okay, we're, we're, we're taking a product from one location internally. And then exporting it, taking it out somewhere else.

[00:28:41] And then we see in that scene, there are those little card things. There are, uh, jugs of, uh, I don't know, sanitizer or soap. And then there's all those cabinets. So, um, you know, what is exporting? And then that means to exit a space, right? To leave a space with or without tariffs. And, um, you know, what, uh, what is going out into the world from in here and for what purpose?

[00:29:11] You know, I can see the Eagans being very, um, hypochondriac-ish kind of thing, right? You know, their cleanliness and the things that they need. So, you know. They started off with making topical salves. So, I mean. Yeah, exactly. So, but, so that's the thing, right? They see, they, they, like, if they don't see it as a testing floor, they see it only as an export. So, like, they would take things down there all the time, right? Like, that was their thing. So, they would probably be like, oh, we're exporting the sanitizer now. So, we're going to go take it down the hallway.

[00:29:37] And then, which may have actually been for that testing floor, right? They were just bringing more supplies down for testing. But then something changed. And like, you know, we, we're, maybe their tests increased in, um, you know, we don't need people seeing what we're doing or knowing what we're getting. So, they're like, okay, now we're going to just have this guy handle it. So, that's, that's how I sort of read this is that they still see it as an exports hall. But then, for some reason, they are not allowed to go down there anymore. They have somebody else that does it. They just see it as bureaucracy.

[00:30:06] But from a Lumen perspective, it's like, all right, we're upping the ante. They're not just bringing down, down sanitizers and things of that nature. We're going to bring down, you know, actual tools of dissection or whatever it might be. Because, again, the concept of testing floor and export hall, they could, it could mean something else, right? I mean, they could, they actually could be synonymous in a weird way. Like, the testing that they're doing actually is causing some level of export.

[00:30:36] But that's not how they're going to word it for the, uh, for the innings. John, did you have a pleasant extended cruise voyage? My son projectile vomited and then jumped into it and rolled around in it. And I just need everyone to know that. I privately messaged you, but I figured it was entertaining enough for the world to know. Wow. I'm glad you shared that detail with us. Thank you. He's two years old. This guy's right up my alley. I like this guy a lot. He's two years old. He's feeling fine now. You know, that's just what small kids do.

[00:31:04] They're just like, I think, I think the world needs some of me in it. If it makes you feel any better. I recently went to Vegas with my 28 year old son and we had a similar experience. Okay. Last note about this guy. He had a black key card. When he, uh, when he went into the elevator. So. So let's go on to Helly's return because I don't feel like figuring out where you all were at in that last discussion.

[00:31:33] Helly's return after the board decides they can't take further risks without a Helena. Helly R returns to the severed floor. Irving has been fired, leaving Mark and Dylan suspicious of Helly's identity. Rainy Mark seems to have given up on having autonomy against the all powerful Lumen. And Helly tells him to stop being a dick. Mark insists on continuing work.

[00:31:56] I like when she first comes out of the elevator, or I guess when she first like registers her any persona. She hunches a little bit. It sort of gives you a sense of like, she's almost feral in that moment. Like, like a scared animal. What's going to happen next? Uh, and. That is certainly not something Helena would do.

[00:32:21] So the, the, I was going to mention that, that the acting that Britt Lauer does is so amazing. Her physical performance of being Helena and then converting to Helly. And it's that hunched over. And when you hunch over, one of the things that you're doing is you're protecting your core, right? You're protecting your gut a little bit. And then she's walking forward with this shoulder thing with her fists balled up. Right? So there's a lot of tension there. She is very uncomfortable.

[00:32:51] And her, her eyes are sort of darting around, like, you know, surveying for, you know, what is some danger. And then of course, she's the, the last thing she expects is waiting for her in Miss Wong. Well, keep in mind that, that her last experience was getting pulled out of water being drowned. And then all of a sudden now she's in an elevator. Well, somebody, somebody edited the last season experience with that.

[00:33:18] So she got tackled by Natalie, immediately wakes up to be drowned. And then is in the elevator facing a child. Yeah. You know, Miss Wong, I don't know, maybe this is the design of it, but you know, you, you feel a little bit, um, you, you might feel weirded out that it's a child, but you don't feel threatened. Hmm. I don't know. Physically.

[00:33:45] Unless they're projectile vomiting and they're running to you for a hug. No, but I guess I was just thinking like, if it was me and I, and I went down to the floor and there's some point, someone I never met before. I would immediately feel threatened. Like, Oh no. What, who are you? And what are you going to do to me? But if the, if it's a child, I'm a little bit weirded out, but I'm not like. I mean, I'm a little bit. I can take them. Yeah. Right. You know, this, at least this person is going to menace me.

[00:34:15] Even though there's that menacing painting in the background of miss Wong. Yeah. Uh, I mean, it's so it's psychologically is it's, it's, it's horrible. But, um, I don't know. Maybe she's designed to be disarming. You know, we had, um, we had, uh, an email come in from Karen E and for the emails. Now, I think I'm going to be like pulling relevant parts from them. There is a point that Karen E comes up with, which is Mark was essentially raped by Helena. Yeah.

[00:34:45] And he's not happy about that. Helena almost died. So she's not happy about that. Can this relationship even be healed between Heli R and Mark? Like Mark, Mark is, is like partly not him. He's two people now in one. He's becoming two people in one. And then you have Heli who is, he hasn't even seen her in however many days. He doesn't know how she feels. He doesn't know how she'll react to finding out that they had a kiss.

[00:35:15] They shared a kiss like just before the overtime went. Yeah. Yeah. She's had a hell of a 24 hours. Right. Well, and Mark and Mark is exhibiting all the, I mean, like he's, he's got, he's fresh off finding out that, you know, and I do, I think rape is an appropriate term in this case because it was non-consensual. He was with, he had, he had his first sexual experience with essentially a stranger. He feels manipulated.

[00:35:42] He feels like he knew, like she knew what she was doing. So he can't, he sees the perpetrator's face now, whether, whether it's somebody else or not, it's, it's impossible to shake that. Right. I mean, he can't, there is no, there's no therapy or there's not even wellness sessions anymore in there. Right. So he just goes from, from that experience to learning about this is not who I thought it was to, okay, well now I'm supposed to just go right back into this.

[00:36:11] Um, and he feels completely defeated because his whole life has been rock. He's like, look, one of my, one of my coworkers, uh, has been essentially killed. And so it was like, you know what? They got me. I'm in, now he's a prisoner. Like, and he, he recognizes it as such. Right. So it's like, look, I can, you know, I'll, I'll have a bad attitude. I'll challenge, um, you know, Milchuk in the, uh, in the elevator because it's all I can do. And I think he feels like he has probably some outie armor, right? Like there's probably some element of like, well.

[00:36:40] Well, the, anything they do to me would be harmed to my outie. And it's like, and so, you know, kind of, it's sort of self-defeatist in a certain way. He doesn't quite understand that he's having, um, what this coughs are, these little episodes are. Right. So, uh, it's, it's, I, I find that his response and his interaction with Heli to be, to be very convincing and very off the end. And it is, it's a tension that I don't see how it resolves. I wonder, I agree with everything you're saying.

[00:37:09] I wonder if we need a different word rather than rape. I'm just thinking, or, or maybe there's a level to this that we need to acknowledge that it, those two people in that space, um, that there was no force. Right. Applied. It was consensual. It was deceptive.

[00:37:31] Um, well, that also goes down to a definition of rape because I, man, this is going to go deeper than I wanted to go on this podcast, but, but, you know, like, I think that we've actually moved past requiring force to be part of rape. I think, um, no, no, no, no. I think that needs to be informed. I think that we just need to qualify this. He came to her tent. He came to somebody's tent. He came to the different person's tent. He, he went in there with, I get it. I've been watching the show too.

[00:38:01] Yeah. I get that. I just feel like, move on. No, no, I'm just saying that, uh, we might need like five different words for non-consensual sex. So you're like Milchak. You want more vocabulary. I want big words. I want, I want big words. Certainly I, I, I'm guilty of using too many big words.

[00:38:25] I would like there to be some kind of acknowledgement that the force applied in this particular moment is different than what you normally think of when you think of rape. It was coercion rather than physical force. Was it coercion? Which is still sexual assault is all I'm saying. So it's, it's a degree of sexual assault here. I don't think we need to like, look, this is, there's not going to be a criminal trial on this.

[00:38:52] I don't think we need to come to a definitive answer on this, but I think we can agree. It was a non-consensual and icky. I get it. I get it. I'm just, I just want to call out that there's a difference between what we all normally think of as this, a forceful encounter like this and what we saw on this screen. And it's part, partially this show is so interesting and so unique and really kind of taking the sci-fi concept and extending it out.

[00:39:21] It's almost, it's almost bringing us to a number of different extremes that maybe we haven't thought of before. So anyway, kudos to the show for, for complicating this. It's, it's a, it's a tricky and delicate topic. Yeah. I think that, I think, I think we should be having more conversations like this. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:45] And, and I hope that they do address this at some point because as of now, it's just been like, you know, the onus has been put on Mark. Like you fucked her out. That's what, that's what Milchick has done with this. It's like, you are the operative. He's a victim blamer, Milchick. Which is really interesting because he, cause he calls out Helena's like standing and, and how, and, but like he, but he, but still portrays her as the victim. Right.

[00:40:13] Like, so that's so manipulative that what he does to Mark in that situation, because it's like, how dare you, you, you don't get to do like, he's basically, he's like gaslighting him. Right. Like you don't get to be this way because look at what you did to, he's like, like, and Mark's like, I didn't know who that was. I mean, I'm just now finding God, right? Right. Right. Exactly.

[00:40:33] No, there's certainly, he's certainly been violated and, and some trust has been breached and he's been deceived and this, this conversation between he and Milchick, you know, keep, keep in mind the, these, these innies are being portrayed very childlike. So there's another element. There's another level of the ickiness for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Milchick, he's going to have to do a lot.

[00:41:00] And Helena even says she sees them as animals and she goes in there and I mean, like she basically now reveals in that, in that statement that, I mean, that's, that's ultimate ick, right? I mean, she, she knew full well, she doesn't even see this as, as a person technically. Yeah. But yet she, her, Helena was jealous of Heliar in some ways. Yeah. Wasn't she? She, look, she is more complicated than she's letting on here.

[00:41:25] I think right now she is having a gut visceral reaction to the fact that she was almost drowned by one of them. Right. And that's fair. And so she's like, they're all terrible. But before that, I think she was starting to see them as human. And her innie tried to kill her and maim her. Yeah. So she has no respect for her.

[00:41:47] So this, this internal conflict, these two identities in the same body who are, one of them is literally willing to harm themselves very seriously to get back at the other. Yeah. I wonder too, when, yeah, like to, to your point about Helena, you know, kind of reacting and calling them animals because of what just happened. I mean, there, there could be an element to it where she's trying to also sell the reason to get back. Maybe she does want to go back. She's like, look, she feels like she's in danger from her own innie.

[00:42:16] And, you know, maybe there was something about her little VR experience that she actually enjoyed. Right. I mean, so it's, it's, it is complicated and it is kind of unknown exactly what her feelings are because we see her whenever she's around people. She's very strong and she's very cold, but we saw a different version of her when she was by herself watching the kiss over and over again. Exactly. Now you could, you could look at that.

[00:42:44] You could read it and say, oh, she's studying for her, for her going back in and what she needs to do to try to convince Marks as she keeps on watching it. But I didn't necessarily read it that way. And I felt like because of so much face acting that's going on is that I feel like Britt Lauer really captured a, not just a studying, but almost a longing when she was looking at those clips.

[00:43:08] But that, again, that, that's part of what makes, again, these are, these are detailed mysteries with like, these don't necessarily have to be solved, but there's just so many of these questions that it's like, it's, it's like, it's like watching the news right now. It's like, I'm getting bombarded with so many things. I don't even know what to, what to be worried about. Well, don't worry. The medical team says that your humor, your tempers will be rebalanced quickly, Steve. Oh, thank goodness. You just need an Orkbo in red, white, and blue land. An obligement session.

[00:43:35] So, so I read 1984 and I finished it last night for the first time. And it really had me thinking about Mark a lot differently. And I, I wanted to sort of talk about Mark's being a dick and being, being dismissive and sort of bowing down to the authoritarianism. And there's this idea in 1984, I don't want to spoil it entirely, but I am going to get a little bit into spoilers. So if you want to, if you want to skip forward a little bit, go ahead.

[00:44:03] But this idea of like, we don't, we don't want to defeat you. We don't want to have you be a martyr. We need you to be a true believer. Like we, we don't want you to do this out of hatred. We want you to actually love big brother. We want you to love the fact that you're doing everything for this authoritarian regime. And I feel like that's where they're at with Mark. Like they want him to be doing cold Harbor out of love. And so they're trying to like give him the perks.

[00:44:32] And that's, at least that's what Milchik has been doing. This idea of like, I'm going to make you love Lumen so that you do your work. Well, and I think that Ortbo was all designed to help motivate Mark. Because they say he won't work unless he has, quote unquote, has Hellyar. Right. And he had it. Well, interestingly, he goes in and, you know, completes four more percent in this episode.

[00:45:03] Which, you know, they, the motivation might just simply be like, I'm just going to, I'm just going to, I'm going to hate Refine right now. That's what I'm going to do. Fair enough. All right, let's get on to the funeral. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Milchik informs the team that Helena, Helena, before I get another negative review about saying Helena. Milchik informs, you know, you all, you all have too much time on your hands if you're concerned about the emphasis on the wrong syllable, as they say.

[00:45:33] Look, look, Helena and Mork, they had a relationship. Milchik informs the team that Helena Egan was being an undercover boss. An Irving misunderstood, leading to the attempted drowning and eventual termination of his employment. He leads the innings to MDR, where there is now a work try station. Dylan demands a funeral where he delivers eulogy before they eat a watermelon Irv.

[00:45:59] After everyone else leaves, Dylan looks behind the hang in there poster and finds a note from Irv containing directions to the exports hall. Signed from dad. Oh, that really got me. I put a screenshot of the note in our Discord, in our MDR macro theory refinement channel. It's a lot of lefts and rights and lefts and right. Contra instructions.

[00:46:26] Are we ever going to see Lumen's kitchen? Because the chefs in there just must be a delight. I want like a spinoff show that just, it's like a cooking show, just all melons and eggs. That's right. David's implication that the guy in the beginning was actually just going to get all the things to carve the watermelon. Yes, exactly. I saw your hand motion. I love the idea that it's really not that sinister.

[00:46:55] It was just like they anticipated the need of a fruit head. Well, what happens is, you know, they ask for an impromptu funeral. Milchik gets on the horn, says, we're going to need a funeral kit as if they have. Yeah, that's a thing. They've got a whole company strategy for like. And they all have mugs in case they die. Exactly. And there's some dude in a kitchen somewhere with the Malaysian watermelon who's just like, just waiting.

[00:47:25] Like, oh, all right, good. I get to use my Malaysian watermelon before it rots. And I'm ready to carve an earth face. Incredible. I don't have much to add on the funeral. Other than Miss Wong throws a serious elbow at Milchik here. And then we get another elbow from Dylan later.

[00:47:50] And so that goes to your point, Anthony, about the dramatic tension that they're putting characters into some conflict. And so when she asks her question, you know, don't you have your review today? That was a sharp, sharp elbow. Oh, for sure. And it makes me think this is not, this is a human child that I'm looking at. There's no doubt about that. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:48:16] It does not feel like this, like the amount of shade, the subtlety of that conversation tells me this person has lived a life. Mm-hmm. This is not, even if you're a genius child, there's a certain level of shade you can throw, like passive aggressive. Middle schoolers are the worst.

[00:48:43] Yeah, but this is not middle, like, yes, that's true. But it kind of feels like this is someone who's gone through middle school and high school and college and has been in the workforce for 20 years, and she just knows how to sneak that little barb in. It's a perfect corporate. With subtle shade. I don't, I kind of feel like there's no way that this person can have a child's mind. Hmm.

[00:49:11] Because that is, that is a kind of comment that you could make in a workplace that's not going to get you in trouble with HR. Whereas maybe a teenager might be a little bit more obtuse, right? Not, not as subtle with that, that feedback. But he does treat her like a child on the way out of the funeral, right? I mean, it's less superior to inferior and more, you know, you'll speak when spoken to kind of. Yeah, he says, what does he say?

[00:49:41] You can play your song for me later. That is certainly something you would say to a child. And then he says, and then he answers like a question that was not asked. Yes. And then he just keeps walking. Which I have done as a parent. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I got a, I got a high five thumbs up from my wife because I had pointed out the hang in their poster. And I'm like, oh yeah. I'm like, I remembered it from the, as soon as they walked in, I'm like, oh, there's a hang in their poster. And I remember that.

[00:50:08] And so I was, and I'm like, oh, there's something behind it. So I was, I was nice. I felt like I was. And Irv's head is positioned to look at the poster. Right. And Dylan does a, oh, what are you looking at? Oh, you're looking at me hanging there, holding the overtime contingency switches. I thought it was interesting that Dylan, he feels wounded. You know, Mark is not treating this like a funeral.

[00:50:35] And it really brings us back to this question. And different people have different views in this show. Is dismissal tantamount to death? Mm-hmm. And I think sometimes Milchick says it is, sometimes Milchick says it isn't. You can't really trust Milchick, right? Certainly Irv thought that that was the case when Bert was taken off the floor.

[00:51:05] And certainly Dylan thinks that is the case now that Irv is off the floor. Mark S. has a different view on this. He didn't die. He's just somewhere else. And we should not be treating this as a funeral. And I gotta say, I side with Mark S. on this one. I do not think that they should treat dismissal as death. Well, but that's just all they know, right?

[00:51:35] I mean, that's the thing is these guys, this is all they understand. They know that they live and die at their Audi or Lumens win. Mark S. and Dylan G. have had the same sort of corporate experience, and they've come to two different conclusions on this. Well, I don't know. I don't know that I think you're reading Mark S. differently than I am in this scenario.

[00:51:58] I see Mark S. as fresh off his interaction with Hellie or Helena. I read him as feeling very defeated and not being able to trust. And then being just like, you know what? They're gonna... I believe he believes, well, Petey is dead to me. He's dead in my life. Irving is now dead in my life. He's experienced...

[00:52:27] So his, like I said, his veil of ignorance is being lifted at a higher clip. And so his reaction is of defeatist. It's like, so it's like, look, we're not in control. So yeah, our Audis are fine, whatever. We don't even... So he's kind of falling into the same narrative. Like, we don't really exist, so who cares? Now that's different. I feel like he is saying, look, the Audi lives on. What he's saying is, we're already dead.

[00:52:53] I feel like that's a defeatist response, not a response of logic. Like, hey, you know what? It's all right because our Audi lives on. He knows that his consciousness is more or less manufactured at the whims of somebody else. So when he says, oh, my Audi lives, I think what he's saying is, we're already in hell. We're dead. So whether we live or die in our own minds doesn't matter. Nothing matters. Lumen's in control.

[00:53:20] So I read that as, yeah, he recognizes it, but not recognizes it in a sense of like, okay, well, now I understand how life works. I think it's like... No, he's cynical. He thinks they treat us like cogs in a machine. That's kind of what we are. They have all the power. There's no use resisting. And that's a very defeatist way to look at it. And maybe it's justified given his life experience.

[00:53:48] I'm just noting that there are different characters in the show that have come to a different view on how they should read, you know, permanent dismissal. And they were introduced to the concept of death in the Ortbo. Yeah. And did that introduction of death have one intended... Was there an intention behind that, that they were trying to lead them to a conclusion? But now, given all that that's gone on, that now is...

[00:54:20] It's working counter to what Lumen might have wanted to intend with that. Because now that they've seen death, they have a... And now Irv is gone. And that is as to a death for them because that person is no longer in their space. I don't wonder if there's some sort of unintended consequence that's going to play out from that. The only thing they learned at the Ortbo was keep your hands off your ding-dong if you don't want to die.

[00:54:48] Let's talk about somebody else who may be coming to a point of resistance. Milchik, he's under pressure. While he's prepping the mournful signage, Miss Wong tells Milchik his funeral is a bad idea and notes his impending performance review. Before the review, Milchik approaches Natalie about the paintings but doesn't get much of a response. At the review, which lasts more than four hours, Milchik is reprimanded for the calamitous Ortbo on top of his paper-clipping transgressions.

[00:55:19] He is told to go back to basics and agrees to tighten the leash. Can I just say, the comedy of, if it's more than four hours, we'll provide a lunch menu. Well, I hope that won't be necessary. Here is the lunch menu. Amazing. Yeah, that was great. He doesn't even look at it. He just checks something random. He's like, my day is going to be bad anyway. Just give me a salad. I just am going to note that I'm really enjoying Mr. Drummond's bangs.

[00:55:50] Like, I saw him in another show recently, and I think he's an Icelandic actor. And so he's, number one, doing a really great sort of, I don't know, deep American voice. But then to have those bangs at the same time, it totally belies the character. Like, he's supposed to be menacing, and I'm just looking at his hair.

[00:56:20] I hear what you're saying. I have not noticed his bangs, and now I'm going to go back and- Well, now that's all you're going to look at. That's all I'm going to look at. I can't look at his frolic tattoo. I can't look at anything else. I love that he, of all people, has the frolic tattoo. Yeah, right? Maybe the least embodied of frolic ever. This episode was a lot funnier than the last one, which was kind of nice. I mean, there's a lot of really good lines. I mean, like going to the eulogy.

[00:56:50] I mean, the eulogy was amazing. Dylan showing the child not really understanding how swears work. I mean, he would have been perfectly justified if you told me to suck my own fuck. Yeah, but now that he said that, I feel like I'm going to say that a lot. Oh, well, for sure. But it's just so funny the way one put that in a eulogy.

[00:57:18] I don't know if it's being childlike or toner poisoning that's causing him to curse like that, but it's something. All I know is if Anthony, I kind of hope you die before I do, because then I got your eulogy cued. Nice. Steve, have you ever gotten a performance review so well professionally produced? I'll be honest with you, man. I'm like, that was such a – the font choice and the size, everything was like, man, that was a production.

[00:57:44] I mean, as far as – I mean, usually the notes are printed out, but this is suitable for framing. Yeah, there was a – the graphics team, they did a full layout on this in Illustrator and Photoshop. And I love the way that it said Calamitous Orkbo in, like, giant letters.

[00:58:04] I've got something serious to talk about, and that is that we've learned that it is the Lumen position, voiced by Mr. Drummond, that whatever Cold Harbor is, it's going to bring about one of the greatest moments in the history of the planet. Yep. All right? So that's his view.

[00:58:32] Everyone in the room tacitly agrees. And yet, this is also the same guy who's, like, making an issue of whether paperclips are put on the right way. He studied Rudy Giuliani's broken windows policy. And he takes that seriously. I suppose.

[00:58:52] But I guess I'm thinking, like, if this guy cares that much about paperclips, should I trust his view on this great moment in the history of the planet? But if I – let's say – let's just give the benefit of the doubt. Let's say it is some kind of great scientific breakthrough. Does that help – does that help us theorycraft at all?

[00:59:22] I read some corporate concepts in there with the paperclips, maybe even more so than how that relates to other hyperbole. Only because I think what it says is that regardless of what you're – if you had no calamitous orcmo and you were just having your performance review, Lumenegs, like, that's kind of their thing, right?

[00:59:49] Like, they're going to point out every – like, what they're saying is we look at every detail. Every single thing you do is under scrutiny. And we are going to call it out. Now, paperclips may not cause a four-plus-hour performance review, but it's – your performance review is going to have things to that level. This is the level in which you should be performing. Now, there's a calamitous orcmo in there. That's why you're going to have to pick lunch because we're going to be here to talk about that, right?

[01:00:19] So, it's – I think it shows two things, right? Like, hey, we're – like, most of the time, if you were going to have a performance review where you had something really horrible happen, that's going to be the thing, right? You would probably have that separate from a performance review. That would be a, we need to talk about this now. But this gets lumped into it, and we get a glimpse of what they already are willing to discuss. And that may have already been, you know, already drawn up and, you know, prior to the orcmo. So, that's how I see it.

[01:00:48] I mean, I also think that what people know in Lumen, to what level – I mean, I don't know to how it gets talked to people. Like, is Mr. Drummond believe that this is one of the biggest things ever? Or has he been told to tell people it's one of the biggest things ever? You know, hey, Milchik and all these people need to think that this is a really big deal. It could be just another movement. Or it really is. That would definitely be it.

[01:01:14] But I'm thinking, like, all right, let's say for a moment, let's say that they are not – they haven't been duped. And this is actually a major scientific breakthrough. I think those people who are, like, theorycrafting that's saying, like, they're trying to bring back someone who was dead and give that person eternal life.

[01:01:39] Like, maybe resurrect Kier, put him in a clone body, you know, make sure that his mind is immortal or something like that. I think that this helps us. I think that that might – there's something – there's some kind of major scientific breakthrough related to immortality that they're hoping to achieve, I think. We had Hibbers on the Discord suggesting it could be, like, Neuralink. Does everybody know what Neuralink is?

[01:02:07] This is the company trying to put an iPhone in your head, essentially. Oh, yeah. That's what Hibbers says it is. Interesting. And remember, just really quick, Mark W., played by Bob Balaban in episode one, he says, we were shit. We never completed a file. Right. So the whole company – well, not the whole company. A big chunk of the company of top-tier leadership – Well, they never met quota, actually. I just want to correct you on that. Met quota. Yeah, good point. Good point.

[01:02:36] That's a good correction. We don't want to get called out again. No, but please email us and just mention that we could have done that better. About six times, please. That why Mark and why is Drummond and Natalie and Cobell and Milchek and Helena all turning their world upside down to be able to create a containment context for Mark to be able to complete Cold Harbor?

[01:03:06] Is he the only one that can do it? And this is, again, where this mystery of, like, the mystery box of what the F is Mark about. Right. Why Mark? Yeah, Doof71 thinks this is, like, Matrix, the one kind of thing. We've got the White Rabbit kind of thing, which is parallel with the Matrix. You know, could the entire Severance universe be severed and he's just got some, like, weird connection to this?

[01:03:32] Yeah, I wonder if it's something like, because this is sort of a lineage-connected show, a lineage-connected cult. I wonder if Mark is, like, a descendant of Kier. Hmm. Or maybe Mark is a, he's a version of a clone of Kier. Yeah, that's kind of where I've been wondering is, yeah, because lineage does seem to matter.

[01:03:59] So there has to be, I mean, I don't know if it has to be, but it does feel like that's a direction that we're going. And again, understanding what Kier exactly looks like. I mean, we've seen some re-canonical versions. Does it really matter what his race is? Right.

[01:04:20] So, yeah, that's, yeah, because I think, and that makes me also wonder, like, okay, are there multiple departments that are also working on something that are the greatest things that ever could happen to the planet? Is this entire thing, is the entire Lumen office all moving towards Mark's goal? Like, is it all somehow connected? But, I mean, it's global. Like, why is this particular one?

[01:04:46] My guess is perhaps that throughout all of these, they were waiting to find the Mark S, and Mark S happens to be here. Right? Like, all of these different sections across the globe are trying to complete something, and they haven't found the one. But then here comes Mark, and for whatever reason. But it has to do with Miss Casey, or at least they're dropping a lot of hints about Miss Casey's relevance to Mark and the Cold Harbor file. Right. So. Yeah.

[01:05:14] Something else that's been floated, I know Karen E wrote in on the email, is Kobelvig going to be brought back to replace Milchick? Because he's fucking up a lot. And Kobelvig kept saying, he can't do it. He's not competent enough to handle this. You need me. I wonder if the board's going to start listening. Yeah. Give him another chance, though. Well, I mean, it's. He's had a few chances now. But Drummond seemed happy that he said he's tightening the leash. Like, he smiled in an encouraging way.

[01:05:44] Yeah, but those bangs, can you trust me? Well, and Milchick is doing a good job of, like I said, clenching his teeth and being the good soldier, right? Persevering. Right. And they just went through a shakeup. And you see this sometimes with, again, putting my corporate hat on, where something goes awry and they move on from a leader. And the organization needs to look like they know what they're doing.

[01:06:10] So if they promote or replace, I've sat through a place where the VP was let go for differing opinions with the CEO. So they brought in another guy. And this guy was a thousand times worse. And they hung on to him for the longest time trying to get him on board and trying to help, you know, kind of coach him along and do all this stuff because they're like, we can't go through another VP in this short amount of time.

[01:06:38] So sometimes corporations will stick to it to give the illusion that they know what they're doing. Because their hires are a reflection, right? Right. Right, right, right. One more little bit on this. And I don't know how much this influenced the idea of the show. I'd be interested to hear Erickson talk about this. But I would just rewatched Office Space.

[01:07:05] And I noted that the company is called Initec. And it's spelled I-N-I, like innie. All right. And then what happens is this worker bee goes to this wellness session or, you know, he goes to a hypnotist, basically. And he asked, is there any way for you to just make me forget everything at work and make me think I went fishing or something?

[01:07:35] So I wonder if there isn't a little. And, you know, I'm just thinking about like the paperclips and the TSP reports, you know, in that way, you know, sort of, like you said, negging Steve. I wonder if there's a little bit of this show that's in conversation with Office Space. I could see that. Yeah. I've not seen Office Space. Now I got to go watch that so I can stop thinking about 1984. You will not regret it.

[01:08:05] It stands the test of time. Okay. It's been a while since I watched that. All right. Let's take a quick break before we get back to the show. Hey, everyone. David here.

[01:08:26] And like a certain author once wrote, your so-called boss may own the clock that taunts you from the wall, but the hour is yours. And we're using our hours to bring you comprehensive coverage of Severance Season 2. Here's something really simple we're doing. A season pass for just five bucks. That's it. One payment. No subscription. No complexity. So what exactly is a season pass?

[01:08:55] It's a dedicated ad-free feed that gives you permanent access to all of our weekly episodes for Season 2, our exclusive Supply Closet bonus series, and Steve and Anthony's complete Season 1 rewatch. In our Supply Closet episode so far, we've had fascinating conversations with the team from Nevermind the Music.

[01:09:16] Mark broke down the four signature chords of the main musical theme and how they connect to the show's themes, while Nicole has explored the neuroscience behind different types of memory, where personality lives in the brain, as well as brainwave oscillations and reintegration. We've got more exciting conversations planned. We'll be announcing those soon. Look, we know everyone's dealing with subscription fatigue these days. That's why we made this super straightforward.

[01:09:45] Five bucks, one time, everything's included. Two clicks, and you're done. And while we can't promise you any goats, we can promise all of our episodes will leave you feeling just as refreshed as any wellness session. Head over to lorehoundsnetwork.supercast.com to get your season pass. You can also find the link in our show notes below. Need help? Visit us at lorehounds.com and use our contact page.

[01:10:26] That is the version. We got a few more things to go through before we get out of here. Audi Mark, you know, he's downing a gnarly breakfast. We talked about that.

[01:10:52] Lying to his sister, and he goes to work, where Audi Mark wakes up at work six minutes before leaving. He gets up to leave, but is stopped by Milchick, who asks him whether he told Ellie that he fucked her Audi at the Orpo. Helena Egan, er to Lumen. He returns home to Rugabi, who has moved in and expresses concerns about Mark's health. Telling him they can't do any more reintegration until a day later.

[01:11:17] Something I wanted to mention earlier when we were talking about Helena, Helly, and Mark, is that Mark's attitude, his inny attitude was always sort of a cheery and sort of sunny disposition. And he was jokey, but always in a really good-natured way.

[01:11:39] And then Helly in this episode says, you know, like, quit being a dick because he's just being so snide and jaded. And obviously, his inny has been traumatized to some degree and pushed back. And so, at the same time that his memory reintegration process is occurring, his inny personality is shifting more and more towards his outy personality.

[01:12:07] Where we see him, he's very sarcastic when he's talking with Devin, and he has a bit of a jaded attitude about life in general. And he was just seeing his inny work as just being a thing that could sort of help him get through his grief. But his inny's attitude is now evolving more towards his outies attitude, if that makes sense. Yeah, and I wonder how much of that is reintegration and how much of that is dealing with recent trauma.

[01:12:38] Exactly. Or both, right? Yeah. And how one, how either may inform the other, right? Yep. And I think that that's an important note because, yeah, the tone shift for him. And especially because I think the reason why they just followed him is because he was a really good leader. Like, he cared about all of them. He had empathy. He was also good at his job for the most part. And he wanted to do well. And he was always looking to be better.

[01:13:05] So the idea that he is, like, he's so jaded or disillusioned or traumatized, whatever, all of those things. His response, like, the worst thing you can do, like, everyone looking for leadership and the leader's like, it's all bullshit. I'm not doing that. You know, like, then what do you do then? So now they're all trying to kind of rally him back. But now they're just like, they don't know how to do that. So it is an interesting change for him. And that adds tension, right?

[01:13:33] That adds conflict almost like we see all these conflicts with people in the show. But it almost adds conflict for us as a viewer because we're kind of like, we want to root for him to lead this group. But now it's going to be that much harder. So there's a tension that we sort of feel in how the show is going to progress. Interesting. On... Oh, wait, go ahead.

[01:13:56] On Heli, since we've been talking about her relationship with Mark, I just wanted to say that Anthony did successfully go to response out of Aaron, who had been telling us that Helena was not down there. So here we go. Powerhounds and Properly Howard team. I just wanted to take a quick minute to respond to my call out on last week's pod, keeping in mind Anthony's 30 second apology limit.

[01:14:19] While I am not authorized by the board to issue an admission of guilt, I have been given express permission to give you all a $25 gift card to Pips Bar and Grill. I'd also like to issue a reminder that reintegration is not possible. See you all at the next Barovian Broadcasting Ortbo. Well played. I can't wait. Can't wait to use my Pips gift card.

[01:14:47] We should just hold our Ortbo at Pips. I think that's a requirement. That's right. Hire out Pips. Just do a lock-in or something, one of those private parties at a restaurant. Are we to believe that there's more reintegration that has happened besides Mark and Petey? She didn't deny it.

[01:15:13] Regabi seems to be treating this as, I'm the person that knows how to do this. I might be the only person that knows how to do it. Because there's no map for me. I have to make this up as I go along. I don't know if this has been done before. Well, Mark asks, or she makes a comment, and I forget exactly what it was, but she makes a comment that suggests that this is what you do.

[01:15:42] And he's like, well, but you've only done this one other time. Her phrasing suggests that this is protocol. Protocol. Oh, this is procedure. I just kind of read that. And he calls her out and says, but I thought you only did this one other time or something along those lines. And then she kind of brushes it off. Right. And it sort of leads to the question of, you know, because Irving is, Irving's out.

[01:16:06] Irving knows that there is a thing, there is a hallway that he is trying to get that message to his innie. So he could have gotten it in a variety of ways, but whether he's reintegrated or whether he's come in contact with somebody who's been reintegrated. I mean, those types of things are sort of suggested because I understand, I'm sort of grasping the idea of how Irving's communicating to his innie. But the question is, why does he know what he knows? Yeah. I don't know.

[01:16:35] Let's say I need more Rigabi in my life. Yeah. And I don't think Irving is reintegrated yet, but I could see him getting reintegrated by Rigabi. I do want to point out Rigabi finds Gemma, quote unquote, Gemma's ashes.

[01:16:52] Simon B had written an email, you know, we heard Gemma's body was burnt and we weren't sure if Mark was referring to a cremation or the accident itself. And now I'm wondering if this is what he meant the whole time. So maybe he did see a body that looked like her. And that's even more like what the fuck is happening. Right.

[01:17:17] I thought on the reintegration stuff, Rigabi was looking for pressure points. So we saw the knitting yarn. We saw that necklace for a brief second, which is I did a screen cap of it. It's hard to make out what's on that little circlet thing.

[01:17:35] Nicole, in one of our bonus episodes where she and I talked about the tempers of Keir relative to modern psychological big five personality type theory. and she pointed out that Miss Casey had a candle which is also a candle that Mark had in his basement in one of the boxes but anyway I was wondering if the eggnog was also something for

[01:18:03] because he says it must be out of season why would she try to get him to get eggnog and then I was wondering did she die around Christmas time? that seems to be in my head and maybe the eggnog is just another pressure point well this is another example of a lumen technician using external stimuli to do some kind of mind experiment right? the candle is supposed to bring a sense of visual and

[01:18:32] you know odor sensation that probably triggers certain memories that they're studying and you could probably say the same thing about Gemma's necklace or the flavor of eggnog you know there's there's a number of different senses that are being exploited here right and there's someone else who wants to tickle our senses with his lovely prose with his

[01:19:01] his colloquialisms as Milchick probably would put and that's Rickett and Rickett is planning to sell out to Lumen while Devin is starting to push back it's not a sell out it's a Trojan's horse the possessive is really fun on that one did any of you read Rickon's 39 page excerpt of his book I listened to about half the audio I haven't gone back around to it yet

[01:19:31] I listened to the whole thing it is the actor by the way the actor does the audio book they actually professionally produced this this isn't some sort of side thing that they did they actually had him in a proper sound studio and they produced it like a proper audio book so and there is a whole excerpt and I guess spoilers for the the UUR if you haven't read it and you want to read it there's a whole excerpt where Rickon he gives he gives Mark and Gemma pseudonyms of Nan and Flip

[01:20:00] for Mark uh but it's like obvious it's them and he recounts a tale where he's in Mark's basement trying to get back a tape of him like performing some kind of musical thing because he's like well Gemma liked it but you don't like it uh and Gemma used to say that you two listened to it together and Mark's like denying that he threw it out and they get into a whole fight where Mark says listen yeah we used to listen to it we used to laugh at you and everybody else laughs at you every time you leave a room and they have like a hole falling out

[01:20:30] and he's like I could sue Mark for losing for throwing out that tape and I just want to point out that like there is some kind of darker side to this Rickon thing yeah I was just looking at the nine core principles of Kier which are vision verve wit cheer humility benevolence nimbleness probity and wiles because I was thinking about Milchik and was he if they're giving him a second chance you know what

[01:20:58] what core values is he corporate core values is he demonstrating anyway on the severance wiki which is sort of my go-to source they have a somebody screen captured the core principles that were framed in needlepoint in Cobell's home and Harmony's home and the last line the tenth line of this needlepoint is I was me till you gave me you that you and I'm like

[01:21:28] oh isn't that interesting that they're you know that Rickon is demonstrating sort of a natural preponderance for Kier like philosophies and so they could see you know I could see how corporate wise they could say oh we could we could easily hijack this right we could easily fold this into to our value set and use it for our our tools or he's working out some kind of subconscious experience he's had with Lumen in the same way Irv is painting

[01:21:58] his subconscious maybe maybe Rickon has been separate at some point and the UUR was sort of his creative outlet for that but you know what's interesting is Rickon has a whole backstory about his birth in the book apparently his birth was performance art in Oregon did you John did you listen to the last episode um no not the whole thing okay did you recount this whole thing okay well then I don't have to do this

[01:22:27] and of course you know then from that that his parents were then later arrested for holding an actual gun at an actual bank at gunpoint as another performance art so he's he's been through it is the point dumpster so maybe maybe Cold Harbor is uh all about Mark getting Rickon back to Lumen right so Rickon's really the uh the whole point here because now he's starting to write this book and Mark is now 80 plus percent along the way and so Mark is it's not about

[01:22:57] Mark at all it's been about Rickon is really the key he's Dieter that's right Rickon is Dieter he's Dieter and in the audiobook you know Rickon had a uh mythical brother of some kind which was art as opposed to Dieter which is yeah and and uh Simon B did write in and I actually wanted to pose this to Anthony this is said as you suggested Dieter might Dieter might be a metaphor for the aspects of himself that Kira's trying to edit out this is what all religions do to a degree

[01:23:26] train us to edit out or bypass aspects of our natural instincts and biological drives that make us seemingly sinful or too engaged with the cycle of life perhaps severance is an attempt to achieve the same goal by different means I feel like that's a that's a good question for Anthony uh I don't know enough about all religions yeah it's it's quite the premise broadly um so I don't know I would I would do more research on that there Simon yeah I I agree the the premise

[01:23:56] is a little loaded there uh but but I do think it's interesting to um think of Dieter as sort of a metaphor for like Satan right like this idea like there needs to be an adversary we this uh dualistic trend that happens in some Abrahamic religions uh that that sort of creeps in into monotheism you know into the monotheism maybe not a last point but a quick point about uh Rickon um Michael Cherniss's portrayal

[01:24:26] when he's talking to Devin there is a really noticeable tone and linguistic shift when he switches out of the sort of uh Rickon persona of the of this uh artistically inspired thought leader type guy and when he switches into talking about the financial upside of selling a book to Lumen his his whole being changes and I just thought wow that's a really good thing now we're actually seeing the real

[01:24:55] Rickon not the um the he he is yes the he that he is a excellent way of putting it so good job Michael Cherniss who has just been all in on the performance of Rickon right he is he's not held back on his performance David did you get far enough into the you you are where you heard him uh suggest that you you you you should keep putting pictures on

[01:25:36] here sure i wanted to make a note about the confusing bert and erve and to say that okay fine you know yeah we we make flubs in real time that's to be expected not all of the things that we say are accurate the idea though that we're confusing bert and erve which i always think of bert and ernie from sesame street but that that they're overlaid in some way i think is a point because in my mind they're connected and so if i transpose their

[01:26:06] names i think that that's uh i think that's indicative of how good the show is at presenting us with these two characters and having them so interlinked all right so irving's out he at work and suspects irving was involved

[01:26:36] he invites him over for dinner with bert's husband fields so they can sort everything out and i received a text from my wife as she heard me starting to talk about this and she said what if the guy with the dental tools in the exports hall in had that same instinct but i

[01:27:06] think that there's something there i think certainly this isn't a show that makes willy-nilly camera decisions everything is very well thought out there is a reason why we haven't seen this person's face yeah i agree so anyway because it's pd or mr milch salt and pepper um we hauling right yeah

[01:27:36] i have this goes into the theory crafting of of is erb severed or not i am now not severed reintegrated i'm now of the mind that he hasn't gone through any reintegration process but his audi is actively working with whatever resistance forces are out there and that they're trying you know in their attempts to to get past severed technology

[01:28:05] erb is one severed employee who is they're trying one methodology like they're actively engaged in subverting the technology so i don't know that yeah i don't think that he's reintegrated i think he's just on the outside of resistance yeah and somebody who's working with them has knowledge of of of people and uh like they they have to have some some lumen insight right i mean they've got they've got a roster of people

[01:28:35] uh there is uh and it is handwritten which suggests that somebody has been writing these things down as opposed to like any printouts um you know they they know locations of things so so so there they're they're resistance side of this is going to be very interesting to see how this plays out right because it appears with at least reintegration that rigabi's kind of flying solo but we don't know for sure this is there's there's a like it's an easy mystery to sort of overlook because we're so locked into mark and the

[01:29:05] inside world that there's this there's a and walking together Anthony had a I'm spoiling your upcoming conversation with Jason and Burrell a little bit Anthony but in one of our supply closet episodes you and Jason are talking and one of the topics that you get into is collectivism versus individualism and the

[01:29:35] idea of that Lumen is sort of this empire like force like a Star Wars empire versus the resistance these rebellious individuals who have to find some form of collectivism to take down the organized institution yeah yeah and I think you know one thing that Jason says in that conversation I agree with is

[01:30:19] super individualistic self help books right so you see an extreme form of collectivism making fun of that extreme form of individualism making fun of that so I don't know if that is the only thing that they're trying to do but that's certainly one of the things that they're trying to do with the show so really quick before we start to get out of here the needle drops we obviously had the wreck of the

[01:30:48] Edmund Fitzgerald whistled diegetically 1976 Gordon Lightfoot it's about the wreck of a iron ore ship on one of the great lakes and yeah we there's been a lot of conversation about that but the other needle drop was coconut water by calypso is like so dot dot dot and

[01:31:18] the I never knew that Robert Mitchum was a musical person but Sinatra apparently said of him for anyone who's not a professional musician he knows more about music from Bach to Brubeck than any man I've ever known wow yeah I thought that was an eye popping thing obviously Robert Mitchum a big movie star for his time and the album cover for Calypso is

[01:31:48] hilarious because it looks like they drug his ass out of bed after he had about a two bottle bender the night before but anyway there's one more Cold Harbor related thing that I wanted to point out really quick which is when Mark is going through his Rolodex at his terminal I did a little freeze frame and went through and pulled all the names and I don't know that they're going to mean anything but I just thought it was interesting the in order as they appear Waynesboro

[01:32:18] which is in Virginia Yakima which is in Washington Allentown which is in Pennsylvania Astoria which is in Oregon but it's also a neighborhood in Queens so I think they're going with the state because then they have Bellingham which I don't know that I'm going to be able to pronounce this correctly Chicxulub which is the impact crater in the Yucatan Peninsula

[01:32:48] in the Gulf of Mexico and then there is this is a and again I'm not sure I'm going to pronounce this right it's either a Spanish word or an Italian word which means heaven or sky which is Chilio and then lastly he comes up onto Cold Harbor which we've talked about before is in Hanover County in Virginia so I was just going to make a note here my initial thought on Cold Harbor was

[01:33:19] is are we dealing with some kind of cryogenic free situation but I don't know if we've talked about that on this I think I I've posited my DNA theory which I've you know got over to death so Cold Harbor could just mean that's where we keep the the body frozen until it's ready to be brought back to life I kind of

[01:33:49] feel like I'm starting to lean pretty heavily in this direction feels like they're going to resurrect someone and I don't know how it relates to Mark or Miss Casey but greatest event in the history of the planet makes me feel like they're going to try to bring back cure in some form some kind of mind entity so I guess the Astoria project is just helping people jump the turn style

[01:34:19] who knows who knows all right well it's been a fun episode everybody want to remind everybody to check out our affiliates radioactive ramblings you heard from Aaron today they're doing a bunch of studio Ghibli stuff we have Alicia on we'll shift dust wrapping up silo and she's also running our Oscars series on the main lore hounds feed you've got never mind the music doing grammy stuff doing personality tests plenty of stuff over there

[01:34:48] go check that out probably Howard what are you all doing nothing at all we're in between seasons but you just finished a few good men we have plans very good yeah yeah just go ahead and look at the old archive I'm sure you'll you'll benefit greatly from Superman 3 or Howard the Duck Rocky 4 you know there's a lot of good stuff over there very good very good and of course on the main lore hounds feed we're just getting ready for wheel of time

[01:35:18] we're going to do a listen we're so much coverage a week David I'm looking like two weeks ahead we're not we're not doing if you want to zone in on something more recent I just had a conversation with Mark and Nicole

[01:35:48] on Nevermind the music about the Saturday night live documentary that was produced by Questlove about the music of Saturday Night live and so we're going to release the full episode on their feed and then there'll be a little hot takes teaser on our feed very good very good all right everyone it's going to be a lot of fun next week we will see you for more theory crafting then but for now stick around to hear a sample of Anthony's conversation

[01:36:18] with Jason there's probably some allegory you know some allegorical elements but it's not like say for example with you know Star Wars or Lord of the Rings or Star Trek where it's like you know good versus evil and stuff like that yeah I kind of feel like this one does it it's playing with a few concepts that we've seen before in sci-fi like if I upload

[01:36:48] my consciousness into a machine is that still me or does that have some kind of continuity with person I was before we've seen this in sci-fi before right oh yeah absolutely and you know I dare say that the sort of mainline philosophical view of personhood and personal identity is psychologically based ever since John Locke in the 17th century

[01:37:18] but there are competing theories you know there there's a theory called animalism that rejects the psychological approach and says no what I am I'm essentially this living animal body and yeah I have consciousness and thought but if that could be encoded and transmitted it it be it it wouldn't be me it would be again there would be something and that something thinks it's me and has my

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