Severance - S02E06 - Attila

[00:00:00] Is this the podcast where we talk badly about Anthony? Yeah. It's the one episode he should be here for because it's got like... I was just thinking that, yeah. I know, I know. He's gonna, he's gonna, he would, all he would do is give us something based in history. Why don't we do something based on conjecture? I like that better. What is religion without conjecture? Don't pervert a handbook passage to me, okay?

[00:00:27] Welcome to a Lorehounds and Properly Howard joint production, covering Severance on Apple TV Plus Season 2, Episode 6, Attila. I'm John, and with me today, he's just finished his penance of restapling all our podcast outlines, David. John, did you sever some part of your anatomy this morning when you were coming into work? I hope not. I don't remember if I did. There you go. And he's a man who eats his rice with fingers first, Steve. So true.

[00:00:57] So true. Anthony couldn't be here today. He's busy eradicating from his essence childhood folly. Not taking an extended cruise voyage? I guess that has like a ring of permanents to it. I like it. I think we made the joke last week at some point. That's why I, I, I eschewed it. I, and I'm trying to keep current with the current episode. You know what I'm saying? Too many big words, John. Too many big words. I know. You're going to, uh, you're going to get me a bad, a bad performance review.

[00:01:25] I'm going to have to stare myself in the mirror and repeat this podcast script all over again. Until I get it right. How many contritions? Okay. David, will you give us the quick housekeeping? Absolutely. You can get ad free versions of this podcast without a subscription by spending five bucks on what we call a season pass. Links are in the show notes below. Uh, included in that five bucks, you get Steve and Anthony's season one recap series.

[00:01:53] You get all of these ad free, and then you get our supply closet bonus episodes. We've already had a bunch of those. We had Mark on for one talking about the music. We've had Nicole, who's a psychology professor on a couple of times talking about brain physiology and personality type theory. Anthony had a great conversation with, uh, Jason, who is an ethicist and philosopher, and he's written a whole bunch of books on philosophy and sci-fi about Star Trek and Star Wars and stuff.

[00:02:22] Uh, next week I'm going to be talking with Ian from the captain's pod and Aisha from every single sci-fi film ever to sort of get their takes on from a sci-fi genre perspective. And we've got a few more. So, if that sounds interesting, five bucks ad free and a bunch of bonus content, there's the link in the show notes. Uh, if you want to talk real time, you can do that for free on our discord server on our community discord server. We've got channels set up, uh, for each of the episodes.

[00:02:51] People are theory crafting and having a good time in there. If you would like to send us email, uh, feedback, if you'd like to correct our pronunciations on any of the, uh, the names of the characters, please do so. Send it to severance at the lorehounds.com. Nancy, a hand of the pod, our hand of the pod will be glad to collate your submissions. And lastly, please like rate and review. We do enjoy reading all of your comments. So.

[00:03:20] I will say I, I did take a look just before this episode and after our, uh, sort of jokey, please rate and review us last week, our little bit, we got like 10 more reviews. No, really? That was nice. Yeah. People, people respond and they were all nice. So thank you. Thank you everyone. We appreciate the nice ones. Okay. So let's get into hot takes here. Please try to enjoy each hot take equally and not show preference for any above the others.

[00:03:51] Steve in between plates at the Chinese buffet. Can you please give us your hot take? Uh, lots of great stuff in this one. I mean, this is a, uh, this is the most lovey dovey, right? Of all of them, I guess, uh, everybody gets some or at least, uh, gets on the verge of getting some in Irving's case. Um, lots of really, I mean, so much to chew on, um, about the nature of, uh, Bert and fields.

[00:04:17] Um, I, you know, uh, trying to figure, I didn't, I didn't do as deep a dive as I probably should have on, on, uh, Attila, the Hun knowledge. Um, you know, we've got it named Attila. They call each other Hun, but then Attila is sort of a, a variation of Hun. But, um, knowing that, uh, the, the, the, the rumor of Attila, the Hun's death being by nosebleed, uh, I couldn't help but wonder is Mark, is Mark gonna die?

[00:04:46] Oh, I think that would be such a fatal mistake for the show. If they killed off Adam Scott, he's just such a selling point on the show. Well, maybe like that's its ultimate, maybe that's its ultimate end though. Right? Yeah, I could see that. I could see that. I just, I just think if they kill him off before the show is over, that's, that's going to be first of many nails in the coffin probably. Well, could you bring him back? Could you bring the actor back?

[00:05:12] Hmm. And could you, could he die and then whatever they're doing with this, could that bring him back? Right. Yeah. So I mean, these, those are the, I mean, that would be a pretty interesting way to end the season, right? Right. Yeah. He, he, he appears to die, so to speak. Cause I mean, we've already have an instance, at least one person in his life has appeared to die and actually is alive. That's a good point. Well, I'm thinking about Petey too, because Petey did not survive the reintegration process.

[00:05:39] Right. And we know for sure Petey wasn't whistling the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald on his way to, uh... No. No. Yeah. Yeah. Any other thoughts on this episode? I mean, it takes... I mean, uh, cause I, yeah, one of the things I wrote down initially and then looking into the Attila, uh, the hunt thing, trying to find some sort of, you know, nugget to grab onto was the first thing I had written down was, is Mark on a suicide mission? Um, and is he okay with that? Hmm. Sort of the, sort of the bargaining thing.

[00:06:08] Like, what are you willing to give up? Right. You know, to bring somebody back. And I guess in this case, it's like, if he can't live without her, then he, then he won't live without her. Right. I mean, almost that's kind of how I, I, I was reading at least some of that, um, episode is heavy and reflections, lots of mirror images, right? Lots of them, some very clear mirrors and other ones. Um... Are you using my notes, Steve? Because I have what seem exact.

[00:06:33] Uh, and then like, cause yeah, even the scene under the, uh, in the, in the makeshift tent has, uh, has some reflections. Yeah, on the ceiling. Um, which by the way, that scene is incredible. Can't wait to talk about that. Um, Milchek, we see him initially with just a profile and then his opposite profile again. And then later we get him, you know, straight on. And then he has his reflective moment or moment in the reflection, which I think is really interesting as well. Again, don't know what to do with that, but I can't wait to unpack it.

[00:07:02] Um, one of my favorite, again, this is probably all stuff that, that we'll cover, but, uh, I just because I'm talking first and I want to race to let everybody know that I saw it, uh, is, uh, when... Are you, are you, uh, clue signaling? Are you signaling that you're clever and you... I'm trying to. Um, it, I love the sequence where Fields and Irving are speaking to each other in the kitchen. Is this the... Oh. The cabinets, the difference of the cabinets. No, I missed that one.

[00:07:29] Oh, so Irving's cabinets that, that, that frame him are wood, like a wood grain. And then the, the cabinets that frame Fields are like stark white, almost like the, uh, hallway of... Oh, nice. Like, can I, can I, uh, tit for tat you on one? Yeah, let's go. Uh, Bert, when he, when they're talking about, uh, innies burning, innies and outies and whether their immortal souls can be saved.

[00:07:57] And they say, oh yeah, Bert was quite a rep scallion in his, in his younger days. What's behind Bert? A big old fireplace. Like the, the, the light of the flames of, of hell. Yeah. Uh, one more thing I did notice and it is in their house on the way out. Um, and I, uh, we talked about this before was, uh, Mark's three, uh, light bulbs. Uh huh. Two, two are on, one is off. And then he, and they're like, oh, it's not gonna, it's not gonna turn itself on or not gonna fix itself.

[00:08:26] Is what, you know, uh, uh, uh, Kowalvik says to him. And then later he goes, he's going to put it in and he gets interrupted again when he's going to fix it. And in, in, uh, and in this episode, um, while I don't recall seeing his light fixture, uh, when Bert and Irving are leaving, there are two lights clearly on right next to where Bert and Irving are. And then on the foreground, there is another lamp that is very dim. And that's, this is happening at the same time that reintegration is starting to take hold.

[00:08:56] I love it. I love all this. It's crazy. It's so good. David, do you have more thoughts besides your tit for tat with Steve? I really question the, the idea that cumin should be used with ham. Uh, I thought that that was a myth. I think I've used it. I think I've used it in, in sort of a maple, like a spiced maple honey. That's fine. That I've made.

[00:09:22] But as the primary element of the glaze. Primary is a little weird. Yeah. You can do it as long as you don't serve loose corn, loose corn. It's good. This was the relationship episode. Uh, we have throuples and quadruples happening all over the place. And, uh, we can talk a lot more about that when we get to it, but it was like, it was the relationship and, and, uh, uh, uh, immortal soul.

[00:09:50] Like, you know, can your soul be saved kind of thing. The. Yeah. The idea of a soul almost being a different part of you, right? Like you have the part of you that operates in the world and then there's the soul that is ultimately the one that will be judged. And that's, I love that any Audi, um, parallel that's sort of just presented right there. It's like the soul within the soul. Yeah. And, uh, I, I don't know if you, either of you caught this either, but other than the very brief intro with Ragabi.

[00:10:21] The two a minute on almost to the minute, the first half of the episode is all any. And the second half, like right around the 24 minute mark is Audi. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So this episode itself is, is split sort of in half. And then that gets into the whole visual storytelling thing, Steve, like we're, we're talking about just the way that they're using the camera, these long focus poles.

[00:10:47] Like going from Milchick's profile, racking the zoom all the way to Miss Wong as she walks in, you know, to the office. It's a long, long focus pole. And there's like several of these, which is crazy. Yeah. Yeah. But it's so good. They're so smooth. The focus pullers are doing a really good job. Yeah. The, the closeup on Milchick in the beginning, like the way that it was such a perfect profile to it, like it almost just reminded me of currency.

[00:11:14] And I don't know, like, it was just, just the idea that he was on like, like, like his face on currency. Like, yeah, yeah. There was just something so like, I don't know, just something so like, like real, but not real at the same time. And it definitely, it's yeah. The, the, the camera work choices, everything is still, still undefeated. So, so then we've get miss a closeup on Miss Wong's face, right?

[00:11:43] Big F you energy behind her eyes. It's like, okay, I'll go sit at my desk. But then her face is perfectly shadowed. Half of her face is nice high, you know, nicely toned and lit. And then right down the center of her nose, it's dark and shadow on the other side. So just beautiful. Mark, when he's sitting and talking to Ragabe, the, his fish tank is behind his head. So he has a blue halo around his head. I love it.

[00:12:10] Um, yeah, the mirror shots in the break room, the, with the crew standing in the corner of the break room and the, they're perfectly reflected in the mirror. So we get them twice. Right. Right. So there's six people on the, on the frame. Did you catch, okay, here's another tit for tat Steve. Mm hmm. In the restaurant, when Mark is leaving and he's walking along that half wall thing. Uh huh. Not only is the surface of that reflecting the lights from above, right?

[00:12:39] So you get this long, beautiful leading line down the middle, but that looks exactly like a lumen hallway. Oh, I did not catch it. That's good. With the light panels up on top. Yeah. And I love the, uh, the restaurant, uh, Zufu and then the Z you were out and it's just as F you at the end of. What was the F you? I tweeted that on, uh, or ski did that or whatever. I put that on blue sky. I was like, what's with the F you? Because that is not a, that's not a mistake.

[00:13:08] That's not a Starbucks mug on the, on the table. Right. That's right. Yeah. That's intentional. And I don't know if that's like a moment. Cause like, that's when he realizes like, he's going like, you know, screw lumen, screw all this. I'm, I'm going for it. Right. I mean, I, that's part of it. I mean, I, that, that's what my initial take, but you, but again, I think there's a part of it that feels like that's so on the nose that I feel like there might be more to it.

[00:13:30] There, there's some people in our discord talking about, um, that those character combinations might be the word for father in, in, um, Oh, for Attila. Uh, no for F you. F you. Yeah. I didn't read the article, so I didn't know. I don't know if it's Mandarin or Cantonese or, or like what, what particular language, but they were. Attila is also considered to be, I think, uh, if I understand, I think it's, it's father as well. Oh, Attila. Right. Yeah. I get, I think A's in Hungarian are pronounced. Oh, uh, when they're like that.

[00:14:01] Oh, Attila. Anyway, but that's neither here nor there. Uh, so the last thing I have to say is just a shout out to all the secondary actors. Who, you know, Devin Gretchen and Ruggabi. I don't know how they found these people are like what, but I, I just feel like I know Devin or it's like I've hung out with Gretchen before Ruggabi before. They're so personable and down to earth.

[00:14:24] And with all this innie outie stuff, these three women characters are just, I don't know. I just really, every time they come on screen, I feel connected to them. And that level of casting to find that within people. Oh man. Again, just, just top notch stuff. Yeah. And it's nice to see some people in the outside world that aren't, um, like Rick and type people. Exactly. There are weirdos.

[00:14:53] John, uh, do you have, uh, any spicy hot glaze takes? This is usually where I just pass my own off cause we already did three and I don't want to keep it going longer, but now Anthony's not here. So now I'm going to, I'm going to reclaim a space for, for hot takes. So yeah, I mean, it's incredible. One thought I had is how long are we going to have before season three?

[00:15:16] Because I was looking up how old is, is, uh, Christopher Walken 81 years old. If we're going to have three years before a season, every time you, and it seems like they're giving him a more major role. Now I just, you know, he's a recast. Oh no fields. They recasted. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They could, I think if he, if something happens and he's unable to complete a season three, uh, Kamala Harris can take over. Okay.

[00:15:47] That was, I don't even get that one. Yeah. But you guys hear about Biden and how he wasn't able cause he was older and yeah. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. All right. All right. That makes sense. Jokes are the funniest when we have to explain them. The rice was just falling through my fingertips. I couldn't, I couldn't quite get to choke. No, I get it now. I get it now. That's a good one. Um, we, I just wasn't slow on the uptick, but my point is, my point is I, I, if they're doing a major role with him, I'm like, I want Christopher Walken for this.

[00:16:16] I just don't like, there is no other Christopher Walken, you know, like you could recast a lot of people, but Christopher Walken has such a unique shtick that I don't want to use that for the character. Yeah. What's that? See if I missed it. Jay, Jay Moore could just do his impression and they'll just put makeup on him or something. Right. Fair enough. Fair enough. Christopher Walken. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. If you, if you can't do it, just don't do it. Just don't. Just don't do it. Who are you?

[00:16:44] If you can't do Michael Caine or Christopher Walken, do not try because you'll only hurt yourself. I saw a recent interview with him where somebody said like, how do you do the voice? Like, how do you decide what to put the emphasis on? He goes, I don't know. You know, a lot of people say, try to say lines, how they are supposed to, are supposed to like sound because of the meaning. I just say them how I think they should sound. Love it. That's amazing. Like not, not based on the meeting, but based on like the verbiage. I'm like, okay. All right. I can see that.

[00:17:12] Uh, he's a very musical speaker. Anthony texted this morning. So I figured we could kind of, uh, bring a little of him in. He said, Christopher Walken said that one of his favorite actors is Bugs Bunny. And he's played in, he's played entire parts as if he was Bugs Bunny in secret. That's really funny. That's really funny. What's up doc? Doc. All right, John, what else you got? My biggest thing, I'll just keep it brief is this show does a really good job of not dragging

[00:17:42] out simple things and raising important questions as we go on. So, you know, last, last episode towards the end of the episode, we're asked, you know, did you tell Hellie that you had sex with her Audi? And we're like, oh, is that going to be like drama for them for the rest of the season? And no, that has resolved the beginning of the next episode. Excellent. Excellent. Pacing. What's going to happen with Bert? Oh, we're at dinner the next episode. Right. You know, all these things have, have such a great pace and that's such a hard thing to do in a mystery box.

[00:18:10] But that's why this thing keeps working is that they keep the pace of the reveals going and they keep the pace of the new mysteries going. So I was getting good. Yeah. Yeah. Because contrived tension is not really tension, right? Exactly. If you just extend it just for the sake of it, then like we're on, we're on edge, but not because of anything you've done. You've just sort of just, just elongated it for no good reason. And we're smart enough as an audience to know when you're stretching it out. Well, I don't have time to explain the thing to you. So I'm going to explain that. I can't explain it to you five times. Right.

[00:18:40] So let's get, so come on, just explain the interruption that, oh no, there was an earthquake and we're never going to get to it. Right. Yeah. I, and, and also I think the show kind of nods to that at one point when, when fields goes, oh, do you know history? And Burke goes, he knows history. He knows history. Like the viewer knows what's going on. Let's just move on. I'm not going to tell you who Attila the hunt is. Go look it up. Right. So I like that. I love the show.

[00:19:08] I was going to actually ask you guys if, you know, here we are at episode six, we've got four to go. Uh, are, do we feel like we're wrapping things up? Are we moving? Did, did six move us close enough to the goal lines to feel like we're getting there? Cause I'm starting to feel like, okay, I'd like a couple more things to pick up. I'm not complaining. I'm just going like, God, that's four, four episodes to do a lot. Yeah.

[00:19:38] That, that I had a similar thought, but then I sat and looked in and, uh, I had a moment last night where I had a pause to go to the bathroom and I was like, it's 20 minutes in and I can't believe all the things we've just seen happen. Hmm. Yeah. And it's crazy because it never feels again, going back to what we've talked about. It doesn't feel rushed. I mean, we've had, I mean, like in, in that period of time and like half of the, the episode, we've see a Dylan, uh, Gretchen, um, you know, uh, you know, almost enough, a weird affair, if you will.

[00:20:08] Um, we've seen, uh, this very, uh, a sweet sort of redo of the intimacy between, uh, Helly and Mark, as well as also going through this really kind of dramatic and traumatic, uh, response of, of, of dealing with that information on, on both of their parts. Um, it's, it's just really, and then, and in addition to, you know, seeing some, uh, reintegration,

[00:20:36] um, elements, uh, with, with Mark and Raghavi. I mean, so there was so much had taken place and Milchak of course is already is, is in his, uh, Uh, uh, Irv is fully outie. And so, but we got plenty of with him. So, yeah. Yeah. So much was covered in, in, like I said, in just even half the episode. So I, I do think that a lot can be done, but again, what I liked about this is as things get revealed, new mysteries come up. Okay. We, you know, Mr. Drummond is in Irv's place.

[00:21:05] Is this all part of like the new questions come up, right? I mean, new elements of, uh, of intrigue and, um, you know, lumens and depression. I mean, Lumen really breached a lot in this episode, right? I mean, Helly or Hell, Helena coming to the restaurant and making contact with Mark and, and Mr. Drummond, uh, breaking and entering. Uh, it's all fascinating. He had keys. So it's true. That's true. So I guess not true B and E just an E just an E. Just an E.

[00:21:34] I think that's about it for hot takes. Let's take a quick break. When we get back, we'll get into the episode. Hey, Mark, I was listening to Paramore the other day, and it really made me think about the amygdala and the limbic system. You just made those words up, didn't you? What? Paramore? We're the Nevermind the Music podcast where one musician and one psychologist talk songwriting and the mind one song at a time.

[00:22:02] We'll hear everything from Green Day and OutKast to Stevie Wonder and Dua Lipa. And we mostly try to stay on topic. Except for when we don't want to. Nevermind the music wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. So let's get into the episode. Milchick and Huang is where I want to start. I'm going to save the juicier bits for a little later. Let's warm up with some stuff. Milchick and Huang, Milchick subtly tells Miss Huang he knows she was the snitch for his performance review.

[00:22:30] He tells her he has to sign off on her completing her fellowship and being wintertide material. Milchick puts her in charge for the day at her own desk and moves on to his day of self-improvement. We talked a bunch already about the lighting and the scenes on this though. But the face acting by the actor, I don't have the severance wiki up in front of me so I can't remember the name of the actor.

[00:23:02] Tramiel. No, not Tramiel. Oh, I'm sorry. Miss Wong. Miss Wong. I don't have the severance wiki up, so I don't know Miss Wong's actor right off the top of my head. Sarah Bach. Thank you. Sarah Bach. What? The big F you energy that she had behind her eyes and her facial movements. And I think somebody said something that she changed her hairstyle as well. She's got the sort of center part thing now, I think.

[00:23:31] Man, where did this kid come from? Because she is amazing. She is just in the quiet movement of like, okay, so that's how we're going to play Mr. Milchick. Like, it was fantastic. That's a, I think the performance is really worth noting the way that you're talking about it is because so often younger actors over emote or they really, really ham it up, you know, because that's what acting seems to be.

[00:24:01] But like. Acting. That's right. Yeah. She definitely has the, I mean, this whole show, I mean, faces are everything in the show, right? I mean, it's like the, there's so much face acting and, and no one, um, and, and no one does, you know, like, like cuts it short. I mean, they all, they all do it. I mean, she did such a great job in that, that sequence. I mean, both, both actors were great in that sequence. Um, uh, as he's just Milchick feel, feel so neutered in so many different ways. Yeah.

[00:24:30] For a guy who is clearly trying to be in control and it's just his character, I think is, that's the one I'm really locked in on trying to see how that. How this character develops and what to expect from, from him as, as the, uh, the plot continues to move forward. A quick segue, Steve, are you a Saturday Night Live fan? Yeah.

[00:24:49] Cause obviously we've been having SNL 50 has been all over the place and we did actually a podcast about it with, uh, nevermind the music with Mark and Nicole talking about the, the musical documentary. But I was watching one of the, what is it? Uh, I forget. It's the, it's the four part documentary. And each episode talks about a, uh, particular aspect of the show, but they had John Lithgow coming on and they, they were doing the whole acting. That's right. Master thespian. Yes.

[00:25:19] Oh, it's so good. Uh, just brought memories back. So when you, so when you made the reference just now, I had to check in to see if you, how big an SNL fan you are. And I am millennial just got an office joke quoting that from like 15 years ago. Right. So it's recycled. That's really funny. Of course, Steve Carell, Michael Scott in there is supposed to be like an improv fan. And so he would have quoted that and weird about it. Right.

[00:25:45] Well, that's the thing about Saturday Night Live is it, even though any particular episode may not be so funny or, you know, off the, the thing is just outputting so much. There's so much in the cultural milieu that, that had sourced. It's like, it's like the Paris runway, right? You're like, I'm never going to wear that, but it's going to filter down and out into all of these other things. So. That's a, that's a really good analogy. I like that. Oh, thank you. Yeah. It's almost like I'm a professional podcaster. Almost. Almost.

[00:26:15] Not quite there. Yeah. So, so yeah, he gets, we, we, you know, he knows I look, cause I, I did, you know, I would try to watch the recaps as much as I can too. So, and, and like the, they highlight the anonymous part of his, um, uh, right. Right. And like my wife immediately is like, well, who else is going to be saying that? It's like, like, and so, uh, it's, and it's hard to know, like when you have somebody, cause, cause, cause there's so, it's so unclear. I mean, now we have a better idea of Ms. Wong.

[00:26:45] She's, um, she's doing a stewardship. So, so at least we understand, you know, the, maybe the answer to the question, why is she a child? Um, right. Right. Because she's on some sort of accelerated learning program. Right. Yeah. Yeah. However, however they do schooling. Right. Um, this is, this is part of it, but it also like now is like, okay, well, is she being sort of, uh, an impish teenager and, and, you know, ratting them out or is there, is this all,

[00:27:15] is there goals of, of, uh, somehow, you know, usurping it's, it's hard to know. Right. I mean, it's like, cause I don't really know what the, you know, what we don't know what winter tide is, but, but, uh, it's hard to like, is she just being difficult because she's a, you know, a young girl or is, is there, is there something else going on? I mean, I think there's a, there's a nice little bit of like, I, I know less even when I know more going on with, with Ms. Wong.

[00:27:40] I would love to have dodged into the Google servers and, uh, watch the search results for winter tide spike. Oh, right. Yeah. Right. So what do we think it is? I think that's the, so there are two big mysteries that come out of this episode. I think one is winter tide. The other is the 20 year, 12 year disparity. So let's talk about winter tide here. What is it? Anybody have any idea? No idea. I didn't do any searching or any, uh, uh, uh, I didn't do any searching or any,

[00:28:10] I know. Is it, there's like a book winter tide, right? And Oh, somebody in the discord said something about that too. Yeah. Let me go look at carry on and I'll look it up while we talk. Yeah. I believe the winter tide, uh, it's, um, well, there's, I don't know if it's a, maybe it's a movie too or both. I don't know. Um, there's a couple of different things. There's one, there's a, there's a zombie, uh, situation, uh, where a movie named after it.

[00:28:36] Um, it's Yoshi Bop on our discord said that there's a 2023 zombie movie, uh, an isolated northern city battles, a plague of depressed, uh, uh, of depression that transforms its victims into zombie like a ton automatons. Thank you, Yoshi Bop, by the way. Yeah. And then in 1999, there is, uh, there's a, there's a novel 2017, there's a novel and

[00:29:05] they, they tend to, to deal with like the paranormal and horror, I think, um, and relationships therein. So I don't know. I mean, it could be just, it could be a thing, right? I mean, like that, that causes us to do this very thing. Like what are they talking about? Like what we called it winter tide because winter tide is actually, those are words. Is it just red, red meat? Could be. I mean, who knows? I mean, it's hard to say, but, uh, but yeah, for sure. I mean, I was immediately like, what's winter tide? What does it mean? Was there a battle of winter tide in the civil war?

[00:29:36] Uh, can we talk about, uh, Milchick doing his atonements? Oh man. The, his hands shaking after, uh, putting the paper clips, uh, of that huge stack of papers together. Was that, is that prescribed in the book or is he doing that out of his own volition to I was just going to ask if that is a, if it's a self inflicted, um, you know, penance or if it's part of it.

[00:30:05] I think it's gotta be part of it. That's so lumen to me is to like, I do think that there's a level of treating the innies with kid gloves a little bit because they are childlike in a lot of ways, but I think management doesn't get any kind of soft treatment at all. Right. Well, I mean, yeah, they, they do have their, uh, their recitation that they have to do. Right. And you know, uh, hell he had to, uh, Oh, how many times was it? How many? It was a lot. Yeah.

[00:30:34] Uh, and, and they've all kind of had to do that. Um, and so he kind of did one that was a little bit, that that's where I was wondering if it was him, him focusing because he did it for however long he needed to do it. Like his little, uh, get to the part to like, to get to where he just was just shouting grow at himself. Um, which, you know, I mean, that's cracking during something he was supposed to do. You know, totally right. Right. It could be read either way for sure. Yeah. I mean, and I think a little, probably a little column a column B, right?

[00:31:03] Like, I mean, I think there may have been like, okay, I've done this task. Now I'm going to improve this other part. And as it happens, it does become a kind of a cracking moment. Right. I mean, where it's like, this is what I said to miss Wong, but now I'm intentionally saying it to myself. And as I keep saying it, it's, I mean, I was reading that as, as, as now he's, he's, he's, uh, he's talking to himself to grow up, grow, grow. And that's what I think doesn't, what does Kovellvig say? Like he's not up to the task.

[00:31:32] And I think he's starting to hit his limits. And that's why the grow line I think is so potent is because he's forcing, he's shouting at himself to push himself beyond his current, you know, uh, capabilities and growth is hard and growth is painful. Right. And, and so he's, he's getting real, uh, um, intense with it. Yeah. The, the, the transition from grow up to grow is significant, right?

[00:32:02] Grow up is, it's a little bit condescending, but it also suggests, uh, you know, mature grow can be any direction. And I think that there's something really, uh, really to be said for the fact that it stopped saying grow up and he's hating. Now he's focused on grow. And like I said, grow could be in lumen out of lumen, uh, you know, somewhere entirely different, you know, like there's, it's very, it's like I said, every time something

[00:32:31] kind of happens and you see a little bit more depth of character, you know, a little less about what's going to happen, which I just, you know, for me, I'm, I'm, I love opening up a mystery box to find another one. Yeah. And, and I think grow up is still part of practicing how he's going to discipline Miss Wong in the future. Whereas grow is directed at himself. Yeah. Like that is a pivot from reciting something he used to discipline Miss Wong to a completely different statement directed at himself.

[00:33:01] And all still within the rubric of you use too many big words. Yeah. Really simplify your language. Yeah. Sorry. I missed your retort, John. This very brilliant writing. Yeah, exactly. Cause it's doing lay it's doing work on all these layers. Yeah. Let's move on to Dylan and Gretchen. Gretchen visits Dylan's any at work again, where she tells him about his outies hobbies. Dylan asks for a hug and the two kiss later. She lies to his Audi about seeing his any.

[00:33:32] My out is really diverse, huh? I, but I also love the fact that he, he doesn't get defensive. He just is genuinely optimistic and like open about his Audi. I think is what endears him to me and to Gretchen too. Where she's like, oh, he's not cynical. Right. Yeah. And I did a couple of really good things in this one too, because I really liked when

[00:33:59] they go back home, it could have been easy to just make Dylan a lump, but he's feeding his, his child, right? Like he's engaged to the degree that he, he can be like, we know he's not maybe the most engaged, but he's, he's there at the dinner table. He's, he's, he's feeding his child. He's not doing it apparently begrudgingly. So it makes it, it could have been so much easier to just have him sit on the couch and do nothing. And then you're like rooting for, for Gretchen and the innie, but there is something now that

[00:34:27] because you know that these are the same person that it, it, it helped complicate it even further for me that, you know, the idea that she's cheating on him with himself or at least contemplating it is, is pretty fascinating. And, and I, I think they did a really, like I said, they could have been easy to just make it like, Oh, let's just root for Gretchen and innie Dylan. And they left it still complicated. And I like that.

[00:34:49] I think too, that to any Dylan is way more of an adult than outie Dylan is. It was almost like there were four children around that dinner table, not three and two adults because he's like, I'm going to go on the lot and they're going to give me money. They're going to give me a car. And then she, then he's, she's finally, she's like just giving him a look and he's like, fine, I won't, you know, I won't, I won't commit.

[00:35:18] That's very, that's like a teenage, that's teenager thinking. I was going to say, David, I think I've heard that conversation between my brother and my mom, like when I was a kid and they were teenagers. Like I ate so teenager and, and yeah, Steve, like you're saying he's doing something, but feeding your kid is literally the bare minimum to not. Well, I, the only reason I bring that up is because he, cause there's a lot of families that aren't even at the same dinner table together. Yeah, it would have been really like the last time we saw him, he was on the couch.

[00:35:48] He hadn't even cut up the cookies, which kind of like painted it. Like, okay, now we kind of get a glimpse, but it could have been, if he's so completely detached, it's one thing to be sort of this lump. Um, but it, to be clear, any Dylan is sweet, but he's not great. Yeah. So, I mean, it's like, it's like Gretchen seeing a side that like, is like, again, a mere, a mere glimpse.

[00:36:14] And it's a romanticized version that, that is like, oh, well, look, he's, he's working hard and he's really good at his job. Well, that's what he says. He also thinks he's got muscles, you know, like he's, he's not exactly the best judge of everything that he does. But, uh, but I mean, he is definitely more charming. If you, I mean, this is, uh, maybe not for the millennial, but maybe for David. Have you ever seen the movie regarding Henry? Oh, I probably have.

[00:36:41] I gotta, I know that the name is ringing a bell, but carry on with your point. So, so it starts Harrison Ford. Harrison Ford is kind of this like cut. Oh yeah. With the kid. Right. Yeah. And he's a, he's a kind of a cutthroat, you know, business guy. I forget exactly. This is different. And then he is, he's in a supermarket or like a mini mart and he gets kind of, it gets kind of, uh, shot. He gets shot by it during a robbery and it affects his brain. And so now he's almost like very childlike and he's very innocent.

[00:37:10] And so all of a sudden, like his relationship with his family is a lot different, but he's, he's, uh, he's also just not like, I mean, he was super smart and all this stuff, but he's just not as much and like, he's not like slow, but he's just much more innocent and kind of, uh, childlike in some ways. And so now he wants to play and he wants to, and he has a better relationship. And he, like, he appreciates his wife and he appreciates his daughter more. And I'm that I was just bringing that brought me to that kind of film when I was watching

[00:37:37] the, the interaction between, uh, Gretchen and Dylan, which is like, cause that movie was kind of like, oh my gosh, this is my husband, but it's not, but I like it better now, but it's not because he got better. Something caused him to be this way. So it's like, it's kind of a complicated thing because it is a little bit of guilt. Like, well, you're, you're my husband, but you're also different. And I like this.

[00:38:02] Any Dylan in this moment, this facet that he's presenting and Nicole and I get this, get into this on a couple of the bonus episodes that we do where we talk about where personality lives, but also personality types and all these facets that we present to each other. He's presenting this point where he's like, he's really into her. He's really excited. We were, we all felt that way about our, we all happen to be married.

[00:38:30] Uh, you know, when we started our relationships, right? So, so he's being that thing that she fell in love with, but Audi, right? He suffered all of these, uh, you know, whether it's through his own fault or through the circumstances of life, he's been sort of ground down. Uh, one of the things that I saw around that dinner table was just a modern family trying to make ends meet and just get by day to day and the stress.

[00:39:00] Right. And the, the weight that that puts on the parents and, and how that kind of stress and worry just kills any vibes of romance or feelings of love. So she's falling in love with the guy that she probably first fell in love with because any Dylan is not broken by the world in the same way. Right. And she kind of can allow herself, right? I mean, you can justify that pretty easy. Yeah.

[00:39:26] Like, I mean, this is you, uh, it's just a version of you that the other, you doesn't know about, but I do. And so it's like, that's a, it's, it's like, you can't, as soon as she tells, as she, you know, says she didn't see him now it becomes right. Right. There's the deception. And that's, and that's fascinating. Right. Because it's like, you could just say you saw him. You don't have to necessarily say to what extent everything went or you could, and you could use that as a talking point.

[00:39:54] I mean, I don't, I mean, but it's, it's obviously like, it's, it's so well constructed that like, I, I, I totally get it. You know, I get this idea that it's almost like she's not at peace with it. Right. I mean, she, she's, she was all done up, you know, all like her hair was done when she went to see him. It was like, it felt like this was kind of already a premeditated, uh, you know, interaction like on, on her part too. Like she was kind of, she was willing open to it. Right.

[00:40:23] He, he initiated and she was receptive. Talk about face acting. As soon as he asks for the hug, she like, she, she says yes. And then she does this wonderful, like thing with her lips to kind of moisten them. Like, as soon as she did that, I was like, oh, they're going to kiss. Like, and like, so there's just so many little, little subtle acting cues that happen that really kind of help you like and sell it and really, really make it work. Yeah.

[00:40:50] You know, I, I just want to go back to like who Dylan is at home. Like, yeah, he, he, he was feeding his kid, but there is this level of what he, what is he talking about when he's doing it? He's talking about something for himself. Like that's, what's on his mind is what joy am I going to get? Right. And we don't put enough weight on like the mental burden we put up, put on women in heteronormative relationships that have children.

[00:41:17] Like the fact that they are often the one who has to keep track of the soccer schedule and the doctor's appointments and the groceries and the recipes and all this like that, even, even if there is a 50, 50 division of labor, the mental load of that is a lot too. And I think we discount that a lot. Uh, and whereas any Dylan is asking about his kids, I just always think of the, the, I've heard this reference, you know, the, the movie 1983 is Mr. Mom.

[00:41:45] Like they couldn't think of a word for dad because the idea of a, a man parenting his children was just too far fetched. So they had to call it Mr. Mom. That's pretty great. Yeah. There, there's that other element too, of like he, uh, like you say, he's really excited about his kids, the any version and, um, the, the Audi version. And it doesn't, it's not a 50, 50 split. She's working at night. We know that. Um, so that means she, and then he's not like available for a quick call during like,

[00:42:13] I would not, when my kids were young, I mean, there are plenty of times like I had to take this or I got to go. And like, cause you know, you know, my wife's overwhelmed or we're trying to get two places at once. And so you just, so she doesn't have really that option either. Right. So I mean, he's, he's gone for eight hours of the day or more of this and not available, right? Just not available, not available for a call or anything. And then, so she's having to do, so she's asking him to, to really just be responsible for a very small period of time. And she's probably laid everything out. Like she already did.

[00:42:42] We saw the last time they had the interaction. Did you, did you make those cookies? All you have to do is cut them up there in a tube. Right. And she's the one thinking about it. Right. Right. She's like, he has a thing you need, we need to do this thing. I'm putting you in charge of that. Right. I've got the schedule part of the job. Yeah. And your point, he was, she's like, just, you can test drive, like, like, like gave him an allowance, right? You can drive the car, but also like, I have to work, you know, to make these ends meet, I have to work.

[00:43:08] And then you have to just keep this job, stop biting people or whatever it is you're doing inside. The emotional labor of families and that kind of stuff. There was a West Wing episode where the character Toby Ziegler is being confronted by the woman that he's had a relationship and a baby with. And the woman's just like, he's like, well, just tell me what to do. And she's like, no, motherfucker. Right. That was the subject.

[00:43:38] You show up, you're a parent. Right. You don't have to ask permission to get involved, be involved and understand that you need to be there without asking my permission or what to do. You are as much a parent of this child as I am. Right. So stop asking. The house needs to be clean. Yeah. You figure out the steps to make it that way. It's yeah, it's obvious. It's clear that bills need to be, you know, these things need to be done.

[00:44:02] But then that ropes back around to the fact that that's the kind of stuff that's just such a killer for the romance side of our relationships. And it gets automatically passed down so easily. But look, we don't have to do a whole podcast on the patriarchy here. Okay. But I do think it's relevant to this relationship. Like it is super relevant to how Gretchen is viewing Innie and Outie Dylan. Yeah. Well, to your other point, I mean, talking about how much like the burden of all the things she has to do,

[00:44:31] and she has to set up cookies, just to set up all this and all that other things that kind of keep out in control. I mean, while she may be romantically and I do believe that she is she sees this as romantic because she probably doesn't get the intimacy that she would like. Or and it could be that he's not interested or who knows. But like this is an opportunity to be to be intimate in a way that's very pure and seems very like real. And he's enamored with her.

[00:44:53] But there's also this element of she gets to now go make sure he keeps his job and make sure that make sure that that, you know, so it's like it kind of still like there probably is that other burden to have just like, well, in order to just keep this going. I mean, it can't work if he's interviewing for for door jobs or whatever it is, I need him to be working. So there could be that that could have been like the initial and then now there's like a new, you know, element to it that that's appealing. And then, of course, we see that, right?

[00:45:22] We see the the effect of that is Dylan doesn't want to go on this adventure. He puts the he walks out of the room. Yeah, he actually doesn't answer the question and he just leaves. Yeah, he doesn't want to like he didn't bring the map with them. He left it where it was. And he says, I can't get in trouble right now. And right now, the idea that like because he doesn't want any any Dylan does not want to lose his privileges of being able to see Gretchen and he's not willing to. To upset that, which is a major turn.

[00:45:52] And it is a really like this whole thing is about like this episode is about divisions, too. Right. I mean, that's what they've they successfully turned an agent. Right. Yeah, right. We did have a correction for Dylan's plotline from last episode from Jonathan via email said I was just listening to us and Irv's message to Dylan read from O and D not from dad, which would make sense. That's just directions from O and D. Right. Right. Yeah.

[00:46:18] So sad because I wanted to be from dad because, you know, hey, hey, kids, what's for dinner? Like that would I know. I'm not. I looked back at it. I think they're right. I think Jonathan was right. Shall we move on to the dinner party? Did you bring the wine? Is it expensive? Yeah. Obviously, you were scratching the the price sticker off in the car. So, no, it's right. Right. Oh, my gosh.

[00:46:45] I thought I was wondering if he was going to get in trouble for bringing like questionable wine. I thought I mean, I think it was funny for I think Bert was just joking by saying like, oh, we like red wine expensive. Right. Oh, when you confront some at the front door, who are you? I got God. I was like, wait, what? Oh, really? He was a great gag. It was perfect. No, I immediately got the sense that he was joking because I just feel like they've started to get that rapport back already.

[00:47:15] I mean, the whole dinner. Incredible chemistry. But let me let me read a quick synopsis here before we get into it. Irving brings a bottle of wine to Bert's house for dinner where he meets Bert's husband Fields. He learns that Bert was severed to create a pure innie to go to heaven with Fields. Fields slips and suggests Bert started working at Lumen 20 years ago when severance was only created 12 years ago. He then drunkenly asks them if they had unprotected sex and proclaims that innies deserve love.

[00:47:45] While Irving is there, Mr. Drummond breaks into his home. Or as you all pointed out, keys into his home. Right. There was some chatter on the Discord about the fact that they recast Fields, Cecil Fields' character. Season one, it was a guy named Arthur Brooks. And when Bert's, I'm sorry, Irv, is looking through the window, I just, I have Bert and Ernie stuck in my head.

[00:48:13] And so I have to do this double-double to get it out to identify the right person. Right. But when Irv is looking through the window, it's clearly somebody else than who we get in this thing. Yeah, for sure. And I think they just brought in John Noble, who we might know as Denethor from Lord of the Rings. But I think, I guess he was in, what's this other show that people are talking about? Anyway, he's been in a bunch of other stuff.

[00:48:39] And I think they just figured that John Noble is going to be a better actor for whatever reason. I don't think there's anything nefarious going on in story. I think they just picked the right actor. Maybe they didn't, season one, they didn't know that they were going to do this dinner scene or something like that. Yeah, and it just, and it just, but it throws a wrench in all of us looking for every possible clue. I know. Exactly. Well, we do know now that it's not the guy from the exports hall. That was, it's not the dentist guy. The doctor.

[00:49:04] The doctor of Mald Boove wrote in and said, do you think there is any connection between the exports guy getting those dentist tools and the whole mouth wall room from season one? Oh, interesting. Remember that, all of the smiling dental pictures? Yeah. I think there is a connection, Mald Boove, which I'm always going to try to almost pronounce wrong. You know, Steve, Mald Boove is one of your biggest Properly Howard fans on the Discord. Is that right?

[00:49:34] He's actually gone back and he sent me the, it was very important work. It's mysterious work, but it's important. But he sent me the spreadsheets. He's gone back and he's pulled up all of your Properly Howard movie ratings for all the podcasts. That's incredible. And he did, he did use the transcripts and did some search functions. So he didn't actually have to listen to everything, but he did do a lot of work to get there.

[00:50:02] And then, so I now have that, that data set. So I'm not sure what we're going to do to it yet. Probably feed it to some LLM somewhere and see what it spits out at us. Okay. Well, good work, Mald Boove. Again, I can't, I can't get the letter straight every time I say that. So what are people's thoughts on this? Steve? The whole dinner party. So the dinner, yeah.

[00:50:27] So the dinner party is like, is one, and first off, it's just, it's, I love how dimly lit it is. I love the... It's the Rembrandt writing through the, or lighting throughout this entire last couple of episodes. It's this really dark lit thing with the face. It's incredible. And to get the textures and the tones of the skin under that kind of lighting, these people are absolute top class production.

[00:50:51] The digital, the DP, the camera operator, the lighting grip, everybody is doing precise work and it shows. Sorry, I'm done. No, this, so, I mean, this is one of the three Audi or any romances realized in the Audi world in this episode. Right? I mean, we get, we do have a Helena, Mark, Scout interaction.

[00:51:18] We, Dylan, who's got a now relationship, any Dylan has a relationship with his wife and Audi Dylan has a relationship with his wife as well, obviously. And then now we have Bert and Irv coming together. So like, I love how all three have, like all these relationships inside are now coming outside and how they're interacting with each other very different. But the Bert and Irving one, it's remarkable how they have it for each other. Right?

[00:51:47] Um, that's not the case that I'm getting from Mark to Helena, but I got maybe some of that from Helena to Mark. So I'm, but obviously she's, she was manipulating the whole thing. So she's, she's had a vantage point that the others do not. Right? So like Mark and Helena do not run into each other.

[00:52:06] Um, like Bert and Irv do, our assumption being of course, that Bert and Irv do not have any recollection of their relationship inside, but it is complicated by the idea that not everything that we understand from Bert seems to be true. When, when, when field says 20 years, he says 20 years ago with your Lumen partner. Yeah. I, I, I remember that word partner and I was like, huh? What? So that also basically goes, shut the fuck up. Right.

[00:52:36] So, so that suggests that, that he did not obviously not start his career as a severed employee. Um, see, that's the way I, I interpreted it. He could have been working for Lumen, just not as a severed employee. Right. And, um, that seems odd, especially that like whatever his, you know, so the other, the only other real Lumen employee that we know that is severed is, is Helena. Right.

[00:53:02] Um, and, uh, and she had a little more agency. So I don't know if he did. I mean, him getting fired is interesting because, um, like, so I think what we take from this is the possibility that, uh, that Bert is in on something. Like you could read it that way. Right. Um, they, they, they, they underlay some ominous music as he's standing in the doorway. We've seen him sort of shady in the car. So they're giving us visual and auditory clues.

[00:53:32] That would lead us to a conclusion that Bert is shady. At least the, at least the possibility. Exactly. And then you've got, and especially because from what little we know about herbs, uh, out, outie is, it seems pretty methodical. It seems pretty routine oriented. This breaks routine. Hmm. And in order for it to, and if his routine can be broken, then his, then his house can be entered. So. Sorry. Sorry.

[00:53:57] I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I shortened it to Irv. We're, we're, we're tight like that. I can, I can refer to Irving as Irv now. Yeah. So. Yeah. Did Drummond get, was that a setup for Drummond to, to do? So the, because Drummond goes and Drummond knows what to look for. Hmm. Which is another interesting thing, right? Like, I mean, it's, we, we didn't spend a lot of time for him fumbling around, but he went right into the trunk. And, uh, did he have keys for the trunk?

[00:54:27] Because they don't show, we can't see it, but it feel, but he unlocks it nonetheless. Right. He has enough frolic in that hand. A lot. So something that they, they know there's a point to go after Irving and it, and it could have been as a result of the whole Ortbo situation. But, uh, the, any figuring out something doesn't necessarily mean that the Audi is, uh, is at fault.

[00:54:54] So, I, but we know that, uh, you know, we hear about the whole mind collective again, and this one that, you know, they bring it up, which I think is important because I, that's kind of what we're assuming that they're going to be. There's somebody connected to the whole mind collective that, that Irving is working with. I mean, cause just, cause we don't know what else it could be. Um, so I think, I think it's important that that gets brought up again. Um, and, uh, you know, uh, Bert sort of, sort of pooh-poohs that group.

[00:55:22] Um, there isn't, I mean, it's an, it's one thing that didn't seem to get brought up. I don't think is Irving did not mention that he's fired. Right. Right. Um, but, but it's clear, not only do we know that Bert was, was fired, but we know why he was fired and fields reveals like what I did you too, or the reason for it. And, uh, I mean, just, this is where I think Anthony would be a lot of fun.

[00:55:51] So we can start talking about some of the, the more, uh, the religious aspects of it, but I do find it very fascinating that the, um, uh, that, that, uh, Bert and fields are at least fields is very religious. Yeah. Um, so much so that he's still, he's consulting with his pastor about this very thing, not just like, first off the idea that as if the pastor was listening to us.

[00:56:15] And the thing is, this is a very common, I don't know how well-versed you are in, in, uh, church or attending church, but it's very common to go to a church service and it's presented in such a way that there will be multiple people that'll be like, oh my gosh, pastor. It's like, you were speaking right to me, God was speaking right to me. So the idea that like, so the initial thought is like, as if the pastor had heard us, he talks about this.

[00:56:39] So one part, you know, the, the, the lumen, uh, um, conspiracy side says, well, he probably was listening, but on the flip side, um, it's not atypical for, uh, you know, people going to church to believe or hear something and have it resonate in such a way that they, they go, wow. It's like, you know, so, so that one doesn't, that one could be a clue, but it could also not be a clue. It could be more of just a case of this. They're, they're very religious and they're, they're looking for God everywhere.

[00:57:08] And God will, and the more you look for God, the more he'll show up if you're, if you, you know, and that's, so I think there's that aspect of it. I love the idea that he says, we're not zealots. It's like, no, but if, but if, if the, if the assumption is if we're taking the story at face value, uh, we could say he worked at Lumen for eight years.

[00:57:30] He was, uh, uh, a scoundrel of some sort and so much so that they, you know, and, and the thing is, and I'm sure that they lit him with flames behind him. Right. And Burt himself was convinced he was going to hell. Right. Like not, not just Fields saying you're going to hell, but, but Burt is himself being like, I am condemned.

[00:57:50] And I'm not going to pretend to know a lot about the specifics of the Lutheran, um, church, but the Lutheran church is still within the realms of, I think, Protestantism, which would. Yeah, more, it's like Catholic light. Yeah. It's Catholic, it's Catholic light with, you know, it's with, with a little bit of, with a little bit of Protestant, uh, freedoms, but it's, it's a little bit of ritual, but, but the idea of atonement and forgiveness are available.

[00:58:14] So that's where I find, like, that's the part that got, had me the most vexed, this idea that, well, maybe if we, if we sever you, we'll give you any, a chance to, to, to find heaven and redemption, which suggests to me that whatever this scoundrel behavior is might still be continuing. And it's something he can't get rid of, but it would be enough to, to, to, to, it's an unforgivable thing because he's not atoning for it either by choice or he can't.

[00:58:40] And that's, that's the part where I was like, what is, what, like, severance is a huge, uh, leap to sit there and say, well, you couldn't just say some Hail Marys or you couldn't do this type of atonement, which, you know, which I think is interesting because we kind of saw this idea of penance and atonement with Milchick earlier. Um, but so this was like, like the fail, like the, the nuclear option of, of salvation. So I found that very interesting.

[00:59:05] So I was just trying to figure out, um, cause we've introduced a new, we've introduced a specific religion, right? I mean, that's something that we've talked about parallels with Scientology and some of the, and, uh, Mormonism. My mother was a Catholic too. Was, was right. Yeah. True. Yeah. Yeah. And so this one is like so much so that they're like right into it. Like, this is it. This, these, they are, they're actively going to church and trying to reconcile or the Bert's behavior versus, uh, his eternity.

[00:59:35] So it's a, it's, it's a very odd dinner. And, uh, I was really taken with this, both the two ideas that they've brought out for us too, which is that innies have a soul separate from the outies and that they are salvationable. I guess you could say, they're, they're, they're, they're savable.

[01:00:00] Uh, and then this idea that innies are deserving of happiness. Now they should, they have, they, they, I forget what the exact line was. It was something along the lines of that. They, they should have the right to experience happiness or something like that. And the, what was it?

[01:00:18] Two episodes ago when Drummond was meeting with Helena and they were talking about the real purpose of innies and that, you know, and just the, the, that whole general attitude that they are not whole persons and that they do not deserve any of this. And at the same time, we're exploring this question of happiness with, uh, Hellie and Mark, right?

[01:00:45] These two sort of love struck teenagers that, you know, just, I love it when they're walking down the hall and they're both sort of, their hair sort of messed up and they're like, wow. Sex hair. Yeah, exactly. It was awesome. But the, that, that the, that the show decided to go there with this sort of religion and philosophy.

[01:01:03] Well, and it does, and it is complicated by the idea that if the intent was to have your husband severed so that you could spend eternity with him to give his, any soul an opportunity for redemption, then how do you, and then, but, but then he reconciles. I was like, well, I talked to the pastor and it's okay that you had, uh, sex with somebody else. Then you essentially cheated on me because they didn't know any better and they deserve happiness.

[01:01:30] So it's like, which does bring up the question of the pastor that does add the element of, of, of, it's interesting that a pastor would, uh, preach severance. Mm-hmm. That would, so there's. Well, where, was it, I took it to be that, that they were addressing the concern of, hey, there's this other person inhabiting the same body. And.

[01:01:57] Yeah, I mean, even still, it sounded like the sermon included the concept of severance, right? Right, yeah, yeah, for sure. And, and it, and it was in, in this, in one way, it was an endorsement, um, for, that it was not, at least not an obstacle to salvation. And the idea that that's coming from the pulpit for a lot of folks, if you're somebody who's looking for spiritual guidance, I mean, does this feel like a separation of church and state type thing? You know, not necessarily.

[01:02:25] Right, and so if you're using, if you can use religious, religion as an endorsement, and if this pastor is, is like helping, maybe it's just, it could just be counsel, but because we've seen politicians involved with lumen, um, we see that lumen has their hands in a lot of different aspects of this, of this outside world. So much so that the, um, gauge on the blood pressure cuff was a lumen product. Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[01:02:52] Yeah, and I mean, like even the, the cul-de-sacs, they're, they're lumen shapes and, you know, all that different. And so, I mean, there's, it wouldn't, it wouldn't be shocking that you could have, uh, you know, that they could infiltrate the, the, the church as well. Yeah, so, so that's, adds another, like, again, it adds more complication. It also makes you wonder about the nature of, uh, of their, of their faith and who, you know, what kind of guidance they're seeking.

[01:03:17] Um, and like, if you're, if you can create a new soul by severing, can humans create life now? Because that sounds rural against the current teachings of Christian churches that I know. Ooh, it's hard on that. Yeah. Right, because the idea is that the soul is essentially, like, I mean, the soul would be the soul, right? I mean, if you, if, it is. Right, that is the human, according to Christianity. Like, that body is just this, you know, castaway thing.

[01:03:42] But what's important is the soul, if you can create another soul, an independent soul that can go to heaven or hell on its own, that, to me, would say you're creating life. Right. Yeah, no, that's a great, that's a great point. Uh, I wanted to call something out really quick.

[01:04:00] The, when Irv walks in, in one of the frames of the shot, there's a painting of a clownish figure on the sort of half wall that leads into the kitchen area. Yeah. And I grabbed the shot and threw it into, uh, the, the internets to see what it was. And John, I don't know if I'm pronouncing this right. Uh, Agnello? Angelo? I put it in the- I think it's on yellow. Agnello.

[01:04:28] So it's Agnello Clown by Robert, uh, Springfels, painted in 1949. And, uh, I think I, did I put a, I might've put this in our Discord, but anyway, it's a, a person sort of in a white long sleeve turtleneck with sort of a red boosty girdle thing with this sort of half clown makeup, a red nose and a white mouth and some, some face paint over.

[01:04:55] And I thought, huh, you know, again, these, these guys don't put anything on screen that they don't mean to. So I was like, okay, whatever. This is an interesting painting. But then I just looked up the word, Angelo. It means lamb. Just like, oh, come on, you guys. Are you serious? So, you know, did, did, uh, the, the lamb clown here in, in, is that just somebody in production having fun or, you know, what's going on here?

[01:05:22] Cause it didn't play a central part, but it was on the camera and anything in frame is fair game. Yeah. Nothing's an accident. Well, and then when you're dealing with Bert from O and D and, and, uh, how important. Certain paintings are. It feels like, like none of that would be accidental. Exactly. Also. So my wife raises this, this thing, and I'm about to open another can of worms. And I was about to over front from the section and welcome to another 10 minutes. But my, my wife, Maya, she raised the point. What if Bert is unsevered?

[01:05:49] And the more we talk about this, the more I'm convinced that she's right. The more I think that Fields thinks that Bert is severed. But Bert is not severed. Yeah. Perhaps Bert had something to do with creating severance. Uh-huh. Um, first of all, I don't think they would have given Bert the real reason that he was fired. I don't think they'd say you're actually in love with someone on the inside. That, first of all, invites a lawsuit on the company. Like how, how closely are you supervising my innie?

[01:06:20] Um, invites, you know, all these kinds of questions of, of what they're doing down there. And they, they never tell anybody anything, right? Mark got hit in the head and they said, you slipped and fell. You know, he fell off a rope when he got wet. Um, yeah, that would be the first, the first moment of true honesty from Lumen. And that seems out of character. Right. Exactly. And it just feels so off to me. He feels so comfortable with Irving already when he meets him and not just in like, I,

[01:06:48] I want to be charmed by you, but in a, I already know you way. Can we get rid of fields? Come on. What are you talking? You know? Yeah. No, I, and that's, that, that, that really tracks because I did take, that was like, how are they picking up at least, especially from Bert's perspective, right? Where it seemed to leave off. And yeah, Irving is cautious, but not Bert. Right. I don't know. No.

[01:07:18] Bert also seemed to have a little bit of, uh, a leeway in there. Yeah. In terms of where he could go and whatnot. And Joe Herbers on our discord said maybe Bert was one of the first severed before it was made public. I think that could be it. Uh, I could go either way on this, but I think it would be cool if he was unsevered. And what something else my wife suggested is what if every unit has an unsevered employee who may be management, but may not be management.

[01:07:46] And you might just not know just to like watch you. Right. There's one in there just to watch you. Well, we don't know who O and D reported to. Right. Right. Exactly. And, and like Milchick doesn't seem to give a fuck about anybody else besides MDR. Right. Like, right. I don't think Milchick or Cobell really cared about anything but MDR as far as we've seen, unless we haven't seen something, but I, I just feel like they're hyper focused on that unit.

[01:08:13] Um, and Bim on the discord also said, Bert is definitely suspicious both the slip and how long he worked at Lumen and Mr. Drummond breaking into Irv's house while he wasn't there. Was it, was it an intentional ruse by Bert to invite him over? Yep. Yeah. That's kind of where I was, I was starting to land, but again, the show gives itself. Yeah. Anyway, those are my skills. Should I do the break? You know, David, you're jumping the gun on me. Sorry. Sorry.

[01:08:42] Let's take a break since David's are already here. Uh, let's take a break. We'll be right back in a minute. Hey everyone. David here. And like a certain author once wrote, your so-called boss may own the clock that taunts you from the wall, but the hour is yours.

[01:09:10] And we're using our hours to bring you comprehensive coverage of Severance season two. Here's something really simple. We're doing a season pass for just five bucks. That's it. One payment, no subscription, no complexity. So what exactly is a season pass? It's a dedicated ad-free feed that gives you permanent access to all of our weekly episodes

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[01:11:01] That is the version that needs to listen most. And we're back. So we've got to talk about basically the Mark and Helly of it all. I'm going to do the innie parts first, and then we're going to go into the Audi parts.

[01:11:28] So Mark tells Helly what's been going on and confesses that he shared vessels with her Audi at the Orpo. She goes off distraught, but the two later reconcile. She asks him for her own memory, and the two make love. Mark gets a nosebleed and goes to Miss Huang for first aid before popping back into his Audi's consciousness at home. Okay. So. This part's honestly kind of simple. It is, actually.

[01:11:58] Yeah. The other part's the hard part to talk about. Or the more interesting part. This is just, I will say that Mark S. seems to be kind of a stand-up guy because he gives the right response when she has that questioning moment of like, oh, what was it like with her? You know, is it the same? And he gives her, you know, he just kisses her and a sweet, you know, he's like, no,

[01:12:28] I'm with you. I'm not thinking about her. I'm, you know, we're, this is us together here in this moment. And I just thought, wow, that's a, that was a very emotionally mature thing for young Mark S. to do. But I did enjoy when he offered her the play-by-play. Right. You want me to describe what happened? Yeah. That's what this podcast should be. We just describe each shot of the episode in great detail. You don't have to watch it. There are podcasts that do that. I know.

[01:12:58] Painful. And in terms of like, just acting chops. I mean, again, we, we're talking a lot about, um, you know, Britt Lauer and she's great. Uh, and what the, with Adam Scott and Britt Lauer, uh, what they do in that little makeshift tent, how they interact with each other, how, how everything is framed to make it feel like so awkward. Like it's crazy to watch people of that age, uh, create a scene that could have easily been a coming of age movie.

[01:13:28] And, and it felt so authentic. And like he, you know, he, he, he doubles down on consent at one point, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I noticed that. Yes. And that's kind of a really important moment for sure. Uh, for, for, for those two. Um, and it's just like, it's such a, uh, a different scene than, um, the, the last one. I mean, like in terms of like how they're both, like, it's like, if there's any question, like,

[01:13:56] is this Hellie or, uh, it's like, no, it's very clear. These are very, like, they're very youthful in the way that they interact with each other. And they're going for this big, this big experience together and it's really well done. And I think it really helps to complicate who you're rooting for and what relationship you're rooting for, because this whole thing is now really supposed to be laser focused on a mission to find Ms. Casey slash Gemma slash this is Mark's wife.

[01:14:26] Yet there's a relationship within this world now that is like, it's been really well presented and you're like, okay, now it's those two. Good. They're back. Wait, now they got to go find his wife. Like it, it just, it adds a layer of complication from a, uh, from an audience member that I just, it's, it's a real spin on the office romance trope of, uh, television shows, doesn't it? Totally.

[01:14:51] Because if, if for this to work, because I mean, Sam and Diane have nothing on Mark and Nelly. Well, and the funny thing is, is like any Mark is so like easy to, to, to root for. Right. And Mark Scout is, I mean, we root for him because of, of like kind of just the world he's in and, and, and he's, he's our protagonist, but there's another version of him that you're rooting for in a different kind of way.

[01:15:18] And it's, it's crazy to watch two shows in one, right? I mean, it's, it's so many different shows in one really, and it's, it's a wild experience to go through because then we're going to have to come to some sort of moment where, where these crossroads are going to cause an issue. Like one of the major issues is with him is, is Helena came in and disrupted everything and helped create the divide, uh, wasn't honest at some point. I assume he's going to reintegrate. And how is he going to present that?

[01:15:48] Because he hasn't mentioned anything about why he believes he has a nosebleed or any hallucinations to her. He doesn't know why he's happening, but he's not sharing that with her. So there is an element from Mark that is kind of holding something back. Right. And, uh, and how is that going to play out once? Like, I don't know what reintegration looks like. I don't know how the two marks communicate to each other or how, if, you know, how the

[01:16:16] memories are going to work, but is he going to be his forthright? Have either of you seen, uh, one of the best picture noms this year for the Oscars, The Substance? That's the one with Demi Moore. David, you know I haven't seen it yet. Uh, it, it'll add some interesting thoughts if you do end up watching it because it's, it is about this two person split kind of thing, but connected. I won't say any more than that, uh, to not spoil the movie, but it, it is pretty interesting

[01:16:45] along those lines. Uh, which I really want to see it. I've heard great things about it. It's, uh, if, if you have any squeamishness around body horror stuff, um, you may end up be looking away quite a lot. I don't usually, but I I've been told that enough to where I'm like, well, that's very intriguing. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:17:05] Uh, I just, I'm so taken with this, uh, well, you said before Steve, the, you know, what does reintegration look like? Literally the way that they're making it look in the show is again, phenomenal. I did some frame by frames looking at the sequences whenever Mark has these flashbacks

[01:17:32] and yeah, we have digital technology, digital painting and you know, all these kinds of things. So we can bring in and out backgrounds, but what I really love, and you, you kind of said something about along this line before, I think John was that they're not messing around with us. They're not hiding things in the, in those flashback frames that there, there's nothing there that isn't there. Right. The flashbacks are exactly the, these crossover flashback events. There's nothing else hidden in those scenes. Right. Right.

[01:18:00] But the way that they do them, the way the camera shakes, the way that the sound vibrates, the way that the, the, the two worlds are crossing back and forth between each other is so visually interesting and unnerving at the same time. And, and to see it happening more and more, I was like, okay, whoa, wait a minute. This is weird. He's like, he's with Miss Wong or is he with Raga be, you know? Yeah. And, and messing with the time aspect of it too, right?

[01:18:30] Because like some of it, we like when he's the any, we, we were assuming he's not having a memory per se, but it's hard to know. Right. Like he could be remembering the beginning, but like it's, it's, I mean, it's all, I guess their memories, but like you don't know when you're watching something or when you're watching something through the reintegration memory and which makes you also wonder like how everything is actually happening. So I want to put a pin in that too, because there's a scene.

[01:18:58] I have a question about when we get to Heli and Helena and Mark when they're at the restaurant, but I don't know if we have anything else on this sequence on this part. I think we can basically move on. I mean, I, what, one thing I just want to say, I love the transition. The fact that we're in, we think we're in the real thing, but we're actually in the memory. Very cool. So Audi Mark here, having been reassured by Rigabi that reintegration is working. Mark wakes up abruptly from a memory of receiving first aid at work.

[01:19:28] Rigabi suggests they flood the chip, but Mark freaks out and goes to get Chinese food. There he eats a mountain of food before Helena Egan joins him and tries to connect. Mark rushes home to tell Rigabi to do the procedure. She does. And it begins to work just as Devin knocks on his door. Against Rigabi's advice, he answers it and argues with Devin before going into a seizure. And can I just say, he walks into Rigabi, he goes, let's do it.

[01:19:56] And she's like, my guy, I'm hanging with my friends, Ben and Jerry. Exactly. What are we doing here? Totally. I love her so much. Which is driving my wife nuts. She's like, this is in his basement. This doesn't feel sanitary. Just eat an ice cream. At least it's not cumin-blazed ham. Which would probably stink up the place.

[01:20:19] Anyway, when Mark and Helena are talking in the restaurant, there's a beautifully framed shot, of course, of them sort of face-to-face, sort of in mirror of each other. And they play a little bit of sound effects and there's a little something going on. And I was like, whoa, is he having a reintegration moment that they're not telling us about? I saw that, too. He stays on her.

[01:20:48] And that sort of becomes the move to leave. Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. I actually read it. So I had the same thought at first. But upon a rewatch, I think what was actually happening was this is a guy who was told he had sex with this woman and that she's one of the most powerful people. But this is Audi, Mark. He doesn't know. Yeah, he was told. Remember, he flipped in and Milchick yelled at him instead of Anymark. Towards the end of that episode, it was Audi, Mark at work.

[01:21:18] In the elevator? Yeah, that was Audi, Mark at the elevator. Was it? Oh, I think it was Anymark. I thought it was Anymark. Oh, no, I think this was Audi, Mark at the elevator. Because even Anymark says it in the bathroom stall. I think it was Anymark. I think it was both then. Because the posture is different. He leaves early. He reacts with the bullshit Gazette thing. I think it's really like Anymark has the memory, but I think Audi, Mark saw that too.

[01:21:47] And so what I was understanding from this was I know I've had sex with this woman. This woman well knows who I am. And she is standing there like I'm a stranger. And just being totally ice cold about this. And I think he was so disgusted by that that he was angry and he was fired up and he ran home to Rugabi to go and do it. Yeah, I didn't read it that way because I just didn't.

[01:22:14] I did not think that Audi, Mark had that knowledge. I mean, last episode, that's how we were discussing it. I see what you're saying this episode on like Anymark knows. But at the same time, since they're being reintegrated, could it be that that was a moment of true reintegration? Well, and that's what I'm wondering is when he's standing there looking at her and he pauses and there's this long pause. Did he have a reintegration moment when he realizes that he's been intimate with this woman or knows something?

[01:22:44] You know, like, you know. And it's the one time that he's having a reintegration moment that they don't show us. So that sort of breaks the understanding that we have with the showrunners that we're going to be on this journey with Mark. But if they did that, I would be fine with it as a secret sort of thing. I don't know. I have a question. Yeah. I read the interaction as he doesn't know.

[01:23:09] I read the interaction as he feels like it's another lumen manipulation, another lumen. For sure. Using my wife as a prop. And I also read it as she was coming maybe to flirt. Yeah.

[01:23:31] And I'm thinking that maybe Helena, as much as she may have been manipulating Mark towards a cold harbor end, I still think it was for herself. And I mean, he responds pretty boldly, right? And like, oh, you're going to introduce me to dad already, right? And there's just like a very interesting banter. That was so good. They were like on fire.

[01:23:56] And then she says, well, you'd be the first one, which to me is a big reveal. Right. Yeah, that's true. Totally. That actually takes me to like, oh, I think she is smitten with Mark. I think it's a yes and, right? Like she may say that they're animals, but I think she does protest too much, right? And this feels like this was not the typical Helena that we see interacting with people.

[01:24:27] She's, I mean, again, she could be the devil. And I do think that she might very well be. But I think that there might have been a little bit of like, you know, she dominated this guy and she's coming back. And there's something sinister about that whole thing. And I don't know, man. It's like, it's an interesting read, though, if there's a crossover.

[01:24:50] Because he does have a, when he gets flooded, he sees, he goes to the memory of him and Heli are having sex. Which to me, I thought I read that as that's his first vision of that. Because then it starts to jumble up with Gemma in those mixes. Which, again, as an audience member, the viewer, I get all like, geez, what relationship am I rooting for? And how is this going to all play out? But didn't he already remember that?

[01:25:20] Like, at the beginning of him waking up? Like, I thought we were experiencing that memory alongside with him. You know, he's waking up from the first aid kit right after they had sex. And Miss Wong is going, well, what were you doing when you got your nosebleed? Well, I guess that's what I think. That's what I'm not sure about the show. Like, did we watch that all through his memory? Or did we pick up a port? Like, when it starts to tweak is when the memory is starting up.

[01:25:48] Because when he says to her, he says, I was on a desk. I was getting first aid. I would think that there'd be. And I also just went through, you know, I don't think he's got these long, protracted moments. I think that it's like, when we see those shifts. Like, in the break room, when he sees his little vials of chicken noodle soup instead of Lumen sanctioned meals. And that's how I'm reading it. But again, it's kind of hard to know. Because not everybody is being honest with each other on the show either.

[01:26:17] Speaking of Gemma's name, did she intentionally screw up the name? Or did she really not know? And regardless, their banter was so on fire and so funny. And the writing with, going back really quick with Irv and Fields and Bert. Again, like, haven't you had enough? And of course he knows history.

[01:26:46] Like, the way they depicted a very old relationship between Bert and Cecil was so accurate and just so on point and so accurate. But then we jump over to Helena and Mark and their repartee right off the bat. Oh, I wouldn't know. I don't know anything about my work. Like, all of that had me in stitches. It was so good.

[01:27:13] But then she screws it all up by starting to talk about his dead wife. Oh, I'm so sorry about it, whatever. And then she gets the name wrong. What is that? Like, was that intentional? Or did she just... Is she so... Does she just have two left feet when it comes to relationship banter? I don't know. I'll tell you why it has to be intentional. It's because this woman spent weeks... Well, maybe not weeks.

[01:27:39] She spent days watching footage of herself to mimic herself to convince everybody that she was her innie. This woman is not someone who doesn't pay attention to details. She will get every detail right. If you don't think she looked up every detail about Mark's life, you're mistaken. Yeah, that's why I was like, wait, that's not a mistake. That you make. No. When you're Helen Egan, heir apparent to the Lumen Empire. Right.

[01:28:09] But if you're trying to flirt with Mark Scout, and you're trying to maintain maybe some level, you definitely won't... I mean, if you say Hannah instead of Gemma, what that suggests is, look, I work there. Yeah, it's my company. But I don't know the details of you. I don't know the details of all this stuff. I'm kind of on a need-to-know basis.

[01:28:30] So if you're looking to have some sort of banter that might turn into something romantic, perhaps, maybe you feign that you... Maybe you don't let out that I watch video of us kissing over and over and over again. Right. So there's this whole thing about car crashes. A lot of people are talking about car crashes now. I've seen theories online that maybe Mark killed Gemma accidentally. There's been a lot of references to his drinking, including in this episode.

[01:29:00] There was one... Because I had always taken his drinking as a result of the... That's right. Right. You know, he's self-medicating. But that's me making that up. I don't have any evidence for one or another. Right. And I don't know about that. And also, Mark and Devin's... I believe dad was supposed to be an alcoholic. And Devin said Mark's a lot like his father in another instance. So I wonder if Mark had an alcohol problem that resulted in the death of Gemma.

[01:29:26] And he's either repressing that or something else. It would also... I think someone pointed out online, it would explain some of the anger that Devin felt about it when talking to Mark about it. You know, you're not the only one that's affected this kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Maureen D on the Discord said, I've been thinking about the Lexington letter on this subject. There's a school bus driver who's stuck alone in the snow who says out loud that she hates her job.

[01:29:56] Suddenly, on the radio, there's an ad for a Lumen severed job. Just like the pastor. Like the radio heard her say that she hates her job. What if Gemma hated her job too? And what if she was severed? There's a severed person in the Lexington letter who dies in a car accident. And in the new credits, there's a car on the ice near the lake. Someone on YouTube thought it was Cobell's car. But what if it's Gemma's car? Maybe these car accidents are related.

[01:30:21] Point being also that it's not just that they snatched Gemma's body, but that they staged the accident in the first place. I'm going to add to this from Maureen saying that in Burt's... Sorry. Oh my God. Now I'm doing it. Maybe you've infected me. In Irv's notes, there are references to car accidents and settlements in that. I have...

[01:30:40] I screenshotted all of those papers that were in Irv's locker and put them on the macro data refinement theory channel on our Discord. And I'm sure the Reddits have them as well, but they're there if you're on our Discord. Yeah. So what's everybody thinking about this? Are the car crashes part of the big severance scheme? Um... It's a tried and true mustache twirling tactic.

[01:31:11] You know? If you're evil bad guys and you want to do stuff to people, you know, cutting some brake lines, it works. A lot of old cars. A lot of old cars, that brake lines can be cut quite easily. Not like these newfangled things with... Right. ...you know, disc brakes and stuff, whatever. I don't know. That's an interesting... I mean, um... That's... And that's... I guess... It becomes one of those... Like, everything's a mystery, right? So it depends on how much, uh...

[01:31:41] Time we want to dive into each aspect of... You know, I mean, you know... We were obsessed with goats last season, and maybe this season's cars. I don't know. We're going to find out what's going to be the thing that takes us along here. I mean... There's only one... Just real quick. Uh... There's only one... Uh... Reference to a car crash in the papers that... Yeah. Um... And that's for a Doug Coleman, who was...

[01:32:10] Who had a car crash in 2007 with a fractured left hand. So... Lawsuit with the city regarding a stop sign placement. So it doesn't say that it's... So I don't know how far I'd take the car crash theories. Well, that's not the only... I mean, that's part... The Irving stuff is one clue in a pattern that we're seeing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just don't know that it's... It's, um... I don't know how strong it is, personally. I hear you. I hear you. I'm with you. Interesting, though.

[01:32:39] I mean, definitely tracking it. Ken W. wrote in, as we're recording, said, Come on, seven crying faces and WTF. So that's how it's making people feel right now. Regarding what? The entire episode, I think. Okay. Great feedback. Thanks, Ken. Thank you, Ken. Thanks for being a subscriber. Yes. David was upset that he was already crying about this podcast.

[01:33:11] All right. Anything else to say about the dinner scene, or do you want to talk quickly about the reintegration scene? I just love that whole restaurant sequence. It was just... The whole thing was great. Visually, the F you when he's walking out. The... Music was great. The banter. Just the comedy that they had. It was... The whole thing was phenomenal. Yeah, and I just really... It's one of those things where I can't tell, and they're doing such a good job acting

[01:33:40] and giving us not enough details. Like, I read it as Helena coming maybe to be a little flirty, but at the same time, she seems so diabolical that it could, you know, could be something else altogether. It's like she's... Because she wanted to get back. She wanted to go back in as herself, and they wouldn't let her. So I kind of read that as like, well, she's going to still try to... Maybe she's still going to try to get involved.

[01:34:09] And man, what is this market? Mark's got people from Lumen trying to follow him everywhere. Yeah. Especially the ladies. Right. There's like 200 people in this town. The dating market. There is no kinder. Cure Tinder. She's my special lady friend, man. Sorry, that was a Big Lebowski cut. That's right. But if you could do it with a... I've never seen the Big Lebowski, but I've been to a Big Lebowski-themed bar in Scotland,

[01:34:38] which is the weirdest thing I can say about that. Now you just have to say special lady friend in Christopher Walken's diction. I don't know. All I did was have a bunch of white Russians in different flavors that were quotes from a movie that I didn't know. So... Fabulous. It was a good time. I mean, so this reintegration scene. I mean, Mark... I just got to say, Mark sucks. Like, he is the worst friend.

[01:35:08] He is the friend who, like, wants your help when he wants it and wants you to fuck off when he doesn't want it. Like, he is extremely inconsiderate to his sister, to Rigabi, to everybody around. Well, Rigabi did want to drill into his head and flood it. I mean... I agree. There are limits. But he is the guy who goes, you know, jump when I say jump. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and also, I don't know. I mean, Rigabi looks like she's... She's a full-on interviewer experiment.

[01:35:37] This is... I mean, Rigabi wants to go, go, go, right? And I think we get a little bit more revealed about Rigabi. Like, she's got other intentions here. Like, she will... She'll sacrifice a person. You know? I mean, she wants this to work. And it makes me wonder if she really has had much success. You know, I mean, like I said, we only think we know about... We only know about PD. But she seemed to indicate that, like, oh, it's getting better. Like, there might have been other trials, right?

[01:36:07] But she had been a Lumen employee, correct? Right. Right. But this is not Lumen equipment, I'm assuming. No. This is Radio Shack equipment. Candy! So, yeah. It's... I think that there's something about, like, she just wants to keep going. And I understand. Like, he's just, like... He's got... He's been trembling. He's got... You know, he's vibrating. All these different things are going on. And then she's like, well, here's what we could do. We could just open up your head again. There's already a hole. There's already a hole there. There's like, yeah, I mean,

[01:36:36] just be ashamed to waste this head hole. Oh, man. Yeah, and I was just trying to watch The Substance the other day. And then I had to stop it. And then going into this episode, it was actually the same night. I'm like, oh, man, what's going on? Younger days, I didn't have as much problem with the body horror, but something about getting older... Oh, I hate it. I have to confess that I closed my eyes and I told my wife to describe what was happening to me. Too bad there's not a podcast

[01:37:06] that could just describe the... Well, but I have to outline the podcast. So I need someone to tell me what happened. It wasn't that long, though. What is Rigabe's motivation? Is she just a whole mind zealot or what? She's Frankenstein. Yeah, I mean, it definitely had some Dr. Frankenstein vibes, like the way she was just so locked in and she's looking over at the screen and really well done, and the acting and that whole thing.

[01:37:36] And it really added a layer of tension besides just the body horror stuff that you referenced, but just like, she's in the head, you know? And it's like, there's so many things about like... Yeah, and then he pops up, she's like, well, you can't move that fast. Like, well, I didn't hear that instruction. You know? And it's like, also, maybe strap his head down. Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, he's got a lot of agency in this operation. Like, he's fully awake as they're, you know,

[01:38:05] she's getting ready to flood his chip. So I empathize with Mark a little bit in this one, just because that seems like a real rough situation. I think the key at the end of this episode, though, is the fact that now Ragabi and Devin are introduced to each other. Because in Mark's world, right, he's been keeping... He had a pretty big firewall up in between the two. Not for that, not for long, right? Because Ragabi's only recently moved in. But, I mean,

[01:38:37] he's been with her through the PD situation. He's watched her kill somebody. Right, right. Disposed her. Yeah, exactly. Move it. So, I mean, it's not like... He's got like a little, not just a little double life with Ragabi. He's got a pretty significant one. And also, is this our first reveal that Devin had a little crush on the senator's wife? Is that what we're... Oh, right, yeah. Yeah, that was pretty funny. Yeah. Speaking of the details and stuff, I did count the bottles

[01:39:06] of whatever it is that are in Mark's fridge from when he's having the flashback earlier. And in a previous episode, there were nine of those, and now there's seven of them. So I think the continuity folks are doing their job on set and keeping... That should track for a couple of days if he's taking one of those a day. You know, something I wanted to note about Ragabi is that she often deflects from Mark's statements that kind of invite an answer.

[01:39:35] He goes, you know, a lot of people bargain for their partner back, and now I could possibly get that. And she doesn't answer that. She goes, Mark, the Gemma you still want is in there somewhere. Somewhere. And it's like, well, that's not exactly saying, yes, you might get that. Right. That's saying something else. You know, it's, again, I'm prepping for the Wheel of Time. I'm reading a lot of Wheel of Time right now. And the Aes Sedai speak. Steve, I don't know how familiar you are with the Aes Sedai, but they take an oath.

[01:40:05] It's speak no untrue word. And that's not the same as don't tell a lie. That is speak no untrue word. And I feel like Ragabe is doing that right now. Agreed. What I said was true from a certain point of view. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and she's using Mark for her own purposes and for her own ends, right? As much as she's trying to help him. She's not trying to help him. She's trying to successfully reintegrate somebody. Right. So Mark's just getting used. He's being used by Lumen.

[01:40:35] He's being used by Ragabe. Okay. Devin has whatever feelings and guilt that she has, and so she's sort of pushing to, you know, face this mystery. So he doesn't have a lot of agency. Kobelvig was, you know, all up in his business making him eat cookies and stuff. So he's had very little outside agency in his life now that you think about it. So not surprised he's being a little salty. You know?

[01:41:04] We're one episode away from Ragabe saying, it's Frankenstein. Right. Yeah, I, uh, so yeah, four episodes. Four episodes left. Four episodes. David, do you want to hit us with some needle drops before we go? Just the one, and it's not going to be in your head. Um, that was a long ass needle. Uh, we have, uh, talk about the one that we're going to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, Ella Fitzgerald, Sunshine of Your Love from 1968.

[01:41:34] Now everybody was like, what? Ella Fitzgerald, Sunshine of Your Love, which is a cover. Yeah. Of the Cream 1967 song, the, the, uh, rock band Cream. I've been waiting so long to be where I'm going in the sunshine of your love. So in 68, Ella Fitzgerald recorded a live album at the Fairmont Hotel, I think it was, in San Francisco. Uh, and released a whole album

[01:42:04] of her basically doing a whole bunch of covers and like, you know, the Beatles and, and this was, uh, the number, uh, number two song that was on the album. And you can actually find the, the whole album on YouTubes. Uh, if you just do Ella Fitzgerald, Sunshine of Your Love whole album or, you know, something that affect, you'll find it there. Um, and that's just the, the song. So, I don't know what- Chinese Surfer by Kava Khan playing during the, uh, Chinese food restaurant scene. Oh, you got me on that one. And I,

[01:42:34] I missed it. I missed a needle drop. What was it again, Steve? Chinese Surfer by Kava Khan. Okay. I'm going to have to, I need a note in the- It's a nice little jam right before, uh, I think right as, right as, he's, he's fingering rice. Hard to do. Yeah. I want you to know, Steve, that David made me put that joke in. He did, it was the first thing he said to me today. No good morning. He said, John, make sure you say

[01:43:03] Steve fingers his rice. Cause I just, it was so, when, when he's doing, when Mark is doing that, I just, I, there was a voice in my head, you know, and Steve, a man who eats rice with his fingers. So I had to. So, so going back to the sunshine of your love, I love the fact that like, cause like the song, because of the lyrics, like you have this idea that like, okay, he's gonna, he's waiting, you know,

[01:43:32] he's almost there, right. To see his, his wife, his love. Like that's sort of like what you could take away, which is, you know, a lot of times, you know, like when we talk about the song choices, like sometimes they're on the nose, but they're a little different. Like, and I, I think it's really interesting that it's a, it's a jazz cover. Right. Because if they dropped in with cream, right. Right. We would all be like, Oh, we know the song, but by doing, having it with Ella Fitzgerald completely throws you for

[01:44:01] a different curve on this. Yeah. Which to me, Oh, go ahead. There's, there's an Eric clap. Nobody wants to be associated with Eric Clapton anymore. He said a lot of things. That's fair. That's part of it. That's fair. Yeah. But also I get this, like when you start dealing with, um, like when you started dealing with jazz and a jazz cover of something, it's like, you know, it might be a little bit disrupted. You might have the, uh, what you're familiar with, but it's presented in such a way that it's a little bit like for lack of a better word off a little disjointed by just the nature of jazz.

[01:44:31] And so I kind of felt that way with Mark. Hey, he's on his way to see her, but it might not be the way that he used to be. Like there might not be his original form, you know, it might be a little bit disjointed. I like that. That's a good interpretation. I like it. Well, everyone, it's been a real swell time tonight. Really quickly, Steve, you want to pitch properly? Howard one more time for tonight? Oh yeah, properly, Howard, you can go back and you can, uh, re, you can re-listen to everything we've done and you can, uh, keep track of every

[01:45:00] single grade that we've ever, uh, given. Um, uh, and, uh, we will be, uh, I don't know when we will be doing our draft for our next season, but we are definitely in the works of coming up with a very convoluted way to, uh, watch movies. Rube Goldberg has nothing on you guys. Shambolic Rube, indeed. So, uh, on the Lorehound side, Alicia's finishing up her Oscars series, which David, you're involved with.

[01:45:36] uh, final one for the series. Very nice. Very nice. Cause this, this weekend is the Oscars. Is that what it is? No, no. Next weekend. I don't even know the date. I just know that I have to run it right up to it. I don't know how the Oscars were. This is how out of the movie world I am. Yeah. I don't even know when this freaking thing is, but the point is there's a lot of Oscars coverage. March 2nd. Yeah. Okay. We'll fit. We'll, we'll be all done just before. Yeah. So go and go and listen to all those podcasts.

[01:46:06] You can listen to that conversation. Um, you can listen to her Amelia Perez controversy one. That was a lot of fun. I know Mark from nevermind the music went on to do some, some music stuff. Yeah. Uh, and then you can go to our feed, the Lord hounds feed to hear the first 30 minutes of, and to the nevermind the music feed to hurt here. The full thing of the SNL music documentary review. Uh, just go straight to the nevermind the music. Yeah. I was, I was listening. I was listening to this podcast and I thought

[01:46:35] to myself, this is one of the greatest podcasts I've ever heard. I'm not even kidding. I was, I was listening to it. I was going to praise you on second breakfast, but then I was sick and didn't go on second breakfast. I'm blushing. I was like the way you're weaving in and out the clips and just talking about the certain things and you all have these different perspectives. I was, I was, I was fanboying over, over your podcast. So, so I went to think that I didn't know, uh, you know, a lust from a, uh,

[01:47:04] a voice equalizer to, uh, you know, you know, anything about editing before we got into this. it was fantastic. And I, and I, I had listened to it the night before we were going to record second breakfast. And then I got really sick. I was like, I was so ready to gush about it. And I had so many very specific things to say about it. It was a really fun episode to put together. Mark and Nicole are so fun to podcast with. And yeah, pulling up all those music clips. If listen, dear listener, if you have not watched

[01:47:33] the SNL music documentary by hooker, by crook, you have to at least watch the first six minutes where they take 50 years of musical history and weave it together into its own song. It is so incredible. It's so good. And then we just, yeah, we had a great time talking about how the cultural, the musical, how SNL as a cultural influencer, but then the music aspect of it, it was a really fun part.

[01:48:03] So I should have, I should have taken up the ticket you up on going on there. I don't think, I don't, I don't know if you ever invited me, but I don't think you watched SNL. I have watched SNL regularly for like 10 years. You have? Well, we can do something about not like or something, not live and not, not every week, but nobody watches regularly. I know it's just so late. It's just so late and I have children, but anyway, so go, go listen to the SNL pod. Alicia's got some daredevil prep coming.

[01:48:33] I've got a Silmarillion story coming. It gets, it's gotten pushed a couple of times to make room for other things, but that's coming. They're doing Captain America brave new world on the Lord hounds feed. And then we'll have time is coming soon. So that's all the stuff on the Lord. Don't forget Eraserhead and well, yes, on the subscriber feed, we've got Eraserhead, our David Lynch film fest for 11z's coming for subscribers only. I can't, I don't know. I can't believe I'm going to watch that movie again. The last time I watched that movie, I had taken a particular, my friend and I had taken

[01:49:03] particular substances and we're like, yeah, let's watch this movie. And like, man, that thing, it's a bizarre movie. Again, the only reference I've ever heard to it is Bo Burnham saying in a song about sexting that his penis looked like the baby from Eraserhead. Well, you're going to have that stuck in your head now when you see this movie. The line gets stuck in my head every time I hear the word Eraserhead. Now you're going to have a visual. I'm so glad. Steve, have you ever seen Eraserhead? I have not. Wow. Okay. Well,

[01:49:32] tune into the podcast once it's out. I know, I'll give it a shot and listen. All right, so on other feeds very quickly, Radioactive Ramblings is covering Invincible season three. If you want Invincible, go see, yeah, go check that out. Yep, yep, yep, Never mind the music weekly coverage on top of the special SNL episode. They do psychology and music together. It's amazing. Go have a great time with it. And Alicia is wrapped up on Silo, but she just released

[01:50:01] a bonus Oscar episode on We'll Shift Dust. I know she has plans going forward on Star Wars and We'll Shift Dust as well. Did I forget anybody? I think that's it for now because, you know, we're not crazy like that and we don't put out like 18 pods a week. You know, we started off this year and I said, we're going to slow down everyone and everyone just ignored me. It lasted like a week. All right. Because, you know, we got Wheel of Time and then we've got The Last of Us

[01:50:31] and then we've got Andor, you know. Good night, everyone. We just, Foundation's coming in summer. Bye. Good night. This podcast is a joint production of The Lorehounds and Properly Howard. Click the link tree in the show notes for links to more podcasts, our Discord server, and ways to support the show. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Is it the Frank or the beans?