Severance - S02E07 - Chikhai Bardo

[00:00:02] Don't pervert a handbook passage to me, okay? Welcome to a Lorehounds and Properly Howard joint production covering Severance on Apple TV Plus Season 2 Episode 7 Chikhai Bardo. I'm John. With me today, he recycles his urine as drinking water. David. I am a soldier for cure.

[00:00:29] He belayed his first cool while in middle school. Steve. So true. And his doctoral thesis was titled, All Quiet on the Western Blunt, Anthony. Give me my A now. Anthony, have you, well, I don't know in your line of, your particular line of work, but have you had to field many of the student papers about how legalization, well, you know, and it's passed now with marijuana, but the whole legalization of marijuana?

[00:00:59] Most of my papers are written by AI and receive Fs. Most? Really? It's become a sort of an overnight sensation. And not much, not much to do with All Quiet on the Western Front.

[00:01:19] You know, I probably, that's a little bit overstated, but it's a dramatic shift. It's a dramatic shift. And you know, it's fine. You know, most professors will design their syllabus using AI and students will write their papers using AI and then the professors will grade using AI. Exactly. And we all continue to, you know, get pushed through the conveyor belt and everyone gets what they want in the end.

[00:01:46] Soon the AIs will just talk to each other and you won't even have to do any work. That's right. That's right. That's right. Well, let's get that universal basic income going before we get to that point. So anyway, David, can you tell people quick housekeeping? Absolutely. Just, we've done it many times now, but some people still need to hear. We're still getting, still people are subscribing to the seasons pass. It's true. We have more episodes in the pipeline.

[00:02:13] So if you do want to get ad free versions without a subscription, you can just spend five bucks and get a season pass. There's a link in the show notes or you could support the whole network by becoming a regular subscriber on Patreon or Supercast. You can hear me yell about Eraserhead. I did that a lot. Ah, today. Yeah, that was a good one. I missed the part about the season pass. Could you say that again? You know, I just want to really reinforce it multiple times for people.

[00:02:42] I know our listeners love to hear that. They do. They love to hear my mouth noises as well. I'm doing it as well. Have you heard about our season pass though? In our supply closet episodes, we've had conversations with Mark and Nicole from Nevermind the Music. Anthony had a lovely conversation with Jason Eberl. Is it Eberl or Eberl? I always say Eberl. Yeah. I always feel so bad because I mispronounce his name. Eberl.

[00:03:08] But he's an ethicist and philosopher and is a student of the sci-fi genre. And I just had a conversation with Ian and Aisha. Ian from the Captain's Pod and CinemaSins and Aisha from every single sci-fi film ever. That was a lovely conversation. So all of those are available in the supply closet. If you want to head to the Discord for a real-time chat about the show, there's a link in the show notes. Or you can send us email.

[00:03:37] Severance at thelorehounds.com. Our hand of the pod Nancy will be glad to collate your submissions. And please remember to like, rate, and review the podcast. Well, here we are folks. Season 2, Episode 7. Anthony, why don't you start us off with your hot takes? Yeah, I think we've got a sort of a primary timeline of motivations. And it took me the second watch to really get this.

[00:04:07] But correct me if I'm wrong. All right? So I've got four main points here. Gemma meets Mark. As a result of their relationship, she has a struggle with infertility. As a result of her infertility journey, as her paperwork said, she encounters the scientist on the floor below the floor at Severance.

[00:04:37] And as a result of her ongoing suffering, psychological trauma, she sort of embraces this new cult-like solution involving memory testing. And she winds up as sort of a rat in the maze down on the testing floor. Did I get any of that wrong? Probably.

[00:05:06] Can you prove it? Can you prove that? I think that's probably right. Except I don't think we're totally clear on the transition from Gemma at home to Gemma with Lumen. Like, I don't think we fully know her motivations there yet. Well, we see Dr. Maurer just in passing in the fertility waiting room. That is correct. So, and I didn't catch that the first time around.

[00:05:33] And you, he, just a little glance, you know, the camera doesn't hang on him. But just a little glance, you see him check out Gemma. Yep. Are you suggesting that then Gemma is working with him? I think that she, I think that she decides that she's going, you know, she gets on this mailing list where she gets the Chakai Bardo cards, right?

[00:05:58] She says, I think I got these on this mailing list because of the fertility treatment. I think that these Chakai Bardo cards are meant to kind of be a lure. Like, like a, like a, like sometimes, you know, cultish groups will use sort of introductory reading material. And I think she gets on this. And I think she gets on this. She thinks, so this is kind of interesting.

[00:06:26] It kind of gets my mind off my trauma. Uh, and then when she realizes, oh, actually they do testing where you can actually live other people's lives and not have to sort of suffer through your own. Give me more of that. I think that's when they get their hooks in her and she ends up volunteering for long-term testing. That, that is my theory. I don't, yeah, that's an interesting theory. It's, I think it's wrong, but that's cool.

[00:06:57] David, can you give us your hot takes? Well, um, I'm still processing this episode. There's just no way that I could have ever predicted at the outset of this season that an episode like this could exist within the framework of the show. Steve, do you think that David's feelings are right or wrong at this point? They're right. Okay. Continue to hear him. You're more wrong the more he talks.

[00:07:26] I need a woe meter. Should we hook me up to a woe meter? Which opinion made your mouth hurt? Uh, the, by the end of the episode, well, like somewhere in the middle of the episode, maybe after the montage, I was just so in love with both Mark and Gemma.

[00:07:47] They were just, they, they created such a depth of character with just these scenes and these, you know, sort of, um, uh, cut scenes out of their lives that it was just really palpable. And so when the heartbreak comes, it's, it was just super impactful. The use of the visual storytelling to give us insights into the characters was just really incredible.

[00:08:17] Watching Mark destroy the baby carriage, uh, the baby, um, the baby, the baby's crib. Right. That's, that indicates to me somebody who's bottled up his emotions and now it's all coming out destructively in this moment.

[00:08:28] So it tells me a lot about how Mark processes, uh, his feelings or, uh, Gemma's is a very reserved person, but highly intelligent and observate, you know, her observation, the whole, um, at the end of the montage, there was the scene at lunch with Rick and and Devin and Gemma and Mark.

[00:08:49] And that I've, I've, I've come to the belief that that whole scene, that scene was designed for one frame and that frame at the end of the scene. When Devin is looking back at Gemma, when she realizes that Gemma's pregnant, that is a thousand pages of exposition.

[00:09:17] All boiled down into that one, whatever, you know, a minute, half a minute, you know, long scene. And that was just an incredible level of storytelling. And then it also tells me that Gemma has as much love for, uh, Devin has as much love for Gemma as Mark does. And that's why she's been so invested in, in finding out this mystery. I don't know, David, I'm going to disagree. I think that scene was more to lay a foundation of Rick and his outdoorsmanship.

[00:09:46] I got more, more from that. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. I'm really liking the use of color to denote the different spaces, you know, the, the different greens that we have on the testing floor, the whites, the out, the Audi world is very dark right now. And they're using a lot of Rembrandt writing lighting where inside the innies are well lit, uh, unless they're running around the hallways at night.

[00:10:10] But, you know, there's still, there's this very, any Audi lighting structure and color spaces as well. And along with the sound design to really cue emotional responses, there's a lot of heavy, low tones in this really good. And then just this episode, the, the grain, the soft focus, the eight millimeter, you know, the, the faux eight millimeter stuff going from wide shots to medium shots, to closeups, to extreme closeups.

[00:10:36] Like they were all over the place in every shot told something of the story using the circular camera to spin us around like a merry-go-round. Uh, the production design, the testing floor suites, uh, Gemma's apartment, it gave me really space 1999 vibes, you know, like seventies, future retro stuff. It was great. And then there's this whole question.

[00:11:01] I was just really intrigued by whose flashback was it in whose dreams, whose journeys were we? Cause sometimes we were with Gemma and sometimes we were with Mark. I have the same question. Yeah. Yeah. The two would flow together just, just beautifully. And I think my, my last wrap up thought is Sandra Bernhardt, Steve, uh, King of comedy. Is that, uh, yeah, that I always connect that.

[00:11:25] I mean, it's, she's got so much other work and, you know, uh, as a standup and just various other performance, but it's King of comedy. Always, always is the one that stands out to me. Yeah. And that was her breakout, I think. Yeah. So Steve, what's your hot take? Um, this, well, this is a very, I think I was in a little, uh, apprehensive about this podcast just cause I'm not, I'm not really sure how to talk about this episode to be perfectly honest.

[00:11:51] It's like, it's almost like, I mean, cause obviously now everything is cleared up, which is great. Um, and so the rest of the show, I guess is just a prologue, but that's fine. Uh, no, I, I don't know. I, um, I'm not, I'm not exactly sure where to go with it. I mean, it was so different, so jarring, unlike any, uh, uh, other episode, not just in, um, structure, but just, uh, the look, the sound, um, which I think is really, really good.

[00:12:21] And I really think that, that we had in the last, um, podcast kind of talked about the, how we're rooting for Mark and how we kind of tolerate Mark scout, um, but root for Mark S. And this episode, I think did a lot of work to, to sort of help, help us be mission focused, I think. Right. Um, first off hot Mark is, is a, is a definite, uh, refresh. It's a refreshing thing to have.

[00:12:51] Um, you know, Adam's got a little, little bit of a snack in this episode, which I like, um, hair goes a long way, but the, uh, does, but, but, so it's just fascinating to see this, this, this play out and where Anthony has his, uh, theory about, uh, Gemma maybe getting lured by this cult, which is an interesting take, uh, that I hadn't really thought of.

[00:13:15] I, I, I guess I saw this more as, I mean, maybe alluring, but maybe all the way to, I just, it doesn't seem to me, again, we don't get a lot of the story. You know, we get sort of a broad stroke, but with the choices they made, I saw a growing separateness between them, but not one that would indicate to me that she's just be like, all right, well, I'll just fake my death now and joined this cult. I don't know if she faked her death. Her death was faked.

[00:13:45] You're aware that, that, that's right. It was fake. Does she know that Mark thinks that she's dead? Well, she knows that she's gone. Let me, let me suggest. She knows that she can't see Mark. Since you're having trouble with this, let me help you out here. So, so it could be that she says, yes, I would like to undergo long-term trials.

[00:14:11] She checks in and then Lumen to come in, to make it look like she's dead. She doesn't really know what's going on in the outside world. They fake her death without her knowledge. I don't think that lines up though with the dialogue later in the episode because when she says, I want to see Mark, they say, well, Mark moved on. He's remarried. He has a daughter now. And that to me says he thinks she's dead and she knows that.

[00:14:41] I think Dr. Maurer is actually in love with her. I agree. And he's now wanting to keep her for himself. Mr. Drummond basically told us. But the idea that, um, that like if she's thinks she's just doing long-term testing and then, and Mark's just like waiting for her, you know, I mean like she, she wants to see Mark again. She, she says that she went, now can I go see Mark?

[00:15:06] That doesn't suggest to me that, um, like I, if she's, she seems like she's a prisoner and, and, but she's being told that she can leave under, you know, after she has some sort of, she serves her purpose is what I'm. Gathering. I mean, I, uh, I just, I just don't see what, like what they chose to show us.

[00:15:26] Like I said, they definitely showed that there was a rift and a fracture between the relationship, you know, causing, you know, because of the, of the infertility issues and how they're dealing with it and how they went from this like kind of, uh, you know, idyllic existence to where they are now. That's a pretty big leap to be like, well, I'm going to now just do long-term testing, um, without telling my husband. I mean, does she think that she's checking in for a week? Does she think that she's checking in for two years?

[00:15:54] And does she have a sense of that time once she's there? Well, what do you think she's checking in for? I think that she's, I think she finds some kind of solace in this group she's going to, uh, you know, she's, you know, sort of like, what, what is it? Either the rabbit. What's wrong with the group that has charades? Yeah. The group that has charades, right? She, she finds some, something to take her mind off her grief.

[00:16:21] And maybe there's a little bit of, uh, relief in sort of playing with reframing memories. She finds that attractive. She thinks I'll just go to this thing. And then she's gone. She's, she's just gone.

[00:16:41] And we, we don't really know what transpires after that, but I think that she gets involved with Lumen as a result of her grief. Like so many of these other characters do. I think that's definitely right. I think I'm just questioning whether she knows that. I think she's a prisoner. Yeah. Yeah. She becomes a prisoner for sure. Does she enter Lumen voluntarily or do they abduct her?

[00:17:12] I mean, if you could, I mean, I, I, I'm not willing to give Lumen a lot of benefit of the doubt for doing things a good way. Just based on what I've seen this episode particular. I mean, but, but you know that they have ironclad contracts in place. Yeah. You know, like she signed her life away that day. Right. So, I mean, it could be one of those things where she didn't realize that she was what she had signed up for. And then now she signed up for it. Right.

[00:17:35] I mean, she's going through an awful lot of, you know, physical, psychological testing and all these different things are going on. That does not suggest to me that Lumen cares a whole lot about how they do the thing. No, but they will deceive, you know, they, they will, they'll send Milchak to your house and, and he's going to smile a lot and, you know, try to smooth things over. Lumen has a forward facing voice to the sort of the community.

[00:18:05] That's very different than the sort of the, the stern authoritarian face that they show that the, the innies. So I, I could see this kind of, I could see a card like the Bardo. What are they called? The, the Chakai Bardo cards designed to put hooks into people who are going through grief. Like you, if you destroy your own ego, then really what you're doing is you're destroying your own suffering and we can help you do that.

[00:18:34] I wonder, I wonder if. Steve, can I interrupt you briefly? It's, it's, yeah, it's your thing apparently. The, just to point out, point of order, that those Chakai Bardo cards, right, they freaked out when Dylan, was it Dylan that got a hold of one of them? Yeah, yeah. And they, they, they moved, they, they, they significant, they spent a significant amount of energy tracking that thing back down. But then we find that there's a lot of them.

[00:19:00] And so I don't wonder that through these fertility clinics and other things. So this goes back into the cloning theory. And to me, I think what maybe is a trigger to all of this is they found in Gemma the right combination of genetics or what have you.

[00:19:21] And whether by hook or by crook, they got a hold of her, that they had found her genetic material or whatever and then, and have her in for that purpose. But if they're sending those cards out to a lot of people, right, why do you have so many cards? Because they're blanketing all these fertility clinics. Anybody who signs up and gets on the mailing list gets these cards.

[00:19:49] I mean, missionaries keep the printing business in, in play, you know, there's no, there's no printing business without, without the Jehovah's witnesses and the Mormon church. Steve, please. So, yeah. So, I mean, it is, it is, uh, an interesting way that they, they could be luring her in.

[00:20:10] And the question is, is, did she, did she volunteer for maybe severance, um, because she was having some issues or they, cause there's something like, I mean, she, cause they go through the severance procedure, um, in a cultish fashion. Does it seem incongruous with where, where they were going or, or, you know, because, uh, Mark and all, from what we gather, the other folks being severed, there's, there's a, there's a reason, there's a method.

[00:20:39] What would she be severing from? Right. And so she, we know she's severed. She's, we now know that you can have multiple innies when you're severed. Um, the, uh, the getting there part, I think is, is pretty crucial to this is to, you know, to find out is Lumen able to convince her versus, um, there was, she was abducted or, I mean, they said it's a pretty big thing.

[00:21:06] And it goes back to like what you're saying, Dave, with, um, you know, they found something in her. I mean, blood is a theme very heavily in this episode. Um, we start with them donating blood. Uh, the next shot is, uh, her blood being extracted. We even, they go out of the way to show the, the blood in the finger, uh, the, the miscarriage. We've mentioned, uh, his nosebleed.

[00:21:31] Um, and so I wonder if it's not her, but it is Mark and she's sort of a, still a way to get to Mark. But at the same time, they're just going to continue to use her because like what she's doing down there right now really just feels like she's the Guinea pig to, to, to test a more commercial use of severance.

[00:21:57] Like not just for work, but you can use it for any aspect of your life. Um, that you don't want to deal with. You don't, if you're afraid of flying here, get severed. If you don't like going to the dentist, get severed. Yeah. Um, if you don't want to have to write like, hella thank you notes gets severed. Um, you know, but so it's like, there's, there's a, so it was like, so that part of it is like, like, I understand. All right.

[00:22:22] I'm gathering that kind of thing, but I'm not understanding why her, cause it's as far as we can tell, there's not a lot of people going to these different rooms. Like what is it about Gemma and or Mark that makes this experiment so specific and so unique to them? It's the face card. It's the face card.

[00:22:48] No, that's what the kids are always saying is that, uh, Ms. Casey's performance is always 90% face card, but she finally got to act this episode. And I appreciate that. And, and it was really a pleasure to watch David. You always have the actor's names up. What's this actor's name? Oh my God. Are you calling me out on this right now? You're always the guy. You're the production guy. I got my lighting. I got my Zollies. I got my actors. Uh, I was, uh, looking up, uh, um, podcast ratings. Okay. Well, anyway, I got it here. It's coming. It's coming. Give me half a second.

[00:23:19] Mark's family. Dykin Leichman. I cannot pronounce this. Anyway, she's doing a great job. That's all I want to say. I, uh, I, I don't want to give too many more hot takes because we're already over 20 minutes. It's just doing hot takes. And I think we're already covering a lot of the materials we're going to cover during the theory crafting and all that. So why don't we take that quick break? When we get back, we will get deeper into the theories.

[00:23:49] Think of a song you really love. Don't you want to know why you love it so much? Well, we can't answer that. No, but we can deep dive into it anyway. Unless we get too sidetracked. We're the Nevermind the Music podcast. One musician. And one psychologist. Talking about iconic songs. The musical tricks that blow our minds. And what they show us about our minds. Join us each week as we pick apart everything from TLC to Weezer. And from Billie Eilish to Bruno Mars. With plenty of distractions in between.

[00:24:17] Check out Nevermind the Music wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. So let's get into the different plot lines. It's really, I have these here for organization. And David suggested the topics to me. Because when I first looked at this episode, I was like, how the fuck do I outline this? It's like 80% theory crafting and theory answering. So let's just talk about the different aspects here.

[00:24:47] So Mark and Gemma in real world, Mark and Gemma. After a meet-cute at a lumen blood drive, Mark and Gemma fall in love. We also get a lovely brunch with Rickon. They eventually begin to try to conceive. And after miscarriage, they go to a fertility clinic. Things get tense in their house as Mark disassembles their crib. And Gemma heads out to a party with charades. Do you know how many marriages Ikea has ruined? That's a whole plot line in 30 Rock. Have you seen that episode?

[00:25:17] No. They say the Ikea workers following Tina Fey's character and her partner around going. And every time they start fighting, he goes, yes, yes, more. That's a Star Trek day of the dove with the evil entity absorbing the negative emotions. It's like, I live for this. Anyway, so the police come at the end and Mark doesn't open the door. And I think that that's important. That's what I'll start with is I think it's important that we didn't get a definitive answer of how she got there. I think they are withholding that deliberately.

[00:25:48] And all we can do at this point is speculate. I want to just touch on that montage again. And that's one of our needle drops, which is a Belgian singer, the La Valleuse à mille temps. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly in French. I apologize. The waltz with a thousand beats is the English translation of it.

[00:26:14] And I just loved how they told the story of their relationship and the depth of feelings that they had for each other and their lives together in this really just visually and auditorially just very moving way.

[00:26:40] And the song, the refrain of the song goes, it's very long. It goes on and on, but I'll just read the first few stanzas. A waltz in three beats that still takes the time to take detours towards love, how charming life. A waltz in four beats is much less danceable, but just as charming. A waltz in 20 beats is much more troubling. And it just goes on and on like that.

[00:27:08] And so they really chose a song that echoes the trajectory of the characters as they're struggling, you know, as they're just going through their daily life, but then end up into this really unfortunate situation of the question of fertility. Yeah, I pulled up a bunch. All right. So here are the lyrics that I pulled up.

[00:27:37] And my French is really rusty, but mine says, shock the monkey. Ooh, monkey, monkey. So I don't know where you got these lyrics, David. I think David just wrote a poem and wanted to share it with us. I asked my AI companion to write a poem for me. It might have been questionable translation, but it was a lot about carousels and very, very repetitive about carousels.

[00:28:07] This is fantastic podcasting. So there's a ton of stuff to talk about in this part. That is not the lyrics of the song that we can't agree on. Are you sure we should move on, John? I think we should take several more minutes to dissect this. But if not, dear listener, I want to talk about the fertility clinic. Okay, good. The fertility clinic. First of all, we have Mr. Maurer, Dr. Maurer. I'm sorry. So sorry.

[00:28:37] He worked hard for that fake degree. And the line that really got me is when Mark goes over to Gemma. And he says, hey, it's the next step for a lot of people. I love you. What he should have said was, it's the next step for a lot of people. It doesn't have to be our next step. And I think he almost said it. But it was so clear that Mark is really attached to this idea of having a kid.

[00:29:06] And he can't even bring himself to comfort Gemma all the way because this is his dream in life. Is to go have a kid. And I feel like they do a really good job in this writing. It's very subtle to basically say, like, Mark slowly becomes less of the person that Gemma can rely on. And that's why she's getting pushed towards these more extreme. She says, I'm sorry. And, of course, he shakes his head like you shouldn't have to be sorry. But he doesn't say it. Right.

[00:29:35] There's a sense in which she's almost more sorry for him. But, you know, I think to go from the meet-cute to the suffering that infertility brings in a space of 20 minutes is really something. It's just, you really need this episode.

[00:30:05] And this is what Sarah was saying to me earlier. She said, you really needed to find out why Mark is in love with Gemma. Because really all of it is sort of obscured by the way that they've been telling the story. But we never got to really invest in that relationship. And because of that, maybe we care less about Gemma than we do about baby goats.

[00:30:31] And so this episode was really important to have us invest in that relationship so that something's at stake. There's a reason why we should care that maybe any Mark doesn't care about finding her anymore. And that's a problem. Yeah. So anyway, excellent storytelling in terms of getting us to invest in those two. Yeah. And, you know, something that my wife sent me.

[00:31:01] She sent me a screenshot, I think, of a TikTok comment from Spicy Garbage. That's who wrote this. But it's a great take. Mark Scout, Audimark, is Orpheus trying to save Eurydice. Mark S is Odysseus going to war for Helen of Troy. And so, you know, Mark Scout wants to go into Hades and rescue his wife. That's the Orpheus in Eurydice. Mm-hmm.

[00:31:30] And then Mark S is, I think it's more of just the Helena thing, you know, the Helena Helly of it. But going to war for Helen of Troy. I think that's a really interesting, like, are these two going to clash internally now that he's reintegrating? I think that's an interesting question, is what is reintegration going to do, especially that, given that any Mark S has been developing feelings for Heli?

[00:32:01] And how is that going to complicate his motivations? Because we're clearly left at the end of the episode with the depth of his feeling when Devin asks him, you know, like, hey, you know, what are you doing as he's coming up and out? And he has that moment. And then we get that dissolve to Gemma's eyes and the sadness on his face. What Mark came up or came to, you think? Oh, that's a good question. Oh. Maybe integrated Mark.

[00:32:30] Maybe it's both and. Mm-hmm. Exactly. I think this is fully reintegrated. If you want to bring in the wake-up stuff, I think we can just say Ruggabi tests Mark's responsiveness and tells Devin he'll be fine but needs time to wake up. When Devin panics and tries to call Miss Cobel to get to Demona birthing retreat, Ruggabi leaves to protect herself. Then Mark wakes up remembering Gemma. So we got the birthing retreat back. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:00] So back to what, David, you were asking before, like, how much of this is Gemma's perspective versus how much of this is Mark's perspective? And I think it beautifully seesaws us through both. It does, however, I wonder, okay, let me ask this. Was there any, was there ever a scene that would give us just Mark without Gemma and something that Gemma would have no view to?

[00:33:30] Because I think a case could be made that this entire episode is her processing. What about the police, though? The police coming at the end. She wasn't there for that. Okay, that's right. That's right. Yeah. I think the, to me, I thought the answer was both. I thought the reason why we could get both perspectives is because both perspectives were sort of happening. I got the sense that maybe it mattered less.

[00:33:55] I mean, the question is, is are these, how much of these are flashbacks versus how much of this is a story being told for us? Both and. Yeah. Yeah. And so I don't know. I mean, I, I think, I think there was, I think there was a point made that, that, that was important for all of us to understand that Gemma exists as Gemma on the testing floor. Correct.

[00:34:18] And, and, and, and we got a sense of what that, what that means and what, you know, Gemma wants, like if she left Mark, she wants him back. If she was abducted by Mark, she wants to be freed. Like whatever. We don't know those, maybe those details yet. Also, do we, I'm sure we all know this. I'm just being dumb. How much time are we talking about between her death and now? About two years. About two years. Okay.

[00:34:44] Um, and we, she's had to go back to the testing floor. Right. So, I mean, is this just something that, is this her everyday life? Is, uh, she's sometimes Miss Casey sometimes, uh, you know, getting her, her teeth. I know like it's been six weeks since she had her last worked on, but I mean that, like that there's a lot of different, um, questions that come up and then obviously these other rooms.

[00:35:09] Um, and now we get a sense of what the testing is to some degree. Like, I mean, we, we assume the testing, like before we assumed that testing was being done on her and I think it still is, but she's also being a test subject as well. Like for severance, it feels. Um, and it's an, it's, I think it's interesting that we brought back the, the birth retreat because this is to our knowledge, the only other place I think where you can just take a,

[00:35:39] like a mini sever or a very specific sever. And, and we know the legislators are trying to get it more widely spread. Right. Right. Yeah. In addition to that, we've confirmed you can be several, you can be severed in multiple areas of your mind. Right. Right. So you could be, you could get this chip and now you could be like, Hey, you know what I don't like doing? I don't like going to the dentist. I also don't like taking flights.

[00:36:06] So I can do all, I can be, I can do all these different things as long as there is a severed elevator or some sort of a portal or whatever that would activate it. You could, you could do. And that's, so that gives you a bigger, it's an interesting, a new dilemma because I, um, I did walk away from this and I'm curious what you guys think. Well, what if this is it, what if all this lumen stuff is really just trying to push this technology throughout the world?

[00:36:36] And, and if that's it, are you bummed? Cause it's not clones or because it's not that, or is that enough? You know, you know, like if it's, you know, I mean, I still think there's a lot more. I mean, I think lumen is, is, is too big, but I've just, but, but this is a big episode where at least this, this would intersect with the, uh, the, the political narrative that was brought up with the Senator. And, uh, and, and, and, and this idea of, of commercialization.

[00:37:04] And also, I mean, it's a pretty big deal if you could get a bunch of people to have your chips in their brains. I don't think I, I don't, I don't put it past lumen to be able to try to figure out the marketing angle of it. I still think that there is some sort of fertility angle on this, you know, for cure and all that.

[00:37:25] But I wanted to pick up a thought that you were putting down there, Steve, which is having these severed spaces, be it a doctor's office or a living room as a prison. What an insidious fail safe that if you escape the bounds of the prison, you cross back over into some sort of compliant version of yourself. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:51] That was the fail safe when she went up the elevator, they were like, oh, it was still kind of a panic moment, but it wasn't a complete freak out because they knew that the moment she gets up into the elevator, she's going to be Miss Casey. And how insidious is that as a technology? Right. Interesting too. Milchak, Milchak rocking the, uh, the jacket and out of breath, which suggests he had probably like left for the day. Quick hop on the, on the bike and get back. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:38:19] There's also this line, um, that, that Maurer says to Gemma that says, after you go into cold Harbor, you will see the world again and the world will see you. And so that's what makes me think, no, this cannot be the end game is just severed. There has to be something more that's going to happen to Gemma. Well, and I've, I mean, I don't know if, if I felt more or less, I, I, last time I said, I felt this, uh, that marks a bit on the suicide mission.

[00:38:46] And it kind of implied that perhaps like even beyond the reintegration part, but like his pain will be go away. Um, you know, it, it seemed as though, like, obviously that they would not necessarily be reunited, but it was all very, you know, like the, like you'd said before, you know, like speak, no, uh, you know, no lies. I mean, it's like cure will, will, uh, erase your pain. And what does that mean? That could mean anything.

[00:39:14] I mean, that could, that could mean you're, well, you don't have any pain cause you're dead. Um, I, I don't, I don't think Mark is, I think they're, they're going, I think they will be more than ready to dispose of Mark once cold Harbor is done. Right. Absolutely. He is, he is definitely a tool and nothing more. Mm-hmm. There's also, um, you know, there, there's this title of the episode, Chakai Bardot.

[00:39:43] And we had somebody on the discord explaining that to us. Chumbaruni comes in with his wisdom and says the title of the episode refers to the Buddhist Bardot, which is the state one enters immediately at death until the moment of rebirth. End quotes. The fourth Bardot begins when the dying process begins, specifically when the outer and inner signs presage, sorry, uh, that the onset of death is nigh.

[00:40:09] The Bardot continues through the dissolution or transmutation of the elements until the external and internal breath has completed. This element disillusion leads to the state of consciousness known as the clear light of death. Those who were experienced at voluntarily sustaining the clear light consciousness during life are capable of retaining lucid awareness throughout the clear light.

[00:40:30] While those, while others lose lucid awareness, blacking out meditation practitioners train to retain lucidity during their clear light of death by practicing sustaining lucidity during the clear light of sleep state. Access via lucid deep sleep. The recognition of the clear light of death leads to the state of Tukdom. So a lot there. Okay. Let me just point out real quick. Yeah.

[00:40:57] I, there's a lot of those themes that fit very well within the Tolstoy short story, the death of Al, Ivan Ilyich. Mm hmm. And, uh, I, I just. Are you well read in Tolstoy? I've never read a story before, but I read it this morning. Nice. Well done. Because it's, it's name checked twice in this episode. As is another story. Okay.

[00:41:24] So I, I read it and it fits perfectly. A very Western perspective, of course. Mm hmm. But it fits perfectly with a lot of the themes that you were just recounting there, John. And then there's the other book, which gets, uh, Tolstoy book, which gets name checked, which is, uh, Haj Murat. Uh, she says she has a lecture on him in 30 minutes.

[00:41:47] And that was about a rebel commander in, uh, Dagestan and, uh, about struggle, struggle in remaining faith flight. I, I read the Wikipedia article. I didn't read the Wikipedia article on, uh, Ivan Ilyich. That short story by Tolstoy, it doesn't necessarily help. It didn't really help me theory craft, but it really does help me understand the tone of this episode. Hmm.

[00:42:15] The, the tone moving from sort of a carefree life to a life of like preoccupation with your own pain. Hmm. And, uh, ultimately moving to a realization that you could have lived life differently. And then this kind of religious experience of death. Uh, so I, it was, it was a great read.

[00:42:43] Um, you know, it only took me a couple hours, but, uh, worth it if you're interested in kind of understanding sort of, I guess, Mark's psychological, uh, development. Well, can we also apply that to the reintegration?

[00:43:05] Um, and how he's basically two versions of himself have to die in order for the reintegration to work. And it has to be kind of become something new, right? Huh. It's kind of a combination of these two, but it's now it's, it's a matter of, matter of reconciling, um, these two, uh, these, like there's almost, there's two egos. Right.

[00:43:31] I mean, he's two different motivations, two different, uh, perspectives on, on world, two different sets of, of memories now coming together. And so it's neither, neither any Mark nor Audi Mark can exist in, in the same way that they've ever existed before. Right. And so he has to suffer an ego death, which she talks about with the cards, right? Right.

[00:43:55] And so if, if Mark is going to reintegrate, he can't have two egos. He's got to have one ego or no ego. Right. And then reading when I, when I watched him wake up and it's like, clearly you have this episode where, you know, dealing with, uh, memories and, and this relationship. And, and, and, and so we see, we, we, we assume because of the, the way that the story is told that like, he's remembering her and that's why he's sad.

[00:44:24] I'm not sure that that's the only reason why he's sad. I think, I think he's different. I think he woke up pretty different. And, um. And Rugabi says he's journeying. Right. Yeah. And so I, I think he's, you know, I mean, he may, he may be, he may be mourning. He may be sad at this memory of Gemma, but he may be also mourning the, uh, you can't go back to these. These, these memories are, are really just that. And they're very fleeting at this point.

[00:44:54] And so like his life is forever different and he has to now reconcile that. Yeah. Yeah. That's probably true. I do think that we get a sense that he's probably blames himself for her death. You know, we didn't know before that she offered to stay. Yeah. Like, do you want to come? No, maybe I should stay. No, you should go. I've got to work on this writing project and she goes.

[00:45:20] And now not only is she dead because of it, according from Mark's perspective, uh, he told her to go and he chose himself not to go. So to me, that tells me a little bit more about why he's grieving her. He's not just grieving the death of his beloved. He's, he also feels guilt.

[00:45:44] He's processing his own, his own guilt at, uh, you know, pushing her away and then like literally sending her out on the journey that leads to her death. With a cherry on top of the fact that she had to remind him to say, I love you back. That's right. That's right. It's a great point that, that it's mirroring. Right. And I think somebody pointed out there was like a similar tree to in the, in the Christmas house. There's some weird mirroring happening.

[00:46:14] And then you, you just get back to like, how long were they watching Gemma and Mark? Adam J wrote in with an email saying Lumen Industries manufactures a range of life science products and personalized medical services, including pharmaceuticals, medical equipment, cosmetics, and personal care items. It is reasonable to assume that this encompasses IVF and human reproduction. Mark and Gemma supposedly unsuccessful attempts would likely have occurred in care PE under the supervision of Lumen doctors.

[00:46:42] This medical access would provide Lumen with almost limitless human embryo. Oh no. Including those of the scouts. Yeah. Maybe Miss Casey slash Gemma's cryptically shortened message to Mark. Your Audi is going to dot, dot, dot. We'll be finished. Uh, is, and is finished with be a father. Uh, as someone who had anguish through six years of IVF struggles, which were finally resulted in a daughter. I'm acutely aware of the number of embryos harvested, frozen, and lost in the real world.

[00:47:11] It would be simple for Lumen to mislead couples like the scouts. Is it, I mean, don't put anything past Lumen, but are we to sort of read this to mean that Lumen is responsible for the miscarriage? Could be. That's, that's, that was one of my earlier thoughts when I watched it the first time.

[00:47:33] It was like, cause, uh, just the, uh, amount of, you know, who knows what, because like we, we already heard, uh, you know, uh, Helena say that, you know, she took a non Lumen, um, was it painkiller or, or, uh, for the, for the, for the rash or whatever. So there, so the idea being that like, they, they have control over all of this. Right.

[00:47:58] I mean, they're, and so if you're taking any type of, you know, hormone increaser or any type of even just a vitamin supplement, I mean, chances are it's from, it's from a Lumen. Um, you know, so there's all kinds of different things they can do. I mean, I think it's, is important to them since, you know, you brought up the, how many embryos and, and, and, you know, we're not ready to give up on, on maybe a cloning or whatever.

[00:48:20] I mean, the, the, why does the, the, the other group, the other, why, why is there a mirrored, uh, macro data refining group? Right. That was my biggest question. Why are they, why are they? And it looked like the, the fake Dylan from the Orpo, right? Was it in there? And they were sitting facing out as opposed to fitting, facing in. So if they're not the same ones that were at the Orpo, that would suggest that there's other ones like this. And it's like, so there's, again, it's, and we already, and you have to look at the,

[00:48:50] the, the door, um, you know, the boss at the door factory. It's like, there just seems to be a lot of similar people. Right. I mean, just kind of floating around. Not only do they have to be observed, we have to dress you like the person you're observing. Right. Yeah. You write down to facial hair. It's ridiculous. Yeah. So it's a, yeah. So that adds a layer of, you know, and, but then you, but you've got Dr. Mauer playing every character. Yes.

[00:49:19] And he has an excellent choice in sweaters. Can I just say, he's, he's a coach at one point, right? He's got like a whistle around his neck. He's a guy. And he's the airline steward. The airline steward scene was amazing. What was that? And they've got like a full on like simulator down there. I guess so. A gimbal. Yeah. Just one more thought on the babies of it all. Phil Murning wrote in and said, just a thought. Why has no one made the connection between the intercourse in episode four and the baby

[00:49:48] cure in the opening sequence? Maybe it's a sign of our times that intercourse and babies are not an obvious connection, but that was the first thing I saw when watching the episode. Please keep up the great work. So that, that has me thinking like, are they trying to like make a baby where they can implant cure or Egan consciousnesses? Yeah. That's, I think that's a legit possibility. Yeah. For cure. Right. Right.

[00:50:13] That there's, there's some sort of lineage, a question of lineages of cure that they're doing and be it clones, be as you know, was, was Gemma, is this a, a, a revenant of Gemma or is this a cloned Gemma that's been regrown or is, and she's going through her behavioral training, sort of a la Westworld, you know, going through all of these cycles of testing

[00:50:41] phases so that they can get the variances down to almost zero before she can be released into the world. And then that's a prototype for a cure, you know, ultimately coming back. Maybe the mark she remembers is not the mark that we think. Yeah. Let me just throw out a little theory here. I think that it's pot. I don't know if I think this, but let me, let me throw this against the wall. Cure has identified Mark as someone with the right makeup. Correct.

[00:51:09] To, to like bring about the, the, the, the second coming of cure. He's got the right set of tempers or he's got the right DNA to do it. Maybe he's a descendant of here. I don't know, but they've identified this guy. This guy is going to continue the lineage and we're going to bring cure back into the world. Uh, and then insert, like insert cure mine into baby or something like that.

[00:51:37] But that's why, that's why they need both Gemma and Mark, both husband and wife. Of course, if they're not going to be able to get Gemma prepared, I guess, for this, if it's not going to work. Helena takes it upon herself. Like, okay, if we can't get him to impregnate her, I'm going to do it. It's going to be me. I'm going to go sleep with the guy.

[00:52:04] I'm going to make sure that, uh, we bring about his descendant through me or something like that. Mm-hmm. Does that, does that work for you? I think so. And, and perhaps even they would prefer it to be through Heli so that it's the same like bloodline with cure. Well, but, but she, uh, yeah, I guess, uh, I guess that makes sense. Um, yeah.

[00:52:29] Cause I guess, cause it was, it was Heli are that, that, uh, they had the experience, but also they had the, I mean, Helena went, went for it on her own. Yeah. I don't know how, cause I'm, I guess I'm, I'm a little unclear as to how excited everybody was about Helena going in there and doing that, doing any of it. Right. I think, yeah, I think she took it upon herself. Like, I'm going to, I'm going to call an audible here. I'm going to, I'm going to do, I'm going to go for plan B.

[00:52:58] Well, she's not going to go for plan B. That's the point. Unless it's Lumen sanctioned. Um, well, so, okay. So was that, I guess from a timeline perspective, that all happened because of the, um, the overtime, uh, contingency happening. What was anything leading to that prior? I mean, you know what I mean?

[00:53:25] It's like, this is all sort of a result of, uh, you know, of that, of that incident. I mean, before it just looked like it was just people doing macro data refinement. Well, and that, I, I think that gets into the question of the correlation of the, the file names to the rooms. Cause Cold Harbor still clearly matters. I mean, it clearly matters and it's, and we're seeing that it didn't even have its name on the door previously.

[00:53:52] So I don't know, you know, yeah, we're not exactly sure what the timeline too, of what we saw with, with Gemma downstairs matches up with everything else. Right. I mean, can I ask you guys a question? What I forget why. Cobell had Gemma sent back to the testing floor. There was some causal moment where they're like, Oh, because Cobell was watching during season one.

[00:54:18] She was watching the interactions with Gemma and then with Gemma and Mark very carefully. And she was like, and I remember there was a line where she's what maybe it was Milchek said to her or somebody said something about, it doesn't like, they seem like they remember each other. And that's a good thing. So yeah, Milchek says, you know, it's a good thing that they don't remember each other. It means that the chips are working. They send Gemma in to do a wellness session with Mark and he, he sculpts a tree. Now the tree.

[00:54:48] Which we see flashbacks of in this episode. That's right. So the tree that he sculpts with clay shows that he remembers his grief from the Audi world because that is the site of Gemma's death. As a result of that, Ms. Cobell says, send her back to the testing floor, meaning that we don't have this perfected because clearly he's got some kind of psychological connection to a tree, which he should not have.

[00:55:18] So they sent her back to the testing floor, not as a defect of Ms. Casey, but because Mark's emotional resonance was bleeding through. That's the tricky part. And it's interesting to me that on the testing floor, that group of sort of mirror refiners, they're not just watching which numbers that are being chosen.

[00:55:41] They're watching the facial cues of the refiners themselves, almost as if they're mapping something about the refiners. Like the, I think we know for certain now that, you know, Dylan and Irv and Mark and Heli are, they are being set up on a floor to be observed. They're not just being observed by Cobell or Milchek or whoever.

[00:56:10] And even by the obvious cameras. There are cameras, and they showed us the spiral of all the fiber optics running down, and they were a lot. The computers that they're using are also registering their facial cues and whatnot. And they're watching everything, which makes the comment that Mark says to Heli, well, when Helena was down here, you know, she was spying on us, so they know everything.

[00:56:36] It's like, bro, they've known everything the entire time. Right. Right. Right. It's like people that say, like, oh, I don't want to have. Hey, guys. They don't want to have an Amazon Echo in the house because it's listening, but they'll have their phone with them everywhere they go. Right. Exactly. Exactly. All right. Let's take a quick break. When we get back, we'll go down to the testing floor.

[00:56:59] Hey, everyone. David here. And like a certain author once wrote, your so-called boss may own the clock that taunts you from the wall, but the hour is yours. And we're using our hours to bring you comprehensive coverage of Severance Season 2.

[00:57:28] Here's something really simple we're doing. A season pass for just five bucks. That's it. One payment. No subscription. No complexity. So what exactly is a season pass? It's a dedicated ad-free feed that gives you permanent access to all of our weekly episodes for Season 2, our exclusive Supply Closet bonus series, and Steve and Anthony's complete Season 1 rewatch.

[00:57:55] In our Supply Closet episode so far, we've had fascinating conversations with the team from Nevermind the Music. Mark broke down the four signature chords of the main musical theme and how they connect to the show's themes, while Nicole has explored the neuroscience behind different types of memory, where personality lives in the brain, as well as brainwave oscillations and reintegration. We've got more exciting conversations planned. We'll be announcing those soon.

[00:58:24] Look, we know everyone's dealing with subscription fatigue these days. That's why we made this super straightforward. Five bucks, one time, everything's included. Two clicks, and you're done. And while we can't promise you any goats, we can promise all of our episodes will leave you feeling just as refreshed as any wellness session. Head over to lorehoundsnetwork.supercast.com to get your season pass.

[00:58:52] You can also find the link in our show notes below. Need help? Visit us at lorehounds.com and use our contact page. Which version of you is listening to this podcast? That is the version that needs to be.

[00:59:34] Right, and we're back. Let's go to the testing floor where Gemma goes through testing by an unnamed woman on the testing floor before being walked through the halls to six rooms where a severed personality takes over. In the Wellington room, Dr. Maurer performs a dental procedure on her. Gemma also goes to a Christmas-themed room where she's forced to write thank you cards for her pretend husband, Dr. Maurer. And she has to go on a simulated plane crash. When she asks to see Mark, Dr. Maurer says Mark has remarried and has a daughter.

[01:00:04] She doesn't believe him, hits him over the head with a chair, and tries to escape. The elevator takes her to the severed floor where she becomes Miss Casey and is sent back down to the testing floor. Yeah. On the thank you card things, there was somebody dropped a line earlier in this same episode. Was it Mark who said, I don't like writing thank you cards or something like that? Like when he brought the ant farm to her? I think she says, this is when they did a different scene.

[01:00:33] I think it's, she's saying like, oh, I should write a thank you to like the, I don't know if it was the clinic or something. She's like, ah, but you hate writing. Hmm. Okay. Okay. So there's all these room names and I could list them, but I think everyone can use their eyes and ears. But the cold Harbor, obviously the most significant one. And we had a piece of feedback that I thought was really interesting.

[01:00:54] This has probably already been mentioned, but I'm reading the power broker, which tells the story of how Robert Moses put a roadway right through the center of a farm in Cold Spring Harbor, splitting the farm in two. One side was apparently fertile, the other not so. As soon as I saw the location, I had this series in mind. So I thought this, the splitting was especially interesting if it hadn't been mentioned. So thanks for a WD-40 for writing in with that.

[01:01:20] Um, yeah, I, I mean the, the fertility on one side that's even with this episode. I mean, come on. Um, and it would be, um, it would fit with the theme of sort of a corporate structure imposing its will on, you know, I guess, uh, upper class, lower class divide.

[01:01:45] And the consequences that someone high up in the government, uh, can have on someone who's more of a blue collar person. Uh, and it kind of fits with some of the other themes that we've been looking at. Yeah, I like that. I don't know what to do with that information beyond that.

[01:02:10] I think it, for me, the title of that room just confirmed that whatever cold harbor, whatever cold harbor is, it's a, it's a room specifically designed to enact some kind of unpleasant situation. Like all of these rooms are simulations of something that you might want to avoid. Yeah.

[01:02:41] And. You're in, in a couple of them. Yeah. You got pain. Yeah. Different kinds of torture, kind of. And what, what did he say to her though? When she says, when you go through that door, uh. The world will see you and you will see the world. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and also that, that, that Mark, when she said, well, well, I see Mark then. And he's like, Mark will benefit from the world that you create. Right. So, so not promise.

[01:03:09] The, the term siring, the, in the, is it interesting? Right. Yeah. John, you, you've gotten, what, five books into six of Dune? Yes. And I don't want to segue too far off, but this reminds me of a little bit of how they wake up a Gola. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's, that's book two. I think you can, you can get into that a little bit. Are there any other Dune heads here? No, I think it's just you and I.

[01:03:36] But anyway, it just makes me think of, um, you know, using, using emotion to, uh, reactivate or activate, uh, something in the psychology. Yeah, this biological memory. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause they're putting her through a lot of psychological stresses, right? I mean, maybe they're doing some physiological exams with the dental work every six weeks, but they're putting her through some, and then they're giving her the woe meter. Mm-hmm. Right.

[01:04:04] Nurse Bernhardt, uh, gives her those two things. And if you look, I screenshotted this, there's, it says woe meter on the center of that little console. So there's some sort of bioelectrical feedback that they're measuring with that. And so there, and she asks her a question of what would you, what is it? A mudslide, right? Would you rather drown or suffocate? Yeah.

[01:04:31] Does this, this bring back or bring you into like the, the e-meters that you would see in Scientology? Oh, I don't know about this. Yeah. You, uh, uh, when I did my little tour of the celebrity center. Uh, in Hollywood, uh, one of the things they do is they hook you up to a knee meter where you hold it. You hold these two, um, like metal rods that are connected. And then they, they, you're, you're supposed to think of a, of an event that happened, uh, you know, that maybe caused you some distress. Oh.

[01:05:01] And it'll give, it'll, it'll, uh, it'll create, once you do that, then the, then the meter will jump up and then we can read. And it gives them a sense of, I think like to the severity of, of what this, uh, this memory is, is doing to you and how it's shaped who you are. Um, and that's part of, I think the audit process too is from that. Uh, doesn't he ask her too about her, her, uh, experiences? What is it?

[01:05:28] She says, I think I have it somewhere in my notes and they're not the normal, uh, uh, they're not the normal woe frolic, um, things, but it's like gaiety. Where is that? Oh, despair, fervor, and gaiety. Did you experience despair, fervor, or gaiety? Yeah. These are just examples that Dr. Maurer, I think is using for her. She can't remember anything.

[01:05:53] She has the sensation of pain, like her hand hurts, her jaw hurts. She cannot remember anything at all, which suggests, and the, and I think that Drummond actually says it is like, you know, the, the, the walls are holding. Yeah. Uh, so you've got to be, you've got that element. Um, you've also got a little bit of a suggestion that, well, all right.

[01:06:23] So I don't, I don't, I don't really know Dr. Maurer's whole deal, but, uh, he suggests that, uh, she's easy to like and that she likes me too, or something like that. Mm-hmm. And then Drummond says, didn't she try to break your fingers? Right. Okay. So, so we, we get the sense that, um, maybe this isn't the first time she's tried to escape. It's a good question. That's a good point. That's a really good point.

[01:06:51] And maybe she just didn't, before, maybe she didn't make it as far as the elevator. I don't know what the heck. Mm-hmm. But I was, early on, I was thinking, why does she continue to put herself through this? She has memories of Mark. She, she's not fully severed down there. She knows who Mark is. Yes. So, why are you continuing to allow this to go on for so long? And then, when Drummond says, didn't, didn't she try to break your fingers?

[01:07:18] I thought, oh no, this is not her first time that she tried to escape. Yeah, she just can't. There's no exit. Yeah. All, all, all exits are, are severed, right? I mean, that's the thing is they can just redirect. It's like, well, you can choose to, you can, you can leave and then be on a plane that's perpetually crashing if you want. Yeah. Hotel, Hotel California ain't got nothing on the side of the floor. They just need Rugabe to get down there and punch a hole in her head and she'll be fine. Can I just, I'm so frustrated with Rugabe. I'm so frustrated.

[01:07:49] Or just the people around her. I want someone to just sit down, Rugabe. Let's take five minutes. Please explain to me what's going on with Lumen. Yeah, right. I mean, I guess maybe that would ruin the, maybe it would ruin the storytelling. But every single time I think, gosh, this woman knows so much and she's telling us so little.

[01:08:14] It is the one thing I, that bugs me the most about a lot of mid tier television shows is I'm too busy to explain what's happening. So I'm going to explain that I can't explain. Oh my God. You know, yeah, she, she just, oh, I love that Devin says, will you just please answer one of my questions? Yeah. Yeah. She's so frustrated too. Also the, I have custody of his brain now. You don't. Yeah. Beautiful line. Okay. But that.

[01:08:39] It does a good thing to say that, well, the, so it creates doubt in Rugabe's intentions to some degree, right? It does. I mean, if she knows she, she sort of has to reveal that, that Gemma's alive because she can't quite get Mark to do what she needs until she, until she reveals that. So it's like, there's a lot of information she sits on that she reveals when it serves her purpose. Mm-hmm.

[01:09:03] And, and so in the same way that Lumen appears to be a chosen Mark, it feels like, like, Rugabe's also just going to be, you know, using, like, he's kind of collateral damage. Like, maybe she doesn't see him as, as, as important or doesn't care. She's got other, another mission involved. So I think, I, so that's what I think it ends up doing, right?

[01:09:24] Whether or not that's true or not, it just sows more seeds of doubt for Rugabe's intentions with the fact that she's not revealing anything more than she feels comfortable with. And then now she's just going to bounce. I mean, that's pretty, it's pretty dramatic. You know, you have what could be your first supposed, like, actually working reintegration subject. And because Devin's like, well, I'm going to make a phone call. She's like, well, then I'm just going to leave. You made this choice. I mean, it's a very, like, kind of leave in a huff kind of a thing that really doesn't, does it?

[01:09:53] Like, there's no, let me explain to you what the stakes are. This is why you can't involve Cobell. Just, just take a moment. This is a bigger deal than what he got. And I also care about your, your brother's well-being. Like, there's none of that. It's just, okay, fine. If you're going to be that way, then I'm out. No, sorry. Have a nice life. You know, it's a really, it was a very odd and abrupt way to end that actually, to me. Seemed kind of in line with the out world that I'm more used to.

[01:10:22] I'm used to the Rebecks of the world. I'm used to Rick and parties. So it's like, yeah, I need people to be a little weirder. Because I also want to know, how come Rick and went from being kind of chill and interesting to this guy? Like, what happened? So, yeah, that can maybe be explained through Rigabi's sort of personality deficiencies. But then Devin does this thing where she's like, I don't understand any of this. Let me just call Cobell.

[01:10:51] At what point is this a good idea? She's going to call Cobell? Like, I don't understand Devin's motivation. This is the woman who pretended to be your lactation consultant. And then... Like, kind of stole your baby. Yeah. Yes. And then left town and pretended to be, you know, Mark's next to her neighbor.

[01:11:15] Why do you think that you can trust your brother's brain with this woman? And so, when Rigabi, like, freaks out and says, don't call Cobell, I'm thinking, yeah, that's right. You should freak out. But please explain to her very gently what that would do. And don't just bounce. She left her in her contacts. I thought that was interesting. That's true.

[01:11:45] That's true. I mean, look, we're like two episodes from Rigabi leaning into Miss Cobell and going, hell Hydra. Right. So, I guess... Look, I love this show. For me, that scene didn't really make sense relative to what I know about these characters. And so, sometimes when that happens, I ask, like, what don't I know about these characters to make better sense of this? Because otherwise the writing is fantastic on the show.

[01:12:15] But after watching it a second time, I'm thinking, no, that scene was just very poorly written. Because Devin is doing and saying things that she would not do and say. And Rigabi just is only ever frustrating. I don't know. I don't know. Because people do not act rationally when they are panicking about a loved one dying. Like, they just don't. At what point would you think, I'm going to call a con artist? My brother's in trouble.

[01:12:44] I'm going to call a con artist. She doesn't do it in the end. But we all go, like, who can I call to fix this when we're, like, grieving and we don't know what to do? Right? I think that we all kind of get the edge of the point. If you think the alternative is that he's just going to die. Right. That's what I mean. And there may be one, there may be a person that knows something, that has a key to something or somewhere that can maybe help out. And even if it's not someone who you can trust them to this point, it's like, well, what are you going to do? Like, what are you?

[01:13:12] Well, her plan is, which is not a bad plan. She's like, look, maybe we go to the birthing retreat. Because she knows that that's a place where somebody can be inverted. Right. Walk in the front door. It'll be Mark's any. We can ask him directly what we need to know. Maybe that will be, that will do something. Maybe Cobell can get us in.

[01:13:36] So all of a sudden she's thinking, Cobell is our ally to try to sneak into the birthing center. I just, it just makes no sense. Well, she does also know Cobell was fired. So maybe she's like, maybe, you know, by luck, she'll have like a vendetta against Lumen now. Which is why Rugabi is so horrified at the thought because she understands that Cobell is through and through a soldier for Kier. Right. No, I agree with Rugabi on that point for sure.

[01:14:04] And she's doing the, she's doing the big sister thing, right? She's freaking out. And then when she learns that Gemma's alive, like, wow, what a double whammy. And Devin doesn't know Cobell that well. So Devin doesn't know how high up Cobell is and all that. I don't know. Yeah. She's just a middle manager in front of, in charge of her brothers any. I, I don't think she knows that. Right.

[01:14:28] She knows enough about Cobell to make that a very questionable decision to make the call. I don't know what it's like to have someone teach you how to, to, to work with latching. So maybe there's a bond. Once you've been needed a little bit by a person, you have a lifelong bond. All right. Fair enough. On that point, this is a slightly tangential, but it makes me think of this.

[01:14:56] I don't wonder if part of the reason why Devin and Rickon, you know, so they, they're starting their family. And I don't wonder in part of maybe some of Devin's motivations doesn't include making sure that Mark has the experience of being an uncle because he never got to have the experience of being a father. Hmm. Which is just even more heartbreaking when you think about it.

[01:15:22] And then that look at the lunch table, well, it just tells you how much Devin loved Gemma and how much she loves her brother. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:15:35] And it, and I, and maybe to, to Anthony's point too, is that like, because of what we had just witnessed in this episode, which is a masterful storytelling and use of very creative use of montage and, and kind of different media approaches that when we get to the outside world, because all that is a whirlwind. And then we have this other dynamic happening between Raghabi and Devin, which is kind of a big, it's a big dynamic.

[01:16:02] And then it just sort of crumbles with some, I mean, like I, I had probably less of an issue with the co-bell call than I did Raghabi just being like, Oh no, if you're going to call her, then I'm out of here. Okay. You know? And I just like, it was such a, like, there was just no attempt. I mean, cause even when Devin's like, okay, well then wait, you know, like what am I supposed to do? And then she's just like, well, this is the decision you made. And it's like. Yeah. She didn't even call. Yeah.

[01:16:28] So it was a very odd that, that part, I don't even necessarily, necessarily have a, a problem with the way that that was represented, but I'm, but I'm more curious about like why, like, I feel like Raghabi is leaving for another reason. Yeah. And I, I, I wonder if it's like, you know, like she, she needed to get out of there for whatever reason. And, uh, and that was, that was her way out.

[01:16:51] I mean, look, Raghabi is the kind of person who will straight up murder you with a baseball bat from behind. So this is how much she hates Lumen and probably for great reason. Uh, let's try a little bit of bedside manner next time. Shall we? Well, maybe, maybe she just felt like, look, I look, if anyone from Lumen comes in here and sees me, I'm, I'm gone. I'm, I'm done. So I can't even, I can't even flirt with that idea.

[01:17:19] She, when she killed, uh, what was his name? The security guy. That, I mean, that's an extreme response. Was it Grainer? Yeah. Yeah. She didn't hesitate and she swung to kill. She didn't like, oh, like let's knock this guy out and, you know, roll him down a clear way. She made sure that he was dead. So she has that much of a, her assessment of Lumen is that they are that dangerous that she has to respond in kind.

[01:17:48] And, and self-preservation. Right. Let me throw a different idea here. Uh, could it be that Devin did dial Cobell's number when Rugabi's about to leave? Devin hangs up. Rugabi thinks, well, she dialed. Too late. Yeah. It's too late for me now. What they've got, they've got the location.

[01:18:10] Even that little act of dialing and hanging up, uh, means that I've got to, I've got to get out of here as fast as I possibly can. Yeah, that's fair. That's a white rabbit moves fast. You're not going to get away from it. We did have a couple stragglers on feedback. I just wanted to mention, we, we had, uh, Ken W right in right before, before we started to record just to say, wow, smooth and good looking Mark. Didn't see that coming. And my weekly WTF.

[01:18:40] Then Alicia, some of you know her. I didn't play her voice today. Um, she says, interesting that when Mark is comforting Gemma in the shower, the film starts running backward and you can see the water droplets rolling up. And then that transitions to Miss Casey on the severed floor to observe Heli. One of the few moments in this episode that made me start wondering if there might be something timey-wimey going on. Like, do you think that the, the, uh, memories are sort of out of order a little bit?

[01:19:10] That's interesting. I, uh, I had that question cause I forget exactly what it was. There was something that seemed like that, like, this seems like maybe it was, it was had to do with just hair or something. It seemed like, oh, that seemed like that was from a previous time or something. And I can't quite remember what it was, but, um, so then that kind of led to maybe be thinking that there's two sets of memories going on at once maybe.

[01:19:34] But, but I think timing does is, is an interesting factor because I mean, it is important to kind of know how much time is going on. I mean, time is mentioned a little bit in terms of like, you know, the, how much she's experiencing and when she's experiencing Christmas. It's just, it's always Christmas. It's, you know, it's been six weeks, you know, I was just here. Like, I mean, obviously the things we already know, but like, it feels like there was something, uh, drawing more attention to, to the timing. And, and, uh, in this, like I said, with things that I noticed were time.

[01:20:04] And then like the blood, the theme was obviously something that was, was, uh, repeated a lot. And I think that those things are usually trying to try to call attention to something. The real torture of the Christmas room is that they always have wonderful Christmas time by Paul McCartney playing. Oh man. Yeah. I, I would like to be severed from that song. I love that song. I actually like it too, but I know it has a reputation for being like the worst Christmas song.

[01:20:30] Well, my Christmases are, are going to be forever diminished because I don't think I'll ever get a de-grouter as a Christmas gift. That's right. I know. Imagine thinking you got a grouter and then you found out later it was a de-grouter. Brutal. Brutal. Looking forward to all this grouting. Now, now I'm going to be undoing the grout. Terrible. Sarah loved the line. Nothing says, nothing says Christmas like grouting. That's all I got for this episode.

[01:21:00] How about the rest of you? Uh, we get a couple of needle drops. Uh, I already mentioned the one, the waltz with a thousand beats. That is Jacques Brel. He's a Belgian singer songwriter from, and that song is from 1959. And then we have an instrumental version of baby. Maybe it's cold outside. And we have Billie Holiday singing. I'll be seeing you. That's a nice touch though, right? Yeah. The, uh, the, maybe it's cold outside. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:21:28] Like, oh, she just, I'd like, I'd like to go. Nah, you want to stay? Yes, exactly. Right. It, uh, the lyrics of the song mirror nicely. And then we have the outro credit music is, um, from the cold by John Winterstein. Winterstein. Uh, so. Well, we also have the second whistling of the. We do. Edmund Fitzgerald, right? I forget about that. Yep.

[01:21:57] Yeah. And we finally know who that was. Yeah. And that, I guess, is supposed to, you would think would time, right? Right, right. Like the last time we saw him was going in. Oh, right. So that, that at least would put us. Connects the two episodes. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. And again, they're just paying off this, these little mysteries. So they're, they're not dragging them out too long. And so that's, that feels like we're moving somewhere. So, but two more to go.

[01:22:29] Two more to go. Do we know anything about. Three more to go, isn't it? Yeah. Three more to go. Cause there's 10 episodes. Oh, do I know how to count? I don't. I obviously don't. Do we know anything about. Additional seasons or are they just completely mum about that? I thought I had heard three was a go. Okay. I think you better be right. I think Apple is not canceling this thing. No, geez. No. It's like their, their biggest show. Now that Ted Lasso is gone or Ted Lasso is apparently coming back now. Right.

[01:22:59] But, uh. You know what? Apple is so lucrative. It doesn't really matter how much money these shows make. That's true. You know, it's not like the, it's not like they have the Netflix problem. They have to monetize every single thing. Uh, or even the Disney problem. Like Apple is just so wealthy. They don't, they don't need to advertise these shows. They don't necessarily need to keep them going. So I don't know.

[01:23:28] I think, I think if Stiller and, and Erickson say, this is a story we need to tell in three seasons. I think that's kind of what they'll do. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I will say foundation we know was forced to reduce its budget. And so I, I don't know if Apple's and Apple has raised its prices in the last year. So I do think that perhaps they are starting to scrutinize Apple TV a little bit more. Now that's been around a few years, but we'll see. It's possible.

[01:23:59] Yeah. Supposedly they're, they're working on the script and they said that their intent is not to make us wait three years. Well, let's hope. Let's hope. Um, all right. Let's do quick programming notes. Properly Howard. What are you up to? Properly Howard is available for anyone to, uh, to enjoy at their own leisure. We are between seasons, uh, right now. Uh, we, we've got great feedback for our Lost Boys episode.

[01:24:26] If you just want to dive in to one of our, uh, one of more, more celebrated episodes, Lost Boys is, is always fantastic. Do you recommend that people use their different innies to listen to different episodes? Yes. Just make sure, make sure all of your personalities enjoy every episode. Yeah, I would, I would definitely sever maybe from the Death Wish one.

[01:24:51] Anthony, I don't know if you made it through the, all of the last episode that were, you were not with this, but, um, one of your loyal listeners went back and pulled up all of your Properly Howard rankings and put them into a spreadsheet and send them to me. See, I feel like I'm trying to make the world a better place. And now I feel like I failed. Uh, yeah. Spreadsheets, spreadsheets for days. Uh, all right.

[01:25:20] We got other people on the network too. We got radioactive ramblings covering Invincible. You may have heard a pro, a promo for that today, but you may not have because I don't know how the promos work sometimes. And, um. Mysterious, but yet important. That's right. They are mysterious and important. Uh, we've got, we'll shift dust, just finished silo. And Alicia's going to have something cooking on Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast again soon. Nevermind the music. Mark and Nicole, you may have heard them on our supply closet episodes. If you're a subscriber or a season pass holder, they talk about music and psychology.

[01:25:49] I got to say, I was telling Alicia that, uh, something about nevermind the music has me listening to a lot more music again. It has inspired me to, to take a look at my back catalog again. Um, and I appreciate that. Just one more note. Uh, Robbie Benson, who's introduced as Dr. Mauer.

[01:26:11] Uh, he's, he's done a lot of work over the years, including directing, but, uh, our listeners may know him because he was the voice of the beast in Disney's beauty and the beast. Oh, so that's a nice little parallel here. You know, we've got to play the Prince to a beauty and the beast in this episode. Did he play the Prince? Yes, he did. That's right. All right. So he, he might have a nice side. We don't know.

[01:26:39] Um, David, do you have any, well, we didn't talk about anything on the Lord hounds network. Let's very quickly say wheel of time is coming. Yep. Uh, Alicia and I have already started our preseason coverage of that. We have screeners for the whole season. So we're going to be recording ahead. Um, and, uh, and or it's coming soon too. We're starting to make plans for that. And last of us. Yeah. But I, uh, I can't look that far ahead yet. Well, they're at the same time. Oh, that's true. Last of us starts before.

[01:27:20] That's true. This podcast is a joint production of the Lord hounds and properly Howard. Click the link tree in the show notes for links to more podcasts, our discord server, and ways to support the show. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Is it the Frank or the beans?