Severance - S02E08 - Sweet Vitriol

[00:00:05] Hey everyone, David here. Severance is back. The Lorehounds are partnering with Properly Howard to bring you in-depth weekly coverage of Season 2. Join me, John, Anthony, and Steve as we unpack every twist, theory, and revelation. We've created a dedicated feed just for our Severance coverage. Simply search for Severance Lorehounds in your podcast app, or find the direct link to our podcast app.

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[00:02:05] That was fun. Apple Ranch, ha ha. Don't pervert a handbook passage to me, okay? Steve, what was your first job that you ever had that you were paid for, but you did not receive?

[00:02:29] You know, I'm sorry. I just need to apologize. We already recorded this, and I didn't press record. And the listener should know that I actually fought with David just 10 minutes ago over who was going to control the board here. And then I forgot to press record. So, mea culpa. You've been fired as the floor manager for Severance. Yeah, I know. I know. I've been let go. Back to the vats with you.

[00:02:55] Steve, first job, not a, you know, you were paid, but it was not by a relative. It was at an apple ranch in a small town where you and I grew up, Anthony. And you loaded apples? No, I was not allowed to touch the apples. What did you do at the apple ranch? There was rules. You had to work your way up to apples. You start off as a box boy. Did you polish the apples?

[00:03:25] No, I can't touch the apples. So, each type of apple would have a different type of tray. Did you pick the apples? No, I was not allowed to touch the apples. It's very clear that there was apple touching. It was not a job for me. Yeah, so I would just get boxes for people. And so, you'd run upstairs. And what the thing is, the boxes weren't put together yet. Like, they were just flat, flat cardboard.

[00:03:48] And then you would assess the situation, and you would get all those flat, the right flat boxes to the box makers. Those guys would have, there's a huge, like, foot pedal that would make, like, massive staples into these boxes. And you would, they would have, there was like a, there's a whole process to it. It was very dangerous. And I watched somebody staple their thumb open, like, just right down the middle. Boom. And just. And how much were you being paid for this job?

[00:04:14] I don't, like, this is, because this has got to be what, mid-80s? Yeah. Late 80s? So, I'm assuming I got paid in sarcasm. All right, David, first job. You got paid for it, but it was not by a relative. Well, when you had first asked me the question, I had forgotten that I had a prior job to the one that I had remembered,

[00:04:43] which was working at the food service court for the zoo in Portland, Oregon. But my very first real paid, legit job was an afternoon newspaper delivery route. And I must have been in, like, the fourth grade or something like that. And I think, I don't even know if I lasted a week. And I think I ghosted after, like, three or four days, because it was just, the monotony was grueling.

[00:05:12] Do you remember how much you were paid? In rubber bands and nice comments. Calluses. Were you, was this, like, community service? I mean, why, like, did you go out of the way? No, it was, like, a legit job. Like, hey, you know, like, get a job with the paper. Okay, cool. You know, that'll be fun. You know, work experience builds character, all that bullshit. The newspapers coming to elementary schools, like, like Marine recruiters. Exactly. You want to get back to your community, son? You want to be the source of news?

[00:05:43] Two dollars. Extra, extra, read all about this. Two dollars. So, my first job was my neighbor paid me to stack wood and mow his lawn. His lawn was, like, he had, like, two acres. So, there was a lot of mowing. And it was me with a walkman, Van Halen 5150. Nice.

[00:06:09] Which had to be loud enough to be heard over the lawnmower. Which, I'm sure, did permanent damage to my ears. How old were you? Uh, probably nine. Probably nine years old. Yeah. And that was, uh, that was pre-Sammy Hagar, wasn't it? Yeah, I don't know where I got the tape. Because my parents probably wouldn't have let us into that. No, I know. You probably found it, like, in the yard where you were mine. No, no, no.

[00:06:38] It was Sammy Hagar. It was his. Yeah. Was that his first album? I, it was probably his first one. I had another one. I had 1984 as well. But it was 5150 that really helped me through my, my workaday life. Sure. And I think I was paid like $3 an hour for this. Hmm. Yeah. Did you have, you didn't have any hay fever issues, obviously, if you were mowing that much of all your life. I don't remember. Okay. I, I really don't remember.

[00:07:08] Um, all, all of his $3 an hour went to, um, like allergy pills. Right. Rhesus and Sprite. That's, that's, that I bought at Vern's Mark. Um, all right, David, let's do a little bit of housekeeping before we jump into the episode. Absolutely. Absolutely. Severance at the lorehounds.com is the email address. You can get us feedback to if you have questions, comments, uh, if you have any admonitions that you want to, uh, subject to, uh, you know, have us.

[00:07:37] Um, um, what was the, uh, the employee performance review? What does he have? What did he have to do to, uh, say like absolutions? He had to say, anyway, I forget what they called it in the show. If you want to join our conversation, uh, in near real time, we have a community discord. All of our different episode threads are severed so you can be safe from any spoilers. Uh, links for both of those are in the show notes below.

[00:08:05] If you would like to hear this podcast ad free and have access to Stephen Anthony's season one recap, as well as all of our bonus supply closet episodes, uh, you can get a season pass for just five bucks. We just had a pretty, uh, good, uh, conversation with Nicole from Nevermind the Music and Marilyn Arpikila, who's one of our favorite Tolkien scholars.

[00:08:32] We really went deep into the, the, the Buddhist concept of Chakai Bardot talked, uh, in depth about what the concept of ego death and then also the concept of grief as a phenomenon. I really appreciate your honesty here. You called it a pretty good conversation. Which suggests, you know, maybe B plus conversation. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that sounds about worth, you know, five bucks. Yeah. It's worth five bucks. Yeah.

[00:09:00] Uh, there's a severed version that's out for the Audis and you can check that on the main feed. And then there's a longer, more extended conversation that's available for season pass and regular subscribers. Um, and I'm sure we're going to have a couple more of those before the season ends, but, uh, yeah, I think that's about it for a housekeeper. Steve hot take. What's your favorite link on sweet vitriol? Um, taken, I was taken aback by the, the length of time, right?

[00:09:30] 37 minutes. So it's a, it's a shorter episode for sure. Um, but, uh, I, I think it was kind of, and again, I don't know how, how, how, how many episodes are decided is decided, but I think that this was a good one to just isolate. Right. Just basically the only thing that we, the only interaction we get with macro data refiners is Mark's voice at the end. Right. So, I mean, this is like, there's bare bones in episode in terms of casting.

[00:10:00] Um, I thought, uh, the James, is it the Degrasse? Is that how it's pronounced? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, loved him in point break. This is some of his best work. Um, he was great in this. Uh, I I'm curious if, because you know how shows and stories evolve, um, as, as production goes on, I'm curious if this was always intended.

[00:10:26] That Cobell being the, uh, inventor of severance was always part of the plan or if it's kind of something that evolved, um, as production went along. Um, just because, you know, you know, sometimes these types of things change. It's, uh, it's interesting how we, we get an answer to a mystery that we never asked for. Right. Like, I mean, this is not like, we would never were like, I wonder who really invented it. Or if there was more to it than that.

[00:10:56] And then we find out that, wow, this is, and then it's a big reveal, but I don't know what it does. Like for me. Right. Like, I mean, I guess in terms of, uh, I didn't feel like anything was solved except this one mystery. Oh, there were a few things that this revealed that I was, you know, I found help. Uh, how to huff ether. No, I already knew how to do that. Um, David hot take on sweet vitriol.

[00:11:26] When the episode faded to black, I was like, wait, what? And then I checked the time. I didn't look at the time at a time. And so I was pretty shocked at how short it was. Me too. That said, I've heard a lot of, uh, grousing on the internet and there's various opinions. Oh, this is my least favorite. It was so short. Da, da, da.

[00:11:51] And after reflection, my thought is it. And we, we talk about this for a lot of different television shows, you know, like, oh, why the short episode? Why this long episode? Oh, the pacing. Oh, the number of episodes in a season. Da, da, da. Uh, and I, for one, at least for this show, am applauding the showrunners for making an appropriately linked episode for the story element that they wanted to tell.

[00:12:21] They told the story that they wanted to tell. They moved the story forward in a number of different ways and they did it efficiently and beautifully and with impact. And they didn't need to do more. They didn't need to fill it up and they didn't need to pull it back. Everything on screen was there for a reason, except maybe for Kobel huffing on her mom's breathing tube for kind of an extended period.

[00:12:46] Maybe that was the one indulgent moment of this episode, but otherwise, you know, I felt it was pretty good. So I kind of applaud them at the same time as a fan and as somebody who is wanting entertainment, I did feel a little bit short shrifted. I was like, oh, wait, I was expecting like a full hour of my evening to be taken up with this show and, you know, whatever. So I was like, it was a little abrupt in that regard.

[00:13:11] And I can understand why some people don't find this particular episode, quote unquote, their favorite from an entertainment standpoint. But from a story standpoint and from a season standpoint, do not sleep on this episode. There's a ton of stuff that's embedded in here. And yeah, I think, you know, obviously it was beautifully shot. It's, you know, beautiful drone work. The color grading is like super intense in this episode.

[00:13:41] There was some stuff, and I'd mentioned this before, the way that they light Patricia Arquette, the way that the catch light, the little light from their studio lights, you know, that's reflecting in her eye. It makes her seem possessed, like she's got this holy fire within.

[00:14:01] And they still are doing it in this episode, especially when they're, her and Magnus, no, sorry, not Magnus, Hampton are sitting up in her mom's room huffing ether, you know, as we all did when we were that, you know, young age. And the way that they light her face and the light in her eyes, just extraordinary. I mean, this is some of the best television cinematography I think I've ever seen.

[00:14:29] Great storytelling in terms of the bleakness and the harshness of this world of Salt's Neck. The Lumen, there was on the side of the building, there was a logo, it said Lumen Industries, which is different because they normally just says Lumen. Yeah. And this one said Lumen Industries. And so it's interesting. Oh, they're, they're extra, you know, their industrial arm has a different brand identity slightly, but here they are, this sort of extractive industry, you know, extracting both creating ether.

[00:14:58] And I've got a whole bunch of notes on ether, by the way. Yeah. Just on the point about living in that town. And I think this is also goes to Steve's point about only ever following Cobell in this episode, you know, not cutting to these other characters makes the, makes the experience of the town feel like, oh no, there are people that live in here, live here all the time. Right. Right.

[00:15:27] We only have to be here 37 minutes, but it was just enough time to give us a picture of like how frail it feels to live in this town. How, you know, what, what does it look like when Lumen is done using people up? Exactly. Exactly. And if you start cutting to other characters, you get a little bit of relief from that experience. I like that. That's a good perspective. But because they stick with Cobell, it really, you know, you, you really have to live there.

[00:15:56] You really have to experience what she's experiencing. And seeing the aftermath. Yeah. It's real key that we don't, that we are sort of stuck in this town. And I, and I, and it does, it does work in many ways. And I, yeah, right. I mean, I think if it switches over to something else, like it helps, it does two things. Right.

[00:16:16] I mean, it helps you feel, feel kind of alone in this town and, and, and to experience the bleakness, but it also, it sort of puts the spotlight on this episode and whether, you know, well, I didn't get my, this, or I didn't get the answer to that. It's like, yeah, but this is clearly a spotlight on this episode or on this, on this particular event. And, and it, to me that just heightens. So it's like, yeah, I hear you, like I was saying, sort of like, oh, they answered a, you know, a mystery that I never thought to look for or, or seemingly seem to care about.

[00:16:46] But I think it says, no, this matters. Like, this is a pretty, it, I think it not only matters for Cobell and her journey, but I think it also matters for the constant, just Lumen as a concept. Right. Right. And, and the Eagans as, as these sort of geniuses. Right. And it's like, so not only are you taking advantage of this small town, but you're also kind of harvesting intelligence and you're finding, you know, you're through these, maybe these winter tide programs.

[00:17:14] As you're finding these really intelligent people that then you can then take advantage of and say, well, you know, and thing is, you find this in corporations all the time. It's like, you've signed, I've signed so many things that said anything that I develop while as an employee is, is it becomes a patent of that company. I can get the recognition on a plaque, but they own it.

[00:17:37] And so, and, and it's the, you know, there'll be walls and walls of all these patents and they have all these names on them, but it's like, those guys may get like a. They'll die in poverty. Well, they might, yeah, they might get like a, you know, some sort of like spot bonus and they get to have some sort of a ceremony. But at the end of the day, they're not the ones profiting off of this. Yeah. This idea. So two consequences for sort of being a part of Lumen.

[00:18:03] I think that one option would be like Hampton where he's been used up and abandoned. And now he kind of has to live in the aftermath and, and not, not a great existence because he's addicted. And. Although I do hear the pie at the drippy pot cafe is pretty tasty. Okay. Um, the other option is co-bell who's basically on the run.

[00:18:28] You know, she has to, you know, she has to sneak to sissy's house in the back of a truck because she's worried that people will be watching. So these are the two consequences for not being under the Lumen umbrella. Once you have been, uh, either you're abandoned or you're on the lamb. So I think that this episode kind of raises the stakes for us. You know, yeah, definitely in a lot of ways. And, and I think.

[00:18:58] That. Whatever. Was unspoken. Mm hmm. Between Helena. And. Harmony in the parking lot. Where she's like, yeah, come on inside and, you know, we'll, we'll reset. And, and, uh, co-bell was just like, I'm none of that. I'm out. And she, she ran. That.

[00:19:25] She's now a woman on fire as is the needle drop from, you know, the, the, the closing credits music. Fire woman, sorry. Uh, and. And she's on a mission to do something. She's going to, she wants to tip over the proverbial apple cart. We're going to have to discuss what that possibly is. Uh, let's take a quick break.

[00:19:59] All right. Let me jump into my synopsis of this episode. Uh. Harmony. Do you mind if I just interject? Did I mention that John was dealing with some, uh, family things? His kids apparently were misbehaving at the, at the factory. They only worked eight and a half hours instead of 10 at the. So he's not with us today. That's a problem. Problem for child labor. Cobell arrives at salt's neck. Her rabbit.

[00:20:26] She ignores a call from Devin and pops into an ether cafe. After a cold exchange with the proprietor, she asked him to meet her at the factory. She asked her childhood chum to drive her to sissy's house. After a bit of resistance, she hides in his truck bed. Again, she refuses Devin's call. So you already mentioned Steve, uh, James DeGross.

[00:20:54] I think that's how we pronounce his name. And you mentioned him in point break. Yes. Uh, I think. And, and phantasm one, two, and three, if you're really trying to keep track. All right. Okay. Okay. And I heard Stiller say that he remembered him from urban cowboy. Oh, interesting. And that's why he wanted him for this role. And I wonder if he's going to be this, a one-off character.

[00:21:22] Like, will we ever meet Hampton again? What do you think? Well, we see, we see the, the lumen, we're assuming the lumen headlights headed his way. Right. So it would, it could stand a reason that, uh, he could be useful to them. Or he gets abducted. He's pretty stroppy though.

[00:21:47] I mean, the way that he talks to sissy later, uh, or even is giving, uh, Cobell sort of some attitude when she first walks in, you know, over, over whether she's going to buy a cup of coffee or not. I would think that he would spit in their face, you know, if he were taken hostage, I think he would spit in their face as long as he could muster a breath. I don't think he's right. Right. He hates. And even says later, your mom hated lumen as much as I do.

[00:22:15] So I don't think he's, if they were going to get information from him, it would have to be under extreme duress. I think in concert with the adage show, not tell, I loved this character Rose. She was the one with the oxygen tank in the drippy pot.

[00:22:36] I didn't really catch it first watch, but then afterwards, when we find out sort of one of the major themes of this episode, she makes sense. She, she needs an oxygen tank because she was exposed to chemicals as a child laborer. You know, she's the right age for that.

[00:22:56] And so, you know, that, that's a little, you know, a little plant at the beginning of the episode that brings texture to kind of the dreariness of this town without kind of holding your hand and saying, you know, Rose, you know, they don't take you aside and say, you know, you know, you know why Rose needs that tank. Right. Yeah. Johnny exposition isn't there to interpret the world for us. Yeah. This is a show without Johnny exposition. Yeah.

[00:23:24] And even, even when she's driving through town, is it when she's driving through town or the truck's driving? I can't remember. We pass a building that has a Lumen quote on it that basically says that Egan's ether is a cure for mankind. It's very faded on a red wall. Lumen's imprint is all over this place, not just in terms of their aftermath, but you just the faded signs on the ceiling or a lot of the walls.

[00:23:54] You really get the sense that almost everyone in this town was once an employee of Lumen, right? Yep. Is this our world? This could be our world. In this episode, which is a little different than a lot of the episodes we've seen.

[00:24:18] I don't get the sense that anyone in this town would go to like a foodless dinner club or whatever it was. Mm hmm. Or go to one of Rickon's book readings. This really felt lived in. This felt like, yeah, I felt like I could meet any one of these characters, you know, at a diner in Newfoundland.

[00:24:45] There was a bunch of chatter today on Discord, too, about that. Is this our, you know, not directly is this our world, but people were sort of baiting around this. And we've talked about it before with the anachronistic cars, with the cell phones. Like Devin shows a picture of Rickon on a cell phone. We even see a modern cell phone in this particular episode. And all of that, to me, you know, and then people were saying, oh, like where in the world is this place? Because there's icebergs. And is this the Great Lakes?

[00:25:14] And how far did she drive? And, you know, trying to work out the geography. And for me, all of that stuff is to displace me out of my world, out of our shared primary world. I don't, I don't, I'm not trying to go like, where is Salt's neck on the map? You know, like what year is, I'm not doing any of that.

[00:25:36] So for me, at least that's the way I'm just using those on-screen elements as a way to deconstruct my wanting to know where are we, when are we, what is this? And put my attention on other things in the story, I guess. So this may or may not help. And I want to get Steve's take on this. But in the official podcast, Stiller said, we wanted a place that would be a plausible driving distance from upstate New York.

[00:26:04] And to me, that made it sound like Keir, the town of Keir, is in upstate New York, which I always kind of guessed like maybe Pacific Northwest or maybe, and then I thought, maybe near Utah. But it makes sense that it would be upstate New York because in the 1800s, there were all kinds of new religious movements that were popping up. And that's exactly sort of when you would have big factories.

[00:26:33] Yeah, the industrialization of the Northeast. So it makes sense that that is where this is. But I don't know if that answers your question, Steve. Is this our world? What do you think? Well, and that's, yeah. So I guess that's to David's point is kind of like, I think it does somehow help frame a lot of our theory crafting and things of that nature, right?

[00:26:58] If we find out that, you know, we suggest it's modern, but we don't know if this is maybe future. We don't know if this is future after an event. Oh. We don't know if, because I mean, there's a lot of old cars, but there's new technology, which could suggest something. There may have been something that happened that gave an opportunity for like a Keir type situation to bloom.

[00:27:27] But I mean, obviously this goes way back in time. Civil War is mentioned. Right. So it's like there is an overlap of what we believe. I mean, it's just, I mean, it's probably at best to say this is just a fictional version of our world in many cases because this is just how it works. But it's because it's so expansive. And the thing about lumen being global and the thing about, so it's not like, oh, there's just this one area where it's isolated.

[00:27:51] You know, we're to believe that lumen is a worldwide phenomenon and that's a pretty big deal. Right. I mean, so I think it, I think a little bit of geography does matter. A little bit of wind does matter when it comes to trying to find out, well, what are these things mean?

[00:28:07] What is, you know, how is, you know, looking back to on Woe's Hollow and starting to wonder about things like simulations, because looking at what, like rewatching Woe's Hollow again the other night, you know, they, they wake in this area, this, this winter scape. And then they look one way and it's, there's nothing. And then they look, they turn back around and now there's a television and a VCR that is plugged into nothing and it's on.

[00:28:34] And it wasn't there a second ago. So it starts to make you wonder about what is, what is real. Right. And so we see a salt's neck and we're there. And then I just, but I just start to question because that was a pretty expansive world that they were in during Woe's Hollow. That is a little bit simulation like, right. I mean, at least some of it was contrived, right? Right.

[00:29:02] Are you, you thinking that this is a, some kind of simulated world or are you. So I'm just saying that, that, that, that going back to, and looking at Woe's Hollow through a lens like that, and then going into a room where. Miss, you know, with Gemma's just on a plane and, you know, we're sitting there saying, oh, well, this is like, they've got this really elaborate set where it's all shaking and doing.

[00:29:27] I mean, I'm like, do they, I mean, is it as simple as they have a fake plane that she's in or is there something else going on here? And we know that they can transport people farther right there. They didn't, Irving didn't come out of an elevator when he showed up. Right. The, the, the, the severance chip signal range is pretty wide because I mean, even in the town of Kier during the overtime contingency, people were spread out all over the place.

[00:29:56] So there's a broadcast range for this chip, right? You know, and they, that, that takes some transmission power. Like what is, what's going on there? So yeah, like if they're all the way out in the Eagan national forest, far from Lumen headquarters. Right. So this is, we run into the technology problem here again, because it's like, if I'm going to imagine that there's an airplane setting on the chip in my head that would make me hallucinate an airport experience.

[00:30:26] Then why can't they just track me? Like, why isn't there also a tracker in my head to tell them, you know, where I am? You know, why couldn't they just track PD when, when he was out and about? Yeah. So it's a pretty small chip. So that's a lot of technology packed into it. Ah, yeah. It's good. These are questions that the show does not want to answer yet. No. So, um, all right. Anything else? We did get a glimpse in the little notebook though, but you know, that's true.

[00:30:56] That's true. Yeah. Uh, anything else about the drippy pot before we move on to the, uh, the heart of the episode? I think his name is Magnus who had the beautiful head of hair and took the free sample of ether. I don't, they spent a lot of time. He got a lot of screen time for an extra, uh, where Rose was certainly part of the frailty.

[00:31:21] He, uh, Magnus certainly looked more capable and less like he didn't give me the, the image of the old broken down old timer in the back of the saloon kind of thing. Uh, as more as, um, I just, I'm putting a question mark over him and, you know, is he the guy that's driving up? Is he, uh, is he a, I noticed that too. Like it was, he just didn't match the vibe. Yeah.

[00:31:47] And he was on screen just a little too long, you know, so that we imprint him. Yeah. I don't, I don't, I don't really know whether, how much of this, how, how much of this episode provides texture or if there are details that are meant to be interpreted. Mm. And I'm not sure we're going to get an answer to that.

[00:32:13] He seems like a kind of, he seems like the kind of guy who we will never see again. I don't know about him. Right. Yeah. It's in this is, but this is one of the, probably one of those episodes where on the surface has the least amount of, uh, things to try to decipher for what has become the, the severance fan. Right.

[00:32:34] I mean, we're constantly looking for, for some sort of a clue into everything to the point where it's like the fact that we see nothing that must really be something, you know? And so it's like, and so this episode, at least on the surface, uh, feels the most straightforward. Right. Uh, in many ways. Right. I mean, we, we understand, like, I mean, when you think of how the, how, how this plot moves along, we don't go, we're not wrestling with, there's no any out of day. Was that literally a day?

[00:33:05] Right. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's like no, any outie to our knowledge, uh, you know, interaction. These are just people outside of, you know, still in a, in a lumen, uh, controlled or at least lumen influenced world. But at this point we don't have like a, we don't necessarily see like a direct lumen threat until we get, we see some ominous, uh, headlights and we heard about Mr. Drummond, uh, coming down.

[00:33:32] But I mean, so it is an interesting one where it's sort of, so, cause I'm like pausing when she's going through the altar, Sissy's altar, you know, trying to, and then I'm like, oh, look, there's that. And then the next shot is like that. And I'm like, oh, okay. Well, they're going to show it anyway. Well, and then they start the whole episode off with this ocean, right? This top down ocean thing. Like, oh, what is this? You know, I was looking up, what does the ocean mean? What's the symbology? Oh, unconscious of power. Oh, life mysteries. I'm like, man, it's just an ocean shot. Right. No, exactly. Exactly.

[00:34:03] Trying to, trying to undo some of this stuff is, is, is kind of hard. Cause then it's like, it almost takes the enjoyment out of it a little bit. So that's why I like to watch it a couple of times and just sort of like let one just sort of wash over. And then the next one is one, if I want to sit there and really go through it, um, you know, little things that you find out later and I'm sure we'll get to it when the next one, but, uh, there were some, there were some, some takeaways.

[00:34:25] Uh, I just, it was just, it was just kind of wild to think about how ether is a big deal for Lumen's history. All right. I have. Yeah. Let's, let's get, let's give you a little, uh, time to cook with your ether research. Okay. Thanks. I got a couple of things too. And I'll see what you got. Okay, cool.

[00:34:45] Um, so it was discovered originally by this German botanist named Cordes and he called it the sweet oil of vitriol, which is, uh, our episode title. And I think that has more to do with the vitriolic nature of the chemicals that are used to create ether, uh, ethanol and sulfuric acid. And it seems like he was just doing some general research on some stuff.

[00:35:13] He was a chemist and a botanist and he didn't just, he wasn't trying to discover something. He discovered this by accident. And then, uh, it started, people started using it and they had ether frolics, frolics. Ah. Where they would have parties and they would huff ether because it induced this, you know, euphoric state.

[00:35:36] Um, and then as people were dancing around getting all high and stuff like that and stumbling around, they're like, oh, I just bashed my head into this table, but I've got no pain. And so, uh, some other people, uh, a guy named Morton and, uh, I think was there another guy? Crawford, uh, no Crawford long, long, uh, 1842. And then another guy in 1846, they started just using it and demonstrating it in, in medical practitioners. Yeah.

[00:36:05] That's what I was associated with. Like, you know, old timey doctors that don't have better tools are going to use ether to knock you out because they got to saw your leg off or something. Exactly. And until later, and part of the reason that they moved away from it is not only were people getting addicted to it and not only was it causing a whole bunch of health complications, right? It's bad for your kidneys. It's bad for your brain.

[00:36:33] You start, your skin starts to dry out. Yeah. Yeah. You've got cognitive impairments, but it's also extremely volatile, right? And the, the stuff can get lit up. So if you're having a cigarette and then huffing some ether, you know, you're, you're in some, some good danger. Um, apparently at one point, even B it was so widely used that Catholic priests in Ireland were promoting people drink ether instead of alcohol. Oh.

[00:36:58] And, uh, apparently, uh, in Poland between the world wars, there was like a big smuggling ring because people were into it so much in, in Poland. And then just, I think over time. And so it was obviously used in dentistry, uh, as important to our storyline. Uh, and then just later as they found other alternatives, uh, you know, basically ether created the whole science of anesthesiology.

[00:37:25] And so people were looking for other things and they were like, you know, this stuff kind of sucks. It's kind of dangerous to use. So let's figure some other stuff out. And so eventually they did and they, they, they stopped using it, but there's a ton of industrial emissions from production. It's not biodegradable. A lot of soil and water contamination involved in the, um, in the production of it. Um, so yeah. Okay. Quick question for you, Mr. Ether Scholar.

[00:37:53] In order to produce this, you probably needed to have factories that were dedicated to the chemistry of producing ether. For the volume. Right. The volume that they were trying to push out. When did the last of these factories get shut down in our world? That is a question I do not have an answer for. I think it was phased out not long after in the early 1900s, I think is when it started to get phased out. Okay.

[00:38:22] So, I mean, that was one thing that Sarah brought up. She's like, when, when, when did, when were these people children? Right. Because, because it, it, it really makes you think like, am I watching people who live in my world who, but were children in the late 1800s? Or that were the mid, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this information. Yeah. That's a really good question.

[00:38:49] See that, so that's why I was kind of pushing on the, is this our world? Right. And why, because it could imply something about aging and time and all of that. Or cloning, right? Or cloning, for sure. Yeah. So, I mean, there's, there's, there are elements here that, that suggest that like maybe nobody that we're seeing has not, has not been impacted by Lumen.

[00:39:14] Not just by virtue of working at a factory when they're young, but just in terms of what Lumen's brand or reach might be. And might explain some of that. Was there an event? And what does that mean? The 30s is when it started to decline. And then in the 50s, and then it just, from there, it went further down. Okay. As modern chemistry started going up. So, 19, figure 1930.

[00:39:40] So, you could imagine, all right, let's say officially 1930, but maybe there's a pocket of like the forgotten, like a little town, you know, maybe upstate New York. It's kind of been forgotten by the rest of the world. And everyone in the town is part of this little cult. Could they have kept production going? So, that this particular factory existed decades later.

[00:40:10] After everything else shut down. I mean, I kind of. I don't buy that. Yeah. See that. And I could have. I could have my dates wrong. My dates could be wrong. Okay. Yeah. All right. We're left with the problem. When were these people children? Right. I don't have an answer to this yet. Well, when they were born. Because of when they were born, obviously. Sorry. I mean, that was so obvious. Like, I can't not. Nobody can't not hit that. But I mean, again, going back to like always looking for clues. Right.

[00:40:39] And whether it's a good habit or a bad habit. It's made mention more than once to Miss Wong. But why are you a child? And when something like that, like, you know, it's funny. But when it's mentioned a second time, you get to a point where you're like, this feels like this is a call out. This is something that is going to matter. Right. And so. Yeah.

[00:41:04] To Anthony's point, I mean, child labor, when she was last time she huffed ether, was it was it eight years? Yeah. Right. And. And again, it's like if this is supposed to be even quasi our world, we've changed. You know, ether is like a foundational piece for Lumen. It's so much. They put it in a lot of lore. Right. There's a lot of lore drops. Right.

[00:41:30] And I mean, if you want to follow the frolic concept, almost as if to say, like, we did frolic. What did did this beget the frolic that's in their tenant? Or is, you know, or is it just coincidental? I don't know. There's something very interesting about how much there is civil war references.

[00:41:53] And there's so many things that do place us in specific moments in American history and call that out specifically to then have some of these moments that are a little bit disjointed in terms of time. Right. I'm going to call to question. I think the 1930s date that I quoted you is maybe not in not correct. And it might even be later. So there could be. And again, I'm doing like fast Internet searches right here while we're talking.

[00:42:22] And so, like, this is all highly suspect. Yeah. So we're going to get the worst responses from ether experts. Yeah, we would. We would like everyone, everyone who could possibly do a search on this to email David at the lorehounds dot com with specific dates and be sure that you use course language to correct. All right. Let's go ahead and take a break.

[00:42:51] And we're back. Let's go ahead and jump into the heart of this episode. Harmony pushes back Sissy and enters her childhood home. A heated exchange between aunt and niece reveals that Mr. Drummond has inquired after her, that her mother was glad to die and that Harmony was something of a child prodigy. Harmony demands a key to her dead mother's room. Then she tosses Sissy's room looking for said key.

[00:43:19] So we meet Sissy here. Thoughts about this new interesting person in our lives? Why do you bring me nothing but woe? She does bring me a lot of woe, this person. I don't know about you guys, but I have all of the villains I've met in this show. This person really got to me. This person. Really?

[00:43:49] Yeah. This person is perfectly embodies someone who's sort of a religious oppressor. I was going to say, is it her adherence to the nine? I don't know what that is. All I know is get me as far away from the nine as possible. I kept going House of the Dragon, Game of Thrones, whatever. Oh, the seven? The seven. Interesting. The way that they said the nine.

[00:44:17] So what do you think is, let's talk about the nine. So at one point, Hampton says, well, she still lives out by the nine, suggesting that it's a geographic location in this little town. And then later on, okay, just a second. And then later on, Sissy accuses Cobell's mother. You know, she says it's a shame that she couldn't find solace in the nine.

[00:44:47] So what were you going to say, David? They're the nine core principles of Lumen Industries and the followers of Kier. Harmony had a needlepoint that had the nine of them written out. And I think somewhere else in season one, it's vision, verve, wit, cheer, humility, benevolence, nimbleness, probity, and wiles. So yeah, there were some cards in her room that had a few of these on them.

[00:45:18] But then, all right, so that makes sense. When she says she's living by the nine, I think she's adhering to the nine. Correct. She's living by the nine. Thank you, Steve. That helps. That helps me a lot. So living by the nine is sort of like insider speak for still living according to the way. Correct. Right. This is the way. All right. So, yeah. Yeah.

[00:45:45] Super imposing figure. Very, very well acted. She. It's interesting to see. Cobell get out. Cobelled by somebody. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's the thing, right? I mean, that that was sort of her whole. Her way. She was supposed to be. She was. She. She. Managed MDR. She did all that with this.

[00:46:15] Kind of. Just foreboding. Religious. Adherence. And. Kind of a piety that sort of justified her actions. And treated them like children. In the same way that this woman. Right. Exactly. So she's. We're kind of seeing her source material. Right. For. For how. For how to. To treat people. And then ultimately. For probably from her perspective. It's like. Well, this is how I could be kept in line.

[00:46:44] So therefore, this is how you keep others in line. Yeah. I also noticed. By the way. By the way. The sound of the. Of the cure him. In different forms. Being played throughout. Yeah. Her journey. That was really something. I really love that. Did you two notice the. Figuring heads above the. Sure. Yeah. On the wall there. Yeah. So. With the bone. You get those at the Lumen McDonald's. Happy meals. So just to call it out for. I mean, I'm sure all of our astute listeners.

[00:47:15] Caught this. Well, but. A little. Kind of paper mache heads. Yep. On the shelf. That corresponded to the heads that we met at the waffle party. First time. Correct. So that tells me that there's some kind of. Cure mythology. Where these kind of archetypes. Are prominent. Doesn't that go into the. The four humors. Or the. Sorry.

[00:47:44] They're not humors. What are they called? There's. There's too many of these. There's too many of these. Tempers. Tempers. Tempers. The nine. The nine principles. Too many. Too many. All right. By the way, that's Jane Alexander. Who was playing Sissy Cobell. Well, she's amazing. And. Well, a storied actor. And. Holy moly. I. I. I just. I don't know.

[00:48:14] I feel like walking away from this episode. I can't help but feel sympathy for harmony. In the same. That's. Yeah. That's a good device, right? Because it's like now I see her. I kind of see her origin story in a way that makes me feel like. Oh, well. You were abused. Hmm. You know, you were. You were used for child labor. And this woman who, you know, the plaque on her wall said like matron of. What was it?

[00:48:44] Matron of. Quarterly striver. Fourth quarter. Year of vision. Youth apprentice matron. Youth apprentice matron. Right. That's it. Lumen Industries. So she was. She was a part of a. Systematic abuse. That's basically what we're looking at here. And so what kind of person. Is left. In the wake of that. And so now I can't help but. Feel a little bit of sympathy for harmony.

[00:49:13] And even though she was sort of the big baddie. In the first season. Well, and this is what I think what kind of David was leading to, too, in terms of talking about the right amount of time for the right story to tell. And why I think it is important that we don't have side stories. And why we do follow. The 37 straight minutes of harmony. Cobell, because this is a major shift. And I feel. Again, talk about how. What they can do with an economy of time.

[00:49:41] How masterfully. This is a stiller directed episode. Is I. I feel like in this episode. That I have seen. Cobell, the child. In a factory. I feel like I've seen Cobell. The. Being manipulated in the. Lumen all girls school. I see her. Almost like her. Her religious rise. To believing that. You know. This is for cure. So this is. There's not about taking credit.

[00:50:11] This is dying to my own ego type of thing. The abuse that she may have received at home. The grief that she had over. Not. Getting. You know. Getting to say goodbye to her mother. All the betrayal from Lumen. All of. Anything else. She may be rescued. We don't. I mean. We don't know for sure what her next moves are. We don't know for sure if she's like going to have this redemptive arc. Because she could be too damaged for that. But what we do know is we just saw.

[00:50:40] We just saw a person so well humanized. That was kind of just this ominous figure before. In such a. It's such an economy of time. And it's really something how. It did. It wouldn't feel like a stretch. If I was to suddenly start maybe rooting for harmony. To some degree. Well. I think that. To be able to pull that off. Yeah. It's pretty wild. I think that. You can root for her. Either on a redemptive arc. Or just as an instrument.

[00:51:09] For chaos. Right. Right. Here's someone who is like. You kind of want to see what kind of damage she can do. Right. In a revenge story. At this. I don't think she. For whatever revenge motives she has. And whatever effect she will rot. Reek. Whatever. Whatever results she's going to get. Yeah. They're her reasons. They're not for Mark.

[00:51:39] They're not for Gemma. You know. She is. She's going to overturn the apple cart for herself. Not for anybody else. Not to. Not to right the wrongs of the world. But to. Put the Eagans into place. And put. You know. In a place that. And then. That she can have power. Some sort of power. Mm-hmm. Or whatever her vision is. For the severed technology. The severance technology. I just want to rewind for a minute. Back to your hot take, Steve. Where you said. You know.

[00:52:08] Kind of revealed. Who invented severance. But it was kind of a. Mystery. We didn't even know we wanted. Solved. Right. I guess. There was a mystery with Miss Wong. To me. Like. What am I looking at? Am I looking at. Sort of a clone. But this is sort of a. Adult mind. And a. Child's body. Or am I looking at child labor. And.

[00:52:38] Because that's. That's almost even weirder. In our. In our. Yeah. You know. In upstate New York. And. You know. Whenever this is. I do think that there's something about. That. That was kind of gnawing at. Like every single time I saw Miss Wong. I thought. When are you going to answer this? Because this is the only thing I'm thinking about. And. What this episode did was. It said. No. It's child labor. And. This has been going on for a long time.

[00:53:07] And they have a training academy. Yeah. That is. Accelerating the development of these kids. Intellectually at least. Right. And maybe it started out as factory work. But now it's sort of been sanitized. You know. You call it something different. Well. I think. I think. Like I said earlier. I said. Like. I think. They're. To some degree. They're harvesting. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You have these child laborers. You have them in this. In these environments. And then you see who the exceptional ones are. And then you harvest them for. This. For this program.

[00:53:37] Wintertide. Yeah. Yeah. Wintertide program. And then what you're doing is now. You've. You. Instead of maybe. Using them for their. Child labor physically. Now you're using them for. For their intellect. Right. And you have them in a way that you've kind of. They're much. They're much more malleable. They're. They're. Much. You can groom them. To sort of move. The direction you want to move them. So I think there's something. It does. It reveals.

[00:54:06] We already kind of assumed something sinister. But it kind of reveals a little bit more of the ick factor of. Of how sinister. Yeah. And I really appreciated how they did that. They took their time. And. They. They answered the. The Miss Wong question. By giving me better depth. Into one of the. The more important characters. Of the first season. So even though you've introduced Wong in the second season. You've solved the Miss Wong mystery through Cobell.

[00:54:36] And at the same time. Given me. Sort of her backstory. Origin story. Kind of thing. I really. Quite like this episode. For that reason. And. On top of that. It. Might. Tell us that Miss Wong. Is something of a prodigy. Right? Right. And. And you've expanded the world of Lumen. Yeah. That's right. What they do. Who they are. How they operate. Right. So the. The world building. As well as the character development. Well. And then the fallout too. Right. You see this entire town. That is like. Shattered.

[00:55:05] Sissy tells you that. That this town was nothing until Lumen came along. Literally. Now look at it. You know. And it's like. Well. Okay. Now you have a bunch of ether addicts. Yeah. You know. Doing what? I don't know. I mean. They're. They're barely breathing. And. And. I mean. They're getting good coffee. I guess. But. But. So it's just. It's kind of a fascinating thing. Right. So it's like. It. You see. The impact. Like. We're so focused on. The world that Lumen has.

[00:55:36] Or the. What we've seen in the inies and outies. And select. A handful of people. But then to find out. It's like. This is sort of their legacy as well. Right. And. And this feels. This is like. And it can be. This could be both a critique on religion. And. And corporate. Corporations. Right. I mean. It has. You see this all the time. Yeah. That are sort of like. Built on. Yeah. You know. Company town. They're a logging town. They're a steel town. They're. You know. Or. You know. But. But then what happens when.

[00:56:05] That thing that you make. Is no longer relevant. Didn't Ford try to build. A. An idealistic community. In South America. Somewhere. To harvest rubber plantations. And that like. Went all horribly wrong. I don't know if it was Ford. Or. Somebody of that early. Time period. There's Willy Wonka. That's a modern allegory. All right. Let's. Let's jump ahead here. Can I. Can I just. Some of the best lines. Yeah. You're higher than a bearded vulture.

[00:56:35] And bearded vultures are some of the highest flying birds. Uh huh. And then. She says. He says. Get your harpy hands off me. She says. You'll. You've no salutation here. You blighted. Snuff slave. You smell like. Crow skin. Uh. And. Uh. I think those are the funniest lines of their. The. Sissy and. And. Just. Yeah. They love. Cobell. What was Cobell's line? The. Not only with the. The chums. It's the way she says.

[00:57:04] It was to be chums. It's just so wonderful. Chums. And then. I will know. I will not be a punching dummy for your. Was it your resentments or something? Yeah. A punching dummy for your resentments. Yeah. Punching dummy. Yeah. Once in her. Once in her mother's room. She affixes an oxygen hose. Crawls into bed and weeps. Hampton comes to get her. They get high and laugh together. After a kiss. They hear sissy yelling. I didn't notice this.

[00:57:34] First off. But. Um. My wife did. She kept the hose in her pocket. That hose was not in the room. And. Sarah said. Yeah. She had that hose. At. In her apartment. Next to the shrine. Right. And it had kind of like a hospital. Tag on it. Mm hmm. Suggesting that maybe. At some point. Her mother was in the hospital. Or. You know. Being treated by.

[00:58:03] An actual doctor. Um. But she brought the hose with her. I guess she kind of fantasized. Like this is what it will look like for me to get closure. I'm going to bring the hose. I'm going to kind of. Um. Take this.

[00:58:23] I'm going to bring the hose. self-indulgent. That this episode got. Um. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was.

[00:58:52] It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. And what she said was. Okay. You know. In. In many. Many. Many cultures. There's a certain grieving sound. That are. That is reserved specifically for women. Mm. And. When the women make this sound. It has kind of a spiritual meaning.

[00:59:22] For the community. Mm. And. And. Stiller. Said. To me. It sounded like a whale's cry. And so. If you listen carefully. Her moaning. Is overlaid with. An actual whale. A song. Oh. Wow. At the end. Yeah. That was fantastic. Okay. I need a third watch of the episode. This is when we get the. The. Last huff that she had. When it was when she was eight years old.

[00:59:51] Right. Mm. Is that. I mean. Is that the most depressing. Line of the entire episode. Yeah. It's pretty rough. It was. Yeah. I was like thinking of like Drew Barrymore. Drew Barrymore. Oh. Yeah. Because she was a child actor. Yeah. Starting. Starting drugs so young. You know. Gotcha. Gotcha. Interesting.

[01:00:21] Because. You know. Patricia Arquette. Was something of a child actor. Wow. Right. And so has Ben Stiller. That's right. That's right. Anything more on the. This. This grieving episode. And. The conversation with Hampton. When he comes back in. And. They kind of share a moment. You know. There's a lot of hostility early on. But. They're in the dark. They're getting high together. You almost kind of.

[01:00:50] Can imagine them. As preteens. In that moment. Yeah. Yeah. And. And I think it's. Again. We talk about the language. We talk about. The word choices. And we talk about like how. There's. There's a particular. Way. That. It appears that like. Like the most zealous. Of the. Of. The. Here followers. Speak. And how like. Milchick's. Language is. Is called to task. And it's like. Just the word choice. And Rickon of course.

[01:01:20] But. And I like how. Hampton's just. You want to get high. That was like the first time. I felt like. Okay. This might be our world. Harmony runs to the storm cellar. Goes through old boxes. Journals. Yearbooks. And finds a notebook. In the head of a bust. Her bust. In a. That was her head. It was her. Oh. That's supposed to be her face. Mm-hmm. Oh. Just like Mark has that little holographic one. She had the. Oh. That's fantastic.

[01:01:51] Then she argues with Sissy. Who tries and fails. To burn the notebook. Harmony learns that her mother committed suicide. And that. Sissy has the soul of a fetid Muppet. Harmony. Drives away. Leaving Hampton behind. To deal with the oncoming headlights. She speaks with Devin. Then Mark saying. Tell me. Was the fetid Muppet line dropped in this episode? No. I just. I was. You added that.

[01:02:21] I was like. Did I miss that? I'll be honest here. When I. And I said. When I first wrote this. I wrote. Sissy is a crazy bitch. And I thought. You can't say that. Can't say that. So I thought. I'll say it has the soul of a fetid Muppet. Well. Well played sir. Yeah. Well played. Anyway. You know. Those are. You know. Sometimes you have to listen to your better. Better angels. All right. So.

[01:02:50] Because we strive to talk like. Normal people on this podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Or some. Some of the time. This is the big reveal. I think. That. Not only does. Cobell. Have the concept for. Severance. Like she's. Written detailed notes. On. The entire process. It's not just the base code. It's circuit blueprint. It's.

[01:03:20] OTC. It's Glasgow. She's got the whole thing. In this notebook. And. So. There's someone else on the landscape. Besides. Rugabi. Who. Is an expert on this. Not just an expert. The inventor. I love the way that Cobell says. Rugabi. Like she's like. That. That charlatan. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:03:48] I don't know how I feel. About. Cobell. Being revealed. As the. As the wizard. In some way. I mean it's a. I get the story. Right. She had this idea. And the Egan stole it from her. And you know. And be silenced. It certainly. Ties back into her. What we've seen of her through season one. And through season two.

[01:04:16] Her intensity on how the severance technology is at playing out. Especially with Gemma. Yeah. And Mark. Mark S. And. And her. You know management of the severed floor. So like how widespread is this severed technology. I wonder if. Helena. Knows. I don't think anybody knows. Obviously nobody in the Egan family knows. Maybe except for James Egan. Knows that.

[01:04:45] This came from her. Because why would you let her go. If she is the inventor of it. You don't want her running loose in the world. Yeah. And no one. Clearly no one. No one at Cure. Knows that there is a notebook in the world. That can prove otherwise. Right. Otherwise. They would have looked for it. They would have found it. And in this. Like. Yeah. You're right. Cobell is probably the only one. Who really knows this information of this. Well.

[01:05:14] I'm going to jump in here real quick. Just to. This is not meant to. To. To cause you harm. David. And I just want to get out in front of this. Before we get feedback. It is Jane Egan bust. That. Jane. Thank you. Steve. For saving me. It is. And it is. It is the bust of his head. Not harmonies. And I said it was such confidence. And belief. In my own opinion. Yes. That I was completely setting myself up.

[01:05:44] In today's world. That's all that matters. As long as you're confident. In your lie. Right. It really doesn't matter. It's true. You're very true. Steve. I owe you. I owe you a life debt. Yeah. And I think it is important that she pulls it out of Jane. Jane. Apostrophe S. Head. So. All right. So she is a mad scientist. And we actually. You know. Mad in multiple ways. We met a mad scientist in the previous episode.

[01:06:13] Who is sort of sadistic. And an abuser. And so this is a world with. Yeah. Mad scientists for sure. And now we have this information about Cobell. She's not only a child prodigy. She's not only like a soldier. For the company. She's in some ways a mad scientist. Which helps explain.

[01:06:41] Why she's so invested. In Cold Harbor. Whatever that is. Right. It's not just that she's trying to please the company. It's that she's trying to see her idea. Finally come to fruition. And maybe. It's taken a lifetime. Work. To get to this point. And so for the company to cut her off. Right before it's realized. Right. It just. It helps me with her motivation. So much. Why she wants to stay managing MDR.

[01:07:11] She's been watching. She keeps on trying to challenge it. And make sure that her technology works. Yeah. You know. And so that all makes sense. And. There's. It's interesting too. And I think it's really cool. That they brought up so much about. Ether. And. And it's history. Oh did you have anything to add to the ether? No. You actually covered all. Okay. You covered all the stuff I was going to talk about. And then some. The. The. I appreciate your validation for my. My efforts.

[01:07:41] Please. Try to enjoy the validations. All the same. The. Because severance sort of behaves. Like an ether. Right. I mean. That's kind of what you've got. Right. Like. This idea that you can. You know. Like. Because when you brought up the. The whole dentistry thing. And we. You know. You know. You can. You don't have to endure that pain. You can kind of be numb to things you don't necessarily. So it's almost like. You know. You don't want to do the mundane things. Like. You know. Like. If you're. If you're just. Having to do all these. Notes.

[01:08:12] Thank you notes. You know. Might not have a little ether. It's like. Get through it. You know. It's memory numbing. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really interesting. How that. How severance is. Kind of. Ready to be released. Almost. In a sort of like. Opioid. Pharmaceutical. Type way. Right. Where it's like. Instead of just being. Something reserved for. Special occasions. Yeah. Or like. Like absolute necessity. Now. It's almost like. Recreational severance. Is like. Kind of where this is headed. Right. One of the things that my daughter said.

[01:08:41] When we were watching this. Shout out to Nessa. She said that. That's probably why. Cobill wanted to invent. Severance at the first place. She was working 10 hours. At a vat. And she hated her life. And she was thinking. Is there a way for me to escape? And so maybe. That's. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe this is a way. Maybe this is a way out. Right.

[01:09:11] So here she's coming up with. She's coming up with this. A solution to a problem that Lumen. Created. I like this. So that Lumen can now have. A new. Solution to everybody's problems. Right. So it's. But I'm going to. Pretty fast. Take it a step further. So she might have invented it for. For that sort of work life balance. Thought. Oh and somewhere in the. In this episode. There's a piece of paper somewhere. That says something about work life balance. I know I saw it somewhere.

[01:09:40] I didn't think it's a screenshot. But anyway. Going back. On. Milchick's. License plate. We see the. That Latin phrase. Remedium. Hominibus. Mm hmm. Which translates to a cure. For mankind. Mm hmm. So I would take. Her theory. And then take it a step further. That when the Egan's got a hold of it. Then they folded it into their.

[01:10:10] Religious. Philosophy. Oh yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So now they're using it for their purposes. Which is not what. Harmony originally. Invented it for. For her purposes. Yeah. I think. It might be a good time to just mention this. You know. Put my religious scholars. Hat on very often. But. You know. With American. You don't wear a pulpit. Religion. I do. Often wear hats. But it doesn't usually say religious scholar. On them.

[01:10:39] I want to give you a. A tactical vest. A specialist. Anthony has a hat that says. Youth apprentice matron. Right. I think. You know. I think with American religion. It's. It's pretty well. I mean. You could look at corporations. That. Tend toward the religious. You know. They. You know. Sort of the highest aspiration.

[01:11:08] Of some of these corporations. Is to be a little bit cult like. Hmm. And. From the other side. You could say that. A lot of. American religion. Has become corporatized. Yeah. And. And become. You know. Sort of. Big business. Big business. And. Or structured. You know. From. Sort of like. A CEO. On down. Kind of. Um. The modern. The CEO model. Church. Mm-hmm. So. I mean. This.

[01:11:38] This show could easily be a commentary on one or the other or both. But. To show. Lumen. In this light that it's a both and. Like. There. There really is no dividing line in between. It is capitalism. And it is religious oppression. And. Those things do not work well together. Or. From another perspective. They work really. So. That's what I was going to say. Yeah. Like. Whereas capitalism. As the. As the religious structure. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:12:08] And. And sort of the. The. The word. That you could. I mean. You could. You could. Take this to. Further. Like. The concept of American exceptionalism. And how those two elements are. Very much. Embedded into that. Right. Where it's like. It's. It. It almost feels righteous. To be. This capitalistic. Right. So you have a great idea. That's going to make you a lot of money. And of course. What you're going to do. Is you're going to. Put religious language. Around it. You're going to couch it. Religion. Mm-hmm.

[01:12:38] To make it serve your own. Your own. Right. And. And you're doing so much good in the process. And to justify it in your own mind. Like. Oh. This is serving our greater purpose. To live for. For cure. Et cetera. Et cetera. What did you say Steve? I missed the. Oh. I was interrupting him. You know. He had nothing important that he was saying. Where. You know. And you can justify it too. By saying you're doing so much good in the process. Look at the jobs I'm creating. Look at the. The. The. You know. This. This product is.

[01:13:08] Is. Is helping people's lives. And. Well-being. And so. It's like. It just becomes. You can justify all of that by saying. Well look. Look how. You know. You know. If you felt the hand of God. Then God was there. Three things. Important. David. You mentioned. Like. There is a work life balance poster. In her. In her room. Oh good. I wasn't. I wasn't. Into my ether. My stupor. No. Near. Near. A cut out of the. The news article. Saying Jane Egan assumes role as Lumen CEO. And then there is a card.

[01:13:37] That reads. You must be cut to heal. Yes. That's right. Yeah. I remember that too. Huh. Going back to your doing good in the world. Really quick Steve. The. When they were. Are walking through one of the hallways. I think when they're on their way to the perpetuity wing. There's all those. Smiling people. You know. There's all those smiling teeth. You know. People who are smiling. Yeah. Right. With their teeth. That. I think that perfectly aligns with your. Your thought that. Oh.

[01:14:07] But see. We're doing good in the world. Right. We're. We're improving people's lot in life. Through our. Through whatever our. Whatever we decide is the best way to do that. Oh. I working for again. A not to be named. Corporation. And I think. We talked about this before. We're like. You'd actually get like. Tokens. With like. The quotes from the founder. On it. And sometimes be like a picture of. Of like. Of that. Of him. And.

[01:14:36] And when they would have their annual meetings. You would have like. The. They would bring patients up. That would give their testimonies. And it was so. Like. I mean. Like. I don't doubt. That these people went through. You know. A great deal of. Of healing. Through whatever. The. The. The process. That you know. These are all like. Good medical. Devices. But the way that the. The language is being used. And so. I think about this. Every time I watch the show. And like. Just thinking of things like. The founder. And. And you know. It started in these humble.

[01:15:05] Humble garage. And they were trying to make a better this. And then. And then they did. And now look at. They have global reach. And. And it's like. It's all because of the vision of this one man. It's like. Well yeah. Kinda. You know. I mean. It's not like. But the thing is. Is that all that is done. Is now attributed to. His vision. And it's like. Well. This vision. Never went much further. Than probably what he was. Yeah. And it's never framed as. You know.

[01:15:35] There's a guy in a garage. Who always wanted to be rich. And now he is. Isn't it great? Yeah. No. And so. And so. It was. It's really fascinating. Like. To get trotted out. And you know. Like. He's gonna. He's gonna come to our plant. And everyone. And I'm just like. Is he gonna give me money? Well. And that goes into the whole. Modern. Bay Area culture. Founder culture. Oh. You're a founder. You know. Like. That's.

[01:16:05] That's something. I mean. All the way to the point of. What was the. What was the blood testing company. Right. Where like. Even to that degree of. Of egotism. That we're gonna. We're gonna really. Make a difference in people's lives. Because I'm a visionary. Right. Yeah. I would've been way cooler. If the founder of the company. I worked at. Would just like. Come up and introduce himself. And then say. You wanna get high? One more thing about. Sissy. And maybe this is what really. Got me. Is.

[01:16:35] When. She reveals that. Cobell's mother. Committed suicide. She called her a coward. Mm. Mm. Kind of reinforcing this. Old and long standing. View of suicide. Um. You know. Not really understanding. Mental health. At all. Uh. You're really damaging. Really damaging view. Of suicide. You know. It's sort of the coward's way out. Mm-hmm. You know. In some religious traditions.

[01:17:05] You know. It's a. You know. Take it to hell. So. Right. The fact that she. Just the. Just the fact that she presented it. In that way. You know. She took her own life. Therefore. She is a coward. To a person who was. Just now. Trying to get closure. With her mother's death. I. Just. Horrible. Horrible stuff. And. It's abuse on the way out. Right. Like. I mean. It's like. It's. It's just. It's.

[01:17:34] It's showing that you don't outgrow it. Right. Let's take a break. And then we'll do some listener feedback. All right. So. I. I want to thank the folks who. Emailed in. Um.

[01:18:04] Just call them out. I'm not going to read all of these. Uh. But I will reply to you. For sure. Film burning. Uh. Kiara. Zero ducks. Catherine W. Marilyn. Erica A. From Sweden. Thank you for writing in. I'm not going to be able to read all of these. But I will read a little bit. Uh. This is from film burning. Hey there. Lorehounds. Do you think cold Harbor. Is the severance implant.

[01:18:35] That kicks in just before death. Enabling a sort of standby mode. For consciousness. Implementation. So. I guess. That's really intriguing to me. It would be a way. To achieve eternal life. In the same way that like. You know. Ted Williams's head is on ice right now. Or something. Uh. The coldest harbor. Yeah.

[01:19:05] Right. There's something like that. That's at work here. That maybe is a way to. Achieve eternal life. In that. The chip will allow you to. Basically pause. Your consciousness. At the moment of death. To hopefully. You know. Use the chip somewhere else. Shameless plug. For. The. Supply closet episode. We had. The other day. With Nicole. And Marilyn. And Nicole.

[01:19:34] talks about. How. There was a. Uh. Somebody was in one of these. Functional. F. M. R. I. Machines. Right. Which can. Measure blood flow in the brain. While you're thinking and reacting. And things. And. A dude died. In one. And they were actually able to record. His brain. At the time of death. And. I think this is really. Life gives you lemons. If life gives you lemons.

[01:20:06] Oh. Bless you Steve. So. Yeah. Anyway. Shameless plug for that. I'm going to. You know. Capitalize off that dude's death. Uh huh. But yeah. I think it's an. It's an intriguing. Intriguing idea. Will. You know. Will. What will happen to. Um. To Gemma when she goes into that room. What is that room hold in store for her? Right. Because he says. What is it? What does Mauer say?

[01:20:35] That you will see the world. And the world will see you. Yeah. Yeah. Film burning pointed that out. Uh. There's a lot of language. In that Gemma episode. So. Kind of. Help with this theory. What do you think about this Steve? Yeah. It does. It does feel like. It's. It's wrapped in death. Right. I mean. It does. It feels like. It's an ultimate end. Um. And when they meant. But what was the mention. It was. You will. You will.

[01:21:05] Like. You will. You will no longer feel pain. Or you'll be free of. Of all this pain. And so the idea. But yeah. So that. I'm curious to see if that. The idea of eternal life. And we keep thinking of. You know. The cloning concept. We look at the. Uh. Here as a baby. Like. Is his. Is he. Is he able to be chipped? Is that kind of the goal? Like maybe he's on ice. And. Maybe the hope is that they can chip. What's. What's remaining of him. If he's. If he's not already cloned.

[01:21:35] To. To create. To. To bring back his consciousness. Hmm. I want to. Um. Bring back the Tolstoy. Of it all. Last episode. We got. Two Tolstoy. Call outs. Yeah. And. I ended up writing two. Blog posts. About it. You can. Catch them on the. The lorehounds.com blogs. Blog page. One of them was. About the Hajimurat story. And. Um. And how that. Is a. There's a. In that story. There's a.

[01:22:04] A thing called the tartar thistle. It's a thistle. Right. And how that is a. Um. Symbol for. Gemma's character. That ultimately gets cut down. But then regrows again. So there's sort of that birth. Death. Life stuff going on there. And then. There's this whole thing. Where we have this. Chakai Bardot thing. Which is. This moment of death. But death is. In stages. And as part of a reincarnation. Machinery. Or machinery. Or whatever process.

[01:22:35] And something that a spiritual. Practitioner can do. Is they can guide themselves. Through the different Bardos. And then. Get themselves a better. Uh. Ticket. In the next life. Interesting. Can stay. Uh. Lucid. During the. These different Bardot states. And we see Mark. In a Bardot state. That is. Um. And. And. He says he's journeying. Right? So he's going through these motions. And then he comes out. Yeah. And the question is. Is he reintegrated or not? Did he have a rebirth moment?

[01:23:04] And then. Gemma is in also. This liminal state. And she's practicing yoga. And she's stimulating her mind. While she's going through all these psychological tests. But her. Uh. Rebirth. Is thwarted by lemon. Or by lumon. Right? And she's trapped. And so there's this whole question of. Of this technologically induced. Death life cycle. And Mark has agency within that. And Gemma does not. But then.

[01:23:33] The Tolstoy of it is. Uh. The. What is it? The clear light. Or the blinding light moment. Where he is. Uh. Ivan Illich. Is on. In a liminal state. Right? On his dying deathbed. And then he has a clear moment. A moment of clarity. Where he's like. Boy. My whole life was a complete farce. I can let all that go. There is no death. And I can move forward. Um. And so. I think that there's something. Wrapped up. There is.

[01:24:04] Death. On the menu here. So to speak. Yeah. You know. We also see. I mean. This episode is. Is that. Uh. You know. Sort of. Amplified. Right? I mean. Uh. Harmony is making her way. To her. Her. Mother's home. She gets into her. Her. The room she died. And she lays on her bed. She takes. She takes on the tube. She actually takes on. Mm-hmm. The posture. Yeah. Uh.

[01:24:33] Of death. And she stays there. And she mourns. And she wails. And. And she literally sleeps. And the entire day. We see an entire day go by. Goes by. And then she wakes up. With a childhood chum. She. Engages. In. In. In an act that she hasn't done. Since she was eight years old. Uh. The language has kind of changed. Her. She. She engages in a kiss with. It's. It. Because it felt like you said. The foe.

[01:25:03] Felt like they're just preteens again. It's like. Yeah. I think so. I think she. She was reborn. In that regard. And so now. She has a different focus. On whatever. I mean. She definitely was going to get these. Plans. Is what. What it. Suggests. But now she's clear headed. She's able to go. And get. She. She. Figures out where this thing is probably kept. She has it. And you know. Then we start seeing fire imagery. Of course. We get the fire woman song. She's. Picks up the phone. With. She had been ignoring this whole time. Uh. She's headed in a different direction. Mm-hmm.

[01:25:33] Nice. This is from Kiara. And thank you for the phonetic help with your name. Hello. I'm listening from East London. Okay. There's a lot of discussion about people opting to be severed during things that maybe don't. They don't enjoy or want to endure such as Dennis or flying or giving birth. My question is when Heli wakes up on the table series premiere. Mark needs to explain the whole severance thing to her and she freaks out.

[01:26:02] Doesn't want to be severed. So let's say the first time you exist slash wake up is in the middle of childbirth. Wouldn't you be like what the fuck is happening? I mean. So Kiara goes on. But I honestly like. Maybe we haven't given enough thought to this birthing center. If you have to. Let's say you're sitting there. And your first conscious thought is I'm watching a video of myself.

[01:26:32] Explain to me that I'm about to go through childbirth. Right. This is. This is dark. Well, you. Well, now you kind of wonder too. Now we know Glasgow. We know over time contingency. Now I wonder about some of these other. Yeah. Switches that are flipped. Right. Like maybe. Maybe they. They. Make it so you're much more docile. Maybe there is something that can be. It can be done. Right. I mean. We barely scratched the surface on what some of these things are.

[01:27:03] So again, we know that you can just be transported to wherever woes hollow is and be changed and dressed up and everything. And like, what the hell, you know? So who knows? What? What are you unconscious? Or is there a different version of yourself that that gets you to that point? I don't know. I mean, Miss Gemma is certainly a docile character. Oh, yeah. They've rendered her very passive. Right. Yeah. That's a good way to put it. Anyway. Thanks to everyone who sent in questions.

[01:27:32] And of course, when John is back, I'm sure that we will have much more room and space for a lot back. We just need to say more dumb shit. Yeah. David, tell us what's going on with the Lorehounds this week. Lorehounds this week. Boy, I didn't prep that. We are about to drop on Wheel of Time coverage. John and Alicia are hard at work at that. Otherwise, we have this.

[01:28:02] Alicia also just wrapped up a huge effort on her Oscars season. And so that was a lot of fun. Otherwise, we are prepping not only for Wheel of Time. Fortunately, they're going to be able to get ahead and get podcasts early because Amazon was generous. We are also prepping for The Last of Us and for and or season two.

[01:28:27] And then we're going to throw in some White Lotus coverage in between there as well. As well as all of our subscriber exclusive stuff like Eleven Z's, our movie podcast and Second Breakfast and kind of stuff. But I think that's enough. So over at Properly Howard, Steve and I recorded a podcast that predicts the outcome for all of the major Severance characters.

[01:28:55] So people can go to Properly Howard and listen to Steve and I repeatedly be wrong. I'm trying to find out. At least we're not already wrong. I think we were worried that we would watch the episode last night and be like, well, there goes that. The other thing I should mention is that Steve and I will be going through Night of the Seven Kingdoms together on my podcast Electric Bukaloo.

[01:29:24] And we'll be spending a couple months just taking portions of George R.R. Martin's novellas beginning with The Hedge. But if you want to grab that book, Night of the Seven Kingdoms and read along with us, that begins next week. And we still don't have a date, I don't think, but we're expecting summer this year for Night of the Seven Kingdoms on HBO Max. Maybe later than summer. Oh, interesting.

[01:29:51] Not sure when, but I am jumping into the books now. All right. Do you want to cover some needle dropping before we go? Oh, sorry about that. Yeah, needle drops. This is one of my favorite parts. Steve, do you want to take it this week? Well, no, I mean, we had the two. I have three listings. Yeah, there was two in the beginning, right? Yeah. Well, that were Salt's Neck specific.

[01:30:23] Who Knows by Marion Black, 2004. Great Jam, by the way. Where Do We Go From Here by Charles Bradley. Charles Bradley, yeah, from the album Victim of Love. So that kind of was a nice. Oh, nice. Victim of Love, I like that. Yeah, a little something going on there. But I really wanted to talk about Fire Woman. First off, great song. I love that it's a band by the band The Cult. It feels like such an on-the-nose song for that moment.

[01:30:52] But it's like, why not? And it does, the way that it ramps up and it really hits its, you know, the sound elevates, you know, it gets more of a crescendo when after she says, tell me everything. Mm-hmm. So she kind of wrestles that.

[01:31:18] I think it's safe to say we can take from it that she's going to burn something down. Right? I mean, something's getting burned down. The lighting in the whole back half after she wakes up all has oranges and reds in it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's definitely this sort of rebirth Phoenix kind of. And I went ahead and I watched the video for this song. And it's really interesting. The lead singer, like, it kind of looks like it's a concert, right?

[01:31:48] But I mean, it's like it's all stylistically done. And but every time he's like, all of a sudden he'll just be happy. He'll have a hat on and then he won't have a hat on. Then he'll look different and he won't look different. And I just thought that was really kind of an interesting touch, given what we've seen with the last episode where, you know, we see Gemma keep on switching her looks for each room. And people have a tendency to like, there's a lot of imagery where people aren't maybe what they seem and then they're, they're changing. And I don't know,

[01:32:16] probably not to that level that they were when they pick the song, the song, it has enough that makes sense for this particular episode. But the video was kind of, it evokes some imagery for me. So. Have you looked up what the meaning of the name Wong means? No. In one particular, I can't remember which one it is, but in one particular language, it does mean Phoenix. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Huh. That's interesting. And then the third needle drop, David.

[01:32:45] That was it. I had a, who knows by Marion black. Where do we go from here? Charles Bradley and then fire woman by the cult. Okay. I don't know if Steve picked up anymore. No, it was that. And then just the rest is like the cure him throughout, which I just absolutely love. Oh, and whale song by whale. Right. One of my favorite. All right. Thanks y'all until next time.

[01:33:19] Most of what we just said represents everyone. We know everyone we work for. Except for John. Who is a coward. Is it the Frank or the beans? This podcast is a joint production of the lore hounds and properly Howard. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. The Frank or the beans. The wheel of time turns and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend.

[01:33:49] In one podcast called the lore hounds by some, a weekly recap with tons of analysis, two wheel of time. Super fans will lead you through a world of powerful magic, tricky prophecies, and cutthroat politics. Join me, John and my co-host Alicia for weekly coverage of season three by searching your podcast app for the lore hounds. Dovyeandi setovas again. It's time to roll the dice. You can do anything else. I was 48 year old after the lore. And share a lot. Don't give me a poem to the lore tonight. Here in a minute, you have to make SVP Rays and the game show He will have 2 million after compelling people inflammatory Nicole is przyp prices unusual because there's no question about laughschemists. Thank you.