Severance - S02E10 - Cold Harbor

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[00:00:30] Wherever you get your podcasts. Don't pervert a handbook passage to me, okay? Welcome to a Lorehounds and Properly Howard joint production covering Severance on Apple TV Plus season two episode 10 Cold Harbor. With me today he doesn't need to be severed to argue with himself. Anthony.

[00:00:59] Yeah, when I look in the mirror I call myself an indecorous. I call myself deeply fucking indecorous. Yes. He's working on a Teen Wolf themed animatronic routine, Steve. That is very true, but we are currently at odds. And he's currently moving to the nation of the equator, but will join us shortly. It's David.

[00:01:27] And that's silence because he's joining us late. So we're here for this last episode. I'll give David's quick housekeeping. End of the season, but you can still get the season pass if you want to spend five bucks to get the ad free episodes. And a lot of bonus episodes to the supply closet. And you can always go to our discord or send us an email at severance at the lorehounds.com to get in on the feedback.

[00:01:52] Not sure how much feedback we're going to be able to get to at this point because we are wrapping up the season, but you can always join us anyway. Steve and Anthony, you are going to be doing a wrap up over on the properly Howard feed. Is that right? That is correct. Correct. And you can search for that anywhere you search for podcast properly Howard.

[00:02:15] And I should just mention, I was just talking with David earlier. He was just expressing how disappointed he was with this episode. He thought that the camera work was really shoddy in it. He's changed his opinions about the entire season. I think, uh, didn't like any of the lighting, uh, especially he hated the Ren Brandt lighting and, uh, he didn't think it works thematically at all. Oh, hi, David. We, uh, we, we, we said you were moving to the equator and that's why. You were late.

[00:02:45] Faculence. They, they did have a distinct style this episode and I don't know how I feel about it. I did get some extra information on the color of this episode. For my daughter. Uh, so when we get to the, uh, the flashing red lights, I'll have to give you Nessa's perspective on that. Yeah. Very cool. Uh, there was, are we doing hot takes yet? Are we?

[00:03:15] Yeah. Let's, let's go right into it. Okay. Well, you were late, so now you can go first. Oh, it pays to be late. I am not sure how I feel about this episode. Because I think it was long on feels and short on not even wrapping up the big mysteries, just wrapping up the season. And there was just a lot of stuff. It just felt to me like there was a lot of stuff left on the floor.

[00:03:43] And I know last week I was like, Oh, it'll be fine. It'll be great. And we'll all be happy. And it'll have been a wonderful season. And I see a lot of people online that they're, they're, there's kind of either, uh, you know, folks are a little bit meh or other people really, really enjoyed it. And I don't know, there's some small things like reintegration wasn't much of a factor. Um, some of the mysteries that were given to us, we had already solved prior.

[00:04:12] I mean, a lot of people had like that MDR are the, the numbers in MDR, the tempers that relate to the person. Okay. Well, yeah, that's not a big reveal. Pretty much figured that Mark and Gemma were going to get back together. And so it didn't feel like it had that much verve to it. Um, I'm not sure what choreography and merriment brought to the episode. Besides, it's always great to see a. Oh, I thought that was wonderful. Yes, I did too. I thought that was amazing.

[00:04:40] Next, you're going to tell me, I didn't really need the music dance experience. I, well, I needed, I need Tramiel Tillman in my house dancing like that for me every night because that man has moves. He is a national treasure. I absolutely love. Has anyone ascended faster than that guy? Like, I feel like he could do anything. I feel like he could be our next action hero. I feel like he, I mean, he's been on Broadway. I really think he needs to be in everything from now on. Absolutely.

[00:05:10] Absolutely. He's really fantastic. When he started doing his like hip dance, my wife goes, the thirst traps that are going to show up on TikTok tomorrow. I want to see the YouTube of all of his moves smooshed into one continuous shot. Absolutely what I want. So on the show side, I was like, I'm left a little bit questioning. I'm not really sure what was resolved.

[00:05:34] There was a very taken from 70 cinema ending that this was. This was a very much a graduate style ending. And I have a different take on that. I was hoping you would. I think we have three different takes on this. Excellent. But on the big thoughts, there's some really interesting stuff. The moral and ethical dilemmas of inies and outies. The severance technology and where does personality live?

[00:06:04] Where does love live? Where does creativity live? Because we have these three primary pairings of Mark and Heli. We have Irv and Bert and we have Dylan and I forget his name. Gretchen. Gretchen, thank you. And they all are having these different kinds of, it's like this really interesting exploration of where is love if you're severed? Where is with Irv? Where is creativity?

[00:06:32] Like that seems like might have burned through. Then there's this whole question of Keir's war against pain. And I think Keir and the Eagans are the interesting kind of bad guys who have a point of view and are trying to do something. But what they're doing ends up having all of these really bad consequences. So, you know, Thanos was trying to make things better in the world by eliminating half the population.

[00:07:02] He had a point of view as a bad guy. That's an interesting bad guy. So, I think the Eagans are trying to do something that is going to benefit humanity, but they're going about it in this, you know, very bad guy like way. Because ultimately, I think this big question of what was Cold Harbor, it was an efficacy test. Put Gemma under the maximum amount of emotional load to see if the severance barrier would hold.

[00:07:31] For what purpose, we don't know. But I think all of that is really interesting. And it came to somewhat of a culmination in this episode. But at the same time, I'm feeling a little confused and I'm not really sure what I saw last night. So, I'm hoping our podcast fellowship can illuminate a little bit for me. David, it was a fucking masterpiece. Turn your mic off. Go home. Go home. Go home.

[00:07:57] Why don't you rally the internet, have them leave some more reviews on Apple Podcasts. And, you know, what was funny is I finished my season one rewatch of The Last of Us the other day. And I still think Joel is a monster. That's fine. You can come for me during Last of Us. Let's have a droll V. Drummond. I do think there's something to your point.

[00:08:24] Like, after we were finished watching, Sarah said, I have more questions than I have answers. And I almost thought, well, of course you do because you need a third season. Right? Yeah. And yet, as far as season finales go, like, please take note, House of the Dragon showrunners. This is how you do it. This is what a season finale ought to be.

[00:08:50] And I think for people who listen to podcasts after they watch shows like our listeners, you probably knew that the numbers were Gemma's tempers all along. Exactly. Or you knew them for at least the last couple years. Well, to be clear, you thought that was the case because it was talked about. That's right. Nobody knew. So revealing something for most. Yeah. And I think that's a really interesting point. Yeah.

[00:09:18] How many viewers don't have the benefit of John's wit and wisdom? And all of our wit and wisdom. But even, like, the fact that you'll rewatch an episode. Like, a lot of people just won't ever rewatch an episode. And that's fine. But, like, I know, Anthony, you're the George R.R. Martin guy. The Martin three-step reveal.

[00:09:40] I think that that has become something that is more of an observation he's made about the way effective writers reveal mysteries. And this show does that. I just want to say, like, this show had the best kind of cliffhanger that I could possibly think of. I always say, don't make me guess what happened. Make me guess what will happen next. What is the impact on all the people? What's going to happen next?

[00:10:08] Just off the top of my head, questions that I now have that aren't like, will they survive? It is, Mark fucking killed someone. Is he going to face charges? Is Lumen going to face charges for kidnapping Gemma? Gemma's on the outside. Is Devin going to be cool with her? What's Cobel going to do next? Is Heli replacing Helena? Are Devin and Cobel going to be allies? Where the hell is Ragabe?

[00:10:32] I just, there's so many questions that are really, like, fodder for an amazing season three. And so, I just, though they didn't answer, like, a lot of factual questions. Like, if you would have told somebody in season one, episode one, that at the end of season two, they're going to reveal what the numbers are, I think people would be pretty satisfied. I think we over-expect the reveals of mysteries because they keep adding more.

[00:11:00] I will interject just quickly, because I know I have a bad habit of interrupting y'all, but I do absolutely acknowledge that I'm my own victim of over-analyzing the show, so that when I hit this finale, even though I said, hey, I'm cool with whatever, I'm still a victim of the fact that we've been breaking the show down all season long, and so I'm not sure where I really feel.

[00:11:27] Like, I really do need somebody to talk me through it. Yeah, and I think that we all do that. Anthony, go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say, like, are you watching for the mystery? Like, if you're here for the mystery box so that you can feel gratified by, I figured it out, yay for me, then you're not going to appreciate a lot of what's going on in this show. Mm-hmm. You know, the question is, what is the problem? Jenna's being held as a slave in a basement. Mm-hmm.

[00:11:55] How are you going to solve it in an interesting way? Mm-hmm. That they did. She's free. Have you complexified these characters in an interesting way? Mm-hmm. Or have you developed themes along the way? And all of those things are, I mean, I don't really come to it for the mystery box. The mystery box is kind of a device that showrunners use to get you to watch the next episode. Right. Yeah. Right.

[00:12:25] But if you're just sitting there, like, watching with, you know, multiple screens, kind of paying attention, most shows, you can watch episode one. You know that they're not going to solve the mystery box until episode nine. Exactly. So you can just sit there and veg out. This is not that kind of show. Right. John, you can sit this comment out because it's going to be a very dated reference.

[00:12:50] But, David, you strike me as somebody who would be sitting there going, wait, they're not going to tell us who shot J.R.? Right. Very frustrating. That was bigger news. I genuinely don't know this one. That made more news than the actual president getting actually shot. J.R. was bigger than Reagan being shot. Yeah, John, there was a show called Dallas, and it was a very popular sort of primetime soap show.

[00:13:20] And it was kind of like, at least at the time, it seemed like it was kind of the master of the cliffhanger. I mean, and I was I was I was of a very young age. But to me, cliffhangers sort of were were born from the show Dallas. And who shot J.R. is probably one of the one of the absolute, you know, like kind of like cultural touchstones. I mean, there were T-shirts of who shot J.R. that we'll be wearing all summer and people talking about who could it possibly be.

[00:13:47] And without having the Internet, you have to actually talk to human beings and sometimes strangers in a supermarket to share theories on who may have shot J.R. There was no Reddit. There was only Safeway. And if you'd like to hear more of this, come over to Properly Howard. We'll be talking about the Simon and Simon Magnum PI crossover episode. I don't don't sleep on Riptide. Riptide was an underrated Simon and Simon ripoff.

[00:14:16] There was even a show that was premise. The whole show was premise on the fact that it was cliffhangers every episode. Like that was the hook. I have to Google for that now. It was like, now, if I could transition. Yeah, if I could transition us out of old man talk for the millennials and Gen Z's out there. So which, by the way, the millennials were becoming old people, too. It's fine. It's fine. It'll happen.

[00:14:42] So I just want to say, like, David and Anthony, you both said something about like, oh, well, the show needs a season three. I could end the show here and be satisfied. I so could, too. You and I are simpatico right there. I was like, if they said it was not coming back, I'd be like, yep, that was two perfect seasons. I'm gold. Yeah. Yeah, because you have the end goal of rescuing Gemma, which has been kind of like the end goal since the middle of last season.

[00:15:12] Like, that's done. You got her out. I think it would be really cheap if they were like, and then she got it called in the stairwell. No, let her be free. That would be very bad writing. But, you know, she got out and then the innies found their own agency. Even if it's for a few minutes, they're just running off. It's like the end of Good Will Hunting, you know? He's just driving off. And he might not, but, you know, he's taking a shot. And the innies here are taking a shot.

[00:15:38] And I feel like that, like, hopeful run down the hallway in the middle of the blaring alarms, along with Gemma getting out and being devastated that her partner wasn't, it didn't have control of his body to come out with her. It's such like a tragic. It's almost like Shakespearean or Greek, right? It's almost like a Greek tragedy. Can we talk about the ending? I know that we're supposed to hot take this, but Steve's got some interesting takes on the final scene.

[00:16:07] I've got a few interesting takes. And I really like the graduate homage that I didn't see, but it's totally there. So, for me, I thought, this is totally, you freeze-framed it and then zoomed in. That reminded me of Butch and Sundance. Mm-hmm. And thematically, it's like these two guys, like, you're not going to live much longer.

[00:16:36] But in this moment, they're alive if only frozen in our memory. And that really called me back to Butch and Sundance. But, Steve, you had a different take on this. Yeah. And I'm going to go back to the painstaking conversation that we had, where I just sort of went dead for a while looking up the lyrics for, was it Laval's Miltemps? I'm going to say it all wrong.

[00:17:18] I'm going to say it all wrong. My mind. And so, Carousel showing up again, like, kind of triggered something. I'm like, well, there it is again. I know the whole idea of going round and round. I know most of this has to do with the consciousness, the specific song.

[00:17:49] But when it went grainy, I immediately thought of Logan's Run. Oh, nice. I love you, Steve. You're my podcast. Anthony, I'm taking Steve away from you. Oh, damn it. And so, in Logan's Run, they have, at age 30, they go, the people go to a renewal where they essentially are going to be killed. But they're being told that it's some sort of a renewal experience. And the thing that they go to is called Carousel.

[00:18:17] And they spin around and they kind of go up into the air and then they get zapped and they're being renewed. But they're actually just being disposed of. Logan's Run takes place in... Spoilers. Yeah, right. Well, that happens pretty early on, actually. It's true. Anyway. But Logan's Run, there are sand men and then they're responsible for getting runners who are trying to escape this facility. This facility is like this big... It's kind of like a world, right? It's like a city, essentially. But it's post-apocalyptic. Yeah. And it's all inside.

[00:18:47] And so, they're kind of... Whether they realize it or not, their whole existence is inside what would be like a... Kind of like almost a facility. Like a big building, essentially. And part of this is... Part of Logan's Run and his journey is he gets outside and he sees the outside world for the first time. And then they have... And they're encountering people that are old. And it's just... It's like they're finding out that this whole thing that they're living in was a ruse. So, that...

[00:19:15] It felt to me more of just like... I'm like... Carousel showed up a couple times. At least some references to it. His hair is shockingly like Michael York's. Adam Scott's hair. When this movie... When I looked at it again. And like... Especially the way it's flowing down the hallway. And this resolution, you know, change. And then you've got the... Like I said, the graininess of kind of old 70s type thing. And so, it was just... To me, it just... It brought me right to like Logan's Run. So, I started just doing... Of course, then I did a deep dive into Logan's Run. And I'm like... Well, let's see.

[00:19:44] He's called Logan 5. 5. Looks like an S. It's Mark S. That's the kind of stuff that I got into. So, uh... But yeah. So, I think that there's more... I don't think that it's necessarily a... You know, an overlay shot for shot type thing. But I think there's something being taken from that. At least that... Maybe that film specifically. But I think there's... It feels like there's a reason why we switched to this more... You know, lower res... You know, finish.

[00:20:13] It feels like too much... Too much there to not be something other than just an homage. And they did a couple of things where they did a snap zoom and like into Dylan. And some of the other camera moves were all straight out of 70s cinema. Well, in Logan's Run, there's kind of this cacophonous music that goes on throughout it too. That just doesn't... Choose a simpler words, Steve. Yeah. I'm duly swamped. Where it's... Where it just...

[00:20:43] Sometimes it's disconcerting. And then there's these moments where the marching band is playing as Mark is running down the hallways. And it kind of just brought me back to... Because I did, of course, watch Logan's Run this morning because I was... I'm jealous. ...jazzed on it. But... Do you need a podcast to break it down for you? I was going to say to Anthony, you know, I've been... I've been...

[00:21:04] I'm not bugging him, but every once in a while I'll drop the hint like, oh, I really want to come on to Properly Howard and talk about some obscure 70s movie that we can all nerd out on. No, David, I'm referring to the podcast we recorded on this. On Logan's Run? Yeah, we did it early in... Oh, shit. I made you watch this. You did make me watch this. David, why don't you come on? We'll do Godzilla vs. Bambi. Let's do it. Okay, there you go. I like that. That's good. Can we also do Hardware Wars? Oh, yeah. That's a deep cut.

[00:21:35] Yeah. Porklips now. Long time Lorehounds, Patreon, or Supercast subscribers will know that we did this as an early second breakfast movie. It was very early. I very vaguely remember this. Yeah. And I actually enjoyed it. I enjoyed it quite a bit. Boxy. Protein from the sea. Yeah. I don't know if that's my hot take, but I think it'll be sufficient. There's obviously plenty to talk about. Another hot take is David is Wrong.

[00:22:02] This is an amazing episode of television. To me, it was cinema quality once again. I just finished re-watching it before this podcast. And it's so nice to take a second viewing and kind of dive in and also just sort of let it wash over you at the same time. I try to watch it without looking for too many clues or anything like that and just to enjoy it. Yeah, there's feels and there's this and that.

[00:22:30] And yeah, there are these things where I'm like, I actually kind of was bummed that we do this kind of analysis sometimes because that reveal, the reveal of the tempers thing would have probably hit a little harder. And because we spend so much time looking for every single possible clue and we give up all these theories. And then when they come true, it's like, well, that didn't surprise me. And I would have liked that.

[00:22:58] I don't you know, I think that Anthony's point is kind of well, well taken where it's just like, you know, you know, it's we do this to ourselves. You know, we do absolutely victimized by by our own podcast analysis, because when they spent a significant time on that reveal, when Cobel is telling him what they what their numbers are. And I was like, huh? I was like, so. Okay, well, just so you know, it's not just for a podcast. Steve did call me last night.

[00:23:28] He was a bit inebriated. He did talk about Logan's run almost coherently. And I do remember the phrase, one of the best season finales you've ever seen. Wow. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, no, it was it's a. It was I was nervous. I was nervous to watch this episode because I remember how great the last finale was.

[00:23:56] And I don't want too many things wrapped up. I do. I did want Gemma to get rescued. And I love the fact that she did. And again, more complications ensue. Right. I mean, this is to your point to John. It's like I. Well, if they just said, yeah, that's it. I'd be. I could live in there. I could live. I wouldn't be mad.

[00:24:21] Yeah, I could live in that because this is going to be hard to, quote, wrap up. And I hope that they just don't do that. I hope it is left still, you know, with some ambiguity, with some uncertainty and so that it can just sort of live with you longer than if it just if it, you know. Oh, and then now Lumen is vanquished and everybody's happy. Right. Well, that's what this ending did, though, itself. Right. With a cut scene at the very end.

[00:24:49] Because what the hell are these Ennies going to do? If Lumen wants to end their world, their world is ended. Maybe. So what are they running to? But it doesn't matter, right? In a physical confines of the basement of Lumen. But this is. I just want to say. Yeah. We. We. I'm sorry, David. Now I'm interrupting you, but I'm going to do it. I am interrupted. It's. Aren't we all. Aren't we all interruptible? This is a podcast with four people. Somebody's going to get interrupted.

[00:25:16] But, you know, I think we undervalue the emotional impact of media, of art, and overvalue the logic of it when it comes to mystery boxes. Like this was. Again, like there is no logic to them running off. There's nowhere for them to go. But the emotion of that, if I could just have a few more minutes with you, it's worth it. I just want my heart to beat a little longer with my brain in control. Hmm. I just. That's beautiful, man. Like that's.

[00:25:45] That's beautiful. That is cinema. The whole. The whole point that was brought up to Mark and it like several people had told him, you know, Cobel told him, uh, Mark's. Um, he even said it, his, any version said it that, you know, look, there's no future for, for me and, uh, Helena Egan. Like that's who she is. And it's, it's a fleeting idea. I mean, even Hellig tells him that. Mm-hmm. And yet at the end, I think everybody's saying, look, and even Cobel basically saying, look,

[00:26:15] you're dead anyway. So do this for yourself, even though you don't realize it's the yourself that you, you know, the you, you are, so to speak. Right. Um, so he has this moment, but then he sees her. Like if she doesn't show up, he probably goes out that door. Cause he's like, well, I'm going to die anyway. But he sees her and he's like, well, I'm going to die anyway. You're right. They can turn me off just like that. So let's just, let's just run a bit. Let's just hold hands and go.

[00:26:39] They also left it so interestingly ambiguous because, and this was the genius of that scene with James. James says, you have cure within you. You have the fire of cure within you. And so he's favoring Helly right now. Right. Is Helly going to become the dominant consciousness of this body? And if so, she's not going to let Mark be in prison. So I don't think we're going to get just a straight up flip of the situation where Jim has to save Mark now. And I think that that's so interesting. Like there's so many directions that this could go.

[00:27:09] That could be satisfying. And that's why it's a perfect season finale. It leaves all these factual possibilities open, but it has this emotional truth of, I did my duty. I'm taking my reward of a few more minutes with the person I love. Also, Mike just mentioned a nice little bit of symmetry with episode one of this season. Where running? Yeah. Mark is running through the hallways. To find Gemma. Yep. And he's like, he drops her off. That's right.

[00:27:38] And, you know, he ends running with Helly. So, I mean, it's just that there's your romantic comedy, right? It had the vibe of me dropping my daughter off at school. And I'm like, all right, now walk to class now. I like go through the door and start, keep walking. And now you know that she's gone for a few hours. You run off with your wife. That's right. That's right. I liked how everything goes red, right?

[00:28:02] I mean, this is a blue show for the bulk of the season. Yeah, blues and greens. And then now it's like so red. Even the credit sequences is red, you know, which you could bring that either back to sort of that fire imagery that we had seen with Cobel and the Firewoman song. Or you can follow it with Helly's critique of Jane. You've built hell.

[00:28:32] Essentially, you and your family have built hell. Oh, I like the critique. You are so fucking weird. Yeah, that was so good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Helly is just an icon. Go ahead, David. I was just going to add on to Steve's reference for the visual and the color escape. When the two Marks were talking, any Mark was always in orange-red light, and Audi Mark was always in cold-blue light. Yeah, yeah. Because he was outside and inside. And there's these great shots.

[00:29:02] I even composited a shot of the two faces of Mark in two different colors. But they also introduced Aquamarine in this episode. And with Kier and the whole finishing of the Cold Harbor file, there's a whole bunch of Aquamarine that's going on, which also makes me think about Helly and water and all of that visual imagery. And I have no other thoughts to it. We've spent a half hour on Hot Take. So I'm going to move us on here to the main episode. First, we're going to take a break.

[00:29:32] And before that, I just want to mention, look, this is the last episode we're doing on this feed. David, we discussed before you got here that Steve and Anthony really want to do the wrap-up on Properly Howard. Oh, okay. So Properly Howard is doing a wrap-up on their feed. So make sure you go follow that, again, in the link tree in the show notes. And if you want more Lorehounds podcasts, we're up to almost like 500 episodes. We are going very strong. Wheel of Time is going. Andor is coming.

[00:30:02] The Last of Us is coming. We have a lot going on. We do a lot of bonus podcasts and whatnot. So whether you are listening on the public or you're a subscriber and you want to go and listen to more of our content, please go check us out over there. Got the two feeds you got to check out. Lorehounds and Properly Howard. Now, we will see you after this break.

[00:30:34] And we're back. So I've divided this. I have more sections than usual, but most of them are pretty little. It's just like it's hard to talk about these things together. The first one I had was the argument. So you've got Devin and Cobell giving Marcus a camera. It allows him and his Audi to have a heated argument about their next course of action. Do they save Gemma and possibly kill the Innings? Cobell tells Mark S that tomorrow will be his last day at Lumen no matter what.

[00:31:02] We already talked about the color, but how great was this argument? Like, he's a child. I can't talk to him. You know, I almost like this more than anything else in the show. So what were you going to say, Steve? Sorry. Yeah, no, I mean, I was just following the childlike thing. I mean, it started off so promising, you know, like, oh, he apologized. Oh, that's so cool. And then, like, they're kind of getting to know each other.

[00:31:26] Like, Audi Mark is, like, genuinely like, whoa, I can't believe this is really happening. Like, that is me. That's crazy. And, like, and, you know, he's coming at it from this, you know, grizzled human knowledgeable of many more things. And the other one is just like, I just wanted to be treated nice. And then as it starts to sink in what's going on and what's at stake, and then you don't even know my girlfriend's name, dad, you know, like that kind of thing. And it just causes him to turn, which I think is fascinating.

[00:31:55] Another part of this whole thing with Cobalt, and I'll let you guys go because I want to listen, is I loved how he references Bert's drawing. And then, like, Irving's drawing, that really vexes her. And then they kind of move on with, or, I'm sorry, Irving's drawing. And so, it's like, it was nice to have that, like, Irving's not done. There's the whole bunch of Irving stuff that we don't know the answer to.

[00:32:21] So, in terms of, like, what was solved, we don't know who he was, we still don't know who he was talking to on the phone. Yeah. And how he got to where he got. And so, there's so many more mysteries to unravel in future seasons, you know, assuming there's more than one coming. There's so much richness that, I know, that's why I'm a little taken, that David's like, ah, I just kind of feel like things wrapped up. Like, what? What are you talking about?

[00:32:51] I think I need to watch it again and just turn off my analytical part of my brain, like you were suggesting, and just let it wash over me. Because as much as I tried, I couldn't turn off the, well, what about the goats? And, you know, that kind of question mark. Well, we found out about the goats. But we still don't know. Oh, we know. We know.

[00:33:12] Okay. Well, anyway, I did want to pick up on a point that Steve just put down, which is Irv and the way that Cobell reacted. Because the whole setup, as I'm reading it, is their stress-testing severance technology. They've loaded Gemma with 25 personalities. They're putting her into high-intensity emotional situations.

[00:33:38] And they're looking to see if there's any burn-through of her core personality, I guess you could say. And it culminates with the baby crib, right? Which is this very, very intense. And I have no doubt that they were manipulating her throughout the whole IVF or the whole fertility treatments. That's the word I'm working for. Yeah, thanks. To push them into this.

[00:34:08] And maybe they were looking for the right candidate. These were the ones. And this idea that in Dylan and Gretchen's case, Audi Dylan tells Annie, no wonder you kissed her. You're a dick for doing it, but I totally understand it because she and I are matched. And of course, you would be matched with her.

[00:34:32] So there's this idea that beyond severance, there is some sort of physicality to their love. And does love burn through severance technology? And then with Irv, he's painting the, what is it, the exports hallway? I can't remember what they call it now. Yeah, the exports hall. Yeah. That leads to the testing floor.

[00:34:55] And then he's having bleed-through literal visual hallucinations of black paint, oily black paint, bleeding through while he's in Innie. And he's drawn to art and to O&D. And he falls in love with somebody who works and who has the same interest in the visual. And so does Irv's creativity break the severance barrier? And I was looking for the comment.

[00:35:24] There was somebody in our Discord who was saying something about that before. I think it was Eon. So Eon, if this was you, I hope I'm remembering right. And if not, I apologize. But is there something about creativity that can hop the fence of severance? And then we have Mark and Gemma who are going through all of this very intense emotional stuff. And that's what Cobell says. He doesn't remember her. Or she's very intent on watching their interaction.

[00:35:54] Well, what are her words, though? The barriers are holding. And we hear that again this episode. We keep hearing the barriers are holding. Right. And the test is an efficacy test. Right. I believe Maurer says that. He says, you know, I forget. Somebody says efficacy test. The voiceover says the efficacy test is ready or about to begin.

[00:36:17] So I think to me, what the show is doing and this episode is doing is that's one of the big questions that is interesting. And they are telling in a super interesting way. And through these different couples and these different pairings and then these different where does love live and can love transcend? Where does creativity live? Can creativity transcend? And under what conditions? And I think that is fascinating.

[00:36:43] And so the whole idea that Cobell is like, wait, what? Irv knows where this thing is and he was drawing it and it was outside of the severance thing. That to me is a really interesting seed, you know, germ of a seed for a future season. Right. Yeah. And I think that nothing again, nothing is unintentional. And that correct. That didn't have you don't have to have that at all. Right.

[00:37:08] And they've been they made the choice and they made the choice to have the reaction that she had because she has a vested interest in how successful some of the stuff is because this is kind of her baby. It's absolutely her technology. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just absolutely tragic that these people are just like they're trying to just remove emotion, I feel like, from humanity. I think that that is the end goal here. I think they see emotion as the enemy.

[00:37:38] We see how cold all the all the lumen people are. We see, you know, balance of the tempers, but it's not like they ever smile to have frolic. It's that they have to have absolute balance and they can't possibly be. Wait, they're Jedi. You know, Jedi. I could go on about how they're fucking dumbasses all day, but not today. Not today. Not baiting me, David. Did Mark get punched in the face by the frolic fist? Do we know?

[00:38:08] I was looking for it. When Mark bit Drummond's arm, I was like, oh, God, I'm right in the frolic. My wife told me to be quiet. One more thing about the scene where Mark's arguing with himself. So, the suggestion that your personality will be the top and my personality will be the bottom. I think this is just fundamentally false. I agree.

[00:38:38] I don't know if it's true that Mark S has only been alive for two years. And therefore, Mark Scout has 20 times the life experience. Mark S learned language, cultural memory.

[00:38:58] There's so much about who Mark S is that's dependent on their shared personage. And just because he can only remember the last two years doesn't mean that that's the whole of his personality. So, for him to worry that I'm just going to be an afterthought in the back of your mind,

[00:39:23] I just don't read these personalities the way that most people in the show are reading them. So, philosophically, I just think that's an incorrect point of view. Now, everyone in the show seems to hold that point of view until Helly finally changes her mind a little bit later on when she says, I am her. Right? I'm her. You can't be with me. I'm her. And finally, she changes her position on this. So, we're finally... One of all the people that changed.

[00:39:53] Yes. It's shocking that it would be... That's right. That's right. So, finally, we get to the point where it's like... And I think that Mark Scout should have framed the argument differently. He should have said, you're not a different person. You're me. And once our memories are integrated, then we will have each other's memories. Fundamentally, it is a lie that all you are is a worker bee down in that basement.

[00:40:20] Someone told you a lie about your identity and you should stop believing that lie. You're not different. We are the same. And I think that that's the argument that should have been made in that argument. But it's also like, if a parent is arguing with a teenager, are they ever going to say the right thing in the moment? Right? Like, they'll think of it later. Sure. And, you know, I think about in season one, episode one, they're all like idolizing their outies. Right? Yeah.

[00:40:49] Like, oh, what if he's like the president? And what if... You know, all these crazy things. And at some point, they realize that like their outies can be bad people. Right. And it's almost like the moment where a child learns that mom and dad aren't perfect. And they have to go, you know, every person goes through this as like, mom and dad are perfect, mom and dad are imperfect, and they are therefore bad. And then they're like, mom and dad are complex people just like everybody else.

[00:41:18] And those are like the three phases to get to adulthood. And Mark S has not gotten to the adulthood of like, my parents are nuanced people. And my outie as my dad is a nuanced person. And so just like me, I'm complicated like him. And if we were together, we would just be complicated together. He's not there yet. He might get there. Maybe that's part of his journey in season three.

[00:41:39] Well, and I think Mark S makes a really good point too in this argument that to me felt very authentic in this very bizarre, you know, conversation between oneself. He's upset because you never try to reach out. Now, whether or not you can or not, that's not the issue. Your point that you just made is exactly right. Like, inies know they're inies. And so all they, like, they're almost, you know, like you said, idolizing and kind of obsessed with, I wonder what I'm like out there.

[00:42:09] Ooh, that's such a big deal. Whereas it seems to me that the outie is like, there's a reason I check out. I don't care what happens there. That's just work. And I don't want to deal with that part. And so they're not like necessarily obsessing over, I wonder what my innie did today. They kind of want to know why I have a cut on my finger or why do I feel a certain way? But other than that, they aren't really that invested.

[00:42:36] So I think that's, it's a really, so much subtle work was done in that back and forth when Mark Scout sees him, his innie, you know, his recording. He would just, he just, whoa. Like, that's like, now it's a novelty kind of a thing. And then, then the innie starts expressing itself as, you know, an actual person with an actual feeling. Yeah. And Mark Scout is so condescending. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I heard you like a girl. That's great.

[00:43:06] And now that you understand what puppy love is, let me tell you what real love is. Yeah, I've been doing this for so much longer. And if you would only understand that, you would understand why you have to die and I get to have love again and you don't. Yeah. Right. Because you like, you like this girl a little bit. I like, I like her, you know? Like, I mean, I'm so smitten with Gemma. You don't even know.

[00:43:29] But, but I saw somebody say either on Reddit or Discord or something, like, this is like an older person talking about marriage with a teenager, right? Like they hear a teenager has their first, their first girlfriend. They're like, oh, wait till you get married. Right. And then your wife, your spouse can shout it and try to talk to you from the two rooms away. Right. And then, but then it's just also like condescending, right? Like I know what real love is. You don't. What you're feeling now is not authentic. Right.

[00:43:58] Who is squeaking? Oh, that's my rubber duck. Whenever I feel stressed, I just start, I just start squeezing a rubber duck in the background. No, I just, that's just me just, yeah, I have to de-stress. The tempers are unbalanced. I have too much frolic now. Talking about how, how things bleed over and don't bleed over. And we can get into this as, as we go on, I'm sure.

[00:44:22] But like you were saying how the artistic side of, of Irving kind of bleeds through, makes sense that Dylan would have the same, you know, relationship with. Gretchen. Or want the same relationship with Gretchen. And obviously also any Dylan, that's the only other woman I think he really comes in contact with. So it's like, and he knows it's his wife. So he's more inclined to, to, to be smitten. But like, I, it's certain things are really key. And I think it causes more questions with, with Mark and Gemma and the so-called barriers.

[00:44:53] Is that, you know, like Dylan's handwriting is the same, both in E and out. We can see that on the form. Oh, good catch. We, you know, like I said, there's, uh, Burton Irving seemed to have a chemistry even outside of it. Uh, Gretchen and, and, um, you know, has a different, uh, you know, they have the same relationship, at least attraction.

[00:45:13] But Mark and Gemma, uh, Ms. Casey and Mark S can sit in a room for a long, long time and, and do a lot of things with a candle that they shared together and have zero, uh, you know, barrier work happening there. Right. And then even to the point where like they kiss in an elevator and they both kind of just going, huh, there's no, and he knows that that's his wife, but there's not this extra level of like, yeah, now I'm, now I'm feeling it.

[00:45:40] So it's like, it brings into question one is, is this barrier unique because of the work that's being done from, you know, with Mark doing the, the data refining for Gemma, or is it revealing that there's not the love they think there is? Yeah. Yeah. They were, they were pretty upset with them towards the time and towards the last, uh, few moments of their, their marriage. David, you were going to say something before. Yeah.

[00:46:07] I don't remember what that was, but I did have a new thought, which is based on if, if these are Gemma's numbers and this is this MDR art, were, were everybody working on Gemma? Mm-hmm. And then another question that arises, which is we had a whole different refining team in episode one of this season that had worked in different centers around the world.

[00:46:37] So is this, is it just so happened that their best candidate that they found to stress test? The severance technology happens to be in Kier PE, uh, as opposed to, to, uh, elsewhere. Are they doing this elsewhere? I think that's an interesting question. Um, because they had other macro data refiners, right. From other, other places. So who are they testing this on? That's not Gemma. And Mark wasn't even the, uh, the team lead.

[00:47:08] Um, correct. PD, you know, initially. Yeah. PD was. So, yeah. So it does, you know, cause I think that's, that, that, that, that's still the, the question for me out of all this is like the answer, what they answered was like, okay, we know what the numbers are, but I'm like, but why? Yeah. Why, why these people, why was, why was Gemma, why was Gemma taken or whatever it is, however she got there? Cause that's still a question is how did she get there? Why was she chosen?

[00:47:36] Um, and you know, what makes, what makes this particular duo special? And if they're doing this all over to your point, um, are there test subjects like this all over? And this is just, you just try to pair them up or is there something, something unique still about these two? Yeah. I mean, we, we've been talking about, about Gemma's test.

[00:48:02] So I, I just want to like bring in that scene cause I feel like we're having that conversation anyway. Uh, you know, when Mark finishes cold, cold Harbor, Gemma is sending to sent to the matching room, wearing the clothes she wore when she came to Lumen there. She's asked to dismantle a crib. Well, James and Bauer watch. And that's the crib that Mark had bought. Is it definitely the crib or maybe the same model or something? Same model. I mean, it visually looked exactly the same to me.

[00:48:31] So, and then of course we see that scene of, and that's really why episode seven, I think was such an important episode of this season is because of all of the things that need to culminate or come together in this episode. You know, we got to see Gemma and her experience. So now when we see her on the floor and in this final test, we understand that.

[00:48:53] And we understand the emotional depth of the fact that they, um, went through a really difficult fertility treatment and, uh, their relationship. So I, I really think, you know, we, we can't have an episode 10 without episode seven in this season. I think it did a brilliant job. And episode seven is, I think going on my all time list of favorite episodes of television that have, I've ever seen on, on TV.

[00:49:23] Any other thoughts on this? I feel like we've been kind of talking about this the whole time. This Gemma's test. I, I, I, again, like I'm of the mind that they're trying to cure humanity of the emotional pain because that's not something that medicine isn't really doing. Right. To add on that thought is, um, Dromund says to, uh, what's her name from a mammalian's nurture, nurtureable about the goats, right? There's a whole thing about the goats going to lead to some spirit somewhere.

[00:49:52] But he said in Keir's war against pain, and we see on the license plate that, you know, the, the, the, what cure, you know, the ailment and an ailment for humanity. So there is something very much, John, about that whole question of what are the Eagans doing and what are they trying to bring to humanity through pain or through the avoidance of pain or technology to deal with. Go ahead.

[00:50:18] I was just going to say that one reading of this episode is to say that they accomplished what they set out to do. And the fact that Mark came into the room only helped. Agreed. The test. I had that same thought. She, she did not recognize him. He, he was no one to her. I think she had to make a decision. Like, do I trust that shmarmy voice? Yeah.

[00:50:45] Or do I trust the, the, the sincerity in this guy's eyes? This blood soaked human. Right. Might've been something that, that, that jarred her. I'm. She had no memory of him until she walked through the door. Yeah. I think she just had to go on like the sincerity of his voice, the earnest, you know, I, I just, I think that this proves their test. She does not remember him even connected, you know, to this physical object, to the cradle.

[00:51:15] A hundred percent. Um, it feels no emotions. He walks in the room. Then it could be that, uh, you know, the, the whole thing blows up, but it doesn't. She does not remember him. The barriers hold unless the barrier is the emotionality. Like, I see your face. I'm going to feel something. So if they're trying to separate her from her memories of trauma, then the, then the test holds.

[00:51:42] If they're trying to separate her from all emotionality, then maybe the test fails in the end. Cause she goes with, you know, she, she reaches out for love. Um, but then the question is why, why do they need 25 of these tests? 25 different personalities. Why, why do they need that many? What is the magic with the number 25?

[00:52:11] Uh, it seems like, you know, you, you, I mean, who decided, who decided? Like, this is a moment of momentous day because we accomplished this random number of tasks. Um, there, is there some sort of symbolism? Uh, is there like a, a religious significance to the number and their little cults? We don't know why this particular thing is happening. We also don't know.

[00:52:38] I mean, yeah, of course we need Mark scout, uh, because he's emotionally emotionally, emotionally connected to Gemma. Why are these other refiners needed? It's a good question. Yeah. And what are they, these other people who've never met, you know, I mean, of course they, they, they have these wellness checks with, with Hellie, but, or it's not, uh, wellness checks with, uh, miss Casey. Right.

[00:53:05] So they, but why, why do you need four? Why is it important to have four? Or if Mark is sort of key to this whole thing? Uh, I, I, I don't understand why Dylan or, or for Hellie are important for this task. It could just be four tempers. They, they want to like balance out the workplace.

[00:53:28] Like they're trying to keep a balanced workplace of like, like if Hellie is dread, uh, or actually, well, I, I think, I think, uh, she was malice, but Hellie's malice. Irving is dread and Mark is whoa. And Dylan is frolic. Now you have a balanced workplace. It's interesting. Okay. Yeah. But cause numbers, cause numbers do matter. Right. I mean, that's the thing is one, I mean, they've got between their, um, the tempers and then

[00:53:55] you've got the, uh, you know, you have all how many, how many things are broken down numerically. So that's why I like, yeah, 25 must matter. Right. Right. Yeah. I, they must have to have, have these emotions. I'm waiting for you, Steve, to like get out some, you know, ancient religious texts of numerology and in Babylonia. So I just want to say like, I don't know about the number exactly, but I think the reason we have so many of these is that each one is built off the last severed personality.

[00:54:24] And so you are, you are removing a certain kind of emotion from this one and then going to the next one and then the next one and the next one until you are left with this husk that has no emotions. Mm-hmm. And I think that's what final Gemma, apex Gemma is. Yeah. How, how tragic is it knowing that we just saw Mark S and Mark Scout go back and forth and realize that there's like this disconnect of under like, you know, Anthony's like, well,

[00:54:53] they're the same person. So just get over it. It's like, but not to them, to the, not to, to the any. Right. I mean, right. Not to these, these creations. And these are just to our knowledge, they just all have just their one alter ego. There are now 25 Gemmas that believe they, they matter. And that's what Bauer says, right? He goes, you'll kill them all when Mark goes and brings her on the elevator. And I think that's what he meant. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:21] That's a good, because I don't think he was, it didn't, it initially I'm like, well, why does he care? I mean, why would he, unless he's warning Mark, say, oh, you'll kill all your friends. Or whatever. But looking at, at it that way, it makes a lot more sense. That makes sense. Yeah. Because he doesn't care about the other innies. Absolutely not. He only cares about his pet Gemmas. Okay. Because I brought up the number 25, let me just throw out another possibility here. Maybe it's really 26 because you have to add the Gemma personality who was already there.

[00:55:50] Or maybe it's 27 because maybe they're not counting Miss Casey. So. Oh, both good points. I don't know if, I mean, we could probably do a deep dive on the number 25, but it's very well, it could be that that's, you know, that they're going, they're trying to do something else with it. Whatever the case is, we don't know why this is a momentous day. You know, why is it this particular test?

[00:56:13] And the only thing that I can come up with is this, they've, maybe they've targeted this person or this relationship as maybe this is as far as they've gotten or something like this. This is the most perfect test that they've ever done. Maybe they got to 22 or something like that, or 21. And this is the, this is the magic number. Yeah. Whatever.

[00:56:41] We don't know how they came up with the magic number, but they've got a magic number in mind. And is it? Yeah. Because. It could be that they've, they've done these and they always, they always fail at 25. And if this one gets pulled off. Yeah. It's. They, they, they, they, it's a milestone, but also it does. I mean, we also don't know, like, was she just going to take apart a crib and die? I mean, like there's more to this, right? So we, we should, the, the, the task was interrupted. And we don't know. You were taking apart a crib.

[00:57:12] Taking apart is way easier than putting it together. I'll tell you that much. I just put it. I put a free sign on it. But I took, I was teaching a couple of weekends ago, I was teaching my, my daughter, the ancient art of assembling Ikea furniture so that when she goes to college, she'll be able to do it. With or without instructions. Yes. With instructions and power tools. Just really quickly too. James Egan has a private elevator to a little room. And then we also see another secret room.

[00:57:41] So again, just more interesting mysteries on the, these lower floors. There's more going on than what we're aware of. But yeah, why the heck was James Egan so interested in seeing that going back to the question of 25? Like why, why did he go down to his little private booth, his little coin up booth there? He's just the guy who likes to lurk. You know, lurking is not a better computer. Yeah. Right. Oh gosh.

[00:58:10] Can we, can we talk about some of the other little scenes? Because I feel we're going to keep coming back to this like ending sequence, but Hellie and Dylan, they had some great scenes without Mark. Hellie has a confrontation with Jane where he tells her that she has care within her and Mark comes in and then she finished convinces him to finish cold Harbor and go save Gemma. And meanwhile, Dylan gets whiplash reading his Audi's response to his resignation requests. And he decides to help Hellie take on Milchick.

[00:58:39] The Hellie James conversation was really interesting. And there was a exceptional shot in there as well, where they were both silhouetted and Hellie was sort of in her fighting stance. And I know that was so good. Yeah. I clipped that one. And I think this whole question of, we get some world building in here too.

[00:59:02] And there's this question of, he sees the spirit of Kier in Hellie R, but not in Helena. And so what's that about? And again, a severed personality is displaying an essence or a quintessential nature of something that should not necessarily be present in a severed person.

[00:59:31] Whereas Miss Gemma is completely placid and robotic and does what she does. Our other innies actually have some personality and verve and wiles to them. Yeah. I'm wondering if there's a hierarchy thing, because I took it like, I see the fire of Kier in you as, I see your defiance. Mm-hmm. And I like that. Yeah. And I don't see that in my daughter.

[00:59:57] And yeah, it's like, maybe it's sort of like, we need a queen bee. I needed you to be a queen bee because we're going to have a lot of drones. Mm-hmm. And all the drones can't feel emotions. Didn't he also say that he thought he had saw it, but as she got older, it dimmed. Yes. Right, yes. So here's a version of her that's younger, right? So maybe she was, maybe she was more. Ah, yeah. We're getting a glimpse into what Helena was as a younger person.

[01:00:27] And who knows, maybe it was in her teens or preteens. And there was hope. And then as she became more, maybe more into the business and became more aware of things. She started boiling her eggs. She started boiling her eggs. Yeah. Like, hell, E.R. is probably a raw egg gal, right? And Dylan says, Audi Dylan says that to any Dylan, that Gretchen saw in you something that I used to be. Right.

[01:00:51] So when you strip, and Mark is, any Mark is jovial and kind and loves to sort of play and joke around. And Audi Mark is sarcastic and sardonic and has a really cutting humor, right? He's been really bent by life. And so these innies in some way are, are pure or more essential than, than others.

[01:01:20] I think that's a really interesting thing because again, where does that live? If severance can sever these kinds of memories, then what are you without your longitudinal memories? I think that's interesting. When you're stripped of experience, which creates, you know, experience helps build knowledge, but it may also build callous.

[01:01:42] And it may, you know, it may cause you to think that a really great season finale is not as good as you thought it was. Well played. 17-year-old David would have loved this finale. My daughter was saying something like that. She said she thought that there was a theme about something about innocence lost in this episode.

[01:02:06] And it really does make the most sense of that last final scene when they're running away. Like that's young love, right? Yep. Yep. You know, who cares about what happens half an hour from now? We are in love right here and that's all that matters. Right. And that's why the graduate ending is so apropos of this. Yeah, it's good. It's good.

[01:02:28] Is because if you haven't seen that movie, basically Dustin Hoffman's character interrupts a wedding and runs off with this woman that he's fallen in love with. And then they run out and they get on a city bus and then they're just sitting on the back of the bus. And then the camera's just on them and they're just sitting there writing and it's like, okay, what now? You had your moment.

[01:02:51] The faces fall as it's like, as you move, as the bus moves further and further away from the euphoric spontaneity of the decision, it's now headed in a different direction and they're stuck on it. Yes. The defiant moment of being heroic and locking the church with the broken cross. I went and grabbed a copy and rewatched the ending today. It's a really great scene. It's pretty hilarious. But it's packed full of visual meaning.

[01:03:17] And, but yeah, so now they're, and I think that was a smart way to end the episode for sure was just to freeze frame us there. A la Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid. I think that's a good pull as well, Anthony. That's a really good point. Anthony made a really good point last night during my ramblings on the phone was that even if they're only together for 10 more minutes, 10 more minutes to them is a lot longer in, you know, in relative to their existence and how much time they experience. Yeah. So back to Hellie and Dylan. Yeah.

[01:03:48] No, I did want to talk about Dylan just a little bit. The note that Dylan writes to himself is almost, you know, he's almost kind of coming to a mutual appreciation and respect, right? You know, you, you exist and I see value in you, right?

[01:04:11] I see, I see that you've got something that maybe I, I never had, or maybe I could have, or maybe I used to have and don't have anymore. And I thought that was kind of important because now we are, we don't really know what Dylan's going to choose. Because after that note, you could kind of think like, well, he might choose to stay severed. If, if it's still, if Lumen is still a thing, right?

[01:04:39] Or he might be like, okay, that's good closure for me. I think I'm, I think I'm done. So that's interesting to me. And then the other thing I was going to say is one of the funniest things of the entire series is Milchek giving him the note and then like bolting out. Yes. Yes. Great comedy. It was wonderful.

[01:04:58] On the Dylan and the form thing, contrasting that versus Mark, who Audi Mark is saying, well, come on, dude, of course you got to give up your life because my, my, the love of my wife is more important than your puppy love with a woman. Yeah. I can't even pronounce her name right.

[01:05:15] I can't even pronounce her name right.

[01:05:45] Right. If you freeze frame that, that scene, you'll see it. The, the boxes are unchecked and the form is not signed by the Audi. So he, Dylan gives Dylan G not only the, the respect and the note, but he gives him the choice. He, he says, it's not my choice to make. I respect you so much that I'm, it's, it's not even a question of me giving you the opportunity or not. This is not my place to say anything to you about that.

[01:06:12] What a contrast to between the communications between Audi, Dylan and Dylan G and Audi, Mark and Mark. Absolutely. Mark S opens with, uh, I owe you an apology. And again, going back to Anthony's talk about a little bit of condescension. There's there, it's a power move to say that, you know, like, cause he, what he, and it's, it's establishing power. It's establishing a hierarchy that says, I put you here.

[01:06:38] I also have the ability to apologize because I, I, I'm running. So condescending. So condescending. Yeah. Dylan gives his Audi or he gives his any the respect of saying, first off, fuck you. Right. You are, you are an equal person that I can have. That, that is, it's a, it's a, it's a potent, it's a potent way to, to, to talk to me. Like it almost like it actually does. Because he sees that it goes back against what Anthony was kind of talking about.

[01:07:07] Dylan sees his any as a different person to some degree and, um, and, and treats him as such because he has a different, um, barometer. He has a wife who's like, I prefer this version of you. And I, and that's a, to her, it's almost a different person too. Right. So like that disconnect is really interesting, but also the way that, um, the way that Dylan gives him like full agency throughout the whole thing. Stay if you want to stay, go if you want to go.

[01:07:37] Um, and, uh, whereas Mark's like, nope, there's a mission here. And I'll tell you what, I'll get you on the, I'll get you on the other side. Yeah. With this, this promise of reintegration, we'll be, we'll be, you know, we'll be reintegrated. We'll be together. Maybe. Another season finale, another, you know, attempt for Dylan to have a, a, a feat of strength to try to keep Milchak at bay while, uh, while, while actions go on. Milchak once again, it's just an awful floor manager. Yes, he is.

[01:08:07] Can I, can I also add, you know, we have this, you know, we're, we're praising Audi Dylan for giving his, uh, his any agency. What was happening in his house while he was writing this note very casually and calmly? His wife was struggling to like maintain the household with the kids. Yeah. She's like on the ground trying to get, so she's like getting beat to shit by her children. And he says, she's perfect. I get it.

[01:08:33] But this is what I mean is like, he gives lip service to like, oh, I want to be like you, but is he making a single effort to be like him? Well, that's why he wants him to stick around because it's like, you do that part. It's like multiplicity, right? You can, you can, you'd be nice to my wife. I will, uh, I'll, I'll, I'll watch cartoons. Like his kids will go to sleep at some point, right? He can just, he can just write this when they're asleep. I don't understand why he has to do it right now.

[01:09:00] Speaking of our, uh, floor manager, I had a question. Was the cure statue powered by an LLM? Was that like chat GPT cure? Because it was kind of interactive. Right. Somebody had control of that. I think. I think there's someone on a microphone. I mean, that's how this whole show began. You've got a PA system guy in another room in a sound booth. I don't know. At a microphone.

[01:09:30] But they had cue cards for when the jokes were going to be said, but then. But they went off script when, when Milchick. Insulted him and the cure was like, Thank you for the check got upset when he got, uh, he got told that he was, you know. Oh, the disrespect. If you had written the appendix, it would have burst. The disrespect. But then we get, get it once again.

[01:09:59] Nothing like saying, saying his first name is like the ultimate, like way to, to just like, every time you hear Seth, it's like, oh, like now I'm just like triggered. If I know anybody named Seth and someone says their name, I'd be like, dude, he's going to fight. And to Ramel Tillman's look on his face when he gets negged like that, when he gets that little cutting remark. Mm-hmm.

[01:10:22] That is the, you know, when we talk about, uh, race in the workplace here, and none of us are, uh, experience that in, in that way. But I was like, I had an insight into, oh my God, what do people who are somehow other, you know, a woman, uh, uh, a black person, a gay person, something else. Who get condescending. Can you give us more examples? I just like, I like listening to you list. Just list minorities.

[01:10:51] Yeah, I'm just going to list. A Chinese guy with one arm. Uh, we need more Apple podcast, uh, reviews. Oh no. No, please continue. I'm really enjoying this.

[01:11:06] But that, that, that, that condescending attitude, that, that belittlement and the look on Tramiel's Tillman's face was just so, so powerful in like, oh fuck. And then he's like, no, fuck that. I'm going to, I'm going to throw this back at you. And he does with one of his great little quips. I've just been so impressed by him. I just, I don't, I've never seen him in anything else.

[01:11:34] And, and he's given such great material, but who else can deliver it? Like this guy, like I'm, I'm just floored. Like there's a lot of great actors. I mean, how great is, is Adam Scott? I mean, he's, he's amazing. Uh, Gemma gets a great sort of wide. I don't know the actress. I can't pronounce her name. The, the actor, the actor, the Gemma. Yeah. She gets a great, like.

[01:12:02] Like four minutes of just like. There's just a gamut of emotional experience. But for me, this, the, the all-star, the, you know, just the all-star of this show is Tramiel Tillman. He's. Yeah. He's so fascinating. He does so much with his eyes. Like you were just saying, David. Um, and you know, on top of that. Clearly the best dancer on television. Oh my God.

[01:12:34] The years can't just dance. He gets interrupted all the time. I know. I know. Let's, let's get into the music dance experience a little bit. Shall we? Yeah. Let's go. Uh, when Milchik, when Mark rather finishes cold Harbor, Milchik begins his victory lap by trading verbal blows with animatronic cure. He introduces choreography and merriment. CNM provide a marching band accompaniment to his dance routine. Hell, he takes his walkie talkie distracting Milchik long enough for Mark to escape to rescue

[01:13:00] Gemma and man, like you guys are saying the performance here is absolutely amazing. You know, we haven't really talked about his name, Seth, you know, biblically Seth is the, the heir of Adam and Eve, right? Like this is the one who the, the kid who got it right out of their, out of their three first sons. Interesting. You know, Cain and Abel, everybody knows that story, but the other kid was Seth. Oh. And that's, that's where the line of Noah is born.

[01:13:27] And that's where the, the population of everybody goes. So I wonder if there's some meaning there of like, this is going to be, you know, there might be other flawed, uh, senior people at Lumen, but he's the one who's going to like lead everyone else to safety. Hmm. Interesting. Anthony, you had, uh, predicted early on that we were going to have an arc for. Yeah. Yeah. I thought, I really thought, especially when that kind of Smothers Brothers routine went bad.

[01:13:58] Another deep cut Smothers Brothers. Thank you. I thought, I thought he was going to turn and you can see it smoldering, right? Yeah. Yeah. You can see it smoldering and yet. It's just not there yet. Not there yet. And it does give me something to look forward to. Yeah. Cause I thought that that was, I actually thought we were going to see that this episode and the fact that we didn't, uh, gave me like that was, I found that'd be very satisfying cause I didn't want too much.

[01:14:28] Like I, you could just get Gemma out of the building and not be good with that and leave everything else unknown. And I would find it for the most part, I think they did that. And the physicality of Trammell Tillman, not only in his dancing, but him throwing himself against the vending machine and the door. And the way he jumps up on it when it falls. Yeah. Oh my God. This like, he's like, like he's ready to fight you so bad. It was almost like a superhero entrance, right? That's what I'm saying. This is our next action hero.

[01:14:57] I really think he could be amazing. I, can I just say this band. Would they keep a whole marching band down on the severed floor? Their, their commitment. You got to hand it to this band. They are not going to stop for anything. They just keep going. Like they are the energizer bunnies for sure. They don't care what, what's going on.

[01:15:24] Their fearless leader has been locked in a bathroom and there's a vending machine in the way. And they're like, well, we're not done yet. Like, well, because the, the, the lead trombonist is actually, uh, three notes away from, uh, getting a, a major project done in another basement. Well, and they don't really care until Helly starts taking the instruments away. Yeah. Because they were not being used for the proper, uh, Yeah.

[01:15:53] They were the proper, the property of, uh, what, uh, choreography and merriment. Is that what? Yeah. That's what it is. Great name. Great name. You got to think that that's the same level or the same department where the dancers for the waffle party came from. Probably. Yeah. I'd like to see, maybe they do the AV too of like the, the animatronics. They set that up. Yeah.

[01:16:19] I'd like to see a spinoff episode where it's like, there's sort of an office politics situation where the, the erotic dancers don't quite get along with the marching band. How many other kinds of dancers? Neither of them really know what real art is, right? Um, question, a needle drop question. Sorry, John. Um, I don't know if anybody picked up that. Obviously the second song was named ballad of Ambrose and gunnel. Yeah. But what was the music that they came in on? I recognize the melody.

[01:16:49] The, the, the cure him. Is that what that was? Yeah. Cure something, something cure. Okay. I thought it was a popular song, but okay. But before that needle drop, did you notice, um, serious? Yes. By the Alan Parsons project. Indeed. That was more popularly known as the bulls intro music. Yes. Uh, that was awesome to bring in, uh, uh, Mr. Milchek.

[01:17:17] Uh, fantastic. Fantastic. And then that sent me on a whole serious thing. Oh, serious is the dog star. All right, let me look up the Greek mythology on this, you know, you just run down rabbit holes in these. I just focused on Chicago bulls at this point. So I was like, okay, well that explains the red at the end. It could just as easily be. Chicago bull red. Yeah. It could just as easily be like a deep Egyptian mythology dive, or it could just be like,

[01:17:43] Hey, this is a signal that like somebody like 90s basketball who wrote this routine. Totally. My deep dive was captive bolt pistols. So. Oh, nice. Tells you what my brain is. Nice. Hey, just because we were on the scene, when the standup routine is over and he announces that the marching band is coming in and he's got to drag the robot off stage. Oh my gosh.

[01:18:11] The smile on his face is gold. Like just, just watch that scene over and look at the smile on Milchek's face. It's perfect. Perfect. Well, his entry is so funny because it's like, there's a delay, you know, cause the music just kind of stops and then there's a brief delay and then he just pops in and then the Cause he's busting ass from, from the break room. It's so good. It's just the, just great timing. It's so awkward.

[01:18:37] And again, it will, what makes it even better, at least the first time you watch, cause you're so tense. Like, dude, you got to get down there and get her. You got to go get her. I don't know what the timing is like, but you've got to run down. You've go save Gemma. But instead it's like, Nope, there's, there's a whole bunch of pomp and circumstance. You're going to have to sort through before you can get to that point. Quick tangent. And it doesn't have to be a long one.

[01:19:02] When Dylan's sitting in that break room, the, if you notice the room is triangular, there's a lot of obtuse and acute angles where the re the, the, the traditional semiotics of the interior spaces of lumen are squares and rectangles and right angles. But for whatever reason, the break room is not, it's very obviously triangular in nature. Hmm. Yeah.

[01:19:30] That I, I w I was taken by how abrupt those ankles were. Yeah. And, and why do they have professional like stadium level lighting throughout this entire floor? Like it's following, it's like leading Mark and, and Heli to MDR. There's spotlights going on. Like who is, is this part of CNM? Is this part of choreography and merriment or is this another department? So it's running these.

[01:19:59] One little nitpick I have is okay. The, the pulsing red lights running through the hallways, visually very cool. That was all great. But what purpose did the clack sounds and the red lighting actually have to do with the story? No guards came running. The place wasn't. Well, Drummond was the guard. He just wasn't alive. There was no knockout gas released.

[01:20:26] You know, there was no shutters being barred automatically on the door. Like there was no result of the emergency. And. Well, I think the reason is because your floor manager is now being held captive by CNM. Your heavy is bleeding out and on the floor. I don't know how many other security people you need in a situation like this, but yeah, you would think that there would be some sort of a tactical. Response.

[01:20:57] Yeah. There's just no response and it goes on and on and on. So I just don't really understand the, the purpose beyond the visual vibes, which I have no problem with. No, I think you're right, Steve. Milchick would be, will respond. The red lights would sort of bring Milchick. It would bring Mr. Drummond. And I think it would probably bring Mr. Grainer. All of those are off the board, right? Yeah. So. But they have a whole marching band.

[01:21:26] Why don't they have a tactical response team on Severin's call? Right. Well, and that, and that could be, that could be a, uh, a bit of a, a flaw in the hubris of, of Lumen, right? Like you got everybody under control and everybody, you know, cause it, it, it really doesn't seem like until this moment that all these people are like, well, wait a minute. Yeah. It looks like we do outnumber them. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And, uh. Right. Cause like it was never even like, it wasn't even considered the idea of rebellion.

[01:21:54] And so when, when, uh, you know, when Helly does it, you know, and they, and they sort of, uh, uh, was a, uh, kind of a remix of the, um, claymation version of, of Bert standing up and getting everybody fired up, you know, when they. Right. Yeah. I forgot about that. Yeah. Yeah. Cause like, cause he doesn't do that in real life, but that's kind of what she does at the end. Right. You know what? Hopefully that means. David, I think it's a great point.

[01:22:21] I was thinking back to like, in my thirties, I did some substitute teaching for a couple of years. Oh boy. And I was thinking like, God, there should have been a response team there. Right. Right. Like, look, all these, these, these, you know, look, if I wanted to, uh, try to talk my way out of a physical altercation with a teenager, I would, I could probably do that.

[01:22:48] But if all of these teenagers wanted to gang up and kill me, there would be no tactical response for this. Mm hmm. And this is, they, they treat these people like children. Right. So I think it is probably Steve. You're right. It's probably hubris.

[01:23:07] And it could be that they're thinking, well, most of the time they just kind of browbeat them and psychologically manipulate them into doing what they need them to do. We've never until this episode seen a Lumen employee get physical. Right. With, uh, with an any. Yeah. And this was interesting because I guess at this, I kind of read that too, is like, well, Mark S has already served his purpose. So the guy like Drummond probably doesn't care.

[01:23:37] Like when, you know, and, and whatever this is, is such a big deal that if Audi Mark, you know, ends up dead because of it, we're, we're past that because this is, this is a huge, like, if Mark is going to stop this from happening, he can't live period. Mm-hmm. Well, you know, I think the real answer is that Doge went to Lumen and, and got rid of the security. But, but really, I'm just thinking like season one, episode one, the door's not locked, right?

[01:24:06] He goes, Mark goes to Hellie, you can leave anytime you want. And she leaves and she comes right back in. And that happens over and over again. And so Lumen trusts the system of. Right. These are severed people. The people on the outside will just come right back in. We don't need security. We don't need locks on the doors. I mean, they will just police themselves. And the only person who wouldn't do that is Gemma. And she's another floor down. Mm-hmm. And when she did get up to another floor, Milchak had to hustle to meet her there, but it wasn't. Right. Like that big of a deal.

[01:24:36] He just needed to make sure she didn't go wandering around. Right. And he just turned around and sent her back down. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Good point. You just don't need an external force because the innies will police themselves. Right. Like even Miss Casey basically policed herself, right? To go back down. Mm-hmm. Did you think when things went green before the Chicago Bulls music comes in, I didn't think it was fog. I'm like, oh, they're gassing them. We're all so nervous, right?

[01:25:04] And then it turns out, I love that little twist. It's like, oh, they're not getting gassed. This is part of the showtime, baby. All right. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back. We'll talk about the end of the episode. All right. We're back. Let's talk goats, everybody.

[01:25:32] Drummond tells Lorne, which I didn't even realize that was her name until I had to look it up. Drummond tells Lorne to sacrifice a goat for Kier to help guide someone's soul. He hands her a gun with a single bullet. I guess bolt bullet. But before... Go ahead, David. Oh, no. I just have a... I can talk about that topic when we get to it. But before she could do it, Drummond notices Mark trying to get into the testing floor. Drummond attacks Mark, but Lorne helps take Drummond down.

[01:26:02] Mark holds Drummond at gunpoint and forces him to take him to the testing floor, accidentally killing Drummond while changing to his Audi. David, give us the deep dive on bolts, bolt guns. Yeah, this is called a captive bolt pistol. And you can actually find this specific model online. There are three different types of these. They can be pneumatically operated. They can be spring operated. Or they can be blank fired like this one was.

[01:26:30] So there's a powder charge in that cartridge that then blows that bolt forward. And this is used in stunning livestock for processing. If you have ever seen the movie No Country for Old Men, the character Antoine Trigur uses one of these, a different style of these, a pneumatically operated. But it's basically designed to incapacitate animals for different reasons.

[01:26:59] And so that bolt just goes in, locks in. You put in that cartridge. It has to be pressed up against an object to be fired. You can't just fire it willy-nilly. And once it's fired, you need to reset the bolt and put in a new blank round. So when he's pointing it at Sarah Bernhardt, it's not doing anything. There's nothing that can happen. That's why you just have to scream at her and point it at her the whole time while she says no. Yeah.

[01:27:29] And that particular- That scene's amazing. That particular bolt pistol that they had is actually a really old, old, old model, which again goes to the whole anachronistic use of technology by Lumen, just like Jane Egan's coffee and Helly's cutlery and that kind of stuff. I thought that this little scene was kind of a microcosm of the entire show in that you've

[01:27:59] created this severed culture specifically to generate these sacrificial offerings. And you're probably doing it because you don't want anyone else to know what is happening down there. And yet, because you've severed these people and taken away so many of their memories, they become

[01:28:24] devoted to each other and devoted to the work and create their own culture. And so now you've got a bunch of goat culture people who care about the goats. And then moreover, that's all they care about. They are all about the goats. And now you're asking them to sacrifice the one thing that they care about. And it's very similar to what Mark S says to his Audi.

[01:28:51] It's like, dude, you're misunderstanding. Like, this is all we have. And we've found a way to be whole down here. Right. And so that little exchange between Gwendolyn Christie and Mr. Drummond, it really does show the problem,

[01:29:17] the myopie of Lumen to think that what we can do is we can create these worker drones. We can tell them to do whatever we want them to do. And we can really do anything we want now because they're underestimating the emotional connection that these drones are going to form with what they're working with and who they're working with. Also, she says, how many more?

[01:29:45] So we know that this is something that has happened many times. You know, he says, however many we need, basically. But are they only doing this for deaths? Is this, I mean, Anthony, Mr. Religious Scholar. Yeah. Can you tell us about, like, animal sacrifice and religions? There could be many purposes. Right. I don't think that most of the time the animal sacrifice would be done to accompany the person to the afterlife or guide the person to the afterlife.

[01:30:15] Although you would have that with Egyptian religion. A lot of times what you'll do is you'll bury all of the things that the person who's going to go to the other side of the river is going to need. And you might include things like food and, you know, you might include, you know, certain things that you think that that person will need in the afterlife. So that it kind of reminded me a little bit of that.

[01:30:45] But then there was that question of, like, whether the goat was worthy, you know, like, does it have wiles? Right. That kind of is a combination to make you think, like, well, this is a purity thing. This is the best of its flock. So we're going to offer this, the first fruits to the deity. This was very Leviticus. Leviticus. Yes. Yeah. They're kind of playing a little bit fast and loose with that.

[01:31:11] But I do like that it almost has an early America flair to it. Right. The old timey gun, you know, like the Gwendolyn Christie's outfit kind of looks a little bit like a pilgrim. It very, it coded very Norwegian to me. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So the necklace and the belt buckle. But you have these modern hieroglyphics, too, right? That were an interesting touch.

[01:31:41] And so, but I also wonder, like, is this because there are really emphasizing the religious aspect of Lumen and it, like, there may not be, like, is that what we're to get out of this? Is that there is not this, like, oh, maybe it's not goats for cloning. It's just, they are really, they have a whole department dedicated to this ritualistic, you know, part of what they, their belief system.

[01:32:11] And this is what it is. And there are some people that are just, and it's an ultimate power move to, you are, you are here to work, you know, eight hours or however many hours out of the day to just become attached to. And then, and then sacrifice animals just for this, for, you know, to perpetuate the mythology, so to speak. And it's like, but it's, it's not done in a mat in a major ceremony either.

[01:32:37] Well, we don't, we're not really sure what would have happened if that wasn't interrupted. But I did wonder, like, do you only do this when a Lumen employee dies? Was this a ritual that you performed when they found out that Grainer was dead? Do you need a body to do this? Like, there's a lot about this that we don't know, but I'm glad that you mentioned the hieroglyphs because it does suggest, you know, there's a mythology around this.

[01:33:06] I'm looking at the two of the, the, the two shots that they showed us. One is a goat, a lot, a living goat in the middle. Yeah. And on the left side is a person kneeling and almost in a supplicant or offer a Tory way. And on the other side is a person standing sort of with a one arm stretched out. And then the second one they showed us is the goat upside down with rays shooting off as if like it was giving off.

[01:33:36] It was, it was a, like a sun source or something like that. Yeah. And they feature that, that whole thing very specifically in the, in the final credits animation as well, which is, which I, you know, and it could just be that if you look at the, the, the credit animation, what it, what it showed, what it opted to show over the course of sort of the, the two seasons. Um, I don't know if that's meant to just bring us back to some of the, the key points or if those are highlighted for a specific reason.

[01:34:08] I don't know either. Did, during the fight scene in the hallway, speaking of homages to other movies, the Mark and Drummond fight really gave me Barton Fink vibes when John Goodman and, uh, who was the other guy? Uh, who is it? Uh, was it, it wasn't Totoro, is it? Who was it? Yeah. Totoro was Bart and Barton Fink. Was he the one who was the character? Anyway, there was a big fight scene in a hotel with a burn that was burning and.

[01:34:34] And it was just sort of this thing where they were throwing each other around quite violently early. And one, one combatant was much larger than the other ones. That was the, the vibe I got from that. Hmm. A little tribute to Totoro, even though he's not in there. Yeah. Can I, can I vetch a little bit about Drummond's demise? The, the, to me, the fact that his body kept the elevator open, which allowed them to escape.

[01:35:00] And then that his blood was allowed, was the thing that Mark needed to get into the door from his tie. It, and then the gun, you know, the, the, the gun going off was a great comedy in and of itself, but it just felt too mechanical for me. Like it was, uh, you know, this, the, this happened so that the characters could escape up the elevator. And then that happened so that Mark could actually get into the door and without those things. Yeah. We couldn't have.

[01:35:29] I was impressed because I'd never seen that before. And I watched so many movies that I almost feel like there's nothing new under the sun. You mean the death of Drummond, the actual death? Chekhov's. Both the death, both the death. Death and the tie. I was just impressed that I'd seen something new. I, I've, I've seen people try to break into rooms like that so many, so many times with like, uh, you know, you, you cut off the thumb.

[01:35:57] Or you use a, a, some kind of eye scanner or something. I had never seen this particular thing before. And so I was just kind of impressed that, uh, it all worked, you know, it all kind of fit together in that way. But, um, so you thought it was a little bit too coincidental. Yeah. I just felt the seams of the writers using the mechanical devices of Drummond's demise.

[01:36:25] I liked this episode that they decided to creatively use things that we've seen all season. Like, how often have we seen Mark in a tie? How often have we seen that, you know, that vending machine? Yeah. Uh, you know, there, there, there are things that they've decided, like what, they don't really have a lot to work with. Right. So in order to kind of work these things into the narrative in ways that we haven't seen before, that was kind of impressive.

[01:36:54] Well, I also liked, go ahead. Well, I was just saying if our assumption is that the, uh, sacrifice of the goat is, uh, somehow linked to Gemma's demise. The fact that you essentially sacrifice Drummond and use his blood for her, uh, salvation essentially. Nice. Nice. I like that a lot. I did like the sound of the elevator door not being able to close. Yeah. Cause Drummond's body was there.

[01:37:22] Just, it really gave you the sense of, uh, I don't know, suspense or, you know, it was some kind of irregular beat that, that raised the tension. And I thought that was, that was fantastic. I loved the idea that, well, there, how are they going to get back up through the elevator?

[01:37:44] Uh, yeah, without a key card, yeah, without a key card, they would have been stuck and his body makes a convenient blocking for them to get back out. Right. Well, the whole, yeah, the whole plan is desperate. They don't, I mean, they, they kind of know what they want to do, but Audi Mark has never been in one of these hallways ever. Right. So, so it's not like he's going to be able to intuitively make his way around, you know, and that's why he's screaming with a used bolt gun. Because he doesn't have a lot of options. The way that he's just like, ah!

[01:38:14] Like he doesn't even know what to yell, right? He's just, uh, it's so good. So, so just quickly, the rescue that is, uh, Audi Mark goes through the testing floor, finds Cold Harbor, you know, has this little confrontation with the, uh, attendant. I don't know what her name is. Does she have a name? Uh, he uses Drummond's tie to, uh, blood in his tie to open the door to Cold Harbor and convinces Gemma's new Indy to leave. Her Audi recognizes him and the couple embraces escaping to the severed floor.

[01:38:41] There, Miss Casey and Indy Mark awake to a kiss, but dismiss their confusion and run to the stairwell. Mark pushes Miss Casey out and pulls the door shut, locking Gemma out. Helly appears behind him and Mark S chooses her over the pleas of Gemma. Mark and Helly run through the halls in the perfect finale scene, David.

[01:39:03] One thing that my daughter said is that the flashing red lights, when the red light came on, uh, you saw Mark S's blood a little bit less clearly. So it was almost like if you're looking at his face and the red lights on, you don't really see the blood very well. But as soon as the light goes back to normal, he's a bloody mess.

[01:39:32] And so what Nessa said was that was a great scene to kind of remind us of the duality at stake. Because you're flashing between one person to the other person just by using the light. And then just to piggyback on something she told me much earlier is that almost always whenever you see a warm color on down in the basement, it represents danger.

[01:39:58] Which I always kind of thought, I don't know, because Helly's hair is red. But mid-season, Helena was down there with red hair. So it was a little bit of a way to alert us, like, maybe don't trust this person. Um, so just the use of color in this particular scene. And I'm not sure. I'm not sure if you need red lights to indicate.

[01:40:27] Like, is it not enough to have, like, a horn blaring? Um, it kind of felt like Starship Enterprise a little bit to me. But, uh, visually it was very stunning. I think you need, um, I think you need the, uh, lights for, uh, uh, C and M. Because if they're in the middle of, uh, practicing, they're not going to hear the horn sounding over there. Ah, very good. So that's where the lights come in. Very good, very good. The nurse's name is Cecily, by the way, played by Sandra Bernhardt.

[01:40:57] Cecily. Oh, okay. You know, there's a theory going around now that I see that that was Helena at the end. That was not Heli. And I guess the argument for that is Heli was never cruel, right? And it was kind of cruel to take Mark away. But I didn't read it as that. I read it as, I'm just going to be selfish for a minute. Mm-hmm. Yeah, he made the choice. Come on. Yeah, I agree with you, Anthony. This is, this is people looking for extra theories.

[01:41:27] Well, I mean, you could have, I mean. The setup line for. You could do the Glasgow block if, once the alarms go off, maybe that's, maybe that's, there's your, there's your, your, your, you know, Calvary coming through, David, that you're like, well, who's going to come in? I mean, you could, you could Glasgow block her and say, all right, well, things are going a little haywire. Go get Mark. Right.

[01:41:53] I was going to say that the setup for Mark's choice, is it a Sophie's choice? No, it's not a Sophie's choice. Is it? I don't know. It kind of is in a way. Yeah. I don't know if it's exactly that. It's sort of, it's almost a reverse, but. It's in the zone. But he. There is death on the line. And it could, you're definitely choosing maybe. Right.

[01:42:21] One of these, one of these babies to be left and killed or whatever. Well, because he's not, no one's there to escort Gemma away. If he goes out that door, he becomes outing Mark. Outing Mark knows what's going on. Yep. And so there is, Gemma's in much better, much better condition to be taken care of. He, if he's aware of the situation and that like he almost got killed by Drummond, he should

[01:42:49] already make it the connection that they could find me and kill me and that's it. You know, that, you know, there's no purpose for me anymore. So it's not even a matter of me going away as in any, but I could be essentially getting rid of Audi me as well. Um, so it's a, it's a real bold move. And that's why I, I had that Helena thought for a second. And, uh, and I'm like, well, that's how, that's how you keep them. And that's how you can keep him hostage.

[01:43:17] And, you know, you can, now you've got another, you have a marketing or a bargaining chip. She says a line to him when they're sitting at their terminals, you know, that she's, she, and we talked, we talked about this before, uh, during the hot take section, she acknowledges and is resigned to her fate. She says, I am her. I have no opportunity to be anything.

[01:43:45] I have this little tiny existence down here, but ultimately my fate is determined by Helena. Mm-hmm. And she, she's resigned to her fate and she communicates that to Mark. And then that's when Mark has some sort of, he turns and says, okay, well, I'll finish the file. But his inner turmoil is constantly building still around so that when he did is confronted

[01:44:14] with that final choice of go this way for Gemma, go that way for Helly R. It's because Helly R said to him, I don't have a life outside of here and we may ultimately be doomed. And I think that's a lot of the conversation is what life can innies have if Lumen wants to just shut the floor down, they're snuffed. Right. And then as you, as, as you have all have been saying, you know, this is their one moment

[01:44:44] to burn bright. We'll burn as bright as we can for as long as we can. And then poof, we, we, we, we accept that fact. So let's try to carpe diem, right? Well, but she says, she's telling him, she said, if, you know, if we take her at her word, she's saying why, maybe you can trust Gobelle. Maybe you can trust your Audi. You have to do that because you can't trust me essentially. Right. In the grand scheme of things. No, that's a good call.

[01:45:12] You can't trust me and what, and what my family does. So, so that's why it does seem a little counter to that version of Helly to go in the hallway and, and present a dilemma. So that's where, that's where you could make the argument for the Glasgow block. That's where you could make the argument that, okay, that's your fail safe when Drummond and Milchak are not available.

[01:45:36] Activate Helena, go get Mark back because Helly R is, is creating this revolt. And, and. Would the audience be set if they came back season three and they were like, oh, well, here's five minutes before where the Glasgow block, you know, kicked in and, and Helena took over, would we be, would the audience be satisfied by that? Would we be upset? Would that be a little bit too clever?

[01:46:04] We might overlook it, but that's the one thing that you can't do with a cliffhanger. You cannot. Retro actively. Yes. You cannot steal the teeth that made it interesting in the first place. So I don't think that they would do that. I do think it's, I don't think it's Helena. Helena, I think. Well, it's not, it would be Helena. Well, all right. I was thinking about the prophetess from House of the Dragon. RIPR reviews.

[01:46:32] It's P.E., gentlemen. It's not P.E. I think it's funny that this whole, this whole episode shifts because they get her name wrong. And I think our listeners were actually cluing us in to saying, look, guys, don't, don't tread so, you know, haphazardly on these names because it'll turn the entire series around. Our listeners are from Lumen. Can I ask everyone, does Gemma know that Mark is severed or did she think that that was

[01:46:59] Audi Mark rejecting her basically and choosing someone else? Because there's nothing in Gemma's experience that suggests Mark is severed. To her, Mark just shows up at Lumen for the first time to rescue her. She didn't know Mark was working at Lumen. I'm Luke Skywalker. I'm here to rescue you. Right. Because the only thing we know, she wants to go back to see Mark, right? And, uh, and, and Bauer says that he's already moved on. Yeah. So that's a really good point. Like, so she sees it like, oh my gosh, my husband just came to save me.

[01:47:29] Um, I mean, yeah, I mean, I guess she, you can, I think she's going to put it together. I mean, she's got 24. Life has been severed. But in that moment, but in that moment, does she put it together? Like, all she sees is somebody who a minute ago was rescuing her is now like, I don't know if I should come with you. And then turns around and runs off with another woman. That's all she sees. Which she was told that he has. Right. Right. Well, maybe she had bad breath. You know, they were just kissing. They were just kissing. And then he decides to go the other way.

[01:48:00] Yeah. You gotta, you gotta wonder. You gotta breathe into your hand at one point. You think her breath was worse than a guy that probably took blood in the mouth? All right. I got, I got, um, five points along a theme. I'm going to run past you guys. Okay. Early on in the birthing retreat, you've got, um, a lamp that looks like a goat eye. I don't know if anyone, did you see that? Wait, which scene again was it?

[01:48:28] This is when like, Cobel was in the birthing center. Hmm. All right. There's a. I picked up on the two figurines in front of the fire that were both pregnant. There's a lamp that, that looks like a goat eye. Okay. Then you've got that claim from Dr. Maurer earlier. Is it Bauer or Maurer? Maurer. Maurer. All right. I said Bauer, so I'm probably. He says. They're coming for you, Steve.

[01:48:55] What's going to happen after Cold Harbor? The world will see her, right? So now we've got two connections along the theme of scene. Um, when they're doing the standup routine, what does Keir say? Uh, my favorite principle. And he says, you know, probity. And he's like, no vision. Well, yeah. Cause that's the joke saying that the reason why he knew that he wasn't, he didn't look good is because. Yeah. But Anthony's weaving.

[01:49:24] He's doing the weave. Yeah. So vision is mentioned. We, we hear that, uh, that's his, uh, Keir's favorite. Uh, what is it? A principle or whatever. Yep. Um, when Miss Wong leaves, we find out that it is the year of vision. Oh, good point. Yeah. Yeah. And while Gemma is assembling the cradle or the crib or whatever, the song that's playing

[01:49:52] is I'll be seeing you in all the familiar places. By Billie Holiday. Yeah. So, all right. One of these, two of these might be coincidence. What clearly this is all intentional, uh, seeing vision, something about this is either a theme for this episode or a theme for the next season. What do we make of this? Well, goat's eyes are rectangular. All of the elevators are rectangular. That's true.

[01:50:23] There are 25 points of, uh, convergence within the elevator. No. I hadn't picked up on any of that. So I think that's really good. I mean, the one thing that I do know, not, not know, but one thing that I think there was some discussion around was do the lumen calendars work on a cycle of nine? So it's nine principles.

[01:50:48] So each year is just like, uh, some different Zodiac systems, uh, you know, every, whatever frequency it's that's what comes back up again. So is, is that a cycling of that? I think so. Why vision? Oh, so then maybe it's 27 personalities. Cause it's a multiple of nine. Hmm. Look at you. I don't know. Who knows? I didn't thought about the vision. Why would vision?

[01:51:16] What would vision be about? Who would be seeing? I mean, there's a lot of watching obviously here. We have watchers. We have Jamie and watching. Okay. So let's go back to Dr. Maurer. Very cryptic. The world will, she will see the world and the world will see her. Yeah. That's what's going to happen. But is that a metaphor for death? And if so, how is that a metaphor for death? Because we know that that's what everyone thinks is going to happen to her.

[01:51:45] She's going to complete this test. Then they're going to send her on to the next life. Um, well, the key thing to remember about the death part of it, and I'll let you get over in a second, is, is they say she's already dead. Well, because there's 25 of her. So the Gemma may be dead, but the version that they finish with her may live on. Because we, we, we see these innies being, when they're shut off, they're dead. Like, so that's where the language gets a little bit loose, right?

[01:52:15] So if they go, well, Gemma's already dead. That is because maybe, maybe Gemma physically is alive, but it's a different version of her that, that lives on as a, as an example or a representative of whatever Lumen is accomplishing. So maybe next season, let's look for vision themes, you know, cause I, I, I'm drawing a blank here. I, I see these points along in Constellation, but I don't see what it's putting together.

[01:52:44] What the shape is. Yeah. So, all right. So the other thing that Maurer says that I want to talk about is when they're leaving the exports floor or whatever, the testing floor and the elevator shutting, he yells, you'll kill them all. We talked about this before, wasn't we? That it was, he was going to kill the 20, the 25 Gemmas. Yeah.

[01:53:14] That's what we were taking out of it. These are all of Maurer's wives in his head, right? Thank you. Like these are all his, his, uh, you know, he's, he's doing the sister wife thing, but non-traditionally. Okay. That's how, that's helpful to me. I was thinking about like, uh, I don't know, I don't know why I didn't put that together. That makes a lot of sense. Is there any mythological constructs around 25 wives or 25 spouses? I don't know. Maybe we need to go. I remember, uh, a movie, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers.

[01:53:45] Uh, but, um... Well, Brigham Young was a busy man, apparently. And so were we. So, why don't we, uh, any, any other thoughts on this episode before we wrap this up? That was a master transition. Thank you. Thank you. Anything besides the equator other than just the fact that it sort of separates the two hemispheres of the Earth? Hemispheres.

[01:54:14] And the brain. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh! And the severance chip goes right in between it. Mm-hmm. And I wonder if there's something, something to be said for how they, they, they jokingly play with the idea. Again, I'm putting on my, my Logan's Run hat again, uh, where they say, you know, maybe it's a building so big that it became a continent and they kind of laugh it off. And I'm like, that's not that funny. So I think that means something. Um, and because the thing about Logan's Run, again,

[01:54:43] I don't know that it's all this, but like, it's like a world, it's their world, it's bigger than just like this. They're not in a building. They're in a whole world. And then it turns out that that entire world was fake. And outside of it was, it was a, uh, you know, a, a moss covered Washington, D.C. And there was like no inhabitants. So I wonder if Lumen is, it, it, they think it's a, it's a, it's a world within a world kind of a thing. That's. See, John, Steve is getting Logan's Run on a whole other level that you just never

[01:55:13] got to. So. I think you're probably right. You're probably right. I, I do not get Logan's Run as, I, I remember liking it though. I remember saying nice things about it. Yeah, yeah, you liked it. I remember that. Uh, I just didn't like your war movies. You maybe watched like six war movies before you realized that I didn't like war movies. And then I realized that, wow, I was fed, we were all at that generation fed, spoon fed on a diet of Westerns and war movies. And that was pretty, pretty atrocious.

[01:55:38] Also Lumen's logo is, is, is like a globe and then Lumen creates an equator type situation. Oh yeah. Nice. Yeah. Building big enough to be its own continent. I'm just, I'm just, I'm going to, I'm not giving up the Logan's Run concept yet because also Hellie's wearing a greenish, you know, kind of a top. And so is the, well, I think it's, I forget her name. Yeah. She's a green in Logan's Run. There you go. Yep. Absolutely.

[01:56:02] I think just the last thing I do want to praise the show for is the way that they were laying tracks in season one and then they were laying tracks in season two for the finale. And, and so like having conversations about the ethical dilemmas of innies or do, do they have agency outside? Do they have souls and can they be saved?

[01:56:27] So they were weaving in all of these, these really interesting questions, which then culminate in this episode. And I just, I do appreciate their forethought and sort of holistic because you're, you, you know where the story's going, but you're, you're breaking seasons independent of each other and writing and then writing episodes and then breaking the episodes.

[01:56:53] So there's this huge process where lots of little stuff comes up out of sort of bubbles up out of the process that you haven't seen at the beginning. And that has been a very seamless thing. So one of the things that I was thinking all about this episode, especially with the Mark conversations was, well, what rights doesn't any have? And that was all pre set up for us to have that conversation. And that, that was really good.

[01:57:20] So there's a lot of interesting moral and ethical questions around the innie outie construct. And on a, on a more, you know, not quite that deep of a level, we now know or have a better idea when they first see the goat and the guy is being very protective. It says, this one's too young. It's not ready. You can't have it. And that's it. Yeah. The goat thing too, that it's shepherding a soul from one place to the spirit of cure.

[01:57:49] So there's a lot more, a lot more goat stuff to be. Okay. Lots of goat stuff to be. Okay. One, one little harebrained theory. Okay. One of the other refiners was from Peru. Italy. Wasn't there, wasn't there a refiner? Oh, from Italy. Yeah. Remember he was drinking a little espresso cup to lumen on the bottom. I want one.

[01:58:17] Was there a reference to a lumen facility in Peru? Don't think so. I feel like I vaguely remember this too. Peru. Okay. I was just looking up, like, does the equator run through Peru? And there's, like, one tip. There's, like, the one little spot. It must be a very small geographic unit that actually touches the equator.

[01:58:41] But if you were going to say, hey, let's go to Peru, meet me at the equator, it would lead you to pinpoint an exact place on the globe. So I don't know. Maybe I'm inventing Peru. I don't know why I have that in my head. Yeah. I can't remember. Needle drops? Yeah. Anything that you didn't mention yet? I know we talked about a couple. Well, yeah. Serious by the Alan Parsons Project.

[01:59:06] I'll Be Seeing You by Billie Holiday, which was, I believe, the music in the Christmas gift writing room. It was in one of the other rooms that Gemma was in. PE is the international country code for Peru. I thought, oh. Serious? No. Peru, really? So this leads me to my errata. Okay, hold on. I'm not done with needle drops.

[01:59:32] Well, let me just, on the PE quick, and then we'll send you back to your needle drop. Don't worry. That's fine. Don't worry. PE. So I had been like, it's Pennsylvania. It's Pennsylvania. Because for some reason it was PA in my head. And as I'm recording with Mark from Nevermind the Music on the Supply Closet bonus episode we did last week, I realized live on air that it was PE and that I've been spreading misinformation. So apologies for that. We did have John H. and Jonathan P. both write into emails and say, hey, John, you're wrong.

[02:00:02] And you're right. I was wrong. Now, David, return to your needle drops. We have The Windmills of Your Mind by Mel Torme. Steve, did you get a chance? I've been running around all day today. I didn't get a chance to do any digging on windmills of your mind. Just looking at the lyrics primarily and how just it's, you know, I mean, it's pretty clear it's talking about consciousness and everything. But I do think it's, again, like when I'm obsessing over my carousel thing, you know, that showing up in there.

[02:00:31] But just this idea of sort of this round and round, you know, concept. And it really comes in handy when we think about how the show starts, right, in season two with him running down the hallways. And then he's running down the hallways again. But it's like, even though it's a different scenario, it's the same kind of frantic, well, what are you going to do once you get to wherever you're going to go? Right. And it's just you there. You're still there no matter what the circumstances are. Right, right. Yeah.

[02:01:01] A very important fact is that Mel Torme was nicknamed the Velvet Fog. The Velvet Fog. And Judge Harry Stone from Night Court was his number one fan. Oh, yeah, I remember that. That's right. So, I mean, maybe there's something to be gleaned from that, Anthony. We can do a Night Court deep dive on our season wrap. And then the last song was Work Song by Bobby Darin.

[02:01:30] Great. It was a cover, though. That's a cover of another song, right? Was it? Yes. Well, I was on a... I saw that you didn't write anything in the outline for these, so... I've been on the streets all day today, so yeah. Yeah, this was a cover of it, but I don't know who originally did it in this article that I'm looking at. Okay. Fair enough. I was not diligent in my duties, and I need to be reinstated.

[02:01:55] Well, who is? We only did, like, two hours and 15 minutes of this, so... But it's a great one to end with because it's about, you know, it's... The Work Song is like, you go, oh, yeah, because they're in a workplace, but no, this is Breaking Rocks and a Chain Gang. So, it suggests a prison concept that you can overlay with what... Like, that's really... Lumen is essentially a prison, or it could be a foreshadowing that says you're going to be down here working as...

[02:02:25] Ah, good call. That's a good call. Breaking up these rocks on a chain gang. Yep. Serving my time because I've been convicted of a crime. Yep. And I just want to say, everyone, I didn't work in much feedback today because we were so packed with everything, and we didn't get very many emails yet. It's mostly Discord. But just thank you, Brian8063. Wanted to remind us that, you know, when Anthony presented earlier in the season about the Civil War with Cold Harbor... Or should I pronounce it how Cobell does?

[02:02:56] Cold Harbor. Cold Harbor. She leaves a space the size... You know, you can drive a truck through the gap. Mark, I care about you. You know, they must be doing, like, a service, a fan service thing of her going, Mark. Mark. Because everybody loves the way she says it. You know, thank you, Brian8063. Thank you, Chumberooney. Chumberooney was with David, didn't love the episode that much, and was a little let down by the season.

[02:03:21] Said that they were watching The Leftovers, and that made them do some unfair comparisons, maybe. There are dozens of us. There are dozens of you. Not me. In Cincinnati, Joe was talking about... It was cool to see Hellie's transformation that we talked about. Of like, oh, you know, I might die from this. My Audi's not going to do reintegration, but maybe you should go save her anyway.

[02:03:47] So, if you do have more questions, feedback, cocoonsofhorror at gmail.com. Steve and I will be doing a wrap-up pod over at Properly Howard. And I'd like to mention a GoFundMe if I can. So, I'm raising money for a woman named Caroline who needs a pacemaker. I've got a strong connection with a hospital in Zimbabwe that I used to work at. But we will leave the GoFundMe link in the show notes.

[02:04:17] Anything that you can give would be greatly appreciated. All right. Thanks for that, Anthony. And I think we guys... You know that Logan translates to little hollow or small hollow? You know, like woe's hollow? Now we're doing a deep dive on Logan Run. A woe's hollow. Steve, if Anthony won't talk to you about Logan's Run, you and I could do a supply cause bonus episode. I'd love it. The semiotics of Logan's Run. Oh, baby. All right, everybody. I'm taking him away from you, Steve.

[02:04:47] Anthony, I'm taking him away from you. Properly Howard, what are you doing next other than that wrap-up? We'll do the wrap-up. Steve and I are covering The Hedge Knight over at Electric Bukaloo and generally interested in looking forward to our next season of film coverage. We're not sure when that's coming out. So, on the Lorehounds, we're doing Wheel of Time. We got screeners, so we're doing day of drops of the episodes

[02:05:16] covering the current episode. Really good season. Everybody should check it out. We've got Andor and The Last of Us coming. I have a fun promo coming for Andor. I hope everyone is looking forward to that. I know, Anthony, you were on a wrap-up from Andor Season 1, so I hope we can get you on air at some point for Andor Season 2. I would love to do that. I'm looking forward to that quite a bit. Very cool. Check out our affiliates. We'll shift dust, radioactive ramblings. Never mind the music. All doing great things.

[02:05:45] We'll shift dust, doing Dune soon. Radioactive ramblings, doing Invincible. And Invincible. I think they're wrapping that up because the season's ending. And never mind the music covering music and psychology together. You can hear them on our supply closets as well. Rings and rituals if you want more Tolkien stuff. And plenty of other stuff coming. So, definitely check us out. Follow the link. Create all our socials. Follow it to all the feeds that we were talking about, including Properly Howard. And thanks, everyone, for a really fun season.

[02:06:14] I hope everyone checks out the wrap-up on the Properly Howard feed. This podcast is a joint production of the Lorehound and Properly Howard. Click the link tree in the show notes for links to more podcasts, our Discord server, and ways to support the show. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Is it the Frank or the Beans? Think of a song you really love. Don't you want to know why you love it so much? Well, we can't answer that.

[02:06:42] No, but we can deep dive into it anyway. Unless we get too sidetracked. We're the Nevermind the Music podcast. One musician. And one psychologist. Talking about iconic songs. The musical tricks that blow our minds. And what they show us about our minds. Join us each week as we pick apart everything from TLC to Weezer. And from Billie Eilish to Bruno Mars. With plenty of distractions in between. Check out Nevermind the Music wherever you get your podcasts.