Andor - S02E04 - Ever Been to Ghorman?

[00:00:00] Attention all units, we've got our sights on a new episode of Andor. We're gonna need some recon on this. Jango Squadron, on your six. To anyone else on this comlink, send all transmissions to andor at thelorehounds.com. The Force be with you.

[00:00:41] Welcome to the Lorehounds Andor podcast. I'm John from the Lorehounds and we're your guides to a galaxy far, far away. This is our coverage of Andor Season 2 Episode 4 titled Ever Been to Gorman? With the weekly triple drops of the season, we're doing our coverage Squadron style. I'll be handling the first episode each week, Alicia does the second one, David does the third one, and each of us brings in a co-pilot.

[00:01:05] And today, my co-pilot, I'm honored to have on my team today, Jean, famous for his comics expertise and his orders to kick rocks. How you doing, Jean? I'm good, I'm good. I'm alright. So far I'm withholding on those orders right now. That's great. That's great. I mean, yeah, there's not a lot of people to kick rocks at. Nah. They're mostly, even the villains, you're like, I kinda wanna see what you do. So this is your first time with us this season.

[00:01:34] Yes, it is, it is. What's your take on the season so far? I'm really enjoying this last drop this week. Yeah. The first three episodes for me were just okay. Mm-hmm. But really, episode four, I think really, for me, started a journey. Yeah. And I'm really anticipating seeing where it goes.

[00:02:04] This was really good stuff. Yeah. So I'm really happy with where we're at right now. I'm saying really a lot tonight. But yeah. You're just that excited. Yeah, I am. Because it was good. I'm watching the episode last night. I got the feels for when I first started watching Andor, right? And I didn't feel that last week. But I did this week. Well, I'm glad we have you here this week then. Because we want you to be hyped here. Oh, last week could have been kicking rocks.

[00:02:33] I was having a great time last week. Even with the frustration, I was like, I was with it. And we had Marilyn last week. This week, you're with me to open the show for, you know, we've got the triple drop every week, which I still think is insane. But it kind of gave us this excuse to do something crazy and split up coverage like this. Which is fun. And it's been fun so far. Yeah. The pods from last week were really good. No, I appreciate it. I appreciate it.

[00:03:02] And I love the other two that I was not on. It was nice to hear six different voices, you know? Yes. That was a lot of fun. With each their own, you know, entry points to the universe and how they're feeling things. So it was really cool. Right. So can you give us your hot takes on this episode? I mean, it's all about Cassian and Bix for me. Yeah. I just, their dynamic, that was something to behold.

[00:03:30] Uh, I really thought that they were doing an excellent job of just showing two people trying to deal with trauma. Um, and not really knowing how to do it. Yeah.

[00:03:50] Cassian being a protector and Bix needing her space to be, just to, to be, you know? Good television. Um, I enjoyed it thoroughly. Uh, yeah, this was, this was what I was looking for.

[00:04:13] Like these character stories that I had grown accustomed to for and, or I thought I, I got that with this episode. Uh, I think that's right. And I, I want to go deep into Cassian and Bix what we get there because I, I agree with you. That's kind of the emotional heart of the episode. Uh, we also get some really interesting other developments that I didn't expect. Yes. And that really played with the Lord in my head.

[00:04:40] And this week we're going to drop a, a holocron episode, a bonus episode for subscribers and season pass holders, uh, that will be on legends and there will be talk of Gorman on there. I will warn you ahead of time. We're going to talk about things that might happen in the season. So this may spoil you if you're, if you're not trying to figure out what's happening in the season. But this is a show that's like kind of part, mostly spoilers anyway, because it's a movie that we know what's happening with all the characters. We already know where it heads. Right.

[00:05:09] So I'm like, I think most people will be in for it. So I just went ahead and made the episode. Good. I look forward to listening to it. Yeah. We got legends lounge on Aaron from legends lounge. He does a whole podcast. On all the legends books. Nice. Nice. So what were your thoughts? Yeah, I think it was, it was a really, really great setup for this, this whole trilogy of episodes. Uh, I loved seeing, uh, Lonnie back. Yeah.

[00:05:37] I'm glad that he's doing his data drops with, with Luthan again. I like seeing Darth Luthan again. You know, we've, we've seen him mostly in his, in the first arc, we saw him mostly in his like fake fancy life. It's fancy life. Yeah. And here we see him just like ripped to shreds. Like I need answers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love a good, angry, stolen scars guard, a torture, stolen scars guard. He's really good in this. Yeah. He is so good in this.

[00:06:04] He is so good in this because he, like you said, in the previous drafts, we saw him in a different light. Mm-hmm . And here he brings this character to life in a different way. He does. That is just so amazing to watch. He does. And then the Gorman stuff is really interesting. All these politics, resistance. There's some really great line drops by, about Gorman with Mon Mothma and people on Gorman. I think we have a lot to talk about here. Do you have any other thoughts on your hot takes before we head in?

[00:06:35] Yeah. Just, um, several better watch out. What about Saw? You on Saw's side right now? I... He's a complicated guy. He is. He is. He's a complicated guy. I don't know how I feel about Saw. He is really, um, yeah, we'll talk about it, but he's a complicated guy. Yeah. He, uh, he sure is. He sure is.

[00:06:59] In every piece of media he's in, you're like, I want to side with you, but I don't know if I can. There's always that, but there's always this annoying feeling like, I really should. You know, I really shouldn't. All right. Well, why don't we get right into the episode then? Yeah. It sounds like we all have a lot to say about very specific things. Uh, Bix and Cassian, let's start with. Bix and Cassian have moved into a hideout on Coruscant where Bix continues to struggle with PTSD and Cassian is overcautious.

[00:07:28] Bix is still upset that Cassian killed a boy who saw her face and yearns for a sense of normalcy. Just when they get back into a routine, Luthen calls Cassian in for a mission on Gorman to get intel on Karo Rylons. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. Alicia will write it. Bix takes drugs to ease the pain at the end of the episode. So tell me, tell me about this Bix and Cassian relationship. Cause you see, you sound like you had a lot to say over there. Yeah. Watching it.

[00:07:57] I just, I was wondering when can we get Bix to a better place? Yeah. Maybe never. Maybe never. And I came to the realization that maybe, like you just said, maybe never, that she's not going to get to a better place. Um, and that's, that was a hard pill to swallow. Yeah. Watching the episode. Um, because you feel for her. I feel for her.

[00:08:25] And knowing the things that she's gone through just from season one to, you know, the first three drops last week. It's a lot. Yeah. It's a lot. And she has to deal with all of this while being a part of something that is supposed to be, you know, life altering on a grander scale on a macro level.

[00:08:54] But she's dealing with all this internal strife, internal struggles, internal grief. How does she give herself to the cause? How does she get herself to be able to, you know, fully invest in this rebellion, this revolution that her partner so wants her to be a part of? Yeah. In a way.

[00:09:23] It's just, I think she, she understands that like, she's not making out of this the same way. You know, she says, if I'm giving everything, I want to win. Right. You know, she says, if it's a war, it's not up to us who we save or who we lose. Yeah. And I think that's her rationalizing Brasso too. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's tough. It's tough.

[00:09:45] Now I wanted to bring in, you know, I've, I've talked about these books before and, and, you know, people who have been longtime listeners will either be like, oh, I remember that. Or they'll be eye rolling, but there's these books by Carol Gilligan. I recommend one called, it's a short one called, why does patriarchy persist? And it talks about the different scripts that men and women follow in grief.

[00:10:06] And men get very like insular and try to, you know, they, they lean more into like anger and control when they, when they're grieving and they try to like, you know, take charge of the situation. And women end up being, you know, you know, distracting themselves with caregiving with, and both of them are unhealthy scripts that, that prevent you from really experiencing the grief and moving past it.

[00:10:35] And I noticed Bix at one point is just like in the middle of the night, she's like, we got to change the windows. We got to clean up. We got to make this a home, right? Like that's, that's the way that she's trying to cope. That's the script she's following to try to escape her grief and not actually deal with it. And it's really interesting to see that. And then Cassian, who's like, I got to protect you. I'm going to kill the boy who saw your face. I'm going to, I'm going to, did he steal drugs, those drugs from the store? I couldn't tell. I think he did. I think he did.

[00:11:05] I think he did. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to do everything I can for you. I'm going to, you know, we can't go out. We get, you know, it's, it's very possessive and controlling. And I know he doesn't mean it to be that way. But it is that way, but it is that way, right? He is keeping her in a cage. I stand simply for her good, for her own good. Yeah. Right. And that's never a place you want to be. I'm doing something for your own good. Yep. Yep. You don't want to hear yourself say that line, right?

[00:11:35] Never. And that's the worst place you can be. And that's where he's at. And it's just really, it's fascinating to watch the two of them, you know, circle each other with this heaviness that they have for different reasons, you know?

[00:11:52] And just in my own, you know, journey through grief is something that you learn, you know, taking me many years to learn not to be the angry controlling, you know? And you don't fight it, right? You can't fight the grief and not let it wash over you. You have to. You have to.

[00:12:12] And I think Bix is trying to do that, but Cassian, with his, you know, wanting to help in his way, isn't really allowing her to do that. Yeah. I love when she goes, the mission is dinner. Like, you need to, like, zero in on this for a minute and stop always thinking about the next rebel mission. Right. Right. Need to chill. Yeah. Take a breath. Take it easy.

[00:12:41] Because even with everything that I'm going through, I need to take a breath as well. And I want to do that. And you're not letting me do that. When Bix started saying, I keep seeing his face, who did you think she was talking about? Because I thought she was talking about the guy she killed on, uh, Mina Rao. Don't. Trying to assault her. For a minute, I was like, is she, or Dr. Gorse, like, one of those two. I thought she was talking about one of those two. Like, either from terror or guilt. Like, I'd never killed a guy before or something like that.

[00:13:12] Um, you know, even if it's somebody who was a villain to you, who was doing something awful, trying to do something awful to you. It's still, like, different to, and when he goes like, oh, it fades. I thought that, again, I thought that Cassian was trying to, like, coach her through, like, her first kill. And it was a twist for me to hear, why'd you have to kill that boy? Because he saw your face. Yeah. I thought it was Gorse. Yeah. I could have seen that. I thought it was Gorse.

[00:13:40] And then when, when that line drops, it's like, oh, shit. Yeah. Wait, what? Because has she ever seen him at his, like, stone cold killer phase? I don't know. I don't think so. I think now she has. No, she has now. Yeah. But before, you know, this season, these, these, this series of events, no, I don't believe that she had. Yeah. So when that line drops, it's just like, oh, what did you do, bro?

[00:14:09] I think she understands, like, what, what Cassian has given up to be in the rebellion now. Like, he's given up a lot of his morality, too. Hmm. And she's asking herself, is, is this what she wants to do? Right. At this point? You know, do I want to go down this, this road? Right. But she's stuck, too, right? Because now the, the Empire, if they found her, would absolutely send her right back to Gorse. Yeah.

[00:14:36] Have her, have her tortured until she gives up Cassian's location. And it's, it's so, you know, weird, not, not weird, but just so. And you say that Cassian kind of has it like in a cage, right? And it's true. He kind of has her in a cage, but the situation has her in a cage as well. You know what I mean?

[00:15:03] It's like, you go out and you're worried about being spotted. You're worried about somebody recognizing you. Yeah. So you have all these thoughts in your mind, and yet she's still willing, she still needs normalcy. She still needs to be able to just go to the grocery store, get some, some things to cook, just to be outside. Yeah. You know, for her to heal, she still needs that.

[00:15:32] Even given what could transpire, it's still a need of hers. And for him to one, downplay it or not want her to do it and then acquiesce and go along with it. And then just totally like, I thought he was going to punch the guy in his face, the man at the grocery store. I'm like, yo, chill. It's like, chill.

[00:16:03] And she looked at him. Yeah. He has none at this point. And she looked at him like, yo, what are you doing? Like, yeah. Yeah. We just have the peppers and go. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, man, relax. You got to relax. Yep. And then on the other hand, he sees what can happen. He knows what can happen. Right. To people. He was in the jail for, you know. Right. Because he was walking around. Because he was walking around. Yep.

[00:16:33] So he has that memory and he has those experiences that he's trying to protect her from. And what he's actually doing is not helpful at all. Yeah. It's tough. And now she's using substances to help her get through the day. Alicia actually wrote in with a possibility for what it is, if you want to hear this, Lord Drop. Yeah. Um, there was, there's an article from inverse.

[00:16:59] She sent me that, uh, that says, uh, Vutalamine is a drug from the role-playing game, star Wars age of rebellion. And that book introduced a new substance, Vutalamine and anti-anxiety medicine that calmed the user's mind for a 24 hour period. But it was highly addictive and could cause suicidal thoughts, paranoia and impairment and judgment. Oh, I hope that's not what she's using. But wouldn't it fit? It does. It would.

[00:17:27] But I pray that's not what she's using because that could portend a, uh, a very bad ending. I hope that's not what she's using. That's dark. Thank you, Alicia, for the lore, Bob. It has depressed us. You know, you know, something else I forgot to mention is, you know, when Cassian's talking about killing the boy, he, he says like three times in a row, it had to be done. It had to be done. It had to be done. Like he's telling himself, right? Yeah. Not just Bix.

[00:17:55] He's telling himself, like, I had to kill that boy. But I say boy. They keep saying boy. It definitely was a child. Yeah. A child soldier. At least like a teenager. But he had to, he has to convince himself to. He has to convince himself to. He has to be the thing that Luthen wants him to be. And that Luthen is, right? Like Luthen says, I burn my soul to see a sunrise for a sunrise I'll never see. That I'll never see.

[00:18:24] And, and yeah, I think Luthen's like anybody on my team has to be on board for that. And you have to be willing to do things a la Saw if, if this really is going to work. You have to be willing to go down that path, that dark path. And it's, um, it is so different watching these characters from the characters in the original trilogy.

[00:18:54] Right. You know, it is such a stark difference between what this universe was before Luke and what it is while we're watching Luke. Because right now, even if I didn't know how it all ends, I would not be hopeful for anything. Yeah. Watching them right now in this moment.

[00:19:23] So how can they purely on faith, you know, purely on faith, be hopeful that what they're doing, the terrible deeds that they must do are going to bear some fruit at the end.

[00:19:42] You know, I, I think I said to Marilyn last week, like this whole show and Rogue One, it all proves that like the heroes that you see only get a chance to be heroes because of the, the dirty work of all the people that came before. Yes.

[00:19:59] Like the, you know, the, I, I'm reminded of the conversation between Mon Mothma and Luthan last, last trilogy where basically she says like, oh, that's, that's, I don't, I don't do things like that. And he goes, well, how nice for you. Yes. And, and he's basically like, you get to do the, because somebody else does the dirty work. Yep. And just like Luke Skywalker can swoop in.

[00:20:26] Luke Skywalker never gets to the Death Star without this rebellion. Exactly. Without these people making these type of choices. Right. Completely like moral compromises everywhere. Yeah. This is, this is really good storytelling. All right, let's take a quick break. And when we get back, we'll talk about Cyril.

[00:20:58] Are you looking to get more out of the rebellion, but don't want a recurring subscription? Check out our and or season pass linked in the show notes, where you'll get bonus holocron episodes diving deep into the lore behind the series. Alicia's rebel squadron radio briefing you on the timeline and ad free versions of our coverage of seasons one and two. All that for a one-time purchase of $10. Whether you're with us for the season or the long haul, welcome to the rebellion and may the force be with you.

[00:21:36] And we're back to talk about Cyril, the honeypot. I saw somebody call him a honeypot on the, on the. I think it was David. I think it was David. Yeah, I think so. Okay. Well, thanks David for giving up, giving me the title of this segment. Cause I thought that was hilarious. Cyril Karn has been reassigned to the Bureau of Standards field office on Gorman. There he takes verbal beatings from his mother on the comm while acting vulnerable to attract the Gorman front. They invite Cyril to a public meeting, which he gleefully reports to Deidre.

[00:22:06] At the meeting, Cyril listens to the testimonials of Gorman activists and citizens who have been hurt by the empire. The Gorman front asks him what they're building in the new annex. Cyril, Cyril, Cyril. That was honestly though, like I, I had a feeling he was involved with Deidre still. Yeah, so did I. Something going on, but like the way they played it out was brilliant.

[00:22:32] They did like really drawing the Gorman front to him. You know what I mean? Really. And they got me. Like I thought he was actually just being targeted and monitored and he was going to be the way that they find out what's happening. But no, it's the opposite. I didn't, I never thought so. You weren't tricked? No. I'll be the stupid one then.

[00:22:52] I suspected, I didn't know it was Deidre, but I really suspected that he was not playing fair by the Gormans. Like he just, he just doesn't strike me as that type of guy. Yeah. He just, I don't know. There's something about him that tells me that yes, he, he will sell people out. Do you think though, that he was a little bit moved at the testimonials? No. No. No.

[00:23:22] I think he was a little bit. He's a great actor. Okay. Like the character is a great actor? No, Cyril. That's what I mean. The character. Yes. The character. Yes. He's a great actor. I think he was acting in every meeting that he had with the Gorman. Okay. All right. I don't know if he's that smart. No, but look at his mom and his relationship with her.

[00:23:48] Like this is someone who probably had to hide his feelings and emotions for a long time. That's true. His mom has trained him to suppress things. Yes. Yes. To never show who you really are. Don't become too much of an individual, Cyril. Yeah. That's what she says to him. Yes. Like, you know, she's really done a job on him. Yeah.

[00:24:12] And I think in his, you know, talks with the Gormans, I just saw all of that. And I said, no, I don't believe him. I don't trust him. I don't believe him. I don't. Yeah. And then we get the phone call or the holo call with Deidre. And you go, okay. All right. It's all together. Yeah. Yeah. I want to talk about the Gorman front a little bit.

[00:24:40] So this is something, this is a legend subject that we go into on the, on the podcast this weekend. So if you want spoilers on what we think might happen, definitely check that out. But we did get a whole lore drop here that they, they are keeping in that Tarkin killed 500 Gormans in the town square, 18 or 19 BBY. So 16 years ago, I think they said, and this is three, three BBY. Right. Right.

[00:25:08] And, uh, so, so we have confirmation that, that there has, have already been war crimes on Gorman, that they've already, uh, stopped the supply chains. and they're an import economy that can only, you know, it's kind of like the real world, like Iceland, right? Like they just need to import all their food. And so I just wanted to call that out that we know things have already happened. Things that we thought might happen in the series have already happened.

[00:25:38] And so I don't know particularly what's going to happen next on Gorman. Yes. I just think that the Gormans themselves, I don't know if they truly grasp the danger that they're in. Because for me, this felt like it was just very political.

[00:26:06] Like if we could speak to the right people, get the right things in order, then maybe we can make some changes. Like I don't know what they're hoping to accomplish by getting Cyril to their side. And why would you trust him? I don't know if they trust him. I think that they think he's weak. You don't think so? I think they think he's weak.

[00:26:36] And if they ask questions and they're like, none of this is illegal, they think they can like get him to mess up. I don't think they trust him. Otherwise, they won't be surveilling him. Okay. I do think that there, in normal circumstances, he would have folded. Okay. I think that Dedra is his rock that keeps him on the street. From folding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think he alone could resist this whole thing. That's interesting. I didn't think about that.

[00:27:08] And, you know, Alicia wrote in with some stuff about the dialogue. And I'm going to get into that in a minute. But I just, I was moved by the Gorman testimonials. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Man, look, we don't talk about real life politics, current politics right now. But, like, come on. Let's go. I mean, but this is, this is. If you don't see the parallels, then just turn on the news for a minute. Yeah.

[00:27:36] If you don't see the parallels, I don't know what you're watching. Quite honestly. I think, you know, you're talking about what are their goals. And part of it is just, I think that there's a divide on Gorman. I think the institutionalists on Gorman, and we see this in the real world all the time, right? The divide between institutionalists and progressives, I want to say. And the institutionalists on this planet are all into appeasement right now. They're like, let's behave with the emperor. And we see that with Mon Mothma. We'll get to that in a bit.

[00:28:06] Let's behave with the emperor. Let's not piss him off. Let's not vote against him. And he'll stop messing with us. They're wrong because he still wants their resources, but they don't know that. They don't know that. And then you have this Gorman front, and I don't know their end goal, but they certainly don't like the empire. I think what they would do if they find out that that is a weapons facility is they'll figure out how to sabotage it. But if it's just a regular annex, they'll leave it alone.

[00:28:38] If it's just storage, offices, whatever. I think they don't really care. More tourists, fine. Or more people living on here and spending their money, fine. But I don't know. I think that would be short-sighted. Yeah, but I think there is a cost analysis to be done for how much you want to sabotage the empire if they're not putting any kind of weapons facility there. Okay.

[00:29:07] And how much do you want to draw this massive military on you? Okay. Fair enough. I just think, as a realist on this, I think you have to consider, would it be worth destroying an office building? You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. These are people who have already had food blockades and who have already had a massacre when they protested peacefully.

[00:29:34] So you can't—I think that's part of the reason why I'm saying that you can't really go down this track of appeasement. No, I totally agree. But we also have more information than they do. Oh, yeah. That is true. Okay. Fair enough. That's true. I don't know. I find this a really tricky situation, and I'm glad that we're seeing this. Do you want to talk a little bit about the dialects?

[00:30:04] Because Alicia had a whole spiel she wrote for me. Yeah. Go ahead. You start off with that, because they all sounded so French to me. Well, that's the interesting thing. So here's from Alicia. From the official list of production notes for this episode, dialect coach Marina Tindal created the gore language, but unlike other Star Wars written languages like Orabesh, based on Galactic Basic, gore is only translatable if you understand its spoken component.

[00:30:32] Two versions of the written Gorman language were created, Gorel or High Gore and Dixian or Logore, named after graphic designers L. McKee and Lauren Dix. Yalisha adds, I think Logore is what we heard the spies speaking in the beginning. It sounds like it's based on Germanic languages. High gore, I assume, is what they were speaking at the meeting, and it sounds more like it's based on French.

[00:30:56] That makes gore an interesting parallel to the English language, as modern English is an evolution of the fact that back in the day, French was the language of the nobility and peasants spoke a Germanic earlier English. Right. This is why the core of modern English words, common words in modern English are Germanic, but loftier vocabulary, actually the majority of our vocabulary, is French slash Latin. The linguist who constructed Gore seems to have gone for something similar. That's fascinating to me.

[00:31:23] I mean, this is incredible. Yeah. Yeah, right? I mean, this is incredible. I'm just here, like, writing my outline, and Alicia's like, here's all this genius stuff that you can just read. It's just really incredible that, A, that Alicia was able to put that together for us so nicely, and B, that they even came up with this for the show. Yeah. I mean, are they ever going to use this again? Probably not. Not. Right. Exactly.

[00:31:54] Exactly. And they did it. Conlinging is the coolest thing. These people who make languages up for Virginian movies. Yes. I love it. This is incredible stuff. Any other thoughts on Gorman and what's going on there? What do you think about the rebels, like the Gorman front? Do you think they stand a chance? You like the characters? No. No. I don't think they stand a chance at all. I don't think they stand a chance. Go on. I just don't.

[00:32:22] They seem to be, to me, in their meeting with Cyril, just in over their heads. Mm-hmm. That's what it felt like to me. That's what it felt like. Yeah. I don't know that they, again, we do have more knowledge, more information than they do.

[00:32:47] But I can't see it going well for them. And they don't have any experience with subterfuge. Mm-hmm. They don't have any experience with rebellions. They don't have any experience with fighting propaganda, so it seems.

[00:33:07] And so I'm really just not sure that the Gorman front, as it exists right now for this episode, can actually do something. Yeah. I will push back on one thing you said. I think that you have experience with this a little bit. Because of that Tarkin massacre 18, 16 years ago. Okay. I think they have had a cycle of peaceful protests. They've had a blockade. They've had an increased police presence.

[00:33:37] Like, they have been ramping up to this. Okay. Okay. But I think we just don't know enough in this first episode of what they do. I don't know how big this organization is. I don't know the resources. Right. Ryland, though, Cassian's going to go spy on him. He's going to go, like, take his measure. What do you think he's going to find? As he should. As he should. I think he'll find somebody who needs help, quite honestly. For sure. I think you'll find somebody who needs help.

[00:34:05] You know, they need to bring in, you know, some experienced people. Because I just don't know. Again, I just, but I just can't trust Cyril. Like, on the base, just at base levels, the guy just gives me the creeps. And it's not somebody I would, you know, he would talk to me. He would say things. And I would look at everything that he says with a side eye. He's been broken since birth from his mother.

[00:34:35] Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know how, you know, I don't think I would, if I were in their shoes, that I would necessarily rush to try to recruit him. Yeah. I think that's right. So we'll see how it turns out for them. Yeah. All right. Well, we'll wait till next episode for that. Let's go to the war room.

[00:35:03] Part of gas holds his usual round table. Displeased that after 12 raids on three planets, they still have no solid lead on access. Lonnie Young bails out his colleague here by sharing that they don't have enough intake resources for all the arrests. Which part of gas plans to address with better intake. Dedra offers here help find help in finding access, which he declines.

[00:35:26] Later, Lonnie reports to Luthen that Dedra is secretly assigned to Gorman and an impatient Luthen wants to know the end game. Yeah. Can I, can I just bring up one thing? Like go ahead. Lonnie, who is secretly, you know, a rebel. Yes. He says, we're arresting too many people. And the solution that part of gas comes up with is not let's arrest fewer people. It's let's streamline our intake. Arrest. Mm-hmm.

[00:35:56] Monster. Again, true to the real world, right? Yes. Let's not figure out how to have fewer people in prison. Let's just build more prisons. Build a bigger one. Right. Or send them somewhere that has a big one. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What did you think of this, this Knights of the Round Table? I thought it was fascinating to see how afraid everyone is at being called out. Like they all-

[00:36:24] At least with Vader, you know, they want to, they don't want to be force choked. Part of gas, what does he have on them? Yeah. But they know like if they say the wrong thing, the slightest hint, that's the ass. That's it. Mm-hmm. Career's over. Yeah. Career's over. They might be over. You might be disappeared. You might be disappeared. So everyone in that meeting, pins and needles, praying that they are not the one who catches the eye of part of gas.

[00:36:54] Yeah. And that is so frightening. To be in a situation where the slightest hiccup, the slightest hiccup or just the thought that you hiccup. You know what I mean? You don't even have to hiccup. Just the thought. Did you just hiccup? Right. We'll talk about this later. And Zedra needing to take so much shit because everyone thinks she got demoted.

[00:37:20] I mean, we talked about in season one, like this woman in the workplace, like the competent one in the room, like constantly having to answer to these incompetent men. And this season, it's even worse for her because she's gotten a promotion that she has to secretly treat as a demotion. Yep. Or publicly treated as a demotion. Oh my God. That must be so painful for her, especially when she offers here. He's like, well, I got offered this because they don't see glory.

[00:37:50] Exactly. And I'm like, you got offered this because... Because they took her off the project, bro. Right. Right. Because they needed her for something more important. And you know what? Yeah. I don't feel bad for her. No, me either. She's an evil person. Yeah. Like absolutely a vile person. She's not a good person. But at the same time, you can like... No. See where to be empathetic. No. No empathy.

[00:38:18] I can be empathetic for a scene and then be like, okay, but you are a terrible person. No empathy. I have nothing. Zero. Okay. But I do think that people can see experiences they themselves have had. Absolutely. In Deidre. And I think that's where the empathy comes in, right? And I think that's where it teaches us like even these villains have to go through the same nonsense of patriarchy that real world women have to go through. Absolutely. And you know why Cyril is the way that he is.

[00:38:49] Mm-hmm. We don't much know why she's the way she is. Yeah. Outside of her life and the workplace, right? Some people are just big fans of evil. You know? You know? Dr. Doom, Thanos, they just love the evil. Deidre. She just loves the evil. Big fan. Yeah. Big fan. Okay. Huge. I'll take that. That's it.

[00:39:18] Did you like Luthan being like, you know, I don't have time for three months again. And it's interesting to watch his posture change with Lonnie, right? And Lonnie goes, you used to tell me to wait. He goes, you know, we don't have time anymore. That time, the time for waiting is over, I think he says. Yeah. I think it puts Luthan in a position that I haven't seen him in a lot of, like scrambling almost. Yeah. Desperation. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:47] And why is that though? Well, he 99% had Tay killed. Oh, yeah. That guy's dead. I almost said Tay Zonday, and then I realized that was Chocolate Rain. That's the first Tay I think of is the one who made Chocolate Rain. Where do I go with that? Still a bop. Where do I go with that? Still a banger. You know?

[00:40:16] We can still talk about him putting his face away from the microphone after every line. Everybody's like, why is he doing that? Okay. That's a throwback. That is more than a throwback. So anyway, Tay, in this show, he's dead. I'm like 99% sure he's dead. Yeah, he's gone. He's gone. But again, it's more about Luthan and his, like you said, desperation in that scene.

[00:40:46] He's almost frothing at the mouth, like, tell me what's going on. You know? Yeah. Yeah. He's always in control. You know? He's always in control. Even when he's growling at you. Yeah, he's in control. And this is one time that I felt that he was not in control. So what is happening? Yeah. I think something is up. He doesn't like not knowing, right? He doesn't like not knowing the end game of Gorman.

[00:41:14] And he doesn't know exactly why they want something on Gorman. Right. It just seems like an oddity to him that they want. They want fine fabric, it seems like. But they don't. I mean, those outfits, you know, you got to get the uniform somehow. Right. Right. But yeah, just, you know, he. And that was the thing that one of the major points that stuck with me with this episode

[00:41:40] was seeing Luthan like completely almost out of his depth. Mm-hmm. And that is not a place that, you know, I recognize Luthan. Yeah. At all. At all. Yeah. And him telling Cassian like, nope, you don't bring Bix. You go and you handle this. Yeah. That's another thing. He's really, really starting to like crack down. Yeah. And also, but he has to know that Cyril's on planet.

[00:42:11] How aware is he of Cyril though? Or is he more looking at Dedra? Because he's definitely interested in Dedra. Yes. But Cyril, I don't think he takes him seriously. You don't think so. Cyril. But knowing the history with Cassian and Cyril. So why would you send Cassian to Gorman? I don't know. He might just not know he's there because this is the Bureau of Standards.

[00:42:38] This might be like an honestly pretty good undercover thing for Cyril. Okay. Because that's the thought that I had. Yeah. No, that's a good question. Why is he going? Why is he sending him there? That's a great question. Knowing that, you know, he has a history with one of the major players there. And he's sending him there to ostensibly meet with the rebels. Yeah? Yeah. So, and they're meeting with Cyril. Yeah.

[00:43:04] I just, I'm thinking that Luthan just doesn't care enough about Cyril. Okay. He's like, I have enough players to track. The serious one is Dedra. I'm tracking her. Yeah. Okay. All right. Anything, any other thoughts on this scene? No, I'm fascinated with Gorman culture now. Yeah. That's the only thing that I, that I really want to dig into a little bit more. Yeah. Hopefully we got more in episodes five and six. Yeah.

[00:43:35] All right. Let's take one more break and then we'll come back and finish the episode. We're back. Mon Mothma's here.

[00:44:02] On Coruscant, Mon Mothma lobbies senators to vote to get rid of the poured. After pleading with all the senators, she can't even get the Gorman senator Dossi to join her. I mean. You're shaking your head. You got, you got to talk for the people. It's audio only. I know. I'm sorry. I, okay. I am not a fan of Mon. Mm-hmm. Let me just state that clearly.

[00:44:33] Um, I'm a fan of who she becomes. Mm-hmm. But I'm not a fan of how she's becoming, who she becomes. Can you tell me why? I, there's something off-putting about her for me. Um, I think I'm, uh, I've been, I did not enjoy seeing her at home and Shandrilla. Mm-hmm.

[00:44:56] Um, that entire, uh, scene with the wedding, her family, um, those dynamics of her, you know, the dancing at the end where she's, you know, um, presumably thinking about everything that's, that's happening. Mm-hmm. That's kind of left a, uh, a bad taste for me. Really? It has. I thought that scene was awesome because she's, like, so stressed out and she's just taking it out.

[00:45:26] Yeah. And she's taking it out on the dance floor while people are dying. Yeah. And I, I couldn't divert those two thoughts. Mm-hmm. But, like, at the same time, doesn't she need to keep up that appearance to not have, like, her assets frozen? And then be unable to fund the rebellion? I'm not saying you're wrong. I, and I get it.

[00:45:50] But it was just, and just like, and even seeing Luthien and with his, with his perfect hair from last week was just a bit too much for me. I couldn't take it. Well, he's ordering hits while he's doing that anyway. I just couldn't take it. So there's something about, you know, working within the system that I guess she is trying to do at this point where,

[00:46:15] because, again, of the biases that I have knowing where the story goes, I can't, I just don't like it. Like, she knows what's happening. She's privy to everything that's, that Luthien is privy to. She, she understands where the emperor is, right?

[00:46:48] Mm-hmm. Getting, trying to get the senators on board at this point, I don't know how you try to do that. I don't know. To me, this is, this is the kind of thing of like a rebellion needs to be fought on all fronts. Right? Like, you need the political angle. You need the, the rebel angle. You, you need the people on the ground. You need the people funding it. Like, you need a lot of different skill sets to run this rebellion. I think you, I think you do need the, the funding. And I think you do need the fighters.

[00:47:19] And I think where, where are the politics in this though? Aside, apart from trying to bring people together. And I don't think you need to be a politician to bring people together in order to fight oppression. So where do the politicians, what role is it that they're trying to, what, what is, what are they trying to accomplish at this point? That's my question.

[00:47:48] I think part of it is, like I said, I think if Mon quits the Senate, I think her assets get frozen. Is she because of Target? She's, she's suspicious. And she's been outspoken against the Senator. Once she gets out of the public eye, she's done for. Like the public eye protects her. Okay. You know, if she, if she just disappeared from the Senate floor, there's riots. If she disappears from Chandrila, maybe not. Hmm. I don't know. I, I just think that she, she does need to put up this front.

[00:48:18] And if she seemed to be so active in these causes of like getting rid of the board, I think because she's so public about it, it's almost a shield because they're like, oh, look at her. Oh, she's so cute. She's, she's trying to pass all these bills that to stop us. We're never going to listen anyway, even if she does pass it. Like they need to see her as not a threat. And I think as long as she has these failing causes, she's not a threat. Interesting. Okay.

[00:48:46] The board, by the way, I just want to remind people if they don't remember from last season, this was passed. Uh, this was, um, in response to the Aldani heist. Right. And this was the public order resentencing directive that was, you know, they, they up all the, uh, all, all the attacks become class one offenses and there's outstanding fines and levies and there's much heavier sentences. It's very bad. It's very bad.

[00:49:14] So maybe it's not so much that I have a problem with mon, but I do have a problem with the politicians. Mm. I, I, yeah, I totally agree with you. Like the Senator. I think, I think that's, that's my, that's my issue.

[00:49:31] So maybe it's not specific to her, but just in general, where are, and she's part of this, this group as well as being, you know, very active and trying to bring down the empire. But she's maintaining these, this, this facade, like you said. Um, and I never thought about it as maintaining it to, for her own protection. Yeah. But her own protection is also the rebellions funding protection. Right.

[00:50:01] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I do think that there, there is a level of, I need to paint this picture of myself as it's like whiny Senator who's going to honestly, always be fighting for the causes that nobody else will pick up. And like, if they see her as not a threat, then she's not a threat to them. Yeah. I didn't consider that. That's a good point. I think she's brilliant. I think she's one of my favorite characters. That's why I'm going so hard to defend her. No, that's fine. That's great. Yeah.

[00:50:28] Because you've given me a new perspective to look at her as, and I wasn't looking at it that way at all. Yeah. Look, I think if she could skip the parties, she would. Like, she didn't want her daughter to get married then. She basically pleaded with her daughter not to get married. Right. In episode three. And, um, I, I, I think that she just needs to keep the appearance going. And she've also, I want to, I want to say about the politicians, she've Palpatine, very good manipulator. Like he, you know, you watch clone wars rebels. Yes.

[00:50:58] He's very good at making people think that they have a voice and he's very good at like the semblance of democracy. Right. And so I do think that these senators think they have a level of power that they don't, they don't have. Right. He's just really good at manipulating people. You know, this is how democracy dies with thunderous applause. I watched, um, revenge of the Sith. I went to the theater on Sunday. Oh, you did. You. Okay, cool. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:26] Right before we recorded our wheel of time feedback. Yeah. That's, that's awesome. And I went to the theater and I, and I saw it in theaters and I was like, damn, first of all, Star Wars is so much better in theaters. I wish, I wish they did more of these, but you know, the, the, just watching Palpatine manipulate. Brilliant. Yeah. He's Sith, right? He's Sith. And, but he's like the smartest Sith of all life. Yeah, he is. He really is. He really is.

[00:51:52] But God, just, it was just so, you know, I, I just want someone to step up and say the thing. You know what I mean? And then disappear. And just say the thing. Just step up and say the thing, man. And again, it's because I know the story. I get that. But I still really want that to happen.

[00:52:20] When somebody get up on that center floor and say the damn thing, you know? But I guess what I would say is you need somebody to be, it takes a long time of people doing the dirty work before somebody can get up and say the thing. Yes. And it matters. Yes. And we're not there yet. No, I totally agree. I totally see that. I totally see that. You know? But it's just like, so it's just gnawing at me. Yeah. Like I need it.

[00:52:47] I need someone to just call this shit out for what it is. You know? Not the doublespeak. Not the, you know, not coded language. Not any of those things. Just be clear and frank with what is going on. What we're actually seeing. Yeah. You know, what they're actually seeing, I should say. Speaking of real world parallels, we have Montang, are we finding criminals or making them? Making them.

[00:53:16] That's a great line. I mean, real take on the criminal justice system in the real world. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. End in the empire. You know? That's a great line because that's exactly what they're doing. Right. You know? Whether they're making people do acts that others would consider criminal or that just, you know, trumping up, pun is intended, charges on folks. You know? Yeah. I mean, I just think of Cassian, right?

[00:53:46] Just picked up on the beach. In the wrong place, wrong time. Doing nothing. Doing nothing. Hmm. And honestly, like, we saw that this kind of over arresting doesn't even help them stay secure because they didn't even know Cassian was in prison. Yeah, exactly. They lost track of him. Yep. Yep. Crazy. And the conviction numbers are going up, especially on Gorman.

[00:54:12] Yeah, that was so—they're so good at this, you know, feeding falsehoods and making people believe something that is not actually happening. Right. So I'm wondering how much do people support the empire at this—like, legit support.

[00:54:39] Not because they're afraid, but because they believe this shit. They believe in this. That's a question that I think we should—you know, that begs to be answered about this universe. How much do people actually buy into and believe what is happening around them? Yeah. Because I think that's a fascinating thing. That's a great question. I don't know the answer. Yeah, we don't know.

[00:55:08] I do think, you know, outer rim—a lot of planets are just like—and you see this around the world today in fascist and totalitarian regimes. Mm-hmm. Just this idea of, like, you keep the country poor enough and they're just trying to survive. Like, they don't have time to think about what kind of government they have. They just want food on the table. Right. And I think that's how the outer rim is. Yeah, but until, you know, food on the table turns into, why can't we have food on the table? Right.

[00:55:38] I need food on the table. I just want food on the table. And then all of a sudden it's, who has food on the table? Yeah. And why don't I? And that's how it all starts. I do think that totalitarian regimes like the Empire rely on keeping people just poor enough to be tired and working all the time but not questioning. And also, you know, they work because they give the people a target, an other, right?

[00:56:08] To villainize and to blame. To don't look at us, look at them. Right? And I guess for the Emperor, for Palpatine, it was, you know, the Jedi. Right. Right. They are the reason that the entire galaxy is the way that it is. Their ineptitude. What they have done, what they haven't done.

[00:56:37] Look at them. Don't look at what I'm doing. Look at them. And... Well, you turned them into generals, right? Like, he made them... He tied them directly to the Clone Wars. Directly. And he made it so that people saw them, one, as threatening these war generals, and two, as tied to this forever war that nobody wanted. That nobody asked for. Mm-hmm. And nobody could remember why. There's no secret that George Lucas was truing a metaphor for the analogy for the Iraq War when he made the prequel trilogy.

[00:57:07] So, it's really, you know, it's amazing to me that we haven't, like, the question that I'm asking hasn't been answered. At least, I haven't seen the answer. Maybe it's out there, but I haven't seen the answer. How much do people really want this? There definitely are true believers. There's other... Like, the people who work for the Empire, largely true believers, I think. But... I mean... And there are some who aren't. But I think largely they are.

[00:57:36] I think the people, let's say, like, the folks that were in the meeting with Pottergas, right? And, you know, yeah. They have no choice but to believe in this at this point. Right. You know, there's no going back now. But, you know, for, like, Cyril's mom, she's a believer. Yeah, I think so. This lack of individuality, like, that's straight out by her talk. That's straight out through the handbook. She's a true believer.

[00:58:07] You know? And if she had her druthers, you know, Cyril would be a true believer. And whether he is or not is not the question. I just think he's just... He... I think Cyril would be whatever he needs to be. True believer or not. Right? Which is what makes him so dangerous and creepy to me. Yeah. But... Little chameleon over there. Yeah. Beady little eyes. So, yeah. Just...

[00:58:36] I would love to get a take on that. Yeah. That's a great question. I'm going to make Alicia answer that question. Yeah, we should. You should. She knows more about Star Wars than I do. So, I just, you know, I just rely on her for a lot of this stuff. Yes. Can we talk about Dakar? Yeah, let's do it. Saw Gerrera receives a large piece of equipment from Will. Here he is.

[00:59:05] The machine uses radonium, which can burn inside and out. Will is told to teach the mechanic all variations and that he cannot leave the next day as agreed. So, what is this machine exactly? Do you know? I don't know. But I do know Saw is nuts. Oh, he is. Oh, my God. Just the way he talks. Like, the line delivery. Absolutely amazing. Forrest Whitaker is great. His raspy voice. Amazing. He's great.

[00:59:35] Forrest Whitaker. He is great. But he is insane. This man, I don't know what he's gone through in his life to get him to this point. Clone Wars, he was fighting and his sister died. His sister was like the level-headed one. That's right. She died in the fight. And then there's a whole Clone Wars arc on that. And he just constantly, I think he was just radicalized by that. He never really recovered. It has to be more than that, though.

[01:00:05] He's had to see much more than that. Well, yeah. But I mean, I'm saying like that was the catalyst. That's the catalyst. Yeah, that was the catalyst for him going and being nuts. And he was just kind of like always a loose cannon. But he's so, he's a very dangerous man. If Cyril's dangerous, this guy is really dangerous. Because you don't know, you know, it's like he'll flip a coin and decide whether you are useful or you're not.

[01:00:33] And if you're not useful, man, he's going to take you out. He sure is. He's going to take you out. So I am, you know, whenever Forrest Whitaker is on screen, I'm happy. You know, so don't get me wrong. But whenever Saw is on screen, I'm fearful for someone's life. Yeah. And that's what's brilliant about this show, though, is that like there are good and bad people and every shade in between. Yes. On both sides.

[01:01:03] Yes. Yes. Maybe mostly on the rebel side. Yeah. The Imperials have fewer good people. But even there, you have like the secret Imperials that are rebels, you know. Yeah, but we haven't met any yet, so. Well, in the first episode. Oh, yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. We had Cassian's little bit. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah. Well, we don't know where she ended up, so. Yeah, hopefully not too bad a punishment, but it probably was.

[01:01:33] You gave the keys to him? What? Yikes. Gorse, where are you? Yeah, oh my gosh. So Dakar, Alicia tells me, is the primary resistance base in the fight against the First Order in the sequel trilogy as seen in The Force Awakens. So this is a planet we've seen before in film. And Redonium, she sent me a whole article about it. It is the, it was a plot point in Arcs of the Clone Wars and Rebels.

[01:02:02] It is Redonium, also known, I'm just from the Wookieepedia. Redonium, also known as Rido for short, was a volatile starship fuel, highly explosive. It was dangerous to see, and its fumes were harmful to human health. It could also, and then it lists the planets available on. But yeah, it's just really dangerous. It's a dangerous type of fuel. Interesting. Yeah. And that looked like a reactor of some kind, but like, what does it do?

[01:02:29] I thought it was, at first I thought it was like part of an engine or something, but. Yeah, that or a bomb or something. But I don't think it's a bomb because it wouldn't have like that many modes. Right. Right. Yeah. All variations. And Saw has it, so it can't be good. Like it has to be something destructive. Yeah. And Will, I think, is still working for Luthien, like same as Cassian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's trained well. He's not giving up who he works for. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:03:01] And Saw just doesn't want to play by the rules. He's like, no, you'll tell me who you work for. Eventually. Mm-hmm. Eventually, no matter how I get it, I'm going to get it. Yep. So, yeah, Saw is just like, as soon as you see him, you know something's up. Yeah. You know something's up. Yeah, there's not a lot to talk about this scene. Just Saw is nuts. That's it. That's what I'm saying. He's the ultimate wild card. Yeah. I feel badly for Will, though.

[01:03:29] I feel really badly for Will. He's stuck now. Yeah, Will might. We might not have Will for long. That's what I'm saying. Poor Will. Poor one out for Will tonight, everybody. Yeah, because he might not be here. Yeah. Well, I think we did the episode, you know. Wow. I'm efficient on these outlines. Let me tell you something. I was like, if we're doing three episodes a week on this, doing one-hour podcasts.

[01:03:59] Well, you hit it on the nose. This was great. I'm trying. I'm trying. This was good. This was good. Any other thoughts on the episode? No. Just, you know, again, it was just good stuff from Cassian and Bix. Great character work all around. And this is the Andor that I wanted. And I'm glad that we got back to it. We're here. We did it. Well, thanks, Sean, for being part of my squadron this week. I think you're on next week, too, with somebody?

[01:04:29] I think I'm with Alicia next week. Okay. Yeah, thanks. That'll be fun. We'll see. You get to trade people around. I tried to do it so that nobody was together twice. It didn't end up working out. But I did my best. I did my best. You did a great job. This is awesome. All right. This is great. Well, I had a lot of fun talking to you. So did I. I had fun. I just want to mention what we're doing on the network quick. You and Alicia just finished Daredevil? We did finish Daredevil. So everybody go check that out. Season Ender.

[01:04:58] We had Luke on there with us as well. So that was pretty cool. Yeah, we're going to get into Thunderbolt pretty soon, which comes out this weekend. So be on the lookout for that possibly next week. And we're also going to, you know, we might dive into Sinners. So, yeah. Yeah, I can't get out of my head that that's a series, and I know it's not. What? But in my head, it's a series. Dude. Can't get it out of my head.

[01:05:28] It's a great. Just, yeah. And you just did the Wheel of Time with us? Yeah, we did the Wheel of Time, which was a lot of fun. Yeah. You are a non-book reader perspective. Yes. Yes. Other than that. And I apologize for my, if anyone, you know. There were some hateful things that I said about some people. You're fine. You're fine. If you're not going to tell people to kick rocks, why are you even here? You know? Although you didn't tell anybody tonight. No, no. I told you. I didn't have anyone to kick rocks into that. All right.

[01:05:57] No rocks were harmed in the process of this podcast. Not a one. Not a one. And check out our Last of Us coverage. We're doing that. Doctor Who coverage. That's all been a lot of fun. And we're talking about maybe doing Murderbot. Can everybody just let us know? Are people excited for the Murderbot show? Yeah, I'm down for that. All right. Radioactive Ramblings, doing animated stuff like Studio Ghibli.

[01:06:26] You've got Nevermind the Music doing their music and psychology pairing. It's lovely. You've got Wolf Shift Dust about to do Dune stuff with Alicia and Luke. You've got the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast, which has the full Canon Timeline going through. They're in the High Republic right now. And you've got Properly Howard movie review and Rings and Rituals, which will both be back soon, hopefully. Thank yous. Discord server boosters. Aaron K. Tiller the Thriller.

[01:06:55] Dork of the Ninjas. Doove 71. Athena A. Tina LaStue. Nancy M. Ghost of Perdition. Radioactive Richard. And our lore master is Samarshan. Michael G. Michelle E. Brian P. SC. Peter O.H. Adam S. Nancy M. Doove 71. Brian 8063. Frederick H. Sarah L. Gareth C. Matthew M. Sarah M. Kat V. W.

[01:07:52] Lestue. Check out all the comics versus podcasts with John and Alicia. Yeah, we're there. All right. All right. Tomorrow night, you're going to get Alicia's podcast with somebody. I don't remember who. So it'll be a surprise. I don't have the sheet up on me. Good night, everybody. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact.

[01:08:22] Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds. And connect with us on Twitter at the Lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening. Bye.