Andor - S02E06 - What a Festive Evening

[00:00:01] Hey Mark, I was listening to Paramore the other day and it really made me think about the amygdala and the limbic system. You just made those words up, didn't you? What, Paramore? We're the Nevermind The Music Podcast, where one musician and one psychologist talk songwriting and the mind, one song at a time. We'll hear everything from Green Day and OutKast to Stevie Wonder and Dua Lipa. And we mostly try to stay on topic. Except for when we don't want to. Nevermind The Music, wherever you get your podcasts.

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[00:00:59] New episode of Andor. We're going to need some recon on this. Delta Squadron, on your left. Missions all yours, Squadron Leader. To anyone else on this comlink, send all transmissions to andor at thelorehounds.com and get Holocron bonus. The Force be with you.

[00:01:41] Welcome to the Lorehounds Andor Podcast. I'm David from the Lorehounds, and we're your guides to a galaxy far, far away. This is our coverage of Andor Season 2, Episode 6, titled, What a Festive Evening. With the triple drops for this season, we're doing our coverage Squadron-style. Each week, John will be covering the first episode, Alicia the second, and I'll be covering the third. And each week, we're going to have a different co-pilot join us.

[00:02:11] My co-pilot for today is our favorite Tolkien scholar, Marilyn R. Paquilla. Marilyn, how are you doing? Doing fine, David. How about yourself? Good. And I don't know if it's Providence or Kismet or maybe even The Force, but we had some amazing feedback from the... Well, it started on the Discord community, and I actively solicited people. I'd be like, you, write me an email. You sure did. You sure did. And it's wonderful. It's really rich. And it's Tolkien crossover perfect.

[00:02:40] So having you to be able to talk about this is like a gift. Well, thank you. And thanks to the folks who posted those things, you'll hear their names or their tags or whatever. Yeah, when we get to that. When we get to that. Yep. And this is your second week, because last week you were with John for the kickoff. Correct, which was very exciting to be. The first of the first squadrons, yes. Exactly, exactly. And I think we've all been having a lot of fun with this squadron style.

[00:03:07] So we're really so grateful that we have such a great community of people to talk with and to cover this amazing show with. I've got a couple of more notes. First off, we got a bunch of feedback, sort of production-related feedback, not like show-related feedback. And I just want to let you know, if you wrote in and you haven't heard back from us, we did read them. We hear you. We appreciate the nature in which you sent us that feedback. I'll just put an asterisk.

[00:03:35] I was traveling last week, and I didn't have a time to sit down and triple watch the episode and do what I would normally do. I was at a business conference, and I was leading a session, actually, and I had to prepare and watch the show. It was just madness. But rest assured, we're locked in, and we are, with all intents and purposes, our attention is fully on this show. Bring in my A game as best I can. That's right.

[00:04:04] I'll apologize in advance for any mistakes, confusions. Well, I think that's an important point. This was going to be another note in just a second, but our personal Star Wars backgrounds, I believe you and I are both just regular fans of Star Wars. Yeah, I'd say so. I mean, I am an OG from May 1977 when I sat down in that auditorium and saw for the first time the glory and the majesty of it all. And I've mostly only followed the films.

[00:04:32] Recently, people have gotten me into Rebels. And I've dipped in and out of Clone Wars at the advice of various people who said, you know, this is good. You can skip this arc, et cetera, et cetera. And then mostly now what I've learned is from the podcast, from hearing you all talk, I've been with Alicia on her Star Wars Time podcast. Right, Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast. Canon Timeline. Excuse me, Canon Timeline. I know, it's a mouthful. Beginning to learn more about the difference between canon and non-canon. Right.

[00:05:01] I think I've only read one book and that was Ahsoka, which I liked very much. Very cool. Yeah, I've been following all of the series since they've been coming out too. So Ahsoka and Mandalorian and, you know, all the other things. So that's kind of where I'm situated. But don't ask me about, you know, book lore versus film lore versus whatever because I'm just not there. Right.

[00:05:25] And I, too, am a child of 77, although probably I was a little bit shorter to your knees than looking you in the eyes. By about a decade or so? Yeah, maybe. I was about 10 when it came out. Yeah. And like you, I'm mostly an on-screen fan, dipped in and out of Rebels, Clone Wars, that kind of stuff. Haven't played any of the games. Well, no, I did play some of the mid, oh, the mid, no, is it the mid-90s games? Hmm. A couple of them, but not read any of the books, any of that kind of stuff.

[00:05:53] And this brings up an interesting point. And let me just give the all-spoiler warning. Absolutely. Since we're on the third episode of the second drop, we can talk about episodes four and five without worrying about anything. Or even one, two, and three. Yes, exactly. And so all of Andor is up for discussion, as well as anything that we might know or not know about Star Wars in the entire world.

[00:06:23] Fortunately, we have within our, I don't know, our battalion, our air wing, I guess you could say. Okay, Alicia is our expert lore and lore master, and she is able to write us notes and give us all kinds of insights and interesting things into it. John is also very knowledgeable, but Alicia really is top of her game with this stuff. Definitely. Definitely.

[00:06:50] So, oh, and I think I had a point and I forgot what that point was. How we come across or what we do and don't know? Yeah, no, now I don't remember. But it doesn't matter. It's fine. Let's keep moving forward. The base information is there. Yeah, exactly. And then we just want to make sure that people have a clear expectation of who we are and how we come to the property. Sure. So that there's not a mismatch in you, listener, your expectations about what we do. Oh, I know what I was going to say now. It did come back to me. I thought it would.

[00:07:19] This brings up a very interesting point. We could probably talk about it later, but I want to put a little pin in it. And we were talking about this on the community discord today that Tony Gilroy himself is not a lore expert and he's not fawning. He's not doctrinal in his relationship to Star Wars canon. And it's merely the tapestry in which he's telling the story.

[00:07:43] And I think when we can come to the story without being an expert in the lore and in the canon, it is a really available story for us. And I think that's something special about Andor. You know, a lot of times we talk about, oh, this city is a character. New York City is a character in this story that we're watching. The lore in this series, Andor, is not a character. It's important. The characters are firmly rooted in it, the timeline, everything.

[00:08:13] Sure, sure. And there's a lot of respect paid to it, but he's also not centering the lore as, oh, we want to tell this story about this lore. We want to tell this story about these characters. And I think that's... Yeah, yeah. They're telling a story about rebellions and how they happen and what the costs are. Exactly. And so we can approach it from that wider general storytelling viewpoint rather than being ultra deep experts on the Star Wars canon lore. Sure. Right.

[00:08:41] So we're also going to shift our tactics a little bit. We've mostly been covering these podcasts in a thematic-based way, so in the major plot arcs. But today we're going to do a little bit more of a scene by scene, and then we're going to lump the last three scenes together. Because of the way that this episode was constructed, doing the thematics was very hard for me to harsh my brain. And so it's a little bit...

[00:09:05] It's scene by scene, and then right up until the conclusion of the episode, and then we just talk about the three major storylines that resolve out of... So we've got to match our tactics to whatever's in front of us. Yes. Marilyn, that's enough preamble. Let's get right into our hot takes. So what did you think of episode six of season two?

[00:09:27] And if you need to throw in some stuff from episodes four and five, by all means, but what did you think of this as the capstone to this drop of three episodes? Well, they definitely landed the plane for this arc. Nice. And I've got to say, I had my doubts. Wow. Well, it was hard for me to watch four and five. Okay. It was a very deep exploration of trauma, which for some people is very difficult.

[00:09:56] We've been having a lot of conversation on the Discord about this stuff as well. We certainly have, and it's been very productive. Amazing, right? For an online community, the nuance and depth of conversation is exquisite. And the support. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's what's so important. Yeah, yeah. And I really like how they brought those issues, if not to resolution, at least didn't stick with tired old tropes. There are a couple of tropes in there, but we'll get to those.

[00:10:26] There are, but you see, so much depends on people's individual experience. It's true. How they react to things. And to some degree, because trauma is so very personal and depicted in so many different ways, you can say, well, yes, that resonates for me. And no, that doesn't. And that's perfectly valid. I think that's the bottom line for me. And I think they did it that way.

[00:10:52] For me, the biggest message, very much connected with this, is love does not fix. Love accompanies the healing journey, whatever that may look like. And everybody's healing journey is going to be different. Mm-hmm. So, you can make assumptions that, oh, this is what you need, when maybe it really isn't. And finally, finally, people started to listen to Bix. Mm-hmm. And what she wanted.

[00:11:22] What she needed. What she needed to do. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that's why I found it so satisfactory. Rather than just boxing her up and saying, poor little bunny, and patting her on the head and saying, get better soon. We love you. We miss you. Right. You needed this question of agency. And the whole question of, you know, depicting a survivor as better because they fought back and help us if they didn't. That's all nonsense to my mind. Right. Everybody has to respond the way they have to respond.

[00:11:51] And Bix kept telling people, this is how I want to respond. I don't want to be confined because what's to prevent me if I'm just spiraling? Mm-hmm. And I think Cassian finally heard that. I think Luthen finally heard that. Mm-hmm. And I missed one piece of that whole dynamic. But somebody on the Discord pointed it out. So, when we get to that point, I will definitely say that. I love the French resistance vibes of Coromine.

[00:12:19] I put a post myself in Discord about the whole connection with the silk industry. Mm-hmm. Maybe think immediately of Lyon and that that was made Nazi headquarters and the way they used their industry to help with their resistance. Mm-hmm. Just quite spectacular and even fascinating to realize that Lyon is in the region of France, which is closest to the Germanic-speaking part of Switzerland.

[00:12:49] Mm-hmm. So, this idea of combining a language, which is somewhat Germanic and somewhat French, I really like that a lot. There's another theme for me of, you know, we were talking about the difference between the rebellion and revolution. And, you know, some people say- That was a really interesting thread that was brought up. It's not a revolution unless you win, which, I don't know. The bottom line for me is people die. Mm-hmm. Call it what you like, people die.

[00:13:18] I loved the go slow to go fast. Mm-hmm. Coming up again on both sides. Mm-hmm. You know, I find it interesting how he's drawing parallels in some respects between the two sides as we see it. Also, I think we're taking a close look at this question. In violent conflicts, our loved one's assets or liabilities. Mm-hmm.

[00:13:40] And how do you decide to support them so that they can become the former and not the latter? Right. I find myself wondering, which way is Cyril going to turn? Lots of discussion about that, too. Yeah. Yeah. Is there a redemption arc for Cyril? Yeah. And then finally, for me, the theme of heroes acting individually and so forth and communities. Mm-hmm.

[00:14:08] That heroes have to come from communities to some degree. Mm-hmm. And have support for them. But it's also important, and perhaps this is one of Gilroy's intentions, to recognize that community action, whether or not people are ever known by name, is as significant. And in some ways, even more important, because you can take out the top of the evil whatever it is again and again and again.

[00:14:35] But if you don't change your systems, it's just an endless cycle. Mm-hmm. And force versus force, that's not the way to go forward and build a different type of community system. So I think that's what he's getting at. And I think that was part of the conversation of the revolution versus rebellion. Yes, it was. Which changing a system as opposed to changing the leadership of said system. Yeah.

[00:15:05] And can I say, this is what's so exciting for me. We're bringing in new people with us. Mm-hmm. And the community, as we've already said, is just fabulous on the Discord channels. Listeners, if you're not there, wow, I think you're missing out on something special. Yeah, it's really exquisite. So what about you, David? What are your hot takes? Well, Marilyn, I was looking at the scheduling today and my notes. And you and I, we have podcasted many times before. Yes, we did.

[00:15:33] And we don't do short podcasts. Listeners, buckle in. Get your snacks now. You've been warned. Right. But we do need to keep this one moving. So it's like at some point I have to cut myself off here because life is ever running. And so anyway, I will get through as much as I can. And first off, movies and TV shows are made in the editing rooms. And the editing on this was, oh, superb. Yeah.

[00:16:04] Absolutely phenomenal. And my heart was racing during the, between the, cutting between the party and the heist. And I, you know, not knowing, and I was a complete sucker. The signals for Sinta's demise were all there. It was all laid out. And as I've done my rewatching, it's like, oh, yep, there it is. There it is. There it is. And I completely missed it. And so when it hit, it hit hard. And it was like, wow. But the editing, the way that they put everything together was fabulous.

[00:16:31] The intricate character-based storytelling is phenomenal. And I'm really loving this Bix Cassian, Cyril Dedra, and Vel Sinta. You know, goodbye, sweet Sinta. She was a gift. But we're looking at all of these couples and the circumstances that they're under within this rebellion.

[00:16:52] And as you were talking about community and heroes, this idea that a hero doesn't come from out of the sky. I mean, it may be, you know, in a supernatural-based story. But otherwise, we are leadership and where we come from is the people that are around us. I mean, leadership matters. And I think I have this note somewhere else. Oh, yeah. No, it's right here.

[00:17:20] That this story that Gilroy and his ensemble are telling, he's clearly, clearly, clearly always centering it back in, this is a story about rebellion. Yeah, we need a titular character to sort of follow and break through all the material. But it's really not just about Cassian. Yeah.

[00:17:44] And these human stories that are unfolding under this circumstance, history is not about, oh, you know, or history. I mean, complex word. Yes. You can describe, yeah, you know, 50 years ago, this glacial, you know, calved off and, you know, it fell. Okay, that's a description, right? Yes, that's historic. You know, that happened. Mm-hmm. But when we tell the rest of history, it's about people. What actions did you take? What actions did they take?

[00:18:14] What actions did this nation take and decide to take? And so, this, by centering this story of a galactic rebellion, that's a scale we cannot comprehend. Our brains just can't, you know, we barely have a hard time getting down the block, let alone across the other side of our own planet.

[00:18:36] And so, the macro story is being compressed, you know, not compressed, but we're living it through the point of views of these characters. Mm-hmm. And then he sets up these characters in these little pairings and relationships and individuals and all this kind of stuff. But it's superb storytelling because the character development and the development of the rebellion at a galactic scale are so beautifully intertwined.

[00:19:05] And you can cycle up and down that vertical scaling. Mm-hmm. And I never get disoriented. Yeah. Well, as an historian, I will affirm that any honest historian will tell you that if you have five witnesses to an event, you will have at least six versions of it. It's absolutely true. And then, as we know, who gets to set the narrative? Who gets to set the frame of the narrative? The one who is in power. Exactly.

[00:19:31] And it doesn't even have to be the winner, but it's the, you know, the one who has power or voice or the ability to manipulate or to speak for. Right. The whole first season of Andor was showing how Cassian went from being a thief to a rebel. Yeah. And it was from his community. Yes. Both his personal relationship with Marva and then his community as a whole. I even wrote a blog post about this on our website.

[00:19:55] Oh, and while I'm thinking of it, I hope that the people who wrote all those wonderful things that we're going to hear at the end on Discord will strongly consider writing blog posts of them as well. There is one up already. I've had such a hectic day that I have not had a chance to read it, but it was also one of those where, like, you know, hello, Discord post user person. This is profound. You should write it. And then I, like, I got Brian, who's our editor-in-chief.

[00:20:23] I'm like, you guys, you know, get this article. Yeah, get this moved across. So it went up this morning and I, yeah, I haven't had a chance yet. Great. Actually, I might even try to sort of look at it, get the title of it out of the corner of my eye here really fast. If you hang on for one second. It is What Makes a Rebellion Effective? Andor Season 2 by Angua Lupin. Wonderful.

[00:20:49] And that is looking at the different rebellion factions in Andor. Oh, very cool. Laurelens.com. Go to just look for the link for the blog page on there. Mm-hmm. Couple of issues. One, there is the bury your gays trope.

[00:21:09] I, myself, am not gay, so I don't mean to speak for the gay community, but there is a trope of people who are out on, you know, who are on screen, characters on screen who are out end up dying at a faster rate than other characters. The fact that Cinta died from the story, just from the broad story standpoint, great storytelling. And it's like, ah, damn, did we have to, did it have to be Cinta? Could it have been somebody else? So there is that.

[00:21:37] And then there's this whole question of Bix arc and agency and stuff like that. And it's in an area that I'm really just, wow, I need to sort of listen and pay attention because there's a lot going on that I just don't have any experience or point of view into. And I'm just so, we're so fortunate that we have people to talk through this stuff on the Discord.

[00:22:00] But I wanted to flag those because in an otherwise almost perfect show, these are a couple little things that are like, hmm, you know, who's in the writer's room? Is it just a bunch of dudes? They're doing a really good job, but you can see where there's some gappage with using tropes, right? Tropes themselves aren't bad, but they can be shortcuts to what you're getting to. Yeah, shorthand. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm going to try to remember to bring this up again when we're talking about the use of words.

[00:22:30] Right. And the power of who is the one who gets to name the words. Got it. You mean like when Krennic said, words do have meaning. Yeah, yeah, they sure do. And how many meanings do they have? Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how do we take in those words? By touch? By visual? Yeah, there's all kinds. Yeah. Great stuff. By experience in our own bodies? Yeah, for sure. Back to my hot takes.

[00:22:54] There's some beautiful cross-cutting themes, cross-epithodes themes that are going on in the show. Leadership, chain of command. You brought up this idea, go slow to go fast. Yeah. This is a, what's the word I want to say? This is a phrase that's constantly used in the military or law enforcement or emergency response.

[00:23:20] When you're learning a new skill, you slow down to go fast. When you're rushing, you're making mistakes. Yeah. But when you slow down, especially when you're training, when you go slow, you can start to build the muscle memory and you can start to build the patterns in your mind as you want to go. So I really loved that you picked up on that because I also picked up on it. Well, even Gollum said, careful, precious. Less space, more speed. Right. Yeah. So it's not anything new.

[00:23:50] It's not, it's just not new to, to our modern context, but it's been around. Right. Yeah. Great parallels too with this, oh, this whole question of eagerness. You know, we have Cyril and the ISB. He's so eager and excited to participate and do something meaningful. And it's the same thing with the Gorman front folks. It's not only, you know, running into the movable object that is Cassian, but, you know, when, when Vel and Cinta are trying to train them as well, they're like, you know, hey, we're, we're, we're big kids.

[00:24:19] We can do this. And clearly. Well, many of them are, some of them aren't. I mean, the crucial question is, you know, can you follow orders? Right. And I think that's a really important thing because when we go back to the first three episodes, we have the Maya Pay Brigade. And when I talked to Matt Cavanaugh, who's a retired Lieutenant Colonel from the US Army. Right.

[00:24:41] You know, he talked about how, you know, when you take away the leadership cap and you got a bunch of young hormonal individuals who are all amped up with a million dollars worth of training and gear, you know, they're crazy. Right. You know, but that's you because, because they're in a, in a military system, you're harnessing that energy. Yeah. And pointing it at some, well, it's both the great strength and the great weakness of hierarchy. Exactly. Right.

[00:25:07] So, um, and then what I was going to say is, is, you know, with his eagerness, then we, we have an ultimate Chekhov's blaster. I don't think it was introduced in the first, uh, scene, but it certainly was, it was introduced and, and the gun went off. Yeah. Yeah. A couple of other big cross-cutting themes I saw, um, strength of character.

[00:25:27] That was really something with, uh, that's been brought up a couple of times, you know, is Cassian strong enough to, you know, taste the pepper, you know, when they were shopping in the bodega and a couple of other scenes where people are talking about how is their character? Are they up to the challenge or do they have strength of character to, uh, to face what's, um, what needs to be faced? And then I just love, then this goes back to episode four where both the ISB and Axis and Luthans group, they're just drowning in information. Yeah.

[00:25:56] And this idea of watching these organizations as they're struggling through rebellion and counter-rebellion. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I think what's happening with a lot of these bigger themes, they're very clearly being put into the language of the, of the scripts and into the language that's on screen. And I really am excited to see what we get in, uh, the back half of the season for how these things are, these various different themes that are going to play out. Mm-hmm.

[00:26:26] Uh, specifically around leadership, around this eagerness, around chain of command, all of this kind of stuff. I think there's going to be some interesting things. I can't predict exact what, but I feel like they're setting it up for the back half of the season. Mm-hmm. So, to that end, uh, this idea that this whole thing, we'll get into it in a minute. Maybe I'll just save this for this conversation there, but Luthan and why he's, he doesn't know why he's chasing Gorman. I think that's really important. Yeah.

[00:26:53] Because he's been outside of the Emperor's game and he's, that's allowed him to make moves. Yeah. But now he's playing the Emperor's game by not knowing why Gorman is there. And that makes Luthan, that makes his position weaker as opposed to being outside. Mm-hmm. Because the thing about Sheep Palpatine is he is a master manipulator. Sure. And the game board is his. Luthan has been outside the game board to a degree.

[00:27:17] And so he's been able to manipulate and maneuver, uh, in ways that others can't. And I, and there's an interesting dynamic there. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, obviously there's grief and trauma and stress abounds. You don't say. Live in part just for the Will saw, uh, the Willemann saw. Oh, incredible. Oh. Devastating.

[00:27:44] Um, and yet, you know, believable. Yeah. I mean, when, when Willemann rages at the end there, oh man. Yeah. It's going to go, it's going to be dark. Whatever resolves gets, it's going to be dark. I wondered how much of that was Willemann's rage and how much of it was the drugs talk. Both. Right. It's an accelerant. I think it had to have been. It had to have been. I, yeah, and there's a lot of conversation. I hate bringing up the discord, but there's a lot of conversation about that right now about it. Yeah. And then lastly, okay.

[00:28:14] And then, then we'll, we'll take a break and then we'll get into the episode, uh, proper. The production values of the show are incredible. Unbelievable. Uh, the sets are beautiful. I loved the tech in, in Cyril's office, those green terminals and beautiful art deco sort of, uh, designs and everything. And so sterile. Mm. And then each world and location has its, has a unique look. So it really aids to the visual storytelling. So we know where we are.

[00:28:43] I don't even need to, you don't even have to put the title card on the screen. It's white and sterile. Oh, that's course. Or, course. You know, that's, that's ISB, you know, as opposed to, you know, Gorman now. So really phenomenal. Obviously the acting is superb. Mm-hmm. The nuance, the subtlety, the face acting, just incredible. And then the, man, the cinematography. There is some stuff going on that is so subtle that it, it took me a while to, to cotton onto some of what's going on.

[00:29:12] One of the things that they're doing, and I need to go back and do a deeper dive. This may be one of my visual analyses. Okay. You know, for the, for the season pass and for regular subscribers. So season pass is a one time $10 non-recurring charge. You get all the episodes ad free. You get our season one coverage. And then you get all these bonus episodes like our Holocron lore drops. These side conversations that we're having with some other experts and people. And then some of my video analysis, I just did a, an analysis of the TIE Avenger looking

[00:29:41] at the, the systems and weapons and, you know, speculating a little bit about it. But anyway, I need to, maybe I'll do this for what my next video analysis is there's reflections everywhere. Yes. You mentioned that in some of your posts. Yeah. That'll be really fun to hear you talk about more. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know why it just, as part of the visual language, you know, Sinta and Vel behind a piece of glass or we'll talk about it as we get into scenes. But there's some stuff. Sure.

[00:30:09] And then during the heist, there's a great little one-er, you know, that where the camera doesn't cut for a whole sequence of stuff. And we'll talk about it when we get there. I just wanted to add to your list of couples. Yes. Yes. I think we should add Mon and Perrin. Oh yeah, of course. I can't believe. Also add Luthen and Kayla. Okay. Clea. Yeah. Clea. Mon and Perrin. Okay. I'm adding this in. And Luthen.

[00:30:39] I think you're absolutely right. I was thinking more of the coupledom kind of thing, but it doesn't have to be the romantic entanglement. Exactly. It would certainly be about people who work together or, I mean, Mon and Perrin just almost have a business-like relationship to their marriage. Yeah. But it's two people together. Exactly. I love it. Thank you. Good eyes. I just noted that in my notes now. Okay.

[00:31:04] I got to uncheck and highlight that so that I remember to come back to it. So, do you have any other notes or thoughts for the season overall or to the last six episodes? No, I think listeners are probably ready for a break and looking forward to getting into the details. Sounds good. When we get back, we'll start off with Cassian leaving Steergard.

[00:31:29] And we're back. Quick reminder, if you've got feedback or you want to send in a blog post, starwarsatthelorehounds.com

[00:31:57] is how you get your transmissions to our fractal radio. I really want that radio setup that Clay has. I know. Whenever they mentioned it, I just, or we see that radio set, I'm like, oh, David's going to be going crazy right now. Absolutely. And again, you're welcome to join us on the Discord. That is a place for everyone to join and gather our virtual water cooler. And there are links in the show notes for all of this as well as the season pass.

[00:32:27] Quick notes about the episode. The writer for this block was Bo Willimon, who wrote... Which explains to me why... I'm sorry, I cut in. No, you're... You wrote the Narcana 5 arc. Yes. That explains to me why this arc has been so fabulous. Yeah. He really nailed it. So, yeah. So, Bo Willimon, who wrote the Narcana 5 arc. The director is Arielle Kleinman, who also directed episodes one through five. So... Ditto. Yeah. Consistency. Visual consistency. So, we'll see. Are we going to change up gears for the back app? That'll be interesting.

[00:32:57] Timeline is 3 BBY. So, three years before the Battle of Yavin, which is the destruction of the first Death Star. And, yeah. So, overall, the episode weaves together these parallel operations. The Gorman's... The Gorman weapons heist and the high society infiltration, if you will, of Skulldun's party. And then we've got that third plot running on, which is Cassian and Bix. So, let's start off with Luthan. Sorry. Luthan.

[00:33:27] Cassian boarding Luthan's ship at Port Stiergard in his Varian Skies. The exchange quickly turns tense as Cassian warns Luthan that the rebels aren't prepared for large-scale operations. Luthan dismisses his concern, seeing value in a dramatic and likely failed rebellion effort that would burn brightly and potentially inspire others.

[00:33:54] Clea and Luthan then talk, and we see Vel on Gorman exchanging the code phrase with the underground. What did you think about this? Well, the... I think I picked up on the code phrase the first time when Cassian first delivered it in his role as Varian Skies. Boy, doesn't Cassian clean up beautifully? Very nicely. I'm telling you. Hoo, hoo, hoo. Right down the streets of Manhattan. Yes, sir.

[00:34:24] So in a previous episode when he was about to leave for Gorman, when he went into that office in some sub-level, he delivers that passphrase to that couple before he gets that little ear bug that gives him his backstory. And I was confused at first. It's like, can he listen to this once and get it all into himself? But as somebody else on Discord pointed out, of course he's going to listen to it on loop. Yeah. All the while he's getting there, so...

[00:34:51] But we even know that Cassian is of that caliber because when he's on Aldani, he points out who's left-handed and right-handed when they're training for the thing. So he's that kind of guy. For sure. For sure. So, a quick lore note. Styrgard is a location from where the Star Path unit was stolen. So that thing that Cassian had in the first series of episodes that got him and Luthan together, it was stolen from this planet. Oh, okay. Maybe not this port.

[00:35:19] Maybe there's an Imperial base somewhere else here, but it's all from Styrgard. And then Styrgard is mentioned several times when Dedra and Hirt are developing, who was Dedra's junior and now is a supervisor in his own right. Right. When they were developing their Axis investigation.

[00:35:45] So, my big thought about this is this initial divergence between Cassian and Luthan. And there is this idea of accelerationism. Can I say that word? Accelerationism, which is a political strategy of deliberately making conditions worse to provoke the broader resistance and radicalize the population into rebellion.

[00:36:14] And Gilroy has been quoted in a couple of places. I got this from the Hollywood Reporter. You have to make it hurt really bad in order to bring people to change. Which is fascinating to me because this is precisely what Dedra said to Penderfest. Partagast. Partagast. Excuse me. Yeah. Too many names. I know. It's a lot. And we're going at breakneck speed here. So, yeah. Yeah. Partagast. Where, which season one or season two reference?

[00:36:44] This is when she was called in for the first time to the big folks meeting. Oh, right. Right. Yeah. And wasn't saying anything. Oh, when she says it to Krennic. Krennic. Yeah, yeah. Krennic. Calls her over and says, look. Yeah. I know you have a plot already. Tell me about it. Mm-hmm. Right. And so she says the best thing they could do is fail. Right. But be very, very violent and bloody and fiery in the failure. Exactly. So this is accelerationism. And- So we're seeing it on both sides. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:37:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Empire doesn't yet feel as though it has everybody behind it. Right. And the Rebellion feels exactly the same way. So they're each trying to nudge people more into their own camps. I've got an audio clip from this episode. I'm getting fancy this week. I actually got out my special software. Let's listen to this really quick. You're thinking small. You're thinking like a thief. I'm thinking like a soldier. Think like a leader. Think about a planet like Gorman in Rebellion. A planet of wealth and status.

[00:37:43] It goes up in flames. It will burn very brightly. So Cassian then says, count me out of this one. Yes. So this is this difference between a soldier and a quote unquote leader, you know, a kind of leader that Luthien is seeing. You were going to say.

[00:38:08] Yeah, just that this encapsulates precisely the difference between these two people. Mm-hmm. They're both willing to do violence. They're both incredibly brave. They work in subterfuge, all these kinds of things. But Cassian's already seen his community burn. It's not literally. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:34] And he's just not ready for that level yet. Mm-hmm. I mean, he's also, he's been there. He's talked to these people. He's, you know, seen them. And I think it's a lot harder to objectively say, yeah, let them burn if you've never looked them in the eyes. Right. And there's two thoughts too. There's the whole, they've started too late. We go, and then we get into that whole go slow to go fast. Mm-hmm. And that eagerness to do something. Yeah.

[00:39:05] And Cassian, I think, is looking, he said, I'm looking, I'm a soldier. I'm thinking like of this problem like a soldier. Mm-hmm. He wants to build a network. He wants to build a fighting force. He wants to build something that's going to have durability. Whereas Luthien is more than willing to accept their eagerness and their wealth and their status and all of that to burn them.

[00:39:32] Like he burnt Krieger, the guy that they sacrificed in season one. And Mon Mothma a couple of times has run across this with Luthien. Oh, yeah. Around the Aldani stuff and then around Tay. And Luthien, and we go back to Luthien's monologue to Lani, that he's willing to use the tools of the master.

[00:40:00] I think that's a phrasing that comes out of the African-American community in looking at chattel savory. Is retribution going to come in the same forms and methods? And again, I have not studied this, so apologies if I'm using this wrong. Audre Lorde. Thank you. The tools of the master. That's it. Will never dismantle the master's house. Right. But yet here's Luthien using the tools of the master, right?

[00:40:26] He's willing to burn his soul and take all of the – he can take as much of it on as he wants, but it's going to affect – it's going to hurt other people. And it's going to kill a lot of people. Definitely. Absolutely. And what I find interesting is then he carries on, Luthien does, by inserting his two best operatives. Right. Which we'll talk about further down the line. Right. That's right.

[00:40:55] I don't think either of them is hearing the other at this point, which doesn't surprise me particularly. On the same time, I found myself wondering, maybe I'll talk about this later, is Luthien trying to groom Cassian to be his successor? I don't think so. I don't – that's an interesting thought, and I'm glad you brought it up, but I don't feel like that's going that way. I don't think it will go that way. Well, we know that it will go that way. Right. Well, we don't know what happens between now and then. No, but we know what happens. Yeah.

[00:41:24] The final whatever. Oh, quick interjection too. I heard Tony Gilroy on another podcast on the Script Writers Podcast. I forget the exact name of it. But he talks about they are literally going to end the series in the frame – in the scene just before we first see Cassian on the Rings of Khafrin in Rogue One. Wow. It's not a year from now he's going to be there.

[00:41:49] They are like, you can stop episode 12 of Andor season two and start Rogue One beat later and seamless. Holy cow. It just seems to me that if Luthien is serious about wanting this to be a long-term project, he has to have some notion that if he gets taken out by a bus, what's going to happen to his organization? That's a good point.

[00:42:17] And I think he may be thinking in those terms. Okay. And for whatever reason, he sees Cassian as a better possibility than Vel or Sinta. Yeah, that's true. That's true. We don't know the extent of his network, but if – Yeah. I mean, we know that Luthien appreciates his tools. He has a very good sense of what they can and cannot do. Right. He's trying to nudge Cassian into regions that maybe Cassian himself is not willing to go into.

[00:42:47] Why is he doing that? And it's interesting because he was willing – Cassian was willing to have that authentic human moment with Naya on – Yes. In the test facility for the TIE Avenger and say, you know, we're together – you and me together. Right. I'm going to get a little emotional because – Yeah. He was recognizing her humanity. Yes. Yes. And I think by now Luthien just knows he can't afford to do that. Right.

[00:43:13] And I still see that very first scene of the very first episode of this season and think, what happened between that and when Cassian first meets Jyn Erso? Mm-hmm. And is just not willing to go in the possibility of any kind of hope. I know that he says – people keep quoting it as Cassian who says, rebellions are built on hope.

[00:43:43] I thought it was Jyn who said that. Yeah. It is. In the council meeting. Because Cassian, as we see him in the first part of Rogue One, does not strike me as having much hope. And it's Jyn who rekindles his hope. Precisely. Yeah. And there's a moment – yeah. I did a whole – I was flying last week and as I was flying out to my destination, Rogue One was on my seat back in the TIE. So I was posting on Blue Sky.

[00:44:12] I was like, oh my god, I have to take this picture and this picture. It was like a day – it was the day that season two was dropping. And so I had this whole tweet storm about all this stuff. And there's very much – I think you're right that something in Jyn reignites Cassian's – because he's at some point he's just sort of beaten down and he's just taking orders from this guy to do this thing that he's not comfortable with and then he just doesn't do it. Yeah.

[00:44:42] Yeah. And I'm afraid I know what event it's going to be that might bring about this change in Cassian, but I don't want to – No one is safe. So forgive me for my lack of knowledge. Am I right that Gilroy was the one who was called in to kind of rescue Rogue One? That is correct. Yeah. So he is intimately familiar with this. So the fact that he can come right up to that absolute point. It's incredible. No surprise to me. Yeah. And Diego Luna and Gilroy have been – Yes, also very important.

[00:45:12] We're just catching out the broader outlines of the story. Yeah. Yeah. We should get moving on here, but just really quick, I think you have this in your notes and mine. And I don't remember – I haven't finished Ian and Alicia's episode five coverage yet, but I didn't hear Jean and John talk about this specifically, but Lutheran is looking really, really haggard. Yes. I'm beginning to think that the stress and strain of all these myriad of details is beginning to wear him down.

[00:45:42] Yeah, 100%. No human being can go on the kind of stuff that he's going on without respite, I think. And with those highs and those lows. Right, right. And sooner or later, you know what? The details begin to slip. Mm-hmm. Which is why Clea is on him so intently. And why they're so important as a pair. She even says to him in season one, you're slipping. Yes. Yes, she does. Yes, she does. And now I think it's beginning to be visible. Mm-hmm.

[00:46:11] Praise to Skeller-Scarsten because, wow. Yeah. He is just phenomenal. Yeah, and like we said, both the ISB and Access and the Access Network are flooded with information. There's so much going on where the ISB can scale up resources. It's Lutheran and Clea and with all these disconnected cells spread around the universe. And piles of data and no analysis. Right. To help them. Right.

[00:46:39] He doesn't seem to be cultivating data analysts. No. Or even research librarians. Imagine that. Imagine that. Coming home. Cassian returns to the apartment where he and Bix reconnect. Things darken when Cassian learns Luthun visited Bix alone during his absence. Bix attempts to minimize the encounter while Cassian is increasingly agitated. Oh, yeah.

[00:47:03] So I love that going from being on the floor of the apartment with the to-go boxes strewn about and watching really inane television to an immaculate, beautiful apartment, expensive flowers. You know, Bix is a mechanic from Ferex and yet she's still, you know, let's go for a walk. Let's go. The mission is dinner, right? Right.

[00:47:28] Let's live not as rats but as people who are upright and open-eyed. And, you know, what's the phrase? Eyes open and something bright. Eyes bright. I forget what it is. Right-eyed and wishy-tailed? No, no. I didn't think so. Well, what I want to say is what an incredible use of visuals to convey a change in character. I mean, it just hit me in the face. I thought, is this the same place?

[00:47:57] Good heavens. What has happened to Bix? And it didn't occur to me that they're being sneaky and that we didn't hear Luthun's entire conversation with Bix. Mm-hmm. We just saw, you know, the original scene, which I guess we'll get to. Or is this the time to talk about his visit to her, too? Well, it happened last season, last episode, right? So we can talk about it. Oh, okay. Good. Yeah. The blur. The blur. Blur.

[00:48:25] Everybody on Discord is like, oh, wait, I'm in the wrong thread for the episode. Yeah. It's a blur. No, my takeaway from that initially is that Luthun was suddenly very concerned about Bix that she was using the drugs. Yes. Because I think that means that she might be less trustworthy. Mm-hmm. And yet, I think he carries on after that.

[00:48:49] What other major event could it possibly have been that would lead to that switch in Bix? Right. From food containers on the floor to flowers on the table. Right. It's her trying to get her own feet. Well, and that's the interesting thing about Luthun. Whenever he passes by, his gravity wave, right, is going to affect you. Yes. You can't not be affected by Luthun.

[00:49:17] And it was interesting as he was – we're talking about episode six today, but sometimes we have to talk about the past. Of course. He's prowling around the apartment looking for these things, and when he finds the clue, he zeroes in on it. Right, right. You know, and he – my headcanon is when he says to her, well, yeah, you can take this stuff, but when you stop it, it's going to rebound. Right. He's speaking from experience. I think so, too. Absolutely. Personal experience.

[00:49:44] He might have seen it in other people, too, but his own personal experience. There's nothing like personal experience to really be integral. The truth you discover for yourself is always more powerful than the truth that you're told or learned. Precisely. Yeah. Intellectually learned. And I think it's interesting.

[00:50:01] I think it's a very subtle and telling moment because Luthun, if he had been using it, and now he stopped and he lived through the withdrawal, what piece did he make with his own self that he doesn't need that? And what knowledge did he take away that gave him a better understanding of what Bix needs now? Hmm. Right.

[00:50:30] A better understanding than Cassian. Yep. Right, right. Because did you listen to John and Jean's conversation about episode? Yeah. And John brought up that beautiful thing about the scripts that men and women follow. Yes. Yes. And how when we're under stress and in grief, we go to these cultural understandings that we've just downloaded. These patterns. Yeah. From the society at large. The scripts. Yeah. We've just inherited them without choice.

[00:50:59] But we heard Bix already tell Cassian that she wants to fight. Yeah. And she wants to get out. Yeah. She wants to do and to be and all these other things. And obviously, all right, let me be clear. The suffering of the partner, while not the same way, can be equally as devastating to the partner. Okay, say that again. Rephrase that for me. Well, just that Cassian is seeing Bix suffer and he wants to fix it. Right, right. That's the script. Yeah, right.

[00:51:29] To some degree. Yep. But that's his pain too. Mm-hmm. And it's important to remember that. Yeah. That at any couple of them where one has had trauma, they both are going to suffer. Right. Different ways. Right. They both suffer. Right. And he's trying to do what he can to say, okay, I need to put that suffering out of my mind because I have a job to do right now. Mm-hmm. So, I understand his responses. I don't think they're good ones. Luthen has, necessarily.

[00:51:57] Luthen has the ability to be dispassionate enough about it all. Mm-hmm. Not to mention the experience of seeing it in other people. Mm-hmm. To know this is actually what's needed. And don't worry about it. I'm going to get you some. Mm-hmm. And I think he might even have realized the best thing that could have happened for Vix is what happens at the end of the episode. Right. Right. But I love that Cassian will be a partner in it. Yeah. Well, when we get, yeah, we got to save it.

[00:52:27] Yeah. I've got a lot to say about that. I have to say that I tried to listen to, I tried to go get the name pronunciation right on the internet. So, I apologize if I get the solalibles wrong. Adria Arjona, who is the actress who plays Vix. Mm-hmm. Her, oh my God, her going from my lover is home.

[00:52:50] I'm so, I just want to be with this person physically to the, I don't want to talk about what's happening with me mentally to the, let's have dinner to the difficult conversation about the creepy guy who came by and knew you weren't here and dealing with your partner's anger. Her ability to translate all of that in her face, in her body, just an exquisite performance. It's absolutely stunning.

[00:53:19] And to be willing to go to those emotional levels. Mm-hmm. And I will say as a woman, because of, again, those scripts and the feeling of vulnerability. Mm-hmm. I am in awe. I'm absolutely in awe. Uh, the, I think that was all I had for this scene. Oh, I know there was one final note.

[00:53:44] The, the level of physical intimacy and passion that we're seeing on screen in not just with, with Cassian and Bix, who, when we were seeing a bunch with them for a, a Disney show and a Star Wars show. This is really the Star Wars of a, of a different, um, category, right? I'm not going to put anything above or below or anything else. This is just, it really is, uh, this other world.

[00:54:12] And to see two people holding each other and caressing and showing this open affection and intimacy in, in our Star Wars storytelling is, it's wow. It's really wow. And to see two women in- We're going to get there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. A potent sexual relationship. But what I love so much about the farewell scene between Cassian and Bix before he goes off. Oh, right. To Corman, it was physical. It was sensual.

[00:54:41] The love conveyed was almost overwhelming. And it was not in, you didn't have to show body parts. Right. Exactly. It was not HBO. You didn't need that. Every single message that might be conveyed with an openly sexual scene. Right. Was conveyed there. And it, it, it almost broke my heart. It was just beautiful. And I even loved the, the playful. Like, well, maybe I'll bring Varian Sky home one day and we'll have some fun with that guy. Absolutely. It was so great.

[00:55:11] Absolutely. Because she's probably never seen, you know, have they ever gone out and, you know, dressed up and had the fun of wearing clothes and stylizing yourself in a way that is outside of your normal. Right. Not, not likely on Ferrix at any rate. Yeah. And since then, they really haven't had a lot of time to expand their wardrobes much. No. Just saying. Closet. No, they don't. They don't have a Tardis closet.

[00:55:39] A year's worth of insincerity. Mon and Perrin ride in the car, making the rounds for some of the investiture banquets or planning their investiture banquet strategy that they have to attend. Noting that it took Mon years in office before hosting her first ceremonial dinner. And I just love this line from Perrin. And it's tough squeezing a whole year's worth of insincerity into three months. Yeah, no kidding. So good. But it's interesting how much more comradely they seem.

[00:56:09] Yeah, I was going to mark that as well. They're both in the first three episodes around the wedding. And then now, through this, well, do we, we don't really, this is really their episode here. Their working relationship, air quotes. Exactly. Their body language when they're in the car together. Yeah. On the way to whatever party or ceremony, whatever it was. Radically different. Yeah.

[00:56:38] From most of season one. A couple of other notes, and then I want to do something on the camera work, which, to talk about the camera work. Obviously, this is a setup and transition, a little bit of exposition, but it's still got a lot of protein in it, as Tony might say. I noted that Chloris is still their driver, the ISB informant. And I thought it was interesting to pick up on what you were just saying about their relationship and the functionalness of their relationship.

[00:57:07] Because she was open, it was like open disdain in season one. Exactly. Is that she relies on Perrin to be the social butterfly when they're going around all of these things. And she's not only, she's relying on him. For sure. For sure. He takes the attention. Yeah. So that she can be looking into other things. Exactly. And interesting, too, he's almost like the social director, and she's the source of power. Yes. Yep.

[00:57:37] Yep. And I only just twigged at the fact that she kept her family name. He kept his family name. Now, I know nothing about marriage customs. Right. Chandrila and marriage customs. Chandrila. Chandrila. Oh, now we're in trouble. Moving on, moving on, moving on. We'll move on. You say one, I say the other. Right. I know. Tomato, tomato. The internet gets a bee in their bonnet about pronunciations. I'm sure they do. I've been known to tut-tut at certain words in Quenya and Sindat. Right. Hey, hey. I understand.

[00:58:06] You want to get serious. Let's get into the Tolkien pronunciations. All right? So, yeah, but it's really interesting. And when we talk about the setup of all these couples or these pairings of people, how relationships works. And I think that's one of the things that's so authentic about this is that I've been married for just over 10 years now. Congratulations. We just had our 10-year anniversary. And you do. You develop, oh, that's your thing. That's my thing. Right? I can't handle this right now. You usually handle this.

[00:58:36] Can you please? You know, you create these lanes, so to speak, or, you know, for your social engagements where you rely on each other. And even in Clea and Luthin rely on each other for these different aspects. Definitely. And I suspect, because I've never been in a long-term marriage, or never in any marriage, that those things get renegotiated over time. They explicitly and implicitly. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:05] It happens on both. But then conditions change, people change, whatever. But it's that notion of, as a couple, we don't have to both handle everything. Exactly. And we've had some things come up in our family life where, like, okay, I said to my wife, I'm going to handle this. Right? I will take the lead on this. I feel comfortable doing this. Sure. But then, like, we might be in the kitchen, and I'll open the dishwasher and put a couple things away, and then I get pulled off, whatever.

[00:59:35] However, I'm listening to a podcast, and I have to run to the Discord because I have a comment about something that somebody said on the podcast. I'm going to do that, too. Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. And I'll come back, and my wife is, you know, continuing on the dishes, and there's no animosity, like, oh, why are you, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You flow, right? You flow. The best relationships, too, just like Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. There you go.

[00:59:57] So, speaking of flowing, and last note before flowing camera work, Mon does the, I don't know if you noticed, she does the thing where she unlayers. Oh, yeah. And that's a deliberate choice, apparently. I think I heard Alicia talk about this, that the costumers deliberately layer Mon Mothma's clothing so she can do this thing where she's like, ugh, and it adds to our visual storytelling. Yes, yes. But I also think there may be some sort of a social thing involved, too. 100%.

[01:00:25] You don't want to have exactly the same look at all 10 of the parties you're going to, too. Correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because heavens would have felt how that would be. Okay. Check this camera work on this scene. Like, it was crazy. So, we start out this scene with the car as a reflection of a building that it's passing by. And the camera position is roughly on the front left corner.

[01:00:53] And it's riding with the car at the same velocity of the car. And we don't see any of the car in the shot. We see the reflection of the build. Hmm. And we see the car in the reflection. Then the camera pivots and looks back towards the down the length of the car as we come to the end of the building. So, the reflection is just as the reflection on the side of the building goes away. The camera pivots. We see Chloris, the driver.

[01:01:21] And then the camera detaches itself from the car and the car and starts to slow down. So, the velocity of the car starts to overtake the camera. So, the camera is the car catching up to the and passing the camera is what's causing the motion relative motion between the camera and the car. So, you know, we got a doll. It's kind of like a dolly shot that way.

[01:01:44] And then we then just as we come up to Perrin and Mon Mothma, we freeze for half a second and we see into the car and we see them. Then we cut to a bunch of back and forth interior shots as they're, you know, having their conversations. And then when the scene is over, we're on the other side of the car on the outside of the window. And then the camera slows its relative velocity. The car continues and pulls away, passes, and then drops off.

[01:02:13] So, we're constantly in motion in this scene and we're using reflection. We're looking through windows. We're up close with people. And then the car pulls. So, they're using the relative position and velocities of the camera and the car against each other to create this feeling of motion within the scene. You've got such an eye, David. I am not a, and I'm not a trained cinematographer or anything like that, right? This is just me watching it three times. Well, you're a profoundly gifted amateur then.

[01:02:44] It's incredible when you start to pick up on. Yeah. I have to go, I'm going to have to go back. And I think this is this kind of show where I'm going to be re-watching this every couple of years. And there's going to be new and new layers. Yeah, they've gone a long way from Bogie and Bacall sitting in front of a driving wheel with the behind scene. Right, right, yeah. Scrolling across. But if you re-watch this episode, definitely watch that scene again and pay attention to how that works.

[01:03:13] Mm-hmm. So, any other notes for this? Well, I felt that Clea was a little bit too obviously on a mission. Clea, there's no Clea here. This is just Mulan and Perrin. So, I think your note might- Oh, I might just be jumping ahead then. Yeah. Okay, my apologies. I'll hold that for later. No problem. Well, let's do this. Let's take a really quick break. And then when we come back, we'll pick up where Cassian confronts Luthen.

[01:03:57] And we are back. Cassian shows up at Luthen's shop unannounced and demanding explanations for why Luthen visited Bix. Luthen berates Cassian for breaking protocol and Cassian grows upset over the fact that Luthen is jeopardizing- He's perceiving Luthen as jeopardizing Bix's well-being. Luthen shifts the blame, expressing disappointment in both of them. Tut, tut.

[01:04:24] And reminding Cassian that the cause must always come first. Cassian's ultimatum, he and Bix are a package deal and Luthen needs to help with getting Bix back into the fight if he wants Cassian to- Cassian? Boy, I'm really- Say this three times fast, David. Exactly. If he wants Cassian to stick in the fight. So, I'm a little confused. We've already- Have we already seen Bix with the flowers on the table? Yes. This was before that. Yep. Yep.

[01:04:54] No, we haven't seen it. This is in order. These scenes are in order of the episode. Okay. Okay. So, yeah. So, Cassian and Bix have already had their reunion and had the flowers on the table. Okay. So, in that case, Luthen is doing a certain amount of withholding. Yeah. And Cassian calls him out for that. Yeah. But also, in a sense, Cassian is telling him what he already knows. Mm-hmm.

[01:05:23] Which we'll see, you know, especially the whole Bix and Iron package deals. Right. Right. Right. I think so often is the case, Luthen is already three steps ahead of him on that one. And the thing is, Cassian and Luthen, there's another couple for you. Interesting. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I almost merged their two names in my head as I was trying to say the words. Luthen. Luthen? Luthen.

[01:05:54] Luthen. When, you know, this divergence in terms of strategy. Yeah. And I'm willing to sacrifice the Gormans and I'm not. Are you willing to sacrifice Bix? No. I need Bix as much as I need you. Not only because you are a pack, you know, not only because she helps you and you help her and you're both. It's interesting. Oh, I just thought of this too.

[01:06:21] Vel, Sinta tells Vel later that we're more, we're worth more to Luthen separate than we are as together. Oh. And I just thought of something too. Luthen has been working with Bix a lot longer than he's been working with Cassian. That's very true. That's true. He's met her, I forget what Dedra says, but yeah, multiple times. Yep. Yes. And we see her calling him in the first season and so on.

[01:06:49] So, yeah, well, how easy it is to forget. And Luthen's a treasure hunter, right? Precisely. And so he's relying on Bix for her technical skill. Well, I mean, he came to get her to do a weapons appraisal, right? So he trusts her ability to, as an analyst and as an expert in her field. Right. Right. So he may have a better sense of Bix's character than Cassian does. I know they dated in the first season. Yeah.

[01:07:17] The sense was they had dated for a while and then split up. Yeah. And there's that great scene where he comes back and he says, oh, do you remember when I jumped over this wall and your dad yelled at me and stuff? Like they were teenagers and it was so evocative. Right. So, yeah. And, yeah, in that interval, I think Luthen got to know Bix in her more grown up years. That's a really good observation. I like that. Yeah. He's seen her and trusted her. He's been developing her long before Cassian. Yeah. That's really good. And this is the beauty of these kinds of conversations.

[01:07:48] I'd never occurred to you before. Exactly. Exactly. And then just the way that Cass or Luthen is back to sass talking Cassian. Kill me. Kill me or take me in. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, oh, damn. He pulled that one out and like threw it right in his face. Mm-hmm. It was harsh. But see, this is the thing. It's no longer Cassian alone. Yeah. Because remember at the end of the first season, he ships Bix away. Yes. Right. He saves his room.

[01:08:15] And figures she's going to be safe in the fields of whatever it was. Right. Right. Right. Good point. And suddenly she got brought right back. And both Will and Bix are brought into the fight. Both Will and Bix. Yeah. Yep. Good point. And of course, Brasso is no. Yeah. R.I.P. I love Brasso so much. Yeah. And then again, we're seeing these themes of leadership and character strength that I mentioned before. We're seeing that in here.

[01:08:45] Quick, just a couple of weird quick plot points. Obviously, Luthen is living above the shop or in the back of the shop. He must be. Because Clea says to him like, oh, you're up early and he's walking out. And so. Right. Right. And apparently Cassian knows that. Yeah. Or maybe he doesn't. He's just starting there because. It's a couple of years now. That they've been working together. So yeah. Fair point. Fair point. He probably does know that. A quick couple of lore notes. Both. I believe Alicia hunted high and low and I did as well.

[01:09:14] The Darvian medallion that Cassian or Luthen uses as a prop that Cassian refuses to take with the leaves. There's no known Star Wars canon lore connection. It seems like a wholly made up thing for this episode. And then several people on the internet. Yeah. I'm sorry. The internet. The discord caught the scene. And they really linger on one of the items in Luthen shops, which are these big, weird gloves.

[01:09:43] They're gauntlets with claws. And I noticed that too, that we were given a nice shot of them. I thought, okay, when are these going to appear again? And is it relative to the conversation? Is that like some sort of visual metaphor for what's happening between, you know, that they got their claws out for each other. But then something weird happened on my Instagram. I was looking at some Instagram reels because it's my one little, that's like eating chips or candy or something. There they were.

[01:10:13] There was a post about these are Persian gloves. They're a historical thing. It was wild. So again, Providence, the force. I don't know. Could they be from old earth? I don't. Yeah. That's the wrong galaxy. So they probably are not. I'm not going to get into the world building stuff. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I do. All right. Dr. Gorst, Major Partagaz pigeonholes Jung and Hirt.

[01:10:43] He informs them that military intelligence has convinced the emperor to expand Dr. Gorst's techniques into a whole program that's going to be housed in a naval facility there on Coruscant. Partagaz assigns Jung and Hirt to represent ISB's interests. So we got this great little pull aside here. And then there's a, there was a whole bunch of conversation around this as well.

[01:11:09] This is where Lonnie gets the intel that he does. We, we, everybody's pretty sure that he feeds to Luthen who then feeds to Bix and Cassian. Yeah. I think that's, I, it's very, very obscure, but I think that's the logical chain that we can assume.

[01:11:29] And this is something that I think Gilroy and his writer's room, the writers of, of this are very, and I heard this interview with him and it was very interesting talking about some of their process. And some of the tricks of circumstance and timing with the COVID and then the strikes and how they went about stuff.

[01:11:50] But he is very clear about when to put something on the page and puts not something on the page. Yeah. And part of that is, is how he is relating to us as the audience and not treating us, not infantilizing us with over exposition. Sure. And it's much more gratifying to say, Hey, I figured that one out. Exactly. You didn't even have to tell me. Exactly. Not that I did.

[01:12:21] Other people had to tell me, but you know, I don't care. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's why we have a, that's why we have a discord and a podcast. That's why we have a community. Exactly. And I, but I did love how, even though Lonnie was using, you know, he, he's, I, okay. So I think Lonnie is doing two things. One, he doesn't want the extra work. No. So he's bracing here to, to deal with it. Right. Like, Oh, you're junior. You're taking this one. I got too much else I'm doing.

[01:12:47] But at the same time, he sets up hurt for here, whatever, uh, for taking the fall when Gorst is eventually assassinated. Yeah. I hadn't tweaked it at, but it makes a lot of sense. And here's how many people knew about it in advance. So there's only so many holes. Exactly. And he's the junior guy and he's calibrate your enthusiasm. Oh, that was such a magnificent line. So much nicer than Curb It. Yes.

[01:13:16] Much, much more technologically stated. Oh, there's a line, there was a line, uh, I think it was an episode four where, um, Part of Gaz is talking about a buffet of rebel activity. It was just like, Oh, I'm so in love with the, the way that they're writing Part of Gaz. The use of language is delightful. He's so good. But yeah, I mean, this may be, you know, Luthen keeps pushing Lonnie for more intel. Right.

[01:13:43] This may be the time when he pushed too hard and Lonnie reached too far. Well, it was a good thing that Lonnie put somebody else in front of him. He was like, yeah, we were both assigned to it, but I didn't, you know, you can see the logs here. I don't have reports. I'm not, you know, I'm the senior and I'm supervising the junior, but you know, Hey, there's junior guy. I don't know. So you think that maybe Lonnie will take the phone? I mean, here we'll take the phone. Here we'll take. Yeah. Yeah. Lonnie young. Yeah. Yes. Is his name. Yeah. Is the other guy's name.

[01:14:10] So yeah, I think he just, regardless, he distances himself far enough from it. Sure. That if he does take any heat, it's not going to be, he's not going to get executed for it. He's going to be slapped on the wrist for not managing his, his junior. You're second in command. Yeah, exactly. And then again, we have that enthusiasm with here as well, you know, counter counter pointing the Gorman front enthusiasm for wanting to do stuff.

[01:14:36] So we've got a lot of eager and serial as well. We have a lot of eager and excited people who want to get into it. Right. Well, again, each side is dealing with very similar dynamic. Right. All right. Comrade in arms, Vel and Sinta are reunited and confirm details of the Gorman operation. And then part of Gaz confers with Miro about developments on Gorman.

[01:15:04] And he reminds her that she needs to compartmentalize her relationship and her job. So many words. So let's talk about Vel and Sinta in this cafe that's right out of Milan, right out of Yeah. Seriously. Prague, Budapest, Vienna. I've been to cafes that I felt like, I was like, wait, I was there. You were there. I thought I was there. That looks really familiar. I was waiting for the strolling violinist. Yeah, right.

[01:15:31] It was just such a, it's such a beautiful set that they've built for Gorman. And then I know that there's some, there's been some talk about languages on the previous podcast to us. Yes. Yes. The thing that caught me was, so I was doing that whole thing like, oh, that's German. Oh, that's French. But I was also like, oh, that's Yiddish.

[01:15:55] I heard some, what sounded like to me, Yiddish words, which then if you look at textiles and certain things that Jewish communities of that area in time of Europe were involved in, and Yiddish has relations to Germanic languages. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, same roots. No, again, call back to the resistance in the ill. Yeah. A lot of what they did was to help Jewish residents escape. Right.

[01:16:24] And then we have the story, you know, and then the formation of the state of Israel and all that. And I don't want to, I definitely do not want to go into that complex topic. But it just made me think that this, you know, Gilroy is such a voracious reader from what I've heard on interviews. Ah, makes sense. That he's, he's been reading history from, you know, Russia to North Africa, from, you know, England, you know, from, I don't know, I'm sure he's around American history, you know, to, to Far East, you know.

[01:16:54] Oh, clearly. And you could clearly see that heavy European influence of the, that World War II to World War I to II time spanning of the industrial age and the, all of the machinations that were going on. With a dash of cabaret. Yes. Willkommen. So, Varda Sethu and Faye Marseille, the two actors who play Cinta and Val.

[01:17:26] the face acting heartbreakingly beautiful their emotions the declaration well you know to be honest I didn't want to come on this mission without you really? I said the same thing to Luzin oh god I guess it's a dangerous thing to say in the TV world we haven't seen you you come back you express your undying love you're dying I didn't see it coming either

[01:17:55] I totally missed it I was just so happy to see them together I was just so happy to see a reconciliation and that it was so interesting that Cinta she says to Vel later which is wrapped up in the montage scene the way that I've broken up the episode that I forget what I was going to say anyway the point being that oh I know what it was

[01:18:25] you she you Vel know how to change yourself you know how to adapt yourself when you're when you run into these things I don't know how to do that and so I was stuck in this one way of being which was for the cause and nothing else right right and then when she stops and has to it the rest the point that she had to take a time to rest is really really critical to Cinta's development

[01:18:53] because she stopped moving near-death experiences will do that to you and she had time to reflect and it wasn't next mission next mission she wasn't carrying that operational tempo you hear military folks talk about this maintaining this operational tempo and when you come off that tempo you have some downtime you have to build back up to that tempo so that you're at your peak of lethality because you need to be it's just like a

[01:19:22] being at a busy pizza restaurant on Friday night right you know you gotta when you're on you're on and you can get everything done and so when she stops and she starts to reflect on her life and her choices and actually examine her feelings right and well again a case of going slow to go fast yeah that's a really good I didn't think about that that using that interpretation yeah so what's your head canon on

[01:19:51] Tay and Cinta and the whole um I hadn't I had I was still just I've only seen it once so I was just taking stuff in you know on a very fundamental level but reading again people's suggestions later I think this is absolutely brilliant another one of those examples of Gilron saying you don't need to see this you'll figure it out yeah right the negative space between because we saw her in the car with Tay we know that Tay was killed and it makes perfect sense that you gotta make it look like an accident and uh in the process you know

[01:20:21] she got injured yeah exactly something went awry yeah as it as it as it does as things always do uh a couple of things a couple final notes for me the background music there's a piano uh so soulful perfect I've heard cello and some other back so I really want to talk to Mark and Nicole about what's going on from that would be fun that would be good to hear there's some great background use of background music and then for a lot of the scene not every not every camera shot in this scene

[01:20:50] but a lot of the scene they're behind glass and we're seeing people passing in front of them in reflection yeah and then what happens next scene we see Deidre in the reflection of the console and the camera moves along the surface of the reflection and then the door opens and it's very jarring uh but it's just again visually beautiful and there's a there's a cinema there's a visual language that is definitely

[01:21:20] established in this block I can't remember if it's in the first three or not I'll just have to watch the whole season over again and then with your note Hardikaz gently brings her down to earth yes say more on that so she was looking quite I interpreted that she was looking quite pleased with herself uh always a dangerous thing to do if Hardikaz is your and um and that yes you know that that uh her guy Cyril is you know uh uh

[01:21:49] being successful with all of this and rather than he doesn't rebuke her he doesn't uh praise her or anything like that he actually has for the head of the ISB the operational head of the ISB very bad outfit right he has this amazingly human relationship with Deidre he's taken her under his wing he's shepherded her he's she's he looks out after her for her best interests and for his best interests of course

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[01:22:49] if you're going to be an ISB I think you have to have an understanding of human nature yeah yeah and I don't know maybe he had a daughter somewhere or whatever that certainly could be but I I think he's about as protective as a cobra to be perfectly honest he's again very much like Luthin he's wanting to get the best he can out of his tools yes yeah and he sees in her a potential for greatness yeah and anytime he sees her wavering from that he brings her back

[01:23:19] yeah which is why I said he brings her back down right sometimes gently and sometimes with a little shock sometimes you need to be shocked a little bit exactly he even says to her in season one oh god which scene was it but he basically says you know for a he says to her something about a career that is destined for greatness yeah and it was like in one of the open meetings like he was like hmm certainly you know well you know for somebody who has the potential to have an extraordinary career your answer here

[01:23:49] is very mundane or something I forget what the setup was but I but the very first comment he gives to her from that very first meeting when she gets promoted as they're walking down the corridor afterwards is watch your back now does she have to watch her back from everybody else or even possibly from him eventually yeah eventually it's everybody yeah trust no one right I mean it's it's not stated in so many words but I think

[01:24:18] she gets a very clear message of either I succeed or I'm done and everybody is surprised all of her co-workers are surprised that she has not been drummed out of the service following Ferex yes although there is some conversation that you know the next thing she's told to do seems to be a demotion right when in fact it's just the opposite right exactly and it's interesting though I was thinking I was sort of reflecting on that Ferex was not her fault no but she was

[01:24:47] the top official there you know yep doesn't matter what was going on it was your authority it was your command exactly it was your show exactly well let's take another quick break and then we're going to get into the Gorman heist Skolden's party and Bix's revenge buckle up everybody it's going to get rough

[01:25:11] and we're back so let's talk about first the Gorman heist then Skolden's party and then

[01:25:40] Bix's revenge and then we have three pieces of feedback excellent feedback that we've got so we've got we've got to balance both depth and time here so that we we don't break the three hour mark well you may have tempted the the fates I know I know the thing from high top all right carrying on here uh and now ow my cat is eating my hand trying because I'm ow stop

[01:26:09] paying attention to something ow so montage aha Vel and Cinda that's a it's a funny thing to do in television is to have a montage I think there was a Simpsons episode about montages made a musical out of montages if I remember right Vel and Cinda coordinate with the Gorman resistance uh the Gorman front on their plan to expose imperial operations Vel immediately establishes a strict chain sorry my cat is attacking my pencil collection here

[01:26:41] Vel immediately establishes a strict chain of command asserting that they alone will have blasters and setting a firm six minute timeline for the operation the local rebels display a dangerous mix of eagerness and experience after the planning Vel and Cinda share an intimate moment during the execution of the plan all being observed by Cyril and being relayed to ISB headquarters they successfully disable an imperial transport

[01:27:10] and load the weapons according to plan everything collapses when an unexpected civilian appears actually two civilians appear Sam draws a blaster and in the ensuing fight Cinta is shot and killed Vel devastated has to be pulled away and later confronts Sam that's Sam with two M's mind you delivering a blistering monologue okay I want to get the cinematography stuff out of the way really quick right at the top go

[01:27:39] first off the camera work when we're in the training montage there's a little scene that opens it the camera is pulling backwards and giving us a view of the little sand table that they've set up you know to explain everything and then when we cut scenes to the street the camera reverses direction and pushes forward at the same time the transports are moving opposite in the opposite direction as the camera

[01:28:09] so we get this great sense of motion again pushing and pulling through it's really good and then the other I wanted to point out the oner that is a single uncut shot visually right and whether you do that in post or whether you do that in real is always a debate and you know what the difference between live music and you know studio music I guess you could say but there's a great oner of

[01:28:39] when they're unloading the cargo from the transport the very first cargo container that comes off the camera flies in perpendicular to the back of the transport and follows the container as it's pulled off the truck and landed on the ground they open that one up really quick to check the contents close it up and then send it sliding down the stairs where it lands in the mud puddle is then

[01:29:08] picked up and put on the back of the truck and that is all one shot of with the camera sort of hovering up and behind that piece of cargo container as it makes its journey there perfect and again I found myself thinking of hidden passageways yes in Lyon yeah right I thought of the Seine at least the quays along the river there where you have the street on one level and then you have sort of a pedestrian level down below yeah yeah yeah

[01:29:38] so right what are your thoughts on the heist overall which one there were three yeah you're talking about the Gorman heist yeah yeah the Gorman heist the overall everything from the training montage through everything on the table training montage vel and Sinta and the actual heist itself well I mean it certainly shows

[01:30:07] the challenges when you're trying to pull together a rebellion of any kind right it also does an excellent job of highlighting the difference between committed operatives and beginners that in the end they don't even have the same motives entirely you know these operatives are just wanting to expose what the empire

[01:30:36] is doing and then expecting that there will be an uproar throughout the galaxy and the empire will be brought to heal and so on and so on vel and Sinta intend to upend the social orders and you know you have to ask the question so why did Luthan feel it was worthwhile to send them there from the beginning I think he really wants a train wreck right right

[01:31:06] as does uh Deidre so this this is oil and water and I'm sort of uncertain just to how successful they the Gorman group feels that they were I know how Vel felt about it we'll talk about that in a minute um so I I'll be very interested I don't know if we've ever come back to Gorman or we just hear oh yeah

[01:31:36] about you know consequent actions and whatever um you know how will it have changed the Gorman people right how will it have changed Val this is uh I'm thinking of Aldani and um that how it was it was called an announcement like that's what the episode was thing up to this point this group has been able to accomplish um but it was almost exclusively

[01:32:06] reliant upon themselves with the addition of one or two locals you know that one imperial officer who fell in love with an Aldani woman right okay yeah I'm in um again showing there have to be strong personal motivation right to be absolutely willing and they expected a level of trust and obedience that I think was a little naive them expecting it right

[01:32:36] particularly with these wrong crews Cassian saw it from the very beginning and said you know no they're not ready right we this this is going to be you know bloodbath and interestingly enough it wasn't a bloodbath in the sense of at least yet you know hundreds killed but it took out one of Luthan Luthan's best opportunities so it was a bloodbath because if you look at the percentages how many people does Luthan have and it goes back to what you know the point that

[01:33:06] you've picked up on quite early which is you know go slow to go fast right they went fast and somebody died right and not you know the intended you know if their deaths they're going to be you know indigenous as it were right right right it wasn't one of the operatives this the highly trained operatives who was

[01:33:45] the you know brick in the wall rebellion you know one at a time and Matt had talked about how you know you've got to agree to be you got to agree strategy is like okay I we both agree that this is an objective and then we have to understand and agree on the cost of achieving that objective and I'm not even sure they're agreeing on objectives that's and that's what Cassian was like this is a mess I am

[01:34:15] not a part of this yeah yeah so why did Luthan push it I mean I think he's hoping that by pushing and pushing there will be the kind of acceleration and explosion that he's looking for yep because they need to I think they're on the precipice of you know they've got too much information they've got too many operations there's too much going on and we can't we've got to actually take it

[01:35:03] even though Vel continually says if we don't like it we can step back but they never ran into a serious enough problem to trigger their concern until they ran into it and I just have to wonder from all this experience how firm are the bricks of Gorman going to be after this right and that's I think again Cassian's assessment is that they're not hard enough of a people no they're not not so much that they don't have

[01:35:33] the capacity right but they're still hoping for reconciliation that is their bottom line and I do not blame them right they don't know yet we want weapons to protect ourselves that is a passive stance even before that we want the world to see what this is really about and of course it's not really about this at all it's about something that nobody has oh ISB is running a shadow government

[01:36:02] yeah no no no no no you're yeah it's about the destruction of a planet yeah and that is just so many miles outside nobody has seen calculation at this point yeah nobody has so I'm Dedra and Krennic and probably Pardigas yeah I've got like three four notes going on here on the piece of paper I'm thinking of

[01:36:31] Canary and when Cassian is a young boy when we see that big pit mine that they dug out right on Canary whatever they did to Canary to cause sort of a ecological whatever good catch and then of course we have Narcina Narcina five right where they you know the seriously Freedy and I forget the other guy's name talk about how the empire is you know poisoned everything and so there's no good fishing or anything like

[01:37:19] and and you know and you know know know there's a rhodonium is throughout the galaxy right now right there is a not not rhodonium itself I'm using the metaphor of right yeah yeah yeah right and he's he needs that spark and that that thing that's going to burn and burn brightly that's going to cause the chain reaction of all of the other places sure and the thing is why did he think that he could find that spark in one of the richest and most comfortable cultures

[01:37:48] in the galaxy the more you have lose the less you're likely to become involved and if you can see if I'm on a media you know I'm on a middle class planet and the high status folks are getting it yeah if they're getting it I know I'm getting it sure but he can't do it that way you can't start at that top you know any power over authority knows that the most dangerous

[01:38:18] person to their authority is the one who has nothing to lose Gormans have everything to lose and they're just not there yet and that's what Cassian tried to tell Luthan and Luthan did not want to hear it he had his own ideas he's getting frantic I think because he knows there are big things happening right he doesn't know what they are but he he's desperately

[01:38:48] scrambling to try and figure this out he's no longer in in command and in control you're pretty good co-pilot you know that oh bless you you are an inspiring conversationalist David come on and and the depth and the richness of what we're talking about right it just keeps you know producing stuff it does right it's inspiring you can I know when I'm inspired by a show is because like blog posts and video analyses and side conversations are just sparking off of me

[01:39:18] and yeah yeah yeah yeah completely like if I could do nothing the irony is right now in my life it's like super busy come on man can I catch a break and just focus on and or for four weeks well sometimes what that means is you don't spend any peripheral time you know doom scrolling no no I'm at an operational tempo at a very high order exactly and I thank you and all three of the squadron for doing that

[01:39:47] John's idea initially and it really it was like oh we got that it was like oh it was a game changer for all of us you know when you when somebody drops that one little thing and then it just everything underneath that you've been struggling with suddenly reorders and reorients and you're like yeah this is true this is a kind of truth right and I think that's what that Luthan is also looking for is you know that thing that's going to set these dominoes in motion but he has to listen

[01:40:17] to his people yeah right because you can't want it so much that you think oh well all just give extra nudge yeah yeah yeah you've got to be willing to hear the actual situation on the ground why else did you send Cassian in the first place right right and then and he even says to Clea you know this isn't you know this piece that we're looking at it you know it's garbage it's no good you know and you already have other operatives and he even had doubts about Cassian's report

[01:40:52] no matter how many pages of a report that Cassian wrote exactly Luthan was looking for a single answer and when he did not get that answer inside of that box he sent two other people some of his best people to get the answer he wanted and he lost one of them so let's talk a little bit about the heist aspect there I thought it was really interesting that the guy who gets into the scuffle with Sam is the guy from the meeting yes

[01:41:21] I want to know the backstory of that hand on forearm little thing that they do it's kind of like a raised fist or a V sign that embodiment of your commitment whoever designed that and then the

[01:41:51] would would be developed not some weird you know strange twisting dancing motion of something that no human human motion and oftentimes is efficient and boiled down to its bare essential and now you're making me realize that Luther approached the wrong people on Gorman he shouldn't approach the open hearted ones you should approach the ones you signaled with their fist check you out I like that

[01:42:20] well I'm a symbol thinker yeah and so you gave it to me and I just gave it back so then he interesting that was interesting I thought it was really interesting that Sinta did some real badass parkour she sure did she rested up

[01:42:50] I guess and why she didn't break both ankles with that first jump I really don't know she's good but then we know somebody pointed this out to me on blue sky as well it's been talked about on the discord is that it's Cinta who reassigns Drina who is the driver who then is the one that shepherds the old woman away who's coming home with her shopping which then takes Vel out of pocket which then puts Sam out of pocket which then leads

[01:43:19] to Cinta being shot now there's some great visuals foreshadowing in the montage there are two back to back shots where Cinta is going out to check the placement of where she's going to put the charges and Vel is in the alleyway and they pause and they look at each other and we're looking over Vel shoulder at Cinta then we cut and we see I forget the exact order maybe the opposite way around there's a previous shot where Vel

[01:43:49] is in the street and we're looking back and we see Sam behind her so what these two shots do together is triangulate Cinta's final position when Chekhov's blaster goes off and there's this one long look back Vel and Cinta look at each other and Cinta standing where she's ultimately going to meet her fate exquisite visual storytelling again unbelievably fine okay

[01:44:19] let's talk about the kiss it was earned that was an earned kiss I was so and and I didn't even it took like I had to go after the episode I

[01:44:50] even think the society wide impact potential of it yeah well I mean things have moved along significantly not enough but enough so that we wouldn't think of it in the moment because they set it up so well beautiful yeah we've seen their relationship as comrades in arms seeing their relationship as you

[01:45:21] one kiss before dying. We got to have that. And let's listen to Vel's monologue to Sam after all of this has gone down. Really heartbreaking. Look at me. Look at me. There's no place to hide. Look at me.

[01:45:49] I'm not going to say remember this because I don't have to. This is on you now. This is like skin. You're taking her with you wherever you go for the rest of your useless life. Don't you look away from me. I'm sorry. She was a warrior. She was everything that you have daydreamed about. She was a blooded,

[01:46:20] fearless warrior whose loss will be mourned in ways that you will never understand. She was a miracle. And you? To die like this because of you? Some whining. Simpering. Foolish child. Don't you dare cry.

[01:46:48] You'll make up for this forever. Your kitty knows that you're distressed. She came for a pet. Kitties know those things. Oh, my God. What a scene. Yeah. Yeah. What I see in Val's cruelty is the depth of her grief.

[01:47:15] And I'm sorry that she had to express it that way. I understand why she needed to express it that way. But in a nutshell, this is exactly what Cassian saw. Right. And I think now Val is realizing. But she doesn't know that Cassian was there on a pre-scouting mission. You don't think she does? Maybe she doesn't. All right. That would be,

[01:47:44] if I were an operative sent in after the fact, oh, Cassian did a shit job. I didn't like his answer. Now I want you to go in and give the answer that I want. I'm not taking that mission. Well, yeah. Yeah. No. I mean. Yeah. And then you don't want that cell, right? That's if she, if one of them gets captured, you don't have the information to trace back to the other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So whichever, whichever way it was, I'm wondering if she's now rethinking Luthen to some. Hmm.

[01:48:14] Hmm. Not recognize. I mean, also I'm sure, you know, self-reproach. Why did I even include this person? Because I knew he was a weak point at risk. Hmm. Why did we risk our lives for this kind of, what she sees as incompetence? Right. That's going to lead to some bad outcomes. At the same time, what did Val and Sinta do

[01:48:43] to earn anybody's trust around that table? Fair. Absolutely nothing. Yeah. They came in as goddesses and said, we're here to make sure you do it right. And the only way you can do it right is if you do exactly what you tell us. Hmm. Well, that does nothing to reassure people. Hmm. To link them to you in any fashion. Particularly since again, as we discussed earlier, this is, this is power over.

[01:49:12] It is absolutely power over at its most devastating. Hmm. Hmm. And Val is also devastated. Hmm. But the recognition that there are two different objectives going on here. I mean, the tactics, they're agreeing on the tactics, Hmm. but not the objectives. I'm finally beginning to learn the difference between all these things. Hmm. And, um, again, at the same time, this is the risk that everybody takes anyway. Hmm.

[01:49:42] And Sinta knew it as well as. Right. Yep. Aren't people going to die by, by intent as well as by accident? Hmm. Hmm. So, I think the reason why the grief was so profound was that she'd finally got her back. Right. Yeah. And now she's lost her. Screw you, Tony Gilroy. Yeah. And keep doing it to us because we love to feel the feelings. What, what can she do? Yeah.

[01:50:10] But pour out all of that grief and sorrow and anger and regret on what she perceives to be as the cause of it all. But I'm sorry. He was just a link in a cause of shame. Right. Yep. Because it was the weakest link. Yep. And he broke. And if, if Drina, if Sinta hadn't moved, you know, like you can't, and you can play that game forever. It's a downward spiral and you can, you have to stop it at some point. And I'm not going to say Val does not. Deserve her grief. Right. No, no.

[01:50:39] She will go through her process and I honor whatever her process is. But I kind of began to wonder, is Luther going to see loving connections and it is as an advantage in his people? From now on. He doesn't have love in his life. No. And, and he even says, you know, you know, whatever, I woke up to a calculation, however many years ago that I have to burn my humanity. Yes. Yes. And humanity.

[01:51:09] We are a commute. We are no matter how, uh, extrovert or introvert you are, whether you're, you know, you want to live in a cabin in the woods by yourself, or you want to live in the, in the most densest city. The fact is, is that we are a species that needs connection with each other. We're in relation to each other all the time, whether I'm projecting it and moving away, or whether I'm in it. It's still, there's still a tether between us and our community. Mm-hmm.

[01:51:39] And to some degree, you know, not questioning Lutheran's orders. Mm-hmm. Did they really not see? That there was somebody at that table who really wasn't on board. Yeah. And it's interesting because when Vel challenges them, nobody says, yeah, we'll follow, Ryle, Ryle is, Ryle is, I, nothing. Yeah. And he says, when are you thinking about doing this? Nobody agreed. Nobody said, yes, ma'am,

[01:52:09] we'll follow your orders. Exactly. They just, they still think it's a collaboration instead of. Yeah. A top-down operation. Right. I have to really, too, the, uh, acknowledge Sam, the actor, whoever played Sam, the, I can just feel. Heart-rending. Those hot, those hot tears of shame pouring out of him. Yes. I really felt for him because that moment when you're, he's so gutted in the actor's portrayal,

[01:52:39] the sobs, the heaving sobs. Incredible. But he's having that profound realization that he is not who he thought he was. And doesn't Vel just nail that to the wall? Boom. And I'm pretty sure this is the first time he's ever killed a human. Absolutely. It is. Moreover, he did so accidentally. And it was one of his own supposed comrades. Yep. And so the shame that is,

[01:53:05] that he's feeling about all of that is just so pouring out of him. I'll be surprised if he survives. He's going to be, survives or he's going to take it and wear it like skin and become one of the most ruthless and effective Gorman front fighters that they have. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. We don't know. We probably won't know. Like, you know, the way they're telling the stories. Yeah. I think he was more of the, you know, the, the fist bumper than, than the open heart. Right.

[01:53:35] Group. Right. So he might eventually come around that way, but. We have to see how he internalized it. That's a really interesting story too. Exactly. How does his own heart now internalize that? If, if I learned next episode that he hung himself, I would be in no way surprised. And I could equally, I think there's the spectrum is that's one end. And then the other spectrum is he becomes a death wielding, you know, stone cold, stone cold killer.

[01:54:03] The reality is it'd be somewhere in between. Right. But this is a drama. So yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. All right. Anything else on, on this? Uh, I just thought that writing was so superb, from. monologue. Stunning. Yeah. Absolutely stunning. Um, I, I hope that none of the dialogue writers have ever had the kind of experience. Right. Gave them experience or knowledge. Right. Of just exactly how devastating those were. They're, they're hitting some deep truths. Uh,

[01:54:33] this writer's room. It's pretty wild. Uh, right. Let's go to skull dunes party. We start with the senators taking their oaths of office, which disturbs mon Mothma clay and Luthen order an Uber XL and head to skull dunes party where I hope I didn't make you spit your water. Absolutely not. I'm fine. Uh, John does that. Everyone's like, oh man, I'll, he'll say something to make me laugh. He gives you spit takes. Okay. Uh,

[01:55:02] where parent and Mon Motha also arrive and they're greeted by bail or Ghana Luthen and clay work the crowd. While Lonnie hurt and lagrette enjoy the excesses of skull dunes party. And Mon Mothma questions Luthen about Vell out of an abundance of care for her cousin. Clay scoops up and then suspecting Lonnie to aid in her removal of the bug from the tinny and codex. And because it is such a festive evening,

[01:55:31] it turns out that director credit is there. Oh boy. Skulldun introduces Luthen to him and Mon Mothma and Krennic have a little bit about, uh, have a bit of a bout of verbal fencing. You could say so. Uh, I want to play this clip. Uh, this is a, uh, last clip. Senator Mothma, parent further. I'm sure you've met before. Oh, yes. I've been a guest at her committee several occasions. How pleasant to see you free of the witness stand.

[01:56:02] What festive evening this has become. How awesome is that writing? Brilliant line. I'm glad that, uh, Pendergast is not the only one who gets the brilliant lines. This was such a slayer. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Couldn't even feel it going in. And we have a great, uh, email, uh, feedback later that we're going to get into about some of what, um, uh, Krennic is laying down about like, do words have any meaning? And, you know, you're a rebel, my terrorist kind of stuff.

[01:56:32] So we'll get into that when we get into the back real quick on a lower question, bail or Ghana. Um, uh, Alicia wrote in a little note for me. We hear, uh, about Leah's probably still on Alderaan, but should be headed to Coruscant next year. So that'll be two BBY in book canon. Mon has already met Leah this year, but that clearly happened off screen, you know, assume did. And then, uh, next year she expects to see Leah,

[01:57:01] uh, at Senate, assuming that we have those, uh, story elements there. And then there is this great scene of the oath keeper who is giving the oath to all of the senators and their investiture. And, uh, there's a quote that, uh, Alicia, or Alicia sent me a link for the Wookieepedia page, which we're relying on a lot for, um, uh, our, our primary encyclopedia source for all this stuff. Uh, and there's other sites too,

[01:57:29] but that's the one like you often end up when you're on your initial search. Of course. And, um, that the oath of office has a provision in it. That is specifically, that specifically says that you'll not use your Senate offices for the purposes of espionage. Dun, dun, dun. So Mon Mothma, I think might be violating that, that, that tenant. So do we think that's a new addition or do we think it's always been, I can't tell you the lore. I, I,

[01:57:56] I have almost next to no lore knowledge of the Imperial set. So I'm with you on that one. So, uh, Alicia and our listeners right in. Uh, I love the paparazzi droid that we get, we got the disco ball droid and now we get a paparazzi droid. And, uh, there was an interesting question when Legrette, who's one of the third, that third ISB officer shows up, uh, you know, and meets up with Lonnie and, and here, here, here, I think it's here.

[01:58:25] It says, uh, like where, Oh, I forget the exact line, but they ask him about where, where his companion is. Like, where's your, you know, male buddy. I have buddy in quotes on here. I don't know why. So I don't know what they were pointing to there, but it was a very pointed line. And so I was wondering like, what Legrette's domestic situation is, if they were hinting something along those lines. Could be, I can't help you there. Uh, I love that Clea didn't have a plan and she was winging it.

[01:58:55] Isn't that often the case? Because of course they had not planned ahead for this. And I think that's why the two of them together make, are an excellent pairing because Clea is all about the details and Luthen is all about the, uh, uh, revising. Right. Right. And now Clea has got to take a leave from his book. Right. Uh, I'm just rearranging some notes here. Cause I,

[01:59:24] you had a note out of order. Uh, I wanted to add a couple more, uh, lore bits. There's no lore referencing Luthen's ring, the pre Carvean ring from the third millennia, which actually turns out to be from a lot, the lost empire era. So no lore on that. And then there's no references to the battle of Carmeen, which they talk about, which is where they're fencing. And I couldn't find any lore. Pardon me about the Tinian codex.

[01:59:53] So all of this seems to be fresh for the show. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Um, what do you think? Do we, should we read Kito's, um, feedback now or should we save it for the feedback section? Let's save it for the feedback section. I think that would be, we'll take a break before we, yeah. When we, when we cut, um, but, um, I, it was, I have to laugh. Okay. So just the editing, the tension between the party and the heist, it was just beautifully, you know, you know,

[02:00:23] and Clea, you know, hand her bleeding. She's trying to, you know, twist the key thing. Like all of that was fantastic. Um, when she forgot to bring her can of W. Unfortunately, I think the aroma would have been noticeable and out of place. About killing credit. Um, um, it makes me think of a question that comes up around war. Oh,

[02:00:49] should we have just assassinated the number one leader or the number two leader? And there's this whole, there's a, there's a whole debate about the assassination of, uh, Reinhard Heydrich, who was, uh, sort of the second in command of, uh, below, uh, Hitler, who was assassinated in, by Czechoslovakian partisans. And there's this, oh, should we have done that? Or should we, you know? So there's this whole interesting thing of like, oh shit, what if we had killed Krennic? Would the Death Star have, in retrospect, in retrospect, right?

[02:01:18] Of course it would. Sure. It's, you know, again, it's, it's not the individuals, it's the system. Right. Right. And the system is composed of people who, who are individuals. Right. And cooperate with it. Yeah. But, um, that's kind of the more along the lines of the solitary hero trope. Right. The solitary hero taking out the solitary big bad. Right. Everybody gets to dance with Ewoks. Yup, yup.

[02:01:49] Yup, yup, yup, yup, Let's not. I'm not slamming Ewoks. No, no, no, no, no, Ewoks. No, and I don't want to get into an Ewok accent contest. No, no, no, no, no. All right. Well, if you don't, I mean, great scene. I don't think there's a lot to, to dig into in depth here. We'll get into what, what Krennic was saying. When we get to Quito's, uh, uh, email. Yeah, I really, I really, for once, I enjoyed Kalea, um, struggling. Yeah. Which isn't, which is not nice to say.

[02:02:19] I admire her improvisation. Doing something. Right. But the bringing Lonnie over to it as, as a, as a, um, but how much, you know, Luthen was annoyed with, uh, Cassian for knocking on his door. Right. How much has she now exposed Lonnie? I mean, come on. If, if that happens, we're going to do more times. People are going to start thinking. So great. Let's talk about Bix's revenge. Oh, yes. Uh, earlier we see Bix taking down her meds from their hiding place.

[02:02:48] Cassian wakes to find Bix looking out the window and she tells him that the signal light is flashing, meaning that they need to make contact with Luthen. Bix is adamant that whatever the next mission is, she's going on it. Dr. Gorst returns to his office in the new facility. He's brought himself a little treat to snack on later. Bix is waiting for him. She straps him into the chair, puts him in, puts the headset on him, sets the controls to maximum. And as she leaves, she shoots the guard.

[02:03:17] She meets up with Cassian who triggers the bomb, which destroys part of the naval facility, presumably to cover their tracks and hide evidence. Not to mention, you know, spreading Gorst's body all over the floor. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Like, yeah, for sure. Which means that if, since she's in this mode, she doesn't have the satisfaction of knowing that he actually will have to live forever. Right. Forever is a very short amount of time in this instance. So, uh,

[02:03:45] you have things to say about Bix's quote unquote rehabilitation. Yeah. This is the whole thing about they, they finally recognized if they want to be together, they have to work together. Mm-hmm. And in doing so found what an incredible team they are. Mm-hmm. I mean, if you think about it, we see these three heists. I, I think of them as three heists.

[02:04:15] Aldani. Gorman, Gorman, Gorman hardly a success. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, what are the three heists? Wait, sorry, what are they? Sorry, the, the, the Gorman, uh, Gorman's trying to. Right. Heist the middle military material. Um, Clea having to hike. Oh, got it. Okay, right. I gotcha. The, the, uh, get the bug out. Yeah. Okay. I got you now. And now this heist in a way is Bix reclaiming her agency. Got it.

[02:04:43] And also removing Gorse from the table, which let me tell you, I think is no small thing. Great. Uh, and why we don't see any of Gorse technology in obviously films that were in, in television shows that were made before this, but we've removed him from, from timeline now. So it makes sense that we don't see any of Gorse technology in future. Yeah. Instead we have yet another joy, the, the beeping joy that looks like something from the dentist office coming

[02:05:12] into lay a cell and then very first movie. That's about, that's about the extent. Yeah. And if they destroyed that facility and all his research and all the, you know, a bunch of the materials and stuff like that. So, yeah. But I'm so struck by the struggles and the scrambles and the first two heists, um, you know, they were improvising. They were from like Bix and Cassian knew exactly what they were doing. They had it timed to the second and they walked in there and owned it.

[02:05:41] She didn't hesitate to shoot that guard. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. They were so clear. And I hadn't thought of this at first, but again, from the discord discussion, it seems pretty clear to me in retrospect that this was Luthen's way of bringing Bix back into it. Right. Yep. Absolutely. At first I said, Oh, kind of jazz handy. You know, how do they know this and that? The other thing. Well, Lonnie did tell it to, no, we didn't actually see that. Luthen said, okay, here's a chance for Bix. Right.

[02:06:11] To reclaim her agency again from his deep knowledge of human trauma and drug use and all the rest of it. And also from Cassian banging on this, you know, if you want me, you got to have her and she needs to be healthy and active now. And it was, it was an excellent upbeat ending. I was a little worried that it was not going to go this way. And very pleased. We kind of had a downbeat on three with Mon Mothma trying to lose herself from

[02:06:41] the sort of pain of what's going on all around her. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, is this going to clear her altogether of her PTSD? Probably not, but it does get them over the hump of don't protect me. Let me have agency. Let me participate. She does the infiltration. She does all the work. Cassian's waiting for her outside. He says, this is yours.

[02:07:09] And then she nods to him like you can blow it now. Exactly. And he has his satisfaction. Exactly. As her lover who saw her suffering, he could do, you know, she had to do it about it. And yet he had this satisfaction of just blowing it all up so that nobody else would ever have to suffer that way again. Right. It was, it was perfect. It was just magnificently planned. And I don't usually keep praise upon such violent behavior.

[02:07:39] I have to ask you, you know, we, we, we have a couple of diagnostic or frameworky kind of things. And around the low rounds, we have the shippy test and we have the Lopez test. We have the Pukila scale, which measures relative violence as from the rings of power season one, plus or minus. Where is this season so far falling on your, the scale of your namesake?

[02:08:09] Well, I find it acceptable because you're still here. I know I'm still here. I'm podcasting. Clearly I feel some enthusiasm for it all. Right. I hope it comes through. The nature of the violence is not gory. I did not like the whole, in fact, I had to stop watching it from season one, the whole scene where Gorse put thing on her. Right.

[02:08:36] That kind of psychological trauma induced. No, no, I did not like that. Right. But for the rest of it, within the context, you know, this is a rebellion, you know, there's going to be violence. They're not being spattery. Mm hmm. With that one exception so far, they're not being the psychological terror. They have had very few jump scares. You know, these are all the sorts of things that I really don't like.

[02:09:07] Okay. So, and, and any of the violence that's present is often set up in advance. I wasn't expecting Scented to be shot, but you know, with a bunch of dodgy people who are doing this for the first time, and yes, one person with a gun that shouldn't have. Um, you know, these, this is going to happen. So I'm, I'm not good at assigning numbers and scales. Okay. I was going to think if it's a plus one. Yeah, that sounds about right.

[02:09:36] That sounds about right. Yeah. Sorry, Marilyn, what were you saying? No. Um, just that I think it was, it, it was all suited to the plot, to the context and to the characters. Right. Right. And at the end of the day, it's the story and how they handle the characters that are most important to me. Speaking of which, there's one other thing we haven't really touched upon yet, but when Cyril was, only one. Well, sorry.

[02:10:06] Only one that I have on my list. Got it. Fair point, David. Thank you. Um, when I found myself wondering, we saw Cyril watching the whole heist on Gorman and reporting to, to Deidre and so forth. They make a point of showing him looking pretty horrified by Sinta being shot and literally turning away from what was going on.

[02:10:36] And I suddenly began to wonder, is he even suspecting at this point that he's being used? And if he ever does realize that, which is what part of gas told, uh, Deidre, like you, you, you've got to compartmentalize, you got a box. You got to put a box around Cyril that he'll never understand the true scope of this all the way to the Death Star. Right. Like he's, this is one,

[02:11:04] he gets to play at spy, but he can't ever understand the full reach of what's going on here. Well, he lived through that whole riot on Ferris and saw that, yes, people can get killed in this. Twice. He's had twice, two, uh, two quite involved encounters on Ferris actually. And given his somewhat rigid nature, that, which does not bend will break. And I really,

[02:11:32] I wondered what the showrunners wanted us to take away from that scene. It's interesting because I have a little different headcanon for it as well. Oh, well, please tell me. I thought it was more of just the, um, I don't know that he could see who got shot or necessarily put two and two together about, cause he kept saying, I can't, you know, shots fired. I can't see. Right, right, right, right. Move. And, uh, I think it was more just the, the,

[02:12:00] the adrenaline rush wearing off and that he sort of left there in that state of, you know, and he's so happy and so excited to be doing, you know, this kind, this kind of operation, this kind of spy stuff. Sure. Sure. And he's been keyed up. And so I think he's, um, it just sort of washed out. The adrenaline has gone away and now he's in the crap in a, in a post action crash. Interesting. So interesting. Now I know there's a, there are, uh,

[02:12:30] serial fans out there, Alicia, Alicia, uh, who are hoping for his redemption arc. Um, and there are a lot of people who are like, no, we don't see it. So who knows? Like Gilroy could do something. We don't know. He can do all kinds of things. Yeah. We should stop saying Gilroy because it's a team of writers, right? So, you know, Gilroy and go. Sure. I'm not sure he has enough, flexibility to have a redemption. It's a question, isn't it?

[02:13:00] Um, and what would it take for him to come around? Well, if he ever learns that Deidre has been using him as a tool, I don't want to be anywhere near it when the explosion happens. And we had the indication though, because she said, I had you followed. Yes. And some people interpret that as, Oh, that's really kinky. Yeah. I was the one that was saying,

[02:13:27] and others have interpreted as you did. Mm hmm. Okay. Yeah. setting that aside. And when he says to her, um, I hope you won't be offended if I say this has been the best day of my life. And all she can come up with is, well, I I'm happy that you're happy. Ian had a great comment about that in the episode five podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

[02:13:54] he is a damaged soul and he thinks he's finally found a woman who is his damage. Give him something that he wants. She's as damaged as he is just in a different direction. And she is everybody's controlling as his mother. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And as long as the orders she gives him, however, they're couched, follow along with his own desires. Mm hmm. Everything's fine.

[02:14:23] But I'm really beginning to think that this incident has led him to start thinking about, do I, is this really the right objective? Cause I mean, sure. He's been all about law enforcement for a while and he saw, you know, blood on the streets of Farrick's and all the rest of it. Now he's in control of, you know, statistics and whatnot. That's his safe place. Mm hmm. Right. Order. Yeah. Order and discipline. He even turns a little fondue fork when it's, uh, Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[02:14:53] So now he's seeing. I think Deidre even says like, oh yeah, he's got promoted twice. And obviously now he's head of a thing. So he thrives in this world of, uh, of, you know, ordering and cleaning this information and structuring data in this way. So, yeah, you're right. That's a really good observation. And when he first worked for the corporation security, he was so, you know, there is nothing more important than establishing the authority. I think he's beginning to question that. Okay.

[02:15:24] All right. And we shall see. To be seen. We shall see. Uh, the only other thing I wanted to point on this, on the, um, cinematography was this. There's tons of reflections. And when Gorst is writing in the elevator up, there's all kinds of reflections. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. now that you've mentioned, I'm thinking back to some things and I definitely remember those reflections. Right. All right. We're two hours and 15 on a, on the raw recording. We've got three, uh, hefty feedbacks, emails.

[02:15:53] So we're going to, uh, take a very quick break. And then when we come back, we're going to talk about those. And we're back. All right.

[02:16:22] First up for feedback is, Sarah, AKA Angwa Lupin on the discord. And, uh, I'm going to speed read these because we've, we've got to keep it moving. Hi, it's Sarah Angwa Lupin on the discord. Hey, I just repeated myself. Forgive me for the cross, uh, fandom references, but I wanted to bring up something from Tolkien's body of work that I think he has direct bearing on and or and the rebellion as a whole, especially the early rebellion. First off, I'm going to open.

[02:16:51] Thank you for writing in. Thank you for writing a blog post, but never apologize for crossing fandoms in the lore hounds community. Hello. That's what we do. You're home. You've come home to yourself. You have come home. Uh, and I just gave you a Star Wars, a Star Trek reference too. Uh, yeah, well, we're good. We've got some Trek stuff coming up this year too. Tolkien espouses two distinct, maybe you should read. Can you, do you have it open? Can you read? Yeah. Cause I'm going to butcher the, uh,

[02:17:21] the Tolkien pronunciations. Tolkien espouses two distinct concepts of hope in his mythos called Amdior and Estelle. Amdior is hope based in reality or hope where there is reason to have hope. While Estelle is hope based in faith or hope beyond all reason, or as I like to call them, hope in light and hope in darkness. That's again, ongoing talking.

[02:17:50] The former is what we mostly think of when we think, use the word hope in English, but I think the concept of Estelle is particularly relevant to rebellions. I, and I quite agree. Estelle is the hope that keeps you going when all hope is lost. It's the hope that makes you continue to do the right thing. Even when as Tolkien puts it, no songs will be sung of you hereafter. God, just anyway. And this, and to think that this was born out of some of his experiences in world war one.

[02:18:19] And when he was facing the same thing, just enough to really grapple with it, but not suffer the, the devastatingness of it. Right. He, he was able to step back just enough. Yeah. I mean, he suffered the devastating loss of two of his. Absolutely. Right. Which piled on top of the loss of his mother. Right. And earlier his father. So he definitely knew. Experiencing the horrors of trench warfare and.

[02:18:46] And did his best to ensure that songs would be sung of you hereafter. By publishing the poetry of one of those two friends. And by writing Lord of the Rings. So, yeah, definitely there. It's the hope that carried Frodo through Mortar. Even when, as he said, no memory of grass nor flower is left to me. There's some inbuilt Catholicism in the strict definition of Estelle, but frankly, I don't think it's relevant, which is interesting because, um,

[02:19:15] this is Marilyn talking now. Um, I'm not sure there, how much Catholicism there is in that necessarily because faith in the hope of things unseen is certainly Christian. I take the whole thing of Estelle to be, there is no promise that this will come about, but I'm going to live in the hope when Aragorn is dying. He says, you know, behold,

[02:19:44] we are not bound forever to the circles of the world and beyond them may be, may be more than three. So it's definitely something that is not grounded in certainty, which supposedly the Catholic faith provides. Um, anyway, sorry, Tolkien scholar. I didn't resist. My apologies. I'm going, this is your interpretation and I will come back to it now. It is very clearly the hope that motivates most of the characters in Andor. And I absolutely agree.

[02:20:15] Luthan is explicit about this in season one, when he says, I burn my life for a sunrise. I'll never get to see boy, that's going to be on t-shirts and you know, I'm waiting for the tattoos and all the rest of it come forth. We see it as season two progresses, becoming much more strongly a motivation for Cassian. We see it in saw, we see it in Clea. I expect we'll see it with Vel now. And Moan is heading in that direction as well. None of them expect to see that sunrise,

[02:20:43] but they must reach for hope anyway, or they would stop doing what they are doing. It reaches its ultimate expression in the famous line from Cassian in Rogue One. Jyn actually, but yeah. Yes. I do believe it is. Jyn who says this, rebellions are built on hope. She does say it to Cassian though. And maybe it sets his mind remembering a few things. Then Anguys sends in a second email, Nemec, how could I forget my boy Nemec? Yeah,

[02:21:12] I was thinking about this the whole time I was reading your post, Anguys. So I'm not surprised that you sent a second one in. In my defense, my head is very much in season two right now. Definitely. Definitely. Estelle is a very good definition of his, Nemec's manifesto. It's written into the very soul of it. Nemec has no reason to believe that the rebellion will defeat the empire. He has no reason to believe the rebellion will happen at all. All evidence points to the contrary. But Nemec has hope.

[02:21:42] Hope that, there are whole armies, battalions that have no idea that they've already enlisted in the cause. Close quote. I love that part of manifesto. Hope that, one single thing will break the siege. Close quote. Hope that everything he does will bring about that sunrise. Even if he never gets to see it. Hope beyond reason. That is what Estelle is. And I absolutely agree with that. Remember this. Try.

[02:22:12] But it is, I think, equally clearly not the hope that Leia references when she is handed by the Death Star plans at the end of Rogue One. That is, Amdior. What Cassian has done, Cassian and all the rest of the crew of Rogue One, is turn Estelle, hope in darkness, into Amdior, hope in light. They have given the rebellion reason to have hope based in reality, instead of hope based solely on faith. And that, I think, is a worthy story to tell.

[02:22:40] And one we should keep with us as Andor becomes increasingly grim. Hope is a light in dark places. Absolutely. I'm there. A hundred percent. I'm sorry that this email ended up so long. Feel free to edit if you want. I'm not, I would not take out a single word. I don't think David would either. Do not apologize. Sarah, Angua Lupin. It's a Discworld reference. It absolutely is. And Angua is one of my favorite Discworld characters. Speaking of bringing in other universes, PS,

[02:23:10] I am physically incapable of talking about Star Wars without referencing Rebels. So, I think Alicia probably appreciates that. So, Estelle is the hope. Hera references when she says, quote, we have hope things will get better, close quote, in season one of Rebels, that is. Amdior is the hope Ezra gives the galaxy when he yeets Thrawn in the seventh fleet off the board in season four. I don't expect you to include this. Well, I think it absolutely belongs here.

[02:23:39] I've only recently discovered the term yeet and I enjoy it very much. And for those of you who don't know what that means, it basically means tossing somebody out. Yeah. Tossing. Yeah. The Prancing Pony podcast uses the term yeet. Okay. A lot. So, that's how I know it. Yeah. This is just a beautifully put and beautifully written. And I loved the second email about Nemec. And then this idea, I mean, again, we are not a podcast about current politics.

[02:24:08] We talk about politics and big, big ideas in the abstract, but we all know there's a reality right now that we're living through. And sometimes it feels dark. And it, for me to have these two new words that I didn't know, and I'm, I'm not a Tolgons guy. Yeah. I didn't know about this. It really is. Uh, I'm just very grateful that, um,

[02:24:33] Anguilupin wrote this in because now I have something to use for myself on any given morning, any given day, depending on what the news cycle is and all the other things going on in the world. I have a spectrum to place myself in and I don't have to feel that things are hopeless, but that's lovely. David actually, you know, there's all there, you know, it's, it's happening all over. It's all around us. It may suck where you are right now. It may not. You may have a,

[02:25:04] uh, Alicia was talking about this earlier. It's come up. There are people who benefit indirectly or directly from, uh, oppressive regimes and they may not even realize it and, and not, um, and, and there are those who are directly affected by it. And we're all sort of swimming around in this, but this idea that just cause it feels hopeless doesn't mean that there is no hope. Well, and I'm going to go back to Tolkien again because I always, of course you do.

[02:25:34] And quote Gandalf who says, despair is for those who see all outcomes beyond possibility of doubt. We do not. And now I'm going to bring in conclave. There you go. And talk about certainty is the enemy to fate. Yep. And you and I are going to talk about conclave. We're going to have a short. I can't wait. I can't. I'm sure. Yeah. I know. Right. But it's,

[02:26:04] it's a, it'll be a subscriber only. Well, no production value. We're just going to like hit, literally hit record and start talking. We're going to have fun. Cause I was on my flight back. I was, I, it was, I was like, Oh, what do I watch? Oh, I'll watch conclave again. And I was like, Oh, I have a, will you take my confession? Uh, for the, the, bless you, my son, for the Oscars coverage. I should have chosen conclave as my number one pick. Yeah. I heard you say that. Teo absolvo. Thank you. All right. We really got to keep things moving here. We have Keto. Keto says, hi, lore hounds.

[02:26:33] David asked me if I would write something. Yes, I did. I was bracing people on the discord. Um, so here are her thoughts, uh, their thoughts and or in philosophy doing injustice with words and categories. One part of episode six that struck, stuck out to me was the short exchange between Mon and credit Mon. You seem fixated on defining people. By their opposition to power. Krennic words do still have meaning given the context.

[02:27:00] I think we can assume that one of the words they're talking about is criminal or equally terrorist for Krennic. The matter is simple. Of course they're criminals. That's what criminals are breakers of the law. He's technically correct, but what he misses is the following words and categories like criminal are often created and changed in ways that oppress people. Philosophers sometimes call this ontic injustice. Note that this is her, uh,

[02:27:29] this is Kito's, uh, email continuing. Not me. Note, this is not my area of expertise, but I'll do my best. Philosopher Catherine Jenkins explains that an ontic injustice happens when someone is wronged by the very fact of being socially constructed as a member of a certain group. Somebody with a hair color, somebody with an eye color, uh, somebody who wears certain clothing. That's me talking. The ontic part means that people are made to be criminals.

[02:27:58] They acquire the property of being criminal by the creation of laws and punishment systems. Cassian, this is me talking. Cassian was made a criminal because he was walking, walking on the beach, and he got a six year sentence when it was normally whatever, six months or something. I forget. Six months. The P.O.R.D. Uh, and the P.O.R.D. is an example of this, the public order resensiting directive. But crucially, this categorizing can be unjust. Criminal doesn't only describe,

[02:28:27] it negatively evaluates. This injustice is especially clear if a government deems some actions, crimes, which are in fact completely morally permissible. Same sex marriage. Exactly. quote unquote interracial marriages, right? yeah, this might be what mom is, mom is giving it getting at. The empire has this preoccupation with defining people as criminals.

[02:28:55] Mom's comment that crime rates are rising across the galaxy suggests that the empire is widening the scope of criminal quote unquote criminal, thereby increasing the extent of on tech injustice committed against citizens of the galaxy. Of course, on tech injustice isn't perpetuated only by, uh, fictional fascist empires. It happens in our old world, in our own world, and to lots of words and categories. Voting, marriage,

[02:29:24] gender, and so on. These concepts get created and shaped in oppressive ways, often by excluding people unjustly in the case of criminal, including them unjustly. And I think that a great example for me of this is an undocumented person as opposed to an illegal person. Right. Uh, they're very morally, are they, uh, illegal or are they just, uh, have they broken a particular, uh, administrative law? And I'm also, sorry,

[02:29:55] I'm also thinking of the word unhoused. Yes, exactly. It's not them. It's a circumstance. And we're, we're disassociating the circumstance from the person. As opposed to homeless. Right. And then I think, I'm thinking about there's, uh, I forget the exact Latin words. There's basically two Latin phrases from law, meaning, uh, something that is, uh, not permissible by law. Oh, you did 30 miles an hour in a 25 mile an hour zone, right? That's administrative law. And then, um,

[02:30:24] natural crimes, you, you know, you murdered somebody or you married somebody. Right. You, you took something knowingly that it wasn't yours to take. Right. So anyway, carrying on with keto's email, the social world is literally what we make it. Of course. Will we make it's an agreement, right? It's all in conversation. Will we make it just or not? And, or, and I don't mean to diminish that. Sorry, that just the conversation thing, but it literally is just a set of words that we've agreed upon means and construct our social reality.

[02:30:54] There's a whole social constructivism philosophy and sociology, which I am not an expert in. And, or encourages us to ask that question and take action in the affirmative. If folks are interested in all this, they can check out Jenkins's book, ontology and oppression, colon, race, gender, and social reality. There's also a talk on YouTube. If you'd rather not read, hope that's helpful, interesting in some way. Love the podcast. You folks are doing fantastic job. Best wishes.

[02:31:24] Keto discord. Well, Keto, this is a fantastic email. Yes, it is. And thank you for your kind words. And again, there's a reality that we're living. And then we're, we're, we're also not trying to be a podcast that's advancing a specific political agenda or whatever. But if you're any, if you have any doubt about where we might be on things, you, it's clear, but I think it's a very important point is, is that the PORD and what Gilroy is doing in the story. Yeah.

[02:31:53] Is that the empire is using a legal definition and altering legal definitions to create people who are therefore classed as criminals, who can therefore be exploited for the purposes of the empire. Which is why they're simply going to try to figure out how to build more prisons instead of exactly taking a look at who is being right. Classes of criminal. There's a similar example to this. I, for a bunch of years when I worked at my college,

[02:32:21] I led ally trainings for folks who wanted to know more about LGBTIQ. And the first exercise that I did was to have them call out as many words as they could think of for heterosexual. And we came up with maybe half a dozen. And then I said, okay, how many words per gay? And sometimes I was writing for 10 or 15 minutes. And I said,

[02:32:49] this is an example of the power dynamic of dominant and subordinate groups in which the dominant group gets to name the subordinate group because the dominant group is considered to be normative. Not normal folks. I hate that word. Normal. Normal is a setting on a washing machine. It has, it's laden with value judgment. Right. But normative is a statistical analysis can be done. So you get,

[02:33:18] if you are part of the dominant group, you get to name the other. The interesting thing was everybody was hesitant when the exercise first starts. They're not sure. Is it okay to say these words aloud? And then I point that out and say, imagine being part of a group whose name is so shameful that people don't even want to speak it. Oh God. Yeah. Yeah. This is the power of language. It shapes our very reality. Yes. If,

[02:33:47] if the guy behind the screen thinks that it's a nuclear attack, he's going to push the button, whether or not it actually was. Right. So perception shapes reality. Right. And we use language to mediate. Enhance that. Yeah. To mediate the, the, the, the two sides of it, the worlds. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Uh, transmission from echo squadron. Hi, Marilyn, David. Uh, this is an email from Alicia. She says, I know,

[02:34:16] I know I already got my say in the episode five, LOL. But when Ian and I were talking about the writing of female characters in that breakdown, there was something I couldn't bring up because it was a big episode six. Spoiler. Sinta's death. I understand that Sinta dying emphasizes the pointlessness, stupid deaths that happen in a climate of fear like this. However, I do not understand why she needed to come into this sick and weaker than ever as well, as that didn't play into the story at all.

[02:34:45] I hope we will find out more about that sickness. There will have been a point to it other than keeping her away from Val, but I fear she will be quickly forgotten as, uh, uh, for quickly as forgotten as Tay by the next, uh, one year later. Although of course, not by Val. I do want to actually take issue with this. She had an injury related to something that happened a year ago and it took her a year to rest up.

[02:35:12] But when she does that parkour move off the top of the truck, I didn't read that as she was in any, in any way diminished. No, no, I didn't, I didn't see that either. Um, she seemed to be back and firing on all cylinders, or I don't think that she would have been given this assignment. Emotionally, she was very vulnerable with Val. And I get that, that, you know, that there was something different from what we saw because before when we saw Val as sort of cold as ice. So Alicia, if this is, uh, if we're not picking up some on something that you did, um, um,

[02:35:42] I guess it wasn't clear to us. So maybe you can, um, illuminate it on the discord or, or send in a feedback to, uh, episode nine, which is what the next one or, or, or to episode seven to John. And I certainly think that Cinta came across as very strong and certain outside of her scenes with Val. As you were saying, she's very vulnerable with, with Val and this might be the first time that she's allowed herself to be. Absolutely. It's new for her.

[02:36:09] She's been so locked down ever since the death of her family and all that stuff. Right. But as she presented to the Gormans, I think she presented every bit as stern and resolute and strong as did Val. Right. All right. So continuing her, uh, Alicia's email, it's just another example of something that is not an egregious writing sin, because as I keep saying, Tony Gilroy is a stupendous writer of spy intrigue,

[02:36:35] but it butts up against too closely to the trophy female stereotypes in a way that again, screams out to me in the lack of women in the writing room. Just one example in a show I love, and I hope I will be wrong about there being no point to this final portrayal. Just as I hope I am wrong about where Bix's storyline is going, we shall see. It does at this point, however, remain my biggest gripe with the show,

[02:37:04] and I figured it was best to bring it up now, as I said, um, uh, as I fear it will be irrelevant by next week. That's it. Can't wait to hear your breakdown of this incredible episode. Elisha. P.S. If you want to see Varda Setu, who plays Sinta, in a role where she plays such a different character, a happy and confident one, that she's completely unrecognizable, check out the new season of Doctor Who, where she plays the new companion Belinda Chandra.

[02:37:32] Episodes two and three of this season, three are released so far at the time of this recording, are especially good. And John and Elisha and sometimes Ian are doing joint coverage of Doctor Who as we're going on here. Because, you know, we're crazy like that. We only have The Last of Us, and, you know, uh, they just came off a wheel of time, and of course we have Andor, you know, it's- You don't need to sleep. You don't have family. You don't need to eat. P.S. on a completely different fun topic, picking up on my and Ian's speculation

[02:38:01] about Cyril and Enza possibly having a thing next arc. The Star Wars- Oh, Enza is the daughter of Rylos, who's the- Bri- Oh, okay. Thank you. Um, uh, the Star Wars website, Holocron Lore Databank, points out that Enza and fellow Gorman front operative, Dylan, are current item, rut row. So, maybe it's squashing that. Who knows? We'll see where that all goes. Thanks, Elisha, for writing in. And again, apologies if we miss- or misreading your email,

[02:38:31] but I didn't- uh, I didn't interpret the same thing that you interpreted. So, if you have some clarifications, definitely, um, let us know. Well, I want to absolutely affirm that people are looking through their own lenses.

[02:39:08] Mm-hmm. should have known coming into this that it was going to be, uh, two plus. And, uh, but I thank you for your company and for your wise counsel. Thank you for taking my, uh, confession. And, uh, for being such a fun intellectual partner to kick around stuff that we absolutely love so much. Oh, David, it's a joy and an honor and a privilege. And thank you for being the one who first drew me into the lore house all those years ago with a question about baroque. You're right. Oh, and by the way,

[02:39:38] if people are interested in advance on the conclave discussion, I urge you to read the New York Times obituary for Pope Francis. Oh, okay. And see what similarities might occur to you. Interesting. In that. Very cool. Yes. All right. Uh, reminder, if you want to get ad-free episodes and support the podcast, which means supporting the co-pilots because everybody's going to be able to share in, um, the revenue from this, uh, you can either get a season pass,

[02:40:07] which is a one-time $10 single purchase. Non, uh, it's not recurring and you get all of season one back catalog, all of season two, all of that ad free. And then you get all these bonus episodes. We're doing the holocron lore drops. Uh, we're going to have one about the Gore, what's called the Gorman massacre coming up. spoiler warnings for that. It's going to come out next week. It may foreshadow what's going to happen on Tuesday. So be a little bit careful. We had another one recently about, uh, Rakatan invaders and,

[02:40:37] um, I'm having some side conversations. Hopefully I'm going to talk to Mark and Nicole. They don't know that yet, but I'm coming for them. Uh, uh, we've got some video analysis. Well, they know now. They know now. They know now. We've got some video analysis and other things. So you get a whole bunch of stuff for your $10 or you can, if you feel at home here, you can subscribe as a regular subscriber and you get bonus episodes like our 11 Z's movie club, like our second breakfast, uh, podcast and a ton of other bonus content. All of that also ad free.

[02:41:07] And we have two, you can either be on the supercast website, which is just like Patreon. It's just a set up a little bit differently or on Patreon, uh, either way. And we can, you can do monthly or annual subscriptions. Uh, so for the, the price of a meal out in New York city, you support the lore hounds for all year. Feedback, star Wars at the lore hounds.com. Uh, in the show notes, there is a link tree that has links to all of our other affiliated podcasts. I'm not going to go into all of those right now because I want to get out of here.

[02:41:38] Uh, but, uh, Marilyn, you have your own podcast called brings and rituals. We have, um, radioactive, uh, ramblings. We have, uh, uh, properly Howard. We have will shift dust. We have, uh, the star Wars cannon timeline project. It's probably a couple others. I'm forgetting. Uh, and now I'm just going to quickly read our thank yous to not only our discord server boosters, but to our lore masters. Uh, we have a bunch of people on discord who subscribe to discord and then they donate their,

[02:42:08] uh, bonus things to us to make the server a better place. And that's Aaron K. Tiller, the thriller, dork of the ninjas, do 71, Athena, Adjalea, Tina, Lestu, Nancy M, ghost of perdition, and radioactive Richard. Lore masters are our top tier subscribers. We couldn't do it without them. Uh, so some Martian, Michael G, Michelle E, Brian P, SC, Peter O H, Adam S, Nancy M, do 71, Brian, 80, 63, Frederick H, Sarah L, Gareth C,

[02:42:37] Matthew M, Sarah M, Andra B, Kwong Yu, Deadeye, Jedi Bob, Nathan T, Alex V, Subzero, Aaron K, Dally V, mothership 61, Gnarls, Kathy W, Lestu, Jeffrey B, Elisa U, Neil F, Ben B, Scott F, Steven N, Julia F, Kali S, Ilmaril, forward slash Tim, and never forgotten, never last, Adrian. Thank you all so very much for listening. Marilyn, thanks again for being here.

[02:43:07] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being such an inspiration for me. I'm just trying to, trying to get by day to day. So we're doing it. We're doing it. If, uh, if you are not able to subscribe, no worries at all. We're just glad that you're here with us. And for those of you who do subscribe, we thank you from the bottom of our hearts. And so many new names on that list. Now it's really fun. It's really great. And we'll see you. I'll be back for episode nine, but next week,

[02:43:36] look out for episode seven from John and then eight from Alicia. And we'll talk to everyone soon. Bye. And may Estelle and the force be with you. The Lord Hounds podcast is produced and published by the Lord Hounds. You can send questions and feedback to star Wars at the Lord Hounds.com and get ad free access to all Lord Hounds podcasts at Patreon or Supercast. Connect with us on blue sky. Links for everything in the episode show notes.

[02:44:01] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening. Lord Vader, operation and or is underway. Excellent. If we release three episodes per week, the Lord Hounds will never be able to cover every episode. The Imperial forces will crush the rebellion before it begins. Stand by. We're picking up something on our scanners. Echo squadron reporting in Delta squadron on your left.

[02:44:30] Tango squadron on your six with Imperial forces coming in fast. We're calling all rebels to join the fight this season. Starting after the April 22nd premiere, you'll hear three full breakdowns for each week's episodes of and or season two. Each podcast will be led by one of our squadron leaders, Alicia, David and John. We'll be bringing in new and familiar voices to fill out the roster. Search for the Lord Hounds on any podcast platform to join us in a galaxy far, far away.

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