Andor - S02E12 - Jedha Kyber Erso

[00:00:01] Attention all units, we've got our sights on a new episode of Andor. We're gonna need some recon on this. Delta Squadron, on your left. To anyone else on this comlink, send all transmissions to andor at thelorehounds.com and get Holocron bonus episodes for 10 credits with our season pass on the show notes. Rebels, may the force be with you.

[00:00:41] Welcome to the Lorehounds Andor Podcast. I'm David from the Lorehounds and we're your guides to a galaxy far, far away. This is our coverage of Andor, I'm gonna cry, Season 2, Episode 12, Jedha Kyber Erso. I seriously, I like suddenly got all emotional. This is our last regular podcast for the episode, but it's not our last podcast for our coverage of Andor. More information about that in just a moment.

[00:01:11] And if you're, this is your first time here, because of the triple drop schedule each week, we have been covering Andor Squadron style. John has been covering the first episode, Alicia the second, and then I've been bringing up the rear with the third. And each week, we have a different co-pilot joining us. My co-pilot today is a dear friend and an esteemed colleague, Aisha from the Every Single Sci-Fi

[00:01:38] Film Podcast. Every Single Sci-Fi Film Ever podcast. Aisha, it is such a pleasure to see you and thank you for joining me on this momentous day of recording. How are you? Thank you. I'm okay. I'm good. I've got the feels passing through the airwaves, I think. But yeah, thank you so much for having me on. It's been such a good show. And yeah, it's, I guess it's done.

[00:02:06] Oh yeah. It's kind of hard to fathom that reality. Before we get into our hot takes, just a couple of quick more, a couple of quick more notes. Is that an English phrase? I don't know. I'm emotional. So my brain is fried. First off, our blog is bussin. If that's as the kids say, we have got a bumper crop of articles going on there. We have stuff about Cassian's arc,

[00:02:32] about the effectiveness of rebellions, what power is, questions of genocide. And I think there's even another one. John has another one in the pipeline right now. So go check us out at lorehounds.com and go to the blog. And yeah, it's some great extra material. Our next Holocron bonus episode is going to be all about Bale Organa.

[00:02:56] Alicia, our lore master, has a whole bunch of really great background and info about Bale Organa. So that is going to be out this weekend. And then, as I mentioned, our coverage of Andor is not over. I'm looking over at my project board and I see at least four other podcasts that I've got ideas for, and I'm sure more will spin up and spin out after that. So if you're here just on the Star Wars only

[00:03:24] feed, keep this com link open. I will send updates and maybe snippets some things. And then if you're interested in all of the bonus content and whether you're a regular monthly subscriber or whether you're a season pass only holder, that stuff will be coming. Because of the compressed schedule, I just feel like we need, we haven't had time to do all the extra things that we wanted to do. So

[00:03:48] I think we're just going to keep it open and running. Before we start talking about any Star Wars stuff, this is your general spoiler warning for all of Star Wars. Neither Aisha, I are deep lore experts, but we do know a little bit and we will be talking about anything that comes to mind. And since we're the anchor episode for the season, we can talk about all of season one and season two included. John and

[00:04:14] Alicia had to like restrict themselves, you know, leaping forward. That said, Aisha, just to give some context, what is your personal history with Star Wars? So I was born in 1977 and a huge part of my personality is that all great things come from 1977. I adore Star Wars and, but I am not at all. Um, I am a bit of a fraud being here as in love that the original used to be my favorite Star Wars,

[00:04:43] but now it's Andor, which has been quite difficult for me to come to terms with. I've watched a lot of bits and pieces. I've probably watched all the films. I haven't watched all the TV series because I'm waiting for my children to catch up with me. And, um, I've never read anything even remotely Star Wars related. Right. I am, uh, I remember going to the movie theater in 1977 and watching the original release. Uh, so even so we are, you and I are

[00:05:13] contemporaries, even though we're separated slightly, I too have not read books or comics. Uh, I've only dabbled in the, uh, animated series, seen all the movies. Um, I think it's funny. Uh, I was thinking about this earlier, you know, Empire Strikes Back is a lot of, uh, for a lot of people, Empire Strikes Back is a favorite. Absolutely.

[00:05:38] And it's interesting because that is the most adult themed oriented. Like it's the one that's got the, hits the hardest and like, oh damn, this is like really messed up and things aren't going great for the rebellion and that kind of stuff. So and or is now filling that, uh, niche of, of what's in the Star Wars. So interesting aside anyway. Yeah, I'm, I'm like you. Uh, but fortunately I have two other co-hosts, John and Alicia. Uh, Alicia really knows her stuff. Yes. And John is,

[00:06:07] uh, pretty good too. He's a pretty good super fan. So, so it's, we have a nice spectrum. Like we have the full sort of spread of everybody. So for today's formatting, unlike John and Alicia, I cannot do these hybrid thematic based, uh, breakdowns. I have to do kind of a, uh, scene by scene. I've smooshed some scenes together, but because I'm such a visually oriented person, I can't break it apart in that same way. So we're going to, uh, take it in big chunks. I've sort of,

[00:06:34] uh, compressed several, um, of the scenes all together, but before we get into that, Aisha, what is your hot takes for the episode and for the sort of season and all? Oh, and I should mention too, we're working on an idea. John, Alicia, and I are going to do a wrap up podcast where, cause the three of us have not had a chance to talk yet. Yeah. And, but we also really want to

[00:07:00] hear from all the co-pilots and everybody who's been on the show with us to make it such a fun season. And so I'm working on an idea right now. That is one of my ideas on the board is how do we get, cause we're across time zones, we're across countries. We're literally from the West coast of the United States all the way through to, you know, the far side of Africa and, uh, and Europe. And so trying to put all that together. So we're, we're figuring out what the Rubik's cube is to,

[00:07:29] you know, to solve for that, but we'll be, you'll be hearing at least two more podcasts for season wrap up stuff. Uh, you dear listener are in for some treats, but let me turn it back to you, Aisha thoughts on the episode thoughts on the season. Um, I do think this last drop was very much a kind of an ode to, to Luthun and his legacy. Um, and he, he's such an interesting character

[00:07:55] because, you know, he gives that whole monologue. He is, he's not, you know, he's not gone, gone to the dark side, but he's using the dark sides methods. Um, and I think, I think the idea of him, you know, it's such, it's so easy to sit on the fence, but he did all the stuff and this is, you know, this is kind of obvious, but he did all the stuff and it's very easy to go, Oh, but he's such a bad person. And as we're reminded very much in this episode, but also

[00:08:23] across all three is that the rebellion simply wouldn't exist without him. Um, and is that kind of gray area of, you know, what is it is, does the outcome make everything worth it? And, you know, there wouldn't be an outcome if, if Luthun wasn't around. So I think an ode to Luthun towards the end after they've completely destroyed his character for the rest of the series.

[00:08:47] Um, my other hot take is I realized that you are getting some pushback on the fact that this is a political, um, series and okay. So we don't need to go into all the similarities to the world around us, but I don't think you can have any analysis of this show or any media literacy if we ignore the political, especially when Tony Gilroy himself has specifically pointed out historical references and

[00:09:16] told us that he read young Stalin before writing Andor's character. He, there are people in history, which, you know, Lincoln directly to the characters that he is, he has created. Um, so the idea that we can avoid the political in a show that is so deeply historically political, I think is quite, um, I don't know. It's like willfully ignorant, right? It's a bit of a harsh thing to say, but that is how

[00:09:44] I feel about it. Um, if I can interject really quickly to John mentioned this a little bit, John and Aaron on the episode 10 podcast. Yeah. And we had got a couple of stray comments on, on reviews and that kind of stuff. And I recognize that not everybody is a particular customer of a particular podcast. That's fine. You don't, you know, there's nobody's forcing you to listen to us, but then you get a stray comment that says, Oh, there's, you know, these are, these people are

[00:10:10] of this particular ideology and they can't help, but stumble over themselves to, we work really hard to make sure that we're not specifically political and we don't name candidates or political parties. We don't advocate for any particular agenda or issue, but we're human beings. We have points of view. We have feelings. We see the world around us. That's something that's I think unique about the lorehounds community is that we are all very people in the, in the community are very intellectually

[00:10:39] curious. They want to debate and explore ideas and use narrative stories to explore the world. And if you can detect where we are as individuals and as a community, that's fine. And if that's not right, Aisha, that we can't not look at some of what's going on around us in the world today,

[00:11:04] we can do that without being specific. Cause we also want to be an escape space for people to come and have some fun and relax, but then start with the very nature of star Wars. And John pointing this out that, you know, Lucas was specifically political in the original movie of 77. And so you cannot divorce politics from star Wars period. Now we don't have to talk about specifics, but we are going to speak about things in a broad sense. And if that's not for you,

[00:11:32] we understand. Yeah. And the thing is, I'm definitely no fan of Stalin. Um, I have read the book, young Stalin, right? Yeah. I'm definitely no fan of Stalin, but I have read the books, young Stalin. It's a fascinating book. It's something I was very interested in learning about. Um, and it's interesting to see those kinds of parallels between and or, and Stalin, but ultimately I think Stalin was much more of a thug. Um, but I can see those parallels and how they develop. And I mean,

[00:11:59] why would you like willfully try and miss out something, which is part of the, I mean, you can add stuff to it that, you know, readings to it as people always do, but to willfully say, I'm going to ignore this part of it just seems very, very strange to me. It enriches the, the, the, whatever art or culture that we're looking at. And I think this is very much a treatise on like visual treatise on fascism and opposition to fascism and whatever that might mean to the

[00:12:23] individual. Absolutely. And I think it to, to ignore that kind of, uh, deep historical context would be antithetical to what we as, uh, the lore hounds, both John, Alicia, and myself, where we sit as people and the community that has, uh, congregated around. And I think that to shut down ideas and exploration, um, is antithetical to, to sort of who we are.

[00:12:51] Yeah. And everyone wants to have fun and everyone's got a comedy show or something or music where you can switch off and not have to think about it. But I don't, I definitely don't think Andor is a star Wars thing that you want to go to if you completely want to ignore the politics of something. John and Alicia are covering Dr. Who along with Ian, who's been one of our co-pilots. They've just rolling onto Murderbot. Uh, so like that's, you know, some fun palate cleanser stuff. So yeah,

[00:13:17] we have a broad spectrum, right? You gotta have your, uh, your ice cream along with your, uh, your nutrition. Yeah. Um, and the other thing I love about Andor is the moral ambiguity, which, you know, we've kind of touched on with Luthien, but you know, you get to see the inner workings of these terrible people and start feeling, you know, feeling or a little bit of empathy for them. I mean, maybe you don't because you're like, well, these are horrible fascists.

[00:13:42] But, you know, when I look at Dedra and Cyril, I definitely don't like them, but I can see how they are very damaged individuals. I can see how Luthien, although he's fighting for the cause is, you know, he's a murderer and, and he doesn't murder. He just murders on a whim on what he thinks is strategically like, it's a very cold thing to do. Um, and it's, I like to be challenged like that in some of my consumption of media. And that's a, a fun, interesting, you know,

[00:14:12] Gilroy and company have, uh, um, given us three dimensional characters as opposed to a flat two dimensional mytho heroic characters. And it kind of takes that myth out of it to a degree. It kind of makes it more grounded and just far more interesting. Um, you know, some of the You and I were texting earlier and there's a very interesting line that comes up later with Bell and Cassian, but we'll talk about it when we get there. There's something very much about sort of mythology, even in world mythology. I think there's a wink and a nod inside there.

[00:14:41] Okay. And again, leading onto that is what is rebellion? What are people fighting for? Like there are things that I can sit here and go, well, I think that's wrong. And I do a lot of that loads and loads of, you know, um, what is it called? Keyboard warrior stuff. I'm all up for that. This is wrong. Um, but what would I actually, you know, go out there and fight for? What are those, you know, what, what has to become untenable for you to go out

[00:15:05] and do that? That I find that really interesting. Um, yeah, I think if Gilroy was in charge of the rest of star Wars, I actually don't think there would be a happy resolution to the revolution because he's, he's grounded, you know, there's a moral ambiguity and there's all this kind of dirt that comes with, you know, this fight for freedom. And if you go historically, go back and

[00:15:30] look at what happens after the French revolution, they killed a whole bunch of people and it was called the great terror. And after the Russian revolution, Lenin, um, learned from the French revolution and said, you know, you, you got to break some eggs to make an omelet. Like he, he wanted people to die after the revolution happened. It wasn't like, okay, we won everyone go home. And now we're like a revolutionary society and similar to kind of Mao in China. So I think, yeah, I was thinking that. And then Cambodia and, uh, in Vietnam as well.

[00:15:59] Yeah. I mean, Cambodia, especially God. Um, so I'm glad that we have the nice, happy Star Wars, which got Luke Skywalker, who's just pure and good. And he, he's the hero and that's nice. And that is the kind of escapism. So yeah, I can still hold on to 1977. So that's quite nice. Um, the other thing is some people were complaining online about the lack of Jedi and the force. Right.

[00:16:26] I actually really like, I mean, I love the Jedi, but I really like the fact they've done that. And I like the way they just snuck in a bit of the force towards the end, um, which was with the force healer. And then that, I almost feel like when Luthun was speaking to Andor, where he's like, you were everywhere where I needed you. And I was a bit confused about, is he saying that he set that up or is he talking about fate? Is he talking about the force? Um, yeah, that was kind of interesting

[00:16:53] to me that, you know, that there's almost a kind of Messiah in Andor that who, who kind of shows up to save my headcanon for the longest time. And I don't know where I got this idea because I thought I got it from an external source, but in my headcanon has always been that Han Solo is passive in the ways of the force that the force was his luck was the force, you know, uh, moving through him.

[00:17:20] And I, I sort of think of, uh, Cassian in a similar way. Yeah. Cassian and Han are definitely, um, yeah, adjacent to each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and sort of being either they're in the river and the force maybe sort of directs them over this way. They still have to do stuff. And this gets obviously into the whole conversation of free will versus determinism or, you know, spiritual determinism. But yeah, the, the, the river of the force is sort of moving them in, nudging them in directions.

[00:17:47] They still have to act and, and have agency in the moment, but the, that life is presenting these opportunities for them, uh, that the force is push, putting them into these circumstances and situations where they're the person that needs to step up. I think there's an interesting conversation there. And, and the, the force healer really kind of like threw Andor for a loop, right? Like he was like, Oh, my shoulder, like, as in he could feel it. And the shoulder thing, you know, his shoulder

[00:18:14] kind of healed. So it's interesting because I still don't think he believes in the force, but yeah, it's a bit like X-Files where it doesn't matter what happens to Scully. She's not going to believe that anything's happened. Um, and I just, it's not about this episode, but overall, I wanted to do a quick shout out to Cyril, um, because Kyle Sola's change on every single drop was just phenomenal. I remember, I think it's drop. So first, second

[00:18:42] drop he's then with Dedret and then third drop when he's on Gorman. Yeah. His whole mannerism and the way he changes and you're like, I can see a year has passed and his kind of maturity of confidence, the way he carries himself, the way he's not burdened by his kind of mother's oppression is really, really well done. Um, and really also brings into focus that time has passed. He couldn't, that couldn't have happened overnight. So why don't you just shout out

[00:19:09] to that? Yeah. Gilroy, I think has been on some interviews talking about how as a screenwriter, that's one of the things, and I, and I'm using Gilroy as a cipher for all the writers, right? Yeah. I don't mean to say only, only him, but that the writers were exploring this idea of in a, in a movie, especially how do we show time passage and how do we show the real effects of age and time and experience? And so, yeah, that's a, it's a cool aspect that they brought in.

[00:19:36] And I generally really don't like CGI. I've got a really low tolerance for it. The minute I'm like, Oh, that's CGI. Wait a minute, but you have a sci-fi film podcast. Yeah, but like, what year am I even David? Yeah, you're still in the sixties, right? You're still just in the sixties. I have to get to the two thousands when I start getting upset, you know? Are you going to be covering any of that old animation stuff like Jason and the Argonauts kind of things? That's a little bit more swords and sandals. I mean, we've, we did King, King, King and Kong, King Kong.

[00:20:07] Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that stop animation stuff is there. And even that, I, you know, I love that stuff. I don't know what it is. I think maybe just, yeah, nostalgia. And I think for the time, it's really, really good. Whereas I don't know, there's something about a lot of CGI, which just, it just takes me out of the moment, whereas stop animation doesn't, which is really strange. I don't know if, because I'm used to seeing certain things, but in this, the CGI has been phenomenal. Not for a second. Have I gone, Oh, that doesn't look

[00:20:35] real at all. I just can't believe it. I it's so, so well done. Um, and if you go, absolutely. Especially with, uh, K2. Yes. And even that, cause they, they have, um, scenes of, um, Alan Tudyk standing there with all the spots all over him reenacting stuff. And you're like, but you're not the shape of K2. How are they filling in those back bits? Because it's done really well. Um, so yeah, it's been phenomenal. Shout out to all the artists involved in that. Um, I wanted to just a few small

[00:21:05] things and or shoots first, which I know that you've already noted. We don't have any issues with Andrew and or shooting first. I think we've come to accept him. He is Han Solo adjacent. Um, but there've been no discussions about that because he definitely shoots first. Second thing. Shameless plug for a blog post that I wrote. Yes. A very good blog post actually. Thank you. I actually, uh, examined the question of, of how and or how Cassian,

[00:21:33] how that trait of shooting first developed going back to Canary and watching his, uh, tribal leader get shot in the back by that, um, that crew member who stands up behind her and he's watching, and they show us in the scene, he's seeing that all happen, but he's frozen. He's, he doesn't know what to do. And so that paralysis and that moment and that feeling of guilt, because he was really looking up to her and she, she saw him and was, uh, encouraging him to participate. And so that

[00:22:02] buried in his psychology, but anyway, there, I have a whole thing about Cassian's arc, the six sort of key moments in season one that he goes from a scoundrel to hero. Yeah. Um, so yeah, check that out guys. And then I really miss Mon's fancy bougie outfits. And that is really superficial of me, but, um, I wish that the tailor joined the rebellion just to

[00:22:29] kind of, who's that person? Oh, that he just makes Mon's outfits. So I do, I do miss that, you know, I guess it's practical and she's got a few kinds of things around her neck to show. Jungle is hell that, that, uh, that, um, uh, I want to say what's the, uh, that tropical environment is just hell on broad cloth fabric. Yeah. And also layers would not really work out very long. Not fun. No, she's wearing a very light and airy sort of thing there. Yeah. Um,

[00:22:56] and then lastly, I know that they show Mon's husband, but I'm still so sad about Mon's daughter. Like it's, I really thought that there would be some kind of connection or something would happen. And I don't know, I was just, I have a teen daughter. Um, you know, we sometimes disagree, but like, you know, I can't imagine, oh, it's just so heartbreaking. And it's probably, you know, it's not mentioned. No one really cares about it. It's gone. And there's a part of me that's just

[00:23:22] still mourning that relationship. Um, so I just, those are basically my hot takes and things I needed to get off my chest. I hear you. Yeah. And there's so many things that Gilroy has left on the table that we don't get. Uh, but that's a, that's a style, right? That's a choice that they made as writers. So. And I, I respect him for that. I think he's done well. The team have done so well. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I'm going to give you a shameless plug really quick. If folks are enjoying

[00:23:47] your perspective and takes on things, uh, Aisha's podcast, every single sci-fi film ever asterisk, uh, which is for almost, you are going on a historical journey from the early, early stages of science fiction on film, starting way back when to, to all the way through. And it's going to get harder and harder. I think as you, as we wind out, right. As once we hit sixties, but it is a

[00:24:15] been so much fun. I'm in 1959. I am actually like, I know people have been saying and all's quite depressing, but I've just been dealing with potentially the most depressing sci-fi film ever. You were texting me the other day that your brain was just so burning. I'm so glad I've recorded that episode and it's done and I don't have to think about it anymore. It was, I mean, there's enough going on in the world. I do not need to deal with such a bleak film, but anyway, anyway, apart from that, it's usually fun. Yeah. So go check out every single sci-fi film there. Every,

[00:24:42] what's the website? Um, every sci-fi film.com. Right. And then, uh, or just search every sci-fi film in your podcast player and go check it out. It's you bring on guests who are, uh, film historians or, or, uh, academics who are studying different things. And, and so you, it's you and usually two guests and you guys deconstruct the movie and talk about not only the movie itself and the production, but the historical context, why that film was made at that time and who was involved

[00:25:12] and what their backgrounds were. It's a wonderful deconstruction of stuff that is just so like, if you're, uh, you nerdy like us in the lore hounds, this, you know, it's really going back and examining our roots of why do we have an Andor today is because back in the 19, you know, fifties and forties, they were doing this stuff. So yeah. And, and star was supposed, was supposed to be flash Gordon. So yeah. Right. Star killer, uh, the adventures of star

[00:25:39] killer base or whatever. I forget the exact one, but all right. Well, let me give my, I'll just quickly give the, you're welcome. You're very welcome. Let me just give a couple of quick, my hot takes. Uh, I I'm really interested in the, at a story level, this idea that Luthen is this sort of, uh, patriarchal father figure to both Cassian and Clea. And I was thinking about, well, what is Val? And it's almost like, I would say he's, he's Val's uncle and he's a grandfather

[00:26:06] to Wilman. Uh, but then, you know, these, these themes of bonds and families as they're forged under difficult, uh, circumstances, which is a great kind of metaphor for the Alliance building an Alliance. So how do we, and, and Gilroy and company scale wonderfully between the micro and the macro. We don't have to get into the macro, but we get the sense that we feel it, uh, as our characters are moving through. But this idea that, that when you lose,

[00:26:35] uh, a big personality in a family, somebody who's very dominant, it does, it can be a father or I was saying, you know, I was going to write a patriarchal, but no matriarchal, like my grandmother was a force in my, in my mother's family. And when she passed, it changed the landscape of, you know, my mother's family and all of us. And, um, so it's interesting when you, when you remove somebody from that, from that kind of dynamic. And I think there's a lot of really

[00:27:03] deep, you can, I think on subsequent watches of this episode, you, we will start to pick up on that conversations, those conversations that people are having post Luthien's passing. There's some really deep emotional stuff there. I think again, using, you know, looking at this meta context of humanity and our ongoing predilection for conflict, you know, and, uh, how, yeah, we have a galactic Senate, but at the end of the day, it comes down to force

[00:27:33] and the use of force and who has, uh, who has power through use of force. And, and I think you very well pointed out, you know, Gilroy's fascination with human history and reading and studying. I don't know if he's studied, he's read a lot. I don't want to say study as in an academic sense, but he is a consumer of, uh, histories of human history. And I think this question of Luthien using people to achieve this outcome, literally using people to achieve a political outcome,

[00:28:03] uh, it's, it's a fascinating question and whether, and Cassian bristles at that in the last drop, right? Uh, you know, he's like, I make my own decisions. And so he's really bristling at being used or, you know, uh, subjecting himself to, to a cause. So a fascinating example, uh, on a production level, this is such an intricate jewel. It's not without its flaws and gaps in certain

[00:28:28] things. Like what? There is no flaws here. Jyn Erso. No mention of Jyn Erso at all. I don't think it needs it. I don't think it needs it. I get, I get why, like, you know, I get why, but like at the same time, I don't think we've got Rogue One. I don't need her on screen, but like the, there, that is such an important part into the next movie. If we're, if we're rolling straight into Rogue One,

[00:28:52] oh yeah, Tivik is on the ring of Kafreen. Saw is on Scarif. We heard, you know, Galen Erso. Oh yeah, we know about him. Didn't he have a daughter? Yeah. She's, you know, somewhere we're going to find her because that's such an important part of Rogue One when Melshi's squad goes to, to rescue her, that she's on, uh, well, Bonnie, uh, anyway, just, so there, there are little things that you could, you could point out, but I, I, I am not, I'm not diminishing Rogue One or Andor in any way,

[00:29:20] because I love it so. I'm glad. Yes. And what's really extraordinary is that I think this is a new level of crossover between television and movies. Movies have a format and we're trying to fit a complex story into a movie runtime, right? In, in that sort of hour 15 to two and a half hours. Like I was really getting tired of all these two and a half hour, these, these big name auteurs

[00:29:47] rolling out these two and a half hour long movies, man, I got to go to the bathroom right now. I got a family at home. I'm in the theater here, you know? David, as, as the person, um, in, in your gang that does the longest, longest podcast, I don't think you should be complaining about that. It's true. You're, you are correct. You are the author of your, of your drops. I am called out. John was making fun of that the other day. He was looking at the runtimes and yeah, but I'm, I'm bringing up the rear. So we have to talk about everything.

[00:30:17] Yes. Uh, uh, anyway, the, the, this idea that you called me out good. I liked that. I'm taking that one. I'm taking that. Um, but that, that, and if we look at a lot of the directors, uh, for this season two, there's a lot of directors who have film and TV crossover. Hmm. And so we're really bringing a cinematic, uh, sensibility, not only in the visuals,

[00:30:46] but in the script writing to the small screen episodic stories, this 10, 11, 12, this is a move. This take the credit. I want to see, I'm going to take, you know, the thing I'm going to take the credits out and just stick them together and watch the thing as one shot without any break because they really brought a cinematic sensibility in, in how facts and circumstances are layered, what is spoken and what is not spoken. Gilroy's constantly taught,

[00:31:14] you know, he's been in a lot of interviews talking about negative space and what they left and, you know, the, the protein that you need on screen to continue to, to move forward and just getting rid of anything that's not that. And so they really, uh, and that's what you do in movies and not on television. So I think it's a really interesting, uh, uh,

[00:31:34] evolution in the form of episodic storytelling. Uh, I want to point out one production detail that I thought was really brilliant, which is in season one, episode 12, when Cassian is listening to Nemec's manifesto. And this is just this level of intricate. This is an example of the intricate jewel that this two season series is episode 12. Cassian's listening to

[00:32:04] Nemec's manifesto in his ship that he came off of, um, Qunari from just before the big, you know, the, before Marva's funerary. And so we hear Nemec's manifesto diegetically, right? In world like that. We're hearing it. Is he coming from Aldani at that point or is he? No, he's already on Ferix. Oh, right. Okay. Right. He's, uh, and he's already met Brasso and whatnot. And so he's having this, this moment where he's just holding out until Marva's funeral the next day. And he's listening to Nemec's

[00:32:33] manifesto in audio book form and listening to Nemec's podcast. What would it be called? Podcast. Anyway, he, and we hear. No, you're just making me laugh. Just Nemec for the same podcast. Yeah. That'd be quite. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, uh, we hear it diegetically in world. And then as Cassian stands up and moves to the back of the ship, the, the audio moves from diegetic to background music so that we're hearing it with, uh, Cassian at the same time in this episode, when part, when,

[00:33:03] Oh, it's so good. Clea gets up from the hospital bed. We start to hear Nemec's manifesto in background. Hmm. And then when we shift to ISB headquarters and we have part of gas listening to it in the, in the room, it shifts to diegetic. It mirrors. The, the, the earlier Cassian scene, uh, a whole season prior, they are pulling a perfectly constructed

[00:33:31] scene and reversing it. And Cassian, the hero, the ascendant hero and part of gas, the descending villain. And then mirroring that and using, I'm getting chills, using Nemec's voice. Yeah, no, it's phenomenal. And are we going to talk about that again? Or should we talk about that? Yes, we will. When we get to the, yeah, in about three and a half hours when we get there. Oh yeah. I might need to go for that loop break. Yeah, we'll take a break. Yeah. Uh, but it's just, uh, it's, it's such an intricate jewel

[00:33:59] that I'm just excited to have that opportunity to come back to the series over and over again and, and watch the entire series and seeing these different connections, these different layers where they've connected things intentionally, unintentionally, just by being creators in the moment and in the flow that, you know, uh, or Hey, we're going to do this. And then, you know, in this episode, we're going to repeat it again in that episode, whatever the circumstances,

[00:34:26] that's where I think this elevates to this level of art beyond above entertainment. It's speaking to our consciousness. It's speaking to our aesthetics. It's speaking to, to us on a much broader holistic, uh, it's not just making me laugh or just making me feel some feelings, but it's engaging me as a whole person. And, um, and, and by doing, by, by caring about the

[00:34:49] craft of production, that's one of the things that elevates it beyond. Uh, I want to wrap up really quickly. We'll take a break and then we'll get into the episode that, um, we had a, uh, one of our, our friends of the pod and long time listener Ken wrote in and John read this on his episode one with Aaron, but I just want to pull this snippet out from that. When you want a TV show to go on forever, but they land it perfectly, you sit back and realize star Wars can

[00:35:18] be so much more. And that first part, like, Oh yeah, I want this. I don't want this to end, but damn it. They, they, they, they ended it and they ended it on their terms in a way that they wanted to. And it's just so satisfying. And yes, is it a game changer for star Wars? I think this is a little bit of a black Swan television show, but it is going to hopefully ripple out, uh, for generations to come. It's, it's perfect as it is. And it's one of those things that

[00:35:48] I feel like even if it doesn't rip, I mean, it probably will reflect, because it's a valuable IP and they're going to want to like repeat it. Um, but I just love it when they have a show that's a limited number of seasons and it just fits together, as you said, fits together perfectly and it lands the end. I just, I'm a sucker for that. So whether they do more or not, I'm, I'm happy. Yes, exactly. Satisfied in left wanting more, right? It's always that thing. I'm you've left me wanting more and that's the perfect place to end it. Did you see ever see

[00:36:17] station 11 or queen's gambit? No, I started watching queen's gambit, but I didn't finish it. And I read station 11, but I didn't watch that. Okay. For, for two onscreen things that are single season, limited series stuff. Perfect. And then people were like, Oh, we want more. We want more. And I'm like, no, this is a, it's perfect. Yeah. So things for me like that, a fleabag, which had two seasons. Yeah. I never finished that either. I got distracted and just never picked it

[00:36:45] back up again. So yeah, I was about to drop it about three, four, cause I just thought, Oh, it's a, it's a, you know, lighthearted comedy. I'm done with this, but it's really beautifully done wraps up perfectly. She's such a good writer. Um, and a far heavier one that might not be for everyone is I may destroy you, uh, which is, Oh, I never saw that one. Yeah. Yeah. That got critical acclaim. Yeah. Yeah. So, and there's a few other dark, dark was quite good. The German sci-fi one.

[00:37:09] Um, there's, there's more that I can't, Oh, Legion. Did you ever watch Legion? No, I started that, but that was like a long time ago and I didn't understand what I was watching. I, I, I didn't have sensibility at the time. I was, uh, I was a Luddite, I think. So yeah, Luddite's not the right word. I was, uh, I was, um, I was included. It's not for everyone. It's, it's a little bit. It's intense. It's hyper. And also it's, it's slightly weird, you know, it's not like, yeah. And I didn't know that.

[00:37:37] I was just like, Oh, what is this? And I started watching it and I was like, I don't understand this cause I didn't have context for it. So I didn't have a podcast to listen to, to help me. Shameless plug. All right. Let us take a quick break. And then when we come back, we will get

[00:37:53] into the episode. And we're back. A couple of quick reminders, feedback, starwarsatthelorehounds.com.

[00:38:23] And that is a good active email for all things, anytime star Wars. Again, we're going to do a couple more episodes. So if you want to get your feedback in John, Alicia and I are going to be recording, we don't have a date set, but, uh, you know, within the next week or so we're going to get together. So if you have big, uh, if you have specifics or you have metacontext, definitely send us in. The discord has been hopping. I have had such a hard time keeping up with the flow of discussion. We have a whole welcome at all the new people

[00:38:53] who have joined us. Well, people bringing in new, great, fresh perspectives to, to everyone else who's been there for whatever length of time have been welcoming. And the conversations have really been everything from fun comedy to really soulful and interesting introspectives and commentary on, on life, the universe and everything. And so you can join us there. There's a link in the show notes of this episode that it's a link tree. It has links to all of our

[00:39:20] affiliate podcasts and our discord and all that kind of stuff. So check us out. So the writer for this drop of episodes is Tom Bissell. He has a lot of not that many titles. And I guess, was he a journalist or something like that? I think I heard that. Uh, and so he's a little bit new to, to screenwriting. His biggest thing was mosquito coast on Apple TV, which I didn't watch. So, uh, interesting. He's a little bit more of a junior.

[00:39:46] A writer, but man, to give, if, if Gilroy as the showrunner, Gilroy specifically picked him for the, the capstone episodes, like, man, that's something. Uh, and then the director for this block is Alonso. And I'm going to try to slowly pronounce this Ruiz Palaasios, Ruiz Palaasios. I apologize for, um, uh, that I'm, I haven't heard it in, so it's not in my,

[00:40:14] my ear that way. Uh, he's a Mexican writer and director. Most of his titles that I looked on his IMDB are, uh, Mexican productions, but this again, he's a, uh, done a lot of film. And that's where I was saying from that, uh, cinematic tradition is crossing over into our TV worlds. Uh, Gilroy is, of course he himself is a movie producer or a writer and director.

[00:40:39] And so really blending those, those, uh, sensibilities. The timeline is one BBY or one year before the, the year of the battle of Yavin, the clock resets at the time of the Death Star blowing up. And I was trying to figure out, um, what the actual time span is, but it's somewhere

[00:41:01] within about two weeks from Cassian's return to, uh, Yavin to the destruction of the Death Star by Luke Skywalker. So it's within two weeks and, and it, there's enough fuzziness that you can't precisely put it, but it's somewhere in that, in that zone from best as I can tell. And I could be wrong on that, but it's, it's no more than four weeks by any means. I think it's, it's a very short period of time. Interesting. So a summary of the episode is in the series finale, Cassian

[00:41:31] helps Clea escape Coruscant with crucial Death Star intel and, but their return to Yavin is met with skepticism by the rebel leaders who doubt the information. The episode bridges directly into Rogue One as Cassian prepares for his fateful mission. Let's, uh, start really quick on, have you been watching the opening credits music scene with the logo coming up and, uh, the background music for things like this? I watch it the first time and then I never watch it again.

[00:41:59] Right. Okay. That's so that's my standard way to, sorry. Each in, in season one, they did this where, uh, each one, uh, I think it was only in a handful of them that, that, that actually, if you combine the handful of the, the, the prelude music, they actually, um, they actually mirror, uh, the music that the marching band plays, uh, for Mark, for Marva's funeral. And,

[00:42:24] but every time there's that music, it is a prelude, like in a orchestral type of music. It's, it's an amuse-bouche if you're at a table where there's some sort of, uh, uh, clue to what you're going to be feeling or experiencing or thinking about. And one of the things that was in this music is there's a pulsing beat from season one. Yeah. Yeah. And very early on, there's this whoosh sound like a ship whooshing by, but I, I don't understand how to connect that. And then there's the

[00:42:53] sound of sort of horns, which oftentimes are a triumph and whatever. I really want to talk to Mark from Nevermind the Music, one of our affiliate podcasts about, uh, what we're hearing in, in all of these different. I would like him on, uh, actually I'd like both of them on speed dial. I have so many questions about music, but I just went to the discord and I randomly dropped one. He said he'd deal with it in a few months. I, uh, I'm taught, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm dripping into their ears, maybe doing a special Nevermind the Music one where we talk about the psych, cause there's so many interesting psychological

[00:43:20] things. And Nicole is a psych professor, I think would have a great perspective and obviously with the music and stuff. So, uh, we'll see where I, I, I planting seeds, planting seeds, ever plant. I'm like Luthan. I'm out in the galaxy. You are so like Luthan. It's true. I found you. I found Ian. Uh, oh, I didn't find Ian. So, well, anyway, that's a long story, but anyway, lovely, uh, escape from Coruscant as Cassian, Clea, and Melshi prepare to leave

[00:43:48] the ISB tactical team along with supervisor Heert close in on the apartment while major Partagaz coordinates from the command center. A firefight ensues and K2SO clears a path for their escape. Hmm. I was surprised how tense I was considering I've watched Rogue One and I know at least three of these people are going to be absolutely fine. Well, including the droid. It was such

[00:44:15] a good cliffhanger. Um, and also I, I love the whole kind of like SWAT team about to go in thing, which is such a movie cliche, but it was done so well. Um, I mean, they do it in so many other films. I remember the beginning of matrix, which blew my mind in 97, was it 99? Um, where they kind of going in and you're like, Oh, whoever's go, whoever's in that room is in big trouble. And that's exactly how I felt watching this. Yeah. It was very tense, but then they didn't, um, they didn't trick us because we knew K2SO

[00:44:43] was on the rescue, but then, okay, we know how this is going to, like you said, we know how this is going to end, but we don't know how, how it's going to end. Like we don't know how we're going to get to the ending. I think that's super exciting. I thought that, uh, the tax squad too, they, they covered this in, uh, the last, in the previous episode, but as we're getting, as we're getting those establishing shots with the tactical squad, one of the things that they show us there is their equipment and how worn it is and how

[00:45:13] sort of rough it is. And I think for me, one of the signalings was these guys are pros. These guys are intense. They, they really know their job and they're no nonsense type of operators. And so when it, it, I think it really in, in Cassian and Melshi are two of them versus what did we have? One, two, four, four, four, and then, and then here it's in the hallway.

[00:45:40] And then the, uh, then the rest of the team downstairs just shows you the power of K2SO of a KX unit droid. Uh, yeah. I mean, you see that in, in the massacre of Gordman when they come through, it's just like, Oh, there is nothing that is going to stop. I mean, it's, they're terrifying and formidable. And I think, um, I can't remember if it was Alicia's podcast. I mean, the ones that they just covered. It's all the blur. Yeah. It's all the blur. In one of your podcasts, someone was saying, well, you wouldn't in the middle of a massacre, you wouldn't just stop

[00:46:08] and pick up a droid. I'm like, it's so worth it. Um, yeah, you would, you'd be like, that thing needs to be ours. It's such a formidable weapon. Um, and also great personality. Yeah. And Cassian, I think it's really interesting in the previous drop on Gorman when he's shooting the kit. Well, for he, obviously he had the, the first experience with them when he got picked up in season one, literally picked up by one of them. And then in this one, he's blasting it.

[00:46:36] It's having no effect. I was like, Oh, that would be probably a pretty useful thing. Wouldn't it? Like to have on our side a hundred percent. The, uh, something else that was really interesting that I picked up on was the squad leader for the unit that was, you know, assaulting the apartment. He was great by the way. He was, he was really good with his mustache. With his mustache and his accent. Uh, I'm sorry, you know, when, when anyone from the, the, the

[00:47:01] former British empire with, um, your beautiful accents speaks us. Yanks just sort of go weak in the knees. And so, which is, I'm wondering how much of that is actually why my podcast is doing well, but I'm not going to question it. Do not question it. Use the power, use it. And they really leaned into it because let all of the, all of the, the sort of quasi, a lot of these quasi storm troopers, these ISP tactical units that we see have a lot of

[00:47:28] the actors have a British accents. And so, um, they sort of leaned into that. Um, who knows, you know, that's part of, part of, uh, uh, uh, casting and shooting there, but also I think it's, it's also quite a cinematic kind of trope, you know, like the, the kind of, you get villains who have a British empire. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Right. It's yeah. You know, or in season one, the, the commander of that, uh, that inner, uh, I forget the particular

[00:47:54] kind of, um, star ship. It was the one that, that got Luthan in the tractor beam, arrestor class, I think is what it's called. He's got a British accent as well. And he's very sort of military. So. Yeah. I mean, the empire was pretty, yeah, pretty widespread, pretty evil. Yeah. Um, apologies for that. But then, Oh, I know what I was going to say about, about

[00:48:17] that guy, which is his voice tonally sounded a lot like to me, Kino Loy from Narkeen of five. There's a tonal resonance that I was like, Oh wow. And then he even says the words tighten up to his squad. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting. Was, was Kino like, is that a word that they use in the empire?

[00:48:42] I think even Terraman says it in the Aldani raid, he says to them tighten up. So maybe that's a, uh, a common phrase. Yeah. Among troops and people like that. So was Kino in the empire? Um, I don't know that we know. Hmm. So. Um, regarding the beginning of it, because I know that you, you are into your visual, um, visual metaphors, whatever. You're really calling me out a lot on, uh, on the, I love, I love all the visual stuff. And so I'm asking

[00:49:11] you because I like it too. I want to talk about it when you see, um, Claire at the start and it, and it opens up and it's always just so beautiful. And she's the windows behind her. Did you, did you at that point think, okay, she's leaving, she's leaving because the windows behind her or did you just think nothing of it? Cause I always kind of go, Oh, that means I always make assumptions. They're not. Well, that's interesting. I didn't think

[00:49:39] about that. I don't think, I haven't thought about the metaphor, the visual metaphor of a window and what that means for a character. So it gave you a particular signal. Just as in, cause she was on the right side of the frame and then there's Coruscant behind her. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So I just thought when she says, um, you know, she's not very impressed about going to Yavin. Oh, so not before you, so after they get there, right? Yeah. Yeah. I gotcha. I gotcha. At the beginning of episode 12. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, she's

[00:50:06] not excited about going to Yavin. And, uh, I think it really says something about that relationship with Luthin and what that whole means. And, and, uh, so I think I was more keyed in on that. I think I missed the visual of that though. That's interesting. They've been using all season long. They have been using window reflections. So putting characters behind glass with reflections in front of them, as well as frame within frame. So putting a character within the frame of something in the environment, which is then framed by our,

[00:50:36] uh, viewing window. So I have to go back. I missed that one. I I'll have to go back and look for it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, uh, but I assume a lot's happened in the year because when she said, Oh, it's such a, it's a bitter ending to, you know, having to go to Yavin. Yeah. I assume she feels betrayed or something, or that she feels that they, and, and, and we realize that they, they really don't like Luthin at all, um, at all. Um, so

[00:51:04] she's very much on a kind of an opposition side to, to the rebellion, even though she's part of it. Whereas the, yeah, the rebellion on Yavin is we're the legit people and people like Saw and Luthin are these thorns in our sides and she is, uh, uh, firmly within the Luthin camp of things. So, yeah. Uh, you know, and she doesn't even, she knows all about Yavin, but does she know that it's a wet, ugly jungle that, you know, that she's got a, you know, going from Coruscant where you've

[00:51:32] got, you know, good, uh, good takeout shops and things like that. And yeah, good drainage. Exactly. Uh, the, I think it is interesting though, that, that within that frame, I'm just thinking about the apartment more that that's the apartment where so much has happened for our characters. So that was the safe house, right? Where Cassian and Bix were. Yeah. Yeah. They really let that place slide. And I think we were, we were talking on the discord today that maybe Luthin

[00:51:59] had the whole floor and that's why it's all run down is because they've, they've been so busy. They haven't been having other renters on that floor and everything. Uh, because the floor below is fine in the previous episode, we see people. Yeah. Yeah. It's quite nice. Uh, so that's sort of some headcanon that, that people have, but that, that idea that Cassian is standing in the same place that he was talking to Mon Mothma, you know, in the previous. Yeah. And we're like,

[00:52:24] Clea's in Mon Mothma's position and Cathy and standing where he was for. So. Yeah. A couple of, uh, other notes, uh, K2 has a weapon, which is a running gag in rogue one where he never has a weapon. Yeah. And I, I wonder why that is maybe just cause it's like, you don't need one. It's funny. Yeah. You're bulletproof.

[00:52:50] I think somebody said that somewhere, maybe on, on a podcast or the discord that there was some, uh, prohibition of KX units having, you know, carrying weapons. There was some sort of, you know, I mean, I think after Palpatine dissolves the Senate, he could do whatever he want. But I think prior to that, it was like one of the concessions to people like, Hey, these security droids are not going to be armed, which is terrifying because if you think about, uh, the current conflict in, uh, Ukraine, they're using drones based warfare heavily. And like,

[00:53:18] what is that going to do, uh, to the future of warfare when we do have autonomous weapon systems, you know, that are literally launch them and forget about them. Yeah. That's kind of terrifying. Yeah. There's, I can't remember the name of the film that deals with that where you just kind of go into these kind of mobile units and you fight a war from thousands of miles away. Right. Yeah. Good, good sci-fi topic. I suppose the, uh,

[00:53:45] supervisor here to, uh, Jacob James Beswick is the actor getting, being used as a human, literally a human shield. The thing I find funniest about this, I mean, we shouldn't just laugh because, but he's also, first of all, his, I think he's so good. He really hands up this performance in the best way he stands out. I really enjoyed watching him. But the funniest thing about this is you can shoot all day at K2. Nothing's going to happen to him. So he's literally just doing it. Like,

[00:54:13] like I'm just going to do this for no reason whatsoever. Yeah. It's hilarious. There is no reason for him to do it. You're absolutely right. I watched that. I slowed that scene down and watched it a little bit. And the acting that Jake, that, uh, Beswick does flopping around like a rag doll. Uh, so good. I don't know how, like practically how did they shoot that? That's just really incredible to have, you know, the digital stand in behind and then, but have him flopping around. I don't think Alan Tudyk was carrying him around.

[00:54:43] And the CGI, you're right. The CGI, I didn't notice. I didn't think about this. I thought they were like maybe squibs in his armor or something, but it's the CGI of the laser bolts and everything. It's flawless, absolutely flawless. So it's kind of a sick, it kind of a twisted scene to slow down and look at, but slow it down and look at it. Cause it's really good. So, all right. I think we should, uh, uh, sort of move on, um, with on the final note that K2's writing, the writing for K2,

[00:55:11] I assume any doubts about my value have been erased. Comedy gold. But also why is Andor being so mean to him? Why doesn't he answer that question? Why is it like, there's two questions. I can't remember what the other one is, but he just doesn't respond. And it's like, I don't, cause he's laughing at him when they're playing that kind of whatever that is domino game. Yeah. Yeah. That domino's game. Yeah. And so I don't know. I don't know. I just want him to be more pally with K2. Come on,

[00:55:41] you know, you've got it in you. Do you ever, well, I don't know if we shouldn't get into talking about our own parenting styles, but sometimes I just look at my, my daughter and kind of look at her. Oh wait, why are you asking me that? Okay. So maybe it's a parent, parent child. Maybe it's a parent child. All right. Debating Luthen back on Yavin 4, K2 and Melshi are placed on report while Cassian has brought before members of the high council of the Alliance to restore the Republic. I don't know if it's actually called the Alliance to restore the Republic at this

[00:56:10] stage, but that's the formal name at some point. That's a definitely Alicia question who had just been communicating with Saw Gerrera. Cassian reports that Luthen is no more and they have active intelligence about the empire's plan to build a super weapon. Members of the council are skeptical specifically because of the sourcing of the intelligence and they never really

[00:56:35] addressed the intelligence itself. A couple of lore notes. We see a couple of other senators that are in the rogue one movie. So they've really seen that they've pulled all the actors, even the radar techs and other people and the sets. So we see Senator Pamela of Taurus and she's the one wearing the sort of gold. Is that a lame? I'm not sure what that material is anywhere.

[00:57:01] Yeah. And she's also, so the actress is also in Dune. Oh, is she? Yeah. So I kept looking. Oh, is she Lea Kynes? Is she the planetologist? I don't know. She's the one who kind of, and I have read the book, but it was so many years ago. She's the one who's trying to help them escape. Oh, I shouldn't be supposed to. Yeah. Yeah. That's Lea Kynes. Yeah. In the movie, they gender swapped the... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, okay, that's good. I thought I recognized her from the rogue one movies,

[00:57:30] but I knew I recognized her from more, but I didn't look up her IMDb. And then we also see Senator Noer, Noer Jabal of Uhtir. I'm not sure of the planet name. And both of the, he was the gentleman who was sort of rolling his eyes at Cassidy. Yeah. He's horribly annoying, but like in a fun way, like I really don't like that guy. Like working for him would have been horrible. So apparently, according to the Wikipedia art entry, he is the finance guy for the rebellion.

[00:57:59] So, and then we get references to Merrick and Dodonna. Merrick is played. Oh, I had my notes in it here somewhere. I forget where it is. Merrick is played by Ben Daniels and this is Anton Merrick and he's the commander in charge of the fighter squadrons and leader of blue squadron whose spoilers killed on Scarif during the, he's flying one of the X, yeah, the X wings that's

[00:58:24] supporting the ground troops. So, and then Dodonna is the older gentleman with the white beard who gives the briefing, I believe in 77 in front of the PowerPoint presentation about the Death Star. Hmm. So, uh, I have a little audio clip for us from the scene. So let me play that. Tshh. We're talking about someone who's been a thorn in our side since we began building this alliance.

[00:58:51] Did you know him? Any of you? Does anyone in this room besides Senator Mothma have any idea how much you owe him? Oh, please. When I say I know Luthen, I mean I know the good and the bad. I know what was wrong with him. I had a front row seat on that and I made my choice two years ago to join here and be part of this.

[00:59:19] But none of that can take away what he did and how hard it was. I don't know if what he was told is true or not, but it's insulting to hear him run down by people who have given a fraction of his sacrifice to this rebellion. Enough! So, talking about Luthen here. And that's why I think it is that kind of, like, the legacy of Luthen.

[00:59:48] It's so much easier for the Rebel Alliance to deny any knowledge of someone who would be so immoral for the cause. But Handel's got a really good point. Yeah. It makes me think of the line that Luthen says to Mon Mothma way back at the wedding scene. Remember that? The wedding? Gosh. Where he says, oh, how nice for you. Yeah. That you don't have to eat your hands dirty.

[01:00:16] And then when Cassian shoots two people, you know, at the Senate, Chloris, the driver, and the ISB agent, where Mon Mothma is so horrified. Wouldn't you be? Like, I'd be, like, I've never seen a murder. Like, I've never seen action, you know, in real life. I mean, I've seen death, but not in that way. Yeah, sure. No, I haven't seen one. Yeah. Like, none of us have. Like, most of us have not. That's a very rare occurrence.

[01:00:44] And so, suddenly, when you're confronted with it, and Luthen is the guy with the knife in his hand. Yeah. And he's absolutely right. It wouldn't have happened. Like, you can, you can't, like, this wouldn't have happened with just privileged people using diplomacy, which is what they had been trying to do for a really long time. It's such a moral quandary. Like, but then, but then them all kind of looking down upon Luthen. Right.

[01:01:14] And then accusing, accusing Andor of being biased because he knew him. And then Andor's actually, well, well, that's exactly, I know he's bad and he's good. That's exactly why I'm in the position to know. Yeah, it is very interesting.

[01:01:26] And they're more interested in tarnishing Luthen, you know, questioning the validity of the intelligence on sort of a ad hominem-like attack rather than actually vetting the intelligence. And saying, you know, we're saying, okay, we've got this piece of intelligence now. We don't care about it. We care about the fact that where it came from was this guy that we don't like.

[01:01:57] Absolutely. And, I mean, it does get thrown back in because it's Bail Organa who says enough, I think, at that point. Yeah. Yeah. And then when they're like, well, when did you last see him? It's like, oh, you know, when I was rescuing Mon Motha. It's an awkward kind of duly noted because she wouldn't be alive because Bail Organa, it was your team that, you know, had the agent. And I think Bail is a little bit chagriny. Like, you know, yeah, you know, I would have gotten her killed, but it was Luthen who saved her.

[01:02:27] Yeah. Luthen through Cassian who saved her. Absolutely. It was, yeah, it was Luthen's source, the same source, in fact, that is providing them with this information about the Death Star. Because it was Lonnie, right? Yeah. Poor Lonnie. Poor Lonnie. Yeah, poor Lonnie. I made a joke in the Discord today if the actor, I forget his name, I looked up his name earlier.

[01:02:51] If he went on method for his role and just drank a lot of coffee prior to shooting his scenes because he's just, his eye twitches are phenomenal. Yeah. He's really got that physicality down of a guy under a lot of stress. It's funny because I think, when did you know that he was dead? Like, was it after he was dead? Or was it? When, it was a very Cassian thing. I was like, I was thinking, oh, this is Rogue One Tivic, you know, Cassian shooting the guy in the back.

[01:03:19] Like, where Luthen is leaning in and his arm is back a little bit. And again, I didn't know how it was going to be done or how he was going to, they were going to show it to us on screen. But I got in that moment, that was the moment when, just before they end the scene is when I got the sense that, yeah, I don't think, I think Luthen is moving in here. He's positioning himself to be able to do what he's going to do.

[01:03:46] Oh, so I think I have a, my bar for Luthen is lower because I think the minute he said, I have information to tell you, but you have to make sure me and my family are safe. Right. Because thereafter me, I was like, that is a loose end. Luthen is going to tie that up as quickly as possible. He's going to get that information and it is done. Do you think that if they had had more time, because Lonnie says, you know, they're assumed they're already after us. And so Luthen's got to meet with Clea, get back to the shop. And then, then they got to go.

[01:04:15] If they, if he had said, oh, we have a day or something like that, do you think he would have pulled Lonnie out? Potentially. I get the feeling that it honestly depends because, you know, like with Luthen earlier, it's, they know that truths can be tortured out of people. Or if once someone gets caught, they are, they're a liability. Like the fact that, that Clea had to go and murder what was in effect, the only father she knew is for the cause.

[01:04:43] So if it was a viable option. Yeah, I think so. But I think, I think once he tried to kind of negotiate and then he stopped negotiating, like it was a weird tactic from Lonnie as well, because. He said, oh, I've got this information, but I'm not going to give it to you unless you guarantee my safety. But here's the information, you know? And I think we've established, I think they established that in that very first conversation with Luthen and Lonnie in the elevator.

[01:05:12] And then the next, the follow-up one, Luthen has a lot of psychological power over Lonnie. And so I felt like Luthen was using those same tricks to grind him down and push him past that point of, okay, fine, I'll just tell you. So I think it, I think it just goes, I think it's a character moment. It's a character beat for Luthen showing us that this is a guy who's incredible gravitas.

[01:05:38] And if you get into his orbit, whether it's the treasure hunter, you know, art dealer and who's charming and always has the perfect thing to say, or whether you're one of his assets. It's such a funny difference, isn't it? Like when he's got the hair and he's so like smiling and it's such a good difference. Such a great actor. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Let's see here. I feel like I'm going to have to just leave a whole bunch of small breadcrumbs.

[01:06:06] I have so many notes, but I think we're going to leave a lot of the breadcrumbs on the side. I want to just quickly first though, talk about Saw and the break with Saw, who is clearly paranoid and beyond, you know, I'm really glad Wilmon is not with him at this stage. And interestingly, we saw Wilmon with his limbs, you know, his legs, so he's not fully healed. So again, playing with that idea of time within the script. But God, that scene with Wilmon and Saw was so good. Very intense. It didn't go where I, at all where I thought it was going to be.

[01:06:36] But it's interesting because they go from Saw, who's paranoid and crazy, and the writing is brilliant, if only you could fight as well as you lie. And you can see the Senate is exhausted. She says it makes the Senate look easy, doesn't it? So they're exhausted and sort of burned out by this, you know, wild man who has intel from another one of their, oh God, we can't deal with this guy. So they're already exhausted.

[01:07:06] And yeah, and Mon Mothma's sighing in this scene. She does it twice. And it's just so effective. She's just so sick and tired of this. She's like, I used to live in this lovely house. I had the best outfits. And now I'm having to deal with all these crazy men who, yeah. In the bottom of this temple that probably is very, you know, has a nice, damp, moldy smell to it. Yeah.

[01:07:29] Anyway, there's a whole bunch of other stuff we could be talking about around Cassian bending himself into being the role of a captain and subsuming himself to the chain of command when Draven calls him out. Yeah. That is really interesting, though, because we've got Luthan who's been building him up to be a leader. Don't think like a soldier. Be a leader. And now he's being put back into that place where he's not a leader. You will listen to us and you will, you know.

[01:07:56] He starts to talk back and Draven's like, don't do it, man. Like you're going to get yourself in trouble. But then he does. He ultimately does. So really interesting. Let us jump. Oh, and of course, Mon jumping up to give him the concession to go permission to go to the infirmary. You know, she let him get railroaded, but at least she gives him the bone of going to see Clea. Yeah. She jumps in quickly before anyone can say no. Right. Let's take another really quick break.

[01:08:26] And then when we get into the next scenes, it's sort of a three-part passages scene where we've got a bunch of little stuff happening. Be right back. And we're back.

[01:08:56] And my love cat has joined the recording. So if you hear something eating the microphone pop filter, I apologize. So this is, I'm calling this section passages because it's sort of all of these in-between scenes and moving along. And it's sort of in three parts, but it's sort of a chapter in and of its own. Part one, Draven escorts Cassian to the infirmary where Cassian tries to reassure Clea.

[01:09:25] And then Mon, we see a scene of Mon asking Vel to spy on Cassian for her. And then Cassian sharing the news with Wilman. About Luthen. Yes. Yes. Thank you about that. So one of the things that sets this little sequence up is that we get the information that Tivik keeps calling from the ring of Khafrin. And I believe it is a singular. It's not rings. We want to call rings, rings.

[01:09:53] But it is a ring of Khafrin, which is the guy he shoots in the back in Rogue One when he gets the intelligence. And obviously a deep plant within Saw Gerrera's operation. So this idea that, and it keeps getting brought up, that Luthen died for the information.

[01:10:15] So that if this guy did that, then Cassian and Clea are both trying to put that spin on this information. Like, no, guys, this dude who's been running game on Palpatine this entire time, this was his last card that he played to get a system. You don't understand how important that is. And they keep bringing it up as a way to contextualize the intelligence.

[01:10:46] Yeah. It's very interesting. Because, I mean, it's funny as well. Because we all know, I mean, the Death Star is such an integral part of Star Wars. And it's such a powerful, like when Krennic asks Deidre in one of the episodes, he's like, say it, why would I be here? You know? And then she says it. And I'm like, she said it. It's so exciting. And yeah, it is absolutely important.

[01:11:14] And the fact that they are all trying to diminish the importance of this is so frustrating as a watcher. Like, you're like, I hate all of you. Listen to Cassian. It's because I know. But yeah. It's good writing, right? It is really good writing. It's a tension release, right? That's, you know, having drama. Like, we're building the tension across the story. You've got a note here about Clea in the hospital bed. Yeah. I was just, so Cassian goes in and he's saying, look, it's not the hero's welcome.

[01:11:43] I said it was going to be. And he's talking to her. But she doesn't say a single word in response. She just lies there and listens to him. And I mean, Clea's come out. I mean, she's such a fan favorite now, I think. Like, over social media and people are like, she's, you know, they thought there were three of them going into the hospital. And it's just her. And she's so capable. And you see her background story when she's haggling as a child. She's such a capable agent. But she's so out of her comfort zone now. She does not want to be on Yavin.

[01:12:13] And then she ends up wandering around because she doesn't know how to get out. Have you seen the meme that's going around with the rebellion? It's a picture one. And it's a picture of Luthen, Mon Mothma, and Clea at the shop. And it says, rebellion at 100% strength. And then the next picture down has Luthen and Mon Mothma missing. And it's just showing Clea. It says, the rebellion at 99% strength. Yeah.

[01:12:43] She's so capable. Yeah. Yeah. She's, I just love- Did you catch the little tidbit that this is her first professional acting gig? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's phenomenal. It's going to be hard now. She's going to have a hard go. Yeah. There's a lot riding on her now. Do you think Vel was a little hurt that she wasn't included in the rescue mission? I don't know what's happened in the last year, David.

[01:13:12] I don't know how close these guys are. Maybe, but I also, oh, I don't know. It's that negative space, right? Like, we expect Andor to go. He's always going to go. He's always going to, like, doesn't she at some point say she needs to stop? He needs to stop saving people. Like, that's what he does. Right. And that's something, that's totally something that I would say to a family member about another family member. Oh, how's so-and-so? Well, you know, they're doing that thing.

[01:13:42] And like, oh yeah, I know that thing. So she's totally tagging him in that regard. Yeah, but I imagine, I mean, they're all going to have really complicated relationships with Luthun. But perhaps Vel is the most complicated with everything that happened with Sinta and the fact he was keeping them apart. And I feel like Clay has probably had the best of Luthun. The best and the worst, though. No? He taught her to kill at an early age.

[01:14:12] Yeah, but she- Well, she witnessed it at an early age. Yeah, but I think her radicalization was so innate from the fact that she was saved from what seemed to be some kind of child murder, massacre, genocide, whatever. Right. And- Ethnic cleansing on a planetary scale. Yeah, whatever you see in those flashbacks, there's no-

[01:14:35] Okay, there's a little bit of hesitation about pressing that button, but she is so eager to be getting on to ruin the empire and take such an active part that I don't think it's a passive thing for her at all. Right. There was some other Discord conversation today about what's going to happen. You know, people just sort of doing some fun fan speculation about Clea's future.

[01:15:02] And I had the thought, but man, she's going to have a hard time starting to trust people again because she's lived in this world of secrecy and lies and shadows for so long. And I think Luthen even says to Mon Mothma at some point about being bent by the fact that, you know, how secrecy bends us all. And for her to- Well, we'll get to that scene later. There's a great line later coming up. Let's save that. Let's save that. Okay. So-

[01:15:32] I thought it was interesting too, just a funny little thing when Mon Mothma goes to Val and is like, help me, Val, you're my only hope. I caught a little bit of that. But, you know, interesting. Yeah, just again, these family dynamics, right? That Val and Mon Mothma are actually related, but in a way they're all related to Luthen. You know, maybe Mon Mothma is the sister to Luthen.

[01:16:00] And then it's the children and the grandparents and the, you know, and just the way that families shape us and our relationships to ourselves and the relationship to the world are just so affected by our familial relationships. And no matter what state those are on. Yeah, exactly. Right. Part two, this is a little bit of a combined scene.

[01:16:28] I sort of took one end of the scene and plugged it into the other side of it. Val and Cassian drink to Luthen and to lost comrades. And Val vets the intel from Cassian. as Vel leaves, she tells Cassian that she should maybe reconnect with Bix and then she encounters Clea in the rain. And do I have where to, yeah, so then we'll just pick up the rest of the Vel and Clea scene on the end where they sit and they actually

[01:16:57] talk. But to start this off, I've got another audio clip for us. Will you drink to Luthen? Just this once. Can't toast them all, can we?

[01:17:31] Gorn. Nemec. Taramin. Sinta. The Gormans. Erex. Your mother. The Darnies. Aldani. When Cassian says

[01:18:01] Sinta, the look on Vel's face, it just, it I came close to just being broken. Just turning off the episode and walking away. Yeah. That was really intense. I listened to your episode on that and I think Marilyn was being quite kind to the guy that shot. Sam. Sorry, who got Sinta shot. Yeah. Yeah. And who's an active combatant in the Gorman massacre?

[01:18:30] Like he's there fighting. Yeah. And, you know, he's kind of redeeming himself. But when I was listening, I was like, I am not ready to forgive this man. I do not think Vel was too harsh. I think she got it just right. But he was just a kid. I get it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's one of the powerhouse moments of this season where we get these monologues that are a real stamp of the show. Oof. Yeah. I think when I go back. Amazing ones. Yeah, exactly. And I think there are these really defining moments where a character

[01:19:00] says something that they're saying in world, but they're also saying something to us. And I think the show does that expertly. That they never feel like monologues. They never feel like, okay, now I'm going to exposit my internal, you know. Yeah. You're right. It's been so long since I've seen you. Let me catch you up on what happened the last year. You know, no, it's they're really in the world. Their characters are really doing the thing. And it seems authentic for the character to have a little rant

[01:19:30] or whatever it is they're doing. That's one of my bees that I get in my bonnet is when there's over-exposition. Except in one of our favorites, which is Big Trouble in Little China, in which they have that the lawyer friend is like little miss exposition. I just love it. I will watch it over and over. And I just love the fact that it's her only role in the film. Sorry. So when you get to that, when you get up to that film in your coverage, can I please, please, please? It's not sci-fi. Oh. Can we do a one shot on it?

[01:20:00] Maybe we should do something. Yeah. We've got to find out the anniversary year for it and then we can do a one shot on it. Yeah. I love that film so much. It's so funny. We're of that generation for sure. Anyway, I love how Cassian throws out Cinta, but then she throws back Marva. It's like, okay, yeah, Cinta, that one hurts, but I know for you Marva is one. It's not like they're trying to do tit for tat. No, she's not. She mentions a few other people and then, yeah.

[01:20:29] And then she drops Marva on it. Yeah. Yeah. So good. And, you know, Vel never met her, but she spied on her and was there when, you know, they had her funerary. So it's also funny because, um, and does got this habit of trying to run away. Um, and so he goes to Marva and he tries to run away and then he goes back to Bix and he's like, let's run away. And then, you know, when he's dealing with Claire, he's like, I'm out of here. And so it's funny that it's always the women who were like, no, we're part of the revolution. I'm sorry.

[01:20:59] We're not leaving this. Gotta stick around. Yeah. Yeah. And I think Gilroy has been on, on interviews where he's talked about the, the women, uh, in the show and, notably, there are not any women in the writer's room or credited writers. Uh, but he does center, uh, a bunch of women characters as the real, um, keystone elements. Keystone's the wrong, the wrong word, but really important characters that shape the whole rebellion. Uh, so Clay,

[01:21:28] I'm on Mothma, Val, uh, we also have Bix. Um, who else? Who am I forgetting? I know I'm forgetting somebody. Anyway, uh, there's this line you and I were texting prior to jumping on recording that, uh, and I think it's a really, really smart line. I was confused about this line about Aldani. Yeah. And Cassie says, oh yeah, I've heard people talking like they were there on Aldani and, and Vel says, I'd shoot anybody if I, if I heard that.

[01:21:59] This is something that is very common in, you know, when, when former soldiers get together and maybe you were just a cook or maybe you just a cook, you know, whatever your, your service was not frontline combat, but then people talking about, oh, I was there, I saw it, or even in, not even in military, just in, I'm sure in hacker circles or in, in other things. Or in life, people exaggerate, right? Like people are like, yeah, yeah, there was an incident and I was there. Yeah. Exactly. And oh, you should have seen

[01:22:28] the look on his face and blah, blah. And so I think this is, that one little exchange opens up the world to the fact that, yeah, this is not a two dimensional story about these mythohistoric characters. This is a complex society of people who are struggling to build a rebellion. And when you have this huge encampment, people are going to sit around and they're going to talk and they're going to tell stories. And so it really, I think the line,

[01:22:57] opens up the world for us in such a smart way. Yeah, it does. And the idea that, you know, this perfect rebellion where, you know, Luke leads the way and all the good guys are on one side. There's also people just sitting around lying about how great they are, just like any other place on earth. Exactly. So, Vel doesn't mince words. She just says, hey, I'm here to spy on you. Like what's up with Luke and the information? Because, you know, spying is what you do to me. Yeah.

[01:23:26] Spying is what you do to the enemy, not to your friends. And I think there's a really key point too, which is, Vel is the one that gives Cassian Nemec's manifesto. He has her at gunpoint and she's pissed because she doesn't know if he killed Skeen for what reason. Yeah. But she has such a sense of honor that she's going to carry out Nemec's last wishes

[01:23:55] and give him this thing. Vel is a really honorable character, actually, generally. Yeah. So, when she says, I'm not going to spy on you, just tell me what happened with Luthien. Yeah. She's like, my cousin came, she wants to know, tell me. We have that, right? We were on all Donnie together. Oh, which is great. It actually solidifies their relationship even more now that we think about it because they have all Donnie as this common connection. They can speak truth to each other in a way that they are

[01:24:25] honor each other. Do you think, do you think Vel knows about Bix? Yes. She's like, hey, you want to call Bix? Because maybe you might want to, you know, hear it from her. Yeah. How have the last nine months been for Bix? Do you know? Well, a lot can happen in nine months. I don't know. I don't know if they're even human in that way. Maybe they have longer,

[01:24:55] like pregnancies, but yeah. Or shorter, yeah. Yeah, I think she knows because she's quite insistent on it. Yeah. And possibly more insistent than she's been before. Like, they've seen each other in the last year. So, yeah. Yeah, she knows. Yeah, she knows. Absolutely. And then we have this reunion of Vel and Clea, who have a really fraught relationship. How did you, so again, this is a little bit out of sequence, but I'm tacking it on into here. Yeah, I mean,

[01:25:24] it's implied that they had a relationship. We don't know much about it. But we saw it on screen, like when they were in the shop together and arguing or when they're at the wedding, like, what are you doing here? Yeah. And that stuff. Yeah, but as in, we didn't see the nice part of the relationship. Yeah, I thought that was really interesting and I think it's, I think the death of Luthen has really hit Clea. She's now stuck somewhere. What does she say? She says,

[01:25:55] Luthen used to always say, know your way out and she's stuck somewhere where she doesn't know how to get out at all. She doesn't even know where she is. Like, you're talking about trust and stuff, but she doesn't know where she is. She doesn't know how to get out. She doesn't know anyone there and her whole world where she knows how to maneuver through it is gone. And so she's just taken off all of her medical aids, whatever they are, and started wandering through this absolute downpour into a jungle looking for a way out. I don't know. She's probably going to get eaten by one of those big things

[01:26:25] that came and got those other guys. Exactly. The Maya Bay people, yeah. So, yeah, that's interesting. But Val gives her safe haven she's like, get some sleep. And, yeah, I mean, she tries to tell her that there's friends. What is it? I have friends everywhere and you're surrounded by friends. But doesn't that line do so much? It's a safe word. It's their safe word, right? It's the key that unlocks Luthan's world. And so

[01:26:54] she's signaling to Clea, I'm an ally. We have this, you know, we're playing spies again. You can be safe with me. But at the same time, you're among friends. We got you. Yeah. I'm going to cry here. I'm going to start crying in this. Yeah. This is so powerful. Because I feel like Vel's the first person. I mean, I'm sure that

[01:27:23] the other people know he's dead, but did she say that I was like a one-man army and I went in and killed him and came out? I don't know. It feels like Vel's the first person she's confided in. Yeah. And she says, oh, you know, it had to be done. And Vel says, it gets tiring saying that. Like, there is that connection there of having to do the things you don't want to do. So, I think there is a connection there. But I hope Kalea's okay. As I said, I don't mind if they don't do any offshoots, but I don't know.

[01:27:53] The way Kalea's come out in the last few episodes, it would be interesting to see what happens with her. What kind of makes it thinking about Kalea and her peeling, right, you know, coming around to she's got a lot of trauma packed into that head of hers. That she, you know, she's not going to have a lot of time to settle down because before too long, they have to go to the Arctic.

[01:28:23] They got to go to Hoth. And so, it's not over for any of them. And I'm just like, oh, can we get Vel, or can we get Kalea to go with Bix, you know, please, to go there. She needs a break, guys. She really does. She really does. All right, so let's wrap up this third passages part. As Kalea gets up to take a walk in the rain, we hear a voiceover of Nemec. And then we, and then the scene

[01:28:52] shifts to Partagaz on Coruscant listening to Nemec's manifesto. Supervisor Legrette comes to collect Partagaz. This may be my favorite bit from the episode. Tell me more. Just because you see Kalea getting up, you see, you know, you hear it, you're like, okay, something cheesy is going to happen, but then it's not cheesy. It's like, really, really powerful because Partagaz is there. He's playing the recording. He, he is nonstop being, talking about how,

[01:29:22] you know, him and the Empire are like a, what, what does he say? Something along the lines of there's some kind of health service and they help. Yeah, yeah, their healthcare. Yeah, yeah. And he views the, he views the rebellion as a disease. And now this recording of Nemec is spreading through the Empire. And so, yeah, he's like, have you heard it? It's just, it's so powerful. You can see the effect it's having on him and, and it's dawning on him. I mean, he's been such a cold character all the way through.

[01:29:52] What does he say about the Gormans? He's like, oh, well, whatever it is, you know, like, God luck Gormans. Yeah, like he does not care at all and he does not see for a second why that isn't okay. And then he's hearing Nemec's really, you know, idealistic speech. Young idealism. Yeah. And it's so beautiful. And he must know the effect that's having as it's just being broadcast and spread across everywhere. Um, and it's being spread like a disease,

[01:30:21] which is what- Isn't it interesting then when, uh, Heert gets his orders for the APB, he's like, what is, what are we stitching her up for? Murder, sedition? Yeah. And he says, she's infected. Yeah. She's a disease. She's got a communicable disease. God, the writing! Yeah, the writing! It's this intricate jewel and there's all these little things that we don't, that it actually takes, uh,

[01:30:50] a concentrated effort to think and unpack these little things because we get them in the moment when we're watching them but then to actually take out that, that aspect and then start to examine it and, and from different sides. God, I love- And that thread or that theme is just through so many different, yeah, different elements. It's so- Anton Lesser is a goat. Yeah. He's an absolute incredible actor. There's this, and I,

[01:31:20] I was trying not to, we were joking, you and I were joking in prep, uh, about screenshotting the episode and, and, uh, posting, you know, and if I, I want, I've gone on some blue sky, uh, thread storms where I'm screenshotting and then, you know, posting, look at this scene and look at that scene and I couldn't, I was, I couldn't do it for episode 12 because otherwise it would have taken me a week to do my notes and the outline to prep. But I, there was a couple of scenes that I could not help do and one of them is

[01:31:51] as we pan back and just before the doors close, we have this room that we have spent so much time in and the up and down are perfectly mirrored so right in the middle of the frame is the artificial horizon of the, of the up and the down and the reflection and they've been using reflections all over uh, this is this, some, this visual motif. I don't know what it all means but it's, it's present in so many places and here's the power, the absolute power

[01:32:20] and the might of the state of the empire. Here is the thing that is, is the healthcare you know, right, that's eradicating disease, this is the center of that power and here's this tiny, frail, old man sitting his last moments being used up by the empire and visually just incredible, just an incredible shot. I, I took, after you taught me the, the screenshot trick, I also took at least three of that,

[01:32:50] of that image. And then there's the scene too when, uh, when Partagaz is listening, he stops it and he asks Legret, you know, have you, have you heard it as well? And Legret is, is talking a little bit and we get this profile shot of Partagaz and he just seems so old and frail and worn down where before he has been this man who has been in command and, and, and on top of everything

[01:33:19] and on top of every detail and in this moment he's just so exhausted and frail and small. Do you, do you think he's, like, does he think, okay, the disease has spread and it's spread to me or is there a part of him that, like when he hears the manifesto, is there a part of him that kind of understands the appeal of it because now he's facing the wall and it's, he knows it's over for him. The Empire is not going to be like, hey,

[01:33:49] go into retirement, buddy, you know, that's not going to happen. And also I found it really funny because I didn't realise Krennic was kind of above Partagaz until the last, in the last few episodes where he says something like, I'm not going to be able to protect you and I was like, what? And then I saw that Krennic had a cape and I was like, oh, cape, cape definitely means that he's, he's got a whole bunch of more pretty colours on his chest as well. And does he have the, more of those little pen things that they have?

[01:34:19] Yeah, those are like, what, communication things or something. Again, don't add us. I think they're keys to access different, like you've got more access or something like that. Don't add us if you, don't get mad at us, you know, write in if you want to let us know but don't get mad because we don't know that lore. Yeah, just, you know what, they are pens. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to find me? Are you going to find me? One's a mechanical pencil, one's a pen. They're all different colours so you can like feel the rainbow. the multi-pen. Definitely a feature of our childhood. Definitely. So that's what

[01:34:49] the Empire give you when you're really special. Brilliant line too when he says, I can't protect you, Leo. They know each other, they're on first name basis. Were they at Academy together? Have they come up together? They had to work together to keep the Death Star secret plan secret? Incredible. Yeah. And it's, I always wonder what friendships like that, I mean, the fact that he even says that rather than ignoring him and being like, well, there goes that guy, suggests some kind of like camaraderie, which, yeah, but they understand the boundaries of that is within

[01:35:19] the systems of power and if Partagaz is going to lose his power, then it's bye-bye, I guess. And this is this whole angle of conversation that's been happening. We have some articles on our blog about it, again, discussion on the Discord about not only the banality of evil and the sort of the administration of evil, but that evil sows the seeds of its own destructions and we see that when the TAC unit, there aren't any other TAC units to support

[01:35:49] the assault on the safe house because they're all busy chasing this lead. The diseased woman. Yeah, the disease or the shutting down the feed in the Senate where it's like, well, we were following imperial protocol and the key is upstairs where it's supposed to be. What do you mean? You know, and again, so this idea that Nemec says is that control is brittle. It breaks, it leaks. And so... And tyranny takes, I can't remember the words, but tyranny takes a lot of effort type of thing. Yeah, exactly.

[01:36:19] And so here we have, and we see this in the movies and stuff like that where a senior general commander whatever screws up, you know, and Vader chokes them out and then the next guy is going, do I really want that job? Because now I'm, what do I get? I get a lot of stress and anxiety. more pay? Like what? You know, more time off? And so that the sort of evil empires are ultimately undermining themselves

[01:36:48] at all these times because people, there is not a respect, hey, you know, you're human, you screwed up, that's okay. It's not that you screwed up, it's that we are going, how do we fix the screw up? How do we go forward? What do you learn from this? You have agency. How are you going to grow as an individual if you don't make mistakes? And in this world, you don't make, when you make mistakes, you end up in a cell on Narkina. Yeah. Are we going to talk about the montage next? Because it's a good one. We will. We're getting there. We're almost there. We've got a couple more. Oh yeah, where it is,

[01:37:18] is the next scene about this. I want to point out Michael Jones, Michael Jen, who plays Legrette, who, Legrette, he has Legrettes. I don't know, sorry, my head is now starting to do that thing where words and sounds have no meaning in my brain anymore. Yeah. Anyway, the actor who plays Legrette, when he walks in and he says, I've been sent to take you down and Partaga says, I'm just going to take a moment. Oh my God, I'm going to cry.

[01:37:46] I'm crying for her. Don't cry for the ISB. What the hell are you doing to me, Gilroy? And Legrette acknowledges it and has a moment of like, I get it, I respect, I thank you for all that you did for me as a person, even though you treated me like hell. Do you think he does that? Watch that scene. Watch Legrette. Okay, I'm going to watch it for the third time, okay? Yes, exactly. Slow it down. Or is it just a case that when you're in the Empire,

[01:38:16] they know the ending's going to be bad. That too. You know what, like they know when he says, can I have a moment? They know what's going to happen. He doesn't want to go and end up on Ikeena 5. He's like, yeah, sure, go for it. Never liked you anyway. In some cases, it's going to be that way. Yeah. But absolutely check out what Legrette's series of reactions because there's like three or four state changes that he goes through. Okay. And it's a brilliantly sublime performance.

[01:38:46] Okay, I'll go back and look at that. And then when he's sort of these stormtroopers on a leash, right? When he holds up his hands. no, not yet. Yeah. And then he bows his head slightly. And just this idea like stormtroopers are like dogs, right? You let them off the leash and you run or, you know, they're under control. Powerful, really powerful stuff. All right, let's take one final break and then when we get back, we will talk about the wrap up of the scene and then we've got a couple

[01:39:15] of feedback emails. And we're back. So, coming to the end here.

[01:39:46] Woo! Lots of feels. Melshi and K2 return home of comedy gold. Yeah. And K2 is briefed by Draven regarding Tivik on Kafreen. Mothma and Draven confront Organa and then K2 wakes Kassian from his dream of Kanari so that Bale can give Kassian his mission. I love the way K2 wakes him.

[01:40:15] And then he goes, it's always weird making humans. Then he's like, oh, and it's that guy that you don't like or hate. I just love him. The man you don't like is here. Gold. Absolute comedy gold. And this is superior writing because they're not, these jokes are not placed in time. They're not, they're not specific to our current zeitgeist or what's funny in the market. This is going to be funny forever. Right? It's, it's so, so good.

[01:40:45] And you don't have to be, I have a, there's a criticism I have of a couple of the sequel movies where they try to play up the humor, but it's like, like a, there's like a knock knock joke or the bad telephone when Poe is calling in on the thing and he's, he's doing some sort of, I'm like, no, that's not humor. This is humor. This is, this is what's funny forever. Right? Yeah. I might get in trouble with people who like that movie. So don't at me. Yeah. Leave us alone guys.

[01:41:15] Yeah. So before we get into the montage scene, I do have a little, a final audio clip for us of Bale and Cassian. General Draven has your orders. Proceed to your contact. Learn what you can. Do it quickly. Can I ask what changed? If I die fighting the empire, I want to go down swinging.

[01:41:49] You find that amusing? No, but you and Luthan would have gotten along much better than you think. May the force be with you, Captain. Thoughts on Benjamin Bratt as, um, Bale Organa? Yeah, I think he does a good job. I,

[01:42:18] I think there was some kind of upset about him playing him, I think. Um, the internet's going to internet, right? Yeah. So I think he's done a good job. I think it's absolutely fine. Um, I think he carries it well. I don't have an issue with it. Sorry. I'm going to go a step further and say, I think that Bratt has brought something new to the dimension of, um, of Bale Organa. Mm. I love Jimmy Smits as Bale Organa because he's,

[01:42:48] Jimmy Smits is a, a physically imposing man and he's very calm and smooth. Mm. And I love that, the, that idea of Bale is, is kind of swanning along on the surface. You see him just gliding effortlessly. Mm. But, something that I find interesting about Bale Organa as well and tune into the Holocron episode which should be out this weekend where we get into the, the deeper details of his character which I don't know. But he's a,

[01:43:18] he is a skilled political operator. Mm. And he knows how to, um, to punch you where it hurts and he knows how to manipulate you in the ways that he wants and he does it effortlessly and, and seeming to have clean hands. And, something that I think Bratt does that, that he brings to the role. So, he, you're, you're right, you're, I, I absolutely agree. He did the job competent. Like, like, he didn't mess it up. And, but I'm,

[01:43:47] I would advocate for the fact that he's added something new to our understanding of Bale. maybe a bit of an edge? Exactly. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. That he's actually a little bit more, we see a little bit more of the, the, the side that knows how to fight and fight dirty. And, and he's not afraid to, you know, he knows how to, how hard to hit when he needs to hit. Yeah. And also, completely unrelated. Why is, his tailor come with him to,

[01:44:17] because he still seems to dress well. Anyway, sorry. Exactly. It's a very good point. But you made a really good point. It's a very good point. And it's the exact costume that Jimmy Smits has in Rogue One as far as I can tell with the three, his three multicolored pens in his chest pockets there. I'm glad that you're going to have to deal with the, the feedback emails. The feedback of this? And not me. Yeah. We'll take it. It's fine. The, where are you,

[01:44:46] do you have a, an opinion on the whole Cassian sister storyline? And, you know, should it have been Clea or not? No, I don't think it should have been Clea at all. And I think that, the tragedy, I mean, obviously you've got Andor at the beginning, he's somewhat delusional that his sister's still out there. Maybe he's heard some rumors, maybe some, sadly, children and women as, as often as the case have been, you know, trafficked. So he's going to look for her, but it, it's, it's,

[01:45:16] again, it's ground, this, even though it is sci-fi and it is, you know, all up in this galaxy and everything a long time ago, there is something really grounded in this. And the fact that he doesn't find her is just far more realistic in this whole scenario. And I think it would have been, like, sometimes those connections are fine and they don't really bother me. Like when they, when Leia ended up being Luke's sister, it doesn't bother me. I mean, it makes the first episode, I mean, the first film really weird,

[01:45:46] but it doesn't bother me. It's okay. But it's just, I don't know, there's, there's more gravitas to not have him, like, it's, it would make more sense that that would never happen. In any case, yeah. And I think it's, I've been on both sides of it. There was a couple of times in this drop and in the, in the last couple where I thought that they were laying track for that. And with, you know, oh, is that, you know, is Clay's planet, was that Canary after they were coming to clean up after that ship had crashed to erase out, you know, like I,

[01:46:16] I started my, my, one, my, my fan side of my brain that wants to make those kinds of connections and ship that couple, you know, those two coworkers to have that relationship or whatever. It went into overdrive and that's, I think, part human nature that we want connection and we want to establish pattern. But then also just our TV watching brains are so conditioned for that kind of stuff. At the end of Friends, everybody is paired up and, you know, goes off together again.

[01:46:46] Yeah, and I don't really like that. Yeah, and I don't like that. And also it, like if it, if it doesn't connect, it actually shows how much more kind of brutal this world is that this is quite a common occurrence for children to get massacred or whatever, whatever it is. That's a really good point. Yeah, we're, or another one of those scenarios, why didn't Luthin press a little button and blow up the entire shop and the whole

[01:47:16] and everything? Yeah, that I wondered about because he poured the thing and then someone rang at the door and I was just like, don't get it. You don't need to get it. Keep pouring. Yeah. Keep pouring. You could be somewhere else. Just keep pouring it. Blow it up. There is nobody at that door. Surely there's a little sneak thing. You can see who's there. totally see. You do not need to go out but it was a great scene after that. So yeah. Yes, it was. Yeah, we'll take it. Yeah. But I think, yeah, coming back to your point about the reality, the grim reality of it

[01:47:45] and an orphan like, and we have orphan stories in Star Wars all over the place. We have slavery. We have illicit drugs. We have crime syndicates. It's all there. And there's been some great conversations about gender relationships and portrayals of women and women's issues on the Discord and we've had some feedback about that and I know we've collected a couple of emails

[01:48:15] so that when John, Alicia and I talk, we're going to touch on that a little bit more. But yeah, it's a really good point. I forget who it was on the Discord. Somebody was talking about this sort of issue too of child violence. Ahsoka. I don't know if you've watched much of the Ahsoka, anything animated or on live action. She was a child soldier recruited by the Jedi to be a general and to

[01:48:45] reeve against their enemies. So yeah, that's interesting. So I'm going to harp on something really quick before we get into the montage which, again, no mention of Erso, no setup for Erso. So for laying all this work, all this track to connect to... For the djinn variety of Erso. Yeah, like not even a name drop of, you know, they've name dropped some other characters and stuff. Maybe they don't know about her yet. Like they know about Galen because, you know, like he's just heard about Galen Erso

[01:49:15] and all. So maybe they're going to do their intel and find out that he had a child and is that child still alive? Which I get. I totally get. And so the only thing we don't know is from the time that Cassian is on the ring of Kafreen to the time that Melshi's squad springs djinn, we don't know what that overlap is. And so, and they just don't even say anything about it. But it suggests it's quite soon. So that intel might come, yeah, again. Very soon, right? So that's where I'm saying it's like, oh,

[01:49:44] I'm a little bit... And djinn, like, come on, man, djinn, like, let's talk about her and bring her... She is integral to the story of this and I just feel like they kind of short-shifted her slightly. I didn't need her on screen, but just some sort of indication that we're moving. Because they lay... I'm going to stop in a second, I promise. They lay so much groundwork for Rogue One that that little... That piece of intelligence, oh, the daughter of is here and she used to be associated with, you know,

[01:50:14] that stuff. All right, I'm done. Yeah. Moving on. Let us talk about... Oh, last thing about the dream and the sister thing. Because he was dreaming of Canary and we see his sister, that is the one thing I was like, wait a minute, are they going to resolve it? And they didn't, right? So it threw me for confusion. I took the Force Halo route and I was like, you'll be seeing a sister very soon. That's true.

[01:50:44] True. All right, let's talk about the montage. Cassian suits up, waters his plants and then walks to the landing pad. As the music swells, we get a montage of scenes. We see Melshi's squad exercising. We see Wilman and Drina having breakfast together. Then we see Vel and Mon having breakfast together. We see Perrin and Runai Skulden. And I'm going to say this for

[01:51:13] our good friend Jordan. Skuldoon. We see Clea. We got an email about my pronunciation of Skulden's. It's a wink and a nod to one of our dear listeners, our dear friends of the podcast. We see Clea waking up that I think is at Vels. Oh, yeah. And then she sees the squad and there's a slight smile on her face. Yeah, yeah. We see Dedra in an Arkena-style prison. We see the Force Healer.

[01:51:42] We see Saul Guerrera on Jedha. And then we see Krennic looking at the Death Star. And then Cassian flies up and away into the blue. Hmm. Ooh. Yeah. Feels. Lots of feels going on. Yeah. So yeah, that's Melshi's squad that we see on Wobani when they rescue Jyn Erso. And then we also see that squad on, there's a character Poe

[01:52:10] who's sort of a reptilian almost like guy. We see him there. So we see a lot of those same actors on Scarra and on the Wobani run. Interesting, when early on in season one when we first meet the character Tim, Bix's boyfriend at the time, he asks her, hey, are we bidding on the Wobani run? And that's a planet that Jyn is ultimately prison on. Interesting. And it's also interesting

[01:52:39] what kind of prison when we get to Rogue One that Jyn is in. It's not like one of those Narkina-style prisons. No, that's interesting. Yeah. So they have lots of different kinds of prisons that, you know, they're not all. I suppose the Narkina type are the ones that are more secret and they're building the Death Star and then they might just have your regular old prisons where they don't do that. It was funny because when they showed Dedra in that montage, I thought she was still in that kind of interrogation room.

[01:53:09] And then they started to pull out and I was like, oh, that is, that is karma. That is such a fitting ending for her. Yeah, very interesting. She doesn't even know that Cassian was in that prison while they were looking for him. Right? The irony of that. Yeah. And then when the lights go out and she flinches. Mm. Ah, just incredible. And I don't know if you noticed too, the person in the bunk above her was another woman so I think they have it, it's a gender segregated prison.

[01:53:39] Mm. And I can't remember if it was social media or somewhere or someone said something like, oh yeah, but she's going to get like, her segment in that prison is going to be running so efficiently if she, if she can see her way through, right? Yeah. She's pretty psychologically devastated, so. Yeah. It's tough. Wilman and Drina, a nice little happy ending, a little bit of hope for us there. You know, people carry on.

[01:54:09] He finally found somebody that he can be with. Yeah. He left his other girlfriend who probably hangs out with Vix, but you know. Right. Yeah. Young love. Vel and Mon having breakfast together. That was quite sweet. And it's because she says, I thought we'd be going to meet at breakfast and they do. And Mon just out there with everybody, right? You know, she's the, you know, the leader of this, you know, one of the high council members. A lot of people didn't catch that Perrin was with the wife of Davos.

[01:54:38] Skuldoon. Skuldoon. Skuldoon. I'm going to do it now. Skuldoon. So that was interesting. I recognized her by her hair. Oh, I recognized her from like, she stood out as a character. Um, and then they're just kind of both drinking. So I don't know. I don't know what's implied by that. If they're both. And also what's happened to husband? Like, has he perished? Has he been imprisoned? Does he, like what's happened? Because he was. Negative space. Yeah. It's, it's interesting, but oh my God,

[01:55:08] her daughter. I'm so sad about her. She was such a brat, but she was a teenager. You know? Yeah, exactly. Uh, there, if you don't want to hear this part of the story, it's not really a spoiler. It's sort of a, after, uh, after market, uh, article that somebody posted on our discord, skip ahead, uh, couple, like a minute or something. But I don't know if you saw this, that the writer of the, of that sequence of one of those sequences,

[01:55:35] there was a scene that got caught of Mon going to, uh, Shundrilla and, uh, confronting Perrin. No. Do you want me to tell you or do you want me to keep it? Yes. No, I want you to tell me. And she says to him, uh, I'm going to be going away now. So you need to look after Lita. And he says to her that I'm just summing up this article. Uh, you could have trusted me all along. I knew, I knew what you were doing. Is that real?

[01:56:05] Or did someone just make that? It was a scene that was cut from the scripts. That just puts him in such a different light though. So, so, so much. Like I really didn't like him and now he's a good guy. They showed, like, I remember all the scenes of, of him watching conversations or looking over his shoulder. Oh, I see you talking to that person down at the end of the hall, or we're at this cocktail party. I see you talking to, you know, Tay, your boyfriend and all this kind of stuff.

[01:56:35] So he was paying attention though. You know, he's military, right? He had a military service and he's not a, he's a playboy, but he's not, he's not unintelligent. Right. Oh, that's a really good scene. Yeah. I think it's on the, there's an article in the, in the discord. Okay. So I'm really sad that they cut that out. What a hit. I keep thinking of this thing. It's like, okay, I get it. You don't want to do five year, you know, five, five seasons. Cause that's like 15,

[01:57:04] 20 years of your life, right? The way that these things need to be put together. But do you think you could have done three? We could, could we have had one more season? Yeah. Please. Yeah. To flesh some of these out. We saw that one scene. I just want that. We're back in. Mr. Gilroy. I know you're not listening, but please. I really liked the fact that they did give, right. That they use, that they give us the scene of Cassian and the force healer having that little connection. Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. No, I,

[01:57:33] I, I know sci-fi isn't supposed to go into the mystical and magical very often, but I love all that stuff in Star Wars. And when they had the force healer scene, I was like, this is like having a piece of pepperoni in my breakfast cereal. Like these things don't go together. Right. I'm so used to, yeah, I get that. Yeah. You know, or for some people it might be pineapple on pizza. That, that might be the opposite, you know, the, the inverse of the same, like this doesn't belong with that. But then when I rewatched that scene,

[01:58:03] I was like, no, okay, I'm fine. I'm, I totally get it. I'm fine. And it, it does what it needs to do into resituating it into that. There, people in this world would not be on a regular level of interaction with force users, given the timeframe and the number of people who are actual, you know, how actually are trained to use the force. Yeah. And so, go ahead. No, I just wanted to say that I almost forgot.

[01:58:33] That my husband pointed something out and I need to, I need to mention it. So Organa, Bell Organa says, may the force be with you. And I think that's the first time anyone says it in the episode and straight after. In the season, right? Yeah. In the entire two season run. Yeah. And straight after there's a huge nod to Han Solo. Um, when Andor puts a blaster by his side. Oh, good one. Good call. And a cool jacket, right? Yeah. And he's like,

[01:59:02] I'm going to dress like, like in that whole kind of hokey religions and, um, ancient weapons. Yeah. So that was, that was a nice little tip. Hat tip to your husband. Yeah. Saul Guerrera. I think that that is a shot. I think they might've pulled that right out of Rogue One because when they pan away and I don't think they recreate, I think they actually lifted a frame straight out of Rogue One on that. I'd have to go match shots, but I think it's, it's one for one. Yeah. I created it. I like the fact that they've just used the same actors,

[01:59:32] even though it's 10 years later. And when you go and watch Rogue One again, you're like, Oh, everyone looks so much younger, but I just liked that they did that rather than any of the weird kind of CGI stuff that they do. They did a little bit to Stellan Skarsgård for when he was Sergeant Lear. Was it? Okay. But it's, it was light. It was very, very light and it was just a little bit of facial. And very well done again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't get in, I was not in the uncanny valley of that. So then we get Krennic looking at the Death Star before. And then of course,

[02:00:01] when we open in Rogue One, we see the dish being installed and this is just before that. So it's just a big gaping hole. yeah. That just reminds me of when I had to put, my son's got a Death Star and oh my God, it was so difficult to put that dish in. I love that. Just kept falling off all the time. That's hilarious. I actually had to super glue it on. Don't know if it's functional Death Star now.

[02:00:31] Right. Exactly. You needed some Cal-Kite, some deep substrate. Yeah. You needed Cal-Kite. Well, now we're going to mix the Lego movie, right? With whatever's with that, the glue that they were, spoilers for that movie. All right. And I don't mean to be flip when I say this. Meanwhile, on Space Iowa. Yeah. That's a good, that's, that's a good. Cause I also call, what's the other place that's Space Miami? Oh, right. And our, uh, Nyamos. Yeah.

[02:01:01] There you go. Yeah. I think we all have other names for it. Well, not everyone. I'm sure Alicia knows every name, but I think most other people have, have, um, yeah, pseudonyms for all the places. So Luke, who is one of the co-pilots with Alicia and a co-host of the Wolf Shift Dust podcast that Alicia does for Silo and some Dune and some other stuff. And we'll be talking to you. Hopefully you, I think I'm going to get you, Ian and Luke together for a transatlantic, uh, uh, co-pilot debrief mission. Uh, anyway,

[02:01:31] he, he, I think he coined that phrase space Iowa. And I ever said, I heard him say that. You forget that I'm also a listener and not just a copilot. So I was there when he said that and I was like, yeah, like space Miami. So we see B2 playing with a friend and then Bix with her baby. And I'm going to just say, I've got a couple of things to say, but I just wanted to, to set this up. This is a complex, a social, socially complex scene in,

[02:02:00] from a lot of different levels. And for me, and I'll, and I'm going to say a couple of things and I'm going to get out of the way for a minute. Is that it's deeply satisfying in some ways because it gets into this question of hope. And Sarah, AKA I'm going to Lupin, wrote in for who's I'm going to open on the discord. She wrote in for episode six feedback. And she talked about this Tolkien ideas of hope. I'm dear, which is hope based in reality and a still,

[02:02:28] which is hope based in faith or hope based in, um, where you don't have some, you don't have reason to hope, but you have faith. Yeah. So you just hold on versus hope based in reality. Oh, I can see how this is going to resolve. And so this whole part of the signaling for me was hope. So, but then we talk about what is the arc of Bix and how is Bix written and what does it mean?

[02:02:57] And how do we interpret the fact that, you know, that she's there with a seemingly Cassian's child and what is the, the, the meaning of her arc? So I don't know thoughts that you have. Um, I think it's, it's, I'm not sure. Like it's, it's, I can't imagine that place has a lot of like nice memories for her, but it's, if that's where she's safe, that's where she's, where she's ultimately safe. Um,

[02:03:27] it's sad because I think she is expecting and or to come back and we know that's, that's not going to be happening. Um, yeah. Yeah. I'm not really sure about the kind of the hope at the end of that. Well, I'm thinking she's been very dedicated to the cause and that, you know, she wants to win. Right. Yeah. Sorry. What were you going to say? Well, I was going to trying to, uh, I, I can't represent some of the conversations that have been going on on the discord, not only because of the, the, the, the quantity,

[02:03:58] but the, the quality in speaking specifically to, uh, Bix's as a woman, her arc through this story. Hmm. And then that we just end up with her being a mom, uh, you know, with a babe at her hip versus all of the things that she's gone through and her journey, uh, through being tortured and, and her agency and part of the rebellion and part of a Cassian story. And what that says about our ideas about gender and, uh, gender relationships. Yeah.

[02:04:28] I mean, her story is not the main focus. I mean, there are, there are other women who are like, you know, one Mothma or Deidre or even someone like Vel, I think has a stronger arc in how the, and definitely Claire now has a strong arc, even though it kind of began with Bix because she was the one communicating with the rebellion, you know, right near the start. So I can see why people might be somewhat annoyed.

[02:04:53] And also I think Adria Arjona is a phenomenal actress. And I actually think, I think, and, and God, I saw someone on social media and I just didn't comment going, Oh, thank God, we've got Andor because it's nice seeing normal looking people on TV. And I was like, where do you live? Yeah. Cause I was like, you are obviously blind. It's great to have normal looking people, but this show is not that show.

[02:05:19] But point being that sometimes I think when you are socially stunning as, as Adria Arjona is, you can end up getting into roles, which don't fully give you the opportunity to, you know, shine as much because you were like, to be, you're a trained, you're an actor and you're trained with skills and to use your skills rather than just use your physical appearance. Yeah. And, and I think that in the things that I've seen it in that sometimes does happen.

[02:05:48] Sometimes she's extremely good. And sometimes I feel like her ability is better than she's given a chance to express. And even in this show, I do feel like her character, I mean, the thing is that the show is written and they've put her in. So I don't think it's to do with, do you know what? Like she's really had a chance to show us that she's phenomenal.

[02:06:12] There's that one conversation when they're in that safe house on Coruscant and she goes through about four or five different emotions and every single beat is just perfect. You don't go, Oh, why is she acting in four different crazy ways? It's just perfection all the way through. I wish I could go back and figure out which scene that was. Yeah. It's when Cassian has come home from one of his missions and he finds out that Luthen had been there. And they go from embracing lovers. I haven't seen you and you're safe. And I'm,

[02:06:41] I'm so glad I'm home to what do you mean? You know, all the, all the way through to, Hey, I have agency. Oh yeah. And the dude showed up and, and she gets annoyed at him for the fact that he's annoyed and it's just perfect couple stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and yeah, as I think watching it, she probably didn't have the, you know, she had her capacity to act and have a better role. Isn't fully met.

[02:07:10] Like it does feel like in terms of a character, it is slightly weak. Yeah. It's, it's fun when she blows up that building though. So I think if I, I know people have a lot of thoughts and there's a, there's some nuance and some complexity here that, that, um, it's not a single, it's not, it's not a simple thing to just sort of talk at the end of a podcast about. And I really want to invite, uh, anyone of our listeners who has, uh,

[02:07:39] thoughts on her arc and her point of view and the point of view of, uh, how she was written to send us feedback, star Wars at the lorehounds.com. And then we'll put that into the conversation that we have with, uh, John and Alicia and I, cause I know Alicia has thoughts and I know somebody else's art written in at least one email. So. I'm glad they didn't kill her. Cause that's another trope. Like I'm glad she wasn't fridged, um, for, and I'm glad that they didn't do that. And they showed her making a, you know, having agency and leaving. Um,

[02:08:09] but yeah, it's, it's such a complicated thing. Cause when you get into sexual assault, it's like, well, that is a reality, especially when it comes to, you know, powerful structures and war and anything like that. It's, it's, it is such a reality. Um, and, and stress responses in the moment to how you, uh, I, yeah, I, I don't want to get too into this cause we haven't necessarily prepared listeners that we're going to talk about that particular subject. Yeah. Well, we'll leave that in there, but we won't go any further, I think. Uh,

[02:08:39] cause they just want to give people space if they, you know, yeah, absolutely. Uh, because it's, it's, it's powerful. These are powerful. You know, it's evocative. It's very, uh, emotionally evocative and we don't want to diminish things. So anyway, moving, uh, moving away. Uh, I am glad that the show does knowing, I think that we have to have, uh, that counter note because we know where Cassian ends up.

[02:09:09] We, that leavens the storyline a little bit to know that there is something alive and growing out in the world. Right. You know, that there is hope. Yeah. Cause if we just saw Cassian just go off to his doom, uh, you know, whoa, that's heavy. But knowing that there is something else out there that again goes into that, um, um, dear, uh,

[02:09:38] that type of hope where there's hope based in reality. We know that people are going to carry on. Mm. Absolutely. Did you listen to the credit music by chance? I didn't until, uh, someone pointed out to me and then I went, I'm not a huge credits person. Sure. No, not normally. Um, I'm, I'm glad I went to see sinners twice cause everyone was like, Oh, you didn't stay till the second end of credit. And I was like, what do you mean? It's all Marvel's fault. Um, yeah.

[02:10:07] So I went back and listened to it. Yes. Yeah. And so if you stay for the credit. Yeah. And it goes into the, uh, John Williams score. I think it's re, re, um, re performed, but it is a star Wars theme music. So it goes from, it, it slips out of the end or theme and into the star Wars theme. And then I, I heard, I was just sort of sitting there stunned at the end of the episode. And I, I didn't intentionally listen to the ending music. I was just sitting there going, God, what do I feeling? All the fields. And then I was like,

[02:10:37] wait a minute, that's the Imperial March. That's the, that's the Skywalker hero song. And so, yeah, it's the, it's the music from 77. So, uh, very cool little tie in. Right. So we've got two pieces of feedback and, uh, I'm going to, I'm, I'm on a mission to keep us under three hours. We're probably going to end up in two and a half at a final, final cut. But we've got lore master do 71. I have a reputation to uphold on having in-depth conversations. You and Chris Nolan, right?

[02:11:07] Yeah. Ouch. I don't know if that's a, is that a backhanded compliment? Well, you were complaining about people who are having long pieces of art. John, I'm not going to let that go. I was thinking more of, um, Oh, I can't Scorsese and these other guys who are putting out these. I think Scorsese's was just, uh, was it the Irishman who there was, Oh no. Then he did also did the flowers of the killer moon. Yeah. Yeah. Which was, yeah. Um, anyway, let's get into doves. Yes. Email. So, uh,

[02:11:36] lore master do 71 friend of the pod and supporter. I promise this isn't going to be one of my half hour epic feedbacks. Hey, uh, having just finished and or season two, I wanted to share a couple of observations about how brilliantly it connects to rogue one, how it enhances the experience of rewatching the film, but how, but also how I think the show runners, the characters of and or may have melded the mundane world of spies, soldiers, and diplomats with the more cosmic events of the force.

[02:12:05] First, I noticed something intriguing about Cassian's journey. When he was being healed from his blaster wound by the force healer, there was a discussion about him needing to be in the right place and how he had been collecting things along the way. This echoes Luthen's comment in an earlier episode about how Cassian always seems to be in the right place when he's needed and how his interventions significantly progressed the rebellion. Uh, sorry,

[02:12:33] cat is back and is kicking various devices on my desktop. Um, right. So, uh, saw's line to Jyn in rogue one, when the death star blast wave on Jedha is approaching, save the rebellion, save the dream hits so much harder. Now, if Cassian weren't there, perhaps none of this would have happened. Perhaps the dream of the rebellion would have died before it could have taken hold. Question mark.

[02:13:03] In the final episode, just before Cassian boards his ship to the ring of Kephreen, he spots the healer and they exchange a meaningful glance. This moment made me wonder, are the showrunners subtly suggesting that the force is at work here? After nearly 20 years of dark side dominance, perhaps the force is gently guiding individuals like Cassian and Lizzie. Later Jyn Erso to be in the right place at the right time to help restore balance.

[02:13:33] It made me reflect on the kyber crystal Jyn wears. Is it a bit of subtle retcon to just add a bit more of a sly nod to the force? If intentional, I think it's done the right way. One of the biggest strengths of both Andor, the series and rogue one is that it's not lightsaber wielding heroes. It's the grunts getting in the weeds, doing the dirty but necessary work of rebellion.

[02:14:00] So these subtle links married to bail, given Cassian the line, may the force be with you. It's tipping his hat to a key element of the series without distracting from the heart of the series film. So I'm going to break it right there. He's got a couple more paragraphs that he switches topics. What thoughts do you have at this point? I feel like this is a comment as if Doove had been sitting with us right here and having the conversation. Yeah,

[02:14:28] I think if you're a Star Wars fan, you're like, where's the force? So, you know, as in, I wasn't waiting for it. But when you get those things, this is a universe in which the force is real. And there are people who believe in it and there are people who don't. So it was confusing for me when Luthen had that conversation with Andor, because I was like, is he saying that he manipulated it? Or is it because I didn't know what he was getting at when he said you're at the right place at the right time. Do you know why that is type of thing?

[02:14:57] So I didn't know if it was because he was suggesting that he orchestrated him being at the right place at the right time, or if it was a force thing. But I like to think it was because fate or the force fate is a play. So, yeah, it's nice that we both recognized that there. And it's subtle. And I appreciate the subtlety of it, because as we've talked before, this is about non-mytho heroic characters.

[02:15:26] This is about the average everyday characters. And so, so I think they, they added it just enough in there so that it situates us into this world without, because the moment, and I get, Alicia had some very good points she made about why isn't Leia Organa in here. And I get it. And not even a name mention, but if we had seen her face recast or, or deep fake or whatever, it would have unbalanced the whole show.

[02:15:55] The flywheel of the mechanism would be out of balance because that is such a huge character. And I get even just referencing her, like in, in, in making the connections in the world. I have the same point about Jyn Erso. So if we had any more of the force stuff or any of the primary Skywalker saga characters, I think it would have destabilized this storytelling. Hmm. All right. Carrying on with Dove's email, my second observation concerns the mirroring that has been consistent throughout the series.

[02:16:24] The finale is last seen with Bix and what happens to be her and Cassian's child, safe and surrounded by friends, including B2 Emo, initially upset my wife because Cassian will never know about them. But this perfectly echoes Luthen's passionate speech in season one about burning his soul for a sunrise he'll never see. This mirroring becomes complete in Rogue One's final scene when Jyn and Cassian embrace on the beach of Scarif.

[02:16:53] It's a final act of connection between two beings, not so much driven by fear, but by that desire to just be together. As they connect in that moment, the Death Star's blast creates an artificial sunrise in the background. The final one Cassian will see. Okay. I'm going to get all weepy here in a second. I'm going to tamp down the motion so I can read the thing. That, uh, the fact when you see,

[02:17:21] but one that ushers in parentheses, new hope that the rebellion will overcome the empire, that a new day will come when the dreams of our protagonists in the series and in Rogue One, come true, that a freer society will be born out of the ashes of destruction. Of course, we get to see this. We see the events unfold across the original story. Hope does triumph over despair. The rebellion does overthrow the empire,

[02:17:51] even if many of the rebels will have come to know we will never, uh, even, even if many of the rebels we have come to know we'll never see it. My headcanon is that Clea survives the past events, uh, return of the Jedi that she gets to see a new society that Luthan knew he never would. Perhaps have a life with Vel. Phew. Andor hits hard and deep.

[02:18:16] And if Emmys aren't forthcoming and Disney doesn't recognize the gold that it has with the series, we truly don't deserve nice things in the star Wars universe. As always, the lore hounds have nailed it. A massive thanks to all the rebel pilots who joined the squadrons for this coverage. May the force be with you all always. Yeah. That's a lovely message. Thank you. Um, it's interesting actually, because when I saw Rogue One, I wasn't the first time I was like, yeah, it's good. I wasn't crazy about it.

[02:18:45] And obviously now I watched it again a few weeks ago and I was like, this is such a good film. And I think it does add depth knowing the characters involved and everything that they've been through. But I remember thinking, like, I know they've kind of perhaps implied that there's some kind of romantic bond forming or something between Jyn and Andor, but I didn't feel it. And now that we know that, you know,

[02:19:15] that's Andor's history and Bix is out there and she wants to see him and she's kind of waiting for him. It kind of all puts it into perspective. I think. And someone mentioned that on threads and I was like, ouch, that really hurts. Cause it makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I was always of that, like, Oh, is this a, is this the, a romance, a budding romance? What could have been? And obviously now with the big, that changes that,

[02:19:42] but somebody else made the point that these are just two people who found each other and can see each other in each other. And I think that's the connection they have. Yeah. And that thing of, you know, rebellions are built on hope in the beginning and then it gets echoed later in the film. Yeah. All right. Uh, final feedback email, another dear friend of the pod, somebody who's been with us on, I think since the beginning,

[02:20:11] Peter O H lore master subscriber, uh, greetings squadron leaders. Great job covering the show. Still working through all the bonus content and there's more to come. I wanted to write about Luthen and Clea's relationship. I thought it was an interesting and refreshing take on the parent child dynamic. Unlike K2 and Anvil, sorry. As well, as well. There's all kinds of family dynamics all throughout this.

[02:20:39] Anyone with kids will tell you that parenting is trying not to mess up your kids the way your parents messed you up. Meanwhile, you're messing them up in totally new ways. This is a realization that I have come to is like, you can do your best, but it doesn't matter because they're going to, they're, they're their own people and they're going to respond in their own ways. And so, you know, no matter what age, anyway, we're carrying on. One thing that strikes me about the way my generation, Gen X, uh, I too am that. And as are you,

[02:21:09] uh, was raised is the idea that children must be seen and not heard. Children must obey their parents. And the parent is always right. Even when they're wrong. Now that I'm raising kids and myself, I do my best to not treat them that way. Kids should have some agency. Kids are worthy of an apology. Kids are allowed to feel the way they feel, even if it's inconvenient for the parent. And watching Luthen for all his gruffness and sometimes churlishness,

[02:21:39] I feel like he provides all those things for young Clea. He parents her with respect. When he needs to make an executive decision for both of them, he will do that because he's older and wiser, but he never treats her as anything other than an equal. Clea grows up to be a capable, confident, and well-adjusted. I'm sorry. Let me read. Uh, Clea grows up to be capable, confident, and well-adjusted,

[02:22:08] not to mention a formidable warrior for the cause because Luthen gave her love and treated her like a human being. Contrast that with the Karn family, Cyril's life was ruined from the start. I could go on all day about this and a million other aspects of the show. I so thoroughly enjoyed it. It wasn't perfect, but it was close enough. Thanks again for stellar coverage between the pods and the discord. Being part of the community was so rewarding.

[02:22:37] I feel like I have friends everywhere. Well played, Peter. Unfortunately, I think there are some dark days ahead of us and communities such as this one. Give me hope. The tangible kind of hope. Best regards, Peter. Oh, H. As a fellow parent, what are your thoughts on Peter's? Um, so I was, I was really lucky in, in, I suppose a lot of ways. Like I was, so I, I've diagnosed with ADHD. My mother used to call me, you know, an absent-minded professor, but she was,

[02:23:07] my grandmother pulled her aside once and said, look, do you want to have a good relationship with your child? Or do you want to be right? And she, and she took that. that was the, that was seriously. I was quite, yeah. And I was quite young when that happened. So unlike a lot of ADHD children, I, I didn't, haven't grown up with that kind of, that kind of parenting. And so, I mean, my mother's, I'm the youngest of three by a significant amount. My mother was born 42, I think.

[02:23:34] So much older parent compared to other people I know. So I didn't really have that. I wasn't, this is a child. I was allowed to be loud. I, I was allowed to have opinions and, and, and by the third, I think parents are usually worn down. It's, I've got the privilege of the third child that everyone likes. And, you know, it's kind of cute to everyone else and, and allowed to run a bit wild. So I didn't have those experiences. Um, I think with my own children, it's such, I mean, it's such a hard balance, isn't it?

[02:24:02] Because you don't want them to just sit around, just doom scrolling for the rest of their lives. You want them to go out and do, or have interest. And it's just difficult, but, um, yeah, apologizing to your kids and treating them with respect. That should be just basic. I think something that I, I don't know where I picked this up, but, um, something that occurred to me through whatever variety as, as I was becoming a, you know, learning to, to become a parent.

[02:24:32] Obviously there's all, all of those reactions that you have that, that you inherited because we're pat, you know, we, we pattern, right? You know, that's how we learn is by patterning and play and observation. And so all these things that you didn't know that you had suddenly start to, to come out. And we're working with our, our daughter on some stuff and, and I'm seeing my reactions to things and going, Oh, wait a minute. That that's just a, I didn't choose to do that. That's just what I, it's a script that I'm following. And so,

[02:25:02] so actually having a car, I had a conversation this morning and I was like, I'm notice I asked her, like, can you notice the fact that I'm actually being calm with you about the fact that I don't want you to be late to school? Yeah. I got you, I mean, you're saying this, I tried to make out it was easy. Oh my God. My temper, especially to do with time. Yeah. I cannot handle like time is one of my huge trigger points. Like, yeah. So well done. Well done. But that's a, that's a,

[02:25:31] that's an evolution of practice and being called out and have, and being spoken to by my partner and my, my fellow parents and mother and my wife, you know, the person who is my wife. And, and seeing the reactions of, of my daughter as well. And I think what, what, when I read Peter's email, when it first came in, you know, I was thinking about this, that one of the things that I've tried not to do, you know, you, you, you have the things that you're working on,

[02:26:01] but fundamentally something that I tried to decide early on was, I'm not going to infantilize my child. I'm going to meet my child where she is at developmentally and give her as much agency and room to grow in those places. I still have to make the executive decisions. I still got to make sure that you're getting to school on time. Um, but I'm not going to treat you below your eight. I'm not going to infantilize you. And I think that this idea that Peter's bringing,

[02:26:31] which is you have agency. I respect you as, as another being. My job is to help you get to a certain point and in your life's trajectory. And you can explain that to them. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's, that's what Peter's talking about is that I'm going to, I'm explaining this to you because this is my job. So that I, that I know that you're going to have a successful life or, you know, that you're going to be able to take the wheel of your own life. Yeah. And I think, because of my nature, right? I let my kids know really early on that.

[02:27:00] I have no idea what I'm doing. And so, right. The facade, right. We can take the facade away. I will, I will live for you. I will die for you. I will suffer for you. I will protect you at all costs, but I have no clue if I'm doing this right. You know, like that, that's okay. It gives them so much more point of view on the world. To be able to understand that we're beings that are constantly growing and evolving rather than being these monolithic things that are just sort of, this is the way we are. And therefore, no,

[02:27:30] we can change. We can learn. We can adapt. We can grow. We can be resilient. Yeah. Yeah. But sorry, Peter, that you had one of those upbringings that sounds like it sucks. He, yeah. Uh, uh, I'm glad he's part of our community though. He's been. And also like learning. I remember having a friend a long time. So I also wasn't hit at all growing up, which apparently according to a lot of other people of Pakistani origin means that I'm not a Pakistani origin. Everyone likes to hit their children.

[02:28:00] Sorry. I there for people who don't like that stereotype, but it's a joke amongst friends. Um, and so I've never hit my children and I've seen people who have been brought up being smacks or, you know, however that discipline works. It's so much harder for them to not do it because as you said, it's those old paths. That's how you learn to parent by being parented. Um, whereas I, I would never think to do something like that because it would just be so randomly out of nowhere. Come for the star Wars.

[02:28:29] Stay for the parenting advice. right. Well, let's wrap this up. Uh, quick shout out to our, uh, discord server boosters, Aaron K. Taylor, the thriller, dork of the ninjas, do 71, Athena, Ajalea, Tina, the stew, Nancy M ghost of perdition and radioactive Richard to our top tier subscribers. Samarshan, Michael G, Michelle E, Brian P, SC, Peter O H of the very name, Adam S, Nancy M, do 71, Brian, 80, 63,

[02:28:59] Frederick H, Sarah L, Garrett C, Matthew M, Sarah M, Andra B, Kwong, you dead. I, Jedi, Bob, Nathan T, Alex V, sub zero, Aaron K, Dally V, mothership 61, Narls, Kathy W. Lusdew, Jeffrey B, Elisa, you, Neil F, Ben B, Scott F, Stephen N, Julia F, Kali S, Ilmariel, I think I've been pronouncing it wrong. I apologize. Forward slash Tim and lost, but never forgotten, Adrian.

[02:29:29] Thank you all for being our cornerstone of our subscriber base. Thank you. If you listen, no matter whether you're a subscriber or not, we're just glad you're here. Join us on the discord for ongoing conversations. There is more indoor coverage on the way. I'm rushing us out the door because I'm supposed to be somewhere else physically in a, in a few minutes. Aisha. It has been, I am so glad that we have been able to connect across time and space.

[02:29:58] I love and adore your podcast. And I am so glad that we get to have you as part of the community. And I really appreciate you anchoring coming in on the last episode of a huge season like this could have probably been very intimidating. And I'm so glad you were here with me on this one. So I think you may thank you so much for like, I don't like compliments, but I'm going to say thank you. Cause that's what you're supposed to say rather than hiding and kind of running away. But thank you so much for having me on. And also having me on the last one,

[02:30:27] because one scheduling means I had a good long time to fit everything in. And secondly, I'm terrible with spoilers. So I would have been a mess. I would have been a mess if I was anywhere earlier. I'd be like, Oh, that hasn't happened yet. So yeah. Thank you. Well, maybe it was the force that guided us all to this place. As Luther told me once to my face. And I have been, I have been sharing the law hands coverage of this and also of sinners. Oh,

[02:30:55] what a great conversation guys go and watch the film and listen to Alicia and the gang talk about it. And go check out every single sci-fi film ever podcast. May the force be with us all. The Lord hounds podcast is produced and published by the Lord hounds. You can send questions and feedback to star Wars at the Lord hounds.com and get ad free access to all Lord hounds podcasts at Patreon or supercast connect with us on blue sky links for everything in the episode show notes. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of,

[02:31:24] or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening.