BONUS: Marilyn's New England Moot

[00:00:18] Hello and welcome to The Lorehounds, your guides to unexpected extras. I'm John.

[00:00:23] And I'm Marilyn. And this is the first ever Lorehounds Lagnap, a small gift to a customer

[00:00:28] by a merchant at the time of purchase. A bonus, an extra gift.

[00:00:32] And since you've all given us the gift of your listening time, this one's for everyone.

[00:00:38] Today we're offering a recording of a talk that I gave as part of Signum University's

[00:00:42] New England Moot on October 19th, 2024. The talk is entitled,

[00:00:47] The Double-Edged Chisel, Tolkien and the Perilous Knowledge of Creativity.

[00:00:53] Marilyn, that was an absolutely fantastic lecture, paper, however you want to call it,

[00:00:58] presentation. I had the privilege of witnessing it. And we managed to get a recording of it

[00:01:05] down out of my computer. So we are going to play the full thing right after we're done

[00:01:10] talking here. And I'm excited to re-listen to it.

[00:01:14] Well, thanks, John. That's really kind. I'm so glad you were able to

[00:01:17] experience it. And that's lovely feedback. Just for people who don't know what is a moot,

[00:01:23] if you have read Lord of the Rings, you will probably remember the Ent moot. Moot is simply

[00:01:28] an Anglo-Saxon word.

[00:01:29] Is that where this is coming from?

[00:01:30] Oh, yeah.

[00:01:31] I never put that together.

[00:01:34] The whole time.

[00:01:36] The things you learn when you get into podcasting.

[00:01:39] Yeah, it comes from an Anglo-Saxon term that just basically means meeting or gathering. And so,

[00:01:46] oxen moot was probably one of the earliest, if not the one to get it all rolling. This is the product of

[00:01:53] the Tolkien Society in England, and they started having an annual oxen moot, or gathering in Oxford,

[00:02:00] oxen being the medieval name for Oxford. And so now everybody has moots all the time. But this

[00:02:07] particular one, as I said, was the New England moot, Signum University. Signum has just sows the

[00:02:14] seeds of moots all over the country, and actually in other countries as well. They had an Oz moot.

[00:02:19] And I think they did one in Austria, but somewhere in Europe, I know they did one too.

[00:02:24] There's plenty of moots. If you go to the Signum website, I guess I should plug

[00:02:27] the Signum website in the show notes as well.

[00:02:30] Yes, do that, John.

[00:02:31] And you can click on their website. They have a list of moots that they do.

[00:02:36] So you can find one local to you, hopefully, and be able to check out one of these next time they do

[00:02:41] one.

[00:02:42] And they're hybrids. So if you're not nearby, but you are interested in the topic, you can still

[00:02:47] zoom in and...

[00:02:48] That's what I did.

[00:02:50] ...and exactly what you did.

[00:02:52] So, this moot's theme was Wicked Wisdom and Forbidden Knowledge, which produced papers on

[00:02:58] things like Thelema. My favorite one, So You Want to Be a Vala, which I think, I wish you had been

[00:03:06] there, John, because it really would have answered some of your case against Manoy, I think.

[00:03:13] Somebody was talking about the Dark Crystal and Tolkien and Gnosticism, so as you can see, it was quite a

[00:03:20] wide range of papers. So, let's hear the talk. We hope you enjoy it. And please feel free to write

[00:03:26] in if you have any feedback. Just tap onto the Discord and we'll converse away. That's much easier,

[00:03:33] actually, than the email.

[00:03:34] Keep it nice and casual.

[00:03:36] Yeah. So, here is The Double-Edged Chisel, Tolkien and the Perilous Knowledge of Creativity.

[00:04:01] Well, Elrond tells us that going last is the position of honor, so I don't know if that's

[00:04:07] what Corey had in mind or whoever it was that set up the schedule, but thank you for that.

[00:04:12] It's also fun to go last because you hear a lot of what you're going to say said in other ways by other

[00:04:18] people. So, I'm hoping that you will hear the connections between what I have to say today

[00:04:24] and what we've already heard. So, I'm calling my talk The Double-Edged Chisel, The Perilous Knowledge

[00:04:30] of Creativity. And I would like to thank you all for still being here, and I would like to thank all

[00:04:35] the people on Zoom for still being here.

[00:04:40] Celebrimbor, Narvi, and pretty much every dwarf you've ever heard about.

[00:04:45] Sauron, Feanor, Aldarion, Aule, Sauron, Morgoth.

[00:04:52] At some point in their lives, and perhaps for all of their lives, they were crafters, makers,

[00:04:58] creators. Creatures of a creator god need to do their own sub-creation. This was one of Tolkien's

[00:05:06] major themes and could be considered as one side of the chisel in the title of this talk.

[00:05:13] All the names that I mentioned above are names of famous creators. Yes, even Morgoth,

[00:05:18] in his early origins, created new melodies. Unfortunately, he was not content with that

[00:05:24] creation. He wanted to make things of his own, things that no one had ever thought of before,

[00:05:29] and he wanted to rule over them, to possess them utterly, along with everyone else's creations.

[00:05:36] In essence, he wanted to be god, but that position had already been filled.

[00:05:41] Eventually, he lost his creativity in a painfully long fit of destructive nihilism,

[00:05:46] and was cast into the void. Unfortunately, he left a lot of his creativity behind him.

[00:05:53] What about those other creators? Aule was the maker, the bala of making, smithing, creating.

[00:06:00] Notice, smith, keep that in mind. Put a pin in that, as they say.

[00:06:05] And he came within a hair's breadth of crossing a line, the same line that Morgoth crossed.

[00:06:11] It was only Aule's humility that allowed him to step back from that line, even to the extent of

[00:06:17] offering up his own creations for Eru to destroy. As a result, Eru blessed the work and gave it the

[00:06:24] secret fire, thus creating an entire people who were themselves the creatures of a creator archangel,

[00:06:31] if you will. Born to create. And Naurvi the dwarf was a pretty successful exemplar of that, so far as we know.

[00:06:39] Even allowing his love of creation to do what none of his people had done before. Create a deep

[00:06:45] friendship with an elven creator, Celebrimbor, which resulted in a monument to that friendship which

[00:06:51] lasted thousands of years after both of them were gone. Say friend and enter. Celebrimbor, alas,

[00:07:00] fell into a different problem. Perhaps he had in him too much of his grandfather Feanor, also named above,

[00:07:08] who dared to put crystalline limits upon sacred light that was the creation of others,

[00:07:15] imprisoning it even as he unknowingly preserved it after its source was destroyed.

[00:07:20] Celebrimbor, too, thought in terms of preservation of nature, of substances that he himself had not made.

[00:07:26] He wanted to make artifacts that would preserve mortal things that were not meant to last forever.

[00:07:33] And in the end, that desire caused an enormous amount of trouble. Yet it also brought about a grace

[00:07:40] that he and others needed in the battles with yet another creator who had dedicated himself to Aulé,

[00:07:46] at one point, Sauron himself. Sauron wanted to create a world order in which everyone would obey him.

[00:07:54] Does this sound like a familiar desire for a position that was already filled?

[00:07:59] Sauron also, for a time, was a follower of Aulé. Just like a certain Maia who eventually wanted to be

[00:08:07] Sauron's replacement, one Sauron. After a while, it starts to make you suspicious about this whole

[00:08:12] creativity thing, does it not? And Aldarion? Well, Aldarion wanted to create ships that could sail

[00:08:19] far across the sundering seas. He wanted to build harbors that could safely keep those ships on the

[00:08:25] hither shores of Middle-earth. Eventually, he wanted to create armadas of ships because his friends

[00:08:31] Gil-galad and Círdan needed the help of Aldarion's people to prevent Sauron from enacting his so-called

[00:08:36] creative plan to rule of Middle-earth. Once again, though, Aldarion ignored the fact that there were

[00:08:43] limits to creativity. In this case, the amount of timber available without clear-cutting and the

[00:08:49] ability of his harbors to withstand the power of the sea to destroy much of what he created.

[00:08:54] This produced new problems, notably a fierce enmity from the indigenous folks of the region west of

[00:09:01] the White Mountains, who didn't think much of resource colonization. In the Third Age, they were

[00:09:07] known as Dunlundings. It's enough to give creativity a bad name. So why did Tolkien consider creativity the

[00:09:15] right of a sub-creative creatures? And why did so many of his creators stumble, fall, and even turn into

[00:09:22] the worst enemies of his stories? What is the perilous knowledge inherent in creativity?

[00:09:30] Tolkien gave us a clue fairly early on in his poem Mythopoeia, written for C.S. Lewis sometime in the

[00:09:36] 1930s after their famous conversation on Addison's walk in Oxford. It's Tolkien's own manifesto for the

[00:09:44] truth of, the need for, and the justification of myth and human creativity. He wrote in part, very much in

[00:09:52] part, quote, the heart of man is not compound of lies, but draws some wisdom from the only wise and

[00:10:01] still recalls him. Though now long estranged, man is not wholly lost nor wholly changed. Disgraced he may be,

[00:10:11] yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he own. Man, sub-creator, the refracted light

[00:10:20] through whom is splintered from a single white to many hues and endlessly combined in living shapes

[00:10:27] that move from mind. Though all the crannies of the world we filled with elves and goblins, though we

[00:10:35] dared to build gods and their houses out of dark and light and sowed the seeds of dragons, t'was our right,

[00:10:43] used or misused. The right has not decayed. We make still by the law in which we're made. Tolkien maintains

[00:10:53] here that as children of a creator god, we have the right to create, regardless of the quality of our

[00:11:00] creations. It is a need as simple and as consistent as hunger and thirst. The entire poem, which goes on

[00:11:07] with many more stanzas that I've given you here, is a justification for human imagination and creativity.

[00:11:14] John Rose Grant in his book Tolkien Enchantment and Loss writes,

[00:11:18] when Tolkien writes about something fantastical, he is not in conflict with God, but is honoring God,

[00:11:25] not challenging God, but showing his connection to his father by imitating him. And yet,

[00:11:37] almost overlooked, Tolkien slips in one very important fact. This right may be used or misused.

[00:11:45] He tells us that we dare when we build gods and their houses, or so the cedar dragons. The knowledge

[00:11:52] of creativity is perilous because of the deadly fruits it may produce. Hubris, possessiveness, isolation,

[00:11:59] and the will to dominate are the qualities which manifest in the creators who go astray in Tolkien's

[00:12:05] legendarium. Melkor is the most obvious example. He goes alone into the void, seeking the flame

[00:12:12] imperishable, isolation, names all of Ea to himself, possessiveness, declares himself to be its only ruler,

[00:12:21] hubris, and seeks to impose his will, domination, on every possible element, including the wills of other

[00:12:28] created being. Eventually, the impulse of creation has all but disappeared from him, and he is interested

[00:12:35] only in domination and destruction. Sauron, as Morgoth's lieutenant, might seem to be a lesser evil,

[00:12:42] insofar as he wishes to impose order on creation, but it is his own order which will eradicate the free

[00:12:49] will of all others, hubris and domination, along with his claim to be lord of all things, possessiveness.

[00:12:57] Sauron, in essence, remakes himself in the image of Sauron, rather than retain the memory of Aure,

[00:13:03] the supreme example of a creator with the humility to submit his work to the judgment of Eru.

[00:13:10] Because all of them are beings of great power, the harm that their creativity does is commensurate with that power.

[00:13:16] Morgoth infuses so much of his evil into Middle-earth that Tolkien conceived the notion of Arda as Morgoth's ring,

[00:13:23] infused with Morgoth's evil in the same way that Sauron poured all of his will to dominate

[00:13:28] into the One Ring to rule them all. Sauron turns his craft to remodeling, quote-unquote,

[00:13:35] orcs to tolerate sunlight and obey only himself. The idea that he could then use them to overpower Sauron

[00:13:41] and take his place was certainly a delusionary form of hubris. But even the lesser beings produced

[00:13:49] profoundly destructive consequences from their own creativity. Theanor's hubris and possessiveness led

[00:13:55] to a continental war and eventual destruction of half of it, or maybe only a third, I don't know,

[00:14:00] give or take. Not to mention the deaths of countless elves, humans, and other creatures.

[00:14:07] Celebrimbor's desire for domination was, one might say, much gentler in that he hoped to preserve the

[00:14:13] works of the Eldar and the nature, wisdom, and places that they loved on Middle-earth. Yet even the

[00:14:19] three elven rings were products of domination because they were made to overrule the natural order of

[00:14:26] mortal things out of the desire to preserve those things for their own pleasure, and possibly even to

[00:14:32] recreate Valinor on Earth. Another example of hubris. Albarion neglected his family, his realm,

[00:14:40] and his role as the king's heir to follow his passion for the sea, which may not have been entirely of

[00:14:45] his own creation. You know, Uinen may have had a hand in that. But the hubris with which he felled trees,

[00:14:53] first in Numenor and then throughout the coastal territories of Middle-earth, sowed the seeds for

[00:14:58] conflicts that would last for thousands of years rather than successfully preventing the domination of Sauron.

[00:15:05] Unfortunately, we don't really know enough about Nauri or most of the dwarves to be able to truly

[00:15:09] examine their creativity and its positive or negative effects. On the whole, I would say that Nauri pursued

[00:15:16] his craft with humility, but even more importantly with community in the form of his partnership with

[00:15:22] Celebrimbor, avoiding the dangers of solitude. Aule created the dwarves alone, which meant that they

[00:15:29] were almost invariably at odds with the elves and would always have need of wood. Morgoth went alone

[00:15:35] too often into the void to ever be able to be harmonious with his fellows in the song. Theonor also

[00:15:41] went off by himself to the edges of Valinor, ever seeking new knowledge. Sauron isolated himself in

[00:15:48] Orthank, while by contrast, Gandalf was a wanderer among all the folk of Middle-earth with no set

[00:15:54] dwelling place. And Celebrimbor was at the center of this mythic partnership of the Gwaiði Mirdaim

[00:16:00] and extended that circle out to Nauri and the dwarves of Khazad-dûm, which benefited both their people.

[00:16:07] Hubris, possessiveness, domination, and isolation. These, if you will, are the perilous aspects of

[00:16:14] creative knowledge. Tolkien certainly seeded examples of this throughout his legendarium.

[00:16:20] But what is his own creativity? How did he fare in his own estimation, in using and not misusing,

[00:16:28] this birthright gift from his own creator? Tolkien answers that question for us in both his fiction

[00:16:35] and his letters. The short story Leaf by Niggle shows a small man with a big idea, a tree of tails,

[00:16:42] if you will. At first glance, you might not think that Niggle was in danger of hubris.

[00:16:47] He is described as a little man and a niggler, someone who never pretended that his work was more

[00:16:54] important than his responsibilities to his neighbors, his community. Yet at one point he considers his

[00:17:00] picture to be, quote, the only really beautiful picture in the world, close quote, and he himself

[00:17:07] possibly deserving of a public pension so that he can finish it. He definitely shows signs of isolation

[00:17:13] regarding nearly all his neighbors as bothers and interruptions to his true work. Ironically,

[00:17:19] at the workhouse, he is even further isolated in order that he can learn satisfaction rather than

[00:17:26] pleasure. Not to mention better use of his time. Oh dear, that has implications for me. But clearly it does some good.

[00:17:35] When asked to provide an explanation of himself to the two voices, Niggle instead inquires after

[00:17:41] Parrish, explaining that he really had been a good neighbor to Niggle and even gave him potatoes cheaply.

[00:17:47] When he arrives at the foot of his tree, Bully realized at last, I can't help but tear up at this.

[00:17:53] And yet still in need of more work, Niggle realizes that the finest examples of his work had been

[00:17:59] produced in collaboration with his neighbor Parrish. Quote, of course, he said, what I need is Parrish.

[00:18:07] There are lots of things about earth, plants and trees that he knows and I don't.

[00:18:11] This place cannot be left just as my private park. I need help and advice. I ought to have gotten it

[00:18:18] sooner. And almost immediately after he does this, after this he does get it. Hubris has given way to

[00:18:26] humility. Tolkien wrote this story while in the midst of his struggle to bring the Lord of the Rings to

[00:18:32] fruition. It was, he wrote in a later letter, the only time he remembered writing something down

[00:18:38] almost at a single go and making very few revisions. Think about that for a minute, will you?

[00:18:47] It served in some respects as a removal of the block to his creativity.

[00:18:52] Perhaps it was also a touchstone for him, reminding him of the dangers inherent in his creative life

[00:18:57] and of the ways to avoid them. Though it is also true that in March 1945, he wrote to his publisher

[00:19:04] Stanley Unwin about the possibility of publishing Niggle in a collection of stories. It had already been

[00:19:09] published alone in the Dublin Magazine in January of that year. And he included the following in that

[00:19:15] letter, quote, like Niggle, I want a public pension and am equally unlikely to get one, close quote.

[00:19:22] And in letter in 1954, he refers to Leaf by Niggle as a purgatorial story when he wrote to Peter Hastings.

[00:19:32] Once Lord of the Rings was published and readers were writing and talking with probing questions about

[00:19:37] the moral implications of the created world and by extension of creating a world, Tolkien had some

[00:19:43] interesting things to say about the ambiguity of creativity. When asked if there was a meaning to

[00:19:50] Gollum's role in the climax of the story, Tolkien responded, quote, into the ultimate judgment upon Gollum,

[00:19:57] I would not care to inquire. This would be to investigate Godes Privite, as the Medievals said. Apologies for

[00:20:05] those of you who know Middle English. We who are all in the same boat must not usurp the judge.

[00:20:11] End of quote. Tolkien may have given R. L'Uvatar his own name in this secondary world, but it seems pretty

[00:20:19] clear that in his own mind, this was more or less the same personage as the god he worshipped,

[00:20:24] and he would not trespass upon that being's behavior or choices.

[00:20:29] Most telling of all is Tolkien's response to Peter Hastings in the lengthy letter 153.

[00:20:35] In September 1954, Hastings wrote, inquiring on many things in the realm of metaphysics and the

[00:20:40] nature of evil. In part, Tolkien's response included the following, quote, are there any,

[00:20:47] subquote, bounds to a writer's job, subquote, except those imposed by his own finiteness?

[00:20:55] No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But of course, humility and an awareness of

[00:21:02] peril is required. A writer may be basically benevolent according to his lights, as I hope I am,

[00:21:09] and yet not be beneficent, owing to error and stupidity. Great harm can be done, of course,

[00:21:18] by this potent form of myth, especially willfully. The right to freedom of the subcreator is no

[00:21:25] guarantee among fallen men that it will not be used as wickedly as is free will. I am comforted

[00:21:31] by the fact that some, more pious and learned than I, have found nothing harmful in this tale,

[00:21:37] or its feelings as a myth. End of quote. And it's interesting to note that at the end of this

[00:21:45] letter Tolkien wrote, quote, not sent, it seemed to be taking myself too importantly. In 1967, Tolkien

[00:21:57] wrote what turned out to be his final piece of published fiction, Smith of Witten Major. It is a

[00:22:04] story looking back on the life of a creator, this case, yet another Smith, remember what I said,

[00:22:09] follow the Smiths, who as a young child received the gift of a star, which gave him the ability to

[00:22:16] cross the threshold between the human world and the world of fairies. During his journeys,

[00:22:21] Smith believed that the star gave him permission to go where he wished and do what he wanted,

[00:22:25] because it would protect him. This hubris led him into some of the dangerous places of fairy,

[00:22:30] fairy, to other places where he actually does harm, and ultimately into a confrontation with his own

[00:22:36] possessiveness. When he is told by the king of fairy that it is time for him to give up the star

[00:22:42] so that another could take it on and preserve the connection between the two overlapping worlds.

[00:22:49] Smith feels the loss keenly, but is offered the consolation of community by his son who tells him,

[00:22:55] quote, do you know, Master Smith? There is much you can teach me yet if you have the time,

[00:23:01] and I do not mean only the working of iron. Close quote. In these words, I hear the voice of

[00:23:08] son Christopher. Yet still, Tolkien's doubts continued. In a letter from 1971, Tolkien told a story of an

[00:23:17] encounter from a few years before with a reader who thought he had found inspiration for Middle Earth in

[00:23:23] various pieces of art. Tolkien told him that he had never seen the artworks before and then wrote,

[00:23:31] quote, I became aware that he was looking fixedly at me. Suddenly, he said, of course you don't

[00:23:37] suppose, do you, that you wrote all that book yourself? Close quote. Tolkien says, pure Gandalf.

[00:23:46] I was too well acquainted with Gandalf to expose myself rashly or to ask what he meant. I think I said,

[00:23:53] quote, no, I don't suppose so any longer. Close quote. I have never since been able to suppose so.

[00:24:00] An alarming conclusion for an old philologist to draw concerning his private amusement. But not one that

[00:24:06] should puff anyone up who considers the imperfection of chosen instruments, and indeed what sometimes seems

[00:24:13] their lamentable unfitness for the purpose. I'm going to stick in here. He's probably thinking about

[00:24:18] just about every Hebrew prophet that you've ever heard of. He did actually translate the book of

[00:24:25] Jonah, so he was very familiar with that for the Jerusalem Bible. I can only answer, he goes on,

[00:24:35] of his own sanity no man can securely judge. If sanctity inhabits his work or as a pervading light

[00:24:42] illumines it, then it does not come from him, but through him. And neither of you would perceive it

[00:24:50] in these terms unless it was with you also. So the light has to come through the author,

[00:24:55] it has to arise from the work, and it has to be present in the reader. Otherwise, you would see

[00:25:01] and feel nothing. Or, if some other spirit were present, you would be filled with contempt, nausea,

[00:25:08] hatred. Then you sat at the elf country, gah! Lembas, dust and ashes, we don't eat that!

[00:25:16] Yes, that was in the letter. Maybe not the accent, but the letter.

[00:25:22] Of course, the Lord of the Rings does not belong to me. It has been brought forth and must now go

[00:25:28] its appointed way in the world, though naturally I take a deep interest in its fortunes as a parent

[00:25:33] would a child. I am comforted to know that it has good friends to defend it against the malice of its

[00:25:39] enemy. But towards the end of his life, it might well be that one of the potentially biggest enemies

[00:25:45] was Tolkien himself. According to Rose Grant, he tried to bring the Silmarillion into a state

[00:25:51] that was publishable, but that instead most of the final work on it was to try to make it more

[00:25:56] consonant with Christianity. Galadriel's development to make her more like the Virgin Mary,

[00:26:02] the tale of the Afrebef, in which a woman named Andrith hints at a redeemer to come so that humans

[00:26:08] would not die utterly. Formerly, Tolkien had said that direct representation of religion was fatal to

[00:26:15] a story, his own word, and especially to a fairy story. He made a painful attempt to revise the

[00:26:23] Harvard away from its fairy tale essence and more towards the epic nature of Lord of the Rings.

[00:26:28] Fortunately, some of his friends gently talked him out of it. He even contemplated the revision of a

[00:26:33] much-loved temporary flat earth cosmology who was an always existing round earth orbiting the sun

[00:26:40] with the moon orbiting the earth, thinking that the imagined cosmology could no longer be believable.

[00:26:46] Though he did keep the two trees. To Rose Grant, quote,

[00:26:50] It is as though he is standing ashamed before an inner board of examiners who demand the realistic choice.

[00:26:56] Close quote.

[00:26:59] Ashamed at the hubris of his own creativity, which he had considered a right from God,

[00:27:04] the imitation of a much-loved father by an obedient son.

[00:27:09] In Morgas Ring, Tolkien wrote, quote,

[00:27:12] The Valar must be supposed to know the truth about the structure of Ea and not the mythological guesses of men,

[00:27:20] and to have communicated this to the elves.

[00:27:23] Indeed, the very concept of earth as Morgas Ring, a container of evil will, was in dire contrast to the

[00:27:31] Catholic doctrine of a good earth made by a loving creator.

[00:27:37] Rose Grant suggests that this is Tolkien reigning in his own hubris by constraining this very creativity.

[00:27:43] Tolkien's son Christopher put it this way, quote,

[00:27:47] It seemed to me that he was devising from within it a fearful weapon against his own creation.

[00:27:54] Close quote.

[00:27:57] Having maintained for all of his life the right of humans to enchantment and imagination and creativity,

[00:28:02] why was Tolkien now so fearful of it?

[00:28:06] Perhaps it was the presentiments of a man who knew he was aging, that his mind was slowing down,

[00:28:12] and who, as he stoutly believed, was soon to face his own maker.

[00:28:17] The frustration of finding himself unable to bring the Sombruñin, truly his life's work, to completion,

[00:28:23] must have added to his anxiety and his distress.

[00:28:27] Like Aule, like Nigel, he would have to see his work, completed or otherwise,

[00:28:32] pass before his creator and to see it judged.

[00:28:37] Surely he hoped for a compassionate God to receive it.

[00:28:42] Yet, having lived the life of a creator, who knew better than Tolkien the perils, the risks, the dangers of the knowledge of creativity?

[00:28:52] Given the beauty and the wonder of his writings, and the joy they had brought to so many,

[00:28:56] people, including, I think, everyone in this room, and on Zoom.

[00:29:00] I cannot but think that Erud did approve, and gave to Tolkien the chance to perfect them.

[00:29:07] I only wish we could see the results for ourselves.

[00:29:11] Marilyn, again, what a fantastic talk.

[00:29:13] I'm glad that I definitely just actually listened to this, and we're not just recording this after the intro.

[00:29:22] I'll never, I'll, you know, my lips are sealed.

[00:29:25] I'll get to listen to it when I edit.

[00:29:26] Okay.

[00:29:27] Which will be great.

[00:29:28] That'll be great.

[00:29:29] I can listen to it anytime, because now it's going to be on the Lorehounds feed forever.

[00:29:33] There you go.

[00:29:34] And anyone can listen to it at any time.

[00:29:36] And I'll be listening to it for the first time, so.

[00:29:38] Oh, fair enough.

[00:29:39] That'll be, that'll be great.

[00:29:41] And listeners, I hope you enjoyed it.

[00:29:43] And maybe start thinking about moots, because who knows?

[00:29:46] We might even do one for ourselves someday.

[00:29:50] Yeah.

[00:29:50] A good old Loreboot.

[00:29:52] So yeah, but definitely check the show notes for all the links to everybody, the feeds, the affiliates,

[00:29:58] and of course our Discord server, where you can discuss this with Marilyn directly.

[00:30:02] You can also find in the show notes Marilyn's scholarly page, where you can find her writings

[00:30:07] and any other papers.

[00:30:09] And we'll also link to Signum University, so you can check out other regional moots.

[00:30:14] Yeah.

[00:30:14] All right.

[00:30:15] Thanks, everyone.

[00:30:15] Bye-bye.

[00:30:16] The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds.

[00:30:20] You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact.

[00:30:26] Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds.

[00:30:31] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any

[00:30:35] employers or other entities.

[00:30:37] Thanks for listening.

[00:30:39] Bye-bye.

[00:30:39] Bye-bye.

[00:30:39] Bye-bye.

[00:30:39] Bye-bye.