CROSSPOST: Never Mind The Music - Enjoy The Silence

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, David here. A while back we were contacted by Mark and Nicole who were looking for advice for what to do with a podcast series that they had recorded. We listened to their samples that they sent us and we instantly knew that we had to invite them into our extended community.

[00:00:20] One of the things that we feel is different about the type of coverage that we do is that we like to lift up and look beneath the surface of topics and themes that we encounter in the shows and the movies and books that we cover.

[00:00:34] And that's exactly what Mark and Nicole do on every episode of Never Mind The Music.

[00:00:42] Take for example the episode that I'm recording this intro for where Mark and Nicole talk about the 1990 Depeche Mode hit, Enjoy The Silence.

[00:00:53] One of the things I really enjoy about Never Mind The Music is that I don't have to be a fan of the genre or the artist to enjoy one of their episodes.

[00:01:01] Because there's always so much insight and conceptual exploration embedded into every episode.

[00:01:07] But then they cover a song that has particular meaning for me and in this case, Enjoy The Silence is a marker for a specific time in my life where I had lots going on.

[00:01:19] And when I hear the song, of course, I immediately fall into a nostalgia hole.

[00:01:24] This is dance club music of that era for my life.

[00:01:29] And I'm not a big dancer, but spent a lot of time at the clubs.

[00:01:32] But when I hear this song or most of the songs that are on this album, I just want to move my body.

[00:01:38] But here's the great thing about what Mark and Nicole do.

[00:01:41] And it's when Mark starts to take apart a song sonically and starts to take apart the music and how the music is formed.

[00:01:51] It creates these openings where Nicole will like zip in and she will drop these knowledge bombs or make these connections to, you know, what it's like to be a human being and to talk about the human experience.

[00:02:07] And then how that relates to the music and how a particular song will trigger a particular emotion or we'll talk about a particular concept.

[00:02:18] In this episode, Mark is talking about how the notes move around on the scale, which produces an emotional response.

[00:02:26] And then Nicole steps in with this flash of insight into what, you know, what are introverts and, you know, what that word means, because that word doesn't necessarily mean what it's supposed to mean.

[00:02:39] And so she starts to unpack it.

[00:02:40] And I had this real light bulb moment when Nicole was explaining that after Mark was talking about how the song sonically operates and how it how it touches that that human experience.

[00:02:53] So the intellectual unpacking of the music, the insights into the human condition, the intersection of music and art.

[00:03:04] That's all of the stuff that makes this podcast a truly exceptional series.

[00:03:11] So take a listen to this episode and then go over to Nevermind the Music to their feed and subscribe.

[00:03:18] There's a link in the show notes below in the in the link tree.

[00:03:21] Just click on that and scroll down to the bottom.

[00:03:23] Better yet, just right now, just do that now before you listen to the episode, because trust me, if you subscribe to the Lorehounds and you like the kinds of things that we do with television, movies and books,

[00:03:37] you're absolutely going to get the same feeling and vibe over on Nevermind the Music.

[00:03:44] And it's just going to be around song.

[00:03:46] And like I said, you don't have to enjoy the artist or the song because there's a lot more going on than just a particular piece of music.

[00:03:55] It's a it's true exploration and I can't recommend it more highly.

[00:04:00] Thanks for listening.

[00:04:01] Enjoy the episode.

[00:04:02] We'll talk to you soon.

[00:04:03] But this guitar riff is based on sixths.

[00:04:07] Sixths.

[00:04:08] Oh, that is a rough word in the English language.

[00:04:11] Everybody, everybody at home.

[00:04:13] Sixths.

[00:04:14] Sixths.

[00:04:15] Sixths.

[00:04:16] I can't do it.

[00:04:28] Hi, I'm Mark.

[00:04:29] I'm Nicole.

[00:04:30] And you're listening to Nevermind the Music.

[00:04:32] What are we going to talk about today, Mark?

[00:04:34] Nicole.

[00:04:35] What?

[00:04:38] How good are you at enjoying the silence?

[00:04:44] I'm very uncomfortable.

[00:04:45] Are you generally uncomfortable with silence?

[00:04:48] Yes.

[00:04:48] I completely agree.

[00:04:50] People talk about that whole concept of, you know, if you just really love someone or you're you have a really good friend, can't you just sit in the car and drive for 20 minutes and just be with your thoughts and just enjoy being together?

[00:05:01] And I'm like, that sounds very uncomfortable.

[00:05:05] Even with somebody I know and love really well.

[00:05:09] It's hard to not talk.

[00:05:10] I mean, my partner is a quiet human and we're pretty good at sitting in silence with each other.

[00:05:19] For sure.

[00:05:20] I talk in my sleep sometimes.

[00:05:23] I believe that.

[00:05:24] Yeah, I'm one of those guys like if the elevator ride is long enough, I'm probably going to have to look and make some kind of awkward comment about the elevator ride just because the space of silence.

[00:05:35] Oh my gosh.

[00:05:35] It's not just social, though.

[00:05:37] Like I listen to a lot of podcasts.

[00:05:39] I listen to a lot of music.

[00:05:41] If I ever went for a long run and my music player died in the first five minutes and I had like a lot of time just to be alone, I think I would go crazy during that time.

[00:05:51] I was in the elevator with someone yesterday and the door closed.

[00:05:55] It was four floors.

[00:05:56] By the time the doors opened, we knew a lot about each other.

[00:05:59] Like we got into it in this elevator ride.

[00:06:01] So I completely relate to what you're saying.

[00:06:03] Your school has crazy elevators where like it takes 10 minutes to get up them.

[00:06:07] And then once you're in them, you don't know what floor it's getting.

[00:06:09] They're haunted, I think.

[00:06:11] It's really my school made an effort to like modernize their elevator systems a few years ago because they kept breaking down.

[00:06:18] So like a lot of people in elevators are awkward because like we're very scared that we're going to get trapped.

[00:06:24] They're really coffin like and it's it's so flawed.

[00:06:27] Wow.

[00:06:27] All right.

[00:06:28] We'll have to we'll have to unpack that another time.

[00:06:30] So we are listeners.

[00:06:31] We are talking about Depeche Mode's 1990 hit.

[00:06:35] Enjoy the silence.

[00:06:46] You know, this is their biggest hit.

[00:06:48] I believe it.

[00:06:49] I know the song really well.

[00:06:50] I used to work at a magic store, like performing magic tricks.

[00:06:55] It's we don't have to talk about it.

[00:06:56] No, we do have to talk about that.

[00:06:58] It is now not the time to talk about that.

[00:07:00] We can talk.

[00:07:00] OK.

[00:07:01] Can I call them magic or do I have to call it illusion?

[00:07:04] No, it was very much.

[00:07:06] They were illusions.

[00:07:07] So I used to work at a magic store.

[00:07:10] It was one of my first jobs performing illusions.

[00:07:13] Wow.

[00:07:13] Inside a giant magic hat.

[00:07:15] It was like a big stage.

[00:07:17] I was 16 years old.

[00:07:18] It was kind of awful.

[00:07:20] Whatever.

[00:07:21] But this song was on the soundtrack.

[00:07:23] So I listened to the song so many times.

[00:07:26] This one hit number eight and it's their biggest songs.

[00:07:29] This one from Violator, which also has Policy of Truth, Personal Jesus, World in My Eyes.

[00:07:35] Records produced by Flood.

[00:07:37] Do you know Flood?

[00:07:38] No.

[00:07:38] Do you know the Joshua Tree?

[00:07:40] Yeah.

[00:07:41] Do you know Pretty Hate Machine?

[00:07:42] Yes.

[00:07:43] Do you know Melancholy and the Infinite Sadness?

[00:07:45] Oh, that's a great one.

[00:07:46] Is that all Flood?

[00:07:47] It's all Flood.

[00:07:47] Yeah.

[00:07:48] So that's backing up U2, Nine Inch Nails, Smashing Pumpkins, among other things.

[00:07:53] Right.

[00:07:54] So a lot of the sound of the late 80s and real time stamp to late 90s in particular.

[00:08:01] Right.

[00:08:01] So gosh, there's something about this song that is so melancholy.

[00:08:05] That's so sad sounding, but also highly romantic to me, which is so strange.

[00:08:10] There's something about the music of it, the tone of Dave Gahan's voice.

[00:08:14] It all has this darkness and this weight to it.

[00:08:17] Yeah.

[00:08:17] While being very sweet.

[00:08:29] The lyrics are dark.

[00:08:31] There's a sadness to this idea.

[00:08:33] I think it's, yeah.

[00:08:34] Like, all I ever wanted is here, but the words are going to spoil it.

[00:08:38] And I think that's beautiful.

[00:08:39] And I think it's aspirational to me.

[00:08:41] Like, I wish that's how I felt about human interaction, that I could just say nothing

[00:08:46] and still be happy with it.

[00:08:47] There's something like dark about it, right?

[00:08:50] Yeah.

[00:08:50] And I think it's not just the lyrics.

[00:08:52] I think it has something to do with this guitar riff that we hear.

[00:09:01] It feels like really tiptoey.

[00:09:04] Tiptoey.

[00:09:05] Ooh, that's interesting.

[00:09:06] Yeah.

[00:09:06] I don't know how to explain that term, but I like it.

[00:09:10] It's interesting.

[00:09:10] It's not a music theory term, though.

[00:09:12] I can definitely say.

[00:09:13] Shock.

[00:09:14] What I want to talk about with this song is the interplay between that guitar riff and

[00:09:19] the chord progression.

[00:09:20] Okay, so let's listen to the beginning of this song.

[00:09:33] No guitar, just synths and drums.

[00:09:35] That is a C minor and then an E flat chord.

[00:09:38] C minor and E flat.

[00:09:40] Those chords are based on the note C and the note E flat.

[00:09:46] Big surprise, right?

[00:09:48] Those notes are what we call a third apart.

[00:09:52] Do you know the term third in music?

[00:09:54] I know that like there's full steps and half steps.

[00:09:57] So third probably means like one and a half steps.

[00:10:00] So is that right?

[00:10:02] Yeah.

[00:10:02] So a third is an interval, right?

[00:10:04] An interval in music means a distance, right?

[00:10:06] So if you have a note C and you go up one note, that's a D.

[00:10:11] How many steps is that?

[00:10:13] One.

[00:10:13] But we say it's a second.

[00:10:15] Isn't that weird?

[00:10:15] I get it.

[00:10:16] C to C is a one, right?

[00:10:19] C to C is one.

[00:10:20] So C to D is two.

[00:10:22] So C to E, or in this case E flat, which is sort of like sad E, is a third.

[00:10:28] So listen to that distance here.

[00:10:33] So we've got the C to the E flat.

[00:10:35] Just trust me, that's a third.

[00:10:36] And we build chords on it and we get this.

[00:10:45] Why are we not saying D sharp?

[00:10:47] Aren't they the same?

[00:10:48] They sound the same.

[00:10:49] But in the scale, you already have a D, a D regular.

[00:10:53] Oh.

[00:10:53] So the next note, you wouldn't call it.

[00:10:55] Like you wouldn't go C, D, D sharp.

[00:10:57] You want the next note to be a different letter, right?

[00:10:59] It keeps it easier to keep track of.

[00:11:01] C, D, E flat.

[00:11:02] On a piano, if you were going to say play me an E flat, bing, and then you say play me

[00:11:06] a D sharp, bing, and you'd hit the same key.

[00:11:08] Same key.

[00:11:09] They are enharmonically equivalent.

[00:11:10] Ooh.

[00:11:11] That's another fancy term.

[00:11:12] Love it.

[00:11:12] They're the same note, but they have different names.

[00:11:16] When I'm hanging out with you, I am called Mark.

[00:11:19] When I am with my kids, I might be called dad, for example, right?

[00:11:23] Oh.

[00:11:24] So anyways, we've got chords moving by thirds.

[00:11:27] Chords moving by thirds happens all the time.

[00:11:30] Usually though, they go down.

[00:11:32] This one goes up C to E flat.

[00:11:34] So let's go back to this guitar riff.

[00:11:41] That is not a third.

[00:11:43] That is a sixth.

[00:11:44] Double.

[00:11:45] Double.

[00:11:45] Okay.

[00:11:46] That's actually technically correct.

[00:11:48] Yes.

[00:11:48] But what if I said a sixth was a third upside down?

[00:11:52] What?

[00:11:54] I need a flow chart.

[00:11:54] That doesn't make any sense, right?

[00:11:56] So this chord progression is built on threes, but this guitar riff is based on sixth.

[00:12:02] Sixths.

[00:12:03] Ooh.

[00:12:04] That is a rough word in the English language.

[00:12:06] Everybody at home.

[00:12:08] Sixths.

[00:12:08] Sixths.

[00:12:10] Sixths.

[00:12:11] I can't do it.

[00:12:12] Gosh.

[00:12:13] Is this...

[00:12:14] Try to sing it.

[00:12:15] It's even better.

[00:12:16] Sixths.

[00:12:16] Sixths.

[00:12:17] So anyways, a sixth is an inversion.

[00:12:20] An inversion of a third.

[00:12:22] What that means is it's upside down.

[00:12:24] So let me show you what I'm talking about.

[00:12:26] Can you just play me?

[00:12:27] I'm not going to be able to see the music.

[00:12:29] Wait, wait.

[00:12:30] What are you talking about?

[00:12:31] I can't tell if you're trying to be funny.

[00:12:33] I'm going to play a third, but then we're going to flip it upside down.

[00:12:36] We're going to take one note, stick it on top when it used to be on bottom.

[00:12:40] We're going to play a third, and then we're going to take that bottom note, the C, and

[00:12:44] we're going to put it higher.

[00:12:45] And suddenly that third becomes a sixth.

[00:12:52] That da-da becomes da-da.

[00:12:56] And remember da-da-da-da.

[00:12:58] This guitar riff.

[00:13:05] So that guitar riff is based on an upside down version of our chord progression.

[00:13:12] And there's something about the interconnectedness of these two parts that makes this feel so...

[00:13:19] There's something about the negative space almost of the upside down chord progression

[00:13:24] that makes this feel so haunting and also so natural.

[00:13:29] So like perfect for the song.

[00:13:31] And like kind of comforting too.

[00:13:33] Like that last upside down guitar riff you played felt really comforting.

[00:13:38] It felt really cozy.

[00:13:39] And it felt kind of like home, if that makes sense to me.

[00:13:43] It fits within the musical world they've established even in the first five seconds

[00:13:48] of this song.

[00:13:49] It's really smart.

[00:14:06] Would it surprise you to hear that the original version of this song did not have the guitar

[00:14:10] at all?

[00:14:11] What?

[00:14:11] It would surprise me.

[00:14:12] So this is written by Martin Gore, who, you know, is songwriter, keyboardist, backing vocalist,

[00:14:17] but also plays some guitar.

[00:14:18] You know, this is a synth band, not really a guitar band, right?

[00:14:20] But this is the original version, the demo of this song.

[00:14:34] It's much less interesting.

[00:14:36] It's super beautiful, but it doesn't have the beat, doesn't have the guitar riff.

[00:14:40] That's Martin Gore singing, not Dave Gahan.

[00:14:42] But he was convinced to make an upbeat version and to add this.

[00:14:45] The melody and the chords of this song are beautiful, but there's something about the

[00:14:49] comfort of that guitar part that sort of makes it and makes it sort of iconic, I would

[00:14:54] say.

[00:14:55] So not only that, they're not done.

[00:14:57] They flip the third upside down, but then listen to the second part of this guitar riff.

[00:15:02] We play a sixth and then we go start at sixth.

[00:15:05] Then we go higher to a seventh and then we go lower to a fifth.

[00:15:14] And then we do it down a third.

[00:15:23] So we flipped our third upside down.

[00:15:25] We're noodling around that.

[00:15:26] And then we lower it itself down a third, which is the opposite of going up a third,

[00:15:30] which is what the chords are doing.

[00:15:32] So it's this kind of complicated web of almost mirrors and upside down topsy-turvy music.

[00:15:38] I don't know.

[00:15:38] Have I lost you?

[00:15:39] What do you think?

[00:15:40] A little bit, but I understand the feeling that it creates.

[00:15:42] And I think that like that feeling is very, very visceral.

[00:15:46] This feeling of kind of like emotional intimacy, right?

[00:15:49] Like that's what it's bringing up to me.

[00:15:51] And I know that that's what the song is referencing lyrically, but the chords that you're referencing,

[00:15:56] the way you're explaining it.

[00:15:57] And when I hear it, I can feel that like kind of, like you said, this like complicated tangled

[00:16:02] web of what it takes to be so comfortable with someone that you can sit in silence with them.

[00:16:08] And I think that relates to like the tone and the vibe of the song, which is cool.

[00:16:12] And Martin Gore did not think the upbeat tempo and the guitar part fit the notion of enjoying

[00:16:20] the silence.

[00:16:20] But I feel like that tension is part of what makes this song so beautiful.

[00:16:23] So we've got this chord change.

[00:16:30] We've got it inverted upside down.

[00:16:36] And then that chord change that went up a third, the guitar has come down a third.

[00:16:45] And it's so it's this complex sort of web that creates this really pretty tapestry.

[00:16:52] They continue with this sort of mirror image thing in the verse section, the words like

[00:16:57] violence part.

[00:16:58] We go up C to E flat, but then we go down a third from C to A flat.

[00:17:05] So again, they're showing us this sort of mirror image.

[00:17:08] Listen to this section.

[00:17:17] That new chord is a third below C, right?

[00:17:30] You're talking about like you're really secretly hinting towards some psychological constructs

[00:17:36] of introversion and extroversion, right?

[00:17:38] This idea that some of us as humans tend to look inward more and some of us as humans tend

[00:17:46] to look outward more for like our how we recharge our social battery.

[00:17:51] Are you?

[00:17:52] Yeah.

[00:17:52] Are you familiar with those terms?

[00:17:54] Introvert, extrovert.

[00:17:55] Sure.

[00:17:56] Yeah, sure.

[00:17:56] When you think of an introvert, what do you like if you close your eyes and think of

[00:17:59] an introverted person?

[00:18:01] What does that person look like to you?

[00:18:03] I think an introverted person is someone who would rather hang out at home instead of go

[00:18:07] out with their friends, right?

[00:18:08] Yeah, sure.

[00:18:10] Or is it not that?

[00:18:11] Is it just the person that would rather not express themselves outwardly?

[00:18:15] Not going to necessarily want to be on stage, not going to necessarily want to.

[00:18:20] I don't know.

[00:18:21] You're looking at me like you're waiting for the correct definition.

[00:18:24] I am.

[00:18:24] Yes.

[00:18:24] And I do not know it.

[00:18:25] So you're going to have to give it to me.

[00:18:26] I know what it is intuitively.

[00:18:28] Yeah.

[00:18:28] I think that like what you're describing is what a lot of people like think of when they

[00:18:31] think of introvert.

[00:18:32] They think of like a quiet homebody person.

[00:18:36] Now, I codify myself as an introvert.

[00:18:39] Right.

[00:18:40] But I'm someone who I'm my job is to speak in front of people.

[00:18:45] I like being around people generally.

[00:18:47] But at the end of the day when I'm tired, I don't want to like go out to a party.

[00:18:52] I don't want to talk to anybody.

[00:18:53] I want to be like alone in enjoying the silence as it were.

[00:18:58] Right.

[00:18:58] Yeah.

[00:18:58] So that's what a true introvert is as someone that when they need to recharge their social

[00:19:04] battery, they'd rather do it alone.

[00:19:06] Like if I had a long day and I go for a long walk, I don't want anything in my ear.

[00:19:10] I don't want any noises.

[00:19:11] I want quiet.

[00:19:12] It's not the same as being shy.

[00:19:14] No, I don't think I'm shy, but I think I'm introverted.

[00:19:17] Because I think I'm shy, but extroverted.

[00:19:19] You're very extroverted.

[00:19:20] I play a character to get through the shyness, right?

[00:19:24] Like I'm maybe quite comfortable in front of a classroom, but pretty nervous on stage.

[00:19:28] But I play a character that isn't nervous on stage.

[00:19:31] I say that to my students all the time that I'm playing the role of a college professor.

[00:19:36] Right.

[00:19:36] Right.

[00:19:36] And like acting a certain way.

[00:19:38] And I'm acting competent, everybody.

[00:19:40] I'm acting like I know these things.

[00:19:42] But you want to know like how those terms came to be?

[00:19:45] Yeah, sure.

[00:19:46] When you talk about the terms introvert and extrovert, there was a psychoanalyst.

[00:19:51] He worked with Freud.

[00:19:52] His name was Carl Jung.

[00:19:53] Do you know that name at all?

[00:19:55] Yeah, we talked about Jung.

[00:19:56] Oh, Jung's the coolest.

[00:19:59] Arguably.

[00:20:00] But he created these terms as a way to kind of codify humans and like the study of personality.

[00:20:06] So we use personality theory as a way to like make sense of the world around us.

[00:20:11] Like there's so many different types of people.

[00:20:14] We are not all unique, delicate snowflakes.

[00:20:17] We are all much more similar than we are different.

[00:20:19] And Carl Jung was the first guy that said like, yeah, we do have these innate similarities.

[00:20:24] Some of us are more introverted.

[00:20:26] Some of us prefer solitude and prefer contemplation and prefer quiet.

[00:20:32] And some of us prefer external stimuli.

[00:20:36] Right.

[00:20:36] Right.

[00:20:36] To like feel recharged.

[00:20:38] Like the question is, when your social battery is empty, what do you do to recharge it?

[00:20:42] Do you go out and be in a big crowded place?

[00:20:45] And does that like give you more?

[00:20:47] How do you get your energy?

[00:20:48] Or do you stay home and relax in quiet to like kind of recharge?

[00:20:52] So this song, is this an introvert or an extrovert?

[00:20:55] Because this person wants to be with somebody just doesn't think the words will just ruin it.

[00:21:00] Right.

[00:21:01] I think that that is someone who is extroverted by nature looking for peace and looking for peace in introversion and looking for someone that they can be so settled by that other person to fill their social battery that they don't need to use words when they're used to using words all the time.

[00:21:19] They don't need to play the character.

[00:21:20] They don't need to play the character.

[00:21:21] So this whole notion of the melody of a song being linked to the harmonic motion is, of course, not unique to this.

[00:21:49] A great example might be something like someone like you from 2011 by Adele.

[00:21:56] I heard that you're settled down, that you found a girl in your married marriage.

[00:22:10] Oh, such a good song.

[00:22:13] Yeah, it's awesome.

[00:22:14] Maybe we'll come back to that one.

[00:22:15] But the chord progression starts by going up a third.

[00:22:17] And then the next two chords from that first chord, you go down a third and then down again.

[00:22:22] But the melody, I'll bet, is a falling third.

[00:22:27] So clearly, once again, thirds are integral to this song.

[00:22:30] Do you think Depeche Mode could come after Adele for like stealing their motif?

[00:22:37] I think totally not because I think this is just bass level everywhere.

[00:22:41] This is a part of...

[00:22:44] First of all, the Adele song is fundamentally based on thirds going down, falling thirds.

[00:22:50] And that is just so common in any chord progression going back hundreds of years.

[00:22:55] Depeche Mode would be in turn sued by people hundreds of years before them.

[00:23:00] Though they tend to be going up thirds in this song, which is more uncommon.

[00:23:05] Here's another example, more mid-90s.

[00:23:08] Do you remember Sponge?

[00:23:10] No.

[00:23:11] The song Molly by Sponge?

[00:23:12] Oh, I remember that song.

[00:23:14] Can you play it?

[00:23:27] 100% you loved this song in the 90s.

[00:23:30] Me?

[00:23:31] Yeah.

[00:23:31] Of course.

[00:23:31] Yeah, this is like right in your wheelhouse.

[00:23:34] So the chords go down a third twice.

[00:23:36] The melody was going down a third and then going up a third.

[00:23:41] And then in the chorus, we get the vocals are going up a third and then down a third.

[00:23:46] It's just thirds all the way down.

[00:23:58] You know, you said earlier that you can't stand the silence.

[00:24:01] And I think it's because you listened to too much music like this growing up.

[00:24:04] But now you have bumblebees that live inside your brain.

[00:24:06] Too much post-grunge or whatever.

[00:24:08] I think that you just with that driving.

[00:24:09] Or too much Depeche Mode in late 80s, early 90s synth pop.

[00:24:13] I don't know.

[00:24:14] You just need filler.

[00:24:15] Wrapping up here.

[00:24:16] The thirds just keep going with this song.

[00:24:18] The very famous hook of this song starts on a different chord this time, but it goes up

[00:24:24] a third, up a third, and up again.

[00:24:36] We start on F.

[00:24:37] We go F, up to A flat, up to C, up to E flat, though the bass is on a different note.

[00:24:43] Up a third, up a third, up a third.

[00:24:45] That's the whole hook progression.

[00:25:00] Yeah.

[00:25:01] Yeah.

[00:25:02] Yeah.

[00:25:02] So what's my point?

[00:25:03] My point is that, and again, those thirds are going up, right?

[00:25:07] Which is more uncommon.

[00:25:08] And the hauntingness of this song, I think, is in part the lyrics, in part the tone of

[00:25:14] Dave Gahan's voice, all that stuff.

[00:25:16] But there's something about the unity and tension between this idea of thirds and sixths

[00:25:22] being the opposite of one another.

[00:25:24] Remember, the term is inversions.

[00:25:27] This third is an inversion of a sixth.

[00:25:29] That creates this mirror image idea that we have thirds going up, thirds going down,

[00:25:35] sixths going up.

[00:25:36] That this look inward.

[00:25:38] When you enjoy the silence, you're alone with your thoughts.

[00:25:40] You have to look almost at yourself mentally in the mirror.

[00:25:45] So also with Carl, I have more.

[00:25:47] Go for it.

[00:25:48] Way more.

[00:25:49] So Carl Jung came up with this idea.

[00:25:52] Then later, this mother-daughter team of Isabella Myers and her daughter, I forget her

[00:25:58] first name, but Briggs was the last name.

[00:26:00] They created the Myers-Briggs personality inventory that they kind of stole Carl Jung's idea and

[00:26:07] codified them into this MBTI assessment, which you're familiar with.

[00:26:12] We use it all over the place because they never copyrighted it.

[00:26:16] So everyone's stolen this MBTI.

[00:26:18] And now we use it all in college, like the StrengthsQuest or the Do What You Are or something

[00:26:24] that's all an MBTI repackaging.

[00:26:26] What categorizes you as a personality type, right?

[00:26:29] Yeah.

[00:26:29] And then later, Raymond Cattell, nerd alert, went and he said, you know, we're not all

[00:26:37] true introverts and we're not all true extroverts.

[00:26:40] Like if you were a true extrovert, you'd be a lunatic, right?

[00:26:43] You'd be a madman.

[00:26:44] You'd be running around with bees buzzing inside your head all day.

[00:26:47] You couldn't sit still.

[00:26:49] So he created this inventory called the Big Five Personality Assessment that measured,

[00:26:54] spoiler, five personality traits on a spectrum.

[00:26:58] And they said introversion, extroversion.

[00:27:00] It's not either you're one or the other.

[00:27:02] You could be 70% extroverted and 30% introverted, which...

[00:27:08] That sounds like me.

[00:27:09] That sounds like almost everybody.

[00:27:11] Yeah.

[00:27:11] And there's a word for that.

[00:27:13] Do you know what that word is when you're a little bit of both?

[00:27:16] Everybody.

[00:27:16] A hybrid.

[00:27:18] Kind of, but it's called an ambivert.

[00:27:21] Ambivert.

[00:27:22] Ambivert.

[00:27:22] Like being ambidextrous.

[00:27:24] Yeah.

[00:27:24] Like you, you are both and we're all like ambiverts and it just depends on the environment

[00:27:31] that we're in.

[00:27:32] Yeah.

[00:27:33] How we act.

[00:27:34] And this is a, to me, a sad, but not, not because of negative outcomes, but sort of a

[00:27:39] melancholy love song about maybe that ambivertion on some level.

[00:27:45] And trying to find someone that matches where you are, right?

[00:27:49] That matches you or like not matches, but like balances you.

[00:27:54] I think that's lovely.

[00:27:56] Like a third balances a six.

[00:27:58] Just like that.

[00:27:59] Exactly.

[00:27:59] And that's what they were thinking.

[00:28:01] Okay.

[00:28:01] Did you watch this video?

[00:28:02] I didn't.

[00:28:03] Oh my gosh.

[00:28:04] You need to watch this video.

[00:28:05] Dave Gahan is dressed up as a king, you know, like a Renaissance fair king walking around

[00:28:12] alone, setting up a lawn chair.

[00:28:15] One of them looks like it's, you know, the rolling hills of Scotland or something.

[00:28:19] Beautiful green.

[00:28:20] And then he ends up at the end of the video in the Swiss Alps or some mountainous snowy

[00:28:25] just sitting by himself walking around.

[00:28:28] It's really strange.

[00:28:29] And his beard keeps changing.

[00:28:31] So like he's got this long beard as the king.

[00:28:33] But then when he's singing with the band, when it shows these brooding shots of the band,

[00:28:37] he's all clean shaven.

[00:28:38] Like there's the like lonely mountain man mixed with king version of him.

[00:28:44] And then there's the band version.

[00:28:46] It doesn't seem like it correlates with the song at all.

[00:28:49] But does it?

[00:28:49] If you watch it, does it like vibe?

[00:28:51] I think it's about a person alone, a person alone in the world.

[00:28:55] It doesn't quite fit the lyrics really, but honestly, it's less shocking than watching

[00:28:59] the early promo video of them playing atop the World Trade Center.

[00:29:04] Check that out.

[00:29:05] That is a trip to watch.

[00:29:07] Yeah.

[00:29:07] The original like sort of just made for publicity version of this video is just the band on top

[00:29:13] of the Twin Towers, one of the towers.

[00:29:16] Maybe that's it.

[00:29:17] I just have to be alone with my thoughts now and the sheer terror that will bring.

[00:29:21] I mean, I think of how many times I've done very awkward things just to fill the silence.

[00:29:28] Totally.

[00:29:29] And it's like I'm up at night thinking of like the stupid thing I said at the faculty meeting.

[00:29:36] But it was like a decade ago and you're still thinking about it.

[00:29:38] And I'm still in third grade.

[00:29:39] Just to fill the silence.

[00:29:41] Yeah.

[00:29:41] Third grade.

[00:29:41] Exactly.

[00:29:42] Your faculty meetings at third grade.

[00:29:43] Yeah.

[00:29:44] I mean, I feel like I need to try to just show up to a class and just sort of stare

[00:29:49] at them.

[00:29:50] Well, it's like that John Cage experimental sort of quote classical music piece for 33.

[00:29:56] Do you know that?

[00:29:57] Yeah, I do.

[00:29:58] Where the pianist just sits at the piano and doesn't play anything.

[00:30:02] The sheet music.

[00:30:02] There is published sheet music you can buy.

[00:30:04] That's just rests.

[00:30:06] You're supposed to not play.

[00:30:07] But the music is the reaction of the audience, right?

[00:30:11] The sound of them checking their watches.

[00:30:13] The sound of them coughing.

[00:30:14] That's the music.

[00:30:15] I love that.

[00:30:16] It's this concept piece.

[00:30:17] Maybe I should try that in my classroom.

[00:30:18] Just let's we got 75 minutes to kill.

[00:30:20] I'm going to stand in front and let you all learn something.

[00:30:24] Learn something.

[00:30:25] By saying nothing.

[00:30:26] Yeah, they call it polite wait time.

[00:30:28] Polite wait time.

[00:30:29] Yeah.

[00:30:29] Like when you ask a question, you're supposed to wait four seconds before you answer it.

[00:30:33] Except this is the entire length of a class they're paying money for.

[00:30:37] My direct deposit goes through either way.

[00:30:41] Nicole, can we do the outro credits acting like we're really self-conscious and really insecure

[00:30:46] as opposed to people who actually have voluntarily put themselves out on the internet?

[00:30:51] Let's try it.

[00:30:52] Never mind the music is hosted by Nicole Thatcher and me.

[00:30:55] Mark Pompany.

[00:30:56] I also do some other stuff.

[00:30:59] I guess you could subscribe and leave us a rating and review, but I don't know really

[00:31:05] if we'll be allowed on the major platforms for distribution.

[00:31:10] And if you could, like, if it's okay with you, could you let us know what you think?

[00:31:14] Because we're not really sure if this is working or not, and we really need your opinion to

[00:31:18] make sure it's okay.

[00:31:21] We're never music pod on all the major platforms.

[00:31:26] Um, we're not sure if we're going to stick with that title, but you know, if, if you have

[00:31:29] a better one, if you could tell us, that'd be awesome.

[00:31:31] You can email us if you have time at never music pod at gmail.com.

[00:31:36] We were thinking about doing like an episode with all of your, your comments and your letters

[00:31:42] and your notes.

[00:31:43] So if it's okay with you, if you could email us some, uh, that would be awesome.

[00:31:46] If you have time and we'll answer them on air.

[00:31:48] If, if, if the podcast still exists.

[00:31:51] Yeah.

[00:31:51] Thanks for listening.