Daredevil: Born Again S1-E4-7 – From Punisher to Muse (MCUniverse)

[00:00:00] The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. In one podcast called The Lorehounds by Some, a weekly recap with tons of analysis, two Wheel of Time superfans will lead you through a world of powerful magic, tricky prophecies, and cutthroat politics. Join me, John, and my co-host Alicia for weekly coverage of Season 3 by searching your podcast app for The Lorehounds.

[00:00:27] Dov'yandi se tovas again. It's time to roll the dice.

[00:00:32] Hello, MC Universe fans! Welcome back to Comics vs. A Lorehounds podcast. I'm Alicia.

[00:01:04] And I'm Jean. And we're back to paint you a picture of Daredevil Born Again, Episodes 4 through 7, Fresher Than the Blood and Muses Murals. The spoilers start now, so make sure you're caught up on the first seven episodes of Daredevil Born Again. But we also reserve the right to bring up anything from the previous Daredevil series and any other Marvel movies, TV shows, or comics we feel like. And we have a special guest joining us today. Luke, welcome!

[00:01:34] It's nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Thanks for coming. And for anyone who's not familiar with Luke, he is my co-host on Wool Shift Dust, so you can listen to us talk about Silo and I swear to God, very soon Dune. We promise it is coming. We haven't forgotten. Yeah. Oh, it's just been, I mean, with Daredevil and with Wheel of Time and stuff, and now we're

[00:02:01] already prepping for Andor and it's been a lot. It's been awesome. Hopefully I'm going to pop up on Andor. The Andor coverage I think is the plan as well. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And Jean too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm down for the Andor situation. Yeah. Let's see what it looks like. But today we are here to talk about episodes four through seven of Daredevil Born Again titled Six Semper Sistema with Interest, Excessive Force, Arts for Art's Sake.

[00:02:31] And so this is basically wrapping up the episodes that originated from the prior team of writers and directors. So again, quick recap, there was a team, a show runner and writers and such in place and directors, and they created six episodes. And then there's a writer strike. And during the strike, they reevaluated things and they brought in a new team of directors and writers, keeping some of the same people.

[00:02:55] And they decided to tie it more to the Netflix shows. So this is the end of that kind of awkwardness where there's sort of maybe a patchwork feeling at times because of that. I don't know if you guys agree. A little bit. A little bit. I'm going to say I've, I've, I've just caught up on the entire seven episodes. I just, Oh, wow. The entire seven episodes. Nice. The course of the last week.

[00:03:23] And I am both glad, but also appalled that nobody spoiled me on the first episode. Oh, wow. I was not ready to deal with that shit. Oh man. Oh man. Like you can't do that. You just, you can't just kill Foggy. I mean, I'm still in denial. I'm like, la la la. Okay. We said comic book spoilers. There is a thing where he fakes his own death in the comic books. Yes, there is.

[00:03:51] So that's it. And I'm just not even accepting any other reality. And he's in witness protection actually. So let's, let's hope that Foggy is in witness protection. If he does fight, if he has, if he has faked his own death, shout out. That is a very well-faked death. Yes. But yeah, if, for anyone who hasn't heard yet, you can listen to my and Jean's prior breakdowns of episodes one and two together.

[00:04:16] And we did a special look at episode three and actor Camar de los Reyes' legacy, the white tiger. So, and subscribers also have access to an extra prep app talking through all the Netflix Marvel shows. And that's in the super cast and Patreon feeds. But today, indeed we're wrapping up what was, uh, because the last two episodes are going to be from the new team. And that's going to be likely to like tie back to episode one and tie more into season two.

[00:04:44] So Jean, what are your hot takes on episodes four through seven overall? Um, episode five has been, is my favorite so far. Um, episode four with, um, Punisher, I think was my favorite scene so far. Okay.

[00:05:14] With him and Frank Castle talking, but overall, I just, I'm in love with episode five. I've watched it a few times already. Um, and I just like, you know, as most people who listen to our podcast, I'm a big fan of Kamala Khan, Kamala Khan. Right. Mm hmm.

[00:05:38] And I'm a big fan of her extended family. So Mr. Khan being in the episode was a highlight of my TV, um, viewing for this year.

[00:05:51] Um, cause I just love the guy. I love his character. I love how he is. Um, and I was so happy to see that tie in, um, with the two characters. Uh, so yeah, out of every single episode that all, all of the seven that we've had so far, five is the standout for me, my most enjoyable one. Um, and I just think that the season has been a success so far.

[00:06:20] Um, um, by the way, five, it's interesting that you call out that one because that's apparently the most untouched out of all the episodes.

[00:06:29] I mean, it's, it's, it's at the heart. Uh, it, it, it really brings Matt. We'll talk about it when we get to it, but it just, for me really shows Matt in a totally different light and a light that I think that we should see more often from the character because he's not just this, you know, guilt ridden, um, person all the time. Right. Um, there is some sort of, of levity.

[00:06:57] And there is some sort of, you know, I don't want to say, um, a lack of seriousness, but in the exchanges that he had with Mr. Khan, you can see that playfulness, um, with those two characters. And I just, I just really loved it. Okay, cool. Cool. And, uh, Luke, uh, you can do your hot takes for this season to this point and you're probably having trouble separating them after the binge and we haven't heard from you.

[00:07:24] Yeah. So I haven't really thought of them in episodic terms. Um, I was a huge fan of the Netflix, um, series and I am glad that this show is taking more of a turn to line up with the Netflix series.

[00:07:41] That's no, that's no disparagement on the creative team behind this first run of episodes. I just really liked the Netflix, um, series. And I hope this is, I hope this is prelude to getting more Punisher and more Jessica Jones. I'm kind of agnostic on Luke Cage and the less, the less said about Iron Fist, the better. Sorry. That's not making those sounds.

[00:08:12] Hypoplectic. Well, you can't have Jessica Jones without Luke Cage. I suppose, no. Um, I've, I've really enjoyed the series. I'm with you, John. I think my single favorite episode is episode five. Oh, wow.

[00:08:30] Um, just because like you say, I think it's a little, I think it's a little bit lighter in tone than all the others. And Charlie Cox, the actor that plays, uh, Matt Murdock, Bear Devil. He has really good comic timing. Yes. Um, and I like that because I've been a fan of Charlie Cox as an actor ever since he was in Stardust. Have you, um, two of you seen that film? No. Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[00:08:59] Um, totally forgot that he was in that, the fantasy one. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's kind of a light, that's kind of, kind of a light fantasy comedy and he's really good in that. So I like the fact that they, they let Charlie Cox showcase his sort of, um, comic chops. And yeah, I like the interaction between, um, Matt Murdock and Mr. Cullen.

[00:09:23] I've got to say that for the series as a whole, it's a little bit heavy on, it's a little bit heavy on Wilson Fisk. For me, there's a bit too much Fisk. That character always works better when he's the big bad in the background pulling the strings and you don't see too much of him. He's always there, but he's not necessarily on screen. And that's not a knock on, uh, Vincent Diofino. No, no.

[00:09:50] He does, he does that really, he does that part really well, but I feel like he's been, the character has been a bit overexposed. Um, this season, cause it, like Fisk works when he's a little bit mysterious and you don't really know what he's after or what his motivations are. And I just feel like he's been on screen a bit too much this season.

[00:10:14] Um, I was just saying before, uh, you joined us that off cam, uh, yeah, off, um, the mic that I like the balance, the way they're doing, they're placing Matt Murdock and Fisk, uh, next to each other's parallels. Yes. And, um, and I think there's like, there's like, I think the way they've, they've written Fisk as well, we've, there are parallels to Donald Trump and what's going on in the real world.

[00:10:42] If you want to see them, but those parallels aren't too heavy and it doesn't feel like it's hitting you over the head. It doesn't feel like it's over the head with allegory, which I was a bit worried about when they sort of started. Um, you know, he's running for mayor, he's becoming a politician. Oh, this could get a bit, this could get a bit on the nose if they're not really careful. But so far, I think they've walked that line, that line quite well.

[00:11:07] Um, I do miss the interaction between Matt Murdock, Foggy and Karen. I don't, I thought that was, there's nothing. I do realize they've got like new relationships, but I don't think there's anything as strong in this season as that, as that triangular relationship between those three characters. And it does mean that Murdock and Fisk, I think are carrying a like disproportionate weight of the story.

[00:11:35] Uh, so either, I certainly hope they bring, uh, Karen back. I think they're planning to do that. I'm assuming. Yeah. Yeah. A, cause she's a really good character. And B, let's not beat about the bush. I've got a massive crush on Deborah and Wolf. Of course, who wouldn't? Let's, let's, let's, let's be honest, you know? Um, but yeah, no, I've, I've, I've enjoyed it.

[00:11:59] And like I say, I hope that this is a catalyst to bring back at least Jessica Jones and Punisher. Cause I felt like those seasons never properly, same with Daredevil. Those seasons never properly backed up on Netflix. Those shows never got the ending they deserved. Yeah. Never got the crossover they deserve. That's for sure. Oh, that's yeah. That's true.

[00:12:24] Um, yeah, for me, um, I liked the, my favorites of the season so far are still the third followed by the first episode. So this batch of episodes overall was, I, I was a little rougher for me just because I think I already said, I felt like a, a sort of patchworkiness and we'll talk about it, especially with Muse.

[00:12:49] Um, where I just felt like character arcs were like suddenly cut short and it's like, Oh, uh, okay. Um, yeah. So I am looking forward to having something that, you know, that I just feels more cohesive, but there are definitely highlights. I was really glad to see Frank back. Of course. Um, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a really fun to see Yusuf Khan back as well. I agree with that.

[00:13:16] I also really love Kamala and, or Kamala and her family dynamics. And, um, I, I do wish it, I know that someone, uh, one of the producers is also someone from the Ms. Marvel TV show, but, uh, I felt like it didn't, I missed him having the rest of his family to bounce off of. Like, you know, it didn't sparkle as much, but, um, overall, you know, I'm having fun with this season.

[00:13:45] Uh, I just, uh, I just look forward to, I just think my, my main complaint is that like some things like Muse felt like suddenly cut short and, uh, maybe I just need to adjust myself to the pacing of this show. Yeah, no, I think that, I think that that's fair. It does. I mean, actually, I'm glad you sort of explained that they've got like different production teams. Cause I think that does explain a bit of the, a bit, a bit of the choppiness of it.

[00:14:11] Cause even watch, even watching like episodes back to back to back, it did, it did feel choppy. It did feel like this is, this is a bit unevenly paced. Um, yeah. And, and I think maybe the reason why you guys both like episode five best is because that is the most untouched one that, so it is like paced the way it was meant to be paced, you know? Yeah. I, um, I really like certain production design decisions in this.

[00:14:39] I like the Muse's arts that, you know, you were talking about it, not getting too political, but he has some, some bitch murals. Some dope ass murals, yo. Yeah. Just a shame they're painted in blood. Exactly. You know, I don't want that, but I'm just saying more of those in the city. That's what I need. I need more of those in the city. But then I wonder like, can he die the blood or is it just the red and brown parts that are blood?

[00:15:06] You know, you, that's, that's thinking that it went beyond me. I did not ponder that at all. That's blood. I said, it's blood. That's it. I like that his costume is canvas, you know, like that he's painting on. Yeah. Yeah. But I do wonder, yeah, is he, does he have, like, I want him, I wanted to learn more about his special, like blood manipulation powers where he can, uh, keep it from getting oxidized. So it stays red like that. Yeah.

[00:15:34] I was going to say watching that, watching that episode was a bit weird because I worked with somebody called Bastion. Oh. So that, that was, that was a little bit, that was a little bit. Oh, boy. Okay. Well, the four episodes we're going to be talking about them today through each other are Six Semper Sistemas, episode four. And that's the Punisher episode. I'm going to refer to it as shorthand. Uh, that one was written by David Feige and Jesse Wugetow and Feige, no relation to Kevin Feige.

[00:16:04] This is though an actual lawyer with a TV writing background and Wugetow wrote the upcoming Tron Aries sequel film. It's coming up this year. Okay. Um, and episode four was directed by Jeffrey Nakmanoff and he's directed a lot of cop dramas, but also Lovecraft Country. Rewind 1921, which is the one where he went back to the Tulsa massacre. Yeah, Lovecraft Country. Yeah. So underrated, boy. It's a good show. Yeah, it's such a shame. It's a second season. I know.

[00:16:34] Because also, um, Misha Green was the creator of that one and she released a blog post. She's like, well, if they're not going to give me a second season, here's some of the stuff I was going to do. Let me tell you what it is. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. But then you're like, oh man, we didn't get that. Exactly. Who's going to blow up? Uh, anyway, episode five with interest is the bank heist episode. That's the one you guys will cite it as your favorite. It was written by Gray and Godfrey, who's best known for writing in the DC Arrowverse.

[00:17:03] And it was directed by Jeffrey Nakmanoff again, the same guy who directed episode four. Um, episode six, Excessive Force. The episode that ends with that parallel fight between Daredevil and Fisk. That was written by Thomas Wong, directed by David Boyd, who previously directed like Firefly and The Walking Dead and a bunch of other stuff. Really prolific guy. Done a lot of stuff I like personally. Um, episode seven is the last one. Art for art's sake. The one where Muse dies.

[00:17:31] Written by Jill Blankenship, who also wrote episode three, which was my favorite this season. And directed by David Boyd, who also directed episode six. So yeah, as I said, we'll be mixing these through each other as we go. Jean, do you want to set up the first section since you, you called this out? Yeah, sure. So the Punisher returns. Following the death of Hector Ayala's White Tiger in episode three, Matt goes hunting for answers.

[00:18:00] He finds a bullet casing with the Punisher's logo and traces Frank Castle himself to an underground hideout where he's looking rough. He says he has nothing to do with the dirty cops committing crimes in his name, but he also calls out Matt for hiding from who he is. Yeah. Yeah. So you were excited, I guess, Luke, you said you love the, um, the Netflix show. So you, were you Leo pointing meme when he showed up?

[00:18:28] I was, I was, I was Leo pointing me and it's, it's like, cause obviously I'd read articles, you know, when the show was in pre-production, Punisher was coming back. So I was, I was, I was, I was stoked to see, um, Frank Castle again. And, um, I mean that, what's the guy's name? Bernthal? Yeah. John Bernthal. Bernthal.

[00:18:57] I mean, yeah, he just is, he just is the Punisher. Like I don't see, I don't see how that part could ever be recast now because the guy, the guy doesn't just play Frank Castle. He inhabits Frank Castle. He just is. You say that. And he said in an interview, we've all got a little Frank Castle in us. And I said, no, sir, we do not. No, no, no. And if I was conducting that interview, I'd be backing away.

[00:19:28] Um, but yeah, it's, it's an, it's a nice scene because obviously, obviously Matt Murdock is trying to go straight. He's trying to just be a lawyer in the system. And Frank is telling him that's not who you are. You can try, you can try as much as you like. Like, it goes back to the, the scene with Fisk and the diner.

[00:19:53] And I think episode two, where Fisk is talking about the violent nature. Um, and Frank is really making the same point. Yeah. You are who you are, who you are. Um, but I mean, this is the difference between Daredevil and Punisher. Daredevil wants to see justice done.

[00:20:16] And it's not just that bad people should be punished, but they should be punished proportionate to their crimes. That there should be some sense of justice being done and right being served. Frank just wants to kill people that piss him off. Well, I mean, he started with being driven by justice. He started by driven by revenge. Revenge. Yes. There's a difference.

[00:20:45] There's a, it's a flying line, I guess. Maybe not so fine with him. It's very wide and blood split. I always think that, that debate between justice and revenge and working within the system and having your own rules is an interesting, is an interesting philosophical debate. He's not, uh, uh, Frank Castle is not a hero to me. No. In the way that we think of heroes, right?

[00:21:13] Of superheroes and, and, and such. He's, he's not that. Um, what he is, is, you know, someone who's committed to making sure that the bad guys, whoever he deems to be the bad guys don't get away. Right. And that's a very different thing than being what we would think of when we're talking about superheroes. And so, yeah, he's unhinged and, um, he has a code and he'll follow that code.

[00:21:43] But that code is not something that, you know, I would wish that everyone walked around following, you know, because that would lead to very bad outcomes for a lot of people who probably may not deserve those outcomes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, you know, is from what Luke was saying about this being him really just inhabiting the role. And you've said similar before, Sean.

[00:22:10] Um, I think it's amazing that they made me forget that he's Shane from the walking dead. Yeah. Cause he inhabited that role, you know? Yeah. Who is another villain. Who's actually, I would argue Shane is worse than Frank Castle because John, you and I had the debate before that he, we talked about him compared to Fisk and we agreed. And I don't know, Luke, if you agree with us on this, but we agreed that Fisk, I don't think Fisk really had, I don't think Fisk has empathy.

[00:22:37] Um, I think he actually literally is a, you know, um, a, a psychopath by, you know, Heather would diagnose him as such. Uh, whereas Frank, I think he has rage and he channels it the wrong way, but I, we do see him, um, sticking up for it. Or the less fortunate. And so it's interesting that Frank is being called a hero by the worst cops.

[00:23:07] And these are exactly the sorts of cops who he would be first to take out are the ones who are worshiping him. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I do, I like how they left him looking a bit rough here. Um, you know, we, John and I, we were talking about in our recap of, of the Netflix shows that like, they kind of left Frank's story.

[00:23:29] Is kind of neatly tied up, but he was, he was digressing at the end, but it was sort of like, it's almost like he doesn't know what to live for now that he got revenge for the killing of his family. Yeah. Yeah. He still has this rage and he doesn't know what's driving. He doesn't, he needs a cause. Yeah. He doesn't know what, he doesn't know how to channel that rage. He doesn't know what to, to, to direct it towards. So it was just kind of sparking off, sparking off in all different directions.

[00:23:57] And like, I don't think that's another difference between Matt Murdock and Punisher. Murdock has some sense of serving something larger than himself in the sense of, in the first place, I think, helps Kitchen, you know, his immediate community. But I think he also has a wider commitment to, particularly through his, through his rather idiosyncratic interpretation of his faith.

[00:24:23] He has a wider commitment to, to humanity as well. I don't think Frank has, because fundamentally Frank Castle doesn't believe in anything. He's a, he's a nihilist. Yeah. Yeah. That might be true. He believes in revenge. Yeah. And then with this series, with this episode also, the question of justice, right?

[00:24:49] Because this is the episode where he defends the career criminal, the career thief, gets him a reduced sentence. And the guy was like, well, you want me to go to jail for caramel popcorn, man? Yeah. They're like, this is, this is what you want me, you want me to spend 10 days in jail for caramel popcorn? Come on, dude. Right? So that notion of what is justice, right?

[00:25:16] Which is what him and Frank are trying to determine themselves. Right? And here is Matt, as a lawyer, being confronted with that question. Right? This is someone who is not likable, but is he getting what he deserves for this? Right? Right.

[00:25:39] Do you feel good about what you've got, what deal you've brokered for this man? Right? Not about the man himself, but about the notion of what is fair, what is right, and how are we administering justice? Which is what Daredevil and Punisher are ultimately trying to do, administer justice. Yeah.

[00:26:08] But unlike Frank, Matt has to do that with and without the mask. Mm-hmm. Right? Or he gets to, I guess. He gets. Because it, yeah. He can. He seems to pick and choose which way he thinks is the best way to handle a situation. Right. And as we see, you know, this whole notion of who he is, but I think that theme, that is central to who he is, the question of what is justice. Mm-hmm.

[00:26:38] Right? Whether he's in the mask or without the mask. That is central to his character. And this episode did a very good job of highlighting that because, you know, a lot of folks were upset with the man. Like, he's not a nice guy.

[00:26:56] Like, we understand the, what we're talking about, but is this the right vehicle to get that point across about an unfair justice system? Right? There are no perfect victims. You know? Mm-hmm. It is what it is. Yeah. This guy is not a nice person. He's not likable. No. But does he deserve to be in jail for stealing caramel popcorn? Yeah. No, that's a good point.

[00:27:26] That's a good point. And I love that the show was able to have this dual conversation about justice for these characters, these heroes, or, you know, people who want to be heroes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Shall we take a quick pause here? And when we come back, we're going to talk about both of your favorite episodes. Let's do it.

[00:28:11] Okay. Time for a bank heist. Matt's law practice is in a bit of financial trouble, so he's at the bank to meet with none other than Yusuf Khan, father of Kamala Khan, a.k.a. Miss Marvel, who's a bank heist. To ask for a loan. When a bank heist begins, Matt and Yusuf put themselves in the middle of it to thwart the bank robbers' plans and protect the other hostages.

[00:28:32] After a final confrontation with Matt, one of the robbers escapes dressed as a police officer, passing off what he thinks is the diamond the heist was set up to steal to his accomplice amongst the hostages. But the real diamond turns up the next day in the candy bowl on Yusuf's desk. So, Jean, why was this your favorite? I mean, you talked a bit about it already, both of you. Yeah. Just Mr. Khan. I love Mr. Khan. Sue me. No.

[00:29:02] I like the character. I like the actor who plays the character. I just like everything about him. Um, and, you know, there's this playfulness in this episode that Luke kind of spoke to about, you know, the comedic timing that Matt has.

[00:29:25] Like this deadpan when you know he's, you know, just itching to unleash, you know, righteous anger on these, on these folks. But he has to rein it in and he, you just look at his face and the little smirks that he's making. Like, I could take this guy at any time, but I can't do it right now. So let me play along. It was just a very nice cat and mouse game that he was playing with the bank robbers. And I appreciated that.

[00:29:52] And I thought, um, the robbers themselves, I thought they were hilarious. You know, um, they, it was, it just was a nice getaway from what the series had been putting us through for one episode. Mm-hmm.

[00:30:12] You know, it was just a nice little segue into what Matt could run into, you know, and how does he handle running into situations like this? Because these things pop up probably more often than not. We just don't see them. Right? So here he is in the middle of this bank heist. And how does he save all these people? Mm-hmm. Without revealing who he is. And I just really liked that. Yeah. It was fun to see him do his thing.

[00:30:40] I think this is more of the type of episode that we used to get when, you know, we had longer seasons. Hmm. Because it barely moves the plot forward, but it's. No, in no way. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but it's, I mean, there's, we'll talk about the diamond actually more as part of another plot because the diamond was worth 1.8 million conveniently, which is an amount that somebody's trying to get their hands on.

[00:31:04] Um, but yeah, mostly it was just kind of like more of a fun self-contained episode. Yeah. And I, and I really, I'm sorry. I just really appreciated that about it. Mm-hmm. And I hear a lot of, a lot of people loving it, including you, Luke. Go for it. Yeah. So, I mean, I actually, like you, like you sort of, uh, hinting at it, at least, John, I kind of, I kind of like the fact that it doesn't move the plot forward.

[00:31:28] Sometimes it's nice to just have an episode that just is entirely self-contained. And I think you, John kind of made the point, it's, it's a palate cleanser really for, for the, for the two halves of the season. It's just nice to have a bit of a break from the intensity. Yes. Of, of the main plot. So it's just like, sometimes it's nice to just have the tempo and the volume turned down a little bit and just something that's just a little bit mellower and a bit more chill.

[00:31:59] Um, I always, I like it when Matt Murdoch, I like, I like when Matt Murdoch is doing his lawyering. I like it when he's figuring stuff out when it's not just, I'm going to turn people into a sticky pulp. You know, there's actually like some, he's actually using the skills and the abilities he's got in different and in different and interesting ways.

[00:32:24] So I really, I really appreciated the bit where he's doing the safe, the safe cracking and you see listening to the tumblers fall into place. Also, I really liked the police negotiator. She was a great little, um, side character. Detective Angie Kim. We saw her earlier. She was talking to Cherry, I think in the opening episode. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I did, I did laugh more than I should have at the penguin joke.

[00:32:52] It was, it was in very poor, it was in very poor taste. Okay. I have one big gripe about that. And that is the way it sent me down a rabbit hole. The way she said, would she say Donagal or something? And I just, I've actually never been to this part of Ireland. It's, it's the Northwest part of Ireland. It's supposed to be even especially pretty for that. But I know people who are from there and who studied there and they all say Donagal. And I'm like, there's Irish people on set. Why is nobody correcting her?

[00:33:22] I don't know. If there are any Irish listeners, let us know who's correct. How do you say, is it Donagal? That's how I always, Donagal. Donagal. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Um, what did, yeah, it was kind of funny to have a St. Patrick's day episode with Irish robbers because they're Protestants, not Catholics. Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:49] Um, yeah, I loved my favorite part of this episode was definitely, I did like to see Daredevil do all the Daredevil stuff. You know, the fact that he can also crack safes because of his super hearing and all that. And, um, and just like the playing like, Oh, I'm just an innocent blind man. Why don't we just go alone in this stair in the stairwell so I can kick your ass. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, the best part of that is when he's walking back into the bank, just like whistling, just

[00:34:19] like whistling to himself. Yes. Yeah. Um, and yeah, I was, I'm always happy to see a member of the Khan family. I was very excited that they agreed to these dinner party plans. I know. Yeah. I'm in full clown makeup. I don't know that we'll get it on this show, but I'm hoping we're getting it like maybe a Ms. Marvel too. And then I started to think like, okay, so we've got him having connections with, um,

[00:34:46] with, with, uh, Spider-Man of course, uh, because he's a very good lawyer. Although he did. I presumably doesn't remember who Peter Parker is now. Peter Parker is right. Yeah. Uh, we have this, uh, connection establishing now here. Um, Oh, who else was I thinking of? But it just, she, she, she, she, but I mean, amongst the young team. We know that they're, yeah. Kate Bishop is obviously easily pulled into this.

[00:35:15] Um, and we know that they're setting up probably they're calling it champions now instead of young Avengers because they're kind of getting a little old to be young Avengers, but. I wonder if he could end up being a mentor for this team because they keep connecting him to members of it. That would be awesome. Yeah. That would be awesome. And if anything to get more Kate Bishop in, in the Marvel universe, I love the whole guy. Absolutely. Series.

[00:35:44] That was awesome. Yeah. And I'd also with this episode, I just like, you know, like both of you were saying he, he uses his daredevil. You know, powers, but he's also using his lawyerly powers, you know? And, and I like showing that the two sides of the coin. Right.

[00:36:06] He's not, I think a lot of folks think that Matt is this brooding, you know, Batman type. Right. Who's always, you know, questioning himself, who's guilt ridden and all of these things, which is true. Right. Right. He has all of that, but there's also another side to the character.

[00:36:28] And I'm glad that they're willing to open up and show that other side of the character, how he does things, how he maneuvers, you know, away from the mask and what that means for him when he puts the mask back on. So I was really, you know, appreciative of that with this episode. Yeah, absolutely. Do you want to set up Matt's return to the suit? Yes.

[00:36:57] So the daredevil is reborn. While Matt and his girlfriend, psychologist Heather Glenn, grow closer, tension builds between them as Matt continues to hold back his secret identity. While Heather expresses her judgment of mass vigilantes and ask him to let her interview known clients of his, like the Punisher and daredevil himself.

[00:37:21] In the midst of all this, following his reunion with Frank Castle, Matt has started training as daredevil again. He just needs one more nudge to put back on the mask. So, yeah, Luke, what did you think of this whole journey?

[00:37:39] So apparently one of the reasons why they decided to rejigger things and do the first episode with, you know, where we they basically added the first episode that wasn't in the original version because they said it was going to take six episodes for him to put back on the suit. So it would have been the first time we saw him in the suit when he goes to fight muse. What did you think about that journey back to the suit, Luke? I mean, just binged it. Yeah, I mean, this is the thing.

[00:38:08] I think this is the difference between watching it week by week and binging it probably and where I lose something by binging it because I was kind of getting the point where can we can we get on with this now? I know where this is going. This is not Matt Murdock. This is not Matt Murdock. Attorney at law. Attorney at law. This is daredevil. So can we can we get on? Can we get on with this, please?

[00:38:36] Yeah, I thought I thought this was a this was a this was a good episode. Yeah, I mean, the thing is, I don't really like the relationship between Matt and the psychologist. And this is nothing to do with the chemistry between the actors. It's got nothing to do with anything. It's just Matt should clearly end up with Karen. But what about that? That is clearly what is supposed to happen. But what about that?

[00:39:05] We last saw Karen flirting with Frank. Yeah, mom. No, she's supposed to end up with Matt. That's just no. Yeah. What about Natasha? Robonav? What about Elektra? No, not the Elektra that we got. No, no, no, not that one. I'm just saying. Maybe there's a new Elektra from a new universe. There are fishes in the sea for Matt Murdock.

[00:39:33] There are, but he's supposed to end up with Karen. So, yeah, it's like that relationship feels fine. But it also feels like it's, and like all jokes aside, it does feel like it's a bit doomed from the start. So it feels like it's, it feels like maybe I'm being overly cynical, but I feel like I know where this is going. So it's not really.

[00:39:59] It seems like it's just marking time a little bit. Yeah. I mean, I would agree. I think like this, the shower scene they gave us is hot. Maybe if we had more of that, I would buy into the relationship a little more. But it's like they're setting up Heather to be the annoying presence in Matt's life. And I didn't like that she acted jealous of Karen. Like Karen's in another state not speaking to Matt. And they've been friends for like a decade. So. Yeah. Chill. I don't know.

[00:40:29] What do you think about all this show? Um. Yeah. I, I, I'm, I'm not too overly, you know, concerned with their relationship. I think it's, uh, it's not going to last. So I already know that much from just watching these episodes. Mm hmm. And, um, I never really bought into them in the first place. Mm hmm.

[00:40:58] Um, because I think I'm a little bit, uh, I'm a little bit, you know, jaded because, you know, I've read the comics where he does have definite, you know, partners in ways that, you know, Heather is not. Right. Right. And so, yeah, I just never thought that this was going to be, you know, the thing going

[00:41:23] forward with Matt and her, because there are so many other, um, stories to tell. And that's, you know, to my extreme, extreme bias towards those other stories. So I just don't get the Heather Matt relationship. And I doubt I ever will. So, and, um, they haven't sold me on it in order for me to forget about the ones that I do know of. Mm hmm. Yeah.

[00:41:52] And I think it's, you know, when you bring up other people who have been more partners for him and it's, it's true. Like you look at, um, Electra was, you know, also a superhero. Um, Karen was in the law firm with him. And it's funny because these, these are people who he, who he could team up with more about the things that he genuinely cares about. But Heather, I think is the one, the only one we've seen him like move in with and get super serious about in this way.

[00:42:22] Well, in the shows. Yes. Yeah. In the shows. Sure. Yeah, definitely. But you know, Black Widow, Electra, you know, Karen Page to an extent. They all have had, those are the stories that I'm talking about when I say that I know. Yeah. Um, but I just don't, that's why I haven't bought it. Natasha's dead. So it can't be Natasha. But Yelena is not. Yeah. She's a little young for him now. We don't know how old she is.

[00:42:52] In that red room. She's like in her twenties. I know how old the actress is. Yeah. We know how old the actress is. We don't know how old the character is. Okay. I mean, not to shame any age gaps, but. That red room, that red room situation. You know what I mean? It could have been decades. I don't know. I'm not, I'm not rooting for that one. I would rather see. No, I'm not rooting for it. I'm just saying. Yeah. I'd rather see him back as She-Hulk, but I think that was just.

[00:43:22] Oh, maybe. I didn't even say She-Hulk. Right. Yeah. So, you know, there are a lot more. I want to see him on a date with Madison. Oh, God. You and Madison. I love Madison. I'm so excited for her to come back. Okay. So, I realized after I wrote these recaps, I didn't even mention Kirsten and Cherry because they didn't really do much to drive the plot forward.

[00:43:49] We have Cherry wants to talk Matt out of putting the mask back on. And although he apparently used to call in Daredevil when he was a police officer himself. And Kirsten, I get the sense that she's probably starting to feel a little left out because she doesn't know the Daredevil thing. And Matt and Cherry are having all these secret conversations. And I don't know. What do you, what are your feelings on Matt and Cherry, Luke? Yeah. I mean, I would like to see more of Cherry as a character.

[00:44:19] I think he's an interesting, I think he's potentially a very interesting character. And at the moment, he feels a little bit underutilized. He's just there to communicate information to Matt Murdock when he needs it. So, if we get another episode in a bottle, I would like to know more about Cherry's backstory. You know, more about what he was doing as a cop.

[00:44:46] More about his, I mean, more about his life as a PI as well. Because I just, PIs are just interesting. I just, you could really do a really cool, like, noir-ish episode built around Cherry. Yeah. Oh, I would love that. Yeah. That would be cool. That would be really interesting. So, yeah, I hope that character gets a bit more development.

[00:45:11] Because at the moment, he just seems to be, like, just imparting information to Matt. And that was one of the things I liked about episode three was I felt like, Kirsten in particular in that one, that was where I was like, oh, I can see her being a cool character who plays off Matt well. But what do you think? How do you think that they've been developed or not? They haven't been developed. They haven't been developed. And that's a problem for me.

[00:45:37] That's my one complaint about the series, is that I don't understand why she agreed to form this practice with Matt. Mm-hmm. And I don't understand why he agreed to be their private investigator. Mm-hmm. Their Mr. Fix-It. Yeah.

[00:46:03] So their motivations, their reasons, I just don't get. Right? Because we haven't spent time with them to know who they are, how they view the world, what they see of the world. You get a little bit of it with Sherry in this last episode. But it's not enough for me to care about either one of those characters going forward. Yeah. So I don't know.

[00:46:30] Like, if the law firm crashed and burned in episode eight, would I miss it? No. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, like, for instance, you were talking earlier about, I forget the character's name, but the guy who got arrested for the Cracker Jack stuff. Oh, what was his name? Bradford, I think. Yeah. Maybe.

[00:46:51] But we didn't really get, like, much input from what is their perspective of Matt representing this person? What did they think about this case? What do they, do they know that Matt's going to the bank to get more loans? What do they think about, you know? And I don't want Sherry to be, because I said before, I felt like he was being slotted into Foggy's role of, like, Matt, don't fight.

[00:47:15] And that was, I love Foggy, but that was the most annoying thing about him is I don't, I need fewer nags in Matt's life. I don't even think he's set up to be the new Foggy in that way. I just think he's not set up at all. Yeah, I think this goes back. Sorry. No, don't go. Sorry. I think this goes back to what I was saying earlier. Like, in the Netflix show, you had that triumvirate of Foggy Matt and Karen.

[00:47:44] And the reason that worked was that, yes, the focus is on Matt Murdock, Daredevil, but the people around him are fully fleshed out characters with their own motivation and their own reasons for doing what they're doing. They're not just planets in Matt Murdock's orbit. Right. Yeah. Totally agree with that. Yeah. They just feel, they feel bland.

[00:48:15] Yeah. They feel bland. I don't think we're meant to have that feeling of those characters. No. I think we're meant to actually, you know, want to embrace them in some sort of way, but they've not done a good job of giving me reason to care. Yeah. And this is something that I'm especially interested to see if it changes in the last two episodes of the season with the new writing team and directing team on that. Oh, I'm fearful.

[00:48:44] You're fearful they're going to die? Yeah. Not that they're going to die, but that they're just not going to be like this big chunk of Matt's life is going to be done away with. Right. This last year, year and a half, however long it's been, it's just going to be, you know, totally dissolved. And they're just going to do like hard reset. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I hope they don't.

[00:49:09] I hope that they, I hope the fact that they kept this stuff with them, they're going to be weaving it together. I mean, yeah. Fingers crossed. I would love for them to, to, to, to keep them. So for Matt to have a thriving, you know. Yeah. Just, just write them. Company. Give them more. Yeah. Develop them. Yeah. Just develop them. I think the actors are up to it. We've seen, you know, that they have the presence and the line delivery. Just give them. Give them something. Juicier. To make us care about them.

[00:49:39] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sean, do you want to set up a, let's talk about Muse. Let's talk about Muse, baby. Yeah. Let's talk about Muse. Muse meets his maker. Wow. Dun, dun, dun. Hector Ayala's niece, Angela Del Toro, is the one who pushed Matt to investigate the truth of her uncle's death. And she's the one who pushes him to follow up on the disappearances her uncle was investigating.

[00:50:09] At the same time, a city worker tells Fisk that the political murals going up around town, signed Muse, are painted in blood. Muse even leaves the bodies of two of his victims who dare to ask for a selfie behind as part of his art. We see him carry others back to his underground lair and drain them of blood to use in his art. Until his last victim, Angela herself. Daredevil follows Muse to his underground lair and rescues Angela.

[00:50:38] But Muse escapes. It turns out Muse is Bastion Cooper, the troubled kid who asks Heather to take him on as a patient at her book tour in episode two. But now she's figured out that he's the artist serial killer everyone is looking for. Bastion attacks her, but Daredevil saves her. Just before Fisk's men bust in as well. And by Fisk's men, we mean the police.

[00:51:04] Fisk tells his team to claim the credit for killing Muse. But now he knows Matt is back to his daredevil ways and the truth is broken. Yeah. So, question. We know, obviously, Muse was, or Bastion, was into Heather because we saw him show up at her book talk, Live Without Fear, a guide to confronting trauma, and, you know, said, like, can I please become your patient? And so that makes sense.

[00:51:34] We later see that he's done all these portraits, apparently, of his victims, and he painted her as well because she's this therapist, presumably in the background this whole time. Do you think he knew or cared about her link to Daredevil? No. No. No. Yeah, no. Just a coincidence. Yeah. I saw there was a conversation.

[00:52:01] People were questioning, like, why is Heather everybody's therapist and dating Matt? We decided, and this is a Wheel of Time reference, she's Taviran. She's pulling the plot toward herself. But this is, yeah, so this is where I most felt the whole disjointed thing that I was talking about is in what happened with Muse's plotline. Like, I was really intrigued by this.

[00:52:29] And they seeded him, his presence at the start of the season. But I think, I don't know, we should have, like, and maybe they just didn't have time for it with trying to put multiple things together. But I feel like we should have had, we had the artwork in the background, but we should have had more of Bastion. Because then it was suddenly, like, oh, oh, that guy. I'm sure a lot of viewers didn't even remember that he approached her at her book talk. I didn't. Yeah.

[00:52:57] And then suddenly it's like, oh, it's her patient and he's attacking her. And I think that that's something that should have been seeded over the episodes. Like, just show or have her do montages with different patients and that was one of them or something like that. Or follow that story. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. It didn't really feel like there was much stakes to the whole thing. It did feel a little bit, it did feel a little bit disposable.

[00:53:29] I mean, it's nice to have Daredevil back. It's nice to have Matt Murdock doing what Matt Murdock does. And I think one of the things that really stood out to me about the original Netflix show, and I think one of the things that's carried on into this show is the fight choreography is really, really good. I mean, yes.

[00:53:53] It's particularly in that Netflix show, it was like watching like really high class ballet or dance. It was really good. But some of the best fight choreography I've seen on TV or I've seen outside of movies, and there was a real sort of physicality to the action, which I very much appreciate. And I think that is carried forward into this version of the show.

[00:54:24] I don't know whether they have the same stunt coordinators working on it, but it felt like they did. Yeah, I do feel like it's been especially strong, like that parallel fight and Matt's fight with Muse. Although I have to say the Muse stunt double has a drastically different physique than Sebastian, but whatever. You like hooked up. I'm like, what's going on? Did he get angry? What just happened here? I'm like, whoa.

[00:54:55] What happened? But to Luke's point, the fight choreography is really, really, really good. And I think they said that this guy was like a Taekwondo master or something of the sort. And how Matt was just basically kicking his ass in both of those encounters that they had.

[00:55:20] And it shows just how good of a fighter Daredevil Matt Murdock is. Yeah. Like, if you needed to be reminded, like, hand to hand, he's one of the best in Marvel. He's just one of the best fighters, period. Without powers, without, you know, super strength or something like that, he will kick your ass.

[00:55:44] There are not many people in Marvel Comics, Marvel properties that could probably take him on a one-on-one fight. And that was, it's really cool to watch him in action. It really is. It makes me smile. My favorite fight, though, remains the apartment fight from earlier in the season. Yes. Oh, yeah. That was great, too. Really? I'm not saying it's not great, though. No, yeah. But what's your favorite? What's your favorite of the season? Oh, my favorite. Ooh, that's tough.

[00:56:14] That's tough. Is yours also apartment, Luke? Or do you have another favorite? No, I think it might, I think it might, I think it might be the apartment one. Because, yeah, I just, also the sound design. I'm sorry, did I get really technical? The sound design. No, please do. That fight is amazing. Mm-hmm. It's like a bing, pal. Yeah. It's like slamming him into stuff with his glass plate. I do, yeah, I do like that they frequently fade away the music for the fights. Like, I've noticed that's been something that happened more than once.

[00:56:42] I think that also happened in the heist episode in the fight in the stairwell. Yeah. Yeah. And just to, like, let the sound design shine. And also just the repeated motif where he's listening in while he's fighting on people's heartbeats on what's going on in other rooms. You know. I think my favorite fight was the very first one. Okay. As I think about it. With Bullseye. With Bullseye. Okay. Yeah.

[00:57:09] I think that whole, not just parts of it, but the entire thing, the totality of it, I think that was my favorite. Okay. Because it really showed him. I would need to go back and watch that again. I've watched it again, Lewis. I'm not going to lie to you. I've watched it a few times. I wonder if that one should be on YouTube. I've watched that a few times, you know, but I think that's my, I think that would be my favorite. The apartment is probably number two.

[00:57:41] And Muses Hideout, along with Fisk versus Adam, would be number three. Yeah. I remember watching a behind the scenes thing for the Netflix series. And I don't know for a fact that it's the same for the Disney one, although I imagine it probably is. It was impressive how much of that was, how much of those scenes were Charlie Cox as well. Yeah. Yeah. The apartment fight must have been because he wasn't even wearing a mask. So that must have been him a lot. Yeah.

[00:58:11] Yeah. I like when an actor commits to the role like that in Jones. Oh, Iron Fist. You know, let me just put this out there. I saw Finn Jones say, give him a chance. He was apologetic. The man was asking the Marvel Universe to say, hey man, I know y'all didn't like me, but give me a chance. I could do better. Okay.

[00:58:39] I am a human of second chances. I'm open. I'm open. I felt Finn Jones in that moment. I felt him. I'm like, all right, bro. Like, like I said, I think that being a little bit of like a whiny white guy fits with the character, but the, the, he just didn't sell Iron Fist being one of the best martial artists in the universe. And that's where he could improve.

[00:59:04] But I would totally, like I said, I want the entire cast from Netflix back, including Finn Jones, but keep Colleen Wing as the Iron Fist. Yes. That would be, that would be fine. Yeah. That would be fine. And in his defense, I think Danny Rand always works better with Luke Cage to bounce off each other. Yeah. And that was some of the best stuff was when they were together a few times in Defenders and in Luke Cage.

[00:59:34] So I, I, I heard you Finn Jones. If you could be in Secret Wars and get, you know, get a role, get outed, go ahead. I'm okay with it. I'm okay with it. And Sean, what did you think about the use of Muse in the show? Um, yeah, just like you, the both of you said, I just don't think it was, he wasn't the, he's

[01:00:03] not the big bad. And I went into it thinking that he was going to be the big bad. Um, and if he wasn't, he was going to be close to what Fisk was. Right. And he wasn't, he just, it was, I never felt like the, the only time I really felt him as a third inning figure was when he had Angela. Mm-hmm. That's the only time. Right.

[01:00:30] And whenever they spoke about him, whenever they pictured him or whatever, I just never got that vibe. But when he, you know, was walking with her over his shoulder, I was like, oh shit. Okay. This is, this is something now. Um, I thought they could have done a whole lot more to bring that sort of terror to the city. Um, so if you have a serial killer out here, who's, you know, 60%. Plus victims, the city would be on fire. Um, you know what I mean?

[01:00:56] Like people would be nervous, especially people who are being abducted. Um, we didn't get a good sense of that at all. Um, the marginalized people that he was obviously targeting that white tiger was trying to, to put a stop to, we never got a sense of what that meant to them. Um, so there was a lot with Muse that I just questioned why he was the, the villain.

[01:01:22] And, and why, um, we didn't get, you know, a bigger story from him because this demands a bigger story, right? Just the nature of what he's doing demands more attention from the city as a whole. And we don't get a sense of that. We don't, you know, I, I was watching the episode and I thought about the summer of Sam that Spike Lee did.

[01:01:47] And, and that you could just feel in the air how people were just afraid. Right. Never got that. Never got that. Like you should. I think that's because the whole thing is set up and resolved much too quickly for that sense of fear intention to build. There's no, there's no, there's no time for the plot to breathe.

[01:02:16] And I think it's that sort of goes back to my earlier point. If Fisk is too, Fisk as a villain is too present. It's like nothing else can grow in the shadow of tall trees. He's like, there is the big bad of the series. And that the whole plot line with him as mayor seems to be like crowding everything else out a little bit. I would be okay with that though. I think I would be, I'm okay with that.

[01:02:44] Don't shoehorn in this other, this other plot. Don't shoehorn in this other person because you're not doing justice to that character. I think your question of Fisk being on screen and too big of a presence, that, that to me is the tension in the, in the story for this season is that Fisk is way out.

[01:03:09] He is the face of, you know, everything that Matt detests. And Matt cannot get away from him. Like he's not in the background. He is upfront staring Matt in the face every day. And what does that toll? What does that mean to, to Matt Murdoch, to daredevil, to know that this, you know, criminal

[01:03:31] murderer that he put away is now beloved in a way that his character, in a way that daredevil has never been beloved. Right. What does that do to him? And I think it's a very, um, for me, I, I appreciate that part of the show putting Fisk out there on front street, but Muse, you know, deserved better as a villain.

[01:04:00] He just deserves better as a villain. And we didn't get the villain that we were promised. Yeah. I mean, I wish they'd saved Muse for season two or something, you know, but I guess it was, they were just trying to shuffle and salvage as much, but that's possible. And that's where I felt, yeah. Yeah. The, the, the choppiness. But, um, I, I do think that the final villain, I won.

[01:04:26] And I keep thinking they're going to bring back bullseye in the end. That's one of my predictions for the last two episodes is that they'll bring back bullseye because they set them up in episode one. And I think that that's just, yeah, they're going to, that's what I think. And I wonder if bullseye might be, it might be another situation where there, it forces an uneasy truce between Fisk and Matt. Yeah, I could see that.

[01:04:55] I could see that happening. Kind of Chekhov's gunman going on there. Question for you guys. It's another topic slightly. Heather heard Daredevil call her by her name. Do you think she's later going to recognize the voice? Is his spot about to blow up at home? Yes. I really hope not. That is so hard. That is so hackneyed. That is so hackneyed. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:05:24] And that's going to lead to them splitting up. Yeah. I hope they just break up and she doesn't die. That's my hope. Well, I said she was going to go from the first episode. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I was like, yeah, she's gone. She's gone. She's in between Vanessa and Fisk and she's dating Matt. Like, nah, she cannot survive. No way she survives.

[01:05:49] To Luke's point, I'm not necessarily like a Matt and Karen Endgame shipper, but just they teased us with that chemistry in the first episode. And I just don't feel like that spark is there as much with him and Heather. Just even that casual, like, should we go home? No. We said that that's against the rules. Like, okay. You know, there was more spark in that than this shower sex scene for me. Yeah.

[01:06:16] I don't buy them together. Yeah. All right. All right. Any more thoughts about Muse and the decline of Muse? No. There's unfortunately not much more to say other than the art. Again, quite cool. Yes. If he didn't murder people to make it, I would be totally pro Muse.

[01:06:42] Oh, I did laugh at the guy from the sanitation department trying to explain everything. That was funny. Get to the point. No, the other point. That was funny. That made me ask myself, like, you said, like, this is, Luke said earlier, that it's so close to our reality now, right? With what we're witnessing in the States. Yeah.

[01:07:11] And I, you know, I watched that sanitation man talk about, yes, sir, I voted for you, blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, yeah, that's the problem, dude. Like, you're the issue. Like, you are the issue. Mr. Sanitation man who's voting for the criminal mastermind murderous psychopath. You are the issue. And we're like, get to the point and get out of the room. Like, I'm so done with them.

[01:07:41] Like, beat it. Get out of here. Bring back the children's choir. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I did think it was really funny there. I'm like, trying to explain the various chemicals and the epoxy. Yeah. The epoxy. Fisk is like, do I look like I care? I'm like, get out of the room. Get this. Just beat it, guy. Get out of here. You problematic sanitation man. Get out of here. Voted for Wilson Fisk. Like, how could you? All right.

[01:08:10] Speaking of Fisk, on that note, let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about Luke's favorite side of the story, all about Fisk. Fisk is going to Fisk.

[01:08:40] Wilson Fisk has been a very busy boy himself. He and Vanessa also continue their therapy with Heather Glenn. They confront Vanessa's fidelity with a man named Adam and seem to be growing closer again. Although we later find out that Fisk is keeping Adam in his basement and torturing him. Meanwhile, Luca, the tracksuit minion who defied the Fisk family orders not to cause trouble in Red Hook, is upset that he's being fired $1.8 million for the murders.

[01:09:08] But when he talks shit to Vanessa to Fisk, Fisk says add another million for that mouth. Luca then runs to Vanessa to ask her to betray Fisk and return to their criminal. Vanessa seems to comply, sending Luca to betray her husband. Who is waiting for him? Buck takes out Luca before he can even touch Fisk. Yeah, so I did.

[01:09:36] We already called out the parallel fight, Fisk and Adam, Matt and Muse. But we didn't really touch much on the Fisk and Adam side. And just how? How self is that? Fuck it, Wilson Fisk. He throws Adam the axe. He knows it's not going to help him. He knows he's going to win and beat the crap out of him. But I guess it makes Fisk feel better about it to toss Adam the axe. Axe? Man, listen.

[01:10:07] Adam done fucked up. You know what I'm saying? Done fucked up. That man is... Yo. Whenever Vanessa was like, yo, what's up? Adam should have said, no thank you. I'm out. Let me go over there because I don't want to be over here. Because now you... When she says... Was it episode one or two? When she looks at him and says, please don't kill him. Just don't kill him. Yeah. Right?

[01:10:37] And I immediately felt like he was going to kill him. Mm-hmm. Right? I was like, yeah, he's going to kill him. He's going to kill him. This is so much worse. Mm-hmm. This is so much worse. Like he's literally playing with his food. Like he's eating in front of him. We were wondering what happened to his knuckles that he kept, you know, when he was washing his hands and his knuckles were all bruised and cut up. Now we know. He's been beating the shit out of Adam for the last, I don't know, six episodes.

[01:11:08] This guy is demented. He is keeping this man in a cell, eating, you know, wonderful meals in front of him. Mm-hmm. Opening in the cell and then beating his ass. Mm-hmm. Then locking him back up again. What the hell? Like just kill him and be done with it. Dump his body. But for him, it's like, I told Vanessa I won't kill him. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's true.

[01:11:37] So he thinks that he's like, I'm doing the right thing. I'm a good guy. Yeah, I'm not going to kill him. I told Vanessa I wouldn't kill him. No, I won't kill him. But God damn it. You're going to feel these hands, bro. You're going to get these hands. And oh my gosh, just watching this guy behind the cell, just knowing like I have no shot. I have no chance. How do I get out of here?

[01:12:01] The things that must be going through his mind, like man, that was like devastating. That was devastating. Question. So Heather privately asked Vanessa if she feels safe around Fisk and Fisk kind of guessed it later. He was like, you know, a good therapist would. And he seemed to take it surprisingly well. But he also seemed to take Adam surprisingly well. Do you think Heather is in danger from Fisk?

[01:12:31] No. Because Vanessa would know it was him. Hmm. I'm not so sure. I think possibly. But if he does do anything against her, it will look like an accident. Because he's too high. She's. He's too high a profile. And she's got the link to Matt Murdock. So she's not just going to disappear.

[01:13:00] So I could see her getting hit by a bus. And it will look like she gets hit by a bus. But we know that she's not really been hit by a bus. Hey, wasn't that what Kildare did in season one with Luke Cage's wife? Yeah, that's true. He made. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:13:22] Also, you do just realize just how big of a dude Vincent D'Onofrio is in that fighting. Yeah. That is one big guy. Yeah. And again, not to belabor the point, but the physicality of the fight scenes is really impressive. Is really impressive.

[01:13:46] And I think everything you need to know about Alex and Fisk is when he goes, Fisk, let me out. It's me, Fisk. Yeah. Oh. You petty little. Oh, that guy's demented, man. He's demented. He's demented. Although I don't like Luca. So I did think it was funny when Luca went to Fisk.

[01:14:15] And well, first of all, it is just to point out that diamond that was being stolen was coincidentally also worth 1.8 million. So he's trying to get stolen to pay this thing. But it was funny when he went to Fisk. I was rooting Fisk on when he was like, you know what? Add another million. Talk about my wife again and see how high we go. But I was wondering if either of you two could answer a question. Because I wasn't clear about this.

[01:14:44] Where is the cage with Alex? Because it can't be in, like, the mayor's residence. Adam, yeah. Vanessa might find it. It was way down somewhere. So, yeah. Yeah. Somewhere underground. I don't know. I don't think they've revealed exactly where it is. We just seem going down an elevator. Okay. Yeah.

[01:15:08] So, and we know, like, my thought was that it's somewhere in Red Hook for some reason. Yeah. Because they keep referencing that area. Yeah. So that's been my thought. Yeah. So this is, we know he's setting up that port project there. He brought that whole model out to the bank to show what he wants. And obviously that's also why they were mad at Luca for doing the murder there, you know, because they're trying to clean up that area.

[01:15:37] I'm wondering where that port project's going. Because it feels like there's, yeah, setting something up. I don't know. I don't know if it could even be something with further reaching. I mean, I don't think it's going to be something resolved this season. Maybe something for next season or maybe even something that might tie into other Marvel stuff. Right. Right. Yeah. So, we're not on that.

[01:16:01] I did think, speaking of tying into other Marvel properties, it was, we got a fun cameo also at the fundraiser campaign from Jack Duquesne, who, aka the swordsman. And we last saw him. He was with, you know, the new Hawkeye's mother. He was dating her in Hawkeye. Oh, yeah. The guy in Hawkeye that you were convinced was a villain, but he's actually just a gigantic douche. He turned out to be a pretty nice guy in the end.

[01:16:31] Didn't they have, they showed a video of him in the park? Yeah. He was doing. Helping someone. Yeah. He was doing some vigilante stuff himself. So, I like him. I was glad to see him show up here and I wouldn't mind to see more. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Another tie-in, you know, like you were mentioning earlier, to the younger, you know, set of heroes. Yeah, exactly. That's what's becoming. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I like Kate Bishop.

[01:16:57] So, I would love to see, I would love to see actually Matt Murdock as like a reluctant mentor to the younger generation. I wouldn't want Matt to be a mentor. No? He's not ready for that. I mean, he kind of already is. He's not ready for that. Give him a purpose. Better him than Frank. Oh, God. I mean, out of, as I say, out of any of the defenders, you know, from the Netflix side, I think he would be the best mentor except Luke, probably.

[01:17:28] I think it would have to be Luke. Yeah, I think Luke Cage would be the best and Matt the second best. I think it would have to be Luke. Yeah. Every time you say Kate Bishop, I just hear that as Florence Pugh playing you like that. Kate Bishop. It's just, it has to be done in that. They were really good in that. They were really good in that. Yeah, they were really, really good. Yeah. Yeah, that was great. The whole macaroni and cheese thing. Yeah. It was also, I was in that conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:17:58] Macaroni and cheese and hot sauce is my thing. Yeah. Yeah. So we also have, you know, we talked about the, the, Jean, you were saying it's, it was Fisk sent in a, he basically kind of owns this part of the cops called the anti-vigilante task force or the AVTF. And these are all the people who like to play Punisher, even though Punisher would totally kill them.

[01:18:25] And I hope, kind of hope maybe next season he will or something, or maybe later this season. Right. But we have part of that. We have Connor Powell is the one who we saw Matt beat up in that apartment fight, who, you know, um, was one of the ones who, uh, got Hector Ayala in jail anyway. And then they also keep zooming in on this other guy, Cole North. And that was the, the black guy with the gray eyes.

[01:18:53] And they just, I had to look up his name. I don't even think they said it, but the camera spends so much time on him. That I feel like he's important. And I'm wondering, could he have been the one who killed white tiger? I mean, it's possible because he has a, at least in the comics, he has like a, a history with daredevil, you know, and he, he's one. Who just really hates vigilantes.

[01:19:19] But I don't get that sense in this series that that's right. So far. That's what I mean. I haven't gotten the sense that he hates vigilantes. Right. He's part of this task force. I know, but it is just him talking with Fisk. It didn't seem to me like he was like a enthusiastic gun hole, you know, hoorah type of guy with what Fisk is doing.

[01:19:47] So I'm wondering where they're taking his story. Okay. Yeah. Do you have thoughts about the task force, Luke? That we have more jackboots. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a means to an end for Fisk. I think it's, it's kind of, it's. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's just, there is a means to an end, a means to an end for Fisk.

[01:20:11] I do like the kind of, again, it goes back to the conversation between Matt Murdock and Frank Castle. There's kind of the procedural element of the law versus justice. Just because like Fisk keeps hammering away at, you know, who are these people? There's no, you know, there's no due process. There's no, and you know that Fisk doesn't really care about that. Right. Right. But, but it's kind of, it's an interesting way.

[01:20:41] It's an interesting way of him trying to like justify what he's trying to, what he's trying to do. Right. Um, yeah. I don't really have any thoughts beyond that. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say just look for parallels in the real world. Um, but I, I, okay. So the last thing I had to bring up here was, uh, Daniel Blake, the Gandolfini junior.

[01:21:04] Um, he, first we saw him drunkenly leaking details to BB who do you think BB took him out to get him drunk so that he would tell her stuff? I don't know. Like I, this left me a little bit confused about her. Yeah. So I'm hoping I get some answers about her because at first I thought she was, you know, doing what she's doing because of the murder of her, of Ben. Right. Uh-huh.

[01:21:33] But now I, I left this last episode thinking that I don't know if she knows if she's as knowledgeable as I thought she was. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm worried about her and where she's standing morally. Yeah. Cause first of all, okay. So we see she kind of, whatever, whether or not she intended to pump her quote unquote friend, because I guess they're supposed to be friends if, if they're like hanging out. Right.

[01:22:03] She was using him for details and I'm kind of like iffy on that, but she does say he reported that Fisk is a union buster. And then to Daniel's credit, he takes the blame when Fisk is like, who did this? And even though, you know, he's being told, don't do that. Don't do that. He's like, you know what? I did it. And it actually proves himself loyal and it ends up in his favor. Working in his favor. Yeah.

[01:22:25] But then, and then later when we next see his next interaction with BB, he's like, the power has shifted. And now he's the one who's convincing her to remove mentions of daredevils involvement in the whole muse thing from her blog. And she seems to be agreeing to that to caving to the vague threats. Right. So I don't know. I'm left with questions about her. Hmm.

[01:22:54] What do you think of BB, Luke? This feels like a storyline that there seems to be some scenes missing, like between, between the bit in the club, the bit in the mayor's office and the bit in the last episode. Where, like you say, the power dynamic shifts. It feels like there ought to be more connective tissue between these three things. And again, I think this comes back to the issue you've raised before.

[01:23:22] Or at least the pacing of this seems a little bit off. It seems to like skip, um, it seems like skip story beats. And it feels like it's a bit, I want to know how we got from point A to point B to point C. Right. A little bit more, a little bit more than we do. See, okay. With hers is one story where I don't feel that as much, but, um, I do wonder what they're setting up with her.

[01:23:51] And I don't, I don't know. I just, I think because of who her grandfather was, who was an important character in the, you know, original series. Um, I don't want her to fall to the bad side or whatever, you know, like, I feel like I'm protecting her grandfather's legacy. Or is it her uncle's legacy? Sorry. I think it was her uncle. Uncle. Yeah. I think you're right. I think you're right. Um, I do wonder though.

[01:24:19] So we had Buck who is obviously a henchman of Fisk's. Who's the one who takes out Luca. Um, and then we have now Daniel, who's like trying to kiss his ass up to the top. Uh, I, it seems like they're setting up eventual strife between the two of them. Yeah. I don't know about that because Buck is, is, uh, yeah, he's, he's not a, political person. Right.

[01:24:49] And I think Daniel is, and I think for Daniel to replace Buck, he would have to do the things that Buck is doing like shooting people point blank. Is he ready for that? Right. Is he ready for that part? I don't know. I don't think he's going to replace him. I think that he, but they might have it different interests that clash. Hmm. I don't know.

[01:25:14] I think they both want to see Fisk succeed, but in their own, you know, realms. And I mean, this is the thing. I think if there were tension between the two of them, they're just so blatantly mismatched, you know, Buck who just walk up to Daniel and shoot him in the head, you know, no fuss, no fuss, no muss. Like, I think Fisk would clean it up. He'd be mad. He'd be like, Buck, why did you have to do that? Yeah, it's like you're saying, John.

[01:25:44] It's like the two of them. I see where you're coming from, Alicia, but it just seems like in terms of skill sets, the two characters, this is not. I'm not saying that one's going to replace the other. I'm just saying that they might clash. Yeah. I go back to coverage solo. I don't think this is Bernard and Sims because I think if it ever came to a clash, Buck would

[01:26:13] just, you know, marmalize. But okay. So to say it in silo terms, it's like Buck is like Sims and what's his face? Sorry, Daniel is like Lucas. Yeah, a little bit. But then it's not that I'm not saying that Buck wants, you know, to be on the political side. I'm not sure. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[01:26:42] Maybe. Do you guys have any more thoughts on the season so far? Or what are your hopes for the last two episodes of the season? Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, Carleen Wing, Misty Knight, and I guess, you know, Danny Rand. I guess Danny Rand. Oh, come on then.

[01:27:11] You just said you heard him. I said, I guess. I said, I guess. I guess Danny Rand. But yeah, I would love to see, you know, that type of formulation. Let's get these characters back on screen together. That's what I want to see. Yeah. We have Justin Benson and Aaron Moorhead directing. They are the like new head directors of the show. They did the first episode and they've done, you know, a lot of the helping with the rearranging in between.

[01:27:40] And now the last two episodes. And I just want to point out. So showrunner Dario Scardapane is back to co-writing. He co-wrote the last two episodes. But the person he co-wrote episode eight with is Jesse Wogatow, who wrote the Frank Castle episode that we just talked about. So my fingers are crossed if Frank Castle at least shows up for that.

[01:28:04] But I'm expecting that they'll tie back to the story they set up in episode one. I'm thinking maybe we get Karen back. I'm thinking maybe we get Bullseye breaking out of jail or doing something to pop back up. And then maybe that's why they got Muse out of there. Okay. Okay. Please, can we get Karen back? I am dying for some Karen and Matt action. And not like that.

[01:28:34] Well, not necessarily like that either. Just banter, yeah. Just banter, yeah. So yeah, I'm definitely hoping that Karen comes back. I'm hoping against hope that somehow Foggy comes back. Because I'm not expecting it, but I'm hoping against hope. I would like to know more about what you were describing earlier, Alicia, the project in Red Hook. What's all that about? Where is that going?

[01:29:06] Dinner party with the cons? Dinner party with the cons? That would be fun. That would be a cool Marvel after the credits scene. Yeah. Yeah. And while I've got the opportunity, I just wanted to say that Daredevil is probably my favorite Marvel character. Okay, wow.

[01:29:32] And, you know, to be honest about it, a lot of that is wish for film. And I don't think I'm alone in this when I say that, you know, obviously I'm not blind, but as a disabled person, there's always that fantasy of being able to transcend whatever your disability is. Not for it to go away, but for it not to matter in some way.

[01:29:57] And frankly, there is something very satisfying about a character with a disability being able to turn the able-bodied into a sticky pool. There is a lot of wish for film going on there. And it's not a universal thing, obviously, but I know I'm not alone in that either. Yeah. Well said. So we got some feedback from the community as well.

[01:30:25] And I was saying to Jean before, we've had some really lovely, lively conversation on the Discord. I didn't have time to go through. Yeah, it's popping on the Discord. Yeah, it's popping on the Discord. So do come in and check that out. You'll find that link in the link tree in the show notes. But we got two emails. Do you want to read the first one, Jean, from B. Lisa? Sure. B. Lisa writes, Hi, Lorehounds.

[01:30:48] Two weeks ago, I would have told you I was very, very excited for Daredevil Born Again and also looking forward to season three of The Wheel of Time. But now I'm finding I'm enjoying Wheel of Time much more than Daredevil, even though the Netflix Daredevil show is some of my all-time favorite TV. I think the problem is expectations. I've rewatched the Netflix Defender shows multiple times and Daredevil most of all, and I continue to enjoy it each time.

[01:31:18] Maybe I was misled. I expected more Foggy and Karen. And while I guess I understand killing off Foggy as a plot point, I have to say, if we don't get more Karen Pace this season, I will feel like they lied to me. Hear, hear. Hear, hear. Turn page or we riot. Yes. I really thought they did a big rewrite after the first episodes were originally shot.

[01:31:47] But now it really seems like they added the scenes at the beginning and that said, time jump. And use mostly the plot points from what they originally shot. I'm not finding Matt's new colleagues nearly as interesting as Foggy and Karen. And I wasn't expecting Fisker's relationship with Vanessa to have cooled down the way it seems to have. It seems to have. Your podcast on episode three helped me bring up my opinion.

[01:32:13] You pointed out things I hadn't appreciated about episode three and helped me better appreciate the things I already had noticed as positive elements. So thank you. I really want to enjoy this show. Well, that's very nice. Thank you for saying that we helped shine a wonderful ray of sunshine on your viewing of this season of Daredevil. But I agree with some of the things that she said. Yeah. That they said. Excuse me. I really do.

[01:32:44] Yeah. I think a lot of what she's saying jibes with what we've been saying. And I hope, you know, I think we've been fair on this where we're enjoying it. But there's some rough patches that I hope they iron out. And I'm also, I've been listening to interviews that they've been giving and they've also been, they're filming now season two. And it sounds like things really get taken up a notch in season two. So I'm looking forward to that.

[01:33:13] And I'm looking forward to seeing how they set that up in these last two episodes. Yeah. You read NW because I'm not doing the accent that I know you're going to do. I can't do it. I am not good at doing accents. But Ken W says, Daredevil on the rocky road to Dublin. Love it. St. Patrick's Day and so, so many Easter eggs. And Daredevil is back. Reborn, if you must. Last crack and double episode drop. So, yeah, that was obviously the first one.

[01:33:42] So, yeah, thank you, Ken W. And let us know how you say Donegal. Luke, any thoughts to add? No. I've really enjoyed being on the podcast with you guys. So thanks for inviting me on. This was great, Luke. Thank you for joining us. Yeah, this was great. This was fun. Hope to have you back. Yeah. Yeah, we'll be back after the finale to talk about the last two episodes. If you want to join for that, Luke. Yeah, absolutely. That would be great. That's awesome.

[01:34:11] And do check out. We also put out during this season, the recap of the entire season of your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, which Jean and I both highly enjoyed. Yes. So check that out as well in the feed. And we've got more Marvel content coming your way. We are planning around the deluge of TV shows this spring, so we'll keep you updated. But there is eventually going to be that Sony Spider-Villainverse funeral on Supercast and Patreon.

[01:34:37] And we've got other things that we've been talking about the previous episodes. So that's all still coming. We will definitely be doing Thunderbolts shortly after. Yeah. It's already. The second it drops. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. It's coming up fast. We were talking on the Discord. I am loving the Thunderbolts marketing. Like, they're targeting me with this. Absolutely.

[01:35:04] The rollout is so much better for this movie than that other movie. I wonder if it's because... I hope this is a signal that it's because they have more faith in it. Because, yeah. Well, see our review of the last movie. Jean and I were both kind of meh on it. Yeah. Did you watch the Captain America 4, Luke? No. I'm going to wait until it comes out on Disney+. Yeah. That's fair. Wow.

[01:35:33] Also, right now, Wheel of Time coverage is ongoing. So there is also extra lore casts every week. And that goes out to all Supercast and Patreon subscribers. But there's also a separate season pass for those who only want the extra Wheel of Time content. And you'll find that in the link tree in the show notes. And this episode will be on the public feed. But, Jean, you're going to join after Episode 7. We're going to do a non-book reader check-in about the Wheel of Time. That should be fun. Yeah.

[01:36:02] Looking forward to it. And also, yeah. Gearing up on the network for full coverage of The Last of Us, which Jean and David are going to lead. And Andor is going to... We're going to be dividing it up with everyone. Because it's... They're doing the drop schedule from hell. Yeah. I'm sure... I'm certain they devised that drop schedule to torture podcasters. I mean... Yes. Can somebody think of the content creators, please? I mean, I'm also the person who complains when they...

[01:36:32] Like, for instance, they did that with Invincible. And I still haven't caught up because of... Or, sorry. Great season. Great season of Invincible. Yeah. But, yeah. I haven't caught up because of... Of everything else. Yeah. And just when you... If you have one episode a week, it's just easier. I don't know. Yeah. And even they started the Wheel of Time like that anyway. Now I'm just bitching about Prime and this is...

[01:37:01] And it's actually... It's Apple that's doing, obviously. Andor. But, yeah. And we're also going to be doing Doctor Who with a new voice. It's a new British voice. So, subscribers. Last month's 11z's is out. It was Scott Pilgrim versus Zoolander. Did you get to listen to that one yet, Jean? I have not. Okay. Because I was very disappointed. In David's receiving of... No. Because of the false count.

[01:37:30] It was a false count. That's all I know. No one can tell me different. Zoolander should have won outright? Outright should have won. Yes. Yes. It was a false count. Well, this month, if people want to make sure there's no false counts for this month, the vote is currently open to subscribers. And for the April 11z's, it's 2024 faves we missed. And A Real Pain is currently in the lead over Better Man and Kneecap.

[01:38:00] So, but a few votes could turn the tides. Do check out the link tree for all the affiliates. Nevermind the music. Radioactive ramblings. We'll shift dust. The Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast. Rings and Rituals and Properly Howard. And of course, we'll shift dust. That is mostly Luke and I. And Luke, you also have another podcast. It could be said. How's that going? Yeah. So we recorded an episode this week. It was, it dropped actually this morning.

[01:38:29] Me and my friends Simon and Will from uni. We taught all things British politics, sport, culture, anything else that pops in Akabasa, basically. This week's episode was about Rachel Reeves, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and her spring statement mini budget thing. And her proposed reforms to social security benefits.

[01:38:56] Needless to say, none of us, none of us were a fan of any of it. So if you want, if you want to listen to three grown men bitch for an hour and a half. Count me in. I'm in. Yeah. Um, yeah. And we look forward to having you back for the Daredevil finale. And we want to hear more people's thoughts as well. Uh, do send your email, email your thoughts.

[01:39:22] That's the best way to make sure that we make sure they're included to MCU at the lorehounds.com. Although we definitely also want to hear from you on the Marvel forum under current shows on the discord. So follow the link in the link tree to the discord under current shows. There's a Marvel thing. And then under the Marvel forum, there is a chat for Daredevil. Plus of course, a bunch of other Marvel stuff and everything else we're covering and beyond.

[01:39:50] Any final thoughts before I do the reading of the names? Nah, no, we're good. Let's do it. All right. All right. So this time I'm pulling from the rhythmic folder again. This one's new. Okay. It's called Viva. So I'm expecting, I haven't listened to it at all, but I'm, I'm hoping we're getting a bit of a Latin flavor here. I mean, you know, you got the standards cause you've, you've been on a roll. Yeah. We're on a roll with these. Trying new things. All right. Let's go. Let's see.

[01:40:20] So thank you to our discord server boosters, Aaron K, Tiller, the thriller, dork of the ninjas, doof71, Athena, Adjalea, Tina, Lestu, Nancy M, Ghost of Perdition and Radioactive Richard. And thank you to, thank you to everyone listening. Just your listening already makes a huge difference. Thank you, especially to our Lorehounds subscribers. And thank you most of all to our highest tier of subscribers, the Loremasters, who always get a shout out.

[01:40:48] And that is Samarshan, Michael G, Michelle E, Brian P, SC, Peter O.H., Bettina W, Adam S, Nancy M, Doob71, Brian8063, Frederick H, Sarah L, Gareth C, Matthew M, Sarah M, DJ Miwa, Andra B, Kwong Yu, Dead Eye Jedi Bob, Nathan T, Alex B, Sub Zero, Aaron K, Tally V, Mothership61, Narls, Kathy W, Lestu, Jeffrey, Elisa U,

[01:41:15] Neil F, Ben B, Scott F, Stephen N, Julia F, Kali S, Ilmariel, and always last, Adriam. That was nice! That was nice! I liked that. It was very chill. Yeah, that was kind of like an island vibe, I feel like. I don't know. Was that a flute in the background? Some like pan flute or something? Yeah, yeah, something. I like cowbells or something. More cowbells! I need more of that.

[01:41:45] More of those little flutes, I like it. That was nice, that was nice. Good choice. More cowbell and bring back Karen Page. Any other last thoughts? Yeah, I got something to say to Feige. Okay. Feige. I listen to Finn Jones. You can bring him back, man. All right, all right. And we're bringing back Luke also next time. Thank you, Luke. Thank you, Luke. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Luke.

[01:42:15] The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. The Wheel of Time.

[01:42:43] The Wheel of Time turns and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. In one podcast called the Lorehounds by some. In one podcast called The Lorehounds by some, a weekly recap with tons of analysis, two Wheel of Time superfans will lead you through a world of powerful magic, tricky prophecies, and cutthroat politics. Join me, John, and my co-host, Alicia, for weekly coverage of season three by searching your podcast app for the Lorehounds. Dovyeandi se tovas again. It's time to roll the dice.