Daredevil: Born Again S1-E8&9 – Isle of Joy & Straight to Hell (MCUniverse)

[00:00:01] Hey Mark, I was listening to Paramore the other day and it really made me think about the amygdala and the limbic system. You just made those words up, didn't you? What, Paramore? We're the Nevermind the Music Podcast, where one musician and one psychologist talk songwriting and the mind, one song at a time. We'll hear everything from Green Day and OutKast to Stevie Wonder and Dua Lipa. And we mostly try to stay on topic. Except for when we don't want to. Nevermind the Music, wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:00:27] Hello listeners without fear.

[00:00:56] This is Comics vs. A Lorehounds Podcast, and it's time to talk about the last two episodes of Daredevil Born Again Season 1. I'm Alicia here with Jean, our comics expert and my partner in all discussions MCU. Do check out our breakdowns of the two episode premiere, our special episode three deep dive into Matt's peak lawyer moments and the legacy of White Tiger actor Kamar de los Reyes, RIP.

[00:01:23] Jean, what do you think about the last two episodes in one sentence? Uh, great. Okay, one word even. One word. Great. I'm not even going to give you a sentence. Just great. All right. And for our episodes four to seven breakdown, we were joined by Luke, my podcasting partner over on the Wool Shift Dust feed. And he's back again for our episodes eight and nine discussion. And Luke, do you have a word or full sentence even about the last two episodes?

[00:01:53] I liked episode eight. I was not so hot on episode nine. It felt like an episode nine felt like an extended trailer for season two rather than a wrap up for season one. All right. Well, let's get into it because the spoilers start now. So do make sure you're caught up on the entire first season of Daredevil born again. Although we do reserve the right to bring up anything from the previous Daredevil series or any other Marvel movies, TV shows or comics.

[00:02:21] We feel like before we get into the episode itself, though, we actually we in our last episode, we were discussing the pronunciation of Donegal, this area of Ireland. And so we actually got Ken W. Irishman himself to weigh in on the precise pronunciation. He said, as a Dubliner and Irishman, I've gone past caring how American TV and movies butcher our accents and place names. It's gotten a little better over the years.

[00:02:52] I've sent an audio clip on how to say Donegal. Funny listening back to my own voice. Don't know how you do it week after week. So here's how he says to pronounce it. Hello, Alicia. This is how you say it in a Dublin accent. It's Donegal. We never say how it's spelt. And you said it. You said it right. You just have to say a little bit quicker. Just Donegal. Thanks very much. Keep up the great work. Love in the pods. Bye.

[00:03:23] A real, yeah, someone local to weigh in. Well, I mean, I know Dublin's not Donegal, but still. I will even attempt to do it. No? No. You're just never going to speak about it. I will butcher it. I'll have to practice over the summer. Come back in the fall. And I might be able to do it. All right. Let's get into our takes for the episodes themselves. This is episode eight, Isle of Joy, the black and white ball episode.

[00:03:51] So this was written by Jesse Wugetau and Dario Scardipane. Scardipane is the new showrunner. And Wugetau was also credited for episode four, the Punisher episode, and also the upcoming Tron Aries sequel, which did you guys see? Luke, did you check out that trailer? I know, Jean, you were saying it looks cool, right? Yeah. I mean, it does look cool. I'm not sure the world needed another Tron film. I like the way the Tron legacy left.

[00:04:20] I like that as an ending. I'm not really sure I need another. I love the other two Tron films, particularly the first one, the big part of my childhood. But I'm not sure the world really needs another Tron film. That said, the trailer looked cool. They've certainly got the atmosphere of Tron down very nicely in that trailer. Also, I feel like any movie with Gerard Leto in it, it's like flipping a coin.

[00:04:50] You're either going to be good Gerard Leto or bad Gerard Leto. Because when he's good, he's very good. And when he's bad, he's unwatchable. Well, he's always very committed. Yeah. I mean, to be honest, I don't think any of the Tron sequels were necessary, but here we are. So let's see what this one is. Jean, do you have thoughts? Yeah, I thought it just looked really cool. About the story, we'll see. But just the visuals from the trailer, it was like, okay,

[00:05:18] this is something that I definitely probably would want to see on screen. You know what I mean? If nothing else, just to experience what they actually did and how it was shot and all the cool things that technology and filmmaking can bring today as opposed to when I was a kid watching the original, you know? Yeah, that's true. That's true. I mean, it is one to watch for the visuals. Yeah, because that's only going to get better over time. Yeah.

[00:05:44] So both episodes of Daredevil Born Again were directed by Justin Benson and Aaron Moorhead, although it's interesting that for episode eight, Benson's listed first, and for episode nine, they flipped the credit, and Moorhead's listed first. And I know between them that Moorhead is more of the cinematographer of the two, really. So I did think the cinematography was great at the end. I do think that's something that they bring to the table.

[00:06:14] Have you guys watched any of their indie horror movies, like The Endless, Resolution, Spring? No. Okay. No, I don't think so. I mean, yeah, I quite like them. They are quite indie movies that are sort of have some vaguely Cthulhu, like cosmic horror time manipulation things going on. Yeah. Anyway, that's their background.

[00:06:42] And now they are like up and coming in within the Marvel machine. They did Loki season two. They did Moon Knight. Yeah. A lot of these kind of moodier things, I think. Right. Yeah. And episode nine with interest, the finale was written by Heather Belson and Dario Scardipani. Belson is known for The Walking Dead's later seasons and also Black Sails and The Sandman and et cetera.

[00:07:11] But anyway, Jean, what did you think of the two episodes with more words? I think putting them together, I felt, was a great, it was a good to very good bookend for me. I thought it was a great way to end this first season, this comeback season.

[00:07:35] We get to see a little bit about where Kingpin wants to take the city and what Matt is going to have to do in order to take it back from me. There were things that I didn't like. We'll talk about that more, I guess, a little bit later. But overall, I just felt that it was a great way to end this comeback season and to set up what's going to happen or what, you know, set up the next story that they're going to tell.

[00:08:05] Yeah. What did you think, Luke? I mean, there were individual things in the episode I liked. So let's start with those. I think both of these episodes really do add even more sort of flesh and nuanced context to Vanessa and Wilson's relationship and where the balance of power between those two characters rests. Love that Karen came back. Love the character. Love the actor.

[00:08:35] Yeah. And like, yeah. I usually don't ship fictional characters, but if her and Matt Murdock don't end up together at the end of this, I'm going to be deeply, deeply upset. Luke will riot. Yeah. I will riot. They're endgame, but, you know. Her chemistry with Frank also cannot be denied. It's true. It's true.

[00:08:59] So actually, I thought Punisher Frank was one of the best things in episode eight. I love when the cops are, when the dirty cops are trying to recruit him and he does a whole sort of look at you think you understand me. You think I understand how I see the world. And it's just like, yeah, these guys have nothing to do with you and you have nothing to do with these guys. And, but yeah, there was also a lot of things I didn't like,

[00:09:28] particularly in the final episode. Will somebody, somebody please turn a light on? Like, I understand the city is supposed to be in blackout, but you're having this enormous gunfight with the dirty cops and I can't see any of it. I had to watch that scene repeatedly to work out what was going on. And like, I tried fiddling with the contrast on my TV. So I don't think it was that. Like, I understand the city is in blackout,

[00:09:56] but you're just wasting a good fight scene. For me there, that was frustrating. I don't think like Fisk's plan doesn't make any sense because like the commissioner kept saying, he's only the mayor of New York. He's not the governor. He's not the president. Like the mayor simply does not have this kind of power. I mean, we'll talk about that, but there's, it's not a,

[00:10:24] it's based on an existing legal status. Okay. Okay. And yeah, I just, and also I thought like Matt's little voiceover soliloquy at the end, it's like, that is just an extended trailer for the next season. Like just, just put that, just put that in the trailer for season two. That was like a good five, six minutes at the end. I just did not, I just did not need. Okay.

[00:10:51] It felt very sort of that whole episode felt very padded out. Okay. Um, I think I'm the most positive of us three. I quite liked it, but I also, I did expect, I knew this was going to be a weird season because of all of the production wonkiness we've talked about in every episode up to this point. Um, uh, I knew this was going to tie back together with, with the first episode. And I think it did a really great job about that. And it got me really excited about season two. And sure.

[00:11:21] I don't think we're ever going to look back on this show and say like, Oh, season one was the strongest. No. Um, but as Rafe Judkins of wheel of time show runners recently said, TV shows are supposed to get better as they go. So, and I think, um, it's setting it up for what we all want from season two, which is more cohesive and deeper storytelling with the characters from the prior series that we all love.

[00:11:50] Did anyone else have a mini heart attack when he sat in the car and said, Luke? Yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, I, yeah, saw the punisher tattoo. Well, first I was like, I was like, Oh my God, is it going to be Luke Cage? And then the guy turned. I'm like, no, but wait, they didn't fucking recast today. And then I saw the punisher tattoo. And I was like, Luke Cage would never, would never, would never. You, you, you know,

[00:12:18] they did that just to screw with the audience. Yes. Absolutely. But yeah, I mean, did it mostly serve to get me excited for season two? Yes. But that's what I expected and it worked. So success. Yeah. On my part. All right, but let's get into the details itself. Um, we're going to be talking about overall plot arcs, mixing the two episodes together. Sean, do you want to set us up with a. Sure.

[00:12:49] Bullseye breaks out. A year and a half ago, Vanessa Fisk offered to get Bullseye, AKA Benjamin Dex, Point Dexter out of the mental institution where he was being kept under heavy sedation in exchange for taking out Foggy and his client in a case that could expose her activities in Red Hook. Back in the present, Dex's moves from solitary confinement to Gen Pop on Fisk's orders, a death sentence for a former police officer.

[00:13:17] Believe in Fisk hired Dex to sign in Svoggy. Murdoch interrogates Dex, bashing his head on the table and knocking loose a tooth. Dex later uses that tooth to kill his doctor and a guard before escaping prison. So, yeah. Have you read those comics where I didn't know that the tooth thing was from the comics so that it seems like something would be, but. Yeah. I didn't read those. I haven't read those. I've seen the pictures and yeah, they really, it's dead on. Yeah. I sort of,

[00:13:47] I saw the, the pictures posed, but I didn't, I actually never read the, that story. And so it was very interesting to see how they did it. Like panel from screen, you know, from the panel to the screen. That was really cool. Yeah. Yeah. You can tell that they have a lot of respect for the source material. Yeah. Yeah. Um, we, you saw the whole discord debate. Uh,

[00:14:16] do you think Matt did it on purpose? Did he knock his head so that he would lose a tooth on purpose? I'm still up in the air about that because at first, I think I thought that he didn't ended reading the debate. I was kind of swayed, but now I'm just like, I'm unsure. Um, but it certainly felt like that. I think about it, that he did it on purpose. And I don't think, I just don't think Matt would be that.

[00:14:47] I don't think he would be that cavalier about getting this guy out of jail. You know what I mean? Like for all the things that we talked about, um, what is justice? Like in, in this series, in this season, I could very well imagine him saying, you know, sending this guy back into gen pop is a death sentence. Right. So I'm going to mitigate Kingpin's, you know, efforts to kill somebody.

[00:15:15] But then on the other hand, he knows this guy's a psychopath and he knows he's a killer and he killed his best friend. So I can't see how he would square, letting him get away with all of that. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. I mean, you, you gave me some food for thought there because I was going to come down firmly on the side of, I don't think he would do that, but it is also, you know, we see him falling. Uh, he's,

[00:15:45] he's losing his faith in the justice system at the moment, especially with Kingpin as mayor. And, uh, what did Dex say to him? He says a good man defends even his worst enemy, which obviously, you know, uh, influences what happens later, um, when he jumps in front of the bullet. But what if it did influence this moment? I don't, but I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. That's why I say I'm, I'm 50, 50 on it. So, um, but again, I think the,

[00:16:15] the season is called is making Matt question. What is justice? And I can understand in that moment saying, well, I'm going to help this guy get away, but then, you know, you're going to help a psychopath, you know, get away. How does that, how does that match? I don't know. Yeah. What do you think Luke? Yeah. I don't think, I don't think Matt did it on purpose. I don't think he's thinking like that clearly in that moment. You know, this is the guy that killed foggy.

[00:16:44] This is the guy that killed his best friend. And also, um, Dex is pushing his buttons as well, quite deliberately in that scene. And like, you do see the, you do see the, the harder side of Matt Murdock in that scene when he's got, when he's, when it's, um, asking him to get him out and he's doing the whole, Oh, what do you want? You know, you want somebody to tuck you in? You want to, yeah, you do see, and like, this is a bit, this is a bit earlier in the episode where he's talking to the guy who's, um,

[00:17:14] been accused of, um, defrauding the teachers. He does the whole thing. He does the whole thing about subordining perjury. And I think that, I think that those two scenes are kind of continuations of one another. This is Matt Murdock, not being a lawyer, not thinking it through, not, um, not having a plan. This is just pure id. This is pure daredevil. This is,

[00:17:43] I'm pissed off at the world and the world is going to know it. So I, I don't think there was anything. I don't think there was anything in that moment beyond you killed my friend and I want to hurt you now. I think what this season, I mean, I, I like this season. I think we can all agree. It's not a perfect season by any means. Um, and I think where it fumbled for me most is in not clearly defining Matt's arc in,

[00:18:12] in these terms of his moral arc, you know, like they set it up at the beginning where he crossed a line that daredevil fans know he would never cross where he actually tried to kill, uh, bullseye. And, and we've seen him grapple throughout the season with this, but I don't, I'm not sure what we're supposed to take away from it at this point, other than he's questioning. And what is,

[00:18:41] where does this like head bashing play into that? Because that's not a very, I guess he was just slipping and I, maybe because he wasn't letting, okay, I'm, I'm working through it as I talk. Maybe he wasn't, um, he, because he wasn't acting out being daredevil, you know, for the longest time, it was starting to like slip through in his lawyer persona. Like he couldn't separate them. Yeah. I mean,

[00:19:11] again, I, I just think, I don't think either one of you are wrong, right? Obviously, because I'm, I'm still confused about it myself. So I don't think, I think the, the showrunners obviously want us to question this, right? Whether he did it on purpose or whether he did not, but my, I can't divorce my, my feeling from what I know that they're setting up is this morality play that Matt is going through. Like you said,

[00:19:40] he's questioning his whole role in the justice system. He's questioning what is, you know, you have Kingpin questioning vigilantes and New Yorkers questioning the role of vigilantes, right? You have him questioning his role as a lawyer. So I can't turn away from those narrative things that they did in the story, in this scene,

[00:20:07] particularly to just say, okay, he is just hell bent on making sure that Poindexter, you know, suffers the fate that he obviously deserves. I don't know. and that's something I want to be very clear on is that I hope we get to answer in the next season exactly about Matt's, you know, views on where he stands,

[00:20:36] both as daredevil and as Matt Murdoch in the grand scheme of how people and how, you know, justice is delivered and not delivered to the masses. So maybe we'll get that answer. Um, because Poindexter, you know, bullseye got away, right? Yeah. Yeah. He got away. So at some point he's going to return. And what does that return mean? And do we get an answer when he returns? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:04] And it's interesting because in the current daredevil run that just did, the arc that just finished, he actually did cross the line and the line that was crossed was bullseye. Right. Yeah. I actually, I, I think I heard about this because, um, he bullseye killed Electra and he did the same to him in return. Uh, no, it's, um, so he, this is this whole thing.

[00:21:33] It's a very quasi religious, you know, the thing that Matt is dealing with, uh, you know, seven deadly sins who have come to get retribution upon him and would, um, I forget which one it was, took over. He had to do it in order to save foggy. He had a choice. One or the other was going to die. And he obviously chose bullseye. Okay.

[00:21:59] So that is his moral quandary that he's going through in this next arc that's just started is what do I do with that? What's my relationship with foggy? Because foggy was saved and saved because he made a decision to let somebody else die. Hmm. Okay. Okay. So I want to see, you know, this, a lot of parallels with the TV show. Right. And I, I kind of want to see if these two things,

[00:22:29] both in the comics and in the TV show are playing off of each other. Right. The viewer. So, right. Right. Yeah, they could. I mean, that is one advantage of having everything now back under the same roof is that they can do things like that. Yeah. Right. All right. Moving on to black and white and red all over. Fisk reveals his imprisonment of Adam to Vanessa and watches as she kills him. And then the couple decides to throw a black and white ball fundraiser to celebrate their love,

[00:22:58] shake down their mutual enemies and give Vanessa the opportunity to be the only bitch at the ball dressed in red. Fisk also invites Heather to tell her there to tell her their therapy is concluded, but mostly to lure her romantic partner who Fisk, but not Heather knows as daredevil. As Fisk hints to Heather, Matt's secret decks arrives and shoots at Fisk. Matt jumps in front of the bullet and is critically wounded.

[00:23:26] Dex escapes the ball and Matt is hospitalized. So what did you guys think of the Luke? What did you think of this whole setup, the black and white ball and the intrigues? I really liked the use of a jukebox soundtrack to the black and white. That was cool. Whoever selected the music for that got that spot on chef's kiss.

[00:23:56] I thought Heather was being really, really, either really stupid or really naive in this episode. I can't quite make my mind up, which it's not as though, it's not as though the other characters in the show don't know who Wilson Fisk is. Right. Or what he's done. Right. If you go, if you go back to the first episode, the whole, there was a whole thing around, you know, ex-con runs for mares. Right.

[00:24:23] They may not have all the information on him that Matt Murdock does, but they, they know who this guy is. And Heather is just there like blowing off what are perfectly legitimate concerns on the part of, um, I'm a part of Matt Murdock. So when, um, I can't, the, the mayor's assistant, I'm blanking on his name, book delivers the, delivers the invitation. Like Matt is there asking the perfectly legitimate question of how did you know she was staying with me?

[00:24:52] And like Heather just refuses to engage with that. And it's like, why are you making Matt out to be the bad guy in this moment? You know who Wilson Fisk is. You know what he's capable of. It's actually, it's actually really creepy that the mayor does not seem to know where you are. Right. Why are you, why are you behaving this way? It's like, there's no motivation for her behavior, except that the plot seems to demand that she behave that way.

[00:25:22] Yeah. So I, I, I've got to say, I found that really, I found that pretty poor writing actually. And it's, it's credit to the actors in that scene that actually, they actually sell what is a pretty illogical, um, what is a pretty illogical scene so that when you're watching it, it doesn't, it doesn't jar. You have to actually think about it afterwards to, to sort of fully process how like unreasonable Heather is being in that scene.

[00:25:52] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I definitely am hating on Heather, um, after these two episodes, like just hold on. Um, and it's, it's just, they, they want us to, it's like that same feeling I got with, with Electra in season two, where, I don't know, uh, of the original series where, where it's like, you want me to hate this person, right?

[00:26:22] Yeah. He, and, and, and Matt saying things like, I hate therapists speak, which of course she speaks and therapists speak. And she's just like, everything she says is an insult to him, but she doesn't realize that she's constantly insulting him, but she just has no respect for anything he says to her. Like, sure. It's true. He hasn't told her the whole truth, but I just, she's not sympathetic to me at all. And obviously from Matt's perspective,

[00:26:52] and she doesn't fully realize this, but Fisk wants Matt to know that he has access to his girlfriend. What? No, this is, this is the thing. Heather doesn't need to know. You don't need all the information from Heather's point of view to know that this is something really fishy, really creepy is going on here. And it's like, she's, she's like basically implying that Matt is being creepy and overprotective. Yes.

[00:27:21] For just asking what are a series of perfectly in the circumstances, perfectly reasonable quest, reasonable questions. I, I, I, I do think this goes, this goes back to, to Matt's relationship with Karen. I do think one of the problems that carries right the way back to the original Netflix series is like you were saying, Alicia, all of Matt's alternative romantic partners have been written in such a way

[00:27:48] that the audience is meant to dislike them. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, not, not all of them, I would say just Electra and now Heather. I liked all the others, but I mean, I was so mad at Heather at the, I mean, I, I, I suppose they're broken up by the end. Now Heather's becoming Fisk's commissioner of mental health.

[00:28:15] Are we just supposed to understand that she's ambitious or, and we didn't see what's her response to the fact that their apartment was blown up. Presumably her belongings were in there too. Well, well, I read that as more. She is just terrified of Fisk and terrified of what would happen if she turned him down. Mm. Mm. Mm. What are you thinking, Joe? Well, let's, let's,

[00:28:45] let's just get this, the elephant out of the room right now. Heather can definitely, without any doubt, a hundred percent kick rocks. Cause you know what? She is for everything that both of you have just said. She needs to go. She needs to go. I do think it's ambition. I do think it's the proximity to, to power. I do think it's the celebrity.

[00:29:13] I do think that she is willfully, because when she's talking to Matt about the assault, the, the attempted murder, you know, by the hand, at the hands of, uh, Muse, she downplays everything that daredevil did in order to save her. Right. She's putting Muse and daredevil on the same level because, in her,

[00:29:41] it felt like to me that she actually had to believe this thing in order to continue doing what she's doing. like, it has to fit into this, you know, view of life that she now has to align herself with the fiscal agenda. Um, so no, I don't think she was afraid in that moment when she accepted.

[00:30:11] And I do believe that she is like so many people that we see in real life. she is complicit. Hmm. And she's okay with her complicity because it's to right now, her benefit. Right. Um, she doesn't know that Matt is daredevil yet. So maybe that would complicate things if that comes out for her worldview. But at the moment,

[00:30:40] it's strictly what Fisk, who she knows, like Luke said, it's a mon, he's a criminal, right? She may not know the depths of his monstrosity, but she knows he's a criminal, but like so many other people, she just doesn't care about that. What she does care about is that he is doing, he is doing and saying something that speak into her own personal agenda,

[00:31:06] her own personal belief that mass vigilantes need help. They need, you know, treatment because sometimes, something is wrong with people walking around in mass, saving people. They're just as bad as the people who are committing the atrocities. They all need help. This is her worldview. And it's in line with what Fisk is trying to do. So commissioner of health, she's going to try to put everybody in,

[00:31:35] in treatment. You know, as soon as you get arrested, you know, she's going to have Peter Parker in treatment. She's going to have dead devil in treatment, Luke Cage treatment. Everybody's in treatment. Missy, you're in treatment. Honestly, most of these characters genuinely do. Yeah. Yeah. That's actual, actual factual. Yes. But we don't want like another Sokovia Accords thing. Right. Right. Or, you know, or we don't want what we see at the end,

[00:32:04] which is Fisk keeping people in cages. Right. And this is where we're headed. Right. Right. And it's headed to another Sokovia, you know, Accord. This is being taken. Even more brutal. Yeah. Yes. Because of Fisk. It's Fisk. So in the comics, again, I think we spoke to this about this earlier. There is a comic arc where Fisk does become mayor of New York City. He does an act,

[00:32:33] an anti-vigilante act law. He does try to jail, you know, vigilantes. He has, you know, a team of anti-vigilante, you know, task force. All of these things do come to, in the comic. And that arc, New Yorkers, the populace, are overly supportive of these efforts because they think that vigilantes are, you know, destroying the city.

[00:33:02] They do more harm than good. Right. So he's feeding into all these, these narratives and you get that in the TV show. You feel it. Right. He's speaking to what people are afraid of, what people are fearful of, what people are, you know, questioning. Even though he actually saved your life, you have Heller saying, yeah, he saved my life,

[00:33:29] but I think I'm the one who actually killed Muse. I killed him. It was me. It wasn't Daredevil. I saved myself. Right. All of these things are, Harbingers for a very bad future in the short term for New York's heroes. Right. Right. And their vigilante troubles aside, it seems like there's not really a trust between them.

[00:33:58] Like it also, she seems very jealous of Karen. We saw that in previous episodes. And now when he's in the hospital, he wakes up, he calls out for Karen. What do you think that's about? Do you think that was like, was that personal or was that like, oh, I need to tell Karen what I learned about foggy so we can do investigate stuff? Both. Both. Yeah. What do you think? Yeah. Both.

[00:34:27] Also just going back to the, the fiscs and Alex in the cage, I, the best line of these, these entire two episodes was, I'm better. I'm better. I am. Just, I just, I love, I love the, the, the weird dynamics of that marriage. It's just like the, the, the, the two actors that play them just play it perfectly. Yes, they do. Yeah. All right. Well, let's take a quick pause here. And when we get back, we're going to talk about that,

[00:34:57] the, how the couple who kills together, apparently. They taste together. Something like that. So John, you were right. Adam, what's, uh,

[00:35:24] being kept in red hook and is killing Adam kind of like the most romantic thing Vanessa has ever done for fisc. Like, obviously. Even more than killing Luca. Yes, I think so. Absolutely. I think this is, they are, they are horrible people. Just, just horrible people. And I am counting down to when they get their just desserts. They are,

[00:35:53] terrible people. And, you know, again, like Luke said, it's credit to the actors because they just give me such, you know, whenever they're on screen together, it's mesmerizing because they're so terrible. Terrible. The both of them together are just, you know, it's like a tour de force, a tornado of, of disgustingly bad people.

[00:36:21] And I am just like, you know, I, when she actually did it, I didn't see the gun. you know, my, my wonderful, better half. She noticed the gun on the table, but I didn't see it. So I was like, Oh shit. And she was like, you didn't see the gun. I'm like, no, I didn't see the gun right there. I didn't see it. I know. That was like proper. Oh my, oh my, oh my. Yes. Yes. I mean, they are literally,

[00:36:51] they are literally doing Chekhov's gun. Yes. Yes. But the only thing I saw, I don't know why. The only thing I focused on, I think was the key. There was a key there. I saw the choice. I know the choice was there, but I only focused on the key. I didn't focus on the gun. That's what the cinematographers wanted you to focus on. And I was just like, Oh, she did it. You know, I said, man, that's tough right there. And then the shot,

[00:37:19] of his dead face in between their, you know, embrace and like almost like a heart. Right. And it had the dead man's face in the middle of this heart of them embracing, you know, forehead to forehead nose to nose. It just incredible. Just incredible. That's in the house. Yeah. That's like one of my, honestly, it's one of my favorite shots that I've seen. And, and,

[00:37:49] and quite some time. I just thought it perfectly encapsulated what these two people are about. They are terrible human beings. There is no good that can come out of their union. There is no good to be had when the two of them are together. You already know they're terrible people apart from each other, but together they, they will,

[00:38:15] there's nothing that they will not do in order to maintain their power, their control. And yeah, just really good stuff. That whole scene was just really, really good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I also, I agree with you, Luke, that I am better than I was, was the funniest line in the entire series to date. He's like an overgrown child. Like what? I am better than I was. What?

[00:38:46] To give, to give Vanessa the tiniest little bit of credit. I do think that, I do think the reason she, she killed Alex was, you know, to build a relationship. Adam, rebuild a relationship with Fisk. Yes. To reestablish trust. But I also think it's to stop Adam suffering anymore, frankly, because, you know, Fisk is just systematically, Wilson Fisk is just systematically torturing the poor guy. Right. So.

[00:39:14] But she could have let him go. And that was not the choice she made, but I think. Could she let him go? Could she let him go? I mean, I mean, if, if, even if he managed to escape, there's no way in the world that Kingpin wouldn't, wouldn't have used like the entire resources of his, of the city and his criminal empire to track him down. Well, I just think it's, it would have ruined her life too. And her marriage if she let him go. So. But yeah, I'm not giving Vanessa much credit,

[00:39:43] but I think we give her the tiniest bit of credit, at least for Adam is out of his, is out of his misery. Right. And again, credit to my better half for asking, making me ask this, was it his life or hers? Yeah. Good. At that point. Was it him or her? You think I, I do believe her when she said to Heather earlier in the season that she does not worry that fiscal hurt her. But that was before she saw Adam in the cage. Yeah.

[00:40:13] But that's Adam because he loves her so much. He has. I mean, this is not a healthy relationship, but I believe her. No, no, no. It's, it's, they're terrible. They are. They're terrible together. Terrible. Yeah. Just the, the level of it that comes off screen. You can almost, you can almost see it. It almost comes off them in a way. You feel it. Yeah. Yeah. But then what, what's, what's worse.

[00:40:40] We saw them getting back together or this was, again, they're doing the parallels between Fisk and Matt. So they have them getting back together. Just juxtaposed with like the beginning of the end between Matt and Heather, which is the worst horror story, which relationship. Oh, Fisk and the Fisk, the Fiskers. There's no, there's no comparison. There's no comparison. I mean, the, the, the, the Matt Murdoch and Heather, you know,

[00:41:10] we've all been there. We've all been at the end of a relationship, but I don't think any of us have, you know, killed, killed that wife's ex lover that is being, well, against his will in a cage. In a cage. And tortured. To be fair, he got his wife to kill her own ex lover. Fair enough. Either way, I think, I think, I think one of these two things is relatable and one of these two things isn't. It's, I mean, it's relatable. And maybe that's why, Oh, I just,

[00:41:39] the Matt and Heather thing rubs me so much the wrong way. I am ready for that to be done. No, I agree. I'm like, bring back Electra. Let's do that bullshit again. Rather than that. But this is the thing. It's so obviously written. It's so obviously written to elicit that reaction. But it is like, you know, Matt's best partners are those who are actual partners to him. And that is something that the Fisks have. Like they are together at this party. They're like,

[00:42:07] let's throw a party so that you can look like a bad bitch. And then we can blackmail everyone who's there. So we got that set up with that woman, Artemis, who Jack Duquesne, the swordsman. He, he's like, yeah, they were, they were both kind of surprised to see each other. And then he asks her where, where's your better half Arthur. And she says, I don't know. Do you?

[00:42:32] And then we see both Jack and Arthur in the cages at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because apparently Jack was snide about the red hook project. And so they're just like, what are they, I mean, I guess we'll get to the cages next, but I'm just wondering what his end goal is. Blackmail. And also, why, why were you not carrying like a sword cane? To the, to the blackmail. You don't walk, you don't walk into Wilson Fisk's lair,

[00:43:03] I don't know. If you're, yeah, it's true. If your weapon happens to conveniently fit inside a cane. Yeah. Why are you not carrying that around at all times? Yes. Also, you know, just because it's a sword cane. It's cool. Also, when you see that ball, it's like, even though it's wildly impractical and I'd get food down it in about five minutes, I want to buy a white suit. That looks so cool. Kingpin now.

[00:43:31] Even though it's wildly impractical. Mm-hmm. I think that's part of, yeah. Yeah. That's, that's part of the whole thing. Like I'm wearing a white suit. What? You know what I mean? Like this is, this is, you know, I'm still not afraid to get my hands bloody. Yeah. And this is a show of power. Yeah. But you know, you know, if you ever went to a formal occasion in a white suit, you get a canopate down the front of it. Unless. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But speaking of, of hands. Um,

[00:44:02] yeah, that whole thing with the task force and the journalist where they shove his hand into a deep fryer. That was, I mean, it was the same idiot asshole who needs to die, but, um, the guy who, the guy who did it. I mean, but, um, that, I don't know. I don't know how I feel about that. It was shocking, but it was like, there were a couple of moments I thought were a bit too mustache twirly. And that was one of them.

[00:44:33] Hmm. No, I didn't feel that way. I didn't feel that way. I thought all the violence was apropos to this, to the series, um, to even the characters that were perpetuating that violence. So it didn't feel out of step for me. Any of that. Um, the, the thing that felt out of step was, was he had a camera with a flash, but he flashed when he took the picture. There was, there was like a flash that made it obvious that he was taking a picture. So I was like, why would you do that, bro?

[00:45:03] But, um, you know, but I, I think, you know, setting this, this task force up as something out of the history books that we obviously, you know, don't want to revisit America. If you're listening, we don't want to revisit that, you know? Um, but it is just so, uh,

[00:45:31] telling when the commissioner walks in and he's like, yo, what are you, what are you guys doing? You know what I mean? I'll have your badge for that. It's like, yo, we don't even answer to you anymore, bro. Like, what are you talking about? I've got to say that, that, that was the part of the scene that annoyed me, not the, not the violence of sticking his hand in the fryer. It's like the commissioner is just sitting, standing there, giving him a stern telling. Right. Are you actually, you actually going to do anything to try and stop this? No, no. Yeah.

[00:46:00] Because he turned around and he saw it like the room filled with dudes that he knows that he can't control. And I think that's, that's the, that's the thing. Like all these levers of power are slowly figuring out they cannot control Wilson Fisk. Mm hmm. You know, and when he first met the, the rich, the rich folk who told them, Hey, we're the ones who make the decisions here. We're, we're really the power, you know, they thought they can control Wilson Fisk. And it turns out you can't, you know,

[00:46:29] when you have a, a homicidal maniac who's, you know, also really thinking about how to do devious shit. And it's not just, you know, acting on pure instinct. You may not be able to control that. You know, you, you might want to think twice about letting this person get into power in a position where he can, you know, make policies or enact different policies. Right.

[00:46:55] So now we're seeing people one after the other, just fall, fall down. Um, and the only things left is this ragtag group of folks who, I don't know how Jessica Jones. I mean, hopefully, you know, he gets some more help because he's going to need it. Um, he needs an army. He's going to need it. So it's just, you know, it was, it was great to see in that moment, the commissioner realized that shit, man, I don't know what I got to do,

[00:47:24] but whatever I was doing before. Mm-hmm. Can't, I can't keep doing, you know what I mean? Like, this is not normal. Like, what do I do now that this shit is not normal? And so, and we found out what happens when, you know, you try to do something, you know, other people like the power. Well, I have, I have, I have questions, I have questions about that. Um, yeah. Yeah. Because like, you know, when the commission is going on about, we're going on about, you know,

[00:47:53] going up to Albany to see the governor, do they not have, do they not have phones in New York? Why have you got to, why have you got to physically drive up to Albany to see the governor? Just presumably you have his phone number. Everything's tapped. I, I think what Alicia just said, I think, um, you know, you have to come to a point where you have to consider that everything that you do is being, you're being watched every step. You're being listened to at every step. And it proved,

[00:48:21] and it proved out because how did he get caught? He got caught by somebody actually taping his conversation. You know what I'm saying? Right. Ugh. Like he, he was thinking like, yo, I can't do this here. You know what I mean? If I stay here and try to do this, try to meet up with other people or whatever, it's going to get out and I'm going to get got. And somebody else was thinking like, man, you know, I don't, I don't, like what,

[00:48:51] what's her name? Sheila. Sheila. Yeah. Yeah. She's the epitome of, uh, you know, I can be, I can steer this ship. I can move it in the direction that we all want it to go when it's not going in the direction that we all want it to go. So it's like, she's coming to the realization that for all her, you know, trust in the system, this is not trustworthy. Yeah.

[00:49:20] Because all the institutions that you care about are faltering and whether she did it because she wanted to preserve her own life or her own. I didn't, I don't feel that way. I felt that she did it to preserve her, her place in the administration of Fisk. Um, but ultimately, those ultimately from her position, those two things are now the same. Now they are. Yes. Yeah. But before she gave him the tape, while she was giving him the tape,

[00:49:51] I don't think she was in fear of her life, but, uh, yeah, you know what I mean? I don't think she was in fear of her life. Now she obviously realizes, shit, I, I was just complicit in this man's murder. Right. Now what do I do? Yeah. Yeah. Well, speaking about a homicidal maniacs, um, why do you guys think this was another hotly debated topic on the, on the discord?

[00:50:20] Why do we think that Poindexter wanted to kill Fisk, but not Vanessa? Because Vanessa is the one who got him out. And, um, she's the one who didn't kind of follow through on what was promised because he landed, she's the one who got him to do the killing. And then, you know, he winds up in gen pop. So why is he only going after Fisk? Do we think, does he have, like, could he be in love with Vanessa or something himself? Hmm.

[00:50:50] Oh, I didn't think about that. Hmm. I thought, I thought he's using Fisk as the bigger threat. Yeah. True. I think, I think he was taking out the, what he thought was the bigger threat. Like Fisk is back. He's the mayor. He's in power. Um, so I think he was taking out what he perceived as the biggest threat to his life, which was Fisk. I didn't,

[00:51:20] I didn't think about this, you know, being enamored with Vanessa from her visit, which could very well be. But for me, it was just about taking out the person that he viewed as the one at the top of the food chain. Like if I take him out and everything else will be cool. And if I got to take somebody else out, then so be it, but take out the head person. And then, you know, I'll be, I'll be able to, to slip away. Hmm. Hmm.

[00:51:50] Yeah. I think that it's, I want to know what's going through his mind after Matt jumps in front of Fisk in that moment, especially given what he said about, you know, you need to defend your worst enemies too. And then ungrateful Fisk is like a dead hero is better than a live vigilante, which, which of course applies also to bullseye. So even though bullseye is not a good guy, he and Matt are in the same boat to a certain degree. How?

[00:52:20] I mean, there's like, like we go, let's say, um, Matt, Frank, Poindexter. This is like a continuum of being a good guy, hero vigilante to a psycho psycho killer vigilante who he thinks he's meeting out justice in his own way. I suppose. Although he is at least, well, that's why I say he's the other end of the spectrum.

[00:52:47] And then Frank's in the middle because Frank thinks he's doing only justice, you know, and he does tend to go for the bad guys. Whereas bullseye is just a, he is the actual dangerous vigilante that shouldn't be on the streets the most. I mean, I think bullseye is more Fisk than either one of, you know, Frank or Matt. Yeah, but Fisk is a different kind of villain because Fisk is a villain at the head

[00:53:17] of an organization. You know, he's not just someone who's going out and doing a thing on the spot. He's got his webs and power structures. And even on the criminal side, I just want to shout out one cinematography thing in this section too, is also they change the aspect ratio to show changes in Matt's perception.

[00:53:46] So to show his super hearing and super, you know, senses. Daredevil senses, not spidey senses. Daredevil tingle. So yeah, I think that's a cool effect. So John, what's going on in Red Hook? All right. The Red Hook master plan. At Josie's bar, Murdoch learns that Nelson was celebrating an impending court win the night he died.

[00:54:14] Murdoch deduces that Vanessa hired Dex to kill Nelson and confronts her. Young journalist, BB Urick, who actually is, as I hoped, aware of Fiske's involvement in her uncle Ben Urick's murder. She asked Commissioner Gallo to help bring down Fiske and the AVTF. Meanwhile, Kirsten, who is being left out of everything with no choice, but to scrounge clues for herself,

[00:54:43] gets increasingly frustrated with Matt's erratic, secretive behavior. Yeah. So John, you were right about BB. Oh, thank God. You know, I was, yeah, I was worried for that girl. I was worried for her. I was worried for her, but I'm glad that she knows what she's doing and she's, you know, trying to, she has a plan no matter how risky the plan is. She does have a plan and she knows what she's getting into. And she's not just, you know, strictly here for the, the,

[00:55:12] the views, you know, for her, for her page. So very cool to see that she's, you know, way, way ahead of the game. Mm hmm. Yeah. Uh, she says, not everything I write is under my name. So I'm very curious about that. I was, I was excited to see her and the commissioner team up and I'm bummed that we don't get to see any of that now. Who does she team up with now? Who does she team up in now? Yeah.

[00:55:42] I am relieved that she is, I don't know. I didn't, I was getting really icked with her about her relationship with, uh, Daniel, the, you know, Gandolfini junior henchman. So I'm relieved about that. Yeah. Luke, do you have any thoughts about BB and her storyline? Um, not so much about, not so much about BB, but I do, uh, I do think Daniel is becoming one of the most interesting characters in this, um,

[00:56:12] series. Cause he started off as being like this sort of wide eyed idealist. He's prepared to go along with Wilson Fisk is kind of the outsider. That's coming along to, to shake up the system. And as the, the season's gone along, I think he's becoming sort of increasingly swept up in the careerist aspect of it. Sort of wanting the power and the influence. And also like when he's at the ball, he's just like wandering around, like wide eyed at the whole,

[00:56:42] um, at the whole sort of the opulence of it. So I think he's becoming a really interesting fairly, he's become quite an interesting secondary character. Um, and the whole thing, I, I do, I do think it's going to be interesting. What happens when he finds out that BB's just been stringing, stringing him along. Mm. Mm. Yeah. Ooh, that might be dangerous. I've worried for BB for sure. Yeah. When it comes to that. Yeah. Cause he's like more, yeah,

[00:57:11] but he has no compunction in blackmailing the city council members at the end of the, the end of the, the end of the following episode as well. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and what do we think of Kirsten in these last couple episodes? I feel like, I feel like we've gotten glimpses of her personality and I hope that in future seasons, next season, she actually gets a chance to shine.

[00:57:40] I don't want her to be on the opposite side as of, of Matt. You know, I don't want her to be an antagonist to Matt. I want her to be in on the secret. I want her to become besties with Karen. I feel like that would be a fun dynamic to watch. Um, yeah, please. I'm with you. I hope they, I hope they pretty, I hope they pretty, they let her figure out that Murdoch is, is daredevil within like the first couple of episodes of season two.

[00:58:09] Cause I always find this whenever you have superheroes and anything, I always find the, the, the, the, the coworker, the friend that doesn't know. I always found that very weary. Right now, but it's just, you go through the same arguments over and over. You know, you look like you went to a fight club. Yeah. You know, when you're late, it just gets boring. Really gets boring really quickly. Yeah. And I'm glad that they showed her frustration with the whole situation. You know,

[00:58:39] because they are supposed to be, um, this is a law firm. Right. This is, you know, they, this is a start. They started this law firm together and, you know, they have, she has, you know, things that she has to worry about, you know, and presumably, you know, Matt should be worried about those same things too. You know, paying people's salaries and, you know, paying the rent in, in the building that they, that they have. It's a very nice,

[00:59:08] it's a very nice building. Yeah, it is. Exactly. So she has a whole host of things that she's like, where are you? Because we have this thing that I left my career that I was building to do with. Right. So what is happening? What is happening with my life? You know, because, you know, it's not just so simple as just what's happening to you because what's happening to you directly affects me. So I'm happy that they finally showed, you know, some, you know,

[00:59:38] heft to her story because it's there, you know, it weighs. And hopefully, like Luke said, in the next season, she quickly, you know, figures out that she's working with Daredevil as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think she, she definitely notices. She probably and rightfully thinks that Matt is having some sort of like mental, questioning period. Yeah. Well, he says to her, we're not servicing justice here. We're babysitting chaos,

[01:00:08] which is a good insight into, which he's not wrong, but it is a good insight into his psyche at the moment where he's not believing in their cause of doing things above the table, the legal way. Right. And then this is, this is also not what she signed up for. Mm hmm. For, for that question. You know what I mean? That's not what she signed up for. She signed up, take these cases, let's get this money. Yeah.

[01:00:38] Yeah. Yeah. Um, I wonder, I want to see her weigh in on, this is the thing is I just loop Kirsten in more on everything. Like I want to see her weigh in on the whole situation where they found out that Red Hook is a free port. So that means it's exempt. It's an old, it's, this is not true in the real world, by the way, this is an alternative dimension. Red Hook is not a free port, but a free port is basically something that's technically not part of the rest of the city or country even.

[01:01:08] So like, think about, they want to create something that's like a little enclave. Like think about like Monaco or something like that, or Vatican city. Yeah. I mean that, that, that can be what a free port is, but mostly it just refers to a port where you don't levy the full, you don't like levy the full range of tariffs and customs. Like it's not, it's not as though a free port is just like this magic,

[01:01:37] a space in which no sort of legal system applies. That's what they want to. Yeah. That's, that's what they're saying in the show, but that's not really how it works. Right. It's, it's, you don't pay, you don't pay, you can inflate stuff into it without paying tariffs and duties, but it's not like it's a complete free for all. Right. Like they were, like they were implying. Well, yeah, I mean, I think they're saying they want to leverage it.

[01:02:04] I don't know if that's knowledge worth killing for, but. Yeah. Why not? But I mean, in that universe, I'm saying in that universe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know it's its own universe, but it's also like the mayor cannot declare martial law. I don't know what, what powers you think the mayor of a major metaphor, but there he has, but he can't actually declare martial law. Right. But, but. In that universe. This is, this is the kingpin that we're talking about,

[01:02:34] right? Yeah. So this is not a normal mayor. True. This is, this is the kingpin who's going to do things and, and enact things that you would not think someone could do. And he's going to dare you to stop him. Also, also like there was just, there was just like one, there was just like one moment where it's just like, I'm sorry, you've lost me. My willing suspension of disbelief is gone. You are telling me that Josie remembers precisely what type of whiskey

[01:03:03] Foggy was drinking on. Yeah. No, no, that is, that is very believable because it is such an expensive, rare whiskey that she had kept aside just for him. Just for that. Okay. Yeah. So I completely buy into that. Like you only break that out on like once every five years. Oh, yeah. That's a, that's a once a five year pour. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So you remember, you remember the pours.

[01:03:34] I will, I will take your word for that. Cause I'm not a whiskey aficionado. I mean, it could be anything, something that you just keep on hand for a specific person for very special occasions. So you'd be like, Oh, he asked for that bottle. Yeah. okay. Now we serious, serious things are happening. Okay. All right. Well, since we're on the topic of Foggy, let's take another quick break. And we get back, let's get into the bloody buddies.

[01:04:19] Fisk cuts off the power to New York city and orders Buck Cashman to kill Murdoch, who escapes to his apartment, finding Frank Castle there. Both fight AVTF officers, including Cole North revealed to be Hector Ayala's murderer. The pair reunite with Karen page, who asked Frank to protect Matt after learning of Dexter's escape. Matt and Karen track down Foggy's case and discover the Fiskies were trying to establish a city state in Red Hood.

[01:04:50] So, uh, yeah, I was, I liked the, the banter with Frank. Um, uh, he was like peak Frank Castle, which I know, you know, everyone, people are calling him a monster. I'm like, he, he's a monster in the middle, you know, he's a medium monster, but I knew. That man's a monster. Okay. You could call it. I, I put it out there. I said, that man's a monster and he's a damn monster. I don't care what anybody says. I loved,

[01:05:19] I'm not playing patty cake with these fanboys. No, no patty cake was played. Oh, you don't want me to kill him. What about him? Bam. Yo, chill out, chill out with the shots. I'm like, oh my gosh, this guy is out of control. When he, when he did that, that was like, that's when I said, all right, this, this Frank Castle, you know, you Frank Castle, you know, if my,

[01:05:48] if he has a beef, I don't want Frank Castle to come through because Frank is going to air everybody out. Everybody's gone. We don't want that. We just want to settle the differences and, you know, walk away, shake hands, whatever. Walk away. Frank is not shaking hands. He's not about that. It's like, he looked at, he looked at Matt and said, you don't want me to kill this one. So you, you care about this one? Huh? Bam. I said, what are we doing here? Just to prove a point.

[01:06:19] Yes. But also the, the special effects department was slopping around the blood. Like it was just like buckets of blood. Buckets and buckets of gore. I've just got this image of like the director standing up in one. Oh, he didn't rain. Can't go. More blood. More blood. Like young Frankenstein. Oh man. That was something. That was something.

[01:06:48] Question about that. Uh, about the, the coal guy who he did indeed, it turns out, kill white tiger. Um, and he, was he the one who threw the, um, grenade at the end that blew up the apartment? Yeah, I think so. I think it was. Did he, did he, was that like a suicide thing? Did he die? I gotta go back. I gotta go back to look at it. I'm not sure. Well, this is, this is, this is the thing. Like I said earlier on in the episode,

[01:07:17] I get that the city is in a blackout. You don't need to like turn the light on. Just get a spotlight or something. Cause it really like, you've got like this massive fight with two of your main characters and a whole bunch of cops. And I can't see it. I've been messing around with the picture on my TV. Doesn't make a bit of difference. Turn the light on. I don't know.

[01:07:46] I feel like the way it was cut was maybe a little confusing because they did cut away as much as we say they were throwing around blood and they were, they did cut away from the, like they didn't show pieces of the face blowing off or something like wheel of time. Good Lord. It's been a violent season. Very good. But, but yeah, they, they cut away from that. So I was a little unclear, but I was completely clear on the fact as soon as Frank said he got a phone call, I was like, we're going to see Karen. And then she shows up at the car.

[01:08:16] Luke, how were you? Were you worried? We wouldn't see her at all. No. Cause I watched the credits. Cause I, I, I, I, I, I like the credit sequence. Yeah. Yeah. I was excited to see her back. Also, like, I, I don't know how you two feel. I know Luke, you know, you want Karen and,

[01:08:46] and Matt to be end game. And I'm like, yes, end game. But she and Frank have some wicked chemistry. And, um, that whole, just like that exchange where he offered her coffee and she said, no, I'm like, Ooh, that was about more than coffee. But I also have to ask about that exchange. Did Frank chew his pain pills? Yes. Like there's no reason. Really weird. I tell you, this guy's a monster and you ship it in with Karen. What is happening here? Not end game,

[01:09:16] not end game, but come on. What is going on here? She can help him. The most interesting thing to me about Frank. Help him kill more efficiently. What are you talking about? Help pull him back. Help him rediscover his humanity. There is no pulling Frank Castle back. I disagree. Oh my God. And if anyone can do it. At least you can fix him. No, Karen can fix him. Um, but yeah, no, Frank, read the bottle. You're not supposed to do that,

[01:09:45] but it's really bad for you. It's nothing. It's not, it's going to taste bad. It's going to be just stuck in like the grooves of your teeth. Like there's no benefit to doing it that way, bro. Yeah. Hmm. Also I did like, I did like the lights go out and there's not one, there's not a damn thing in here that will make you pop a coffee. It's like, we don't all live in a fort. We don't all live in a fort. Yeah.

[01:10:13] But I like just having these original characters together and the way they call each other out, you know, like Karen says to him, you know what, Frank, I'm not buying it. I don't believe you don't care. And then later I loved, okay. So I don't think either of you have watched interview with the vampire. Um, but there is a thing in season one where Lestat Sam, Sam Reed delivers this iconic line from Lestat. He said, I heard your hearts dancing.

[01:10:41] And that is exactly what Matt did to Karen. And then she's like, no, really wait, both of us. Run, Karen, run. But also like, she said, you know, were you listening to my heart when I saw you as well? And I was like, yeah, yes. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. It's very sweet. Yeah. Must've been the adrenaline. I loved the avocados at law. Just, yeah.

[01:11:11] Yeah. Like, I mean, I think that's why it works for me. You know, she says to him about foggy, he knew all of you. I do too. And I think that's why the chemistry works between that original crew. Yeah. And there's, there's been nothing, there's nothing like that. There's nothing comparable to that in this season. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that's on purpose. Yeah. I think that's on purpose, you know, because Matt is, I think you probably, I think it's wrong. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:11:41] I think you're probably right, John, but he did make some of the earlier episodes in the season, a bit, a bit of a slog. I agree. Yeah. I agree. I totally agree. But I, I just think that they want to isolate Matt where, you know, he doesn't have his, you know, the people who know him best around and how does he deal with that? You know, how does he come through that? How does he, you know, operate without foggy, without Karen there to,

[01:12:08] to bounce ideas off because they do know him at his best and at his worst. All right. So what do we do with that to incorporate a whole new, new cast of people into your life where you, you're thinking you're, because Matt for this season, you know, started off thinking that there is no more daredevil. Mm-hmm. Right. So I'm on a new path. There's no daredevil. I'm going to worry about that stuff. Turns out,

[01:12:37] kind of got to worry about that stuff. Mm-hmm. And now you don't have the people that you, you know, around you who you would be able to lean on when that stuff, you know, bubbles to the fore. And, you know, it's, yeah, it's taken this toll on him. And to have Karen and Frank, you know, back in his life who know, and he doesn't have to hide anything from them, you know? Yeah. And they tell him as much like, yo,

[01:13:05] you don't got to behave in a way that, you know, we know it's not you. Mm-hmm. Because we already know who you are, bro. Like, come on, what are you doing here? so it's, I think it works. It worked for me. And we'll get to see if Foggy really is dead in season two. Yeah, come on. Just do the, yeah, do the witness protection program story, please. It's the,

[01:13:34] it's the, the line in Who Shot Mr. Burns? He was taken to a hospital and from his dad. He was taken to a better hospital and his condition was upgraded to alive. Yeah. That's it. I will say, this is, this is not just, this is something that I didn't like, right? And it's not just the, the show. The idea of, I'm a native New York. You know, and I get it's an alternate universe. I get that.

[01:14:04] Right. But this idea of this, the blackout would cause this descent into absolute madness madness in New York city. That trope is so much bullshit that I, it just makes me, it makes my skin crawl when I watch these things. Right. So. Yeah. I know there, there were two major blackouts. There one in the seventies did descend into madness,

[01:14:34] but then there was the one in 2003. Were you living there then? That one was. Yes. I was here in 2003. My family is here in the seventies. So. The seventies, the blackout, the environment for that was totally different. Yeah. I think that's what they're setting up with this. Right. Cause in 2003, everyone was chill. Right. No, we're not chill. There was no, there's never a chill in New York city. There's no chill. You know, there's no chill here. I mean, it wasn't like there was rampant looting or something.

[01:15:03] There's no chill here. There's no chill. But the environment was, was, you know, in the seventies, you know, this city was a very different city as far as, you know, how people lived. Right. And how they could not live. That is very different from what it is today. Wasn't the one in the seventies, like in the middle of summer. And it was quite. In the middle of summer, there was a heat wave. There were, I think it was the summer of Sam as well. It was.

[01:15:33] Cause it's in the, I only know that cause it's in the Spike Lee. Yeah. Right. Great movie. But yeah, just, so there's a whole bunch of things going, going on. This, the city was devoid, especially in, in the, you know, black and Latino neighborhoods was devoid of services, you know, bombed out, burnt out buildings, all this stuff, you know, that, that could lead to the environment that it was. Right. I think about the movie warriors too, with that. Yeah. A little bit of,

[01:16:03] with like the, the vibe of the city. Yeah. Right. But that's not the city. Right. That, that was a very particular part of the history of New York city. Right. No, what I, what I'm saying is like, if everyone, if you watch, what was the, the Leonardo DiCaprio, Daniel Day Lewis movie. Gangs of New York. Gangs of New York. Right.

[01:16:30] If you took that vibe from gangs of New York. And every time you have a issue of New York city, you put that vibe onto screen. That's what that, that's what that. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, I understand that people are like, Oh, this, this New York feels a bit too like Gotham. But given that they are going for that, I do think they should have leaned more.

[01:16:57] That was another reason why they should have done more of the muse story, because that sets up, you know, there's a serial killer on the loose and people are right. Right. And we talked about that the last time together was that there was no sense of, you know, what that meant to the people living in the city. Right. To have this mass murderer, serial killer walking around 60 people disappeared, mostly from marginalized, you know, minority communities.

[01:17:26] And there's nothing about how that is affecting those communities. Right. Really. So when I saw the flashes of people dancing on car rules and, you know, fires in the trash can, like I was here in 03 and we, you know, people were putting candles on their stoops. You know what I mean? We were outside, like outside, outside, you know, in 03, chilling,

[01:17:55] like just walking, walking, walking the block. See, I said chilling. You mocked me. No, no, that's what I'm saying. Not a mark, but it's just like you were outside. There was, you know, yeah. So it was a different vibe. And, and the idea of New York as a lawless city is so, that trope is so overdone in popular culture that it's just, it annoys the shit out of me. Okay.

[01:18:24] And then watching that and then thinking of the Batman movies, right? With that, obviously trying to make, whether they did it intentionally or not, draw these comparisons, right? I'm drawing these comparisons between the New York that they presented in the series and the Gotham that we get into Batman movies. Um, Batman and daredevil are not the same. Yeah. Right. But in this, this comic arc where Fisk becomes mayor,

[01:18:55] isn't a key part of it, sort of the descent into lawlessness and why he starts his task force. And no, it's Fisk manipulating people into believing that there's a sense of lawlessness. Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm saying when there is none, it's a manufactured, it's a manufactured crisis. Right. So again, I, I just,

[01:19:20] I don't think the Gotham of the DC universe in the New York city of the MCU should match each other. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess maybe, um, I just think of it as like a, you know, this is the alternate universe where Freeport means something a little bit different and red hook is a Freeport. And, um, maybe it's easier. Like in my mind, I don't think about it as the New York city in our world. It's just, no, no, no. It would be easier in my mind to call it something else.

[01:19:50] Almost like, that's my beef. Yes. I agree with you. That is my beef about the real New York and the portrayal of New York city on screen. What I'm saying specific to these, you know, superhero comic book universes, the DC, New York city, Gotham, whatever you want to call it. And the Marvel New York city are not the same. Right. They don't represent the same things to the universes that they're in.

[01:20:19] Gotham is considered to be a lawless, dark, gloomy. There's no sunlight in this, in this city type of town, right? New York city in the Marvel universe is not that. Yeah. It's not that New York city is Spider-Man is hopeful with fantastic four being headquartered here. The Avengers are headquartered there. You know what I mean? So there is a difference in tone to both of these cities and both of their universes.

[01:20:49] And I feel like sometimes specifically with this series that it was almost as as trying to, to, to make it into a Gotham light. And I didn't like that. Okay. I mean, I do, I do like that. They make more moral ambiguity in the fact that there is, if there is an extra lawlessness, then you can understand a bit better why people might support Fisk. Although.

[01:21:19] Yeah. If I think about other like real world examples, it is true that often it's manufactured where it just doesn't exist. Yeah. Fisk is manufacturing a crisis. It's not, it's not a crisis. He's blatantly lying. Yeah. Right. And making, and pulling on people's, you know, fears and, and, you know, heartstrings or whatever. So he's manufacturing this in order to, you know, do the things that he wants to do. But again, I just, I,

[01:21:48] I don't want the Marvel cinematic universe, TV shows or whatever, to try to emulate the tone of certain locales in the DC universe, because they're really, I mean, I don't mind variety in tone because weren't, weren't the Netflix series dark in tone? And I had a problem with that. Okay. I love the Netflix series. You know that I love them. But again,

[01:22:17] the portrayal of the city itself, I felt kind of leaned into again, Gotham in the DC universe, New York city in the Marvel universe is not Gotham. Okay. Okay. So I have a complaint. That's kind of the opposite of what Luke was saying in a way, Luke, you were complaining about the dark screens and you wanted to spotlight. I'm complaining that I think it was cool that the, they showed how clear the sky was above New York because of the blackout. Although I still think that was unrealistic.

[01:22:47] But there were floodlights where Matt and Karen were. So they shouldn't have had to been able to see the sky that clearly under the floodlights, but it was interesting. Matt said, the city's not dark. It's like a thousand suns. And then you see stars in the sky that really are, you know, millions of suns. Yeah. I didn't, I, I took that as more his senses. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Multiple layers. Yeah. I didn't think, yeah.

[01:23:16] I didn't think about it as far as the sky. I didn't think about that. That's, that's a good point. Just, just one thing. One thing I wanted to pick up on is the, the, the Vox pops and the little sort of document, documentary sort of handheld footage that they've been, that they've been cutting in throughout the season. It was that meant to go somewhere. It feels like that was meant to go somewhere that it never got. Like what was that just there for atmosphere?

[01:23:47] It failed. Yeah. Who was, who was shooting that footage and why and what for? Why is it that? Well, it was BB. It was BB. Yeah. It was BB shooting that footage. Okay. I actually quite liked that stuff because it was kind of, it was the only way we really saw. And I suppose this was probably something that the new show runner came up with to intersperse, you know, elements of the story. But we got,

[01:24:15] it was the only way we got to see what people in the street were actually thinking. I wish we had more reactions. Yes. Yes. Yes. We needed more of that to build up the sense of, you know, of fear that people would have had in order to be, you know, willing to seed everything that they seeded to Fisk. I never got that. Yeah. With these short vision nets. I didn't get that. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

[01:24:45] Let's move on to the last section. Fisk's new regime slash the resistance. Fisk promotes Daniel Blake to deputy mayor of communications and gives Heather the title commissioner of mental health. Fisk's campaign director, Sheila Rivera exposes commissioner Gallo's attempt to undermine Fisk, who brutally kills him. Meanwhile, Fisk fights the AVTF in red hook, but is defeated. Sorry. Yeah. Frank fights the AVTF in red hook, but is defeated.

[01:25:15] Fisk declares martial law, outlaws, vigilante ism, and secretly imprisons Jack Duquesne, Frank castle, and other dissidents in red hook. And, uh, Murdoch recruits cherry detective, Angie Kim, and other honest police officers to save the city. Um, first of all, we got to talk about that kill. That was definitely that head squeezing thing. Uh, they, there's a short thing on the,

[01:25:43] I forget it's on YouTube somewhere. One of the official channels, um, Marvel, I guess probably where they showed how they did the model of like how he squeezed it in, but that was brutal. Definitely a call back to the, uh, head door bashing from the original series. Yeah. Is it, I've got a question for you. Is it actually physically possible to do that? He's super strong. I don't know. I mean, he's not super strong, but he's super strong. Yeah. I don't know if you can do it physically,

[01:26:13] but God damn. Lord have mercy. Yeah. This is, this is the thing. If it were physically possible to do it, I absolutely believe that Vincent. Enough row could do it. If anybody could do it, he could. He sells it. I'm just curious. He sells that. Whether you actually could or not. Man. That was, that was not like I'm going to go out and try it or anything. Are you sure? I want, I want, I want somebody to do like a YouTube video of that with a melon just to see how,

[01:26:42] whether you can actually do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that, that was talk about a show of power, right? Yeah. I mean, and, and the fact that he had everyone lined up to watch. Yes. And you can see that there, like that, that Luke guy, not Luke cage, hashtag wrong. Luke double wrong. Luke, not wrong. I wasn't there either. Um,

[01:27:11] but he was looking like he did not like the look of that. Yeah. He's looking like he was having some doubts about that tattoo on his neck. Um, when he saw that hat go down. So you got to wonder how many other people might be feeling. The same. Sure. I have to ask. Okay. Since you, you don't like how they're drawing the parallels with New York. What did you think about the fact he has this safer street initiative,

[01:27:38] which quote unquote makes stop and frisk look like daycare. Yeah. It's the same shit that this bullshit mayor that we have right now in real life is doing. You know, it's the same crap. So it, it, the parallels between what's happening in real life and, and what's going on in the show. You can't help, but escape. Yeah. To see, you can't escape, you can't escape it. Right. you, it, they're there. Everything that,

[01:28:08] that I'm experiencing being here. Um, you know, a lot of it is being, you know, shown in this series. Like I, you know, from the very beginning, you know, of Trump's ascent, I was like, yeah, this guy's doing a riff on King Quinn. Mm. Like somebody watched the show and like, Hey, you go be that. Do that. Do what this guy's doing. This is who you are. This, this, you know, bravado, this, the mannerisms.

[01:28:37] A lot of he's, he's done a great acting job. You know, he really has. Um, so you see a lot of the parallels, at least I can, to what's happening in present, in present time, which is why I call into question, you know, Sheila Rivera's role. Um, in being complicit. Heather's role in being complicit with, you know, what, you know, this criminal is actually doing safer streets. You know,

[01:29:06] this is the current mayor of New York city, you know, brought back a notorious, you know, task force of police officers, um, who basically brought back stop and frisk, right? Full force. So these are things that, um, are actually happening in, in the city. Um, the thing, again, I'm going back to the Gotham, New York city thing, like the Batman daredevil thing.

[01:29:36] It just felt like that, that scene in the bar. I'm like, okay, who's commissioner Gordon, right? Who, who is Barbara? Who's Oracle? You know, I'm in my mind. I'm, I'm, I'm looking at all of these things and I'm, I'm just saying to myself, like the Batman comparisons. I'll just there. And I don't know if,

[01:30:03] if the showrunners intended for me to think that way, or if I'm just too much of a jaded comic book, you know, reader to can't help, but to think that way. Right. So I'll, I'm really interested in what happens in, in season two, if they continue this, you know, dark night daredevil situation. Um, but again, that's something that I didn't, I didn't like, like, like Luke said, that voiceover that they did, you know,

[01:30:32] that could have been a trailer for season two, you know, it's very much Batman, very much, very much dark night ish, you know? And I don't want that. Personally, these are the things that I have problems with in the show. And they're like little subtle things that, you know, I, I picked up on that I didn't appreciate. And I really want to see how they, you know, go forward from here if they continue on that trend.

[01:31:02] Okay. I mean, I see also a lot of the, you know, parallels with real life, like the fact that, uh, Fisk has the courts and the cops, and that's kind of the scariest thing, you know? Right. Um, although, I mean, some of it, yeah, I do still have the feeling that some of it is just a little bit over the top. Like the, when they shoot the young kid and then put the, um, thing over his face and say like, whoa, we're just killing a vigilante. Like,

[01:31:31] so I, I guess that would exist that there would be, there are definitely will be people who are drawn to positions where you can wield guns, um, who just want to kill for the sake of it. But I feel like it misses the nuance a bit, uh, of these real life situations in a way. I don't love. Um, and also like, come on, it's nobody going to notice that the commissioner not only resigned, but is completely missing. No,

[01:32:00] they notice they're going to notice. And I'm sure they have noticed. Mm. So you think, yeah, that's going to, do you think that'll be a plot point in season two? It has to be. Yeah. I would, I would, I would think so. And also like, like you would, like, like you were saying, Alicia, I think there's a good possibility that like Luke, the cop becomes like a deep throat for, uh, BB. The,

[01:32:30] the Walter. Okay. Okay. Yeah. That's a good call. Yeah. I was thinking of also that young, the, the other cop that was there when the kid got gunned down. Cause he looked like he was questioning his whole role and everything as well. Possibly. But I thought it was interesting that they, they went out of their way to give Luke a name. That time. Right. And a bit of a sort of backstory. So. Right. It's going to struck me that you, you don't do that for a character.

[01:32:59] You're not going to. Invest in. You're not going to use it. Yeah. Or just, yeah. If he was just dry, if he was just the commissioner chauffeur, like why have that conversation? And why have him? Yeah. Right. I mean, I do wonder, well, first of all, like the fact that Fisk doesn't even mention being saved by someone taking a bullet in his speech, but everyone knows that that happened. It was a quite public thing. Is the public going to start to see him differently and turn on him in a broader sense?

[01:33:28] And also do either of you agree? I thought Buck Cashman was, and even Vanessa at the very end, when she saw the cages, we're starting to look uneasy. Nah, nah, nah. You don't think Buck Cashman was looking uneasy at all? Nah. I, I, I don't know. I need to rewatch. Okay. I mean, He was. Vanessa is kind of hard to tell with Vanessa because her default expression is to look

[01:33:58] slightly uneasy. I think that's just, I think that's just the way her face rests. She has resting on easy face. But yeah, no, I'm, I'm with you, Alicia. I did think for like a fraction of a second, it was like, Ooh, you know, we're all right. We're all right. We're all right. Putting random artists in cages, but do we really want to put like the rich and influential of the Sith? Do we really want to, might we be pushing our luck just a little bit too far here? Yeah.

[01:34:29] Yeah. I love, I mean, I think they are trying to tell us something about Vanessa and the fact that she was still dressed in red at the end. And they had this moment where she's like lingering with the, they do the cheers where they reach out and they have that rabbit in a snowstorm, that white, all white painting that still has fists, blood splatter from when he fought Matt at the end of a daredevil, the original daredevil season three. And the way they show her sitting in front of it.

[01:34:57] And so when she reaches out to cheers and Fisk cheers, they do the cheers and Fisk pulls back and her arm is still hanging out there for a moment. And you see that she is exactly as long as that blood splatter in the painting. Like they're sort of trying to frame her as a blood splatter herself. Yeah. And also the look on Wilson Fisk face in that moment, he's really happy. Like in that moment, when they're doing the clenching glasses,

[01:35:26] he's really content. Bless him. Yeah. That's the scary part of his character, right? Yeah. And also like that, when he's giving the speech, it's really weird. Why is he standing sort of behind the desk? And he's not even standing like flush behind the desk. He's standing off to like one side of it. Like, why isn't he sitting down? That's really, it's really weird for me. He's doing, he's doing stuff. You, when you're doing stuff, you don't sit down. When you're on top of, of everything,

[01:35:55] you got to stand up. He wants to intimidate everyone who's watching. Yeah. Yeah. You got to let them know I'm, I'm here. I'm doing things. I'm not, I'm not taking it easy behind the desk. But you can tell how petty he is because the cages, you can't even stand up in the cages and there's plenty of room above the cages. Like he could have bigger cages, but he just is like, no dog kennels is good. And Frank is the only one in chains because he's legitimately afraid of Frank. Yeah. Well, yeah, that makes any difference,

[01:36:24] but we'll get to that in a minute. I love, I love the, the song choice. Everything in the right place by radio head was a perfect song choice. Cause it's like, you can't go wrong with that song. Everything in its right place, because it is both saying like on the surface, it sounds like it means what the title says, but the song is actually about the opposite. But that,

[01:36:54] that song gets used a lot in that kind of, in that kind of scene. Because it's good. Okay. Okay. All right. Well, before we get to the Frank stuff at the end, um, what do you guys think about this team up that's happening on the other side? We have daredevil in costume in Josie's. Is that putting Josie in danger? Because she seems like she doesn't look too sure. Also, she can look after herself.

[01:37:24] She's got a shotgun. You know, she's got a shotgun. Why is her bar still not open more than a year later? She said she didn't think she didn't know if the community wanted it to be up. Well, I guess maybe that will be like a big thing at the end of season two, a victory moment. Yeah. When foggy comes back. And she going to be the next to find out because she's like, she noticed Matt didn't use his cane and cherry's like, I didn't notice. It's like, well done, cherry.

[01:37:55] Way to be cool. Way not to draw even more attention. I really, you are not. Yes. I want to be into cherry as a character, but he's not doing much for me yet. No, no. I'm more, I'm more excited about the possibilities of Kirsten. I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what they're going to do with cherry. Hmm. Okay. Let's talk punisher. So we've got the fan boys hunting the punisher, non-lethals only. We just want to talk. So they're trying to recruit him.

[01:38:24] He's basically tells them to, to their faces. Like you idolize me. And I, you are exactly the type of people that I want to kill. Watch me go for it. But then even after he kills a bunch of them and gets locked up guard, Anthony Petruchio, the fan boy from Jersey wants to shake his hand. And it's like, Anthony, I'm sorry. I'm sure you're a nice guy. You know, nobody ever thinks of the henchman,

[01:38:54] but I'm sorry, dude, you are just too stupid to live. If I'm in a room with, if I'm in the room with the punisher, I'm standing on the opposite wall. I am not, I am not getting within 10 feet of that guy. But these, but these, but these people are so, you know, like sure of themselves that they're on, you know, the same side, even when he's in a cage, this guy is like, you know, I can, I can talk to him. You know what I mean?

[01:39:24] He, I can shake his hand. He's, you know, he's got to see, I'm, I'm, I'm, we're the same, you know, we're doing the same thing, you know, right. That's, that's sort of blind, you know, hubris and, and not only stupidity, just to, just to think that, you know, Frank, after all that you've just witnessed, I've heard, maybe he wasn't there and saw, but you've heard, I'm sure to even think that you could go over there and shake this man's hand. Come on.

[01:39:53] You know, you know what, you know what, you know what that's, that scene really reminded me of the, um, the scene in silence of the lambs where the two prison, where, um, kind of elect to kills, kills the two prison guards. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's the same kind of, it's the same kind of thing. The guy is being polite. Celebrity. Yeah. The guy is a celebrity. He's being polite. He's come on. He's, he's allegedly, you know, playing by the rules.

[01:40:24] All of a sudden, God forgets. They're guarding. They forget what they're guarding. But why, I mean, Fisk should not be letting anyone with one of those Punisher tattoos, guard the Punisher. Come on. Why not? Because that's, they're likely to fan boy and to do something stupid because of a fan boy. It should be someone who just doesn't, you know, isn't, doesn't idolize the man they're guarding. I don't think he's thinking like that personally.

[01:40:54] He should be though. I'm saying he should be. Yeah, no, it's just, it is. It's, it's a, it's a classic case of you are a henchman who is too stupid to live. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think Fisk from the moment that he crushed the commissioner's head. It was like, you know, I got these guys. Yeah. Well, that's the thing is, so the henchman got his arm broken. I bet Frank just let him lay there screaming in pain. Um,

[01:41:23] but Fisk might finish the job. Yeah. No, I think Frank. You think, do you think Frank? I think Frank let out the others, but I feel like you're going to tell me you don't think he did. The others in the case. I feel like he would have let them out. I don't think so. I'm with you. Frank Castle doesn't give a shit about that. You guys don't understand Frank Castle the way I do. But okay. Okay.

[01:41:53] I'm buying you a Punisher t-shirt for Christmas. We have, um, the, the Punisher special presentation coming up. This is only going to be like our third or fourth special presentation. If you count the documentary. Um, but so John Bernthal who plays Frank Castle is writing it himself with director Reinaldo Marcus green, uh, and green. I know him. He did movies like King Richard and Bob Marley one love, which I didn't, I didn't love those movies, but, um,

[01:42:23] they also, they work together on we own the city. I heard a lot of good things about we own the city. I know you guys both like the wire. Do you watch, did you watch we own the city? I watch we own the, we own the, we own the city is fine, but it's, it's not the wire. I mean, it's just not. Yeah. That's a big, big boots to fill. Yeah. And I like, I thought King Richard was cool. I didn't, I didn't dislike King Richard. I didn't see the bar. Is that the one about the, the, the, um, the,

[01:42:53] the William sisters. The William sisters. Yes. Yeah. The one that Will Smith got his Oscar for the year. Yeah. I think it was cool. I think it was a good movie. I didn't know. Yeah. It was just the writing on both of those. I wasn't thrilled with. So I'm hoping that John Bernthal's, I don't, I think this is John Bernthal's going to be his first writing credit. So I'm not really sure what he's bringing to the table. Yeah. But I believe he understands those characters. Yeah. Yeah. Like I've said before, he inhabits Frank Castle. Um,

[01:43:22] so if, if anybody's, if anybody's going to understand the essence of Frank Castle, I'm confident that it's going to be John Bernthal. Yeah. Well, it's this special presentation. So it'll be a one-off thing. And then the past, those have been like 45, 50 minutes long. That, that sort of thing. Um, it's coming in 2026 officially. And apparently around the same time as season two, which is coming. It's a season two of daredevil born against filming.

[01:43:51] Now it's slated for a March, 2026 release. So I don't know if like the punisher, does that mean that Frank's not going to be so much in that season? If they're around the same time, or are these stories going to tie together or what's the, yeah. I'm very curious. I'm hoping to tie together. Mm-hmm. Me too. Me too. Definitely hoping they tie together, but then why do this separate, uh, this separate one-off thing at the same time? That's what I'm wondering.

[01:44:20] To give the punisher some shine. All right. All right. Okay. I'm, I mean, I'm, I'm there for it. Don't be an equine. Don't be an equine. You know what I'm saying? Listen, Rand needs to be grounded. Okay. Sorry. This is wheel of time stuff. Rand needs to remember that he is human. I want, Frank to get a shot. You got to get a 45 minutes shot. I want, I want him to have, have his own special, but not if that means he's not in the regular season.

[01:44:50] Right. But I, I'm hoping that we tie it. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. We, we want them to tie it. Yeah. Okay. Um, so what, what are you guys hoping for season two? Apparently Dario Scardipani, the showrunner, he says that it's a better oiled machine and it's going to be eight episodes long. Um, I want the Netflix heroes back. Mm hmm. And I want some,

[01:45:20] like you, I want Kristen to really step into a, uh, fully flesh, fully competent and knowing character. Yeah. I don't want her sideline next season. I don't want her sideline next season. Yeah. And Sherry too. I want him to be more, I don't know, to have more to him other than just being like, Matt, Matt, don't do that.

[01:45:50] Matt. But I want Kirsten and, uh, sorry, not Heather. I want Kirsten and Karen to be besties. That'll be cool. Yeah. That'll be. Matt said, we need an army. Uh, do we think, I mean, so I'm hoping that we're going to see more defenders, probably Jessica Jones. I'm, uh, thinking might be first, maybe also Luke Cage. Um, do we think the hand is coming back and with it, Electra? No,

[01:46:19] no, I, I feel like we already did the hand and I, I'm only okay with revisiting the hand if we get everyone else from. Right. Right. I don't think they're going to do the hand. I don't think so. There are people who want Spider-Man or Moon Knight, but I don't think we're getting either of those because I just, I don't think so either. First of all, Spider-Man would be distracting and Matt shouldn't even remember who that is because of, um, Dr. Stranger spells. And Moon Knight, I think he just needs,

[01:46:49] he needs, he needs another season of his own show or a special presentation or something to flesh that out more, but I don't know that he fits into this grounded universe as is. Right. But I'm, I'm assuming we get Angela Del Toro as white tiger. We saw a glimpse of her at the end. Yes. Yes. Hopefully. Yeah. What do you, okay. What do you hope happens between Fisk and Vanessa? Oh gosh.

[01:47:20] Man, that's, uh, I hope they go to jail together. Or at least like, or if they don't go to jail together, I hope they like, you know, go down the ship together. Mm-hmm. I don't see that happening in season two. Cause I think Disney, I, my sense of it is that Disney is making a long-term investment in these characters. So obviously we've only got season two firmed,

[01:47:48] but I kind of, I would expect that we're going to have like multiple seasons. I'm a little bit worried that it's only an eight episode run. Cause I did feel like this, probably this season could have benefited from another couple of episodes. So the, the, the new storyline had a bit, the new storyline had a bit more chance to breathe. I think eight, eight episodes is asking a lot in terms of developing, uh, uh, a story arc that is,

[01:48:17] that is properly fleshed out and done in a, in a hours with, with these characters and how rich the universe is. So I'm a little bit worried that eight episodes isn't really given the thing chance to breathe. I'd, I'd be more comfortable if it was a 10, 12 episode run. I think eight is a, eight is a very demanding number. Um, that's all I'd like, obviously I'd like to see,

[01:48:46] we take as read that I'd like to see the relationship between, um, Karen and, and Matt develop. I'm kind of in the same head space with Matt and Karen that I am with Halston and Alison on, uh, silo. I just want them to be like that, have their own little like happy day style sitcom. I think if Matt and Karen get together now, they won't stay together. So I prefer that be delayed because I feel like Matt has his own unhinged ex to deal with. Well,

[01:49:14] I got people just get together with the people I want them to get together with and be happy. Damn it. Um, I'd like to, I'd like to see a few more of the, the, the side characters get a bit more developed. I'd like to know what's going on with BB and Daniel. I'd like to, I'd like to know a bit more about book and where he's come from and what he wants to get out of this, uh, working for Fisk. Like I don't, this is why I say I'm not,

[01:49:43] I'd prefer there to be more episodes because not everything has to be focused every episode on Matt or Fisk. I feel like I want some of the side characters to have a bit more time to, to breathe and to grow and sort of develop out the world a bit more. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Um, I, I am glad that they're like concentrating, hopefully keeping, you know,

[01:50:11] on the characters that they have introduced this season, like bring back white tiger, bring back bullseye. I do wonder if this might be a case of a reluctant team up between Matt and bullseye against the Fisks. And as far as Heather, I hope there are, they're done. I'm just, I don't need any more of Matt and Heather, but like, I wouldn't just go all the way with her then and just make her a full out villain. Give her more agency.

[01:50:42] Yeah. I hope that she does become like a full fledged villain. Like you said, just totally lean into the complicity with, with Fisk. Totally lean on to you. Want it to be a celebrity, be a Dr. Oz. You know, that's cruel. Yeah. Nobody deserves that fate. So, yeah, that's, that's what I want to see from her.

[01:51:09] But the last thing I'll say about season two is that I'm wondering if there will be anything to tie into what's going to happen next summer with the Russo brothers and doomsday, anything like that. If there's any footprints of, or any tidbits about that, would that seep into the, into the series? I've got to say,

[01:51:38] I kind of hope not. I really don't like this idea that every Marvel property has to tie in to every other Marvel property. See, like I don't want, I don't want to have to watch every series with like a cork board of various plot points about all ties together. But you shouldn't have to, but I want them to deliver that for those of us who do enjoy that. And they have been under delivering on that lately.

[01:52:04] I would like to see more interconnectivity and more payoffs for the things they've already seeded. And they should always, it should be something that you can just watch this and nothing else. But for those of us who want this whole interconnected world, yeah, that's, that's the promise of the MCU deliver on it now. Okay. If we think about where they're headed. So a reboot, whatever we want to call it, it's happening, right? It's going to happen.

[01:52:32] So I want to just see if there's any, you know, traces of that to seep into the story of daredevil overall. Well, yeah, there was a theory that maybe they were setting up. I mean, I know, I know Vincent D'Onofrio who plays Fisk. He said that, you know, Oh, it's different contracts for the movies and the TV shows, but this could always just be playing coy and whatever.

[01:52:57] But I did see a theory that this New York could be one of the battle worlds in secret wars. Right. Right. And I didn't see that one, but I could, yeah, that could make sense. That makes sense. That could make sense. So we'll see. Yeah. All right. Well, to book bookend our episode with a feedback from Kevin W. He also said, what a finale. Who thought the defenders were behind those sliding doors? Yeah. We all, we all hoped next season, next season. Yeah. Uh,

[01:53:27] he says, thanks for the great coverage and some daredevil comics to keep me going. And so I, I thought like, yeah, let's, let's shout out some daredevil comics that, um, that people who want more of this story or want to prep for season two might want to read. And, uh, I'll shout out a few. And I don't know if you have any, you want to add John, but of course the, it's called born again. So you can read the iconic born again series from Frank Miller from the eighties, like 85 and 86 is when it came out. Um,

[01:53:56] season one was a lot of it was based on devil's reign from 2021 season two. Uh, there's been speculation that Vincent D'Onofrio said he can neither confirm nor deny, but it's a very good question that season two will be, uh, largely based on shadow land from 2010 that at least they'll be pulling elements from that. And that one does also include Angela del Toro as a white tiger,

[01:54:25] but to see her story leading into that, you need to watch daredevil. I mean, to read daredevil volume two, number one 13 is it's sort of, I mean, she gets like the treatment, like Electra got in season two of the original daredevil is what happens with Angela del Toro in these comics. Kind of a version thereof. Yeah. I don't know if there's any favorite daredevil comics you wanted to shout out John or anything. No, I think those are,

[01:54:54] those are great. The born again, the shadow land, um, devil. Yeah. And if you want to get into like, they, they've just started a whole brand new arc. So you don't really have to know what, what happened beforehand. Um, there's a new, um, series that just started brand new arc. Um, which I got the, the first issue of is daredevil number 20. Um, that just came out two weeks ago, three weeks ago.

[01:55:23] So it sets up what Matt is going to do forward. And I think it's a really great episode, a great episode, a great comic, a great issue, um, to just, you know, get into where Matt Murdock is and what his role is going to be in the future. So it's a good starting point. If you want to get it, some comics right now. Right. Yeah. And if you guys want more comic recommendations, definitely join our discord discussion under the, under comics versus under affiliates,

[01:55:53] Sean drops comic book reps, but Rex, but we also have entire forums dedicated to Marvel, including daredevil and the upcoming thunderbolts movie. And we have a DC forum and all that. Um, so yeah, John, you and I will be back shortly after the movie releases. It releases April 30th here and may 2nd there. So yes, thunderbolts asterisk, and we'll finally know what the asterisk is about. Yeah. What it's about. So I'm excited for this movie. Actually.

[01:56:22] I'm really excited for this movie. The marketing has been really good. It seems very Alicia coded. I am. Yeah. Very much looking forward to it. Bob looks like he's going to be a lot to handle. A badass. Yeah. Yeah. Um, also in the network, we're just wrapping up the wheel of time coverage. We're going to have one more mailbag episode. And actually we were hoping that John would join for that. Give that a cool non reader perspective. I'm down. Definitely check out.

[01:56:52] My episode was John of that was released after episode seven, a wheel of time to pre finale that, uh, we got all your insights and, and the long line, the long list of people who were going to go kick rocks. The list is long. Most of this cast can join them. I mean, not the cast, the characters, you know what I mean? Characters. Yeah. Yeah. Not the real people. I'm not that bad. I'm not that bad.

[01:57:22] On the Lord's feed. We're also this full coverage of the last of us that, uh, John and David are doing, and we're all pitching in on and, or everyone's getting involved in and, or coverage. Um, and John and I, and Ian from captain's pod, we kind of accidentally started doing full coverage of Dr. Who. We'll see how that continues, but I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about and,

[01:57:51] or coverage is like the low hand cinematic universe. Everybody, everybody's getting. It's the Avengers. Yeah. Lorehounds. It's like, Lorehounds. Lorehounds. Yeah. Yes. Um, yeah. So subscribers, you have access to ad free versions of all of these episodes and also all the extra episodes for wheel of time severance and or et cetera. The,

[01:58:21] you know, John and I are talking as soon as there's more time, we're definitely doing more extra episodes. Like we're going to do that ranking of the Fox villain verse, or sorry, Sony villain verse. Um, but the, and there's also 11 Z's movie club this month is a real pain, but do check out the link tree for all the other affiliates on the network. And nevermind. And the music is going strong with weekly episodes, looking at science and psychology together.

[01:58:49] Radioactive ramblings has also been busy with Ghibli and, uh, several animated series. And, uh, yeah. And it seems like Aaron's going to be joining you and I, Sean for a peacemaker. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's going to be fun. It's going to be fun. And of course, check out we'll shift us the star Wars canon timeline pub podcast rings and rituals and properly Howard movie reviews. And, uh, we still want to hear your feedback, even though this season's over, we're going to be doing more Marvel coverage. So if you send us daredevil feedback now,

[01:59:18] we'll include it in our thunderbolts, breakdown, et cetera. So send that to MCU at the lore hounds.com. You'll find that link in the show notes. And, and Luke, how's it going with, it could be said your podcast. Um, so we did our last episode on Trump's tariff extravaganza. I've got to say, like trying to do a current affairs podcast at the moment is more or less impossible because I just want some consistency. I just want this guy to go on 24 hours without fundamentally changing his mind. Um,

[01:59:49] if, yeah. Um, so we did one, we did one on that. I don't think we're recording this week because it's half term. Um, it's, it's Easter break for school kids. So I think Will is looking after his kids this week. So I doubt we're going to record this week, but we'll probably pick up something next week. Okay. All right. Okay. And, uh, that brings us to the reading of the names. And, you know, I got, uh,

[02:00:17] I got some music this time in honor of Frank. Oh gosh. Out of the metal folder. Uh, it is double barrel. Oh, thank you to our discord server boosters, Eric K. Tiller, the thriller, dork of the ninjas, do 71, Athena, Jalea, Tina, let's do Nancy M ghost of partition and radioactive Richard. Thank you to all of our subscribers, especially our highest tier,

[02:00:46] the lower masters. I lost my voice a little there. That would be the Martian, Michael G, Michelle E, Brian P, SC, Peter O H, Bettina W, Adam S, Nancy M, Doob 71, Brian 80 63, Frederick H, Sarah L, Gareth C, Matthew M, Sarah M, Andra B, Kwong Yu, Dead Eye Jedi Bob, Nathan T, Alex B, Sub Zero, Aaron K, Dally B, Mothership 61, Naros,

[02:01:17] Kathy W, Le Stu, Jeffrey B, Alicia U, Neil F, Ben B, Scott F, Steven N, Julia F, Kali S, Il Mario, Lauren slash him, and I was last, Andrea. John, what do you want to say to Kevin Feige?

[02:01:48] Recast to Charlie. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities.

[02:02:16] Oh man, Alicia just killed John. The Lorehounds. The Lorehounds. The Lorehounds. The Lorehounds. The Lorehounds. The Lorehounds. If we release three episodes per week, the Lorehounds will never be able to cover every episode. The Imperial forces will crush the rebellion before it begins. Stand by. We're picking up something on our scanners. Echo Squadron reporting in. Delta Squadron on your left.

[02:02:45] Tango Squadron on your six. With Imperial forces coming in fast, we're calling all Rebels to join the fight this season. Starting after the April 22nd premiere, you'll hear three full breakdowns for each week's episodes of Andor Season 2. Each podcast will be led by one of our squadron leaders, Alicia, David, and John. We'll be bringing in new and familiar voices to fill out the roster. Search for the Lorehounds on any podcast platform to join us in a galaxy far, far away.

[02:03:11] And don't forget to check out our Season Pass for even more content like our Holocron bonus pods. It's good news for anyone except Darth Vader.