Doctor Who - S02E07 - Wish World

[00:00:17] Welcome back to the Egg in Our Face edition of the Sonic Screwcast, where the Lorehounds laugh at how the credit scene the BBC redacted from the last episode turned out to be perhaps the most important credit scene in Doctor Who history. I'm Alisha, the Ronnie's other right hand. And I'm Ian, who's nailing my introduction this week and ignoring anything I said, and hoping this wasn't the Ronnie last week.

[00:00:42] Because this week we're talking about episode 7 of season 2, or season 15 of Double New Who, Wish World, the first half of the two part season finale, and Mrs. Flood's promised end of the world. I'm just saying, it shouldn't be the Ronnie. There are so many Doctor Who villains I could have said it definitely isn't. I don't know why I had to pick the Ronnie. I'm glad that it came up last week. Oh, I'm not. I'm supposed to be the Who person.

[00:01:12] I mean, alright. John, unfortunately, maybe you have noticed, can't join us this week, but we assure you his reactions to last week's reveal and this week's episode mirror our own. And we'll hopefully be able to check back in with him for the finale for his full thoughts. He's currently bi-generating out of shock. Yes, there's going to be the John and a John. Yes, exactly. Yeah, they got us.

[00:01:36] So I have to shout out, we got an email piece of feedback from Sheldon C that said, I'm just about to explode at the fact that you guys didn't see the post-credits scene. I think you guys need to do a short episode about nothing but your utter shock of not watching the last few minutes. And honestly, we were going to. We talked about it, but it was just life stuff got in the way. It was just a... Scheduling. Anybody who's had a D&D campaign can know that scheduling just doesn't.

[00:02:03] I mean, I haven't had a D&D campaign for a couple months for that reason, yeah. There we go. I'm on a couple of years. Yeah, so we are here to talk about episode seven, Wishworld. But first, we just have to respond to that credit scene. So the redacted scene at the end of episode six was, it turns out, Mrs. Flood being revived and bi-generating into the Ronnie.

[00:02:30] So Ian, you were saying in the episode six breakdown that you weren't keen on this idea. No, not so much. Mainly for the reasons that we spoke about, which was basically every villain reveal or every mystery at the end of every season. I remember this last season, the first season of New New Who was, the Ronnie's going to show up. It's kind of always been, since we knew RTD would bring back the Daleks, the Cybermen, the Sea Demons.

[00:02:59] Like, he was literally running out of people to bring back. Then the Master came back. And we know that the Time Lords all being gone doesn't matter. He will bring back anybody he wants. He brought back Rassilon. It just, anybody can come back. So I would like to have had the opportunity to be able to work it out other than a random stab in the dark. And that's where I think mysteries, these overarching season-long mysteries work really, really well.

[00:03:29] When the clues are there when you go back and rewatch it. And the only clue I can think of is that she recognizes the TARDIS. She knows what the Time Vindicator thing does. Because for me, that's not enough for me to go, it's the Ronnie. I want, and there's more you can do. There's more you can slip in to say, this is the Ronnie. But I feel like the impact was in the shock and the surprise. And not in, oh, this mystery makes sense. Bad Wolf is a great example.

[00:03:57] Bad Wolf didn't lead to anything that we particularly knew. But all of the clues were there. And when you rewatch season one, it's very satisfying. Well, I have to say that there are a lot of people who were predicting that Mrs. Flood was going to be the Ronnie. But it could also be just for the reason you're saying, where like, for anyone who doesn't know, the Ronnie is a classic Who character, a Time Lord, and basically like the Doctor Who version of Mephisto. In the way that everyone's like, it's going to be the Ronnie.

[00:04:26] Whatever it is, the Ronnie's going to show up this time, I swear. Yeah, this time it was. I mean, there should have been a big R sealed, like across her lips. I would have bought that. That would have been great. Slip an R in somewhere. Well, give me some more Time Lord-y things. Grumble. Grumble, grumble. Yeah, I mean, there's still some questions left. And by the way, if you're not familiar with the classic Who and the Ronnie,

[00:04:49] this week's not-so-tinfoil hat theory corner is going to be dedicated to the classic Who appearances of both the Ronnie and Omega, another Time Lord that comes up this episode. Mm-hmm. But we got in the last credit scene, we got some interesting little teases. First of all, she says, my double brainstem froze. Did we know that Time Lords had double brainstems? Is that like they double everything?

[00:05:17] Well, there has been some debate about exactly what else they double biologically. But this is the first time I've heard of a double brainstem. I mean, it could be a throwaway line somewhere. Please email us if you can remember the episode. But when you have 60 odd years of law, I can believe that he said that or she said that at some point during their time. But yeah, it's not as famous as the double heart situation.

[00:05:47] Right. Also, not worthy enough of mentioning when he – who was it? The doctor's – the nurse person who said, oh, double heart show off. He didn't say double brainstem show off. Right. Yeah, but he did also say the respiratory bypass. So I guess he didn't list all of the – they leave some wiggle room to make up medical conditions for the doctor. Mm-hmm. Who'd have thought? I do wonder, though, this whole bi-generation thing.

[00:06:14] And for anyone who did not see the 60th anniversary specials, they are making them sort of unmissable. Yeah. Uh-huh. You kind of need to know that stuff. But that's when bi-generation was invented and we saw Shuti's doctor bi-generate out of David Tennant's second version of the doctor, which in just basically the same way we saw it here. Yeah. I am – I'm going to – I'm going to sound like such a party pooper this week.

[00:06:43] But the more they use by generation, the less I'm liking it. Okay. For me, the reason it really worked with Shuti and David Tennant was that David Tennant has become this bastion of modern who. Like, he is the doctor. He's a lot of people's doctor and where the show peaked. So I think giving him a satisfying send-off life where he can go and live was very comfortable for people.

[00:07:13] So I was kind of – I mean, there's three versions of him out there. Yeah, exactly. There are. And the version that we know is still out there because that's how time travel works. Like, you don't stop existing. Like, your time stream is still there. He's still doing things. So you could argue whether it's necessary at all. But for me, it worked if you want to give him specifically a send-off. That's great.

[00:07:39] But now that it's happening every time, I have more and more questions. Like, when the Rani does it, it's like, well, why hasn't this been a thing before then? Like, does she know that the doctor bigenerated and is jealous and wants to do that? And for me, the fun of regeneration is this no going back. It is – I'm a new person now. I will always remember when I was the doctor, tag, you're it. Who's next?

[00:08:07] And when you split, it doesn't feel like a death anymore. It doesn't feel like this almighty change. So the more they use it, the less I'm going to like it because the stakes of regeneration, it takes some of that away. Yeah. Um, I don't disagree with your points, but I am going to withhold judgment for now until I see where they're going with this. Like, with the Mrs. Flood of it all. Yes.

[00:08:37] It is interesting, she said. So we have – Archie Punjabi is the new, the Rani, who I think is incredible cast. Incredible? Like, just her eyes, just please stare at me. All day, I will be your minion. I'm on her side. But she stipulates that she is the Rani, and Mrs. Flood is now a Rani. So does that mean that David Tennant is now a doctor rather than the – or that version of Tennant?

[00:09:05] Yeah, that version of Tennant's doctor. This is – I like this as a nod. So this is very much – when you pass the torch on to the next actor, you then become one of the 10, one of the 11, one of the 12, one of the 13 actors. Who have played the doctor. And you are one of – one of the doctors. But the limelight is on the new person that's currently helming the TARDIS.

[00:09:29] So it felt like another RTD meta nod to the doctors of the past. And as you become one of many, you're not the sole protagonist now. So I think it's moved from Mrs. Flood being this quasi-antagonist that we knew was in the background. And our new Rani is the antagonist. Mm-hmm. So in real life, Rani means queen in Hindi.

[00:09:57] So I think – yeah, so great casting again, but also definitely fits the persona. And yeah, John brought up the legal troubles that was holding back the Rani from coming back. So I wonder if they paid that Disney money. I think it was just all – I think John manifested it into existence with that. He put forward – we both put forward – all of us put forward very logical arguments. And the storymaker behind the universe said, nah, it's going to be the Rani.

[00:10:29] I mean, I don't know. I didn't rule it out. But – and I actually did go back and watch the Rani episodes before just to, you know, just in case, just because people talk about her so much. So how did she strike you? Did you like her as a foil for the doctor? Yeah. I mean, so my favorite villain has generally been the master. And so the Rani is an interesting – you know, the Rani and the master are two of a kind

[00:10:58] in a way because they're both exiled time lords. And yeah, she – it was – I like seeing the three of them play off of each other. And I would not mind if the master showed up in the season finale. Completely agree. I would – it would make so much sense and it would kind of make a nice continuity of when the Rani shows up, often the master is there to amplify as well. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[00:11:26] Well, let's get into what happened with the Rani in this episode, episode seven, Wish World. This one was written by Russell T. Davies, as was the finale. And the official plot tease is traps are sprung and old enemies unite as the doctor and Belinda finally arrive home to find a very different world. Can the doctor see the truth before midnight arrives? Dun, dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun. It's always midnight. What did you think hot takes on this episode?

[00:11:55] I am going to be the party pooper of the week. So Alicia, you've got to build us up. You've got to – I liked the episode. Yay, that's good. This one didn't work for me. I think next week will be all the better for this episode's existence. Right. But that is very frustrating when you only have ten episodes. Eight episodes. Oh, even worse. That makes my point even better. Sorry.

[00:12:22] It really was summed up by the Rani saying, this isn't all exposition, darling, or along those lines. Sadly, it is. So yeah, the episode didn't work for me overall. There's some fun moments. I have receipts as for why this doesn't – I can see the enjoyment in it, but specifically, this was always going to be a tough sell for Ian and what I like out of Doctor Who. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. I definitely liked it better.

[00:12:50] I think I liked it the best out of the three of us, probably. I think John's in the middle. We'll have to verify with him. But this did have the kind of cliffhanger that John does not like, but I think it was expected. You know, we knew that this was part one of a two-part finale. Of course. Yes. So it was going to end on a cliffhanger. So I didn't mind that so much.

[00:13:13] I really – I liked the – I am someone who loves when they bring together different elements, especially – I mean, it has to have a meaning, but I did feel like there was a point to having these different elements brought together. And we got the payoff of why was Mrs. Flood freeing Conrad. Yeah. For me, it was satisfying the way it came together. And I do love an alternate reality episode. I'm always going to be a sucker for that.

[00:13:42] So I guess this was what Alicia does like about Doctor Who. That's a really good way to summarize where we've differed on this one. Because, yeah, it is the alternate reality piece that Ian did not enjoy as much. Are we going to do a third person thing the whole episode? I quite like it. I cannot keep that up. Nope. The Alicia. The Alicia. Not a Alicia. Nope. Okay.

[00:14:10] So let's get into the episode itself. Let's start with the cold open takes us to Bavaria in 1865 where Frau Rani is posing as a midwife. She has discovered the Zufall family where the seventh son of a seventh son of a seventh son has just been born. Turning the family into flowers and animals, she takes the baby saying, your child is a fountainhead of power from beyond this universe. And we have things to do in 160 years time with one very special wish.

[00:14:39] So what did you think of the cold open on its own? It's my favorite bit of the episode. Okay. I really liked it. I, there is a, an unapologetic darkness to turning children into ducks as you turn their mother into violets. Because her name's Violet. That's the worst. At least the others get to be animals. She's a pile of flowers. She's gone. She's just potpourri in the room in the corner now. Um, that was beautifully dark.

[00:15:08] You might say too dark for Disney, but I got this fun, um, Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness vibe. There are, I have plenty of issues with that movie, but the, the way it plays, the, the, the magical, um, the, the fight, the, uh, the battle scene where he plays with the, the musical notes and just the way they use Doctor Strange magic. I had kind of like that vibe here where things get twisty turny and all kinds of powers are

[00:15:36] popping up from what the Time Lords, um, can do. And she doesn't even need a sonic screwdriver or a, a little pen to do it like the master and the doctor, um, does. She just kind of blinks them out of existence. So I wonder if she's tapping into some reality bending power from the Pantheon, um, and maybe Omega, like that kind of situation. But no, I, I, I liked the, the cold open. I'm a sucker for a horse galloping through the Varian forest, apparently.

[00:16:05] Um, and yeah, no, it just, it was the, it was. It, it, it helped start me. That was a great sentencing. And it helped make the Conrad stuff start to make sense. Um, so yeah, we're going to be tying into some, um, deeper law, apparently. Yeah. Yeah. I liked all the little Easter eggs in this opening part. Uh, for anyone who doesn't speak German, Zufal means like coincidence or luck. Uh, so that was a fun name.

[00:16:35] The seventh son of a seventh son. That's, um, a thing in a lot of cultures where the seventh son of a seventh son is often considered lucky or it's considered to be like a vampire or, or like a werewolf or something. Yeah. Some sort of evil creature. It goes either way, uh, depending on the culture. Yeah. And depending on the vampire you get. Yeah. Um, and now we have like one extra dimension to that. So this is, yeah.

[00:17:03] The, uh, baby Jonas who, oh, by the way. Yeah. I'd also wanted to, I looked up the seventh son of a seventh son myth to see if there's anything interesting. And there indeed was in Lancashire and particularly in Blackburn, there was an 18th and 19th centuries, a tradition of calling seventh sons of seventh sons doctor as a forename because they're, they're supposed ability as healers. That is incredible.

[00:17:29] I would not be surprised if RTD knew that. Yeah. I think he's quite a fan of folklore and, um, uh, I would not be surprised if he researched that and, and knew it. That's X. If they tie that in a little bit more, that would be, that would be lovely. Yeah. Yeah. What if the baby turned out to be the timeless child? Uh-huh. Or Susan? Hmm. Hmm. Oh wait. No. Well, I guess. I have thoughts about that when we get to, when we get to the end of the episode,

[00:17:58] I've thought about the Susan of it all. Um, but okay. But now we have like another dimension, a third generation of seventh son, uh, and the baby called Jonas by his parents, but the Ronnie says, no, I'm naming the baby Sturm and Drung, which is a bit on the nose. Really? Doctor Who on the nose? For anyone who doesn't know Sturm and Drung, it's, um, it was a German literary movement.

[00:18:24] It basically just means like, uh, storm and, uh, what is it? Storm and stress. And it's basically like doom and gloom in English. Yep. There we go. That makes sense. Yeah. More fun way of saying drama. Yeah. Yeah. Drama. Yeah. And it's interesting that she uses. So when she turns the family into flowers or animals, she blows like on the baby,

[00:18:52] like she's blowing the baby's magic at them and she calls it something older than witchcraft. And I guess it's wishes. Wishes are older than witchcraft. Um, yeah, I guess that could, the, the, the thing that humans have inside of them to long for something is probably the, the, the thing you can call the, the oldest kind of like form of magic.

[00:19:19] You can blame it on your deity of choice, but the core of it is that thing that you felt inside of you and then rationalizing why it did or didn't happen. So yeah, I really liked that as a, as a story dive. Yeah. Yeah. I'm also very into folklore. So, you know, I, like I said, I was a sucker for this episode, but yeah, this was, I guess it was another one that was rather designed for you. Yeah.

[00:19:49] Um, yeah. Cause the last one I said was designed for me. It was also about folklore. Yeah. The story in the engine. Um, okay. So let's get into the setup of the episode itself. Jumping to may of 2025, the doctor and Belinda wake up in a new pocket universe where he is known as John Smith and she is known as John Smith's wife. And they have their own space baby poppy. They have no memory of who they were before, even though their prior lives are narrated by

[00:20:15] the inescapable broadcast of Conrad Clark, the angry unit reject who did Ruby dirty and temporarily lost an arm to Kate's righteous rage in lucky day as the world preps for the mysterious mayday to take place the next day, May 24th, 2025 Belinda, the doctor and others like their neighbor, Melanie experience slips where dishes fall through the table and break snapping them out of pesky little doubts.

[00:20:42] Like say not remembering your own child being born little slips are soon forgotten, but doubt that's not dropped will be reported to the authorities often by the people closest to the doubters. So yeah, this I can see you were not in love with lucky day. And then suddenly lucky day is very important in this episode. For me, what I kept thinking about was as a classic. It's not classic. It's new who it's old new who now.

[00:21:12] But there is a David Tennant episode where you might remember, you might remember the name of it. But basically he's John Smith and he uses the pocket watch to hide himself as a time lord because he's being hunted and he believes that he's a human and he lives out a period of time as a human on earth. I am one of the few people that don't like that episode.

[00:21:37] I just I get very, very frustrated when the doctor isn't the doctor and is trapped in this WandaVision bubble. I love the TV show WandaVision like that is a beautiful way to do this conceit. This felt very WandaVision light for me. It was just frustrating for me, like going through 40 odd minutes of the doctor not believing the doctor is the doctor.

[00:22:05] And that just that being something that I've seen plenty of times now, and I want to see Shooty in particular play with his toys and play with being the doctor. And it feels like these first two seasons, there has been lots of reasons for him to not be the doctor, either to be absent because of scheduling or something like this where he can't be the doctor for for a hot minute.

[00:22:32] Um, and yeah, it's just it's I think I feel it more knowing that the modern era of doctor who you get three years, you probably get three seasons for if you're feeling it. And I just feel like this time with Shooty is slipping away from us. So all of that amplified to this not being a fun episode for Ian specifically. Yeah, no, I mean, I understand where you're coming from.

[00:22:57] Um, I, I guess, you know, I was more delighted by it did feel like this. This was definitely a part one of a two part episode. So it's kind of like they're taking all the toys out of the box and putting them on the table. And I hope next week when they actually get to play with all the toys, you know, like the doctor and his docterness and other elements we'll talk about. Um, I hope that will hit the spot for you more. I'm, I'm almost positive.

[00:23:23] It would, if I can just get out of my grumpy mode of you took my toys away, that the punishment doesn't fit the crime. What did I do wrong? I turned up, I watched the show. Why am I being punished? Uh, see, I felt rewarded, but yeah, that's actually for stuff that comes later. But I did, um, I enjoyed the mystery elements of this, you know, like we have Conrad broadcasting everywhere, like even in public squares, you're just constantly got Conrad and which relatable.

[00:23:50] Um, I mean, there's a great 19, we're going to stop saying like 1984 comparison and just say 2025 because suddenly things in 1984 just don't seem that strange at all. So yeah, there is a very relatable vibe to a lot of this and that Conrad and even the Ruby subplot I was much more on board with. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:16] And I'm very like, I was kind of nervous about them making space babies more relevant because space babies, the season one, um, premiere is famously not the most beloved of this new one. No, it is not. Which is fair. Perhaps the least I might even say. Um, but yeah, I'm intrigued by what they're doing with Poppy in this episode.

[00:24:39] So far we've just gotten teases, but, um, yeah, it is interesting that she maybe seemed like she was the only one who remembered things or knew more things. Um, they kept talking about this may day, like it's this exciting holiday, but anytime they asked Poppy the baby about it, she was like, no, no. Yeah. So I don't remember seeing any other children in the episode. Hmm. Good point.

[00:25:07] I mean, I guess we don't normally, and I don't, so I don't clock it because kids are just difficult to work with. Oh yeah. You don't have them around as extras. It's usually like a deliberate thing, but I just, I feel like if it would be very RTD to tie in a child's innocence and ability to call BS to everything in day-to-day life, just on every level, a child will be, um, very blunt.

[00:25:34] Tying that into what the Rani is trying to do. So later on, the Rani actually wants the doctor's doubt and wants to feed on it. And I feel like maybe she's using Poppy's child's innocence and inability to buy into reality to power whatever she's powering as well. So there's obviously a reason she's there. It's, uh, it's gotta be tied into her, her, uh, inability to buy the, um, the new reality.

[00:26:04] Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. And I'm sure she doesn't like, I mean, another on the nose piece of, there's a few on the nose, uh, pieces of commentary in this episode to be expected, especially in an RTD episode. Um, but they say Belinda's family tells Belinda that, uh, Poppy has her path laid out for her. She'll be a good little girl, a good little wife, and then a good little mother. Uh, which she's not excited. Hey, if that's for you, great.

[00:26:32] But do, do not be destined if you don't want to be destined. Don't tell the baby that's her life. Yeah. Uh-huh. Um, I have to point out now, this is something John would appreciate more than you, but for listeners who do care, uh, the mom, Lakshmi, I was like, I know her. And so I had to look it up. Her name's Naila, um, Aliyah. And I'm sorry if I mispronounce that, but, uh, she plays Adelaide Sadai in Wheel of Time. So yay.

[00:26:57] That's more than one Wheel of Time connection that I think we've had this season. That's really cool. Yeah. Well, uh, they, they both use a lot of British actors. Mm-hmm. That seems to be a sci-fi thing is just make them British. Yeah. I mean, because Wheel of Time, the production company has been based in Prague, but yeah, they do a lot of their filming in London also. Makes sense.

[00:27:23] Um, what did you think of the giant dinosaur skeletons walking around? Yeah, actually, um, I really liked that. That was... It looks cool. Yeah, the, the, again, it's, it's a beautiful show. Like that Disney, I'm going to miss that Disney money when we have to go back to doing an episode on a budget of 20 quid and a, and a packet of crisps. Um, but I really love the dinosaurs walking around.

[00:27:49] For me, it was, it was, wow, they are so in this reality. Even that doesn't seem strange. Like just accepting it. And it's, it's just this thing that is part of the reality that is part of Earth. And Ian is a sucker for dinosaurs. So if you put a dinosaur in an episode, you've got 10% more buy-in from him, even if it doesn't make sense. So why do we think they're there? Is it because Conrad is a sucker for dinosaurs? Um, that's, is he, do we know that? I don't know.

[00:28:19] I'm just, I mean, is he, he's the one who's like making this reality or, you know, deciding what it looks like. Right. So, I mean, that completely makes sense. I can already picture an expositional flashback where he's like the one good memory I had with my dad was going to the British history museum and looking at the dinosaurs at the, at the, actually no, it's at the, no, it is the, the history museum has the, the big dinosaur in it. Yeah. That'll be a flashback.

[00:28:47] So yeah, I imagine it is part of him creating reality and it's, it's a soup of, I'm amazed there's not more chaos to be honest. I'm amazed it's only a spooky ghost dinosaurs walking around. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll, we'll see. Well, by the end of the episode, chaos ensues, but we'll see if, if, what, if any role the dinosaurs play in the finale.

[00:29:12] Well, it's quite interesting that Omega seems to be, I'm probably being too literal, but oh, and that's jumping ahead a little bit, but coming from beneath. So like kind of being unearthed. So I wonder if the dinosaur fossils are being unearthed in a way and being pulled up. Good point. From the ground perhaps in some way, but I could be being too literal with that. No, yeah. Good point. Um, so I liked in terms of me saying that they're putting toys on the table to play with

[00:29:41] next episode. Um, we got quite a few callbacks to classic who characters, Mel shows up, uh, who Mel, we should point out. She did not interact with the Ronnie at all this episode, but she was, um, the time of, and the Ronnie, the second appearance of the Ronnie that we'll talk about at the end of the episode, Mel was an important character in that. So I wonder if they're going to call back to that in some way.

[00:30:07] It would be a crime if you didn't have an interaction between, um, coherent Mel and the new Ronnie. Yeah. Yeah. And she says, um, no parents, no children. I will sit Mayday in contemplation and be jolly glad. And I'm still dying to know what did they think in universe Mayday is? What do they think it is? Yeah. Well, I mean, it could be one of those things where it's just nothing. It's just, this is the day. Like it's quite an arbitrary thing.

[00:30:37] Like this is just, it's an important day because we have been told this is important and we do important things and the work is mysterious and important. And that's it. Maybe there isn't a, a specific thing that happens. It's just, this is important. Yeah. And we have other classic, uh, characters or, or, you know, unit characters. Um, basically the doctor works at unit only now it stands for unified national insurance.

[00:31:06] And we see Shirley outside, uh, begging because, uh, we'll talk about that more in a moment, but, um, uh, basically because she's in a wheelchair, she's can't work there now. Um, Kate is a strict office manager inside. We have Colonel Christopher Ibrahim who's working there. And, uh, the woman who gave the doctor coffee and is around it's Susan Triad, the harbinger for the last season. I did not expect that. Oh, totally missed it. That's my brain.

[00:31:35] My poor little brain completely missed that. That's that completely. Yep. No, I can picture it now. That is interesting, isn't it? I wonder if she's going to tie into this more. I mean, I, I mean, I guess I'm not entirely surprised to see her back, but I am surprised to see her in the unit office. Does she, she, she didn't work for unit at the end of it. Did she? I don't remember now. I don't remember what happened with Susan Triad after the harbinger stuff. I thought she just went back to her life. Oh no, we're terrible. Who fans? Yeah.

[00:32:04] I don't, I don't think she ended up working at unit. It was only last season. I've been cramming my head with so much classic who like, I'm finally getting into the classic who stuff. And then it's like one story comes in and another one just slips out. Oh, it is. Yeah. This is why learning is bad people. You never retain it all. It just pushes something useful out. My brain, more wrinkles, more wrinkles, brain. Exactly. Yes. My, my poor smooth brain.

[00:32:33] But you weren't there for the episodes where John and I were talking about the vibes between Kate and Ibrahim, but it seems to be confirmed now that John, quote unquote, the doctor gives Ibrahim advice on asking Kate out. So that's definitely for real a thing. I imagine they're setting up for the land of sea and game of ocean dwelling. The war between the earth and the sky.

[00:33:03] And the Rami and the Omega. Yeah. There we go. I imagine they're setting up a romance for that, which I think is very sweet. I really do. I do ship them. I do quite enjoy them together. I do. I did just do a very quick Google. And yes, Susan Triad was actually offered a job at unit. And I can't believe we both forgot that. I have no memory of this place. But yes, she does work for unit now. When in doubt, the character was offered a job at unit.

[00:33:31] More often than not, they either get banished into a mirror or they're working for unit. I mean, no wonder Conrad is mad. He's like, I'm literally the only person who's appeared in the show who has not been offered a job at unit. That's amazing. Anybody can work. They're even the bad guys. But not Conrad. But the first inkling we get that this is a universe created by people like Conrad is that

[00:33:56] the Colonel Ibrahim gets upset when the doctor offhandedly calls him a beautiful man. He's like, you can't call me a beautiful man. Men can't say other men are beautiful. Like, okay. Yeah, as on the nose as it is in a lot of ways throughout this episode, it's clear that RTD is tapping into this wave of toxic masculinity and weaving it into this Conrad story specifically. So yeah, it does feel on the nose.

[00:34:25] It's not the most subtle of metaphors, but it is. It's absolutely the world that Conrad would create. And yeah, sometimes we need it. Yeah, sometimes people need it spelled out for them. So I'm glad Doctor Who will do that work. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Let's take a quick pause here. And when we come back, we're going to check in on what the Ronnie is up to.

[00:35:02] So meanwhile, in the Ronnie's Tower of Bones, Mrs. Flood Shafe set her new subservient role to her bi-generated buddy, the Ronnie. But Conrad, it turns out, is a prisoner of both Ronnies charged with taking care of the baby, who it turns out is the most powerful god of the pantheon, Desiderium, the god of wishes, using the power of the baby to turn Conrad's wishes for the world into reality, creating

[00:35:27] nice weather everywhere and disenfranchising everyone who doesn't fit into his idea of an ideal society. This, it turns out, is the plan of the Ronnies, to place the Doctor in a world that maximizes his doubts, boosted by the Vindicator, and use those powerful doubts to punch holes in reality. So, yeah, as soon as that, as soon as we heard that arpeggio.

[00:35:54] Hearing it come out of the baby, I was like, nope, nope, put it away, stop it. Creepy. It was already a creep. They did this, like, upturn thing in the corner of the baby's mouth, uh, corners. So, yeah, it was creepy already. CG Halloween, stop it, stop it. That's not what you use the Disney money on, quit it. Yeah. It was interesting, though, just to see that Conrad is, I don't know, to see him grapple

[00:36:21] with his own sense of morality, where he's obviously doing all these horrible things where he's pushing anyone who doesn't fit his ideal off to the side. But at the same time, he's, like, anxious about, is it okay out there? Is it working? It's such hard work, all the thinking. Sometimes I forget about the weather and South Africa gets flooded. So, he's like, I'm, I'm really, I'm, I'm such a martyr making the best world. Uh-huh. People don't appreciate what a great dictator I am. Mm.

[00:36:49] Um, what's interesting, there's a, there's a, there's a lot that's interesting to me about the Conrad stuff. Um, the, I think what the episode is trying to say is that him pushing anybody that is differently abled or isn't what Conrad's vision of perfect is, is being pushed away. But that's not even, like, his wish. That's just in his bones. Like, that is just a product of Conrad's world is you will be, you will not be seen. Like, he doesn't even acknowledge you.

[00:37:18] And then the hard bit is maintaining this paradise for him. And there is this, um, not, not to get political, but there is a party in England that is currently gaining some momentum and has won some seats and are lasting, some of them are lasting a week in power and then quitting because turns out the job is hard. So, there is this, like, grab for power. And then when you get there, wait, there's work to be done. Wait, it's not just a sweeping hand of everybody doers.

[00:37:45] As I say, you actually have to do the hard work to run a, um, a city, a town, a country, a world. So, I do love that RTD is tapping into when these people get into power, oh, suddenly it's actually quite tricky. But then what's the, the real downside as well of them not doing that hard work and how quickly these systems can fall apart.

[00:38:12] And, um, yeah, the, the, there are many reasons why these people shouldn't be in power, not least of all because of, um, some problematic beliefs. Right. Yeah. I mean, that's, these problematic beliefs are born of often not thinking things through. Yes. Yeah. Scary stuff. Uh, we think things through though. So my, my question of overthinking this episode. So, uh, the Ronnie flies back on what looks like a flying segue.

[00:38:44] The metaphor of who metaphors. And the doctor's like, I wonder who she is. And everyone's like, what? She's queen of the world. Um, but she brings, she brings a mortadella from Italy. Do we think she has the ability to cross out into the real world? Like, is she going to real world Italy or is the entire world, uh, in this bubble where they still make mortadella, but there's no gay people. I think, I think it's the whole world. Okay.

[00:39:12] The weather thing in South Africa, he mentioned like maintaining stuff around the world. So I think, and the doctor says like, you can't have a wish that powers the, you can't create a planet out of a wish. Like you can't do that. There's not enough power. It's not stable. So it's not stable. So I think that's, yeah, I think it's the whole planet. Okay. All right. All right. And we, we have, you know, the doctor said in the story in the engine that the stories were leaking together.

[00:39:39] And now we see more of that with the guards from Harmony Arena from episode six were guards in the bone tower and the tower of bones. I wonder what else is going to leak in. And I'm hoping it's Dugger, Dugger, Dugger, Dugger, Dugger, Dugger, Dugger, Dugger, Dugger, Dugger. That's the next thing the baby sings. Yes. Turns out Dugger is also a pantheon god. Yep. That's the, if, if they're not, there's something wrong. There is. Dugger, Dugger, Dugger, Dugger.

[00:40:07] I saw an interview with RTD and he hates it. He's like, he hates it. He's like, I respect Murray Gold a little less now. Oh, it was great to see in the Doctor Who Unleashed episode, the reaction of, because they did not know that Murray Gold wrote that. And for anyone who doesn't know, Murray Gold is really highly respected composer who does all the music for Doctor Who.

[00:40:32] And including that brilliant song at the end of the last episode with, you know, about the Hellions. But yeah, this was something else. He must have had some fun with it. And it's, Shuti specifically has an incredible reaction. Yeah. Yeah. That was Murray. It's like, I was vibing with it. Wait, that was Murray. Nope. Nope. Don't like it anymore. We also, God, is this a new character? Okay.

[00:41:02] So in, in the unit, there's the Vlynx. This is something else, but seems to be serving a particular, a similar purpose. They call these, these like women dressed in black with their fingers attached to the table. They call them clone type classiforms, basic seeker function animals. We don't, I looked it up and I don't think we've seen this before, right? No, not to my knowledge. It's techie, techie, tech thing does the tech thing that we need the tech thing to do. Yeah, sure. Cool design.

[00:41:30] I don't remember it from anywhere, but I loved it. I really liked the, the visual of the visual of them. It reminded me of, I think it's, is it Peter Capaldi's TARDIS that had like that liquid interface thing where he could put his fingers inside of the console and it was like this more organic, meshy thing. Um, so it kind of reminded me of that until the Rani touched one of the fingers and I was like, Oh, don't touch it.

[00:41:57] I thought it was gooey, but I can see that it's just a solid thing. Yeah. It's just plastic. Don't touch it. Stop it. You broke my immersion. I'm having doubts. Okay. I'm going to report you. Um, and we also, okay. What do we think about this quote unquote explanation for the Vindicator where the Rani, uh, places the Vindicator on the wall clock, which again is counting down to midnight and says, we have

[00:42:26] a temporal fix counting down Vindicator at 99% and rising. And, and we get all this like, and I looked up like the voice that voiced at light blade and energy to the power of five is a power of a billion supernovas. Yeah. All that's made up. Supernovas are real, but all the rest of that is absolute gobbledygook nonsense. Um, but yeah, she says the Vindicator crisscrossed the universe, which reminded me of the story

[00:42:55] Nexus from the story in the engine and also of the fairy circles from the 76 yards. Oh yes. Yes. Just that crisscrossing to bring the doctor back here and create a web of Titanic power for the Rani to use. What did you think of that explanation of the use of the Vindicator leading up to this? Um, I, I, I get it in the loosest way possible and I would not be surprised if that is it. Yeah.

[00:43:23] If there's no kind of like further layers to that. It's just the Vindicator needed a certain amount of time miles on it to absorb what it needs to absorb to unleash what it needs to unleash. Um, though the one kind of like under metaphor that I did appreciate and like was the doomsday clock analogy, which is this hypothetical clock that moves the, the hand moves towards midnight.

[00:43:49] And when it gets to midnight, that should signify the end of the world. And that was more about the nuclear arms race and how close the real world is to, to, to self annihilation. So I did like that. I don't think they really explicitly said that's what it is, but I got doomsday clock vibes from it. Um, and I think that's, I think that's it. I think that's what Omega needed to, um, to be unleashed. But this begs the question, where did the doctor get the Vindicator in the first place?

[00:44:19] Didn't he just pull it out of the TARDIS? Wasn't it? Didn't he pull it out of the guts of the TARDIS? Yeah. But where did it, I mean, Rani obviously knew that he had it or. Oh, this is where we find out the Rani planted it on the TARDIS back in, uh, Colin Baker's era and it's been there all along. Hmm. Okay. But she says doubts at 30%, uh, but he thinks the most at sunset. It's a shame these little people have to die, but tonight we find him the one who is lost

[00:44:47] and then the great work begins. So Ruby, the doctor's last companion is also trapped in this world. Built on her horrible ex-boyfriend's wish for his perfect world. Only Ruby, having run away from her own family after her mother reported her for expressing doubts, is now living in the liminal spaces of society where her memories of her prior life grow stronger. She and Shirley, a unit employee in the real world who is now relegated to a tent camp on

[00:45:17] the edge of town for being a wheelchair user, recognize each other. Shirley takes Ruby to her camp where they hatch a plan to try to block Conrad's TV signal, luring him out of the bone tower so that they can take him down or so that Ruby can at least look him in the eye and remember everything she's forgotten. So yeah, obviously Ruby has met Poppy before, though she doesn't quite remember it, but she's like, doctor, you don't have a daughter. Yeah, didn't immediately jump to space baby though.

[00:45:46] Would have been pretty cool if she had. It is interesting that why Ruby remembers more than almost anyone else because she doesn't have the same excuse of being a wheelchair user or being anything other than Conrad's normal. So is it because of the folk fairy magic thing that happened with, because I mean that episode

[00:46:13] had the similar vibes of Ruby being shunned and as soon as somebody talks to that person in the distance, they wouldn't want anything to do with Ruby and they would leave her. So it has a similar vibe. So I wonder if she's built up like a vaccine immunity based on that exposure to the fairy folk magic. Yeah, I mean, I would assume that it probably has something to do in general with, I mean,

[00:46:41] I was going to say with her traveling with the doctor, but then if the doctor and Belinda themselves don't even remember. But I guess it definitely has something to do with the fact that her own mother turned on her and that she became a runaway. And so runaways are also people who live on the edge of society and are ignored. I would just think there would be more of them if there's lots of people. We don't know how many people are being reported, but I got the impression it was quite a few,

[00:47:08] which my university education was in politics and history. So I always tend to see these historical overlays. So I saw this communism thing of report your neighbor. If there's a commie living next door, report your neighbor to the government. So I got that vibe from this as well. Just RTD attacking, attacking the fascist right pretty, pretty hard, which is the right time to be doing it.

[00:47:37] No, I mean, I have to say that there, there was a politician here who was also getting people to report their neighbors for various reasons. But anyway, not a good look. Not a good look. Yeah. And well, OK, I was going to say in response to your question about people being reported, I think most of them get arrested and taken back to the tower. But we don't know what happens to the other people who are taken back to the tower who aren't Belinda

[00:48:05] and or if they're just thrown in a dungeon somewhere or something. But I think, yeah, Ruby got away maybe because she was already more alert. Yeah, I think they are probably thrown into space so that they can be perpetuated by a mavity field. I think that's what happens. Probably. Probably. I do wonder if the fact that Conrad is like the voice of this reality and Ruby, there's got to be some part of her deep down.

[00:48:32] Obviously, we do see this, but maybe there is an inkling even before her mom reported her where she was like, oh, that guy just gives me bad feeling, you know, just makes me feel bad things. Yeah. Yeah. That wouldn't surprise me. Okay, so we go to the tent camp for the disabled and dispossessed. And yeah, we hear we get ignored. That's the way the world is. We live outside the world so we can see it better. All on the nose, but good commentary.

[00:49:02] Of course. Yeah. And we find out also about relics bleeding through from the real world as we know it. And like Shirley's state of the art wheelchair. Later, we get a tablet from Unit. And they talk about, this is interesting, just in my, it's all connected, tinfoil hat corner thing. They talk about getting glimpses in the corner of my eye of memories, which just reminds me of the entity from The Well and from Listen.

[00:49:32] Oh, yeah. Don't make complete eye contact with it. Whenever I hear that, I always think about the perception filter as well, which is RTD's way of describing why the Tardis, a big blue phone box, isn't really noticed by anybody. They see it, but they don't pay attention to it because it's in their peripheral vision. So the perception filter stuff has been used to explain a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just like psychic paper. Like, we're just moving through that plot point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:02] I do think it's interesting that the, you know, this, this tent camp, the people there, they all think Conrad is the god of earth, but he's actually a slave to the Ronnites. So it is interesting. This commentary on who we think is in charge might actually just be a figurehead. Yeah. Maybe the people that were there all along and will be there long after as well. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm.

[00:50:28] So the doctor's doubts do intensify in the evening, especially after Rogue, last seen sacrificing himself to be sent to an unknown dimension last season to save Ruby, interrupts Conrad's TV story to remind the doctor who he is. As Rogue says that he's stuck in a hell dimension that is sliding into the pit and he fears he might not survive. He can only send the doctor one warning. Tables don't do that.

[00:50:54] It's enough for the doctor's memories to begin to break through, prompting Belinda to report the doctor for having doubts, just as her own mother reports her. Both are arrested by Mrs. Flood and taken to the Bone Tower, the one fixed point in this reality where the Ronny reveals that her master plan has been to release the one who is lost from the Underverse, Omega, one of the original Time Lords. So yeah, what did you think of the Rogue appearance?

[00:51:21] That was obviously, I know I'm more into romance than you in television. Yes, correct. And Rogue is someone I've been waiting, hoping to show up this season. So that was the moment in the episode when I got most excited. Honestly, I love it. I don't think there's anyone in the world with more charisma than Jonathan Groff. I think he's just incredible. I kind of wanted him to be a Time Lord.

[00:51:49] Like with that, Rogue is a very Time Lord name, a moniker to give yourself if you're an Exile Time Lord as well. I love the interplay with him and Judy Gantler. I think they have so much chemistry. And I love that this kind of confirms that love interest thing. And because they were flirty and there was a spark, but it wasn't like explicit in any way. They kissed. Oh no, did they kiss? Oh no. It was a big deal. They kissed on Disney.

[00:52:19] My smooth brain. My smooth brain has completely forgotten that. Oh, I'm sorry, Alicia. Anyway, so it was very explicit the last time that we saw him, which was great and it should be, but it was nice to see him return. It was nice that they haven't just forgotten that to a one episode thing. Yeah. I liked that a lot. Yeah. He seems, I was surprised by like how angry with the doctor he seemed considering it was a choice he made himself.

[00:52:45] And part of me that made me wonder if it was really rogue or if it was just another way of prodding the doctor's doubts. But then he told the doctor he loves him. So which could have been part of a guise, but I don't know. Especially when we find out that the Rani needs the doctor's doubt. Like she needs the reality to unravel because of him. So I would be kind of, it would be a little bit inconsistent if either a, the Rani didn't

[00:53:12] just make that up completely or allowed rogue to gain some access. Like that should be a deliberate ploy on her part because she wants this to happen. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I hope that we get more rogue in the season finale. I fear that maybe this was a tease for a future season of something that may or may not play out. Oh yeah. I think so. Yeah. I think there's a lot that's still up in the air about what can and can't happen with whatever will or won't be season three.

[00:53:42] Mm hmm. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's the will or won't be season three part that worries me the most. There definitely will be. Yeah. Whether it's on Disney. Yeah, exactly. And maybe Jonathan Groff needs Disney money. I don't know. Hmm. Maybe I wouldn't be surprised. Although again, I have to shout out a nice Indian boy. If anyone hasn't seen it yet, it's a great rom-com with him. He is just like, he is the most chemistry. Yeah. I think he has chemistry with everything. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:54:11] Um, but yeah, as you said, the Rani is encouraging the doctor to remember this whole counting down to midnight thing. Um, although, okay. So speaking of the doctor's past lovers, we get this tease. We danced once upon a time at the siege of Persephone with the city burning around us, which is like, whoa, doctor, you were dancing in the burning city. And she said, people said we were lovers. We were never enemies. Do you think they were lovers or she just, he would remember now that he got his memories back at the end of the episode.

[00:54:41] But I, I think I more believe there's a romance between the master and the doctor, um, the Rani and the doctor. I, I feel like this is, they're a throuple. We, yeah. I mean, that could be it as well. Um, I feel like this is the Rani kind of gaslighting him a bit and creating her own reality. I can well imagine that Persephone was burning and he was paralyzed and she was dancing with him. And in her mind, that was them having a lovely dance. And he's just like, stop it. Stop it. Get off me, woman.

[00:55:11] People are dying. Put me down. Um, but yeah, in her mind, it's this beautiful, loving memory that she's, she's crafted, which is a very abuser thing to do. Yeah. I can imagine that. She says something interesting here. She says every villain we fought wanted death. I only wanted life, which is an interesting distinction to make a very villainous distinction to make. I only want what's good for you. Like the Republic will be peaceful under the empire. Yeah. She's like, I only want life at the expense of all else, which is funny because Omega,

[00:55:41] that's all Omega ever wanted was just to live. Yeah. That's it. It's not hard. It's not much. I just want to live and dominate you all. Okay. Yeah. Well, it's just a live and punish you all for getting in my way of living before. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, we, we get these two of the three. So there's three like great time Lords that are kind of considered the progenitors just ignoring for now the timeless child because we don't know how that's going to fit in. Yeah.

[00:56:10] But there's Rassilon who, you know, we saw the seal of Rassilon and this is the president eternal of the time Lords. There's a third one that's like, what did they call the third one? Like the it's an unknown figure. We don't have a name for that one. I don't remember what they, what the official name is. Um, and we have Omega, the creator of the time Lords. Um, yeah. What did you, what did you think when you saw Omega come back?

[00:56:38] Okay, here we go. I, this is truly where it lost me. So I can, I'm firmly in the bucket now of, I will, unless something changes, which could always happen, I will enjoy Dr. Who on a very superficial level and on a, none of this really matters and just kind of get along with it, cool, do whatever you want to do. It is becoming borderline unwatchable if you don't have a lot of previous Dr. Who knowledge.

[00:57:05] And I feel like it is, it's something we're seeing with a lot of pop culture and it's, it is, I feel like it's hurting itself by not being its own thing. And I feel like it's having this identity crisis. I have like kind of logical reasons in my brain for it, but I am longing for this era

[00:57:28] of Dr. Who to be its own thing and to explore new stories and not rely on the old, old stuff. I feel like if you're going to rebrand and start season one, season two, rebrand for a reason and be your own thing. That doesn't mean you never mentioned anything that happens in the doctor's past, but Sutek being the end of season one, Omega and the Rani being season two, it, in my brain,

[00:57:55] it feels like RTD knows that he has two seasons with Disney money. He has two seasons of exposure to Disney plus. I'm going to expose everybody to everything. Dr. Who all at once. We're going to pack in as much as we can to build interest in the law into older episodes of Dr. Who. But we're also going to try and trick these people into joining my calling it season one.

[00:58:23] For me, it's ended up being very, very confused. And Omega was the final straw of that doesn't mean anything unless you know, unless you have some knowledge of Dr. Who from the seventies and the finale may do a great job of explaining it, but you're not gonna, you are going to, by definition, feel left out no matter how well they, they execute what Omega's plan is now.

[00:58:48] The knowledge gap is going to feel much bigger than it is because we know this is a classic Dr. Who villain. Like, even if there's very little left out, you're going to feel like I've missed this because I don't have the knowledge. So it's this, this constant battle between respecting longtime fan of the shows and of the show and giving them what they want, attracting a new audience. I don't think it's hitting the balance for me. I would love to hear from listeners at home.

[00:59:17] This actually reminds me of last night. I wrote, um, a movie review of, of the new film, Jane Austen wrecked my life. And at the end of, I'm just quoting myself here from, from that at the end of the review, it's being released today. So, um, if you're getting the sense that Jane Austen super fans may get more of the in jokes, that's true, but rom-com lovers of all stripes likely won't mind letting the references wash over them and won't find they detract from the likable characters, warmth and humor.

[00:59:47] Um, so I'm wondering, I'd love to hear from listeners who are not familiar with classic who, uh, whether they are put off by the, by this, by this old lore, as you say, or, or how they're responding to it. Or if they're just like, okay, there's, uh, an important old time Lord named Omega that I'm going to learn more about. Um, cause I wonder, because I, I've been on both sides of this where, uh, when I first was

[01:00:16] watching through Dr. Who, all the classic references, I was like, not going to worry about that. Like there used to be other doctors. Don't, don't really need to know who's who. Um, just, there used to be other doctors. That's fine moving on. And now I, you know, I've gotten to the point in my who fandom where I'm like, Oh, Omega, let's go back and watch all Omega's episodes. Um, yes. So I, I don't know. Um, I'm curious where other people fall in the spectrum. If they're not bothered by it, like I used to not be, if they want to watch more or if

[01:00:45] they're annoyed by it, as you're saying. Yeah. I'd be really, really interested. I am kind of, I'm making some assumptions and I just know if it's hitting me like that as a long-term fan, I can't imagine what it's doing to people brand new to the franchise as well. I just feel like there's always going to be an artifact of leaving people behind. And I feel like Doctor Who is strong enough as a concept to continue to iterate and do new things.

[01:01:12] Like that's the beauty of, of them being able to regenerate is that you can reinvent the show. Um, yeah, it's tricky. We'll see how the finale executes Omega's return. Um, so we, we get at the end of the episode, the doctor remembers everything, but he's trapped on the balcony and, uh, we saw earlier the Ronnie was like pointing her, I don't know what her sonic device, whatever it's called. The sonic Ronnie screwdriver with the scissors, the sonic kind of handle on it. Yeah. I did love it.

[01:01:42] I want one. Yeah. No, uh, I'll buy all of them. Um, but the, the Ronnie was pointing that at like these little like orbs on eye stalks that were sticking out. And I was like, what is that about? And now I realized, okay, she was setting up the explosion for later so that the doctor's trapped out there. It explodes. He's falling. And while falling, he shouts, I have a daughter. Poppy is real. Don't you know what that means? Do do do. I wish I knew what that meant.

[01:02:12] I feel like I'm going to feel stupid when I don't realize. I mean, I do wonder. Okay. So another thing that happened this episode is while Conrad's doing his whole story time thing, he says at one point, the time lady said, it's not over because I know of a secret hidden away from the depths of time Lord history, a secret so old and terrible. Everyone had forgotten, but the secret was beginning to wake. And on the surface, it seems like that might be about Omega.

[01:02:41] Although I don't think he's still kind of a fan favorite. So I don't think that, um, people forgotten him, but we saw at the end of that flashes of Susan's face. So is the secret related to Susan? Is Poppy actually Susan's parents? Because Susan's the granddaughter? Yeah, I feel like, I mean, this could go so many ways. I'm getting like River Song vibes of who is, who is River, et cetera. Um, I feel like, I mean, the doctor screaming out Poppy is my daughter.

[01:03:10] Do you know what that means? Does Poppy regenerate into the Susan that we know? Um, or I mean, but there has to be a generation in between. So Poppy could be the time. Well, cause Susan's a granddaughter, not the daughter. Oh, I see what you mean. Right, right, right. Yes. Yes. Okay. Oh man. Doctor Who gets weird, doesn't it? I mean, yeah, maybe that. The baby could be the old lady's mother. Yeah. Poppy is Susan's mother, perhaps.

[01:03:41] That makes sense. I mean, I'm wondering if the secret is the doctor kidnaps Susan and there isn't a relation there at all. And maybe she's the queen of Gallifrey and the, the, some prodigal child that the doctor kidnapped and rescued. Hmm. Tinfoil hat time. Something terrible happened with the doctor's child that the doctor wanted to erase those memories or something. Yeah, perhaps. And projected onto Susan.

[01:04:09] Um, yeah, maybe her parents died because of something the doctor did. And that's why he's so protective of Susan until he abandoned her. It's going to be hard. There's a lot to not necessarily retcon, but if you're looking for answers about Susan, there's a lot of, um, a lot of foundational work that you have to do. And, um, RTD has said in a, in an interview that the, the finale will shake up Gallifrey and law, law as in L-O-R-E again.

[01:04:40] It's already been shaken up. So, um, it's interesting. I, one of the reasons I really like Omega is, um, it's been a while since I've seen the episode, but if I'm remembering rightly, he created time travel. He was one of the, he was a Gallifrey scientist that invented time travel, which allowed in at least the canon that we knew before the timeless child allowed the time lords to be time lords.

[01:05:05] So I'm fascinated by getting potentially some answers to that. And I, I love the idea of actually explaining how the time lords develop time travel and what they were before they were time lords, because your time lord is a self-imposed title. So what were you before that? So there's so much interesting stuff to explore with Omega. Right. And with the concept of the timeless child where the doctor, um, the doctor their self was

[01:05:35] the one who, uh, inspired the regeneration. Yes. Yeah. So maybe it's, it's both. Maybe it's that element of being a time lord is the timeless child, but the time machine time traveling stuff was already there. And that was Omega. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, we're going to take one last quick pause. And when we come back, we're going to dip into the not so tinfoil hat corner where we're going to talk through some of these classic episodes for these characters that are being brought back. See you in a sec.

[01:06:24] So, uh, not much to say about this, but just one to, since you and John already, uh, talked about it pretty thoroughly, but, uh, I have watched the Susan introduction and Susan exit. Oh, fun. Well, I say fun. I actually, I was pleasantly surprised by the, I was saying that the first one of what is it? Um, an unearthly child. Unearthly child. Episode one. Absolute beginning of doctor who, but I was telling you, I don't know.

[01:06:52] I didn't realize that because it's not on the BBC website because of a rights issue. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. So I thought I watched the first episode is just them. Like the first time the Daleks are introduced is the first episode that's on the BBC website. And, um, and I was like, oh, wow, this really just starts right in the middle of things. And then I was like, no, no, no. There's another series before this. Okay. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. I wonder why that is.

[01:07:19] Um, I did my, my, one of my earliest, um, who memories is they do a flashback to the William Hartnell, um, speech of one day I will be back. Yes, I will be back. And that was played at the beginning of a serial called the five doctors. Right. Um, which was the most doctors we've ever had on screen. It was for the 20th anniversary, I believe, or 25th. Um, my personal favorite episode of doctor who I love it.

[01:07:48] And it was played at the beginning and I'd never seen this doctor before. And I had no idea. It was just this black and white recording. And I was like, man, his voice is cool. And that speech is amazing. And then I found out the whole speech is him abandoning Susan. And I'm like, Oh, Oh, I like that less now. Yeah. So the, the five doctors is the next one on my classic who watch list because, because of that. Yeah. And I'm also going to check back in on the name of the doctor where they, uh, kind

[01:08:18] of retcon a little bit that, uh, Susan and the doctor leaving Gallifrey. Yes. Yeah. I've seen that one before, but it's been a while. So I'm just going to refresh my memory. It's from, uh, season seven of new who. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, yeah. So that's, that's Susan. We still need to see, I hope she does have a big role in the finale. I hope we get some revelations about, I don't want to be like, just have the breadcrumbs stringing us along with the Susan of it all. Yeah.

[01:08:46] I think Susan will get a resolution. My tinfoil hat is that we're not going to see her on screen. I think we're just going to have that flashback in the TARDIS. I think that might be all we see of her, of Caroline Ford. Hmm. Okay. Okay. All right. Um, and as I said, I did also go back, uh, last week and watched the classic Who, Ronnie episodes where Kate O'Mara played the Ronnie.

[01:09:12] And, um, those are the Mark of the Ronnie from season two, the third serial, and that aired in February of 1985. And then there was also time and the Ronnie from season 24. Uh, so, uh, those, have you watched those or do you remember them or? Yeah, I have watched them. It has been many, many, many years. Um, I specifically remember the Ronnie kind of standing over the doctor's dead body.

[01:09:41] Cause I think spoiler, she's the reason he regenerates into the seventh doctor. So I've always, I have this image of her walking around the TARDIS kind of victorious. So she was, she was very, very, very scary to me and just flamboyantly brilliant. It's a very, the Colin Baker, Sylvester McCoy era, uh, seven doctors is very interesting. It's a very interesting era of doctor who. So I have a confession.

[01:10:12] I've now, I've still not seen any of the fourth doctor and I know that he's most people's favorite. Um, you still won't when you see the five doctors. Oh, that's so weird. Yes, yes it is. Someday I'll go back and watch his, uh, his episodes. But, um, I've seen even not having seen that and even only having seen the second doctor in the three doctors special. Yes. Yeah. Patrick Troughton.

[01:10:38] I'm still feel very confident in saying that the sixth doctor is by far my least favorite. Oh, Colin Baker. Yes. He is by, I would say by a huge margin, the least popular doctor who, um, I'm not surprised. The clown costume. He was mean. He was violent. He was, um, his, I mean, his first lines are something like, what a very egotistical thing for a young girl to say. Yeah.

[01:11:05] And he just, he has an interesting approach to being the doctor that was, yeah, very aggressive, very dismissive. So I, I, I, I have grown to appreciate him over time, but he is. Yeah. It wasn't, wasn't a great time for doctor who for sure. Yeah. I, I mean, I've only seen the one serial with him now, but he was obnoxious to his, to his, uh, companion Perry. Yeah. And he made fun of her for being an American. I didn't notice she was an American until he said it. And then I was like, oh yeah.

[01:11:35] Oh yeah. No, he is. Yeah. Perry was not a popular companion either. Um, yeah, I, I think the, the best serial for me for Colin Baker is the trial of a time Lord. And there you see the most compassion from him. It's also towards the end of Colin Baker's run. So I think he came out of the gates with a view of what he wanted his doctor to be. And it did mellow over time, but out of the gates, he's a bit of an ass.

[01:12:01] I mean, isn't the writers, I guess are to be blamed at least in equal measure. Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. No, I think that's really fair. The words are absolutely being put into his mouth. Yeah. Yeah. The, um, trial of the doctor, I almost watched it, but I just didn't have time to watch everything. Um, but it is the one that leads directly into time in the Ronnie. So I did wonder because time in the Ronnie starts with like, yeah, it starts with this regeneration. I'm like, well, wait, what did I miss at the end of the, of the last one?

[01:12:30] And I looked back, I was like, oh, it's this big series that I've heard a lot about before. Okay. That's for another time. Yeah. That's involving a different time Lord, which was my actual guess for what this time Lord was going to be this week. It was the, the Valley yard. Okay. Yeah. Well, so the Ronnie, um, she is established in the first serial as being a biochemist who's driven by science rather than malice. She's just, you know, she's like, you know, I have my experiments I'm trying to do.

[01:12:59] And, and there's just some unfortunate side effects by which she means, you know, people die. Yeah. And it is interesting though. She starts out as being, you know, she and the master, as we said, are often together. And the master is the one hell bent on revenge against the doctor in the beginning. And she's like, oh my God, that's so annoying. I don't care about the doctor. I'm just trying to do my own science work. But then the doctor keeps thwarting her over this and the next.

[01:13:26] And then she shows up again in the 30th anniversary in 1993, which was during the dark years when there was no who, um, they did this dimensions in time, children in need crossover with East Enders. Yeah. I think it's a non-canon adventure. Yeah. Okay. That's fair. But, um, they, it ends up just being like this kind of chaotic cameo fest of basically anyone that they could find.

[01:13:53] And, um, but the Ronnie is in that one, like the master obsessed with taking revenge on the doctor. So it's interesting. It'll be interesting to see where she falls on that, uh, in, in the new, new who, um, but it is interesting in the past incarnations, we see that she's messing a lot with like, she's able to pull the doctor's TARDIS out of where it wants to go. So that seems to be something we've been seeing in this season.

[01:14:22] Um, and, and Mel, who's back in the end of this season, she, in the time in the Ronnie one, she, uh, the Ronnie pretended to be Mel and did like a switcheroo with her. So I wonder if that will come back up again. Yeah. I think a lot of it comes down to what they remember the Ronnie can do. It does change. It does change. I would love an interaction between Mel and the Ronnie. I really would.

[01:14:49] I, I do love bringing back these time Lords and it would be a crime to not. I just feel like the Ronnie is strong enough to be the villain. I think she is, there is, there is enough of her to be the threat of the season without working towards Omega as well. But Ian shall stop whinging about that for now. Yeah. Yeah. I guess part of me hopes that they don't bring the doctor. I mean, sorry, the master back just yet, even though I am a master fan.

[01:15:18] Um, well, first of all, I'm every time they kill the master, I'm upset. I'm like, don't kill Missy. Don't kill Sasha. I want those incarnations again. Yeah. But that's the beauty of it. Like bringing back, um, Oh, um, what's his name? Dang it. The, the master, uh, Mr. Saxon, the first return of the master. Oh, his name. Yeah. I don't remember him.

[01:15:43] Him, I loved when he came back, even though he'd already regenerated and, and had a team up with, um, was with Missy, I believe. I think that was the first time we saw two different masters play together. So I always have this hope that even when they regenerate, they can still, they can still return. They can still come back. I mean, that's the serial I want to see is multiple masters versus multiple doctors. And just the, the chaos of, of that would be beautiful.

[01:16:11] But where does it end with, because Missy ended her arc kind of in a good place with the doctor. But then when we saw the next incarnation, well, we don't know that Sasha Darwin came after Missy because that's how timelines work. It could be in a different order. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, timey wimey. Yeah. One of the consistent things I do like is the master and the Rani's ability to work a TARDIS better than the doctor.

[01:16:39] Whenever we see them operate a TARDIS, it's like, oh, this is really easy. Yeah. Why is the doctor running around like a madman? And they're just like, boop, boop, boop, done. I, it just, it adds so much to the doctor's character for me. Right. Right. The doctor's just chaos personified. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I guess, um, I would like to see the Rani stand on her own, but I guess that's not already not the case because of the Omega of it all.

[01:17:05] Um, but just, yeah, I, I do know there's a bunch of audio dramas and books that feature the Rani. I don't know anything about them. I am guessing you don't either. No, I haven't dived in. It was during a time where my brain was like, if it's not canon, I'm not going to listen to it. Right. So I am much more open now. So I will, at some point, I'm going to start getting into them. I think. I like the audio dramas that I've heard of, to be honest, I've mostly listened to the Torchwood ones, but, um, but yeah, for anyone who has listened to the Rani stories, you

[01:17:35] know, please write in and tell us about them or, you know, or read. Uh, I do know that they call that version, the second Rani. So I'm wondering if this is the third Rani, but they haven't said so. So I think it's just sort of like ignoring that the books and audio dramas exist. Oh, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Unless there's something they really, really love. My, one of my issues that is kind of linked to what you said about the second and third Rani is she goes to a lot of effort of calling herself a time lady.

[01:18:02] And that didn't feel super necessary to me. And I wonder if there's something, I hope there's something else to it, but knowing that the, the doctor can be very gender fluid with regenerations, the specificity of time lady felt. odd. And maybe it's just because time Lord is, uh, has a very male connotation. So maybe there's an element of like reclaiming that, like I identify as a time lady, regardless

[01:18:30] of what gender I've regenerated into. I'm still a time lady. I'm still a time Lord. So it's where it's getting a little bit fuzzy for me. Yeah. And the Rani is also, um, a very gendered, you know, it means queen in Hindi. So I'm not sure what means king in Hindi, but would it be like with the master, when the master came back as a woman, um, the master called themselves Missy. So will that? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah.

[01:18:57] But I did also stick on that a little bit myself because I'm just not gender essentialism. I'm like, let's do less of that. But my guess is that it mostly just comes back to the fact that Kate O'Mara called herself a time lady in the original incarnation. And so they're winking at that. It may just be a Rani thing. Yeah. It may just be, she is the only time lady and she claims that, that title as time Lords quite like claiming titles. Hmm. Hmm. Um, my question though is still why the name Mrs. Flood?

[01:19:26] Like, did we just waste a bunch of time going down rabbit holes theorizing about the name Mrs. Flood or is that still going to mean something? Oh, I hope so. I mean, there's not much you can anagram with flood. Um, we know he likes, doof. Yeah. We're all a bunch of doofs. Um, yeah, I, I can't get out of my head. Just this flood of realities, like just the bleeding of everything in the flood that that creates.

[01:19:55] Um, it could be as, it could be as simple as that. Hmm. Okay. Okay. Well, yeah. So we now, uh, yeah, we live in a world where we've got the stories bleeding together from classic and present, uh, including. So I went back and I watched this week, the two Omega serials. So that's the three doctors from the classic season 10, the first serial of that season,

[01:20:22] and then arc of infinity from the first serial of season 20. So you, I know you, you like the three doctors, right? You and John have spent some time talking about it. Yeah, I really do. I, I really liked the interplay between, um, two and three. You'll see more of that in the five doctors, which is really interesting. They, I wonder if it's the generations that are closer to each other get along less. Hmm.

[01:20:51] Cause like, no, I, I was you. I'm greater than you. I'm hundreds of years older than you. Um, don't, don't, don't pretend. So their interplay is, is really fun. And just granddad doctor, um, being stuck in his little time triangle, Paul William Hartnell, um, just kind of like bickering with it. He, well, I couldn't get out of my brain was he's the youngest of them, but seems to be the smartest. Like he had a lot of the answers and he's guiding them towards the answers

[01:21:20] because technically the actor is older, but he's actually the youngest of the three doctors. I really love that serial. It's the first time we got to see really make the most of this conceit that you can have multiple actors playing the same character and just, that's so fun. That's so great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, Omega struck me as even for doctor who the most camp character, like just the way.

[01:21:49] It's hard to avoid any of that with the BBC who of the seventies and eighties camp is embedded into it. Hmm. Um, it is interesting though. So we had in this first serial, the three doctors, uh, Omega is an evil energy coming through a black hole. And as you said, yeah, Omega, cause I just watched it. So it's fresh in my head. Um, Omega discovered how to manipulate time by manipulating a singularity,

[01:22:15] but then was stuck there because he can't manipulate the singularity and get himself out of it. So he was trying to trap the doctors into taking his place. And then they're like, well, actually your entire body has disintegrated. So, uh, you just got to let us all go and die now. Nothing left of your buddy. Sorry. Yeah. And then when we see, um, 10 seasons later, when Omega comes back, it's, uh,

[01:22:42] Omega is now antimatter, which was the groundwork Wesley before and coming from an antimatter universe. And then again, you know, spoiler alert ends up being quote unquote killed at the end. And now we have, um, Omega is coming from the underverse, which is, I looked it up and is indeed in the 60th anniversary special, David Tennant referred to the toy maker as coming from the underverse. So, yeah.

[01:23:10] So it feels like it's kind of like this purgatory place where if energy and matter can't be destroyed, where does it go? And it seems that it goes to the underverse and just needs some vindicator to, to unleash it. All right. I just have to shout out two things about this arc of infinity, um, serial, which first

[01:23:37] of all, uh, it takes place in Amsterdam, which was a surreal surprise for me, for anyone who doesn't know I'm in Amsterdam. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. That must've been really special. And it's not just Amsterdam. It's Amsterdam in like the eighties, you know? So it was like, Oh wow. Phone booths. Right. Those used to be a thing. Oh, a month plan looks so much better without the phone booths. That's funny.

[01:24:03] Um, and it was, it's also, it's always funny to see things filmed in your own city too, because like at one point they go into Bob's youth hostel, which I know well, because they were in a partner of ours when I was a tour guide back in the day, RIP, they no longer exist after the pandemic. But, um, then she says, uh, Oh, how's Frickendale? That's not, that's nearby. I'm like, no, it's not. Then you see them at one point running in the East of the city and then turning a corner and being on the West of the city. You know?

[01:24:32] Oh, that's amazing. That's something you can only really appreciate as a local. That's so fun. Yeah. Um, the other fun thing about it, quote, I'm using air quotes here is that, uh, so this is with the fifth doctor who's low key, one of my favorites, maybe my favorite of the classics so far. And what's his name? Davidson. Peter Davidson. Peter Davidson. Yeah. I always want to, like, I hear Pete in my head, but then I'm like, that can't be because

[01:25:00] of Pete Davidson, the, Oh yes. The SNL actor. Yeah. Well, I remember that actually when, um, he was getting really big and I was like, wait, why is my, what am I, why is one of my favorite doctor who's getting big in America? What's happening here? No, there's a D in that. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so arc of infinity is a fifth doctor story, but the sixth doctor, this is

[01:25:25] before his time he's in it playing a different kind of evil time Lord. And I'm like, who looked at that character and was like, yes, that's the personality we need for the next doctor. It's kind of wild, isn't it? And I would have watched, um, I was so young the first time that I watched these episodes, I would have gone to Colin Baker and not realized that he'd reappeared. So it was much, much later when I watched the serial and I was like, wait a second, you

[01:25:52] stole his face, but we weren't in a time where they acknowledged that. So it was just completely brushed under the, and brushed under the carpet. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well there is of course a lot of Omega audio dramas, books and comics and stuff too. So again, if anyone has read or listened to any of those, uh, let us know what we've missed or if you recommend any of them. Um, and speaking of feedback, we do have three more pieces of feedback today.

[01:26:20] Uh, let's start with, shall we, shall we take turns? Oh yeah, let's do it. Shall I take the French? Oh, please do, please. I will be banished. Um, we're sorry, John's not here to read this, but thank you, Jordan. Our dear friend of the pod says, Salut mes amis. Alors, let the Quebecois point out to mes amis américains that the, um, that America did indeed have a version of Eurovision with Kelly Clarkson and Snoop Dogg as the host

[01:26:49] and famous singers such as Macy Gray, Jewel, Cisco, and Michael Bolton. Oh, that's incredible. And this does, I mean, I wasn't living there, um, but it does ring a bell that I heard something about this. What did they call it? Mea culpa. Thank you, Jordan, for reminding us. Yeah. Thank you. Jordan says loving the season of who I freaked my husband out. Squeeze, uh, squeezing when Susan popped up. Finally, just truly loving and shooty and Davies together.

[01:27:18] Also loving the Davies is once again, pulling heavily on obscure classic who moments and tying them into this new lore. And again, and shooty is just such a natural. I'm cutting the queue, please. And thanks. Thanks again for covering who amongst your very busy schedule. But if you're like me, who has actually been a fun stop off show between and or in the last of us. And yeah, I also, if anyone who's into who, uh, definitely check out murder bots.

[01:27:47] Uh, that's also airing right now because these have been my two refuges from the emotional trauma of and or in the last of us. That is definitely what it is. And PS love that we've now solidly established mavity. Hilarious. Yeah. I love mavity. I'm all here for mavity. That's great. Sante. Thank you, Jordan. Uh, do you want to take Connor? Yeah. So we have a message from Connor.

[01:28:16] Uh, greetings hounds, a long time listener, first time feedbacker. Yay. Woo hoo. I just wanted to firstly say I adore your content and cannot wait for your takes on the big reveal from episode six. I'm really sorry if my big take made anybody miserable. I am still having fun. I will say, uh, Ian was talking about the Valley art and made a common mistake. Oh no. And I wanted to clarify before it messes with your understanding.

[01:28:43] Ian used the words between the doctor's 12th and 13th regeneration. This is not what the master said during the arc. And now this is why you don't remind, why you don't rely on your smooth brain to remember things. Let's see what I got wrong. There's so much who. So much who. Uh, in the trial of the time Lord, the master refers to the Valley art's origins as being between the doctor's 12th and final incarnation. Ah, ha, ha.

[01:29:11] Uh, I think this distinction is important because it means the Valley art could happen at any point since Matt Smith regenerated him being the 12th face of the doctor, considering the war doctor and the 10 two, or since the time Lord victorious, because that version of 10 is the 11th regeneration or 12th incarnation. However, did I get that wrong? How did I, that's so clear. How did I make a mistake? And where does the fugitive doctor fit into all this? We still don't know.

[01:29:37] Isn't the fugitive doctor pre all of the other doctors? We don't know. We don't know. Because before the fugitive doctor did not remember Jodie Whittaker's doctor nor vice versa, but it seems this season, Nshuti does remember stuff from being the fugitive doctor. So what does it all mean? What does it all mean? So I, I'm relieved because I am technically right, which is the most important kind of right. So at the time it was firm.

[01:30:06] 13 lives was absolutely firm, uncontradictable, unless you're the master. Um, they really, really like played into that as you cannot, you cannot go past 13. So when they say 12 and final, that is very sneaky because yeah, at the time you, I do remember that firmly as 13 because that is the end for the doctor. Um, and I always remember as a kid, how are they going to do this?

[01:30:33] How are they going to get around it when stuff like that really matters to my 12 year old brain of you can't break the rules. Um, yeah, there's, yeah, exactly. Just change them. Uh, so that's a very important distinction. So yeah, the Valleyard is all of the personified evil from the doctor 12 onwards. So yeah, Matt Smith onwards. Um, so yeah, could still come back at any point. And that's a story we haven't seen.

[01:31:01] The, is hanging there, like the creation of the Valleyard is a thing from, um, pool law that we haven't seen that's unexplored. So yeah, I would really, really like to say that. Yeah. Um, Connor finishes. Anyway, it's interesting to think about. Completely agree. Please keep up the amazing work. Thank you for the correction, Connor. I stand humbled. No, that's a great lower input. Thank you, Connor.

[01:31:27] Um, and our final mail for the week is from babe J. Hiya hounds. I just wanted to drop a line to say that I've been loving the pod and your reactions. Thank you. You guys cover a lot of shows and I'm happy you decided to add this to the roster. I don't have much to say besides sharing that I'm enjoying the season of the new, new who better than the first. It's been so hard to rank week by week as each one just seemed to get better. Not that I didn't like season one with Millie slash Ruby, but, uh, just the Belinda

[01:31:56] and doctor dynamics and season two stories feel more like the soft relaunch season one should have been like you all. I'm excited for the finale after our flood Ronnie by generation, which I'm still not sure how I feel about yet, but I'm happy to see where they are going with it. Um, as you most likely know by now, the actor playing kid and no, I didn't know this, what I'm about to say. Um, I didn't clock this, but this is a good one.

[01:32:22] Um, the actor playing kid in episode six was Freddie Fox, otherwise known as Gwayne Hightower from house of the dragon. Good point sharing because when he showed up, I kept trying to figure out where I knew him from and thought I'd share it in case, um, it might've been the same for others. And indeed. Yeah. He looked vaguely familiar to me. I did not put that together. Thank you. It's all connected. It's all connected. House of the dragon. It's part of the doctor who universe. I believe it.

[01:32:53] They've already established Star Trek is so. No, no, stop it. No, I mean, don't, don't you dare. Don't you open that can of worms? We, we do not have another two hours to podcast. Okay. All right. Well, I hope it comes up again someday and then I want to hear your takes. Yes. Um, and babe says, thank you for the coverage and keep up the great work and all the shows you cover at Laney. Thank you, Laney. Amazing. Yeah.

[01:33:21] So next week, the finale for this season, hopefully not the end of the Disney era, but possibly. So enjoy the big budget. It's called the reality war and we got no teasers in the credits. So no, we didn't. Although I didn't know. I was like, well, what did they redact this time? Maybe this is the Valley Yard coming back, but yeah, there was, there was, and there was nothing else. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see if they add more twists. It's like all the lore, all the lore. All of it.

[01:33:51] Get it all. Yeah. If you have, we want to hear your own thoughts about our thoughts about the show, about everything. Send your feedback to TARDIS at the lorehounds.com. And you can also jump into our discord server via the link tree in the show notes to join the Doctor Who conversation there. We have under current shows currently a Doctor Who forum with, with threads per episode.

[01:34:15] So we also have a weekly, our and or episodes are, we're done with the main episodes. We are still going to do a wrap up episode, uh, probably next week. And also next week is the finale of the last of us. In addition to the finale of Doctor Who, and we are doing weekly coverage of murder bot right now. Um, do check out the recent sinners and thunderbolts, one shots and supercast and Patreon subscribers.

[01:34:43] You of course get ad free access to all of our podcasts and bonus content, plus the extra and or, and other season pass content stuff. Plus all the extra, extra episodes. Like we just put out, um, for our 11 Z's movie club, we put out a real pain. There's going to be in quick succession, uh, another second breakfast and 11 Z's coming out where, uh, there's voting open now for next month's 11 Z's it's David's month. And we're doing the Gene Hackman film fest.

[01:35:12] So we selected three Gene Hackman films. Um, I know the French connection is winning right now. As well it should. I hope Superman for the quest for peace. It's not on there. I'm so sorry. What a crime. What an absolute crime. For some reason, David wanted to choose ones where Gene Hackman got to play a significant role that was not stupid. You know, I don't, I don't. Yeah. Superman four is right up there. That's confusing. Okay.

[01:35:41] Uh, but if you are a subscriber, then you can also vote in that poll as well. Um, do check out the link tree also for the affiliates. Nevermind the music they just did. Uh, us, their latest episode was about one of my favorite songs from when I was young. The sweater song. From these, from. We said, yes, that's a girl. I could, I could talk for hours about that. It's so good. Anyway, yeah. So many layers.

[01:36:10] Yeah. They pick apart all the layers of the song, uh, from both the musical and psychological perspective. Uh, radioactive ramblings. They've been doing fallout lore. Um, do check out also rings and rituals and properly Howard and my own will shift dust and the star wars cannon timeline podcast again, all in the, in the link tree in the show notes. And, um, okay. Do you have any final thoughts before I do my final shout out of thank yous? Yeah.

[01:36:39] Just dug a do, dug a do, dug a do, dug a, dug a do, dug a do. Yeah. No, that's just, that's, that's all I have. I'm confident I'm going to really enjoy the finale because of sacrificing this episode. They sacrificed this episode to make a great finale. On the altar of the finale. Exactly. Yeah. Um, all right. So I like to play music for the thank yous. So, um, in honor of what is, I want to call it misery Cordia, but that's actually a French film that just came out.

[01:37:09] What? Desiderium. Oh, yep. That's the one. In honor of Desiderium, the new God of the Pantheon I've chosen from the children's folder, twirl. So thank you to our discord server boosters, Aaron K, Tiller, the thriller, Dork of the ninjas, Doove 71, Athena Adjalea, Tina, Lestu, Nancy M, Ghost of Partition, and Radioactive Richard. Thank you to everyone listening. If you would like to share this with any other Doctor Who fans or should be Doctor Who

[01:37:39] fans, we would really appreciate it. And also if you leave nice thoughts wherever you're listening, we have to thank all of our subscribers, especially most of all, our highest tier, our lore masters, Samarshan, Michael G, Michelle E, Brian P, SC, Peter O.H., Adam S, Nancy M, Doove 71, Brian A.D.H. 63, Frederick H, Sarah L, Gareth C, Matthew M, Sarah M, Andra B, Kwong Yu, Deadeye Jedi Bob,

[01:38:06] Nathan T, Alex V, Sub Zero, Aaron K, Dally V, Mothership 61, Narls, Kathy W, Lestu, Jeffrey B, Elisa U, Neil F, Ben B, Scott F, Stephen N, Julia F, Carly S, Ilmariel, forward slash Tim, Paul K, and always last, Audrion. And I'm not sad that song's over. As my own private hell, just put me in a room and play that song. How did it get more twirly as it went on?

[01:38:35] That's the goal of the song. Just like Doctor Who. Yes. The Lorehounds Podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds Podcasts at patreon.com slash thelorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening. Bye. Bye.