Doctor Who - S02E08 - The Reality War

[00:00:18] Welcome back to the Sonic Screwcast, The Lorehounds look into the heart of the TARDIS. I'm John, a man with no wishes left to give after the Doctor ended them all. I'm Alicia, apparently the only woman who remembers that we were supposed to get some resolution about Susan. And oh, hello! I'm Ian, ready to try to piece together the puzzle of the Reality War. Doctor, you knew who season 2 finale and ask where this all goes from here?

[00:00:46] Oh boy, we've got a heck of an episode ahead of us for discussion, critique, maybe a little praise? We'll say. Spoilers for the episode, big reveals. I mean, probably the biggest set of reveals for the whole season. And I'm supposed to give my thoughts on Episode 7 here, which is that I generally liked Episode 7, and I had a lot of hopes and dreams for Episode 8. They are, you know, some of them fulfilled, I guess. Hmm. We'll see. Grumble.

[00:01:16] Grumble. We'll see. I think you two did a great job breaking it down last time. Let's get right into the Reality War. Alicia, can you give us some details? Um, yeah, this one was also written by Russell T. Davies, and the official plot tease was, The battle rages across the skies as the unholy trinity unleashes their deadly ambition. The Doctor, Belinda, and Ruby have to risk everything in the quest to save one innocent life. So what was your hot take, Jim? Oh.

[00:01:46] Oh. Um, we need a new show runner. Like, I'm just gonna be honest with you here. I think the man, I love RTD. I think he did a great job in his first run most of the time. Uh, I think he's kind of out of ideas with this set of characters. And that's okay. Like, we all have a limited set of ideas that we would have with running the same show. Um, I, I just think that this is starting to show its cracks a little bit more. Mm-hmm.

[00:02:16] And, um, I think you said this, Alicia, off-air, which is, we had the same exact issue last season, which was all these mysteries set up and not a lot of payoff in the, in the finale. Um, sorry by the way, my, my voice a little shot. There was a DJ that was way too loud at this wedding I was at. Mm-hmm. And I had to talk over it when people asked me questions. And now I have no voice. Mm-hmm. So. Oh, I'm sure it was the DJ. Yeah, definitely. It was the DJ force-feeding you alcohol. Yeah, I'm sure that was it.

[00:02:46] No, actually, they were watering down the drinks. I, I, I, we, we, my friends and I, so my, my, my friends, ones of us, they, they said, hey, you know, let's all do a shot to celebrate. And, uh, they passed her on the shots. And, uh, and we all took the shot and looked at each other and went, that was water, right? Like, that was, that was water with a splash of tequila. That's amazing. They actually did you a favor then. That was a kindness.

[00:03:11] I, I, my wife and I looked at each other and we got an Uber home because we were being responsible. And, uh, she goes, I could drive right now. Like this, I am sober, stone cold sober. Was it an open bar? Yes, it was. They didn't need to pay for that, yeah. Okay. It was, but I was like, yeah. Yeah. But they made the, the, whoever paid for the wedding had to pay for that. So. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. I hope you do that. All their water. Yeah.

[00:03:39] No, I was, I was sober like the whole night. Anyway. All right. The point is. I wish I hadn't been during Doctor Who. Doctor Who. So I came home and I watched this. And, uh, I was, I was like, oh, kind of disappointed by this. There were, there were some cool moments. I thought that there were some fun things with, with Belinda and Ruby, you know, glad we're keeping Ruby along a little longer, but, uh, that I, I don't know where the show's going.

[00:04:06] I think that's the problem is like, there's no exciting. There's both no exciting next step and no, no fresh start, you know, like we're supposedly continuing with the same set of mysteries, but like we didn't get any good reveals by the end of this. And, uh, I gotta be honest, Billy Piper seems like stunt casting to me. Well, I think it was a, a panic casting. You brought up the reshoots in February. Yes.

[00:04:34] I, I, I've heard that. And by the way, I saw a leak of Billy Piper's casting like two weeks ago or whatever, whenever it started leaking. And I, I wish I didn't see it cause I would have been more surprised, but I, I saw this. And so I don't know if withholding press access to these really did any help. Uh, but I, I saw this leak and I was like, you know, maybe it could work. I'm not totally against it.

[00:05:02] Um, I, I, I'm, I'm actually not totally against her being the doctor. I just think that the timing of it is so bad. Like shooty deserved at least another season. I think it was his choice, right? I know. I know. But I think it was his choice because what I heard was it was because Disney is so up in the air and they don't know when this will continue or something. So it's like, well, he's at, he said like his career is taking off.

[00:05:30] He obviously can't just be on hold on contract indefinitely. Right. Right. It's, it's a shame. I do think it was circumstances that forced him out, not really like his own volition, but I mean, we, we can't speculate all night. Um, I, I liked the 15th doctor, but I'm going to have a hard time placing him in rankings because I didn't get to know him very much. Like Eccleston had fewer episodes than I feel like I know his doctor better. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah.

[00:05:59] He just an extremely underdeveloped doctor and that's not his fault. That's just the fault of the, the, the show going down to eight episodes a season and, uh, and the writing being very, very shallow for him. I don't understand it. Um, but yeah, I mean, overall just like kind of disappointed, especially with the Susan stuff. I saw this comment on Reddit that I agree with that said, someone needs to sit RTD down and say, uh, Caroline Ford is 84. It's now or never. But I think that's it.

[00:06:28] I think that was the now or never that we got. Really? You don't think we're going to do anything ever again? Well, what was the point of it then? It was just to have her on screen again. That was purely it. It was like, cause I think they had some regrets about not getting, I know the brigadier turned up in the Sarah Jane adventures, but, um, uh, Nicholas, I forgot his full name, but the guy who played the brigadier asked way before he could appear on Dr. Who, I believe.

[00:06:54] And I just think that's the, it was, let's get her into the TARDIS in a shot because maybe she's not even up to doing a full arc or something. And it's better to do this than nothing at all. So yeah, I, I think that's it for Susan, unless the doctor may explain some stuff, but as far as Caroline Ford goes, I think that's it. I mean, they could have, they could have had Susan regenerate into, but then, yeah, just, just while you have her here, she can just sit in the TARDIS, but just explain how she's

[00:07:24] the granddaughter, where she's been, anything. Just give us anything other than just grandfather. Remember when I used to say grandfather. Yeah, it was, it was a lot of stunts, right? Mm-hmm. It just felt like a lot of like, remember? Mm-hmm. And I had Ian's, I had, I had Ian's criticism from last episode in my head the whole time You infected us. No, I'm just kidding. No, but it's a really valid criticism and I hadn't thought about it before is this

[00:07:51] fact that they said, oh, there's a soft reboot to bring new fans in. Mm-hmm. And every episode, not every episode, but like a lot of these episodes have either classic who things or now we're going full on Rose is the doctor. And you're like, well, that means nothing to you if you started watching what's Judy's first season. It is, um, I think it's a tactical misstep. I get it. I get the, the rebranding to season one makes it less intimidating.

[00:08:19] Like this is a great onboarding point, but then it is so sneaky to tie it. Tie in as much lore as has been tied into old, old who it's not a sprinkling. It's not, this is the universe you live in. It's, this is crucial knowledge that everybody is like, oh, I get that. And you're like, no, I don't get that at all. And you can get away with that if you're telling a great story and you're executing it really well.

[00:08:44] But I don't think any of that is really hitting, um, especially with the finale. Yeah. I mean, other than the Daleks showing up in season series one of the, of new who there's really not a lot of Gallifrey talk, right? Like there's not a lot of like time Lord lore. It's just about the doctor himself. And if you're going to onboard, that's what it's got to be. Yeah. They didn't do that with this reboot.

[00:09:11] You barely got an onboarding with the doctor because there's a lot of setup for unit. He goes through two companions that need their own backstory and their own setup. Multiple episodes. I mean, shoot. He is shoot. He had 16 episodes. He's not in two of them. So he's bordering on having two seasons, but fewer episodes than Eccleston. So it's just, it's, it's misplanned.

[00:09:35] I feel like RTD perhaps had too much power and not enough people telling him no. Yeah. And maybe the BBC were fine with that after, um, the chibnallizing era. Hmm. All right. Well, that's enough complaining for me. Nope. Who's next? I will not promise that at all. Okay. All right. Ian, you go next. And I promised anyone who liked it, I will be the kindest of the three probably.

[00:10:04] Um, there were, I barely want to talk about the, the Omega Rani part of the episode. Like I, that was such a letdown disappointment for me. Uh, there were some highlights towards the end of the episode. Um, I don't even hate the Billy Piper-ness of it all. I actually quite enjoyed that. But, um, overall the episode did not, the, the, the analogy I made last week is that last

[00:10:33] week's episode sacrificed itself on the altar of this episode being excellent and having, uh, all of that set up to deliver a really cool story. And it didn't do that. It rushed through it. It was incredulously overwritten. Um, which is something I feel like some areas of doctor who can do better is explaining the, the exposition, the villains plan.

[00:10:58] And there were a bajillion words in this episode from the Rani and the doctor and Omega explaining all of the villainous things that are happening. Um, and then it ends pretty quickly so that we can do some more wrap up with Poppy and Ruby and then shoehorn that into the actual ending. So it's in terms of like a cohesive story, it isn't because there are so many different

[00:11:24] stories being told that aren't interwoven together very well for me. Um, so yeah, it was overall a, a disjointed mess of a finale for me. Hmm. And it does hurt me to say it because I, I love all of the ingredients here, but I hate the meal that I'm being served. Yeah. Um, yeah, um, I was telling you guys that I had a very different experience watching it

[00:11:49] the first time and watching it, rewatching it this morning, um, to do these notes. And, um, I, I, I was really wrapped up when I, I watched it live and a part of me really liked the fact that I was watching it. You know, we, we talked, we didn't get any, um, the episodes later this week because we didn't, uh, get any early access to watch it and prep or anything like that. But there was something really nice about like watching it and talking live with my friends about it and stuff.

[00:12:18] Um, yeah. And I, I really, I felt a lot of emotions, you know, there was sadness, but it was, it was a bittersweet sadness. Um, I did think I was sad about Archie Punjabi's Ronnie being gone so soon. Um, I was, by the way, her husband's name is Raj apparently, which means Ronnie means queen and Hindi and Raj means king.

[00:12:42] Anyway, um, that, that casting is just, that's the most, that's the best story told in the whole of the season is the actress of the casting itself. I mean, I thought she was, yeah, I thought she was a great Ronnie personally. And so I'm sad to see her go. I'm sad to, this seems to be a goodbye to Belinda, I guess. But I mean, I guess not Ruby because there's still questions in the air about her.

[00:13:09] Um, and then of course, Shuti and yeah, we, we've talked a bit about that, but so I, there was, um, a sadness, but it wasn't necessarily a bad thing. There was a lot of questions, but then when I rewatched it this morning, it just kind of, I don't know, my opinion shifting also because I've started rewatching the ninth doctor episodes and I realized those are better. They're so good.

[00:13:35] Oh, and I'm watching the third doctor and I'm like, even Planet of the Spiders, which boy has its issues. I'm like, this is just a better story. Like it has a beginning, middle and end. It really does. Each serial really did. And that season one in particular, I, I think could, I don't know if it's underrated, properly rated, but for me, we don't talk about how great that first season was. But that was the same writer. So, you know, what happened?

[00:14:03] Because now the complaints that we had about the last show runner Chibnall, um, I was just rewatching, you know, some of, some of his better episodes, uh, toward the end of the Jodie Whittaker era. And it has a lot of the same problems that these do. Like, it feels like RTD2 has more in common with the Chibnall era than with his prior era where it's just a mess of ideas. You know, what's so weird about that? Like Chibnall, I was thinking about this.

[00:14:33] Chibnall wrote Broadchurch, which is a masterpiece. Like the first season of Broadchurch is a masterpiece and it has such subtle exposition. And then most Chibnall episodes are like, hello, I'm the doctor. And here's exactly what's going to happen today. It's just, it's just exposition dump after exposition dump. And it's so weird. Yeah. It makes me start to question, question the wider machine of the writer's room and how that operates and what pressures there are, because it feels like I know, I know RTD is

[00:15:02] capable of so much more. I've just was watching him do, um, a really emotional Dalek episode in the first season, you know, of all. Did he write that though? Hmm. Good question. But he wrote a lot of, yeah. Okay. But he wrote a lot of really good episodes of Doctor Who and he's also behind years and years, which is a show I love. And yeah. Yeah. My understanding is that he had a hand in basically every episode. If he didn't write it, he had, he was doing the rewrite.

[00:15:31] So his vision was in basically everything from, um, Eccleston to tenant. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. But it feels like also in the end, you know, we were talking about this as, as this whole Disney thing was supposed to be onboarding new people. And then by the end of the season, it felt more, especially that grab at the end with Billy Piper, it felt more like they're trying to get back older fans rather than win new ones.

[00:15:58] So I feel like they've given up on the Disney side of it. Um, and then they're just like, no, please come back old fans. Uh, well, we promised to make you care again, but then you have to make me care in this episode, which they did. Cause I was, I don't know. I guess I've ambivalent feelings. I think it's completely fine to be right in the middle of this one. Cause I think that kind of sums up how it doesn't land really.

[00:16:25] Like it can, it really takes you through the ringer and what you were saying about the Chibnall era and how this feels like that. It kind of like got my brain going a little bit and I'm desperately trying to put what this, why this era pretty much since Jodie Whittaker feels so different to old who. And I feel like Dr. Who was always a show kind of aimed at children, but it was like, it was an adult show that

[00:16:53] aimed, that was aimed at children. I feel like it's become, it's kind of like reversed. It's now a child show that is being towards adults and it, we're being talked down to a lot instead of just making something grown up that children will appreciate as well. Um, so yeah, it's, it's just something, it, it almost feels like, and this is going to be like a heretical thing to say, but the reverence is kind of gone.

[00:17:21] And I don't mean a protective reverence where you can't touch anything and you can't change anything, but it's kind of like we can do whatever we want because it's Dr. Who. And yes, that is true, but that doesn't mean you don't need some guide rails as well. And you don't need some parameters. It's not just everything will be fantastic because the doctor is doing it. And it's in space. There's basic writing things in effect here where if you set up mysteries, solve them

[00:17:47] in the same season and not by pointing out a sign or I don't know, whatever, like creating more questions than answers like this finale did. Um, and like maybe I'm a little saltier because I ended up, I went back and watched a lot of Gallifrey lore episodes in the past couple weeks leading up to this. Um, I've rewatched also like the Gallifrey lore episodes from the modern run that I hadn't seen for a while. And, uh, yeah, no tie-ins with the timeless child.

[00:18:17] Um, the whole Susan thing they teased and then, and then what is, I don't know. I just, I wanted to believe, okay, Poppy could be Susan's mother. That would have been interesting to me. There's a dozen different ways you could have gone that direction. But now you just left me with more questions instead of like just delivering some version of that answer that was clearly right in front of us and would have been satisfying.

[00:18:41] Um, spent all this time setting up the Pantheon and they ended up playing no important role in this finale, which again, I would mind less if we knew when we were going to next see any Doctor Who at all, other than we'll talk about the other show. But, um, yeah, I, I'm just, I did all this stuff for tinfoil hat theory corner, but we're just going to skip it this time. I'll bring up anything that's relevant, but there's just like, it feels like there's no point in talking about the past lore.

[00:19:09] So it's like, you're bringing in all this past lore, but then it's like the main character, the Doctor forgets, like he forgets the last two times he interacted with Omega or whatever they're pronouncing it now. Yeah. That was, that was so weird. It's like, why did the Doctor go like, I've faced this guy before? I mean, especially because Kate's like, Kate's like my dad faced, um, Omega before and like with whom, with whom, with the Doctor perhaps twice.

[00:19:36] Like, and the Doctor's like in legend, they say, I'm like, you've met Omega at least twice. Like, well, he did, he did say it's been a long time. So there was an acknowledgement there, but there wasn't, he, he, it did seem like. He remembered the Toymaker, which was earlier. Yeah. Yeah. It just, it seemed like he, he completely omitted the part where Omega wasn't really the bad guy. He ended up being the villain, but the intents were good.

[00:20:04] Like just the important stuff, if you're going to bring back this person and, and get people into old Doctor Who lore, it's like they didn't rewatch the episode. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. My feeling. Yeah. And there was also all that meta stuff they set up with Mrs. Flood and the fans earlier in the season. Like, I thought that that was exciting and hopefully going in a cool direction, but just no explanation. And Mrs. Flood just doesn't talk to the camera anymore for no reason.

[00:20:30] Um, what was, why tease us twice about Rogue and then just leave it like that? Like, I understand this probably has to do with and shoot to leaving sooner than expected, but Jonathan Groff being big and they, they shot that during the shooting of last. Right. No, right, right. Exactly. But then it's like, okay, so you're just going to leave this character in the hell dimension. At least they could have shot a, some scene to resolve it. And now it's like, well, I want it resolved, but it's, if it's another doctor, it's not going to be the same, you know?

[00:21:00] Um, yeah, he doesn't get to say goodbye to this doctor. Exactly. Exactly. I have thoughts on what they're going to do with regeneration and Billy Piper and whatnot, but, but finish, finish your thoughts first. And then I want to go into that a little bit. All right. So, I mean, I just, I agree with you. I'm ready for a new writer's room overall. I want the Disney money, but I don't think we're getting it. Um, I am intrigued. Did you guys watch the trailer for the war between the land and the sea that was released?

[00:21:31] Oh, you mean Twitter blats? Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's what I had. So I wrote it in the notes. It really could have been so much better a name. What, what is happening? Who had twiplets? And that's better. Twiplets. But it does, okay. So it's written by Russell T. Davis and, uh, Pete Matai, who wrote Lucky Day and other stuff in the past. Um, but it looks, um, I am excited about this trailer. It looks more grounded. Dare I say, I'm hoping it will be what I hoped secret invasion would be.

[00:22:01] Hmm. That's interesting. Yeah. I like that spin. So I, I don't know. I'm curious to see, because as we've said, like these writers, we know they're capable of nuanced, profound writing. Okay. Maybe nuance isn't so much in Russell T. Davies wheelhouse, but, um, I know he's capable of great things. So I'm very curious. How will this play out? We still don't have a date for when it's coming just 2025.

[00:22:25] And will that affect anything with the overall up in the airness about the future of Doctor Who? Mm-hmm. I'm so burned out right now. Uh, the trailer did look good. I did enjoy it. I do love these characters. I'm happy to spend time with them. I am cautiously, emphasis on cautiously, optimistic. Um, but I mean, the BBC doesn't really have form for letting things percolate either over time.

[00:22:53] So this could be a thing that like you grow with and it does great over like a few seasons, but there's almost too much riding on this first season being incredible that I think it has to do really, really well or it will disappear into, uh, Doctor Who history. Mm-hmm. Um, I just learned of the existence of a show called Class. I didn't even know it existed, but I'm going to watch it.

[00:23:20] Yeah, you and everyone else that it was ever born, it disappeared. It just came and went. I think it was meant to be aimed at like teens, but yeah, it just, it completely disappeared. Well, we sure did it, everyone. We sure, we sure took RTD down a peg. I don't want to do that, but what were you going to say about your, or do you want to save that till the end, your thoughts? I guess we could talk about it then, but you know what? I'm going to forget about it. Every time I say I'm going to save it to the end, I forget about it.

[00:23:48] Um, I, I, okay, here's my theory of where they're going with this. This is not the numbered 16th Doctor. Agreed. No. Billy Piper is a result of shooting regeneration energy into the heart of the TARDIS, which was the origin of Bad Wolf. Mm-hmm. And so this isn't Rose. This is Bad Wolf hijacking a regeneration. That's my theory. This is the Bad Wolf Doctor or the Rose Doctor.

[00:24:18] They're going to call it something like that. Yeah. I think likely to be like a David Tennant style specials. I agree. Kind of thing. And I think that they're reserving the, I think that they're going to do one of two things. If Shooty wants to come back, they will be like, oh, TARDIS did its thing. TARDIS hijacked the regeneration, pulling it back. And they're going to degenerate into Shooty. I think it's already degenerated. Oh, but I'm ching. Yeah.

[00:24:46] I do wonder, I did think, could that be a possibility? Because I would like to continue with his story if they can work it out. And I think that supports what you're saying. We got some statements from Billy Piper and RTD themselves. She said, it's no secret how much I love this show. And I have always said I would love to return to the Hooniverse as I have some of my best memories there. So to be given the opportunity to step back on that TARDIS one more time was just something I couldn't refuse.

[00:25:13] But who, how, why, and when, you'll just have to wait and see. And he said, Billy once changed the whole of television back in 2005, and now she's done it again. It's an honor and a hoot to welcome her back to the TARDIS. But quite how and why and who is a story yet to be told after 62 years of Doctor's adventures are only just beginning. So a lot of, I think they're saying right there, like, this is for a special. Yeah.

[00:25:40] And of course, the big thing in the credits, she wasn't credited as the Doctor. I, you, you've absolutely lifted my theory out of my brain, John, and stolen all of my thunder. Sorry. I mean, it's probably because it's, it's like, it's pretty much all right there. Yeah. That's, I, I think they haven't decided yet if Chuty is 100% out of the question.

[00:26:06] So I think this is a admittedly smart-ish way of putting a wedge in Regeneration Doorstop. And Billy Piper also tweeted or whatever social media thing she's on, a rose is a rose is a rose. So it is not beyond the realm of Doctor Who, because I don't think anything is, that this

[00:26:28] is, this is Rose forcing herself into the Doctor's Regeneration to resolve something over a special and then can either become the real 16. We can have her regenerate into a new 16 or bring Chuty back and degenerate. So yeah, it, I, I, I don't think there's any way that she's actually the new 16, which I kind of wouldn't have minded. I, yeah, I would, I would be fine with her being the 16th Doctor.

[00:26:57] It's again, I, my problem is Chuty leaving too early. My problem was not Billy Piper. Yeah. I, I, I would be fine if they, I think they're, they have the three possibilities now, right? They could either, uh, they could have Chuty back after he, you know, she degenerates if they're going to call it that kind of like the, they already did that right with the master taking over the Doctor's body and then degenerating back into Jody. Oh, reverse regeneration there. Yeah. Oh, sorry.

[00:27:26] I put that out of my brain cause I didn't like it. Yeah. It was stupid, but, but they did it. They've done it. It's in the Lord. Yeah. Um, and it would make sense. I just rewatched the parting of the ways recently, uh, with my wife cause I'm making her watch Doctor Who with me now. And, um, uh, they, you know, Christopher Eccleston kisses Rose and then, uh, takes the energy from bad wolf. And then that same energy gets passed along into the heart of the TARDIS.

[00:27:53] So I think it would make sense for bad wolf's essence to be in the TARDIS. Yeah, sure. What if bad wolf turned into the Valyard? I love it. Cool. Let's just bring back another bit of law. And let's just make the 14th Doctor kill Rose. Oh, wait, what? Wait, which one? Oh, no, that's a TARDIS. Stop it. Stop it. That was an evil laugh too, John. Bring me back. Bring me in, RTD. I gotcha.

[00:28:22] If they really want to break everything, they should bring in Georgia Tennant and make her 17. Oh, and she's the daughter of the doctor. Oh, it would be perfect. She, Susan regenerates into Georgia Tennant. Yeah. I saw a great clip of David Tennant at a con and they said, who's your favorite classic doctor? And he like looks to the side. He looks to both sides and he goes, I like the fifth doctor. That's his father-in-law.

[00:28:53] Yeah. Hey, the fifth doctor, the fifth and seventh are my favorites of the classic era. I've decided now that I've seen more of them. Brilliant picks. I love them. I think seven is massively underrated. I just watched the regeneration of Tom Baker. So I'm excited for my, my future classic who watching. The brilliant reaction to that regeneration is one of my favorites. He just like, here we go again. It's such a great regeneration. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:21] I loved, I loved John Pertwee's last few moments. He was a really good doctor. I was so reluctant with him at first because he's such a, he's such whiplash from Patrick Troughton. Yeah. He's so serious. But, but I really liked him by the end. Why are we talking about this right now? I gotta, I gotta move us on here. You know, we're talking about it. It's more interesting. I know it is more interesting. Okay. All right. Let's take a break and come back and talk about more about the episode.

[00:30:06] We're back. Alicia, can you bring us in?

[00:30:37] All right. Real. Real. The doctor gets Anita to hold open the door of the fake unit office so that reality can flow in and everyone present remembers who they are. So I was glad to see Anita back. I really liked her in the last Christmas special. She, yeah, she's pregnant. There were complaints about her only finding out that he's gay after she's spent like a year with him.

[00:31:05] But I don't know, is this doctor canonically gay or just pansexual? Rogue is the one other way. Yeah, I think he's pan everything. I think it didn't come up because he's just a being. He is an entity. I was a little bit miffed that she had those feelings for the doctor. I feel like we don't, he's a beautiful man. We don't have to have everybody fall in love with him. Yeah. I mean, I did get that feeling from the Christmas special, but I thought that they had like wrapped that up.

[00:31:34] I don't think they did not need to like, and to say, oh, and then I ran straight to Ricardo, head of HR. It's like, oh, that's a little bit, you can just have lived your life and met someone. And yes, it didn't have to be linked to you realizing the doctor was unavailable. Yeah. Yeah. Not great. Not great. But I did enjoy seeing her. And this whole part was probably my favorite part of the episode. Was I felt like we were going somewhere. We were bringing back the time hotel.

[00:32:03] Again, now we're tying up things that we started in these two seasons. I think that's great. It only became later that I got to be honest. Does anyone care about Poppy? I don't care about Poppy. I'm just going to be honest with you. At one point when it looks like they were going to head off and do the family thing, and maybe that was the plan before whatever, I was intrigued to see, okay, where's this going? What's yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:31] I always have the potential to care. The more and more we latched onto it, the less and less I cared. Which is, it just tells me the way they're telling the story just isn't for me. It's just, I didn't enjoy where it was going. What it, the one moment it led to where I was like, that is magical. Is the, which I'm jumping ahead a bit, is the folding of Poppy's jacket.

[00:32:54] That was a tingling way to tell that story and that, how you gradually forget that was probably the best bit of storytelling of the entire season. That was beautiful. I just want to shout out on the Discord, Polly has been posting some very funny summaries of these issues. So if you want to have a cathartic laugh, I recommend checking out this episode on the Discord.

[00:33:24] That's funny. Question though, okay, so this day has reset hundreds of times, but is this the first time the doctor was falling on the balcony? Did this day go differently than the others? Well, my biggest like, qualm with this is if you're going to Groundhog Day, Groundhog Day, like I would have enjoyed last week's episode so much more if you did a cause and effect time loop thing where they're repeating each day

[00:33:51] and they have to find the inconsistencies and they're gen, gen, gen, gen, not generally, slowly realizing, gradually, that's the G word I was looking for, gradually realizing that, wait, we've done this all before. Like, I don't know. That feels like a missed opportunity for the sake of a twist. The twist, like, why does the 24th never happen? Why does Earth disappear? It's because it doesn't exist. That wasn't, that twist wasn't satisfying.

[00:34:20] It didn't really do it for me. So to answer your actual question, Alicia, I think it has to be the first time because I don't know why Anita, if time doesn't, time is timey-wimey, I don't know why. I feel like that's the moment that Anita steps in and that's what messes it all up. Yeah. And so we find out all unit employees have microchip implants, which snaps them out of the wish, but it's also like, oh, okay. Yeah, that, oh my God.

[00:34:50] There's too much hand-waving. You know what it is? It's like, all right, that wouldn't be a problem in and of itself. Like, the silliness, the camp, the sort of like hand-wavy storytelling, that's part, that's the cost of admission for Doctor Who. Yes. All fine. But we put up with that because of the intense emotional payoffs at the end. Mm-hmm. And this episode failed to deliver those, making us notice all these little hand-wave moments. Mm-hmm.

[00:35:20] Yep. So I also have questions about, so the Vlynx and Rose Noble reappear because Conrad could not conceive of them in his reality. And I've seen people say that they are glad that they didn't like, you know, de-transition Rose and put her in the tent camp or whatever. Mm-hmm. But I still feel like, I don't know,

[00:35:47] I still feel a little off about the way it was handled. And then she's just one of the many characters who, because they try to do too much in one episode, all these characters just disappear into the background. Like, Anita just turns into Hodor for the rest of the episode. And I don't think we see Rose again. No. Have you ever met somebody like Conrad? They almost exclusively think about people like Rose. Yeah, that's a great point. That's a really good point.

[00:36:16] Yeah, we have an unhealthy obsession with people like Rose. Right. Like, I could see him saying like, oh, well, he wouldn't want somebody like you in here. But to say like, he couldn't imagine someone like you, I was like, I think he absolutely could imagine somebody like you. I think he does in his sleep. Yeah. I mean, but he imagines it wrong. And I guess I agree with the people who say we don't want to see his version of Rose. But yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I can buy that. I am also a little bothered. And this is a very minor quibble.

[00:36:46] They're talking about the Underverse. And then the Doctor's like, oh, it's, you know, they call it a dozen different things in different cultures. And this is a trope on Doctor Who a lot. It's fine. But like, the Upside Down and Narnia and Hell. I'm like, Narnia is lumped in with the Upside Down and Hell? What are we doing here? I guess it depends on your interpretation of those books. C.S. Lewis is like, excuse me. I'm sure it's someone's version of Hell. Yeah.

[00:37:15] That's J.R. Tolkien's version of Hell. Yes. He hated that shit. Anyway. Well, we're up to the Battle of the Bones. All right. Shall we take turns with this one? You two do it because my voice is just shot. And if I speak for this long, it's going to be bad. All right. Ian, you want to start? Yeah, I can't wait. Meanwhile, the Rani and Mrs. Flood get their clone form hunter seekers to find Omega or Omega or Omega, depending on who's saying it.

[00:37:45] Inventor of Time Lord time travel in the Underverse. The Rani also locates the Doctor with Conrad's help and teleports to Unit to confront him. She tells him he's been looking, she has been looking for the OG Time Lord Omega to release him from the Underverse to use his biology to revive the Time Lords because the Time Lords are sterile, shock, and cannot reap juice. With Omega located, the Rani returns to the Bone Tower to pull him back into the well,

[00:38:13] turning the Bone Beasts on Unit to distract them. Pew, pew, pew, pew. Susan Triad helps the Doctor build a zero box, whatever that is, with Poppy, in which Poppy will be protected from the fluctuations of the Wish to try to preserve her beyond the end of the fake world. Belinda says she wants to guard her. Ruby is outfitted with a transmat device, which I love that callback to a bit of Doctor Who tech, from Project Indigo,

[00:38:40] and the Doctor calls the Rani's flying Segway, and they both go to the Bone Tower to confront the Rani's and Omega. Omega has been feeding on the myths of the Underverse, turning into a mad Titan, not exactly a fitting father, to bring back the Time Lord race. He devours the Rani and Mrs. Flood noops out of there with a time ring, while Ruby uses the baby decider magic to wish of Conrad to be happy, so that he stops ruining other people's lives.

[00:39:09] The Doctor pulls the Vindicator off at the midnight clock. The Vindicator is now charged with the power of a billion supernovas, and the Doctor pew-pews that power to force Omega back into the Underverse, however that works. The Bone Palace disappears, revealing it was built around the TARDIS. The Doctor, Ruby, and Zudurim use it to escape back to Unit HQ, which is now back in the Avengers Tower. I love that you put the entire episode into three paragraphs so that we can just be done with it. I mean, there's details to pick at,

[00:39:39] but this is a lot of the blah-dee-dee-blah-blah part. Oh, so much. So many words. But you were right, Ian, about the Bonebeasts being basically dino-skeletons coming up from the Underverse, in a way. Yeah, just... There's always a feeding thing. RTD loves a being that feeds on something, and that attracts them. It's a trope that he's used again and again and again, so I couldn't help, after nearly 20 years, eye-rolling, of course they're feeding on something.

[00:40:09] Just cool. Okay. If you're going to make something up, just make up something else. Make up something new. Well, the best defense I saw of this online is, if it's the god of time, Kronos ate his children. That's like established Greek lore. I saw somebody post about this online, I was like, oh, that's clicking now. So I think that's what RTD was going for. I don't think it was executed well, but I see what he was going for here. I think Omega is supposed to be part of the pantheon. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I didn't hate it.

[00:40:38] I just felt like it was one, it was one of many things this episode where it had potential and it could have been, but it was just too much crammed into one thing. And I do have to wonder how much is like, where they just rearrange things at the end to deliver that new ending. And maybe there was before a more satisfying ending that tied these things together. Yeah. I think she got eaten at everyone. Although I do, I did think that the doctor sending Omega back to the abyss with the Vindicator, which looks like a guitar.

[00:41:08] That was a pretty metal moment in my esteem. I do think it's absolutely hilarious that fans begged for the Ronnie for 20 years just to get her eaten in two episodes. Yeah. It almost is like, oh, you wanted her? No, you didn't. I mean, we still have Mrs. Flood wherever she went, but yeah, I'm going to be a grumble stilt skin about this. The Ronnie says, what do you think you're going to do, doctor? You're going to come in here with a big speech and save the day. And I'm like, yeah, that's what the doctor does. I love it.

[00:41:38] So for me, like, yeah, it looked cool, but him using a souped up ray gun to shoot the bad guy back into its hole. It just kind of sums up what I'm not here for with doctor who, like I want a speech. I want the intellectual way that the doctor talks villains into submission or tricks them with some clever thing. Like he is words, he's not guns. So giving him a gun,

[00:42:08] whatever form it is, whatever it's firing, always just like, it's disappointing for me. Hmm. Okay. I need to pick at this whole question of the time Lord, you know, because, um, RTD said before this episode, what, how did he put it? It's going to like upend or something. The everything about time Lord law, Gallifrey and law, it's all going to change. But then, okay.

[00:42:35] So what we got is there was the time war and that's something that's been set up since the beginning of the new who run. And we've revisited it various times. Um, and you know, it's the question of who survived at first. It was only the doctor. And then they realized there was two and the other's the master. And now Ronnie slipped away, uh, because she reversed her DNA or whatever. It's like, you know what? Fine. I'm fine with that. It's in character. She would have totally run away. Um, she was exiled anyway, but, um, yeah, I, I do wonder first,

[00:43:05] she did have a TARDIS in previous incarnations, but I don't think they went back and watch the old episodes for some reason, but then time Lords are sterile. And, but then they say since they're sterile, since the genetic explosion is the genetic explosion, the death particle that the master set off last time we saw the spy master with, uh, Ascension of the Cybermen, the timeless children and revolution of the Daleks when he did the Rasputin dance, which was awesome. Yes. I,

[00:43:35] I did a lot of redditing to confirm that, but yes, I believe that that's true. Okay. So, so fine. Uh, the Ronnie survived the time war. Honestly, I'm perfectly fine with that. That makes sense. Okay. So the genetic explosion is that death particle that we saw. Um, but then, uh, okay. So the, the time Lords have been sterile since then, but not before then. So Susan, the doctor could have had a child before that, the, from which Susan is the grandchild.

[00:44:04] Um, but now since it didn't happen by generation is a response to that big, a new way to regenerate. Is that what you understand? Yeah, that's pretty much, it was, I think so. Like that's not how evolution works. Well, Hmm. Actually, no, it is not Alicia. They don't know. I mean, but there are single time Lord in existence, having the same mutation all of a sudden. Well, okay.

[00:44:33] But there are cases where like, uh, if, um, if there isn't another gender to mate with, uh, there are species that will like shift gender and stuff to find a way to reproduce things like that. Suddenly Doctor Who has a lot more connected connections to Jurassic Park than I ever thought it would. Just life finds a way is the answer. But by generation doesn't work if you don't want it to work as somehow, uh, somehow, uh, doctor knew that by he wasn't going to bi-generate.

[00:45:03] Uh huh. What the hell? But didn't also RTD say something about bi-generation could have happened in the past or has secretly always been there or some, I don't know. Oh, I remember that. Yeah. He said that it retroactively applied to all the doctors for a minute. He said that he sees it as that, but he never followed up on that. So I'm going to ignore that until I have further evidence. But the problem is it's not something said in the show, so we can ignore it. Yeah, exactly. That's my biggest problem still with bi-generation is that it's not necessary

[00:45:33] because you can have overlapping time streams. Like they still exist out there. You don't have to bi-generate. Right. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. I just want to point out, by the way, something that again, I don't, I have the feeling they didn't go back and rewatch their own old episodes, but, uh, in the heaven sent and hell bent episodes, which was a 12th Dr. Capaldi episodes, um, season nine episode 12 and 13, I think, um,

[00:46:01] they talk about a hybrid who would stand over, you know, the, the desolation of, of Gallifrey in the end. And they were all afraid of this hybrid and they thought maybe it was a human dial dialed thing. Cause it said two warrior races. And then they said, Oh, it was the doctor said, no, it's me. And then they're like, no, it's actually me and Clara together. But then Poppy was the hybrid for a moment. So I don't know. There's just, I don't think that's where they're going with it.

[00:46:28] I just constantly see ways where you could tie all this together and make it meaningful and make it make sense. And why are they leaving that all on the table? I think you're right. I don't think they did rewatch the older episodes. Um, just like nobody remembers the, it is in Canon. The doctor is half human. Um, yeah, well, yeah, but our TV, I mean, but that's it. They could have played with that. They could have done something satisfying with that in this.

[00:46:58] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and we still have the question of how many lives they get because the timeless child, you know, it's supposed to be 13 and then it got 13 more, but the timeless child makes it seem arbitrary, but I don't think we're ever going to revisit that. The timeless child. I don't know. No, not the time was the number of regenerations. I think the timeless child was there. Get out of jail free card forever. Yeah, I think so. I think from what, Oh man, my memory is going to be so bad,

[00:47:26] but from what I remember is the doctor was the template for how time Lords regenerate, but they couldn't do it as well as the original. So they were limited to 13 and, um, the doctor is unlimited now. Yeah. But we explicitly got where the doctor was given through a rift in time space. The time Lords gave him another set of regenerations. Um, at the end of Matt Smith's run, I was just, yeah,

[00:47:55] part of all this time I spent rewatching this stuff. They didn't rewatch it, put me in the writer's room. I don't think they want anybody in the writer's room who actually knows because they wouldn't write anything. So, but why couldn't they use the doctor and Ronnie's DNA to, you know, it's a great question. Okay. Yeah. What's special about Omega's biology that they had to bring him back from the underverse too. But also, because he's not, there's nothing special about it. He, yeah,

[00:48:24] he created time travel. He didn't create the time Lords. Right. Exactly. That's what I was thinking the whole time is like the timeless child basically said like, no, the doctor is the template for the, for the biology. Yeah. It was just Omega doing time travel. Yes. He's the scientist. Yep. He created a power source. He created a nuclear reactor. And it's possible that the Ronnie doesn't know this, but I feel like she does. I think it's possible that RTD doesn't know this. I don't know.

[00:48:54] At least we got, we got an acknowledgement that the Matt, that Mel and the Ronnie had met before. No explanation as to why Mel's apparently not in the, from the war between the land and the sea. And what was with, okay. So I don't like her. You can't trust her. And that's it. That's the whole confrontation. Like give Mel something meaningful to do. If you're going to have her meet an old enemy. Mel, Mel was impersonated by her, right? That was the whole plot line.

[00:49:21] I think Ruby is the only character other than the doctor that really got anything meaningful to do this episode. Completely agree. Yeah. Yeah. And Kate, who has never said a nice thing to the doctor in her life. That's not true. But like who, who is not sappy is just like, we're all your children. Yeah. That felt like it was meant to be a moment. And I'm like, that's not the definition of parenthood. No. That's not how that works.

[00:49:51] Parents are supposed to fight off alien threats. Of course. Yeah. Hmm. I'm sure they would. If presented with that challenge. Mm. Hmm. All right. Let's, let's go to the next scene. All right. Do we want to take a quick break before? No. Okay. All right. Uh, let's talk about fleeting family. The doctor uses Desiderium's magic to make one last wish. No more wishes. Hoping this will preserve Poppy's life in the real world. And when they open the zero box,

[00:50:21] it indeed seems that Poppy has made it. The doctor, Belinda and Ruby take the infant Desiderium now indistinguishable from a normal infant to Ruby's family who named him Joseph and agree to raise him back on the TARDIS. They set up a crib for Poppy and discuss their plans to travel as a family. But as they discuss their future, Poppy disappears. And immediately the doctor, Belinda and everyone at unit, except for Ruby forgets she ever existed. So they're leaving that, that baby there,

[00:50:51] Joseph who may have powers when he grows up. Um, yeah, this is the passing back and forth of the coat that turns into the cloth that turns into nothing moment you were talking about, which was great. Yeah. That was beautiful. And yeah, the, it leaves more questions again. Like why is Ruby the only one who remembers, which is okay. Uh, I thought that I had the answer to that when it came to wish world, but now that we have the bigger question, I don't know.

[00:51:18] I don't know that I no longer believe RTD has the answers to these questions, which is what bothers me. Right. That's the key. That's what really hurts is like, I am along for the ride if you know where it's going, but all of the evidence suggests it's make it up as you go along. Why was it snowing around Ruby? Like what? Yeah, that was meant to matter, wasn't it? And it never got resolved. And Poppy, why? Poppy from space babies. Is it,

[00:51:47] is it like when the doctor takes someone else's face in a regeneration? Like what? Yeah. I don't know if that's ever going to be answered. Um, okay. So, so here's where we get to a central critique of this. Belinda, who was extremely independent going, don't scan me. Don't, you know, get me home right now. She is given a baby. That's not hers. And forced into single motherhood by the doctor.

[00:52:16] And like, I've seen a defense of this online where people say, oh, well, it's not, it wasn't forced on her. This was actually her baby all along. And she couldn't remember because they were in the wish and they had erased it. But then why Poppy from reality? And why was, why was Poppy's face from space babies? I just, um, I don't, I don't think that this was her baby before. Like she was, no, no, right. Yeah. Uh, the history was rewritten.

[00:52:46] She had a roommate with a cat that got killed. Right. So now you have, you have forced this woman into, first of all, you sidelined her for the entire finale by like, like by locking her in a box. Oh my, that's one of my biggest critiques is way to sideline Belinda as the mom. Like, I don't even know if they realized how borderline offensive that is. Yeah. Here, take care of the kids. And if you could put the kettle on at the same time, that would be great. Especially after last episode,

[00:53:13] it was explicitly critiquing that where it was like, Oh yeah. Um, poppy's life is just, she's going to be the good girl, the good wife, and then the good mom. And then that's the story they give to Belinda. Right. That's, that's her ending. Like if RTD was trying to fight the patriarchy here with Conrad thing, I think RTD, RTD was the patriarchy all along. Way to be an accidental victim of it. My interpretation of that was the,

[00:53:42] the pouring energy into the TARDIS doing the, the, what was the, the shift? Was it one degree shift or something? Something like that. Yeah. The, they shifted into a reality where this is true. So we're not, this is a reality where Belinda did have a child. Um, and the reason the doctor doesn't remember is because in his reality, she didn't, but the only way to make Poppy exist is to exist in a reality where she does.

[00:54:11] That's the only thing that like makes sense to me. So what happened to the old Belinda? It just exists. Just, you know, multiple parallel timelines and it's just comfortable to be in this one because the kid still lives. Yeah. Yeah. So since we're already talking about this, um, uh, let me just read one more paragraph I wrote about this part, pointing to a bunch of little changes that have come about to reminding the doctor, how we remembered and saved her, uh,

[00:54:38] and saves her even when her own mother forgot her and saved Belinda's timeline. And so many others, Ruby convinces everyone that Poppy was real. The doctor believes the only way to save her is to use his own regeneration energy to nudge this timeline. One degree to bring Poppy back in this new version of the world. Belinda has always been Poppy's mother and Poppy is fully human. No longer the doctor's daughter. Yep. I just, yeah. I mean, here's a plate of patriarchy for you, Belinda.

[00:55:07] It was really like, Oh wow. That was a message that you made. And it's strange to me because like that universe where Poppy doesn't exist, still exists. Like if I don't feel like we're rewriting anything, I feel like it's creating a new branching timeline. It just, I don't know. It just, there's doctor who has never been best friends with science, but they've always been acquaintances and like some kind of logic. This just,

[00:55:35] it feels like it's just feels like such an incoherent way to end this story. And like bottom line, what's the message? Like, what's the theme? Like, yeah, every life matters, but I don't think you've delivered that with this theme. Like what, what are we trying to get from this story? Yeah. I, I liked that Ruby in the end just wished for Conrad to be happy because I do honestly think it would solve a lot of things. If, if these Conrads of the world were just happy on their own, they would stop trying to make other people miserable.

[00:56:05] But then my question is, were they implying that that wish is what messed everything else up where we got, you know, the, the, uh, teal is the wrong cover color and stuff now. Um, I don't know. I, I wasn't that, no, that was before the doctor shift, wasn't it? Yeah. That was, Oh, before the doctor shift. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was the result of Ruby sending Conrad. Right. Away. Maybe.

[00:56:34] So she did a good thing and they're saying that's what messed up the world. And, or is it just the entire wish world? Like the set of wishes when that was coming off, like things leaked in. I think I got it more like that. Hmm. Hmm. I don't know. I just want to point out that, um, so they said, I wonder if teal is going to be like mavity now where it's always going to be too blue. But also, so they brought up this Swedish Norwegian border shifting the teal thing. And then Ernest Borgnine, they said he's still alive. Um,

[00:57:03] he died by the way in 2012 and he would be 108 if he were still alive today. Oh, before we move on from the Swedish Norway border, where is bad wolf Bay? Hmm. It's in Norway. Hmm. Oh, interesting. And now Norway just got a little bit bigger. Why did they rewatch that episode? And not? Because RTD wrote it. I mean, a lot of the ones we're referencing, he also wrote, but he wrote a lot. So,

[00:57:33] I don't know. I think a lot of this has to do with the reshoots thing. Um, I do have to wonder how that messed up, messed with everything. I still, I, I shouldn't overthink how doctor who deals with alternate realities, but I have been like targeting episodes to rewatch that have to do with that. Like turn left, the Donna one with the beetle in the back, the trickster stuff with Sarah Jane, um, nine bringing up, like nine would say things about, for instance, this MP,

[00:58:03] Harriet Jones, that she would serve three terms. And, um, she obviously didn't. So is that an alternate reality? I don't know if they're ever going to, uh, it's, it's one of the, to get macro. It's one of the big reasons I have. Um, I think long term, my, my investment and my commitment shifted kind of like through my twenties into Star Trek, because there is my, my brain, just how my brain works,

[00:58:33] likes this consistency. And likes that. If I rewatch this enough, I'm going to put some more pieces together and I get some more history. The more I rewatch Dr. Who, the less it matters with more to who that comes. It's fair. There are no rules. It does not matter. So my enjoyment of Dr. Who comes much more from living in the moment, which it's sad because you do miss something. Hmm. Um, John, did you recognize Adelaus that I,

[00:59:02] yes, I did. Well, you pointed at the cell, like I pointed out. So yeah, so I had no choice. She was only there last episode. Okay. Yeah. Why I listened to, I listened to your last episode. I guess that's why. Hmm. Um, okay. I do have questions though, about whether things are being planned. It's still, it's just my human brain wants to claw at connections and make them happen. But so apparently Poppy's quote unquote, real father in this version of the world is, uh,

[00:59:28] Richie Akinbola and Akinbola is a Nigerian surname. So I'm like, okay, is there a link to the story in the engine episode to that? I did to couldn't bow. Um, the barber character, could that be a thing? And then one very explicit, they should have just already have started to explain this. But, uh, Anita says before she's like, she's like, okay, y'all forgot I was here, but I'm done Hodoring now. I've got to go back to work. Um, but they say,

[00:59:58] hello, by the way, the boss. And we last heard someone refer to the boss and the star beast when the meep said the boss is going to want to find out about this. So they, I don't know if that's really setting something up. If I, I hope the RTD knows who the boss is. Apparently he's been writing future seasons. So. Yeah. I've heard something about him having two seasons already plotted out and basically all of next season written, but I think he needs to honestly,

[01:00:28] like I loved the idea of an annual release, but I'm kind of now I'm like, uh, maybe you should take some feedback for it. Maybe less is more. Well, apparently we're going to get the next season 2027 at the earliest. I don't know if we'll even get, um, a holiday special this year. I think 2026, we'll get a holiday special. Hmm. Yeah. I don't, I don't know though. I don't know. Um, there's so much up in the air.

[01:00:56] I'm just thinking like what that means for Rose, because the next time we rejoin, it has to be to resolve the Rose thing. right, right, right. So, okay. The unexpected goodbye. The doctor's dying. He tells Belinda, he hopes to see her again, but he will have a different face. He returns to his TARDIS. The 13th doctor shows up to talk to him and then he regenerates, not quite alone. Joy, the star watches over him, revealing a new face that a former companion, Rose Tyler, AKA bad wolf. Um, so yeah, we talked a lot about her,

[01:01:26] about whether that might mean anything already. Uh, it was the biggest regen energy yet. And I wonder if that means anything like, I need a break before we talk about this. Okay.

[01:01:56] My regeneration energy has cooled. I mean, I don't know if you have anything more you guys want to say about, uh, the Rose Tyler of it all, or if we just want to talk about Jody Whittaker. Oh, Jody. Oh, that was so good. That was incredible. That was, that was without a doubt the highlight of the episode. It was, it actually is a great way to do a cameo in my opinion. Um, it was, it was so good to see her on screen and it just, it was bittersweet as well.

[01:02:25] Cause it just reminded me how, honestly, how little of her we got as well. And her version of the doctor because of many, many reasons that we've, we've, um, hinted upon. Um, it's, it's really interesting. Like I, I had the dialogue was so much better here and they actually had great chemistry together. Um, have you, have any of you seen the compilation that I don't remember if BBC put this out or a fan did it,

[01:02:52] but they put out a compilation of every time a doctor visits another doctor's TARDIS and they say, I don't like it. You've redecorated. I don't like it. it's great. It's one of my favorite running jokes. Yeah. I, I think two does it to three in the three doctors. That's the first time it happens. Yes. Uh, and that, you know, the David Tennant does it to Matt Smith in the 50th. There's, there's a whole lot of, there's a whole slew of them. I do like her TARDIS better. If I'm going to be honest, um, it's cozier and more, it's way too clean. Yeah.

[01:03:22] It's too, it like, it doesn't, there's no chairs, you know, we talked about that in the Christmas special, but honestly, the, the Matt Smith one, and this is my favorite because it reminds me so much of the fifth doctor's TARDIS. Um, okay. I, I just, I, that's the TARDIS I grew up with. So I am like, just that hits all the nostalgia for me. The, the gaming lights, not so much. The, like the RGB of it all. It's so bright.

[01:03:51] Does it really need to be bigger in a room defined by its bigness? I love that. That was good. I really like how lived in and, and just grimy the, and like by the seat of its pants, the TARDIS felt in, in both the RTD era and the Moffat era. I, I missed that a lot. It was, it was just like, it always felt like he was going to be, you know, like a mechanic under the console, just like throwing things out. Yeah. And I, I liked that.

[01:04:21] I think the way they explained it was that he's still recovering from, the war and from being, he didn't realize he was the war doctor, but he's recovering from a very violent error of his life. And the TARDIS reflects that as being a bit more rugged, a bit more on the edge and a bit more grimy. Yeah. That's how you do story things. RTD, you know this. I, I loved her comments. Or sorry, his comment when Jodie Whittaker showed up, I'm surprised it's not the other guy.

[01:04:50] He is always turning up because now, as soon as we saw Rose's face at the end, people are like, Oh, so that means we're getting more David Tennant. I'm like, well, we already have necessarily, we have three versions of him out there in the multiverse. Let's do something, but I don't know. I don't even know how, what I want them to do with that, but it's like, what was the point of bringing back 14 just to let him sit in a garden with

[01:05:17] Donna while there's another version of him sitting in another universe with a different Rose. it's an unnecessary resolution. We don't, we don't need it. The beauty of turning of, of 10, turning that hand into the doctor. That was a by generation, but it was so much more meaningful because he's giving Rose something that he can't give while he continues on. And guess what? Jodie turning up another reason why you don't need by generation.

[01:05:46] She is still out there. She's still doing things. All of the doctors are still out there doing things. You've, you've created a solution to a problem that didn't exist. She says, I've been popped out of my timeline, which is not normally the doctors can just meet because their timelines are all of time and space, but well, the first time they meet, I know you just watched this, right? Alicia is the, the time. They're like, we got to do all this. We got to use so much power to maintain the timeline. Okay. It really shouldn't happen. Like it's meant to be,

[01:06:16] become less of a big deal, but they, they always mentioned how many like stars and planets are being sacrificed. Yeah. And now they're like, Oh, hi. Yeah. Oh, hi. I'm here. Um, okay. But so she said she was popped out of her timeline because there is a big, great big time schism on its way caused by you. Him doing the whole, he, right after that, he did the whole shifting, the one degree thing. It's that supposed to have fixed it? Cause it seems to me like that would make it worse or so.

[01:06:46] I'm kind of hoping that this schism is actually still coming and they're just going to fix it all back. And Belinda gets to have her own life where she gets to actually meet someone and fall in love and do her hinge date or whatever. Yeah, maybe. Alicia, um, I want to tell you about a river in Egypt. I mean, I'm applying the clown makeup as we speak,

[01:07:13] but it might pop up if he needs it to. I can just, this is the problem. Like predictions are almost pointless because he'll refer back to it if he needs to, if not, it'll just be the reason to get Jodie Whittaker into the room. Yeah. Yeah. I just noticed now that I'm rewatching the beginning of, of this series, you know, the 2005 with the ninth doctor, it was, it was so grounded. It was, it all made like, it's wild, you know,

[01:07:42] Daleks show up and there's Slythines and all this stuff, but the plot points, you can do a logical recap without all this, but what, what I don't understand. And this contradicts like, no, it's just, there's a story that has a progression of events that add up to something in the end. Yeah. Yeah. It reveals for the sake of shock value, right? Yeah. It really feels like that. And I was hoping this soft reboot with shoot.

[01:08:11] He was going to draw a line under that. And the, the one benefit of by generation would be that is the doctor who that was, this is a reset where you are allowed to, we're going to be more grounded and we can do more individual stories and we don't have to worry, but they've doubled down on the nonsense completely. Yeah. Yeah. They need to reset the doctors. Um, amnesia, just have a doctor who is just figuring things out. Yeah. And the audience can go with them.

[01:08:41] That might be the next step is that we just have a complete reboot back to Dr. Who number one, him escaping Gallifrey. Yeah. Oh boy. Yeah. I don't know where you go from here. It's, it's a weird look, look, you can always fix Dr. Who. There's a million ways to reset everything. I just don't know. I think they got to get new writers in here. There's, they are rehashing ideas like, you know, like a brunch restaurant. Well, I wouldn't mind that at all.

[01:09:10] If you just brought them together in a satisfying way. And the thing is, they're just like, remember the, remember Omega? Everyone's wanted Omega. We didn't rewatch those episodes, but we said the name. So. Right. Also. Oh, and the hand waving, like the, the underworld is a, the under versus a land of legends. You know, like, okay, what does that mean? I'm okay with that. Like it's, it, I, we're only getting bitter about this stuff, I think,

[01:09:37] because it just ultimately left us in this unsatisfying place when we don't know when we're even going to get answers. Yeah. Yeah. And what fans are crying out for doesn't mean we shouldn't always be sated. We cry out for many things, but the vast majority of us are not writers and don't know what we're talking about. So don't give us all of the candy because it's not good for us before bedtime. not at once, at least like bring back Omega, but make it, it's, you know,

[01:10:06] a contained story that actually gives an entire story to that character. Don't just. Here's a parade of all the characters that have ever existed. Yeah. And don't just have the Ronnie smirk for two episodes and get eaten. Well, that's it. We had, we, it does a huge disservice to Omega. It does a huge disservice to Ronnie who are justifiably enough to be their own arc. Like the, the, um, the return of the master, the Mr.

[01:10:33] Saxon stuff that was just sprinkled throughout season two. Question mark. I think. Season two. Original three. Yeah. It was three. Cause Rose didn't deal with the Martha thing. There was another master who showed up briefly before that. Oh yeah. Season two was Cybermen versus the Daleks. Yeah. Yeah. And then season three was the master. We can destroy the Cybermen with one Dalek. You ever see people do the, uh,

[01:11:01] people do lipsticks to that where they do like the Dalek serving and they're, they're doing like a little dance, like, like a mean girls kind of thing. Oh, that's amazing. I love it. but the, it's just, that, that's how that, that for me was way more satisfying. That's how you, you can sprinkle a mystery. It doesn't have to be all the bad guys all at once. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, that writer back. Oh my God. We are,

[01:11:31] we are a complaining bunch today. I'm sorry, everyone, but you know what? Like we, it's cause we love the show. I, I just, you know, I'm, I'm 300 episodes into classic who I'm not, I'm not somebody who's going to shirk off this show. I just watch spiders jump on people's backs and, and take them over. And I was fine with it because at the end I got, I got John Pertwee laying on the floor going a tear, Sarah Jane. And I'm, I'm, I'm about to start bawling because it's so beautiful. And that's what I mean is like,

[01:12:00] you need that emotional payoff to make it work. And I think this one did, as I said, it impacted me emotionally, especially the first time I watched it. I just, I just, ultimately the way that I was left, I was, came into this so excited that we were going to get all these resolutions. And we got the opposite of that, where it's just untangling the things that I thought I already knew without explaining anything.

[01:12:31] But like, okay, you were emotionally affected one time, but are you ever going to be emotionally affected about it? I can't rewatching it because I'm not. I, and I watched this morning and I was a bit emotionally affected by the ending, but I, I mean, we'll see. It depends what happens next. I, I guess. I, I just mean, I could watch any of the previous regenerations and get emotional. Mm-hmm. Repeatedly. Any, any of them, even Jody's from my least favorite showrunner. I, I think, you know,

[01:13:00] tag, you're it. It always makes me go, wow, that's a great, that's a great last line. And, and especially, you know, I don't want to go. Amy coming back at, at 11s, amazing, beautiful. Mm-hmm. I, uh, I will always remember when the doctor was me, like, man, we had some banger last lines. Yeah, that's great. Did you guys ever see the curse of fatal death? I'm sure you've seen it. Yes. The, the one where it's, it was a comedy special, so it's not canon or anything, but it has, um,

[01:13:30] it was during the dark time, what, before they revived Dr. Who and we have, and I suppose it came out shortly after that, that movie, um, the eighth doctor movie was supposed to, to restart the whole thing and, and didn't. Um, and so it's a funny special overall. We've got what Rowan Atkinson, we've got, uh, Richard E. Grant, we've got Hugh Grant, we've, anyway, it's, it's, it's a funny episode, but making lovingly making fun of Dr. Who. But then at the end, uh,

[01:14:00] the companion says to him, doctor, listen to me. You can't die. You're too, you're too nice, too brave, too kind, and far, far too silly. You're like father Christmas, the wizard of Oz, Scooby doo. And I love you very much. And we all need you. You simply cannot die. And, um, this was said, yeah, like I said, during, after that, uh, attempt to revive with Paul McGann fell through. And obviously this was like a really heartfelt plea amidst the comedy, but I'm feeling it again with this, you know, where I'm like,

[01:14:31] don't go out like this, not like this. Yeah. I, I, I don't think that the show is getting canceled for sure. I, I, or, or do you mean shoot his doctor? Well, that too, but also, yeah, just the uncertainty of the future. Um, BBC is not going to let this die. Disney might let the, but BBC is not going to. It's definitely coming back on the BBC, but the Disney deal is, is up in the air. Yeah. Okay. I honestly am fine if they lose the Disney money. I don't think the budget added much.

[01:15:01] I thought doctor who looked better in the Whitaker era. Well, I read, um, uh, I don't know. I completely agree. It does look good, but I read an article that said the, um, most of that Disney money went to filming in 4k versus 2k because the BBC is 2k, but Disney insists on being four. So, uh, I think a lot of that extra money literally just went on the CGI. to make it broadcastable on,

[01:15:31] on Disney plus, but I, I don't know. I feel like it would benefit from having less budget because guess what? It didn't have back in the day. It had cardboard monsters and horrible sets. And sometimes that strong arms you into telling a better story. Right. Right. You can't rely on it anymore. Yeah. Well, here we are everyone in this moment of silence for the, uh, the RTD era. I wish we had more shooty.

[01:16:01] I, I, uh, I'm glad we got what we got, but I, I overall, I think we need more episodes because something, and this is not just a doctor who problem is I think in the modern era of streaming, we've lost the, uh, the do nothing episodes. Like filler had a purpose. It helped flesh out the characters. It helped, it helped flesh out like their relationships. I feel like we haven't had like a, like a new earth episode, you know,

[01:16:30] like where it's just kind of like a simple plot and we get to see Rose and the doctor be a little cutesy. And then, you know, it just, just advances the relationships more than it advances the plot. Mm. Yeah. I think I agree. I actually, I feel like we need fewer TV shows with more seasons. Yeah. Yeah. It's probably true. Well, we have feedback. Does anyone want to read it?

[01:17:00] Sure. Okay. I'll read it. I think my voice has recovered enough. Everyone's depressed right now. Jesus. all right. Tori says, hi, need to make sure I'm not going crazy after reality wars. I'm having a hard time believing that the story is wrapped because one in season two, episode one, Belinda clearly lives with roommates. Whereas this final episode completely admits that and leads us to believe she lives in this house with Poppy. And two, Belinda doesn't remember giving birth to Poppy and wish world. If Poppy had been her daughter all along,

[01:17:28] wouldn't she have at least remembered giving birth? Looking forward to your review of this episode. Yeah. I think we mostly covered this already. Yeah. Yeah. Not her daughter. He shifted reality and now it became her daughter in this new reality. Yeah. It's a first time. So it takes away her own life. Yeah. Which means he didn't actually fix anything. No. He just moved to a universe where the problem is already solved. That's true. So is that other universe without a doctor now? Like what's going on? Yeah. That's what I wonder. I wonder. Mm-hmm. Yep.

[01:17:59] Yeah. That could be intriguing to pull at. I just need more confidence again in the readiness and willingness and ability to answer those questions. I wonder if this universe is the one with Rose in it. Well, and give us a post-credits scene or something that shows the universe he left behind without a doctor and how dangerous that becomes.

[01:18:22] And that then kind of sets up maybe the doctor has to travel back to his prime universe, whatever that is.

[01:19:00] Yeah. The whirlwind.

[01:19:30] The whirlwind. Seem totally irrelevant in the end. And nothing seems to be wrapped up or else wrapped up too neatly. And I am unsure if that is the point or if things are just bleeding out into the time and space. What about Susan? What about Rogue?

[01:20:12] And seriously, what the fuck was all that poppy business? Dr. Rose or not? And now to search for your coverage. Thanks as always. Always makes my day when a Lorehounds cast pops up on the pod feed. P.S. Looking forward to Foundation Season 3. Thanks, Jordan. And thanks for the Quebecois as always. Yeah. And so, as we said, we don't know when this is who proper is coming back, but we do have a trailer for the war between the land and the sea.

[01:20:42] And we know it's going to be a five-part series. It's written by Russell T. Davies and Pete Matai. And it's, yeah, going to be directed by the guy who directed 73 Yards and Dot and Bubble, which were both good episodes. So, I have high hopes for it. Release date. Yeah. Release date 2025? Not telling us when. We know it's going to be a unit with Kate and Shirley and Colonel Ibrahim.

[01:21:11] Apparently no Mel or Rose or the other people for some reason. But there is going to be General Austin Pierce from Torchwood. So, I'm glad that I have a Torchwood rewatch lined up because I don't really remember him. And new characters played by Russell Tovey and Gugu Mbatha-Raw. And we know that she is playing a very different looking sea devil. I'm going to rewatch the sea devil episodes that have existed so far.

[01:21:37] I don't know if that's going to mean anything, but... Everything says no. Basically, they're older than humans. They see Earth as their own. The classic Who episodes where they show up are... The serials where they show up are... The Sea Devils is the first one. Season 9 of Classic Who, which is the third Doctor. Serial 3 of that season. Frontier in Space, season 10. Serial 3.

[01:22:04] Warriors of the Deep, season 21, which is the fifth Doctor. Serial 1. You love that one. Yeah. I'm going to rewatch... I'm going to watch all of those. And I'm going to rewatch again the one that I don't like. The only one I've seen. The new Who one toward the end of the Whittaker era. The Legend of the Sea Devils, which was a 2022 Easter special. I forgot that even existed. It was... I just rewatched it recently. It was... Yeah. Still disappointing. Which is funny because it's sandwiched by two great episodes. Like...

[01:22:33] It was a penultimate episode with Jodie Whittaker, actually. It's wild. It seems like they're going a new direction. It seems very adult, the new show. It just reminds me of a time when Doctor Who would... Like, hey, wouldn't it be cool if we had Sea Devils? And like, this is their... Like, this is what they do. They were on Earth longer than humans. Like, I don't know. Just because you have a lot of history behind you doesn't mean you have to keep rehashing it. Yeah, but the Sea Devils are just the Silurians in water.

[01:23:03] Yes. That's all it is. It's the same plot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like a funny thing to run off and do a spin-off on, but it looks so very different from everything else. And I am thoroughly intrigued. So... Yeah. Check out our Discord. We'll definitely be talking about it. I assume we'll do some coverage of it depending on when it pops up. But... Yeah, let's see. If it's out on Christmas, let's... Yeah. Let's talk.

[01:23:33] All right. Well, you can still send emails to us, TARDIS at the Lorehounds dot com. You can join our Discord server in the link for you in the show notes. You can check out our coverage of Murderbot still going weekly. Mm-hmm. And... One more Andor episode coming, or two more Andor episodes coming. Yeah. Other than the Andor episodes, I guess we're getting... Hopefully other stuff coming. I'm sure you have a Silmarillion stories and other stuff you had planned in the near future.

[01:24:00] So watch the Lorehounds main feed, of course, as the affiliates. And never mind the music. Radioactive ramblings. They just put out another... What's it? Fallout lore episode. Rings and Rituals. Properly Howard. We'll shift us. We're starting. Dune, finally. For reals. Today. And the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast covering the High Republic still. Um... And Supercast and Patreon stuff for the main Lorehounds feed.

[01:24:27] Gets ad-free access to all the Lorehounds episodes. Bonus content for the shows we do bonus content for. Including an upcoming Gene Hackman tribute film. And, uh... John and I are doing next week an MCU episode where we're going to say goodbye to the Sony Spider-Villainverse. Which was... All right, very cool. Which was even better than this finale. Sarcastically. Very nice. All right.

[01:24:56] So, thank you so much to everyone who's listening. If you would like to share this with anyone else who needed to vent about the Doctor Who finale, please do. Thank you especially to our Discord server boosters. Erin K. Tiller. The Thriller. Dork of the Ninjas. Doove71. Athena. Ajalea. Tina. Lestu. Nancy M. Ghost of Partition. And Radioactive Richard. Thank you to all of our Lorehounds subscribers. Especially to our highest tier. The Loremaster. Samartian. Michael G. Michelle E. Brian P. S.C. Peter O.H. Adam S. Nancy M. Doove71.

[01:25:25] Brian8063. Frederick H. Sarah L. Gareth C. Matthew M. Sarah M. Andra B. Kwong Yu. Dead Eye Jedi Bob. Nathan T. Alex V. Sub Zero. Erin K. Dally V. Mothership 61. Narls. Kathy W. Narls. Jeffrey B. Lisa U. Neil F. Ben B. Scott F. Stephen N. Julia F. Cole S. Ilmariel. Forward slash Jim. Paul K. And always last. Adrian. Thank you. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds.

[01:25:51] You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening.