Doctor Who - The 60th Anniversary Specials

[00:00:01] Okay, David, this is where we're supposed to choose a side. Green or black? John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life! So, we're not fighting? I thought this is where HBO wanted us to, like, pick sides and fight and stuff.

[00:00:24] Don't worry, I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod. But we seem to agree on one thing. We both really like this show. The politics, the drama, the lore! It was made for The Lorehounds.

[00:00:35] And since we just finished recapping season one, we couldn't be more ready to defend our black queen in the Dance of the Dragons.

[00:00:42] And with the season pass option in Supercast, listeners can get early ad-free access to each weekly scene-by-scene deep dive, plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections. See you in The Lorehounds podcast feed each week for our dragonfire hot, but probably positive, takes.

[00:01:00] The Lorehounds' House of the Dragon coverage is also safe for team green consumption. Side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore, a heartened conflict with itself, and an inescapable urge to read the book Fire and Blood by George R.R. Martin. Dragon seeds may experience burning.

[00:01:11] Hatch door, sewer! Welcome to the Sonic Screwcast. We're the Lorehounds, your guides to all of time and space. I'm John. And I'm Alicia. And this is our coverage of the BBC and Disney Plus series Doctor Who.

[00:01:42] In this episode, we'll be discussing the 360th anniversary special starring David Tennant and Catherine Tate, as well as our hopes for the future of Who. While we enjoy discussing the show amongst ourselves, we also want to hear from you.

[00:01:55] Please send us an email to lorehounds at thelorehounds.com or visit our website at thelorehounds.com slash contact and either use the contact form or use the built-in voicemail.

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[00:02:20] These help other listeners find us amongst all of the different rooms of the TARDIS for which there are increasingly large amounts of. Stick around to the end of the podcast for programming notes for us and our two affiliates, Properly Howard Movie Reviews and Alicia's Woolshift Dust podcast.

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[00:02:51] And we're also excited to welcome a guest this week. So we've brought in a ringer since clearly neither of us have the right accent. We've brought in my friend and my Who mentor, Simon Wolcott. Simon, welcome to the Lorehounds.

[00:03:11] Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much. Wow, what an intro. True story. Lovely to have you here, Simon. We're really excited to discuss this with someone, as Alicia said, with the credentials. I think this is going to be a great conversation all around. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:03:32] So we're going to start out by just talking about our personal backgrounds in Who. So for me, I basically just got into the new era.

[00:03:43] It was something I'd obviously heard of the show. I grew up in the US, so it wasn't like a big deal. It was present in the national psyche a bit.

[00:03:53] But it wasn't until like well into probably almost to Matt Smith's run that I started to watch and catch up. And I've been watching it ever since. And Simon, you have a much longer history, obviously.

[00:04:06] Yeah, well, obviously, being a Brit, you know, I'm actually from the UK. In the UK, Doctor Who is kind of, you could almost say it's as with humour and warm beer, it's part of our national character.

[00:04:20] It's been around forever. Well, we know actually it's been around for 60 years. So in the UK, you know, most kids, most people growing up have watched Doctor Who at one time or another.

[00:04:33] And of course, you know, I think the vast majority of people drift in and drift out of it. I mean, my first doctor was actually, I'm so old, my very first doctor was the third doctor, the third actor to play the role was John Pertwee.

[00:04:47] I just watched those episodes last night. Ah, okay. Okay. He was very suave and debonair and awfully English public school. Very stern.

[00:04:59] He had that vibe about him. But he was actually my first doctor. But interestingly, I watched, I believe, some episodes of the last series I ever did. And then my first ever regeneration was John Pertwee turning into Tom Baker.

[00:05:13] And I can remember that so clearly. It was many, many years ago. I can remember that so clearly because it was a real like, wow, it was a real shock.

[00:05:21] Because there was an episode where he was, I believe he was bitten by a giant spider. And then he fell on the floor. And then I remember at the time thinking, oh my God, he's gonna die. And then he changed. He did die.

[00:05:34] He regenerated. He regenerated and became Tom Baker. So were you not aware that the regeneration was even a possibility at this point? No. Okay.

[00:05:46] No, I was a kid. At this point, I really must have been five or six at that time. So I had no idea. Doctor Who was just for me something I knew because of the Daleks.

[00:05:58] And I knew it was a sci-fi and it was just a show that a lot of kids watch. But of course, at that point in time, I had no idea about the really the concept where he was from.

[00:06:08] I knew he had the TARDIS. I knew the police box and I knew he had the TARDIS. But the mythology that's built up around Doctor Who and things like the regeneration. No, that was.

[00:06:19] So I think a lot of kids, when you first see that, it was really a big deal. It was quite surprising because suddenly, you know, and you can imagine it was the BBC in the 70s.

[00:06:29] And Doctor Who in those days really didn't have a very large budget. But it was still kind of mind blowing to see a regeneration.

[00:06:38] They probably used stop frame photography and mix it somehow. But it was quite amazing that he went from this grey haired, white haired guy into young guy with huge black curly hair.

[00:06:50] Tom Baker was really my doctor. And then he regenerated into Peter Davidson, which became the fifth doctor.

[00:06:59] And I watched by that time, I was already, I think, in my early teens. And I watched some of the series. But I think I actually kind of stopped watching it around that time.

[00:07:10] So I really didn't watch it again until the restart or the show started again with David Tennant. No, it wasn't David Tennant, it was Christopher Eccleston.

[00:07:22] So what we call New Who started in 2004, 2005. So then I really got back into it from then because I think as a fan, and as a kid, I really was a big fan of Doctor Who.

[00:07:41] I was a bit of a geek. And I was really, really into it. But what I loved when the New Who started was that it actually had a significantly and obviously larger budget, much less production values than the earlier iteration of the show. Slythin's aside, of course.

[00:08:00] Well, there's still that jankiness built in. But the very fact that it was actually shot in film rather than video, and the sets didn't kind of, the sets in the show didn't shake when someone walked through the room.

[00:08:18] So you got me to watch the introduction to the master episodes with, I'm sorry, was his name John Petrie? John Pertwee, yeah.

[00:08:25] And my favorite thing in that was at one point a half deflated plastic chair swallows a man and that's just, that's the level of props we're working with here. Yeah, quite right. Yeah.

[00:08:40] Yeah, no, so I was just gonna say that, you know, as an old Who fan, when the New Who began, it was just really, it became the show that I think a lot of fans wanted it to become.

[00:08:55] You know, so it had better budgets, more, you know, better budgets, better scenery, better actors. And Doctor Who was always about very good storytelling, but it didn't have the budget to back up the storytelling.

[00:09:10] And I think with RTD, the producer did when he rebooted it, he managed to somehow convince the BBC to invest a bit more money in it. And he also made it very much more relatable as well. And so, but I heard it was being rebooted.

[00:09:25] I was initially, or rebooted or restarted. I was initially a bit wary thinking, oh my God, what's going to happen? Are they going to ruin it? But it's just gone from strength to strength since then. Yeah. And John, when did you start watching?

[00:09:41] I started watching in 2013, I want to say. So just before the 50th. And I think I had heard from a friend about this. It was actually, I think a friend's little sister was like, this is the coolest show.

[00:09:56] And I don't know why, but I think it was on Netflix at the time. And I just booted it up and I watched some Eccleston episodes. And I don't think I was fully grabbed by the end of Rose.

[00:10:06] But I think that by the empty child, I was really in. I really want to watch all of this. That's the episode that really... Oh yeah. Are you my mummy? Yeah. Spooky kid with a gas mask. I think the horror episodes are the best ones for me.

[00:10:26] They are often the best, yeah. Yeah. What are they called? The Weeping Angels. Yeah, Blink. The Angels, yeah, Blink. I mean, Blink was an absolute modern classic. That's my all-time favorite. But that's like, the Doctor himself is hardly in it. It's a standalone...

[00:10:47] You can just watch it as a short film, anyone who hasn't watched anything else. Yeah, exactly. Again, it was fabulous storytelling, but it was also creepy, scary. And the genius of that was it took something so basic, i.e. the idea that you cannot blink.

[00:11:05] And of course, I don't know about you guys, but when I first watched it, I was actually trying to see how long I could go without blinking. Without blinking, yeah. And then you realize it's really, really incredibly difficult not to blink.

[00:11:19] Yeah, what's great about The Weeping Angels is that they... First of all, it's a very unique way they kill, right? As they send you back in time. That just feels very Doctor Who. It feels very timey-wimey.

[00:11:29] But also, it's really the only villain of the modern era that has reached the level of the Daleks and the Cybermen. Yeah. It's really the one that stuck around the most compared to any other villain in the modern era. Well, and the Master, but that's slightly different.

[00:11:42] Yeah, I see those as different classes of villains, right? There's the big bads, and then there's the armies. And I think that The Weeping Angels are in the same category as the Daleks and Cybermen. Yeah, absolutely. Like Davros is the same class as the Master.

[00:11:59] Right, okay, because he's like the mastermind, yeah. Right. Yeah, he's the commander of an army. But of course, I think what's also really incredibly creepy about the Angels is that unlike every other monster in Doctor Who, they don't speak. You don't actually hear them speaking.

[00:12:18] I think it was only in the Flux was the first time. I think in the Flux, maybe? They also spoke through— They spoke in the Flux, right? They spoke through—I don't know about the Flux because I haven't watched it yet,

[00:12:29] but they did speak through one of their victims in the first Matt Smith Angel episode. Ah, okay. Yeah. They like co-opted the voice. Yeah, but normally you don't see them as a monster. I mean, that's the nice thing. You don't see them moving, right?

[00:12:46] It's always kind of—you look away. It's always a shot away, cut away, and then they're closer and they're closer and they're closer, but you don't see them speaking. And that somehow I think that just from the fear element, that works so well. Yeah.

[00:12:59] I heard somebody point out that one of the things about Doctor Who villains is that they're relentless, that they just—they're not the strongest on their own often, but they just keep moving forward. It's like that horror movie It Follows, just steady onward right towards you.

[00:13:16] Right, yeah, yeah. Alicia, I see you have a bunch of these questions about Doctor Who preferences. Well, yeah, I'm just curious. Yeah, I'm just curious too, Silas. What is everyone's favorite Doctor? I'll start mine. Mine is Smith, Tennant's A Close Second. Okay. What about you, John?

[00:13:37] I think I would strike that reverse it. Okay. I really love Matt Smith, but I think that David Tennant was just like the guy who sold me on who the Doctor is. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Yeah. I'd have to agree. I'd have to agree.

[00:13:51] I think it would be David Tennant. I think Tennant somehow just—I don't know. He somehow just embodied the Doctor that was so perfectly, and obviously RTD obviously thinks the same, which is why he brought him back. Right. But I think Tennant.

[00:14:05] Yeah, I think Matt Smith also is a close second, and then for me it would be Tom Baker because that was my Doctor growing up. But it would really be definitely David Tennant.

[00:14:16] I will say that Peter Capaldi really grew on me by the end of his run too. I think he did a really amazing job, and I think he's an underrated Doctor. So I want to shout out him for a little bit.

[00:14:26] I like all of the ones in the modern era. Yeah. None of them that I dislike. I might dislike some of the writing, especially Jodie Whittaker. Agreed. Yeah. But I think that the casting of the Doctors has been great all around, including the new one.

[00:14:45] What about favorite showrunner? Simon, who's your favorite showrunner? I think for me it would be Stephen Moffat. Okay. Although some of my favorite episodes appeared during RTD's run. Maybe it would be Stephen Moffat is perhaps my favorite writer, and I would say RTD is my favorite showrunner.

[00:15:08] I agree with that. Difficult, but I think it would be that way because Moffat wrote. Obviously he wrote Blink, but he's written some great, great episodes. So yeah, I would say it's in that order. Yeah, I agree because RTD has the overarching stories that pull me in more.

[00:15:31] And I think RTD, he focuses more on the companions' lives, which I find interesting always. Yeah. He's my favorite companion. Yeah, because previously in old classic, the companions were often props that were just there to scream or to do action sequences.

[00:15:50] So some of the male companions were often there to just be there to do action sequences. Although there were a few strong characters like Sarah Jane Smith, who also appeared in New Who.

[00:16:04] But often they were kind of cardboard cut out just there to kind of look good and run and scream and shout. And the doctor would explain what's going on, but they weren't involved.

[00:16:17] And what I really like in the new era is, it's almost as if some of the assistants or companions, whatever you want to call them, are practically equals.

[00:16:28] And especially as we move to discussing the anniversary specials, especially the way that you see Donna interacts with the doctor, especially during the giggle. They're not just there to listen to the wise old time lord and do what he says. They really actually contribute.

[00:16:51] Right. I think that's fair. That's fair. Yeah. Who's your favorite companion? For me? Ooh, that's a good one. Well, my favorite for the modern era would definitely be Donna. Okay, fair.

[00:17:07] It's also because Catherine Tate, I don't know if you're familiar with her previous work, but she's actually a comedian. She actually had a very funny TV series called The Catherine Tate Show, where she plays a lot of different characters.

[00:17:23] And you can always see sometimes when Donna makes a funny comment, she does it and she makes multiple amusing comments throughout the specials.

[00:17:32] Sometimes I wonder if RTD just let her ad lib, because these are very much in line with one of the characters she plays, or used to play in her own show. These brilliant one-liners. Yeah, I think Donna Noble would definitely be my favorite.

[00:17:53] I have to say, I appreciate her more in this anniversary special than I have ever before. I always liked her well enough, but now I really appreciate her more.

[00:18:01] My favorite though was Martha, just because she was the first one that I saw that came in who was really like, she was a doctor, she did her own thing. And also my favorite Who thing is the spin-off Torchwood, and she appears there.

[00:18:15] I'm also going to name Gwen. I'd like to see Gwen back. Can I just, let's pour one out for Martha, who was done during the special. We won't do spoilers, but let's talk about it once we get in there.

[00:18:27] Yeah, and what about you? Do you have a favorite companion, John? My favorite companion, I guess I have to give you my favorite showrunner too. But my favorite companion, I'm going to say Bill, which I only watched recently. I didn't watch 12 until very recently, and now I'm on 13.

[00:18:44] I've watched through the first series of 13. But Bill honestly had a really good balance of what I liked about Donna and what I liked about other companions.

[00:18:52] Whereas Bill, she had this sort of questioning of the doctor and pushing him to do the right thing, but also had that wonder that I like to see in companions. Because it's nice to have a positive level with the doctor for the audience to view through.

[00:19:06] So I think Bill honestly was one of the best companions, maybe the best companion of the modern era. I'm not a Rose stan. I'm going to just come out and say that. I think Rose is tremendously overrated. You're going to upset a lot of people. Listen, she's fine.

[00:19:24] I find her rated. She's not my favorite, but her story overall and the way it ends, I find one of the most moving. Yeah, sure. And maybe this is unfair because I watched the first episode of the show, and I was like,

[00:19:38] I did empathize with Rose really well, and I related to Rose really well because I was 19. And I liked her a lot back then, and I was really devastated with her ending and all that.

[00:19:49] But now watching it the second time, I'm like, yeah, you're not contributing a lot to the situation. Maybe that's why I liked Martha so much, because when I watched her, I was like, I'm going to watch her again.

[00:20:02] Maybe that's why I liked Martha so much, because when she came in, it was like, okay, here's a woman who actually takes control of things, who has her own. She's not just the doctor's girl. She's her own person.

[00:20:16] I think you take out her pining over the doctor, and she's a perfect companion. But she unfortunately had that subplot, which is not her fault. It's the writing fault that I think took away, took some points away from the story.

[00:20:29] That was also why I think Donna was a breath of fresh air. It's clear she wasn't in the least bit interested in the relationship with the doctor. And so I think then you could just really focus on the shows without this silly, soppy subplot.

[00:20:47] So I thought that was good. Right. Yeah. John, did you have any other questions? I remember the first episode had a sexy monster, and I was like, eh, this is kind of silly. I don't remember that, to be honest.

[00:21:02] I mean, it is still in the Doctor Who universe, but a bit darker. It just felt very like, we're going to make this an adult show now. So now the monster has to deal with sex. And I think that's what's so funny about it.

[00:21:14] I think it's funny because it's a bit more adult. Maybe I'll go back. Maybe I'll like it better once I tell everyone. It's my favorite thing. But anyway, spoiler, no spoiler, Martha shows up there. Okay. Cool. Cool, cool. And I just want to comment on Showrunner.

[00:21:31] I actually agree. I think I would pick Moffat over RTD. Okay. I think I would pick Moffat over RTD. Okay. I think I would pick Moffat over RTD. Okay. I think I would pick Moffat over RTD. Okay. As far as a showrunner.

[00:21:47] I mean, I guess that was hedged in the end. But I think that RTD, it's different because he has a lot more highs. He has a lot higher highs rather. But I think Moffat has more highs and steadier highs. I think his seasons were always very good.

[00:22:07] And RTD had seasons where it would be great one episode and it would be hot garbage the next. And it's just inconsistent. But higher highs, though. Yes. Inconsistent but higher highs. That's how I would view RTD.

[00:22:26] And I hope that they have a little bit more quality control going forward on his new run. Maybe this is like the question clone wars or rebels for Star Wars fans. Yeah, right? And I pick clone wars, yeah. I like that Chibnall didn't even enter the conversation here.

[00:22:42] Yeah. Well, we grinned and bared it and now we're back. Yeah. Alicia, we never got your answer on showrunner. And I don't think. Oh, I was agreeing. I said RTD, I think, had the overall arcs that appealed to me more.

[00:22:58] But I agree that Moffat wrote a lot of my favorite episodes. Right. Okay. I wasn't sure if you were making a definitive statement on your favorite there. Yeah. All right. Well, that about does it, I think, for our histories and all our preferences.

[00:23:11] Do we want to do some spoiler free impressions on these specials? Sure. Yeah. Let's start with Simon. Okay. Well, the impressions first were wow. My impression would be a big wow. You know, I watched it. I watched them all on Disney Plus.

[00:23:31] The first thing that really grabs you is the resolution. It's 4K. Money, money, money. Yeah, it's 4K. But the cinematography is on a different level now. It just looks amazing. It's almost like, wow, is this still the same show? Right. It's now a Marvel show. Yeah.

[00:23:55] Practically in that league, it's really scaled up in terms of just the special effects, the general cinematography, the production values, which I thought in the previous series were pretty good anyway. But you can see that's also gone up a notch.

[00:24:11] The audio is also significantly better because here in the Netherlands, we get the BBC. On your cable subscription, you get BBC One. So I always used to watch Doctor Who on BBC One. I used to record it and watch it on BBC One.

[00:24:27] But the audio was always a bit muffled. I don't know why. The dialogue was always, I found it a bit below par. So I'd always watch it with subtitles. As a native English speaker, I'd have to have English subtitles on. But I can't hear without my subtitles.

[00:24:44] Yeah, I'm always subtitles anyway. Oh, OK. On literally everything I watch. It wouldn't make a difference for me. I wouldn't usually, but I always did for Doctor Who because I found the audio quality via the BBC just wasn't good. But on Disney+, it's crystal clear.

[00:25:02] It's really cinematic quality audio. It's fabulous. So that'd be my first impression. How about you, Alicia? Yeah, I mean, I was very pleased with this. It was, I knew exactly it was going to be. It's like, OK, we're going to do a fan service thing.

[00:25:17] We're going to go back to this story that has been in people's heads for however many years now. And we're going to introduce a new doctor and Neil Patrick Harris is going to show up. And all those things happened. And I was very happy with it.

[00:25:29] You know, like maybe some minor nits to pick. But at the same time, it being Doctor Who, I just don't take out the fine tooth comb as much. You know, it's more like rocking on vibes. Like, is it achieving emotionally what I need from it?

[00:25:47] And I would say these episodes really did. Yeah. What do you think, Sean? Yeah, I pretty much agree with that whole take. I think that, like you said, there are certainly nits to pick. I do think that this could have been stretched out to a full series.

[00:26:04] And it was a little bit rushed at times. But overall, I think they all worked. I think that the second is my favorite of the three. Yeah, me too. I think that it worked the best. But all three worked.

[00:26:17] They had told us going in that the first was going to be the most kid-friendly. And I think that made my expectations set a little better. Because I didn't expect it to be so dark. And it wasn't. It was not so dark.

[00:26:31] And it had a little bit of a simplified message, I think. A simplified moral message. But it worked. If you're saying like this one is the one for kids, go to the other two if you want something deeper. And that's fine. That's fine.

[00:26:44] So I think that overall it worked really well. It got me really excited to see what Shudi Gatwa does. Yeah, absolutely. And that's what it was meant to do. I am the case study because I didn't watch this for 10 years between Matt Smith and this.

[00:27:00] And then this got me so excited that this was coming that I re-watched everything I did watch. And I watched through Capaldi. And I'm almost done with Jodie Whittaker's era. And now I'm going to watch who going forward.

[00:27:14] So this did exactly what it was supposed to do for me. And I hope and I think other people are getting this experience too. Yeah, well, there's also other people we've been talking on the Discord server.

[00:27:23] And we were just talking with Jean about, you know, he's like, oh, I've fallen out of it. But now I want to catch up. And it's like, well, you know, they're restarting the numbering for the Shudi Gatwa era at season one again.

[00:27:34] So that's like a good time to jump in. And I think especially with it being on Disney Plus and thus all over the world, I think they're going to see a massive increase in numbers right now. Yeah, yeah, I think so too.

[00:27:46] And for the record, my favorite was actually number three was actually the giggle. I thought the giggle was epic. Okay. Yeah, no, I did. I have my minor nits with it.

[00:27:59] But overall, I love that episode too, because it did a lot of things that it needed to do very well in a balanced way. We're going to have to talk about the implications of the giggle once we get into spoilers.

[00:28:09] But for now, I think that's that's I think enough on spoiler free impressions. If you've not watched the three specials that are starring Catherine Tate and David Tennant, please go on Disney Plus. Watch the three specials now and come back after the break.

[00:28:24] They have just so you know, at the beginning of the first special, they have a little recap of what you need to know to understand the plot. So if you haven't caught up or haven't watched in ages, don't worry about that. Good point. Thanks, Alicia. All right.

[00:28:38] We will see you all after the break. And we're back. All right. Now that we're in the break, I think maybe let's just save our impressions for each episode. I think we gave our general impressions on the set. Let's just dive right into the Starbeast.

[00:29:13] That's the first special. Alicia, you have a lot of notes on these. And so I think I'm going to let you sort of talk about whatever subject you want to start with. Well, I just want to say I didn't know notice this one until afterwards.

[00:29:31] I know Simon, you saw it. I don't know if you did, John, but there was actually the some for some sort of charity special. There was the short with. Yes. Yes. Yeah. OK.

[00:29:43] So I know that there is there is a lot of brouhaha online where people feel like they are retconning things there. But I think people say the word retcon too quickly. I think I thought that that was delightful. What did you guys think of that short?

[00:29:56] Yeah, it was great. Yeah, I think the Dalek. Yeah, the Dalek short. I know that it showed Davros not being in a wheelchair, but. Yes. It's a show. Yeah, exactly. It's a show about time travel.

[00:30:08] So you don't know at what point in Davros's history did the doctor arrive, meet Davros. It could very well have been that he may have already had his first prototype before he was injured. So I don't think there's any issue with retconning anyway.

[00:30:27] It's time travel with multiple dimensions. And the doctor himself has crossed into multiple dimensions. Well, you know, one of the Rose stories, there was two dimensions, right? Where Rose met her father, who in the other dimension was a hugely successful businessman, etc.

[00:30:46] So this is a show where anything can be possible. It's been a multiverse show for a long time. Yeah, exactly. So I don't see why people would get upset over it. But I love the shorts, but the shorts are very good.

[00:30:58] Yeah, but I mean, I think there's just been a lot of like kicking up trouble before people wait and see what the actual story is like. The whole situation with Rose's name, the new character, Donna's daughter.

[00:31:11] And, you know, as soon as they announced this character is going to be called Rose, they're like, well, obviously, they're going to explain it. Just everybody calm down and wait and see what it is. I didn't see the outrage on that. That's fine. Yeah, I did.

[00:31:24] I did too. I think a lot of Doctor Who fans get triggered very easily. Yeah, they're not going to pretend that the other Rose doesn't exist. Clearly there's going to be some sort of link. Yeah.

[00:31:36] But yeah, like I said, this reunion, this was like Donna at her best for me. I loved when she called him Skinny Man. I just my heart grew three sizes. And the comment with the suit was great. Sorry, buddy. You can't wear that suit over 35.

[00:31:54] I was like, oh, you're attacking my favorite style. Right? You know, I heard on the Ringer podcast that they were talking about this, that I guess they had tried to make David Tennant look like the suit doesn't fit, but it just looked good on him.

[00:32:08] Like they wanted to be like, oh, this doesn't fit the doctor anymore. You know, like he's like, why do you look hotter now? It just works. He's a good looking guy. What are you going to do? And yeah, I love that Donna, she gave away her lottery tickets.

[00:32:29] Because she was like, and then later when she remembered, she's like, what the hell did I do? I gave away my fortune. Yeah. But even the way she says it, right, she's like, fine, I will help you save London.

[00:32:44] But first I'm going to yell about how I gave away all my money. I have time for me to rant about this. Yes. The audience has time for it, I assure. But yeah, the the meep was obviously the like, main special thing in this episode.

[00:33:03] Now, Simon, you were the one I didn't know before you mentioned it that the meep was based on some old comics. Did you? That's right. You grew up reading those or? Yes. Yeah. When I was a kid, I used to buy Doctor Who Weekly.

[00:33:15] It used to be called Doctor Who Weekly. It's now Doctor Who Monthly. So the magazine is still going strong. That's where RTD is often interviewed and gives hints to what's coming.

[00:33:27] But yeah, it used to be Doctor Who Weekly and it used to have a comic strip in there with a couple of stories.

[00:33:33] And the story that stood out clearly in my mind because it was such a shocker was precisely, you know, part of what was what this what the Starbeast was based on.

[00:33:44] It was pretty much that some kids discover this super cute looking alien who's hiding out in a shed in their garden. And then he becomes friends with the kids and tells them that, yeah, he's been hunted down by some evil doers.

[00:33:58] And but the doctor gets involved, the Tom Baker doctor gets involved. But then later, the meep switches into an evil doer when you discover he's an evil doer. So I knew obviously I knew that was going to happen because the story was based on it.

[00:34:13] But I thought it was absolutely brilliant. And one of the things that still stand out in my mind was Donna Noble saying, what was it she called him? Mad Paddington. Which I thought was hilarious.

[00:34:31] Yeah, I remember saying to you before when we were discussing the episode before it aired, I was like, oh, I was like, I'm going to need some meep merch. And like you laughed as one would, but you didn't say anything suspicious.

[00:34:44] But I immediately thought to myself, like, I bet this meep's going to turn out to be evil. And now I still want the meep merch, but I want like there are these stuffed animals you can find online called like feisty cats.

[00:34:58] And when you just look at them normally, they look cute. But when you squeeze them, their face contorts and they look evil. That'd be fun. Yeah, you know, I've seen Gremlins.

[00:35:10] That's the problem is that I was kind of expecting this to go Gremlin and to be a problem. But it was still a good way to do the twist, right? It was like, OK, enough with this. Fuck this. I'm going to shoot all you.

[00:35:25] It was very the way that they did this, which was really entertaining. Yeah, I know. But also I loved the scale of the threat, you know, as in his ship's going to take off and he's going to burn the hell out.

[00:35:38] He's going to burn the whole of London. I thought, you know, that's that's that's my kind of threat. Somehow it's usually it's like a baddie wants to take over the whole planet. And that's kind of, you know, it's old hat sci fi.

[00:35:52] But there was something about the idea that he was going to use London to burn London to get away. I thought that was also brilliant. Yeah, yeah.

[00:36:02] Yeah. And I also I like the twist that because they have the wrath warriors there and they're called frickin wrath warriors and the way they look, they just play our own prejudices against us. It's not the cute thing. It's the military looking species. That's the nice ones. Right.

[00:36:18] So do we want to talk about the mention of Wilf? Yeah. So it's nice that they let him still be alive. Mm hmm. Yeah. Even though the actor passed away, sadly.

[00:36:31] Yeah. But do we think that maybe that was David Tennant going, I love that man instead of the doctor? Hmm. Well, but I think also they were showing this is 14, not 10 and 14. He you know, he told he's like, oh, I say things like that now.

[00:36:48] And I think they're showing the transition to shooty who's obviously going to be more of a fusive doctor. Yeah. A warm. His feelings more more able to mention his past companions even.

[00:37:01] Can I I guess I could ask about this later, but Adrick, I that mentioned apparently that like tickled a bunch of people. And do you know this, Simon? Do you know who Adrick is? Yes. Yes. That was funny enough. Adrick was a companion of the fourth doctor.

[00:37:19] And then when the doctor regenerated into the fifth doctor, he was still with him. And then there was a story called Earth Shock. So classic. It's one of the last ones that I watched. In fact, it's a classic classic who story and involves the Cybermen.

[00:37:38] And this was a mathematics genius, I believe. And well, basically, he thought he could do something which he couldn't. And he was he was killed. So, well, he actually died. So in the modern era, he's really one that he was one of the first companion.

[00:37:57] Well, modern era and not sorry in the classic era. A couple of couple of companions have died apparently. But this was really in the era of the fourth and fifth doctor. It was a big, big thing.

[00:38:09] The doctor always saves the companion at the last minute no matter what. This one died. So that's why the address references such a big thing. Oh, interesting stuff from time to time.

[00:38:20] Well, I'll tell you, I'd still rather have the track record of classic who than the track record of Stephen Moffat as far as companions. Because if you're a Stephen Moffat companion, say goodbye. Yeah, that's right. Look at what happened with the Pons. Right.

[00:38:37] Which is also we'll get to the puppet show. This was in the puppet show. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's nice to see unit back now. There's been rumbling. Simon, what have you heard about these rumblings about a potential unit spin off? Yeah, I've heard about this as well.

[00:38:54] In fact, I think I shared and I share a link. You probably I'm repeating something back to you. You got to start following some who YouTube channel. Oh, OK. Yeah, there was a link.

[00:39:09] There was a story in one of the British national newspapers that mentioned a unit spin off. On the other hand, you never know if that's really true or if that's just a website, a new site doing clickbait.

[00:39:21] Because they know there's lots of who fans out there and they're going to click on it. That could be. So I don't know. I don't know. But I have a feeling when you look at the scale of the new unit headquarters, that looks very much like Avengers Tower.

[00:39:35] The Avengers. It's a nice set they got there. Welcome to Disney. Perhaps after that major investment, perhaps BBC and Disney want to get more of a more return on that. And perhaps there will be a unit series. It's certainly rumored.

[00:39:51] And I thought at the end of the previous special, the end of the episode. Well, actually, the end of the last episode of what's her name again? Am I going senile? The name of the previous. Jodie Whittaker.

[00:40:08] Jodie Whittaker, when the head of units was there with all the former companions. I actually mentioned, oh, I might want to give some of you a job. I'm not going to hire some of you. So I wonder if that was in itself a reference to a potential series.

[00:40:26] Yeah, exactly. And it feels something in these three specials. It feels like they're well, they're setting up Shirley Anne, especially a lot. Exactly. Yeah. Yes, I think there could be more because unit have appeared on and off in Doctor Who's history.

[00:40:42] And they've obviously featured in all of the modern Who era. But I've never seen them so prominently featured, if you get my drift. They're really kind of almost super integral. So it wouldn't surprise me because in a way, it does remind me of before the Torchwood series began.

[00:41:05] There were a number of references to Torchwood. Right, exactly. You remember in the, yeah, during David Tennant's era? There were references to Torchwood and Torchwood would appear a lot. Some of the characters would appear and be prominently featured. And then you had Torchwood.

[00:41:24] So I would, I'm not a gambling man, apart from when I eat out in Amsterdam. But I would say there is a good chance that there'll be a unit spin off. Yep. I'd agree. And I'd watch it, honestly. Yeah. I'm in for basically any spin off. That's fine.

[00:41:42] As long as just don't like overdo it, but they never do. And I've enjoyed the ones so far. Did you watch the Sarah Jane adventures? I, okay. Well, I've to admit that one, I only watched a couple episodes, but it wasn't really meant for me, was it?

[00:41:55] No, no. Yeah, fair enough. All the kids. Fair enough. I never really watched either. Yeah. Yeah, me either. I never saw a single episode. But. I've seen clips on YouTube, but I've never watched the entire episode.

[00:42:08] Speaking of kids, I hope that they also make those stuffed animals that they had in this episode, which we find out later are, you know, Rose kind of remembering through her mother through the. Yes. Food and the dog. Yeah.

[00:42:23] Knowing BBC merchandising, I'm 100% sure they will bring out all these characters, including the meat, will be toys. Yeah. I mean, they should have already, they should have had those for sale as soon as. Exactly, for Christmas. Especially for the holiday season. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yep.

[00:42:41] So I have a complaint about this. So the binary, non-binary, whatever, Bruja, that's fine. I just have to try to wrap my mind around what that means and why that saves Donna. But if it saves Donna, I'm fine with that. Yeah, I wasn't clear.

[00:42:59] It wasn't clear to me either. It just felt like they were throwing a bunch of words around. Yeah, exactly. There was a lot of techno babble around then too, so it might have just gotten mixed in.

[00:43:10] But I hope they don't do more, like they went a step too far when they said at one point, that's something a male presenting doctor would never understand. And I don't like those types of comments because I feel like that detracts from the point.

[00:43:24] And that's untrue because there's lots of very sensitive, empathetic male presenting people. So anyway. Yeah, ironically it just sounded like a male presenting person wrote that, right? Right, exactly. That's the problem. Exactly. It's circular. Yeah, just don't try to overcorrect. So just be real.

[00:43:44] But I think that they did handle the trans question throughout a lot of the episode. They handled it very well, especially at the beginning when Rose is like, I will burn down the world for you with these kids going after you.

[00:43:57] And her mom being like, oh, sometimes I don't know what to say. And that's real. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Donna Noble is descending now. Yes, I will descend. I love that. Some serious Mama Bear stuff. And then she spills a coffee and that's just silly shenanigans, doesn't it?

[00:44:19] So tea is fine. Coffee is not because the tea spilled, if you'll recall, David Tennant's first episode, the tea spilled into the TARDIS. Well, the TARDIS is British. Right. Yes, exactly.

[00:44:34] The steam wakes up David Tennant and actually cures him of his regeneration sickness, which is something that is just not a thing for Shudi Gatwa. But anyway, or for the 14th Doctor. I think both of them just kind of popped out. Right? Yeah, that's true.

[00:44:50] But yeah, but then coffee. Oh, that's going to mess you up. That's not going to work. What did you guys think of the upgraded screwdriver that had more abilities? Loved it. Well, that's Disney abilities, right? That's Disney money abilities.

[00:45:08] I think I loved it simply because, you know, as much as the sonic screwdriver has been around since the John Pertwee era. So since the third Doctor in the classic classic who he had the sonic screwdriver.

[00:45:21] But I think there was a point, I think it was during the Matt Smith era where I thought I even thought I was getting a bit silly now with the sonic screwdriver on, you know, what it could do. Yeah, they even started making jokes about it. Right?

[00:45:35] It doesn't have a wood setting. It's embarrassing. Yes, I thought it was getting a bit silly. Whereas I thought it was full redemption. I loved it. I loved the part where he drew the square. He drew the square and got a map out of it.

[00:45:54] It's much more visual, which ties in to the majority of young people nowadays anyway. Very digitally oriented. So it's much better than, you know, it's no longer the Star Trek tricorder.

[00:46:09] You know, someone looks at the device and says, oh, I can tell you smoke two years ago or something. Whereas now you get the visual readings that you, the audience, can see. I think that's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:46:24] I mean, it actually it makes more sense to use it to make holograms and for so many of its other functions. It's been used for over the year. Yeah, but I never questioned anything the sonic screwdriver can or can't do.

[00:46:36] The sonic screwdriver works the way this plot requires a sonic screwdriver to work. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think that they honestly because you didn't need this, right? You didn't need this scene. They could have just ran away like they usually do. Right.

[00:46:51] But I think that they added this scene specifically because they knew they were changing shooties so much. And they and the design of it, I should say. And they didn't want people to go, oh, well, now that it's a remote, it can do all these things suddenly.

[00:47:05] So now you can say, OK, it did it as the screwdriver shape too. So it's fine. It's not too many changes at once. I think it was actually very smart to have this scene. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:16] I think a lot of the stuff with these episodes, they are they're bridging the old idea of the doctor with what they want to be this new era of doctor to bring in new younger viewers and more warmer, more modern, more jaunty. Right. Yeah. All right.

[00:47:35] Well, that's a good conversation, I think, about the first special. Overall, I liked it. I think it sounds like you two liked it too. Is that right? Yeah. I loved it. It was great. It was just wonderful to have Doctor Who back on. Yeah.

[00:47:48] And it's so upgraded, you know, and seeing it's upgraded in every way with production values, cinematography, the sound. It was all kind of many wow factor moments. And it's just great to have it on. Right. Just like we have New New York, we have New New Who now.

[00:48:08] Yeah. We are ready to go with New New Who. Yeah. I mean, I think its first episode was my least favorite of the three. But that's like that saying, you know, it doesn't mean anything because I just like the other two so much. Right. Right. Yeah, that's fair.

[00:48:25] Shall we talk about the second one? Wild Blue Yonder. Yes. My favorite. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a class. I mean, it's a classic episode, even though it wasn't my favorite. I think it's a classic.

[00:48:37] If you look at all of New Who, which I guess I think I have watched every episode since it's been back on. All of New Who, I think this is just up there with some of the very best of New Who. Yeah. Yes. And again, horror.

[00:48:52] So they just know how to do that. Yeah. That and also it does something that they haven't done very many times, which is separate the Doctor entirely from his TARDIS and his Sonic. Really put the limitations on. Limitations are often what make the story the most interesting. Absolutely.

[00:49:08] Yeah. But we have to talk about that opening with Isaac Newton and his discovery of mavity. What was that wonderful word? Mavity. Mavity. I loved how that was a through line. I loved the way they kept going with it. I wonder if they're going to keep it up.

[00:49:25] Yeah, I hope not because I think it was funny for an episode. They didn't undo it though. Yeah, well, I did enjoy when David Tennant slips in and goes, oh, the gravity. The what? Oh, mavity. Like he knows that something's changed but Donna doesn't realize. Right. Yeah.

[00:49:45] And he also, you know, transitioning towards Shurigatawa's rendition, he notes that Isaac Newton is hot. Oh, that's new. Ah, yes, yes. I thought they were getting the Jack Harkness doctor. Sure, but was that a sexuality change or is that just I'm able to say that now?

[00:50:07] Maybe a little from column A, a little from column B. Okay, okay. Yeah, exactly. I think it's deliberately ambiguous. Fair enough. And Donna's classic line, don't worry, he has a time machine so he can blame me for all of eternity. But they're still laughing, right?

[00:50:26] I had to pause so I could laugh. Oh man, that was great. Yeah. Yeah, so did you guys, when did you figure out what was going on with that alien countdown? I didn't. Me either. He had to explicitly say it. Yeah, exactly.

[00:50:46] It was only when he specifically said it that I was like, aha, okay. I mean, again, this is one of the things that makes this episode so special was that it was totally, it was completely unpredictable.

[00:50:59] Most of the time throughout that episode, I think right up until the last couple of minutes, I was thinking what the hell is going on? No. It was super, it was seriously creepy.

[00:51:08] Yeah, it was seriously creepy and almost unpleasant as well with the, was it my arms are the wrong size? Yeah, my arms are too long. My arms are too long. It was seriously in horror territory. It was a masterpiece.

[00:51:27] Yeah, I thought, I called it a PG event horizon after watching, but then I found out that apparently the inspiration was the thing, which absolutely makes sense. Oh, okay. Yeah. And it had a midnight vibe too, right? Who's the actual threat here?

[00:51:48] Which one is the real one on that? So it was really, really good. It was really great. I just, Catherine Tate and David Tennant, I could probably watch them all day. They just go off each other. Yeah, they have that dynamic, you know, it's the chemistry between them.

[00:52:04] It's obvious because apparently also they, in reality, David Tennant and Catherine Tate are actually best buddies as well. Right. And that really comes off. That phase, yeah. It just really comes off the, yeah, you just feel the sparks coming off the pair of them.

[00:52:22] They just play off each other perfectly. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, and I loved just their conversations together. Well, it took me forever to notice. I got the countdown with like Jimbo the Slowbot.

[00:52:35] I figured that out pretty quickly because I think he even threw a countdown out as a possibility. I'm like, oh, well, that's what it is. But then when they were having those two conversations in the two different places,

[00:52:45] it took me forever to register that they were in two different rooms and these conversations were happening at the same time. Yeah, yeah. But I was so caught up in what they were saying, like the doctor's whole story about what he imagined that TARDIS was doing now

[00:52:58] with like a civilization rising and crumbling around. Oh, yes, yes. It was just such good writing. Yeah. What did you guys think about the, do you think we'll see these not things from the nothing again at the edge of the universe? I'm sure. Yeah. I'm sure.

[00:53:13] I mean, this is in a way the luxury that the showrunner has. I mean, you have 60 years of history. The Celestial Toymaker who we'll come on to when we discuss episode three had only appeared once in Classic Who in 1966 apparently.

[00:53:31] So he appeared 57 years ago and then they made a whole new story around it. But you think about you have these, there are many one-off characters or villains or baddies that have appeared in Doctor Who

[00:53:43] or that have appeared only a couple of times and then can be reused. So I think RTD has such a vast repertoire of baddies he can use. But I think these two were amazing. I'm sure somehow they'll reappear again.

[00:54:03] I think when you started, when he started the 2005 run, he really wanted to rid the show of the baggage of the past. He really wanted to say there was a time war. A lot of those things that you knew from the past,

[00:54:17] if you're coming back, they're not here anymore. They're not a threat anymore. And he really wanted to have these new monsters other than the iconic Daleks and Cybermen. And then now I think that Who is in a place where they're celebrating that history

[00:54:32] and that they don't feel like they can take the good from the classic era. And that's a great place to be now because I think that now they can finally start exploring those monsters a little more. Yeah. Yeah. And now that they're ostensibly rebooting it again,

[00:54:46] I wonder how they're going to handle that. I'm very excited to see how they strike that balance between, I think probably for the first season, it's just going to be all new stuff would be my guess. Except, well, we'll talk about the next episode.

[00:55:01] But maybe certain things they've laid Easter eggs for here. So we find out that there's a horse species that was the astronaut on this ship of this episode. And Davies, he said that he will take fan made names for this species. Oh, OK.

[00:55:29] Makes me wonder if we're going to see them more. Yeah. The no things. Do we think that that's related to the one who waits? I don't know. Yeah, because where. Which sounds very Loki, right? Right. Exactly. I was thinking too. Yeah.

[00:55:49] I mean, we were getting a tease about some sort of brand new overarching villain, because also the meep said that my boss, something. Yeah, exactly. He said, he said, he said, creature of two hearts is a rare thing. And I'm going to tell the boss. Right.

[00:56:06] So who's the boss? But what if those guys retain the two hearts from from the 14th doctor? What if the no things retain the two hearts? Yeah. What if they come back looking like them still? Yeah. Yeah. That could also be a possibility, but.

[00:56:23] Or at least they learn that body structure. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but they are like the kind of political commentary, but very effective. Creepy is like they say that the hate modeled after humanity, which. Yes. Say an age feels on point. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:43] I mean, I guess David Tennant's like, oh, there's more. And they said, well, that's what reaches us. Right. That's that's what's the loudest. And maybe that's the point is that there is more, but we need to figure out how to make the positive a little louder. Yeah.

[00:56:57] Perhaps it's a commentary on Twitter or X. Because there's some good stuff on there, but you have to get way away through all the hate. Yeah. We've we've as as a net as as the lore hounds, we've stopped using Twitter for a while because it's gotten so bad.

[00:57:14] Yeah. I deleted my account because it just got so bad. I just couldn't do it. But now in Europe we have threads and I just started using it. Oh, I haven't started threads. I've chosen Blue Sky, but it's the it's not like the features aren't

[00:57:30] all there yet, but I it's similar to Twitter and I like the community there. It's a better community for sure. Like Neil Gaiman seems to have jumped ship and be mostly on Blue Sky now. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:44] We're on Blue Sky to check the show notes if you want to follow us on Twitter. Anyway, you've got a couple more points here. Yeah. Well, so the counting salt thing now I know it is. Yeah.

[00:57:57] But I knew as soon as like that happened, that's going to come back. And I guess we'll talk about that more in the next episode since that's when it's brought up again. But I always love I love ghost stories. So that counting salt thing comes up a lot.

[00:58:10] I've mixed feelings about how it was used here, but I just wanted to point it out because it becomes important. Oh, I thought it was very clever and quite scary, but also quite abusing at the same time as the Donna clone or whatever you want to call her.

[00:58:27] No thing was they were actually counting the grains of salt. Fantastic. He was so ominous. The doctor was so ominous. You know, oh, I invoked the superstition. I shouldn't have done that. Edge of the universe. That's not great. Yeah.

[00:58:42] That's a typical who is I'm like, oh, a superstition at the edge of the universe. What does that mean? But speaking of the wrong Donna, I am still mad at the doctor for taking the wrong Donna. Like she forgave me. Definitely was a real accident. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:59:02] But then we get to we get our heart a salve at the end of the episode with the one and only scene that we were able to get with Wilf in this which is absolutely wonderful. I'll tell you something you might not know.

[00:59:15] But in the in the 1960s, when the Dalek hype was the first appearance of a Daleks apparently in the UK caused something akin to Beatlemania. So it was really huge hype around the Daleks and Doctor Who. It's what made the series.

[00:59:31] And then there were two there are actually two movies because it was so popular. Two films of Doctor Who were made with the Daleks. So they were different actors and it's not part of canon. But one of the companions was played by Bernard Cribbins.

[00:59:49] Oh, in other words, Wilf was actually played by young Bernard Cribbins. He played a policeman who got aboard the TARDIS and went off with the Doctor who was played by Peter Cushing, the famous horror actor. So, you know, but so but Wilf.

[01:00:09] Yeah, it was really so nice seeing seeing seeing Wilf. Those are last scenes, last scenes he shot. And it's just heartwarming. And that was in a way one of the things that RTD was brilliant at as a showrunner where he created this kind of ensemble list of extra

[01:00:30] characters. Wilf, obviously Donna's mother. And but also they weren't just parts to say, hey, hi. They were genuinely characters you can engage with. And obviously, Wilf was just fabulous. Yeah, Wilf always had that those perpetually wet eyes, right? He just always felt like he felt everything. Yeah.

[01:00:53] But it's nice thinking that like that was one of the last things that Bernard Cribbins ever got to do is. I mean, that's a that's a high point for you to look back and remember this magical thing that you were a part of in your life. Yeah.

[01:01:07] OK, I'm tearing up. And then there's writing and an apocalypse. And that takes us to the giggle. Yeah. The giggle where, of course, Wilf is blurred the whole time. You can see right away. You're like, OK, this was not. Yeah. Yeah. Like looking over his shoulder.

[01:01:25] And there's a clear wig like, OK, fine. Right. Right. He's just in the background. And then they're like, all right, take him somewhere. Oh, now he's now he's shooting moles. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess it's better that way, you know, just to let him live on for

[01:01:42] now and in that world. That also tells me that we're not going back to Donna's garden for a long time, which I think is good. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah, especially with the way they leave things in this episode where meme.

[01:01:58] Well, I guess we'll talk about the by generation at the end, but yeah, they've got to do that for a reason. What did you guys think of the Neil Patrick Harris as the toy maker? Now, John, you told me you're not a huge MPH fan in general.

[01:02:11] I think he's fine. I think he plays things very straight, you know, very straightforward. Really? Yeah. I mean, I watched him in How I Met Your Mother. He's funny, although that character is incredibly problematic. Sure. I watched him in back in the day. Dr. Horrible singalong blog. Everybody.

[01:02:31] I love that. Yeah, that was. Yeah, that was great. I think that's my favorite thing he's done before this. I think this is now my favorite thing he's done, but he really nailed this role. I really liked it. And I liked it. Yeah.

[01:02:46] Did you see the interview he did about this? No, he didn't interview about it. Yeah. This is going to be fun. And he he didn't know much about Doctor Who before that. I didn't hear that. Yeah, I heard as well. Yeah. He's never really. No, that's right.

[01:03:05] Because after reading the script, he said to RTD, he said, so let me get this right. The doctors, the doctors and alien. Right. So he's never watched Doctor Who prior to reading the script. Yeah. And you can see his genuine reaction on the puppet show. Right.

[01:03:20] Clara was killed by a bird. Well, that's all right. Yeah. I mean, it's fair reactions. I like how it's like he's supposed to be changing his accent to do the American accent. But that's his real accent. It's just right.

[01:03:36] Well, but it's also but they I like that because I know the original Toymaker was I mean, most of us none of us have seen all the episodes because they don't exist anymore. No. But you can find the clip the clips online of what does exist in the

[01:03:45] original Toymaker. You know, they went with the whole oriental thing that people used to do. And so this time they're like, OK, we're just going to make him someone who puts on the persona of different Earth nationalities as like a costume.

[01:03:55] So you you get in the first episode, the guy who comes into the shop is like, oh, your accent slipping. I like that. Yeah. Yeah, that was pretty. Yeah. That's a really great way to bring it back. Yeah.

[01:04:10] I mean, I think it's a really good way to bring it back. I mean, I think it's a really good way to bring it back. And obviously they just they go ahead and get right on political with everyone started thinking they're right all the time.

[01:04:17] Like, here we go. Yeah. It's like it's basically what Twitter would be in real life. So yeah, exactly. Well, yeah. Yeah. And that whole thing with the doll, the what's his name? Stucky Bill. Yes. Apparently that is actually true. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That was the first episode.

[01:04:43] That was that Stucky Bill was the first ever image broadcast on television in the UK. It was using Stucky Bill. And his and he really did kind of like catch fire a little bit because of the lights. Yeah.

[01:04:55] But the fact that having that image stuck in every television since is a bit of who logic. I'm like, don't think about it. So so did the the hungry entity have to, like, battle this Stucky Bill? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

[01:05:10] Remember that one from the I think that's early David Tennant, right? Hungry. I don't remember, actually. Really? Oh, it's it was like it took the form of like this female talk show host and it was it was a great it was actually a good villain.

[01:05:22] It was a good, good story. Try it. Basically, they had this guy selling TVs so that they could steal the film. And they were like, oh, you're going to do that? And they were like, oh, yeah, we're going to do that.

[01:05:34] And they were like, oh, yeah, we're going to do that. And they were like, oh, yeah, we're going to do that. So they were selling TVs so that they could, you know, steal the faces of people. Oh, TV. Was that the idiot box? Let's see.

[01:05:48] Let's look it up before we get at it. Doctor Who. I think it was called The Idiot Box or TV Monster. Idiot's Lantern. The Idiot's Lantern. The Idiot's Lantern. Yep, that was that was that was it. It was the tenth doctor featuring Elizabeth the second and maybe

[01:06:07] and the wire is the name of the monster. Okay. Yeah. Okay, now it's starting to ring a bell. I have to rewatch. Season 2, episode 7. Okay. Yeah, because that is what people in the, I don't know, when TV took off in the 50s,

[01:06:21] that's what, because so few people could afford a television, the common nickname for television and people watching it, they used to call it the idiot's lantern. Oh, okay. Yeah, in the US it's often called the idiot box because they say it makes you stupid. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:06:38] Yeah, but similar idea in the UK. Yeah, so in any other show you'd have the issue of, well, how do these two villains interact? In Doctor Who you're just like, fuck it, we're just going home with it. This is just, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

[01:06:52] Don't worry about it. Wave it away. Yeah. But I did find chilling the way that they worked that laugh arpeggio into it, the giggle of the title, the ha ha ha ha ha ha. And the fact that Donna worked it out as well. Yeah, yes, yes.

[01:07:09] Yes, and I love Donna's negotiation of her salary later. She doubles it and she's like, oh my God. Yes, yes. She's like, yes. Donna was brilliant in this episode, when she's fighting the dolls and we got that I lost my precious hubby poem, which was creepy as hell.

[01:07:28] And then she's like, my name is Donna and you are gonna smash this. Oh yeah. But yeah, this is where we get the payoff of that casting the salt at the edge of the universe thing.

[01:07:44] The doctor says I played a game and that let the Toy Master in, which, you know, that's just one of those things I just kind of have to squint my brain a little bit and be like, sure, why not? Yeah. Is that a game?

[01:07:55] There was no challenge there. I don't know. Yeah. And we get that, of course, that like iconic puppet show, I think years from now. I'm that's going to be the scene from all these three specials that maybe I remember the most is that puppet show.

[01:08:10] It was really good. I kind of wanted to see him go through the rest, you know? Yeah, exactly. Can we not interrupt him, David? Yeah, yeah. And this is where people are up in arms about Martha not being mentioned. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

[01:08:25] People say, yeah, why was it Martha mentioned? I guess because she turned out okay. And it logically makes sense that like these were after Donna, right? He's giving her the history from after she left. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's true too. That's also true. Oh, yeah, that's right.

[01:08:41] Because, yeah, that's right. He began, yeah, he began with... Because she was in between... Do you know who he traveled with after? Yeah. Amy Pond. Yeah. The way he said Amy Pond is such an earworm, it's great. Yeah, exactly. Well, that's all right then.

[01:08:56] Well, that's all right then. Oh, just the way he... And yeah, like you said, it feels like, especially because he slipped into his real accent and just the way his face would like contort and like the mask would slip.

[01:09:08] It did feel like that was really Neil Patrick Harris coming through. Right. But it really does put into the perspective. Do you think that this was a dig at Stephen Moffat a little bit?

[01:09:19] It was not like a mean dig, but like RTD kind of making fun of his friend for the way he killed off but didn't kill off any of his companions? It could be. Could very well be, yeah.

[01:09:33] I mean, you can say the same like Rose ended up in another universe, but she got a copy of The Doctor. Well, that's all right then. Right. Right. Sure. You could do it with all of them pretty much. But at least Martha had a normal ending. Yeah, exactly.

[01:09:47] I guess that's why she wasn't brought up because this was an episode about regret, it felt like. Whereas all four, Justice for Rory, all four Moffat companions had a death not death. Right. They like kind of died. Yeah. So I get the criticism.

[01:10:07] It's kind of like, well, are you killing them or not? Right. Was there a consequence here or not? Because Stephen Moffat's companions, you could argue other than Amy and Rory, actually got a perfectly fine life beyond The Doctor. And even Amy and Rory supposedly lived a happy life.

[01:10:28] Yeah. In 19, when did they get back to the 20s, New York? Yeah. Got into publishing. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Got into writing. Yeah. But still, yeah. On the other hand, would you like to end up back in the 1920s? This man waited 2000 years for this shit.

[01:10:50] But hey, at least you know how to play the stock market. That's true. All right. That's true. Right. My one gripe, so we'll talk about the Bi-Generation. I liked it. But my gripe is just the, for me, that game of catch.

[01:11:03] Like, okay, this is a first game ever. But I found that game of catch very anti-climatic. Yeah. It's a bit, and the thing about it is that you have this show that's consistently over

[01:11:17] years being about what a genius the doctor is, and that he uses his brain to solve problems. And yeah, it would have been nice if they'd, yeah, used a game that would really show the doctor or the doctors their intelligence and they would beat him because they're incredibly

[01:11:39] smart rather than something like catch. Right. I think they were going for that. It was, he wanted more of like a luck-based thing because he knows that he can't outsmart the toy maker. But at the same time, this isn't luck, right? This is actually skill.

[01:11:58] And the only lucky thing about it is that he had a second partner on his team. So he could go two versus one. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. But I guess they blew all their budget on the Spice Girls. That's probably what happened. Spice up your life. Okay.

[01:12:14] So is everyone happy with it by generation or like, John, do you have? I loved it. Yeah. John, do you have cripples? I loved it. I loved it. I liked it too. Okay. So when I first watched it, I was very like, I don't like that.

[01:12:28] But then, first of all, Shudi's doctor charmed me very quickly. Yeah. Second, the way that somebody phrased it online, which I really liked was, David Tennant's doctor is the closure to the previous show, is the happily ever after for the doctor we've seen since 2005.

[01:12:47] Or even if you want to go back further to 1963. And then Shudi's doctor is the new adventure for Disney. And I'm fine with that. If we have like, okay, we finally have the happily ever after for the doctor that he's

[01:13:01] been needing, and we're closing out the old series and we're starting fresh. That's fine with me. I think that's good. And we also hear from interviews that Davis apparently said that any doctor could have bi-generated at any point.

[01:13:14] So it seems like he's leaving things open, as open as he possibly can. He's like, you know what? I want all of my toys in my toy box that I can play with when and where I want. That made me really nervous.

[01:13:29] Because that sounds very, very much like, we're going to have a secret invasion show, right? Like there's just going to be too many shows. Yeah, I hope that they've especially considering that this is at, yeah, especially considering

[01:13:42] this is at Disney now and Disney is just learning their lesson from all the Marvel overextension. Yeah. I think they must. And I don't know that they'll want to invest as much into this, at least until it proves itself.

[01:13:57] And I hope they, I hope they stay on the right track. I hope they manage to remember lessons learned, but humans are not good at that. So we'll see. Yeah. But for me, what I loved about the bi-generation was simply that I've seen multiple regenerations

[01:14:13] since the old Who. And this is the first time, well, no, it's not the first time, after Jodie Whittaker's was actually the first regeneration where they did something completely different, i.e. regenerate into the same face. So that was completely new and also completely shocking.

[01:14:30] And thankfully, I haven't read any spoilers, so I didn't know that was coming. I don't know if you guys knew it was coming with her regenerating into Baby Tenet. Only because I came back for the Day of Attendance specials, right?

[01:14:42] Like I just knew he was coming back already. Oh, okay. Yeah. I made a bet with you because I was dumb and I didn't know. Yeah, I know. But so yes, and that was in itself quite amazing. So maybe something new there.

[01:14:59] And I like the fact that, yeah, you know, we have this mythical race, the Time Lords. And if they can travel through time, if they can invent time machines that can blend in with their surroundings, which they're supposed to do, and the Doxus is broken, then yeah,

[01:15:17] why wouldn't a bi-generation be possible? For me, it was also a complete surprise when he bi-generated. So for me, I think, yeah, you know, it's the same as with comics and comic characters.

[01:15:30] When Superman began, all of the things that are part of his character, such as x-ray vision, the super cold breath and various other powers, they were all added later on. You know? So things evolved with time and they've just evolved Doctor Who a bit more now with

[01:15:49] the bi-generation. Yeah. I'm all for it. And they doubled the TARDIS, so they both get the cool new TARDIS. But Shooties has a jukebox in it, which I love. Oh yeah, that's something we didn't discuss from the first one, from the Starbeast. The new TARDIS, the new TARDIS.

[01:16:08] What do you think of the new TARDIS? I mean, it's gorgeous. I was worried that they, well, I mean, not worried per se, but I thought at first that they were just going to use it for these three specials.

[01:16:17] And then I was like, oh, well, that's also what the new one looks like. I'm like, well, yeah, that looks like an expensive set. So. Yeah. Yeah. The thing that I would say about the bi-generation is I could actually think of two logical reasons

[01:16:30] why this Doctor would have it. One was you're dealing with the Toymaker and you were killed by his beam and he's in the game of play. And maybe you needed, you wanted the advantage in, you know, I'm the Doctor, I want the

[01:16:44] advantage of having a second set of hands. Maybe my mind, my regeneration sort of pours into that and that's how we get the bi-generation. But didn't the Toymaker also say something like that he wanted to make doubles of the

[01:16:59] Doctor so that he could keep killing them over and over or something like that? I think he said like a new face, right? I just, I don't know. Well, anyway, my other point was, and I haven't watched the Timeless Child stuff yet, so tell

[01:17:11] me if I'm wrong about something, but it sounds like the Doctor may have abilities beyond the basic Time Lord. Yes. Well, yeah. Maybe that's a good reason for this to only happen to him.

[01:17:22] Well, it's also like the Time Lords, their abilities are based on the Doctor's, it seems. Right. But if you're copying the Timeless Child's abilities, perhaps the Timeless Child retains some abilities for itself. Yes, exactly.

[01:17:35] That perhaps there's more about the Timeless Child than has been shown before because he's only just discovered that he's the Timeless Child. So yeah, yeah. Russell T. Davies said that he liked that twist. So it seems like he's going to, yeah, and he brought it up here.

[01:17:53] So it seems like he's going to keep it. He's going to play with it. Yeah. So it seems, yeah, they left like a surprising number of lingering things to carry into the next series for me. So we have the happy ending with David Tennant's Doctor 14.

[01:18:09] He gets to chill with the family and apparently his rest and recuperation with Donna allows. So when they bi-generated, Shudi Ghat was actually from a previous, like in the future, but then somehow came out at the same time.

[01:18:27] So because he's actually the future version of David Tennant's Doctor, however that works. Does that mean that David Tennant's Doctor, that the 14th Doctor will eventually have a traditional regeneration into the 15th Doctor?

[01:18:41] That's what it seems to imply because he said to Tennant, he said, I can be more relaxed and laid back now and carefree because you rested. So I am, yeah, have that. So that's, I don't know, that's what I'm taking it to mean. Yeah.

[01:18:59] Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey, whatever. That would be fine with me. I think that's pretty cool to have sort of an already established version of the Doctor come back and help them. Yeah, no, I mean, I'm fine with it.

[01:19:12] And I like they gave, you know, Donna has a new career at UNIT, which is another reason why I wonder about this UNIT spin-off. Yeah, the UNIT spin-off. I think that with both her and Mel, I think that's...

[01:19:23] Notice they gave her five weeks of holiday so they can easily explain her being away. Yeah, well, that's standard in Europe. So fair enough. Fair enough. But the Toy Master, when he's vanquished, he says, my legions are coming.

[01:19:39] And we also see there's a gold tooth that he says the Master was in and a hand with red nail polish picks it up. So these are two lingering threads. The boss of the MEEP, the legions of the Toy Master who also apparently had some sort of

[01:19:54] boss and yeah, both the Master and or this hand. Do you think the hand could be a new Missy? It could be, yeah. You mean it could be a future iteration of the Master? Yeah, because...

[01:20:07] Or past, we don't even know because I always assume that Sasha Darwin's is a past iteration before Missy. Oh, yeah, because they never showed the Sasha Darwin's Master where he regenerated from. So that's true. He could have been from the past or from the future.

[01:20:27] Yeah, and then I guess in Missy's death scene, you kind of see her fall unconscious, but she doesn't necessarily fully die, right? No, there's no way. Oh, John Simms was bluffing. So it's fine.

[01:20:41] But I like to think that the next version of the Master, Missy, whatever will be more like Missy. We'll have, you know, we'll carry the lessons that Missy learned. Whereas the Sasha Darwin iteration was just like a fun, you know, let's sing Rasputin. Fair enough.

[01:21:00] I literally just got to the episode where Sasha's doctor is introduced. And unfortunately, because I already know who plays the next Doctor, I was just like, no, no, no, I already knew that that was the Master. I get there and I'm like, oh, okay, that's the Master.

[01:21:16] Oh, it's actually the Master. Okay, fine. Yeah, yeah. That was a brilliant episode, by the way. Well, I'm looking forward to finishing it. I'm like halfway through. Yeah, it's a two-parter. Yeah, it's a two-parter. It's very good.

[01:21:31] Yeah, I will say I am less of a Chibnall hater than the general public, I think, based on the way I've seen. Yeah, same here. There's just a lot of griping about the Chibnall era. I thought there were more good stories than bad.

[01:21:48] I struggled with The Flux, but you liked it, Simon, didn't you? I really loved it. I thought The Flux was fantastic. I struggled. It took me months to watch those episodes. And The Widow. Because I thought it was amazing. No, but that's good. I'm glad.

[01:22:01] But then when I got to the Dalek time loop, was it the time of the Daleks or whatever, that holiday special, New Year's special right after that, that was like, oh, we are back. And I love that.

[01:22:16] And I was like, oh, I wish every episode with Jodi Whittaker had been like this one, because then it's, you know, her time was basically done by then. But I loved the first season.

[01:22:25] I loved that episode, John, you and I were just talking about, and Simon, I know you liked it too, the one with the partition in India and Pakistan. That was really good. Yes, that was excellent. Oh, yes. Yeah. It was The Devils and something. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:22:44] I did really like that one. Yeah, same here. Yeah, look, I haven't seen the rest of it yet, so I can't make a judgment on that. But I'm looking forward to watching the rest of it. I'm not dreading it. And I'm glad about that.

[01:22:57] But yeah, I think that overall, these specials were absolutely fantastic. Can we talk about the Spice Girls scene before we move on? Absolutely. I mean, I love just Neil Patrick Harris, just, you know, bravo. Yeah. Absolutely fantastic.

[01:23:15] And did you see that the Spice Girls on TikTok reposted and said, we loved seeing this? Oh, okay. I'm fabulous. I bet. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah. It's nice to hear. And in the American Beauty reference with him doing this rose angel on the ground.

[01:23:31] Oh, is that what that was? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I didn't get the reference, but yes. Well, that's what I prefer. That'd be safe. Yeah. That'd be safe. But also, you know, it was kind of what was brilliant about it. On one hand, it's kind of funny.

[01:23:45] There's Neil Patrick Harris dancing and dancing to Spice Girls. On the other hand, you know, a soldier comes to shoot him and the soldier is turned into a bunch of balloons. And the way he threw Mel, you know, like he dances around and she falls over.

[01:24:04] And the balloon was screaming, right? Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was brilliantly done. It's that brilliant mix of complete campness, but also horror. Yeah. Yeah, there was it was a quietly horrific episode. Like a lot of people died in disturbing ways. And there was that tonal dissonance.

[01:24:21] You have David Tennant really brilliantly standing there with a look of horror on his face. And you have Kate asking what happened to them. They're dead. I'm sorry. Just really, really just he gives up. He's like, I can't do anything about this.

[01:24:38] The doctor usually running to the rescue. He's like, I don't have powers like this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's I do wish that Neil Patrick Harris had had more episodes, you know, like

[01:24:52] this is a villain who I would have liked to have seen his threat stretched out longer. Because it could have been. I think he'll be back. Yeah. He's in a box in the unit headquarters. Yeah. I think.

[01:25:09] Yeah, I think at some point, I think he'll escape or he mentioned his my legions are coming. Right. So you don't know what that means. He mentioned that my legions are coming. So you know, maybe something comes and releases him. I'm sure he'll be back.

[01:25:22] He's like in the DC comics, they have Omega, you know, they have these all powerful being and, you know, I think it's a great character that has in many ways offers more than the master, you know, you have this almost omnipotent eternal with incredible power. Right.

[01:25:45] I think it will be super exciting to see him up against the coochie. Yeah, the the master always feels like, OK, he's on the level of the doctor. And that's what makes him scary because we know the doctor is so powerful. Yes.

[01:25:59] But then this is something otherworldly and more of the other universally, right? Like this is this is a level above what the doctor usually deals with. Yeah, yeah, exactly. This is someone who's completely omnipotent and has effectively magical powers. Right.

[01:26:14] So so I really I really hope I really hope we see him again because I think, yeah, as you say, I think it's almost he didn't get enough screen time. He was he was so good. Yeah, exactly. I could watch it all day.

[01:26:27] So I think it'd be great if they bring him back. Yeah, he's like this, the universe version of the Scarlet Witch, you know, with the chaos magic he can manipulate reality. Yeah. Well, very cool. You have some final thoughts outlined, Alicia?

[01:26:45] Well, I was just thinking about, you know, so in the Day of the Doctor special, they famously call the 10th doctor, the previous David Tennant incarnation, the man who regrets and the 11th doctor, Matt Smith, the man who forgets.

[01:27:00] And I've heard the Capaldi doctor, the 12th called the man who accepts and the 13th called Jodie Whittaker, the woman reborn. So I was wondering, like, does that make the 14th? Would that be like the man who questions? And then the 15th is the doctor who comforts?

[01:27:20] What do you think? Because he's saying, you know, you can't save anyone, everyone. And that hug that he gives is felt all around the world. The 14th is the man who goes to therapy. And the 15th is the therapist. There you go.

[01:27:37] Yeah, surely the best therapist would be a future version of yourself. Yeah. A licensed mental health counselor, right? Yeah. Oh, I can tell my younger self so much stuff. Exactly. Same here. Same here.

[01:27:52] That would be wonderful if you could speak, if you could talk to your younger self. Yeah. Well, you guys looking forward to the Christmas special? I guess the answer is probably obvious. Yeah. I am. Have you seen the track? Have you seen the trailer? Yeah. The Goblin song.

[01:28:10] Have you seen that? Yeah. The budget really looks another step up even. Yeah. I think RTD came out and said that they didn't have Disney money for the 60th anniversary special. Oh, really? What? But it looks like they were using, I mean, they clearly used Disney assets.

[01:28:26] Like they literally used Avengers Tower. Yeah. Yeah. I guess maybe there was some like intermediary, but I think the budget really goes up with the new season. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. It's like this is their fresh start. That's where they're investing. Yeah.

[01:28:42] Well, this was a blast, everyone. I'm glad that we were able to come together and talk about these specials. What do you say we take a quick break, and then we come back and we take some listener feedback? Yeah, sure. And we're back.

[01:29:10] All right, guys, let's do some listener feedback. We didn't get any emails or contact form entries because that's usually how this goes on these one-offs, but I did scrape from the Discord because there was a lot of really good conversation on there.

[01:29:24] So I just pulled about five messages. The first one's the longest. I started negative and I went positive. So don't be scared if it's immediately negative. As a reminder, you can contact us at lorehounds at the lorehounds.com or you could head to the lorehounds.com.

[01:29:40] Go to the contact page, send us a voicemail or just a contact form entry. DJ Miwa on the Giggle says, this ep was just like the first special. Excellent right up until the second it was done. NPH was absolutely incredible.

[01:29:55] I didn't even know he had this gear in him. His performance was utterly magnetic and frankly terrifying. He and Tenant definitely sold the history between the Doctor and the Toymaker, even though I didn't know anything about that story.

[01:30:07] However, the Bi-Generation, one of RTD's worst ass pulls of which there are a ton. So basically now thanks to him, this is the third variant of the Doctor running around. Prime Gatwa, Prime Doctor Gatwa, then a variant of the Tenant Doctor living with Rose in a

[01:30:26] parallel universe and now the Bi-Generated Doctor complete with his own TARDIS. Well, I just have to interject very quickly that there could be every iteration of the Doctor could be running around at the same time anywhere because he's a time trapper.

[01:30:42] So I just want to point that out. Yeah, exactly. Let's also pour one out again for Martha who is the only 10th Doctor companion without a version of David Tenant with her. Yeah, she can do better. The other two both got one to take home.

[01:30:57] Yeah, but she should be she should have her Torch family with her. You know, she should have her John Barry. What? You want to leave her with Nikki after all Noel Clark's issues? Oh, yes. Well, OK.

[01:31:15] Yeah, I think if he's ever mentioned again, he'll be either killed off or exiled somewhere. Yeah, I think I don't like coming back. I think he won't be mentioned again. Yeah, yeah. It's oh, that guy over that guy who used to hang out with Rose.

[01:31:31] That's like the extent. Yeah. DJ Miwa continues, which leads me to ask why? Why aren't regenerations just straightforward with RTD? Why the Baden switches and the ass pulls? This was a fantastic episode and an actual regeneration would have been a great emotional capper.

[01:31:49] Tenet regenerating saying something like now I can go would have been the perfect compliment to his I don't want to go. Well, we kind of got that with Alanzi. I think that was a fair you know, it means let's go right? Yeah, exactly.

[01:32:02] I thought that that was actually a really good line. I was hoping that he would actually regenerate traditionally right after that. I thought that would have worked. Anyway, finishes the ass pull in the first special was bad enough.

[01:32:15] Apparently Donna could have just given up the time Lord powers at any time. This one is even worse. And despite my optimism after last episode and 90% of this one, I now go right back to worrying about upcoming doctor stories. Sorry for being a downer.

[01:32:30] I'm sure there are folks who liked it. But Donna only it was because she gave birth to a child. So that's not like you can give it away at any time. You know, that's you have to get pregnant and carry a child for nine months and then

[01:32:42] raise this child like that's you know, it's not just throw away whatever. Yeah, and if I could add to that, I don't think that she could immediately just like wake up with the 10 seconds she has left and give it away right away even if she didn't have it.

[01:32:58] We can just where she can like think about it for a minute, figure out where the energy is in her and let go of it. I think that she really needed time. And that was the issue is that because in the first special when the doctor is saying

[01:33:12] you have 30 seconds left, right or 50 seconds. I don't think that was enough time for her to let that go. Right. And it was only because she was able to survive through splitting the energy with her daughter that she could get rid of it.

[01:33:26] And I think that that made sense to me. I didn't have a problem with that. Yeah. No, yeah. I mean like the words they were using weren't necessarily making sense to me but I was just like whatever. Whoever. They were Elsa, let it go. Let it go.

[01:33:47] Anyway, as far as this regeneration nonsense, is this really – is he known for doing ass pole regenerations as DJ Miuha says? Because I don't think so. Eccleston to Tennant was pretty straightforward. So was Tennant to Smith.

[01:34:08] Well, I don't know what he necessarily means about the regenerations but just more about how – like Doctor Who in general is inherently like a deus ex machina kind of storytelling style. It doesn't really – something crazy is going to happen and save the thing and it's not

[01:34:25] about – I just turn off my brain from picking holes in for instance the science or whatever of it and it just doesn't – is the emotional resonance there because that's the kind of storytelling it is. This is a fantasy show, right? This is not the Expanse. No, right.

[01:34:42] It's just never going to be and that's fine. They're different shows. So yeah, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree with DJ Miuha. But thank you for your thoughts. It's good to get that perspective. Absolutely.

[01:34:56] Love hearing from you DJ Miuha and please write in again if you decide to continue watching because I'm not sure if you are. Maybe the Christmas special will win you over. Yeah. Greg Saw also says, I loved the giggles but I have some issues. Okay.

[01:35:12] So that's halfway there. The five minutes of playing catch up was kind of anticlimactic – playing catch was kind of anticlimactic. Agreed. Yeah, agreed. Tenant still being around really got in the way of Gottwa Shining but I'm excited to see more in the Christmas special.

[01:35:27] Gottwa getting away and being fine with all the trauma while someone else does the work. How do I get that in real life? Fair. I'm really glad we got this 14 plus Donna mini season. Something about RTD's approach just hits me way better than Moffat or Chibnall did.

[01:35:45] I would generally agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, generally agree with that. Although like I said, I really liked Moffat. I think he has his issues but I like him. With him getting in the way of Gottwa, I heard you disagree Alicia. I am with you.

[01:36:02] I think that Gottwa had his own vibe and it got me really excited to see him actually. And we got to see more of the new doctor than we normally do in a regeneration episode. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Usually they get one line. In fact, sometimes it just ends.

[01:36:20] They've regenerated and that's it. You don't see anything. Whereas what you immediately get – My kidneys, I don't like the color. Yeah. Yeah. But what you immediately get is this incredible charisma that the new doctor has. It's a very positive and enormous energy. I think it's great.

[01:36:37] He reminds me of Matt Smith, oddly enough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's maybe why I'm also extra excited. I'm like, yes, let's bring back that – I like this boyish enthusiasm. He's got the young Dr. Riz as the kids say. Yeah, there we go.

[01:36:53] Sadie, who has never watched Doctor Who before, writes in and says, the third special is very confusing to me and the least interesting by far to me as a non-watcher. I guess I can understand that because that one was basically – I mean,

[01:37:11] the Neil Patrick Harris thing is – that's new for most people but all the Dr. Donna stuff and the regeneration, that's going to be – it's going to throw new people off. I can understand that. And the mention of the previous assistants and how it ended.

[01:37:29] If you don't know any of that, then yeah, it's not really going to appeal. I was going to say, I felt like these episodes were the fan service to get out of the way to open up the door for new, for starting with the Christmas special.

[01:37:43] Yeah, I think that they are really going into this two-pronged approach going into the Disney era, which is use this David Tennant run, little run, as a please come back, an invitation to old fans. And then with the Christmas special onward, they're really – they're renumbering at one.

[01:38:04] They're doing this young doctor who will hopefully bring people in and the companion's like 19, right? So they're doing like a young companion on like Graham from the last generation. And they really – I love Graham. Justice for Graham.

[01:38:17] Justice for Graham. But he – I think that RTD is basically saying like it's safe to come in now whether you've been gone for a while or you're coming in new. Right, exactly. Yeah. And with that two-tiered approach, these specials were not meant for new viewers. No.

[01:38:34] They were all right for new viewers but they were not meant for them for sure. I think Christmas will hopefully be a really good introduction. Yeah. That's the feeling I get. Layzchips Inc. writes in, says,

[01:38:48] Great episode. I doubt David Tennant will be back on a regular basis but I'm excited for the possibility of more Tennant plus Tate. As long as they don't make a spin-off about them, Shady Got Wild's doctor should have a great chance to shine.

[01:39:02] Yeah. I agree with that. It wouldn't surprise me if perhaps in a future Christmas special that somehow they cross paths, the doctors cross paths. Yes. So I can imagine there's a one-off episode and maybe – and perhaps you get to the actual real regeneration into Kuti's doctor. Right.

[01:39:30] Maybe that will happen in the future. That would be cool. Yeah. I hope they don't make a spin-off series. I agree. I agree. I was actually ready to let go of David Tennant's doctor by the end of this.

[01:39:41] I said, OK, get out of the way for the new guy. There was this great TikTok somebody made where they took the scene of the master rolling in the doctor on a wheelchair when he made him old. Oh, yes.

[01:39:56] It's David Tennant at 90 being asked to come back for the 100th anniversary. I mean, yes. I don't mind if they bring him back every now and then for these one-off sort of things. I don't know if I need an entire spin-off. I wouldn't hate it as long

[01:40:18] as they wait a while. I agree. They need to give the new era a chance to take root before they start piling on the fan service for the old era. Yeah. Or perhaps the new unit spin-off series will occasionally have a doctor appearing – David

[01:40:38] Tennant's doctor appearing as a scientific advisor, as the third doctor was. Yeah. It reminds me there's this comic run for Captain America where he gets turned into an old man and then gives Falcon the mantle, and he's just like a consultant for the Avengers.

[01:40:54] And maybe that's what David Tennant's doctor does. They give him a call every now and then. He comes in, he does a voiceover over the phone, and that's it. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Exactly. We should check that out. Yeah.

[01:41:04] Yeah. No, I mean, especially he's living with Donna. Donna's hired by unit. Yeah, I'm thinking he would slot in nicely as an occasional guest star in the unit series. Yeah. All right. Well, one last piece of feedback. Pariah Dice says,

[01:41:22] I love the arc, but I've always been a fan of the Tennant doctor. That said, if the point of this mini-arc was to reengage the Who fans and get them hyped for Shooty Who, it fully worked for me. Yeah.

[01:41:34] Which I think is a good note to end on. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Bring on the Christmas special. And the – Bring it on for sure. The attic gnomes or whatever. Yeah. Well, this was a fun time talking with both of you. Are there any closing thoughts about Who

[01:41:53] before we talk about where to find you? My only closing thought would be I'm just looking forward to what will be the new era, and let's hope it goes from strength to strength. Very cool.

[01:42:10] I just wanted to point out that a lot of people have been discussing online that when the Bi-Generation happened and the doctors split their clothes, that a lot of people like to remember that David Tennant ended up without underwear. So you can imagine Commander

[01:42:24] Doctor for the rest of your time. But no, I can't wait for the Shooty doctor. Just the energy that he's already brought to it. And I just find him such a charismatic actor already.

[01:42:39] Yeah. I'm really excited for Christmas. And I don't know if we'll be back for Christmas. We'll see because scheduling gets a little tricky. But I think, Alicia, perhaps you and I will talk about some future coverage of Doctor Who on this feed. Sounds good.

[01:42:55] Simon, are you working on any projects that people can check out? No, not really. Very happy to be here. I have a blog in Amsterdam, but don't worry. I'm good. I'm good. So actually, that's how Simon and I first originally know each other is we were content

[01:43:15] creators about Amsterdam. Oh, cool. Yeah. He was telling me that you knew each other through work, but I wasn't sure what kind of work exactly. Yeah. And we also did a radio. He used to appear on a radio show a lot as well. So, pretty bad.

[01:43:32] Right. Very cool. Alicia, do you want to tell everyone what you're doing on the Woolshift Dust feed? Yes, sure. So we are wrapping up the Beacon 23 coverage. So the last two episodes actually

[01:43:47] are going to drop on the 17th. So we're going to be recording it and I'm going to be getting out that final episode as the holidays allow. And also there will be holiday specials around

[01:44:01] the It's a Wonderful Life to the new movie It's a Wonderful Knife, multiverse of movies. And then on the book club, Abby and I have recorded our shift breakdown. So I'm editing that to get out and then obviously we'll be continuing with Dust and the Silo Stories

[01:44:20] and the rewatch. Cool. Really looking forward to it. Over on Properly Howard, you can find their full season of remakes that they covered. Howard the Duck, White Man Can't Jump, Robocop, all

[01:44:34] the fun stuff on the Severance feed, which is also in the show notes. And you can find Woolshift Dust in the show notes as well. You will find their coverage of season one,

[01:44:42] which I think they're almost done with. And then we will be joining them for season two. So make sure you go subscribe to that. As far as the Lorehounds, this is coming out

[01:44:52] shortly after we record it. So other things coming out in December just to tie off the year. We don't have anything weekly coverage right now just because of the way that the scheduling worked out. But we have a podcast on Skyrim, a podcast on Hogfather by Terry

[01:45:07] Pratchett, which is kind of a fun Christmas book that is very British. If you like Doctor Who, you'll probably like that. And we have our Second Breakfast top 10 rankings, which I know Alicia, you and I are going to record your rankings right after this. Very exciting for that.

[01:45:25] And we have Rebel Moon breakdown coming up when that comes out on Netflix. Right. You guys are doing a lot of stuff lately that I don't even go on. So plenty of stuff coming on the feed. You are always welcome.

[01:45:39] Well, thank you. Thank you. Rebel Moon makes me very nervous because of who's involved. But maybe I'll come on the next one. But now with a negative, there's some negative backlash and I'm prepared to like it now just to be contrary.

[01:45:54] Oh, fair enough. Fair enough. Really quickly, I just want to thank our Patreon Loremasters. They are Samartian, Cyrus, Mark H., Michael G., Michelle E., David W., Brian P., Nick W., S.C., Peter O.H., Bettina W., Adam S., Nancy M., Lavinia T., Doof71, Brian8063, Frederick H.,

[01:46:12] Sarah L., Gareth C., Eric F., Matthew M., Sarah M., DJ Mewa, Andra B., Kwongyu, Laura G., DeadEyeJediBob, Nathan T., Alex V., Aaron T., Subzero, Aaron K., and Adrian. Thank you all so much. And thank you to all our patrons for helping support the show and helping

[01:46:30] us do fun things like the Doctor Who anniversary helps us justify taking time to talk about all this nerdy stuff. So thank you again. You can always go to Patreon.com slash the Lorehounds

[01:46:42] if you want to get ad free content and bonus episodes for as little as three bucks a month. Until next time, pleasure speaking with Alicia and Simon. Bye. Yeah, thank you. Bye. The Lorehounds Podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds. You can send questions and

[01:47:01] feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at Patreon.com slash the Lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening.

[01:47:23] Okay, David, this is where we're supposed to choose a side, green or black. John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life. So we're not fighting? I thought this is where HBO wanted us to pick sides and fight and stuff.

[01:47:42] Don't worry. I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod, but we seem to agree on one thing. We both really like this show. The politics, the drama, the lore. It was made for the Lorehounds. And since we just finished recapping season one,

[01:47:56] we couldn't be more ready to defend our black queen in the Dance of the Dragons. And with the season pass option in Supercast, listeners can get early ad-free access to each weekly scene by scene deep dive plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections.

[01:48:11] See you in the Lorehounds podcast feed each week for our dragon fire hot, but probably positive, takes. The Lorehounds House of the Dragon coverage is also safe for team green consumption. Side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore, a heartened conflict with itself,

[01:48:24] and an inescapable urge to read the book Fire and Blood by George R.R. Martin. Dragon seeds may experience burning.