Dune: Prophecy - S01E06 - The High-Handed Enemy

[00:00:17] Hello, I'm David.

[00:00:18] And I'm Alicia.

[00:00:20] And welcome to the Lorehounds coverage of Dune Prophecy on HBO Max.

[00:00:26] We're here to break down the season one finale episode, episode six, The High-Handed Enemy, part one of our two-part finale coverage. Watch out for our feedback episode where we'll go in a little deeper next week.

[00:00:38] Stick around until the end of the podcast to find out what else we've got going on our network this holiday season, plus how to be part of the finale feedback episode.

[00:00:51] Alicia, both you and I are traveling for the holidays.

[00:00:54] I'm out in the Pacific Northwest at my mom's condo right now.

[00:00:59] You, I think, are on the East Coast somewhere.

[00:01:01] We've all shifted time zones.

[00:01:02] Yeah, I'm in Philly, yeah.

[00:01:03] Yeah.

[00:01:04] How was your travel? Everything go okay?

[00:01:06] Oh, it's so crowded.

[00:01:08] It's been so cold, but it's lovely.

[00:01:10] Yeah.

[00:01:10] It just snowed this morning, so.

[00:01:12] Oh, nice.

[00:01:12] We got rain, you know, Pacific Northwest.

[00:01:15] No.

[00:01:15] So, it's on track for that.

[00:01:17] Anyway, we're both out of our normal recording environment.

[00:01:21] So, you know, dear listener, if you hear the differences, yeah, we're making do with what we got.

[00:01:26] Yeah.

[00:01:27] Um, and I think for this episode, because we're traveling and we've got holiday plans and all that kind of stuff, we decided that we were going to break up our coverage a little bit just so that we weren't, uh, our, our families weren't like, what are you doing up there?

[00:01:40] We're getting down here for dinner.

[00:01:42] We would do this quick sort of, uh, quasi hot take instant reaction.

[00:01:48] And then after the holidays, we'll come back, we'll do a little bit deeper dive.

[00:01:52] We'll get some feedback.

[00:01:53] Uh, we'll mix it in with the feedback as well.

[00:01:56] So, um, that way we have a little bit more time to reflect and take in the community comments.

[00:02:01] And then after that, we're going to do another crossover podcast with the Dune minute guys and talk like really get really weird into the lore and the history and dive deep, you know, for, for all of those folks who are into that kind of stuff.

[00:02:16] Uh, we still have the show guide and Nancy is still helping coordinating the feedback.

[00:02:21] Nancy, thank you so much.

[00:02:23] You are a hero of the Imperium.

[00:02:25] So we really appreciate it.

[00:02:27] She's like the third member of our, our podcast.

[00:02:30] So, uh, and it seems like we have some news, uh, Alicia on a future season.

[00:02:37] Yeah.

[00:02:38] It seems like season two has been green lit.

[00:02:41] Um, how are we feeling about this?

[00:02:43] I was on blue sky, uh, talking with some of the siege posters out there.

[00:02:49] And, uh, I was wondering, would we have approached this show a little differently?

[00:02:58] If we had known earlier that there was going to be a season two, because I found myself adjusting and giving them the show a little bit more room and a little bit, you know, I was really skeptical.

[00:03:10] There's like, wow, there's a lot of story threads here.

[00:03:12] There's a lot of density going on.

[00:03:14] How are they going to wrap this up in six episodes?

[00:03:18] And if I had known, go ahead.

[00:03:21] I was to say, that's probably why they said that before the finale.

[00:03:24] Um, and the finale is by far the highest rated episode, maybe because of that.

[00:03:29] Uh, but for me, it doesn't fix the problems that I have with it at all is the problems I have with are in the writing.

[00:03:35] It's just, yeah, fundamentally a mess.

[00:03:38] Sorry.

[00:03:40] And it's an interesting dilemma for us because we're so close to the source materials and then we know what's what they're giving us on screen.

[00:03:48] There's a, there's a difference there.

[00:03:49] And how do you see the forest?

[00:03:50] That's also not my problem for the record.

[00:03:52] That's also not my problem.

[00:03:53] It's just basic writing.

[00:03:55] Right.

[00:03:56] Yeah.

[00:03:56] But I will talk about this and we're, we're putting on smiles and keeping it positive because there's stuff we liked too, obviously.

[00:04:03] So, um, I think with a season two news though, that's, I can't help but think that that's good for the viewership.

[00:04:13] Um, what was it?

[00:04:15] Was it dark?

[00:04:17] No, not dark.

[00:04:17] It was the showrunners of dark and they had the, Oh, it was that like Titanic-esque.

[00:04:21] Um, oh, 1899.

[00:04:24] Yeah.

[00:04:24] There was a whole, yeah, there's a whole extra thing that happened there.

[00:04:28] Right.

[00:04:28] But even so, just like from a casual standpoint, like canceling the show before it even is done, you're like, well, why am I going to invest the time in watching this?

[00:04:38] So I think it wasn't smart that they green lit before the season finale came out.

[00:04:44] So, because then it's like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, okay.

[00:04:47] Well, you know, COVID writer strike all, I mean, this show has had some troubled production.

[00:04:52] Right.

[00:04:53] And now I'm like, okay, like I'm not going to be as, uh, at least on the plot threads and the different mechanics.

[00:05:00] I'm like, Oh, okay.

[00:05:01] Well, you know, they'll, they'll be able to wrap this up in future.

[00:05:04] And sometimes it takes a show two or three seasons to find its footing, right?

[00:05:08] The actors, the writers.

[00:05:10] It's, it's the writers.

[00:05:11] I'm sorry.

[00:05:12] It's all the writers in the show.

[00:05:14] Yeah.

[00:05:15] Yeah.

[00:05:15] Yeah.

[00:05:15] But the actors are great.

[00:05:16] Yeah.

[00:05:17] And the production has been great.

[00:05:18] So, but yeah, we know that they, this is a troubled product, you know, had a, had a tough.

[00:05:23] Yeah.

[00:05:24] So, so let's, you know, I'm hopeful.

[00:05:27] That's, I guess what I'm saying is I'm, I'm hopeful for the future.

[00:05:31] Yeah.

[00:05:31] I mean, I, I do hope they did say, you know, the thing that we talked about before where like they're in the writers room and they have the books.

[00:05:38] But again, my problem is not, is not, um, about the books it's about.

[00:05:45] So for example, this show runner as, uh, last known for Alison Shepker.

[00:05:53] She is known for altered carbon season two, which is when I stopped watching after the first episode, Westworld season four, which is also, I don't know.

[00:06:04] And when I see her interviews about the stuff, I don't feel like she gets it.

[00:06:08] Like, I don't know, something rubbed me the wrong way.

[00:06:09] Maybe I was just being petty when she's like, she's like, yeah, and Vali is voicing people.

[00:06:13] I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:06:14] We don't use that.

[00:06:15] That's not how we verb.

[00:06:16] I have a verb.

[00:06:18] Yeah.

[00:06:19] Using the way.

[00:06:20] All right.

[00:06:20] Exactly.

[00:06:21] Okay.

[00:06:22] So, well, yeah.

[00:06:23] And I feel like for me, at least I'm a little bit in a twilight zone of the book, you know, the, the source books, you know, in the, uh, the original Herbert books versus the, what they're trying to put on screen.

[00:06:36] And so, yeah, giving it some, some latitude and being a little bit hopeful because yeah, visually the show is great acting wise, you know, it's, it's, it's lovely.

[00:06:44] So, um, uh, and I seem to, you know, seem to be, people seem to be enjoying it.

[00:06:49] I mean, there seems to be quite a lot of chatter on our discord and I haven't been able to read cause we've been traveling and doing a lot of family stuff.

[00:06:56] And so I haven't been able to catch up with everything, but it seemed like there's some chunky posts.

[00:07:00] People had thoughts and opinions.

[00:07:01] And so that's, that's always good, right?

[00:07:03] That's always good that there's a reaction.

[00:07:05] Yeah.

[00:07:06] I did read them and they're, they're online in line for the most part with, with what we are both feeling.

[00:07:12] Um, but there's, but you know, I think a lot of people are saying, and I have to agree with them at the end of the day, uh, Dune is Dune, you know, it's like, uh, I'll eat bad pizza because I love pizza.

[00:07:26] And when we complain about stuff, it's cause we care about stuff, right?

[00:07:28] So there's that, you know, we have to, we're not being, if we're critical or negative, it's not for the sake of being critical or negative.

[00:07:35] It's for the sake of the fact that we care about the material and we want to see a success.

[00:07:39] So yeah.

[00:07:39] Yeah.

[00:07:40] And also, yeah, then people, people can't call me a shell.

[00:07:43] I have to take down one show.

[00:07:44] I was just kidding.

[00:07:46] Well, anyway, the internet's going to internet.

[00:07:48] So what did you think about the finale itself?

[00:07:52] Uh, well, first of all, let's point out that it was the length of a feature film.

[00:07:56] So that was like, yeah, yeah.

[00:07:58] Yeah.

[00:07:58] And it was like you, and that should have been an exciting thing, but I think, I think that it was a mistake for them to hold off so much to the finale.

[00:08:07] I think, cause I was thinking about shows that have really captivated me from the jump.

[00:08:12] Like for instance, okay, this is a, this is a throwback, but I was thinking about vampire diaries and how that caught me in the first season is they would constantly, they would resolve.

[00:08:21] Uh, one mystery and immediately set up the next one.

[00:08:25] And we're like silos tends to be good at that as well.

[00:08:28] Mm.

[00:08:28] And this is something that keeps people more engaged.

[00:08:33] Whereas here it's just like, we're waiting for too many pennies to drop at the same time and starting to lose the plot.

[00:08:38] Right.

[00:08:39] And that gets into that mystery box territory where we know with law, like from our lost experience with loss, the, the, if the mysteries go on and on and on, we get a little bit exhausted as it from an entertainment standpoint, it can be a little bit, um, trying.

[00:08:53] Yeah.

[00:08:53] And you're holding all these plot threads and you're like, okay, which one is going to resolve?

[00:08:57] Well, which one was that?

[00:08:58] And I can't remember.

[00:08:59] And yeah, I agree.

[00:09:00] Yeah.

[00:09:01] Yeah.

[00:09:01] It was it to, to put it, put a double episode and call.

[00:09:04] I mean, I get from a timing standpoint with, um, December holidays and you know, all the things like, do we go another week, uh, and get into the new year stuff or do they wrap it up in a double?

[00:09:17] So that's kind of a weird, I don't know what, what, how that led, how that decision was led because of scheduling and to pack it.

[00:09:27] So, cause we always knew it was six episodes.

[00:09:29] They never said it was going to be anything but right.

[00:09:31] Well, I do have the feeling that at some point, I mean, you know, since, since they finally announced when it was coming out a few months ago, they've said that, but I do have a feeling that there was more at one point because I feel like they chopped things out.

[00:09:46] And that's part of the problem with why.

[00:09:49] And so this is what I hope for with the second season is it's not just that, um, that it's, you know, it should be six episodes should be enough to tell some piece of a story.

[00:09:59] You just have to decide how much of a piece fits into six episodes.

[00:10:02] Uh, but when you have, and this was something similar, like what happened with house of the dragon season two, if you have already planned out a story, uh, for 10 episodes in that case, or, you know, for whatever they might've been thinking here.

[00:10:17] And then suddenly you're, you know, you, you have to chop things out.

[00:10:22] Then it starts to feel like, uh, unfinished or oddly paced rushed in some places.

[00:10:27] And like, there's things missing.

[00:10:29] Like why is, or is Jenna suddenly obsessed with calling Lila doe eyes all the time?

[00:10:35] Yeah, exactly.

[00:10:36] It's like, uh, it's like you've adjusted the recipe before.

[00:10:39] Yeah.

[00:10:39] I'm trying to think of an analogy of cooking or something, but, uh, it feels, you can feel that something artificially was done as opposed to the next.

[00:10:47] Natural pace and flow of the storyline that they had originally conceived.

[00:10:51] Right.

[00:10:52] And you can feel those structural changes.

[00:10:54] Yeah.

[00:10:54] Yeah.

[00:10:55] It's, uh, it's a strange one.

[00:10:57] Uh, but anyway, maybe we should actually start to talk about the episode.

[00:11:01] So I think from here forward.

[00:11:03] One more thing.

[00:11:04] I didn't.

[00:11:05] Oh, sorry.

[00:11:06] For one more thing is just, I did want to compliment again, the visual side of things.

[00:11:11] So one thing that a lot of people were calling out in the discord, and it was also something I immediately put in my own notes.

[00:11:16] Is it was so cool.

[00:11:18] We finally saw at the end, the image of space folding, like basically a wormhole opening so that one of the ships can emerge into space.

[00:11:27] And, you know, in from.

[00:11:28] That's new lore.

[00:11:30] Right.

[00:11:30] That's new visual lore for us for Dune.

[00:11:33] Right.

[00:11:33] Yeah.

[00:11:33] But it fits with the book lore about the fact folding space basically means that you're creating wormholes to get to, to between places faster.

[00:11:42] Um, yeah.

[00:11:43] So it was the, I, they really did a cool job visualizing that.

[00:11:46] The ships always look good.

[00:11:47] Although I noticed, I said, it looks like a really cool vape pen.

[00:11:53] That's funny.

[00:11:54] That's funny.

[00:11:54] I actually watched, uh, interstellar on the airplane.

[00:11:58] That was my one movie, uh, as we were flying out here.

[00:12:01] And so I was like, oh yeah, we're moles.

[00:12:02] There you go.

[00:12:04] So, uh, shout out to, uh, our, um, our friend, uh, Aisha over at, uh, every single sci-fi film ever.

[00:12:12] She just did a podcast about interstellar, which is one of your favorite movies or it's a strong movie for you.

[00:12:19] So it's scientifically a strong movie, writing, not a strong movie.

[00:12:24] I was, I noticed how much exposition.

[00:12:27] Yeah.

[00:12:27] I noticed how much exposition there is in that movie, but anyway, that's a, that's a different podcast.

[00:12:34] So should we, you're ready to talk about the episode now?

[00:12:37] Yeah.

[00:12:37] And we'll give a little bit of spoiler warning.

[00:12:39] Yeah.

[00:12:39] We're going to talk about everything up through C, uh, episode six.

[00:12:42] And, uh, again, to clarify book lore or lore in general versus plot.

[00:12:50] And I think we've been talking about the extended Dune universe stuff relative to the show and doing some minor, you know, some comparisons there.

[00:12:58] And then talking about book one of the original series and then the two Villeneuve, uh, Dune one and Dune tune movies, uh, just sort of as, uh, sort of all, uh, fair game.

[00:13:11] Um, and we don't want to spoil anybody's enjoyment, but then we also need to be able to talk about the show relatively with some relative cogens.

[00:13:21] Right.

[00:13:23] So, uh, do you want to lead us through the, uh, outline you put that together for us?

[00:13:27] So thanks.

[00:13:27] Yeah, sure.

[00:13:28] So there, there is one piece of that, that machine that you see at the end.

[00:13:33] We'll talk about that, I guess, after the closing credits.

[00:13:36] That's only the, the only piece of extra book lore that I added.

[00:13:39] Right.

[00:13:39] That's a good call.

[00:13:40] Yeah.

[00:13:40] We'll, we'll do some deeper, um, uh, no, just a brief talk.

[00:13:45] Yeah.

[00:13:45] Yeah.

[00:13:45] Yeah.

[00:13:45] Full spoilers, uh, for sure.

[00:13:47] Sounds good.

[00:13:48] Okay, great.

[00:13:49] All right.

[00:13:51] Episode six titled the high handed enemy, which I thought was the weakest title series, but

[00:13:56] that's fine.

[00:13:57] This did get the highest, um, rating on IMDB of the season.

[00:14:01] So it's 8.4.

[00:14:03] It got for this episode.

[00:14:05] Uh, episode three was the lowest rated by the way, with a 7.4.

[00:14:08] So that's actually still pretty solid for IMDB.

[00:14:12] Um, the writers were Elizabeth Padden and Susan Rubel and Padden.

[00:14:17] So she, her previous work includes umbrella Academy seasons three and four, which an altered carbon season two.

[00:14:28] Rubel worked on Westworld seasons three and four.

[00:14:31] So it's like, okay, you can see the, this is a cadre that works together, but yeah.

[00:14:35] Yeah.

[00:14:35] And this one was, it was directed by Anna Forster.

[00:14:37] I was looking forward to altered carbon season two as well.

[00:14:41] And then I was like, what's going on here?

[00:14:43] But anyway, different, different.

[00:14:44] Did you finish it?

[00:14:45] No, I dropped out.

[00:14:46] No, no.

[00:14:47] Yeah.

[00:14:47] I dropped out after an episode.

[00:14:48] Yeah.

[00:14:49] I enjoyed season one in kind of a bubblegum sort of pop sci-fi way.

[00:14:53] It was good.

[00:14:54] So yeah, me too.

[00:14:56] All right.

[00:14:57] So yeah.

[00:14:58] So first section secrets above all.

[00:15:01] So we get a replay of the.

[00:15:04] Can I interject really quick too, just to set everybody's expectations.

[00:15:07] We're going to, you set up kind of a thematic structure as opposed to a scene by scene structure

[00:15:13] just for.

[00:15:13] Right.

[00:15:14] So that we're not here for two and a half hours.

[00:15:16] Right.

[00:15:16] Our families are going, where are you?

[00:15:18] Right.

[00:15:19] So we're going to talk about the whole arc now with, with what we find out about the

[00:15:23] sisterhood, except, yeah, we'll talk about the machine stuff later, but.

[00:15:26] Right.

[00:15:26] Okay.

[00:15:27] So we flashback to when Valia voiced.

[00:15:32] No, I can't do it.

[00:15:34] Used the voice on Dorotea to command her to stab herself in the throat.

[00:15:39] And we find out that Valia's whole, her club, you know, of.

[00:15:45] All right.

[00:15:45] So we should point them out.

[00:15:46] Her sister.

[00:15:48] And we have Francesca who becomes the mistress of the emperor and Kasha, who was his truth

[00:15:56] sayer until she died first episode.

[00:15:57] So they were all there watching and they saw Dorotea die and they come running afterwards.

[00:16:03] And then Valia is like, oh, but we all know, like, uh, we have to tell the truth, but, um,

[00:16:10] they, they agree.

[00:16:11] They're going to tell a version of the truth that doesn't include the fact that Valia forced

[00:16:16] Dorotea to kill herself.

[00:16:17] And Valia is like sisterhood above all.

[00:16:19] But do you get the sense that she's saying that it's about protecting herself in this moment?

[00:16:25] It's about her getting away with it.

[00:16:27] It's not considering, obviously not considering Dorotea as a sister or these other sisters

[00:16:32] she's forcing to lie.

[00:16:34] Yeah.

[00:16:35] And it's, uh, it goes into that central tension that we've been running with the whole season,

[00:16:40] which is, is Valia out for herself or is, is Valia really given herself to the sisterhood

[00:16:47] and the mission of the sisterhood or is she bending the sisterhood to her own, uh, goals

[00:16:52] and motivations?

[00:16:53] And I think that that's clearly a play here, uh, with how she's, you know, she made a, you

[00:17:01] know, a pretty vicious decision in the moment.

[00:17:05] And you've now got evidence of, uh, some criminality.

[00:17:09] I'm using sort of scare quotes around that, but you know, that she did something bad and

[00:17:13] they have to cover it up.

[00:17:14] And then again, it goes into the whole, uh, truth versus lies that we're dealing with

[00:17:20] in this whole season, you know, with true sayers and truth being a commodity.

[00:17:24] And I think I had this in my, my notes somewhere that, you know, the, what the, the best lie

[00:17:29] is something that is as close to the truth as possible.

[00:17:32] So, you know, I think they were playing with that as well in there, but then obviously

[00:17:38] relative to what we see in the rest of the episode, it gets pretty gruesome there on Wallet

[00:17:43] Nine.

[00:17:44] Yeah.

[00:17:44] Yeah.

[00:17:45] They go extreme.

[00:17:46] Yeah.

[00:17:47] Yeah.

[00:17:48] But Tula though, this is where we see that despite the fact that Tula was willing to commit

[00:17:53] a massacre for her sister, she seems to have some reluctance.

[00:17:57] She seems, she seems reluctant to lie.

[00:17:59] And we find out that she's pregnant and Valia is like, Oh, no problem.

[00:18:03] When I'm mother superior, we can do whatever we want and you can keep your baby.

[00:18:07] You don't have to give it away.

[00:18:08] Like sisters normally have to.

[00:18:10] And then she says sisters above all.

[00:18:12] And I feel like there's the double primary meaning where she's like us as Harkonnen sisters

[00:18:19] above all.

[00:18:21] Yeah.

[00:18:22] I like that.

[00:18:23] Yeah.

[00:18:23] Yeah.

[00:18:23] I like that.

[00:18:24] I didn't actually think of it in that way, but I like how you, how you set that up.

[00:18:28] It's, it is sisters above all that it's the Harkonnens, not the sisterhood, the proto-Bene

[00:18:33] Jezre.

[00:18:33] Yeah.

[00:18:34] I actually didn't think about that.

[00:18:35] That's good.

[00:18:36] Yeah.

[00:18:36] But then as we see, that doesn't work out very well either.

[00:18:40] Yeah.

[00:18:41] Well, because now this, she finds out in this episode that Tula maybe isn't as much her

[00:18:49] creature as she expected.

[00:18:50] Right.

[00:18:51] Right.

[00:18:51] Right.

[00:18:52] Yeah.

[00:18:52] And then there's a, there's a betrayal.

[00:18:54] Yeah.

[00:18:54] Tula commits another betrayal.

[00:18:56] So.

[00:18:56] Yeah.

[00:18:57] Because, because Valia says Tula's child hasn't, she's like, Oh, he has incredible potential.

[00:19:02] We're going to shape him into, you know, what I want him to be basically.

[00:19:07] And Tula's like, I don't know if I want this for my son.

[00:19:11] So she, apparently with the help of Francesca, she finds out that there's an itinerant worker

[00:19:19] who had a stillborn baby and they swap the stillborn baby for her own son, who of course

[00:19:24] is Desmond.

[00:19:27] And how did, he did say in a previous episode, how did he learn that he was a child of a sister?

[00:19:33] I don't think, did they reveal that?

[00:19:36] He just said that, that he just stated that fact.

[00:19:38] I don't think there was any revelation as to how that came about.

[00:19:43] What was his planet that he was on?

[00:19:46] Balut.

[00:19:47] Balut.

[00:19:48] Right.

[00:19:49] And I don't think, yeah, I don't think they gave us much more.

[00:19:51] And then the only thing is, is that he has that little piece of cloth, which is, you know,

[00:19:56] somehow connected.

[00:19:57] And we didn't even get a full resolution of that either, if I'm not mistaken.

[00:20:03] Yeah.

[00:20:04] And that's been.

[00:20:05] This is where it feels like stuff has been cut out.

[00:20:06] Yeah.

[00:20:07] Hmm.

[00:20:08] Well, and I'm glad, again, going back to the good choice by the studio to tell us before

[00:20:16] the season dropped that there is going to be a season two, because we'd all be like,

[00:20:19] what?

[00:20:20] You know, because we were all, I was expecting anyway, that man, they're going to have a truck

[00:20:25] load of plot points to resolve here.

[00:20:29] And how are they going to do that?

[00:20:30] And so it was a, it was a smart thing to do.

[00:20:33] Right.

[00:20:34] Especially with their numbers.

[00:20:35] I mean, that's good.

[00:20:36] I'm glad that the show is getting some numbers.

[00:20:38] So, and getting some ratings.

[00:20:40] So anyway.

[00:20:41] Yeah.

[00:20:42] We've already talked about that a bunch.

[00:20:43] So.

[00:20:44] Yeah.

[00:20:45] So, okay.

[00:20:45] So then another plot thread throughout this episode is what we learn in this episode is

[00:20:51] basically a nano virus, whereas nanos, nanos smaller than micro.

[00:20:55] And these are a real thing, you know, machines that are so infinitesimally tiny that we can't

[00:21:03] really see them.

[00:21:05] There's a couple of good books about it that I would recommend.

[00:21:09] One, I can't say because it's a spoiler, but a prey by Michael Crichton.

[00:21:16] That's one that it's a lot about nanotech.

[00:21:18] Okay.

[00:21:18] So there's a lot of fears around nanotech, of course.

[00:21:21] Very big topic in the Star Trek, in the next generation world as well.

[00:21:25] Okay.

[00:21:26] Okay.

[00:21:26] Yeah.

[00:21:27] Yeah.

[00:21:28] And yeah, I liked this idea of they're like the viral nightmare, which of course they mean

[00:21:33] a nightmare spread by virus, but it just made me think of like, this nightmare is so hot

[00:21:38] on TikTok right now.

[00:21:41] Yeah, indeed.

[00:21:43] But I like that phrasing though.

[00:21:44] So, and we have sister Nazir back as the Sook doctor sister.

[00:21:48] For a brief moment.

[00:21:50] For a brief moment.

[00:21:51] As soon as she's like, I volunteer as tribute.

[00:21:53] I'm like, oh, she's dead.

[00:21:55] Yeah, exactly.

[00:21:57] And it was interesting.

[00:21:58] I think I have some questions about the virus.

[00:22:02] And obviously we know, I didn't, we know that this is going to be a, this is one of the

[00:22:08] tracks that they're laying out for the litany against fear, which is a big thing from the

[00:22:12] original books.

[00:22:12] I was really surprised I didn't get there in this episode, but okay.

[00:22:15] Yeah.

[00:22:16] I was too, but again, season two, right?

[00:22:20] You know, leaving some stuff.

[00:22:21] And, and I, I know the guys who were on the Dune Minute podcast had flagged that very early

[00:22:27] on and I, I had been paying attention to other things.

[00:22:29] So I wasn't tracking the development of the litany, but in this episode, oh yeah, it's

[00:22:35] right there.

[00:22:35] It's front and center there.

[00:22:37] You know, oh, it's a fear-based thing.

[00:22:39] It's in your brain.

[00:22:40] You have to work through it.

[00:22:41] And it's like, yeah, okay.

[00:22:42] And I liked some of the visual representation that they showed us for how the virus was

[00:22:49] operating and how to fight it.

[00:22:51] I was confused.

[00:22:53] Can you explain that?

[00:22:54] Can you explain what was going on with the boxes and the particle?

[00:22:57] How did the particles get in the boxes instead of being in her body?

[00:23:00] I, okay.

[00:23:01] So this is my head cannon and it could be certainly not correct.

[00:23:05] I was thinking of it more of a, uh, uh, uh, a visual representation.

[00:23:11] In some way, some sort of maybe, um, computer animated particulate matter, you know, like

[00:23:17] they're, they got a bunch of stuff in there and then the computer, some, some sort of computer

[00:23:21] is, is, uh, displaying that real time.

[00:23:25] I didn't read it as those are the actual particles.

[00:23:29] Like those are the actual nanoparticles.

[00:23:31] I could be wrong, but that's the way I was kind of interpreting it.

[00:23:34] Okay.

[00:23:34] No, I mean, I got it that it's like, how do we represent it visually?

[00:23:37] But I just thought it would be cooler and maybe it was too, it's probably much cheaper

[00:23:41] to do that version with just particles in the air versus what we saw, um, with, with

[00:23:47] Lila's agony where they actually like kind of showed inside her body.

[00:23:51] That was really cool.

[00:23:52] And that's what I expected here.

[00:23:53] And then we can see like the little, like zoom in on a little nano in there, but maybe

[00:23:58] that was just too expensive.

[00:23:59] Right.

[00:24:00] Yeah.

[00:24:00] VFX wise.

[00:24:01] Yeah.

[00:24:02] Right.

[00:24:02] I guess, and I guess that's some of where my question open questions are is how does

[00:24:08] this thing work?

[00:24:09] And then later when Valia is able to gain some memory visualizations of what Desmond went

[00:24:20] through, like how does the virus, how did the virus allow her to do that?

[00:24:23] I, I kind of have some questions around there just in the idea of a virus itself operating

[00:24:32] in a fear-based thing.

[00:24:33] Like, okay, the center is activating and then that activates the virus and the nanoparticles

[00:24:39] and what have you.

[00:24:39] Oh, I can get that.

[00:24:40] That's an interesting, uh, interesting technology, right?

[00:24:44] That's an interesting way to, to do this, but yeah, there's still a lot of unclarity.

[00:24:49] Uh, yeah.

[00:24:50] How does Desmond activate it?

[00:24:52] Yeah.

[00:24:53] They said, yeah, he must be the virus's first victim.

[00:24:56] So it's like, he's like the supreme carrier because then they also say that killing him would

[00:25:02] stop it, which of course Tula doesn't want, but I guess it would stop it because when we

[00:25:07] see, he does seem to have, you know, it's something that can be triggered and he seems

[00:25:11] to be able to trigger it, but we still don't know how that works.

[00:25:13] Mm-hmm.

[00:25:14] And he does that breathe out thing when he's with Volia at the end there, assuming, I'm

[00:25:19] assuming that's how he's infecting her.

[00:25:21] He's putting particles into the air.

[00:25:23] Yes?

[00:25:24] No?

[00:25:25] I don't know.

[00:25:25] I don't know.

[00:25:26] Yeah.

[00:25:26] How is it so selective, the virus?

[00:25:28] Like when he implants it in the, at the Lanzarad meeting, you know, he has certain people

[00:25:34] who are affected by it, but not others.

[00:25:37] So how does that work?

[00:25:37] Yeah.

[00:25:38] And then when the couple of times where we've seen him interacting with victims that he,

[00:25:45] you know, that have the internal combustion thing happening, there is this whole thing

[00:25:49] of him touching his temple and his eye and whatnot.

[00:25:53] So yeah.

[00:25:54] And we see obviously the eye technology in there.

[00:25:56] So obviously there's a connection between the virus and what was, how he was altered.

[00:26:01] Right.

[00:26:02] So, but yeah, we don't, yeah.

[00:26:04] Season two, right?

[00:26:05] If we even get it.

[00:26:06] Right.

[00:26:06] I mean, not, not that we don't get season two, but that we.

[00:26:09] No.

[00:26:09] Yeah.

[00:26:09] If we keep laying out the, yeah.

[00:26:11] Well, they keep playing the mystery out, which I think like you said, you know, set

[00:26:17] up a mystery, pay it off, set up a mystery and pay it off.

[00:26:20] And that, that feels good and entertaining for us as opposed to this, you know, you have

[00:26:25] longer, bigger story arcs, but yeah, don't, don't keep trailing, stringing us along.

[00:26:30] It gets a little exhausting.

[00:26:32] So.

[00:26:32] Right.

[00:26:32] Yeah.

[00:26:33] It's too much to keep track of.

[00:26:34] And especially for people who are new to the lore.

[00:26:37] Indeed.

[00:26:38] Indeed.

[00:26:38] Or even, you know, those of us who are not new to the lore and are nervously awaiting

[00:26:42] them telling us it's not magic.

[00:26:45] Exactly.

[00:26:47] At least it wasn't magic.

[00:26:48] At least.

[00:26:48] Exactly.

[00:26:49] Exactly.

[00:26:49] I am sorry to see Nazir go though.

[00:26:52] Yeah, me too.

[00:26:53] I like the actress and yeah.

[00:26:55] Well, I'm sorry to see a few members of the cast go next season.

[00:26:59] It's going to be interesting.

[00:27:00] Indeed.

[00:27:00] But yes, she, she does like give us some good Intel before she goes.

[00:27:06] She says that there were lesions multiplied in Kasha's brain when she died in the first

[00:27:11] episode.

[00:27:11] And so I, this, she says that happened over the course of days and this is, and Kasha was

[00:27:17] basically because she's a sister, she was able to, you know, do her prana bindu and,

[00:27:23] and keep herself calmer longer.

[00:27:25] And that's why she lasted longer than the victims on Seleucus Secundus.

[00:27:31] But.

[00:27:33] So go ahead.

[00:27:34] I had a question, but go ahead.

[00:27:37] Well, yeah, it's just, I don't remember what I was going to say.

[00:27:41] Go ahead.

[00:27:42] Okay.

[00:27:43] I was wondering if there, you know, she's, she would have died on Seleucus Secundus before

[00:27:50] she left to go back to Wallach nine, but she was using her thing.

[00:27:54] So was, what was Desmond's intent then?

[00:27:57] If he infected her, but didn't activate her, will this thing slowly grow on you?

[00:28:05] And then, oh, wait, but then how are the sisters being affected by it?

[00:28:09] Kasha must've spread it on Wallach nine.

[00:28:11] Yeah, exactly.

[00:28:12] But then why would it all die if Desmond died?

[00:28:14] I don't know.

[00:28:15] I need to like, apparently not think about this too much.

[00:28:18] Oh, but I remember what I was going to say.

[00:28:20] What I was going to say is she, over the course of days, this kind of tells us that

[00:28:25] the jetpacking that's happening is just editing.

[00:28:28] It's not really that she's going that fast.

[00:28:31] They're just editing it to look like things are happening at the same time.

[00:28:35] So as a lore oriented person with the books for myself, there are two, I have two criticisms

[00:28:43] of the show.

[00:28:43] One is about the voice, but the other is about the jetpacking.

[00:28:46] Like space travel in this time and in this universe, the way that Herbert set it up,

[00:28:51] it was expensive and it took a long time.

[00:28:55] And it wasn't an easy thing to do, but yet here we have, and I get it for the sake of

[00:29:00] the story, we do need a little jetpackiness, right?

[00:29:03] Well, yeah.

[00:29:04] To keep the story moving.

[00:29:04] I mean, if anyone can afford it, it's the Imperial family and the sisterhood.

[00:29:09] So.

[00:29:09] Sure.

[00:29:09] That's a good point.

[00:29:10] That's a good point.

[00:29:10] But it is a little jetpack.

[00:29:12] I will say it's a little bit much.

[00:29:13] But I think it is just also, I'm saying like that the trips, we should assume the trips

[00:29:18] are taking longer than we see.

[00:29:20] They just don't like, they don't show Kasha sitting on the ship, you know, they just show

[00:29:25] her walk on, walk off.

[00:29:27] So it feels like it's happening instantaneously, but then they're like, oh no, there were days in

[00:29:30] between.

[00:29:31] That's a good point.

[00:29:32] And we don't have any other markers in the script or anything like that that say, oh,

[00:29:35] hey, you know, you know, she left, you know, six months ago and whatever.

[00:29:38] Right.

[00:29:39] Exactly.

[00:29:39] Yeah.

[00:29:40] Yeah.

[00:29:41] But yeah.

[00:29:42] So Nazir, the other thing that we learned from her, well, first of all, she, she's the

[00:29:45] one who notices that they're nanos and she says, the monster of Arrakis eyes, they're watching

[00:29:50] him.

[00:29:51] It's not human.

[00:29:51] So we find out later that of course we'll get, we'll get back to this, but this is the machine

[00:29:56] we see later pulling Desmond's eye out because the nightmares are basically all Desmond's

[00:30:01] visions that are being virally passed on.

[00:30:04] I guess that's how it's going.

[00:30:06] And then Valia was able to trace.

[00:30:09] She was able to last the longest to see the vision completely play out.

[00:30:13] Is that?

[00:30:14] I guess so.

[00:30:15] I guess so.

[00:30:16] Yeah.

[00:30:16] Yeah.

[00:30:17] She's super Reverend Mother, super Mother Superior.

[00:30:19] Yeah.

[00:30:20] Well, and she had Tula's help coaching her, right?

[00:30:22] Because she kept pulling her back saying, Hey, don't fight it.

[00:30:25] Yeah.

[00:30:25] Right.

[00:30:26] Right.

[00:30:26] Do the finger trap thing where you have to push in rather than pull out.

[00:30:30] So.

[00:30:30] Right.

[00:30:31] Because the thing is that they can't, they want the sisterhood want to approach this the

[00:30:36] same way they do the Rossak poison where they think like, if I can transmute it within

[00:30:40] my body, I can conquer it and become some better being out of it, you know?

[00:30:45] Um, but because they are machines or as Nazir puts it, thinking machines on a nanoscale

[00:30:51] engineered on a small scale to be triggered.

[00:30:53] So they can't transmute it.

[00:30:55] They.

[00:30:55] Right.

[00:30:56] Oh, okay.

[00:30:56] That makes sense now.

[00:30:57] I get it now.

[00:30:58] Okay.

[00:30:58] I wasn't, when I was watching it, I didn't have the, that the fact that these are nanobots

[00:31:02] so to speak.

[00:31:04] Um, uh, I wasn't, I didn't have that piece of the puzzle.

[00:31:07] So then that makes sense.

[00:31:08] I was only able to watch this once.

[00:31:09] So in sort of a travel fatigue state, right?

[00:31:13] I had to take a little nap at one point watching it and then come back to it.

[00:31:17] Our flight was like super delayed and we got in so early and was it as crowded for you as

[00:31:22] it was for me?

[00:31:23] Actually not.

[00:31:25] It was pretty, we flew out of Boston and it was pretty chill.

[00:31:29] And even though we kept getting delayed, uh, everybody was in a good mood and the crew

[00:31:32] was, it was all like, given the fact that there was the delay, everything else was fine.

[00:31:37] So we just got in very, very late.

[00:31:39] So I was a little tired the other day.

[00:31:41] So anyway, that's neither.

[00:31:42] There you are there.

[00:31:43] Well, yeah, I think, um, so Hanukkah starts tomorrow night as well.

[00:31:47] And so that's what was the explanation I got for why it was for me, every seat was booked

[00:31:52] out, which is fairly rare.

[00:31:54] Right.

[00:31:54] Right.

[00:31:55] Interesting.

[00:31:56] Anyway.

[00:31:57] Anyway, uh, speaking of seats being booked out, they're filling up that jailhouse.

[00:32:02] Yes.

[00:32:02] The suspenser cells are full with two people.

[00:32:06] So we've got this suspenser jailhouse shuffle going on this episode.

[00:32:09] We've got, um, first Kieran, he's getting suspenser belt torture from Desmond.

[00:32:15] Who's like, I'm going to beat you up, but now you should work for me and avenge your family

[00:32:19] name.

[00:32:20] And Kieran's like, no, no, it can't be Harkonnens involved because I hate Harkonnens because

[00:32:25] they killed my whole family.

[00:32:26] And he's like, yeah, avenge them.

[00:32:27] Um, I don't know.

[00:32:28] Any thoughts about that?

[00:32:30] No, just thought, I just thought that throwing him against the wall didn't seem very, uh,

[00:32:34] imaginative for that.

[00:32:35] I, I think they were trying to play with the suspenser technology.

[00:32:38] What cool could we, what cool things can we do?

[00:32:40] And it was like, well, let's just throw them against the wall.

[00:32:42] Yeah.

[00:32:42] At least hold them upside down or something.

[00:32:44] I don't know.

[00:32:44] Exactly.

[00:32:48] Suspenser pinata.

[00:32:49] Yeah.

[00:32:50] Anyway.

[00:32:51] Uh, yeah, I don't, I don't know that I have much to, to say about that particular aspect.

[00:32:55] I mean, it, it was a natural, natural, uh, um, coming together of plot lines and, you know,

[00:33:02] that kind of stuff.

[00:33:03] So yeah, it seemed pretty straightforward to me.

[00:33:06] Yeah.

[00:33:07] And, uh, yeah.

[00:33:08] And Inez is trying to free him and she's arrested by her mother and her mother says, I wanted

[00:33:13] to teach you about power.

[00:33:15] So let this be a lesson.

[00:33:16] So, okay.

[00:33:17] What did you think of that?

[00:33:19] I was pretty surprised that she, uh, made that choice that, that, uh, Natalia made that

[00:33:27] choice given, you know, we had that intimate scene earlier on at the betrothal where she's

[00:33:34] sort of, there's this lovely little mother.

[00:33:36] Right.

[00:33:36] And I, here's, here is a, another critique, I guess, of the, the plot.

[00:33:43] Well, this is a, we're really intimate with a lot of these characters and we are supposed

[00:33:51] to be sort of bonded to them.

[00:33:53] So as they're going through all these different trials and tribulations and these difficult

[00:33:56] choices that they have to make, that's should be the emotional payoff for us as viewers, you

[00:34:02] know, in terms of the entertainment.

[00:34:03] And I think with the compressed six episode schedule and, you know, regardless of the quality

[00:34:10] of the writing and the, and the, the particular writers involved in it, I never felt the mother

[00:34:18] daughter tension build up enough to have it then broken by her choice to have her arrested.

[00:34:25] Right.

[00:34:26] And I get it.

[00:34:27] Intellectually, they put some stuff out there for me to feel that, but then emotionally it

[00:34:31] never punched me the way I would have liked to, to have been punched.

[00:34:35] That's a weird thing to say, but anyway, you know what I mean?

[00:34:38] Like, Oh my God, I can't believe that that happened between mother and daughter, dah, dah,

[00:34:41] dah, dah.

[00:34:42] Cause they just never built their relationship beyond that one moment really.

[00:34:46] And so I get that Natalia is a power center of her own because she came, she brought a good

[00:34:56] chunk of the Imperium into this alliance and that she sees her daughter.

[00:35:01] As this future ruler.

[00:35:03] And so she wants to groom her and prepare her to be successful.

[00:35:07] But then, you know, she gets obviously all the things that go on.

[00:35:11] And then when she makes that decision, it just, it didn't, it didn't have that, that spark

[00:35:16] I wanted from it.

[00:35:17] Yeah.

[00:35:18] To, to make me really feel something for this relationship.

[00:35:20] Yeah.

[00:35:21] The last real interaction we saw, which we, and you know, that, that first interaction

[00:35:25] where she's prepping her for her wedding and it seemed like there's so much warmth.

[00:35:29] Yeah.

[00:35:29] That reminded me actually.

[00:35:31] I do really like the Obi-Wan Kenobi series.

[00:35:34] And there was a nice thing with.

[00:35:36] Never apologize.

[00:35:38] I'm not apologizing.

[00:35:39] I know.

[00:35:40] I know.

[00:35:40] Just like it can apologize to me.

[00:35:44] But there's, there's this nice, lovely scene between little Leia and her mother.

[00:35:51] And I realized that this was mirroring that also in like the set decor to a certain extent

[00:35:58] too.

[00:36:00] So I realized I carried some warmth over from that as well, from that association.

[00:36:05] Right.

[00:36:06] But the last real interaction we saw was that dinner where Natalia ended up storming off

[00:36:11] from the table because, you know, because her father was, you know, Javiko was openly

[00:36:17] floating, flirting with Francesca and all that.

[00:36:20] And her brother got the promotion and yeah.

[00:36:22] Right.

[00:36:23] And Inez was the only one who really noticed her mother stock off, but she didn't follow

[00:36:30] her.

[00:36:30] And of course her mother didn't notice her noticing her.

[00:36:32] And I wonder if she'd followed her and been like, mom, are you okay?

[00:36:36] If that would have changed everything.

[00:36:38] Right.

[00:36:38] If that would have given us one more intimate moment so that when the heel turn came, it

[00:36:43] would have had a bit more impact.

[00:36:44] Yeah.

[00:36:45] Right.

[00:36:45] Or if it would have prevented the heel turn.

[00:36:47] I don't know.

[00:36:48] Yeah.

[00:36:48] Yeah.

[00:36:49] Anyway, it's a, it's a power move.

[00:36:52] And it all goes into Natalia's play to ultimately, you know, stake more of her ground

[00:37:00] because obviously she's frustrated with his, with his ineptitude, his ineptitude and his

[00:37:07] inability to actually be a strong leader, which then we learn later how much he was set up

[00:37:12] to not be a strong leader.

[00:37:14] Right.

[00:37:15] Right.

[00:37:16] Yeah.

[00:37:16] He's about stability, not strength.

[00:37:18] Yeah.

[00:37:18] Right.

[00:37:20] And, and we've also Valia, she gets arrested.

[00:37:23] She wants to get arrested to get close to Inez in the jail.

[00:37:26] And so she, this is when Theodosia, the face dancing thing finally comes back into play.

[00:37:31] And we find out that Theodosia was an experiment of Tlaloxin geneticists.

[00:37:35] So how many other experiments like that do you think could be out there?

[00:37:40] You would think that she would not be the only one.

[00:37:44] Right.

[00:37:45] Right.

[00:37:45] Right.

[00:37:46] That sort of, that, that they had a program, you know, a whole scientific experiment and

[00:37:52] they would probably be a little upset that their experiment, uh, went missing and is no longer.

[00:38:02] So that's a good motivation for trying to get paid.

[00:38:06] I, this is just occurring to me now, like who could be behind Desmond?

[00:38:09] And that's a good motive right there.

[00:38:12] It was like, oh, the sisterhood has our, uh, our, uh, experiment.

[00:38:18] I hate to refer to a human being as an experiment, but anyway, uh, that, that, you know, that she's been taken by the sisters.

[00:38:27] So you could see that they would maybe want to, you know, uh, do something against them.

[00:38:32] So that's a good motivation.

[00:38:33] Mm-hmm.

[00:38:34] Yeah.

[00:38:36] Yeah.

[00:38:36] And, oh, sorry to add one more thing too, that we know that for Villeneuve's third movie, we know from a lore standpoint, we don't want to talk about it, but that there is some, they're laying, it's conceivable that they're laying some track.

[00:38:52] They're prepping some material for the third movie without being specific about that material, but that they're leading up to something.

[00:39:00] Yeah.

[00:39:01] Yeah.

[00:39:01] Maybe, I think the face dancers come in a little later in the, in the books, but similar to basically the, what, what are then by then called the Benny Sleilocks or Tlilocks or however it's pronounced.

[00:39:13] Um, they play a role in the third.

[00:39:17] In the book that the third movie is going to be based on.

[00:39:19] Yeah.

[00:39:19] Exactly.

[00:39:20] Exactly.

[00:39:22] But yeah, so we, so Valia, she wants to get arrested and it seems to me like, I don't know, I guess she's just done with Chavico.

[00:39:30] And so she decides to just be a complete bitch to him and that's how she's going to be arrested.

[00:39:35] She's going to say the most petty things possible, belittling, just really cruel.

[00:39:40] Um, yeah, I don't know.

[00:39:43] It just seems like she could have played this a completely different way and gotten a much better outcome, but okay.

[00:39:49] I guess that's not how her brain works.

[00:39:51] The, the other thing for me was that it seemed like a massive exposition dump.

[00:39:56] Right.

[00:39:56] She was like, I, I, it felt very much like a Bond villain, you know, James Bond villain, uh, ex, uh, exposition speech.

[00:40:04] Like, well, this is how I'm going to take over the world.

[00:40:06] So you're not going to stop me because I'm going to kill you in the most slow and devious manner possible.

[00:40:11] Rather than just exactly.

[00:40:14] So it just felt like a, Ooh, yeah, here's a, here's a whole lot of lore that we're just going to sort of throw at you.

[00:40:20] I did kind of in some way, just from a character standpoint, I, I thought that the, the, the drama of, of Valia saying all this stuff, it was pretty cutting.

[00:40:35] It felt pretty sharp.

[00:40:37] You know, I was like, no, she was being horrible to him.

[00:40:41] Oh man.

[00:40:42] I feel really sad for him this episode.

[00:40:44] Like that was just a really sad ending, but although I have questions, we'll get to that.

[00:40:47] But, um, and we learn all along that he was, he was enfeebled.

[00:40:52] His whole rule is, was, is a giant exercise in enfeebling him and, and keeping him in a very tight little box for control.

[00:41:01] Because obviously their bigger motive was to get Ynez, you know, to get a sister on the throne.

[00:41:07] Um, and so they were trying to maybe set it up so that when she came in, she would be a sort of a hero of the, like, Oh, here's this great, wonderful leader.

[00:41:19] Which sort of plays into some of how the original book.

[00:41:24] And then at least with the movie with Raban and, uh, fade and that whole kind of thing.

[00:41:30] Like, Oh yeah, you have this one, you know, good cop, bad cop kind of thing.

[00:41:33] Like, Oh, here's a bad leader.

[00:41:34] And now here comes this good leader and we all love him and everybody's happy.

[00:41:37] Yay.

[00:41:38] Like, you know, bringing in as in and like, Hey, we, we, we, she's great.

[00:41:42] So where hobby co was kind of meh.

[00:41:45] Right.

[00:41:45] Yeah.

[00:41:47] Yep.

[00:41:48] Well, okay.

[00:41:48] So to wrap up the face dancing plotline, Theodosia, she ends up swapping places twice.

[00:41:53] So as a bunch of us predicted, she was originally Inez for, but for like 10 seconds.

[00:41:59] Yeah.

[00:41:59] There's a lot of people who got some bowls of cereal on their internet for that.

[00:42:03] But then, um, once Inez, Inez insists upon taking Kieran with them, but then I don't understand the point in Theo staying after that.

[00:42:11] And it's like, Oh, well, I guess it's to buy them time.

[00:42:14] So that they think Inez is there and don't realize she's escaped.

[00:42:17] But then actually Inez and Kieran are stopped and have to fight their way out.

[00:42:22] So that doesn't mean anything, but it doesn't matter.

[00:42:25] Because at the same time, Theodosia has randomly decided to actually give up on being Inez and immediately swap into being a dying guard so that she can try to stab Desmond.

[00:42:36] But that does absolutely nothing.

[00:42:38] So I'm like, uh, okay.

[00:42:41] Yeah, it felt a little wasted.

[00:42:43] And then, of course, now they have Theodosia in custody, right?

[00:42:46] Yeah.

[00:42:47] So, you know, that's obviously a season two plot point.

[00:42:50] And I'm wondering how Desmond is able to survive that gut wound because that is not a good place to be stabbed.

[00:43:00] No place is good to be stabbed, but that is particularly bad.

[00:43:03] Right.

[00:43:04] So, yeah, we're getting a lot of indications.

[00:43:05] He has some superhuman healing something.

[00:43:09] Yeah.

[00:43:09] There's more going on there.

[00:43:11] And then I was kind of disappointed because one of the things that they've been building up with the sisterhood is that they're badasses and they are.

[00:43:19] Their training is superior for a lot of people relative to a lot of people.

[00:43:24] And so just to, like, you know, poke him once and then, like, that was the extent of her.

[00:43:30] Like, I would have loved a little fight scene.

[00:43:32] That would have been cool.

[00:43:33] Yeah.

[00:43:33] Right.

[00:43:33] You know?

[00:43:34] Yeah.

[00:43:35] Theodosia, Desmond, you know, Matrix style, like, come at me, bro.

[00:43:40] Yeah.

[00:43:40] You know?

[00:43:41] Yeah.

[00:43:41] We haven't seen Desmond fight at all, have we?

[00:43:43] Mm-mm.

[00:43:44] For someone who's supposed to be the warrior, the, you know, head of the proto-Sardaukar.

[00:43:49] And the proto-Sardaukar did not do well this episode either, by the way.

[00:43:52] No.

[00:43:53] They did not.

[00:43:54] They are not ready.

[00:43:56] No, they need some more training.

[00:43:57] Yeah.

[00:43:58] They need the planet to be destroyed so that they can live in misery.

[00:44:01] That's right.

[00:44:01] And become more tougher because that's what they say in the books.

[00:44:05] Anyway.

[00:44:05] Exactly.

[00:44:05] That's the whole point.

[00:44:06] That was a, that's a big theme is ecology.

[00:44:08] How ecology shapes species and organisms.

[00:44:11] That's something that Frank was working on very deeply.

[00:44:14] So.

[00:44:15] Yeah.

[00:44:16] And so Desmond calls Theodosia a monstrosity.

[00:44:18] And I just, I kind of chuckled to myself.

[00:44:20] I was like, well, he can't use the word abomination, can he?

[00:44:22] That's taken.

[00:44:23] Yeah, exactly.

[00:44:25] And yeah, Theo left a suspensor car at the palace for the escapees and they eventually,

[00:44:30] they fight their way to it.

[00:44:31] And that's that.

[00:44:32] And Theodosia is, she's now the only prisoner left in the jailhouse.

[00:44:38] Right.

[00:44:38] Right.

[00:44:39] Right.

[00:44:40] So let's take a quick break.

[00:44:42] And then when we come back, we can pick up, what do we've got next?

[00:44:44] The, the abomination?

[00:44:46] We're going to, yeah, we're going to talk about Ina Rule, the thinking machine and the

[00:44:49] abomination.

[00:44:50] Sounds good.

[00:44:51] We'll be right back.

[00:45:06] And we're back.

[00:45:07] All right.

[00:45:08] So let's pick up with Ina Rule and the abomination.

[00:45:11] Yeah.

[00:45:12] So we see another flashback where Tula is having doubts about her sister.

[00:45:17] She's a, she was at first reluctant to embrace the whole Ina Rule is what they call

[00:45:22] their thinking machine.

[00:45:24] That's helping them do the genetic planning.

[00:45:26] But she falls in line there.

[00:45:29] And we see that they actually planned for Haviko and Natalia to get together.

[00:45:36] And we find out Natalia's last name is Arat.

[00:45:38] I can't find anything about that.

[00:45:40] If anyone knows, if there's any Arat in the lore, please let us know.

[00:45:44] But Valia immediately knew who she was.

[00:45:48] So she must be important.

[00:45:49] And she was bringing in, you know, these extra planets that weren't yet part of the

[00:45:54] Imperium.

[00:45:55] So there's an important alliance, but they needed to send, what's her name?

[00:46:00] Francesca to keep Haviko busy, busy until they could marry him off to who they wanted.

[00:46:07] And it strikes me as a little sad for Natalia because Natalia is like, I brokered my own

[00:46:11] marriage.

[00:46:11] And actually we find out that it was all manipulation.

[00:46:14] No, you didn't.

[00:46:15] Yeah.

[00:46:16] And again, just building up the depth of the sisterhood.

[00:46:20] And I think, you know, maybe this is an interesting point here is, you know, at least in the original

[00:46:27] Frank Herbert books and our on-screen, our current on-screen adaptations of that, you know,

[00:46:33] the sisterhood, the Bene Gesserit have really retreated into the shadows more as opposed to

[00:46:38] being overtly controlling and they're using the breeding index more.

[00:46:42] So I wonder if this is all part of that storyline of them going, oh, well, maybe we should be

[00:46:50] less direct because they're kind of direct right now.

[00:46:53] And in some ways, does that make sense?

[00:46:54] Mm-hmm.

[00:46:55] Yeah.

[00:46:56] I see what you mean.

[00:46:57] Yeah.

[00:46:57] Maybe this is the point where they're like, oh, we got to pull back a little bit and maybe

[00:47:00] take a little bit longer view rather than being so direct and maybe short-term thinking.

[00:47:07] But then again, that would be part of what Valia's failures as a leader are in that regard,

[00:47:14] because she's thinking very short-term and thinking as a Harkonnen rather than as a Bene Gesserit.

[00:47:20] Does that make sense?

[00:47:21] Mm-hmm.

[00:47:22] Yeah.

[00:47:23] Yeah.

[00:47:24] And so we get back to Jen and Doe Eyes and we see Jen is tied down Lila for her own safety

[00:47:30] and says it's for her own safety, but it will be over soon.

[00:47:34] So what do they think is going to be over soon?

[00:47:35] That she'll have like finished?

[00:47:38] Yeah.

[00:47:39] Finished, like conquered her inner ancestors, basically.

[00:47:43] Yeah, maybe.

[00:47:44] That's a good speculation.

[00:47:47] Or if they did the spice.

[00:47:50] Yeah.

[00:47:52] Is Lila not affected by the nanovirus?

[00:47:56] Because the spice did something to her?

[00:47:59] I don't know.

[00:48:00] Yeah, maybe they'll find out that there were...

[00:48:03] It seems like they would try because they found out that the spice...

[00:48:05] Because they thought it was connected to the Omnia Scourge, which it is.

[00:48:10] Mm-hmm.

[00:48:10] But they used in the first iteration of that...

[00:48:14] And again, this is in the books.

[00:48:15] None of this has been said in the show or contradicted in the show.

[00:48:18] So just going to go with book lore when we don't know.

[00:48:21] But in the books, at least, spice helps to block the Omnius Plague.

[00:48:27] So you would think that that would be an early thing that they would try.

[00:48:29] Okay.

[00:48:30] So it feels like it's embedded there.

[00:48:32] Yeah.

[00:48:32] But of course, the all, hey, would you please loosen my restraints?

[00:48:37] And you're like, oh, come on.

[00:48:39] Yeah, come on.

[00:48:40] Like, Jen, what kind of sister are you?

[00:48:43] You're no truth sayer.

[00:48:44] Have you not watched all the television that we've watched?

[00:48:47] You know, we know that this is coming.

[00:48:48] And of course, they had foreshadowed the sedative needle thing.

[00:48:54] And of course, she uses that against her.

[00:48:56] Right.

[00:48:57] She pickpockets her and stabs her with it.

[00:48:59] But I mean, it's just like, Jen should be better at truth saying,

[00:49:02] especially if she were supposed to believe that she and Lila are quite close,

[00:49:06] which I think, again, there are some cut scenes from that.

[00:49:08] But then shouldn't she recognize that she's not behaving like herself?

[00:49:13] Yeah, exactly.

[00:49:15] Exactly.

[00:49:15] Because I can see it.

[00:49:17] But it was kind of badass.

[00:49:19] Jen dislocates her thumbs to slip out of the restraints and escape.

[00:49:24] And they've been building Jen up to be a bit of a badass the whole season.

[00:49:30] And so it made sense from a character standpoint that she was able to prepare herself for that moment.

[00:49:37] And then, you know, with that quick action.

[00:49:38] And so, yeah, that seemed good for Jen's character.

[00:49:41] I know we've been like, what's Jen's deal all season?

[00:49:44] It's like, okay, well, you know, she's a tough one.

[00:49:47] And if she's still immune to the nano virus, then there's something there in terms of plot lines that they can play with going forward in season two.

[00:49:57] Yep.

[00:49:57] Yep.

[00:49:58] Yeah, and we get a new sector of the faithful, Emmeline.

[00:50:03] Led by Emmeline, we've seen that being set up.

[00:50:06] And now she's like, we must band together in the faith.

[00:50:08] And now we have Lila, who we know is possessed, basically, by Dorothea.

[00:50:14] So I'm going to call her Lila Teya.

[00:50:18] Okay.

[00:50:18] Good one.

[00:50:19] Good point, man, too.

[00:50:20] So Lila Teya comes in and she's like, I need to speak.

[00:50:24] And she name drops these sister Esther Cano, Avamar, Jesse.

[00:50:27] And we find out that these are the Butlerian sisters.

[00:50:31] So these were the, you know, the zealots basically under Dorothea.

[00:50:35] And she hears that they disbanded after Dorothea's suicide.

[00:50:41] Apparently that's what Emmeline heard.

[00:50:44] And then we find out, you know, Lila Teya goes looking for her.

[00:50:48] And we find out that Valia, presumably, erased all records of these people in the system.

[00:50:53] So my question is, how does Emmeline know about them then?

[00:51:00] Yeah.

[00:51:02] Yeah, because she says she's doing research.

[00:51:04] Yeah, no, that's a little hand wavy, isn't it?

[00:51:05] It feels a little hand wavy.

[00:51:07] I don't know.

[00:51:08] Yeah.

[00:51:08] I don't know how to square that circle.

[00:51:10] Yeah.

[00:51:11] Just that we know that Emmeline is oriented, you know, orienting more that way.

[00:51:17] So yeah, what research, what was available to her in terms of the HR records for the sisterhood at that stage?

[00:51:25] I don't know.

[00:51:26] Right.

[00:51:26] Yeah.

[00:51:27] That's a big question mark.

[00:51:29] But clearly the mirroring right between Dorothea and Emily, you know, and then this cadre with Lila.

[00:51:36] Right.

[00:51:37] Emmeline, Theo, and there was one more, wasn't there?

[00:51:43] Am I missing somebody?

[00:51:44] Wait, Theo wasn't there, right?

[00:51:45] No, but they were as a little group.

[00:51:49] And then they were using that group to mirror the Dorothea faction and then the Valia and with Francesca and Tula and Kasia.

[00:51:58] Like all these little knots of sisters.

[00:52:01] Right.

[00:52:02] Right.

[00:52:02] Little knots of conspiracy.

[00:52:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:05] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:06] And speaking of which, we get a flashback where young Valia's gang is trying to unite with Dorothea's crew, but then unite in a Valia kind of way where she's like, all right, you join me or kill yourselves.

[00:52:18] And so she voices at them.

[00:52:21] No, I can't do it.

[00:52:22] She uses the voice on them and says, choose.

[00:52:27] And Avila is the only one who chooses Valia.

[00:52:30] And Tula sheds a tear watching this and all the rest are dead.

[00:52:36] So we finally get some backstory for Avila, right?

[00:52:39] We've been trying to figure out what her deal is all season.

[00:52:42] At least they gave her a credible story.

[00:52:46] I'm glad that there's something behind Avila's character now that, you know, whether you agree with it or not, whatever, it's like, oh, okay.

[00:52:53] She was there at this moment where, you know, things were pretty ugly.

[00:52:56] So, and I could see how that would be playing out with her character later on.

[00:53:03] Like being loyal, but also like, man, this is really messed up.

[00:53:06] But I promise to be loyal.

[00:53:08] So, you know, I got to deal with it.

[00:53:11] So that all sort of makes sense.

[00:53:16] Without being negative, I do have to, as a person who prefers the Frank Herbert original six books, I, you know, they've made a choice on how they're going to deal with the voice.

[00:53:31] And it is, this breaks canon.

[00:53:34] This very much breaks canon.

[00:53:36] Breaks canon for the Brian Herbert books, too.

[00:53:38] So let's stop pretending.

[00:53:39] Because I'm hearing, I'm also hearing on our friends that do Minute Podcast a lot of like, oh, would Brian Herbert stuff break canon?

[00:53:46] No, this show breaks canon.

[00:53:48] This is not canon with any of the books.

[00:53:50] So whichever books you prefer, this is doing its own thing.

[00:53:53] And I haven't read a lot of the Brian Herbert stuff.

[00:53:56] So, yeah, I want to be careful about where I speak to.

[00:53:59] And, yeah, it's, the voice is something that was developed.

[00:54:03] It's a psychological tool.

[00:54:04] It's not a magic tool.

[00:54:06] And so it was developed over a long, long time.

[00:54:10] And interestingly enough, there's a quick side, an aside here.

[00:54:13] There's a lot of conversation around like, why 10,000 years?

[00:54:17] And shouldn't there be more development?

[00:54:19] And why is this looks like, I'm actually working on a blog post right now.

[00:54:22] I've been doing some thinking and a little bit of light research.

[00:54:25] And I have some opinions about why the 10,000 year timeframe makes sense.

[00:54:31] And I've been noodling.

[00:54:33] I've got an introduction ready to go.

[00:54:35] And I'm working on my sort of arguments or like, you know, what my opinions are.

[00:54:40] And I hope to have that up on our website, on our blog section of our website.

[00:54:46] At least by the time we do the Dune Minute Podcast, if not before that.

[00:54:50] So it just depends on how much time I have for the thing.

[00:54:53] But I think there is some things that make sense around the 10,000 year time spans.

[00:54:58] And that's one of the things with the voice is, the voice is developed over a very long period of time.

[00:55:05] And finally, and very, very finely tuned.

[00:55:08] And there's very specific skill and technique behind it.

[00:55:11] Where in the show, they've made a choice.

[00:55:13] It's their choice.

[00:55:14] Otherwise, it's a little bit more of some sort of naturally occurring phenomena that Valya discovered accidentally.

[00:55:22] So, okay.

[00:55:23] You know, I get it.

[00:55:24] That's a choice.

[00:55:25] And that's fine.

[00:55:26] It just breaks canon.

[00:55:27] It just, it gives this feeling like she just reached inside herself in a moment of desperation and found it in that moment.

[00:55:35] Which, yeah.

[00:55:36] It's just a lot of shortcuts being taken here.

[00:55:38] Which, again, goes back to what I'm saying, that feeling like things are missing.

[00:55:42] Yeah.

[00:55:42] Yeah, yeah.

[00:55:43] Yeah.

[00:55:43] I don't disagree.

[00:55:45] So, okay.

[00:55:46] Back in the present, Lila Trea, Lila Tea, sorry, takes out the grate.

[00:55:53] And a waterfall starts pouring out of the cliff on Wallach 9.

[00:55:59] And it clears that eye-shaped pool we've been seeing all season to reveal the bodies of the Slain Sisters at the bottom.

[00:56:06] I do have questions, though, about like, how did she know to look there?

[00:56:10] Mm-hmm.

[00:56:11] Mm-hmm.

[00:56:12] How memories work and all of that kind of stuff.

[00:56:14] Yeah.

[00:56:15] That's a good question.

[00:56:16] Right.

[00:56:16] Because she went right to that machine that would then open it up.

[00:56:19] And she was like, yeah, this place is more than you realize.

[00:56:22] So.

[00:56:23] Right.

[00:56:23] I did notice that in the shots, in the time jump shots, that central courtyard looks very different.

[00:56:30] There isn't a lot of moss growing around.

[00:56:32] It's cleaner.

[00:56:33] It seems newer.

[00:56:34] And then versus the time.

[00:56:35] So, you know, there's a lot of visual cues.

[00:56:37] Production design is on point.

[00:56:39] Woof.

[00:56:39] Man, I'm telling you.

[00:56:40] And I know you posted a video in the Discord about something in the show.

[00:56:44] I haven't had a chance to watch it yet.

[00:56:46] But I think you said that it has some architectural details about how they designed the show.

[00:56:51] Yeah.

[00:56:52] So there was, I think this was on the HBO YouTube or something like that.

[00:56:57] And it's, they were talking to the production designers and showrunner, not the showrunner

[00:57:02] actually, but the production designer.

[00:57:03] And so they said that Seleucus Secundus was at least inspired by Greco-Roman architecture.

[00:57:10] But of course, a lot of people are pushing back on that saying, I don't know that I see it.

[00:57:15] I think it's more like brutalist art deco personally.

[00:57:20] But I'm not the production.

[00:57:23] But it looks great.

[00:57:24] It does look great.

[00:57:25] It does look great.

[00:57:26] Whatever the inspirations are.

[00:57:28] I'm sure it's a mishmash of inspirations.

[00:57:29] Yeah.

[00:57:30] Yeah.

[00:57:31] And yeah.

[00:57:32] Okay.

[00:57:32] So then Lilatea, I can say this.

[00:57:38] Lilatea leads the whole sisterhood into apparently the poorly guarded secret Ina Rule room and

[00:57:45] destroys the machine.

[00:57:47] Mm.

[00:57:47] Yeah.

[00:57:49] Which, you know, are the data banks safe?

[00:57:52] You know, maybe you took out the CPU, but like the records are still there.

[00:57:55] Like obviously there has to be something that is being recovered.

[00:57:59] And then if that then crosses over with, you know, Mentats, because we know that you

[00:58:07] can dual class, if you want to use a Dungeons and Dragons analogy, you can take a little bit

[00:58:13] of Mentat along with your little bit of sisterhood and you can, and we know that the sisters do

[00:58:17] have Mentats in their ranks.

[00:58:19] And so, you know, does that open in the door then for the Mentats having to come in and

[00:58:25] resurrect the breeding index program?

[00:58:28] Mm.

[00:58:28] Or does it open the door for a certain AI who the Mentats were using, who may be part of

[00:58:36] what we saw in the flashbacks or in the visions?

[00:58:40] Yeah.

[00:58:41] Yeah.

[00:58:41] There was a very, yeah, a very quick scene with Harrow Harkin in there.

[00:58:45] We're like, what is that?

[00:58:46] Oh, that too.

[00:58:47] That too.

[00:58:47] Yeah.

[00:58:47] Major season two, like, hey, here's this giant plot point.

[00:58:52] We were just going to drop this 10 seconds, Edward Davis moment for you.

[00:58:56] Thank you.

[00:58:57] I'll take it.

[00:59:01] Yeah.

[00:59:01] So that brings us to what I found the saddest thing, the death of an emperor.

[00:59:06] Mm-hmm.

[00:59:07] And Javiko, he says to Francesca, you know, they have their last, it is poignant to think

[00:59:13] about.

[00:59:13] This was their last time together.

[00:59:15] They were lounging in bed, which my sister just told me is called Hercule Durkling.

[00:59:20] Well, they're not lounging in bed sexually, but just staying in bed.

[00:59:23] I've never heard of that term.

[00:59:24] Apparently it's, yeah, she says it's on social media, but not blue sky because that's where

[00:59:28] you and I are.

[00:59:29] Right.

[00:59:31] Okay.

[00:59:31] Hercule Durkling.

[00:59:32] I like it.

[00:59:34] But yeah.

[00:59:35] And he says to Francesca, Natalia knows about us.

[00:59:37] I think she'd be relieved to end the charade.

[00:59:40] Like you do not know your wife for a second.

[00:59:44] And then we get some more lore building around this idea of imprinting and that, you know,

[00:59:50] he can't harm her because of the imprinting.

[00:59:53] But it seems like she has feelings for him as well in some degree or fashion.

[01:00:00] She's not, she's, you know, a lot of times you could think of the imprinter relating to

[01:00:08] the imprintee as this is a job and assignment as they use the words in the show and that

[01:00:14] the feelings are, are not true or deep, you know, for the other person.

[01:00:20] But it really does feel like Francesca has feelings for him.

[01:00:23] I agree.

[01:00:24] I agree.

[01:00:25] But it's not for Inez because she's like, she says to Valia, she's like, oh, let's exploit

[01:00:31] Inez's danger for our benefit.

[01:00:33] Like, damn.

[01:00:33] But then when Valia wants Francesca to kill Havico, then Francesca is like, not too keen

[01:00:41] on it.

[01:00:41] And Valia says Havico's reign is over and he can't divorce without risking war.

[01:00:47] She says, he's the father of my son.

[01:00:49] And she says, I'm sorry, but you knew this day might come.

[01:00:54] And she hands her a needle coated in metacyanide to use on him.

[01:01:00] Um, they don't call it a gom jabbar, but that's definitely what it is.

[01:01:04] Right?

[01:01:05] Well, a gom jabbar is not a specific weapon.

[01:01:09] It's a term of arts, if you will.

[01:01:12] It's the high handed enemy.

[01:01:14] It's the, uh,

[01:01:16] Specifically the needle with the metacyanide on it.

[01:01:19] Right.

[01:01:20] But it's the, the, it's actually the, the weapon, the, the needle itself.

[01:01:26] Isn't that they, in the movie, they call it a gom jabbar, but.

[01:01:30] But in the books they do too.

[01:01:32] Yeah.

[01:01:32] But it's actually, it's actually not specific to a weapon.

[01:01:36] It's specific.

[01:01:37] It's, it is a, um, the high handed enemy is anything that if I've got power over you,

[01:01:44] then I can be, I'm, I'm the gom jabbar.

[01:01:46] The Bene Gesserit consider themselves the gom jabbar to humanity.

[01:01:49] They keep humanity on the edge, moving forward in a particular direction.

[01:01:54] And so.

[01:01:56] Can you.

[01:01:57] Okay.

[01:01:57] Like, where did you, where do you get that from?

[01:01:59] Because I've only ever heard it that I can think of referring to this specific needle with

[01:02:04] this specific, um, cyanide on it.

[01:02:07] Uh, I'd have to pull up the, yeah, I don't know, but it is the high handed enemy is not

[01:02:12] just the weapon.

[01:02:13] It's a.

[01:02:13] Okay.

[01:02:14] It's, it's like, I've got power over you.

[01:02:16] All right.

[01:02:17] In a way that is a deadly.

[01:02:19] Okay.

[01:02:19] I have a different understanding of it, but we can pick that up another time.

[01:02:23] But from my understanding, it's the needle specifically, but anyway, they, they don't

[01:02:26] call it that.

[01:02:27] Uh, but it's the same thing that we see being used on or held against Paul's neck.

[01:02:33] Right.

[01:02:33] In the first book slash movie.

[01:02:35] So, and that is a very specific, uh, visual reference to the Villeneuve, uh, choice.

[01:02:41] The, the choices that Denis Villeneuve used in Dune part one was the, the design of that

[01:02:46] needle.

[01:02:47] Cause obviously in the 84 movie, we have a different design, which is like a finger cap

[01:02:52] with a little needle on it.

[01:02:53] So, which is more like the, the tranquilizer needle that, uh, Lila uses against Jen.

[01:03:00] Uh, Lila Taya uses against Jen and more of that design.

[01:03:04] But anyway, that's a visual choice that they, you know, have used and used.

[01:03:08] And it's also, I believe on the mother superior, uh, signet ring is kind of an Ouroboros with

[01:03:20] a gomjabar needle through the middle of it.

[01:03:23] If I, if I'm remembering correctly what the design looks like.

[01:03:27] So I wonder why they didn't just design.

[01:03:30] Yeah.

[01:03:31] I mean, they called the episode, the high handed enemy, but I wonder why they never used

[01:03:34] the words gomjabar.

[01:03:36] They never used the words, but Larry and jihad.

[01:03:39] So, but that one, I figured they were avoiding saying jihad.

[01:03:43] Jihad.

[01:03:43] Yeah, that's true.

[01:03:44] So yeah.

[01:03:44] But yeah, the, the, the, the high handed enemy.

[01:03:47] Yeah.

[01:03:47] Gomjabar.

[01:03:48] That's what that word means.

[01:03:49] Yeah.

[01:03:49] And they don't connect it for people who don't know to what that title means, but yeah.

[01:03:54] Right.

[01:03:54] Right.

[01:03:55] Um, yeah, I was just like, I was incredulous with Desmond for, I was like, Desmond, you

[01:04:01] really thought that Havico would put you above his own daughter?

[01:04:06] I just feel like there's a general inconsistency in relationships in this show.

[01:04:09] Like I'm, I get, yeah.

[01:04:12] Yeah.

[01:04:12] Dude, you're a, you're a, you're a military advisor and leader.

[01:04:15] You're not my, yeah, you're not my blood.

[01:04:17] You're not my kin.

[01:04:18] Right.

[01:04:18] So right.

[01:04:19] In line.

[01:04:20] Right.

[01:04:21] And did we know Havico wanted to send Natalia away.

[01:04:23] Did they ever say where it was just, he was like, I thought you wanted to be more involved.

[01:04:28] She's like, you tried to send me away.

[01:04:30] He's like, I thought you wouldn't be more involved with the Imperium.

[01:04:32] So I feel like they cut a scene where he asks her to, or then she says, I didn't even find

[01:04:38] out from you.

[01:04:39] So I feel like there's a scene cut somewhere where she finds out he wants to make her a,

[01:04:45] uh, an ambassador or something.

[01:04:46] I don't know.

[01:04:48] Well, and it would be a little consistent given that, you know, um, this idea of, uh,

[01:04:54] keeping your kids safe.

[01:04:56] I mean, the, um, the Richese daughter, I forget her name and, uh, son when she says, when she's

[01:05:02] with, um, with, uh, what's his name?

[01:05:05] Yeah.

[01:05:06] With Constantine.

[01:05:07] Yeah.

[01:05:07] Constantine.

[01:05:08] Thank you.

[01:05:08] Uh, she says, oh, he kept us apart.

[01:05:11] Right.

[01:05:11] And he, I was on this planet and my brother was on the other planet.

[01:05:14] Uh, and obviously if, if Natalia had been captured and ransomed at once at some point

[01:05:20] as well, you know, do you, do you remove your, them out of a line of danger?

[01:05:25] Which, yeah, I don't know.

[01:05:26] It, it, it doesn't not compute, I guess.

[01:05:30] Yeah.

[01:05:32] Well, so now Natalia and Desmond are both mad at Havigo and getting up on him together.

[01:05:38] And Natalia wants to convince everyone that the sisterhood is behind the planned assassination

[01:05:43] that they thwarted at the Lanzarad meeting.

[01:05:47] Um, but we have Francesca is, I can't decide if Francesca was being a wild card here and

[01:05:55] Valia really didn't predict that she would, uh, tell him about the needle or if Valia somehow

[01:06:03] planned for this to happen.

[01:06:05] And if so, to what ends?

[01:06:06] Mm-hmm.

[01:06:07] But basically, yeah, Francesca tells Havigo about the needle and, um, I don't know why

[01:06:13] would Valia lie and say Francesca never loved him.

[01:06:16] And then in this moment, yeah, she tells him about the needle, but, and she says that the

[01:06:20] imprint won't let Havigo hurt him.

[01:06:23] So he's like, I have to control something and stabs himself.

[01:06:25] I was very confused about why he thought that that was the best thing to do at that moment

[01:06:31] is kill himself.

[01:06:33] Yeah.

[01:06:35] It's, they, I guess they didn't do enough for me in that regard of him feeling degraded as

[01:06:45] a leader and as an individual enough to then do that drastic course of action.

[01:06:51] Like they didn't, there wasn't enough erosion of his self, a sense of self to go there for me

[01:06:57] for it.

[01:06:57] So yeah, it felt a little out of place.

[01:06:59] Yeah.

[01:07:01] Hmm.

[01:07:02] Well, and then Natalia takes the needle and kills Francesca with it.

[01:07:07] And, uh, and then, yeah.

[01:07:09] And Francesca dies immediately because it was meant to kill, you know, quickly.

[01:07:15] And Havigo dies slowly, painfully under his wife's scornful eyes.

[01:07:20] And his wife's like, well, I guess I can put her hand on the needle and blame the sisterhood

[01:07:24] after all.

[01:07:25] So take out my mistress in one shot.

[01:07:28] So.

[01:07:28] And doesn't she go running off and saying, oh, the emperor, the emperor.

[01:07:32] Yeah.

[01:07:33] But I feel, I feel most sad for Havigo, but anyway.

[01:07:36] Yeah.

[01:07:37] Yeah.

[01:07:37] Poor one out for Mark Strong and Havigo.

[01:07:40] He did a great job really playing a, you know, this, this, uh, leader who's trying to

[01:07:45] protect strength, but also constantly plagued by this sense of weakness.

[01:07:50] Yeah.

[01:07:50] That the very subtle thing to do.

[01:07:52] And I thought he did a really good job with that.

[01:07:54] So.

[01:07:54] Yeah.

[01:07:55] Question in, in sort of terms of canon and lore, the metasianide killed Francesca so quickly,

[01:08:04] but as a sister, wouldn't she have been able to, and a reverend mother to transmute the poison

[01:08:12] or did the poison just, she wasn't expecting it.

[01:08:14] And it just acted so fastly, so quickly.

[01:08:16] Can Bene Gesserit transmute metasianide?

[01:08:19] I don't know.

[01:08:20] That's a, that's what I'm asking.

[01:08:21] They can transmute a lot of things, but can they, you know, could they do that?

[01:08:25] That's a question.

[01:08:27] You would think that I would think for me, if I were the, uh, in the operations directorate,

[01:08:33] you know, and I deployed my agents with a, you know, particular poison, I'd make sure

[01:08:38] that my agent, uh, had the ability to, uh, you know, if that tool was used against them,

[01:08:46] that they would be okay.

[01:08:47] Right.

[01:08:47] Like, so.

[01:08:48] Yeah.

[01:08:49] Anyway, I'm overthinking it.

[01:08:50] It wouldn't make sense.

[01:08:51] But yeah.

[01:08:51] Yeah.

[01:08:53] I guess, I guess they can't, or at least not yet.

[01:08:55] Maybe in 10,000 years.

[01:08:57] Maybe, maybe 10,000 years indeed.

[01:08:59] All right.

[01:09:00] So let's move on to the final collection of scenes that basically end this season and

[01:09:05] definitely set up a season two.

[01:09:07] So it's a good thing they told us there's going to be one.

[01:09:09] Um, we find that, yeah, Desmond can send visions to, we see him do that to Valia.

[01:09:16] So that's where I interpolated that, that must be what the viral, um, nightmares are about

[01:09:22] and Valia collapses.

[01:09:24] Big question marks there, right?

[01:09:25] Yeah.

[01:09:25] Anyway, sorry, carry on.

[01:09:26] Yeah.

[01:09:27] Valia collapses with those burns.

[01:09:29] Uh, and you know, this is where Tula, Tula has at some point snuck off from Wallach 9.

[01:09:34] And there was also weird editing here where they talked about Tula having disappeared

[01:09:39] before we see her actually take off from the planet.

[01:09:42] So it's where I'm like, okay, the editing sloppy.

[01:09:44] That's why we feel like it's jetpacking more than it necessarily means to.

[01:09:49] Um, and she arrives just in time.

[01:09:51] She arrives just in time.

[01:09:52] Of course.

[01:09:52] No, I can accept that.

[01:09:54] But she, uh, I guess, do you think Tula left to help Desmond?

[01:09:58] Do you think that was her goal?

[01:10:01] Well, I think it's a perfect, uh, heart in conflict with itself moment.

[01:10:04] Isn't it?

[01:10:05] Her sister and her son.

[01:10:06] Right.

[01:10:07] So yeah, I think it's all of the above.

[01:10:10] Answer D, all of the above.

[01:10:11] Okay.

[01:10:12] Well, yeah, she sees, she comes and finds both her sister and her son on the ground and she

[01:10:17] runs to her sister first.

[01:10:18] So Valia can feel good about that, but she won't because she's Valia.

[01:10:22] Um, but she's coaching Valia through, as you were saying earlier, like, you know, you

[01:10:26] can't fight the machines like you would fight the Rosak poison basically.

[01:10:31] So, um,

[01:10:33] I'm glad you pointed that out.

[01:10:34] Cause that was a confused.

[01:10:35] That was a point of confusion for me after watching the episode.

[01:10:37] Like, wait, how is this working?

[01:10:39] But that makes sense now that it's a machine and not biological.

[01:10:42] Right.

[01:10:43] So your, your active measures or your defenses would be, uh, you need to tailor them differently.

[01:10:48] So that, that, that answers a bunch of questions for me.

[01:10:52] Yeah.

[01:10:52] It's not something you can just absorb into yourself because it's not natural or I guess

[01:10:56] it's a, yeah.

[01:10:57] Yeah.

[01:10:57] You can't transmute it.

[01:10:58] They're machines.

[01:10:59] It's not transmutable.

[01:11:01] Right.

[01:11:02] Right.

[01:11:02] But this is also where Valia, even though her sister runs to her first, now Valia knows

[01:11:07] that her sister is not her creature completely.

[01:11:09] And this is where she finds out that she lied about Desmond keeping him from her because,

[01:11:13] um, because Tula is like, no, you can't kill my son.

[01:11:17] And she's like, your son.

[01:11:18] Yeah.

[01:11:20] Yeah.

[01:11:20] And Valia says Tula handed her son to her enemies, um, by, you know, taking him away

[01:11:26] from Valia and setting him off.

[01:11:27] Do you agree?

[01:11:29] It took a lot of research by some buddies, some, you know, that whoever the, the others

[01:11:36] are to identify Desmond and then how to convince, like, did, did he, how?

[01:11:48] Yeah.

[01:11:49] Okay.

[01:11:50] So, so how did they, whoever that was, how did they recover him?

[01:11:55] How do you recover a body from a worm strike like that?

[01:11:58] Yeah.

[01:11:59] There's a lot, a lot of questions here.

[01:12:01] I really don't know.

[01:12:02] I, I buy the fact that somebody is pissed off at the, at the sisterhood and they're searching

[01:12:08] and searching for an angle, some way to, to go at them, maybe even more than one way to

[01:12:14] go at them.

[01:12:14] And at some point they stumbled across this clue that then led them, you know, some clues

[01:12:20] that led them ultimately to Desmond, but then how to turn Desmond into their tool.

[01:12:25] Yeah.

[01:12:25] Big question.

[01:12:27] I mean, so since Desmond's from Balut, we do know from lore, it hasn't been said in the

[01:12:32] show, but from, uh, lore that's already out there that the Tleilaxans did, um, they

[01:12:40] scourged Balut and took human slaves there basically, uh, to, to experiment on, I suppose.

[01:12:47] So, um, that it must be how they first came into his sights, but then have they maybe been

[01:12:53] controlling him forever?

[01:12:54] You know, like when he, before he went to, um, before he joined, yeah.

[01:13:01] Before he joined the emperor's army and went to Arrakis.

[01:13:04] You know, that actually would make the most sense as we're talking about it now, that seems

[01:13:09] logical, right?

[01:13:10] That they, they took him when he was a baby and this whole time he has been whatever creature,

[01:13:15] uh, that, uh, that they have assuming that's the Tleilaxans, um, that, that he has been.

[01:13:24] And then this is just a long con.

[01:13:26] This is just a long, long game and they've been building up.

[01:13:30] And then at some point they were like, okay, now's the moment that we need to deploy this,

[01:13:35] uh, the stratagem.

[01:13:37] And so then they flipped a switch in his brain and had him get killed by the worm.

[01:13:44] So, or, or maybe that's a fake, maybe that's fake news.

[01:13:47] You know, that video.

[01:13:49] And then, or I, I don't know, like a big question marks there, but anyway, that, that,

[01:13:54] that they use that, that as a set up so that then Desmond can walk into the, uh, palace

[01:14:01] and go, Hey, I'm, I'm this like really wild, cool thing.

[01:14:05] And that they've tailored him to fit into Natalia's vision of, um, of, uh, oh, you're

[01:14:12] chosen by Shia Lude and you know, all this stuff.

[01:14:15] So yeah, that could, that kind of makes sense that he's a long con, you know, that they've

[01:14:18] built him up to be a long con.

[01:14:20] Yeah.

[01:14:20] Yeah.

[01:14:22] Yeah.

[01:14:23] And so we, we get, um, it seems like, okay, so we definitely had Valia experiencing Desmond's

[01:14:29] visions, but also they were mixing with her own visions because we also see her flashback

[01:14:34] to that moment where she was young and we see, you know, she said she commanded Griffin

[01:14:39] to swim and it turns out, okay.

[01:14:42] So this is all completely different from the books, but I, um, yeah, just to, I'm, I'm,

[01:14:47] you know, just to point that out.

[01:14:48] Yeah.

[01:14:48] Just flag it.

[01:14:49] Um, but she's commanding Griffin to swim, but it's under the ice.

[01:14:55] So Griff, she pulls Griffin out, but is that, that's the moment he died.

[01:14:59] Am I understanding that correctly?

[01:15:01] I think it's a, a hybrid vision because obviously the swirling snow particles are what they visually

[01:15:09] set up for us with, uh, what was the doctor's name?

[01:15:13] Yeah.

[01:15:13] Yeah.

[01:15:14] With Nazir.

[01:15:15] Yeah.

[01:15:15] Nazir.

[01:15:15] Yeah.

[01:15:16] Thank you.

[01:15:16] With Nazir.

[01:15:17] And so it's a, and of course that's the very opening shot of this season with that quote

[01:15:23] about, you know, uh, you know, victory and, you know, in the light, in the dark, and we

[01:15:28] get all those sort of particles swirling around, which I had interpreted as embers, but they

[01:15:32] also are visually speaking to spice, right?

[01:15:35] The floating sort of spice particles, which we see in the Villeneuve movies, but then now

[01:15:40] we have it tied in those floating particles to the scourge, the omnia scourge or whatever

[01:15:47] this virus is.

[01:15:50] So to me, it was more, it wasn't more of a, a, a literal, uh, flashback, but it was more

[01:15:58] of a, um, her struggle is coming back in a partially formed memory.

[01:16:04] So we're getting this, this drama of this deeper drama of Valia and her feelings, her

[01:16:11] feelings of loss and regret and everything around her brother.

[01:16:15] So it's just kind of a big visual stew for me.

[01:16:18] Yeah.

[01:16:18] Yeah.

[01:16:19] And then we also see, we see her standing like on this vision, obviously it takes place

[01:16:23] on Lankafile, their ice planet.

[01:16:25] And then she says, I see the worm coming.

[01:16:28] She sees him coming and the worms coming and, uh, it transitions with the, there's like the

[01:16:33] swirling snow mixed with these black particles.

[01:16:36] And then it's transitioning to the sand mixed with the spice and she's standing on Arrakis.

[01:16:41] Yeah.

[01:16:42] No.

[01:16:43] So, yeah, I don't know.

[01:16:45] There, it's a lot of setup for future, right?

[01:16:47] Right.

[01:16:48] Yeah.

[01:16:49] And then we get the biggest piece of setup.

[01:16:51] So those blue eyes we've been seeing in the sky.

[01:16:54] Indeed, there's a mechanical thing and they're not actually blue eyes.

[01:16:57] Four lights.

[01:16:58] Sorry.

[01:16:59] I had to do my stuff track.

[01:17:01] But it's the, it's the, yeah, yeah.

[01:17:03] I'm playing.

[01:17:04] I'm having a play with it.

[01:17:05] I know.

[01:17:06] Um, I still don't, I don't get the reference.

[01:17:08] I haven't watched it.

[01:17:08] Is this from the original movie?

[01:17:10] Uh, Star Trek, the next generation, uh, Captain Picard is, um, taken captive and the torture

[01:17:17] that he is put under involves, uh, convincing him to look at a series of lights and say that

[01:17:24] there's only two lights as opposed to four lights as a marker that they've psychologically

[01:17:28] broken him.

[01:17:29] So if he can, spoilers for a long, there's a lot to that episode.

[01:17:35] So it's like, I don't even need to, this, this isn't like spoiler really.

[01:17:38] Yeah.

[01:17:38] But basically they're trying, you know, can you convince another person to look at an

[01:17:44] objectively, uh, verifiable fact and then say that something that's different about

[01:17:49] it as a measure of psychological control over that person, kind of a Manchurian candidate

[01:17:55] sort of, uh, uh, style, um, torture and control.

[01:18:00] Well, in, in real life studies, they find that most people, the only thing you need to do

[01:18:05] to get people to say something they don't believe is true is to have everyone else in the room

[01:18:10] say it.

[01:18:11] And then people will be like, we'll look at lines and be like, one is objectively longer,

[01:18:16] but they'll be like, no, the one that the other said is the longest is the longest, you

[01:18:21] know?

[01:18:21] That's really interesting because isn't social media just a giant echo chamber of that?

[01:18:25] That's how we can bend.

[01:18:26] Anyway, let's not get into the political landscape, but that's really interesting.

[01:18:30] I actually think that's really interesting that you point that out.

[01:18:32] I didn't, I didn't realize that, but yeah, we're social creatures, right?

[01:18:36] And so if you control the social environment as opposed to the individual, yeah, that's

[01:18:40] really interesting.

[01:18:41] Okay.

[01:18:41] Yeah.

[01:18:42] Well, that's how, uh, yeah, that's how dangerous things happen.

[01:18:46] Yep.

[01:18:47] Indeed.

[01:18:47] Indeed.

[01:18:48] Well, but to quote the spice girls, when two become one, we have two blue eyes that we eventually

[01:18:55] it's like, is actually kind of like a blurred vision is just one big blue eye in the face

[01:19:01] of a machine.

[01:19:02] We'll have a very brief discussion about this after the credits.

[01:19:06] Because it involves spoilers for both the XD books and the end of the original series.

[01:19:13] Biting my tongue about all of this.

[01:19:16] Anyway, machines.

[01:19:17] Yes.

[01:19:17] Yes.

[01:19:18] But so it's a machine that's, uh, operating on Desmond's eye and they actually, there's

[01:19:22] kind of a cool gnarly effect.

[01:19:24] They have, you can see the eye pulled out so they can do whatever they're doing to it.

[01:19:28] Yeah.

[01:19:28] Um, but my question is, is he a Gola or not?

[01:19:32] We still don't know.

[01:19:34] Yeah.

[01:19:34] No, I, uh, uh, I don't think he is, but did they do more augmentation?

[01:19:40] Hmm.

[01:19:41] Is there more beyond just the eye?

[01:19:43] Because obviously he got stabbed in the gut and he's, you know, 12 tours on Arrakis and

[01:19:48] all this kind of stuff.

[01:19:49] Right.

[01:19:50] You know, he's, and I, you know, it even makes more sense that they would, he's a setup as

[01:19:53] a long con because 12 tours of a racket on Arrakis from what Havico says in episode one,

[01:20:00] I believe.

[01:20:01] He should have survived.

[01:20:02] Yeah.

[01:20:03] That is, that is a major accomplishment.

[01:20:06] Nobody, right.

[01:20:07] Goes that long.

[01:20:08] So he, it's, it's designed to impress Havico.

[01:20:13] And so, um, so building up Desmond in that way, that makes sense at least, you know, from

[01:20:19] a theory crafting point of that.

[01:20:22] So yeah, there's gotta, I'm, I'm assuming that there's more to Desmond than just the

[01:20:26] eye, but they needed to reveal the eye for obvious reasons.

[01:20:30] Well, because that's, that's my question is, um, Nazir when she, she's like the eye or

[01:20:35] it was in Nazir.

[01:20:35] Anyway, somebody says the eye is the virus.

[01:20:37] So I'm like, well, did just cut out the eye and be done with it?

[01:20:40] Or maybe Navalya said that, but it's like, okay, then you don't have to kill him.

[01:20:44] Just take out that eye.

[01:20:46] Give him a new one.

[01:20:48] Yeah.

[01:20:49] It's weird.

[01:20:50] I don't know.

[01:20:50] Yeah.

[01:20:50] I don't know.

[01:20:51] So anyway, it's yeah.

[01:20:53] One, one light instead of two.

[01:20:55] Right.

[01:20:56] Oh, and I was wrong.

[01:20:57] Theodosia is not alone in the jail because Desmond commands his mother be arrested.

[01:21:02] So he sees, he sees his mother save him.

[01:21:05] And maybe that's why he doesn't kill her on the spot, but he's like arrest her.

[01:21:09] Don't add us.

[01:21:10] Yeah.

[01:21:11] Clearly we got, we got that there.

[01:21:13] So we have a good, good plot device for future, right?

[01:21:16] If the two, if Desmond and Tula and Theodosia are all, yeah, all three together, there's

[01:21:25] some potential, potential dramatic tension there.

[01:21:28] Yeah.

[01:21:29] Mm-hmm.

[01:21:30] Yeah.

[01:21:30] And then that's where we get this, we get this little quick insert with Harrow and that

[01:21:35] there's like this substance all over the walls.

[01:21:37] It almost looks like it might be bugs crawling or something, but then it pulls together these

[01:21:41] particles.

[01:21:42] So it must be in the nanoparticles.

[01:21:43] And it creates that ball that we saw Desmond give Harrow in the last episode.

[01:21:48] And yes, it seems that it is indeed a video recording device.

[01:21:52] And he's been recording everything, all of Valia's machinations.

[01:21:56] Dun, dun, dun.

[01:21:57] Mm-hmm.

[01:21:58] He's got tools now over his aunt.

[01:22:01] And they kept showing us that relief, that graphic or that poster, you know, whatever that

[01:22:08] design in it.

[01:22:09] I get that it's supposed to be Lankybel and like a whale carcass on the shore.

[01:22:15] Mm-hmm.

[01:22:15] That's the way I'm interpreting it, but it's a weirdly abstract in some ways.

[01:22:19] I thought it might be a fossil or something.

[01:22:21] I don't know.

[01:22:22] Yeah.

[01:22:22] Yeah.

[01:22:23] No, it seemed to me more like one of those relief murals, like, you know, sort of a 3D

[01:22:29] carved piece of art.

[01:22:31] Mm-hmm.

[01:22:31] And then there's a little blob in the middle there.

[01:22:34] And I was kind of taking that as a whale carcass on the surface, like, hey, this is our

[01:22:40] roots, right?

[01:22:40] You know, we're from, this is who we are and this is how we've built ourselves.

[01:22:44] We're built ourselves up to this point.

[01:22:45] That's the way I was, I was going with it.

[01:22:47] But anyway, yeah.

[01:22:48] Weird thinking machine technology.

[01:22:50] Like I thought at first it was, I was going with the idea that it was these, one of these

[01:22:55] AI consciousnesses that you were talking about, which would have been very Westworldly as

[01:23:01] well, right?

[01:23:01] Right.

[01:23:01] Because there's marbles for the, for the CPU as it were.

[01:23:05] Well, but it is what they do in the, in the books, in the prequels.

[01:23:10] Right.

[01:23:10] Which you mentioned the last podcast, so.

[01:23:12] Yeah.

[01:23:12] Um, so yeah, I don't, I don't know.

[01:23:14] I mean, I guess just because it is a video recording device doesn't mean there's not more

[01:23:18] to it.

[01:23:18] It is.

[01:23:19] There's obviously some sort of artificial intelligence, I guess.

[01:23:22] I don't know.

[01:23:23] We don't really know.

[01:23:23] We don't know.

[01:23:25] Cool effect though.

[01:23:26] It was cool to watch the thing coalesce back together.

[01:23:29] And it was cool to see the way that the playback happened.

[01:23:32] I thought that was all, again, visual design is on point.

[01:23:36] So.

[01:23:36] Right.

[01:23:37] Right.

[01:23:38] But Valia is not there to, for him to do anything to her at the present because she,

[01:23:43] Inez and Kieran, which is, I love the fact that Valia and Kieran are together.

[01:23:47] I like, I'm, I'm signed up for season two just to watch how Valia deals with having

[01:23:51] to team up with an Atreides.

[01:23:53] Right.

[01:23:53] But they're on Arrakis and she says, Inez, she's just ignoring Kieran at this point.

[01:24:00] She's like pretending he's not there.

[01:24:01] She's like, Inez, the path to our enemy begins here.

[01:24:05] Who do you think she means is their enemy?

[01:24:09] Well, the, whoever, whoever built Desmond, I think is the central technician here.

[01:24:14] Right.

[01:24:14] Cause the Imperium is not the enemy.

[01:24:16] The Imperium is the.

[01:24:18] What they seek to control, which they have.

[01:24:20] The MacGuffin at this point.

[01:24:22] Right.

[01:24:22] Yeah.

[01:24:22] It's, it's a kind of a, a meta MacGuffin, if you will.

[01:24:26] Yeah.

[01:24:27] Uh, so yeah, whoever, whoever is behind that.

[01:24:30] And, and I, many Tileks are certainly prime suspects.

[01:24:35] I would guess the Ixians are not to be, uh, forgotten about.

[01:24:41] Uh, but I, I really think that the Tileks are, are who they're point.

[01:24:46] The clues that the breadcrumbs that they've laid out so far, at least are putting it,

[01:24:50] pointing me in that direction.

[01:24:51] Um, yeah, we're, I have another idea I'm going to talk about after in the spoiler section

[01:24:56] after the credits.

[01:24:57] Okay.

[01:24:58] But yeah, Inez, I guess she's technically inherited the throne now, but she doesn't even

[01:25:03] know her father's dead.

[01:25:04] That's a good point.

[01:25:06] And we don't know.

[01:25:07] Yeah.

[01:25:08] Natalia is going to, uh, sit the throne, I guess.

[01:25:11] Yeah.

[01:25:11] But we don't even know where Constantine is.

[01:25:13] We saw no Constantine and no Michaela this episode.

[01:25:17] Well, Constantine was going to be dispatched with the fleet to take, uh, control of Arrakis

[01:25:23] or to bring order to Arrakis.

[01:25:26] Right.

[01:25:26] So is he there?

[01:25:27] They're going to meet up with him on Arrakis.

[01:25:29] And I wonder how he's, cause he had kind of turned on his sister last we saw him.

[01:25:34] Because, Hey, I finally got my daddy's love.

[01:25:37] So.

[01:25:38] And now daddy's dead.

[01:25:39] So.

[01:25:39] Yes, exactly.

[01:25:41] Avenge me.

[01:25:42] My son.

[01:25:43] What is this going to mean?

[01:25:44] How's he going to take that?

[01:25:46] Huge, huge, huge plot, uh, huge, huge room for plot development.

[01:25:50] Right.

[01:25:51] And I just hope that they, yeah, as we said, I just like hope let's give the characters

[01:25:56] room to breathe and to, for us to connect with the characters so that we actually see

[01:26:01] these plot machinations play out and feel something really feel something for them.

[01:26:06] Right.

[01:26:06] Yeah.

[01:26:07] I mean, if they are now able to more like plan in advance and presumably they won't be

[01:26:12] filming during a writer's strike and all that, um, then I hope they are just able to just

[01:26:17] tell exactly as much of the story as you can fit with finishing it off and, you know, making,

[01:26:22] not leaving us with all this head cannon that we have to create.

[01:26:26] Then, uh, that would be a sign of a successful season too.

[01:26:29] What was it?

[01:26:30] The, uh, Oh, the, um, the ringer or not on the ringer network, the watch podcast, they

[01:26:34] were talking with, uh, showrunners from Shogun, uh, and they were talking about this, how important

[01:26:39] it is to have writers on set during production because there are constant choices being made.

[01:26:45] Yeah.

[01:26:45] You can break the episode.

[01:26:47] You can write the scripts for it, but once you actually get into the practicality of shooting

[01:26:51] with actors and sets and weather and CJ, all this kind of stuff, you need to make last

[01:26:58] minute change, literally last minute changes, handing actors scripts as they're standing

[01:27:03] in front of the camera.

[01:27:05] And if you don't have the writers there who are intimately connected to the source material,

[01:27:11] you're just adding impurities into your impurities.

[01:27:14] Like I'm, I'm trying to, you know, like you're degrading ultimately what's going on.

[01:27:18] Cause you need people who are understanding the whole of the storyline.

[01:27:22] Right.

[01:27:22] And I mean, it's not just that it's just, you need people who can write.

[01:27:28] Very important aspect.

[01:27:29] And you need to train those writers, right?

[01:27:31] That's the, that was part of the story of the strike was we need people not to just sit

[01:27:36] in a room for a couple of weeks to break a season, but they need to be on set to understand

[01:27:41] how this all works together.

[01:27:43] So I really think that that's, that's just more apparent to me now than ever.

[01:27:48] And how important writers are.

[01:27:50] Like I understood how important writers are, but like, it's really, I'm getting it on another

[01:27:55] level now after watching a lot of these shows struggle with these same issues.

[01:28:00] Yeah.

[01:28:01] Anyway, that's another podcast.

[01:28:04] So, all right.

[01:28:06] Well, it seems like we're here at the end.

[01:28:08] So thanks again for putting together the notes on this episode.

[01:28:12] I appreciate you taking the time and it's been a pretty good run for a, for a season of

[01:28:18] television and we're going to have some more movies and other things to talk about.

[01:28:23] And we made some new friends in the internet world with the, with this as well.

[01:28:27] And I look forward to talking to the Dune guys.

[01:28:30] What do we have going on in terms of what's next?

[01:28:35] So we've got sometime after the new year, I think is what you and I were talking about.

[01:28:41] We, you and I will get back together.

[01:28:43] We'll collect all of your feedback.

[01:28:45] So sending your feedback to dune at the lorehounds.com.

[01:28:50] Our good friend, Nancy, a friend that sounds so minuscule to compare to what she is.

[01:28:55] Our hand of the pod.

[01:28:57] Yeah.

[01:28:57] Hand of the pod.

[01:28:58] Nancy will be there to organize the feedback for us.

[01:29:00] She's also, I'm sure going to pull up a bunch of the stuff from the discord because there's

[01:29:03] been a lot of great conversation there.

[01:29:05] And then you and I will break the episode a little bit more through the using feedback

[01:29:09] as a, as conversation points and anything else that comes up for us.

[01:29:15] And then at some point, you know, a week or two after that, we'll get together with Dune

[01:29:18] Minute Podcast and we'll do a big lore, like, whew, let's take a big breath and sort of dive

[01:29:24] in.

[01:29:25] Once we've had time to process.

[01:29:27] Exactly.

[01:29:28] Exactly.

[01:29:29] We, on our main feed, John and you have been having a little bit of fun with the Christmas

[01:29:37] season.

[01:29:37] And Maya and I were able to jump in with our good friend, Anna Claus as well.

[01:29:42] And we did what our little secret and hot frosty.

[01:29:47] That was an experience.

[01:29:50] Hot frosty is awesome.

[01:29:52] Watch it.

[01:29:52] It's so awesomely bad.

[01:29:55] It is.

[01:29:56] It is really, it is camp.

[01:29:57] It is total camp.

[01:29:58] Yeah.

[01:29:58] So, uh, with a wink and a nod.

[01:30:01] It knows it's camp.

[01:30:02] Yeah.

[01:30:03] Yeah.

[01:30:03] What, and what else you, you and John got up to some other, uh, yeah, we did the Christmas

[01:30:08] Prince trilogy and the princess switch trilogy plus the night before Christmas.

[01:30:13] So those episodes, there's two episodes there that are extras that are available for subscribers

[01:30:18] on supercast and Patreon.

[01:30:20] Nice.

[01:30:20] I was at a, we were at a family, uh, friends of fam, you know, extended family friends,

[01:30:25] uh, gathering last night holiday party.

[01:30:27] And the, the question came up of is a movie, a Chris, what makes a Christmas movie, a Christmas

[01:30:33] movie because it's set during Christmas or because it deals with Christmas themes.

[01:30:37] So we had a fun time talking about those things.

[01:30:39] So you guys definitely come into Christmas topics this year.

[01:30:42] Actually.

[01:30:43] Yeah.

[01:30:43] Luke and I, cause Luke and I are doing on will shift us the Christmas carol mini series.

[01:30:47] And in our twists episode, we were having the similar sort of a discussion because we

[01:30:52] were discussing whether a film is a Christmas movie or not.

[01:30:56] And yeah, what makes that so.

[01:30:58] Exactly.

[01:30:58] Exactly.

[01:31:00] Uh, what else do we have?

[01:31:01] We have our, oh yeah.

[01:31:02] On speaking of Christmas on, on Christmas day tomorrow, as a relative to when we're recording

[01:31:07] this, um, we are going to have our, uh, year end top 10 podcasts.

[01:31:13] So normally, uh, this was a, uh, uh, would be a normally a subscriber benefit show, but

[01:31:20] we always make our top 10 list available to everyone.

[01:31:23] And you, me and John go over our top 10 lists for the year, which, uh, was a lot of fun

[01:31:29] to record.

[01:31:30] And John, we recorded earlier this month when John was a little sick.

[01:31:33] And so his voice, he sounds very much like James Earl Jones.

[01:31:36] So he, uh, so when you hear it, uh, just know that he's fine.

[01:31:41] Everything's fine.

[01:31:42] Uh, we're all good.

[01:31:44] Uh, we had a fun, I had another podcast out with a Star Trek motion picture with.

[01:31:48] And there's going to be a second top 10, right?

[01:31:50] With the interviews with various contributors.

[01:31:55] That's right.

[01:31:56] Yeah.

[01:31:56] Uh, on boxing day, uh, as it were the day after we, uh, have, uh, John and I kind of split

[01:32:03] up, uh, who we talked to and we, we talked to all of our affiliates and our co-hosts and

[01:32:07] got everybody's top three, uh, movies, uh, for that.

[01:32:11] And, uh, so that'll be packaged up in under on your podcast feed on the day after, uh, Christmas

[01:32:18] on the 26th.

[01:32:20] And, uh, what else do we got?

[01:32:22] A skeleton crew.

[01:32:24] Right.

[01:32:24] Oh yeah.

[01:32:24] We do.

[01:32:25] Sorry.

[01:32:25] I interrupted you talking about Star Trek, but yeah.

[01:32:27] Oh, right.

[01:32:28] Yeah.

[01:32:28] The motion picture podcast.

[01:32:29] That was a lot of fun with Ian from the captain's pod.

[01:32:33] And, uh, we've got some plans in the future, but we'll, we'll wait.

[01:32:36] We'll save those for next year.

[01:32:38] Uh, John and Maryland, uh, got a skeleton crew episodes one through four.

[01:32:44] Yeah.

[01:32:45] Mid season.

[01:32:46] Yeah.

[01:32:46] Yeah.

[01:32:46] Um, and then they'll do another one when they follow up.

[01:32:49] And I think you're very pleased with what skeleton crew is doing and where they're going.

[01:32:55] Oh yeah.

[01:32:56] And story wise.

[01:32:57] Oh, I'm so excited.

[01:32:58] A new episode comes out tonight.

[01:33:00] Yeah.

[01:33:00] Very cool.

[01:33:01] Yeah.

[01:33:01] Yeah.

[01:33:02] Fun, fun, fun.

[01:33:03] Yeah.

[01:33:03] It's a lovely show.

[01:33:04] It really is done a good job.

[01:33:06] Yeah.

[01:33:06] Um, what else do you've got here?

[01:33:08] Um, I'm getting out three overdue episodes next week.

[01:33:11] As soon as I've wrapped up this, uh, other, uh, book project I'm working on and, um, which

[01:33:18] I only have one part left.

[01:33:19] Oh my God, it's gonna be such a big deal.

[01:33:21] But anyway, and the Christmas coverage, which I've been editing the hell out of.

[01:33:24] Uh, so next week there's going to be, uh, three catch up.

[01:33:27] Uh, uh, one is finally the Agatha Coven quiz.

[01:33:31] Uh, we did coverage with Nicole, Marilyn and I about Wicked, the new movie musical.

[01:33:40] Fine.

[01:33:40] I think you got some voicemails from some of the other, uh, Lorehound co-hosts as well.

[01:33:45] From Ron, at least.

[01:33:46] Okay, good.

[01:33:47] Yeah.

[01:33:47] Right.

[01:33:48] Uh, and then also Jean and I did a, we finally did a, now Joker 2, Joker Folie Deux is now

[01:33:56] available for streaming.

[01:33:57] So we've done our, uh, our critique of it, but also like, what do we think?

[01:34:02] Is it a, you know, spoiler alert?

[01:34:04] We neither think it's as good or as bad as anyone else is saying.

[01:34:07] Um, but we paired it with our first versus episode.

[01:34:10] So it's Joker from DC comics versus Madcap, which is a Marvel villain.

[01:34:15] Okay.

[01:34:16] Very cool.

[01:34:17] And then I, I think we've been kicking around the idea of a conclave and there was something

[01:34:21] else that we were kicking around for the new year's.

[01:34:23] Oh, war of the Roharim as well.

[01:34:25] So those are, those are all in conversations, but we're going to just wait until the, everybody's

[01:34:30] back and settled from the holidays to cover those.

[01:34:32] Well, at the very least we're going to be covering conclave, uh, with the, um, with the award

[01:34:38] season because it's going to be a big player.

[01:34:40] Right.

[01:34:40] Right.

[01:34:41] Uh, it seems like there's a lot of late breaking award season movies out there.

[01:34:44] So, uh, what else you got?

[01:34:47] A worship dust.

[01:34:48] Yeah.

[01:34:49] A worship dust.

[01:34:49] So we did, um, a Christmas Carol mini series.

[01:34:52] So there are four episodes, including a mini intro episode on the public feed and an extra

[01:34:57] one for wool shift dust, dust subscribers, which is a different subscriber model.

[01:35:02] Um, and of course we have ongoing silo season two coverage, which is continuing through January

[01:35:09] 17th.

[01:35:10] Um, do check out also my Star Wars Canon timeline podcast and then, yeah, the rest of the network,

[01:35:15] which by the way, check the link tree in the show notes for links to, uh, the super cast

[01:35:21] and Patreon and all of these affiliates and email and yeah.

[01:35:26] And, uh, nevermind the music, uh, party in the USA by Miley Cyrus and the pentatonic life.

[01:35:33] That sounds like a really interesting, uh, topic.

[01:35:36] Uh, I gotta, I gotta listen to that.

[01:35:38] Pentatonic life transitions.

[01:35:39] Yeah.

[01:35:40] Interesting.

[01:35:41] Uh, properly Howard is going strong with a few good films and they just, uh, there was

[01:35:45] a podcast that popped up in my feed the other day.

[01:35:47] There's so much podcast content.

[01:35:49] You've got plenty to occupy yourself this, uh, this, uh, holiday season.

[01:35:55] Radioactive ramblings has been covering arcane, the red rising books and studio, uh, Ghibli

[01:36:00] movie, uh, how's moving castle.

[01:36:03] Is that right?

[01:36:03] So far.

[01:36:04] Yeah.

[01:36:04] They're, they're doing a whole series.

[01:36:06] Okay.

[01:36:07] Great.

[01:36:07] Right.

[01:36:07] And then, uh, severance is going to be our big show starting January 17th.

[01:36:13] And John and I are going to be pairing up with Anthony and Steve from properly Howard

[01:36:17] to be covering that week by week.

[01:36:21] Uh, and we're looking forward to it.

[01:36:23] John is very excited for.

[01:36:24] Yeah.

[01:36:25] I mean, sorry, severance.

[01:36:26] What am I saying?

[01:36:26] Um, yeah, he just told me there's a short story tie in that was released.

[01:36:30] Now I have to read it.

[01:36:31] Um, no fun.

[01:36:32] Yeah.

[01:36:33] Okay.

[01:36:33] But yeah, people should catch up with, uh, Stephen Anthony season one coverage on that

[01:36:37] separate severance feed before.

[01:36:39] Exactly.

[01:36:40] January 17th as well.

[01:36:42] Exactly.

[01:36:42] And then I hand this, the baton of Apple sci-fi content from over to you at severance.

[01:36:49] Hopefully you can take a little bit of a breather.

[01:36:51] Oh yeah.

[01:36:51] Well, I mean, I'm going to be prepping for the awards content and all this, this Marvel

[01:36:55] and stuff that John and I planned, but, um.

[01:36:58] Yeah.

[01:36:58] Comics versus it's going to look like it's going to be a good year for you guys.

[01:37:01] It's going to be busy.

[01:37:01] Yeah.

[01:37:02] It's going to be busy.

[01:37:03] Yeah.

[01:37:04] All right.

[01:37:04] Well, do you want to, uh, read us out?

[01:37:06] I've got some nice lo-fi music set up for you.

[01:37:08] Cool.

[01:37:10] All right.

[01:37:11] Welcome to our discord server boosters.

[01:37:13] Aaron K.

[01:37:14] Alicia by midnight.

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[01:37:21] The stew.

[01:37:21] Nancy M.

[01:37:22] Ghost of Perdition.

[01:37:23] And radioactive Richard.

[01:37:25] And thank you, most especially, to our lore masters, our highest tier of subscribers

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[01:38:10] Always last.

[01:38:12] Thanks, everyone.

[01:38:13] Thanks, Alicia, for all your hard work on this.

[01:38:15] Thank you, Nancy, for everything.

[01:38:18] Wishing everyone a happy holidays and a good start to your new year.

[01:38:24] Lorehounds have plenty of coverage going for you for next year.

[01:38:28] So we're going to be busy and we're just glad that you're all here.

[01:38:31] So wishing you a wonderful holiday season.

[01:38:33] Alicia, thank you for everything again.

[01:38:35] Yeah.

[01:38:36] And everyone stick around for one more spoiler take.

[01:38:38] That's right.

[01:38:38] The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds.

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[01:39:01] Thanks for listening.

[01:39:03] Okay, Alicia, what do you got?

[01:39:05] So.

[01:39:06] Blue eyes.

[01:39:06] Yeah, so I think we're getting an ominous.

[01:39:13] Sorry.

[01:39:14] Omnius.

[01:39:15] Omnius.

[01:39:15] An ominous omnius?

[01:39:17] Yeah, exactly.

[01:39:19] So again, just as a reminder, Omnius was sort of like the hive mind that was leading the

[01:39:26] AI side of the great machine wars.

[01:39:29] And one of his, I don't know, I won't call him a general.

[01:39:33] I don't mean to actually give him a title, but someone who worked on his side, but then

[01:39:37] defected and then was with the Mentats and then had a connection with all these key characters

[01:39:41] in the prequel trilogies named Erasmus.

[01:39:45] He was also a machine whose brain core was saved, but then seemed to have been killed later.

[01:39:52] But then these characters pop up again 10,000 years later to cause trouble in the later

[01:40:00] original Dune books.

[01:40:02] So it's, this should be a time when they're laying low, or at least we, I don't know.

[01:40:08] We, this is kind of, they're playing with this in-between point in the timeline.

[01:40:12] Um, but that seems to be what we saw in terms of like the machine.

[01:40:19] Cause remember the machine we saw them fighting in the first scene of the series?

[01:40:24] Do I, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:40:26] Exactly.

[01:40:26] That big sort of, um, that spider creature, but yeah.

[01:40:30] Yeah.

[01:40:30] Four legged thing.

[01:40:30] Yeah.

[01:40:31] And this seems to be, uh, the same sort of technology basically.

[01:40:35] Yeah.

[01:40:36] Yeah.

[01:40:36] Yeah.

[01:40:37] Do you, I haven't got a chance to listen or read or check on any of the other reactions

[01:40:43] to the episode, but I wonder how hard done do people feel about this not being, uh, Paul

[01:40:51] or Lato 2 or the golden path.

[01:40:54] I mean, you can't give us two blue eyes without, you know, toying with our emotions.

[01:40:59] Um, I didn't hear anyone who wanted it to be Paul in the first place.

[01:41:02] So I didn't hear any disappointment on that front.

[01:41:04] I think the people who were guessing Lato 2 are also, they're pulling from the same,

[01:41:10] um, not that I've really, that I've gotten a chance to listen to many other, to other

[01:41:15] podcasts really yet, except for the official one.

[01:41:18] Um, but I think that if you, you're looking for Lato 2, you're, you're happy to have other

[01:41:23] references to these later books, which would be my interpretation.

[01:41:26] I'm fine with it.

[01:41:27] Okay.

[01:41:28] Right.

[01:41:29] Cause, uh, yeah.

[01:41:29] It makes more sense probably, to be honest.

[01:41:33] Was that an intent, you know, were they intentionally toying with us or like, yeah, I don't know.

[01:41:37] It's, uh, it's interesting.

[01:41:39] Again, they are making some very specific choices about what they're doing with the

[01:41:43] lore and the story.

[01:41:44] So we just kind of have to accept it.

[01:41:46] Cause it's not, cause Lato 2 can't influence backwards.

[01:41:49] So it almost seemed like at certain points they were trying to, to make us nervous about

[01:41:54] the lore and then being like, just kidding.

[01:41:56] It's not magic.

[01:41:56] And you know, we can't time travel.

[01:42:00] Exactly.

[01:42:01] I think, I think that's a good point.

[01:42:02] And yeah, the golden path doesn't go backwards.

[01:42:04] It's forward.

[01:42:05] So, uh, how could, how could have Lato 2, the second influenced the reckoning and stuff

[01:42:12] like that?

[01:42:13] So that's, I think that's an interesting point.

[01:42:15] So, uh, interesting.

[01:42:17] Yeah.

[01:42:17] Omnius.

[01:42:18] I mean, I think Omnius is a good, uh, uh, uh, bet on, uh, what this is or it could be the

[01:42:25] Tlylax.

[01:42:26] Right.

[01:42:26] So, uh, cause they've got motive as well.

[01:42:30] Uh, and we don't have, there's a, like you said, I think they could be strange bedfellows

[01:42:35] working together, you know?

[01:42:36] Exactly.

[01:42:36] Exactly.

[01:42:37] And I think you pointed this out early on was they chose a opportune moment in the written

[01:42:45] lore and all of the XD and OG books where there's nothing here so that they can, they

[01:42:51] can, they can wrap story the way that they want to.

[01:42:54] They can, they just know a starting point and an ending point.

[01:42:57] Right.

[01:42:57] They can fit stuff in.

[01:42:59] And the ending point is 10,000 years away.

[01:43:01] So there's a lot of room.

[01:43:03] Exactly.

[01:43:04] Plenty of room to maneuver.

[01:43:05] So, all right.

[01:43:07] Well, I don't have anything else really.

[01:43:09] Uh, no, that was, that was it.

[01:43:10] That's just, yeah.

[01:43:11] So, I mean, I guess like there was some fun teases for season two.

[01:43:16] I just need them to pull it all together a bit more.

[01:43:20] And I feel like, you know, I do want to give the, the writers and stuff, the grace that

[01:43:26] there were these outside influences that affected the final product.

[01:43:31] Yeah.

[01:43:31] Indeed.

[01:43:32] All right.

[01:43:33] Well, Alicia, uh, happy holidays.

[01:43:35] Happy new year.

[01:43:36] This is my last podcast of the season.

[01:43:38] So of the year.

[01:43:39] So I don't know about you.

[01:43:40] Are you, are you all done?

[01:43:41] Uh, one more spoiler cast with Abby on Friday.

[01:43:45] Yeah.

[01:43:45] Good.

[01:43:45] Well, I hope you enjoy your holidays and your time with your family.

[01:43:48] All right.

[01:43:48] Thank you.

[01:43:49] You too.

[01:43:49] Okay.

[01:43:50] Bye.

[01:43:50] Bye.

[01:43:51] Bye.

[01:43:52] Bye.

[01:43:52] Bye.