House of the Dragon - S02E05 Feedback - Regent

[00:00:01] Okay, David, this is where we're supposed to choose a side. Green or black? John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life! So, we're not fighting? I thought this is where HBO wanted us to, like, pick sides and fight and stuff.

[00:00:24] Don't worry, I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod. But we seem to agree on one thing. We both really like this show. The politics, the drama, the lore! It was made for The Lorehounds.

[00:00:35] And since we just finished recapping Season 1, we couldn't be more ready to defend our Black Queen in the Dance of the Dragons.

[00:00:42] And with the Season Pass option in Supercast, listeners can get early ad-free access to each weekly scene-by-scene deep dive, plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections. See you in The Lorehounds podcast feed each week for our dragonfire hot, but probably positive, takes.

[00:01:00] The Lorehounds' House of the Dragon coverage is also safe for team green consumption. Side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore, a heartened conflict with itself, and an inescapable urge to read the book Fire and Blood by George R.R. Martin. Dragon seeds may experience burning.

[00:01:33] Welcome to the House of the Hounds, where the Lorehounds are your guides to the Dance of Dragons. I'm David. And I'm Alicia, and this is our feedback podcast for the House of the Dragon Season 2 Episode 5, Regent. Jon's feeling a bit poorly today, so Alicia, thanks for stepping in.

[00:01:49] Glad to be here. And you're going to be back next week because I'm going to be on vacation, so you're going to fill in again. So this is a good little primer, I guess. Well, now I get to talk to both of you about the show. Exactly.

[00:01:59] And I get to tell you to waffle because I can't do that to Jon. We're typically recording our feedback episodes a few days after our main episode breakdown.

[00:02:09] So if you want to send us feedback, you can send those ravens to our hand of the pod, Nancy M. Thank you, Nancy M. Send those to hotd at the lorehounds dot com or use the contact form or the voicemail feature on our website.

[00:02:28] And check also the link tree in the episode notes for links to our Discord server as well as all of our affiliate podcasts and our Supercast and Patreon feeds where you can subscribe to support the community and get some extra House of the Dragon content.

[00:02:42] That's right, like the show guide and early access, ad-free, all that kind of stuff. And the hot takes too. Yes, and the hot takes as well. Well, let's just jump right into it, shall we?

[00:02:54] I figured we could bounce back and forth with the emails and Discord messages that our hand of the pod has put together for us in this very fine document. Very well organized. Sounds great.

[00:03:08] But first, do you have any quick thoughts about the episode or the season overall just to get us into your headspace? Have you been enjoying the season? Yes. I mean, I think that this is a great show.

[00:03:22] I have to say, I got a little book cloaky in the beginning of the season, which is not something I typically find myself. So I really had to look within.

[00:03:32] I think it's also a case of, you know, we talked about after Dune how things dull the shine of other things when you're really into one particular thing. And that was the case when the season started.

[00:03:44] I was like, but wait, I'm not done with Interview with the Vampire. Hold your dragons.

[00:03:49] And then, yeah, I wanted in the first episodes, I wanted them to, I was really like had created this story in my head about what they were going to do with the Winterfell plots and how they were going to handle blood and cheese.

[00:03:59] And I was kind of like, but episode four was for me where the season like really kicked into full gear. I knew I was going to lose my favorite character in the show, Reyna and Renise. And they did it so well.

[00:04:15] It was like such her leaning back at that last moment when she knew what was happening was everything to me. Yeah, that episode overall just always handled really well. This one, I know some people are like, oh, this is a quieter episode, but of course it is.

[00:04:28] It should be. Yeah, I think that this was a good follow up to the last one. A lot of interesting moving pieces into places and they're finally getting into the dragon seeds. And that's what I've been most looking forward to. Right. Yes, the dragon seeds, not scenes, seeds.

[00:04:46] Yeah, gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, they're all dragon scenes. Yes, indeed. Yeah, I was saying this on the main pod.

[00:04:53] Don't sleep on this episode because there's some, even though there's some obvious place setting and moving some things into position, there's also some really important character work that I think is pretty, it's subtle and it can be missed, but it's so important and it's so very rich.

[00:05:13] So, cool. And for the record, I'm into the Damon plot, but of course, yeah, they gave me a castle witch. Of course I'm into the Damon plot. Of course you are. It's very witchy this year, isn't it? We've got Acolyte, Dune Sisterhood, Agatha.

[00:05:29] Yeah, I think I saw you post it on Twitter or something like that. Or where was it, Discord? I can't remember. They all merged together in the brain after a while. Yeah, it's a good year for Space Witch fans. Exactly, that's what it was.

[00:05:42] We're going to have to talk about Dune Sisterhood too. Yeah, absolutely. So, all right, well, let's just get right into it. I'll start us off and then we can just kind of bounce back and forth. I think that'll be a little bit more fun.

[00:05:52] Regarding general podcast feedback, we've got Waverly D., aka Professor WD by email. They say, hey guys, thank you for the great in-depth coverage of so many shows I watch. I don't have anyone in my world to nerd out with about HOTD, Severance, Acolyte, and other sci-fi fantasy shows.

[00:06:16] Hanging out with you is like chatting with friends who are passionate as I am about this stuff. I'm a low-level Patreon supporter and it's worth every penny. Keep up the good work, Professor WD. P.S., I live in Maine and I keep hoping to run into Marilyn.

[00:06:30] I totally want to be friends with her. Well, you are parasocially friends with her. So, you can count that. And I think one day we do. We joke about the idea of having a moot or a gathering or something together.

[00:06:44] We know other podcasts have done that and done that pretty successfully. So, one of these days, I think we will definitely try to organize something. I'm not sure where we're going to do it since we're so geographically dispersed.

[00:06:57] I mean, my votes are New York and London because both are easily accessible for me. Right. Fair enough. I mean, Amsterdam is fine. But I understand London has probably got more draw. Yeah. And we should mention also, speaking of low-level supporters,

[00:07:14] this month is the last chance to get in as a Lore Founder for the cheapest price because the content has been ramping up. So, we're going to grandfather in the people who are in the Lore Founder tier and then new subscribers will be joining the Lore Hound tier.

[00:07:32] Right. The newly minted, the recalibrated Lore Hound tier. Yeah. And with the Lore Founder, whether you get an annual subscription or you do the monthly, and I'm sorry to be so salesy right now. No, but yeah, it's brought up. Yeah, just information at this stage.

[00:07:47] That's going to be, as you said, grandfathered in. So, as long as you renew and you keep that, you can keep that in perpetuity. And then if you ever dropped or suspended your subscription or whatever

[00:07:58] and then came back, then you would have to enter again at the newer tier rate. So, it's a good opportunity to lock in. I mean, I think we're approaching a million downloads. I think we're crossing the 300 podcast number for this year.

[00:08:16] I think, Alicia, strangely, ever since you've joined, things have been… There's been a lot more podcasts. There's been a lot more podcasts. Why is that? I don't know. Yeah, but yeah, so that's open until the end of the month. My mom just joined.

[00:08:34] Oh, hey, mom. Hey, Alicia's mom. My mom's joined too. I think John's mom is. We got good moms. Moms are awesome. We love our moms. All right. You want to read Jacob's? Yes. So, we got an email from Jacob G. It says, hi all, first time feedbacking.

[00:08:50] Wow, welcome, Jacob. On another blog slash forum I follow, they use the tag quote unquote meta to refer to inside podcast business. So, this is a meta comment. I'm worried that John is being a little cavalier with his book knowledge seeping into the commentary. Oh, okay.

[00:09:07] Wafo largely works, but his slash your discussion on Broom in this past episode and before that, the is Agan dead or alive, I can't tell you, but I'm not marking him dead in the show guide section. I'm feeling unintentionally spoiled. Oopsies.

[00:09:23] You can definitely tell me to kick rocks, and that's part of the deal with a book reader. I usually feel it is very valuable to have quote unquote lore knowledge, but I feel it's getting ahead of me here. Thanks for the great coverage and loving the $10 season pass.

[00:09:39] I have a feeling I'll be a full subscriber before rings of power. Oh, thank you. Yeah, that's great. Thank you, Jacob G. And yeah, I can't speak for John.

[00:09:49] I'm sure he'll take this on and think about that, and I will also as a book reader take this on and think about that as I'm stepping in this week.

[00:09:57] It's not always an easy thing to navigate, and we try to be well balanced because obviously when we're talking and we want a good conversation flow on the podcast so that we get that fun thing like you're hanging out with us

[00:10:15] and we're all sitting around the pub having a pint talking about the show or what have you. And it's very easy sometimes for something to slip out. I'm not necessarily speaking for John in this, just talking as a general podcaster. It can be tricky.

[00:10:29] So occasionally if we stray the line, we apologize. We do try to be very mindful. I mean, you had a whole conversation in the acolyte in the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast about spoilers. People said there were not enough spoilers there.

[00:10:42] So yeah, you have to find the balance for the audience.

[00:10:45] But also I do have to say in John's defense, he has held me back from certain spoilers, like in say the Discord, because as soon as Alice Rivers showed up, I'm like, I want to talk about Alice Rivers. And he's like, hold, hold.

[00:11:01] Well, Jacob G., thanks so much for writing in. Welcome. Please send us more feedback. We always want. And, you know, general note again, before we get even into some more show-specific stuff, just on feedback.

[00:11:13] I know that sometimes I know this about me when I hear a podcaster say something that I want to correct or update them on or counterpoint that I'm often more motivated by when there's something I want to push back against or something.

[00:11:31] As opposed to when I agree with things or I have additional thoughts, they don't have as much energy or velocity that gets then translated into an email or voicemail or something like that. So I just want to encourage everybody, reverse that a little bit.

[00:11:44] And when you do agree or when you do feel parallel thoughts, actually take the time and write that in because it's not just – you're not sending feedback just to us. Right. You're sending feedback to the community.

[00:11:55] And this is the way that the community gets to hear its own voices by us translating your words back out. So, you know, don't let enragement be the only form of engagement. I would encourage and invite everyone to just write in your general thoughts and feelings. Right? Absolutely.

[00:12:13] Absolutely. That pointed out that the slow push in they had on Allison as she's having that really intense emotional reaction, borderline panic attack. I don't know how different people are characterizing it slightly different ways. But that shot was almost a minute long.

[00:13:01] And for a show to devote a whole minute to a single shot where there's a very, very slow zoom in, that's a really incredible bold choice as a showrunner, director to choose for that. Right?

[00:13:23] And to spend that much time with one character having that strong of an emotional reaction, I think is really good. And I echo Ian's comment here. Yeah, the cinematography in this show has been one of its strongest points for me overall.

[00:13:39] Yeah, it's been pretty – it's a beautiful show, like the way they're setting everything up. Yeah. Okay. Well, so let's get into bringing the book to life production. So we got an email from Belisa that says – or Belisa, sorry if I'm mispronouncing that. Hi, Lorehounds.

[00:13:59] Can we just take a moment and admire the wonderful ways they use fire, torches, and candles in the set design on this show? I love how it lights up dark corners and it's used on hanging light fixtures to light up dark ceilings too.

[00:14:11] I'd love to know how they manage that. Did they just run gas lines to the fixtures or is it CGI? Or did they just put some flammable material up there and hope it didn't cause a bigger fire?

[00:14:23] I just think that this is a really nice touch, and I sure hope no one got hurt on the set because of it. Speaking of decor, I love the shot you included as the last image in your visual episode recap for Episode 5.

[00:14:35] It gave me a chance to really get a good look at the hundreds and hundreds of scrolls lining the walls of the library at Dragonstone. Wow. I just want to spend a week in this room pulling out random scrolls and reading them.

[00:14:47] Thanks for all your hard work covering this. Yeah, I mean as someone who has endless scrolls of books, we call them books, we call them at my house, I definitely relate to this.

[00:15:00] I can answer the, I think that the fire is CGI because if you watch the behind the scenes episodes that they've done, they showed that for instance when we saw Corlys back in Driftmark on his throne,

[00:15:20] they showed that before they had built the entire set for that and this time it was just too expensive to rebuild

[00:15:26] when they could just build the practical part he needs to interact with and sit on and do the rest around it with CGI to flesh out the castle. Wow, that's really interesting. That's a big CGI budget if you're doing a lot of set backdrops.

[00:15:42] Yeah, but it's less, they said, than rebuilding the entire sets every time. Interesting. Because it gives them more flexibility so that this season they could move around a bit more. Huh, okay. That's cool. Yeah, I did notice what Belisa was saying too on the wall.

[00:15:57] So like maybe it'll be a daytime shot and you'll see the candle sconce, I guess it would be a sconce. I'm not sure of the technical terms for there.

[00:16:05] And above that on the wall, you'll see the blackened carbon soot on the wall of where the flame would be lit at night and how it's scarring the wall. So they've even gone to that level of detail. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:16:21] Yeah, Rhaenry's library is wild visually. It's so tall and it kind of makes me think of the table a little bit where they've, you know, the her, what do they call it? The painted table I think is the technical, the actual name for it.

[00:16:38] Right, where they do their war planning, yeah. Yeah, Dragonstone. And they have all the candles lit up underneath it to make it glow. And it kind of reminds me, her library reminds me a little bit of that with the back, just from a back glow standpoint. Yeah.

[00:16:53] So it's illuminated from behind. And just the contrast with we saw last episode, Aegon was clearing out all of his father's books from his room. And I always say, you know, the measure of a leader is what's in their library.

[00:17:05] I don't always say that. That's the first time I've said it, but I believe it.

[00:17:09] That's a really good point. It again goes to that, one of the themes that they were playing with, especially in season one and the early parts of this season, which is the youth versus, you know, young, brash, like, oh, I have to act.

[00:17:26] I don't want to send, what does Aegon say? Something about, something about like swords versus letters or something. But he's older than Aemond, and Aemond is much more likely to pick up a book. That's true. That's true.

[00:17:41] But, you know, maybe not character specific, just this idea of young people want to get out and do stuff in the world. And older folks may be like, let's think about this for a minute.

[00:17:55] And I'm not adding a value judgment on either one, but it's somewhere in the middle where, yeah, you've got to act.

[00:18:02] Because we see when Rhaenyra doesn't act or is acting with a different set of motivations that's counter to everything else that the situation seems to be demanding of her. Versus just thinking all the time, like Viserys, who just thought all the time.

[00:18:20] Where Aegon was impulsive and jumped on the back of his dragon when he really shouldn't have. That there's that tension there. And I think that's what makes for a good drama, right? Right. Is narrative tension.

[00:18:32] Well, we do, yeah, because this is a key point in the story where we see, you know, we see the younger generation coming into their own and trying to figure out their own way.

[00:18:43] How do I implant myself in the ruling structure? You know, if I'm supposed to inherit or I already have inherited. And we see, for instance, like Jace is Rhaenyra's inheritor and he doesn't want to be safe at home.

[00:18:58] She doesn't want it either, but he can't, like, he doesn't stop himself. I mean, to be fair, Daemon does the same thing and he's much older. But Jace is like, I just got to go out there and do some negotiating on my own.

[00:19:10] I got to act. I got to show that I am a powerful prince in my own right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a real natural tendency for wanting to be in the world and doing stuff, right?

[00:19:23] You're like, hey, I've got all this ability and faculty and let me shape the world. I want to mark the world. I want the world to feel my presence and I want to feel the world's presence back at me. Right. I want to know that I've done something.

[00:19:37] So, all right. Maester Abby. Abby, I'm giving you – yes, I'm designating you a maester. A good friend of the pod and all around fun emailer. She says, hello, good sayers and lady of the house of the hounds and special greetings to hand of the pod, Lady Nancy.

[00:19:57] So, episode five, I started my watch being mindful of the opening tapestry, which contrary to expectations did not in fact have any new events added to it. Lazy weavers. I'm going to make a side note here.

[00:20:12] I was listening to Maester Anthony over on – if you know Anthony from Properly Howard and we do a bunch of stuff with him. He also does a lot of podcasting with the Bald Move folks.

[00:20:23] And he was filling in on their episode five coverage and he put forward a theory saying that a tapestry is a public document in a way. It's going to be out for people to see. You walk into a room and you see this kind of stuff.

[00:20:38] So, we as show watchers are watching it and we have more of an omniscient – quasi-omniscient point of view on this. And so, he's saying that – or his theory at this stage is that if the tapestries are kind of a public document in a way,

[00:20:57] then the only thing that's going to go onto a tapestry is public information. And so, what exactly happened with the dragon fight over Rook's Rest may not be as public because those are just mostly combatants. They can control the information a little bit more.

[00:21:16] Whereas, blood and cheese was a bit more of a public thing. So, it was just an interesting theory. So, I think let's see what happens. They may be intentionally only putting out certain key pieces of information. I don't know.

[00:21:32] I don't know what your thoughts are on the tapestry weavers. I mean, first of all, I have to applaud them. Like this is – I think this is a marked improvement over like the bloodlines thing. Agreed.

[00:21:46] And this is – but this is also more difficult to update, I think, to animate. It's more intricate. So, they might just be like making choices about – Okay. So, we'll see. We'll see by the end. I think let's hold our judgments until the end of the season.

[00:22:02] Anyway, continuing with Abby's email. And then I was just awed by the opening shot of the sunset on Driftmark. These shots of the castles are so gorgeous. By the way, I just want to take a moment and appreciate the great architectural designs and cinematography.

[00:22:18] The scenery is just beautiful. Some of the castles received renovation from what we saw in various seasons of Games of Thrones. Perhaps showing off how much more beautiful they were 100 years before. We have closer views or other angles on Drangonstone and the Eyrie. A new look on Driftmark.

[00:22:38] The Twins Bridge got a new look too with a pair of fort turrets added to – as stabilizing structures, maybe with the effect of looking much more safe and solid than in Game of Thrones. Yeah.

[00:22:52] I rewound and watched like the approach to the Eyrie this episode like three times. And I didn't go back and compare it. I meant to, so I'm glad that Abby acknowledged. Yeah, it is different, right? I'm not making that up. It looks more imposing and solid even.

[00:23:09] Yeah, I don't have much – I recognized the Eyrie when they showed it to us in this episode, but I didn't have enough of a residual memory or I didn't go back and look.

[00:23:20] But I did appreciate, and like she's saying, the overhead shots of the bridge or the sort of flying over Dragonstone. All of this. So between drones, like actually flying a drone out over the sea at that sort of time of day,

[00:23:37] and then CGI matting it back in, it's an incredible look. And I think even though our story is less – like we're focused in on a handful of characters and I guess our field of vision's a bit narrower from a plot standpoint.

[00:23:57] Visually, they're giving us a real wider sense of the world. Right. And we're also getting a lot more small folk point of views. So I think between those two, I don't feel at all claustrophobic or too narrowed in on stuff

[00:24:12] because I think visually, like Abby is saying, we're getting a whole lot of new visual information that makes us – even though, okay, we're back at Dragonstone. It's not the same recycled shot of Dragonstone. Right. Every time it's something new. It's a different new perspective. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay.

[00:24:30] Shall we continue with Abby's email talking about dragon riding? Sounds good. Oh, and just a quick note. If you do send in an email, sometimes Nancy will chop up your emails thematically. And people are actually starting to write that way and actually subheading their emails.

[00:24:46] You do not have to do that if you send in an email. You don't have to worry about grammar, punctuation, spelling, nothing. Right. Just send it in. We'll handle it. We'll read it. We're totally fine. We have no judgments about stuff.

[00:24:57] People writing on trains while they're commuting or using the voice to text, whatever. It doesn't matter. Don't be self-conscious about that at all. Yeah. Okay. Just to say that Abby's email is chunked up a little bit here. Sometimes we do that to put things in categories.

[00:25:13] Anyway, carry on. Abby says, I very much look forward to the dragon tryouts. The fact that Jace came up with the idea, now that is poetic. It is a necessity but also a trap. New can of worms getting opened.

[00:25:26] Wondering if we will see all the dragons from the histories or just the name-dropped ones? Vermithor, Silverwing, Seasmoke. I'm pretty sure we also saw another key one. I guess I won't name-drop just because of the spoiler warning earlier. But I think we saw that one in the trailer.

[00:25:43] Anyway, this might be a point where the show's story might deviate further from the written stories if some characters get written out of this telling. Mm-hmm. But that dragon that I think she's referring to, we saw a different character approaching in the trailers. So far so good.

[00:25:59] The show does a good job in making most characters three-dimensional and making the world realistic and giving more perspectives on events. Conclusion, I did like the episode all in all. I'm looking forward to hearing all the other perspectives and theories and the community will have. Your friend, Abby.

[00:26:19] So we, in the Discord, I grabbed an image and then somebody else grabbed another image showing the relative sizes of different dragons. I think the second image that got posted, people were like, oops, this has writer names on it.

[00:26:34] So we had to quickly get that spoiler covered over. It is really tough because dragons and dragon writers and who's doing what when is actually really big spoiler stuff. Right? Right. And also not even just that it names the names, but it names future titles for different characters.

[00:26:52] Ah, right. So, but I think it's very interesting to see these different dragons and see these different relative sizes. Like, God, some of these dragons are just massive. Well, it's also, yeah, I mean, they take some liberties in the show because they have to.

[00:27:11] But like basically as that one that had to be spoiler blocked that you were talking about shows is that Drogon, the biggest dragon of Daenerys in the Game of Thrones series is like, you know, like the size of a horse compared to Vhagar,

[00:27:28] who is like, you know, the size of a mountain. Yeah. Or Balerion, who's even bigger. It's crazy to think about that. Yeah. Well, Dance of Dragons, that's what we wanted for this season. Right? Right. Yeah. I was wondering about this too.

[00:27:45] I mentioned this on the main pod was, okay, fine, we've got some dragon seeds out there. Conceivably, they're going to try to work the angle here. And then that opens up the whole question of how do you bond with a dragon

[00:27:59] and how does a dragon sense somebody that it wants to take on, all of that stuff. The fact is once you put a human being on there who's not grown up in and around dragons and dragon lore and dragon fighting combat techniques and, okay,

[00:28:17] when the dragon does a barrel roll, this is how you hold on. You know, like all these really specific techniques. I can't just jump in – I can't go down to the local National Air Guard base

[00:28:30] and just jump into an F-15 or an F-16 or something like that and go flying. Right. Yeah. The one difference though is that an F-15 or F-16 will at least let you sit in the cockpit. There is no guarantee with a dragon that that's going to –

[00:28:47] because we heard Bela or, yeah, Reina almost got killed with the recent attempt. Exactly. All right. Severin and Rocky Zim had a couple of Discord comments. Severin says, I can't imagine the dragons will accept the first person they meet. Curious to see who – Right. There we go.

[00:29:06] Quote, unquote, doesn't make the cut. Yeah. Right. When you don't make the cut with a dragon, it's a real cut. And then Rocky Zim says, the dog will become a dragon rider and get revenge for his owner's death. He gets Vermithor. Such a good boy.

[00:29:22] Rocky Zim, did you read the book? Yeah, book spoiler. Bleep this one. That's funny. Oh, the poor dog. Yeah. Aw. I hope we see someone adopt the dog though since they keep showing us the dog.

[00:29:37] The dog was in the background of the shot of Alicent and Cole talking the whole time it was there. Just really great attention to detail. Good job, showrunners and production folks for just thinking through the little details.

[00:29:54] Really, really – this is the kind of quality and standard that we expect from HBO. Right. That's stuff that I love from a show of this caliber.

[00:30:04] I have to say Interview with the Vampire also did it exceptionally well where you have the story that's going on on the screen. That's, of course, the most important thing to follow.

[00:30:12] But especially on rewatches or if you're paying more attention, there are these entire stories that play out in the background. That just add an extra layer of appreciation when you go in deeper into it. Yeah. Richness. Yeah, for sure.

[00:30:27] Okay. So we also have on this subject a message on Discord from Cyrus Facepalm. Who also gets a Maester title. Who also gets a Maester title and says, I have seen a lot of chatter in the wider fandom about dragon bonding,

[00:30:43] mainly differences between claiming a living dragon versus bonding with a hatchling. Here is my understanding. The old Valyrians most likely created dragons with magic and bound them with Valyrian dragon lord bloodlines. This meant that people of that bloodline could not bond with dragons.

[00:30:59] We do not know if this was propaganda or real. The Targaryen children were given eggs in their cradle that made it easy for these children to bond with their dragons. It's harder to claim a living dragon.

[00:31:10] Examples of Targaryens whose dragons hatched and bonded with them are Rhaenyra, Rhaenyra and Syrax, Jace and Vermax, Luke and Arax, R.I.P., Aegon and Sunfyre, Bela and Moondancer. Other examples of Targaryens that claimed a living dragon are Aemond and Vhagar, Daemon and Caraxes,

[00:31:31] Rhaenys and Maelys, Helaena and Dreamfyre. In summary, bonding with hatchlings is much easier than claiming a living dragon. All of this talk of why Rhaena could not claim a dragon, it's not because of lack of trying as clarified in the show, but rather it's not that easy.

[00:31:47] And I have to say, just as for Dreamfyre who gets like no fun dragon time on screen, yeah, the show sometimes forgets she's a dragon rider. Oh, that's right. I'm the exception to that. Right.

[00:32:01] Yeah, so I guess the idea of using the mammalian, our primary world, mammals, baby mammals imprinting on a parent and that is a primary tool because mammals need to be taught. That's what play often is about.

[00:32:26] So especially like cats or dogs, things like that, dolphins, whatever, just mammals in general, because of the brain structure and the way that mammals work, we need play, we need to interact, we need to imprint, we need to be taught things.

[00:32:43] Whereas a lot of time with fish and reptiles and other things, they're born knowing everything they're going to know, maybe building some experience, but in terms of their basic function of their biological destiny, if you will, they have all the tools that they need to survive.

[00:33:00] So you see like a baby shark is hatched. It just goes off and swims and it's just taking its time until it can grow. Say baby alligator, snakes, things like that, turtles, they may learn over time.

[00:33:12] I'm not saying that they don't learn or they don't have an inner life of some kind, but in terms of basic tools. Whereas mammals, you need to be taught a lot of things and there's a lot of things that only come through experiential.

[00:33:24] So taking that – sorry for diverging there – taking that idea that, okay, the dragon needs to imprint on somebody once it's hatched or doesn't need that, but when that is there, what that makes available is a bonding and a relationship.

[00:33:41] The dragon can identify that person as a, hey, this is an important person in my life. I am imprinted versus an adult trying to go and ride Vagar. That's wild as an adult as she is for Amon. Yeah, that was scary.

[00:34:02] That's something I think only a brash teenager would do, back to your earlier point. Yeah, really good point. Because if Vagar didn't want you, she would stomp you or burn you or bite you or whatever. There's nothing you can do. Okay, cool. Thanks, Cyrus.

[00:34:19] Thanks for being a subscriber and such a great supporter of our community. On to bridge diplomacy, Jace and the phrase. I see what you did there, Nancy, bridge diplomacy. Abby, another part of her email, I need to mention the scene with Jace and the phrase.

[00:34:35] These people always want too much and overplay their own importance. Harrenhal, they're shopping for sure. A lot of water and blood will flow down the trident or if they even get the chance at ruling that in my opinion. Jace is good at this diplomacy.

[00:34:58] He surely received a grown-up title this season, but now has another signature look. Oh, I think she means a glow up. Oh, a glow up. Okay, gotcha. A lot of people are crushing on Jace now. I'm not saying Abby is, but the internet is loving Jace.

[00:35:18] Yes, that is true. That's right. A glow up this season, but now has another signature look of leaning on the pommel of his sword, which he carries at all times everywhere. He does, he does that little thing.

[00:35:30] That feels a bit rigid. Is he rehearsing in front of a mirror to look if he's princely enough? Just a reminder for us all that he's still so young. That is true, he is young.

[00:35:43] But he, well, I understand that his character from the book is that he does have a natural, a bit of a gift at diplomacy, right? Without being a spoiler, just as a general characteristic. Yeah, although he made me nervous with his conversation with the Freys,

[00:36:02] just because he's promising things that he can't necessarily promise on his own. And that's surely going to, that always comes back to bite you in the butt. If you're promising Daemon to do something, book or no book, it doesn't matter. This is Daemon that we're talking about here.

[00:36:22] You really are, you are really gambling. Well, I have to say, yeah, one thing like in terms of book spoilers or whatever, one important thing to keep in mind is that the book for listeners to keep in mind is that the book is a secondary source.

[00:36:38] So this is like repeating what other people have said. Some of it very salacious rumors in some cases. But so the idea of what we're seeing in the show is that it is, you know, the real versions of what happens.

[00:36:51] And then, you know, what gets written down is what history remembers. Or what people, yeah. What history remembers by way of I have a point of view and I'm going to inject my way internal.

[00:37:04] Yeah, right. By way of someone who's very biased towards one of the sides, for instance, you know? So even when we have spoilers, they're the loosest of spoilers at best because a lot of these details of like Jace's negotiation, things like that, you know? Fair enough.

[00:37:20] We don't really exactly know how these things go down. Yeah. OK, the next comment is from me. And this was one before John realized he wasn't going to be able to do this.

[00:37:31] He he crossed this one out. I was like, no, this is the only intelligent thing that I said this week on the Discord. You leave that one in. So I said, I think the phrase their family status is tied to the twins being a place of passage.

[00:37:46] You can't go north or south without passing through their stronghold. That's the source of any power they have. So they cling to it. Yeah, that's absolutely true. And I think it dovetails with Abby's comment, which is their sense of self-importance. How important are they?

[00:38:03] Oh, but this was by the way. Go for it. No, this was by the way in relation to somebody. So yeah, because I wrote this myself, I know what I was responding to. This was in response to somebody asking about the doors being portrayed always with the phrase.

[00:38:20] So I was saying that's why the doors are seen with the phrase, why they emphasize the door so much there. Right, right. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. And they're the ultimate gatekeepers, right? Yes. Literally their one thing.

[00:38:35] And they feel the importance of that and that they give themselves a status because of that. And whether it's warranted or unwarranted or however people are doing it, that's how they're relating to themselves as this key passage.

[00:38:50] And yeah, when it comes to thinking strategically about where different forces need to come, it really does create – I mean you've got the neck and you've got some other things. Is it Mote Callan? Like you have kind of a wetlands area as well that separates the north.

[00:39:09] But this really does provide – Right, but that's dangerous as you can't cross an army through there. Right. And so yeah, this really does create an important choke point between north and south. And even to the Erie to some degree, right? If I understand right.

[00:39:22] Right, well the Erie is like off to the side. Yeah. Well, let's not get into too much geography. Anyway, strategically it's important. I do miss the – I mean I like the tapestries they're doing and I understand why they want to switch it up.

[00:39:35] But it was so handy to have every episode of Game of Thrones start with a map. That's true. Yeah, to let us know where we are and that kind of stuff. That's my favorite thing growing up about fantasy books is the maps in the front covers. That's true.

[00:39:46] Yeah, I would always do that. The Dune books you didn't have – well, I mean you did have in the – there were some map stuff that was important actually. Yeah, not in the front of every book but like you could get the materials.

[00:39:59] Yeah, but it's certainly for Lord of the Rings I was always map checking. Wheel of Time. Yeah, 100%. All right, Athena Agilea on the Discord. So I was curious and I think I realized why I got so fixated on the door at the phrase – oh, here we go.

[00:40:12] Yeah, okay. So I was responding to this, yeah. Got it, okay. There's a story from the book Voices of Chernobyl where there's a person who went back into the exclusion zone to take the front door from his home and get it out of the area.

[00:40:27] His specific family had a tradition of laying the deceased on the door before burial. Here is an excerpt. My father lay on this door. I don't know whose tradition this is. It's not like that everywhere.

[00:40:40] But my mother told me that the deceased must be placed on a door of his home. He lies there until they bring the coffin. I sat by my father all night. He lay on this door. I think this is interesting.

[00:40:55] I think it's an interesting thing from a ritual perspective, the importance of doors in some cultures. I want to know the significance for the phrase. Okay, got it. So yeah, going back to what you were saying, which is they're the ultimate gatekeepers in this way.

[00:41:11] That's a really interesting ritual and that's a really interesting idea, the whole idea. We talk a little bit about it in the Earthsea series, which we're going to finish. We know it's been delayed. I mean, everyone knows it's hot log summer. Yes, exactly.

[00:41:25] But this idea that the boundary between life and death and these different thresholds and the way that those thresholds are depicted, be it a door, be it a river, be it a wall.

[00:41:37] But there's some sort of boundary or demarcation between where we are in the living and what's beyond and whatever that may be. And so even in this regard with just crossing a river, a really big river, the doors are what keep people from accessing that.

[00:41:55] And so they control access. Yeah, and rivers are often the passage to death too. That's true. Planes. Okay, so we're talking about the mother. Christina J. said in an email, Hiya.

[00:42:08] I noticed that there's a certain amount of rancor when it comes to Alicent as a mother that is not extended to Viserys or Daemon who both are deadbeat dads. Thank you. I was actually going to stand up for Alicent the first chance I got.

[00:42:21] We'll get back to this. So Christina says, so I wonder why is a mother's neglect judged more egregious than a father's? Have we acclimated socially to a diminished father's role, influence versus the responsibility of a mother's being the bearer of said child?

[00:42:37] Regarding how women ruled political power at this time historically, mothers were often kept from their male children so as to not have undue influence on them. Males were indoctrinated in a very patriarchal and warring society based on whatever masculine factors were prevalent at the century.

[00:42:54] It may be why many of the lead males suffer from the lack of maternal love. Women could wield power temporarily, but only on behalf of a male figure, i.e. an heir too young to rule or a sick king. That was Alicent's role, however.

[00:43:09] She learned a lot too from Viserys and Otto how to rule and we saw wasn't against the protest of her father's choices. They would often be sent to broker pieces.

[00:43:20] Women were often perceived as being the bearer of such weaknesses and a mercy due to the plea slash negotiation on the male's behalf, further diminishing their political worth despite its astuteness. So, yeah.

[00:43:34] So we have two things that are being talked about here, both Alicent as a mother and Alicent as a woman trying to negotiate what kind of power she has versus the wisdom. She seems to be one of the wisest people on team green, I think we can say.

[00:43:53] And on the mother point, one thing that I've been noticing is that people are… I think people are too hard on Alicent as a mother. Rhaenyra is a bit warmer, but Alicent also had a much colder father.

[00:44:10] So she's passing on what she experienced and the way she was raised with a parent-child relationship to be. But I do think we see real concern for her children, like even Aegon. I think the one she likes least is Aemond.

[00:44:28] Well, and then what's that emotionally like to realize that your one child tried to murder the other one and that has this extreme ruthlessness imbibed in them. So, yeah, that's got to be hard.

[00:44:47] Right. I think as soon as he murdered Rhaenyra's child, she was like, and I'm done with you. Yeah. The idea… I think it's easy for us to pile on Alicent.

[00:44:58] And I think that's a fair point, a fair check by Christina to say, hey, check yourselves here a little bit. Let's back up and take a look. And I think it's a really good point because it's very easy to pile in on Team Green, right?

[00:45:11] There's between Cole and Aemond and Aegon and everybody. I mean, I'm Team Black. Team Black is much more my vibe. Right. Exactly. And they're drawing a very clear contrast between the different styles, between Rhaenyra and Alicent.

[00:45:27] But I think you also make a really good point, which is what did Alicent have? She had a very cold, calculating, distant father. She didn't have a second parent to offer any sort of counterbalance.

[00:45:40] Her husband was also a very distant and… I wouldn't say cold isn't the right word. He had a lot of heart and he had a lot of… Right. But it wasn't a great love.

[00:45:51] No. And she didn't fall in… They didn't fall in love together or start out together. She was attached to him and then he was sort of a… For the stability of the realm, all of these things.

[00:46:04] So she really did get kind of funneled into this really difficult position. I think in most, like the men, her husband, her lover, I think they all kind of loved Rhaenyra more. Sure. Right. Yeah. And she has a very different path as well.

[00:46:26] Rhaenyra has also gotten more love. She had more of a… Daemon might be being a little poop right now and that is who Daemon is. But she had more of a love match with him than Alicent ever got to experience. Right. Yeah. For sure. For sure.

[00:46:43] Yeah. So I think it's a tough beat for Alicent. So being a little bit… Keeping that in mind. Also, this interesting note about how male heirs, specifically heirs, might have been funneled and treated and educated and the kind of parental engagement that they would have between parents.

[00:47:08] I think that's a really interesting thing. I'm sure it'd be interesting to see internationally how that is, especially when we're talking about ruling classes. Certainly in Shogun, we saw a bunch of that on our screens this year with that series

[00:47:26] where the heir is very boxed in in many regards and treated in certain ways. But expected to be able to… And back to this show, Rhaenyra says,

[00:47:39] if I were a man, they would have taken a sword and put that in my hand and I would have been training that way. Instead, I've got a whole different pathway. Right. All right. Let's move on to Waverly D sends an email.

[00:47:52] So frequently we discuss the differences between Rhaenyra and Alicent in terms of their mothering. It came up again in your discussions of this episode. Okay. So following on again. A lot of times we don't read these emails when they're coming in. So these are fresh.

[00:48:05] I always love it when they dovetail back into each other. One thing I have yet to hear discussed is how the showrunners seem to be leaning into the effect of circumstances of conception on parent-child relationships.

[00:48:19] We had to endure a pretty awful scene of Alicent and Viserys engaging in intercourse. No joy for mom there. It's pretty clear the strong sons of Rhaenyra were conceived in love and passion as were her toe-headed twins.

[00:48:35] She and Laenor tried to conceive, but in Rhaenyra's words, we took no joy of it and it didn't work. Alicent's kids came out of the womb, colicky and unhappy and grew up into dysfunctional adults.

[00:48:49] Alicent may have been fond of Viserys, even loved him, but she was essentially raped to get heirs from the kingdom. I guess the moral of the story is that if you want kids to have happy futures and are easier to love,

[00:49:01] maybe loving the process of making those babies plays a role. There was actually a theory. It was called maternal imprinting back in our own real world. Back in the day it's obviously been debunked. They believed, for instance, the person we call the elephant man,

[00:49:20] they said in that sensationalist newspapers that his mother, there was a riot. Apparently this is true maybe I think. There was a riot when she was pregnant with him and an elephant escaped and they said she was so scared by that. That's why her son did it.

[00:49:35] He said elephant man, right. Well, I think too if we look at families are complex always have been complex. There isn't some sort of, oh, it's suddenly this way now as opposed to that way. Our family structures have always been evolving across culture and across time.

[00:49:54] I think one thing that I myself am adopted, I've been adopted at birth. I've always known that. It's always been part of my identity. I know for other people that's different. I know parents who've adopted.

[00:50:08] We have some really good friends who their child is adopted at a little bit older age. We know some other people who are about to take on a foster parent.

[00:50:20] I think from a parent standpoint, the act of declaring your identity as parent and starting to take those actions, that changes you and that sort of changes your brain psychology in some ways.

[00:50:32] You're starting to activate and starting to recognize and come to terms with a lot of hidden assumptions that you've had about life and about the way that you've been parented and the imprinting and the lessons that, imprinting I'm using loosely, but all of the patterning,

[00:50:50] the lessons that we observe and take as mammals. And then as a child, being able to go, that is my parent. That is me. That is my person. These are my people. Yeah, I don't think there is some interesting biological connectivity,

[00:51:07] but that at the same time we have frontal cortexes, we have brains that can override certain, you know. So there's a wide degree of adaptability within our species and within our cultures. And I think one thing that works is that having a rich parental engagement,

[00:51:28] be it one parent, two parent, you know, different forms of that. Because even now with foster and adoptive parents, that whole mix can be very different because you could still have connectivity to your biological parent,

[00:51:42] whereas your social legal parents are the people that might be raising you on a daily basis. So it's a really complex thing. But I think the thing that we all under, I think that we could agree on is that rich engagement is the important part. Love and engagement.

[00:51:58] That's the important. Well, yeah, I'd be remiss if I didn't bring up another idea from science, which is called epigenetics. And basically this is the idea that you have your DNA, but you can have little add-ons to your DNA based on your experiences.

[00:52:17] And this can cause, for instance, they think it might be linked to passing on anxiety, things like that, based on past traumas. But it is also possible to change your epigenetics. You can't change your DNA or, you know, CRISPR, so I will ignore that for the moment.

[00:52:32] Right, yeah, exactly. But naturally, you can't, you know, just will your DNA to be different. And it's not that with epigenetics, it's that easy either. But it is possible to influence that through things you say like better circumstances, nurture, more mindfulness, things like that. Right, right.

[00:52:53] And that's kind of at that meta level too as well. And then we have our as-lived daily experience and the things that... So it is a really complex thing.

[00:53:03] And the more engagement and support and love that we have, we know that as an individual, it creates a different set of conditions.

[00:53:13] And I think Waverly brings up a really good point here, that the household of Viserys and Alicent and being in the Red Keep and the castle and all of that kind of stuff was a very...

[00:53:24] Well, Rhaenyra was there, but, you know, strong, her baby daddy was there and engaged with the parents. And we saw the difference between engagement and lack of engagement, I think, had that effect. So, yeah. Complex stuff, obviously.

[00:53:42] So we're doing our best here to sort of weave and navigate. I'm sure people have opinions. And please send us your opinions. Yeah, we welcome the discourse on parental stuff.

[00:53:50] And I think that's one of, again, just to point it out is that this is what's interesting for us in our communities to talk about the real world relative to our fantasy world.

[00:54:01] Right, right. Because I think that that's the greatest thing that literature in general, but I do find that there's especially a place for it in speculative fiction and fantasy and sci-fi. Because you're questioning why is the world the way it is and what if it were different?

[00:54:16] And, you know, so, yeah. Exactly. It helps you process the world we actually find ourselves in when we put down the book. That's right. Well, Alicia, let's take a quick break and then we come back, we'll finish. We'll keep on with the email. Okay. And we're back.

[00:54:51] Okay, looks like we've got next up, Marilyn, our favorite Tolkien scholar. Do you want to take this one? Yeah, so she says, from Neil Shipley's blog, Watching the Swedes, in Swedish there is a term, Vargtimen, sounds like Vargtimen. Yeah, sorry, my Swedish pronunciation is so great.

[00:55:07] Vargtimen, which translates as Hour of the Wolf. It is used to specifically describe the time between 3 and 4 a.m. Although it sounds like an ancient concept, it was actually coined by Swedish film director Ingmar Bergman in his 1968 film of the same name. Interesting.

[00:55:25] He describes Vargtimen in the following way. The hour of the wolf is the hour between night and dawn. It is the hour when most people die, when sleep is the deepest and nightmares are the most vivid.

[00:55:37] It is the hour when insomniacs are hunted by their worst anxieties, when ghosts and demons are at their most powerful. The hour of the wolf is also the hour when most babies are born.

[00:55:47] Other academics believe the concept existed earlier than Bergman's time and that it refers to the fact that farmers would get up in the night to protect their wild stock from hunting wolves. Whatever the origin, the hour of the wolf has a definite mystical and almost terrifying implication.

[00:56:03] When was the last time you lay awake at 3 a.m. and chased your demons? All the insomniacs are raising their hands.

[00:56:11] One of my favorite pre-industrial era fun facts is that we do have evidence that in Europe at least it was common for people to sleep in two shifts before electric lights.

[00:56:27] They would get up usually before 3 a.m., so they would be back in bed by then, but more like 1 a.m. and they'd get up and write things or make babies.

[00:56:37] Yeah, there was even a thing in the American histories where there was a board that people would share a bed, siblings or related cousins or things like that. And then they would lay in bed and talk at night and this kind of stuff.

[00:56:57] But there's not a lot of history and I think even some people were questioning the whole binomial sleeping pattern thing. I don't know, there's a lot of myths. Well, just because it happens in some places doesn't mean it happened everywhere. We should be careful about that.

[00:57:10] But there is evidence that it happened at least in England. For sure. Yeah, and I certainly have family members and other people who are like, yep, I wake up and I'm awake. And then I'm awake for a while until I go back to sleep.

[00:57:24] And it's nothing that they do or try. It is a thing for sure. Following up, Abby, another part of her email, checked those Westerosi time measurements as opposed to how many legs his dragons have. I support you, George.

[00:57:46] Really can't be bothered with calendars. Just AC and BC convolutedly counting from their equals after Aegon's Conquest or before. Seasons, days of the week. They have religious services and seps every seven days or hours.

[00:58:01] There is an obsession with the nighttime as all the named hours of the night in order. Hour of the bat, hour of the eel, hour of the ghosts. Hour of the owl is this Alice Rivers preferred time.

[00:58:17] Yes, good commentary. Hour of the wolf, the darkest. Hour of the nightingale and then dawn. Interesting. What is hour of the eel about? That's strange. I don't know. Bats are usually... Eels are nocturnal, right?

[00:58:33] I don't know much about eels to be honest. I know that there's a lot of question about eels because they go from salt to freshwater and there's this whole thing where do they spawn and whatnot. Bats are crepuscular so active at dawn and dusk.

[00:58:46] I love bats. The most I know about eels, it's very Game of Thrones appropriate but there's these horrible eel pulling competitions. I won't describe it. I'm an animal lover. Please don't. Eels are important dietary item in the Netherlands. I know that. Yes, especially previously but still.

[00:59:10] Now it's a little bit more of a specialty I guess maybe. Sure, you can just get it at the polling it's called. You just eat it dried.

[00:59:21] I had a Dutch colleague that I worked with once and I brought them back eel where we lived. He didn't have access to it so he was very excited when I brought him eel. He was like, you want some? I was like, no thanks.

[00:59:32] The Hour of the Wolf though which I think is interesting. Statistically, is that true? Is that when most people die and most people are born? I don't know. I would not fault Marilyn's scholarship. Well she's quoting Neil Shukin's book.

[00:59:54] Right, that's true. All right. You want to switch us over to... Before we move on, there was a request on the Discord to explain the Dragon Legs reference. I don't know if you guys... I don't remember if you guys talked about that in the main episode.

[01:00:08] We did not. I referenced it but John hadn't researched the thing and then I only have sort of whatever the frothiest stuff is. Do you have a bit more information?

[01:00:18] Yes. I read the blog post. It's basically for anyone who's wondering why people keep talking about George R.R. Martin and Dragon Legs. He published a post on his own blog and his own website called Not A Blog.

[01:00:29] He was talking about the fact that in the show world, he very specifically says dragons have four limbs. So that's two back legs and two wings. He's frustrated that the Targaryen sigil should look like that as well.

[01:00:48] He's frustrated that the show version of four legs plus two wings has been creeping onto... now they're putting it on the covers of his own books. I think that was the key line for me.

[01:01:02] I was like, no, that is not the physiology of a dragon. So I support his right to scream into the night about the number of legs that his dragon should have. And somewhere along the line... And his science base too for his point.

[01:01:18] Sure. Yeah. And the way that the bat wings... He spells it out. Somewhere along the line, somebody made a design choice and then that crept in and then nobody questioned the design choice.

[01:01:28] He said he voiciferously protested and they just overruled him. So he took to his blog. So I say do it. Yeah, there you go. All right. Damon's magical mystery tour of Harrenhal. Do you want to pick up Abby's email from here?

[01:01:44] Yeah. So Abby says, going next to Harrenhal, I think the magical mystery tour has gone far enough. I like the first two times when we were in...

[01:01:52] A lot of people are complaining. Sorry. A lot of people are complaining about this. Like, where is it going? Why are we doing this?

[01:01:56] Yeah. I like the first two times when we were introduced to the sinister, gloomy vibe of the castle that may have induced some bad dreams for Damon meant to face his guilt, regrets and darker ambitions.

[01:02:08] The Witch of Harrenhal is weird enough. Do I love her as many people I hear do? Jury is still out.

[01:02:13] This episode, just why? Is all of... Is this all a projection? Prophetic vision of what the eyepatch will be up to on these grounds or what his dreams might look like?

[01:02:23] And now Damon is also channeling Bran the Builder. Is it all a dream? I need to see where this is going, if anywhere. If they wrap up the storyline in a satisfactory way, I will like it better.

[01:02:35] Claire Kilner, director of the episode, said on the official podcast that they had quote unquote fun shooting the scenes and that it is quote unquote poetic.

[01:02:44] Some friends of mine told me they love it and it is perfect. I can't find either the poetry or the perfection yet, but I will be glad if I am wrong. Three more episodes. There's still a way to go.

[01:02:57] You love Alice Rivers, right? I do. I think she's great.

[01:03:00] I think she's very interesting and I like the sort of dreamy Lynchian vibes of what's going on there. I love the way it's edited, especially where he seems to be having a dream and then he just finds himself in the middle of a group of people making official decisions at a table.

[01:03:20] It's very disconcerting. Yeah, exactly. I was inclined to like Alice because she's one of the two witchiest characters in this part of the story. I just find her interesting and I always say I want the TikTok of Taylor Swift. I knew you were trouble when you walked in.

[01:03:45] Yeah. When Damon first crossed her. Go ahead. Oh, sorry, what were you going to ask? I was going to say where are you on John's theory is that Alice herself is a vision?

[01:03:58] I feel like I can't. I've heard this theory and I see where it's coming from. I feel like I can't comment upon that. Okay, got it. Put a pin in it.

[01:04:09] Yeah, I mean if that is the case then that raises questions about how other things will be handled. That's all I'll say. It's very complex. Fair enough. I've heard a lot of people going like what is this? Why is this? Where is it going to go?

[01:04:29] I'm at the point where I have like you've been enjoying it visually as well as for Damon's character. I am on the side of okay, let's, you've established now. It's very clear that something weird is happening but how is that actually going to translate into whatever's next?

[01:04:50] I'm ready for it to tick forward. Even if it's incremental, it's fine but I do need a little bit of a forward motion as to how is this going to affect things, the rest of the story.

[01:05:02] All right, let's switch over. I'm going to read these next two sort of back to back. We've got Marilyn, our favorite Tolkien scholar and John. She sent by email and then we have John on the Discord and this is all about the Oedipus complex stuff.

[01:05:17] The main point of the story of Oedipus as I understand it is hubris. Oedipus thinks he can defy the destiny declared for him by the Delphi Oracle, which is linked to Apollo and so to deities.

[01:05:30] He spends most of his life post-prophecy looking for the killer of the former king whose throne he sits on and whose wife he married only to discover that it was he himself.

[01:05:41] His wife mother hangs herself and he blinds himself. There is more than a touch of Oedipus in Turin Tormbar for those who know the Silmarillion. And Daemon certainly has enough hubris to power all the villains in the kingdom.

[01:05:56] The complex is, okay, so now switching over. The complex, the Oedipus complex is a notion of Freud's that once they grow out of babyhood, men secretly resent their father's close relationship to their mother and secretly desire to have sex with their mothers to possess them and to overcome their fathers as a rival for their mother's affection.

[01:06:19] Properly developed men will have replaced their wish with a desire to marry women they are not related to. The demons of the world will have trouble with this.

[01:06:32] And then John on the discord, so listening to the pod and the guys brought up the Oedipus complex, it's interesting to note that this complex is incredibly prevalent in serial killers who target women and serial rapists.

[01:06:44] Now as Daemon is slowly losing his mind, is this the path they are suggesting he's headed? I think it's possible that if he goes full mad king. Now I haven't forged the psychology link in my maesters chain yet, so take this for what it's worth.

[01:07:00] And Alicia, you've studied psychology as part of your maesters team making. I'm sure you have some opinions on the Oedipal complex.

[01:07:11] Yeah, I mean, I think, like I said to John, I don't disagree with what he's saying. And I think if you want that specific angle explored well, watch the show Mindhunters.

[01:07:22] They talk a lot about that because this is also how it's a show about how they develop this psychological profiling of serial killers. And as part of my maesters chain, I did actually take a course on serial killers from self-proclaimed sociopath.

[01:07:38] But yeah, Marilyn's obviously she gives the more fuller academic contrast and the explanation of what exactly is involved from both perspectives where we have the play Oedipus Rex. And then of course, yes, there is also the Electra complex, which is kind of the opposite that comes from.

[01:08:00] Which I guess when I was skimming the Wiki article, I guess Jung, Carl Jung and Sigmund Freud were quite close friends. Jung was basically a sort of an acolyte of Freud in a way, but then they ended up diverging in opinions and having a fallout.

[01:08:19] Right. And I think the Electra complex is one of those differences of opinion where Freud just was like, yeah, it's all Oedipal. And Jung was saying, no, there's some differences here. I gather from the Wiki. I mean, I think the main thing was Jung's collective unconsciousness idea.

[01:08:36] And I think actually the main thing is that they're both kind of bastards, especially Freud.

[01:08:41] But at least not on their main divergence, but that was one of the little things was, you know, is there a, you know, the Electra versus the Oedipal, you know, and how they each characterized it. Freud was not very scientific, I have to say, but sorry, go ahead.

[01:08:57] Get that last in there. We didn't say that, that needs to be said. The thing that I wonder is, is this a conscious choice by the writers or are we adding our own sort of meta social context to the Oedipal storyline here?

[01:09:20] Be it Oedipus Rex and the Greek tragedy versus the Freudian psychology thing. Those things are clearly at play here. And it's just, I'm just curious as to what the writers were intending.

[01:09:35] Because sometimes writers will put in something like this and it'll just be a glancing reference or just a very general broad thing. And then the fans go all crazy in on it. Or other times they're like, no, we put this here intentionally because they were actually saying something.

[01:09:50] And I think at this point, I don't know whether it's intentional or not. I don't think it's necessarily intentionally about that.

[01:09:55] I think it's meant to draw a parallel with Amond because we already saw, you know, Damon following who we thought was Amond through the castle and then to turn around and see it was his own face with an eye patch. Which is very Luca and Dagobah.

[01:10:09] Right. And we've seen Damon, you know, we've talked about, sorry, Amond, we've talked about that. You know, Damon didn't get much of his mother's love because she died.

[01:10:17] Amond didn't get much of his mother's love because with all due respect to Alicent, who I defended earlier, she's a little bit of a frigid bitch and she has her reasons for that.

[01:10:27] But so in Amond's case, we see him going out and seeking that kind of more maternal style love in a sexual way from his favorite lady of the night.

[01:10:38] And both, so I think that the scene with Damon and his mother was meant to further draw the parallel between them. But both of their fathers are dead, so it can't really fully be the Oedipal complex here.

[01:10:52] Although I guess, yeah, I guess they want to become the great men they were in some way. Right. All right, let's move on. Fun times at the Red Keep for Team Green. You want to read Abby's? Yes. Abby says, off to King's Landing.

[01:11:09] I will not add anything in the very bad PR move, but that look Alicent gave Amond in the royal dagger that he carries now is a prize of war. She suspects that all is not as it seems.

[01:11:20] And the very bad PR move was Melis' head, which hurt my heart so much. Abby says, Helena knows. I would argue that this episode also had a shocking part and that is the gruesome health care administrations performed on the Aegon body.

[01:11:34] I don't know. Yeah, his brother doesn't hide his glee, just really cold. Is Aemon competent, knowledgeable? More than Aegon, sure. Better read and more proficient in sword fighting, but maybe less open to the council as he thinks himself the smartest, bestest of them all.

[01:11:51] And besides, he is still motivated by getting revenge for past slights over and over. It never seems enough. Will he make the best decisions? Maybe not. He sure loves his new role.

[01:12:01] I noticed how he is always manspreading. Yeah, with his arms and his hands. I call it Aemon spreading. I've taken pictures of this. He's always doing that. At the council table, also when he was standing over his brother's bed, Alicia, I'm saying I noticed that too.

[01:12:16] Trying to take up as much space as possible to show he's the big shot. I know show people said so, that we are now supposed to feel sympathetic towards Kristen Cole with his battle fatigue and reality check, but he made his own bed, as did Alicent.

[01:12:29] They are both realizing they are screwed and not just by each other. Not many options left for the Tower Jerk. Please try to keep Helena safe somehow. Yeah, I think that's something we were debating is will, outside of wartime, would Aemon be a good king or not?

[01:12:52] Would he understand the importance of a well-functioning economy and a healthy small folk population? And all of these kinds of things? Or is he truly some sort of sociopath who only cares about his own glory and ego?

[01:13:10] To me, it's yet to be seen. Because he's only ever existed within the power dynamic of being a second son. Right. I don't know if that works. I do love the triangle that they've created. It's not a traditional lover's triangle.

[01:13:28] Between Aemon, Aegon, and Alicent and Kristen Cole. So that's not a triangle, obviously. But I love the power dynamic that's flowing between all of them where Kristen Cole and Alicent are giving each other weird looks across the council table. All of it is just perfect deliciousness.

[01:13:49] By the way, another knife that Alicent got in her back, another power move, was Laris when they were at the council table. And he was like, hey lover boy, are you going to stick up for your woman or your ally, the man?

[01:14:05] I called it the second coldest thing that Laris has done. Only the first was actually rather hot. Fire emoji.

[01:14:13] But yeah, that was the moment where she was like, wow, everyone's really against me and all these horrible things are going to happen and I can't do anything to stop it.

[01:14:24] Yeah. And Kristen Cole having no choice but to go with Aemon because he's already backed him secretly. It's all delicious. Laris enjoyed that moment though, I think. He's like, yeah, keep your feet hidden?

[01:14:38] Yeah, yeah, you're not going to give me any more feet? Fine. I won't back at the council table.

[01:14:43] Although he's not from their point of view, from that sort of patriarchal point of view and the power structures that they're operating, the dynamic that they operate from, the only choice for him is to back Aemon.

[01:14:56] Well, I mean, Laris, he serves himself first and he's a rat who's going to jump to the ship that is burning the least. Yes. So we saw him jump just recently to Aegon and now he's like, oh, okay. Aegon's definitely burning the most. So Aemon it is.

[01:15:14] And if I lend to Alicent my power, then I diminish myself, right? Then I'm on a losing thing. Maureen D on the Discord, Master Orwell has a rough job. He's this episode's most valuable player. Yes, respect for Master Orwell. He's one of the coolest heads on Team Green.

[01:15:31] He is, he is. He's navigating a very tricky set of waters. I'm wondering if Aegon, Orwell, yes, will be conscious long enough to tell his mother the truth about what happened with Aemon or if Aemon cares enough about whether anyone knows to finish the job with a pillow.

[01:15:49] Aegon was a jerk, but that's a rough sentence. Alicent suspects already. Helena knows indeed. All right. Are the Greens winning? You want to read Cyrus?

[01:15:58] Yeah. Cyrus says, the Greens in general are more competent than the Blacks. Hmm. The Blacks are in disarray. It's a house fighting itself. Oh man, this is real world politics. Anyway, the house fighting itself with Daemon and Rhaenyra not working towards the same goal.

[01:16:15] For all the Greens guile, they are competent to their last council member, Tyland, Larys, and even Cole are competent in their role. So I think even with Aegon as the king, they were well positioned to win it all. It would be delicious irony if Otto started all this to prevent Daemon, who he considered may go come again, in taking throne only to have helped shape the Green heirs in doing the same.

[01:16:41] Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. The modern political thing is very... That's good. But as we were saying before, right? Having story to help us reflect on the real world I think is really important. Yeah.

[01:16:56] Whether they're direct parallels or direct tie-ins or not. I think Du Bois this season was doing that. Were you keeping up with Du Bois? I kind of checked out after episode three. Oh yeah. No, I've watched... I'm halfway through the finale.

[01:17:07] Okay. I heard the finale is a banger. Everybody's really... Yeah, well I have to say the actress who plays Starlight, kudos to her. That must have been so fun to play the finale. I won't say more than that for spoilers.

[01:17:18] Yeah. So yeah, it sounds like a mixed bag. Anyway, yes, very good comment in terms of the parallels to what we're doing.

[01:17:32] Well yeah, because we know... Sorry, this is a Game of Thrones spoiler, not a Fire and Blood spoiler per se. But we know that there will be a Mad King coming. And I think that it just has a lot to do with... These are members of the same family fighting each other just because they're told that they're gods. And who is the most god?

[01:17:53] I will... As the non-book reader of our crew right now, it'll be really interesting to see how they line the tracks up between this history and what we know from Game of Thrones. Better Call Saul tried to do this work and I think they pulled it off.

[01:18:12] When you're doing the prequel, it's letting the story proceed as it would for those characters, but then actually connecting the rails so that the train car can roll smoothly from one storyline to the other. It's a lot of work. Luckily it's laid out for them in a book.

[01:18:31] Yes, indeed it is.

[01:18:33] All right, Nate regarding Aemond and Team Green. Am I a psychopath for thinking that Aemond taking over is a good thing? Every outlet is talking about him like he's a serial killer, but it was his doofus brother who was siring bastards for the Fighting Pits.

[01:18:51] It's Cole who has the hatred heart on for Rhaenyra and it's Daemon who is quite literally a serial killer. I don't think he's going to get everything right, but the way he took command right away and has an obvious air of competency, efficiency, and command is kind of nice to see.

[01:19:08] Someone in one of the pods mentioned him as a budding Magor the Cruel and I honestly do not see that on screen. Maybe that's how it goes in the books. Yes, did he try to kill his brother? Sure, but can you blame him both on an emotional and practical level?

[01:19:24] Aegon is an idiot. Everyone on Team Green is better off with Aemond in control. Yes, so just furthering the conversation about Aemond and Aemond's competency and whether or not we should have him. You've got thoughts?

[01:19:39] Yeah, I mean I just think that how many dictators were raised with people saying, well they're really competent and efficient and have a strong command. Good point.

[01:19:50] I mean I see Nate's point and I think we should just remember what the actor who plays Otto Hightower, he said, they're all horrible people and I can't wait to see them die.

[01:20:01] It's true. It's true. And you know we had a recent thing here in the United States where in one way somebody could take advantage of that and then actually declared, hey I'm not going to do that. I'm going to stay within the norms as they've been laid down as opposed to this weird ruling that would give me a whole bunch of other power.

[01:20:22] I think as much as some people would like that person to do that thing at the same time, once you start breaking and busting through norms, as you say, once people start to exercise power beyond these norms it's almost impossible to stop. It's a slippery slope.

[01:20:39] Right. Because then the next person and the next person. You have to think about the down chain effects of that. I don't disagree with Nate's point though because Eamon does seem like a much more competent person. Right, right.

[01:20:50] I feel it. I totally feel it. All right, you want to grab Cyrus's?

[01:20:55] Sure. So is Eamon taking over a good thing? It's great for Team Green but that does not exclude him from being a bad person. Being a bad person and being great for your cause are not mutually exclusive. Good point.

[01:21:08] Eamon is a kinslayer and an attempted kin-slash-kingslayer in Westeros that is seen as pretty quote-unquote evil. If we are supposed to hate the phrase in the Game of Thrones series for violating guest rights, which is of course the Red Wedding, kin-slash-kingslaying is not far behind.

[01:21:27] Eamon is a quote-unquote problematic fave. You can like him and compliment his competence and yet have problems with him as a moral character. In short, I think people complaining about Eamon are the ones who have an issue with his moral character and not his competency.

[01:21:43] Good summation and this is great because this is the dialogue. It's like oh, they're making us root for obviously bad people. Well it's also when you have bad choices.

[01:21:55] I agree that Eamon seems better than Aegon but Aegon we did see also at the beginning of the season. I was surprised they did make me feel a bit of like oh, look at him. He's trying a little bit.

[01:22:08] Like he doesn't know what he's doing because he's not trained and he's not thinking this through. He's just impulsive but he was like oh, you lost your flock. You need money for metal. I'll give it to you. He's just too incompetent.

[01:22:23] Yeah, it's a good point. And so he's trying and yeah, it's brilliant stuff. Okay, moving on. Team Green, Alyson, Sub-Zero. I love that scene where Alyson played her hand at the council meeting and got slapped down.

[01:22:36] For a full minute she was just having a panic attack and they made everyone else's voice sound like you were listening through noise reduction headphones. You can almost feel what she's feeling. Brilliant direction.

[01:22:47] And it was such a rookie move on her part. This is where Otto is sorely missed. She needed to canvas the council one-on-one ahead of time instead of getting embarrassed in public and losing any remaining cred she might have had.

[01:23:01] I have to say this scene really reminded me. I don't think I've had a full blown panic attack, a real panic attack ever in my life. But this one touched on a scene, a situation for me once where I was going in.

[01:23:17] I was trying to angle for some employment related things and somebody just basically shut me down and said, well, you don't have this particular degree. Therefore, we can't even consider you, even though I had more experience than probably half the people in that building.

[01:23:33] And it was just such a gut punch. And I remember hearing that blood rush and just that emotional like, oh, the world is not like I thought it was. And this is really awful. And I don't know what to do.

[01:23:46] And I think our brains process certain emotional responses. I think somebody's done some functional MRI mapping where you get some bad news or somebody breaks up with you. Your brain's processing centers are almost similar as if you were physically assaulted or somebody punched you or something like that.

[01:24:09] So that physiological response, I think, is a really great depiction on screen. Yeah. So someone who has had a history of anxiety attacks and went to such an extent that I went to school to study this.

[01:24:26] One of the reasons why I got my psychology chain to my mind, my psychology links on my master's chain is that it is like at the time, you know, people often when they're having anxiety attacks, sometimes they think they're dying.

[01:24:38] I haven't had that, but it does have what they did well with her is how things become a little bit fuzzy. And you often see people like working their hands because it's a full physiological response where there's cortisol, the stress hormones just flooding your body.

[01:24:53] And like you can even get the claw where your hand is just like paralyzed because of stress running through you like a live wire. So it is really it's intense.

[01:25:05] Yeah, for sure. And to spend a whole minute was really incredible in terms of screen time and dramatic direction. All right. Who's up next? Christina J., I think you want to get this one.

[01:25:17] Yeah, sure. You asked what power Allison still has. She has sent Otto to an on an unknown mission. Yeah. Don't forget Otto and Darren. They finally said the name Darren. Agen is isolated more than ever and has no one on his side and desperately needing his mother.

[01:25:34] He can trust no one but his mother. Wow. If she transitions from subservient to those around her and uses weaknesses against each other, I'd argue she could do quite a bit.

[01:25:44] Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is now Allison's because she can no longer be the voice at the table in the council. She has to think more like Laris.

[01:25:55] Yes. And I made this point on the main pod that this episode is when Raniera found her power and found that she's like, OK, she has this internal realization that, OK, I didn't learn strategies and how to field armies and, you know, create supply chain lines and stuff.

[01:26:17] But there's all these people around me who do know. So how do I activate them? How do I enroll them? How do I get them to, you know, to balance and work with them?

[01:26:28] And I think Allison has yet to do that. Right. And I think this message points that out is she needs to start to learn how to manipulate things behind the scenes. Can she? Does she have the tools? That's a good question. Yeah.

[01:26:44] All right. Team Black, Daemon, Davy Mac on Discord. I just want to say that I'm digging the Daemon stuff. There's also some funny exchanges. And I think it's important to spend time with him if they are setting up a third party that will be vying for the throne.

[01:27:00] I would the point that I like about this is this is where we're getting a little bit of that humor relief. We talked a lot about season one being really good, really dramatic, but also very dry and having a little bit of comic relief with Daemon and being in Harrenhal and Sir Simon.

[01:27:18] It does provide that extra little bit of lubrication that we want. So with very difficult stuff, we need a little bit of humor release and it's finally balanced. And I think they're doing it really well.

[01:27:30] Yeah. And Lisa C says, here's my take on Daemon's dreams in this episode as I continue to explore the thematic use of sex in the House of the Dragon.

[01:27:40] Daemon has always been a sexual creature using and confusing sex with power. See young Rhaenyra and Missaria as Daemon strives to reclaim his sense of power.

[01:27:49] He subconsciously becomes intimately drawn to the one woman he believes he has always empowered him and never looked down on him, his mother. Right.

[01:27:58] She wasn't real. So, I mean, she wasn't alive to within the walls of Harrenhal, his solitude and nightmares under the influence of Alice Rivers powers revert him to a helpless state in which he seeks the comfort of his mother as his ambition slips away from him.

[01:28:13] Daemon's superiority complex and sense of power and greatness over others appear to be rooted in the idea that he was his mother's favorite child. So his vision of having sex with her twistedly brings him closer to the original source of this confidence and authority.

[01:28:28] His dream of Elissa tells him that he's stronger than Viserys, Rhaenyra, Aegon and any other claim to the throne. And he responds with violence and betrayal as he fully embraces his desire to be king.

[01:28:40] The visions Alice is giving him are making him confront what he's become since his mother's death. Daemon has been rejected by everyone he so desperately sought power over.

[01:28:50] Rhaenyra, Viserys, the Black Council, his own children and now refuses to wash away the blood on his hands as he further pursues the favoritism and superiority he could lose growing up with. He lost growing up without his mother.

[01:29:06] Pretty good analysis. Pretty good summation. I like it, Lisa C. I think you've put your finger right on it. He really is starting to believe his own bullshit here, right? Right. Yeah. But then every once in a while he gets a counterpoint where his former wife…

[01:29:30] The one in the veil? Oh my gosh. Abby. No, no, no. Corlys is in line. Oh my gosh. Lena. I'm seeing her face. Yeah, Lena. Yeah, where she's like, hey, what about our children? Things are getting crazy right now.

[01:29:44] So yeah, this whole thing is his inner brain turned outwards, right? So we're seeing these warring conversations within him. But yeah, clearly his own sense of self-aggrandizement being spoken through his mother. This Oedipal dream with his mother. Yeah. Really good stuff. Yep.

[01:30:10] All right. We'll go ahead. Let's see. Team Black, Bela. Jean-G on our Discord says, The Bela lines hit hard about Lena. Yeah. Really good stuff. Thoughts?

[01:30:39] I'm seeing a lot of Bela love on the Discord, on Twitter. And yeah, I completely get it. My heart is still mending itself from Reynice, but I'm sure Bela's going to be my fave by the end of this season.

[01:30:55] It's true. Especially that because they did have to address the fact that Corlys, Bela's right there. Why wouldn't he? We don't want to overpaint him as sexist.

[01:31:06] Although there's definitely a piece of that in there we've seen. He's conflicted. It's complex for him as it is for a lot of men, I think.

[01:31:14] So he does offer Bela and she just comes back with it. Just so strong. Like, nope, no. I am blood and fire. Driftmark must pass the salt and sea. There's no contradicting that. Yeah. It was solid. Yeah. Absolutely solid. All right. You want to pick up Abbey's?

[01:31:34] Yeah. So Abbey says, so does this episode confirm that Alinda Massey, Rhaenyra's hairstylist is and was a Massaria girl? She knew which gold cloak to approach and also a Massaria guy apparently.

[01:31:49] What do we think Alinda's mission is? What does she bring to feed the discontented and what will Massaria feed Rhaenyra she is discontented too, isn't she? And she met up with Diana.

[01:32:00] So Diana is the girl or young woman who we saw Alicent giving a moon tea to last season to get rid of a Targaryen bastard from Aegon. Sorry. Abbey's going to get on me about mixing up all these names.

[01:32:17] No, it's okay. It's okay. As long as we try to correct that's the- I know their names. Sometimes the wrong one comes out. Look people, podcasting's hard. Give us a little slack.

[01:32:28] Georgia R. Martin, I feel like when he was writing his books, he was like, future podcasters are going to hate me. Twist my mustache.

[01:32:38] But anyway, yeah. So Diana who Aegon raped her and she was given a moon tea. And so she obviously will have a specific beef with Katine Green. And yeah, so that's very interesting that she went to see her specifically. And yeah, it seems that she's a Massaria girl.

[01:33:00] I'm going to jump forward a little bit to tie in to this. Regarding the small folk, Nate on the Discord said, the one thing I don't agree with so far is close the gates of order. Your city has no food. You don't keep people in to starve.

[01:33:15] They need to read up on sieges. And then you, Alicia, said in the book it was Alicent who was blamed for shutting the gates out of King's Landing.

[01:33:24] So going back to this discontent and what Alinda is bringing to feed the discontented, I think when you have an urban center like this, and I was saying this on the main pod, there's a high coefficient to trigger the pent up energy that is there,

[01:33:46] the energy that is building up among the small folk. And once you release that, it's dangerous and deadly and a lot of poor innocent people are going to die.

[01:33:56] But damn if it's not a major blow to whoever is holding on to that city and needing to hold on to that city. And you're really in a difficult position because if you let them out, they're going to go so fear and discontent into the countryside.

[01:34:17] But you can't keep them in because then it's just going to build as a pressure cooker. And this is where somebody with skills like auto or with Lannister daddy, I'm blanking from Game of Thrones. No, Tyrion's father. Tyrion's dad. Tywin, Tywin, Tywin.

[01:34:38] Tywin Lannister, thank you. With Tywin, they have the skills and the understanding to be able to manipulate and work that kind of thing. But just to shut the gates, I think like Nita is saying, you're really endangering yourself.

[01:34:51] And I think this is a counterpoint to Aemond, like is Aemond a good ruler? Clearly he's missing something here. And this is something where he hasn't studied this particular aspect of the life of the realm.

[01:35:06] And then if you do this, you're actually creating a powder keg right underneath you. Definitely. You want to pick up Athena? Yeah, so Athena says, the greens need to keep the economy of the war machine turning so they keep the people in the city.

[01:35:23] But it doesn't do anything for the people now trapped inside and starving. Without the greens forcing on some sort of sustainable solution so people aren't starving to death soon, I definitely see riots being set up in the future.

[01:35:36] The food situation is something the green propaganda machine could blame Rhaenyra for since they are blockaded. But that could be cold comfort to the commoners. Greens definitely need auto back to help some of this, I think. And yeah, just continuing with Cyrus.

[01:35:55] The show is really coding the small folk have a role to play and when their ability overreaches there are consequences.

[01:36:00] It's curious how in season one it was Daemon who was telling Rhaenyra not to discard the view of the small folk and it's the greens that are undermining them.

[01:36:08] So one thing I have to say, I saw a few people saying online is they thought, what do you think? Should the greens have fed Melissa's meat? No. As Ulf pointed out, or was it Ulf or Hugo who pointed that out anyway?

[01:36:25] Should they have fed that to the people and told them it was something else? This is what some people are proposing online. I get why people would say that.

[01:36:35] And to go back to our primary world, one of the things that if you look at where we eat, and I know for vegetarians and vegans this, you know, I'm going to talk about meat consumption here.

[01:36:49] The further up the food chain you get, the less palatable the food is and less nutrition. So we want to eat as low without getting into moral judgments or ethical judgments or anything about that. But the lower down on the food chain you go, the more nutritious.

[01:37:10] So if you're eating plants and vegetables, you're taking from the sun. And then if you're eating the herbivores, which eat those things, that nutrient cycle coming up is still sufficient enough to be able to provide nutrition.

[01:37:23] The further you get up, that's why people don't eat lions and wolves. We don't eat that meat because there's no nutritional value for us in it. I can say that house cats, I know, need an obscene amount of protein. Yeah, they're obligate carnivores.

[01:37:41] Yeah. And I am like the complete opposite of that where I've done genetic testing and I have the genes that don't process protein as well. So yeah, I wouldn't want to eat something that relies solely on protein because yeah.

[01:37:58] You're further up and I don't know the biochemistry of that, but the further up you move from that, yeah, it doesn't do you any good. But I understand why people would go there. Oh, that's just a big thing.

[01:38:09] Plus, I don't know if I want a bunch of acidic bile meat. I don't know. That's true. It comes pre-charred. Yeah. Good one. Funny, but still. So yeah, I think Athena has made a really good point here. There's a whole bunch of different ways you could crank this.

[01:38:30] The other thing that I don't really understand is, okay, you've got an ocean blockade, so you're stopping food coming across from the sea. But behind you, you have the King's Wood, you have the Reach, you have the High Garden. That's the Reach, I think, right?

[01:38:45] And you have the Riverlands. Those are all productive agricultural lands. What's the difficulty here? Is it because we're in a fall situation and winter is starting to set in? Yeah, basically, it's the positioning and the way that who is where.

[01:39:01] And yeah, they're blockaded, basically, from getting food in from their allied food producers. But you have production land behind you. So this is also why there's this big rush for the Riverlands, because that's in the middle.

[01:39:16] And so they need to be able to control passages to food producing regions that are allied with them somewhere. So this is where a lot of this season is about, how do we block off waterways? Because that's where, obviously, the Valerians are on Team Black.

[01:39:31] So they've got the waterways. The Pikes, we're not talking about them yet. They're on the other side of the continent. I'm just surprised that the Red Keep is so dependent on ocean-based food consumption. It's a fortress of sorts. It's on a rocky outcrop.

[01:39:51] The fact that it's surrounded by water, that's a good defensive position, which is why it was developed as a capital. But now it makes it a good place to withstand a siege. But it can make it easier to cut off in this way.

[01:40:07] I guess also when these are being settled, you don't necessarily consider, although this definitely comes back, that your family who owns the castle next door is going to be your enemy blocking you.

[01:40:20] Well, I think too it goes to this wider point of, fine, you can study battles and you need generals and whatnot to understand, well, if I've got the high ground, then I can attack a Don and all of those sort of battle strategies.

[01:40:33] But the real war comes down to supply. And can you keep your people fed and keep your troops in the field and all of that? As they said a bunch of times in the season, when the dragons are doing combat, their consumption is way up.

[01:40:48] And if we don't have enough food for them to be able to do that, Vhagar is depleted was a line. That you need a lot of supply chain to keep an army in the field or to keep a dragon in the air.

[01:41:02] And all of that is pointing to war is not just about two groups of people squaring off against each other. It's the entire economy that supports that single incident.

[01:41:15] Yeah, there was one thing that I thought was really done well in the Song of Ice and Fire books that didn't necessarily make it onto. And I don't hate the end of Game of Thrones the way Jon does.

[01:41:27] But and I understand that they had to cut certain things. But I was disappointed to see that perspective that you get in the books of how all of these machinations of the lords affects the people on the ground who are basically being forgotten about by them.

[01:41:42] Yeah, that's lost a little bit. Yeah. All right. Final email, Kyle M. by email regarding Hugh the Scorpion Maker. The next steps here are simple. Number one, Hugh gets angry about getting stiffed for his scorpions. Two, Hugh takes action by shooting Aemon and Vhagar out of the sky.

[01:41:59] Three, Aegon, now recovering and grateful, apologizes and pays him double. Four, Hugh adopts the rat catcher's dogs and names it Scorpion. Five, the presence of the dog helps Hugh's child on the path to recovery. This is brilliant. I love this.

[01:42:14] Six, they buy a boat and sail to the Summer Isles. Seven, Hugh opens a beach bar that serves umbrella drinks. Kokomo plays as we fade to black. And then that's just the end of the show. Unexpected series finale with happy peach and ding. Books be damned.

[01:42:30] God, people would be so mad. I might never stop laughing. And then the dragon – the dog flies by on the dragon and gives you a thumbs up. I love it. Yeah.

[01:42:41] No, the dragon is pulling the parasailors or, you know, they've got people doing the parasailing behind the dragon. With the dog as the pilot. Oh, good one. All right. Well, thanks for giving us a funny final send-off, Kyle.

[01:42:54] I think we need to wrap it up really quick because we've got a whole different schedule change. So, Acolyte, you're wrapping up on that. You've got a final couple of episodes coming. Right. So I'm going to do – because John's under the weather, I'm releasing this week's wrap-up.

[01:43:12] It's going to be just me, but we're going to focus on the recap and the lore dive. So that when John's back on his feet, we're going to get his takes and talk through all the feedback that we've been getting in.

[01:43:24] And then we're going to do a season wrap-up with a group of us in about a week or so. Yeah. That'll be fun. And then, of course, other stuff continues on the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast. And if you haven't, definitely check out the recent episodes about visions.

[01:43:39] There's three episodes of Star Wars Visions, an animated anthology series about Sith of the Old Republic. Very cool. I'm going to defer to our Discord.

[01:43:48] There is a channel there that John keeps up to date with all of the upcoming shows for all of our affiliates and our main feed. So check that out. We're continuing on with Hot Lore Summer. So there's still many things happening.

[01:44:02] I think it's going to be a hot lore fall and winter as well. I think 2025 is just hot. Yeah, it's super content year. Yeah. We've got Dune Prophecy.

[01:44:12] Right. I was just bringing up that Dune Prophecy is going to be at the same time as it looks like as the next Star Wars show, Skeleton Key. And then Pachinko is at the same time as – yeah, Skeleton Crew.

[01:44:24] Skeleton Key is a movie, which is a fun movie. Pachinko, that's earlier. Isn't that the same time as Rings of Power and Agatha? Yes. And the new Alien Romulus movie is dropping on August 16th as well. And I've got a bunch of content that I'm working on there.

[01:44:42] I have to rework some things. Did you see the final trailer they just released? I did and I haven't been able to process it yet and be with it.

[01:44:48] But it really does open up the world in some ways and gives us a lot more on what we already knew from the first trailer. So the two trailers work really well together. But I have thoughts. Yes, I definitely do.

[01:45:01] My friend, Marcin, who Star Wars timeline podcast listeners know, said that he hasn't been this excited for a film in five years. Yay. Very good. Very good. All right. So check the show notes for the link tree for all of our affiliate links.

[01:45:15] Check the Discord for the schedule. Alicia, you will be back here next week in my stead. Thank you for that. Feedback, HOTD at thelorehounds.com or head over to thelorehounds.com and go to the contact page and you can leave a voicemail or contact form.

[01:45:32] Oh, quick plug for the blog, The Lore Brewery, Brian8063, editor-in-chief, anybody, not only subscribers, but anybody in our community. If you feel so inclined to write an article, go to the blog and just go to our website, lorehounds.com.

[01:45:48] Go to the blog link and there's an article posted in there that has our submission guidelines. And Brian will be happy to work with you on taking your submission, getting it into a format and putting it up.

[01:45:59] And again, exploring these different ideas about how these fantasy shows – I think friend of the pods, Doof71, just wrote an article about his personal experiences as a combat veteran related to Star Wars. With pictures?

[01:46:15] Yes, with pictures. So anything, if you want to talk about Oedipus, you want to talk about Wheel of Time and magic and the eye-to-eye, whatever, it's all fair game. We need Ocean Mirror articles. Okay, there you go. I don't know what that is, but we need them.

[01:46:31] It's an Acolyte reference. You do know what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, perfect. We do need some Acolyte articles. The power of one versus the power of many. There's a lot of good material there.

[01:46:41] All right, we don't have the fancy music because I didn't preload it, blah, blah, blah. So I'll just run through the – oh, you want to give me a little scat bebop? Discord server boosters.

[01:46:57] Narls, Aaron K., Tiller the Thriller, Dark of the Ninjas, Doof71, CaptainJinji56, and Athena Adelia, thank you for boosting the server.

[01:47:06] Loremasters, Samartian, Michael G., Michelle E., David W., Brian P., SC, Peter O. H., Bettina W., Adam S., Nancy M., Doof71, Ryan8063, Frederick H., Sarah L., Gareth C., Eric F.,

[01:47:24] Matthew M., Sarah M., DJ Miwa, Andra B., Kwong U., JediJediBob, Nathan T., Alex V., Aaron T., Subzero, Aaron K., Dally V., Mothership61, Narls, Kathy W., Stuart B., Jeffrey B., Elisa U., and always good things to those who come last, Adriane.

[01:47:46] Thank you all so very much for being Loremasters subscribers. Thank you to everyone who subscribes. Thank you to everyone who listens. We don't care if you're a subscriber or not, we're just glad that you're here and that you get to hang out with us and join us on the Discord where you can nerd out and enjoy a good conversation.

[01:48:03] Elisa, thank you again for stepping up and stepping in. Glad to get to chat about this episode. Yes, it's good to have a triarchy, right?

[01:48:11] Yeah. Give the people a different perspective. And I promise we'll take that spoilers comment on board and when it's two book readers, we will watch ourselves.

[01:48:20] Very good. All right, everybody, we'll see you. Well, I won't see you, but you'll see Elisa and John next week for episode six. Until then.

[01:48:40] And add free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening.

[01:48:58] Okay, David, this is where we're supposed to choose a side, green or black. John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life. So we're not fighting? I thought this is where HBO wanted us to pick sides and fight and stuff.

[01:49:17] Don't worry, I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod, but we seem to agree on one thing. We both really like this show. The politics, the drama, the lore. It was made for the Lorehounds.

[01:49:28] And since we just finished recapping season one, we couldn't be more ready to defend our black queen in the Dance of the Dragons.

[01:49:35] And with the season pass option in Supercast, listeners can get early ad-free access to each weekly scene by scene deep dive. Plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections. See you in the Lorehounds podcast feed each week for our dragonfire hot, but probably positive takes.

[01:49:52] The Lorehounds House of the Dragon coverage is also safe for team green consumption. Side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore, a heartened conflict with itself, and an inescapable urge to read the book Fire and Blood by George R.R. Martin. Dragon seeds may experience burning.