Oneshot - Fargo - S05E05-10

[00:00:01] Okay, David, this is where we're supposed to choose a side. Green or black? John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life! So, we're not fighting? I thought this is where HBO wanted us to, like, pick sides and fight and stuff.

[00:00:24] Don't worry, I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod. But we seem to agree on one thing. We both really like this show. The politics, the drama, the lore! It was made for The Lorehounds.

[00:00:36] And since we just finished recapping season one, we couldn't be more ready to defend our Black Queen in the Dance of the Dragons.

[00:00:42] And with the season pass option in Supercast, listeners can get early ad-free access to each weekly scene-by-scene deep dive, plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections. See you in The Lorehounds podcast feed each week for our Dragonfire Hot, but probably positive, takes.

[00:01:00] The Lorehounds House of the Dragon coverage is also safe for team green consumption. Side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore, a hardened conflict with itself, and an inescapable urge to read the book Fire and Blood by George R.R. Martin. Dragon seeds may experience burning.

[00:01:29] Welcome to The Lorehounds One-Shots, where the Lorehounds, your guides to Minnesota nice. I'm David. I'm John, and this is our season wrap coverage for season five of Fargo by FX on Hulu.

[00:01:42] Can I just say, no, we have to we have to say this. Stop adding these, you know, FX by on Hulu by Paramount on HBO. Stop it. Stop it. Networks. It's on Hulu. But FX is on linear TV. That's the thing. I don't care.

[00:02:02] Linear linear TV is not dead yet. I'm not dead yet. All right. Well, in this podcast, anyway, we're going to talk about our overall thoughts and feelings for the season, mostly focusing on the final episode, I think.

[00:02:16] At the end of the podcast, we're going to talk about our upcoming podcast schedule. And we'll also throw in some information about our Patreon and all the different benefits that we offer if you choose to join us in our community.

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[00:02:58] We've also got a discord, lots of fun, friendly folks over there. And links for all of that stuff are in the show notes below. All right, John, let's get started. We both have seen the entirety of season five of Fargo.

[00:03:14] We didn't do this one as full coverage and, you know, they're scheduling real life wise. I'm kind of glad we didn't because it would have been difficult.

[00:03:26] But at the same time, I really kind of wish we had been able to do the deeper coverage of this because this was a really impactful season of television. And I really feel that Noah Hawley has hit a new height for Noah Hawley for what he does.

[00:03:47] I don't know. How are you feeling about the overall season? Yeah, I think it's great. Incredible. You're fresh to Fargo. I am fresh to Fargo. I've not watched a Fargo before. This is my year of new franchise.

[00:03:59] I'm doing this and do a true detective where I'm hopping in. I'm coming in excellent cold, I guess. Not hot, but these two shows are very cool. Yeah, they are both pretty cold. But yeah, it's it's great. I was you know, I was waiting for the finale.

[00:04:13] And last year, I feel like we had a year of like incredible seasons with terrible finales. And so my anxiety was going higher as we neared this finale. And then I watch it and it's much more than I thought it would be.

[00:04:30] Absolutely. There's no way to predict where this episode would have ended up, I think. I think really what surprised and delighted me, we like to say that, is that I'm 17 minutes into the episode, I think it was. The main plot has resolved. Right.

[00:04:49] And you're like, 30 minutes left in the episode. Where is this going to go? What is going to happen? Yeah, I literally clicked up on my room when I was like, I feel like that was really short. Oh, there's a lot more. What are we going to do here?

[00:05:01] I could never have predicted this. It was so good. The characters were so well developed and the arcs felt so earned. For example, Gator, that felt earned. It was a small step. It was not a big turn the leaf.

[00:05:21] It was not him becoming an angel all of a sudden. It was him doing something that was still a little bit selfish and it was based in revenge, but it was doing the right thing in the moment. Right.

[00:05:32] And Juno Temple, I think, deserves multiple Emmys for this role. Just the way she could change her facial expression. She came out of nowhere on this season. I was not expecting this.

[00:05:47] And when episode one, when I watched it, I was like, huh, I don't know how I feel about this. She's missing her accent. I don't know what's going on.

[00:05:57] And I had no idea that she had this depth and range and the ability to hold the screen in this way. It was absolutely a revelation. Absolutely revelation that she has this kind of range is incredible.

[00:06:16] And the way that when she's talking to Munch in those last few seconds, the way that her expression changes from fearful to angry back to fearful, then to kind, cautiously kind, genuinely kind. Stern mother. Showing a tiny bit of fear again. Yeah, Stern mother.

[00:06:38] Showing a tiny bit of fear again, but then choosing kindness in the end. And that is probably what saves her family. Oh man, that's something that AI couldn't do that. Right? That's a human being showing human emotions. And that was just incredible.

[00:06:58] It was an incredible experience to watch it. It felt, honestly, I think that the amazing thing about this is, and they even say this in the episode, you know, the action, it happens in a flash and then it's over. Right? You don't even realize it happened.

[00:07:12] That was less exciting than the scenes with Munch. Where you were just sitting on your edge of your seat waiting for what was going to happen next. Right. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, I cut you off. Yeah.

[00:07:26] Actual action was emotional and was conversational and was domestic and was routine. And so much more fulfilling and satisfying as opposed to just, oh, another shootout. I mean, how many shootouts in big explosion television and movies do we have? We've seen a lot of that. Right.

[00:07:46] But to have these two characters on the precipice with the stakes, with Scotty and what's her husband's name? I'm blanking. Wade. Wade, thank you. Wayne, sorry. Wayne, Wayne, Wayne. In the balance. Right? That's what was at balance there. That's what was at stake there.

[00:08:04] It was so much more enjoyable than just some more shoot them up. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. And I think that this show really challenges the way that we view media and challenges the tropes that we expect out of our media. So this is where I've been banging.

[00:08:31] I can't say banging the gong, but I've just highlighted this a few times. That there are a couple of directors out there who are working right now who really have my attention.

[00:08:44] Not only because they're delivering good entertainment, but that they're saying something and they're saying something that's culturally relevant. They're pushing the boundaries of the medium that they're working in.

[00:08:58] And they have this incredible ability to blend these sociological commentary with the medium without wagging fingers in our faces or hands on hips kind of things.

[00:09:14] But really taking up these ideas and toying with them and putting them, winding them up a little bit and then putting them into play and seeing how things go. So certainly Sam Esmail and Noah Hawley.

[00:09:29] And now I'm looking at Issa Lopez for True Detective because I think she's going to be another one of these directors that can do this. I'm not sold on her yet. I'm waiting to be sold. Yeah, sure.

[00:09:42] I think that the show is good, but I think that this show does something on a different level so far. Because that show's not that deep in yet. No, it's not. I'm putting internet points. I'm putting my personal stash of internet points on this wager. That's fine.

[00:09:59] I'm not betting against her. I hope that it rises to this level. I'm just not sure I'd put that in the same echelon. Man, I can't talk tonight. I wouldn't put it in the same category. You know what I mean? Sure.

[00:10:13] So for me, she's in there with these other directors and taking us somewhere, pushing the medium and saying something about culture and society while also being entertaining. I think that's the – these are these little hallmarks for me that are making that – these shows interesting.

[00:10:34] I don't know that I would put – I mean, True Detective is a very – has a different edge where Fargo and what Sam S. Male does like with Mr. Robot and stuff like that where they're slightly fantastical. But I suppose True Detective is as well.

[00:10:47] But anyway, let's – I don't want to debate that right now. Yeah, I wouldn't say that's less – I wouldn't say True Detective is less fantastical than Fargo. No, that's why I just retracted. Yeah. I just was pulling back from that. I think it's about the same. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway.

[00:11:02] Yeah, we didn't get your hot takes yet. You got to give me your hot takes. I mean you kind of did a little bit. Oh, on the season? But yeah, give me hot takes.

[00:11:08] Oh, you know – well, not to talk too much about True Detective but I think – no, no, no. It was on our second breakfast exclusive podcast for our subscribers.

[00:11:18] We were talking about what we've been watching and catching up and I had some honorable mentions and some top ten catch-ups for 2023. I said that – I was kind of struggling with this. What to do with Fargo season five because it was a 2023 show, right?

[00:11:38] It's by our quote-unquote rules. Whatever year or calendar year the show starts in, it belongs in that year. I almost feel like we should revise that to be if it ends in the year. That's weird though because so many shows – yeah, okay.

[00:11:54] But how are you going to judge a show if you haven't seen the ending? That's the hard – yeah, exactly. I think the ending is more important than the beginning. Hmm.

[00:12:03] Nothing that starts in mid-December is ever going to win our top ten unless we do it for the following year. That's a very good point. That's a very good point. I think we should seriously consider this idea and see where it takes us.

[00:12:19] What I've done is I've put Fargo – I scored Fargo with my obscure ranking system. It ties with The Last of Us for last year. What I could do is I could just leave that as floating there. I don't actually have to change my list.

[00:12:37] I can just leave it as that sort of – in that tie position. But then I can score it for 2024 and we can kind of play this out. We can see how this works. I don't – are there any other shows that have bridged? There has to be.

[00:12:50] I know that there are some. I think – I didn't watch The Curse but I think The Curse carried over. Probably. A couple of others. I will not watch The Curse so it's not going on my list. Okay. But it's not even on my radar.

[00:13:03] Anyway, back to my hot take. The show really knocked my socks off. I was very nervous going in on the first episode. Second episode, I was like, uh-huh, okay. And then we just picked up steam from there.

[00:13:22] And I think maybe it was the Jon Hamm walking one-air shot where Roy Tillman is walking. That was one of the big moments. I think The Puppet Show was another really big moment for me.

[00:13:40] The debate stage, I'm just trying to think of all of the scenes that really stick out in my mind. The home invasion scene with the masks particularly. Not anything necessarily about the action, just the visuals that they had. Yeah, that was really good. Yeah.

[00:14:03] So, as these different memorable scenes are occurring, I'm going, wait. I already peaked. Was that not the peak? Was I not already? Aren't we already where the highest we can go on this? And he kept pushing the boundary and pushing the boundary.

[00:14:25] And his ability to really call out modern or concurrent social things that are going on and actually point right at them. But when a lot of shows do that, it's that two-on-the-nose effect can really bring the tone of the show down.

[00:14:51] But in this, he had the ability to do that and not lose us in that. And the story kept rolling. I don't know how to explain it because I don't think anybody's really done it this way before.

[00:15:05] And so, I just think that's a master stroke of being able to do this social commentary stuff in this fantastical thing. And then when we throw in the whole, the events are true and the names have been changed, that whole thing that really triggers the –

[00:15:23] this is actually – objects may appear closer. This is one of those statements that's sort of nonsensical in a way that tricks your brain into perceiving what you're going to get in the episode differently. Yeah. I'm kind of at a loss because my thoughts are all over the place.

[00:15:45] The last 20 minutes were absolutely incredible. Some might say that the prescription to what ails us is oversimplistic, but I don't think so. I think it's right on point. Yeah. And I don't think that the message was, that will solve all your problems. No.

[00:16:06] The message is, take one step in the right direction. Exactly. At a time. Yeah. It starts with a small thing. Yeah. It always starts with a small thing. A delicious biscuit. It looked great. It looked very good. I'll tell you a secret, I put milk in them.

[00:16:20] I was like, man, that's funny. That's good comedy. There was a lot of really subtle comedy in this. Brilliant. Yeah. My hot take is, if it's on last year's ranking, it's tied in number four slot.

[00:16:34] And I'm a little wary of Regency bias, but it's certainly in the top five. And then it's automatically going to score that high for a 2024 show. You got a lot of heavy hitters this year probably. We do. It's going to be tough.

[00:16:52] I mean, the whole top 10 could be full of exceptional shows. I really love the Fargo franchise. I really love what Noah Hawley is doing and saying. He's an author as well as a television producer and writer.

[00:17:10] And I'm really interested in what he's doing and what he did in this season for all of these different reasons. I felt incredibly satisfied with this season of television. I was delighted. I was surprised. I was entertained. I was moved. I laughed.

[00:17:29] Like when Wayne clinks the glass of soda, somebody in our Discord posted that gif. I think it was Gnarls. It's now an emoji in our server. It was so wonderful. It was absolutely so wonderful.

[00:17:44] So yeah, I'm just gushing about the show in a sort of mildly ridiculous kind of way. So that's my hot take. It was great. Well, I think we can go from our hot takes right into these themes. Something that I wanted to talk about.

[00:17:59] I'm going to start us off with a light, fun one. Because it goes right into that beer clink scene. And I wanted to talk about this idea of like... It was a pop. It was a pop clink. A pop, sorry. Anyway. Is it pop or soda?

[00:18:16] I don't do Minnesota nice. I do New York. So anyway, I wanted to go into this idea of like what makes a man. And I think that this show asked that question.

[00:18:26] And I'm going to use these as shorthand terms that I hate when they're used in a serious context. Alpha and beta male. When someone starts talking in that, I immediately go, I don't like you. Big flag.

[00:18:44] I think that the show is playing with those two ideas, with this dichotomy, right? Okay. And Roy clearly is a quote unquote alpha male. He's the guy who guns blazing, hits people and where he hits women. And he disciplines everyone.

[00:19:01] And he's all about justice and smoking cigars and being in his hot tub. And making sure Jaqueen sees his privates when he comes out of the hot tub. And all this garbage. And yet we have Dorothy's next husband, Wayne, who is extremely passive. Very kind. Very nice.

[00:19:29] Really just harmless in every way. And in the end, Munch destroys a lot of the alpha male's life. It destroys a lot of Roy Tillman's life. He gives his son a lifelong disability. And leads his son to betray him in the end.

[00:19:53] He kills a lot of his men. He really affects him poorly. And meanwhile, the one who defeats Munch in a way is Wayne. I mean, Dot does it too. But you notice that Dot starts off. But Dot starts off really fearful and ready to fight.

[00:20:15] She is the tiger. She goes into tiger mode. Yeah, exactly. She absolutely goes into tiger mode. And you can see her tensing and ready to react. And to push. Go to the kitchen, go set the table, all that. Right, yeah. And then to leap out.

[00:20:33] I'm sure she's already. Everything that he's told us about Dot in the season so far is that she's going to grab whatever object she can. And she's going to absolutely be deadly with that. Well, not deadly, but she's going to do some serious harm. Right.

[00:20:53] And so the whole time I'm watching her locked in, I'm thinking what she thinking. OK, where's the telephone or where's the ice skater? Where's the hockey stick? Or can I use a boot? And that instantly had my threat, my flight or fight responses on edge, ready to go.

[00:21:14] Like, OK, ready to go. Is this going to go down? It's going to go down. And it's not what happened. Right. So what happens is Wayne cannot read a room and is just incredibly kind the entire time and constantly talking about nonsense.

[00:21:33] We saw that we saw a tiger at the zoo and all this garbage, and he's getting him a pop and he's clinking with him. He gives him a little clink.

[00:21:43] Can we just for that moment, just from the editing where the hand comes in from the side of the frame and we see Sam Spurl there with his big ungangly hands, his sort of alien face hugger like fingers examining this weird orange thing.

[00:22:05] And then out of nowhere, tink. Yeah. It was brilliant. It broke the tension in the absolutely most perfect way. And this family just living as a loving family, constantly interrupting. A man has a code.

[00:22:23] Like, I never thought I'd laugh so hard at somebody just in complete stoic style speaking about codes and debt and flesh being taken. And it's just amazing.

[00:22:42] And not that I want the words alpha and beta male to leave my mouth, but my point with it is I think the idea that Noah Hawley is going for is that you can be strong without being violent and you can be a strong man without being macho.

[00:23:01] Right. Right. Right. And because Wayne is not a macho man and that's okay. You know, he was kind and that's what gave his wife the strength to be kind as well and to do and to end the cycle of violence.

[00:23:16] So, you know, we talk a lot about narrative structure in our podcasts. And one of the things that you brought in a few times is, you know, humanity having these narrative structures.

[00:23:28] And there was what was the book that you referenced a couple of times humans or homo sapiens or something like that? Sapiens. Sapiens. That's what it was. Yeah. And we have to have these sort of mythologies or these things that help us framework the world and move forward.

[00:23:43] And I think you're absolutely putting your finger on something that is something that we kind of have to deal with in at least modern American culture. And I know not all of our listeners are American.

[00:23:57] But that this idea that you got to drive a Ford F-150 and you got to have a goatee and you got to wear, you know, muscle man shirts or whatever. Like that's this hyper masculine thing. And it feels like it's getting more hyper.

[00:24:12] There's a rising tension in that identity, that tribal identity of like being a really masculine man. And that is a dominant narrative in our cultural story. And we've always had, you know, not everyone fits into those molds, you know, no matter what the current modern culture looks like.

[00:24:37] But this idea that we can have more acceptable narratives for what our sex and gender roles allow us to be. And I'm not even talking about into the world of trans things just as a as a cis het male where I'm at.

[00:24:56] I don't want to drive a Ford F-150. Right. You know, I want to be kind. I've never driven near a Ford F-150 that did not make you want to scream at the way they're driving.

[00:25:06] And I'm sorry if you drive if you're listening to this podcast driving your Ford F-150 right now, put your blinker on. Exactly right. That's all I have to say. Put your blinker on. Right.

[00:25:17] Anyway, I think I'm just sort of going down this road of I'm agreeing with you that there are more than one modalities. There are more than one narrative structures.

[00:25:26] And then if we go over and we look at somebody like Gator, who is wearing all the trappings of that, right? He had all the tactical gear.

[00:25:33] He had the, you know, the cool jackets in the backwards, you know, glasses and the, you know, haircut and the rock and roll posters on his wall and stuff. But yet that was like a costume that didn't fit him. That there was something.

[00:25:49] And it cost him a lot. It cost him so much. So, so much. Would you visit me in jail with cookies? So, so pivoting really quick to Gator a little bit more.

[00:26:01] I really appreciated the fact that Holly had Gator say that line because it was, yeah, maybe he didn't do something hugely heroic like take out his father. What did he do?

[00:26:17] He just said, oh, you know, there's a tunnel back there, which is enough that they needed to know. And they'll probably turn state's evidence right and they're going to get a lot from him. Yeah, I think, I think Gator will.

[00:26:27] He'll do some jail time probably, but I don't think he's going to do, you know, life. He's not going to do a ton of jail time. But the, the, the idea that he resigned himself, he knew in his heart of hearts.

[00:26:40] And I think this is what's really special about this. In his heart of hearts, he knows what he did wrong and that he accepts his, the consequences for his actions. He steps into the fact that, yep, I'm going to jail because I did bad shit.

[00:26:57] Well, he does, but I'll say he does it when he's already lost, right? But that's, he, he's had, he has nothing left, right? He's, he, no, he's nothing left. You know, not, not that he has the range to see his stepmother.

[00:27:13] Yeah, he has, he has no house, no family, nothing. No, he's, he has a disability and he has no money to deal with it. And he has a criminal record. So it's going to be hard for him to get employed.

[00:27:23] And it's, it's just, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. It's, it's just everything, everything crashing down on him.

[00:27:30] And it's kind of like, you kind of feel bad for him just on a regular human level, but it's kind of hard to feel badly for someone who the last episode was saying you like young girls. I'll get you young girls. You know what I mean?

[00:27:43] Like as, as long as he had any power, he would abuse it. He's only doing the right thing now because he has no power left. But that's true.

[00:27:52] And I'm, but I'm also saying that he's now accepting that he is accepting of, he's not going to fight it, right? He's not going to worm his way out of it. He's not going to fight the, you know, the, the charges. He'll probably plead guilty to everything. Right.

[00:28:09] He'll turn state's evidence, but it's that small act, just like Dot offering the biscuit. It starts with a small act.

[00:28:18] And in that moment of saying, visit me in jail is an acknowledgement that he knows that that is now his life in, in terms of atonement to society, to all these other things.

[00:28:32] It's the first small step in him taking responsibility for all the evil that he perpetrated in the world. Sure. And I appreciate that Noah put that in it. Yeah.

[00:28:44] That, that it gave us that one little, that cracked that little door of humanity in this guy who has otherwise been a shit bird the entire season of the show.

[00:28:53] That sort of brings me into another theme that I wanted to talk about, which is can we change who we are? Mm-hmm. You know, can we make that choice?

[00:29:02] You have Munch who is talking about how, you know, he ate the sin and then it was only sin and he was stuck in this limbo. And, you know, we have the supernatural thing where he's been alive hundreds of years, he doesn't age, et cetera.

[00:29:17] And he doesn't sleep even, we find. Right. Mm-hmm. But what Dot offers him, which nobody has ever offered him because everyone's been afraid of him. Rightfully so. So beautiful. Rightfully so.

[00:29:29] But what Dot offers him is a chance to change in the right direction, a chance to be something else. And we get the first smile from him all season. Right. And what a big smile. That was, it was such a joy to have him do that.

[00:29:45] And when that was the last shot, I was like, all right, that's a good last shot. Yeah. Yeah. I think he's okay. Do you think he ages now?

[00:29:52] It was going through my mind that, well, is he suddenly going to, you know, is 500 years suddenly going to catch up with him and he's going to just turn into a pile of dust or- He's going to be the governor of California. Right. Good one.

[00:30:05] So the idea that he now becomes human and he becomes mortal in some way absolutely did appeal to me in terms of what's next for Munch. That he can begin to live a normal life, that he can begin to experience these kindnesses and things.

[00:30:27] And then that if he can sleep, then he can age. And I, in my head canon, I totally am on board with that future for Munch. That he can begin to live a normal life and then age normally going forward from here. I think he becomes Uncle Munch.

[00:30:47] He moves in with the lions and he finishes his big meal that night. He goes, a man sleeps. And then he just clocks out for like a week. He just sleeps for a week. Maybe he becomes Ndera's right hand man on the lion security team.

[00:31:06] A man protects the lions. A man collects debts, right? Yeah. Ooh, I like that. Debt, another theme that I wanted to talk about in this. Both monetary and moral. Can we go back really quick to the can you change who you are? Yeah.

[00:31:25] And I think this is a really potent point because Don't changes, right? One of the things that is what makes a Fargo show a Fargo show is the unwillingness of the protagonists to just admit when things aren't going right or what's really going on.

[00:31:49] This has been something I've been aware of, but then I also heard Noah Hawley on an interview with Joanna Robinson on the Prestige on the Ringer Prestige podcast. Really nice interview. He sums up a lot of his thoughts and feelings about the season.

[00:32:01] But he points this fact out of one of the main parts of one of the hallmarks of Fargo is that they just won't admit like, oh, you know, I did this stupid thing. And it's the thing.

[00:32:13] It's their inability to own up to the truth that starts to cause all of the craziness. So if Don had just said right from the beginning, yep, this is what happened. You know, I ran away because blah, blah, blah. Or, you know, this happened or what happened.

[00:32:28] A lot of this would have changed. Right. I think Lorraine would have gotten her a bunch of bodyguards. Right. And that house would have been protected. Lorraine changes but doesn't change.

[00:32:41] I think I think I think what we saw with Lorraine is how she treats you when you're in and out of the family. Mm hmm. Because from the beginning, we're seeing her from the perspective of an outsider. Dot is very much treated as an outsider. Right.

[00:32:56] Someone who is tolerated by the family but it's not a part of the family. Correct. And at the end of the season, she is Lorraine's daughter. Yeah. I love the little okey dokey little too much hugs here. You know, but then she gives her a nice little pat.

[00:33:12] Right. Like there's she's like, I'll give you affection in my way. Just she's like a cat. Lorraine's like a cat. She's she's got to come to you. That's a very good that's a that's a good analogy. The she's a line.

[00:33:26] Now Indira and Dot are active parts of her life and that Danish is no longer part of her life. Will Lorraine experience more change and will with a little bit more love and you know, this idea of women empowerment and family? Will that soften her heart?

[00:33:52] And so not necessarily soften her heart, but will she operate a little bit differently?

[00:33:56] And at least in my head can and I like to think that Indira and Dot are going to start to slowly alter her course that so that she's less predatory and more protector maybe and more of a, you know, a potential force. And again, that's just my again.

[00:34:12] And that's what I wish for. Right. I don't know. Yeah, it's gonna happen. So so you look at it again. This goes back to change, right? This is goes back to change. You look at the prison fund, though, that it's a horrible thing.

[00:34:25] It's and it's also a very nice thing. Right. At the same time, she set up a fund that is going to reduce the debt of these inmates. Mm hmm. A lot of them too. Yeah. Everyone on blocks D, A and B.

[00:34:42] So I don't know what block C did to make her mad, but right. That that one, they didn't get it. They didn't get out. Yeah. Yeah. So she's helping out a lot of people. She's also I mean, she implied some pretty dark things.

[00:34:57] I heard Vaseline be mentioned and it's not great. But what is great about that moment? What feels like sort of come up and for Roy is that he says at the beginning, oh, the strong prey on the weak in here.

[00:35:15] Just like just like in the how it should be in the real world. And she goes, yeah, you're right. They do prey on the week. And now who's the weakling? Yeah. Yeah. But again, she's having people do evil things. Yes.

[00:35:28] And Roy, like those are evil things regardless of who the victim is. That's not OK. So this goes into another side tangent about the whole question of justice. Yes. And who is just law versus justice. Right. Absolutely.

[00:35:42] And is is justice embodied in a person or an embodied in a system where Roy took it upon himself to be justice, to be the hand of God, to be the biblical man who is bringing order to the world through his, you know.

[00:36:00] OK, really interesting thought here, too. You know, we don't we don't have Jesus with a machine gun on the back of a pickup truck. We have Jesus who washes the feet of people. Jesus who forgives sin. Jesus who feeds the hungry and clothes the poor.

[00:36:20] So, you know, you want to go in the alpha beta like this is not Alpha Jesus. Right. This is not Alpha Jesus. But yet here we have Roy, you know, being very I don't even want to do a disservice

[00:36:31] to the Old Testament, but in by calling him Old Testament because I because I think that's BS as well. Right. There is no there was always kindness taught in exactly a lot of a lot of Jewish teachings. Yeah.

[00:36:48] So so there's even the whole idea of like, you know, leave a portion of your crops to be taken by the poor who can feed themselves. Right. Like there's all these ideas that people like to ignore when you look at at ancient writings. Absolutely.

[00:37:01] But yet he's trapping himself in this godliness and taking on justice, embodying justice. Until he spits on the floor of the church. Do you recall that? Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. That's right. And then he's like, he said, I was your servant. Yeah. All right. Yeah.

[00:37:21] All right. You were never anybody's servant until now. No. But then we have wit who does who is the embodiment of the system. And then he pays with his life for that, which is a whole other thing. Sorry, I can't wait.

[00:37:32] We keep like we keep tripping across all of these major themes. Well, they all bring us back. Link, right? They all link. And so can we change who we are? I think Roy has chosen not to change. Right.

[00:37:42] Even in prison, he's trying to tell you, well, it's the same as it's always been. I'm still in charge. I'm still big dog on campus. Yeah. And it's Lorraine who says, well, if you're not going to change, I'll change the scenario for you. Yeah. Right.

[00:37:56] And she makes a tattoo that he got there on his neck. Yeah. I saw that. I saw that. I was like, is that and my wife was like, I don't know. And he's just like, yeah, they separate the races. It's just like, what?

[00:38:11] He's really explicit about it at this point. He really is. And again, this is Holly's writing, right? This is what he's doing. He's taking contemporary society and he's bringing it, putting it front and center in this fantastical setting where there's a 500 year old sin eater. Yeah.

[00:38:26] Well, and that's, that's the different versions of the same person. That's another theme that I wanted to bring up and like how someone like Roy, I think is, and I don't want to get into politics.

[00:38:39] I don't want to get into politics, but someone like Roy is a figure that we see in the real world who will be very multi-faced depending on the crowd that they're talking to. Look at a political candidate running in a small town primary, running in a national

[00:38:57] primary with States and then running in a general election than being president. Right. It's different. It's different things. Right. And you have Roy who tries to put out this face of I'm a man of freedom. I'm a libertarian kind of, kind of everyone do your own thing.

[00:39:13] I am justice. Just be, be good to each other. And that's, that's a very wholesome image he's trying to portray. Then in private, he tries to portray himself as a tough guy, as somebody you don't want to fuck with.

[00:39:28] And then to his enemies, he's honestly a villain and he's once he's in prison, he's willing to be really explicit about what he believes. Right. Right. Right. Oh, all the trappings are gone. His father-in-law, his, uh, he's no longer married.

[00:39:45] You know, children, all of it is gone and he stripped away and he, yeah. And he comes out with that, that statement of, uh, he prefers it in there because it's all of that stuff has gone away and he can just be this, um, beast.

[00:39:59] And he was saying the quiet part out loud, right? Absolutely. Say a lot of the time. Yeah. And then from his father-in-law really nailed it. What, what he was doing there. Are you Hitler in the bunker or Hitler in the Reichstag?

[00:40:11] Oh man, that was such a good line. That was such a good line. Such a goading line to him too. Also, why do you want to be any version of Hitler? That's my question. Do you have to be a Hitler?

[00:40:23] Do I have to choose a Hitler that I'm being at the moment? No. In, but in that culture, you know, that's being depicted and in that society that he is within, that is an ideal, right? That is a narrative structure for, for some strong man.

[00:40:38] The, the fascist, right? Like the, the strong fascist leader. Right. So, and I think, you know, you have wit who I think probably honestly, you know, we talk a lot about police brutality and how people, you know, police are often very quick to pull out a deadly weapon.

[00:41:00] Right. I think in this situation, I don't think many people would have argued with his right to use deadly force. And they actually teach in law enforcement in your basic law enforcement Academy that I believe it's 21 feet.

[00:41:19] It's either 21 or 28 feet that if somebody is armed with a knife, they can, by the time that you make the decision to pull, you know, pull the trigger and then actually do that, that person has already closed the distance with you.

[00:41:35] So that's a, you know, that deadly range. So for you to protect your own life, it's, it's something like 21 feet. He was way closer than 21 feet. You know, he was legally probably fine there.

[00:41:47] And so he gave him a lawful, you know, he gave him the order, dropped the knife. He did. He many times, many times. And then when he stepped aside, he wanted justice. Right.

[00:41:58] I think where wit went wrong was he then wanted his own idea of justice, which is Ray rotting in a jail cell rather than Roy dying right there as a martyr. Yep. And that was something I saw on the Fargo subreddit.

[00:42:12] People talking about how if Roy dies during this fight, he's a martyr for his people. Right. Interesting. Okay. But if he rots in jail, it depends actually. I thought about this too. Are you aware of, um, Oh, the he's, he's a fundamentalist Mormon leader.

[00:42:30] Uh, Warren Jeffs, Warren Jeffs. Are you aware of this guy? No, not currently. No. So this is a guy who ran essentially a pedophilia ring within his own Mormon community. He's awful, awful man. Uh, he went to prison eventually. He got caught. They, they got him.

[00:42:45] He went on the run. They finally caught up to him. He's in prison, I think for life and. Oh yeah. This guy. He is now treated as a messianic figure by his cult. Okay.

[00:42:56] And he gives instructions to the cult on teachings and, you know, interpretations of the Bible from prison. And so the question is, how do you break the hold of a cult leader over their cult? And I think Roy does have a cult here.

[00:43:11] I think by the end of this episode, he doesn't have a cult outside prison anymore. I think he's done. They, they saw him as a weak man by the end of this episode. But it doesn't have to be immediately around him.

[00:43:22] It can be the wider call because we can see martyrdom, you know, other figures concurrently who are being put into martyr, you know, martyr positions. Um, and, but I think I don't want to go down that road necessarily, but I want to come

[00:43:37] back around, which is why I'm not justifying or I'm not condoning Dorothy Lyons. Uh, you know, manipulating the prisoners to, to, uh, exact for Lorraine Lyons. I was sorry, sorry, not Dorothy. Dorothy's Dorothy's doing okay. She's doing yeah. Yeah. Sorry, Lorraine. I apologize.

[00:43:58] Um, that she understands that, that while he's in prison, he can still, uh, have an effect on the world. And what she's doing is saying, no, you're not. And I'm going to use all of my tools and power to deny you that so that you're not

[00:44:15] going to be able to manipulate the system. Right. And that is this, this goes back to the question of justice. Is that justice? Right. Not, not legal justice, right. But it, but sociological justice were stopping the bad man. The idea of justice, right.

[00:44:30] It's, it's, uh, you know, hold up your hand in the sky justice. Right. Um, all right. I think that's a good note to leave it on before we take a break. So why don't we do that?

[00:44:41] We'll come back and we'll keep discussing all these themes and we're back. So I wanted to talk about a couple very quick, uh, themes here that we've touched on, but we haven't really gotten deep into. So debt. Yeah. Yeah. As a monetary and moral concept.

[00:45:11] Obviously we have debt collection brought up in the first episode and, and remains something talked about through throughout. We have a point of view of a debtor with Indira. We have a point of view of the collector with, um, you know, the creditor with, uh, Lorraine

[00:45:30] and then we, and those are just the financial debtor and creditor. You also have munch who's obsessed with these moral debts. And even I think Roy to an extent is obsessed with moral debts, right?

[00:45:43] He's like, you know, he, he has this, you know, we, the government's coming for us and we got to make sure that they can't take anything from us. That, that I think is a calculation of debt, right? We're owed our freedom.

[00:45:55] We are owed the right to own these firearms and to have our ranch and have nobody bother us and to kidnap women and be able to treat them however we want. So I, I think that that, I think that Holly really wanted to highlight the debt aspect

[00:46:11] of morality and to do that. He very cleverly woven a more literal monetary version of debt. There was, I was searching and searching and I couldn't find it. I listened to a podcast, I think, I don't know.

[00:46:27] It's, it's a wash in my head and where I heard this conversation, but about systems of debt and structures of debt and the, and the role that debt plays in society and how

[00:46:38] the nature of debt has changed as we've moved into this sort of, you know, what we call a free market capitalist system. But I use those quotes loose loosely. The idea that, you know, I might have borrowed my neighbor's snow shovel and so now

[00:46:59] I owe them a debt. So then they ask me to water their plants when they go on vacation for a couple of weeks. Right? So there's, there's always this idea that within society and within community we're, we're relying on each other.

[00:47:11] And as long as nobody's over, um, you know, taking too much advantage, we all have a sense that it's going to work out. Oh, I got lunch this time. You get it next time. Yeah. Okay. No problem. Cool. Right. It's, it's, it's nice to live in that way.

[00:47:27] But when we, when we collateralize debt and we take debt and we chop it up into tranches and we sell it off and you know, we do all these crazy things to it. It changes the nature of that whole system. And I can't but help.

[00:47:43] I absolutely think that Holly is pointing a finger at that system and saying, you know, what, what is the debt? I mean, even wit was saying, you know, you saved my life. I owe you a debt. Right.

[00:47:56] But it's, but it's not the kind of debt that Lorraine lion has made her fortunes on. Right. So we really see the different kinds of debt, the, the, the social connectivity between human beings where we need to support each other in different ways.

[00:48:13] And you might be a little bit, you need a hand this time and you'll give me a hand next time. Right. That's all based on debt. But then when we use financial debt, then you have somebody like Lorraine who controls

[00:48:24] the Fed sock, you know, who can call up the what was the, the bank regulator, you know, secretary of, of whatever, you know, and, and can wield power in, in a way that is completely outsized the position of one person. Right.

[00:48:42] And, and use that in uses that actually to manipulate Indira. Right. Right. So even Indira, it's interesting because I almost think that Lorraine, because she admires Indira is trying to keep Indira there as a check for her, which is why she

[00:49:02] doesn't want her knowing about the bad stuff because she doesn't want Indira to be weighed down with that and then be unable to be the check anymore. Right. Right. And she has principles. Yeah. Right. She, she joined the police department because she believed in something.

[00:49:21] I'm sure the, you know, the benefits might've been good and she needed a job because she had a deadbeat husband. But the idea that she believes in something in the sense of justice and the sense of the

[00:49:33] law, the same as wit, you know, that Lorraine didn't want to, I guess corrupt that too far. Right. I guess. That's a supposition. Well, because you get the sense that Danish graves, I don't want to say he encouraged her worse impulses, but he certainly didn't curb them.

[00:49:57] No, he absolutely extended those and enabled those. Right. Absolutely. And he, as her, as her lawyer, as her agent said, whatever you ask me to do, I'm there for, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna question the morality of it.

[00:50:13] And when he died, it was when he, he went too far when he took it under his own authority to do something that he didn't tell Lorraine about. Yep. That he was going to try to solve the situation, situation on itself and be a hero in that regard.

[00:50:29] But the moment he went too far, he stepped out of her protection and, uh, and miscalculated the situation quite badly. Yeah. And, you know, you had him trying to really pull the macho man thing on Roy, right? Yep.

[00:50:46] He really tried to go like, oh, it's all over your, you're done for. And Roy actually had a pretty good comeback. If you're so smart, why are you so dead? Brilliant. Honestly, an extremely well-written line. It's spooky. Yeah.

[00:51:01] I want to shout out something too on the, on the debt thing. I just listened to a podcast, which I did remember and I have here in front of me. There is a podcast called the gray area with Sean Illing on, uh, it's a Vox media podcast.

[00:51:14] And he just did an interview with Elizabeth Anderson, who's a professor of public philosophy at University of Michigan. And she has a whole book and a body of work that she was talking about around how the

[00:51:28] idea of the quote unquote, Protestant work ethic has sort of taken over our modern sensibilities of work. And then this goes into the whole question of debt as well. But the idea that, uh, the way that we value human beings is determined by how hard we

[00:51:45] work and how much money we make. And it's a really fascinating look at this idea and in how that permeates and structures our society and actually blinds us to being able to see other possibilities where, well, maybe you have a business that's not exploitative.

[00:52:04] That's not trying to make the maximum dollar that is existing to provide a good living to people, provide a good service or goods, you know, goods or services to the marketplace that have a beneficial impact for people. Not even like fluffy bunny positive stuff.

[00:52:22] Just like, Oh, here's a really useful widget that will make your life a little bit easier. You know, that's great. Why does that have to be a company that's going to go public and, you know, a corner of the stock market?

[00:52:33] And why do I have to drive my competitors out of business? Well, I mean, if I could just compare something else there, what about the post office? Think about the way we talk about the post office and other government services anymore.

[00:52:47] Why do we ever talk about is the post office making a profit? Right. That comes up in budget discussions all the time. Absolutely. The post office exists because we have to mail letters, not because we're trying to make money for the government. That's what taxes are for.

[00:53:01] The post office exists as a service. Nobody asks if the fire department made any money this year. It's like these are essential services we need. And so I think you're right. I think that there's this weird obsession with like everything needs to be made for

[00:53:15] maximal profit and maximum, maximum, maximum, maximum. Super size it, you know? Right. That we stopped it with fast food, but not with anything else. It goes into this idea of debt. And we put ourselves into debt because we're pursuing something.

[00:53:32] We're pursuing this illusion that if I have means, if I have status, if I have all of this, the trappings of wealth, that that gets me somewhere or gets me something. And so when we can collateralize that, then we can turn human beings into numbers on a

[00:53:53] spreadsheet and we stop relating them to as human beings. And then that's where we end up with a much bigger set of problems which we're dealing with. So. Yeah. Anyway, great, great podcast. It's called a pro worker ethic. The gray area with Sean Elling on Vox Media.

[00:54:11] Oh, and that's the same one that Noah Hawley did an interview on, right? Yes, he did quite a quite a while ago. Just about in general because Noah Hawley has been talking about narrative structures of the hero and the frontiersman and gun violence in our culture.

[00:54:33] And that's one of his book that he published a while ago, which I'm blanking the name on right now. American Anthem, I think, or just Anthem. I think it's called Anthem. Okay. Which is a really, it's like a Fargo episode in a book in a lot of ways.

[00:54:50] And I had to kind of put it down because it was as a parent, I was really disturbed by the mirror that he was holding up to me and seeing what's going on in our culture.

[00:55:02] So, and again, this is why I think Ali is a really interesting person that has my attention is because he's engaging in the cultural conversation by using entertainment to illuminate and examine these really fundamental questions about who are we as a society and how are we living? Yeah.

[00:55:24] You know, I think back to our second age podcast back in the day where we talk about Tolkien and he had said to C.S. Lewis, you know, fiction is not just a bunch of lies. It is the way that we talk about truths about the human experience.

[00:55:42] I don't remember how he phrased it, but he basically said, you know, these are how we tell truths about being alive, about the world. Right. And I think that that's right. And I think that the best media does that.

[00:55:57] And it's interesting because when I was in my younger days reading more before the internet days, I did. I was one of those people who I really prefer reading fiction because I learn more about the world, even if it's science fiction or fantasy or even contemporary.

[00:56:16] But the examination of the real world through the fictional lens is what interested me at that time, interested me a lot more. I felt that I could understand the world and analyze the world more effectively than

[00:56:29] by reading a nonfiction book, which just felt very dry to me and uninspiring. I'm like, oh, OK. You know. Well. I agree with you. I think that fiction and especially fantasy and science fiction are really excellent at

[00:56:47] examining interpersonal relationships, at examining emotional truths in a way that it sometimes is difficult to do in more, I want to say, realistic fiction. But even though it's you know, again, it's all fiction, it's all it's all fake.

[00:57:05] But I think that when you tether it to a real life experience, I mean, it's possible in the real world. Sometimes you get caught up in the factual. And and I think that science fiction and fantasy and introducing fantasy elements even into

[00:57:19] mostly grounded show like this, like introducing Munch into this. Yeah. Help you distill those things. And that's why it's really brilliant to have that subtle supernatural element. Right. In this because Munch is sort of the cherry on top. Right.

[00:57:36] The whole season is teaching you these lessons and exposing these truths through Dot, through Roy, through Gator. But it's Munch at the end who really says like, OK, if you missed it the first five times, here's the big giant grin on my face.

[00:57:56] And I think that goes right into ending the cycle of violence. Right. Which is tied very closely to revenge and forgiveness. So I want to just sort of link those together here. And those are my last two themes I wanted to talk about.

[00:58:11] If we can also add on there not only the cycle of violence, but the cycle of violence towards women and the way that the violence that we inflict upon women. And we're dealing with that in true detective night country right now.

[00:58:30] And we were doing all of a lot of the seasons have dealt with that. But, you know, head on in this season. But here as well. It's just such an ugly and intractable problem.

[00:58:43] And it kind of stops me in the tracks of like, how do we talk about it? How do we confront it? How do we face it? And how do we break this silence? I mean cycle.

[00:58:58] Because in some cases the biscuit isn't going to do it to an abuser. Right? A biscuit to Roy Tillman is going to get you. He's going to shoot right through the biscuit. Exactly. But yeah, I think you're right there.

[00:59:11] And Dot is someone who never asked for any of this. Right? She was caught as a child and she was groomed as a child to be with Roy Tillman and to be abused by Roy Tillman. And she finally escaped it.

[00:59:26] And she by happenstance ended up in a police database. And all of a sudden her abuser came back and wouldn't leave her alone, even though she hasn't tried to contact him in 10 years.

[00:59:37] It's not like it's not like she even went to the police about him or maybe she did. I don't know because they have the photos of her. But you know what I mean?

[00:59:43] It's not like he ever even faced consequences for what for her leaving and what he did to her. And yet he just won't leave her alone. And he hired Munch and she makes this point to Munch, too.

[00:59:56] And I'm glad she made this point because for you know, for some of it, she was just trying to appeal to his logic of. Well, it's a debt. Right. And she was trying to say, well, it's not a debt or you can forgive it.

[01:00:09] Like maybe I do owe you a debt, but but you should forgive it. But she also says the correct thing, which is you took a job. You understood the risk. Yeah. Just because you lost on that job doesn't make it my fault.

[01:00:24] Doesn't you don't I was the object of your job. I wasn't the one who commissioned you. I wasn't the one who double crossed you multiple times. Right. Right. So, yeah, I defended myself. Therefore, yes, it was a really good piece of logic.

[01:00:38] I thought it was a really great way for me to redress the overall question. But that again goes into law versus justice. Right. Because that's because that's absolutely the law says, yeah, sure. She's legally fine. That was self-defense.

[01:00:52] But justice in Munch's eyes, who gets to define justice again? Is good point. You took my year. You took my friend. I take something equivalent of yours. Yeah. Yeah. And his grievance here or his his what he's bringing forward here

[01:01:15] is not actually in the balance of scales of you owe me, you know, five dollars or whatever. Two dollars. You owe you hurt me. Therefore, I need to hurt you back to balance the scales. And she said, no. Yeah. Have a have a biscuit. Right.

[01:01:38] And that one little step, I mean, it wasn't one little step. They were the whole family was working on him, right? Whether they do it or not. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. They were all they were all in on it.

[01:01:48] But they but I think that was the only one who realized what was happening. Yeah. But then they she had to sort of break down. Well, all of them did. But they sort of had to break down all of his logical barriers

[01:02:03] and the screen of belief and tradition and and all of these ideas that he's built up over his 500 years and to had to sort of break each one of those one by one until there was nothing left but two people sitting across from each other

[01:02:22] and actually sharing what is fundamental about our existence. Yeah. And in the sense that we're alone in these bags of meat, right? And we're seeking connection. And once you get all that other stuff out of the way and you can find a very simple, common, shared thing,

[01:02:48] which is to eat something that's been cooked with joy and love. Right. That extraordinary, absolutely extraordinary moment. Sorry, I'm getting a little emotional here. Yeah, no, I get it. And she really did end that cycle of violence through love.

[01:03:08] And that's that's you know, I've talked about, you know, taking classes on patriarchy and feminism and how right how how the world works with that. And I did hear one time that, you know, we talked about violence

[01:03:22] and how how rampant it is in prisons and things like that and shame and guilt and all of these issues that arise out of patriarchy. And somebody actually asked the question, what's the answer? And the person said, it's love.

[01:03:38] It's being there for your fellow human and not continuing that cycle, not escalating. And I think Noah Hawley really, really nailed that here. Not trying to dominate or to get something from the transaction. Not having some other ulterior motive, but just recognizing that.

[01:03:59] The other person over there is ninety nine point nine percent of everything that you're feeling, they're also feeling in their state. Taking advantage of people, I will say Wayne with the Kia sales over there. It's like driving a cloud. That was hilarious.

[01:04:15] Do you know do you know about like the Kia like theft issue in the country right now? No, no. Apparently Kia's and I think some other cars have a locking mechanism that is extremely easy to break and like a key mechanism that's really easy to to like hack.

[01:04:35] And people are just stealing Kia's all over the place. And I wonder if that's part of why they use Kia. That's why they use Kia. Or is it just a paid ad the whole time? Or just an innocuous car. It's not a Ford F-150.

[01:04:50] You know, it's not a Chevy Silverado. A Kia is like my first car was a Kia like and it was a great car. I'm listen Kia if you're listening. Sponsor it. It's fine. Well, no, I'm not saying that.

[01:05:01] But I I'm saying, you know, I have no problems with Kia's, but I did wonder if the recent uptick in Kia theft had to do with Oh, that's a nice little Easter egg that he put in there. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. I don't know.

[01:05:16] And I want to talk about two before we go. I know we're running out of time here, but yeah. Dot, the two things I noticed about her in the last episode, she is completely out in the open on what happened now, but she kept her Minnesota nice accent.

[01:05:32] Good point. So on the question of settled into who we are. Yeah. She has changed who she is and she's not Nadine. She is Dorothy. And she's comfortable like that. And she doesn't feel like it's an act. She feels like that's who she is now. Yeah.

[01:05:49] And that accent is that it's not a put on anymore. Right. Yeah. Nice. The other thing was, did you notice that she told Indira or I guess Indira brought it up? I think that there's ads now where Dot is with. Oh, right. At the Kia dealership.

[01:06:06] So I think part of that is just to show us that she's not afraid to be seen anymore. That's right. Yeah, that's a really good point. I took it as so natural and sort of like, yeah, okay, that makes sense.

[01:06:15] But I didn't actually think that back into the story structure that that's she's. Yeah. Cause you know that she was always like, no, I don't want to be on the ads. I don't want to be on the ads because she doesn't want to be seen.

[01:06:23] She doesn't want anyone to be driving on a billboard, driving on the highway and see a billboard with her and say, Hey Roy, you got to see this. Yeah. But yeah, but I think that, and also the fact that she's taking some agency in their life, right.

[01:06:37] She's been, she's been a housewife for an, a, and a stay at home mother. So she's taking on a fuller role. Yeah. I mean, look, it's, it's a full-time job to be a homemaker. But I think the point is she's, she's saying, you know,

[01:06:50] I want to do something new and that's, that's great to see because she, I think she needs something to distract her from the trauma she has been through over the last year. Yeah. And I think, I think you also noticed too, I know this from as,

[01:07:07] as our child is getting older and has more agency, there's a, there's a less, a lessening of the demands on, right. You know, managing the domestic affairs, which is a lot of work I've done. Like eventually they want you to leave them alone. Right. They do. Yes.

[01:07:23] My, my, I remember being a teenager and my mom would be like, you want to go to the store with me? No, no. Yeah. I'm playing Xbox. Exactly. Yeah. I, I, I have, you know, one in a three year old. I go,

[01:07:34] I go to take a bathroom break from work when I work from home and she goes, I want to dance dad. And cute. Yeah. Yeah. I was the, a flex parent. My spouse had the more nine to five traditional, you know,

[01:07:50] work for something. And, and I was, you know, doing sort of some freelancing and my own business. And, but that made me available for being the primary parents, you know, with the stroller and the diapers and, you know, moving around the city and organizing things.

[01:08:05] And it's a bloody lot of work and I wasn't even cooking or cleaning as much. Right. My wife enjoys cooking. That's like one of the ways that she restores herself at the end of the day.

[01:08:16] And but still it's just, it's a lot, it's a lot, a lot. So yeah. But anyway, so, so Dorothy's moving on to a new, but yes, yes. But he's moving to a new phase. Scotty who is very self-sufficient.

[01:08:30] You could tell like she wants to hang out with her mom still. She's still in that phase, but it's, it's, she wants to, she doesn't need to. Yeah, exactly. One I don't have any other big things I want to touch on other than I just

[01:08:43] wanted to call out. There was a very beautiful visual scene at the end near the end where Gator is sitting under a tree in the fog and the the illusion to Oedipus was brought up in as one of the archetypes behind there. And I was like, Oh,

[01:08:59] I wish I had, I'm so not up on Oedipus and how that could have played into the story. But I just had to call out that shot because of this blind man with this bloody rag tied around his face in this foggy misty scene with this ancient tree.

[01:09:15] He kills his father, doesn't he? Yeah. But then he realizes he slept with his mother and he kills his father. And then he calls his own eyes out. Yeah. So it's the whole blind man thing, right? And, and that so, but you know,

[01:09:27] what else is there? I'm not sure. The visual though was just absolutely gorgeous. Yeah. Very cool. Well, David, it's been a pleasure talking about this season with you. I could talk about it for probably several hours,

[01:09:43] but I think we hit all of the major things we had to talk about. And hopefully if there's a season six of Fargo, which I hope there is genuinely, I hope that it comes out in a time where we can actually cover it because I

[01:09:53] think this has to be a day one cover for us. Absolutely. Absolutely. Would you like to tell the lovely people at home what we're doing next? Sure. Should we start with our programming schedule a little bit? Absolutely. We are covering the season six of Fargo.

[01:10:07] We're going to be covering the season six of Fargo. We're going to be covering the season six of Fargo. We're going to be covering the season six of Fargo. We're going to be doing a podcast. I'm going to be doing a podcast on the season six of Fargo.

[01:10:46] So that's going to be episode three, right? After we get done with this, this podcast for Marvel fans, we just did some podcasts on what if season two and echo. That was a lot of fun with John and Alicia.

[01:10:57] And we're going to probably be coming up on Madam web. We'll probably do one podcast where we do a little review and context stuff and then we'll review the movie. You and Brandon are going to be covering a final fantasy seven for the

[01:11:11] lore hounds play podcast, which is where we do all our video game coverage. And that should be coming out in February, I believe. Yeah, I think we're going to do it first week or two of February. And that way for leap day, when the new game comes out,

[01:11:22] it'll already be in your feed. Very good for our star Wars film festival. We are up to rogue one is the next movie, which I think is a pretty exciting and popular title among a lot of our listeners.

[01:11:36] So we will have done a live watch by the time this podcast probably comes out or it'll be right around the same time. And then we'll release our podcast about a week later on that. And then I've got a special surprise for you. We'll talk about it.

[01:11:48] We'll tease it when we do the road one podcast, but I've got a very cool interview lined up for us following that in the next month. Cool. We're continuing on our journey in earth sea and that next podcast will be out in February. And for that podcast,

[01:12:04] we're going to read the short story called dragon fly. And then we're going to begin reading the fifth book in the series, the other wind. And I'm not sure how Maryland is going to have us structure that,

[01:12:17] but we'll probably get a chunk, the other wind up in a couple of sections. So at least read dragon fly and the first opening chapters of the other wind. If you can't, if you can restrain yourself and not read all the way through. I mean,

[01:12:29] I know a lot of people just end up reading the whole thing and wait for us to catch up on the podcast. So a Silmarillion story we're going to be covering of men. That should be a really interesting men of men.

[01:12:40] We're going to talk about Roy and yes, all of that stuff. Roy and Gator. We are eyeballing a number of different shows after a true detective ends. We're waiting on a number of shows. We have severance in the wings.

[01:12:56] We're going to be doing a four way coverage of that with Steve and Anthony from properly Howard movie review. We're just waiting for a release date for season two. We, Steve and Anthony did a full season one podcast rewatch that is all available

[01:13:11] in the show notes for the, for this episode you will find a link for the severance feed. We set up a whole separate feed for that so that we could manage that project a little bit differently. So go subscribe to that. You know,

[01:13:24] if you're doing a rewatch of season one, all of those episodes are ready for you there. In the meantime, we're sort of waiting on house of the dragon rings of power, the boys, the acolyte. Those are all day one coverage shows.

[01:13:37] And then we're looking at a number of other things. So we'll, as we confirm things, we'll, we'll make announcements in the programming notes of future podcasts. John, do you want to talk a little bit about the Patreon? The Patreon. We've got a Patreon.

[01:13:54] You can get on it for as little as three bucks a month. You could also get a free trial. You do annual memberships. We're we're, we're really flexible. You know, we, we keep it cool over here where we're not Roy Tillman with his rules on his

[01:14:06] ranch or we keep it nice and easy going just like the lion household. Exactly. But our top tier patrons, they get a shout out every episode and they are some Martian Mark H. Michael G. Michele, David W. Brian P. Nick W. S C Peter O H. Bettina W.

[01:14:24] Adam S. Nancy M. Do 71. Brian 80 63. Who's a discord? Doonah dine. Doona Dan. Sorry. I have to use a singular for that. One of the discord doonah dine. Frederick H. Sarah L. Gareth C. Eric F. Matthew M. Sarah M. DJ Mewa. Andre B. Kwong U.

[01:14:47] Did I Jedi Bob Nathan T. Alex V. Aaron T. Subzero Aaron K. Also a doonah den. Dali V 21. Gnarls and Adrian, who's last. I'm going to say the reason I said gnarls so weirdly is that gnarls specifically asked that each time their name is read,

[01:15:02] we say it as a question. So I think we should have a contest of who can get their voice higher and make the question Mark more audible. Okay. When we read. We can play with it. We're going to play. Yeah. We're going to emphasize it.

[01:15:14] We're going to put. No, we're going to play with it. We're going to play with it. We're going to play with it. We're going to play with it. We're going to play with it. We're going to play with it. We're going to size it.

[01:15:23] We're going to put nonsense in emphasis, different syllable, hesolabic emphasis. Yeah, there you go. I love it. There you go. Good stuff. Well, thanks now. Alice for joining up. So you can be a patron and enjoy live watches like rogue one.

[01:15:37] You too could enjoy earlier and add free access. All the, all the good stuff. Second Breakfast shiressite chats, exclusive content. Can I plug something about the show, the show tracker? Yeah, do plug the show tracker. tracker. So we've got this big database that we, uh,

[01:15:50] manage and maintain that tracks all the different shows. We, you do it. We me, I don't, I'm not singular. We do it together. You're a plural person. Uh, yeah. I'm, I'm, I can take royal. We in I contain multitudes. I contain multitudes. You're a,

[01:16:06] your empire from foundation. That's right. There you go. I like that. Anyway, there's a big show tracker. It, uh, we try to collect up all the different show titles and collect all the information. It's kind of this database thing. You can look on the page,

[01:16:19] you can see all the really basic information, how many episodes, how long it's airing, there's links to IMDB and all these other things. Anyways, I was on the discord today and sub zero mentioned something. He said that he had finally, uh,

[01:16:34] they had finally gotten into it and we're really marveling at it and then suggested something that then sparked an idea for me. And we kind of worked this out. We can actually, the way I can configure a different views of the show tracker is I can actually

[01:16:49] do it in a timeline fashion that's actually organized by the streaming platform. And the idea that sub zero had was if you could look at it that way, you could actually plan out your subscription schedules. Okay.

[01:17:06] There's three shows on this subscribe on this platform that I want and they're all coming out at the same time. So I'll subscribe for them and binge watch a couple of other things and then I

[01:17:14] can cancel it and I can go to the other one and other ones. So you can actually look what's coming out on the different streaming platforms by time so that you can figure out when you want to manage your subscriptions.

[01:17:25] If you, you know, if that's the thing you do, cause I know some people are always churning their, their subscriptions. So I thought it was a really novel and interesting thing. So there you go. Real benefit for being a Patreon member. You get access to that.

[01:17:38] Cool. Yeah. Well, David, we've got plenty of stuff going on. I think people can check out the lorehounds.com if they want more info for now. We will see you on the next podcast. Ciao. The lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the lorehounds.

[01:17:55] You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at the lorehounds.com slash contact get early and add free access to all lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or

[01:18:10] belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening. Okay, David, this is where we're supposed to choose a side green or black. John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life. So we're not fighting.

[01:18:34] I thought this is where HBO wanted us to like pick sides and fight and stuff. Don't worry. I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod, but we seem to agree on one thing. We both really like this show.

[01:18:44] The politics, the drama, the lore. It was made for the lorehounds. And since we just finished recapping season one, we couldn't be more ready to defend our black queen in the dance of the dragons. And with the season pass option and supercast listeners can get early ad free

[01:19:00] access to each weekly scene by scene deep dive. Plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections. See you in the lorehounds podcast feed each week for our dragon fire hot, but probably positive takes.

[01:19:14] The lorehounds house of the dragon coverage is also safe for team green consumption. Side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore, a heart and conflict with itself and an inescapable urge to read the book fire and blood by George RR Martin. Dragon seeds may experience burning.