Oneshot: Mr & Mrs Smith

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[00:01:01] Welcome to The Lorehounds One Shots. I'm your host, David.

[00:01:19] John is not with me today, but I have a very special guest, Ron Dodson. Welcome.

[00:01:25] Hey, good to be back, David.

[00:01:26] Good to see you again.

[00:01:27] Thanks for having me.

[00:01:27] Yeah. So today we're going to talk about Mr. and Mrs. Smith, all six episodes. Pretty exciting.

[00:01:34] We both really enjoyed the show. Just real quick, a couple of housekeeping details up front.

[00:01:39] If you need to get in touch with us, send us an email to lorehounds at thelorehounds.com.

[00:01:45] If you're interested in supporting our community, you can find us on Patreon at patreon.com slash

[00:01:51] lorehounds. And we also have a new system called Supercast that we're starting to use.

[00:01:56] It's kind of like Patreon, but it's built more specifically for podcasters.

[00:02:00] Anyway, you can find those links in the show notes as well.

[00:02:04] We'd like to invite you to our Discord server. We've got a great community.

[00:02:07] We've got a cool mod team, a lot of fun talking about all the different shows.

[00:02:12] Everybody's real fired up right now for Shogun, which is just released.

[00:02:16] So we've got special channels set up for all of that.

[00:02:20] And I think that's about all of the housekeeping stuff. I'll talk a little bit more about the

[00:02:24] Patreon benefits and some programming notes at the end of the podcast.

[00:02:28] But otherwise, I think what we'll do is start with our hot takes and that'll be spoiler free.

[00:02:35] So if you haven't seen the series yet, but you're sort of curious to hear what our

[00:02:39] general impressions are, we'll do that. And then maybe we'll have a little break and then

[00:02:43] we can get into a bit more of a detailed analysis of the season. Ron, yeah, you've got some great

[00:02:53] bullet points here for our outline. You have said that this show is your current obsession.

[00:02:58] So I'm excited to hear what you have to think because I loved this season of television.

[00:03:03] It was so, so good.

[00:03:05] Yeah, this is easily going to be on my top five list.

[00:03:10] Cool.

[00:03:10] Right now it's sitting right at number one. It's going to take a lot to

[00:03:14] Displace it.

[00:03:15] Back it off the top. Yeah.

[00:03:17] What are some things that we can talk about that are spoiler free about your...

[00:03:22] Like if I haven't seen the show, what would you tell me to get me to watch it?

[00:03:29] Yeah, I think the natural place to start is,

[00:03:34] what is your relationship with the quote unquote source material?

[00:03:40] And I say quote unquote because I think even the movie was kind of like a remake

[00:03:44] of an earlier TV show.

[00:03:46] Oh really?

[00:03:47] From the 80s or 90s called Mr. and Mrs. Smith with Scott Bakula.

[00:03:53] So...

[00:03:54] I have to Google that right now.

[00:03:56] I didn't realize that there was something from before.

[00:03:58] Yeah, yeah. I think most people, including myself,

[00:04:03] are going to think about the Brangelina movie.

[00:04:08] Sure.

[00:04:08] Yeah.

[00:04:08] From the... What was it? 2005 or something like that? When that came out.

[00:04:16] And why have you seen that one? And if so, overall, how do you think it compares?

[00:04:22] I have seen the movie, but I will admit that it wasn't...

[00:04:30] I don't even think I saw it when it first came out in the theaters because I was kind of like,

[00:04:35] Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, eh, pass.

[00:04:38] Right.

[00:04:39] Kind of not my... Neither of them are people who really inspired me at that particular time in my

[00:04:46] life. I've looked back on Brad Pitt's career a little bit more retrospectively and he's solid.

[00:04:53] He has delivered a lot of solid entertainment over the years.

[00:04:55] Oh yeah, for sure.

[00:04:57] And yeah, Angelina Jolie has just not been somebody I'm overly interested in following in her career.

[00:05:04] No, I hear you. Yeah, I never saw it when it originally came out either.

[00:05:08] And then I watched it after seeing the TV show with Don Culver and my Erskine.

[00:05:13] I watched it...

[00:05:15] Oh, okay. Got it.

[00:05:16] And it did not do anything for me. I was bored. This may be... I don't know how many sacrosanct

[00:05:25] movie laws I'm breaking by saying this, but I just felt like... I wouldn't say it was horrible

[00:05:32] and maybe it was a movie of its time.

[00:05:35] Mm-hmm, 2005, yeah.

[00:05:37] There were times, the big fight scene they had somewhere in the second act, I believe.

[00:05:43] I just remember thinking after the fight scene, she had been kicked in the face, kicked in the

[00:05:48] guts. Her hair was still looking pretty top notch. Her makeup was looking good.

[00:05:53] Right.

[00:05:53] And she had one tiny scratch under her left eye. I'm like, come on. And then at the end,

[00:05:59] there's this ridiculous shootout where the two of them are in this factory or some type of warehouse

[00:06:06] surrounded by guys in bulletproof vests and all the gear. They have nothing on.

[00:06:15] All the other bad guys are missing them, even though they're not behind anything.

[00:06:20] And in slow motion, they're killing everybody.

[00:06:22] Right.

[00:06:23] And I was just... Maybe because I watched it after seeing this highly superior television show...

[00:06:29] Sure, yeah.

[00:06:29] ...it impacted how the movie fell on me.

[00:06:33] Right.

[00:06:34] So that's for me personally.

[00:06:36] Right, right, right.

[00:06:37] So if you're out there and you love that movie...

[00:06:38] It is a beloved film by a lot of people. And I get that. And I think it struck a chord at

[00:06:43] a particular time with a particular set of actors. And it is. It's fantasy violence, right?

[00:06:49] Yeah.

[00:06:49] It is heroic violence where they never face a real mortal threat because we're there to see them and

[00:06:58] not anything else. When I heard about the television show and I said, okay, Glover and Erskine,

[00:07:08] this is not going to be the movie. This is not a reboot. So every time a reviewer

[00:07:13] I would see online somewhere, they're saying, well, it's certainly not the original movie.

[00:07:18] I'm like, duh. Are you just playing? Is this what your editors are getting you to say this thing?

[00:07:27] Because for me, it was never going to be a reboot of the movie. It couldn't have been.

[00:07:32] Not with Glover at the helm.

[00:07:34] And I knew that from the original announcement when it was Glover and Phoebe Waller-Bridge

[00:07:39] two or three years ago. I knew it wasn't going to be the original movie because obviously what

[00:07:47] was a big draw from that original movie was how beautiful Brad and Angelina were.

[00:07:52] Right, exactly.

[00:07:53] And I remember shots...

[00:07:54] The birth of Brangelina.

[00:07:55] Right. And I remember shots of that movie where I'm like, damn, that Brad Pitt's a good...

[00:08:01] I'm confident enough in my heterosexuality to say, that Brad Pitt, if anyone could take me

[00:08:07] to the other team, Brad Pitt could probably do it. Some of the shots in there. And then,

[00:08:13] and I think I'm kind of with you with Angelina, she's an attractive woman,

[00:08:18] but she particularly doesn't do anything for me. That's just my particular taste.

[00:08:24] Sure, yeah.

[00:08:24] That being said, she does look like a Greek goddess in this movie.

[00:08:29] Yes, yeah.

[00:08:29] So that was obviously a huge part of that film, two beautiful people kicking ass.

[00:08:36] And one thing I like about both Waller-Bridge and Glover as a pairing, as well as Donald and Maya,

[00:08:46] is that I think all three of them are attractive people, but they are more of a down to earth

[00:08:53] attractiveness, a more relatable attractiveness. And I think that's something that stood out to me.

[00:09:01] I think we'd be remiss if we didn't mention the internet kind of ugliness that came out in terms

[00:09:07] of this being an interracial couple and not two beautiful white people. We don't need to get into

[00:09:11] that, but obviously there was some of that going on.

[00:09:13] I've been inside of my bubble and I... Well, I was in a true detective bubble,

[00:09:18] so I was trying to keep my four shields up from all of that toxicity.

[00:09:22] True detective had a little bit of that as well, too.

[00:09:24] Ooh, a little bit.

[00:09:27] And that was bound to happen. I think anyone who's a fan of Glover, I'm sure Glover knew that

[00:09:33] was going to happen. But I think the biggest question mark was how is this going to hold up

[00:09:41] to this movie that was really beloved by so many people? And for all intents and purposes,

[00:09:46] I don't think this television show, aside for some homages to some of the scenes in the movie,

[00:09:55] this TV show is not really like the movie.

[00:09:59] No, it's the central conceit of a couple as a spy couple and that's it.

[00:10:05] Right. That's pretty much it.

[00:10:07] You have to cut out everything else from there. Because in the movie,

[00:10:10] it was they didn't know each other were spies, where this one is they're paired as spies.

[00:10:15] Right. And that's a premise from the beginning, so that's not really a spoiler.

[00:10:20] Exactly. Exactly.

[00:10:21] So I like that aspect of it. And so I would say if you're a fan of Glover's work,

[00:10:28] if you like, I would describe this movie as a romantic dramedy that happens to be about two

[00:10:36] kick-ass spies. And you can debate whether or not they're quote unquote kick-ass.

[00:10:41] Right. Yes, exactly.

[00:10:43] One of them is probably a little bit more adept at what they do than the other.

[00:10:48] They're definitely both talented at what they do as spies, but this isn't too much of a spoiler,

[00:10:54] but it's established in the first scene that they're kind of rejects from traditional spy

[00:11:01] organizations like the CIA, FBI, or whatever. So we already know that going in that some aspect

[00:11:08] of them is talented enough to even apply for an organization like this.

[00:11:12] Right, to be considered.

[00:11:13] Yeah. But there's something about them where they didn't make the cut on the varsity. So this is

[00:11:20] almost like a JV, but maybe not quite. So there's that going into it.

[00:11:25] And it's not fantasy violence either.

[00:11:28] No, it's not at all.

[00:11:29] It's very grounded. It's very down to earth. There are some scenes where

[00:11:34] they're limited by how far they can chase and how many people they can actually fend off and

[00:11:40] a number of other things. So it borders on the hyper fantasy violence, but it always stays just

[00:11:46] inside the line. I think that's a really good thing that separates this from the movie or any

[00:11:53] other kind of similar shows.

[00:11:55] Yeah. I think the other thing I would tell someone going into it is that episode one,

[00:12:01] if you haven't watched it yet, episode one, I think it's a slow... I don't want to describe

[00:12:07] it exactly as a slow burn, but there isn't a lot of action in episode one. There's great setup

[00:12:14] for who they are as a character. There are some scenes where they cut back and forth between

[00:12:20] an interview process that they go through with this mysterious organization. I love the editing

[00:12:26] and how that was done.

[00:12:27] Right.

[00:12:28] Where you don't hear the question being asked, but you can tell...

[00:12:31] The answers based on...

[00:12:33] ...by the answers.

[00:12:33] Yeah.

[00:12:34] And they start right at the beginning establishing not only the different characteristics and the

[00:12:40] different personalities of them by juxtaposing their answers, but even the different histories.

[00:12:47] Because you get an idea of the kind of relationship they have with their parents.

[00:12:52] One of the interview questions, the My At-Risk-ing character Jane says,

[00:12:57] oh, you're going to pay me not to have a relationship with my dad? Where do I start?

[00:13:01] Right.

[00:13:01] Some of those lines. Whereas Donald...

[00:13:03] Yeah. So you're set up for who she is as a character right away.

[00:13:07] Totally. And Donald Glover's like, he loves his mom. He's close to his mom, which plays a...

[00:13:13] A role.

[00:13:13] It's almost like a throwaway line in this first scene.

[00:13:16] Mm-hmm.

[00:13:17] But it definitely has a significant meaning later on, even up until the finale.

[00:13:23] Right.

[00:13:23] So I love that setup.

[00:13:26] And the way that they've structured the season as the trajectory of a couple...

[00:13:30] Yeah.

[00:13:31] ...as the relationship works. And the titles for the episodes are even...

[00:13:35] Yeah, read all the titles.

[00:13:35] ...first date, second date, vacation, double date, do you want kids, can I have kids?

[00:13:40] Yeah.

[00:13:41] Parentheses, naked and afraid.

[00:13:50] Right.

[00:13:51] Infidelity and a breakup.

[00:13:53] A breakup. Yeah.

[00:13:54] Yeah. And so, yeah, in many ways it's the anatomy of a relationship.

[00:14:00] Absolutely.

[00:14:03] And I love it when a show can do this is that they can take something mundane that we've seen

[00:14:10] in a lot of other occasions and a lot of other shows and movies,

[00:14:14] and then somehow turn it inside out, kind of a Mobius loop style.

[00:14:19] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:20] And suddenly... And change the context. And suddenly what seems mundane becomes imperative

[00:14:26] and it drives action and it really hooks your attention into like,

[00:14:31] how are they going to navigate this now?

[00:14:32] Right.

[00:14:33] What is this going to mean for the relationship?

[00:14:35] You know, when stuff happens and they're like, it brings them together or it pushes them apart.

[00:14:42] Right.

[00:14:42] And you can then really... I think Fargo did this in a lot of ways as well.

[00:14:48] And what was the Sam Esmail movie just recently about the disaster?

[00:14:53] Oh, yes, yes, yes. Leave it...

[00:14:56] Leave the world behind.

[00:14:57] Leave the world behind.

[00:14:58] Right.

[00:14:59] Same kind of thing where here's a bunch of normal mundane human relationship stuff.

[00:15:05] And then now we're going to wrap it around these really extreme circumstances.

[00:15:09] And then what does that do? And what can that tell us about our relationships?

[00:15:13] And I think this is what fiction does great is that we can learn so much more about ourselves

[00:15:19] and society and our lives by creating these fictional worlds and seeing what happens.

[00:15:25] But in these cases, these are extremes, right? Super extremes. And when a show can pull that

[00:15:33] off, man, so good. So, so good. And the chemistry between Erskine and Glover is so... I don't know

[00:15:42] how to describe it. I don't know how to put my finger on it.

[00:15:46] It's palpable.

[00:15:47] Huh?

[00:15:48] I was saying it's palpable.

[00:15:49] Yeah, yeah. But it's weird and it's kind of awkward. And

[00:15:54] I don't know. I don't want to get in trouble for being a generationalist,

[00:15:58] but it felt very millennial in some ways as well. There were some

[00:16:01] vibes and sort of relationship moves that as a Gen Xer, I'd be like, why are you doing that?

[00:16:05] That's so weird. But yet it was just... They inhabited their roles so well that the acting

[00:16:11] was sublime in some cases. So...

[00:16:14] Yeah, no, it was great. And I love how you brought up, you were talking about

[00:16:17] fiction and what fiction does well. I think any genre picture, and I usually use this example

[00:16:24] when it comes to sci-fi. I feel like the best sci-fi are the science fiction stories that can

[00:16:31] illustrate a particular theme or moral brilliantly, profoundly, maybe even provocatively

[00:16:40] within the genre and then use, but still use that genre to ultimate effect. And I feel like this

[00:16:46] television show is kind of like that for the spy action.

[00:16:50] Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

[00:16:52] Because one, the spy action scenes that happen are off the chain. I feel like, particularly the

[00:16:59] episode when they're in Lake Como, which is the Do You Want Kids episode.

[00:17:04] Yep, yep, exactly.

[00:17:05] That's the one that has Ron Perlman as the guest star.

[00:17:08] Which we're going to talk about. That's one of our topics is the use of guest stars.

[00:17:11] Yeah, yeah. I mean, those shots, the fight scenes that they have,

[00:17:16] the different adventures that they go on. So I think from a spy action genre piece...

[00:17:21] It satisfies.

[00:17:22] It totally satisfies. But like I was saying earlier,

[00:17:25] I wouldn't call it a spy action TV show. It's a romantic dramedy. And that is just set

[00:17:34] in a spy action genre movie. And the relationships between these two, it's real. It's authentic.

[00:17:42] I think that the most common criticism I've heard is how fast they kind of develop.

[00:17:51] Yeah, I was surprised.

[00:17:53] Because it's pretty much by episode two, they are locked in. And my response to that is,

[00:18:02] well, one, I think when you throw two people who are attractive into such a situation where

[00:18:11] things are heightened, and they're sharing this heightened experience, it doesn't take much for

[00:18:17] that to create a bond and connection.

[00:18:21] Sure, yeah.

[00:18:22] Especially a sexual one, right?

[00:18:23] Right.

[00:18:24] And I think that's kind of what...

[00:18:25] Especially high risk.

[00:18:26] Especially high risk.

[00:18:28] Absolutely. And I think that's sort of like the spark to their romantic relationship

[00:18:35] is a sexual encounter that they have relatively early from a relationship standpoint. But come on,

[00:18:41] who here has not hit it off with someone on a first date or whatever? On a first date even.

[00:18:50] They didn't even hit it off on the first date. It was like the second date, literally,

[00:18:54] according to the show, before they actually hit it off. So, I didn't have an issue with how fast

[00:19:00] their relationship progressed. And by the next episode, when it's clear that they've had a

[00:19:07] relationship... Because in episode twos, when the heat kind of kicks off between them, but it isn't

[00:19:14] to episode three until it's established that they have a relationship. But you don't really have,

[00:19:20] to my knowledge, if I recall, they don't really make it clear how much time has elapsed between

[00:19:25] episodes two and three. And so, it could be a few weeks as far as we know where that could

[00:19:32] have grown and developed. So, I didn't have an issue with how fast the relationship grew.

[00:19:38] So, we should maybe take a quick break and then when we come back, we'll start to work through

[00:19:43] our outline.

[00:19:44] Yeah.

[00:19:45] It's available on Amazon Prime, all six episodes. So, you can stream it now. So,

[00:19:49] if you haven't seen it yet, definitely put it in your rotation.

[00:19:53] But then when we come back from our break, we'll get into it.

[00:20:10] And we are back. Okay, Ron, let's start to work through your outline here that you put together,

[00:20:18] because you said this show is your obsession. So, I want to follow you down this rabbit hole

[00:20:24] a little bit.

[00:20:25] Yeah, sure. And earlier before the break, you said there were six episodes. There are eight episodes.

[00:20:29] Oh, my apologies. Thanks for catching that. I'm in episode stew right now. We just finished True

[00:20:35] Detective.

[00:20:36] Yeah, I bet.

[00:20:37] Just starting to-

[00:20:38] Yeah, you guys are covering a lot.

[00:20:39] Shogun, yeah. And then of course, all the other stuff that trying to watch on the sides and the

[00:20:44] background and stuff. All right. So, your first note here is the evolution of the series. So,

[00:20:49] you want to talk a little bit about the development and how things rolled through?

[00:20:55] Because I know that Phoebe Waller-Bridge was originally attached to it, but then

[00:21:00] separated and then it went through some more evolution.

[00:21:04] Yeah. I'm not 100% familiar and I don't even know if it's been revealed yet specifically

[00:21:13] why Phoebe and Donald decided not to work on it together. But one of the things I just wanted

[00:21:20] to get your take on was how the show would have been different if it was Phoebe Waller-Bridge

[00:21:28] and Donald Hooper doing it as opposed to Maya Erskine. And I feel like if you've seen Fleabag,

[00:21:35] which has a similar quirkiness to it that Atlanta has in terms of the comedy and style,

[00:21:46] which is why I think those two as a pairing made sense from the get-go.

[00:21:52] And I feel like the show still would have been good, but it would have been,

[00:21:59] I think, a very different show if she was a co-writer. Because she would have been a co-creator

[00:22:06] or a co-writer on it. I think it would have... The kind of comedy she does, I think it would just...

[00:22:11] And the kind of actress she is, I think it would have come across differently. What do you think?

[00:22:17] Yeah, I think Phoebe Waller-Bridge is... I'm looking forward to seeing her more. I don't

[00:22:24] have a deep connection with her just because I haven't seen that much. She hasn't been that much.

[00:22:29] I bounced off Fleabag a little bit when it first came out and that was 2016. So, I really wasn't

[00:22:35] in the same zone as I am now with television. Whereas if I could get back around to it,

[00:22:41] I would definitely watch it as a piece of canonical show. Her energy and her affect is

[00:22:52] a much bigger personality. And I think it would have changed that where Erskine is a bit more

[00:23:00] subtle and she plays that passive aggressive controlling aspect of her character. It comes

[00:23:13] off in a much more low key way. And I think that worked really well with who Glover's character was

[00:23:20] in this, where he's dealing with his own sense of identity and his own sense of being a man and all

[00:23:28] of these kinds of things. But he's dealing with anxiety and is his asthma really that or not?

[00:23:34] But that's getting more activated by Maya Erskine's controlling nature and the way that she's

[00:23:43] always one-upping him in a way. So, I think with Phoebe Waller-Bridge, I think this is the long

[00:23:47] way of saying that with her, it would have been a completely different show because her energy,

[00:23:53] even if she was playing it down is still bright and vivacious and energetic. So, I have no idea

[00:24:00] where they would have gone with the show. I did hear a little bit that basically the way that

[00:24:07] Glover and his culture of working and the way that writers rooms work and the way that,

[00:24:13] hey, we all pile in and we're elbowing each other and we're making practical jokes on each other and

[00:24:21] laughing and telling somebody that their idea was crap. You're saying it in a loving way or

[00:24:28] in a creative way. So, I think it was just a very different creative vibe. And then so, I think from

[00:24:34] what I heard is that Waller-Bridge was like, oh, I don't know if this is my vibe. And so, it was

[00:24:38] more of an amicable stepping away that this isn't the project for us to be on together.

[00:24:44] Yeah. And now that you say that, I think I vaguely remember an interview, I don't know if it was

[00:24:51] Donald referencing that.

[00:24:53] Yeah. I think that's where I got it from too.

[00:24:55] Yeah. Talking about how his writing room works. And one of the things he talked about was the

[00:25:01] fact that he and Phoebe are good friends, but they're not necessarily friends like that.

[00:25:07] Exactly.

[00:25:08] And I think wanting to work with someone, so, Francesca Sloan ended up being the

[00:25:14] essentially the co-executive producer. And I think they're like the official showrunner

[00:25:18] who was one of his collaborators in Atlanta.

[00:25:22] She already had that kind of camaraderie with Glover.

[00:25:28] And could roll with it.

[00:25:29] And could roll with it. And obviously, Stephen, Donald's brother was involved as a creative as

[00:25:35] well. So...

[00:25:36] And Hiro Murai, who they worked with a bunch as well. So he knows how to shoot them and work

[00:25:40] with them. So yeah, there's a kind of a little crew there. That's yeah.

[00:25:44] Right.

[00:25:45] Yeah.

[00:25:46] Yeah. Yeah. No, so yeah, I think that makes sense. I think in the long run,

[00:25:51] working with the creatives that he worked with and having Maya as the counterpart,

[00:25:59] it was almost like lightning in the bottle.

[00:26:03] It just, like you said, there's a je ne sais quoi to their camaraderie that is,

[00:26:10] like I think comes out both on screen, but like even in all the press junket videos

[00:26:16] that I've seen of them together, you get that sense.

[00:26:19] And Maya Erskine seems like the kind of actor who's like, oh, what do you want me to do?

[00:26:24] You want me to like wrap myself in cellophane and light my hair in fire or whatever,

[00:26:29] I'm just trying to find some ridiculous thing. Like she's into it.

[00:26:33] She's like, where do you want to go? Okay, I'm not only going to go there,

[00:26:36] but I'm going to go further than you thought that you wanted me to go. And she's like in for it.

[00:26:41] She's ready to act. She's ready to get into weird stuff. And I think that energy with Glover,

[00:26:49] I don't even know how to contextualize Donald Glover, just his vibe. But yeah,

[00:26:56] I think it is. I think it is a lightning in a bottle situation.

[00:26:59] Yeah. And if you've seen Pin 15, which was one of her, I don't necessarily know if it was a

[00:27:05] breakout, like it wasn't her first thing or anything, but...

[00:27:08] That's what everybody references.

[00:27:09] Right, right. That is a great example of her.

[00:27:15] If you've seen her haircut in that TV show, she plays a 13 year old. The level of vulnerability

[00:27:22] you have to get to, to play some of the scenes she played in that. Similarly, like Fleabag,

[00:27:28] I think it was only a couple of seasons and I think people wanted more of it. But that was a

[00:27:35] great example of Maya showing Maya to be the kind of actor who can go to those crazy places and is

[00:27:43] willing to do that.

[00:27:45] I didn't realize that she's the voice of the main character of Blue-Eyed Samurai?

[00:27:51] Yeah, I think I remember seeing that.

[00:27:52] Yeah, I have not watched that all yet. I watched a little bit of it and I was like,

[00:27:57] I'm not sure this is something that I wanted to watch, but I don't think I understood. I didn't

[00:28:02] have a context for it yet. So I think I want to go back and check it out. So we've been talking

[00:28:09] about the chemistry between Maya and Donald, but maybe we can talk a little bit about the chemistry

[00:28:15] between John and Jane. I had to look up their names. I couldn't remember for a second. Then

[00:28:21] of course it's like, wait a minute, they're John and Jane Smith.

[00:28:23] Right, right, right. Again, I thought it was so real. One of the things I tell people is

[00:28:34] if you've been in any kind of long-term relationship, some of the scenes may be

[00:28:38] triggering in terms of like an episode, I think it's episode three where they go to the Dolomites,

[00:28:48] the Squish-O-Lay. They get into a little skirmish about eating styles and she makes fun of them,

[00:28:58] like this is how you eat. My girlfriend and I, she's always teasing me and getting on me about

[00:29:04] like how I eat. It was funny because my girlfriend's Chinese. So I remember when I first

[00:29:12] posted a trailer about this video, about the TV show before it came out. I said,

[00:29:18] oh my gosh, I can't wait to see this. This is going to be amazing.

[00:29:21] My best friend and co-host on my podcast, JD, who's always getting on my case. He was like,

[00:29:28] oh, I know why you're excited to see it. You get like a wink, wink.

[00:29:31] Because you're mirroring your life.

[00:29:33] Exactly.

[00:29:34] I would be lying if I didn't. Whenever you see something that looks like you on television,

[00:29:42] that you don't normally see, it is something that kind of, something you kind of relate to, right?

[00:29:48] Sure, yeah.

[00:29:50] Being a black man in a relationship with an Asian woman, there is an aspect of this TV show

[00:29:55] that kind of spoke to me in that sense. Although, except for one line in the marriage counselor

[00:30:04] episode, the issue of them being an interracial relationship is not at all really talked about

[00:30:09] throughout the series.

[00:30:11] And there's one line in the finale where she says something along the lines of, I always

[00:30:16] thought you thought of me as a white girl. Because she's, I guess within the context of the story,

[00:30:21] she's technically biracial. Her dad is Japanese and her mom is white, is the implication I got.

[00:30:27] But so there's that aspect.

[00:30:29] But she's coding white.

[00:30:31] Do you think she codes white?

[00:30:35] Physically, she does not look white.

[00:30:38] But no, but dress and manner and speak and all of that kind of stuff in the common social space

[00:30:44] of a restaurant or something like that.

[00:30:46] Absolutely.

[00:30:47] She's coding whether she's being received as white, but she's signaling white anyway, her outward.

[00:30:54] Right, right. Which again, in the context of the story,

[00:30:58] she does not have a good relationship with her Japanese father. So it would make sense that

[00:31:04] there's probably an aspect of her that wanted to be cut off from her Japaneseness in a sense.

[00:31:11] Well, doesn't that drive some of her psychopathy, some of her self-loathing?

[00:31:18] The way that she then over achieves because of that.

[00:31:21] That's an interesting point. I think you're right. Yeah, absolutely. I think you're right.

[00:31:25] I think you're right. But yeah, go ahead.

[00:31:28] No, no.

[00:31:29] I was going to say they're going back to their chemistry.

[00:31:32] Yeah, yeah.

[00:31:33] The different arguments they have. I mentioned the food anything episode.

[00:31:39] And then the vacation, like when you go on vacation and you make friends with other people

[00:31:44] and the vacation stuff, and she's just like red flag, no, this is not happening.

[00:31:51] I don't want a vacation couple friend. We're not here for that. Why am I on a mission?

[00:31:55] I was completely vibing with him. It's like, no, make friends,

[00:31:59] chat with people, be kind.

[00:32:01] Which is so much how I am also. That was another thing that I was relating to because

[00:32:08] aside from the racial similarities, and my girlfriend teases me about how I eat,

[00:32:14] I'm very much the fun, affable one. And she is too, I'm not saying she's not, but I'm definitely

[00:32:20] more like the glover type.

[00:32:21] Yeah. Somebody who's leaning forward as opposed to leaning back a little bit.

[00:32:24] Right, right. Exactly. And I am definitely someone who, I would say,

[00:32:34] I don't like to read as much. I wouldn't say don't, which is ironic because I'm an author and

[00:32:38] I wrote a book. My girlfriend loves to read. She has a bunch of books. And in the TV show,

[00:32:44] Jane loves to read. And she reads, I think they referenced The Prophet.

[00:32:50] That's the one.

[00:32:51] That's totally the kind of book my girlfriend reads. She reads these types of, because she,

[00:32:56] and so I found that interesting too. But later on in the series, early,

[00:33:04] Donald pretends that he's read it. He says it's one of his favorite books.

[00:33:07] Which is a breach of trust in the relationship.

[00:33:10] Right. But I love how they dealt with it because the way it comes up later

[00:33:15] in that marriage counselor episode where it becomes obvious to Jane that he's never read it.

[00:33:23] Is that episode six there?

[00:33:24] Episode six, yeah. It becomes obvious to Jane, she hasn't read it, he hasn't read it,

[00:33:29] and it makes her so upset. And this is another thing that I kind of related to,

[00:33:33] the context in which he made the line when he said that he did was almost a throwaway.

[00:33:41] He said it because he was jealous of the hot neighbor, which we should talk about,

[00:33:45] played by Paul Dena. And it was at a time where they were still early. I don't even know

[00:33:53] if they were technically in a relationship yet. Maybe he was having feelings for her,

[00:33:59] but they hadn't really hooked up yet. And so, it wasn't like they were in a situation

[00:34:06] where he had an obligation to be 100% honest with anything because they are already in a situation

[00:34:13] where they don't know each other's backgrounds. They don't know each other's real names.

[00:34:17] They don't really know each other's backgrounds. It's kind of revealed to us early on that they're

[00:34:23] lying to each other because at that vacation, they're asking each other about like,

[00:34:29] who, how many people have you killed? Right. Which is how many people have you slept with, right?

[00:34:34] Right, right. It's like the body count, right? Exactly.

[00:34:37] And he lies because the answers they give are different than the ones they gave-

[00:34:41] To the HiHi.

[00:34:42] To the HiHi interview in the mysterious organization in the first episode. So,

[00:34:48] we already know they've established the fact that they are both being dishonest with one another.

[00:34:54] Right.

[00:34:54] So, it was odd that when this revelation came up that Jane would take it so seriously

[00:35:01] knowing that at the time he said that, they weren't that close. It was a totally different thing.

[00:35:07] That's another thing-

[00:35:08] Interesting, interesting. Yeah.

[00:35:09] That was another thing kind of related to where you're in a relationship with someone-

[00:35:12] The history and context of how things happened in the relationship.

[00:35:17] And then way out here, she's taking it as a breach of trust when way back there, the context was-

[00:35:24] Wasn't there.

[00:35:24] We were just bullshitting.

[00:35:25] Right, totally.

[00:35:27] We're trying to figure each other out.

[00:35:28] And to me, it kind of felt like Ken where when a partner gets mad that their partner

[00:35:40] never told them about some kind of ex or some kind of relationship that they had-

[00:35:44] Right, yep, yep.

[00:35:44] Prior to them being in a relationship. And it comes out later that they had a relationship.

[00:35:49] Right, I forgot about-

[00:35:50] Yeah.

[00:35:50] Yeah.

[00:35:51] Which actually happens in this too, but I don't think she gets as upset about it.

[00:35:55] But I'm just talking about in general-

[00:35:56] Was that the second date one where he meets-

[00:35:58] Where he meets an ex-

[00:35:59] Where they were in the farmer's market.

[00:36:00] Right.

[00:36:00] She psychs him out with the-

[00:36:02] Right.

[00:36:06] And that was the other thing that I thought, that's another thing that I kind of related to.

[00:36:10] So for reference, in the second date episode, which I think is episode-

[00:36:16] Second date four.

[00:36:17] Number two.

[00:36:18] Oh, four?

[00:36:18] Oh, it was number two.

[00:36:19] Yeah, number two.

[00:36:20] Yeah.

[00:36:23] So I'm talking about double date. It's the double date.

[00:36:25] Oh, double date, right. Okay.

[00:36:26] Double date.

[00:36:26] That's the-

[00:36:27] Are you talking about the second John and Janes?

[00:36:30] Yes.

[00:36:30] Yes, the high risk, the high, high risk people.

[00:36:32] Yes, the high risk.

[00:36:33] So that's the episode where-

[00:36:35] Oh, that's where that episode was wild.

[00:36:37] John and Jane one are shopping at an outside farmer's market or something.

[00:36:41] Right.

[00:36:42] And-

[00:36:43] Which I love as a, just having moved from New York, it was really great to see all these

[00:36:48] New York scenes. I was like, I know that market.

[00:36:49] Yes, I heard that.

[00:36:50] I know that train. I know the, you know, I know that neighborhood. Maybe not that specific

[00:36:54] house, but I know that street. Yeah, so.

[00:36:56] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But I thought it was interesting. So that's the episode where they meet one of

[00:37:03] John's exes.

[00:37:04] Right.

[00:37:04] And one, I thought it was interesting how she responded because there was no jealousy,

[00:37:09] it seemed to be in her part. But I love the fact that she kind of teases him by saying,

[00:37:14] oh, I think it's so cool that you didn't mind the fact that she didn't have a hand.

[00:37:20] And the fact that he couldn't-

[00:37:23] And they shot it so well. I was watching the whole episode looking for the hand.

[00:37:27] And the fact that he couldn't remember that, like I have ADHD. So that happens to me. It's

[00:37:32] like, wait, did I not do something? And you could see in his face, he could not remember

[00:37:38] whether or not she had a hand. And I thought that was a nice little-

[00:37:44] But then that goes into her psychology too, in the same way that she set him up with the laptop.

[00:37:51] Right. Remind us about that.

[00:37:53] The fake porn.

[00:37:54] The fake porn, right.

[00:37:58] So good.

[00:37:58] She was playing him so well.

[00:38:00] Yeah. And then the cat, right? The cat is this emotional security for her. And of course,

[00:38:06] that's the thing that ends up... I'm glad they didn't... Well, anyway, they showed the cat.

[00:38:13] They broke a rule in the sense of like you killed a pet.

[00:38:17] But that's one of the triggering things that set them at odds with each other because that was the

[00:38:23] one place that she emote and be vulnerable with this cat being as opposed to all this trickery and

[00:38:31] lies and history with her dad and all of the work stuff, her dishonesty that when she's trying to

[00:38:42] pretend to the world that she's honest. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

[00:38:46] All right. So you want to talk a little bit about the relationship issue. Should we segue into the

[00:38:51] marriage counselor episode? Because that's a real inflection point, isn't it?

[00:38:55] Yeah, absolutely. So I think this is going to go down as one of the favorites of the season for a

[00:39:02] lot of people. And I think because there's so many layers cinematically storytelling wise going on.

[00:39:12] You have this marriage counselor that they're meeting played by Sarah Paulson, who's hilarious.

[00:39:19] She's so good.

[00:39:20] Please don't play that. Please don't play that.

[00:39:25] Like the way she plays the sort of white liberal-

[00:39:30] Oh my God.

[00:39:32] And the way she pronounces these exotic words like, I got this from Mbaktu.

[00:39:41] And it's just so funny. She's like, please don't play that. And all these little...

[00:39:48] But at the same time, some of the advice she gives as a counselor, having been through enough

[00:39:55] counseling such as myself, are pretty spot on. She's not a cartoon of a counselor.

[00:40:02] Right.

[00:40:02] There's aspects of her. It's like she rides that line of being a little bit silly,

[00:40:10] but not unrealistic in terms of her character. So you have that. So you have Sarah Paulson

[00:40:17] threading that needle really well. You have the cinematography and the use of color

[00:40:22] and the use of blocking. During the first session, it's bright and warm. They're sitting next to each

[00:40:28] other. They're touching each other. And by the last session, the tone is cool. They're on opposite

[00:40:34] ends of the sofa. They're not talking. And I think there are three or four sessions. So we slowly see

[00:40:42] this happening. And it's something that's subconscious. I love that.

[00:40:46] The way that the tension in the relationship is unfolded by the counseling sessions was a really

[00:40:54] great device. I didn't notice the tonal lighting stuff, but that's a great pick. Obviously,

[00:40:59] you pick up on the body language. And by the time he's way off in the corner and spread out and

[00:41:04] like, oh, you know. But it really was an awesome way to drive the story forward by cutting the

[00:41:16] scenes. And then, of course, when you leave, that's when you have these really weird conversations with

[00:41:22] your person, your therapy with you're like, this is weird. We're just supposed to talk now and say

[00:41:29] stuff. And I actually think that was something because having gone through marriage counseling

[00:41:36] with my ex, who we had an amical divorce and I love the fact that we were able to have one,

[00:41:41] but we were married for a long time. And the sessions that we went through,

[00:41:47] and I'd been in relationship sessions with past girlfriends. So I've a lot of experience

[00:41:52] with that kind of thing. And that is one of the interesting aspects of when you go to any

[00:41:58] counselor are the awkward conversations afterwards, where you're processing some of

[00:42:04] the things that were revealed, what they said. The fact that she was getting the impression

[00:42:12] that the counselor was being, was liking him more, which is again, something that

[00:42:20] comes up sometimes, that sense of, it seems like they're on your side versus my side,

[00:42:26] which may or may not necessarily be a reality. It could be in a person's head.

[00:42:30] So I thought that was interesting. And then the other thing about that episode was,

[00:42:35] it was a good balance between relationship and action. There was some pretty cool action scenes

[00:42:43] in that series. There was one where Maya is fighting the dude in the elevator.

[00:42:48] Oh, I forgot about that. I forgot that that was in this one. Yeah.

[00:42:51] She's holding her own. And that's where we see his asthma, because they're going up the elevator

[00:42:57] and he's running up the steps and his asthma is kicking in and she's kicking ass with this

[00:43:01] other dude. And then I think the only other one, there was another scene where they're running,

[00:43:08] because they're talking about some scene where they're, and you see them running down the street.

[00:43:11] There was that. And then there was the scene where this, and this, so this was the episode

[00:43:15] where they had a little bit of a reference to their interracial relationship. And to the extent

[00:43:23] that there may be some type of, I would say, like, I wouldn't say like stress or strife,

[00:43:33] but there's some kind of dynamic in terms of, because he references in this one job they're on

[00:43:41] where he's having to vibe with these other, I don't know if they're drug dealers, but these

[00:43:45] three other black dudes. That was an amazing scene. It was such a cool scene. Yeah. Because

[00:43:51] he's trying to integrate and infiltrate and just be a normal dude. And he's also being his

[00:43:58] charming self and making people laugh and having a good time. And she's like,

[00:44:03] I'm over it. Bang. Right. Right. Right. That was so good. It was really good. And I thought it was

[00:44:08] in so- Oh, and it was, that's right. Because when he started talking about his wife,

[00:44:14] right. And saying some stuff, that's when she lost her temper with it.

[00:44:20] And what's interesting, so I don't know how many people will pick up on this,

[00:44:24] but he mentions that his, so he's talking to these black dudes and they're saying like,

[00:44:29] who's your, you know, who, like, who are you married to? And he says, he's in a racial

[00:44:34] relationship. And one of them says, oh, is that Latina? And then he says something along the

[00:44:38] lines, no, she's Asian. Right. And then he says something along the lines, you know, he mentioned

[00:44:44] that she's Japanese, but he says she could be low key Korean. Right. Yes. And that's it.

[00:44:51] I don't know how many people know this, but there is a sort of enmity between Japanese people and

[00:44:57] Korean people. And that obviously that's a generalization, but in terms of the-

[00:45:03] There's real history there though. There's real history between-

[00:45:06] Did you watch Pachinko?

[00:45:07] No, but it came up in, have you ever seen, what was that comedy? It was a comedian comedy about

[00:45:16] a Korean family that own a shop in, I want to say Toronto.

[00:45:22] I don't, it's not ringing a bell. Is it sort of a regular two camera sitcom type thing or-

[00:45:27] Right, right. It's one that Simu Liu was on before he got big.

[00:45:31] Okay. It's not ringing a bell, but that doesn't-

[00:45:33] Well, anyway, on that show, they touch on that particular topic a lot.

[00:45:38] Well, Pachinko goes deep into that thing because it's a Korean family that then is living in Japan

[00:45:45] and a lot of stuff that goes on there. And that, did you like Station 11? Did you see that?

[00:45:50] I didn't finish it. But did I come up in Station 11?

[00:45:53] No, it's just, I'm talking about the vibes, the sort of vapors that are just above the surface

[00:45:59] of a show. And I was getting the same kind of high off of both of those shows, like really

[00:46:05] soulful, really beautiful, really deeply moving. And that's a particular favorite of mine is when

[00:46:11] a show can sort of, it's like if you're eating Szechuan peppers and you kind of get that hot

[00:46:18] food, you get sort of high off of that. That's for me, a particular kind of drama can do that.

[00:46:23] So I love Pachinko's story.

[00:46:25] The TV show I was trying to remember is Kim's Convenience.

[00:46:28] Okay. I don't think I saw that.

[00:46:30] It was a comedy, it was on the CBC and it was a Korean family, Korean immigrants. And oftentimes

[00:46:40] the Korean dad would complain about Japanese versus Korean. So that's something that would

[00:46:46] have come up. But as you pointed out, it was shortly after he made that comment where she

[00:46:51] decides to shoot everybody. And then how she just nonchalantly says, I'm hungry, let's go eat.

[00:47:03] And his reaction in that scene, he's just like, and then he has to kill the last guy.

[00:47:09] Wild, wild.

[00:47:10] And I think he was justifying being angry because he did almost get shot once they realized that,

[00:47:15] oh, they were being set up to be assassinated.

[00:47:18] Yeah. And I think that's something to play forward from that a little bit is

[00:47:25] there are so many times in an episode, especially if it was a slower paced or lower keyed episode

[00:47:33] where the tension of what's about to happen, like with the other John and Jane Smith or

[00:47:41] that one, or when they're in the Dolomites where they're going through this relationship stuff. And

[00:47:48] I'm just on the needle pin because I'm just waiting for an explosion to happen, for an

[00:47:52] assassin to burst in the door towards the end with the breakup stuff. Or actually it's in episode

[00:48:00] seven. I forget the woman's name, the other spy.

[00:48:03] Oh my God, yeah, Cole.

[00:48:05] Yeah. There are so many moments where you're constantly on edge, but nothing's going on.

[00:48:13] The threat of violence or the potentiality is building and building and building in that

[00:48:19] sort of Hitchcockian way where what's going to trigger and release all of this energy that's

[00:48:26] winding up in the system and what's going to trigger it and then spring out and then what's

[00:48:31] going to happen. And I loved that they were able to keep me on the edge of my seat every episode.

[00:48:38] I was just biting my nails nervous about what is it going to be? What's going to set things off?

[00:48:44] I absolutely agree with you. I think they did that really well in the double date episode

[00:48:49] because the whole time they're eating at dinner... First of all, I was nervous when the

[00:48:56] Wagner Mara character even met him in the first place. There was something

[00:49:01] like... You just don't meet another John.

[00:49:03] Right, right. You just don't meet another John. So what's going on? So there was that. And then

[00:49:08] during the dinner, the whole time, are they telling them too much information or they're

[00:49:14] showing them too much? And then when they say they're going to go on this adventure or this job

[00:49:20] with them and the looks on their faces when they realize that they're being set up to do the job

[00:49:27] themselves was...

[00:49:29] And the way that the show then would drop these little things that then played out later on,

[00:49:35] little clues, little hints, little things. The very first opening scene

[00:49:41] is telling us the end of the show.

[00:49:45] Oh, you're right.

[00:49:46] Because they're killing... That's Wagner and what's her name?

[00:49:51] We can assume it is.

[00:49:53] Yeah, completely. That's what-

[00:49:54] We don't know for sure, but that's what it seems like.

[00:49:56] But regardless of whether it's the actual... It's telling us this was another John and Jane

[00:50:03] and they're being killed by another set of assassins.

[00:50:06] Absolutely.

[00:50:06] That's what's coming in. And so the whole time, they're building these little things

[00:50:11] and dropping these little clues and hints that actually play significant roles later on with

[00:50:17] the resolution of the whole plot.

[00:50:19] Yeah, for sure. Before we move on from the marriage counseling episode,

[00:50:25] I wanted to bring up that fight during the camp scene because I think that's-

[00:50:29] Oh, right.

[00:50:30] That's the scene that stands out. It's so raw.

[00:50:34] He's fishing.

[00:50:35] It's so raw. And for me, it was one of the laugh out loud moments where he's talking about

[00:50:48] everything he did. He caught fish, whatever, he built a fire. And she's like,

[00:50:52] oh, me being caveman, me build fire. Just the way it fell on me was so funny. But the height at

[00:51:01] which... The things they were saying, the way they were saying it felt so real. The way that she was

[00:51:07] coming at him and his mom, the way he was saying you don't have the ability to have a relationship

[00:51:15] with somebody. Just the kind of things that people who really care for each other knows.

[00:51:23] They would know not to say in normal circumstances and they know that they're the kind of things

[00:51:29] that you can never take back. And those are some of the worst kind of arguments you can have.

[00:51:34] When you say something to someone you love dearly, the kind of thing that hurts more than even a gunshot

[00:51:42] wound. And you know, you can never take it back. I feel like that argument rose to that level.

[00:51:47] When you let go and let the hate flow through you.

[00:51:51] And you let the lightning bolts out of your hands and you say that thing that... And it feels so

[00:51:56] good in the moment of the heat. You're like, yeah, I'm going to stab you right back. And like,

[00:52:01] oh, wait a minute. That was probably a day or two later, like, maybe I shouldn't have...

[00:52:06] That was not a good idea. It was very real.

[00:52:10] No, absolutely. The Gottmans. I'm a fan of the Gottmans, which is... He's a famous marriage.

[00:52:16] He and his wife are a famous marriage counselor. And they studied married couples for like three

[00:52:23] decades, he and his partner. And then from that, they were able to actually successfully predict

[00:52:29] how many couples would stay together, how many married couples stay together.

[00:52:34] And one of the things he talks about are the four horsemen of the apocalypse of a relationship.

[00:52:39] And one of them is contempt. And I think we see that in that fight. And in a relationship in

[00:52:45] general, we see that building up. Well, and then the way that she's relating to him from a work

[00:52:49] standpoint where he's saying you're always taking the credit and she's... Whatever her drive to...

[00:52:55] Yes.

[00:52:56] She has contempt for him.

[00:52:59] Yeah.

[00:52:59] And he feels that. He can feel that sliding every time.

[00:53:02] Absolutely.

[00:53:04] Guest stars. The John Turturro episode.

[00:53:09] Oh, my gosh.

[00:53:11] After I watched that, I was watching in bed on my laptop and my wife is like... She ended up

[00:53:17] watching with me. I was just like, what the hell did I just watch? John Turturro directing weird

[00:53:25] psychosexual scenes.

[00:53:28] Which is... I can't remember I heard it, but someone said something along the lines of

[00:53:32] super rich people like creepy sex stuff.

[00:53:38] Which is definitely...

[00:53:40] It's a mythology that we have, right?

[00:53:43] What goes on beyond with those...

[00:53:45] Is it a mythology though, Dan?

[00:53:47] I don't know.

[00:53:48] I don't know if it's a myth. I think we have enough evidence where there's...

[00:53:52] I think anybody, I think everybody is weirdly sexual in their own way.

[00:53:55] I think so.

[00:53:56] You can make that argument.

[00:53:58] Everyone has their little kinks for sure.

[00:53:59] Exactly.

[00:54:02] I don't know how many people have a kink of wanting to literally play dog and lick each

[00:54:07] other as a way of kissing.

[00:54:10] And the double stab of the truth serum.

[00:54:13] Which I thought was a great foreshadowing. I don't know if it technically was a foreshadowing,

[00:54:18] but how in the finale...

[00:54:21] Okay. Yeah.

[00:54:22] Where the truth serum comes up and you're wondering... We know that anyone getting two

[00:54:27] at once is going to die.

[00:54:29] Right.

[00:54:29] And then so he makes you wonder in the finale if that's how he's going to...

[00:54:31] But that's what I mean about these little things, these little devices,

[00:54:34] little things that they place throughout the... So they have a vision of the entire season.

[00:54:39] Right.

[00:54:39] And they construct little things that are innocuous at the time, but then play a really

[00:54:45] important role at the end.

[00:54:48] Yeah. We'll save that for later when we talk about the finale.

[00:54:50] Yeah.

[00:54:50] But back to guest stars. So John Turturro.

[00:54:54] And I'm pretty sure, except for the first episode, I think every episode has some kind

[00:55:01] of special guest star.

[00:55:02] Right. The Ron Perlman was, I think, my favorite guest star appearance, maybe next to the John

[00:55:10] Turturro because it was so recognizable as a parent that he is their baby.

[00:55:18] He's like their baby. Absolutely.

[00:55:20] And when he kicks him off the little roof, I've done that.

[00:55:24] When my daughter, the first time she wanted to go, we were going to go sledding with friends,

[00:55:28] right? And this was during the pandemic and we're at the perfect hill on this little sled.

[00:55:34] And she gets all set and she froze.

[00:55:38] And I just tapped the sled with my foot and sent her down the hill.

[00:55:43] And then she came running back up. She was like, I'm going again. And from that moment on,

[00:55:47] she was a big fan of doing the sledding. But I kind of felt that in that scene, it's different,

[00:55:54] but it's the same thing where it's just like, get over it, go, you'll be fine.

[00:55:59] I can see it. You're not hearing me saying that it's going to be fine.

[00:56:04] So I just got to push you a little bit.

[00:56:05] Yeah. No. Perfect analogy in terms of their discussion and the scene where they're getting

[00:56:14] hot and heavy and they're about to go at it. And then he knocks on the glass and interrupts them.

[00:56:25] Total kid move to do, mom and dad are trying to have a moment.

[00:56:30] And then the coercion, oh, you can have a cigarette if you do this thing.

[00:56:34] Right. He never planned.

[00:56:36] Right. And bribery, right? Bribery is, it was at three, two, three, four years old,

[00:56:42] we were constantly using bribery as a tool to get through something or get to the next thing.

[00:56:48] So as a parent, I felt really seen in that episode.

[00:56:54] What are your thoughts about, so in that scene, they have to take him to a safe house.

[00:56:58] Right.

[00:56:58] The safe house has been compromised. And then they take him to this secret house.

[00:57:04] Again, another great relationship thing. He went out and bought a house without talking to his wife.

[00:57:09] Yeah. Right.

[00:57:11] But are you my wife?

[00:57:12] You're right. Right. Well, the fact that they, which establishes how much money they have.

[00:57:19] Yes.

[00:57:19] That he just buy a house.

[00:57:21] Yes. In Lake Como.

[00:57:23] In Lake Como, which if I ever do retire, it's going to be at some Italian water side town for sure.

[00:57:31] I've been to Lake Como and it's gorgeous.

[00:57:32] Yeah. It's totally beautiful.

[00:57:34] But your thoughts on, so I have a theory that the high, high, the securitization

[00:57:43] set them up and that whole thing was a test for them.

[00:57:46] Interesting.

[00:57:48] A test to see if they're ready to go to the next level.

[00:57:52] Test to see how they deal with it. Because for two reasons, one, that would explain

[00:57:59] how they were able to find his house. Because that means they're obviously tracking a prominent

[00:58:07] character because she even asked them, how are you going to know where to meet us?

[00:58:11] We'll know.

[00:58:12] We'll know. So we know that they're tracking him,

[00:58:16] which leads me to believe they're the ones who sent the killers to the house.

[00:58:22] Okay.

[00:58:23] And I noticed that the killer's chasing them, were driving Land Rovers and everyone in the

[00:58:27] organization drives Land Rovers.

[00:58:29] Interesting. Oh, that's a good pick. I didn't think about that.

[00:58:33] The corporate deal on the cars.

[00:58:35] Right. Exactly.

[00:58:36] They drive. One thing I wanted to mention really quick too on the high, high thing.

[00:58:40] It was so very severance for me.

[00:58:44] The weird corporation, we don't really know what's going on.

[00:58:47] The TV show Severance, right?

[00:58:47] Yeah. The TV show Severance. So I got very Severance vibes from the whole high, high thing.

[00:58:52] You know what? I did not think about it at the time, but now that you mentioned that,

[00:58:57] I do get that feeling because the sense of like, they don't know who high, high is.

[00:59:02] They only communicate through this, you know, and even-

[00:59:05] This weird one controlled portal. Yeah.

[00:59:07] And even the chatbot has sort of like a retro look because it uses like courier font.

[00:59:14] And so, yeah, good call on that.

[00:59:17] And I think as much as the show is a examination of relationship, it's also,

[00:59:23] it really braces the whole gig economy sort of thing.

[00:59:27] Because that's, it's immediately recognizable if anybody has ever done

[00:59:31] gig work like that off of a website and stuff.

[00:59:35] You feel very much, oh, two fails left.

[00:59:37] Oh, I got a four and a half star rating instead of a five star rating on tax

[00:59:41] rabbit or whatever. You're like, oh man, that's just going to kill me now.

[00:59:44] I'm going to be like hosed.

[00:59:46] And you're always waiting for the next, you know, ping to get your job.

[00:59:50] So I thought just that modern, seeding it in that way really is, again, I think Glover

[00:59:56] and the whole, is it Francesca Sloan?

[01:00:02] All of them, the way that they constructed it, it's very identifiable as a modern cultural,

[01:00:07] all these modern cultural artifacts are there for us to pick up on.

[01:00:11] Yeah, for sure.

[01:00:13] I think the other guest star that is worth talking about is Michaela Cole,

[01:00:17] the quote unquote other woman, but she's more than just another woman.

[01:00:20] She, we learned in that episode, she's actually a member of a rival spy organization.

[01:00:27] Which is a great revelation.

[01:00:30] I can help think of the Mad Magazine spy versus spy.

[01:00:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:00:35] The little pointy hat dudes.

[01:00:36] Yeah, I love that, growing up as a kid.

[01:00:39] Yeah.

[01:00:40] So why I thought that was a cool revelation, but even the, again,

[01:00:46] the revelation of how the Jane character was hurt and the things that he revealed to the

[01:00:57] Michaela Cole, yeah, to the Michaela Cole character that he didn't do to Jane.

[01:01:01] Like the fact that he changed her perfume, which you mentioned that it made her sick,

[01:01:07] but he never did that for Jane.

[01:01:09] Mm-hmm.

[01:01:10] The fact that a job that was supposed to technically last three days has gone on for a

[01:01:16] month, I think we're starting to see Jane not only feel jealous, but also more than jealous, feel

[01:01:26] hurt because I think they established that in doing their jobs, they would sometimes have to have

[01:01:35] sex with other people.

[01:01:37] Right.

[01:01:37] Yep.

[01:01:37] And I get the impression that that doesn't bother her, but he had a connection with Michaela Cole

[01:01:44] that was beyond just the physical.

[01:01:47] And I think it's a combination of him being able to be more himself with her.

[01:01:56] Totally.

[01:01:57] And I also think, even though it's not really brought out as much, I think maybe from Jane's

[01:02:04] point of view, she wonders if it's not a racial thing as well, because we know that she is

[01:02:11] feeling like he sees her as a white girl.

[01:02:14] Right.

[01:02:14] That comes out in the finale.

[01:02:16] And we know that she commented on the racist comment he made about her being low-key Korean

[01:02:23] because she specifically brings that up in the marriage counseling episode.

[01:02:27] So it makes you wonder if she's feeling like there's some of that going on too.

[01:02:32] Is that why he connects more with her than me?

[01:02:36] And the way I was reading it was beyond the fact that does Bev know that John is a rival assassin?

[01:02:48] I love the mystery and the onion shape around it.

[01:02:52] But the fact that he can sit with her and be himself in a way and have his,

[01:03:02] not sexual needs met, but his social needs met and an understanding where he feels appreciated,

[01:03:09] where Jane is never appreciating him.

[01:03:13] Right.

[01:03:13] She's always emasculating him.

[01:03:14] She's always critiquing him or always sort of cutting him down.

[01:03:19] And after a while, that starts to hurt, right?

[01:03:22] Those things start to turn into bruises.

[01:03:24] And then when those bruises get bumped again, it hurts even more.

[01:03:28] And so for him to be able to go and sit with somebody who may have a similar perspective

[01:03:38] because of skin color, because of the way that we code race in this country.

[01:03:43] Right.

[01:03:43] He has an immediate identification with her saying we can relate without having to talk about it.

[01:03:50] We can just be in each other's presence without deconstructing or explaining the entire racial

[01:03:56] history of chattel slavery in this country or anything like that.

[01:03:59] Right.

[01:03:59] They can just be together and easy in each other's preferences.

[01:04:03] The irony is, is that they're both murdering assassins.

[01:04:07] Right.

[01:04:08] So it takes that comfort level even to the next step, which we don't even know until the big

[01:04:15] reveal.

[01:04:16] And then the way that they reveal the fact that he's like, where's my wife?

[01:04:19] Right.

[01:04:20] And the fact that then they're all spies was just a brilliant way to heighten the tension of that

[01:04:28] three-way scene.

[01:04:29] Right.

[01:04:30] And my headcanon, I think Bev knows he's a spy.

[01:04:34] Interesting.

[01:04:35] Okay.

[01:04:35] All right.

[01:04:35] She almost has no reaction when he says, where's my wife?

[01:04:40] Right.

[01:04:42] Her reaction to her, to Jane pulling the gun on her.

[01:04:46] She's very cool.

[01:04:48] And maybe she's cool just because that's how she is as an assassin herself.

[01:04:53] But when she pulled a gun, I was like, oh, this is just a civilian.

[01:04:58] And then she breaks the teapot intentionally, accidentally, who knows?

[01:05:02] But I'd be like, I'd be on my nerves if somebody pulled out a silenced pistol on me.

[01:05:07] Right.

[01:05:07] And I love her line, to be clear, we're not friends, you're holding a gun on me.

[01:05:13] So good.

[01:05:14] That was so good.

[01:05:15] The other line I love from that dialogue was when she's explaining to Jane what John has

[01:05:24] admitted and she says, he says you're not compatible, but he would rather be with you

[01:05:31] incompatibly.

[01:05:32] I thought the writing was just so beautiful.

[01:05:35] Beautiful.

[01:05:35] Yeah.

[01:05:36] Touching, really touching.

[01:05:38] Since we know that they're rival organizations, I have to believe the rival organization

[01:05:46] knows almost as much about what's happening with Haihai's organization as Haihai knows

[01:05:52] with their organization.

[01:05:53] So maybe it was kind of like a two-way thing going on.

[01:05:56] Right.

[01:05:57] Where they know that each other are spies, but they're enjoying their company so much

[01:06:03] that they don't want to act on them.

[01:06:05] Yeah.

[01:06:06] That's interesting.

[01:06:07] Interesting theory.

[01:06:08] But again, I thought that episode was another beautiful example of the mix between

[01:06:16] relationship drama and action, because the chase afterwards, the way it plays out, even how

[01:06:23] during the chase, they're having an argument, like they're having this very traditional,

[01:06:30] typical spousal argument while chasing down this killer.

[01:06:35] Whenever we would encounter somebody, or if we had friends, somebody who is getting married,

[01:06:43] I would say my unasked for, I guess not advice, but maybe observation is your relationship

[01:06:50] is in the way that you construct your wedding ceremony and all of your nuptials.

[01:06:55] And who you are as a couple is encapsulated in that process of deciding how you're going to

[01:07:02] take to set up your wedding ceremony.

[01:07:07] Whether it's a big thing, a small thing, who's planning what and how important are the colors.

[01:07:12] So the fact that the spy couple is running down the street chasing another assassin and they're

[01:07:18] having that argument, it's their relationship is right there.

[01:07:22] And that's what I love about the show is that inverting the normal with the extra normal.

[01:07:29] Yeah.

[01:07:30] Yeah.

[01:07:31] No.

[01:07:32] And I think this is another one of your bullet points, and I think it's a good segue,

[01:07:37] which is, I think my frustration with the show was that we didn't get to do this for eight weeks.

[01:07:46] Yeah.

[01:07:47] Where we would get to deconstruct and break down every episode and go over the nuance of it.

[01:07:53] Instead, we have to sort of squeeze it.

[01:07:55] We have to compress it into an hour.

[01:07:57] And I don't know why the distribution was done that way.

[01:08:02] Based on-

[01:08:04] They could have owned eight weeks of television.

[01:08:07] Or four.

[01:08:08] I think this is the kind of show where you definitely would have had to drop the first two at once.

[01:08:12] Fair, fair.

[01:08:13] Yeah, because I feel like that first one was-

[01:08:15] Slow.

[01:08:15] Not enough action to keep people who would have come to the show for the action.

[01:08:19] Because at the end of that first episode, when the bomb goes off-

[01:08:23] Oh my God.

[01:08:24] It's such a surprise.

[01:08:25] I know that house.

[01:08:26] We used to walk by that house all the time.

[01:08:28] Yeah.

[01:08:28] Oh, did they really blow it up?

[01:08:30] No, no.

[01:08:31] Yeah, no, I'm joking.

[01:08:32] But that house has been used in a number of different movie sets.

[01:08:35] And for a while, it was really run down and they had not...

[01:08:39] Parts of it had some serious problems.

[01:08:41] And then we remember that they did a big movie shoot there.

[01:08:44] And then after that, they got it all fixed up.

[01:08:47] And then I think from then on, they were on the sort of radar.

[01:08:49] Because that part of Brooklyn, which is south of Prospect Park, it's called Ditmas Park.

[01:08:57] It's all houses and tree-lined streets and houses.

[01:09:00] And so if you're shooting in New York City and you need a neighborhood with a house,

[01:09:06] that's where you go.

[01:09:07] And so our neighborhood was constantly...

[01:09:10] And we had...

[01:09:11] Parking is terrible to begin with.

[01:09:14] It's just during the summer and weeks after weeks of displacement

[01:09:18] because they're filming in your neighborhood is really annoying.

[01:09:21] Anyway, side track.

[01:09:22] Yeah, yeah, no worries.

[01:09:23] Yeah, so I think...

[01:09:26] I could even see them dropping two episodes a week.

[01:09:30] But even if they did the first two the first week and then...

[01:09:34] And the episodes are long enough.

[01:09:35] They're like 45 minutes.

[01:09:37] If they did one episode a week thereafter,

[01:09:39] they could have owned Thursday night or whatever for seven weeks.

[01:09:43] Yeah.

[01:09:44] And I feel like it would have drawn people in.

[01:09:47] I think it would have created...

[01:09:49] Our cottage industry of...

[01:09:51] Well, it's not even a cottage industry when you think of the Ringer or THR or Vanity Fair.

[01:09:56] They all have big ones as well.

[01:09:57] Right.

[01:09:57] Yeah, yeah.

[01:09:58] So yeah, Amazon is strange that way in terms of what they choose to drop all at once,

[01:10:04] what they choose not to.

[01:10:05] It's crazy.

[01:10:06] So let's talk a little bit about the final episode.

[01:10:09] Oh my Lord.

[01:10:13] Acting, the level of acting of playing under that truth serum.

[01:10:20] Oh, I love that scene.

[01:10:22] That they did.

[01:10:22] And to do that take after take, shot after shot, reset after reset to maintain that continuity of

[01:10:33] I'm drunk on this weird truth telling serum and I'm going through different phases of up and down

[01:10:41] and it's hitting me and now I'm leveling out.

[01:10:44] And all of the revelations, I couldn't believe what I was watching.

[01:10:50] I was absolutely astonished at the level of acting that was going on in that.

[01:10:55] Yeah.

[01:10:56] And I felt like that scene was a culmination of so many little inserts and so many nods of the

[01:11:07] head and tips to their relationship that they planted throughout the whole season.

[01:11:14] Yeah.

[01:11:14] Because one, the double truth serum, because that's so I remember watching that scene for

[01:11:19] the first time wondering if he was going to shoot her.

[01:11:23] You can see it in her face.

[01:11:24] She's worried that he, that is what he's going to do.

[01:11:26] That she writes that he's going to give her a double dose.

[01:11:29] And that's it.

[01:11:30] He's going to stay sober and yeah.

[01:11:32] And then she's going to die.

[01:11:34] So one, the fact that we see him do it to himself, but then we know that this is the first time

[01:11:41] where they're going to be 100% honest with each other.

[01:11:44] Amazing.

[01:11:45] In a way that they never have before.

[01:11:47] Yeah.

[01:11:47] And the things that come out in there during that time I thought was really powerful.

[01:11:54] I love the fact that they admit that, and I think this comes out later, but at some point they admit

[01:12:01] that they had a shot on each other, but purposefully missed.

[01:12:05] Yeah.

[01:12:06] Yeah.

[01:12:06] Because I remember, I even remember thinking specifically during the scene where one of

[01:12:12] them is running up to steps and the other is shooting and the bullet's trailing.

[01:12:17] Yeah.

[01:12:17] And like, how are you missing?

[01:12:19] Yeah.

[01:12:19] You're supposed to be.

[01:12:20] And then the fact that they said, you know.

[01:12:21] And they're at the peak of their skills.

[01:12:23] At this point.

[01:12:24] Totally.

[01:12:25] At this point they are, they're expert.

[01:12:27] So I love that little nugget, like, oh, that's kind of cool because that definitely hit me.

[01:12:33] Because that was one of my frustrations with the movie.

[01:12:36] That scene where there's this big shootout at the end and all the bad guys are missing them,

[01:12:41] despite the fact they have no cover.

[01:12:43] Right.

[01:12:46] But in this TV show, so I love that little nugget.

[01:12:51] But again, you know, the things that they admitted and how they admit it, and then using

[01:12:56] that scene to admit the fact that they weren't the ones that tried to kill each other.

[01:13:00] Yeah.

[01:13:00] Which they thought.

[01:13:01] And the tension of waiting for them to reveal, to make that reveal that way.

[01:13:05] Yes.

[01:13:05] No, I didn't do that.

[01:13:06] No, I didn't do that.

[01:13:08] And so all that hurt and that pain that they've been shoving at each other,

[01:13:12] killed my cat and you tried to blow up my mom.

[01:13:15] Those are deep wounds, right?

[01:13:17] Right.

[01:13:18] And the fact that you're just like, just say it, just say it wasn't you.

[01:13:22] I was feeling the same way.

[01:13:24] And then finally you're like, oh my Lord, when that relief comes.

[01:13:29] And then we learned that the other John and Jane are of course, the perpetrators behind that.

[01:13:35] And I thought it was so funny when they were still under the serum

[01:13:39] and they asked them, are there any other weapons?

[01:13:41] And they're saying, yes, there's one over here, there's one over there, and there's one.

[01:13:47] That seems funny.

[01:13:48] One thing that confused me in that scene was when John or Jane,

[01:13:54] when John too is about to sneeze.

[01:13:56] Yes.

[01:13:56] And they use that opportunity to shoot.

[01:14:00] Which is another one of those little things that they set up earlier on the season.

[01:14:05] But where did our Jane get the gun to shoot?

[01:14:07] Was it under the table?

[01:14:09] I don't remember.

[01:14:09] Is that the case?

[01:14:10] I don't remember.

[01:14:11] I'd have to watch that episode again.

[01:14:12] Because I've already seen the show twice, but I want to see it again with my girlfriend.

[01:14:16] But that was the only little thing I remember.

[01:14:19] Or was it in the flower pot or something?

[01:14:21] I can't remember.

[01:14:22] Right, right.

[01:14:23] But yeah, having John and Jane there.

[01:14:27] And it's kind of funny that John and Jane too, and Parker Posey and Wagner Mora were so good

[01:14:35] in those roles.

[01:14:36] And they're playing that sort of arrogant, highfalutin, but we're really fun, casual people,

[01:14:41] but we're not.

[01:14:42] Right.

[01:14:43] You know?

[01:14:44] Exactly.

[01:14:45] Just their shmarminess was delicious.

[01:14:48] It was.

[01:14:49] And so fun.

[01:14:49] That's it.

[01:14:49] I love that.

[01:14:50] I love how you described it.

[01:14:52] Did you ever see the Narcos?

[01:14:53] Did you ever watch Narcos?

[01:14:55] I did.

[01:14:56] Oh my gosh.

[01:14:57] Because I didn't recognize that Wagner Mora was the original...

[01:15:01] I know.

[01:15:03] Who's the drug king?

[01:15:05] Pablo Escobar.

[01:15:06] Yeah, Pablo Escobar.

[01:15:07] Because he really embodied that role.

[01:15:09] Oh.

[01:15:10] Yeah, for sure.

[01:15:12] It's funny because he's going to be in Civil War.

[01:15:15] Oh no, really?

[01:15:17] Yes, he's in Civil War.

[01:15:18] And I remember when I saw the trailer for Civil War...

[01:15:21] Such a weird show to be coming out at this time.

[01:15:24] Well, it's a movie.

[01:15:25] Oh wait, sorry.

[01:15:25] Yeah, movie.

[01:15:27] I just don't know how I feel about it.

[01:15:30] I know.

[01:15:31] It's going to be interesting.

[01:15:31] And it's A24, so it's not going to be like a low budget thing.

[01:15:34] It's going to be good.

[01:15:35] It's going to be good.

[01:15:36] But I remember seeing him and thinking that...

[01:15:38] I thought he was the guy in Last of Us.

[01:15:46] Oh, Pedro Pascal.

[01:15:47] Pedro Pascal.

[01:15:48] Yeah.

[01:15:49] But at first I thought it was Pedro Pascal.

[01:15:52] But yeah, I thought he looks night and day from his Pablo Escobar character.

[01:15:58] Yeah.

[01:15:59] Did you ever see the film that he was in called Elite Squad?

[01:16:03] I've never seen him in anything other than Narcos.

[01:16:06] If you ever happen to catch that, that's a really good movie.

[01:16:11] It's really intense.

[01:16:12] It's about Brazilian prison stuff.

[01:16:16] So yeah, it's really good.

[01:16:20] So where are you at with the finale?

[01:16:24] It's kind of a Rorschach test, isn't it?

[01:16:27] Absolutely.

[01:16:27] Absolutely.

[01:16:28] I mean, they obviously did it in a way where if this is the only season of television...

[01:16:33] Right.

[01:16:33] Perfectly ended.

[01:16:34] It's a great ending.

[01:16:35] Three shots, so we don't really know.

[01:16:41] And the fact that they thought about how many shots...

[01:16:44] Yeah.

[01:16:44] One shot, we're going to think this.

[01:16:46] Two shots, we're going to think that.

[01:16:47] Three shots, no idea.

[01:16:50] No clue.

[01:16:50] Right.

[01:16:51] And the fact that the third shot, if you go back, third shot, there's a pause between the

[01:16:56] third shot and the second shot.

[01:16:57] Yes.

[01:16:58] So the first two shots are off quick and it's the third shot.

[01:17:01] So in my head canon, they get away and the first two shots are the Parker Posey character

[01:17:07] shooting quickly when the door opens.

[01:17:09] Okay.

[01:17:10] And Jane is ducking or something.

[01:17:12] And the third shot is Jane's kill shot.

[01:17:15] Right.

[01:17:16] I like that.

[01:17:17] I was thinking that maybe she would also be...

[01:17:22] Our Jane, Maya Jane got wounded.

[01:17:26] Oh, right.

[01:17:27] Would be wounded.

[01:17:27] So they're both wounded and they're both in a bad way, but that they did get away.

[01:17:34] That's sort of where I'm at.

[01:17:37] What about the Paul?

[01:17:38] We haven't talked about Paul Dano the whole time.

[01:17:40] He has the great reveal in the finale.

[01:17:43] So one, I love...

[01:17:46] Oh, the...

[01:17:47] Yeah.

[01:17:47] I forgot about it.

[01:17:48] This is why I'm frustrated with the show.

[01:17:50] Well, I'm not the show, with Amazon, because we didn't get a time to unpack all of these

[01:17:55] different characters and all these subplots.

[01:17:56] Yeah.

[01:17:58] I kind of feel like he's cast against type as the hot neighbor.

[01:18:01] Like I never thought of Paul-

[01:18:04] He was very doughy.

[01:18:05] Right.

[01:18:05] I never thought of Paul Dano as hot.

[01:18:08] No.

[01:18:09] But I think in this series, he has a sort of suave, debonair-esque to him that...

[01:18:19] You're not so sure.

[01:18:19] I'm not so sure.

[01:18:21] All right.

[01:18:22] Because I kind of know who he is from the neighborhood that he's living in.

[01:18:26] So I'm kind of like, you're not hot.

[01:18:29] You got too much money and you don't deserve it.

[01:18:31] Yeah.

[01:18:31] You're kind of a...

[01:18:33] But I love the fact where he says, I'm an agent.

[01:18:37] And first time he says he is an agent, and then you realize, oh, he's a real estate agent.

[01:18:43] He's a real estate agent.

[01:18:45] Right.

[01:18:46] And then they end this...

[01:18:48] Don't they end the whole series on the fact that he's like, yeah, we're going to get it for a good

[01:18:52] price or whatever?

[01:18:53] Right.

[01:18:53] Right.

[01:18:54] So I could...

[01:18:57] So he was...

[01:18:58] I think that was a fun ending, a fun reveal.

[01:19:00] Yeah.

[01:19:01] So if they were to bring the show back, what would be your hope?

[01:19:08] Because there have been conversations that it could easily be something similar to how

[01:19:18] a White Lotus is, an anthology series where each season could be a different John and Jane story.

[01:19:27] If they brought one, do you want it?

[01:19:29] Do you feel like this is enough?

[01:19:31] You feel like there's a good ending?

[01:19:33] Do you want to see it come back?

[01:19:34] Where do you stand on that?

[01:19:35] I would like to see it come back maybe for three seasons total so that we've got a nice

[01:19:42] beginning, middle, and end.

[01:19:44] Yeah.

[01:19:44] And I really think I would like a plotting the trajectory of relationship from that young love,

[01:19:53] no kids, kind of you're early, you've got your jobs, you're in the city, whatever you're doing.

[01:20:01] And then at some point, what I would love season two to be is your middle ages, right?

[01:20:06] You're settled down, everything's sort of automatic.

[01:20:10] Maybe they do have one kid, right?

[01:20:13] Or whatever they negotiate out.

[01:20:14] Right, right.

[01:20:15] And so much of your life is just in getting the kid out the door and getting them home

[01:20:20] and fed and bathed and making sure that the mortgage is paid and all that kind of stuff.

[01:20:26] And then examining that and then looking then at a third season being the golden years of life

[01:20:35] where the kids are gone and you're in sort of quasi retirement and you get to have some fun

[01:20:43] in some ways or you're just looking at life in a different way.

[01:20:47] I think that would be a really great model to stick with because for me, if it's not

[01:20:52] Myerskin and Don Glover, what's the show?

[01:20:56] I get White Lotus as an anthology and we've covered the season two and we're going to

[01:21:02] cover season three when it comes back.

[01:21:06] And that's fine for that.

[01:21:09] But for this show, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, it's Glover and Erskine for me.

[01:21:14] And if they're not there, then I would have a...

[01:21:18] You'd have to do some work to get me to watch it.

[01:21:20] Yeah.

[01:21:21] I can feel you.

[01:21:22] I can feel you.

[01:21:23] I think if...

[01:21:25] Like one, me too.

[01:21:26] I would love to see Donald and Maya come back.

[01:21:29] Yeah.

[01:21:30] I, to know what happened to them, to...

[01:21:34] I think they would have to be on the run.

[01:21:36] They fell three times.

[01:21:37] Interesting.

[01:21:39] They would have to-

[01:21:39] Oh, that's a good point.

[01:21:40] I forgot about that.

[01:21:41] Yeah, they fell three times.

[01:21:41] And they killed top tier high risk John and Jane.

[01:21:47] So it could be about them.

[01:21:49] I can see like a season.

[01:21:50] I like your whole idea of three seasons.

[01:21:52] I could see season two being on the run and a season three of them trying to get to the

[01:21:59] organization.

[01:22:00] Okay.

[01:22:01] All right.

[01:22:01] Take it apart or get to the center of the maze.

[01:22:04] Finding out who Haya is and whatnot.

[01:22:05] Right, right.

[01:22:06] I think one of the things that would be complicated is there's no way the organization

[01:22:12] is not going to take out John's mom.

[01:22:16] Oh, I don't like that.

[01:22:17] In order to draw him out.

[01:22:18] They took out the cat, so they got to take out the mom.

[01:22:20] There's no way they're going...

[01:22:22] If he is on the run, knowing how connected he is to his mom, there's no way they're not

[01:22:27] using his mom to bring him back in some way.

[01:22:31] So they'd have to deal with that storyline.

[01:22:32] So that would be an interesting show too.

[01:22:34] They just pick up almost immediately right after the ending of this one rather than say

[01:22:38] years ahead.

[01:22:40] Or it could be some time ahead and it's kind of a mystery.

[01:22:45] It could be a mystery as to what's happened to the mother.

[01:22:48] I could see them having a kid.

[01:22:50] We could see them off the grid somewhere.

[01:22:53] So many different directions, couldn't they?

[01:22:55] Right, right.

[01:22:56] We really do have it wide open.

[01:22:57] Just knowing how Glover and Fransiska Sloan are, I think anything that we conceive,

[01:23:04] they're not going to do.

[01:23:06] Exactly.

[01:23:07] Like anything we can predict, they would probably know that people are going to predict

[01:23:11] that.

[01:23:12] And they would go off in some other kind of direction.

[01:23:15] They're just those type of creators.

[01:23:17] If they get it.

[01:23:18] And that's what I want from a show like this is to be surprised and delighted.

[01:23:21] And I was surprised and delighted at every episode and every twist and everywhere that

[01:23:26] this thing went, I could have never predicted it.

[01:23:28] And that's what was so enjoyable because every episode I was sitting down, I'm going to go,

[01:23:34] okay, what fresh craziness have they cooked up for us in this episode?

[01:23:39] And when Ron Perlman turns out to be their baby, I was like, I cannot believe what I'm

[01:23:44] watching here.

[01:23:44] This is fantastic.

[01:23:45] Or when they go to the therapist, all of it is beyond imagination.

[01:23:51] Yeah.

[01:23:52] I can see the Ron Perlman character being high up in the high, high organization.

[01:23:56] Oh, interesting.

[01:23:57] Okay.

[01:23:57] You know, because they said he's an important asset.

[01:24:00] Yeah.

[01:24:00] Like he talked about the horrible things he's done in his life.

[01:24:03] Yeah.

[01:24:04] I can see him coming back for that.

[01:24:06] I could see, I would love to learn a little bit more.

[01:24:09] I could see season two being about, because Michaela Cole is such an amazing actor.

[01:24:19] Did you destroy me?

[01:24:22] I will destroy you.

[01:24:23] I will destroy you.

[01:24:25] Ever since that came out, people have just talked about how amazing, how captivating she

[01:24:30] is in terms of how she captures the screen.

[01:24:33] I could see season two being about her, how she came up, how she grew up.

[01:24:39] Interesting.

[01:24:39] That could be fun.

[01:24:40] Maybe she came from the streets of London, because I think she's a British actor.

[01:24:43] Well, that would be fun too.

[01:24:44] Yeah.

[01:24:44] We could pivot away from Glover and Erskine and be with somebody else until their paths

[01:24:50] cross and then pick up again.

[01:24:52] Totally.

[01:24:53] That would be great.

[01:24:53] I can see that.

[01:24:54] I think that would be interesting.

[01:24:55] It could be interesting seeing how John and Jane 2, how they got back together.

[01:25:02] I think there are certain people and characters they introduced in this one that it would

[01:25:06] be interesting to see.

[01:25:09] If I were to build a whole season on anyone, it would be the Michaela Cole character.

[01:25:13] In terms of how she got trained.

[01:25:15] A spin-off?

[01:25:15] A spin-off.

[01:25:16] I could totally see how she got trained or whatever.

[01:25:18] Another IP franchise, right?

[01:25:19] Yeah, there you go.

[01:25:21] But I do hope it comes back in some form because I think I'd be disappointed if Maya

[01:25:30] and Donald didn't come back because that chemistry was so palpable.

[01:25:34] But I would trust that if Donald is involved and they came back, it's going to be something

[01:25:40] that is going to be worth the watch.

[01:25:43] His sensibilities and the crew of writers that they have around them have a particular

[01:25:48] sensibility that you can just trust that it's going to be good.

[01:25:50] Right.

[01:25:51] And I could see Phoebe Walbridge having a guest star appearance.

[01:25:54] Okay, that'd be fun.

[01:25:55] That'd be a nice thing to do.

[01:25:56] Yeah.

[01:25:56] Rather than if she wasn't a co-creator.

[01:25:58] So those are my thoughts.

[01:26:00] Awesome.

[01:26:00] Fingers crossed.

[01:26:02] Well, really enjoyable season of television.

[01:26:04] It was.

[01:26:05] I am looking forward to seeing what they come up with next.

[01:26:11] Me too.

[01:26:12] Cool.

[01:26:12] All right.

[01:26:12] Well, let's wrap it up here.

[01:26:15] Just really quick.

[01:26:16] If you are listening to this and you think, wow, this is Warhounds, a lot of fun stuff,

[01:26:21] and you are interested in participating, you're just welcome to listen on the public feeds.

[01:26:26] We have the Discord if you want to jump on.

[01:26:28] Again, we've got a good moderator team on there and channels for all the different projects that

[01:26:32] we're doing.

[01:26:33] And if you feel like you want to take a step a little bit further, then we have our Patreon

[01:26:37] or Super Chat.

[01:26:38] There's links in the show notes for those.

[01:26:40] And just know that this is a big work of passion that we're doing.

[01:26:45] So this isn't a commercial venture for us in that regard.

[01:26:48] It's about community.

[01:26:50] And so if you want to support the community at large, we have a lot of different co-hosts

[01:26:54] and obviously all the software and the things that we have to...

[01:26:57] All the tools that we have to have to produce a podcast.

[01:27:00] That's where all your support goes.

[01:27:03] Really quick, we do have a couple of other podcasts that we sponsor.

[01:27:06] We've got Wolveshift Dust.

[01:27:07] Alicia has had a rough start to the year, but she'll be back soon, hopefully with some Dune

[01:27:13] coverage before long.

[01:27:14] I know she's got plans there.

[01:27:16] And a few other things.

[01:27:18] We've got Properly Howard Movie Review and Anthony and Steve are on a little bit of a

[01:27:23] break, but they'll be back.

[01:27:24] And then speaking of severance, we're going to be covering season two with them.

[01:27:27] The four of us are going to do week to week coverage.

[01:27:29] We're just waiting.

[01:27:30] And we've just launched a new podcast, Rings and Rituals with Marilyn R. Pequila, who's

[01:27:37] our favorite Tolkien scholar.

[01:27:38] And then her colleague, Dr. Sarah Brown from Syngham University.

[01:27:42] They're going to be looking at season one of Rings of Power, looking at all the rituals

[01:27:47] that we see take place on screen.

[01:27:50] They're going to be examining those and exploring where those come from in the legendarium.

[01:27:56] But they're also going to use that as a way to look at ritual in our own daily lives and

[01:28:01] the kinds of things that we do to create ritual and what ritual gives us as human beings and

[01:28:08] the sort of mythology making storytelling creatures that we are.

[01:28:12] So that first episode should have already been out by the time that this podcast will

[01:28:17] be published.

[01:28:18] But again, there's a link in the show notes below.

[01:28:21] For the Lorehounds proper, we just wrapped up True Detective.

[01:28:26] We're just going to be starting with Shogun.

[01:28:29] We've got our next chapters in the Earthsea, Ursula K. Le Guin series of books.

[01:28:34] We're reading Dragonfly and the first chapter of The Other Wind.

[01:28:37] We're continuing with Silmarillion stories.

[01:28:40] We're continuing with our Star Wars Film Festival.

[01:28:43] Masters of the Air.

[01:28:44] We're going to put an end cap podcast once the season is over.

[01:28:49] Have you been watching that at all, Ron?

[01:28:51] I have not.

[01:28:52] Okay.

[01:28:52] I have no interest in watching.

[01:28:53] Okay, good.

[01:28:54] Fair enough.

[01:28:56] It's mixed.

[01:28:56] It's mixed.

[01:28:57] It's interesting.

[01:28:58] But yeah, and then we've got dates for The Acolyte and The Boys.

[01:29:03] That's going to be coming out.

[01:29:04] It's going to be a hot summer.

[01:29:05] And I'm just waiting for when House of Dragon is going to be released because it's probably,

[01:29:08] if it's all going to be in June, we're going to have a hell of a time.

[01:29:11] Is the next season of Boys this summer?

[01:29:13] Yep.

[01:29:14] They've released the date already.

[01:29:16] I got to look it up here on the show tracker, but it's in June along with The Bear as well.

[01:29:22] So The Acolyte starts June 5th.

[01:29:26] The Boys starts June 13th and The Bear starts sometime around June 20th.

[01:29:32] We don't have an actual date for The Bear, but they have always released it at the end of June.

[01:29:37] And if Hot D comes out, we're going to be a 4X coverage.

[01:29:42] It's going to be crazy.

[01:29:43] They're going to be fighting for the top of my list after Mr. and Mrs. Smith.

[01:29:47] Yes, it's going to be a big year.

[01:29:50] Okay, so final shout outs to our supporters, to our Discord server boosters, Opus the Machine,

[01:29:57] Gnarls, and Aaron K. and Tiller the Thriller.

[01:30:00] Oh, also, who else?

[01:30:01] Somebody who just boosted us today.

[01:30:05] Who was that?

[01:30:05] I think that was, oh yeah, Dork of the Ninjas.

[01:30:08] Thanks for all of your guys' support for that.

[01:30:11] For our Loremasters, our top tier subscribers are Samartian, Mark H., Michael G., Michelle E.,

[01:30:18] David W., Brian P., Nick W., S.C., Peter O.H., Bettina W., Adam S., Nancy M., Dove71,

[01:30:26] Brian8063, Frederick H., Sarah L., Gareth C., Eric F., Matthew M., Sarah M., DJ Miwa,

[01:30:33] Ondra B., Kwong U., DeadeyeJediBob, Nathan T., Alex V., Aaron T., Subzero, Aaron K.,

[01:30:41] DallyV21, Gnarls, and always last but never least, Adrian.

[01:30:47] Thank you all so very much for your support as Loremasters, our top tier subscription.

[01:30:53] Ron, that about wraps it up.

[01:30:55] Thanks very much.

[01:30:55] Where can people find you if they want to track you down on the interwebs?

[01:30:59] Yeah, you can go to Blerd, Ronner, I like Blade Runner, but Blerd, B-L-E-R-D,

[01:31:05] Ronner, R-O-N-N-E-R.com, and that takes you to all the different things, Dengers and Durex,

[01:31:11] my podcast, my social medias, and everything else.

[01:31:15] And we don't have any specific plans for you to be back on the Lorehounds, but I have no doubt

[01:31:23] that we're going to find some crossover somewhere to have you back on.

[01:31:27] If you've got any ideas, any shows that you want to come at us, you've got an open invitation on

[01:31:32] the microphones over here. Anytime.

[01:31:34] Right. Anytime you throw up a bat signal, I'll be looking out for it. Come on by.

[01:31:38] Very good. All right. Thanks again. We'll talk to everyone later.

[01:31:43] Thanks, everybody.

[01:31:45] The Lorehounds Podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds.

[01:31:48] You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com contact.

[01:31:54] Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds Podcasts at patreon.com slash the lorehounds.

[01:31:59] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any

[01:32:03] employers or other entities. Thanks for listening.

[01:32:07] A new Star Wars journey begins in the place all good journeys begin at well, the beginning.

[01:32:14] This Star Wars day, I'm excited to introduce the new Star Wars canon timeline podcast,

[01:32:19] where we will piece together the complete story of that galaxy far, far away in timeline order

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[01:32:30] This is a podcast for both Star Wars super fans and complete newbies.

[01:32:34] Listen to the short intro episode now to hear how it works and what to expect over the coming weeks

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