Oscars Coverage - Part 1 - The Headliners

[00:00:00] This summer, we enter a new era of Star Wars. You mean the dawn of the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast? Yeah, yeah sure, that too. But I was obviously talking about the Acolyte. We've got to cover that on the Lorehounds.

[00:00:18] Oh, but the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast is exactly at that point in the timeline, the end of the High Republic 100 years before the prequel trilogy. We've got to cover it there. Why not both? Okay, deal. It's the first live action Star War outside the Skywalker saga.

[00:00:37] Nobody can miss this. Listeners, kick off your Hot Lore Summer weekends with scene-by-scene breakdowns of the Acolyte found in both the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast and the Lorehounds' Mother Feed. And the Lorehounds' Star Wars Feed.

[00:00:52] Wherever you like to listen a couple of days after each new episode is released. Welcome to the Lorehounds Oscar Prep Series. I'm your host, David. And I'm Alicia, the watcher of all the movies. It's honestly gone too far. Please send help. Blink three times if you...

[00:01:36] Today we're going to kick off our Oscar Prep Series with part one, The Headliners. Check out our short teaser for an overview of what to expect from this series. But basically today we're getting started with what are generally considered to be the

[00:01:49] biggest awards, starting with the 10 best picture nominees, one at a time, and then a brief look at the acting, directing, and writing categories. But it's not just us you'll be hearing from. We've called in voices from the Lorehounds community and beyond to talk about the films

[00:02:03] and categories they're most passionate about. So you can expect some new people to pop up with their thoughts throughout our coverage. And we want to hear your thoughts as well. How are you feeling about this award season? What you've heard on this podcast?

[00:02:17] Any other films from this year you think should be getting more attention? Email us all of your feedback. First head over to thelorehounds.com and use the contact form or the voicemail feature there. We also have a fun active Discord community and we'd love for you to join.

[00:02:31] Links in the show notes. The email you can use is lorehounds at thelorehounds.com. Also for ad-free versions of this and all of our podcasts, check us out at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds. I'll share more about the Patreon as well as our upcoming programming schedule at the

[00:02:49] end of the podcast. Also we'd be forever grateful if you could help us get more ears tuned into this special series. Please pass this episode along to anyone else you think would appreciate some Oscar intel or just leave a five-star rating and review wherever you're listening.

[00:03:03] It really helps more people find us. Elisha, we're coming to the moment of all of your efforts and work. Thanks so much for putting all this together. I'm looking at our outline. It's a lot going on. This is the biggest episode of the series for sure.

[00:03:21] Do you have a total count? You're not just watching Oscars. You're doing BAFTAs and a bunch of other stuff. What's your movie count up to now? I mean, just for the award season alone, it's over 150, but I've been watching them throughout the year.

[00:03:36] I'd already watched 83% of the Oscar nominees by the time they were nominated, so it was easy to finish that off. I love film. I love these looks into other people's minds, into other places, into other cultures.

[00:03:55] This is an exciting year for that, for having a wider variety of windows to look through. Sure. I was talking to my spouse about this podcast and what we were doing, and I mentioned to her this Death Racer thing. She's like, why do they call them Death Racers?

[00:04:11] I'm like, well, I didn't really know. Because you watch all of the films or you die trying. Right, I got it. That's wild. How are the Death Racers doing out there? Is everybody having a good time? Yeah.

[00:04:28] I mean, the most serious amongst us have long since done all the Oscars, so we've moved on to the other categories, the short list for the Oscar nominees, the long list for the BAFTAs, things like that.

[00:04:40] We have our own Academy of Death Racers deathies ceremony the night before the Oscars, so we have to watch those nominees as well, which is why I've been watching all of the Fast and the Furious movies. I like them more than I expected, actually.

[00:04:55] You go in for the family drama stuff? Yeah. I mean, I love a good found family story. All right. Yeah, it is all about that too. It's all about that. Awesome. All right, well, do you want to set us up for our Best Picture 10 and how we're going

[00:05:10] to work this and what folks can expect from the podcast? Yeah. So this is not going to be any deep movie dives. This is going to be spoiler-free previews and reviews. This episode, we're going to talk through the best motion picture of the year.

[00:05:27] So David, which of these have you seen of the nominated 10? You've seen a good number. Yeah. Where's that? What's that website I signed up for? Oh, yeah. It's OscarsDeathRace.com, so listeners at home might find that useful as well.

[00:05:44] You can get an overview of all the nominees, check off the ones you've seen, see them by category. And if you want to get a little more deep into the statistics, then go to DeathRaceTracking.com is the other one. Got it. Yeah, so I'm looking at my...

[00:05:59] I signed up for an account so I could kind of help myself keep track. And at the time of watching this, I've seen four of the 10. And I'm intending to see Oppenheimer. I've just gotten delayed on watching that.

[00:06:15] I was debating whether I wanted to sign up for yet another streaming service or not, which is... I was on video on demand too. Yeah, it's true. And then I was debating that.

[00:06:25] I was like, well, the video on demand price is the same as the streamer month price. But then I was using our... For Patreon subscribers, we have a big show tracker thing that I put together. It's kind of a giant database.

[00:06:39] And so I was using that to look at by platform what's coming up on that platform. And there's nothing else on that platform. Then I was like, oh, I don't really want to sign up again and then churn it out.

[00:06:52] So then I was debating the whole, do I pay for it? They got to start bundling these things better. I mean, actually the streamer Peacock is in a bundle with Paramount Global and Showtime and a British streamer called Sky here. And it's called Sky Showtime.

[00:07:05] And I'm waiting for that to hit the US, but you guys still have a separate Hulu. And a Hulu seems to be... Anyway, let's not get into the whole streaming thing. So the ones that I have...

[00:07:17] I've seen American Fiction, Killers, Maestro, and Barbie, and I'll be watching Oppenheimer before long. And so Past Lives, Zone of Interest, Poor Things, Holdovers, and Anatomy are all ones that I'm just... I'm not even sure what they are when they came out to be honest.

[00:07:34] Well you have come to the right place. Very cool. All right. So yeah, I mean, from someone who has been tracking this season more or less, I have to say that the other categories contain surprises when the nominations came out, but the best

[00:07:49] pictures pretty much fell in line with expectations going into the announcements. So there's four films dominating overall. We're going to be discussing each of the films in descending order of how many nominations they got. Okay, that's a good way to...

[00:08:05] If you want to watch the most nominated films, those are the ones we'll be talking about first. So the four films that are dominating are Oppenheimer, Poor Things, Killers of the Flower Moon, and Barbie.

[00:08:17] So we're going to start with those four, and then we're going to take a break. We'll come back with the other six best pictures and then take a second break. And after that, we'll look quickly at the other headliner awards, acting, directing, and writing. Great.

[00:08:30] And then we've got a number of voicemails. Yeah, worked throughout as we talk about the different things. There are people who had passionate opinions. Yeah. So it's kind of a fun little project because we got to bring in some, as we said in the

[00:08:41] intro, some more community voices. So we'll set those up as we go. Okay, cool. Well, let's... Should we get started? Yeah, great. So we're going to start with Oppenheimer because that is the most nominated film of the year. Probably the one that's going to take the big prize.

[00:08:56] It's probably going to do very well Oscar night. And so for the best picture prizes, the producers are the ones who get the actual Oscar. So I'll be listing the producers for each film. And for this film, it's Emma Thomas, Charles Roven, and Christopher Nolan.

[00:09:12] And the plot is that J. Robert Oppenheimer leads the team that develops the atomic bomb during World War II. You guys probably already know that. There was some, you probably heard, there was some Japanese controversy surrounding this.

[00:09:26] The fact that that viewpoint isn't represented, but that does seem to have died down and they finally set a release date in Japan of March 29th. So almost a year after release in most places. Interesting. Interesting. So the... Wow. Okay. So it's not gone wide in Japan? No.

[00:09:44] It's not been released in theaters, not until March 29th. Okay. So after the Oscars. Yeah. I mean, I understand that, but I also understand that this is, you're seeing this, it's very much from the perspective of two characters who are Americans and kind of part of the

[00:09:59] point is that to them, Japan was this distant, this, you know, they didn't have as much empathy because they didn't connect with it, with the fact that there was people just like them there. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So it's just the utilization. Okay. Right.

[00:10:19] Well, but we do see some aftermath in terms of grappling. Right, right, right. But yeah, so this one's been nominated for 13 different categories. Today we're going to talk about best picture, best actor, Cillian Murphy, best supporting actress, Emily Blunt, best supporting actor, Robert Downey Jr., best director, Christopher

[00:10:36] Nolan and best adapted screenplay. And then in part three of this series, we'll dive into score, costume design, makeup and hair styling, production design, sound, film editing and cinematography. So yeah, we'll talk about each of these a bit more as we get to those categories. Wow.

[00:10:59] So it's a real two to four here. Yeah. This is the knockout film of the year. Yeah. Nobody expected it to do as well as it did in the box office. We got $955 million worldwide on a $100 million budget. Lots of, you know, stayed in IMAX for ages.

[00:11:17] It really defied expectations for like a long talky movie about physics with, you know, granted it has a big explosion and some naked people. But we've got to also give the Barbenheimer marketing phenomenon credit here too, I think. Yeah, that's interesting.

[00:11:33] I wonder how well this would have done without the twinning of Barbenheimer. It's still Christopher Nolan, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's going to draw no matter what. And what I thought was interesting was long after the summer boom, it was still active

[00:11:47] in theaters and people were still going to see it. So it had a really long tail for quite a while. So that says something about a film, right? Yeah, absolutely. Especially in this day and age where we want, we'll just drop it on streaming and I'll just

[00:12:03] do it there. The fact that people were still getting out to the theaters and physically seeing it on the big screen, that's something. That's really something. Yeah. I mean, I think that has a lot to do with also, it was a movie that people were told

[00:12:18] you have to see this in a theater. So it's actually, its biggest snub in the nominations is it didn't get VFX. But I, he, so Christopher Nolan decided instead of doing a computer graphic, you know, mushroom

[00:12:31] clouds, what we think of with a nuclear explosion to do a practical explosion. And I have to say from my perspective, I was like, that's just the man who wants to blow things up in the desert. But it didn't look like a nuclear explosion to me.

[00:12:47] So I would have preferred the CGI personally, but don't come after me if you feel differently I respect your opinion. Right. I mean, you have such a, there's so much cultural history around the mushroom cloud shape and

[00:13:03] you know, that is, I mean, yeah, I don't want to, I don't know the physics of them. It's always going to, it might be a little bit different. There's a lot of variations in that. So, but whatever. Yeah. I'm not here to talk about mushroom clouds per se.

[00:13:17] Yeah. Well, of course it has like a phenomenal cast. And at first I was kind of distracted by how many celebrities are in one movie, but then I was really grateful because there's so many characters and it helps you keep them straight.

[00:13:31] But there's a lot of people who obviously really love this film. And we asked one of them, Danny, to send his thoughts in. Great. So he made a voicemail for us. Okay. Let's play that now.

[00:13:43] Hey guys, I just want to start by thanking Alicia for introducing me to the Oscar death race. My movie watching has fallen off a lot in recent years and it really inspired me to watch some things I otherwise wouldn't have.

[00:13:57] I've gone from 4% watched at the time of the nominations to about 60% right now. A quick disclaimer, I haven't watched Poor Things or Zone of Interest yet, but I'm definitely going with Oppenheimer for best picture. Just slightly ahead of past lives in American fiction.

[00:14:16] I'm a Christopher Nolan fan and this is certainly a Christopher Nolan movie through and through. So I love everything that comes with that as far as production quality. It's got great visuals, sound, all of that. It's what we would expect at this point from Christopher Nolan.

[00:14:33] I tend to gravitate to fantasy, sci-fi genre stuff over real world stories more often when it comes to entertainment. So I was pleasantly surprised that it really gave me almost more Inception vibes than it did, you know, say Dunkirk vibes.

[00:14:50] Maybe not the best example because Dunkirk's a great movie, but just sticking with Nolan. I really love the parts where it showed what people are thinking by the onscreen visuals that only they saw and like the explosions and all the dead people that he saw throughout

[00:15:06] the movie and his wife imagining him having sex with the other woman. It really could have used more of that stuff in my opinion, but that was a really standout part. Not being an American, I didn't really realize, or maybe I just didn't think about how their

[00:15:23] obsession with communism was such a big thing before and during World War II. So that was really interesting to me. It was infuriating that it was such a big deal to them while the world was potentially about to be lost to fascism. All of the performances were great.

[00:15:39] I think Gillian Murphy's an absolute lock for best actor, even though I think it's a pretty solid year for the category. All five of them were really quite good this year. Robert Downey Jr., Emily Blunt, Florence Pugh, all of them were excellent.

[00:15:54] I would have maybe given a supporting actress nod to Florence Pugh over Emily Blunt, honestly, but both were really good. As an aside, I think I have Jodie Foster winning that category. Just an excellent performance in Nyad, a movie I didn't even like.

[00:16:09] I started watching this movie super late at night. I thought I'd just watch half of it and pick it up the next day because it's really long, but I was hooked right from the start. Glued to the screen, never felt tired, never felt like pressing stop.

[00:16:24] Just thoroughly enjoyed it. And yeah, that's my pick. Thanks. So yeah, did you, anything you picked up in there, David, you found interesting? Yeah. I think one of the things that kept me out of the theater was the runtime that, you know,

[00:16:39] as a part of a family to take that chunk of time, because it's not just the time that you're sitting in the theater, but getting to the theater, coming back, all of that, that I just couldn't devote that much time.

[00:16:55] And I was like, okay, well let me watch it at home. Also just, you know, you want to stretch, you want to not be sort of physically challenged. And so hearing that Danny is saying that he watched it right through without a problem,

[00:17:09] that says something for a movie with that kind of runtime. And that it's not, there's a, what I'm also picking up is the human drama that's embedded in this overall story. So it's not just a nerdy engineering movie, but there's some, it sounds like some personal

[00:17:27] relationship stuff going on. There's one in particular that's at the, well, I mean, yeah, there's personal relationships for sure with his wife and lover, but there's, and then there's another relationship that's more of the center of the movie with Robert Downey Jr.'s character. Interesting. Okay.

[00:17:45] And I think I could see that having that, like you were saying that having that many stars in it, I don't know, is leavens the right word or keeps it, I don't want to use the dry pie. It was just like a lot of Leo pointing meme. Yeah.

[00:18:00] Sure. Exactly. And I think it's a, it's a dry pie, right? And you're like, Oh God. I found it to be dry pie. It's my least favorite of the best picture. But that's why I'm glad we got people who love it speaking up. For sure. For sure. Yeah.

[00:18:15] No, I'm definitely looking forward to watching it and I just have to get over myself about paying the video and time. Yeah. Well, yeah. So it is, it's on video on demand right now and I think it releases on Peacock in March 21st.

[00:18:29] So it's not for the Oscars and presumably thus on Sky Showtime or similar, you know, around the world. But yeah, so I found it more actually more like Dunkirk personally. So I disagree with Danny on that, but I completely agree with Danny on the, that the onscreen

[00:18:48] visuals he described, they were by far my favorite part of the movie and I wish that the movie had more of that. Someone made a joke that last year there was a nominated film called Women Talking and someone joked that this film was Men Talking. Well.

[00:19:01] You know, I'm actually remiss because I haven't seen Dunkirk. I think I tried to watch it on an airplane and that just, you know, no, you just can't do that. That's not a way to watch it.

[00:19:16] But I do like, I enjoyed Tenant even though the plot was weird. It's because the vibes, it's the Nolan vibes. It's the same in Interstellar. It's the same in Inception. I haven't gone in for his superhero stuff, Dark Knight and Man of Steel.

[00:19:33] Oh, that's, I mean, Dark Knight is, it's really one of the best superhero movies ever created. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just one of my favorites. That and that and Inception, I think. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. I really enjoy Inception a lot.

[00:19:48] If I catch it on a live TV stream or something like that, I'll definitely pause it and watch it for a little bit. But Nolan has a way of hitting that vibe, like bringing you into this kind of embrace where you just have feels.

[00:20:03] And they're sometimes even indeterminate feels. You're just, I just note that I'm emoting. There's just emotion coming out of me and they're not, it's not anger or sad. It's not anything specific. It's just, I'm in some sort of strange hallucinogenic state. Yeah. Hallucinogenic. Hallucination.

[00:20:24] Although this has those scenes that felt like hallucinations, the ones that Danny were talking about, those are the ones I'm like, yes, more of that. That's the Nolan that I love. Right. So that's what I hoped for more of. Pretty consequential director, Nolan is. Yeah.

[00:20:39] I have a fun fact about him I just recently learned. He's a huge fan of the Fast and the Furious series. There's a funny interview with Stephen Colbert online where he's just so incredulous Colbert hasn't watched it. Okay. Apparently his favorite is Tokyo Drift.

[00:21:00] But yeah, so Danny, thank you for sending that in. I'm so glad to hear more people are getting into the death race. So yeah, the Oppenheimer clearly considered a front runner by a long shot. It only missed three of the categories it's eligible for, including VFX. Strong acting.

[00:21:18] I do have to disagree with Danny on the Emily Blunt factor because she was the one while I was watching the film in the theater, I was thinking like she will and should get nominated for this.

[00:21:28] But yeah, it's definitely a tough category we'll talk more about later in the episode. I'm a big Emily Blunt stan so- Yeah, I like her too. But she also, she just knocked it out of the park. Like reacting to that scene that Danny was describing. Okay, cool. Awesome.

[00:21:43] All right, well what's next? Poor Things? All right, so Poor Things is the number two most nominated film of the year and it is my film of the year. So I feel like there are kind of two types of people, the Oppenheimer crowd and the Poor Things crowd.

[00:21:55] And I'm definitely the Poor Things crowd, which is like the, it's a bit weirder, you know. So the producers on this one are Ed Gini, Andrew Lo, Jorgo Slanthimos who's the director and Emma Stone, the lead.

[00:22:09] And the plot is a scientist with a face like Frankenstein's monster places a baby's brain in her deceased mother's body. And the film follows that woman's development into an independent person in a technicolor steampunk world. Sounds wild. It's wild. It's wild. So it was nominated for 11 categories.

[00:22:26] Today we're going to talk about Best Picture, Best Actress for Emma Stone, Best Supporting Actor for Mark Ruffalo, Best Director for Jorgo Slanthimos and Best Adapted Screenplay. And in part three we'll get into a score, costume design, makeup and hair styling, production design, film editing and cinematography.

[00:22:44] And actually I'm going to be talking through in part three some of those things with Abby. Okay. Very cool. So David, you had an interesting reaction. You had heard negative things about the film? Yeah.

[00:22:58] According to some US based reviewers, they were, I think there was a kind of a confused reaction state to the movie. People didn't know how to place it or situate it to understand it. I think this must be...

[00:23:14] And so my initial response was, I'm not going to carve out time to get into the theater and see it. I mean, who knows, maybe I'll pick it up on video on demand or maybe I won't. I think I will now.

[00:23:29] And I think for me, the way I'm relating to the film now is that it's not a Hollywood entertainment film, but it's some kind of morality play. I don't want to even say morality play, it's not the right word, but it's a film that's

[00:23:46] asking some questions or doing a setup and then causing you to think about stuff that we as American audiences maybe largely aren't. We want her fast and furious. We don't want like, oh, the morality of a sexually active individual or all of these kinds of things.

[00:24:04] Or prostitution, yeah. Yeah. And so I don't think it fits into a simple cookie cutter frame and that's the way that it was initially presented to me as I was listening to other reviewers talking about it. And so I think now it's like, oh, interesting.

[00:24:19] Okay, so this is a thought provoking film, not an entertainment based film. Even though it's entertaining and visually, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. I mean, so anyone who's familiar with Lanthimos, he's a darling of weird European cinema.

[00:24:36] So he has the popular English language films, The Lobster and The Favourite, and also The Killing of Sacred Deer. I won't list his entire filmography, but I think the most relevant film for this is the

[00:24:50] one that first got him nominated for an Oscar, was nominated for an international film. It's in Greek. It's called Dogtooth and it's his first feature film. And you can see such an evolution between this and Poor Things.

[00:25:09] Basically his budget is like 20 times larger at least, but it's still asking the same questions. But it's also, this movie made me go and dig up the book. And the book is such a great adaptation of the book because it's taking not only the

[00:25:29] story but shifting the perspective. So it gives it a slightly more feminist perspective, which is remarkable from a male director. But also that it's taking the guy who wrote the book, Alistair Gray, he's also a visual artist.

[00:25:44] And so it interprets some of his visual art through the cinematography. It's just, mwah! Great. Cool, cool. Yeah, that's, I think that's a big draw is to see this visual as well. Which is a shame that I won't be able to see it on a big screen.

[00:25:58] But to dive into this very rich world, it sounds pretty luscious. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So as I said, it's my favorite of the year along with Past Lives. Right. If anyone else wants to see it, you can find it on Video On Demand starting February 27th.

[00:26:17] It's a Searchlight film, so it should eventually end up on Hulu or Disney+. Okay, very cool. All right, what's next? The big one. Another big one, I should say. This is a big year in film. It is a big year in film. Yeah, yeah.

[00:26:31] So we have Killers of the Flower Moon is the third most nominated film produced by, or at least production credits go to Dan Friedkin, Bradley Thomas, Martin Scorsese and Daniel Lupe. And the plot is white men have come to Osage County in Oklahoma, sniffing after oil money,

[00:26:48] intermarrying with Osage people, many of whom are turning up dead. And this is based on a book that was telling the tale of a real story that also drove the FBI to be set up basically. And so this was nominated for 10 different nominations.

[00:27:06] I do rattle off what the nominations are for in an interview you're about to hear in a second. So we'll get into them more, of course, as we work through the categories. But David, you watched about half and stopped? Yeah, and then I finished it the other day.

[00:27:19] Oh, you did? Okay. I finally finished it. Yeah, and again, long movies. Lots of reasons for that. And obviously as a co-host of a podcast, a busy podcast, I have to balance... You're watching a lot of things, yeah. I'm watching television. Any of our family.

[00:27:38] I also have to... I'm a family, I have a family, so I've got to be present for that as well, as well as my day job sort of work. And so there's only so many hours in a day that I can watch.

[00:27:48] And I just can't stay up late anymore. It kills me the next day. So yeah, I broke it in half. I didn't love this film. I did not enjoy it. I thought as a historical piece, I thought as a piece of our cultural literacy, I think

[00:28:14] it's important because it's telling some stories, a little bit of the same kind of work that... Oh, what was the... Jonathan Major's television... Lovecraft Country. Lovecraft Country, thank you. Yeah, I was getting confused in my head with The Watchmen. But in both of those where we are being...

[00:28:42] Confronted with, yeah. Yeah, and in some cases, things that we didn't know. I didn't know any of this story. I was completely unaware of this really ugly period of time and had no idea that it had

[00:29:00] such a impact on the structures of our country in terms of the response, in terms of developing the FBI. Which to me, I thought that was going to be a bigger part. It seems very minor in some ways.

[00:29:18] I think it's important from that cultural literacy standpoint and understanding, uncovering history that has been obfuscated over the years intentionally, I think in a lot of cases. And so that's great, but the performances didn't work for me.

[00:29:37] Well, at least I should say the two main male lead performances didn't work great for me. Actually, I feel the same for you with the... And the movie, it didn't need for me, for me, didn't need to be three hours. This could have been two hours.

[00:29:55] It could have been, yeah, maybe two hours. It just felt a lot. There just felt to be a lot of stuff that was unnecessary and I never felt driven by the plot.

[00:30:07] And every time I thought the plot was about to pick up and start to move, it didn't. And then it kind of mired down into some other things. And I get and appreciate the fact of spending time and letting things breathe and getting

[00:30:22] to know characters or getting to know places. And sometimes you do that through time and being in a place, having the filmmaker bring us into a place and just to be there.

[00:30:33] But then that just went on and on and on and I didn't feel the purpose of it. And I was looking over Scorsese's filmography and there's a few that I like and then there's a few that I don't like.

[00:30:49] And so he's not a consequential director for me personally. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I'm actually with you. I'm not one of the huge Scorsese fans myself. There are some movies of his that are...

[00:31:05] I see a lot of his earlier movies are just absolutely iconic and I really appreciate them. There are some that I really love, like Shutter Island, which I know is apparently not one of his own favorite or Hugo is just so different for him.

[00:31:20] This is more a typical Scorsese film, which is definitely going to get a lot of fans and it definitely did. And yeah, it's based on one of the all time bestseller true crime books.

[00:31:31] And yeah, it's got a cast of like a who's who cast meets Native American immersion. So I understand why a lot of people... One person who did really love this, love the book, love the film even more is my own father Jim Brenner.

[00:31:44] So I'll let him tell you why this is meaningful to him in his own words. Okay, here we go. All right. So I am here today with a very special guest. I am here with my own father, Jim Brenner. Hi, Dad. How are you? Hi.

[00:32:02] So we're here to talk about Killers of the Flower Moon because you have a good amount of expertise to talk on it. Because first of all, you live in Oklahoma in Indian country and you know a lot about the history of this.

[00:32:15] So can you tell us briefly why is Oklahoma called Indian country? Why are all the tribes living there very briefly? Well Andrew Jackson decided to take over all of the Indian property in the United States and forced the tribes to move into Indian territory, including our Pottawatomie tribe,

[00:32:38] which came down from the north. Ours was a trail of death, but theirs was a trail of tears with the Choctaw, Chickasaw, Chickasaw, yeah, and Cherokee Creek and Seminole. Anyway, we were forced into giving up our lands and homes elsewhere and move.

[00:32:59] So I found Killers of the Flower Moon really interesting because the Osage were given totally worthless plot of land. They couldn't grow anything, they couldn't do anything with it, but then they discovered a well. Yeah, because isn't that why all the tribes were moved to Oklahoma?

[00:33:19] Was it because the land wasn't fertile? Well, yeah, partly. It was mostly they just kind of thought it was an out of the way place to put parkas. So they didn't have much interest in Oklahoma, but there are fertile areas of Oklahoma, especially in the east.

[00:33:42] But in fact, my grandfather who was Indian and who escaped from one of those children's prisons had a farm in Paul's Valley and that farm he parceled. Well, he let farmers come in and was able to productively farm that land for a long time.

[00:34:11] So anyway, that was down south here in Oklahoma. And then he found oil there, which ties right into the plot. No, my grandfather had an 80 acre parcel that was part of the Indian settlement and they did discover oil on that.

[00:34:32] So we had payments coming to us, to the family, the Weldon family for quite a long time. Your mother, my grandmother and family. Right. But it kind of petered out and we did not sell the last plot, but somehow we haven't seen any money from it.

[00:34:58] Yeah, I remember grandma driving me by the pumps and that they were just kind of like rusted and still. Yeah, yeah. And improperly capped, of course. All that sort of stuff. But now with lateral drilling and fracking, almost no use for any of the old oil wells themselves.

[00:35:21] And the only problem is that most of them still allow methane to escape from. Right, right. Yes. And you guys experienced an earthquake recently, right? Yeah, we did. Yeah, five something. I forget what it was.

[00:35:38] This epicenter was about over an hour's drive from us and yet it was enough that we felt it pretty strongly in the house. Not that it shook anything off the shelves or anything, but we did feel it. So we do have a fault line here.

[00:35:56] And Killers of the Far Moon, the book, I know you're a fan of the book. When did you first pick it up? I very shortly after it was published. I read it then and then I reread it, what, five years later, six years later?

[00:36:14] And was very impressed with it both times that I read it. But you know how they always say the book is so much better than the movie? I think the movie is so much better than the book. Okay, okay. And why is that?

[00:36:33] Well, the book includes so many murders and so many characters. Obviously when he wrote the book, he really did a huge amount of research. So it's kind of dense and almost difficult to go through.

[00:36:55] One comment that I thought was kind of interesting that was included in the book, but not in the movie, was one fellow mentioning to another fellow that his wife was one of the, what do they call them? Claim holders, deed holders?

[00:37:15] And so he told his buddy that you got to get yourself one of these because these women are wealthy. Anyway, the whole thing about the book that was so intense was how many women especially were murdered. I mean, it was just probably close to a thousand.

[00:37:44] And I thought that the movie didn't really get into that too much, but they did show that- Well, they showed the bodies piled up for sure. No, I always think of, Grandmom always used to say that they were treated differently after

[00:38:01] the oil well was discovered and they started getting the money in. But obviously not in the same way that we're seeing with the Osage in the movie. Why do you think this is different? You think it was just the ringleader effect? Well, it was the wealth.

[00:38:15] The wealth, the Osage happened to be out there in the middle of nowhere. And so as that wealth piled up and the Osage started buying Rolls Royces and that sort of stuff, that jealousy is like always the driver of bringing people in who want to get your money.

[00:38:41] And so that's what brought it in. So you preferred the film to the movie in the end, but the major complaint that people have who prefer it the other way around is that the movie misses out on the FBI stuff, that there's less of it.

[00:38:57] There's less of it. And near the end of the movie when they're showing that the FBI, you know, the 10 most wanted and I actually, you know, I'm old enough that I can recall when the FBI actually did that 10 most wanted on television. Right.

[00:39:16] No, I remember it from my childhood even. Yeah. They moved from radio to television, but there didn't seem to be as much... You almost needed a commentator over that last or almost last scene of the movie where

[00:39:34] they did that and they explained on the FBI thing how they had arrested some people and stuff. And I guess there was maybe less... Well, there was quite a bit less coverage of the FBI and the development of the FBI.

[00:39:50] How that really happened partly because of or mainly even because of the Osage and all of the killings that were going on. Yeah. And how do you feel about the representation of the Osage or just, you know, Native American culture in general in the film?

[00:40:12] I was so pleased that he actually, Scorsese actually went out of his way to bring in the Osage tribe. Yeah. Apparently this was after feedback. He redeveloped the script to bring that forward more. Well, yeah. But you know, to have a Native American win an Oscar. Yeah.

[00:40:31] She's the first, Lily Gladstone is the first female lead nominee as a Native American. Yeah. Yeah. I was pleased with that. I mean, it's really kind of... It's kind of a shame that so many movies don't bring in the Native Americans or the foreign

[00:40:56] speakers and trying to portray, you know, Middle Easterners with, you know, just by putting on makeup and that sort of thing. I was pleased that they actually had Native Americans in the movie. Right. And they used the language a lot. Part of the plot. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:15] How do you feel about... There are certain Native American actors, particularly, most famously, Deveree Jacobs, who have said about the film that it centers the Osage's victims and it's about the white violence perpetrated against them. Well, I think that more films should show the violence against people.

[00:41:37] And you know, it's portraying them as victims. And yet there are scenes in the movie that I really liked about how they were trying to figure out... How the tribe was trying to figure out how to deal with these guys, the murderers, you know. Right.

[00:42:00] And that they just didn't get any help from Oklahoma and they didn't get any help from national police until the FBI came in. Right. I mean, I have to say that I was wary before I watched it.

[00:42:13] But then once I did see it, I was much happier with the representation that they did differentiate, you know, what makes Osage different from other tribes. And you know, they did show a lot of that. I just do wish... But this goes for several movies.

[00:42:27] I wish that the Native American characters had been given more agency, that the female characters have been given more agency. But you know, tale as old as time. Yeah. And I understand it's a true story.

[00:42:39] I thought, though, that the movie, by distilling out the major characters and focusing on those major characters and focusing on... Kind of focusing on how the FBI was brought in and they kind of trickled in at first.

[00:42:57] I thought that the movie did a great job of portraying the Osage in a favorable light. Maybe they could have done better. In my estimation, they did a good job. It's definitely a step forward in representation. Yeah. So, it's nominated for 10 Oscars.

[00:43:19] Best Picture, Director, Actress, Supporting Actor for De Niro, Cinematography, Editing, Production Design, Costume Design, Original Score and Original Song. Will you be watching the Oscars on March 10th? I probably will. Any... Yeah, I would definitely favor them.

[00:43:39] And I hope that they get a few Oscars, especially, I think De Niro. Anyway, I just think that... I'm rooting for Ryan Gosling in that one. Yeah. Well, anyway, I just think that it deserves a few Oscars.

[00:43:56] I do think that Oppenheimer was a great movie and I saw that one twice as well. That deserves some recognition as well. Yeah. Nominated for 13 Oscars the most. So, it's a good chance it'll walk home with a lot of the biggest prizes. Yeah. Oppenheimer. Yeah.

[00:44:19] Anything else that you wanted to mention? Your Chess Slash Go Club? Well, yeah. I love to get more participants in the Chess Club. We go... In Shawnee, Oklahoma. In Shawnee, Oklahoma at the mall. Yeah, we have...

[00:44:39] I started that Chess Club in 2013 and it's gone from anywhere from me being sitting there alone reading a book to having three tables, four tables running at a time. So, it's kind of nice. Yeah. Anywhere people could find out information if they wanted to join?

[00:44:58] Well, we do have a Facebook page. Okay. And it's called? Shawnee Chess. Shawnee Chess. Okay. Well, thank you, Dad, for joining us. And yeah, thank you for giving us all that insight into Killers of the Flower Moon.

[00:45:13] You definitely help me appreciate it more and especially knowing more about the book. Well, thank you. So yeah, anyone in Shawnee, Oklahoma, you know what you need to do. So that was really interesting.

[00:45:27] And I really appreciate the fact that you have a personal connection to this and that your dad was willing to get on the mic with you, which is kind of a fun little thing anyway, just between family members. So I must have enjoyed that.

[00:45:41] I thought it was interesting that he enjoyed the movie more than the book. And I was kind of surprised by that. Well, he made a good point about the movie versus the book. A lot of the complaints about the movie is that it's like trauma porn.

[00:45:55] He's like, well, the book's even worse. Right. He's like, this is the lighter take. Yeah. I mean, for me, I have mixed feelings about the movie. I am on the side of, I don't like, as soon as it was announced Scorsese was doing this,

[00:46:13] I was like, I don't know. But once I watched, the representation was done much better than I had feared. So I'm definitely okay with the representation on that end. It was nice how much they use the language and the costume design.

[00:46:26] I think this is a great contender for that category. But the Native American characters did still feel mostly like props. And this has a lot to do with Scorsese not being great at romance, I think. And so I couldn't really buy into the central relationship.

[00:46:41] But also, I didn't find the way the central relationship was presented to be realistic. So that sort of took me out of it. But you know, the production design, the costume design, the score, all of that was exceptional. So yeah, it's in the middle for me.

[00:46:59] Visually, it's a very well shot. The movie, the color tones are great. The lighting is great. Yes, I agree. The production design was amazing. The vehicles, the costuming, all of that, super good. And I think you're right.

[00:47:16] I think maybe something that I was missing a little bit is that the Osage community seemed to be a two-dimensional backdrop. And it was really Leo and De Niro forward. And everybody else was sort of around them as device for them, as opposed to a lot of

[00:47:39] impact or getting to know other people in the family and in the community. But I do have to, you know, from my father's perspective, he's right. This is a huge step forward from what he grew up watching, what's been available for the longest time. Absolutely.

[00:47:58] And to see, you know, Osage community members not as... I don't think they were characters. I just think they were singular dimensions, right? We didn't get into a lot of deeper stuff.

[00:48:14] But the fact that we got to see people as they were presented at that time and not in an othering way. And I have to say it was nice to see just, you know, because sometimes it feels like

[00:48:27] the idea of what Native American tribes look like have blended together, especially because it's, you know, laziness on the one hand, but it's also the fact if you dump a bunch of tribes in Oklahoma, they're just going to start look more alike.

[00:48:38] You know, they're going to start wearing more of the same clothing, things like that. And the production design, the costuming really honored their unique tradition with using the military coats and things like that. Yeah. And then we see human cultures evolve and change.

[00:48:52] So we've just been watching True Detective Night Country and seeing Inupiaq communities. They're like, we don't want to go back, but we also don't want to forget, right? Like I do like having a lot of modern convenience.

[00:49:06] And so, or we see other cultures when they merge or connect the changes, the changes in dress, the changes in patterns of life. And that is a very real human thing. And so to see the Osage as they're adopting these new styles and these new patterns, using

[00:49:27] a motor car. Well, so we talked about the Choctaw we talked about during our Echo coverage. And so this is one of the other quote unquote five civilized tribes that did the Trail of Tears because they were closer to where they, before they were moved, they were already

[00:49:48] starting to adopt more European customs and dress. Exactly. Yep. So yeah, if you want to see and judge for yourself, then you'll find it on Apple TV Plus or video on demand. And that brings us to our fourth of the big four, Barbie.

[00:50:04] Now yeah, Barbie was produced by David Hyman, Margot Robbie, Tom Ackerley, and Robbie Brenner. And no relation. And this is Margot Robbie's only path to an Oscar for this film, but it's unlikely to win at this point.

[00:50:19] The plot is that as a woman who works for Mattel accidentally causes stereotypical Barbie to start malfunctioning, sending her on a journey of self discovery with her Ken in tow, which upends the entire social order of Barbie land. And it was nominated for eight awards.

[00:50:40] So yeah, this was one of my favorite films of the year. I was, for a while throughout the year, I was all gung ho for this to take home the top prize, but it seems to be losing steam and I'm throwing my weight behind four things now. Okay.

[00:51:07] So we interviewed Marilyn Arpiquilla, our favorite Tolkien scholar and somebody that lorehounds community should know well. She's an original Barbie consumer. And so yeah, we wanted to chat with her and get her take on it. So let's listen to that interview now. Okay.

[00:51:27] Here to talk with us about Barbie, our favorite Tolkien scholar, Marilyn Arpiquilla. Marilyn, it's good to see you. Welcome back again. Thank you. It's great to see both of you, David and Alicia. It's been a while since we've been on the microphone with you.

[00:51:40] So I'm glad we could make this work out. So we're going to talk a little bit about Barbie as a movie, as an Oscars movie. But one of the reasons we wanted to talk with you is because you collected Barbie from the early days.

[00:51:59] Like how far back do you go with Barbie? Well, I'm actually three years older than Barbie. That'll give it a nice context right there. There was something called the Barbie doll bridge when I was five or six years old, because I really wanted a dark haired Barbie.

[00:52:17] And the blonde ones were in stock, but I think the dark haired with the ponytail on the top of her head was the OG Barbie. And that was what I wanted. And at five or six, trying to dissuade, not an easy job.

[00:52:30] So once a week when we went grocery shopping, we'd drive across this bridge and that was also where the toy store was. And so we would stop at the toy store to see if, you know, my Barbie had come in. And it took like weeks and weeks.

[00:52:43] And this was in, I don't know, 61 or 62 or something like that. So it had a very intense place in my life for a while. The whole thing about the dream houses is fascinating to me because of course, Barbie

[00:52:58] dropped out of my world, you know, within 10 years of that time. And I never saw the 1990s pink Barbies with the slide down and all that kind of stuff. That's the stuff that I was collecting. Yeah, right. Exactly. So, you know, next generation down.

[00:53:11] My dream house in 1962 had no pink and there was no bed for Ken. There was no kitchen. So all of those domestic kinds of things gone. She had clearly been to college because she had varsity banners on her walls, but it was

[00:53:27] a place for her to have fun, to be entertained. There was a TV, there was a record player. There was a picture of Ken on the wall, so he wasn't completely gone. But no cooking, no cleaning, no children, boyfriend, but not living.

[00:53:42] And there's a terrific New York Times article about all of the evolution of the dream houses. So if anyone is interested in that, maybe we can put a link to it in the show notes, although it is New York Times.

[00:53:52] So I know sometimes it's hard to get through that well. So at the end, I wound up with two black haired Barbies, one blonde skipper, one red headed skipper, one brunette scooter, one blonde Ken and one brown haired Ken.

[00:54:07] And none of them have cellulite, but they do have very sticky skin. You know how plastic toys that sort of develop this thing. I don't know. I don't know how I'd have it. No, I have feet. No, no flat feet. Or well, maybe Ken head. Well, Ken head.

[00:54:21] Sure. Yeah. I noticed in going through all this, because I still have them up in the guest bedroom here. I think some of those were actually given to me, whether by an older friend or cousin or something.

[00:54:35] I don't know, because I don't remember going out and buying all of those. And I had the bridal gown, which was the most expensive thing. I would never have had enough money to buy it.

[00:54:43] My mother would have said, I'll make you one rather than pay for it kind of thing. So I think somebody must have given them to me. And the next house after that had a little bit of pink. And then that was like a townhouse.

[00:54:59] And then there was an A-frame from 1979, also with almost no pink. So pink really became a thing in the 1990s. Okay. Interesting. I'm looking at one of these early ones and it looks like a very kind of a cardboardy construction.

[00:55:13] But I love the fact that on the bookshelf is a set of Encyclopedia Britannica, encyclopedias I think the ones that we had had a very similar spine to them. So I feel very connected to this photo here. Yeah. And the console TV.

[00:55:30] I actually put some photos of all the stuff in one of the Discord channels, the one for movies. So if people are interested, they can zoom in there quickly and take a look at stuff. Yeah, they were made of cardboard. They're so tattered because we had silverfish.

[00:55:44] Silverfish love to eat paper. And that was not good. The very first thing I got, other than the doll, the carrying case, I noticed it doesn't even say and can on it. Wow. It just says Barbie. Barbie. Very cool. So I thought that was interesting.

[00:56:01] You know what I found interesting that I learned from? There is an excellent podcast by LA Made. They did a series about the history of Barbie. And I didn't realize... Well, first of all, you learn a lot about the history of Barbie through the movie we're

[00:56:13] about to talk about, which I really appreciated. But I didn't realize that Barbie was actually the name of the inventor's daughter. Yes, that was cool. And Ken, I guess, was her son. Oh, okay.

[00:56:27] There were so many different types of Barbies that I had never seen before or didn't know about. I mean, it really was pretty astonishing. And I think I had the scooter and the skipper and all that because I was the younger daughter.

[00:56:37] I had an older sister and I started to gravitate towards that. So I probably gave my sister a skipper. I was collecting in the 80s and 90s. And at first it started with just playing as a kid.

[00:56:50] I liked that and Jem and My Little Ponies, you know, and I had all the house and stuff. But then later, I just liked to collect dolls with very pretty or interesting outfits and just put them on display and look at them.

[00:57:03] And that's when I started to get really into fashion. So yeah, Barbie was my gateway fashion doll. And I got to say, the earlier clothing was a lot better made. It was there were more details and it wasn't just a slap of fabric together on a string

[00:57:21] and one snapping back and there's a skirt. You know, I mean, it was more classic. Well, I got the special editions, which were a bit more elaborate. Oh, well, yeah. Those would have been, wouldn't they? But yeah, the movie.

[00:57:34] So the movie was directed by Greta Gerwig, who's before this probably best known for Little Women, which is an amazing film also. Yes, it is. And the screenplay was by her and her equally famous husband, Noah Baumbach, whose many of you might be fans of his films.

[00:57:49] And yet this is actually the first live action Barbie film. And just a quick plot recap for anyone who hasn't seen it. Barbie and Ken have existential crises in Barbieland and visit the real world where

[00:58:00] they meet another woman and a company, Mattel, going through existential crises of their own. And a lot of people saw this movie because there was some brilliant marketing behind it. Like, you know, I have a degree in marketing and I have to give them all the applause.

[00:58:14] Like the mysterious teasers they started with, the posters online were like, I am, you know, science Barbie. I'm Alicia Barbie. The photo boxes at events and of course, the whole Barbenheimer, you know, event that nobody could have predicted that drove both movies to phenomenal intakes.

[00:58:33] This one got nearly 1.5 billion at the box office. It's the 14th highest grossing film of all time and obviously of 2023. And yeah, it's one of the films that's been like looming large over award season in general.

[00:58:47] It's got eight Oscar nominations, best picture, best supporting actor for Ryan Gosling, best supporting actress for America Ferreira, best adapted screenplay, best costume design, best production design and two songs nominated for best original song. Has that ever happened before? Two songs? Yeah, sure.

[00:59:05] But they do actually, there were three that could have been nominated this time because the Dua Lipa song could have also been well nominated, but there's a max that there can only be two songs for the Oscars in the same category.

[00:59:16] And yeah, the cast is just absolutely insane. We can't even list them all, but just Helen Mirren, Rhea Perlman, Kate McKinnon, Issa Ray, Dua Lipa, Michael Cera, Simu Liu, Ben Kingsley-Adair, Shu Tegatwa, Will Ferrell, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:59:35] But I know Marilyn, you agree with me that Robbie was robbed and so was Gerwig. Absolutely. I just don't understand how you can have a best picture and not have the best director. I just heard Robbie's depiction was so, I mean, she had the whole luminous thing going,

[00:59:56] but she also, somebody called her a naive, but big heart and not afraid to go out there and confront the construction workers when she discovered that they didn't exactly have a lot of feminine energy going on. I really, really was disappointed at that decision.

[01:00:14] No, I mean, I think she gave a brilliant performance. She actually was like the fourth in line to play Barbie because originally this film was developed by Universal and it was going to be Amy Schumer, but she was like, you're not

[01:00:28] going to be, let me do what I want to do. And then Anne Hathaway was going to play Barbie and then it went over to WB and they first offered it to Gal Gadot. Oh really? Interesting. Yeah. That would have been very interesting and a completely different film.

[01:00:41] Yeah. I just can't imagine it any other way. I'm so glad it ended up the way that it is. Although we would have gotten a brunette Barbie instead of a blonde Barbie. Yeah, I do wonder if they were going to put a blonde wig on Gal Gadot.

[01:00:53] I think they were. I can't imagine them not doing this as a blonde. And yet you, Marilyn, you were talking about does myth shape culture or does culture shape myth? What do you mean by this question in the notes?

[01:01:08] Well, people blame Barbie for all kinds of giving women difficulties about how they look and completely unrealistic expectations and so on and so on. So you could say that's the doll shaping or the culture is trying to shape the doll.

[01:01:24] But at the same time she was reflecting culture. She was reflecting ideas at the time. Look at the shift from the original Barbie who was your average typical teenager. And then suddenly that whole raft of differing Barbies of all types, including abilities.

[01:01:44] And I don't think they changed any age that much. But the pregnant Skipper, they kept going back to her. I never heard of such a thing. Wheelchair Barbie, Barbies of different colors and all of that was a reflection of how culture had changed.

[01:02:01] This mirroring of object and culture has interested me for a very, very, very long time. I taught that perspective when I did my Women in Myth and Fairytale class. So you have toys that invite imaginative play and they're mirrors to our own culture and beliefs.

[01:02:19] A child can't play something that they've never seen or heard of before. And so some see Barbie as moving with culture and presenting alternatives and others see her as a source of oppression and anti-feminist sentiment, mostly due to her body shape, I think.

[01:02:34] But she's different things to different people. I remember when they... I was in high school, I think, when they redesigned Barbie to have slightly more realistic proportions and there was constant joking about, oh, fat Barbie. Just normal looking Barbie. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:02:49] Well, but they did bring out fat Barbie. Physically possible Barbie. Yeah. I loved the opening that talked about up until this point, dolls were only there to be mothered and fed and washed and changed and all this kind of thing.

[01:03:02] And suddenly here is a doll, still a doll, but a doll that does things. And it's not... At first people could say, well, what she does is she keeps changing clothes and so forth.

[01:03:15] But she's there living a life and is not asking anybody else to take care of her. They kind of captured that, I think, in the film. What do you think, Alyssa? Yeah. Well, I also love the opening because it's the 2001 Space Odyssey riff.

[01:03:30] And the film actually has so many references to classic film that it just made the film buff in me glow in my heart. That was one of the things that I came out of it really loving.

[01:03:44] And it just was set by that opening and you just know, okay, I'm in for a ride. Buckle up. Absolutely. Culture talking to culture. And for me, it was the side of the black and white striped bathing suit because that was

[01:03:56] the very first thing that the first Barbie ever wore. And I don't know how far that carried into the future, but it was iconic. It was hysterically funny. I mean, I was just laughing out loud the whole time.

[01:04:10] I'm looking at the trailer, which does the whole 2001 Space Odyssey monolith thing. And it's so well targeted at bringing us into what the movie is going to do. We're going to examine these questions. We're going to upend our thoughts and our ideas about them.

[01:04:29] We're going to move history forward. So I think on that question of this cultural conversation, it's such an important film in the sense of shifting our ideas as culture and society. Absolutely. And I think with fun and with music and brilliant performances, it really does.

[01:04:49] It deserves all that it's garnered and more as we've said that there's some significant misses. But yeah, what an amazing, what a great thing for this corporation A, to allow this to happen, right? Because they own the rights to this.

[01:05:08] But then for Margot Robbie to actually have such a cutting insight and such a way to show us a mirror of culture and our society in a perfect summer fun blockbuster, it's a really, it's a phenomena.

[01:05:24] Well, and it was a gentle parody of second wave feminism until it wasn't. I mean, it didn't just stop there, which would have been the obvious place for many people. It went on and it really dug deep.

[01:05:38] And the thing that absolutely I adored, I was just crying, was the speech, sort of the climactic moment. Yeah, America for our speech. It is literally impossible to be a woman. And every single point she made, it was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. It was phenomenal.

[01:06:00] I never had a weird Barbie, but I know that that's definitely a thing. I remember seeing that. I would never desecrate my dolls, but I definitely saw other people's. I wouldn't either, Alicia. I'm with you on that one. I definitely saw other people's that were the weird Barbies.

[01:06:14] But isn't it interesting that they- Especially people with brothers. Yeah. Oh really? Huh. I just thought it was interesting that they included it. Was it the young feminists who were doing that? Was it people who just always did that three or four times anyway?

[01:06:28] I mean, I don't know, but it- We do that to our GI Joes and things like that. Yeah. Clearly it was a thing. At some point, we would just get kind of bored with these things and then we would then push some boundary, right?

[01:06:42] Blow them up or burn them or draw on them, what have you. But the other thing I liked was they didn't leave issues of gender solely swirling around women. That's such a common mistake. And so I also see that here they're parodying men's movements, particularly Iron John by

[01:07:00] Rubberfly and the horses and all that kind of stuff. So I'm glad- I thought it was about horses. Right, exactly. Exactly. And of course, if one is wanting the goal of changing gender relations in general, then you can't just quote unquote work on one of them.

[01:07:20] It has to be both. Right. Right. Yeah. I see. And I see that in the men's category also with this where they're talking about, we tried to tell the women to just be more liberal, but then the men got more violent toward them.

[01:07:36] Maybe we actually have to talk to the men. Hmm. Maybe. Such a novel concept. Yeah. But I think that they did this in a sensitive way because I know a lot of men also who have

[01:07:49] felt that their behavior is too prescribed by their gender, that people expect certain things from them. Absolutely. And they're like, I don't want to have to be a certain way. I want to be able to show my emotion when it feels necessary.

[01:08:05] I want to be able to show interest in certain things without being told that I no longer belong to my own gender. And I love that it addressed that straight on in a way that I felt was- I know people are like, oh, it's manhating.

[01:08:22] I disagree with that 100%. I think it's embracing the struggles that everyone goes through. Yeah. There is no ultimate male or female, and both of these categories are held up as quote unquote ideals, but they're actually prisons.

[01:08:43] And the other thing that it showed me is how far we have actually come. David, I hope I won't embarrass you, but when I think of you and John and how you talk about your children and how you're raising them, I tell you, it's pretty gobsmacking for somebody

[01:08:56] who was born when I was. We are not our father's sons in the same way as our fathers were. The number of diapers we've changed and the kind of primary caregiving that we are, it's just what we do. Exactly.

[01:09:10] It's not even like we're trying to break some stereotype or- No. It's not like our partners are demanding something. You just love your children. Sorry, what was that? You just love your spouses and children. Yeah, exactly.

[01:09:22] I want to be naturally engaged, but I think that's an important point is that there's no cultural markers that are saying that I can't be engaged. My expectation is to sit in the waiting room with a cigar with all the other nervous expecting

[01:09:35] dads and wait for the miracle to happen and then mostly benignly ignore my kid when they go talk to your mother. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what's changed is those ... We need categories. We need stereotypes. We need pathways, right, to follow, things to model from.

[01:09:57] But when the model becomes a prison as opposed to a, hey, here's this facet, here's this facet, here's this facet, and then you can kind of make your way through that and develop

[01:10:09] as a person as opposed to being constricted to you've got to drive a truck and you've got to have a goatee and you've got to wear your hat backwards and whatever. You can do that and that's fine, but when the expectation becomes when somebody else

[01:10:24] doesn't present the same way, then that's the problem. That's what I think we're trying to grapple with and that's what we're trying to erode. And we were having this conversation about the American fiction film with Ron Dawson

[01:10:36] and we were talking about the fact that in that film, something that that film successfully does is to be an inclusive conversation about race. And I as a not black person felt very included in that conversation and I got to laugh at

[01:10:51] all the jokes and I got to be part of it. And I think that's what's really remarkable about this year's Crab of Oscars with Barbie is I got to participate in a conversation about gender where I didn't feel boxed in, in one way or another.

[01:11:07] We all got to laugh at it and we all got to examine and we all got to go home with the things that we need to think about as us as individuals. But then we also got this great sociological perspective.

[01:11:17] We got to laugh at ourselves as a group culture as well. That's a hard thing to do. The keywords that rise for me are choice and mirroring. There was a lot of discussion about that going throughout, but the one thing that touched

[01:11:33] me most dearly was the scene at the bus stop where Barbie sits down and sees an older woman and says to her, you're so beautiful. And the older woman says, I know it. And that's when I really cried.

[01:11:50] And Greta Gerwig fought hard to keep that scene because the execs didn't get it. And she's like, no, this is, this scene is the entire movie. Right. Along with the other one that I mentioned earlier. Yeah.

[01:12:04] And good for Greta Gerwig for standing up and fighting for her creative vision. And that's why this movie is as good as it is because she was given the space to also because of how well, especially, you know, Little Women did. Exactly.

[01:12:18] I was actually just watching a documentary about the making of the Star Wars trilogy. And one of the whole things that Lucas is fighting for this whole time is for his own creative voice, his own creative vision, which we could question.

[01:12:31] There's no doubt that there's some questionable things there. But in terms of the balance between what a studio has to say and what a creative person has to say, there has to be a tension there. And I think it's necessary.

[01:12:43] But when it because I think it for a creative to have to fight a little bit, it's good because it makes you sharpen your arguments and makes you balance. Good creativity comes from struggling with the constraints.

[01:12:58] At the same time, when studios go too far, then we just get watered down pablum. Yeah, that is exactly just flavorless and tasteless. And I'm so glad that Margot Robbie had the footing and the force of character and will.

[01:13:15] I mean, you have to have a huge ego to direct a movie because it's sprawling in terms of crews and actors. You mean Gerwig? Mm-hmm. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. Did I say? You said Robbie. Yeah. My apologies.

[01:13:28] So good for her for fighting through her vision and really standing on what she believed she wanted to say with this movie. And like you said, Alicia, that's what makes it a good movie.

[01:13:38] It has a point of view and it has something to say from that point of view. And such a clever, witty, and impactful way of saying it. You mentioned Star Wars a minute ago? Yep. Of course. It's the Lore House podcast. Well, hello.

[01:13:55] There was a very Star Wars quote that came from someone of great importance, I won't spoil that, who says, mothers stand still so their daughters can see how far they've come. And I was right there, believe it or not, in The Last Jedi when Yoda says, the greatest

[01:14:14] teacher failure is Luke. We are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters. Yeah. Yeah, I think that a lot of people felt seen in this movie. Mothers felt seen in this movie. Asexual people felt seen in this movie.

[01:14:30] Mermaids felt seen in this movie. You know, so I think for every demographic. Yeah, so Marilyn, are there any other films that you saw this year that you are in love with or that you're rooting for at the Oscars? Or just think people should see in general?

[01:14:46] Well, I don't, this was not nominated for the Oscars. I really enjoyed Freud's Last Session. Oh, I've heard good things about that. Yeah. Because C.S. Lewis, it had originally been a stage play. And then the script writer for the stage play became the screenwriter for the film.

[01:15:06] And all of a sudden, I'm back into all these wonderful questions about adaptation and why did they choose to do this? But there were times when I was thinking, gosh, this could almost be a play on stage. And afterwards, I said, well, imagine that. Because it was.

[01:15:21] But that's one thing that really sticks out in my mind. I'm not sure I saw many of the other Oscar nominees. I should have a list in front of me so I could run down. Sorry.

[01:15:31] You have the Oscars Death Race website if you want to join the marathon. Like we have the time. Make myself smarter. I have a few other marathons to run right now. Yes. Great. Well, thank you, Marilyn, for joining us on this conversation.

[01:15:48] It was, I'm just glad that we got to have this movie and we got to talk about it. I wish we could talk about it a little bit more. Maybe we'll do a retrospective on Barbie one year later. Well, there you go.

[01:15:59] I mean, one of my questions is if they hadn't coincided, would we even have ever had Barbie? Would it have? Yeah. I think Barbie would have done well because of the marketing. But I think, I mean, and you know what?

[01:16:12] Oppenheimer would have done well because it's Christopher Nolan. So but I think this definitely magnified both. Yeah, I think so. Great. All right, Marilyn, we'll talk to you again soon. Thanks for dropping by. Well, thank you so much for including me. I really had fun.

[01:16:25] So yeah, if you want to watch this film for yourself, then you'll find it on HBO Max or Video On Demand. Yeah, I think I kind of want to watch it again. Yeah. Because there's so much in it, you know, that I've kind of missed it.

[01:16:40] I think I'm going to do a double feature of Barbie and Past Lives the night before the Oscars. There you go. Good. All right. Well, let's take a quick break. And then when we come back, we'll pick it up with Maestro. And we're back.

[01:17:07] Okay, Alicia, let's talk a little bit about the Bradley Cooper vehicle. I don't know what else is it. Maestro, why don't you kick us off? Yeah. So if Maestro were to win Best Picture, the award would go to Bradley Cooper, Steven Spielberg,

[01:17:24] Fred Berner, Amy Durning and Christy Moscovo-Krieger. The plot is that it's a life and career and marriage and extramarital affairs of iconic American composer Leonard Bernstein. And it received five nominations. Today we'll talk about Best Picture, Best Actor for Bradley Cooper, Best Actress for

[01:17:43] Carey Mulligan and Best Original Screenplay. And in part three, we'll get into makeup and hair, sound and cinematography. So what were you've watched Maestro? What were your thoughts on it, David? Yeah, we saw it. I watched it with my in-laws.

[01:18:03] For them, I think part of what was special about the film was watching it with them because Bernstein was part of their life growing up, especially as New Yorkers. They grew up in the Bronx and for them that was culture.

[01:18:21] That was what was in and around and those school programs, going to seeing the symphony. That was stuff that they did. On one level, that was cool in a contextual level. On another level, I thought that the film was really interesting in the way it was shot

[01:18:42] and I really enjoyed it. I really nerded out on a bunch of the way that the film was put together. There's one scene, I won't talk about the details of it, but basically the two characters

[01:18:56] are talking down, I don't know, like 20, 30 yards away from the camera and down through a pergola garden trellis thing and you can't really see them. The camera's locked off on a steady shot and yet the audio is as if we're sitting right

[01:19:19] next to them, almost in between the two characters talking. That's one example of something that really blew me away in how the visual construct of the movie told the story of these people and the stuff that they were dealing with.

[01:19:40] The idea that the film also tracks with, it goes from black and white to technicolor to regular color, the kind of color that we're used to now, as marking eras in time and bringing us through those different sensibilities.

[01:19:55] I thought all of that was brilliant and I really enjoyed it. On the flip side, it's a very well polished and packaged- Very well polished, yeah. Yes. And it really does feel like Bradley Cooper was leaning into this is going to be my Oscar.

[01:20:17] I hate to ascribe that motive to him because I want to enjoy the art that he put together and presented to us. So I'm trying to not be cynical, let that little cynical voice in my mind think that.

[01:20:31] So I just want to try to enjoy it on that level. But at the same time, there was something ... We complain a lot about when a movie is or a TV show is kind of sloppy with its plot mechanics or it rattles around a little bit.

[01:20:45] And this was so tightly put together, there's no shake or rattle in it. And somehow that pushes it off in a way that's kind of weird. I don't know how to describe it otherwise. I always think of ... There's this quote that Katherine Hepburn said about a young Meryl

[01:21:05] Streep and she said, you can see the gears turning. And I feel that way about this movie. You just see how ... And it's like, wow, that's really beautifully put together, but it doesn't have the soul. I like a little messiness, a little human rawness.

[01:21:25] And of course we're seeing a flawed person. This is about ... It's an American icon's passion project affecting the life of another American icon. I think he does do ... He transformed himself physically and in acting. Absolutely. I give him credit for that.

[01:21:41] Great artistic intent and technical proficiency, I can say that. It's very proficient. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. One thing that bothers me about it is that I feel like I did get insight into Leonard Bernstein, but not his wife.

[01:21:55] And she's being billed as actually the lead. But the only thing I learned about her is she used to be an actress. And why? I don't know. How she felt about it? I don't know. She just got mad at her husband a lot. I know that.

[01:22:06] So their fights got kind of repetitive for me. And I wish this had been a 40 minute short. Because I also loved the little interludes where they have a little dance interlude at one point.

[01:22:18] I think this one, probably its best chance to get an Oscar is Makeup and Hair. We'll talk about that more in the last episode. Also, we can't underestimate the Netflix factor here. Netflix has 11 films nominated this year. So it's got the most films nominated. That's pretty amazing.

[01:22:38] Yeah, I would definitely recommend Maestro. People see it. I think if you're of a culture and a time where Bernstein is part of your growing up or part of your life in the cultural ground that he broke, it's definitely worth something seeing. It's a great visual film.

[01:23:06] It's not a film that I'm going to run back and pick up again. I saw it. It was great. I'm so glad it's out there. But yeah, it doesn't feel like it has that dynamic force. It's not like a sentimental favorite that I go back and think about.

[01:23:21] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I thought about the film. The film stayed with me for three or four days after I watched it. And then since then, I haven't thought about it once. Yeah, but it's easy to watch and it's beautiful cinematography. Would love some stills as well. Absolutely. Yeah.

[01:23:41] And great performances all around. And again, looking at that all successful people who really do change culture or are out saying something, they're not doing that alone. There are people in and around their lives who are an integral part of that.

[01:24:01] And to see into that was also, I think, very important to understand. And then to understand the fact that at that time and place, he could not be out as a gay man and live fully in the way that...

[01:24:14] And so there's a lot of painful compromises and things that they had to go through as a family. And so I guess we're still litigating the movie here. And I think that maybe that's important because there's also this other level of this family

[01:24:29] drama of what do you do when you've got this outsized personality, but also this outsized personality who's having to live in this box and not being able to live a truth about them and then confronting with that truth and how that affects those relationships that

[01:24:48] you've had for all that time. So I think the film works on that level as well. So next in line is one that a lot of people love because it has a lot of heart in it, is The Holdovers, which ties with Maestro at five nominations.

[01:25:06] The producer in this case is Mark Johnson, who last won for Rain Man in 1988. And it's about a curmudgeonly private school teacher who gets stuck with, quote unquote, the holdovers. The student is forced to stay behind during Christmas break.

[01:25:21] And he and the school cook who recently lost her son and a former student at the school, they find moments of bonding and joy together through this holiday. And the five nominations are, today we're going to talk about Best Picture, Best Actor

[01:25:36] for Paul Giamatti, Best Supporting Actress for Daveyne Joy Randolph, and Best Original Screenplay. And in part three, we'll get into film editing. So this one is like a modern dead poet society. People like the retro prep school holiday vibes. I mean, it's considered a feel good story.

[01:25:55] I'm like, kind of? Would you put it in the same class of prep school, like with Rushmore as well? I mean, it's not a comedy in the same way as Rushmore is, like kind of a satire. This is more earnest. Only in as much as a prep school.

[01:26:14] Daveyne Joy Randolph is the biggest attention getter in discussions about this movie. And also she's like dominating award season. It's very likely she'll win. Oh, really? Okay. And yeah, there was some Alexander Payne controversy because Rose McGowan made some allegations

[01:26:29] against him, but that could detract from the movie. But honestly, it seems like people are ignoring it. Okay. Which I find a bit sad, but anyway. I find it myself, it was like a pleasant but meandering film. I like it, but I'm not passionate about it.

[01:26:48] But there are a lot of people who it's a sentimental favorite of the year, including Gnarls from our Discord. Howdy award show watching Philistines. This is Gnarls here calling in to discuss two films being considered for best picture this year, The Holdovers and Oppenheimer.

[01:27:08] First up, let's talk about The Holdovers. Directed by Alexander Payne, this Christmas-themed coming of age tale combined with a midlife finding yourself story topped off with the character of Mary's standpoint that grounds the story and illustrates how many of the problems the two central characters face are

[01:27:27] mostly of their own creation. The feeling of intimacy this film creates between the audience and these characters make it one of my favorites of the year. The film I will be rooting for to win best picture is Oppenheimer, directed by Christopher Nolan.

[01:27:43] Where The Holdovers is intimate and heartwarming, Oppenheimer is aloof and existential. The grandiose philosophical themes raised by the film, chief amongst them are the consequences of technology and the ethics of loyalty, make this the most thought-provoking and deep story told this past year.

[01:28:03] As far as other awards go, I would like to see Cillian Murphy and Robert Downey Jr. win Best Actor and Best Supporting Actor for their roles in Oppenheimer and Divine Joy Randolph win Best Supporting Actress for her role in The Holdovers.

[01:28:21] Oh, and before I go, I want to stump for Godzilla Minus One. I really wish that film was nominated for best picture as well because the Academy has discriminated against radioactive lizards for far too long. Justice for radioactive lizards. Anyways, thanks for taking my call.

[01:28:39] Keep doing what y'all do and I'll be listening. Bye. Thanks, Narls. That was awesome. So we got his full spread there. We got a whole picture. So does this make you tempted to watch The Holdovers?

[01:28:53] I think if my slate wasn't so full with some of the stuff that we've got to do for television coverage, I definitely would throw it into my bin of, oh, this might be a nice Friday

[01:29:05] night watch or a nice Saturday night watch when I've got a little extra time and catching up on things. I don't know that I would see this in the theater. This to me feels very much like a... I think it's too late. Yeah.

[01:29:18] Well, he was still playing not long ago at my local. Giamatti, he's kind of a... I don't know. He's got some sort of weird cult status now as an actor. I'm glad to see that he's gotten a nomination and some recognition.

[01:29:35] He's a strong contender in a strong category. Absolutely. So yeah, I think it's... Yeah, for me not a film that I would necessarily rush out to see, but I should... It's one of those movies that I should watch.

[01:29:48] And then the question is, will I ever get around to? Well, if you do your best picture 10 project this year, then... Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I shared my feelings about it and I agree with Nearls that Oppenheimer's

[01:30:02] aloof, which is maybe why I don't respond to it as much. I do like films with heart and this one, yeah, this one satisfies, but doesn't blow me out of the water in this one.

[01:30:12] But I do think Nearls is likely to get his wish on the acting nominations. Killian, RDJ and Dave Eynor are all likely to win. If you want to see this yourself, it is on Peacock, the streamer that David doesn't have

[01:30:26] in the US and video on demand as well. Which brings us to a film that David, you have seen and I know you like very much, American Fiction, another five time nominee this year. So the producers on this one are Ben LeClaire, Nikos Karamiglios and Cord Jefferson, the

[01:30:47] writer director and Jermaine Johnson. And the plot is it's about a university professor angry that his work is being treated differently due to his skin tone, invents a ghettoized caricature of an alter ego to turn his next book into a bestseller.

[01:31:03] So the five nominations today we'll talk about Best Picture, Best Actor for Jeffrey Wright, Best Supporting Actor for Sterling K. Brown and Best Adapted Screenplay. And in part three, we'll get into score. Yeah. So we got to see this.

[01:31:18] We got, well, we'll talk about it in the interview. We've got an interview with Ron Dawson and I'll talk a little bit about that when we're in the interview. But we got to go see it with some friends. We really enjoyed it.

[01:31:29] We all had, again, like Barbie, we came out of the theater laughing and feeling positive and good at the same time of thinking about things and being like, oh yeah, that's something that we should be paying attention to or we should be having conversations about or we

[01:31:47] should be changing in some way. And not in a way of heaviness, but I don't know. It left such a warm glow after the film. And I just love the fact that it could work on multiple levels.

[01:32:02] I heard a number of interviews with Cord Jefferson on various podcasts. Sounds like a great guy and I'm really excited for him for his career. I'm definitely curious about everything he does after this. Yeah. All right. So let's listen to the interview. Ron Dawson, welcome to the Lorehounds.

[01:32:19] So happy to have you here talking about some Oscars. Thanks for having me, David. And nice to meet you, Alicia. Yeah, great to meet you. Very excited to have you on. We were kicking around like different people we wanted to talk to and I was like, I got

[01:32:33] to talk to Ron. We got to get him on the podcast somewhere. So you said you were interested in talking about American fiction. So that's great. It's such a good film. I really had a good time.

[01:32:43] Just really quick, since you're a little bit of a new voice with us on Lorehounds, you want to just give everyone just a couple of quick biography bullet points about you? Yeah. I've been podcasting, blogging in the film and video world for over two decades.

[01:32:56] I have a podcast that's still online called Radio Film School. I call it essentially This American Life for Filmmakers. I did that a few years ago. Very cool. I am currently by day, I'm a content marketer for a tech company. By night, so to speak.

[01:33:12] I make a lot of tech talks about faith, religion, deconstruction. And I wrote a satirical memoir, which is why American fiction really relates to me, about my journey as a black man. If you can't tell by my voice, I am black.

[01:33:26] I don't have that, you know, I wish I had that Lou Rawls or... Well, you're not playing... Yeah, but it's Tag R. Lee. Right, right, right. Anyway, so I wrote a satirical memoir called Dungeons and Durags, Black Nerds, Comic Requests

[01:33:43] about my crisis of faith and reconnecting with my blackness. And I have a podcast by the same name with my two best friends who are always teasing me about all the things about the black community I don't know that I should know.

[01:33:55] And so that's kind of my thing. It's kind of my stance. I've listened to a bunch of the episodes of Dungeons and Durags and had some good laughs for that. That was... Oh, good. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

[01:34:07] I'm a nerd too, in a lot of meta nerd spiritual ways. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. And I'm online everywhere. It's just Blurred Runner. Okay. BlurredRunner.com takes me to all the socials and everything. Awesome. Alicia, we are here to talk about American fiction.

[01:34:23] Do you want to do a little setup? Yeah. So this is based on the 2001 novel Erasure by Percival Everett. And just borrowing this recap from Wikipedia and embellishing, it follows a frustrated novelist slash professor, Dr. Thelonious Monk Ellison, who writes an outlandish satire

[01:34:42] of stereotypical black books under the fake identity Stagg R. Lee, only for it to be mistaken by the liberal elite for serious literature and published to both high sales and critical praise. So it was written and directed by Cord Jefferson. And this is his first film.

[01:34:58] His background is in journalism. And then he transitioned into TV writing and he's worked on a bunch of top shows like The Good Place and Station Eleven and, you know, really impressive resume. The Watchmen. The Watchmen. Yeah. Master of None. Yeah. He has quite a pedigree.

[01:35:17] This adapted screenplay, he was a surprise winner at the BAFTAs. So this means that this film is picking up a little bit of steam going into the Oscars. So it debuted at Toronto, the film festival, and it won the People's Choice Award there.

[01:35:31] And it's like been nominated for a slew of awards since. And it's now nominated for five Oscars, Best Picture, Best Actor for Jeffrey Wright, Best Supporting Actor for Sterling K. Brown, Best Adapted Screenplay and Best Original Score.

[01:35:45] And yeah, it was originally given a limited release and only went wide after the Oscar nomination. So just showing you the Oscars are still relevant. And yeah, the all star cast is ridiculous. Yeah, the cast is crazy.

[01:35:57] Yeah, we've got like Tracee Ellen Ross, Issa Rae, John Ortiz, Erika Alexander, Leslie Uggams, Adam Brody and Keith David amongst others. But yeah, Ron, since this is one that you were particularly interested in talking about, obviously you have a personal connection with it.

[01:36:11] What do you think makes this Oscar special? I think what I love about this movie is obviously being a satirist myself. I'm a huge fan of satire, especially satire in film and when it's done right and when it's done well. It really makes you have tough conversations.

[01:36:28] And what I really particularly love about American fiction is that it satirizes obviously the liberal elite, the sort of like the white liberals in this movie are so funny in terms of their self-importance. Yes, we will enjoy it on Long Island.

[01:36:42] I mean, I mean, that was a perfect example. It's such an important film and how they find, you know, a book about the struggles of the black man to be important. But at the same time, it pokes fun at bougie black folk. Right?

[01:36:58] Like in a way that is actually I think he does a good balance of showing because it's apparent and this is non-spoilery, right? Yeah, there's a lot of huge spoilers in the movie, but it's apparent in the movie that Monk comes from a wealthy family.

[01:37:12] I mean, he has a woman- The loneliest monk. Right, right, right. And so they have a beach house, they have a number of houses. So he grew up with wealth. So he grew up around bougie black folk in a sense.

[01:37:26] But you can tell the relationship he has with the person who has raised them, who has been sort of like their house assistant for years, is like a member of their family. Their relationship he has with his siblings, with his sister in particular, is strong.

[01:37:42] But he does have this sense of his own sense of self-importance. And I think the points he makes in the movie are good. This idea that the only kind of black stories that people can find and take seriously are

[01:37:58] the stories where we're drug dealers and we're pimps or we speak in Ebonics, and he wants to write these stories that have nothing to do with that version of black America. And they're not quote unquote black stories, so people aren't as popular.

[01:38:15] But without giving too much away, he has this interaction with Issa Rae's character, who is a popular black author and her books are more quote unquote stereotypically black. But they have interaction later on that I don't want to spoil that opens your eyes and

[01:38:31] kind of shows a different mindset. And that's one of the things I really liked about the film too. That it's funny, it's enjoyable. That's actually the most interesting relationship. Yeah, absolutely. When I first saw the trailers for it, it reminded me a lot, I'm sure there have been

[01:38:45] comparisons made to Spike Lee's Bamboozled, which came out like 20, almost 30 years ago, I think. And that's all about a disgruntled black executive in the TV world who wants to get out of his contract.

[01:39:00] So he makes up an outlandish, a stereotypical TV show about two black people who wear black face. And then he talks about how he makes them blacker in hopes that it'll be so outlandish that he'll get fired. But America gobbles it up and makes him even more popular.

[01:39:17] And the trailers for this looks pretty much like that. But you're pleasantly surprised when you don't even get to that aspect of story to almost a second act. And it is very much also this touching story about family dynamics and Monk's relationship

[01:39:36] with the Eric Alexander character, and how he needs to come to grips with how he pushes people away sometimes. And it's a beautiful love story, romantic comedy even, and a good family story as well as a satire. Yeah, it's got a little of everything.

[01:39:54] I know David, you were also particularly a fan. Do you have anything you wanted to add to it? Yeah, I really enjoyed this film. I was looking forward to seeing it. We got to go out- Did you think it was an important film, David? An important film.

[01:40:06] I think it's an important film because for me, it's a return to film that is not IP based. It's not big explosions, not heavy on the visual effect. It's just a bunch of people talking and dealing with their lives in a very real and grounded way.

[01:40:28] And so for me, it was important like that regard because I was like, oh cool. We had a double date with some other family friends of ours. Our kids took care of each other. We went out, had a bite to drink and then went and saw the movies.

[01:40:42] And it was just such a lovely return to form. And it was just such a fun and engaging film that made us laugh. But then also as not a black man, it was a conversation about race that I really felt included in.

[01:40:59] I felt I was part of the conversation as opposed to observing the conversation or listening to the conversation. But I actually got to be in dialogue with the characters and that felt really refreshing.

[01:41:12] And I think maybe for a lot of reasons, that's one of the things that has really endeared me to the film is that we get to have this conversation together. And like you said, the satire is really cutting. There's some hilarious lines.

[01:41:30] And then there's this really touching family drama and something that a lot of us are dealing with is aging parents and how do we navigate those spaces? How do we deal with money and money when it relates to family?

[01:41:46] And the stuff with Sterling K. Brown, man, what a performance and what a way to address questions of sexuality and race and class. So it packages it all up.

[01:42:01] And none of it has ever, none of it ever felt to me like it's shoving it in my face or like, you know, feel these issues or deal with this. It was a very grounded, realistic look at modern life and the complexities of modern

[01:42:19] life that had a lot of heart. And listeners of the Lorehounds know that one of my favorite things to talk about is, you know, the only true story which is here it comes, is the human heart in conflict with itself.

[01:42:34] And to see Jeffrey Wright's character dealing with his internal struggle and his conflict and when his, well, I don't want to say anything, but the resolution of that, it's very authentic and very real. And it was very touching.

[01:42:50] And so as an all-around movie, I can say from a directorial standpoint, I've heard a few interviews with Cord and he's great. He's very eloquent and he talks a lot about his experience of being a first-time filmmaker.

[01:43:07] And there was a few times in the film, and maybe Ron, you saw this or Alicia, where I just thought the lighting was off or the staging, the blocking was a little awkward.

[01:43:17] And at first I was like, oh no, I hope this doesn't, but then it completely, I was like, oh, I was fine with it all from a filmmaker standpoint. I don't think it's going to, you know, don't see it for that, see it for the characters.

[01:43:28] It's such a lovely character drama. And I really hope that Cord, sounds like he learned a lot. Oh yeah, for sure. He definitely did. And I'm hoping he's going to be bringing some new titles. Yeah, first feature. So a strong way to enter the movie sphere.

[01:43:43] But of course, yeah, he had all those great shows, the writing at least on, you know, behind him to help him. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, I think there's a reason why this film was nominated for acting, writing and music awards.

[01:43:56] And I agree, those are the places where it shines. Yeah. What did you think, Alicia? For me, this was, I've watched all the films and when I ranked them, it's in the middle of the pack for me. I think it's an enjoyable film.

[01:44:10] For me, the conversation wasn't as new, I think, as for a lot of people who were blown away just because I am a writer and I've had a lot of these conversations over the years with friends.

[01:44:21] So it was like, well, this is well-represented and ideas that have been expressed to me before. But I think that the acting was phenomenal. I especially, I'm all over the place with who I want to win Best Actor because it's such a competitive category.

[01:44:36] But at the moment, thinking about it, I'm like, I kind of, I'm on the Jeffrey Wright train at the moment because he had to play basically two characters in this. And that was by far the best part of the movie for me, was just like seeing him struggle

[01:44:49] with that and like switch back and forth. And yeah, I think that he did a really brilliant job. No, I think that's a great point in terms of him playing two characters because he plays his main character, but then he plays this pretend character, Stagger, right?

[01:45:07] Or something like that. Yeah. Staggerly, yeah. Staggerly, who's this ex-gangster from the hood who's on the run. And so he has to talk more like he's from- He changes the way he walks. Yeah. You're right. Yeah. He puts on this whole persona and he does it very realistically.

[01:45:25] And it's something that, you know, within the black community, there's this thing called code switching, which is where you change how you talk when you're among white people versus when you're among other people.

[01:45:34] So I think there's a little bit of that that speaks a lot to something in the black community. But I think the point you made, David, how you felt invited into the conversation.

[01:45:43] I think a lot of times these type of movies can feel didactic and where the person in one particular demographic may feel like they're being either spoken down to or they're being spoken at or they're being lectured to or whatever.

[01:46:01] And sometimes it's difficult to thread that needle, to create something that can criticize one demographic, but still make that demographic feel invited to the conversation, which I think is something that's hard to do on paper, but then also to direct it. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:46:17] I think it's also the reason that it works on that level is because it's also showing disparity within the black community. It's also criticizing the Issa Rae character to a certain degree. And so that makes it- But then she's great.

[01:46:28] She's giving a great representation of the fact that she's responding to the market and what's wrong with that? Like there's nothing wrong with writing to popular fiction, right? And some of the things you learn about her story, the book that she wrote even changes

[01:46:43] your mindset because we look at the trailer and we first see her when she's introduced, you do have a certain stereotype that's placed on her as an author and the kind of work that she writes.

[01:46:56] And then as you start seeing her interaction with some of the other authors, when you start seeing this interaction that she has with Jeffrey Wright's character and some of the things she reveals, you feel a little bit of shame. Like, oh wow, that's something I didn't think about.

[01:47:13] And I think that made her character more three-dimensional. She wasn't this two-dimensional stereotype, cookie cutter stereotype that you thought if you just saw the trailer or in the first half of the film. And I think that's one of the- Yeah, it's satire with depth. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:47:33] And I think even with the secondary characters, we get a little bit of three-dimensionality to them, a little entree into their deeper emotional lives with the housekeeper and then the person that she is.

[01:47:45] We understand them to a degree that we would normally just get a flat two-dimensional pass by. Yeah. I think that's a great point. And so the whole movie just keeps unfolding in that way, kind of like a little origami structure.

[01:47:56] You're like, oh wow, oh, oh wow, oh, oh wow. And you just keep discovering these little things in it. They keep rolling out different stuff. So yeah, I really, on the question of what Oscars that it's going for, it's hard for

[01:48:09] me to comment necessarily on the best picture or the best actor because it's tough and there's a lot going on and I'm just not as filmy in that regard. But gosh, Sterling K. Brown, that would be great for him to win an Oscar for sure.

[01:48:28] And it would be great for an adapted screenplay because that would just land right on cords for what he's done. But Barbie! But yeah, it's true. Actually, no, I went poor things for adapted screenplay.

[01:48:39] But yeah, this is also, it's a worthy contender and it could win, especially you see the BAFTA did. So Ron, do you have any other favorite films this year that you saw or that you're rooting for Oscar night? Yeah, for sure.

[01:48:53] I would say that one, I would love for American fiction to get something. I could see it getting adapted screenplay. I could see Jeffrey Wright or Sterling K. Brown. Jeffrey Wright may be hard. I think. It's a tough category.

[01:49:07] Because he's in, he's for, he's for lead actor, right? Yeah, yeah. So he's up against Cillian Murphy. Yeah. Given who's in that race, that might be hard. Sterling K. Brown maybe. Sterling K. Brown, is he up against, is the movie about the mansion? Oh, Saltburn? Saltburn.

[01:49:24] Yeah, no, nobody, Saltburn didn't get nominated for any Oscars. Oh yeah, that one got totally shut out. Yeah. Yeah, that was surprising. I really liked that movie. Yeah. I was disappointed with the, the nominations that Barbie didn't get. I understand both sides.

[01:49:40] I don't think it's going to win. I would be excited if Barbie won. That was one of my favorite movies from last year. Yeah, me too. I thought it was again, another great satire. Honestly, I wasn't as excited. I liked Oppenheimer.

[01:49:53] I'm not, I wasn't as big on it as everyone else seemed to be. I'm with you. The only- I haven't seen it yet. It's on my list of things to see in the next week or so.

[01:50:03] I think the only thing left on my list to see is Maestro and Horror Thing. Although I have not been a fan of Lanthimos other work. I just- He's one of my favorite directors. I'm not on a Lanthimos train. I cannot get through Dog Tooth. That's okay.

[01:50:18] I remember my first talk about Dog Tooth was on Film Spotting way back when it came out. The way they spoke about it, I was like, wow, this must be an amazing film. I was watching it and like, what are people saying in this film?

[01:50:32] What am I missing about this film? But I'm hoping- Wait, have you watched The Favorite or The Lobster? Those are the two- I haven't seen The Lobster. I've seen most of The Favorite. Okay. It's been a while though. Most of. Most of.

[01:50:48] I don't remember if I've seen the whole thing yet. Okay. Because I'm just not- I just don't connect with- And sometimes a certain filmmaker's sensibility just doesn't connect with you. Yeah, no, that's fair. But I have a feeling that maybe Poor Things would be different.

[01:51:03] So I'm looking forward to seeing Poor Things and seeing how I respond to it. But in terms of- And I thought the performances in Anatomy of the Fall were just amazing. I wouldn't be surprised. I was disappointed that Robbie- Margot Robbie.

[01:51:23] Margot Robbie didn't get nominated, but I could understand the actress from- Sandra Huller, yeah. Yeah, Sandra Huller being nominated. She was amazing in that. But I think this is- It would be- I would love another Moonlight situation where Oppenheimer's- Would they announce the wrong one?

[01:51:45] No, not necessarily that. But where Oppenheimer's The La La Land and American- If American Fiction or Barbie won, I'd jump out of my seat. If Oppenheimer won, I'd give a polite golf clap. Yeah, yeah. I'm with you. Very cool.

[01:52:02] Roland, thanks so much for taking some time to chat with us today. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to- We're going to have you on for the True Detective season wrap up. Can't wait. I have some thoughts. Yeah, yeah. I've been-

[01:52:15] My outline keeps getting bigger and bigger. But depending on when this gets released versus when that gets released, there may be some little overlap or whatnot. But definitely find you over there.

[01:52:24] And I know you and I were chit-chatting about Mr. and Mrs. Smith because I have a suspicion- That's my TV obsession at the moment. Right. I figured as much. It was so good. The finale was phenomenal. I loved it. Yeah, yeah. So, awesome.

[01:52:37] Well, thanks again for making some time. Thank you. And we'll talk to you soon. All right. That was a lot of fun talking with Ron. I think Ron's going to be on with us for our True Detective season wrap up.

[01:52:48] And I think we're going to maybe, I might be able to get a chance to talk with him about Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Nice. Which is a really fun show. So what did you think of this outside of the interview comments? Yeah.

[01:53:00] I mean, I think we talked about there's relatively nuanced commentary on expectations based on race. And I think that they do a good job of representing that this isn't a black or white issue, ha, ha, ha. But you know, it's not.

[01:53:20] There's a spectrum of human experience and it's easy for us to forget that because it's easier to think about, put things in boxes. It's less cognitive load on our brains. And this film challenges that. And I appreciate it for that for sure.

[01:53:36] And also, yeah, there's dark humor, but it's really more of a drama, which I didn't expect going in. But like I said in the interview, Jeffrey Wright's dual performance blew me away and he's now, he's overtaken Coleman Domingo to be my favorite in the acting category. Got it.

[01:53:55] Okay. I think for a first time out to get nominated is great. And then whether it brings home anything we'll see. But yeah, it'd be great to see Jeffrey Wright. He's been such a yeoman, you know, he's just been in so many, he's just, he delivers solid

[01:54:11] performances wherever he shows up. He's really professional, a real professional and it's great to see him get a nod, you know, and to see something hopefully for him. So you can watch that one if you want to see it yourself on Video On Demand and eventually

[01:54:25] it'll land on Prime. It sounds good. All right. What is next? Another one. Congratulations. Popular number this year. This is one that I think a lot of our listeners might just be starting to hear about now. It's only, yeah. I am all, yeah, the same. Yeah.

[01:54:44] I didn't really hear about it until this. Right. Yeah. So it's called The Zone of Interest and the award for best picture would go to James Wilson, who's most famous for producing Dances with Wolves, The Bodyguard. And although it's a Jonathan Glaser production, he's the director.

[01:55:02] The plot is that we experienced the perspective of the real life Hoos family, the father of which ran Auschwitz and designed the heartbreakingly efficient gas chambers, which you see in the film. They're not used well, okay, no spoilers.

[01:55:17] Their house is, but it's, yeah, their house is separated from the camp by this high wall. And so we see the family going about their days and they're lounging in their lush gardens and paddling in the river.

[01:55:27] And we only get like the flashes of violence going on in the camp and the terror responses to it drifting over the wall in the form of background sounds. And then we see the smokestack light up at night.

[01:55:40] So one of the things that makes it so remarkable is this unique perspective where we see this family that's, they are disturbingly normal, but also showing how easy it is for people who seem normal on the surface to just turn off their empathy and justify horrific things.

[01:56:01] So yes, five nominations today. We're going to talk about the best picture, best director and best adapted screenplay. And in part two, we'll talk about international film, which is likely to win. And in part three, we'll talk about sound, which is also a strong contender for the reasons

[01:56:14] I just talked about. So David, what if anything, have you heard about this one so far? Okay. Absolutely nothing. It's been around. I have not up until, you know, your plot synopsis here and then just a quick look at IMDB.

[01:56:32] I had no idea even of the subject matter. And yeah, it seems like a confronting film. We talk a lot about the banality of evil or we have talked a lot about the banality, this

[01:56:49] idea of the banality of evil on different shows that we've been podcasting about and stuff like that. So this feels like it fits right in that sort of conversational space. And it's a movie where it seems to be one of those movies where it's an important part

[01:57:09] of our film literacy in terms of maintaining an awareness of what can happen when we check out and we don't pay attention to what's going on. And before you know it, there's a lot of evil and atrocity that is being done right

[01:57:31] just around the outside of our sightline. And if we just turn our heads a little bit. Right. Yeah. I'm biting my tongue, but there's especially this interaction between which characters are willing to look away and which are not. You know, that's a very interesting question.

[01:57:50] So yeah, this is a German language film, but it's actually a Polish collaboration with the US and UK. And it was the official UK submission to the international category. So it's one of two international films in this category, non-English language films. Right.

[01:58:08] Which is not a normal thing, right? Yeah. No, it's definitely getting more. Like I said, there's more diverse windows into other worlds, which I am very happy about. And so there's been some concerted efforts to diversify things at the Oscars. It hasn't always worked out in every category.

[01:58:26] Best director. But you're definitely seeing a lot of the results and I'm very happy about it. So yeah, it's looking at Nazis from a new angle. Definitely if you are interested in that concept, also check out the TV show, The Man in the High Castle on Prime.

[01:58:45] Theaters, it is one that's worth seeing in the theater if you're thinking about it. It is available on VOD now, but it's an experience seeing it with other people. Most theaters were completely silent, I was surprised to hear, because mine was chuckling quietly at the dark comedic elements.

[01:59:02] Like they're just some of the things they say, you're just like, what the? And it's also very notable for the way Jonathan Glazer filmed this one. I don't know if you ever saw Beneath the Skin or Birth.

[01:59:18] He likes to plonk a camera down and let the action unfold before it. And in this case, he went so far as to have hidden cameras. So people keep calling it Nazi house big brother, basically. And also, this is...

[01:59:36] Just paying Alexander Pades, he's only done four feature films over the past 24 years and they are all so different from each other. I just watched his first one last night, Sexy Beast, and it's like a Guy Ritchie film. But anyway, it's... Right.

[01:59:50] Yeah, I'm looking at the trailer a little bit here. It has a very distinctive colorized look. Very bright and sunny. And the camera moves are... Yeah, well, but there's a power to it as well. There's a scheme to it that I think is obviously an intentional emotional push.

[02:00:10] But yeah, the camera moves are all very locked and simple, which tells... Which does something to us. We're an observer. We're a fly on the wall. The way that we respond to the visual imagery. Yeah, and does that make us complicit as well? Yeah.

[02:00:26] And that's what we want from film is that the medium is part of the storytelling. The way that you tell the story technically like that. Yeah, absolutely. And I have to credit... So Sandra Huller, she's... I call her the lead actress in this.

[02:00:42] She was almost nominated for Best Supporting Actress for this because she's already nominated for lead actress in the next movie we're going to talk about after this. But for me, this is my preferred performance of the two. It's not a character that you're going to like.

[02:00:57] She plays the wife of the Commandant. Okay. But it's just such an interesting... She is such a chameleon actress. Yeah. No, that's great. Okay. Not familiar with her. Well, yeah. So she's one of the best actress nominees this year for the next film, also nominated five

[02:01:18] times, Anatomy of a Fall. So Anatomy of a Fall produced by Marie-Anne Luciani and David Theon. And the plot is it's following the life of a German woman played by Sandra Huller who has moved to her French husband's hometown and yeah, her life's torn apart when he dies

[02:01:41] unexpectedly with only their visually impaired son and their dog as potential witnesses. So the five nominations are for today. We're going to talk about Best Picture, Best Actress, Best Director for Justine Trier and Best Original Screenplay. And in part three, we'll get into editing.

[02:01:59] So have you heard much about this one yet? This isn't... Just the title, just aware of the title. And I think maybe when we first started talking about the Oscar project, I might've dipped

[02:02:15] into it a little bit to see how fast should I go out and see, should I see it and how quickly should I put it on my list? And yeah, it didn't jump out at me in that way.

[02:02:29] And I don't know that it would be something that I would go to the theater to see. I don't think you need to see it in the theater. But, I mean, it's in the top 10.

[02:02:36] It's a good movie, but I don't think you have to see it in the theater per se. And the fact that it's being nominated for Best Picture, that's got to mean something, right? So I get not disgusted.

[02:02:47] No, no, it's a genuinely riveting courtroom drama, which the mileage may vary on courtroom dramas. I'm not usually into it, but I found this one especially interesting because it sheds light on the unreliability of witness testimonies and all the heartbreaking nuance of these

[02:03:04] kinds of investigations, especially with kids involved. So it's an exploration of the messy realities of even loving relationships, which is a favorite subject of Trie, the director who has, I sense, this film, it's in the upper middle of my

[02:03:22] rankings of these 10 films, but it was enough that made me want to go out and watch all of the rest of Justine Trie's films. And now she's become one of my favorite directors.

[02:03:33] So this is actually in the middle of my ranking of her films, but yeah, she's someone who she definitely was influenced by cinema vérité. You see it especially in her early work and she really sees, she likes the messiness inside people.

[02:03:53] She has a character in an early film who says, I don't trust anyone who's too nice, 100% nice. You know? Would you put it into a whodunit category or is it more of a family drama? I mean the whodunit aspect is definitely there. Right.

[02:04:12] Is that the main kinetic energy? I would say the main thing is, so for me, one of the things that I really identified with was, so she's a German woman living in France and so when she's talking to the police and

[02:04:26] stuff, French is her third language, English is her second. So she keeps diverting to English to talk about these very serious nuanced topics and they keep, you know, they're like, en français s'il vous plaît.

[02:04:38] And I feel for her so much, you know, that you're struggling, you're trying to defend yourself, you're trying to explain your entire life, stuff that wouldn't otherwise be part of anybody's business in your third language. Right. Yeah. Right.

[02:04:57] And a language which has nuance and shades of meanings and things like that. So as all languages do, but yeah, you know, with French definitely. Yeah. So this one, yeah, this one's half in English. So it does make it accessible to a wider audience.

[02:05:11] It's I have to say the prosecuting lawyer is one of the most punchable villains of the year and, but the real star of the marketing campaign is Messi the dog. So he's been showing up at luncheons and stuff and he could actually do a lot of good

[02:05:27] for this film's chances. Yeah. Fair enough. And yeah, if you want to see it yourself, it's out on video on demand, which brings us to one of my top two probably tied for first films of the year. I may have mentioned it once or twice before.

[02:05:45] It's a little film with a lot of heart, Past Lives. So it's produced by David Hinujasa, Christine Vachon and Pamela Koffler. And it's about, it follows the life of a woman who moved from Korea to Canada as a girl and

[02:06:03] then later to New York city and especially where her life intersects with the two most significant men in it. And it's only got two nominations, deserves all the nominations. So we'll talk about both today, Best Picture and Best Original Screenplay.

[02:06:21] So yeah, I mean this just about everyone I've spoken to feels passionately about it. Of course not everyone, you know, some people are going to connect to it more. But it's really, it's about a woman living between two worlds and she loves both worlds.

[02:06:36] She's loved by both, but is also never fully part of either. So that's really rung a bell. A lot of people who live, you know, live their lives that same way. It'll definitely connect with you and fill you with cleansing tears as you experience

[02:06:50] how beautiful different kinds of love can be. But it's not really sad as much as it is cathartic and like just beautifully human. So it's an American film but half in Korean. So yeah, love the increasing representation of Korean American film at the Oscars.

[02:07:09] So pouring one out for Minari with Steven Yeun who should have won international in 2021. And I know someone else who feels the same way is Paulo of the Death Racers podcast. All right, let's listen to Paulo. Hey Alicia, hey Haute L'Oréal listeners.

[02:07:28] My name is Paulo and I'm the host of the Oscars Death Race podcast, the show where I try to watch all the Oscar nominees or die trying. This is my fifth year doing the Oscars Death Race and I'm here to talk about past lives

[02:07:39] and why this is arguably the best film of the year for me. Mild spoilers for the film ahead. So first off, looking at the film on just its own merits. For a feature directorial debut, Selene Song knocks out of the park.

[02:07:51] As is typical for first time indie films, it's relatively small in scope and relatively intimate. There really are only three characters with the bulk of the so-called drama being an exploration of their inner emotions and feelings and how they relate to each other over time.

[02:08:06] It was pitched to me as though it was a K-drama but with more Western sensibilities, which by the way is how I was able to convince my wife, an avid consumer of all things Korean, to watch it with me.

[02:08:16] However, rather than leaning into a potentially tropey space of melodrama with a former love coming to quote unquote rescue the female main character from her current partner, it instead explores the ideas of what could have been without devaluing the real lived experience that its characters are going through.

[02:08:35] There is so much depth to explore in that concept alone, and Selene Song does so much with so little in her screenplay to really convey that question and raise that question within the audience that it's a sight to behold.

[02:08:46] For me specifically as an Asian American, Past Lives really takes on a whole other level of meaning as an exploration of what it means to be what I call a third culture kid. Someone not quite in one culture, not quite in another, but somewhere in between.

[02:08:59] As a second generation son of immigrants from the Philippines who also spent some number of years living in Manila, I felt that I've always had one foot both in American culture and also in Filipino culture.

[02:09:10] Obviously there's historical overlap there, but also a lot of cases where I always feel like I'm the outside looking in and can't really take a side. For example, the scene where Greta Lee describes Tae Oh Yoo's character as just so Korean,

[02:09:24] but she doesn't quite have the words to elaborate on what exactly that means is something that I've felt before. Obviously that mirrors how shortly after, John Magaro's character tells Greta's character that he catches her sleep talking in Korean and he knows that there's a part of her that

[02:09:40] he's never really going to fully understand. That's just one specific moment where even though it's framed through the lens of the Asian American experience and the immigrant experience, it can also be relatable I think

[02:09:51] to anyone who's not Asian who's had that feeling of being out of the loop with a partner and kind of knowing that there's part of you that I'll never fully know but you can still make the choice to be with that partner.

[02:10:02] You know I started The Death Race 5 years ago when I wanted to watch all the other films to make sure that Parasite really was deserving of being Best Picture winner. Since then we've had films like Minari and Everything Ever All at Once carry on that

[02:10:14] banner of Asian and Asian American representation at the highest level of recognition within the film industry, something that's only exploded since Crazy Rich Asians. And you know I'm pleased to see that Past Life carries on that torch this year alongside films like Godzilla Minus One and Perfect Days.

[02:10:30] While the odds for it to win Best Picture aren't the best and you know it has a tough race behind holdovers and an abyss of fall for original screenplay, for me it absolutely

[02:10:39] is one of the defining films of 2023 and definitely worth seeing both for the first time if you've never seen it before and for yet another time if you already have. Have we convinced you to watch it? Thanks Paulo. Yes absolutely this is going way up on my list.

[02:10:54] I'm definitely going to talk to my spouse and try to get this into our rotation. We just finished Monsieur Spade on AMC and that was a lot of fun and so we've got a little gap I think I can get this one in there really quick.

[02:11:11] Did you see Pachinko on Apple TV a couple years ago? Would you put it in that vibe category of that a little bit? Yeah I mean this is more modern but it is wistful in that way. It's wistful yeah.

[02:11:27] But it's Pachinko, I guess did I cry during Pachinko? I don't know but this one like. I never cried during Pachinko but I was constantly on the verge of feeling it.

[02:11:37] I would put it in the same way and of course Pachinko is also it's a Korean Japanese perspective in that case so it is about you know the Korean experience elsewhere but a different complicated relationship anyway.

[02:11:50] But yeah I just to quote myself on Twitter like I just so I the first time right after I saw it I said it filled my heart until it cracked and memories spilled out and then

[02:12:02] four months later I posted sometimes I'm just sitting there trying to do admin or whatever and I think about the movie past lives and it fills my heart with love and ache and my eyes with warm tears and then normal life resumes.

[02:12:14] So obviously this film left I mean I don't want to oversell it because nobody's ever going to always respond to a film in the same way but this for me and many others is a really meaningful film.

[02:12:28] When we look at the lineup of all the films that we have here there are some serious films that are really examining the human experience to just you know give it a broadest category

[02:12:40] but killers looks at things poor things American fiction past lives Barbie all of this stuff are very cutting examinations you know that that peer into they you know these other films that I have not seen yet right sounds like they're just peering into our souls and that's

[02:12:58] I don't know I kind of feel good about this year's Oscars and in that regard for the top ten it's not a lot of the every single film seems like it's saying something and it's trying to move. We're all worthy nominees even Oppenheimer.

[02:13:12] Right very cool yeah past lives is going up there because I definitely am in for that vibe that kind of vibe of a movie and I do really appreciate a lot of what's coming out

[02:13:25] of out of Korea in terms of entertainment I've got some Train to Busan was amazing the kingdom it was those are two zombie related ones. Korean horror is just jealous. There are others but yeah absolutely so it's really awesome to see like a best picture

[02:13:43] I mean I mean of course a bunch of those parasite one for a few years ago but I do think that that it's Travis see this wasn't nominated for directing for Celine song and acting for

[02:13:55] Greta Lee tale you and John McGarrow and I thought it was also one of the low key best uses of sound in film this year so I would have liked to see in that category but yeah

[02:14:06] that's not going to win best picture probably not this could be a dark horse just because of the sentimental attachment many people have to it but I wanted to win best original screenplay or we riot and yeah whereas fiction is a best adapted right right so they're not

[02:14:24] up against each other right but you can see it yourself on video on demand and that was the last of their top 10 I do have yeah that's a lot there's some really it's a strong strong

[02:14:41] you have anyone you're rooting for I can definitely um no well it's it's hard to say I don't think American fiction rises to the level of a best I think I would guess that

[02:14:56] it's gonna be I would pull for Barbie or Oppenheimer probably and again I haven't seen Oppenheimer yet but from it's pretty solid across the board so yeah I don't know those

[02:15:08] those two feel like a good you know a Barbenheimer Oscars would seem to make sense yeah and I just have to shout out some other great movies you might want to check out that's just missed the

[02:15:19] boat but would have been worthy nominees also salt burn May December which did get at least one nomination all of us strangers spider-verse which of course was nominated in animation and

[02:15:31] I know others would say the color purple the iron claw which I haven't gotten to see yet origin same and air the Nike story one so those are all it's been a good year for film yeah yeah feels like

[02:15:44] we're back feels like film is back all right cool well let's take a little break and then when we come back we can talk about some of the other headliner awards this summer we enter a new era

[02:16:08] of Star Wars you mean the dawn of the Star Wars canon timeline podcast yeah yeah sure that too but I was obviously talking about the accolade we've got to cover that on the lore hounds oh

[02:16:18] but the Star Wars canon timeline podcast is exactly at that point in the timeline the end of the High Republic 100 years before the prequel trilogy we've got to cover it there why not both okay

[02:16:32] deal it's the first live-action Star War outside the Skywalker saga nobody can miss this listeners kick off your hot lore summer weekends with scene by scene breakdowns of the acolyte found in both

[02:16:45] the Star Wars canon timeline podcast and the lore hounds mother feed and the lore hounds Star Wars feed wherever you like to listen a couple of days after each new episode is released and we are back

[02:17:15] all right Alicia let's talk about some of the other headliner awards I think we want to start off with the acting prizes you want to walk us through this everybody's favorite so yeah it's yeah

[02:17:29] best picture and then the best actors right yeah this is what we care about but we'll give you reasons to care about the others later okay for now let's get it acting so let's start with the

[02:17:40] best performance by an actor in a leading role and the nominees are Bradley Cooper as Leonard Bernstein in maestro Coleman Domingo as Bayard Rustin in Rustin Paul Giamatti as the fictional Paul Hunnam in the holdovers Cillian Murphy as J Robert Oppenheimer in Oppenheimer and Jeffrey

[02:17:58] Wright as fictional character Thelonious Monk Ellison aka Stag Arlie in American fiction so yeah the only yeah go for it the only movie that we haven't talked about yet so the only one that's

[02:18:14] not a best picture nominee is Rustin right which is what I was gonna ask about yeah I know nothing about this film like I know that it's a I know there's a title there's a movie called Rustin

[02:18:23] out there right on Netflix so easy to watch if you want and this is the only thing that was nominated for it was directed by George C. Wolfe from a screenplay by Julian Grease and Dustin

[02:18:34] Lentz Black and it's about Bayard Rustin who was he was one of the most important civil rights organizers in the movement he's one of the main people who was behind figures like Martin Luther

[02:18:47] King jr. but he was repeatedly pushed out of the movement and his legacy was all but erased because he was gay okay he was also a Quaker with past ties to communism but it's mostly the gay

[02:18:58] thing that's caused trouble for him in the 60s because he lived out and openly you know he was like I'm gonna live my life and this is the story of how he made his greatest achievement

[02:19:10] which is the 1963 million man March on Washington how he made it happen so yeah I have to full he grew up in my hometown which is not at all addressed in this movie but okay I know

[02:19:23] we have a high school named after it I'm like go rest and go does this sound up your alley at all yeah Coleman Domingo's great and again it's a history that you know uncovering or bringing

[02:19:36] history forward that we that is there that we don't have access to normally and yeah I've never I know nothing about yeah most don't I wouldn't if I wouldn't if he weren't from my hometown you

[02:19:51] know it's not someone who gets talked about but yeah Coleman Domingo he dissolves into the role so before I switched allegiances to Jeffrey Wright Coleman Domingo was my pick for this category it's just like everything from the voice to the mannerisms and it's especially interesting

[02:20:05] because we can contrast it with he's Coleman Domingo was also in the color purple and played a very different character there so it shows how diverse he is if the Kang rumors end up coming

[02:20:15] true interesting so this is a tough category again I haven't seen Rauppenheimer so but I can see Killian Murphy you know bringing it forward yeah I don't know that Giamatti's is gonna

[02:20:32] right again I haven't seen that one either but I don't know that that's gonna rise high enough up I mean yeah it's it's a tough one um so just sorry I just have to give a just a little more love to

[02:20:43] rest in okay so I just have to say that it's if you are interested in watching it it's like jaunty and high-energy I find it to be but I have to also quote NS ricing from the aodr discord the

[02:20:55] Academy of Death Racers discord he says as someone who used to work in nonprofit logistics I loved that movie for being so hyper specific in details for the March lol like yes babe you picked those

[02:21:07] right sandwiches and it was great it shows you how much goes into it and why they needed a man like him even though they found his lifestyle distasteful got it yeah and also fun fact best

[02:21:20] supporting actress lead fave divine joy Randolph also shows up as Mahalia Jackson and sings like the woman can sing worth checking out for that but yeah okay tough category a lot of biopic love

[02:21:34] here yeah could be anybody's game but if you're placing bets Killian Murphy is your safest bet right no Leonardo DiCaprio but he's been himself loudly camp campaigning for Lily Gladstone instead

[02:21:48] and very Kogan for salt burn and just got for all of us strangers Zac Efron for the ironclaw are also the super strong potentially considered snubs for this category this year okay all right turning

[02:22:03] our attention to the actresses the nominees are Annette Bening as Diana Nyad and Nyad Lily Gladstone as Molly Burkhardt and killers of the flower moon Sandra Huller as fictional character Sandra Voighter in Anatomy of a Fall Carrie Mulligan as Felicia Montalegre and maestro and Emma Stone as the

[02:22:24] fictional Bella Baxter in poor things okay and you know anything about Nyad nothing again another one I know another biopic okay yeah just a lot of biopic stuff a lot of biopic love this year yeah

[02:22:39] so this one's directed by Elizabeth Chai Vassar Haley and Jimmy Chin and their fiction feature film director directorial debut and it was written by Julia Cox based on the 2015 memoir find a way

[02:22:56] and it has two nominations this and supporting actress for Jodie Foster you can watch it on Netflix if you're curious it's a biopic following Diana Nyad as she makes multiple attempts to swim

[02:23:07] from Cuba to Florida the final one in her 60s with the help of her best friend Bonnie and others and I agree with who was saying that Danny I agree I did not enjoy this film I think Jodie

[02:23:22] Foster did a good job I know a lot of people are happy with Bennett Benning's performance someone pointed out the physicality of it with the swimming and everything but I didn't like her performance and there's a lot of controversy about this person because over she made a lot

[02:23:38] of anti-trans statements but also she has a history of potentially lying like you can find websites online where people break down stories she's told over and over and why they can't possibly be true like lying about having met survivors of concentration camps things like

[02:23:54] that so I didn't know this stuff so after watching but it adds to my distaste of the film okay but a lot of people think it's really inspiring and uplifting so okay yeah but yeah the race is

[02:24:05] basically between Lily Gladstone and Emma Stone the first would be a historic win the first the first Native American woman nominated for this category so it would also be the first winner

[02:24:17] but I'm my picks Emma Stone because she knows she has to do these performance with a lot of unusual choices playing a baby brain in an adult body and then we write to evolve over the course of

[02:24:28] the film into an entirely new character I think she really knocked out the part right whereas Lily Gladstone's character sort of is on a slow yeah in induced demise right like you know not not

[02:24:43] something of her not having agency in it actually having her agency taken away and slowly being poisoned exactly so but yes she was a I think in killers of fire moon Lily Gladstone is a she just

[02:24:58] occupies a kind of space whenever she comes on screen you you're right you're aware of her presence on screen her face is captivating I watched another film the unknown country that she was a producer in it's kind of like a documentary loose narrative hybrid and it's

[02:25:16] it's a very slow film with beautiful you know driving it's about her taking a road trip through the West but it's her face is just captivating she just has such a presence yeah cool right on

[02:25:30] okay yeah but yeah I'm always gonna choose the stories about women who reinvent themselves over the stories about narrowly drawn wives of course the biggest snubs in this category Margot Robbie and also Greta Lee for past lives Fantasia Burano for the color purple and Natalie Portman

[02:25:47] for May December and yeah this could have been Sandra Huller this she could have been in this category too for the zone of interest so we haven't really talked about the Margot Robbie issue

[02:25:59] whereas Ryan Gosling was given a supporting role nomination and what's happened in the movie is happening in real life where the men are getting centered more than the women you know even though and so it's it's frustrating and head-scratching when you look at that performance and you look

[02:26:26] at that movie to not get a best actor yeah nomination is is a it's a real head-scratcher yeah I mean I guess the argument is that it's a strong year which is true but of course I

[02:26:39] obviously would much rather see her in here than Annette Bening no nothing against Annette Bening I like her in general did not enjoy her in this film right but yeah it's I mean I think it's I'm

[02:26:52] glad that Ryan Gosling got the nomination I think that he is very memorable and he's you know his character has his own complex stories to portray about what it's like to grow up in a man as a man

[02:27:06] with certain expectations when all you want to do is have more horses I think he deserved his nom but I think it's a real travesty that Margot Robbie isn't on this list because yeah such a

[02:27:21] beautiful performance it would be interesting because we don't ever get the data behind the voting right we only get the nomination so did she fall short just slightly was it a must have been

[02:27:31] yeah she had to have been very close so that's just it's it's disappointing but it highlights it goes right to some of the issues that Barbie is actually talking about so we'll see as we're

[02:27:43] recording the SAG awards are tonight so we'll see how she does if she gets recognition there okay but yeah so someone who actually Shane from our discord server he he sent in a voicemail about

[02:28:00] international films but he also had a lot to say about this category in particular so I chopped off the beginning of his voicemail for us to listen to today and we'll listen to the rest next episode

[02:28:10] when we talk about international films sounds good here's Shane hey David and Alicia Shane here what an honor to be called in to talk about kind of this Oscar race we have going on here great

[02:28:24] year I think the Oscars did it pretty well this year a few snubs of course but I think they did a pretty good job I think a few of the obvious snubs Greta Lee for Greta Lee Celine song Natalie

[02:28:35] Portman Greta Gerwig Margot Robbie I mean I don't know how you nominate Barbie and Gosling and not Margot Robbie that was kind of wild as I'm a big past lives fan huge in the past lives everyone

[02:28:49] should see past lives amazing movie who do I think is gonna win though it's gonna be an Oppenheimer sweep I think they're gonna win most of the awards probably almost all the ones they've been

[02:28:58] nominated for I really do think the closest race here to watch and kind of the only true race here to watch is between Lily Gladstone and Emma Stone the race of the stones I mean who's I would love

[02:29:12] to see Lily Gladstone win first indigenous person to win it would be a monumental win and it she just she deserves it it's just Emma Stone just gives a career performance in poor things I mean

[02:29:23] poor things is my number two film of the year I Emma Stone is unbelievable in that movie so if she does beat Lily Gladstone I will not be upset and vice versa if Lily Gladstone wins I'll not

[02:29:36] be upset either cuz that also well-deserved I think that's the closest race though to watch so yeah and then next time yeah Emma Stone is a force isn't she I really remember her performance

[02:29:52] in La La Land and that being so this is so much more than that yeah sure for sure but I just thinking back to La La Land the whole thing with the being a coffee server one yeah sorry a lot of people

[02:30:05] think she should not have won for that sure yeah fair enough but I just think of the the inversion of going from sort of a new name to suddenly being right a named person and that certain this this is

[02:30:17] cementing just more of that kinetic energy in her career and propelling forward and she's become like Yorgos Lanthimos is muse so interesting she was also in the favorite she's been in a short

[02:30:31] film of his she's gonna be there's gonna be kind of kindness or something to that effect coming out next it's gonna be three interwoven stories and she's gonna be in that as well and okay I think

[02:30:42] they're even another one they're working on together so I love this collaboration yeah very cool okay so moving on to a best actress in a supporting role the nominees are Emily Blunt as Catherine Oppenheimer and Oppenheimer Danielle Brooks as Sophia and the color purple America

[02:31:00] Ferreira as a Gloria in Barbie Jodie Foster as Bonnie Stoll in Nyad and Davine Joy Randolph as Mary Lamb in The Holdovers so this is the only nod that the color purple got which was once

[02:31:13] considered a likely best picture nominee so this is the film so there was the 1982 Alice Walker novel that was turned into a 1985 film and then a 2005 musical which has now been adapted into this on-screen musical directed by Blitz Buzz Zalaway and screenplay by Marcus Gardley you can

[02:31:33] watch it yourself on HBO Max or video on demand so David did you watch the 85 film or you've how familiar are you with the story it was definitely in my realm of experience as a Gen Xer and I

[02:31:49] remember it dominating the popular culture and I to be honest I can't remember if I've actually seen it or not because it's just part of that blur of the mid 80s but it was certainly part and partial

[02:32:02] of my of my growing up and so when it came when I saw it as a you know a title I was confused I didn't again it was not something that broke through news wise so I didn't understand what it

[02:32:16] was what that name was doing out in in circulation again so yeah so for anyone who doesn't know what it's about the story is that it's about two sisters who escape from sexual abuse at home only

[02:32:29] to land in a household where they receive more abuse and one goes missing for decades and the other slowly painstakingly builds her own life with the help of a couple other strong women who

[02:32:39] fall into her orbit so this musical version it's a lighter take with a it's a fantastic a grossing story overall but this one it's yeah about like the depths of human ugliness and the heights of

[02:32:52] redemption I prefer the 80 not 85 film just because it goes deeper into character and plot development but this is a really nice compliment to that you know because they end up they end up stripping

[02:33:04] back some of the scenes so they can add the musical numbers you know that sort of thing so some people will find this probably an easier watch but it doesn't go as deep okay

[02:33:14] and yeah definitely Danielle Brooks if anyone deserves a nod it's it's her she's she's playing the role that Oprah played in the original and Oprah's a producer on this right it's a meaty role and it's a character who goes through like something big that changes her personality

[02:33:29] but it's funny Danielle Brooks she played this role on stage but she still had to jump through so many hoops to get this part on screen interesting okay yeah and yeah Fantasia Brino was also perfect in the role played by Whoopi Goldberg who shows up as a cameo

[02:33:43] and she played the role in Broadway as well and Coleman Domingo as I said shows up as the villain and we also get Taraji P. Henson and Halle Bailey sorry not Barry the little mermaid one

[02:33:55] and a great costume and production design and music so cool okay so yeah finally a category with mostly fictional characters this one is definitely Randolph's to lose she's just been like sweeping the awards so far most people call her the best part of the pullovers but she's just

[02:34:13] yeah just a lot of love for her this season and I don't think I'm familiar with her her work yet so yeah I think I need to to check into it a little bit more check into her a little bit more

[02:34:27] another reason to watch the holdovers exactly and that's exactly what I was thinking um yeah as I said I was rooting for Blunt coming out of Oppenheimer so she's another strong contender and as far as the America Ferreira backlash she did more than one speech in that

[02:34:42] film come on oh she was the um in only murders in the building okay no I do recognize her yeah okay okay yeah right she was that's right the detective yeah she was the detective

[02:34:54] cool um yeah and the the big stubs in this category were Julianne Moore for May December Sandra Hoeller for uh you know she almost got double nominated this year with Stone of Interest and Rosamund Pike shout out to Twitter of Time she was in Saltburn

[02:35:08] what was she in? Saltburn oh Saltburn okay yeah that that film got a lot of a lot of buzz it's it's another one that's going to divide opinions because of some certain graphic scenes I fall on the side of loving it got it um okay so switching over

[02:35:26] to the actor side of supporting uh the nominees are Sterling K. Brown in American Fiction, Robert De Niro in Killers of the Flower Moon, Robert Downey Jr. in Oppenheimer, Ryan Gosling in Barbie and Mark Ruffalo in Poor Things do you have any strong feelings

[02:35:40] about this category? Well it's hard because I've only seen uh well I've seen three of the of the five here so Poor Things and Oppenheimer yeah so not too bad I don't I can't remember

[02:35:54] people talking a lot about Robert Downey Jr. they say that he's in it but like I haven't heard buzz whereas Ruffalo is definitely a key cornerstone for Poor Things from you know the secondary media

[02:36:07] well Robert Downey Jr. like I said the central relationship ends up in Oppenheimer ends up being between him and Cillian Murphy okay so he is probably the favorite to win got it I'm rooting

[02:36:18] for Ryan Gosling or Mark Ruffalo because I think I appreciate a good comedic performance if you can sell you know especially in Ryan Gosling's case if you can sell like the heart and the comedy

[02:36:30] that for me should win you an Oscar and I am tired of people looking down on comedy fair enough I would trend towards Sterling K Brown not as a yeah fair predictor of winning

[02:36:42] but of where I'm of the films that I've seen the performance that I enjoyed the most I would say that Sterling K Brown's performance was really great and he was playing the character he was

[02:36:58] playing I just appreciated the against type stuff that he was doing right as a gay man doctor and the way that he was playing that character and within this confines or in the structures

[02:37:15] of the family really it you know when you learn that you're like oh oh oh you know like yeah just his performance was I don't know how to explain it he just he just landed that role so

[02:37:33] well and he had so much energy and he's a great actor just really really good yeah did you did you used to watch This Is Us I don't think I did okay that's I mean that's what I know him from I

[02:37:45] watched I didn't watch the entire show but I watched like the first I don't know however many seasons until I was like I just can't take the depression anymore right okay was that the one

[02:37:53] about the British family no no it's an American family with three three kids same age and it's about oh I remember yeah yeah yeah I didn't watch it I have to say for both DiCaprio and De Niro

[02:38:10] in Killers of the Flower Moon I could never get past that it was them it was them acting yeah I was watching De Niro acting I wasn't watching the the character that he was inhabiting it was the

[02:38:22] and I don't know if that's a me thing but that that's where I was at with it yeah no I agree I agree um and a lot of people are upset that Ruffalo was nominated for Poor Things and Willem Dafoe was

[02:38:32] not uh for I mean what was the poor things oh okay he plays and so Mark Ruffalo is more the comedic role and Willem Dafoe is more like the he's the father figure in there so it's more of a

[02:38:45] role with heart I am personally and I know others are even more upset about the Charles Melton snub he played the third lead along with Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman in May December

[02:38:58] and he just so like I knew him before that from Riverdale you know this silly comic book tv show and use this is like this transformative just detailed nuance impressively lived in performance

[02:39:13] as this introverted man who was once known as the 13 year old seduced by a much older woman so yeah if you haven't seen May December watch it immediately after this for me this was tied with the Barbie woman is the most upsetting snub of the season though

[02:39:29] others are upset about Paul Mescal which he gave an amazing performance in all of the strangers and Dominic Sessa um as the third part the only one of the three core characters in the holdovers

[02:39:39] who wasn't nominated okay got it all right uh directing yeah so strong list of directors this year the nominees are Justine Trier for Anatomy of a Fall Martin Scorsese for Killers of the Flower Moon Christopher Nolan for Oppenheimer Yorgos Lanthimos for Poor Things and Jonathan

[02:39:59] Glazer for The Zone of Interest yeah all all best picture noms so that's uh pretty that it's telling you something about all of those or at least what the appetites of the academy are especially

[02:40:11] considering um i mean i think actually most of the list is not american which it just shows that yeah things are getting a lot more international too right although i was so annoyed by the narrative

[02:40:22] that only like people were talking about before the nominations well only one woman's going to be nominated because there are three strong contenders there was Justine Trier there was Greta Gerwig and there was Celine Song for Past Lives and i was i think they were all very worthy

[02:40:36] and then those people were correct only one got nominated right um yeah and i just i i can't i can't go with Killers of the Flower Moon it just wasn't um a knockout hit for me in that i would

[02:40:50] replace him with one of those other two women yeah yeah so um it's probably going to be Christopher Nolan he hasn't yet gotten his directing Oscar Oscar and so like people feel like that's owed

[02:41:02] i think if anyone's going to be a contender against him it's going to be Yorgos Lanthimos um yeah Trier is the freshest face here she's just happy to be nominated right um it does feel

[02:41:14] like the Oppenheimer train though is going to run over everybody on this it's it's looking that way it's looking that way yeah cool should we uh skip on to writing yeah uh so best adapted screenplay

[02:41:27] the nominees are American Fiction written for the screen by Cord Jefferson Barbie written by Greta Gerwig and Noah Bombach Oppenheimer written for the screen by Christopher Nolan Poor Things screenplay by Tony McNamara and The Zone of Interest written by Jonathan Glaser and

[02:41:42] so yeah these are again all best picture noms uh three of the big four are here and these are probably the biggest contenders for the for the prize except American Fiction got that uh surprise

[02:41:53] BAFTA win so that's putting that more in the conversation again what uh what did it pick up for best adapted screenplay this oh okay all right right right right okay cool and yeah so

[02:42:04] the snub in this category is Killers of the Flower Moon because not everyone thinks it adapted the book well you know with the paring down of the FBI intrigue like I talked to my father I kept

[02:42:15] hearing yeah the you know the FBI's and then I was kind of waiting for that as I was getting through the middle and then when we got there I was like what it's just a bunch of people doing some

[02:42:25] investigation stuff and then that's it right it doesn't yeah you don't really get any insights into the FBI itself it's already a three and a half hour film and then just like at the end

[02:42:35] Jesse Plemons John Lithgow and Brendan Fraser just show up for glorified cameos like what oh hi you gotta wonder because I know he reworked the film to give more Native American representations

[02:42:47] and maybe that end up pushing out some of the FBI story right but still for if you got three and a half hours you got a lot of storytelling time so yeah yeah so yeah as I said before though

[02:42:57] my pick is four things um the only controversy about that one really is that it was the movie was set in London not Scotland and Glasgow like the book which is this is like an important Scottish

[02:43:08] writer to Scottish identity I'm guessing because they didn't want to force Emma Stone and the others to try to do a bad Scottish accent that's my best guess but yeah that's wise I understand why

[02:43:21] people would be upset about that yeah but yeah this is Gerwig's only path to an Oscar so will that sway voters her way like what do you think about Barbie in other awards ceremonies this year

[02:43:33] Barbie is best original screenplay here it's best adapted screenplay they say because it's based on the line of dolls what do you think about that's weird I don't that doesn't make sense to me the

[02:43:46] screenplay it's not the intellectual property rights that are signed over so yeah I would think adapted screenplay is like a book or a play or something else it's adapted from something it's

[02:43:58] not yeah the story is original here yeah exactly it's a very original story um and then that puts it up against you know something like American fiction which is a real heart and soul but the

[02:44:10] other but the original screenplay categories may be even stronger so I don't know right okay should we talk about those now yeah sure yeah I just have to shout out all of us strangers

[02:44:20] and spider versus two other snubs and adapted okay but an original screenplay the nominees are Anatomy of a Fall screenplay by Justine Trier and Arthur Harari and The Holdovers written by David Hemmingson Maestro written by Bradley Cooper and Josh Singer May December screenplay by Sammy

[02:44:37] Birch story by Sammy Birch and Alex Machenik and Past Lives written by Celine Song May December's one that we didn't really talk about in the previous lineup have you heard I mean I

[02:44:50] gave a little bit of a rundown but it's basically it's on Netflix about so Natalie Portman plays an actress preparing for a biopic role by getting to know the woman she'll be portraying played by

[02:45:01] Julianne Moore who is a woman infamous for seducing a 13 year old boy as an adult and having their first child together in jail but that couple's still together 26 years later where this picks up and so Natalie Portman's getting to know the whole family for better or worse

[02:45:17] wow okay yeah I don't know that I would run out to see this one fair enough but it's it's it's done in such an interesting way it was directed by Todd Haynes who's best known for like Carol Far

[02:45:30] from Heaven I'm Not There it's the writing was strong but I think the acting was even stronger but it's it really gives it's it's this you know up close look at the the you know what makes

[02:45:43] humans humans it's very original characters who complex people brings all that complexity but also it's delivered in this way like the way they do the music and stuff they make it so dramatic like that there's that hot dog meme because they have dramatic music like

[02:45:57] we might run out of hot dogs when there's a whole uh grill full of them and the music goes really so go ahead paparazzi like no it's almost comical well Mary Kay Letourneau was definitely

[02:46:10] was a news figure in my day so I remember all of that happening so it's interesting that it it is being picked up the story pick up again and that they're still together that is pretty

[02:46:21] extraordinary so yeah yeah um but yeah in the category overall I have a question if Barbie is adapted for being based on a line of dolls how is any biopic based on the lives of real people not

[02:46:35] like Maestro very good or or even with May December right that's uh yeah well yeah it doesn't make sense but I mean again you know what are you what are you building off of right right and and if

[02:46:46] it's a book or something else that exists yeah yeah that's clear I don't know that's a real head scratcher yeah I don't know how Maestro got here if Barbie isn't but anyway yeah my my picks

[02:46:57] obviously past lives followed by May December but Holdovers and Anatomy are probably the strongest contenders in this category okay and Like Girl Wig This Is Celine songs only shot at an Oscar since she didn't get the directing nom right would have liked to have seen Saltburn here and

[02:47:11] I know other people would have liked to see an Air and Ironclaw yeah I can't I boy I barely remember Air I remember Air coming out but like that yeah it seemed like it didn't leave as much an impression

[02:47:23] on me no and it seems so long ago so yeah yeah well so that was our those were the headliner prizes any final thoughts any new insights or shifts in perspective um no it just feels like the the

[02:47:38] Barbie Oppenheimer killers sort of uh tri uh triad here is quad yeah is really gonna push forward past lives has definitely got to go up high on my get in and watch it that and Oppenheimer I've

[02:47:54] got to sort of prioritize maybe before they uh before the Oscars um but yeah no I think it's good sneak in and win it all yeah it's true I I think the best pictures that feels like a solid

[02:48:08] running and uh it's really great and uh yeah like we were saying before it feels like movies are are finding a footing again post-pandemic footing so yeah especially with streaming wars and I can't help but think being a you know primarily uh television you know that's our

[02:48:26] central focus with the lorehounds podcasts is is where that's our core area and the difference between television and movies I think with the streaming stuff sorting itself out and what is prestige television and then the fact that big name actors from movies and television are moving

[02:48:46] back and forth between the the two worlds but somehow a movie that what highlights uh the difference between a movie and a television show is becoming clearer to me in some ways because at

[02:49:00] some point it was like well why don't you just make this movie or why isn't this tv show but the movie is a really distinctive art form that has a long tradition and history and to put

[02:49:13] something in an hour and a half to two hour movie versus a 10 episode television show or however many episodes you have it's a very different kind of construct and so the storytelling and the craft

[02:49:24] of the storytelling is really important and um it it feels like we're I'm feeling like I'm uh reinvigorated by that distinction by seeing that these works of art are really profound that the the movie story the movie the storytelling in a movie is a valid model that's

[02:49:48] not going away anytime soon it's not going to get eaten by streaming television you know uh and so it's great it's it's really great to see uh so much creativity on the screen yeah absolutely

[02:50:00] absolutely and actually so that's uh next time we're going to be talking about what I consider some of the most creative categories what I'm calling the hidden gem categories okay um so these are always when we death race these are my favorite categories because these are the films

[02:50:15] that I wouldn't otherwise watch but end up showing me the most new things because you know the best picture nominees the um we're going to talk about what we're calling the blockbuster

[02:50:23] nominees at the end these are the movies that I'm watching the entire year anyway right right and yeah so next time we're going to be talking about animated well of course I'm watching those anyway

[02:50:33] but for the rest international documentary and shorts very cool and then we'll wrap up uh in our final third installment about talking about cinematography costumes music etc etc okay well

[02:50:47] we got a lot of recording and editing to get these podcasts out ahead of time we got we got behind the ball a little bit so well the uh the the next two are are definitely shorter episodes

[02:50:57] this is the big mama right this is the big one setting the stage all right well let's uh let's wrap it up here uh I'll just make a couple of quick notes if you're interested in supporting

[02:51:06] the community because it's not just john and I we do this as uh on the side we actually have a community of podcasters like Alicia like Jean like uh Brandon and Marilyn and Anthony and so for

[02:51:20] the discord and all the different things that we need all the apparatus that we need to support that your patreon support goes to supporting that infrastructure so thank you if you are a current subscriber and if you're interested in supporting the community maybe check us out consider an

[02:51:35] annual subscription too it's a pretty good value it we give a nice discount on those as well mention to the discord again we have a really fun and active community we've got some great

[02:51:45] server boosters we've got a great little mod team channels for all the different programs that we're covering and projects that we're doing so it's a lot of fun if you want to nerd out and chat with

[02:51:56] people and that's even stuff you're not covering yes exactly and that's open to everyone regardless of whether you're a subscriber or not we do sponsor a couple of uh other podcasts uh Alicia you have

[02:52:07] a podcast as well we'll shift dust I know you didn't plan for this no I had some early year uh yeah you know life and health get in the way I lost my hearing for a while uh so got gotten that

[02:52:21] back up for a large part so gonna be kicking back off with dune coverage trailing the dune film okay we're still doing the full deep dive all right very good that'll add some stuff and and good

[02:52:32] good initial reviews so hopefully that will uh bring some bring some attention to that uh Anthony over on the properly Howard movie review Anthony and Steve uh they're on a little break right now

[02:52:43] Anthony's busy with again real life things we're juggling between our lives and our passions and we're also waiting for severance but the hopes of severance coming out in 2024 are getting dimmer

[02:52:54] and dimmer so we may not end up with that until 2025 we'll see but when that does come out the four of us Steve Anthony John and I are all gonna cover that week to week so stay tuned in terms of

[02:53:07] lorehounds we just wrapped up on true detective and I will mention Shogun we're going to do full coverage on Shogun and we've got a feedback email set up for that and we'll have a channel on the

[02:53:18] discord that is looking really good I think the only other thing I'll maybe mention is Masters of the Air we'll do an end cap on that so we did an opener and an ender on it oh we got dates for

[02:53:28] the Alkalite and the boys as well right both of those are going to be June and overlapping so I just hope that House of the Dragon doesn't come out at the same time otherwise we're going to

[02:53:38] really be really be suffering it's gonna be the quadruple blessing stuff oh my I don't know I don't know how we're going to do it and then that of course complicates things because of family

[02:53:47] summer schedule and tied to the Acolyte I have an announcement that will come out before that so oh okay Star Wars related very good okay exciting and of course Bad Batch is on we'll throw in some

[02:53:58] we're going to be throwing in some Bad Batch coverage as we go along a quick shout out to our discord server boosters Opus the and the Machine that's one person Opus and the Machine

[02:54:07] Gnarls Aaron K and Tiller of the Thriller thank you guys so much for uh helping the server achieve I don't know more emojis or something I don't know but it's it's a support to our Loremaster

[02:54:19] subscribers Samartian Mark H Michael G Michelle E David W Brian P Nick W SC Peter OH Bettina W Adam S Nancy M Dove 71 Brian 8063 Frederick H Sarah L Garrett C Eric F Matthew M Sarah M

[02:54:37] DJ Miwa Andra B Kwang Yu Deadeye Jedi Bob Nathan T Alex V Aaron T Subzero Aaron K Dally V21 Gnarls and uh good things always come to those who are last Adrian on our discord those last two are

[02:54:55] little inside jokes you guys know what those are about thank you all so much for being a lore masters our top tier subscribers uh and helping to keep our community active and you know with

[02:55:06] all the software and the things that we need to run a podcast so we really appreciate you guys Alicia thanks again for doing all this work it is a tremendous amount of passion that you have put

[02:55:16] into this project and so uh really appreciate you bringing this one forward I think it's going to be a cool thing that are you know a good chunk of our listeners are into this kind of stuff so thanks

[02:55:27] yeah yeah join us on the discord to talk about all these films absolutely until the next time with the hidden gems the lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the lorehounds you can send questions and feedback and voicemails at the lorehounds.com contact get early and ad

[02:55:45] free access to all lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the lorehounds any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities thanks for listening