Pachinko - Seasons 1 & 2 - Part 1

[00:00:00] Hello there Lorehound, this is Aaron from Lore of the Rings and if you're loving the deep dive conversations here, then I know you'll love wandering Middle-earth with me on the Lore of the Rings podcast.

[00:00:10] Like the Lorehounds, I'm all about connecting the dots between the rich lore of Middle-earth and the stories you see in the films.

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[00:01:51] Hey, everybody. Future Editor David here.

[00:01:54] Just dropping in really quickly to let you know that, in true Lorehounds fashion, we ran long on this podcast, so we're splitting it into two.

[00:02:01] So this will be a discussion of Season 1, then we'll record in about a week from now for a whole episode just on Season 2.

[00:02:08] But the opportunity is, you have time to send in feedback.

[00:02:12] Send emails to lorehounds at thelorehounds.com.

[00:02:16] Go to the website, use the contact form or voicemail feature, send voicemails from your smartphone to that same email address,

[00:02:23] or head over to our Discord and join the conversation on the Pachinko channel under the Television Forum heading.

[00:02:31] Links for everything are in the show notes below.

[00:02:34] Thanks and enjoy the episode.

[00:02:38] Hello, I'm David.

[00:02:54] And I'm Alicia.

[00:02:55] And we're the Lorehounds.

[00:02:57] Welcome to our deep dive into the first two seasons of Pachinko on Apple TV+.

[00:03:04] Which better be a prelude to the third.

[00:03:05] You listening, Apple?

[00:03:08] Anyway, we're joined today by a special guest you might recognize from our Shogun season wrap-up.

[00:03:13] Hi, Nate.

[00:03:15] Nate Ledbetter, Japanese history expert and Princeton PhD candidate.

[00:03:21] Nate, good to see you.

[00:03:22] How have you been?

[00:03:23] It's been a minute since Shogun.

[00:03:24] Yeah, it's been a little bit, but I've been keeping busy.

[00:03:28] But happy to be back and discuss this wonderful show.

[00:03:32] Yeah, we kind of were throwing this at you before the season started.

[00:03:38] And we're like, Nate, you got to check this out.

[00:03:40] And then, I don't know, you seemed a little slow.

[00:03:42] And then once you got in, you were like, that's it.

[00:03:44] I'm all the way down.

[00:03:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:03:47] I, it was, it was one of those was like, you know, do I want to, I'm into it.

[00:03:53] And then, but yeah, from the first episode, as I was getting ready for the, you know, as I was watching the first season, getting ready for the second season, it was like, you know, it hits you like a ton of bricks.

[00:04:06] Yeah, for sure.

[00:04:07] Good stuff.

[00:04:08] It seems like it's, I mean, everyone acknowledges the quality, but it is almost like people are afraid to watch because it's so emotionally powerful.

[00:04:18] I had to get clear of the hot lore summer before I actually had the emotional bandwidth to be with this show.

[00:04:24] Yeah, but that's why I loved watching it week to week because it's like an hour of that and it's like, whew, okay, I'm going to sit with that for a week and think about all this.

[00:04:32] Yeah.

[00:04:32] Absolutely.

[00:04:33] So we should maybe set up a little bit.

[00:04:35] This is the Apple TV Plus television show created by Su Hu, who's also known for The Terror season one because that's a weird anthology show.

[00:04:45] And it was based on the novel by Min Jin Lee.

[00:04:49] By the way, someone on Discord pointed out that she was involved in season two of The Terror too.

[00:04:55] So anyway.

[00:04:56] Oh, interesting.

[00:04:56] Okay.

[00:04:57] Very cool.

[00:04:58] But the season one of The Terror was great.

[00:04:59] I really enjoyed that.

[00:05:00] That's what I hear.

[00:05:01] I need to watch it.

[00:05:02] So Alicia, can you talk about our three circles of spoilers and how we're going to approach the breaking down?

[00:05:10] We're going to touch a little bit on season one and then we're going to spend a lot of time with season two.

[00:05:14] But how did you want us to proceed here?

[00:05:17] So basically we are, we're going to do our hot takes.

[00:05:21] Like basically, why should you watch despite what we just said about the emotional impact?

[00:05:26] And that's going to be, it's really good.

[00:05:29] And that's going to be spoiler free.

[00:05:31] And then we're going to talk about season one.

[00:05:33] We're going to recap a bit what happened in season one.

[00:05:36] Just set up like the timelines.

[00:05:37] We're going to, for each season, we're going to go in, you know, talk about one timeline at a time.

[00:05:42] And Nate will be weighing in on important historical parameters that give us extra perspective on the events of the show.

[00:05:50] And yeah, so season one, we're going to talk without season two spoilers.

[00:05:55] And then once we start season two, all spoilers are lifted.

[00:05:59] Okay.

[00:06:00] We're going to go in full on.

[00:06:02] Excellent.

[00:06:03] None of us have read the novel.

[00:06:07] So we won't be, I know some things about it, but we won't, yeah, we can't spoil the novel because we haven't read it yet.

[00:06:13] I got it.

[00:06:14] I got a copy.

[00:06:15] Very cool.

[00:06:15] So show only.

[00:06:16] And I did hear that, did I, I don't know if it's an official green light, but a pretty, it felt like, oh, I know what it was.

[00:06:24] I saw the show runners were saying that they have a third season plan to wrap the story.

[00:06:29] So, and Apple has been really generous with these kinds of things that like you got to really fumble the ball to, to have them cancel.

[00:06:36] Yeah.

[00:06:37] I mean, all the on location shooting is the only thing I worry about.

[00:06:41] It may be being expensive for that reason, but I think that's otherwise it's not an expensive show.

[00:06:47] You know, there's not like expensive VFX or these big name American actors.

[00:06:52] It costs so much.

[00:06:54] So Nate, thank you again for joining us.

[00:06:58] Why don't you give us a little short wrap around of who you are and why you are here?

[00:07:06] Okay.

[00:07:07] Well, to start out with, my name is Nate Ledbetter.

[00:07:12] I am a instructor in history, specifically Asian history at Ryder University.

[00:07:20] And I am also very slowly, but surely working on my PhD dissertation where I'm a PhD candidate at, at Princeton University,

[00:07:33] specifically focused on late medieval and early modern Japanese history.

[00:07:38] Okay.

[00:07:40] You know, other than that, I've lived in both Japan and Korea.

[00:07:45] Okay.

[00:07:46] For extensive amounts of time, two years in Korea.

[00:07:49] And if you add up all my time in Japan, I'm getting close to a decade.

[00:07:55] Okay.

[00:07:55] And that's a mixture of deployment in active duty military as well as personal or?

[00:08:01] Yes.

[00:08:02] Yeah.

[00:08:02] I started, I first went to Japan as an exchange student in undergrad and then was stationed in Korea twice with the military,

[00:08:12] was stationed in Japan for about seven years with the military, and then have lived, you know, back and forth here and there in Japan other than that as well.

[00:08:21] You know, whether personal or research or whatever.

[00:08:23] Right.

[00:08:24] And then I remember the way that we sort of got connected with you is during Shogun, you were like all over the old former bad place Twitter,

[00:08:33] because we're all on Blue Sky now.

[00:08:34] Yeah.

[00:08:36] And you were all over the Discord, ours, and you were over with the Bald Moo folks as well,

[00:08:41] and you were just dropping all of these knowledge bombs all over the place.

[00:08:44] And we were like, we got to talk to this guy.

[00:08:46] He knows what he's talking about and he loves television.

[00:08:48] And I remember when we did our Shogun wrap up when you joined us for that as well,

[00:08:53] you had told an anecdote about seeing some sort of piece of Japanese content or media,

[00:08:59] and it like flipped a breaker switch in your brain and you were just kind of electrified by all things Japanese culture and history.

[00:09:07] Yeah.

[00:09:07] Funnily enough, it was the original 1980 Shogun.

[00:09:13] When I was like four or five or something like that.

[00:09:19] And that immediately led to, you know, my parents were watching it.

[00:09:24] And for whatever reason, probably, you know.

[00:09:28] Yeah, we all watched it back then.

[00:09:30] That was, yeah.

[00:09:31] Yeah.

[00:09:31] Those miniseries on the network TVs were big deals.

[00:09:35] Yeah.

[00:09:35] And then that led to me going and reading every single book in the library about Japan.

[00:09:41] And my parents thought it would be a phase.

[00:09:43] I'm still not out of that phase.

[00:09:46] I've turned that phase into.

[00:09:48] Career.

[00:09:49] Career.

[00:09:51] But, but yeah, so that's the funny thing.

[00:09:53] Like, like, you know, not to keep dwelling on Shogun, but when it came out, I was really nervous because now having like studied the period, you know, that's my specialty.

[00:10:05] I look at it at the 1980 version and the book, the novel that it's based on and have.

[00:10:11] I had a lot of, I had a lot of trepidation that it would repeat some of the same kind of mistakes, not only historical mistakes, but like cultural assumptions and so forth.

[00:10:22] Um, so it was great finding on the internet, little communities.

[00:10:28] Um, well, big communities, you guys are huge.

[00:10:31] Um, you know, like the lorehounds to be able to kind of not only discuss it, but just kind of vent my thoughts in a way that, that I couldn't elsewhere.

[00:10:41] Um, so I quite enjoyed that and, you know, here I am.

[00:10:47] Well, now we're ready to vent some thoughts about pachinko.

[00:10:50] So.

[00:10:51] And there are so many.

[00:10:52] There are so many.

[00:10:53] So let's set up a very, uh, simple premise for the show that it's, uh, this show centers on four generations of a Korean family that emigrates from Japan in 1915 and carrying the story.

[00:11:09] To Japan.

[00:11:10] Yes.

[00:11:10] To Japan.

[00:11:10] Did I say not?

[00:11:11] Okay.

[00:11:11] Sorry.

[00:11:12] Um, to Japan, uh, in 1915 through 1989 so far.

[00:11:19] And the show itself weaves flashbacks and flash forwards.

[00:11:24] It weaves all of these timelines together into a really beautiful fabric of storytelling.

[00:11:31] So that's the basic premise.

[00:11:33] It's following this one family and their legacy across, uh, generations.

[00:11:38] And their lived experience in Korea and then in Japan and then a little bit of the United States, but then mostly in Japan in the, in the later years.

[00:11:47] Weaving all of these timeframes together.

[00:11:49] Nate, uh, it seems like you've already started teaching this to some of your students.

[00:11:54] Do you want to go ahead as our guest and share some of your spoiler free thoughts about why people should watch this show?

[00:12:04] Yeah.

[00:12:05] So, um, it's funny because last in the spring semester at my university, I was teaching a course on samurai.

[00:12:14] And so Shogun was very timely for me.

[00:12:17] Very.

[00:12:18] Coming out to, to, to get students interested.

[00:12:21] And then, uh, just as the fall semester was starting, you know, we started with season two of Pachinko and watch that.

[00:12:30] And I started watching the first season and my immediate thought was I could literally teach my entire modern Japanese history course.

[00:12:38] Of course, you know, that I'm teaching now using elements of Pachinko because it follows and hits all these major high points and low points, uh, of Japanese history.

[00:12:51] But through the lens of this Korean family.

[00:12:53] So, uh, it's, it's, it's wonderful.

[00:12:56] It's a roller coaster.

[00:12:58] Uh, and it's really, for me, a unique show in how it, it plays with the emotions, uh, and, and takes it so that, you know, one minute it, it's not, it, it'd be very weird to compare it to Game of Thrones.

[00:13:16] Cause it's not like Game of Thrones at all.

[00:13:18] Right.

[00:13:18] But in the way that the original series had you like somebody and then they did something and you, then you hated them and then they turn around the next minute and then you, they do something wonderful and you're like so sympathetic to them.

[00:13:34] And then they do something awful and you're like, wait a minute.

[00:13:36] You know, it's, it's kind of that same feel.

[00:13:40] Yeah.

[00:13:41] For me.

[00:13:42] Uh, and then the last thing is it's so beautiful.

[00:13:47] In terms of how they structure the show linguistically.

[00:13:54] Yeah.

[00:13:56] Um, you know, I don't speak Korean.

[00:13:59] Uh, I, I, I know a few words and phrases that I can generally sound my way through words reading it, but I don't, I don't speak it, but I do speak Japanese.

[00:14:09] And the, the, the way that they have each character speaking in a language, uh, the, the Japanese speakers, at least I can identify as they're speaking with the proper, for the most part, regional dialects and, and so forth.

[00:14:27] Uh, that you would expect, but instead of trying to like flatten it all and be one language or, uh, you know, at most two languages where the only have to do it.

[00:14:39] They, they have the Korean speakers who live in Japan, speaking both languages.

[00:14:44] Uh, the native Japanese speak or the, the ones who grew up in Japan speak Japanese very well.

[00:14:52] Uh, with, with a Japanese accent in addition to their Korean.

[00:14:57] Uh, the ones who came from Korea speak with a Korean accent in Japanese.

[00:15:03] Uh, and then the show gives you subtitles for both languages, but they do it by showing the Korean in yellow and the Japanese in blue.

[00:15:15] So even if you don't speak either of those languages, you know, which one is being spoken at any given time.

[00:15:20] Right.

[00:15:21] And the Korean characters who live in Japan will mix the two as one normally does when you are, you know, an immigrant or, or, or some sort of, you know, mixed cultural heritage.

[00:15:33] Right.

[00:15:34] So it's that kind of replication for me is just, it's spot on.

[00:15:39] I love it.

[00:15:39] Uh, and I'll just add really quickly to, they show the English subtitles.

[00:15:44] So if you're watching in some other language, they're all three languages are, have a parody.

[00:15:49] And then when they show title cards, they'll show the English, the Korean and the Japanese in those languages.

[00:15:57] Like they're saying like, uh, uh, Tokyo in a particular year or, you know, uh, New York in a particular year, whatever they're showing.

[00:16:04] So all across the entire show, all three languages have a very equal weighting.

[00:16:09] Yes.

[00:16:10] It's really great.

[00:16:11] Absolutely.

[00:16:11] Yeah.

[00:16:12] I live in a bilingual community and, um, even, and it's funny because there's, I know a range of people from people who are most comfortable.

[00:16:19] In English, but sprinkle Dutch words into what they say, because you can't live here and not do that to people who speak quote unquote, exclusively Dutch.

[00:16:28] But even they use, they drop in English words and phrases.

[00:16:31] And, um, yeah, it's nice to see that represented how complex it just speaks to how this show is about the complexity of identity.

[00:16:40] Absolutely.

[00:16:41] Absolutely.

[00:16:42] So Alicia, thank you again for doing the outline for the show.

[00:16:46] Cause this is a monster show to unpack and you've got me listed next in the outline here.

[00:16:51] And, and the, the premise for this part of the section was you wrote, uh, as a header, why watch question?

[00:16:57] So I took that literally, I actually took, you know, what you said there and I said, okay.

[00:17:02] So for me, if you like things like the leftovers station 11, the queen's gamut that are heavy on the vibes and heavy on the character moments, the show is for you.

[00:17:14] If you like non-conventional storytelling where the writers bend and alter the traditional forms and formats, this show is for you.

[00:17:24] If you're interested in history and the as lived experience of people from different places and periods, the show is for you.

[00:17:33] If visual storytelling is as important to you as the writing and the acting, this show is for you.

[00:17:40] And if you're interested in, wait for it, stories about the human heart in conflict with itself, then this show is for you.

[00:17:53] Uh, and it's, it's a beautiful recitation of a family across generation time.

[00:18:01] It's just a gorgeous to watch and to listen to and to feel across the board.

[00:18:08] And then I just have to, we have to, I don't know how much we're going to get to talk about it.

[00:18:13] The opening credits is such an amazing experience.

[00:18:17] And if you judge a book by its cover and the season two opening credits, I absolutely adore.

[00:18:23] Uh, so, so that is my, uh, emotionally delivered, uh, reason to watch Alicia.

[00:18:32] What, uh, what is your, what are your reasons to watch?

[00:18:35] So I'll, I'll definitely second the opening credits.

[00:18:38] I also, especially like season two, season one's great, but it's like, it's funny.

[00:18:42] Cause my mom was getting me to watch that.

[00:18:44] Uh, what does that, that TV show on Netflix, the perfect couple.

[00:18:46] And they also have like a dancey opening credits.

[00:18:48] And then I'm like, no, but look at Pachinko.

[00:18:52] I like the season two credits much better than the season one.

[00:18:54] Season one even plays it up a little bit.

[00:18:56] They changed some things.

[00:18:57] Sorry, Nate, you were saying.

[00:18:57] I, I, I'm going to be the lone dissenting voice and say that I like the season one credits

[00:19:01] better than the season two credits.

[00:19:03] All voices represented.

[00:19:04] It's largely based on the song.

[00:19:06] They're both wonderful.

[00:19:08] Yeah.

[00:19:08] Yeah.

[00:19:08] Fair.

[00:19:09] Fair.

[00:19:10] Yeah.

[00:19:10] I mean, I'll, I'll just say that this show, it, it's so good that it made me get

[00:19:14] the novel.

[00:19:15] Like my reading list is so long and I'll be honest, I often don't make time for fiction

[00:19:20] books that are not like fantasy or sci-fi or horror, you know?

[00:19:23] So this really, I need to know the book version of the story.

[00:19:28] I need to know the rest of the story.

[00:19:29] Can't wait for season three.

[00:19:31] But yeah, we'll see when I get to read it.

[00:19:34] But yeah, it is told in a different order in the book versus a show, which is another

[00:19:40] thing I'm really curious about seeing play out.

[00:19:44] And, but I love how in the show they have like, so the, the book's chronological order

[00:19:49] and the show, as you said, is weaving together these different timelines.

[00:19:52] So it allows you to see how the past and present interact directly and how new generations

[00:19:58] relearn the lessons of their parents and grandparents, um, with twists, because then,

[00:20:03] you know, you have these identity questions we brought up.

[00:20:06] Also, yeah, we mentioned briefly, there's like Americanization is playing a role in the

[00:20:11] younger generation too.

[00:20:12] So these complex identities, um, I'm, I'm learning a lot about culture.

[00:20:17] Like we're going to talk about more, but I didn't realize the whole thing, like the

[00:20:22] center family, uh, their last name for most of it is bake in Korean and bondo in Japanese.

[00:20:28] And it really starts to become interesting to pay attention to when they use which, um,

[00:20:33] yeah.

[00:20:33] Thanks a lot to Nate and God, he's here to help educate all of us.

[00:20:36] And, and it's just, yeah, the locations of cinematography, the acting, the writing, um,

[00:20:42] it's just so ripe for rewatch because I want to rewatch from the beginning now, because

[00:20:47] especially like in the beginning, there's a death that doesn't hit very hard because you

[00:20:53] haven't really gotten to know this character yet.

[00:20:55] But then when you go back in time and see all this play out, yeah.

[00:21:00] And it's, it's just worth watching again and again for sure.

[00:21:03] And I'm so glad that it's been made so far and I hope they get to finish the story.

[00:21:07] I watched, uh, episode season one, episode seven, and a little bit of episode eight last

[00:21:13] night.

[00:21:13] And yeah, the, on the rewatch, the complexity and the detail.

[00:21:18] And I was like, Oh, and that's where that came from.

[00:21:19] And that's how that got connected.

[00:21:21] Cause seven's a real pivotal episode in season one.

[00:21:24] And it was the dense, it's so dense that every time you unpack it, you get the joy of, of

[00:21:31] experiencing it all over again.

[00:21:34] So Alicia, you have got a note here a little bit about, uh, and we mentioned this already

[00:21:38] the emotional toll.

[00:21:39] Do you want to talk a little bit more about that?

[00:21:41] Well, I just, I mean, I don't want to scare people away.

[00:21:43] So why do we love it anyway?

[00:21:45] Despite that?

[00:21:45] I guess we've said a lot of reasons, but I mean, I know David, you took a while to start

[00:21:51] season two because you were a little like, Ooh, I don't know, uh, about, you know, taking

[00:21:55] that on, but then you binged it.

[00:21:57] So I did.

[00:21:58] Yeah.

[00:21:59] Yeah.

[00:21:59] We got clear from hot lore summer.

[00:22:01] We had a very busy one.

[00:22:02] And so it was just carrying that load.

[00:22:04] And then we had my, in my family, we just had a very good, but busy summer.

[00:22:08] So I was just sort of physically and mentally exhausted.

[00:22:11] And one of the things that I want for the show is to appreciate it deeply.

[00:22:15] And I want the, the, those moments to really affect me.

[00:22:19] And that requires some emotional energy.

[00:22:21] So I had to like be in a position.

[00:22:24] And then we were trying to plan to actually do this podcast because we really want to talk

[00:22:28] about the show.

[00:22:29] So I had a little moment where, um, my, uh, wife and daughter were away on a sort of a

[00:22:35] mother daughter trip.

[00:22:36] And I was like, Oh, cool.

[00:22:37] And so I dove in and I binged it and it actually wasn't that bad.

[00:22:40] It was pretty manageable in a lot of ways.

[00:22:42] Season two is more manageable for, for it was for me more manageable than season one.

[00:22:47] One, because I, I'm prepared for what's coming on.

[00:22:51] But then two, there was a couple of key scenes, key plot threads that weren't as raw, emotionally

[00:22:59] raw as they are in season one.

[00:23:01] I was able to deal with what was, was coming.

[00:23:03] Uh, and there were some in season two, there were just some beautiful moments that really

[00:23:08] were uplifting for me.

[00:23:09] And, uh, so I was able, I really found myself writing a lot easier.

[00:23:14] Whereas season one was just like, man, emotional blow after emotional blow.

[00:23:21] So, all right.

[00:23:22] Well, should we, any other, uh, broad thoughts in this, in a spoiler free zone?

[00:23:28] Um, yeah, if I could just, you know, I, I just want to chime in on that last, uh, bit,

[00:23:34] the, the, it is emotional.

[00:23:36] Um, but I, I certainly like one of the comments I made on the board, uh, very early on, uh, as

[00:23:45] I was rewatching, you know, watching season one was, was that this might be the best show

[00:23:49] I've ever seen.

[00:23:51] Um, it's not the most fun show all the time.

[00:23:54] Uh, and sometimes it's not even the most enjoyable show because of the complexity of

[00:23:59] the emotions that it, that it builds.

[00:24:02] Uh, but it is certainly one of the best.

[00:24:06] I mean, obviously I, I have my own bias being a historian of Japan and, and teaching this

[00:24:12] particular time period, um, in, in particular, uh, but, and we'll get into it as, as we go,

[00:24:19] but the way that it hits historically, uh, all the key things and you see, you know, the

[00:24:27] effects of these historical events on this family is just amazing.

[00:24:33] Uh, and there's very few shows that I would say do it, uh, as well as this one.

[00:24:40] I would, uh, in future, who knows the next year is going to be crazy and we don't know

[00:24:45] when season three is going to come, but this show really does deserve almost a weekly breakdown.

[00:24:48] Right.

[00:24:50] And, uh, we just couldn't do it this year just physically.

[00:24:52] Right.

[00:24:53] Even if we were doing podcasting full-time, I don't even know we could have handled it.

[00:24:57] It would have been too much.

[00:24:58] All right.

[00:24:58] Before we, uh, take a quick break and then get into season one and our first ring of spoilers,

[00:25:04] just a very quick, uh, note about Pachinko the game.

[00:25:10] What is this show's, you know, main title?

[00:25:14] Pachinko.

[00:25:14] And, uh, just for people who may not be aware of what Pachinko is, it's a mechanical

[00:25:18] gambling game that's really popular in Japan.

[00:25:21] And it's very similar in some ways to pinball.

[00:25:24] And it's also very similar to what we know in the United States as slot machines.

[00:25:28] I'm sure slot machines are elsewhere too.

[00:25:29] And what happens is they have these Pachinko halls and that's a part of the storyline here,

[00:25:35] but that where it's just lined with Pachinko machines and players rent a box of silver little

[00:25:43] balls, bigger than BBs and smaller than a pinball, uh, or a billiard ball.

[00:25:47] And then they fire them into, uh, the machine.

[00:25:51] That's a vertically standing machine with a flipper.

[00:25:55] And then as the ball drops down, it bounces on these little pins that are all in these different

[00:26:00] shapes and configurations.

[00:26:03] And so it's partly chance and it's maybe there's some skill in it.

[00:26:07] I'm, I've never really played one a lot, so I really don't understand it very well,

[00:26:10] but it bounces around and bounces down.

[00:26:12] And if it falls into certain pockets or hits certain bells or buzzers, things happen.

[00:26:19] And, um, you are trying to get more balls than you started with.

[00:26:25] And then, and apparently Nate, this is this true?

[00:26:28] Gambling for cash in Japan is illegal.

[00:26:31] Um, that's what I read on the wiki.

[00:26:34] Yeah.

[00:26:34] You know, uh, you know, I'm thinking that one is true.

[00:26:37] Yeah.

[00:26:37] I mean, they have like things like lotteries and so forth, but, but.

[00:26:41] Um, straight for cash, cash for cash.

[00:26:44] Like casino style gambling is, if it, I don't want to, I, it's rare.

[00:26:51] I'll put it that way.

[00:26:52] Right.

[00:26:53] So the, what happens then is, is the, um, when you get your, the, the balls back, if you've

[00:26:59] got more than when you started with, then you can exchange the balls back to the parlor

[00:27:04] for prizes, you know, stuffed animals, sunglasses, cigarette lighter.

[00:27:08] Well, you know, I think people still smoke quite a lot, probably in Japan, you know, all

[00:27:12] these sort of trinkets and doodads and things, but then you can get a special prize that you

[00:27:17] can take off premises and go to the vendor immediately next door or across the alley.

[00:27:23] And you can exchange that special prize for cash.

[00:27:26] So the, the cash payout has to be separate from the pachinko parlor.

[00:27:31] So this game has an interesting, uh, history.

[00:27:35] It was developed as a children's toy, um, by, from something called Bagatelle in the twenties.

[00:27:41] And then it became a, an adult pastime in Nagoya around 1930.

[00:27:45] And then it sort of boomed in post world war two.

[00:27:49] And there's a couple of different games.

[00:27:50] There's even another game where it's basically pins and balls, and then they bounce around.

[00:27:54] And so this, I don't know how this game came together, but it gets, there's definitely a

[00:27:59] couple of, uh, uh, early, um, uh, forms that this then derived from, but then apparently

[00:28:06] after world war two, two, it just took off.

[00:28:09] Modern machines have electronics and video screens, and there are a lot more slot machine

[00:28:14] hybridized, um, uh, big titles and properties, anime and manga things will do licensing deals

[00:28:22] and cross branding with, um, and it used to be a really massive industry, but it's apparently

[00:28:29] been on the decline.

[00:28:30] And in 2015, the revenue was more than Las Vegas, Macau and Singapore combined.

[00:28:41] And it represented about five, five and a half percent of Jap Japan's GDP in 1999.

[00:28:49] And obviously if there's a lot of money, there's oftentimes a lot of crime.

[00:28:53] And so there was a lot of connectivity to the Yakuza, to the organized crime, uh, syndicates

[00:28:59] that operate in Japan, but then the police had a big crackdown on it, uh, as well as

[00:29:04] addiction being a big problem.

[00:29:06] And so I think there was, um, uh, people, the society tried to address that.

[00:29:11] I mean, they were saying estimating like 9% of all Japanese men were patho, you know, diagnosed,

[00:29:17] you know, could be diagnosed pathological gamblers.

[00:29:19] So very serious addiction problems.

[00:29:22] And since then in, it's been in decline.

[00:29:26] So in 2005, I guess the peak was 35 trillion yen, which is about 260 billion us dollars for

[00:29:34] that time.

[00:29:34] And now in 2022, well, a couple of years ago, it's down to 14 trillion yen, about 110 billion.

[00:29:40] So less than half.

[00:29:42] And the number of parlors went from, uh, almost, you know, 18, 19,000 in 97 down to about seven

[00:29:50] and a half thousand in 2022 with the number of machines, uh, dropping below two and a half

[00:29:55] million.

[00:29:56] So really a fast drop off in the number of parlors and the amount of money that is as being

[00:30:03] generated.

[00:30:03] I don't know if you have any historical or modern lived context with that.

[00:30:08] Have you played pachinko?

[00:30:09] Um, so yeah, I, I have once, uh, in 1995 when I was there in Japan for the first time as

[00:30:17] an exchange student, which funnily enough, I lived in Nagoya for a year.

[00:30:21] Um, and I lived with a Japanese host family and my host father played pachinko, uh, on occasion,

[00:30:29] not certainly not addict levels or anything like that, but, but it's a pastime.

[00:30:33] Fun pastime.

[00:30:34] As a pastime, whatever.

[00:30:36] So one day, um, this was shortly after I got there too.

[00:30:40] So, you know, my Japanese level at that point was very basic.

[00:30:44] So, uh, he was going and so he takes me along with him to a pachinko parlor and we go in

[00:30:51] and, and to just kind of give a bit of an understanding, like it's like a, a casino, uh, somewhat, but it's a thousand times louder.

[00:31:06] Pachinko parlor is one of the loudest things that you've ever been around.

[00:31:11] Um, and then you go in and you sit at a machine, you know, they have a little stool in front of,

[00:31:18] as you said, you described it with quite what, quite well, the, uh, the standing machine and

[00:31:23] you get your little silver balls, uh, and you dump them in.

[00:31:27] And when you play your, it, I think the closest thing we have is pinball, but it's like a pinball on crack.

[00:31:36] Like you're, you're.

[00:31:38] And it's standing up.

[00:31:39] It's not like, it's not horizontally or, you know, at an angle in front of you.

[00:31:43] It's vertical.

[00:31:44] Yes.

[00:31:45] Like a wall in front of you.

[00:31:47] And you're not, um, you're not putting one ball in and shooting it and then trying to like

[00:31:52] use flippers or whatever to, you're shooting a stream of these balls.

[00:31:57] So, so thinking of them as like large BBs is a, is a good way to think about it because you're,

[00:32:02] you're shooting and the idea is to get it into, go into certain places on the board where it hits,

[00:32:08] you know, higher scores and therefore gives you more balls to continue playing with.

[00:32:13] Um, and so forth.

[00:32:16] Uh, my, my host father, uh, gave me, uh, a thousand yen to start with, which is like 10 bucks at the,

[00:32:26] at the more or less at the time.

[00:32:28] Um, and so, you know, I started with that and I, I started playing and in less than probably a minute

[00:32:39] and a half, all of my balls were gone.

[00:32:42] Uh, and I said, okay, this is not for me.

[00:32:45] I am not going to make money via pachinko as a side hustle.

[00:32:49] Uh, and I've never done it again.

[00:32:51] Right.

[00:32:51] But I have, you know, they're everywhere.

[00:32:55] I mean, even with the decline that you described, you know, you walk around Japanese cities and like,

[00:33:01] I, I, I have lived in, in multiple cities in Japan and there's, they're always around.

[00:33:06] Um, people will start lining up, especially if it's like a certain, you know, sometimes they'll run like

[00:33:14] bonus days or special days or something like that.

[00:33:17] And on those days, certainly you're like, you might have a line around the block waiting to get in

[00:33:22] at opening time.

[00:33:24] Uh, so it's still, people are still very passionate about it when they, when they, um, it, you know,

[00:33:32] I'm not a gambler at heart.

[00:33:33] That's just not right.

[00:33:35] So, uh, Alicia, have you ever played pachinko?

[00:33:39] Um, I haven't played it myself, but I have a very vivid memory of being in Japan and watching a game

[00:33:46] that I now realize must've been pachinko, but it was actually, it was in an arcade, you know?

[00:33:51] So we had gone to a big arcade in Tokyo to, I don't know, we were there to play other games and,

[00:33:57] but we could not figure out what was going on with this game with the balls dropping down.

[00:34:01] And it was all these people sitting around this, uh, where they each had like a face of it.

[00:34:05] But then as it dropped down, like all these crazy things would happen.

[00:34:08] There was like a machine that like would send off, I don't know, like, uh, a bunch of coins would fall

[00:34:13] somewhere or like a balloon would pop somewhere or, you know, it was just, I could not.

[00:34:19] Giant Rube Goldberg machine almost.

[00:34:20] Yeah, exactly.

[00:34:21] And I couldn't, we were just stood there watching this for the longest time, trying to figure out

[00:34:24] what they were doing.

[00:34:25] And I realized now I think that was pachinko, but like a really, you know.

[00:34:30] The classic style is kind of what you see in the, in the, in the show where it's like.

[00:34:35] A single machine.

[00:34:36] Yeah.

[00:34:37] Yeah.

[00:34:37] They're lined up like slot machines, but I have seen in, in different arcades variations,

[00:34:43] uh, that look similar to what you just described.

[00:34:45] So, yeah.

[00:34:46] Right.

[00:34:46] You know, the very like shin or what is it?

[00:34:49] Um, you know, in Tokyo where the electronics are hot, ha.

[00:34:54] Akihabara.

[00:34:55] Akihabara.

[00:34:56] The, it was like, you know, the hyper modern sort of feeling like that.

[00:34:59] Yeah.

[00:35:01] And, and I don't wonder what the metaphor of pachinko is to the story and the way that

[00:35:08] life and how we are directed through life and the random chance encounters and then the

[00:35:14] intentional things and then the intentional things that don't go the way that we want

[00:35:18] them.

[00:35:18] And then they go the way that they want them sometimes.

[00:35:20] And so life is this sort of, you know, I don't know how far we want to take that metaphor.

[00:35:24] Maybe we can discuss it more when we get into the full discussion.

[00:35:27] There's also, there's also a historical relation.

[00:35:30] I mean, pachinko, uh, you know, this is essentially a story about a Korean family and Korean Zainichi

[00:35:38] Koreans.

[00:35:38] So Zainichi is the term literally just means in Japan, resident in Japan.

[00:35:43] Um, but Zainichi Koreans are, you know, like many minorities in different societies around

[00:35:51] the world, oftentimes relegated to the margins.

[00:35:55] Right.

[00:35:55] Right.

[00:35:56] And so there's a historical connection with industries like gambling, uh, or, or some of

[00:36:04] some others that are, uh, that, that are typically marginalized in Japan where Koreans resident

[00:36:11] in Japan could find, uh, success could find their way into, you know, making money owning.

[00:36:19] So, um, cause they weren't the normal track, like, Oh, you got to go work for the corporation

[00:36:23] and be white collar and do this stuff.

[00:36:25] Right.

[00:36:25] Here's this marginal service.

[00:36:26] They may not be allowed to, uh, or, you know, could be, no, certainly over time that has

[00:36:33] gotten better.

[00:36:34] Uh, we'll say, but, you know, historically pachinko is one of these industries where,

[00:36:39] right.

[00:36:39] Uh, which, well, nevermind, I'll save that for when we get to it, but I almost went there,

[00:36:47] but then I stopped myself.

[00:36:48] But, but, but yeah.

[00:36:50] So, so the idea that this Korean family is connected to the game of pachinko is very historically

[00:36:57] relevant, I think.

[00:36:59] Right.

[00:36:59] Uh, to the background of the story.

[00:37:01] Well, I think that's a good place to take a quick break.

[00:37:03] And then what we'll do is we will come back and then we will get into season one and we'll

[00:37:09] spoil, we'll talk spoilers for season one, but not for season two.

[00:37:13] And then we'll take another break and then, and do that on the other side.

[00:37:16] So we will be right back.

[00:37:22] I think of all the worries people seem to find.

[00:37:28] Wünschst du dir jemanden, der dich versteht wie kein anderer?

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[00:38:24] And how they're in a hurry to complicate their minds by chasing after money and dreams that

[00:38:31] can't come true.

[00:38:32] And we are back.

[00:38:35] Alicia, do you want to guide us through this since you did an excellent job of the notes?

[00:38:41] I'm so glad.

[00:38:41] I cannot tell you how glad I am you did this because trying to unpack this show on a scene-by-scene

[00:38:47] basis, you're jumping between time and everything.

[00:38:50] But if you would love to, if you'd like to, set us up for how we're going to tackle this

[00:38:55] and then go ahead and guide us through the process.

[00:38:57] Okay, yeah.

[00:38:58] So I thought that the easiest way to go at this would be to just talk about one time period

[00:39:05] at a time.

[00:39:06] Gotcha.

[00:39:06] For season one, that's relatively simple.

[00:39:08] Season two, we're going to break that up a little bit further because there's a few

[00:39:11] big set pieces in the same time period.

[00:39:13] But for just to set up season one in general, so the plot summary overall of season one is

[00:39:20] in 1931, Sunja leaves her family in Korea under Japanese rule to move to Koreatown of Osaka,

[00:39:26] Japan and start a new life there.

[00:39:28] The series details the living conditions and discrimination of Korean immigrants in Japanese

[00:39:32] society.

[00:39:33] I think I copied that from an official description.

[00:39:36] But then, so actually, we said 1931 is when she leaves Korea, but we're going to jump back

[00:39:42] a little bit to the series actually first starts in 1915.

[00:39:47] And we go to Yongdo, which is a small island off of Busan.

[00:39:52] And all I know about Busan is that A, it's the second largest city in Korea.

[00:39:58] B, you do not want to be on a train there during a zombie apocalypse.

[00:40:03] Love that movie.

[00:40:05] Such a good movie.

[00:40:07] But, but yeah, so this is, we can see this is a place when she's young, it looks quite

[00:40:11] rural, sorry.

[00:40:13] And we also meet her father who has a cleft lip.

[00:40:17] And as far as I can tell, that's like the only thing that's quote unquote wrong about

[00:40:21] him or something, but they've decided he's weird and they're mean to him.

[00:40:24] And she's the miracle child of her parents after they go see a Korean shaman.

[00:40:29] So, first of all, David, you said I needed to go, I need to rewatch for the Korean shaman

[00:40:34] at the beginning.

[00:40:37] Because it's a very witchy year this year.

[00:40:39] And so I was like, oh my God.

[00:40:41] Witches everywhere.

[00:40:42] Witches everywhere.

[00:40:43] But Nate, you also brought up that this 1915 is five years after Japan annexed Korea.

[00:40:49] So this is the start of a 35 year occupation.

[00:40:52] And that's sort of what we get introduced to as well.

[00:40:55] Right.

[00:40:56] So, so the world that Sinjah is born into at the, at this point is one of increasing Japanese

[00:41:05] colonial control over Korea.

[00:41:08] Korea, they, you know, Korea had been nominally independent, but also nominally a client state

[00:41:17] of Qing empire in China up until 1895.

[00:41:21] And then after the Sino-Japanese war, Japan increased its presence in Korea and, and, and hold over

[00:41:32] it.

[00:41:32] And then of course defeated Russia in the Russo-Japanese war, 1904, 1905.

[00:41:38] And that basically left Korea to Japan once, once the Russians were defeated.

[00:41:47] So, you know, we won't go into like all the details, but, but by 1910, Japan officially

[00:41:54] annexed Korea.

[00:41:56] So five years after when Sinjah is born, that's why, you know, when we, when we see different

[00:42:03] things, uh, taking place, like there's a, uh, Sinjah's family, I guess, runs a kind of

[00:42:09] like a boarding house or a lodge or something like that.

[00:42:12] And there's a, uh, a scene early on where, uh, one of the, the, the people is, is talking

[00:42:20] about, you know, at least negatively about the Japanese and so forth.

[00:42:25] Um, you know, so that's kind of the background context to that.

[00:42:29] Right.

[00:42:30] Right.

[00:42:30] It kind of speed runs through her childhood into the twenties and we see like this growing

[00:42:35] tension and that's, yeah, definitely one of the, they have this.

[00:42:38] And then she, she gets involved.

[00:42:40] She has to, this is one of like her first where she has to question like, oh, maybe he's

[00:42:44] not saying something that my parents think are wrong.

[00:42:47] But, um, if he says this, we could all get in trouble.

[00:42:50] Right.

[00:42:51] Right.

[00:42:51] And I, I think there's, um, you know, at least one, one person who is shown in a, you know,

[00:43:00] a dramatic scene and, uh, who is, uh, arrested and taken away by the Japanese.

[00:43:06] Uh, and this kind of illustrates that idea of, you know, the Japanese being a, a colonial

[00:43:13] power and imposing this kind of, you know, uh, order that's not necessarily welcome by

[00:43:20] the Koreans, but they don't have the power to do anything about it at the moment.

[00:43:24] And this is where we see Sanjaya really first become, um, uh, aware of the world.

[00:43:31] And there's this beautiful moment.

[00:43:34] I need a bike.

[00:43:35] Should have grabbed a box of tissues before we started this recording.

[00:43:37] Cause I could feel emotion every once in a while kick in.

[00:43:39] And her father makes this promise to her on the boat ride back from the fish market area,

[00:43:45] back to the Island that they live on saying that it's my job.

[00:43:49] I make this promise to you to protect you from the horribleness of the world.

[00:43:54] And of course he, you know, he fails when he passes away that, and that promise.

[00:43:59] But this is when we see this extraordinary awakening of Sanjaya and her brightness, her spark of life,

[00:44:12] that.

[00:44:13] Her perseverance.

[00:44:15] Her perseverance.

[00:44:16] And all of these characters and these characteristics and qualities that make her stand out as a human

[00:44:23] being amongst all these other human beings, which then affects her, her life and her father.

[00:44:29] Like if I could be a father like that guy, he was amazing.

[00:44:34] He was a good dad.

[00:44:35] Yeah.

[00:44:35] Yeah.

[00:44:36] Yeah.

[00:44:36] Well, I'm getting all weepy over here guys.

[00:44:39] Yeah.

[00:44:40] He, he, he, he encouraged her, which is, you know, I mean, Korea is traditionally, uh, at the,

[00:44:48] in that time, certainly, uh, it was a very patriarchal society, you know, coming from a very strict

[00:44:55] Confucian, uh, societal and cultural background.

[00:44:59] And, but it's interesting to watch how he as a father encourages her.

[00:45:03] He, there's a, a scene where he takes her out to, uh, you know, she wants to go swimming

[00:45:09] instead of doing whatever chores her mom asked her to do.

[00:45:12] Uh, and, and she, so she goes and she's, she's in the same location as the, the female, uh,

[00:45:19] per, uh, oyster divers who were gathering oysters for both, you know, food consumption

[00:45:25] and for pearls in them.

[00:45:27] And so she's doing that at a very young age and very proud of herself.

[00:45:32] And so, you know, he's in some ways encouraging kind of that independent nature that, that,

[00:45:38] that we see, uh, uh, you know, through her, through the rest of her, her life on the show.

[00:45:45] Right.

[00:45:46] Yep.

[00:45:47] Hmm.

[00:45:49] So one of my favorites, uh, it was, was it, it was a standalone episode.

[00:45:54] Yeah.

[00:45:54] Uh, from, it comes later in the season, but it comes during this point in the timeline while

[00:45:58] Sinja, Sinja's having her childhood in Korea, there's another character who, who's becomes

[00:46:04] quite important in the show named Koh Hansu, who we're seeing, uh,

[00:46:08] his origin story, story, so to speak.

[00:46:10] Episode seven.

[00:46:11] I just watched it last night.

[00:46:13] Oh yeah.

[00:46:14] Yeah.

[00:46:14] That's such a good episode.

[00:46:15] So that's a 1923 Japan.

[00:46:18] Can I just make a quick note too?

[00:46:19] What it's interesting too, because in that, um, that story, that standalone episode, they

[00:46:24] change the aspect ratio and they make it smaller than the screen and the feel they're

[00:46:30] kind of giving you like a old small TV feel and you're looking further back into the past

[00:46:35] into this extra world as opposed to our normal aspect ratio for the main show.

[00:46:40] Interesting.

[00:46:41] Yeah.

[00:46:41] Like a news report almost.

[00:46:43] Yeah.

[00:46:44] Yeah.

[00:46:44] Cause Nate, why is 1923 Japan, um, an important touch point?

[00:46:50] Funnily enough, uh, this is, this is the episode I showed 20 minutes of this episode

[00:46:56] in class, uh, when we got to, to, to this event.

[00:47:00] Uh, so, uh, 1923, uh, is the date of the great Kanto earthquake.

[00:47:07] It actually happened September 1st, 1923.

[00:47:09] Uh, and it, it's an earthquake that devastates, uh, Tokyo, which is obviously the capital and

[00:47:15] largest city.

[00:47:16] Right.

[00:47:17] And Yokohama, which is, uh, technically I think the third largest city, but is also

[00:47:23] a massive city just, you know, almost next to Tokyo.

[00:47:28] And Yokohama is where this character Kohansu is living.

[00:47:32] Uh, and so we get to see the aspect of, uh, the earthquake, you know, and everything,

[00:47:39] uh, in those events through his eyes, uh, and it, you know, I don't, uh,

[00:47:46] know if you wanted to talk about kind of his role as a character, but it kind of like, um,

[00:47:55] in many ways he is a complicated character at, at times he's, uh, portrayed as the bad guy.

[00:48:02] Uh, and then sometimes the hero.

[00:48:05] Yeah.

[00:48:05] And sometimes the hero, um, the Jamie Lannister, if you will.

[00:48:11] Yeah.

[00:48:13] And, but, but this story kind of gives us, uh, like, like you said, I mean, I think it's,

[00:48:18] it, it, it, it's a standalone episode in order to get us to understand where, uh, Hansu comes

[00:48:26] from, why he is how he is.

[00:48:30] Um, and so I, from a historical context, I used it in class because not only is it a major

[00:48:38] event, uh, obviously, you know, massive devastation, uh, you know, hundreds of thousands, uh, killed

[00:48:46] homeless.

[00:48:47] Uh, it has a devastating effect on the economy.

[00:48:50] Um, you know, in addition to the human toll, uh, of course, but the show does such a good

[00:48:58] job of giving it to you at the level of somebody experiencing it.

[00:49:03] Mm-hmm .

[00:49:04] You know, we, we, we have that opening or that scene, not the opening, but the scene

[00:49:09] where the earthquake starts to happen.

[00:49:11] And he's, he's in that tense meeting with his father and the, the Yakuza boss.

[00:49:16] Mm-hmm .

[00:49:17] And, and then all of a sudden, you know, all hell breaks loose and very quickly you, you

[00:49:23] see, you know, not only do you have the devastation of the earthquake, which.

[00:49:29] You know, does, does damage, but you have then because Japanese houses at this time are largely

[00:49:35] made of wood with, with paper doors and, and, and so forth.

[00:49:39] They're very flammable.

[00:49:41] Mm-hmm .

[00:49:41] And so immediately everything is on fire and.

[00:49:45] Mm-hmm .

[00:49:46] You know, he and, and, and others are trying to escape and, and get to safety, but it's through

[00:49:52] this, this, this haze, it's almost a, it's almost shot like a combat film.

[00:49:58] Mm-hmm .

[00:49:58] Yeah.

[00:49:59] Where you're, you're, you're immersed in that experience.

[00:50:03] And, and, and then later on, one of the horrible things that happened as a result of this was,

[00:50:13] you know, again, we talked about Koreans being a marginalized part of, of Japanese society.

[00:50:17] Mm-hmm .

[00:50:18] Mm-hmm .

[00:50:19] The, Japanese started, you know, there, there, there were rumors that Koreans were using the

[00:50:31] earthquake as a excuse to, you know, rob Japanese houses or so forth.

[00:50:39] And so we, we.

[00:50:40] We hear that all the time today.

[00:50:42] Yeah.

[00:50:42] Yes.

[00:50:43] So there ends up being vigilantes, Japanese vigilantes on the hunt for Koreans and then

[00:50:50] killing and, and, and, and, and, and beating them and all sorts of horrible things.

[00:50:54] So many Koreans die not as a, in Japan, uh, in, in the, in the Tokyo area, uh, die not as

[00:51:03] a result of the earthquake or fires itself, but because of the xenophobic fears that this

[00:51:12] event creates or, you know, helps kind of bring out in the Japanese.

[00:51:16] And so we see at the end of the episode, there's, uh, this scene where there's some Koreans who

[00:51:24] had, uh, escaped and were kind of on the run from a, a jail.

[00:51:28] And we're not really sure why they were in jail, but we can assume that, you know, the

[00:51:33] justice system is as flawed as it is other places.

[00:51:36] Uh, they're just trying to find a way to survive, but then there's a group of Japanese

[00:51:40] vigilantes that comes after them and, uh, Honsu has to hide.

[00:51:44] And it's this intense moment.

[00:51:47] And my students like with, you know, that, that was a great way, just that 20 minute period,

[00:51:54] uh, of the show to demonstrate all of these things.

[00:51:59] Cause he watches, they get burned alive while he's hiding somewhere else watching.

[00:52:02] Yeah.

[00:52:02] Yeah.

[00:52:03] The, the, the, the, the ones, um, uh, the, the, the, that are running end up running into

[00:52:09] an, uh, an empty barn and then get discovered and they, the Japanese vigilantes burn the barn

[00:52:14] down.

[00:52:15] Uh, while, while Honsu is hiding in a, in a cart of, of some kind.

[00:52:20] Um, so yeah, it's just, it's very powerful.

[00:52:24] Um, I had several of my students come up afterwards and ask about the show and start watching it.

[00:52:29] So, you know, doing my part to get it, uh, more viewership, uh, I guess, but, but, but yeah,

[00:52:36] it's that kind of thing that at me as a, as a historian and as an educator makes me love this show so much.

[00:52:43] Yeah.

[00:52:44] Yeah.

[00:52:44] For me as, you know, um, someone who's just approaching this more from the story perspective,

[00:52:49] what really struck me most about this episode is the tragedy of the fact that, so he is a,

[00:52:55] he's a nanny basically, a tutor, uh, for this, for this wealthy family.

[00:53:02] And they're going to.

[00:53:03] A wealthy American family.

[00:53:04] Wealthy American family.

[00:53:05] Yeah.

[00:53:05] And they're going to go back to America and they want him to come with them, uh, which is

[00:53:10] this fantastic opportunity for him.

[00:53:12] Um.

[00:53:13] Their failed son is going to Yale.

[00:53:15] Oh yeah.

[00:53:16] And, and they want him to go and do his homework.

[00:53:19] Do his homework.

[00:53:21] Right.

[00:53:22] But it says the, you know, his life could have taken a totally different path, but then

[00:53:26] this earthquake happens and all he gets out of it is he takes this watch off of his deceased,

[00:53:32] uh, the woman, the wife in the deceased employers.

[00:53:36] And, um, and he ends up winds up in the Yakuza, but that watch will keep an eye on that

[00:53:41] because that keeps coming back.

[00:53:42] Mm hmm.

[00:53:43] Absolutely.

[00:53:44] And there are so many watching the episode last night, I was struck by how many parallels

[00:53:50] and some things that they set up in season one that play out in season two.

[00:53:53] So going back to the idea of rewatch, you're like, Oh, Oh, Oh.

[00:53:57] And then you start to see how they're, they're making these connections.

[00:54:00] There's a scene in season two that I'm not going to describe, but I'm just going to reference

[00:54:05] in general.

[00:54:06] And, and this is part of what the show deals with his parents to children.

[00:54:11] And we see Sun Jaya's, uh, uh, father in the boat saying, you know, making this promise

[00:54:17] to her.

[00:54:17] And then later in, I'm going to cry.

[00:54:20] I swear to God, uh, in season two, this is an amazing scene, uh, that happens later.

[00:54:25] But here that the parallel scene is, um, uh, Hounsou's father, they're outside of this,

[00:54:32] um, baseball.

[00:54:33] I assume it's a baseball field and they're having a little Korean barbecue picnic.

[00:54:39] It's very sweet.

[00:54:40] And they're, they're struggling with, you know, uh, this thing of, of, uh, uh, Hounsou

[00:54:45] has this opportunity to be able to go to the United States and his father's encouraging

[00:54:49] him.

[00:54:49] And his father said, and he's like, I don't want to go.

[00:54:51] I need to stay.

[00:54:52] You're in financial trouble.

[00:54:54] I need to stay and work off your, help you work off the debt so that we're not in trouble

[00:54:57] with the Yakuza.

[00:54:59] And his father says, maybe it's time to shift our perspective.

[00:55:03] I'm going to cry.

[00:55:04] Why look down when you can soar up instead?

[00:55:08] It's time to look higher on Sue.

[00:55:11] You have a chance to do things.

[00:55:13] I never could.

[00:55:14] And then he says in the night sky, there are two stars.

[00:55:18] They may look close to one another, but in truth, they are far, far apart.

[00:55:23] But even so from down here, they look inseparable.

[00:55:27] Don't they?

[00:55:28] Mm-hmm.

[00:55:29] Do you think that's kind of like him and Sinja, the two stars?

[00:55:32] The whole thing.

[00:55:33] Right.

[00:55:33] And Solomon and everybody.

[00:55:36] Mm-hmm.

[00:55:36] And then later he has to beat his son to try to get him away.

[00:55:42] That tells him to stab, kill me in your heart so that you can go to America.

[00:55:46] Mm-hmm.

[00:55:46] But that aside, a big theme of this show is the promise of prosperity that children represent

[00:55:59] for their parents.

[00:56:01] Mm-hmm.

[00:56:01] Mm-hmm.

[00:56:03] And this idea that our children have these futures, if we can get them there, that will be greater than ours, that they will have greater economic prosperity, and that their prosperity can be shared with us.

[00:56:20] So your success is the community's success.

[00:56:23] Yeah.

[00:56:24] And it's a very powerful thing that's going on across this.

[00:56:29] And then there's the whole downfall of his father because he gave some money to a sex worker who gave it to somebody else.

[00:56:38] So she didn't.

[00:56:39] It was like this whole like really bad situation.

[00:56:42] And then he promises to his father that I'm never going to lose myself to a woman like you do.

[00:56:46] And of course, then he meets Sinjaya and then he loses himself in some ways, but he keeps himself at the same time.

[00:56:52] So it's this interesting thing.

[00:56:54] And then so then they're setting that up for these parent relationships in season two with Sinjaya and her children.

[00:57:01] That's not a big spoiler that she has kids.

[00:57:03] Yeah.

[00:57:04] I think also as well, and I won't say anything more than this because it would be a spoiler, but it also explains Hounsou's actions as we get towards the end of season two.

[00:57:20] Mm-hmm.

[00:57:20] And his, because he had that opportunity and it was taken away from him.

[00:57:26] Right.

[00:57:26] Mm-hmm.

[00:57:27] And he felt the weight of, you know, his father's expectations and all that.

[00:57:33] Right.

[00:57:33] And so now, again, the theme is that generational trauma being handed down.

[00:57:40] Right.

[00:57:40] And so I think I agree.

[00:57:42] Absolutely.

[00:57:42] It parallels what you were saying with Sinjaya and her children.

[00:57:49] Yeah.

[00:57:49] Her children.

[00:57:50] But also…

[00:57:51] She has the children this season, so we can say she has children.

[00:57:53] Yeah, yeah.

[00:57:54] That's true.

[00:57:54] Yeah.

[00:57:54] That's right.

[00:57:55] Noah and Musasu.

[00:57:57] Yeah.

[00:57:57] Yes.

[00:57:58] Noah's the older, Musasu's the younger.

[00:58:00] Yeah.

[00:58:01] But then it also gives us the background into Hounsou's actions towards the end of season two.

[00:58:10] Mm-hmm.

[00:58:11] And the watch, the origin story of the watch, which is key.

[00:58:14] Yeah.

[00:58:14] I thought it was really interesting.

[00:58:16] Sorry, Alicia, I'll come back.

[00:58:17] Or do you have something you want to add about the watch?

[00:58:19] I was just…

[00:58:19] Oh, no.

[00:58:20] I was just going to insert that this was also…

[00:58:23] This episode was the origin story of my love for Hounsou, my favorite character on

[00:58:27] the show.

[00:58:27] Judge me if you will.

[00:58:30] Well, that's like Nate said earlier, the beauty of the show is it's bittersweet.

[00:58:33] We're rooting for bad guys like the Penguin, right?

[00:58:36] Mm-hmm.

[00:58:36] We're rooting for, you know, complex moral characters.

[00:58:39] But he's…

[00:58:39] No spoilers for the Penguin finale, but Hounsou is not that.

[00:58:43] No, he's not that.

[00:58:44] No, no.

[00:58:44] For sure.

[00:58:45] He's definitely not that.

[00:58:46] No, no, no.

[00:58:47] But the whole point of like, oh, here's this character that we're structurally from a

[00:58:52] narrative point of view, we're supposed to root for and be attached to and we follow

[00:58:57] along, but yet they're like, whoa, you're doing stuff that you really shouldn't do.

[00:59:02] But Hounsou, you know, he is that mixed bag character of questionable morality.

[00:59:08] He's fascinating.

[00:59:09] Yeah, exactly.

[00:59:10] And I can't but help but see the parallels between Solomon and Hounsou.

[00:59:16] Mm-hmm.

[00:59:17] And as what happens to Solomon later in season two…

[00:59:21] Mm-hmm.

[00:59:21] And Solomon is Sunja's grandson.

[00:59:25] So Mosasu's son.

[00:59:26] Yeah.

[00:59:26] Right.

[00:59:27] And he exists in the modern timeline.

[00:59:29] Yeah.

[00:59:29] Yeah.

[00:59:31] But Nate, I thought something that was interesting, and again, avoiding spoilers until we get

[00:59:34] to season two, there's a big event that happens in Japan that levels society literally and figuratively

[00:59:42] and but also social convention.

[00:59:44] And it was interesting to see the how the fire, the earthquake and subsequent fire leveled

[00:59:49] the social convention between Hounsou and the Yakuza boss and how they kind of depended

[00:59:55] and leaned on each other and saved each other.

[00:59:58] Mm-hmm.

[00:59:58] But then when he gets to the family, his family, the Yakuza's family, he says, yeah, well,

[01:00:04] we're going to take care of Hounsou.

[01:00:05] And so, Hounsou, you can hang out with us for a while.

[01:00:07] You still got to pay off your dad's debts.

[01:00:10] Yep.

[01:00:11] And thus we see how Hounsou gets into the…

[01:00:16] Organized crime.

[01:00:17] … business in general.

[01:00:21] Yeah.

[01:00:21] … in that beautiful white suit that he has.

[01:00:25] He's always so impeccably dressed.

[01:00:27] Well, have either of you ever seen Tempopo?

[01:00:31] Tempopo?

[01:00:32] Oh, yeah.

[01:00:32] Oh, yeah.

[01:00:33] Yeah.

[01:00:33] And there's the whole food guy who's the gangster in the white suit and the food eating,

[01:00:37] the sexual food stuff.

[01:00:39] Yeah.

[01:00:39] Absolutely.

[01:00:40] Very, very reminiscent.

[01:00:42] Right.

[01:00:43] Okay.

[01:00:44] So, Alicia, do you want to advance the time clock and move us into the next era?

[01:00:49] So, now we're jumping back to Korea.

[01:00:53] So, we're talking about the 1920s to 1931, which is when we said Sanja leaves Korea.

[01:00:58] So, just to set up this part of the story.

[01:01:01] So, they have the boarding house and Sanja's life's basically between the boarding house.

[01:01:05] She works at the market, which comes back later, that she has this experience.

[01:01:09] And then the other thing we see her doing is, you know, they wash their clothes in the river.

[01:01:15] And it's this whole kind of social ritual.

[01:01:19] And Sanja's life is kind of simple, but sweet.

[01:01:22] And, yeah.

[01:01:23] And, yeah.

[01:01:23] Her mother's now a widow though.

[01:01:25] Her father has passed away.

[01:01:26] And, um, Ko Honsu, we just talked about surviving the earthquake and having that change the direction of his life.

[01:01:34] He is now a, he is a Korean Japanese trying to prove himself.

[01:01:39] And he's now been given a position of power through the Yakuza.

[01:01:43] Um, but we first meet him saving Sanja from a sexual assault.

[01:01:48] So, he comes in as a hero.

[01:01:51] And then they have this love affair.

[01:01:53] And then he doesn't, once she's pregnant, he's like, oh, by the way, I'm already married, but I would love to set you up as my side piece.

[01:02:02] I can't marry you.

[01:02:04] But, and she's like the nerve, you know, obviously she's not, she, uh, has too much pride for that.

[01:02:09] Uh, he ends up giving her that watch that he took from, you know, his, uh, deceased employer in the earthquake.

[01:02:16] And, um, and he's like, yeah, sorry, I'm already married.

[01:02:19] Uh, but, um, here's like this valuable thing because, you know, for our son, which it does turn out to be a son.

[01:02:27] Um, and yeah, this is a watch that goes through the story.

[01:02:30] But meanwhile, Sanja, she ends up meeting a sickly pastor.

[01:02:34] Who's just like a saint of a human being from the North named Isaac.

[01:02:38] And Isaac agrees to marry her knowing her condition.

[01:02:42] And that saves her obviously socially, but he's the one who's like, okay, I was going to Japan.

[01:02:47] So now you're coming with me to Japan.

[01:02:49] So I just noticed that Sanja story starts a lot with men saving her, you know?

[01:02:58] Yeah.

[01:02:58] Huh?

[01:02:59] And then as it develops, it becomes more and more about how she becomes the one to save herself and her family.

[01:03:05] Hmm.

[01:03:07] Hmm.

[01:03:07] I, I, I want to just jump in real quick.

[01:03:11] And like you, you, you mentioned, you know, Honsu is like, Oh, sorry, I'm married and whatever.

[01:03:18] And, you know, not to be too on Honsu side on, on, on things.

[01:03:24] Hmm.

[01:03:25] But, but you know, he is a complicated character.

[01:03:28] Hmm.

[01:03:28] What, what we learn, uh, is, is that, you know, he's married to, uh, it's not the same Yakuza boss that he starts out with, but it's somebody who is connected in the underworld.

[01:03:41] And, and he's married to, to that man's daughter and it's a marriage of, uh, Alliance.

[01:03:50] Yes.

[01:03:51] Yes.

[01:03:51] Convenience is not quite the right word.

[01:03:52] Alliance works, but you know, I kind of get the sense, uh, as the story develops that he's married to his wife because that's what he was told to do.

[01:04:03] Right.

[01:04:03] There's not a whole lot of love between them.

[01:04:06] He would rather be with Sandra.

[01:04:08] And do we, do we get a lot of that in season two or is that more, or is that more of a season two thing or more season two thing?

[01:04:12] We get a little bit.

[01:04:13] We get a little bit.

[01:04:14] Yeah.

[01:04:14] We get a little bit.

[01:04:15] Um, so I, you know, I won't go further than that, than, than that with it, but you know, there's, there's an element that I wonder with Honsu where, okay.

[01:04:27] So he's married into this Japanese family as a marriage of Alliance, as a tactical move to, you know, be what he has to be, uh, for, for his advancements and his, his career.

[01:04:41] So that, you know, and, and, and we should say his job is to go back and forth between Japan and Korea.

[01:04:49] And Busan is like right there, right?

[01:04:51] There's a direction.

[01:04:51] And Busan is, yeah.

[01:04:52] Very close.

[01:04:52] Busan is, is the port that's right across.

[01:04:54] Like, um, I think it's only like two hours or so by ferry, uh, today, you know, then they had slower ships, but, um,

[01:05:04] Straight shot.

[01:05:05] Easy to get across.

[01:05:06] Yeah.

[01:05:06] But it's, it's, it's very easy to get to.

[01:05:08] Um, and so his job was to go to Korea and purchase, uh, I mean, he's basically a, a, a, a high class fishmonger, right?

[01:05:16] Like he's, he's, he's trading in, in, uh, marine goods, uh, fish and seaweed and these sorts of things.

[01:05:25] Right.

[01:05:26] Um, and so for him, there's an element of going back in to Korea and seeing this young Korean woman that he becomes enamored with, Sunja.

[01:05:37] Uh, and you know, it's, it's almost that his attraction to Sunja is, is a connection to his own roots.

[01:05:49] Yep.

[01:05:49] And identity.

[01:05:51] Yep.

[01:05:51] That he doesn't, that he isn't allowed to kind of act out in his own married relationship.

[01:05:58] Literally allowed.

[01:05:59] Right.

[01:05:59] He can't be Korean in Japanese society.

[01:06:02] He has to conform to Japanese society.

[01:06:04] Right.

[01:06:06] So, so, you know, it's easy on the surface to just look at it as like, Oh, Hounsou, what a creep.

[01:06:12] He, you know, he didn't even bother telling her that he was married and, and so forth, but it's, you know, and, and not to say that that isn't an L, an emotion we should feel about it.

[01:06:24] And I mean, right.

[01:06:24] You know, that's perfectly valid, but also it's so complicated both emotionally and just like with the, the, the, the connections.

[01:06:33] So I, I wanted to, you know, and the.

[01:06:36] Pull that apart a little bit.

[01:06:37] Yeah, for sure.

[01:06:38] And then from a vibe standpoint, these two people, Sunjaya and Hounsou are just, the chemistry between them is instantaneously.

[01:06:46] And then from a, the moment he sees her, when she's still a little bit young for him to be like thinking about her, he cannot help but see the spark that she is, the flame that her character is amongst this crowded fish market.

[01:06:59] Boom, he's locked in.

[01:07:02] And then when they meet, it's that friction, that fire, that, that, that connectivity that is great of, of great loves.

[01:07:11] Right.

[01:07:12] And there's, there's, there's, there's another woman who's in the same area who comes from a wealthy family.

[01:07:19] And so I dress nicely and is trying to get his attention.

[01:07:22] That's right.

[01:07:23] Because she obviously sees, you know, value in him.

[01:07:26] And, you know, the, whereas Sunjaya is, is, you know, from a very humble background is very humbly dressed is like, there's nothing that like walking down the street in the fish market, you would see her necessarily and go, she's top class.

[01:07:43] She's the one I have to have.

[01:07:44] So it is that internal, you know, spark that, that he identifies and becomes attracted to.

[01:07:51] You know what my Native American name is that I would apply to her is walks tall woman.

[01:08:00] Yep.

[01:08:01] Sunjaya absolutely is that right.

[01:08:03] She just is, even when she's a child, her bearing, she walks through the market and everyone just is connected to her and she, they see her.

[01:08:12] She's an amazing person.

[01:08:14] Well, just one note before we move forward into the new Japanese life for Sunjaya.

[01:08:20] Nate, you had a note that in 1931, which is the year when again, Sunjaya moves to Osaka.

[01:08:26] It's the year that Japan set up a puppet state in Manchuria.

[01:08:29] Oh, wow.

[01:08:30] Right.

[01:08:31] So, yeah, there's a lot going on.

[01:08:34] I mean, this, the whole, whole span of the show is there's a lot of tectonic historical moments and this is one of them.

[01:08:41] She's moving to Japan at the same time.

[01:08:45] Uh, Japan was, it's easy to say that Japan was, you know, had imperial designs and was, was, was, was expanding.

[01:08:59] And that is true.

[01:09:01] But the, what actually happens is there's elements of the Japanese military, uh, specifically, you know, after, uh, the, the, the rest of the Japanese war, Japan gained control of the rail lines, the South Manchurian railway.

[01:09:18] And so as part of that, uh, they were allowed to station a garrison, uh, along the railway for its protection.

[01:09:28] Uh, and this becomes known as the Kwantung army.

[01:09:31] Uh, well, there's elements of the Kwantung army, uh, that, uh, want to then extend, extend Japan's reach and take Manchuria.

[01:09:45] The idea being that Manchuria is this vast territory that they can separate from China itself and use, you know, there's, there's abundant natural resources there.

[01:09:58] Japan is very poor in natural resources, particularly the kind of natural resources you need to build modern weapons and ships and planes and, and so forth.

[01:10:08] Uh, and so if they can create a pretext and then seize Manchuria, then they would have that as not only the resources, but as, as territory for colonization, they can move Japanese to the area.

[01:10:24] They can develop, uh, the agriculture and gives them more food.

[01:10:27] And the idea that they need this in order to keep up with Western powers, whether it's, you know, the United States or the Soviet Union.

[01:10:38] And be able to defend Japan.

[01:10:40] Mm hmm.

[01:10:41] So they create, uh, a, a, a, a, they actually bomb their own train line, uh, in order to create this pretext for that.

[01:10:55] And so this is all going on in the background of Sunja's story.

[01:11:01] So, you know, we see little bits and pieces of increased militaristic presence of the Japanese troops and so forth.

[01:11:09] And it's not directly referenced, but I do think it's important to understand, like, as we get into the part where, you know, she's leaving Korea and moving to Japan, Japan is becoming increasingly militaristic.

[01:11:23] It's becoming increasingly, uh, aggressive.

[01:11:27] Uh, and you know, all of this is obviously going to lead to, you know, I, I mean, I don't think World War II happening is a spoiler, uh, at this point.

[01:11:36] So, but that's where we're headed.

[01:11:39] Mm hmm.

[01:11:39] Yeah.

[01:11:40] Yeah.

[01:11:41] All right.

[01:11:41] This seems like a good time to take a quick break.

[01:11:45] So let's do that.

[01:11:46] And when we come back, we'll carry on with a timeline.

[01:11:49] Two, three, four.

[01:12:01] And we are back.

[01:12:04] Alicia, why didn't you carry on with the timeline for us?

[01:12:07] Yeah.

[01:12:08] So in 1930s, Japan, we, we get to see, uh, Sunja has, as we said, the, these two kids.

[01:12:15] So first, her first son, Noah is with Honsu.

[01:12:20] Um, but, but Isaac takes, you know, ownership of the father ship.

[01:12:26] He basically says that to my son and nobody is supposed to know anything differently.

[01:12:30] Obviously such things eventually get out.

[01:12:31] But, uh, so, and she has a, another son, Mosasu with, uh, with Isaac.

[01:12:38] So we have these two boys and Mosasu being the younger one.

[01:12:41] Um, I thought it was interesting.

[01:12:43] I didn't know much about this.

[01:12:44] I've seen similar reference references to similar things, but this dojabi, um, ceremony

[01:12:50] where a Korean ceremony, where a child is given a selection of objects and whichever one they choose says something about their future.

[01:12:58] So he chose the red thread, which means a long life, which is interesting because when we get to the 1980s part of this timeline, he's around and his older brother is not.

[01:13:08] Now we learn more of his older brother's life in the second season, but it's just interesting.

[01:13:12] Um, and then yeah, Isaac, he gets a little interested too interested in, um, you know, the discussion of Korean independence and he ends up getting arrested.

[01:13:25] We'll find out more about that arrest also in season two, but, um, his brother, Yosup, who is the one who ends up.

[01:13:33] Yeah. We, we also, we haven't talked about Kyung Yi yet.

[01:13:35] She is the wife of Yosup and becomes like best friends with Sunja.

[01:13:40] She's comes from a very different wealthy background.

[01:13:42] So it's sort of an odd couple, but they are, you know, they have each other's backs through all this stuff.

[01:13:48] Um, and she, well, we'll get to 1989.

[01:13:52] Well, I guess we can talk about it now, but she, she dies at the beginning in 1989.

[01:13:56] And that's the character I was saying, like, you don't realize how important of a character that is until you see more of the past payout.

[01:14:03] Right.

[01:14:03] Um, but yeah, Yosup, he loses his job and, um, he, and then Sunja, she, this is the first time she's like, okay, I'm going to save the family because he had taken out money in order to bring over Sunja.

[01:14:16] Um, because she was an extra unexpected person coming with his brother and he can't pay it back because he loses jobs.

[01:14:23] So Sunja goes and pawns that watch that Honsu gave her and Honsu secretly buys it back.

[01:14:28] So it's going to turn up again later.

[01:14:31] Um, if, if I can.

[01:14:32] One of those good guy moments for Honsu.

[01:14:34] Yeah.

[01:14:35] If I could just step in for a second, you mentioned that, uh, that, that, that Isak and, and, uh, Yosup are, are from the north and, and Kyunghee as well.

[01:14:46] And I think this is an important, um, cultural aspect that isn't necessarily, uh, come out, but I think is an, is a, is a, is a, it's a sign of the detail that they put into the show.

[01:15:00] Uh, generally at this time, the north of Korea is more well-developed, uh, particularly industrially.

[01:15:07] Proximity to, to China?

[01:15:09] Um, proximity to resources.

[01:15:13] Okay.

[01:15:13] In general.

[01:15:14] So, so yes.

[01:15:15] So the South is more agricultural.

[01:15:17] Got it.

[01:15:17] Okay.

[01:15:18] And the North is where, um, certainly under the Japanese, more industrial, uh, development is, you know, there's more infrastructure and so forth.

[01:15:28] Uh, but also than that, like you, you, you, you mentioned that, uh, that they come from a kind of, or that Kyunghee comes from a wealthier family.

[01:15:36] So do, uh, Isak and Yosup.

[01:15:39] And that's what allows them or allows Isak, uh, in general to be a pastor, um, is that they have the, the wealth and ability to do that.

[01:15:53] Um, they moved to Japan or, you know, uh, uh, uh, Yosup and Kyunghee are already in Japan and Isak is going there as the pastor to the local Korean community.

[01:16:05] Mm-hmm.

[01:16:06] Um, and so there's an interesting dynamic where they're, when they're in Japan, of course, they're part of the Korean community, which as we've said a couple times now is marginalized.

[01:16:16] Mm-hmm.

[01:16:17] So there's a, there's a class element that they are having to struggle with, particularly Yosup and his, we see his pride in, you know, having come from a wealthier background in Korea, but then having to take out loans in Japan.

[01:16:34] And, and then, um, there's the, the, the class element of it.

[01:16:40] And there's also the idea as a Korean man in growing up in this heavily Confucian culture, uh, that he, it's his job to take care of the family and do all these things.

[01:16:50] And so when Sunja makes the money to pay back the loan, it's, he, he, he's angry because he sees that as an affront to his masculinity.

[01:17:00] Mm-hmm.

[01:17:01] Uh, and, and so I, I think, just think that's a very interesting dynamic that they're going on.

[01:17:07] Kyunghee herself has moments where you can tell she comes from this background of privilege.

[01:17:13] Right.

[01:17:13] She's always overcoming snobbery.

[01:17:15] Right.

[01:17:16] And so Sunja being injected into their family, she obviously did not come from privilege.

[01:17:21] And so it was very often the, the voice of practical reason in the, look, we've got to do this because you do what you need to do to survive.

[01:17:30] And Kyunghee will be like, oh, I don't know.

[01:17:33] But what does the neighbors think?

[01:17:35] And so that's another social dynamic that's going on that they've nailed.

[01:17:39] Yeah.

[01:17:40] So.

[01:17:41] Yeah.

[01:17:42] And you are, I'm sorry.

[01:17:43] Oh, I was going to say that, that brings up the whole survival thing.

[01:17:46] And that brings up the whole, um, kimchi, uh, and food thing.

[01:17:49] But you were going to say something else.

[01:17:51] We can circle back on that.

[01:17:52] Well, I was, before, before we got to that, I was going to ask Nate about, um, when Isak is arrested, you said 1938, that's a year after war starts with China.

[01:18:01] Do you think that plays a role in what's going on with the Koreans in Japan as well?

[01:18:07] I do.

[01:18:09] And I think that there's, so 1937, uh, there's another incident, which the Japanese army stages in order to, uh, you know, justify seizing more territory from China.

[01:18:21] Uh, the difference is this time China does not, you know, just simply give them the territory.

[01:18:26] So, uh, you know, Japan goes into this, into, into this war with the military largely thinking that they'll get an easy victory.

[01:18:33] It turns into a, a war that lasts until, you know, 1945 and, and we'll get to what happens with that later.

[01:18:41] But, um, again, just the backdrop of Japan getting sucked more and more into, uh, conflict, right?

[01:18:53] Thus tightening its control internally to, uh, suppress all sorts of dissent and whatever, including the dissent of the Korean community that is being, uh, excuse me, controlled by Japan.

[01:19:10] So, so when we see the arrest, you know, things are kind of ramping up and that's the historical background under which we see all this stuff, you know, um, things that might have passed earlier are, are being clamped down upon because of everything that's going on in the international situation.

[01:19:29] Right.

[01:19:30] Yeah.

[01:19:31] And then, yeah, as you were saying, David, so Yosup ends up going off to take a job in a munitions factory in Nagasaki.

[01:19:39] I guess that happens later, but at this point, Sunja, she starts, she's like, well, what do I, how can I get money for our family?

[01:19:47] Because we obviously we need it.

[01:19:48] And, um, she's like, what do I know how to do?

[01:19:50] So she starts making kimchi, which I just love the way that's kind of, that's how this part of the timeline ends in the first season is her at the market, just like yelling out and getting louder and louder, getting attention for it.

[01:20:03] But she has to teach the Japanese to, cause kimchi is a very Korean dish.

[01:20:08] And so she has to get past the local prejudice and get people.

[01:20:12] I mean, I love it.

[01:20:13] It's like, it's addictive, but you know, I can imagine, um, yeah, you have to get past that first prejudice to try it.

[01:20:20] And then later, and I, uh, again, avoiding season two, but just in, in season one, food is a key component to Sinjaya's family's life.

[01:20:31] The boarding house that they run, what does it know?

[01:20:33] One of the reasons that it's known is they cook up some damn good food and everybody who stays there is well fed.

[01:20:40] And, um, and, and throughout Sinjaya's life, food is this cornerstone.

[01:20:46] She could feed her family, not only feed her family, but provide for her family.

[01:20:50] But then the whole thing that food is a cultural marker.

[01:20:53] It's this traditions that we pass down, the oral histories, the time we spend together, the time that we eat together, this very common human experience activity.

[01:21:04] And so I love that they use food, but they don't make food to the story because we're in a very foodie cult.

[01:21:11] You know, the Zeitgeist has a lot of chefs and, you know, all kinds of, you know, stuff, but it just forms this beautiful little cornerstone that becomes so important to the history of the family.

[01:21:20] No, I was just going to add that, um, you know, you, you, you mentioned that she has to convince the, the, the Japanese and kind of advertise to get them to try it.

[01:21:29] You know, I mean, I think probably most people nowadays are familiar with kimchi as a concept, but it's a very, you know, it's a fermented dish, uh, uh, fermented pickled dish.

[01:21:40] Powerful dish.

[01:21:41] Usually.

[01:21:42] Cabbage.

[01:21:43] Cabbage, but not always.

[01:21:44] Uh, it, you know, it can be various kinds of vegetables, but it's, um, you know, vinegar and garlic and, uh, Korean pepper spices.

[01:21:53] And it's delicious, but it certainly does, uh, the garlic especially leaves a, a, a, a, a smell on your breath.

[01:22:03] Right.

[01:22:04] That if you're not used to, it can be, you know, overpowering.

[01:22:07] I remember mornings in Korea, uh, getting up and going to physical training in the army and our, our Korean soldiers that we had with us would have, you know, chopped down some kimchi to, to, to start their day.

[01:22:22] And, you know, you're about to go run three miles or whatever.

[01:22:26] And, and, and it, it, it can be a bit overwhelming, you know, I'm not trying to be culturally insensitive.

[01:22:31] It just, it, it's there.

[01:22:33] So if you have strong, which you grew up with.

[01:22:36] Yeah.

[01:22:37] Right.

[01:22:37] But if, if you have already a preexisting bias against a, a culture, then you're going to use something like that as a, uh, uh, as, so we, we, well, I'll hold off on that.

[01:22:50] But, um, but, but, but that's a part of the context for her trying, you know, on the one hand, when she's speaking in Korean and trying to attract Korean customers, she's saying, Hey, come, come get this taste of home.

[01:23:03] But, and then when she's speaking in Japanese to Japanese customers, she's like, Hey, try this, try this new thing.

[01:23:09] Trust me, you'll like it.

[01:23:11] Uh, and, and, and that's, I think, you know, a pretty fascinating way to use that.

[01:23:16] I mean, Japan has some, uh, strong natto.

[01:23:20] We talked about a lot of natto in, uh, in Shogun.

[01:23:23] So all cultures have these real.

[01:23:25] Right.

[01:23:26] Oh, absolutely.

[01:23:27] You know?

[01:23:27] Yeah.

[01:23:28] Lutefisk.

[01:23:28] But it's just what you, yeah, it's just what you grew up with, you know?

[01:23:31] Yeah.

[01:23:31] It's like the same reason why I will always think Vegemite is disgusting.

[01:23:35] So, and it forms, you know, it's part of our, um, geographic lifestyle as well.

[01:23:43] What, what, what resources are available?

[01:23:45] What are the curing or cooking or preparation methods that are available given the, the, the

[01:23:50] latitude and longitude and all of these kinds of things.

[01:23:52] And that's the beauty of the variations that we have.

[01:23:55] So.

[01:23:55] Well, and I think all of us now, you know, I mean, you know, we've all said that we, we

[01:24:00] quite enjoy kimchi and whatever, but I mean, I remember growing up and, and there were still

[01:24:05] people who were like, I can't believe anybody would eat raw fish.

[01:24:09] Sushi.

[01:24:10] Oh, you know?

[01:24:11] Yeah.

[01:24:11] And, and now it's everywhere.

[01:24:13] Right.

[01:24:13] So.

[01:24:14] Right.

[01:24:15] So Nate and Alicia, I have a little note for the listeners here.

[01:24:19] Maybe I can see that we're about an hour 20 into our recording.

[01:24:22] We're nowhere near done with season one and we're not going to get season two in true

[01:24:27] lorehounds fashion.

[01:24:28] What do you guys think about finishing up season one, breaking the podcast and then coming back

[01:24:33] for a whole separate episode, just where we can deep dive into season two.

[01:24:37] How does that sound?

[01:24:38] That sounds like the best thing for us and the best thing for the listeners as well.

[01:24:43] Agreed.

[01:24:43] Agreed.

[01:24:43] Three hour podcast.

[01:24:45] We haven't hit it yet.

[01:24:46] We've come close, but we're not going to do it.

[01:24:47] I think we all, and today is a busy day probably for all of us.

[01:24:51] So, so let's kind of speed through this last section, Alicia.

[01:24:54] Okay.

[01:24:55] And then we'll hit some, our favorite notes and then anything that's left on the table,

[01:24:58] we'll, we'll pick up in season two.

[01:24:59] Okay.

[01:25:00] So the last time period for season one is, is, you know, all this stuff is part of the

[01:25:06] past time period.

[01:25:07] And then the quote unquote present all takes place in 1989.

[01:25:11] And this centers around, like I said, we have Sunja's now a grandmother.

[01:25:15] Her son Musasu is still there and he has his own son Solomon who, so these are the three

[01:25:21] main characters and Solomon works for this American bank called Shifley's.

[01:25:25] And he's recently been turned down for a promotion and he feels the need to prove himself.

[01:25:31] And, um, there's this land deal that comes up and, uh, where he is supposed to get this

[01:25:38] woman to sell.

[01:25:40] And the reason they ask him is because she's a Korean Japanese or I'm sorry, what was the

[01:25:43] term you used?

[01:25:45] Zionichi Korean.

[01:25:46] Zionichi.

[01:25:46] I, can I, can I offer one minor, uh, um, perspective, alteration on their perspective?

[01:25:53] Okay.

[01:25:53] He knows that she's Korean and he volunteers himself because he thinks he can pull the

[01:25:58] deal together and then get his promotion and backdate the promotion to the meeting time.

[01:26:04] Yeah.

[01:26:04] And on that, I, it's interesting because when he's at that initial meeting in New York,

[01:26:10] uh, his, you know, boss or counterparts or whoever he's talking, you know, the people

[01:26:15] that he's talking to about this, superiors, right.

[01:26:17] Um, they don't know that he's Korean.

[01:26:22] They, they're like, but you're Japanese.

[01:26:24] Why?

[01:26:25] You know, how do you, how do you have an in on this deal?

[01:26:27] Right.

[01:26:27] How do you have an angle on this?

[01:26:29] Like, and, and, and so we see right off the bat, this kind of not only duality of, of,

[01:26:36] of identity, but the, the choices of how you identify yourself.

[01:26:40] You know, he was born in Japan, grew up in Japan.

[01:26:43] So in New York, he's identified as a Japanese person because I most likely because, um,

[01:26:50] you know, for him to explain, well, actually I'm of Korean ancestry and in Japan, they classify

[01:26:57] us as Koreans and not Japanese, even though I was born, that's way too much for an American

[01:27:01] to understand.

[01:27:02] Right.

[01:27:03] So, but, but that little bit gives you that kind of ambiguity of identity and the shifting

[01:27:11] nature of it, which I think is fascinating.

[01:27:13] And then the beauty of the fact that, that, um, a whole bunch of the story, uh, with Noah,

[01:27:19] which we'll talk about more in season two, um, but also with Honsu coming to America literally

[01:27:26] as a chance to wipe the, the socioeconomic, uh, nationality, you know, in your sort of

[01:27:35] race.

[01:27:35] I hate to use the word race because it's a race that we're one human race, but anyway,

[01:27:38] they're going to deal with some shit in America anyway, but yeah, yeah.

[01:27:41] That you, he would be able to exactly like it is happening at Solomon's bank there is he's

[01:27:47] just a dude from Asia.

[01:27:49] They don't know one or the other.

[01:27:51] So you can start again.

[01:27:52] And I know race is calm and the rate, the history of race is complex in America.

[01:27:56] So I'm not trying to boil that down, but just the, the, the point that as so many immigrants

[01:28:02] have come to the United States, that it's the opportunity to reset your family's, uh,

[01:28:08] fortunes and have opportunities that your parents will never have had the opportunity of having.

[01:28:14] And that's another consistent theme.

[01:28:16] Yeah.

[01:28:17] Yeah.

[01:28:18] And we've talked about a bit already how Solomon, we compared him to Honsu,

[01:28:22] how he's a bit of a gray character or morality.

[01:28:25] Um, and so he actually, he ends up like trying to.

[01:28:28] Do you think his human heart is in conflict with itself?

[01:28:30] I mean, I think that's, that's the only thing it does.

[01:28:34] Um, but he, he ends up getting his grandmother involved in this situation, you know, to use

[01:28:41] her to try to convince the other woman.

[01:28:43] And then, and it seems to be working.

[01:28:45] And then he has a, you know, he has a, um, crisis of conscious when the woman is about

[01:28:53] to sign over her property and she turns to Solomon and asks in Korean, what, what would

[01:28:59] you tell your grandmother to do?

[01:29:01] And he says, I would tell her no.

[01:29:03] And that just shuts it down.

[01:29:04] He ruins, it blows up his career, blows up the deal.

[01:29:08] Just in that one moment of him being honest with like, I would not tell my grandmother

[01:29:12] to do this.

[01:29:14] Incredible.

[01:29:15] An incredible moment, an incredible character arc for him to be sitting there and to, to

[01:29:21] have that moment of, of honesty and clarity strip away.

[01:29:25] Cause he's a, he's a rising star in New York city and he's destined for, you know, you know,

[01:29:32] he's climbing the ladder and he's good and he's good at what he does.

[01:29:35] And to have that moment of, of pure humanity, of relating to another human being and the

[01:29:42] monstrosity that he's affecting on other people through his, um, uh, uh, his, his intensity

[01:29:50] around capitalism and self gain and, and promoting.

[01:29:54] Cause he's using the bank for his own ends.

[01:29:56] He's not, he doesn't care about the bank.

[01:29:59] The bank is just his path to whatever it is that he wants economically.

[01:30:03] But it's, it's interesting though, because we have that and we have this moment of him

[01:30:08] recognizing the, the, the, the, the importance of this, this, uh, you know, holding onto this

[01:30:15] house and this land for this, for this woman.

[01:30:17] And, and he, you know, putting, being put on the spot of what would your grant, what would

[01:30:21] you tell your grandmother and saying that.

[01:30:24] But then immediately afterwards, when he talks to Soonja about it, he blames her.

[01:30:29] He's angry at her for making him feel this emotion that blows up his career.

[01:30:39] So it's not like he turns from a heel into a hero.

[01:30:43] He's very, still very gray.

[01:30:45] I mean, in some ways it gets worse, but we'll get to that.

[01:30:48] A hundred percent.

[01:30:49] A hundred percent.

[01:30:50] Um, but it is, so speaking of Soonja and speaking of David, what you were saying about

[01:30:54] the role that food plays in this, uh, one of my favorite bits from the first season

[01:30:59] is when she is going to the woman that they're buying the house from, she is going there with,

[01:31:06] with him and she tastes the rice and she's like, Oh my God, this is Korean rice.

[01:31:09] This is not Japanese rice.

[01:31:11] This is Korean rice.

[01:31:12] And she has this whole soliloquy about, you know, Korean rice and how it's better and,

[01:31:19] and different and how the Japanese took it away from them.

[01:31:22] And they were kept the best for themselves basically.

[01:31:26] And it almost feels like this is the trigger where she ultimately, she travels back to Korea

[01:31:32] for the first time in decades, taking her son and also to spread, you know, we, we talked

[01:31:36] about Kyunggi has died at this point in the timeline.

[01:31:38] So she takes her ashes to spread and, and confronts her life there.

[01:31:43] Yeah.

[01:31:44] Uh, and, and that powerful visceral, uh, those, those sensory inputs that we can't, you know,

[01:31:52] hearing and taste and smell, excuse me, marker.

[01:31:57] Sorry.

[01:32:00] Those powerful sensory inputs that we can't control things that we taste or smell or hear,

[01:32:07] they go right in and they just activate.

[01:32:10] And she knows this rice from this region, she's got it zeroed in.

[01:32:15] And I, I will absolutely a hundred percent vouch for the idea that Korean rice and Japanese

[01:32:20] rice tastes different.

[01:32:22] You know, if you're not, if you, if you, you, you're not tuned into the difference that

[01:32:27] it may just say, well, rice is rice.

[01:32:29] That's absolutely not the case.

[01:32:30] It is different.

[01:32:31] They're grown in similar fashion, but the water makes a difference.

[01:32:36] Sure.

[01:32:36] The trace minerals.

[01:32:37] Yeah.

[01:32:38] Everything.

[01:32:39] Same with wine, right?

[01:32:39] You can tell the difference.

[01:32:41] The terroir, yeah.

[01:32:42] And even, uh, you know, I have more experience in Japan.

[01:32:46] So even within Japan, there's different varieties and local, uh, uh, differences and so forth.

[01:32:53] But that's very much something that you, that, that resonates the idea that, you know, somebody,

[01:33:00] uh, from Korea, even so many years later would taste Korean rice and immediately know the

[01:33:06] difference and have that trigger and emotion.

[01:33:08] Yeah.

[01:33:08] A hundred percent.

[01:33:10] Yeah.

[01:33:10] Yeah.

[01:33:11] Yeah.

[01:33:12] Yeah.

[01:33:12] Yeah.

[01:33:12] Yeah.

[01:33:12] So we have to talk about also Mosasu.

[01:33:14] We have something set up where he's working with this guy, uh, Yoshi, who we'll learn more

[01:33:22] about in the next season, but he takes up alone.

[01:33:24] He takes out alone to open another pachinko parlor.

[01:33:27] Uh, and Yoshi express interest in developing land and just putting that out there.

[01:33:31] I don't think there's much more to say about that now, but it becomes important in season

[01:33:34] two.

[01:33:35] Um, and then the final part, uh, of this plot for season two is what a gut punch.

[01:33:41] It's about, uh, Solomon had this friend as a child named Hannah and Solomon, basically

[01:33:49] Hannah was sent away because she was deemed a bad influence on Solomon.

[01:33:53] And she eventually she goes to the U S and so she allegedly has that, that shot that they've

[01:34:00] all been glamorizing.

[01:34:01] You know, they would change everything.

[01:34:03] If I could get to the U S she gets to the U S and she comes back and she ends up working

[01:34:06] as a prostitute and she ends up getting AIDS.

[01:34:09] And the season is the, this part of the end of the timeline of the season is about giving

[01:34:15] her comfort and giving Solomon comfort also in a way, uh, as she's dying.

[01:34:20] And her mom is also dating Solomon's dad.

[01:34:24] So that's a whole thing, but that doesn't come up in season two.

[01:34:27] So I don't know.

[01:34:28] Any thoughts on that?

[01:34:30] You know, it's, it's an interesting plot element because it really, it doesn't follow

[01:34:36] any of our main characters and it brings in this whole side story that's then interwoven

[01:34:41] and you're like, wait, who's Hannah's mom and how is she, you know, because they, there

[01:34:45] is no exposition in this show.

[01:34:49] You are dropped in media res.

[01:34:50] You are like, you swim and learn and figure it out and go online.

[01:34:54] And, and, and, uh, this is a good show for a show guide if we ever got around to that.

[01:34:59] And, um, so I got really confused.

[01:35:01] I'm like, what is this whole storyline?

[01:35:04] And I'm still processing it.

[01:35:06] I would have to rewatch the whole season again from front to back.

[01:35:08] I only was able to dip in before we record.

[01:35:12] And why is her storyline there?

[01:35:14] What is the importance of that?

[01:35:16] What is the important of, uh, you know, uh, obviously the AIDS crisis and how it affected

[01:35:20] other places.

[01:35:21] So this show deals with big historical moments, earthquakes and wars and other things.

[01:35:27] AIDS is, is a, was a big thing.

[01:35:30] It still is a big thing.

[01:35:32] Um, but then what does it do for us for Solomon?

[01:35:36] Because ultimately the show keeps bringing us back to the here and the now or the more

[01:35:41] modern timeframe because that's the future of this family.

[01:35:45] And so what are they, how is this moment used to illuminate Solomon's character and his

[01:35:54] humanity and who he is?

[01:35:56] Because as we know, season two gets a little difficult for Solomon with a few things.

[01:36:02] I, I, I don't have a whole ton of, of things to say about this because I, like, like you

[01:36:08] said, David, I, I find its inclusion a little bit confusing, um, just because it doesn't seem

[01:36:14] to tie to anything else.

[01:36:15] But the one thing I think it does do is give us a little bit of understanding.

[01:36:20] Well, the AIDS epidemic at that time.

[01:36:21] Yeah.

[01:36:21] Yeah.

[01:36:21] Well, yeah, no, I mean, it, it certainly ties into, into that and it helps places, you

[01:36:26] know, it helps with the context of understanding, you know, it's 1989.

[01:36:29] All of this is going on globally.

[01:36:31] Um, but we see, so it's very clear that, that Solomon kind of carried a flame for Hannah,

[01:36:40] you know, through the course of the season, he, he, he has intermittent contact with her.

[01:36:45] He's trying to find her.

[01:36:46] She's avoiding him, uh, likely because, you know, she's into, she has moved into the world

[01:36:53] of sex work, uh, and so forth.

[01:36:56] And then this giving him like her, her death at the end kind of closes that door for him,

[01:37:03] which may or may not affect kind of the dark path.

[01:37:08] He goes down later on.

[01:37:10] Um, I don't know.

[01:37:12] I'm kind of reaching, trying to make sense of it myself, but.

[01:37:15] I think that's one.

[01:37:16] And I'm assuming that comes from the books.

[01:37:18] I'm not sure, but I, I think that's one that might, it might become clearer there because

[01:37:21] I'm also just like, well, what happened to her mom?

[01:37:23] Because we didn't see, we didn't see her at all in season two, did we?

[01:37:28] No, no.

[01:37:29] Right.

[01:37:29] Right.

[01:37:29] Um, but I, I mean, it was, it was incredibly emotional and I guess it showed, I guess we

[01:37:36] should take away maybe also a part of his heart died with her because we should also mention

[01:37:41] that Anna Sawai does play, um, a character in season one as does, what's his name?

[01:37:47] Uh, Jimmy Smith.

[01:37:49] Um, Jimmy Simpson.

[01:37:51] Sorry.

[01:37:52] Yeah.

[01:37:52] Yeah.

[01:37:53] Jimmy.

[01:37:53] And, and so they play two of his colleagues and Anna Sawai is someone who, if anyone,

[01:37:58] when she, um, played Mariko in Shogun and you know, yeah, we love her.

[01:38:03] Um, and so she.

[01:38:05] Such a great actor.

[01:38:06] Yeah.

[01:38:06] So she, there's almost, you can see there's almost a flirtation starting between them,

[01:38:10] but he is not open to that because he's just obsessed with Hannah.

[01:38:15] Yeah.

[01:38:15] Yeah.

[01:38:16] Yeah.

[01:38:16] So I think it, it does a lot for, for that.

[01:38:18] So it's one of those historical things and then it's also Solomon in, in Solomon's

[01:38:23] humanity and he's becoming.

[01:38:25] Right.

[01:38:25] So.

[01:38:26] So, well, um, should we start to wrap up and maybe give some final thoughts about season

[01:38:32] one?

[01:38:32] Alicia, do you want to kick us off?

[01:38:34] Uh, yeah.

[01:38:35] So just, I think that it was a, uh, strong opening to the season in 1915.

[01:38:41] I was almost sad that we skipped forward so quickly, but then like, I love their casting

[01:38:46] is amazing because I love Sunja at every age.

[01:38:49] Um, and yeah.

[01:38:54] And imagine the casting work that they had to do to find people who could not only, you

[01:39:00] know, look like that's the stretch, you know, the, the stretch of age.

[01:39:04] Yeah.

[01:39:04] But then also match the energy and the tone and the mannerisms that acting on this show

[01:39:08] is on point.

[01:39:10] It is incredible.

[01:39:11] Right.

[01:39:12] Yeah.

[01:39:12] No.

[01:39:12] And I, I, it's funny to think back on this because you know, you were saying in some

[01:39:16] way season two is easier, but I don't know.

[01:39:18] I I'm with Sunja and I'm with Honsu when, you know, in season two, they're in certain

[01:39:23] moments, they're looking back on like, Oh, remember when we were just in the cove watching,

[01:39:27] watching laundry?

[01:39:28] I'm like, Oh, the innocent days.

[01:39:31] Yes, exactly.

[01:39:31] But yeah, I think Solomon gets worse in season two.

[01:39:35] We've alluded to that.

[01:39:36] Um, I just think overall, like there's such a high rewatch value for this show.

[01:39:41] Uh, I I'm definitely, I'm going to read the book as soon as I can and then go back and

[01:39:45] rewatch the whole thing so far.

[01:39:47] Right on.

[01:39:47] Yeah.

[01:39:48] What about you, David?

[01:39:50] Um, this is one of those shows that came out of nowhere and took me by surprise.

[01:39:56] And I love it so much because it's the, it's this marriage, uh, it's this welding together

[01:40:01] of this unconventional narrative structure and storytelling.

[01:40:05] And just in terms of like, it's not, you know, it breaks a traditional, like historical

[01:40:10] front to back old, you know, to, to new and it weaves together.

[01:40:14] And I don't always understand why they cut one scene into another.

[01:40:18] What does, what do they do with those?

[01:40:20] But it does something and you can feel the vibrations of the emotional energy going from

[01:40:26] past to present and back to past into a different past.

[01:40:29] And to edit that kind of show together, that kind of vision, that kind of creative vision

[01:40:35] and holding that space for that show is incredible.

[01:40:40] And it's an incredible amount of work by the people who are putting this thing together.

[01:40:46] And then just as much as I love our, our genre, so we love our genre stuff because they have

[01:40:51] these hit, hit, hard hitting moments.

[01:40:53] And I think that's the same for me.

[01:40:54] I don't, whether it's a star Wars, whether it's a, a, a dune, whether it's a, uh, you know,

[01:41:01] other kind of movie or show or book that it gets into that deep character work where

[01:41:06] we really get to illuminate motivation and, and, and conflict, uh, internal conflict.

[01:41:13] I won't say it and, uh, and, and have these bittersweet moments where you can have these

[01:41:21] generational conversations.

[01:41:22] It's just absolutely gorgeous.

[01:41:24] So, um, I, I too, am looking for, uh, uh, looking forward to when I have some time to

[01:41:28] really space out a rewatch Nate final wrap ups.

[01:41:33] I think really the genius of the show to me is how they weave the timeline threads together.

[01:41:39] Uh, and you know, I know that we've said in the book that it's, it's more of a chronological

[01:41:45] storytelling, but there, I love how they show parallel events and they show the rhymes

[01:41:51] between them.

[01:41:53] Sometimes rhyming.

[01:41:54] That's exactly the word rhyming.

[01:41:55] Yeah.

[01:41:56] It might be a shot of just staring off into the distance, remembering what she's seeing

[01:42:00] that then plays into going back to that, that period.

[01:42:04] Um, there's one beautiful shot where, uh, older Soon-ja is packing to go to back to Korea

[01:42:14] for the first time in decades, you know, since she came over like 50 years.

[01:42:19] Right.

[01:42:19] And then it, it, the shot tracks and you hit like a, a doorway or a transom or something.

[01:42:27] Right.

[01:42:28] And as you go past it, we shift to the younger Soon-ja.

[01:42:31] Uh, uh, well actually, no, I'm sorry.

[01:42:34] Um, it's at Soon-ja's mother, uh, who is packing Soon-ja's stuff for her to go to Japan

[01:42:42] in 1931.

[01:42:43] And it's just this beautiful parallel.

[01:42:46] Um, I also, again, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm the history guy, so I'm going to keep harping

[01:42:53] on this, but I love the selection of 1989 as when things are happening.

[01:43:00] Cause it is such a significant year.

[01:43:02] They're so smart about their use of, of history, isn't it?

[01:43:05] Aren't they?

[01:43:06] Yes.

[01:43:06] Yes.

[01:43:07] So a couple of things, um, number one, the, the, the emperor, Emperor Hito dies in January

[01:43:14] of 1989.

[01:43:14] That's actually in one of the first, I don't know if it's the first or the second episode,

[01:43:18] but we do see, um, the announcement of his death on the radio in the, the corporate office

[01:43:25] that they're all kind of standing in, uh, as Solomon's doing his business things.

[01:43:31] Um, and 1989.

[01:43:34] So it's significant for that because it's the end of an era.

[01:43:38] Uh, some of the listeners may know, but Japan, uh, at least in the modern era since 1868

[01:43:44] labels its eras based off of the reign name of the, the current reigning emperor.

[01:43:52] So, uh, the Showa era, era, excuse me, the Showa era is the time span from the time that

[01:44:01] Hirohito took the throne to his death in 1989 and then it became Heisei.

[01:44:06] And now we're in the Rewa era.

[01:44:09] Um, but 89 is this pivot point because Hirohito was in charge for so long.

[01:44:16] He takes, uh, you know, control in, in, in, in, he actually takes control under his father

[01:44:22] as a regent because his father is incapacitated and, and, uh, uh, unable to perform duties.

[01:44:28] So then in sort of from the 1920s until 1989 is Hirohito is the sovereign, right?

[01:44:36] And then his passing away provides this kind of change, this, this, this kind of changing

[01:44:43] of the guard that allows many people to finally talk about their memories of the wartime period.

[01:44:51] You know, it was in many ways considered, uh, you know, not proper to reference that,

[01:45:00] you know, from, from the, from 1945 until 1989, the whole idea was, we're going to put that

[01:45:05] behind us.

[01:45:06] We can't talk about it.

[01:45:08] It's, you know, rehabilitating Japanese society.

[01:45:11] It's, uh, rebuilding cities and so forth after the destruction of the war.

[01:45:16] And then 1989 with his passing now is there's this sense that, okay, now we can talk about

[01:45:24] these things.

[01:45:25] And so there's this flood of memory.

[01:45:27] One of the, the, the textbooks that I use in class is a collection of oral histories, uh,

[01:45:32] that were taken at this time called Japan at war.

[01:45:36] And so it's all these people reliving their memories of the wartime period.

[01:45:40] And from a whole bunch of different perspectives, but it's significant because this, this period

[01:45:45] of 1989 allows that to take place.

[01:45:49] It allows this finally, you know, we can discuss these things, but also the 1989 is important.

[01:45:58] Um, they give us, and they give us several markers through, through the show.

[01:46:02] Um, but it's significant because 19, the end of 1989 is when Japan hits a major financial

[01:46:09] crash.

[01:46:11] And so it's really kind of the end of what, what Japan is experiencing economically as we,

[01:46:18] we watch the show and this continues into, uh, season two, that's not a spoiler, but we're

[01:46:24] at the last stage of what's called the bubble economy.

[01:46:27] Mm-hmm.

[01:46:28] Um, and part of the economic dealings that Solomon is doing are predicated on this idea of,

[01:46:35] you know, Japan has seen nothing but growth since 1945.

[01:46:40] Right.

[01:46:40] And, and, you know, rebuilding of the war and the Japan's economy becomes a world power.

[01:46:46] And the eighties are just this, this, this never ending stream of growth, growth, growth,

[01:46:51] growth, growth that nobody thinks is going to end.

[01:46:54] And, and so what ends up happening is that, you know, the, the more and more, uh, untenable

[01:47:04] loans and so forth are, are going.

[01:47:06] And then there will be a chain of events at the end of 1989, uh, that we start to see some

[01:47:13] of in, in, in season two.

[01:47:14] That's not a spoiler too much.

[01:47:17] Um, but it leads to the, the, the huge financial crash of, uh, at the end of 1989 and, uh, going

[01:47:24] into a, a, a recession and, uh, you know, what, what's almost known as a, you know, are described

[01:47:31] as a malaise of the Japanese economy that goes into the nineties, two thousands.

[01:47:35] And they, they're still really kind of in, um, it's just become the new normal because 89

[01:47:41] was such a, or the late eighties were such a ridiculous time.

[01:47:46] I mean, you know, this is a, you know, a time where, where, where people were, were, uh,

[01:47:52] you know, going out and partying and spending ridiculous amounts of money because Japan was

[01:47:58] just so flush with money.

[01:48:00] And so one of the discussions at, you know, through the thread is that we get starting in

[01:48:07] season one is the idea that there's a few people who have a sense that maybe the party

[01:48:11] is coming to an end.

[01:48:12] Hmm.

[01:48:14] Hmm.

[01:48:14] Hmm.

[01:48:14] And so what are we doing in terms of investments and buying real estate and doing these things?

[01:48:21] And, you know, how are people like Solomon playing this and saying, oh yeah, this is going to

[01:48:26] continue forever.

[01:48:26] So please give me this loan money when they, they secretly know or have this intuition that

[01:48:32] something's going to happen and maybe the, the, the party's going to stop.

[01:48:35] Right.

[01:48:36] So 89 is just a fascinating year for, for, for, for this to all be set for all, you know,

[01:48:45] all the reasons that we've mentioned so far.

[01:48:46] Right.

[01:48:46] And not, it's not a spoiler to say in the second season, um, the modern quote unquote timeline

[01:48:51] is all set in 89 as well.

[01:48:53] So they really go all in on this year.

[01:48:55] Yeah.

[01:48:55] Yeah.

[01:48:56] Yeah.

[01:48:57] Okay.

[01:48:57] Well, I think we should wrap it up there.

[01:49:00] Nate, thank you so very much for joining us.

[01:49:03] And we'll be talking about, uh, uh, season two with you as well.

[01:49:07] We're all over on blue sky these days and you posted something about Godzilla minus one.

[01:49:12] And I was like, sounds like another good podcast topic.

[01:49:16] And so, but you were like, man, talk to me next year.

[01:49:22] Uh, yeah, well, I just figured we should get through this first.

[01:49:26] Yeah.

[01:49:26] And that was kind of prescient since we're going to end up doing a second podcast.

[01:49:31] So real quick, Alicia.

[01:49:33] Uh, so we're not, we don't do a 20 minute outro on all this stuff.

[01:49:37] What's going on, uh, in your neck of the woods with show coverage.

[01:49:41] So as we're recording, we are two days away from the start of silo season two.

[01:49:46] Woo.

[01:49:47] So yeah.

[01:49:48] Um, so subscribers or, or anyone with a season pass, uh, have access now to all of

[01:49:54] the book summaries and, um, also rewatch of season one with book spoilers and stuff all

[01:50:01] there.

[01:50:01] Uh, in the public feed, we have two preview episodes, the comic con episode in a trailer

[01:50:06] episode.

[01:50:06] And, uh, yeah, we have screeners this year.

[01:50:09] So we're going to get the main episodes out on the day of spoiler casts will be on the

[01:50:14] subscriber feeds a little after, and then we're going to do some separate mailbag episodes.

[01:50:17] So that's, that's the big thing.

[01:50:19] We also obviously have Dune coming up.

[01:50:22] Right.

[01:50:23] So yeah, make sure everyone silo coverage is on Alicia's feed.

[01:50:26] We'll go to the show notes.

[01:50:28] Yep.

[01:50:28] We'll shift us to go to the link tree in the show notes here and go and subscribe to that

[01:50:33] other feed.

[01:50:35] Um, and then for, yes, as you say, Dune prophecy, I just recorded a one and a half hour podcast

[01:50:40] on a two and a half minute long trailer and went crazy.

[01:50:44] That'll be out for subscribers later, but we're going to have weekly coverage.

[01:50:48] I'll be, um, uh, running point on that, but you're going to be right there with me, uh,

[01:50:54] on every episode.

[01:50:55] So we're going to be recording probably on Tuesdays.

[01:50:58] It comes out on Sunday, starting the 17th.

[01:51:00] And then I believe we've maybe convinced John to take skeleton crew when it starts in December

[01:51:06] and maybe running point on that because we're going to have a bunch of other stuff happening

[01:51:10] in December.

[01:51:11] So those are going to be our three.

[01:51:12] That'll probably be like a few episodes at a time, but we'll see.

[01:51:15] Yeah.

[01:51:16] Yeah.

[01:51:16] Yeah.

[01:51:16] We'll, we'll see how, how, how excited he is, but it looks fun.

[01:51:20] And I know he likes some of the family content.

[01:51:22] So we've got a busy year coming up real quick shout outs for our server boosters, Aaron K.

[01:51:29] Taylor the Thriller, Dork of the Ninjas, Doove 71, Athena, Adjalea, Tina, Lestu, Nancy M,

[01:51:36] Ghost of Perdition, and Richard W.

[01:51:37] Thank you all so very much for making our discord, our community discord, a better place for our

[01:51:43] community to our lore master subscribers, the people who, uh, anchor us, uh, in all of

[01:51:50] our podcast, uh, efforts, some Martian, Michael G, Michelle E, Brian P, SC, Peter O H, Patina W.

[01:51:59] Adam S, Nancy M, Doove 71, Brian 8063, who's also our lorebrarian and runs the blog on our

[01:52:05] website.

[01:52:06] Got some good articles.

[01:52:07] Uh, Doove 71 just wrote an article about Silo.

[01:52:10] About Silo and his own experiences of isolation in the military.

[01:52:13] Yeah.

[01:52:14] Yeah.

[01:52:14] Very cool.

[01:52:15] Frederick H.

[01:52:16] Hey Nate, we're still waiting for some blog articles from you too.

[01:52:18] Come on.

[01:52:19] We're slacking.

[01:52:20] Frederick H.

[01:52:21] Sarah L.

[01:52:22] Gerasi.

[01:52:23] Eric F.

[01:52:23] Matthew M.

[01:52:24] Sarah M.

[01:52:25] DJ Miwa.

[01:52:26] Andra B.

[01:52:27] Kwong Yu.

[01:52:28] Dead Eye.

[01:52:28] Jedi.

[01:52:29] Bob.

[01:52:29] Nathan T.

[01:52:30] Alex V.

[01:52:31] Aaron T.

[01:52:32] Sub-Zero.

[01:52:33] Eric K.

[01:52:34] Dally V.

[01:52:35] Mothership 61.

[01:52:37] Gnarles.

[01:52:38] Kathy W.

[01:52:39] Lestu.

[01:52:40] Jeffrey B.

[01:52:41] Elisa U.

[01:52:42] Neil F.

[01:52:42] Ben B.

[01:52:43] Scott F.

[01:52:43] Steven N.

[01:52:44] And forever last, never least, Adrian.

[01:52:47] Thank you all so very much for your ongoing support.

[01:52:51] You make, uh, so much happen and available to us.

[01:52:54] Thank you to everyone who subscribes, no matter what level.

[01:52:57] Thank you to everyone who listens.

[01:52:59] We're just glad that we have a human driven community where we can nerd out and talk about

[01:53:04] the things that we love together.

[01:53:07] And Nate, thank you.

[01:53:09] We'll see you on part two.

[01:53:11] Alicia, thank you so much for all the work that you did for this podcast and everything.

[01:53:15] And we'll see everybody next time.

[01:53:17] Bye.

[01:53:18] The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds.

[01:53:21] You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact.

[01:53:27] Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds.

[01:53:33] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any

[01:53:37] employers or other entities.

[01:53:38] Thanks for listening.