Historian Nate Ledbetter joins hosts David and Elysia to continue their analysis of Pachinko, focusing on the post-earthquake era through World War II. They explore how war transforms social hierarchies, examine the complex relationships between characters, and discuss the historical context of the Nagasaki bombing. Part 3 will continue the conversation and include listener feedback.
The hosts are also considering organizing a book club to read Min Jin Lee's novel that inspired the series. Stay tuned for more details.
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[00:00:17] I'm David.
[00:00:18] And I'm Alicia.
[00:00:20] And we're The Lorehounds. We're here to walk you through Waseda University's entrance exams. Did I say that right?
[00:00:27] Yes.
[00:00:28] Welcome to the part two of our deep dive into the first two seasons of Pachinko on Apple TV.
[00:00:35] Last time we went so deep that we only got through the first season, so we're back with the second episode to give season two its proper due.
[00:00:43] You know, we were on brand. We're like, oh yeah, we can cram two seasons of a show that we love into one episode. No problem.
[00:00:50] With historical references and concepts.
[00:00:53] Exactly. Anyway, Nate, you're back to join us. Thank you again for making time.
[00:00:58] I was worried that we were going to get into a scheduling nightmare, but we made it work within a week of the original recording.
[00:01:06] Yeah. Well, you know, always happy to make time for Pachinko, for sure.
[00:01:10] Absolutely. Nate Ledbetter is a Japanese historian, historical expert and a Princeton PhD candidate.
[00:01:17] And you teach at Rider, if that's correct?
[00:01:20] Yeah. Rider University.
[00:01:21] Great. Awesome.
[00:01:22] Okay. So we're here picking up our part two.
[00:01:26] So today we're going to do season two in depth, full spoilers for the entire show.
[00:01:33] And then we've got a bunch of feedback that we want to get to as well.
[00:01:38] Alicia, do you want to give us the quick roundup?
[00:01:40] You've got some bullet points here in the outline.
[00:01:44] Yeah. So just again, this is the show was created by Sue Hu and based on the novel by Min Jin Lee.
[00:01:52] We haven't read the book, so we don't have any book spoilers that we can share, but definitely going to read the book because the show is that good.
[00:02:03] So, yeah, just jump going back to our format from the first episode of just talking about one place in time at a time.
[00:02:11] 1945, Osaka is where the earlier timeline in this season picks up and we see Sinja's market business is thriving and she has a regular named Mr. Kin, who is secretly working for Honsu.
[00:02:24] We talked about a lot in season one, but things are going pretty well until war ruins everything.
[00:02:31] And there's like just, yeah, I guess that's the history of humanity. War ruins everything is a subtitle.
[00:02:38] Well, I'm so struck to, and I mentioned this in the part one episode, that the earthquake was the great reset in the social relationships and social hierarchies.
[00:02:49] And in this one, the war does that as well, along with the atomic bomb dropping.
[00:02:56] It just sort of, you're like, oh, all these social conventions that I used to adhere to so closely and so ruled and dominated my life.
[00:03:05] None of that matters right now.
[00:03:07] And it's just about survival.
[00:03:09] It's just about humanity and survival.
[00:03:12] Yeah.
[00:03:12] Yeah.
[00:03:13] I keep repeating this, but there's a reason why.
[00:03:19] I could teach my entire 20th century Japan history class off of this show because it just keeps hitting all these things that we go through in the class and just talk about.
[00:03:33] So we just did like a couple of weeks talking about the, the end of the war and then the U S occupation and the, you know, not only the devastation, but then, you know, how did people survive and, and, you know, make ends meet in the immediate aftermath until they got back on their feet.
[00:03:52] And, uh, it just does such a, the show does such a beautiful job of showing all of that to us.
[00:03:59] So it's wonderful.
[00:04:01] Yeah.
[00:04:02] Yeah.
[00:04:03] And, um, we see, I love how I've been thinking about since our first conversation, how much food is a center of the story here, um, and how it ties you to where you come from and your family.
[00:04:13] And, and obviously Sanja's life is all about one food or another.
[00:04:17] Uh, and so when the cabbage starts running out, she can't make the kimchi.
[00:04:21] Um, she turns to another food item.
[00:04:24] She starts, she's like, let's bootleg rice wine.
[00:04:27] Um, and I think just like what a wonderful moment in her friendship with Kyungi, her sister-in-law is when, is when Kyungi who's very, you know, uh, proper of her class, as we talked about before from, from the North, which at the time was quite, it was a fluent.
[00:04:45] Um, she agrees, she realizes like, okay, oh, we just have to, we have to bend the rules and, uh, they get closer.
[00:04:56] Yeah.
[00:04:56] And that's the, I think the, is it the one time that Sunya sort of, uh, starts to color outside the lines legally, so to speak?
[00:05:06] Mm-hmm.
[00:05:06] I mean, all the desperate situations that she's ever been in, she never succumbs to outright and out illegalness.
[00:05:17] I mean, it's, this is a, what do they call it?
[00:05:19] Malice in prohibita.
[00:05:21] So this is like, you know, rice wine.
[00:05:22] I know it's, it's illegal because we say it's illegal.
[00:05:26] It's not a moral illegal, like murder or something like that.
[00:05:30] It's just, Hey, we just don't, we just are saying that you can't do this, but everybody wants it still.
[00:05:36] Right.
[00:05:36] And it's not like a huge moral harm, alcoholism, but is the only time that she actually, I can think that I can think of where she actually relies on, on illegal means to survival.
[00:05:48] The only thing that I would throw into that is that, um, in terms of like, okay, so you're, you're taking rice and turning it into wine, which is actually, if we want to get technical, like more efficient delivery system for calories.
[00:06:04] Right.
[00:06:05] Um, talking about the survival method, you know, right.
[00:06:08] About the food shortages.
[00:06:10] Right.
[00:06:11] Right.
[00:06:11] Um, but part of why it's illegal is because they have the food shortages because of war.
[00:06:17] Right.
[00:06:17] And so, you know, not only is it just the, the bootlegging and the non-regulation sense that we might think of, but you know, she's taking a substance and turning it into something that is less, you know, uh, desired by the state, shall we say.
[00:06:34] But was it the rice or was it something else that they found like weevils in?
[00:06:39] I don't remember that.
[00:06:40] And they, and they were like, what should we feed this to our kids?
[00:06:43] And there's that moment where the two women looked at each other and like, how desperate are we right now?
[00:06:49] Good, good source of protein.
[00:06:51] I don't know.
[00:06:52] I don't know.
[00:06:53] It's nutrition.
[00:06:55] Yeah.
[00:06:55] But she gets arrested and Mr. Kim gets her out.
[00:06:58] And that's how she finds out that Mr. Kim isn't just a friendly customer.
[00:07:02] He's actually working for Honsu and Honsu has been working in the black market, uh, to make money for his totally disrespectful father-in-law.
[00:07:10] Um, like I know Nate, you share my ambivalent feelings about him, but don't you feel sorry for him when he's with his father-in-law and the way his father-in-law treats him for being Korean?
[00:07:21] Uh, yeah, absolutely.
[00:07:23] He's, um, I mean, you know, we, we said it on the last podcast.
[00:07:28] He's a, he's a, uh, a character that you both love and hate, uh, at various times.
[00:07:34] And you see within the relationship with his father-in-law, you know, you see so much of what his decisions are based on, uh, how he has to navigate individual situations.
[00:07:46] Mm-hmm.
[00:07:47] Yeah.
[00:07:48] Yeah.
[00:07:49] Yeah.
[00:07:50] Yeah.
[00:07:50] I think it's, it's super interesting too, to think of Honsu because he starts off as a quote unquote good kid.
[00:07:57] Mm-hmm.
[00:07:57] He's trying to do all the right stuff.
[00:08:00] Right.
[00:08:01] And it's not, not, not considering the earthquake and whether they, you know, he or his father would have survived that.
[00:08:09] Obviously he did, but that he then ends up falling into organized crime because of his father's one transgression.
[00:08:18] Well, more than one transgression.
[00:08:20] I mean, he was a bookie for, for the organized crime, but what really got them in trouble was the fact that he had a particular weakness.
[00:08:29] And borrowed, quote unquote, borrowed money.
[00:08:32] So if it were not for that one moment, would Honsu, what would have Honsu's trajectory have been?
[00:08:40] I don't, I think about that sometimes because he's incredibly smart.
[00:08:44] He's incredibly driven.
[00:08:46] He's incredibly charismatic.
[00:08:48] He's just got so many, uh, uh, advantages in life.
[00:08:53] And in this case, he ends up down this organized crime path.
[00:08:57] Well, and all these circumstances turn him into, uh, a, a negative person in the sense of, you know, he, he, he has had to fight to get right.
[00:09:09] Where he's at.
[00:09:10] And so he sees like, I mean, you know, we'll get into it, but he sees when he's thinking about Noah's future, you know, he's looking at Noah, not only as, you know, the relationship that they have, but, uh, but as a means to further cement power.
[00:09:37] Mm-hmm.
[00:09:39] Be, how do I, how do I get on and stay on top?
[00:09:42] Right.
[00:09:43] Mm-hmm.
[00:09:43] And if I'm not, if I'm not scrambling to stay on top, I could easily end, wind up being dead.
[00:09:49] Right.
[00:09:49] Right.
[00:09:50] Because I'm in an organized crime context.
[00:09:52] Right.
[00:09:52] Right.
[00:09:53] You know, I wonder if Mosasu, the younger son of Sunja, if he had grown up, you know, in, without Sunja as his mom, if he might have gone that direction.
[00:10:04] Because we do see him obviously flirting with the Yakuza.
[00:10:08] Very much so.
[00:10:09] And he is, um, he's got a kind of, uh, entrepreneurial spirit.
[00:10:15] Mm-hmm.
[00:10:15] That he's willing to take on risk and, and do things that are maybe slightly transgressive.
[00:10:20] Yeah.
[00:10:21] Yeah.
[00:10:21] Well, in a, in a, um, outspoken spirit, you know, he's not going to suffer, uh, fools the same way that, uh, that Noah does at times.
[00:10:32] Well, yeah, his, his, he just creates such a sharp contrast with his brother, Noah.
[00:10:37] Um, like for instance, we see my favorite Mosasu is the youngest one.
[00:10:42] Like the one who we see like standing on a desk in school and like kids are making fun of his Korean lunch.
[00:10:48] And he's like, no, no, but you don't understand.
[00:10:50] This is the best.
[00:10:51] And let me tell you all about it.
[00:10:52] And, oh, what, like a bundle of joy.
[00:10:55] Obviously that gets squashed by life is it always does.
[00:10:58] Um, but then in contrast, Noah always, when he gets teased about being Korean, he retreats within and hides.
[00:11:05] And it's interesting too, because, well, they're, they're different fathers, but I think it highlight that.
[00:11:12] I think that may even highlights the issue more about the diversity that you find within families.
[00:11:17] The differences between if we, if we're a family that has siblings, you know, in no matter whatever configuration,
[00:11:24] but if we are family with other brothers and sisters, the diversity of our characters and our trajectories and our interests and passions and how you can look at one family and go, how are these two kids so different?
[00:11:41] They come from a similar time, a similar place.
[00:11:44] Well, it's also, they are.
[00:11:45] It's a social economic.
[00:11:46] Like they have different fathers, as you said, but they are more like each other's fathers.
[00:11:50] I was just about to say it would be an interesting, uh, thought exercise to flip them and see if, if, uh, Mozasu had been the one kind of groomed by Honsu.
[00:12:06] How would that have, uh, gone on?
[00:12:09] I think, I think Honsu would be much more willing to comply and like, like, you know, see that as a path forward than, than, uh, than Noah is.
[00:12:18] Yeah.
[00:12:19] Yeah.
[00:12:19] But I feel like Noah also, he's so righteous because he's, I mean, he is.
[00:12:25] Yeah, he is.
[00:12:25] Yeah, I agree with you.
[00:12:26] But it's because he's modeling, you know, his father.
[00:12:30] Right.
[00:12:31] Yeah.
[00:12:31] And whether intentional or unintentional by the writers and the showrunners, this is part of the beauty of the show is that.
[00:12:38] I mean, his stepfather, but yeah.
[00:12:39] Yeah.
[00:12:40] Even as just engaging with this topic and from the showrun, from the writing standpoint, we can't help but see these facets and engage with all these, these really interesting facets about family and how family moves through time and generations.
[00:13:00] Right.
[00:13:00] It's just there, like, you don't need to add drama to this because this is so beautiful.
[00:13:05] And even the fact that, you know, I mean, Noah as the oldest child obviously feels the pressure to do certain things and behave in certain ways and be that model, uh, that righteous, uh, young man.
[00:13:19] Right.
[00:13:32] Mm-hmm.
[00:13:33] So let me ask you guys, uh, from Noah's perspective, how, what do you think shifted in him when he found out that his pastor, who was like his role model after his father got taken to jail for supporting, uh, resistance against, uh, the way the Koreans are treated.
[00:13:51] Um, he found out that his pastor was the one who turned him in for attending the meetings.
[00:13:56] And do you think that was a turning point for Noah and in what way?
[00:14:03] Yeah.
[00:14:03] Uh, I mean, it has to be a turning point and I, I can't help but think of the conversation that Sunja has with her father in the boat, which I talked about in part one, where he says to her, you know, I promise to protect you from the, you know, the harms of the world and the, all the disappointments and things.
[00:14:24] And Noah doesn't have that right in the, in the same way.
[00:14:28] He doesn't have that person to help soften the blows of life.
[00:14:33] Uh, and, uh, because his father is, you know, in, been in prison and now sick and dying or, or, you know, his biological father is this remote mysterious figure.
[00:14:45] So Noah being the contemplative person, the inward directed person, what does that do when he takes that in where Misasu might, as you were saying, you know, he may get up at the desk and like scream and shout and outwardly express his feelings.
[00:15:01] Noah takes that in, in, in his interior.
[00:15:05] I think also it, it's a turning point in the sense that, you know, when, when we get to this, this scene and we see, you know, Isaac, um, out of the jail and that, that, that fact becomes, um, obvious.
[00:15:27] Like, like, like Isaac, you know, mentions it.
[00:15:30] And then, but then, you know, Noah gets angry, but then Isaac, uh, uh, forgives him basically.
[00:15:37] Yeah.
[00:15:37] For, forgives him.
[00:15:38] And so this gives Noah that model that he then follows later on, um, that we'll, you know, we'll get to, I'm sure.
[00:15:48] But I think it reinforces the idea that, you know, whatever his biological parentage, he sees Isaac as his dad.
[00:15:57] Right.
[00:15:57] For sure.
[00:15:58] The person that he is trying to become.
[00:16:02] Mm-hmm.
[00:16:02] Mm-hmm.
[00:16:03] Yeah.
[00:16:04] And I think, you know, he probably, when he was looking to the pastor to be this sort of father replacement and then was so emotionally betrayed in that way,
[00:16:13] I think that made him maybe start to realize that, um, good and evil isn't so black and white.
[00:16:20] Right.
[00:16:20] Right.
[00:16:21] Well, there's that there.
[00:16:22] There's also, I think, because why did the, the, you know, we, we want to be clear about this.
[00:16:28] Why did the pastor do it?
[00:16:30] It's because the pastor was actually the assistant pastor to Isaac.
[00:16:33] Right.
[00:16:33] He was jealous.
[00:16:34] Wanted, you know, yes.
[00:16:36] Was jealous of how everybody, uh, you know, kind of, uh, respected Isaac and wanted that for himself.
[00:16:42] So he got, you know, contributed to Isaac being arrested so that he could then take that position.
[00:16:49] So I think Noah, in some ways, if we look longer range through the rest of the season, you know, Noah sees that as a negative example that he doesn't want to follow.
[00:16:58] So that when he's confronted by the ambition that comes with, with Honsu and their interactions.
[00:17:06] Oh yeah.
[00:17:07] That might be something that helps turn him away from that.
[00:17:11] It, it, it so affects him.
[00:17:14] It's a, it's a, it's almost a visceral revulsion.
[00:17:17] This is, you are everything that Isaac was not.
[00:17:20] And I have patterned myself on.
[00:17:22] Oh yeah.
[00:17:23] Yes.
[00:17:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:17:24] Right.
[00:17:25] But then, I mean, so Honsu always complex because at the same time, he's like, he's the hero from time to time with strong caveats.
[00:17:35] So he gets, he's like finally out of jail, but then it's like, wait, you could do that the whole time.
[00:17:41] And he also gets him a doctor as long as Sunja agrees that she will leave the city before the Americans come.
[00:17:48] Honsu gets, Honsu pulls strings and gets him out of jail.
[00:17:52] Just like he got, um, uh, uh, Sunja out of legal trouble when, from her.
[00:17:58] Right.
[00:17:58] Right.
[00:17:59] Yep.
[00:18:00] Well, a well-priced bribe or a well-placed bribe.
[00:18:04] Yes.
[00:18:04] Well, it's always effective.
[00:18:05] Which I, I always find, like, I find it so interesting that Honsu at every stage has such power and commands, such respect from the Japanese institutions.
[00:18:20] Mm.
[00:18:21] Despite being Korean.
[00:18:23] Yeah.
[00:18:24] Yeah.
[00:18:24] Well, snappy dresser goes a long way.
[00:18:28] Well, I think you, you, you add in the, you add in the money, obviously, but then you also add in the organized crime, uh, uh, bona fides.
[00:18:38] So, you know, they, they can't, they, they would disrespect him at their peril because if he's a made man, so to speak, they would not, uh, I think want to, to cross that.
[00:18:48] But at the same time, you know, money in a kleptocracy kind of situation, you know, um, everybody's on the take.
[00:18:55] Right.
[00:18:56] Yes.
[00:18:56] Yes.
[00:18:56] No, that, that's very true.
[00:18:58] It just, from what we see, everything seems to be like, it, it doesn't seem to be that he's just trading on either his, you know, his father-in-law's power or his, his place within, uh, his father-in-law's organization.
[00:19:12] Like he himself is respected as somebody who has power and gets things done.
[00:19:18] That's a good point.
[00:19:19] Like he himself individually is somebody that even the Japanese authorities are afraid to cross, uh, the local authority, you know, the police in Osaka or the judges or, or whatever.
[00:19:30] So does that come from his internal sense of knowing himself?
[00:19:35] And that sort of confidence and swagger?
[00:19:38] Because half of throwing your weight around, so to speak, is just your ability to convince other people that you have something that they don't authoritatively.
[00:19:48] Right.
[00:19:49] It's the whole, you know, short con thing.
[00:19:51] You walk in and you, you know, you might throw a stethoscope around your neck.
[00:19:55] And as long as you swagger around the hospital, like, you know what you're talking about, people are going to give you the deference of being a doctor.
[00:20:02] Right.
[00:20:03] I mean, it might be, I mean, I think that there's a combination of things obviously.
[00:20:08] Um, and I don't want to downplay his relationship with his, his, you know, father-in-law and being part of the organization.
[00:20:15] But, um, certainly it's not just that he has his own, uh, and, you know, of course we don't know exactly everything that he has done to get to his position.
[00:20:28] They don't show us everything.
[00:20:29] So it's quite possible that many of the things that he has Mr. Kim doing now are things that he was doing in the past.
[00:20:36] And so it has built up a, uh, reputation as somebody who can break a few bones or.
[00:20:41] Yeah.
[00:20:42] I think if Mr. Kim had stayed around, he would have, you know, advanced his career.
[00:20:47] I think that was the plan.
[00:20:48] But David, I see you have a quote here from this interaction.
[00:20:51] Yeah, it's unfortunate we can't play it because, uh, the original language, uh, track, it doesn't, it doesn't work well in the English translation.
[00:21:04] And even the, I don't know, the, the way that they wrote the subtitles was so beautiful, but then I think I did some other looking at subtitle stuff and it gets some different meaning depending on how it's translated.
[00:21:16] But to me, this was so potent and so beautiful, which is Isaac tells Noah, mercy is not a gift or a power.
[00:21:27] It is a mission.
[00:21:29] And that's just like, whoa, like the whole, I, you know, I don't know what this show is all about.
[00:21:36] There's so many things that it's about, but this to me seemed like one of those thesis lines.
[00:21:40] Like this is such an important part of, of the, of what the show is communicating to us as, as viewers that mercy and knowing mercy and being connected to it and showing it to other people.
[00:21:58] It's not something that you're giving.
[00:22:00] It's not a power that you have to, you know, give to other people.
[00:22:05] But when you acknowledge your own humanity and that we're all dealing with circumstances, you can have the space for grace and mercy.
[00:22:18] And then I think about when Noah shows mercy to the eggs, you know, the guys, the kids who are stealing eggs.
[00:22:25] And then he develops a friendship out of that because he can understand that, hey, you know, we're all just trying to survive here and, you know, things are complex.
[00:22:35] So it was just a beautifully delivered line to me.
[00:22:38] And it just felt like one of those thesis statements that the show is, is putting forward.
[00:22:43] Yep.
[00:22:43] Yeah.
[00:22:44] Of course we get another sad exam events or sad series of events because Isaac does die.
[00:22:51] He has sepsis and the rest as agreed with Honsu retreat to the countryside.
[00:22:58] I do get tired with, with Isaac dying.
[00:23:02] I get tired of like the too good to live trope.
[00:23:04] Like I just want, like people can be good people and, and still survive.
[00:23:10] And I feel like that's, we need to get past this, but anyway, minor gripe.
[00:23:14] It's so, yeah, but that's the narrative dramatic tension, right?
[00:23:18] That's a, it's an easy place to, it's a trope because it's an easy place to draw dramatic tension from.
[00:23:24] And we also see in this part, Kyung Yi distancing herself in a way from her husband, Joseph, by accident, because she can't get his permission to move to the countryside.
[00:23:35] Like she's about to, you know, refuse to do this.
[00:23:38] And Honsu is like, we don't have time for this lady.
[00:23:40] You know, the Americans are coming with their bombs.
[00:23:42] Get in the car.
[00:23:43] We're, we're getting out of here.
[00:23:45] And this is, yeah.
[00:23:46] When I, this is obviously an affront from you were saying last time, Nate, about how, um, Joseph is, he's a macho guy and he doesn't want.
[00:23:56] Yeah.
[00:23:57] Right.
[00:23:58] Right.
[00:23:58] Well, he's the head of the family and Kyung Yi herself is very traditional, uh, obviously.
[00:24:03] And so feels, you know, the responsibility to be in contact with him.
[00:24:09] But I think, I don't know if we've mentioned that he's, that Joseph is in Nagasaki.
[00:24:14] Right.
[00:24:14] We mentioned it last time, but yeah, he good to bring it up.
[00:24:17] Yeah.
[00:24:17] He's in Nagasaki at the munitions factory.
[00:24:20] Right.
[00:24:22] Yeah.
[00:24:22] Right.
[00:24:23] I didn't see that.
[00:24:23] I literally didn't see it coming.
[00:24:25] And then it was like, oh, wait, he's in Nagasaki.
[00:24:27] Wait, wait.
[00:24:28] You know?
[00:24:28] Yeah.
[00:24:29] Uh, and it's such a, their family dynamic is such a contrast to Sunja, who's very, a person who stands on her own two feet, no matter who her.
[00:24:40] Right.
[00:24:41] You know, uh, domestic partner is in relationship, you know, how she's organized domestically.
[00:24:46] It's always a partnership.
[00:24:47] It's not, you know, she's doing what's told.
[00:24:50] Right.
[00:24:50] Whereas, uh, uh, Kyung Yi is, uh, subservient.
[00:24:54] Yeah.
[00:24:54] Yeah.
[00:24:54] And follows, uh, that sort of quasi patriarchal, uh, traditional format.
[00:25:00] Nate, were you going to say something?
[00:25:01] I was just going to say, like, I think that also, I mean, you talk about Isaac as the to get to live, uh, example.
[00:25:08] Uh, you know, he's also, uh, the, the perfect husband, uh, is willing to accept Sunja or, you know, even kind of like saves her because she's, she's pregnant out of wedlock.
[00:25:22] Right.
[00:25:23] And he kind of gives her the cover of respectability and so forth.
[00:25:28] So, yeah, he's very much a, a, uh, a sacrificing character.
[00:25:33] But then, like, that stands in contrast then to, you know, Yoseb and Hounsu and all these other adult male characters.
[00:25:42] Mm-hmm.
[00:25:43] Yeah.
[00:25:43] And Isaac doesn't, he knows that he's lending her that, that social salve or, you know, protection.
[00:25:52] But I don't think he, that's not his goal, right?
[00:25:54] His goal is he loves this woman and is indebted to her in a, in a way that's, hey, we're in this together.
[00:26:02] I want to be with you.
[00:26:03] I'm choosing you regardless of your circumstances.
[00:26:06] Is he though?
[00:26:08] I think so.
[00:26:08] I don't know that I necessarily see that.
[00:26:10] I want to believe that.
[00:26:11] I mean, it was also, he was sickly.
[00:26:13] So he was also not like considered the greatest catch despite having, you know, a good, respectable background.
[00:26:21] So.
[00:26:21] Yeah.
[00:26:22] Like I, I see their love less in a kind of like romantic passion sense.
[00:26:28] Agreed.
[00:26:28] And, and more in a.
[00:26:30] Unlike Kim and what's his, and.
[00:26:33] And Kim Yee.
[00:26:33] Kim Yee.
[00:26:34] Kim Yee.
[00:26:34] Yeah.
[00:26:35] Yeah.
[00:26:35] No.
[00:26:36] I mean, I, I feel like Isaac is one of the, like he is, he's the absolute perfect saint.
[00:26:42] And so he saw somebody that he could help who, you know, and, and as a way of saying thank you for saving his life when he was sick.
[00:26:55] You know, we're going back to season one stuff.
[00:26:58] Um, but like, you know, absolutely the, the role model father, the role model husband, the role model, you know, in the sense that he's the pastor and thus, you know, a spiritual leader as well.
[00:27:12] Um, but almost all of it too perfect.
[00:27:17] Mm.
[00:27:18] Mm.
[00:27:18] And I think that works for Sinja because she is only because she is so independent.
[00:27:24] Mm.
[00:27:25] Right.
[00:27:25] I don't necessarily think it's a match of two people who.
[00:27:29] Passionate.
[00:27:29] A passionate match.
[00:27:31] Right.
[00:27:31] Right.
[00:27:32] Like I, I think it, it.
[00:27:35] Works.
[00:27:36] Anyway.
[00:27:36] Right.
[00:27:36] Yeah.
[00:27:37] Yeah.
[00:27:38] So my favorite part of this season is just seeing them all together when they go to the countryside and they make this makeshift home.
[00:27:46] They just have like this empty barn and they, you know, live a pleasant peasant life for a while and they deal with more prejudice.
[00:27:54] But overall, they're actually the pampered favorites of the boss.
[00:27:57] Who's of course on to, and, um, it's still, it's a big fall for Kyung Yi, but this is where we really start to see her character coming forward more and more.
[00:28:07] And of course, Mr.
[00:28:09] Kim is sent to live there with them.
[00:28:12] And as you alluded to Kyung Yi and Mr.
[00:28:15] Kim start to notice each other.
[00:28:17] They both share a desire to go back to Korea.
[00:28:19] And there's just a little, there's a spark that ignites into a flame.
[00:28:25] Yeah.
[00:28:25] And I can't help, but going to the countryside, it really gave me echoes of the stories that I've, uh, heard and read about of, uh, in England, when people fled the city to go, you know, send the kids, uh, to the North and outside of the bombs.
[00:28:41] And so just in that general sense of, and, and I think Nate, I think this is an interesting thing too, from a military historical standpoint, aerial bombardment changes radically the society's response to mechanized war.
[00:28:57] Absolutely.
[00:28:58] Absolutely.
[00:28:58] And, and I mean, yeah, it's interesting that you point out the parallels with, with England, uh, during the blitz and so forth.
[00:29:06] This is a transnational experience.
[00:29:08] It's not unique to, uh, you know, any one, one culture.
[00:29:13] So we see this, um, I, I, I love this part of it because they, they are able to get out and you know, they're going to be safe because, you know, chances are they're not going to get bombed.
[00:29:26] They're not bombing a farmhouse.
[00:29:28] Right.
[00:29:28] Right.
[00:29:29] And we know Sunja lives.
[00:29:30] Yeah.
[00:29:31] We know Sunja lives.
[00:29:32] Uh, well, we, and we know Kyunghee lives.
[00:29:35] Right.
[00:29:35] Right.
[00:29:36] And, and, uh, Mosasu.
[00:29:37] Yeah.
[00:29:37] Yeah.
[00:29:38] And Mosasu.
[00:29:39] So, um, but, uh, uh, yeah, it is then there's always the specter there because you know what's coming.
[00:29:49] Right.
[00:29:50] For Yoseb over in Nagasaki.
[00:29:53] And I think that.
[00:29:54] I didn't, I was completely blind to it until it happened.
[00:29:57] Really?
[00:29:58] Okay.
[00:29:58] I was just like, oh my God.
[00:30:00] I was literally surprised.
[00:30:01] I was like, once I realized it, once it dawned on me, I was like, oh, no.
[00:30:06] So for me, the whole time I'm going, like as soon as, as soon as they said, oh, he's going to go work in, in Nagasaki.
[00:30:12] I was like, oh no.
[00:30:13] Um, and so for me, the whole thing, the whole relationship between Kyunghee and Mr. Kim was interesting because here I am, I'm assuming that Yoseb is going to die, uh, in, you know, on August 9th, 1945.
[00:30:30] We know what's coming.
[00:30:32] Um, the atomic bomb for anyone who does it.
[00:30:34] Yes.
[00:30:35] Just spell it out.
[00:30:35] Yes.
[00:30:36] Um, and, and so I thought that this was going to be your, at the, at the time I'm watching this, I'm like, okay.
[00:30:44] Okay.
[00:30:45] So Kyunghee is going to be released from this relationship with Yoseb once he dies and move forward with Mr. Kim.
[00:30:54] So this is where this, this is going.
[00:30:56] So that was interesting to watch as it developed.
[00:31:00] Yeah.
[00:31:02] Yeah.
[00:31:02] And, um, I don't know, but my favorite thing though, is we get the, these moments of respite, like we've talked about this before with other things, how you need, especially with the drama like this.
[00:31:12] And so we get to see, for instance, Noah actually forms a friendship when he protects, um, his former bully from school is like stealing chickens in this new reality from, uh, you know, from Honsu basically.
[00:31:26] And Noah protects him, um, which again, later on ends up getting betrayed.
[00:31:31] But yeah, David, you also were touched by that moment.
[00:31:36] Yeah.
[00:31:36] Yeah.
[00:31:36] Because I saw it as a real embodiment of Isaac's, uh, messaging to Noah that, you know, to, that, to give mercy is not, as I said before, is not a power, but it's an admission that, Hey, this kid is struggling too.
[00:31:56] And yeah, maybe we need to stop the stealing, but do I need to, do we, what kind of retribution is required here?
[00:32:03] How do we, how do we sort this out?
[00:32:05] Because these people are just as hungry as we are.
[00:32:07] Right.
[00:32:07] And so how, how do we survive as humanity?
[00:32:10] And so being able to connect to that in himself opens up the space for, you know, a friendship that is really impactful for him.
[00:32:19] Yeah.
[00:32:19] Well, and it's, it's interesting, I think, because once they catch Minoru, the, the, the former bully and, and Frank, uh, who becomes a friend, um, they, Mr. Kim gives Noah the choice in what to do with him.
[00:32:37] I forgot about that.
[00:32:38] And then respects, you know, Noah's decision.
[00:32:42] Right.
[00:32:43] So I think.
[00:32:43] Treats him like a, an adult with agency.
[00:32:46] Not only, well, yes, treats him like an adult, but also I think we're seeing.
[00:32:50] Kind of the respect that was shown to Isaac.
[00:32:54] Mm.
[00:32:55] Flowing through Noah.
[00:32:57] Mm.
[00:32:58] Right?
[00:32:59] Because.
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[00:33:54] It's, you know, they're not really, like, fighting back on, like, it's like, okay, we can see that.
[00:34:01] And so clearly they're seeing the reflection of Isak in Noah.
[00:34:05] Mm-hmm.
[00:34:05] Um, and, and thus kind of respecting that, you know, and letting things go.
[00:34:11] And that's how, you know, Noah and-
[00:34:14] We're seeing the reflections of his father and his organ and his father-in-law.
[00:34:20] Mm-hmm.
[00:34:21] So he's standing not only as himself, but he's also emanating the power.
[00:34:25] Whereas Noah-
[00:34:26] We will see, we will see another reflection of that in a minute.
[00:34:29] Mm-hmm.
[00:34:30] When we, when we get to the next couple of lines.
[00:34:34] On that one.
[00:34:36] Um, well, so go ahead, lead us there.
[00:34:39] Okay.
[00:34:40] Well, um, you want me to or?
[00:34:42] Yeah, go for it.
[00:34:43] Okay.
[00:34:44] Well, so, um, the next thing that, that happens is that Sunja, uh, sees Hounsou and Hounsou has his car.
[00:34:52] So Hounsou thinks it'll be fun to let her try to drive.
[00:34:56] So they, they go on this drive and she ends up crashing the car.
[00:35:00] Uh, and it, it, it leads to, you know, this romantic moment where they lean in and kiss, but then she shuts it down because clearly this is not something that they should be doing.
[00:35:39] Um, yeah.
[00:35:42] Does she have to, though?
[00:35:43] Because Aseq is dead at this point.
[00:35:46] Yeah.
[00:35:46] But I suppose it's still within the boundaries of taste.
[00:35:50] But also I think she just, she's like, well, this is a married, he's still a married man.
[00:35:55] That's true.
[00:35:55] Oh, I forgot.
[00:35:56] Yeah.
[00:35:56] That's right.
[00:35:56] On his side.
[00:35:57] He's, he's already made a promise to somebody else.
[00:35:59] He's still married.
[00:36:00] Yeah.
[00:36:00] Uh, and she's more aware.
[00:36:03] Yeah.
[00:36:04] Yeah.
[00:36:07] You know, certainly at this point she does.
[00:36:09] Yeah.
[00:36:09] Yeah.
[00:36:10] Mm-hmm.
[00:36:10] But he's trying to get closer to Noah at the same time.
[00:36:13] Um, but then he goes, turns around and ruins it because Noah sees him beating a man who was stealing chicken sap, basically.
[00:36:22] Right.
[00:36:22] Right.
[00:36:22] So the, the, the man that he beats is the farmer who's kind of, he's a Japanese farmer who's kind of there as like the overseer.
[00:36:32] The manager.
[00:36:33] Yeah.
[00:36:33] Right.
[00:36:33] Yeah.
[00:36:34] He's, he's sort of overseeing all of the land.
[00:36:36] Yeah.
[00:36:37] There's a, there's a scene a little earlier where, uh, Mr. Kim sees the guy's truck and in the back of the pickup truck is, uh, uh, chickens that shouldn't be, or things that shouldn't be there.
[00:36:51] I think it's chickens.
[00:36:52] It might be eggs.
[00:36:53] I don't, I don't remember, but, um, obviously Mr. Kim passed that and passes that information to Hounsou.
[00:36:59] Right.
[00:37:00] Uh, at a moment off screen.
[00:37:01] So then after Sunja goes back, Hounsou sees this guy and stops him and pulls him out and then like starts beating him.
[00:37:14] Right.
[00:37:15] You know, relentlessly, uh, very brutally.
[00:37:18] And so we have this, you know, again, back to Hounsou as this complicated, uh, gray character, you know, we have this touching moment with him and, and Sunja.
[00:37:27] Uh, and then the next scene, he's putting down a massive beat down on, on, on this farmer in a very brutal way.
[00:37:37] And then, like you said, Noah, who is out, uh, and about with his friend at, at night, like runs across this and sees what Hounsou is doing.
[00:37:47] It kind of gets this, you know, insight into who Hounsou is.
[00:37:53] Right.
[00:37:53] Uh, and, and the brutality, which is just completely against Noah's character.
[00:37:57] Yeah.
[00:37:58] So two things I was just thinking about when you're talking about that.
[00:38:00] One is that Mr. Kim, um, he, he's definitely like the nicer person than Hounsou.
[00:38:07] And it is funny that we always call Mr. Kim because he's always like, he's part of this family, but also outside it at the same time.
[00:38:15] But he shares a story at one point about his father, uh, losing his farm to the Japanese and then committing suicide in the land after it was taken.
[00:38:24] Um, and so I think he still, this is why he can do like the beating up work for Hounsou that he does.
[00:38:31] Cause I think that it's, it's an outlet for that rage.
[00:38:34] And then later when he goes to war, it's an outlet for that rage.
[00:38:37] Um, and I, oh, go ahead.
[00:38:39] I want to interject something on Mr. Kim.
[00:38:41] Okay.
[00:38:41] Sure.
[00:38:41] Sure.
[00:38:42] The, the multifacetedness of Mr. Kim, cause we call it, what do we call him?
[00:38:47] Mr.
[00:38:48] Kim.
[00:38:48] Like he's Mr.
[00:38:50] Rogers or something.
[00:38:51] Right.
[00:38:51] And he's gentle and he's kind and he's thoughtful and is a steady person in a complex and chaotic world.
[00:39:02] But what does he do for a living?
[00:39:04] He's the muscle for Hounsou and he is brutal and efficient and can, you know, deal out violence, uh, very effectively.
[00:39:16] And so the, the fat, the multifacetedness of, of that character is, is really great.
[00:39:22] Yeah.
[00:39:23] Yeah.
[00:39:24] And, uh, Hounsou, do you think, okay.
[00:39:27] So we see him supporting Noah studies, you know, like, oh, my son's going to be the, he's the smart one.
[00:39:32] Yay.
[00:39:32] And then, you know, when we see him, he gets another heroic act when he ends up bringing Sinja's mother, uh, Youngjin over from Korea to rejoin her.
[00:39:42] Um, and I have this sense, and I wonder if you guys agree, this is, it's not his official family, but it's his preferred family.
[00:39:48] And maybe this is kind of like the happiest time in his life.
[00:39:53] Earthwaker.
[00:39:53] Interesting.
[00:39:54] Yeah.
[00:39:55] Yeah.
[00:39:56] I think so.
[00:39:56] I certainly think that he gets more, uh, emotional satisfaction out of this.
[00:40:04] It's pure in a sense, right?
[00:40:06] Like, I mean, I think that's why he is attracted to Sinja in the first place back in season one is that she's not part of this gangster world that he lives in.
[00:40:16] Uh, and, and yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[00:40:20] You know, I, I think that was part of his drive for getting them, you know, the, the safety.
[00:40:26] The safety aspect is obviously the first thing in getting them out of Osaka, but pulling them further into a sphere where he can interact with them.
[00:40:34] Certainly is a lot of it as well.
[00:40:37] Yeah.
[00:40:37] And I guess his, uh, language of love is acts of service.
[00:40:42] If you use the five model, uh, the five love languages model.
[00:40:46] Uh, I just looked it up really quick and I was like, Oh, yep.
[00:40:49] Acts of service.
[00:40:49] Acts of service.
[00:40:50] Sure.
[00:40:51] Yeah.
[00:40:51] That's his love language.
[00:40:52] Yeah.
[00:40:53] Yeah.
[00:40:54] He, he certainly gave the farmer a quite a lot of physical touch, but I don't think that was really hard.
[00:41:01] But you know that, that whole thing with him beating the chickens, I read online.
[00:41:05] Beating the chickens?
[00:41:06] Beating the chickens.
[00:41:07] Yep.
[00:41:08] That actually would have been worse.
[00:41:09] That would have been worse.
[00:41:10] Much worse.
[00:41:11] Much worse.
[00:41:11] Because Nate, as you point out in the notes here, the farmer was being racist against Koreans.
[00:41:15] The one who leads to that.
[00:41:17] Uh, but, but that part is not in the book apparently.
[00:41:20] Oh, interesting.
[00:41:22] Yeah.
[00:41:22] Yeah.
[00:41:23] Um, so Nate, you have a note in here about the festival where they send the lanterns out
[00:41:29] into the water, which I have to, I can't see that and not reference both the wheel of
[00:41:33] time season one and silo season one, but this comes from.
[00:41:38] Yeah.
[00:41:39] So I love the adaptation in silo season one where they go up the silo.
[00:41:43] That's just so cool.
[00:41:44] It's awesome.
[00:41:45] That's their river.
[00:41:45] Yeah.
[00:41:46] Yeah.
[00:41:47] So this is the, the, the, you know, this lantern festival is jet in Japan.
[00:41:55] It's called old bomb and it happens at the end of the summer.
[00:41:57] Um, typically, uh, you know, early August.
[00:42:02] Uh, so it's, you know, the festival of remembering the spirits of the dead.
[00:42:06] So you're sending, you know, these lanterns out, whether it's, you know, onto the water
[00:42:10] or, or, or whatever, uh, as a way of, you know, communicating with, uh, you know, the
[00:42:17] spirits of those who have, have passed away.
[00:42:20] Um, and I, I found this striking for a couple of reasons.
[00:42:23] Uh, you know, number one, just the idea of, okay, this is a marker in time for those,
[00:42:30] you know, for, for people who know Japanese, uh, uh, religious patterns, right.
[00:42:39] Religious, you know, calendar, right.
[00:42:41] Okay.
[00:42:41] So we know this is either the very end of July or the, the beginning of August.
[00:42:47] And so that means that knowing the history, knowing what happens in August of 1945, uh,
[00:42:55] it's a time marker.
[00:42:56] We know that, you know, something is going to happen to Yosip in, uh, on August 9th, probably
[00:43:02] in the next episode.
[00:43:05] Um, but, but also this idea of, you know, this is a time of death.
[00:43:11] Uh, it's a war, right.
[00:43:13] It's Osaka was, you know, being bombed and that's why they left, uh, and so forth.
[00:43:19] So it just kind of strikes in a couple of different ways to me to have this included in here.
[00:43:25] And then what happens after that is, uh, you know, the, the, that night their rice shed
[00:43:33] catches fire, uh, likely not by accident.
[00:43:40] Right.
[00:43:40] Um, do you think it was the farmer who got the beating?
[00:43:43] Yeah, that, that's, that's my assumption.
[00:43:45] Uh, they don't explicitly tell us, but it looks like it was, it appears, uh, from the way that
[00:43:51] it's, it's, it's shown to us that it was arson, that it wasn't just, you know, spontaneous
[00:43:56] fire.
[00:43:57] Um, and so, uh, as there, there, there's a couple, um, things going on here because, you know,
[00:44:07] as part of the, the evening, uh, you know, uh, festival stuff, there's fireflies.
[00:44:13] Uh, and so that's evocative of the lanterns as well.
[00:44:18] You know, you have the lights in the, in the, in the darkness.
[00:44:20] Um, I was also wondering when I saw this, the first thing I thought of was, uh, a Japanese
[00:44:25] animated movie called grave of the fireflies.
[00:44:27] Right.
[00:44:28] Which if, um, if, if people are unfamiliar with is a, if your heart isn't stomped enough,
[00:44:35] then yes, yes, yes.
[00:44:38] It's, um, something more emotional than pachinko if that can be possible.
[00:44:43] But, um, yeah.
[00:44:44] So the grave of the fireflies is a movie animated movie, uh, set in, uh, wartime Kobe, uh, which
[00:44:53] is another city.
[00:44:54] It's not too far from Osaka, uh, but another major city.
[00:44:57] And so it follows, uh, the, uh, follows a couple of children as they are, you know,
[00:45:06] enduring bombing and death and grief and, um, and so forth.
[00:45:12] Uh, I won't go deeper than that, but like the, the fact that we have these fireflies there
[00:45:17] seemed like a, a reference to me, you know, and then there's floating up.
[00:45:22] Right.
[00:45:22] Right.
[00:45:23] Well, and then we have a fire that wipes out all the hard work that they've been doing.
[00:45:30] I mean, you know, they're having this festival.
[00:45:31] Part of this festival is that it is clearly a, uh, celebration of, you know, finishing the
[00:45:38] harvest and bringing in all the things that are going to sustain them over the next year.
[00:45:43] And of course we already know that this is a time of privation.
[00:45:47] This is a time of, um, not having, um, resources and food and, and, and so forth.
[00:45:54] So, uh, you know, the fact that all of this is wiped away, uh, is just such a kick in the gut.
[00:46:04] Right.
[00:46:05] Uh, as, as, as you're watching it.
[00:46:07] Um, and so, yeah, I thought all of that was impeccably done in a way that it like tore my
[00:46:13] heart out.
[00:46:14] So, and it sets up a, uh, an additional theme that starts to run through, which is tragic
[00:46:19] loss.
[00:46:20] Right.
[00:46:21] As we, we know we've put in all this effort, we put in all this effort to Noah, we've put
[00:46:25] in all this effort to our children, we put all this effort into this business or to this,
[00:46:28] uh, relationship and then it's gone in an instant and you're just left there to try to figure
[00:46:38] out what to do next because what you were depending on is now gone.
[00:46:42] And so the tragedy of loss is a theme that runs, you know, even Solomon, you know, uh,
[00:46:48] has a tragedy of loss with, you know, uh, with, uh, oh, I forget honest wise character's
[00:46:53] name.
[00:46:53] Um, uh, um, Naomi, Naomi, you know, and, and other things.
[00:46:58] Right.
[00:46:59] There is just a recurring theme that, that, that starts to, that we can start to see play
[00:47:03] out.
[00:47:04] Including as Nate predicted at the beginning of the next episode, which is indeed the bombing
[00:47:08] of Nagasaki.
[00:47:09] So we follow, it's, it's really, I wondered if they were going to do the whole episode,
[00:47:13] but they only do like a third of it, I guess in black and white, August 1st through 9th.
[00:47:19] And we see what Yosep has been up to working in this munitions factory in Nagasaki and like
[00:47:25] just mundane things like how he's, he's, um, made the mentor of a young, angry Korean man
[00:47:32] and actually prevents that young man from trying to assassinate someone and getting hurt himself,
[00:47:40] stabbed himself.
[00:47:41] And so they're just both plucked and he's thrown into the back of a truck and that's where he
[00:47:46] is when the bomb goes off.
[00:47:48] So that's why he, he survives with scarring, but, um, he survives just because of that chance
[00:47:55] series of events.
[00:47:57] Which I was like, I, like you, Nate, once I started to realize what was going on, I'm like,
[00:48:03] oh, well now Mr. Kim and Kunyi can, you know, have their romance, but no, this is Pachinko.
[00:48:09] We're going to take it up a notch and we're going to really create a complex triangle here.
[00:48:14] But the fact that we get to see Yosep be kind and to be gentle with somebody and to mentor
[00:48:22] somebody in a way where when he's back home, especially after the bombing, he's very angry
[00:48:30] and obviously dealing with a lot of repressed emotions.
[00:48:33] And I don't wonder how much he's, he doesn't even, he's following the traditional like,
[00:48:38] oh, I'm the man and, and, you know, I run the house and, and these are my rules.
[00:48:43] But oftentimes that kind of overexertion, you know, in an area indicates that you're not
[00:48:48] comfortable doing that.
[00:48:51] And so you overexert because you don't really have a sense of it.
[00:48:55] So I think he's, he's another interesting character because he's, as we see, he's not
[00:49:02] cold hearted.
[00:49:03] He, there's actually some warmth in there and there's some humanity inside there.
[00:49:06] Yeah.
[00:49:07] Yeah.
[00:49:08] Yeah.
[00:49:08] So Nate, briefly, since we still have a lot left to cover, what do you, what historical
[00:49:16] context would you add to this, this whole opening to this episode with the Nagasaki and
[00:49:22] the bombing?
[00:49:23] Right.
[00:49:24] So this episode was fantastic.
[00:49:28] And I do want to talk about it.
[00:49:30] Uh, yeah, I want to talk about the history, but I also want to kind of frame it, um, the
[00:49:34] way that they do in the sense that like, you start, like we said with Yosef and, um, then
[00:49:41] go on to other things, which I think we'll, we'll cover after the break, but like there's,
[00:49:46] they do such a good job of using patterns to make rhymes across the different time periods
[00:49:53] that they, that they show.
[00:49:55] So, um, we, we, we start out with Yosef and Nagasaki.
[00:50:01] It's in black and white and it covers August 1st through 9th and it shows each day as it's
[00:50:08] going through, they like, or, you know, or different scenes, they tell us what day it
[00:50:12] is.
[00:50:12] So you get this sense, especially if you know what's coming, right.
[00:50:15] You, you like, for me, the tension just kept ratcheting up and bratching it up because
[00:50:20] they, they progress up by a, you know, a day or two and we get closer to the, the, the
[00:50:26] bombing and I'd be like, okay, oh no, oh no, oh no.
[00:50:32] Um, and then, uh, that, that, that comes back later and I'll, I'll save it for them.
[00:50:37] I, I was honestly wondering whether or not it was going to, when the bomb hit, we were going
[00:50:42] to get the wizard of Oz style, you know, switch to color at that point.
[00:50:47] Yeah.
[00:50:48] Um, it was, it was like very stress inducing.
[00:50:53] Um, but to, to talk a little bit about the, the, the historical, I mean, you know, I, I
[00:50:57] think most people, uh, know that, uh, that there were two atomic bombs dropped one on Hiroshima
[00:51:03] on August 6th, the other on Nagasaki on August 9th.
[00:51:07] Uh, Nagasaki was a target.
[00:51:09] It was actually the secondary target of the day.
[00:51:11] Uh, the primary target was a city named, uh, Kokura on the North end of Kyushu.
[00:51:16] Uh, but the weather was cloudy.
[00:51:18] And so the aircraft that was, uh, sent was a, you know, a USB 29 bomber, uh, named the,
[00:51:24] uh, uh, box car.
[00:51:26] Uh, it was, it, it diverted to its secondary target of, of Nagasaki.
[00:51:31] And they were, um, you know, because they were under orders to only drop the bomb if they
[00:51:37] had good visibility because, you know, the Americans wanted, uh, observation of the effects
[00:51:43] as much as possible.
[00:51:45] Um, oh yeah.
[00:51:47] Well, um, so why was Nagasaki, you know, a target?
[00:51:53] It was a major production center of weapons.
[00:51:55] It was very heavily, uh, industrialized area, particularly with, uh, war making material.
[00:52:01] Um, and, and so I thought it was very interesting because Yoseb is in a factory where they are
[00:52:08] making grenades and the grenade, the specific grenade that they're making is the type 97,
[00:52:15] uh, which is a, uh, uh, the standard issue, uh, Japanese grenade.
[00:52:21] It's not, um, it's ignited by pulling a cord and then you have to like, there's a pin on
[00:52:27] it that sticks out that you have to bang on a surface.
[00:52:30] So, you know, bang on a rock or like on your helmet or something like that.
[00:52:35] And then you throw it.
[00:52:36] Um, so I, because we're following this whole story of this, you know, young kind of disaffected
[00:52:43] Korean man that Yoseb is trying to like mentor and kind of keep out of trouble.
[00:52:48] But this guy's really angry.
[00:52:51] You're in a grenade factory.
[00:52:57] What's going to stop him?
[00:52:58] Like, you know, all the things that are going on.
[00:53:00] I'm like, just pick up a grenade and throw it, dude.
[00:53:04] Yeah.
[00:53:04] Why do you have to be all elaborate?
[00:53:05] Yeah.
[00:53:06] Right.
[00:53:07] At your fingertips.
[00:53:08] Um, which it would look weird for you to grab one, right.
[00:53:11] In order to grab a box of them or something.
[00:53:13] Yeah.
[00:53:14] And then I want to talk about a little bit just, uh, briefly about, so, you know, we talked
[00:53:18] about how, uh, through the course of trying to prevent this young, young man from using
[00:53:25] a, uh, tool to, to shank the supervisor that comes down to, uh, inspect the facility or
[00:53:33] whatever.
[00:53:33] Um, you know, Yosef is actually taken by the security and thrown into this truck because
[00:53:41] he, he, he's perceived as being the one causing a disturbance.
[00:53:45] Um, but that then at that moment, like as soon as he's in the truck and the doors are
[00:53:51] shut, that's, that's when the bomb hits, uh, good timing, I suppose for, for, for Yosef.
[00:53:57] Uh, but he's still obviously, you know, severely injured, uh, burned, you know, they show the
[00:54:07] radiation, uh, burns on him, uh, to us later.
[00:54:12] And so one of the things that he then ends up dealing with because, you know, he survives
[00:54:18] and, and this is the, is the, the, the, the, the kind of the stigma of being a survivor
[00:54:24] of one of the bombings.
[00:54:27] Survivor's guilt kind of thing.
[00:54:29] Well, not only that, but they're like, these are the particular, you mean, bombing was
[00:54:34] endemic across Japan, you know, everybody survived Tokyo, any major city was, was bombed
[00:54:39] by the Americans.
[00:54:40] And it, and what it's, it really, it's, it is a luck kind of thing, whether you're in
[00:54:44] the, right.
[00:54:45] The plane malfunction or it had to turn and they dropped their luck.
[00:54:48] I mean, there's so many gazillion factors that could, it's not your fault that you did.
[00:54:53] Specifically with Hiroshima and with Nagasaki, there's a stigma attached to being a survivor
[00:54:59] there because of their nuclear nature, because they were atomic bombs.
[00:55:04] There's a sense of, okay, you are tainted by radiation.
[00:55:09] Okay.
[00:55:10] The, the hibakusha, uh, which is the word that they, that they use to refer to the survivors
[00:55:15] of Nagasaki and, and, uh, Hiroshima, the, you know, as bombing victims.
[00:55:21] That makes me think of the, the stigma of AIDS, um, that, um, I forget what's her name, uh,
[00:55:27] in season one dies up because she's got that hair about it.
[00:55:31] Yeah.
[00:55:32] Yeah.
[00:55:33] Yeah.
[00:55:33] Yeah.
[00:55:33] It's carry on.
[00:55:34] It's someone.
[00:55:35] No, it's okay.
[00:55:36] So, so he leaves and is taken to Osaka or taken back to Osaka.
[00:55:41] Um, and, you know, again, we see this happen through Hanzu's, uh, uh, auspices, right?
[00:55:51] Like he, you know, pulls levers and, and is able to get Yosef out of there and back home,
[00:55:57] but he's then covered with these burns and whatever.
[00:56:00] And there's a, um, to, to me, it brings to mind this idea of these bombing victims as not just
[00:56:09] victims, but also these content as contaminated.
[00:56:11] And so the people around them don't want to, uh, you know, obviously the family is going to feel
[00:56:18] differently, but like, there's a stigma attached to you were at Nagasaki, you were at Hiroshima,
[00:56:24] you, you might be bringing radiation in that's now affecting me.
[00:56:28] Um, and so when we see him after the war and he's this recluse up hiding up in the second floor
[00:56:35] room and never coming out, I wonder how much of that is tied to not only his own personal sense of,
[00:56:42] of, of, you know, guilt, self-worth or lack of self-worth or, you know, inability to now be the
[00:56:49] provider for his family, but also tied up in this idea of, you know, I'm a pariah because I'm a
[00:56:57] radioactive survivor.
[00:56:59] And of course, Honsu is there is the one who is there when he wakes up and at first in the
[00:57:05] countryside, it's like, look, I provided it's this man who he knows is has the wrong kind of
[00:57:10] connections.
[00:57:11] He's like, look, I provided all of this for your family.
[00:57:14] I took care of your family.
[00:57:15] And now, you know, you are a cripple, so to speak.
[00:57:20] He's, you know, fine mobile, but, um, yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's a lot for him to swallow.
[00:57:28] And he just speaking of people going in on themselves.
[00:57:33] Right.
[00:57:34] Right.
[00:57:35] Yeah.
[00:57:36] But then, yeah, the war is over and it's time to return to Osaka and rebuild from the rubble.
[00:57:42] And maybe we should pick up with that after a break.
[00:57:44] Sounds like a good plan.
[00:57:46] Sounds good.
[00:57:47] Um, marker.
[00:58:00] And we are back.
[00:58:04] And we are back.
[00:58:07] And during, uh, the break, we paused recording for a little bit and made a decision that this is going
[00:58:15] to be a three part podcast because we just can't stop gushing about the show and talking
[00:58:22] about all the historical details and such.
[00:58:25] And I think one of the things that I, the three of us are appreciating is that we can take our
[00:58:32] time with it and go into these explorations and these nuances.
[00:58:36] And if we're rushed because of, uh, external pressures from our, our life schedules, it'd just
[00:58:41] be kind of a less fun podcast for us to do and, and ultimately less fun for you, the listener.
[00:58:47] So we, uh, what's our, do you want to set us up for what we're going to do, uh, for part
[00:58:53] three, uh, Alicia, tell, um, give us the outline for what we're going to do.
[00:58:57] Right.
[00:58:57] So part three, we're, we're going to come back and we're going to talk about, um, their life
[00:59:01] and, and there's a time jump and we, you know, jump forward to 1950 through 1951 in Osaka.
[00:59:08] So we're going to talk about all that and we're going to talk about the, uh, 1989 storyline
[00:59:15] going on in season two.
[00:59:16] And we have a bunch of-
[00:59:17] Which has got a lot of density.
[00:59:18] There's no way we can rush through that.
[00:59:20] Right.
[00:59:20] And, and, um, we got a bunch of feedback too.
[00:59:23] We have a ton of feedback.
[00:59:25] And I think that would also, uh, take a lot of time for us to actually consider, uh, appropriately
[00:59:30] consider, um, cause people, when people take time to write in, we like to make sure that
[00:59:35] we're, we're really listening and engaging with what they have to say.
[00:59:38] So because of life stuff, it's going to take a couple of weeks cause we've got, I know
[00:59:42] people are traveling.
[00:59:43] We have the American holiday.
[00:59:44] Yeah.
[00:59:44] Thanksgiving is, is coming up and, uh, yeah, we have other podcasts that we have to cover
[00:59:49] like Silo and Dune.
[00:59:52] Very, very dense shows.
[00:59:54] I have a semester to end.
[00:59:56] Oh yeah.
[00:59:56] Yeah.
[00:59:57] Yeah.
[00:59:58] You're coming up.
[00:59:58] You've got probably a, you got to finalize all your stuff for your students and get ready.
[01:00:03] Cool.
[01:00:04] All right.
[01:00:05] So, uh, well, Nate, uh, and Alicia, thank you both so very much for taking the time.
[01:00:11] I think we'll just mention Silo.
[01:00:13] You want to give a quick shout for that, Alicia?
[01:00:15] Right.
[01:00:16] So Silo season two is, uh, started up and going strong.
[01:00:20] We have one episode so far as we're recording.
[01:00:22] A second one comes out this Friday and, um, we're covering it on the wool shift dust feed.
[01:00:29] So you can find the link to the link tree in the show notes with all the different podcasts.
[01:00:34] Look for wool shift dust.
[01:00:35] You'll find silo coverage there.
[01:00:37] Plus there is additional spoiler coverage for people who want the book spoilers in the book club feed,
[01:00:43] which you'll find in any of the show notes on the wool shift dust feed, including season passes.
[01:00:50] And we've got, uh, Dune.
[01:00:53] We're about to, you and I, Alicia, are going to, we spent a lot of time together this week.
[01:00:57] You and I are going to be recording first thing tomorrow morning to get our Dune episode one.
[01:01:02] Right.
[01:01:03] Coverage out.
[01:01:04] And, uh, I believe we've got skeleton crew starting up in December and hopefully.
[01:01:10] And also do check out the extra Dune prep app in the wool shift dust feed as well.
[01:01:15] Absolutely.
[01:01:15] I think it's, it's really good context stuff.
[01:01:17] A couple of shout outs to a couple of our affiliates.
[01:01:21] We have radioactive ramblings.
[01:01:24] They just, uh, did howls moving castle studio Ghibli.
[01:01:30] And, uh, so check that out for a fun movie review with Aaron and his cohort.
[01:01:36] We have properly.
[01:01:38] Howard is back.
[01:01:40] I was surprised to see a podcast in my episodes in my feed the other day.
[01:01:47] And they are doing a theme called a few good films.
[01:01:52] And what they're doing is they're using the cast and writers and production people from
[01:01:56] a few good men, the 1992 movie.
[01:01:58] And then they had a, uh, Steve and Anthony did a little fun draft where they came up with
[01:02:03] a number of movies based on, um, uh, who was in that particular movie.
[01:02:10] It's a very fun list.
[01:02:12] It was a fun little draft that they did.
[01:02:14] Check out their channel on our discord and make sure that you subscribe to the properly
[01:02:21] Howard season or a feed.
[01:02:24] If you have not heard them before, the great thing about it is you don't necessarily have
[01:02:28] to have seen the movie or have any connection to the movie.
[01:02:30] It's just fun to listen to Steve and Anthony talk because they are funny.
[01:02:35] Steve's a standup comic.
[01:02:36] Anthony's a, uh, academic and their best friends from, from way back when they were their
[01:02:41] childhood friends.
[01:02:42] So go check out their episode.
[01:02:44] And then of course, nevermind the music, a new episode just dropped Depeche mode.
[01:02:48] Enjoy the silence.
[01:02:50] Uh, I got to preview this episode cause we're going to do a cross post on our main feed to
[01:02:55] get y'all to go over to their feed and subscribe because it's a different feed and, uh, that it's
[01:03:02] just a great episode and it's a great song.
[01:03:04] And, uh, uh, Nicole talks about, uh, the idea of, of what we call introversion or people
[01:03:10] who are introverts and sort of unpacks that and demystifies that word a little bit.
[01:03:15] And Mark talks about how nevermind the music or how, um, uh, enjoy the silence is sonically
[01:03:20] constructed and how that triggers some of that emotional reflectivity that then, uh, Nicole
[01:03:27] gets to talk about.
[01:03:28] It's a really good episode.
[01:03:28] So go make sure to check it out.
[01:03:32] Right.
[01:03:32] Uh, I think that about wraps it up.
[01:03:35] Um, Alicia, do you want to run through our lore hound lore masters and, uh, discord server
[01:03:44] boosters?
[01:03:45] Sure.
[01:03:48] All right.
[01:03:48] Thank you to our discord server boosters.
[01:03:51] Aaron K.
[01:03:52] Tiller the thriller.
[01:03:53] This is Alicia at midnight on the radio.
[01:03:55] Dork of the ninjas.
[01:03:57] Dove 71.
[01:03:58] Athena.
[01:03:58] Ajalea.
[01:03:59] Tina.
[01:03:59] Let's do Nancy M.
[01:04:00] Ghost of Partition.
[01:04:01] Richard W.
[01:04:02] Thank you.
[01:04:04] Thank you.
[01:04:04] Thank you to all of our listeners.
[01:04:05] Just, you know, keeping it real for a moment.
[01:04:07] Do you really make this all possible?
[01:04:09] Thank you, especially to, uh, the lore hounds, but thank you most of all, of course, to our
[01:04:15] lore masters.
[01:04:16] Samarsh, Michael G.
[01:04:17] Michelle E.
[01:04:18] Brian P.
[01:04:19] SC.
[01:04:19] Peter O.H.
[01:04:20] Bettina W.
[01:04:21] Adam S.
[01:04:21] Nancy M.
[01:04:22] Dove 71.
[01:04:23] Brian 8063.
[01:04:25] Frederick H.
[01:04:26] Sarah L.
[01:04:26] Garrett C.
[01:04:27] Eric F.
[01:04:28] Matthew M.
[01:04:29] Sarah M.
[01:04:29] DJ Miwa.
[01:04:30] Andra B.
[01:04:31] Kwong Yu.
[01:04:31] Dead Eye Jedi Bob.
[01:04:33] Nathan T.
[01:04:34] Alex B.
[01:04:34] Aaron T.
[01:04:35] Sub Zero.
[01:04:36] Aaron K.
[01:04:37] Dally V.
[01:04:37] Mothership 61.
[01:04:39] Narls.
[01:04:40] Kathy W.
[01:04:41] Lestu.
[01:04:42] Jeffrey B.
[01:04:42] Elisa Yu.
[01:04:43] Neil F.
[01:04:44] Ben B.
[01:04:45] Scott F.
[01:04:46] Steven N.
[01:04:47] And always last, Adrian.
[01:04:50] Ooh, perfectly timed.
[01:04:52] Well done.
[01:04:53] All right, everybody.
[01:04:55] Thanks so much.
[01:04:55] We will see you on Part 3.
[01:04:57] Nate, thanks again for making the time.
[01:04:59] It's great to talk to you.
[01:05:00] Always a pleasure.
[01:05:00] I can't wait till we talk about Godzilla maybe next year.
[01:05:04] We can definitely, we can set that up.
[01:05:08] It'll be like Godzilla plus four by the time we finish Pachinko.
[01:05:12] We can do it.
[01:05:14] Well, also if I could real quickly.
[01:05:17] Yes, please.
[01:05:19] Maybe you want to cut this out.
[01:05:20] I don't know.
[01:05:20] But Alicia, you talked about reading the book for Pachinko after this.
[01:05:26] And I think I remember it being mentioned on the board that there were other people who
[01:05:31] were interested in reading it.
[01:05:32] Yeah.
[01:05:33] Would we be interested in doing a...
[01:05:35] A book club.
[01:05:36] That sounds like a good idea.
[01:05:37] For that, you know, either on the Discord or something.
[01:05:40] Because I would really like to read it as well.
[01:05:43] Because again, I keep talking about how wonderful it is for my students to draw from this show.
[01:05:50] It may be something that I look at assigning in the future.
[01:05:53] But I have to read it first.
[01:05:55] Right.
[01:05:56] I support this out there.
[01:05:57] If people are interested, send your feedback.
[01:06:00] I mean, since we're obviously just dragging out the Pachinko talk, you know, we might as
[01:06:04] well make it the whole Pachinko series.
[01:06:06] Like we will get everyone watching and reading this story.
[01:06:10] I love it.
[01:06:10] I love it.
[01:06:11] All right.
[01:06:11] More details about that.
[01:06:12] That sounds like it's an idea that's going to definitely go forward.
[01:06:17] Yeah.
[01:06:17] So shout out on the Discord or send us an email to lorehounds at thelorehounds.com if you
[01:06:22] are in for that.
[01:06:23] And we will see you on part three.
[01:06:25] And hopefully we'll have some more book club information.
[01:06:27] All right.
[01:06:27] Ciao.
[01:06:27] Bye.
[01:06:30] The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds.
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