Shōgun - E08 - The Abyss of Life (Part 2 of 2)

[00:00:00] Hey listeners! If you've been listening to our show, Chances are you've heard the wonderful

[00:00:07] contributions of our favorite Tolkien scholar Marilyn R. Pukila. Marilyn just launched her own

[00:00:12] podcast on our network called Rings and Rituals. Join me and Dr. Sara Brown on our journey through

[00:00:17] The Lord of the Rings, The Rings of Power, through the Lens of Ritual. Episodes drop every other

[00:00:23] Wednesday on The Rings and Rituals feed, linked in the show notes. See you there!

[00:00:46] Welcome to the Shogun podcast where The Lorehounds, your guide to the political intrigues of feudal

[00:00:51] Japan. I'm David. I'm John and this is our coverage. Oh, oh, oh, I'm back. You're back!

[00:00:59] I was expecting Alicia. I know, I know. It's been a long time. I've been in the abyss of life. Yes,

[00:01:06] indeed. Well, welcome back. It's good to hear your voice. Thank you. And also with you,

[00:01:11] I think this is our... We did second breakfast about a week ago, but other than that, it's been

[00:01:15] like three or four weeks since I've really done a full breakdown. So let's get into it.

[00:01:21] All right. All right. This is our coverage for episode eight titled The Abyss of Life

[00:01:26] of the FX limited series Shogun. So we're going to start off today with our hot takes. Well,

[00:01:31] we're going to do an abbreviated hot takes because I already did half an hour with Alicia.

[00:01:36] Yeah. But we'll touch on the episode a little bit and then we're going to get into a discussion

[00:01:40] of plot, theme, character along with our favorite moments. We've got some historical

[00:01:45] notes that we'll throw in in the front before we do the break. And then we've got

[00:01:49] some listener feedback. We got a great voicemail from Abby and a couple of emails.

[00:01:54] Cool. Please send us feedback as we love to hear your thoughts and reactions.

[00:01:58] Send it all to shogunatthelorhounds.com or head to the contact page on our website,

[00:02:03] thelorhounds.com, and use the form or record us a voicemail that we can drop right into the

[00:02:07] episode. If you would like, you can support the community by going to Supercast or Patreon

[00:02:15] and you can support us there. We'll talk more about all of that at the end of the podcast

[00:02:20] as well. We'd invite you to join the ongoing conversation on our Discord. Again, links in the

[00:02:27] show notes as well. We've got a whole bunch of... We're sponsoring four and a half other podcasts,

[00:02:32] John. I know. It's crazy. It's crazy. We just brought online a Fallout podcast.

[00:02:36] Our fifth grows. It does with Aaron and Chase and they're doing a Fallout. We have

[00:02:42] Marilyn and Dr. Sarah Brown doing rings and rituals, deep dive Tolkien stuff. We've got Anthony

[00:02:49] and Steve doing a season of felonies and fugazies. I know. We've got 4.5 cuckoos going.

[00:02:55] That's right. Exactly. Your podcast fiefdom is measured in cuckoo of podcasts.

[00:03:01] Cuckoos. I'm doing the Blackshorn thing. Don't worry, Abby. You don't need to write in.

[00:03:04] It's okay. Anyway, we'll talk more about it at the end of the podcast. There are links.

[00:03:09] Please go to the links in the show notes and subscribe to all of those podcasts and listen

[00:03:14] to them. John, you've had a lot of catching up. Well, I don't know. Did you have to catch up

[00:03:19] and run or did you? Have you been keeping along? Well, now I've had a few days to think about

[00:03:23] it all because I caught up. I finished catching up middle of the week this week.

[00:03:28] Okay. And I was like, all right. So I had enough time to digest all this.

[00:03:33] I can't believe how good the show is. I can't believe how well it's going.

[00:03:38] I mean, I was hesitant to take on the show because I'm always, I'm just always hesitant

[00:03:43] to take on like, all right, this is going to be the next Game of Thrones. And that's

[00:03:47] what this was being presented as. Right. I was like, every time I hear that, I'm disappointed.

[00:03:53] Non-franchise, prestige stuff. We've been, we've been, we've gotten our fingers burned

[00:03:58] a couple of times in the past. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this is, this is the real deal.

[00:04:02] This is. And I've also been listening to the audio book the whole time. Right. I'm about

[00:04:08] three quarters through the book at this point. And I'm about on par with where we're at

[00:04:12] on the show, which makes sense. But it's so different. It's like a completely different

[00:04:18] story after episode like four or five. Okay. And in, I think in a good way,

[00:04:23] I think they really elevate this story by focusing on different characters. Like the book

[00:04:29] is really Blackthorn's story. Right, right. This show. A foreigner in a strange land,

[00:04:35] a strange man in a strange land kind of thing. Right. This show though, is about

[00:04:41] Mariko and Torinaga and even Omi and Yabushige. Like everybody has some part of it. And they're

[00:04:47] really using it as a kaleidoscope. Oh, do I dare use the word? They're using it as a kaleidoscope

[00:04:52] to show us the different aspects of this society, to show us the freeing things about this way of

[00:04:57] life, to show us the imprisoning ways of the, the imprisoning aspects of this way of life. And I

[00:05:03] think it's really a really beautiful rich tapestry they've woven. Wait, wait, John, are you weaving

[00:05:09] tapestries? I'm in your head. I know. I know. Anyway, loving it. This episode is no different.

[00:05:18] I think, you know, not a single thing I would change. It was really good. There were a couple,

[00:05:24] I guess my one critique would be, I thought Mariko did feel like a little bit of

[00:05:30] a shock for a minute, her statement to Buntoro. But the more I thought about it, the more I

[00:05:36] liked it because I was like, okay, that actually makes a lot of sense. And what's brilliant about

[00:05:42] it, I want to talk about it later, but what's brilliant about it is it pushes back against

[00:05:45] one of the biggest critiques of the book, which is this obsession that Clavel gives the

[00:05:50] Japanese characters with death and suicide. Right. Oh, interesting. That's a good, that's a really

[00:05:57] this interesting counterpoint. She's refusing the death. Right, because she's saying,

[00:06:03] the only reason I asked for death was to get the hell away from you. I'm not going to death

[00:06:07] with you. And that's great because it makes it so much richer, right? Her motivations

[00:06:15] make so much more sense. Because honestly, her obsession with I, you know, he keeps refusing

[00:06:19] my death felt a little tonally dissonant with the series in the show, even though it's

[00:06:25] very common in the book, right? I mean, there's a whole scene in the book that didn't happen

[00:06:28] in the show early on. That's like Blackthorn, Red Leaves to Commit, Zippuku. And that

[00:06:35] makes everybody all of a sudden have respect for him. Right. And so there's this really, I think,

[00:06:42] inaccurate it seems like and kind of slightly offensive obsession with suicide that Clavel

[00:06:49] gives these characters. Whereas in this show, we see that Zippuku is a duty, but not everybody

[00:06:56] wants to do it. And the people who do want to do it have their reasons, right? It's not

[00:07:03] something random. It's not like, oh, I'm obsessed with death. I'm Mariko. I'm just obsessed with

[00:07:07] death. I'm this lovely flower from John Blackthorn to pick. And I'm just withering away too quickly.

[00:07:14] No, it's not that she is a full character who just wants some autonomy and that's beautiful.

[00:07:20] Dang, you got a lot to say. I do. It's been a while. So,

[00:07:25] you want to give your quick thoughts inside? Yeah, just just a quick. I got to talk a

[00:07:29] little bit about it with Alicia on our little half hour pot. I loved everybody's reactions.

[00:07:33] They were like, I saw the podcast drop and I noticed that it was only 30 minutes and I was like,

[00:07:38] what the hell? So sorry to surprise everybody. We wanted to get you something until John and

[00:07:44] I were able to get together. I think the thing that I want to say the most about this more

[00:07:51] series meta commentary that the construction of the episodes is really extraordinary. The way

[00:07:58] that they keep the majority of the screen time of any given episode so tightly focused on really on

[00:08:05] one main plot point that everybody sort of weaving around with only minor deviations or little side

[00:08:12] plots just to keep things going. And that's extraordinary. And it's a bit of an inversion

[00:08:17] of the idea of, well, we've got this character and that ABCDEF plots and going to this idea

[00:08:24] that sometimes less is more and by narrowing our focus, we're getting a greater picture of the whole

[00:08:33] world by looking at the micro. Sure. You get a sense of the macro. Sounds like a tea ceremony.

[00:08:40] And it's an incredible way to tell stories. And right now this show is trending as a damn near

[00:08:50] perfect season. And it's such a complex world that they've built, but I never have felt lost.

[00:08:57] I've never felt slowed down. I've never caught myself looking at my phone. I'm always right on

[00:09:03] the edge of my seat with the story. And that's really incredible. And one thing I want to do

[00:09:08] just on a construction rather than because we're going to talk about character and plot later,

[00:09:13] but there was a construction that they set up in this episode. And they've done this a

[00:09:18] couple of times where they will introduce something at the beginning and then that'll be like this little

[00:09:24] sliver of a B plot. And then they'll cap the episode with a resolution of that at the end of the episode.

[00:09:32] And so they create these little rhyming couplets throughout. And there's this one really great

[00:09:36] scene where Hiramatsu and Toronaga, we have their big ending situation at the end of

[00:09:46] this episode. But it was kind of set up earlier on when Alvino was there. And Hiramatsu is in the

[00:09:55] same place that he will later then commit seppuku. And there's all the stuff that's going on there.

[00:10:05] And it's just an incredible amount of attention to detail and to character and to plotting.

[00:10:12] And every episode is so well constructed that never once is my attention wavered off the screen

[00:10:20] during this. And that's a really extraordinary accomplishment.

[00:10:24] I think to your point, I think that's a great point. I think to your point,

[00:10:28] season structure makes a lot of sense too because you've got these characters really

[00:10:34] naturally developing with the same motivations. For example, Yabashige in the beginning

[00:10:40] was saying, you know, rescue the Anjun son. And he does that without orders from Toronaga.

[00:10:47] And Toronaga is like, yeah, I could use this loose cannon guy.

[00:10:52] Literally cannon. He will always do what he thinks is best for him. So Toronaga makes

[00:10:57] him think that this thing is best for him, right? That's one of his tools with Yabashige.

[00:11:04] He's able to lead him. And Blackthorn will always do an impulsive thing that he thinks will get him

[00:11:12] out of the execution chamber in this moment. And that's going to Yabashige in this episode.

[00:11:18] It crimson horseshit.

[00:11:20] It crimson horseshit, right?

[00:11:22] Yeah. So I mean, really great, really, really great stuff.

[00:11:26] Yeah. It's an incredible piece of television. I'm so glad. I was kind of nervous.

[00:11:33] Same with you going into it, going like, oh, this could just be a microwaved

[00:11:38] reheat of the original series. But this is an extraordinary television show.

[00:11:44] Right. And I think if they had just done a straight adaptation of the book,

[00:11:46] it would have been a failure.

[00:11:48] Agreed. Agreed. They really have taking it, developing the story in new ways and actually

[00:11:56] going with the characters and letting the characters. And then it's interesting listening

[00:11:59] to the official podcast a little bit about how much input the actors have had in their characters

[00:12:04] and how that's led in certain directions. So yeah, aces. Okay.

[00:12:09] Yeah. I just want to say one more thing.

[00:12:11] Please.

[00:12:11] I think that the book really stalls out in the middle and really the action.

[00:12:17] You know, it's not that you need action all the time, but you need some kind of tension

[00:12:21] building to keep me hooked. And this show has done an amazing job of getting like Saiki.

[00:12:27] And see, I listened to Abby's voicemail. I'm trying before I even start. So Saiki and

[00:12:35] you have Nagakado. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ochi-ba is another one where you're just like,

[00:12:42] what is her motivation? And there's so many things simmering.

[00:12:46] They didn't introduce her till episode five. Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible.

[00:12:51] Yeah. Well, anyway, why don't we talk a little bit about the history before we dive into the

[00:12:56] episode? Sure. So I just put two points here. I wanted to talk about the tea ceremony,

[00:13:00] which I guess is called Chanoyu. Okay. Maybe Abby will tell me how to pronounce that one.

[00:13:07] But yeah, it's basically a very true ancient ritual. It's got four guiding principles.

[00:13:18] It's harmony, respect, purity and tranquility. Okay. And the whole point of it is to sort

[00:13:24] of make you focus on these really stylized, really precise movements and just experiencing the tea

[00:13:33] ceremony so that it evokes self-awareness and honesty and generosity. And so this is what

[00:13:41] Buntura was trying to do. He's like, let me break down whatever barriers are between us.

[00:13:46] Reset our relationship. Yeah. And let me pitch you a joint suicide.

[00:13:52] Yeah. And I think probably, as I understand it, being a tea ceremony master, it's something that

[00:14:03] a samurai or a noble would have had experienced with and try to excel at. And where in their

[00:14:11] relationship in the past did he make tea for her? Right. You know, as part of their relationship.

[00:14:16] So let's go back. Let's go to the place that we first dated or something like that.

[00:14:21] The first cafe we had our first coffee here. He's trying to get back to that essential nature of

[00:14:26] their relationship, but he fails to read the room again. Totally. Totally. Anyway, it does seem that

[00:14:35] the tea pouring, the preparation of tea in itself is considered a performance. Right. And

[00:14:41] that's even true if you go in the book when Blackthorn is taken to Kiku by Mariko,

[00:14:48] he is watching her pour tea and she's like, hey, you need to compliment her right now.

[00:14:53] You need to think that was a good performance. So it's very important, this whole thing,

[00:14:56] this give and take. And I'm really glad that they captured it so well because I was so taken

[00:15:03] with this. And that matcha looked good. I want some of that too. Listen to the shout out

[00:15:09] to the official podcast for episode eight. They have a great conversation about not only

[00:15:14] the tea ceremony itself, but designing that room and making sure that they could film in that room

[00:15:20] and actually capture the ceremony in a particular way. So very cool. And there's a whole thing about

[00:15:25] like when you enter, you have to come through a door that's just too small for anybody.

[00:15:30] And no matter your rank, you have to come through the small door and no weapons. Right.

[00:15:35] So it's like a really, it's supposed to be really humbling. It's supposed to sort of

[00:15:39] make you focus on specific trees in the forest so that you're distracted from the whole distraction of

[00:15:46] life. Interesting. Anyway, one more point I wanted to make about the history. I know you have some

[00:15:53] things though. Yeah. There's this and I wrote the word geisha on the outline, even though

[00:16:00] that's not used in the show. It is used in the book, I think historically inaccurately.

[00:16:05] Correct. Because geishas did not appear until a couple hundred years later.

[00:16:10] But the foundation of the profession is in this era. Like this is accurate.

[00:16:15] That this era saw Edo establish the first districts for sex work and districts for

[00:16:24] the legitimization of it. And I think, you know, Torinaga's seeing tax.

[00:16:31] You know, his soldiers spend a lot of money. He's going to get a lot of that back in taxes.

[00:16:36] And he's seeing safety for people. Right? You know, you have these organizations and

[00:16:42] they'll be right next to the church keeping an eye on them. And

[00:16:45] there'll be some kind of legitimacy with a guild and everything. Right. Right.

[00:16:50] So I think it's very cool. There is a much more explicit. I think the show does a better

[00:16:55] job of like being subtle. Whereas the book is very explicit where Ginn comes in and says,

[00:17:02] oh, yeah, we're going to create a new profession, you know, a geisha if you will. And they're going

[00:17:06] to do art and not focus on sex necessarily. And this and that. It's like it's a little bit

[00:17:12] it's a little bit on the nose, you know, but they did a really good job with the subtlety

[00:17:16] in the show. Cool. Yeah, I had a few notes as well. I wanted to just quickly touch on the

[00:17:24] funeral that this is a Buddhist funeral. But as Nate pointed out on the discord too,

[00:17:32] it's with a Shinto surrounding like to actually enter through one of the Shinto gates to come

[00:17:40] into this area. But those are Buddhist monks. And that is a to do a cremation as a Buddhist

[00:17:47] ceremony in and of itself. So I was doing just a little bit of a light reading about

[00:17:52] Shintoism and Buddhism and how that they are actually very compatible in Japan. And they people would

[00:17:58] often do certain things in with Shinto and then other things in Buddhism and that neither were

[00:18:07] antagonistic to each other. And in fact, often very complimentary and in certain temples and

[00:18:12] religious centers, there would be representations of the other there at the same time. So I thought

[00:18:20] it was really interesting, you know, in Shinto, which is a polytheistic and animistic religion,

[00:18:26] I guess, or perhaps not a religion. Not Yeah, I was actually kind of air quoting the religion

[00:18:31] with the belief in spirits and Kami, which sort of inhabits everything as well as

[00:18:38] thinking about ancestors a lot. So I really loved the funeral scene and seeing that the white

[00:18:46] in Japan apparently is a color is the color of death wears a lot of Western

[00:18:50] cultures that we use black for symbolizing death. And then the whole stylized ritual of

[00:18:56] washing the body and placing it and doing all the different things, even having a wake, which

[00:19:00] we see with Omi when Omi gives a speech for his friend. So they really put a lot of thought

[00:19:09] and effort into the whole funeral ceremony, which was really lovely. They did. You know,

[00:19:16] can I just add? Yes, please. So point. Yeah, yeah. There's a whole passage in the book that I thought

[00:19:21] was really fascinating, which I understand why they would cut it for time in the show, but I

[00:19:25] thought it was really interesting. And maybe somebody could write in who somebody familiar

[00:19:29] with these traditions could write into say if this is accurate or not. But this idea of Mariko

[00:19:35] expresses the Blackthorn. She he's like, you consider yourself Shinto. She goes,

[00:19:40] Yeah, I'm Shinto as much as I'm Japanese. That doesn't conflict with my Christianity.

[00:19:44] That's just part of being Japanese. Everyone in Japan is Shinto because it's not really

[00:19:50] necessarily theistic even, right? It's just spirits. And so and I think the same thing

[00:19:55] is true of Buddhism, right? Like there are, I mean, even today you see there are

[00:19:59] Christians who say I like the philosophies of Buddhism and I don't subscribe to the

[00:20:04] theology of it, but that doesn't mean I can't practice this wise person's

[00:20:09] teachings. Right, right. So I thought that's interesting. It's an interesting

[00:20:14] distinction between sort of a religion and cultural foundation.

[00:20:19] Right, in a way of believing the framework that you're

[00:20:23] the matrix at which you're looking at life and your understanding things as opposed to being

[00:20:29] a monotheistic, which is there's one path and there's one salvation. And this is what

[00:20:35] you got to do to get through the gate. Well, also, I think it just this whole conversation

[00:20:39] kind of betrays a Western understanding of religion, right? Because

[00:20:44] Eastern religions and I know the world does not actually have an East and a West, but I'm

[00:20:47] using it as shorthand. So you know what I mean? But this, you know, Eastern religions,

[00:20:53] people don't think about religion the same way, especially in the traditional

[00:20:57] sense, right? Right. It's not like I need to believe wholeheartedly in this one tradition

[00:21:04] at the exclusion of all others rules to obey. Yeah, religion and philosophy are much more

[00:21:10] similar. And there's not this kind of elevation of religion over philosophy in terms of faith,

[00:21:18] right? Faith and is such a it feels very tied to Christianity and Western culture in general,

[00:21:26] this idea of like I need to wholeheartedly believe this or it's meaningless. Anyway,

[00:21:33] that's for a more philosophical point. It's a different. I wanted to make a quick

[00:21:40] highlight across the poetry or Waka. There was a lot of poetry in this episode, at least two

[00:21:48] instances of poetry with Mariko and Buntero, and then again with Toronaga. And so

[00:21:58] I did a quick scouting of the information available on the internets. And I didn't realize

[00:22:04] that there's a whole range of poetry far and away beyond haiku. I mean, haiku is something that I

[00:22:11] remember learning in grade school. And we sort of learned the 575 pattern, which of course,

[00:22:17] English syllable construction is different than Japanese syllable construction. So we have to

[00:22:22] bear that in mind as well in terms of translations. And where we know haiku and it's about nature and

[00:22:29] these fleeting moments of life, there's Senryu, which is like haiku, but it's a bit more

[00:22:36] sthetrical and about human nature. It still has that 575 pattern, but it goes into more about

[00:22:44] sort of poking fun. It's a little bit more comical and a little bit more observational.

[00:22:51] I guess there's something called Choka, which is a long form poetry where you can just go on much

[00:22:56] further. And Tonka, which is a 57577, which gets into emotions and observations of nature,

[00:23:05] reflections of life. And then there's Renga, which is linked verse where you might be sitting

[00:23:10] around and Nate has a great post on our discord about this going because I was like,

[00:23:15] wait, is that a Tonka or a Renga? And he's like, oh, Renga and a Lingverse. And he

[00:23:20] gave a whole great description of this where you could be at the bar with your friends,

[00:23:24] drink and sake. And you would get into a poetry rounds where you would be sort of

[00:23:28] improving off of each other. And so we see a little bit of that where Mariko and Buntero are

[00:23:36] doing that where she opens up with something and then he comments and she finishes it off.

[00:23:40] So there's a whole rich world, especially for nobles and samurai. Samurai, I believe,

[00:23:47] were expected to be as good with their poetry as they were with swords. That's something,

[00:23:53] especially if you're a noble, like you should be working on along with your tea ceremony.

[00:23:57] So it's not just... I think this goes to your point earlier about this western

[00:24:06] skewing of the lens of death and sepku and things like that. There was so much

[00:24:11] life-affirming cultural practice, tea ceremonies and art and calligraphy and swordsmanship and poetry.

[00:24:20] So it was a much richer environment than just what we have sort of seen in a lot of film where

[00:24:27] we see samurai fighting and this kind of stuff. It was a very different experience.

[00:24:32] Right. So I love that they were able to touch on that and open that up a little bit

[00:24:36] on the show this week. I didn't do anything really on any research on hawks this time around.

[00:24:43] I got into...

[00:24:44] Before this podcast, he wanted to catch a movie.

[00:24:47] Yes.

[00:24:48] He's just going on about hawks that he doesn't know anything about.

[00:24:51] Asipiders. I got bogged down into morphology and all this kind of stuff. Just know that

[00:24:58] peregrines are the fastest animal on the earth and they fly high and they come down hard

[00:25:02] and fast where gauze hawks hunt at the edge of forest. They're very opportunistic hunters

[00:25:07] using a lot of stealth. But they were... In western Europe, they were considered the cook's bird,

[00:25:12] which was meaning that they were very proficient at capturing game. So

[00:25:17] where I think Maudeco is a peregrine and Blackthorn and Yabushige are definitely gauze hawks.

[00:25:23] You unleash Mariko when you need her.

[00:25:25] Right. And she flies high and then you don't even see her and she's like a bullet out

[00:25:29] of the sky. Cool.

[00:25:30] All right. Let's take a quick break. When we get back, we will dive deeper into the episode.

[00:25:47] And we're back. David, we've got a lot to talk about.

[00:25:51] We do.

[00:25:52] Shall we do themes or shall we go right into...

[00:25:55] I think we just skipped this themes for now other than to point out that the topics of

[00:26:01] allegiance and loyalty and again, fate were very present in this. And then I think we can talk

[00:26:08] about allegiance maybe later. But I just thought it was very interesting that they're asking these

[00:26:12] questions of when is loyalty a disservice or does it do harm? I thought Omi's path

[00:26:18] through way through this was very interesting. But there's a lot of subtlety in the way that

[00:26:24] they're rolling these themes out. And it's really beautiful to see because they're not

[00:26:30] pointing a big like, oh, here's the theme. The characters are working their way through these

[00:26:38] things as part of what they're trying to accomplish in the story. And it's just

[00:26:44] great. It's so literary. It's perfect. Anyway, I think we should move on.

[00:26:51] Let's move on to Nagakado's funeral. I didn't get to comment on his death, but

[00:26:57] for a guy who you really wanted to punch in the face the whole series, you do feel really bad for

[00:27:03] him at the moment of death. And that's effective writing is making me feel

[00:27:08] badly for someone who I truly thought was a total little shit the whole series.

[00:27:15] But there's going to be 49 days of mourning. Of course, Torinaga skips the first day at

[00:27:19] least. And the generals are wearing their armor in protest at the funeral.

[00:27:26] Interesting. And we got three new characters, which we don't really get to meet or know or

[00:27:31] know their names. But yet there are a presence and it makes sense, right? He would have other

[00:27:36] forces and especially protecting his main city. So it introduced a new element into the dynamics.

[00:27:45] And it was really, I thought we were going to stay in Ajiro the whole time and suddenly we're in

[00:27:51] Edo and it's like, whoa, whole new world, new characters. Yeah. Well, they go to Edo in the

[00:27:56] book, but it's like totally different circumstances. So I'm not a believer. But yeah,

[00:28:01] and I love that Torinaga is doing, I think Alicia called it 10 D chess in your 30 minute

[00:28:08] podcast. He's doing such a good job at 10 D chess that his own generals are like ready to

[00:28:14] literally kill themselves rather than go along with his plan. Right. And I think that's interesting.

[00:28:20] This is sliding sideways a little bit, but the theater that Torinaga has to put on

[00:28:29] so that it's so convincing because there are spies everywhere and it's like, oh,

[00:28:33] of course there's spies everywhere. And they even dropped a couple of spy notes in the episode.

[00:28:39] And so the idea that he's able to use Nagar Kato's funeral as part of this theater is so cold

[00:28:50] and calculating, but damn it's so effective. Yeah. And it gives him that time, this extra 49 days

[00:29:01] to figure things out. And I just, I can't wonder like what would have happened if Nagar Kato was

[00:29:08] successful in killing his uncle? What then would have Torinaga's play been? Like how would have that

[00:29:13] have worked out? I don't know. I think that Psyche's people would have just murdered everybody in

[00:29:19] that village because they outnumbered them by a large number. That's a good point.

[00:29:24] That's a very good point. But the element of surprise was with Torinaga. So maybe,

[00:29:29] I'm going to put it to a coin flip. Yeah, but then what's the political allegiance? It's like,

[00:29:35] okay, my son killed you, but I'm still a Minawara and I'm still his older brother. So yeah,

[00:29:41] there's a lot there. Yeah, the honor thing would be to have Nagar Kato commit seppuku,

[00:29:49] right, is to put him to death for the killing of his uncle, illegal killing of his uncle,

[00:29:55] of a region, of a region, of a region. See, if it wasn't, if he wasn't a region, then it would

[00:30:00] might be different. I don't think so. Interesting. I think, you know, is this guy is a Lord,

[00:30:05] whether you like it or not, you can't go around killing Lords outside of war.

[00:30:10] And they're not in war technically. Can't you? Okay, look at this. Look at the

[00:30:15] circumstances of this killing. He uses a courtesan to deceive him into being naked

[00:30:23] and unarmed. And you know, I just don't think there's any honor in that. As far as this society,

[00:30:31] I'm not saying I'm going to make a moral case against it, but as far as the rules of this society,

[00:30:36] as they've taught us, I think Nagar Kato has to commit seppuku after that.

[00:30:40] I mean, the fact that he died in this accidental way and wasn't successful at least

[00:30:49] Torinaga gets his 49 days and gets to go back to Edo. I think he'd still get his 49 days.

[00:30:55] Maybe, maybe not. Actually, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe somebody could write in the rules of

[00:31:00] mourning after seppuku. Right. Anyway, fascinating and fascinating to see Torinaga constantly

[00:31:08] planning and scheming, even though we don't see it. Yes. But he's constantly on the outside of

[00:31:14] these circumstances going, okay, how do I use this to my advantage? How do I take it, you

[00:31:18] know, what do I do now? Oh, shit. Like that didn't go the way that I wanted. Oh, he shot him with a

[00:31:23] cannon. Oh crap. What do I do now? You know, I was honestly convinced myself that he had given up

[00:31:30] until towards the end. I didn't believe he were a monotone. I was like, right now he's done

[00:31:35] with this guys. I thought it was all hopeful, you know, wishful thinking. They did an

[00:31:42] excellent job of leading us on. Yeah. But it was believable by the end, right? That he

[00:31:47] was playing. You know, when he was on the horse at the beginning of this episode and doing his

[00:31:51] whole sick man thing, I was like, boy. Well, I wasn't believing that. But I did believe that he

[00:31:57] was sick by the time we got to him waking up in the morning and coughing with no reason around to

[00:32:02] hear. I just thought the acting was great. Like I'm going to pretend to be sick, but

[00:32:08] I'm going to pretend to be sick being pretending to be sick. I don't know. It was

[00:32:11] great. It was really I don't know. I don't know. I still think he might actually be sick, but we'll

[00:32:16] say okay. We'll say, um, oh, me and the wake. Yes, you enjoy that? Yeah, I thought that was really

[00:32:23] good. And I have really regardless of some of Blackthorn's attitudes and comments towards

[00:32:33] Omi. I thought his character development, see, that's the thing is that none of these characters

[00:32:40] are single in dimension. They are giving us even the ones that are like, oh, he's kind of a little

[00:32:47] bit of a shit stain or, you know, uh, you know, he's a weird guy who boils people. But suddenly

[00:32:53] all of them are multi dimensional. And so Omi talking about his friend and speaking up

[00:33:00] in this sort of August company of all these other people, he's just a kid from a village. He's like

[00:33:06] a, you know, no better than a mayor and suddenly he's at the center table. It was a really incredible

[00:33:14] moment for his character. I really loved it. I think he's going through a lot of character

[00:33:18] growth totally the course of this series. You know, I think he really was an awful

[00:33:22] person at the start of this, a very opportunistic. And I'm not saying he's not now, but he's

[00:33:27] certainly learning that actions have consequences. Yeah. Yeah. Shall we talk about Lady Ochiba?

[00:33:35] Yes, let's do that. So Ishido says, babe, I see no one but you. I worship you. I worship you.

[00:33:45] Yeah. You could see she got the ick when he did that. Totally. She was like, oh,

[00:33:52] interesting. And of course you have Dayo, oh man, I'm pronouncing that one right.

[00:33:58] I think it's pretty good. That's pretty close. Dayo. Yeah.

[00:34:03] You know, saying he's nothing and he comes from nothing. Yikes.

[00:34:11] That was a, that was a like talk about, you know, the sense of nobility and aristocracy and sort

[00:34:18] of being better than others. It really smacked in that moment of, oh yeah, he will never be one of us

[00:34:29] no matter what. So it's interesting to wonder what her choice is then to then go ahead with the

[00:34:36] marriage. What did she decide in that moment? I don't know what she is. I don't know what

[00:34:43] she is in the end. But she, you know, so there she is. She's facing the mortal, you know, her own

[00:34:49] mortality in that moment as she's watching her first consort, you know, grandmother, wife. I don't,

[00:34:56] you know, I don't know how to describe your relationship. Her sister's wife.

[00:34:58] Yes, her sister's wife. There you go. Brother, uncle, sister's wife. Next week on TLC.

[00:35:02] Well, I've been watching a lot of Res Dogs and it's very interesting how they do this.

[00:35:06] So there was an all episode about a brother, a brother, uncle just recently and it's like,

[00:35:11] what's his relationship? I don't know. He's my brother. He's my cousin brother or something like

[00:35:15] that. I forget what it is. But these fuzzy lines, it doesn't matter. We're connected, you know, how

[00:35:20] you put whatever labels you want on it. Anyway, what did she take from that moment of,

[00:35:27] you know, if her enemy is fear and she hides all the time and seeing this woman who's known

[00:35:35] her for a long time and there's a lot of complexity in their relationship,

[00:35:39] what did she take away from that and how did that affect her motivation to ultimately accept

[00:35:48] Isshido's proposal? It's interesting. I don't know. I don't know what to make of it.

[00:35:54] You know, I don't know either, especially after Dayo-ing, I'm really trying guys,

[00:36:00] after Dayo-ing asks her to release the hostages and dies, you know, she for a second,

[00:36:07] she does the whole crying over her thing. Then she just really like puts herself together,

[00:36:14] puts this mask on and I honestly, it made me wonder was she ever feeling grief?

[00:36:22] Was Isshido just a sociopath and she was just doing the act because she's supposed

[00:36:26] to be mourning right now or is she just so traumatized that she's forced to hide behind

[00:36:33] these masks once, you know, she's done her duty? She's got a 128K folded fence.

[00:36:40] It's not eight, it's 100. She is really deep in there and I think that was a beautiful

[00:36:46] scene because she came without her robes, without her makeup, with her hair or not.

[00:36:51] You know, she's not in her usual state and she's very raw and authentic in that moment

[00:37:00] and then once she composed it, I think she did have a real moment of grief.

[00:37:04] Okay.

[00:37:04] But that was a moment but then she was like, oh, that's weakness. I got to go back into my-

[00:37:10] Give yourself the ick.

[00:37:11] Yeah.

[00:37:12] Oh no.

[00:37:13] And go back into her whole, you know, composed self.

[00:37:20] So.

[00:37:20] Well, we'll just have to see because she's just so obscured in her motivations right now

[00:37:26] that I just can't read her.

[00:37:27] But dangerous, extremely dangerous.

[00:37:30] Yeah, yeah. Speaking of dangerous in terms of hairstyles, Alvito, other Alvito.

[00:37:36] His hat fits perfectly.

[00:37:40] So he's got this weird interaction with Blackthorn for the beginning of the episode.

[00:37:45] He's like, hey, you know, you're supposed to live in the castle, right?

[00:37:50] He's like, well, and Blackthorn's force like, give me this. I actually want to go.

[00:37:55] I didn't want wood.

[00:37:58] But the best part of that, I think, is just this prediction of the cold welcome of his crew,

[00:38:04] right? You're going to wear that.

[00:38:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:38:05] I think it's near your crew.

[00:38:06] Yeah.

[00:38:07] Yeah.

[00:38:07] Loved it.

[00:38:08] Loved it.

[00:38:09] And can I say on the whole thing with meeting the crew, in the book they give him like a warm

[00:38:14] welcome. It's like he just showed up to the party.

[00:38:18] Okay.

[00:38:18] And it's so different in a good way.

[00:38:22] I think it's good to have him be in this uneasy place of, I don't have a home anymore.

[00:38:26] Right.

[00:38:27] Right.

[00:38:28] So I really like that.

[00:38:30] Yeah.

[00:38:30] But this and this othering that, you know, he's and he's in between worlds now, right?

[00:38:35] He can never truly be Japanese, nor can he ever really go back.

[00:38:40] Yeah.

[00:38:40] I mean, the moment he gets a whiff of his crew, he's utterly disgusted.

[00:38:46] Well, you know, it's interesting because another big change they made from the book

[00:38:49] is that at this point, Blackthorn, he's not fluent in Japanese, but he speaks enough Japanese

[00:38:54] to be able to speak in basically broken Japanese.

[00:38:56] He can use things with basically like without articles, without proper grammar

[00:39:00] and make himself understandable.

[00:39:02] And Mariko even says like, you know, you're very understandable now,

[00:39:04] even if you're not, you know, a perfect speaker.

[00:39:06] Right.

[00:39:07] In this, he's like, he knows a few phrases, but he's really not had to learn a lot

[00:39:11] of Japanese in this series.

[00:39:13] And I wonder why they did that?

[00:39:14] Is it to make him feel more ostracized from the Japanese

[00:39:17] and maybe more reliant on Mariko?

[00:39:19] It tells the story, well, I guess, to go in that direction to, because if he suddenly,

[00:39:27] if he was so good at picking it up and he did have a real natural gift,

[00:39:34] we would then think that would recenter him in some different ways.

[00:39:39] And it would make him maybe a little bit less believable.

[00:39:42] Like, you know, we see him struggling and working through it, even though he's getting it

[00:39:46] and he's got a couple of phrases down.

[00:39:48] If he were much more fluid, I think it would be a less credible performance.

[00:39:54] It would be a less credible character in the show.

[00:39:57] Yeah, I think they would have had to extend some of the timelines.

[00:39:59] Yeah, exactly.

[00:40:01] Yeah, because the book does have longer timelines.

[00:40:03] Like, OK, he spent a few months over here doing this.

[00:40:04] That's not, you know.

[00:40:06] Which is crazy because they could have taken this as a three season,

[00:40:09] three 10 episode, three season.

[00:40:12] Aren't you glad they didn't?

[00:40:15] Yes.

[00:40:16] I'm glad they know.

[00:40:17] I'm glad this is a tight show.

[00:40:20] It has a beginning, middle and end.

[00:40:21] We're not doing a million seasons of A Walk in Dead here.

[00:40:25] I don't know.

[00:40:26] No, no, I don't want to fluff it up, but it's so good that I don't want it to end.

[00:40:30] But it's so good that I love the fact that they have compressed it into,

[00:40:33] you know, it's an incredible work of art.

[00:40:36] Yeah, right.

[00:40:36] You have to ask yourself, right, how much of the goodness

[00:40:38] is because they did a good compression of it?

[00:40:41] Exactly.

[00:40:42] And yet I am so enchanted with their talent and skill

[00:40:45] and the writing and the acting that I don't want it to end.

[00:40:48] So that's why I'm going to flip it.

[00:40:50] Right, right.

[00:40:53] So we've got this scene where he's going to Torinaga.

[00:40:56] He says, you know, I failed to get you the Christian Dymios

[00:41:01] and the Christian Regions.

[00:41:03] And I love Torinaga here.

[00:41:05] He's like, don't let him speak Japanese anymore.

[00:41:07] He's not trustworthy to speak Artang, which I don't know.

[00:41:11] It's kind of weird like you're giving Mariko now a chance to edit what he says,

[00:41:16] which Mariko did a lot of editing this episode.

[00:41:19] I got to say.

[00:41:20] I love this inversion or I don't know whatever they did with this where Mariko who is editing

[00:41:30] and not as reliable where Alvito is trying his best to be as accurate as possible,

[00:41:39] but yet he's not a trusted vassal.

[00:41:45] He's part of this foreign power that has its own objectives and financial motivations.

[00:41:53] So he comes from a suspect quarter where Mariko is supposed to be a trusted vassal,

[00:42:02] but she's playing fast and loose with translations where he's being perfect.

[00:42:05] I love the whole thing.

[00:42:07] And then what an insult.

[00:42:09] And Nate was our resident Japanese historian, was on the discord saying as an insult,

[00:42:19] not even a backhanded.

[00:42:20] It's an open fist, you know, open hand slap across the face that you are no longer

[00:42:28] worthy of speaking our language in front of me.

[00:42:33] And I know you speak perfect Japanese.

[00:42:37] Like that is a huge slapdown.

[00:42:39] I'm going to give you my tin foil hat theory though,

[00:42:42] which is that the actor didn't speak good enough Japanese to do an impassioned speech in it.

[00:42:47] And they were like, okay, let's figure out a reason for him to speak in English.

[00:42:53] That's another sin.

[00:42:53] You know, fake Portuguese because we need him to be able to do this impassioned speech

[00:42:58] about how he should ally with Ishiro and do this and that.

[00:43:03] Oh, sorry, ally with Ochi-ba.

[00:43:05] I just spoke.

[00:43:07] But yeah, he's trying to say go figure it out guys.

[00:43:10] You know, go have a little powwow.

[00:43:12] Why don't you go prepare tea for her?

[00:43:15] Big theater for in this is Torinaga's big stage here, sending him back, you know,

[00:43:22] absolutely what you've seen here.

[00:43:24] And it's interesting again, and I pointed this out at the top of the episode,

[00:43:28] when Hiromatsu is there and he's saying, well, you should you could form this

[00:43:32] allegiance to do this kind of stuff.

[00:43:34] So he's giving him his opinion.

[00:43:36] And in that same spot later in the episode, he's giving his opinion and it costs him his life.

[00:43:43] Right.

[00:43:44] And it's just a it's just a beautiful little

[00:43:46] couplet in there rhyming couplet there.

[00:43:49] Yep.

[00:43:50] Yep.

[00:43:51] And then I just wanted to quickly joke about his new lovely night neighbor.

[00:43:55] I love I mean this actor, I forgot his name, but

[00:43:59] he's doing an amazing job doing this subtle face drop of, oh, look who's that?

[00:44:04] The neighbors.

[00:44:05] Oh, OK.

[00:44:05] Hi.

[00:44:06] I think they're courtesans.

[00:44:06] What?

[00:44:09] Perfect Torinaga screw, right?

[00:44:11] Yeah.

[00:44:11] I'm going to put the church and the willow world next week.

[00:44:15] We'll get you a church.

[00:44:15] Don't worry about it.

[00:44:16] Primeland prime real estate.

[00:44:19] Primo real estate father.

[00:44:22] Mariko let's talk about her.

[00:44:24] We kind of talked about tea already.

[00:44:27] But she didn't want that she just wanted freedom from Boutara.

[00:44:30] Yeah.

[00:44:31] Yep.

[00:44:33] And it's gotta be

[00:44:39] she was and this was an arranged marriage.

[00:44:41] She didn't choose him.

[00:44:43] But was it who was the one who told her like your dad wanted you to marry him so that

[00:44:49] you would be free and you would be safe?

[00:44:51] Right.

[00:44:52] I was Torinaga, right?

[00:44:53] Wasn't it?

[00:44:54] Yeah, yeah, it was.

[00:44:54] It was.

[00:44:55] He wanted to get you away from away from there.

[00:44:58] And it's Hiramatsu Sun.

[00:44:59] So it's like they're trying to form different political alliances amongst each other.

[00:45:07] But then Boutara like where we've seen him be abusive.

[00:45:13] He's an amazing samurai fighter.

[00:45:17] He has incredible tea prowess in the tea ceremony.

[00:45:23] He has emotion.

[00:45:25] Right?

[00:45:25] He's the can samurai or samurai around to show that kind of emotion.

[00:45:31] Like he broke for a second there at the end of that scene and it was oh it was so human

[00:45:39] and that gut punch I can feel that gut punch of oh hey I've just opened up my heart to you

[00:45:45] and the other person's like no.

[00:45:49] I mean being a cool person.

[00:45:52] Yeah, I mean being a cruel person, being the villain of somebody else's story doesn't prevent you

[00:45:57] from having emotions yourself.

[00:46:00] And just like we look at and I'm not going to compare him to like Jamie Lannister,

[00:46:04] holy but because I don't think he has this redemption arc in front of him.

[00:46:10] The way that Game of Thrones was able to sort of make us root for Jamie Lannister at times

[00:46:14] and root for different characters or even just root for a character in the moment.

[00:46:19] Now I wasn't rooting for Buntoro here because I didn't want Mariko to die

[00:46:23] but you know you do feel badly for him and that's okay.

[00:46:27] That means we're good humans because we feel empathy even for bad people.

[00:46:31] Good point, good point.

[00:46:33] And yeah I was just going to say as well oh I forgot my point carry on.

[00:46:40] I'll pick it up.

[00:46:41] I was just going to say that I really love the pushback on the biggest critique of

[00:46:46] Clevelle. I brought it up before but this whole everybody's suicidal in Japan,

[00:46:50] this is the biggest part of samurai culture.

[00:46:54] I think it might have been Abby who brought it up.

[00:46:58] Somebody brought up in our discord or in the feedback that like this was really a

[00:47:02] post-World War II idea because of kamikaze fighters and you know the overall

[00:47:09] trajectory of that war but this was not a historical accuracy.

[00:47:15] Interesting.

[00:47:15] So I'm really glad they fixed that and that they did it in a way that felt like it was really a

[00:47:20] direct refutation of Clevelle's thesis.

[00:47:24] Right, right.

[00:47:26] Yeah and again just being able to take source material and elevate it to something new

[00:47:32] is great and I remember what I wanted to say about Buntoro which is that again

[00:47:39] even though we feel this empathy and this emotion and we can be fascinated at his

[00:47:44] skills in other areas, he's not emotionally intelligent whereas Monaco is.

[00:47:52] She's damn near as smart as Torinaga in terms of figuring out people and their motivations

[00:47:59] and understanding what the clockwork of human psychology and he just plainly can't see

[00:48:08] what it is and so it's not only like hey I don't want to spend a thousand years with you in death

[00:48:14] or life, I just don't want to spend time with you.

[00:48:20] Right.

[00:48:20] He can't see that.

[00:48:22] He doesn't see that at all.

[00:48:24] He doesn't understand that there's no there there with them.

[00:48:28] Right.

[00:48:30] And it was just such an amazing construction of a marriage at the end of its lifespan.

[00:48:38] I really wonder what he's going to do from here because I feel like he's the loose canna now

[00:48:42] even more than Blackthorn.

[00:48:43] Well yeah and I think Alicia and I talked about this on the

[00:48:48] quick podcast that we did the other day which is you know if Crimson's guy goes down is he

[00:48:54] going to be the guy who's at the tip of the spear just in this sort of nothing.

[00:48:59] Well you know he doesn't have his dad anymore, doesn't have his wife anymore.

[00:49:02] What does he have left to lose and we know that he is an accomplished swordsman.

[00:49:08] Right.

[00:49:10] Yeah you know and I really do love later, I brought it up in Tornaaga section but let's talk about it

[00:49:15] now quick is this whole idea of him being denied death because he denied Marko so long.

[00:49:22] And the Hiramatsu the way he said it to him he's like in my head canon was okay I'm your dad

[00:49:32] and I'm your lord but that you know what happens in your household and what happens

[00:49:36] between you and your wife that's your business.

[00:49:39] It's not my business to say anything but here I am at my death's door and fuck you part of my

[00:49:46] fridge for treating your wife that way all this long this is my rebuke to you as a you've been

[00:49:52] a bad husband.

[00:49:56] And he knows that right?

[00:49:57] I mean he knows that he raised a little man as far as he goes.

[00:50:01] Yeah he's a tremendous man in many ways as a warrior but in terms of a well-rounded person yeah

[00:50:10] he's missing some pieces there.

[00:50:14] So we need to address one more point about Mariko what's she ready for and what's on the paper?

[00:50:23] This is our peregrine falcon moment you know flying high in the sky.

[00:50:27] You're going to say peregrine took because I'm just so used to Lord of the Rings at this point.

[00:50:32] The at the beginning of the season what Tarnaga is talking to the sun doesn't he say that about how

[00:50:38] you know she flies high and uses the sun and so he's sending her you know with this

[00:50:44] with some sort of camouflage you know where nobody's going to see her target and at what

[00:50:51] velocity they're not going to she's coming so fast that they're not going to see the impact

[00:50:56] and by the time that they do it's going to be too late and he's going to be inside of Osaka

[00:51:01] and it's it's going to happen I'm so excited for it.

[00:51:05] Well speaking of things that are moving fast with a high velocity here Matsu's head would be one of them

[00:51:13] and we've got to talk about him.

[00:51:15] Right well that's bad that's being a bad second because you're supposed to leave it

[00:51:20] so that the head doesn't roll off well but it cuts far enough.

[00:51:24] Surtur is a little distracted he's got problems.

[00:51:28] His dad also just denied him death so I don't think he was happy with him either.

[00:51:34] I kind of just want to debate you and Alicia.

[00:51:39] Okay please.

[00:51:39] I think that Hiramatsu believed that Tarnaga was ready to surrender.

[00:51:44] I don't think he was in on the theater.

[00:51:46] I don't think he okay it's so it's so subtle and complex because when he when they walk out of

[00:51:57] the meeting with Alvido he says well the old man is going to fight like there's no way that

[00:52:01] he would send that you know Alvido back blah blah blah and then so when they're in that

[00:52:07] meeting and he's seeing those the three generals you know willing to commit seppuku because they don't

[00:52:17] want to like you as a lord you're dishonoring what we have served for you as your lord.

[00:52:24] So Hiramatsu puts himself in that position and I think he's anticipating Tarnaga

[00:52:32] and he's also deflecting all of the other so nobody else has to do it he's taking it on himself

[00:52:38] and I don't think I don't do you think that we thought it was preplanned?

[00:52:43] Yeah that's what I thought I thought you thought that Hiramatsu

[00:52:46] know sort of understood his role here.

[00:52:49] He did but it wasn't preplanned it was an emerged in the moment.

[00:52:54] Okay all right I buy that more than I do it was you know a scripted play.

[00:53:00] Okay Hiramatsu I'm gonna see this and then you say that and then you take out your knife

[00:53:03] and you stab yourself in the belly. Make sure you sharpen your swords.

[00:53:06] Yeah exactly no it wasn't that at all yeah he was reading the room Hiramatsu was reading the room

[00:53:11] and it was going like oh crap like we can't you know I know that Tarnaga has a plan he hasn't

[00:53:19] told me the plan but there's no way that his plan is going to work if these three generals

[00:53:23] and everybody else in the room starts you know pulling out their their swords so I'm gonna pull

[00:53:29] all that energy to me and I'm gonna do it on behalf of everybody else and and it's just kind of like

[00:53:39] I mean these two guys have known each other for so many years and it was the only play

[00:53:44] and and I think Torinaga saw I think it's interesting now that we're talking about it

[00:53:48] I think Hiramatsu saw it before Torinaga and he stepped in and then Torinaga saw it as well

[00:53:54] and so then they were like okay we're locked in and this is where we're going and there's no

[00:53:58] where out there's no there's no way off this track. Right interesting all right I buy that more I

[00:54:06] appreciate you selling that point for me. Yeah good I'm glad because it was an incredible scene

[00:54:12] incredible acting an incredible plot device it completely blew me away. So we're up to Blackthorn

[00:54:20] and Yabashige so Blackthorn has recently been freed from Torinaga's service and banished to the

[00:54:27] commoners area it feels like oh this Hatamoto you know normally would be in the in the castle

[00:54:33] huh yeah and that was a question that Alicia and I debated a little bit was is he still

[00:54:39] Hatamoto is he still a Hatimoto? I think so because he didn't break his oath or anything right

[00:54:47] he Torinaga just said I don't have any more need of you I mean look he broke his oath later. He gave

[00:54:52] him the raspberry in the middle of a high level diplomatic meeting you know yeah that's true and

[00:55:00] Grimm's in horse shit. So but I don't think that even if his Hatamoto status is in question

[00:55:09] he was still granted a like a mini fiefdom right he's still given a plot of land and

[00:55:16] right that kind of stuff and Fuji and I believe Moniko says that you know Fuji's back and she's

[00:55:22] still got to manage your affairs and stuff. I mean I could be wrong but my impression of this world is

[00:55:30] if you're not going to be a Hatamoto anymore your options are two

[00:55:34] you shave your head and become a monk or you commit seppuku. Those are literally the only

[00:55:41] two options. But it wasn't like Torinaga said you're no longer Hatamoto he just

[00:55:49] got mad at his lord and walked out and everybody was like okay well the barbarian is being a

[00:55:55] silly barbarian so yeah yeah I mean even Torinaga's brother was like huh and then he went back

[00:56:01] to negotiating he was like whatever barbarian. Saeki was funny you know I mean I was uneasy

[00:56:06] about that guy from the beginning but he did have a good humor about him. Yeah he was funny Saeki

[00:56:13] I've been avoiding saying his name I don't want to make people drink Saeki. Well that's all right

[00:56:18] I mean you know somebody's got to have a good time. That's right. So let's talk about the big

[00:56:25] I'm not at home here. So you know this whole he goes to see his friends and the minute he sees them

[00:56:31] he's like oh man it stinks and he looks down and he sees somebody and he's like yeah I don't

[00:56:37] I don't think I want to mess with this pilot and he's like oh just seeing somebody you don't want

[00:56:45] to see at Applebee's the night before Thanksgiving. And his shoulders drop a little bit and he's

[00:56:51] like shit I can't just walk away like I'm caught. It was really good body acting from Cosmo Jarvis.

[00:56:58] Yeah yeah it was and and like I said in the intro this is wildly different from the book. Yeah I think

[00:57:06] I heard in the book they spend a lot more time with this scene. There's like a chapter basically

[00:57:11] or at least a large portion of a chapter where he's just in there and he's like guys don't

[00:57:16] worry we're going to attack the black ship together and everything's going to be amazing

[00:57:21] and his ship's already in Edo in the book. Oh really? Yeah yeah yeah and well like he hasn't seen it

[00:57:28] it wasn't like sitting there for him to you know mope about like it isn't the show it was already

[00:57:33] in Edo and had been taken care of already and his crew had been working on it you know they

[00:57:40] basically the Japanese had been working on it with the guidance of the crew telling them what

[00:57:45] needed to be done. Okay so it had actually been like completely prepared already basically

[00:57:52] and so it's a much different situation they're like oh we're so happy to see you oh missed you buddy

[00:57:58] thought you were dead and he sees all of them right he goes in and but anyway the point is

[00:58:04] it's a much more warm welcome in the book. Right and I think that that was changed in the show

[00:58:11] primarily because they wanted to up the pressure on Blackthorn to feel like he had no home.

[00:58:18] Agreed. I think if he had had a warm welcome he wouldn't have been going to Yabashige the next day.

[00:58:24] And I think it's a better story for it. The original story you know is all about this

[00:58:33] foreigner in a strange land who's so clever and you know spitting in the face of fate and

[00:58:41] and making his way in the world where here it's like no this world is very different and I'm not

[00:58:51] as good as I am on my feet to actually confront the differences between our two cultures

[00:58:58] is a much graver and bigger thing to the point that he's actually kind of stuck here will he ever see

[00:59:04] his you know wife and children again will they ever see parts of home again and I think the way

[00:59:10] that they played it out this time the alienation that he feels and the trapped between two worlds

[00:59:15] but not trapping like he's like I'm not really Japanese and I don't want to go back and

[00:59:20] be stinky with these guys. He's going to be walking through England with a clothes pin on

[00:59:26] his nose. Right what did he say is like it smells like high gated low tide or I forget what his line was.

[00:59:31] Oh it's bad it's bad yeah I mean remember in the beginning he's like don't give me a bath I'm going

[00:59:37] to get yeah yeah what's what's that fake flux or scurvy or flux or flux and uh yeah that was

[00:59:44] I guess this was a real thing like people thought if you bathe too much you got sick from it

[00:59:49] right yeah yeah the humors and all these different ideas that we used to have about human health

[00:59:54] Right so the Japanese were ahead of their time on that one and he's gotten used to it he's like oh

[01:00:00] it's actually nice to not smell like shit all the time. Once he realizes the refinements and the

[01:00:09] comforts and the the luxury that this lifestyle affords him why would you go back ah it's a

[01:00:17] nice hot bath I feel relaxed you know I've got good food I don't my breath doesn't stink it really is a

[01:00:25] bonus. Yeah yeah well this is going to push him right into the arms of Yabashige of course

[01:00:33] but Yabashige you can see he considers it he's like no no I can't I can't do it I'm too deep in

[01:00:39] with Torinaga I can't go accept this offer now but I love Mariko's reaction because

[01:00:45] it almost felt like I was playing a video game and I got a prompt that says like

[01:00:49] Mariko didn't like that or your relationship with Mariko changed. That's funny. It's like

[01:00:56] Baldur's Gate right? Right right I thought it was more Omi shooting Yabashige a look like are

[01:01:03] you serious dude are you actually being enchanted by this disgusting barbarian

[01:01:11] it was it was pretty funny because he really did he was like oh yeah it's not a bad idea oh yeah

[01:01:15] this Blackthorne guy yeah I mean they are spiritually bonded you know the the moment

[01:01:21] that Yabashige pulled himself up you know we got pulled up from the cliffs and Blackthorne I

[01:01:29] forget what he said it was a pretty funny little situation though but he sits there and

[01:01:34] he's looking at him and and their feats I think at that point were intertwined even though

[01:01:38] they're ebbing and flowing away from each other at different points they are as I think Torinaga

[01:01:46] rightly points out they're both birds of the same feather yeah they're both short term survivalists

[01:01:55] right they're gonna eat what they they're gonna catch they're gonna kill what they can catch and

[01:01:59] they're gonna eat it they're not thinking of a larger picture they're not looking at the strategic

[01:02:04] you know he's like oh well we could just get in my ship and sail away it's like okay what then

[01:02:11] attack the Black ship okay what then like what does that mean you're gonna actually provoke a war

[01:02:16] you know even a greater war I mean if you start cutting off the Portuguese

[01:02:21] cash flow from here you're gonna piss them off and that's gonna yeah you know so well

[01:02:27] well that's something that I don't remember if this was in the book in the show now but

[01:02:31] but you know Torinaga so concerned with this pitch to take the Black ship because

[01:02:36] how are they gonna get their silks from China now you know this is a major trade disruption

[01:02:42] this is how they get like and they say that in the intro of the show of like how this trade

[01:02:46] works which is that China wouldn't trade with Japan so the Portuguese or the intermediaries and

[01:02:51] that's how they get all their you know goods from China that they really need to survive

[01:02:55] and charging them on both ends the charging right transaction Portuguese are being awful about it yeah

[01:03:01] yeah but my point is you know Torinaga understands that like sure we might get a better deal with

[01:03:08] the English and Dutch not guaranteed but it's gonna take a decade to figure out the trade logistics

[01:03:16] yeah right and negotiate all the treaties and before the cash actually starts flowing

[01:03:21] you've got to have at least one or two couple of ships going through right yeah it's disrupting

[01:03:26] a supply chain oh right we have a little experience when that happens the Suez Canal

[01:03:33] wasn't that I think that anniversary was just like a few weeks ago I think I talked about the

[01:03:39] Suez Canal on the Halo podcast actually okay oh nice this is now a recurring Lorehounds topic

[01:03:47] we need to mark that in our in our annual calendar

[01:03:52] for sure anniversary but yeah the point is they can't they can't just go on and attack

[01:03:58] the black ship no stupid idea no but I was gonna ask you a question go ahead um am I ready yeah well

[01:04:06] yeah I mean who knows like where where for you does cracking your head on a rock rate is it

[01:04:14] higher or lower than being eaten by dogs or being boiled alive because you know Yabushige

[01:04:20] has got to know he's keeping his book well hold on now hold on now is it on like the quality of the

[01:04:26] death right you're saying like the poetic I would enjoy dying is that we need a Yabushige scale

[01:04:31] for uh no no more scales um you know I I say if I have to pick one of the three I'd probably

[01:04:39] pick dying like Nagar Kato like yeah it's painful but it's not as painful as being boiled alive or

[01:04:45] eaten by dogs alive yeah I don't yeah I think that this would be the preferable way thanks very much

[01:04:51] I just think that the fact that he's got a death book that he's ranking these different ways and

[01:04:56] he's thinking right down he's so you know Samuraiers and lords are supposed to

[01:05:04] be good with poetry and tea ceremonies and uh what no you know the the theater and all

[01:05:10] of these different things beyond just you know swordsmanship and battle and Yabushige is studying

[01:05:18] death and examining the poetry of death in a very visceral and direct way and I I'm here for it I

[01:05:27] love this guy he's an absolute king he's a funny guy he's a funny guy uh an awful guy but a funny guy

[01:05:37] so uh Yabushige uh is eventually sent to deliver the cannons as Torinaga and Hiramatsu and

[01:05:45] everybody keeps saying the whole episode but then Black Thorn decides to come and is invited by

[01:05:51] Torinaga by rather Yabushige of course Mariko is sent along with a mysterious note what's going on

[01:06:00] yeah well this is where we're looking at her peregrine falcon this is the beginning of her

[01:06:05] attack right this is the beginning of her mission yep and it has to I don't know what the actual

[01:06:15] chart it is like where's this the point of impact but it's certainly going to destabilize the regions

[01:06:26] and is she being aimed at uh Ochiba? Ochiba? Ochiba okay now I've now I'm in my head about it

[01:06:34] Lady Ochiba oh god now I've done it I've really done myself I think that's the right way I think

[01:06:38] okay is it okay I'm all mixed up everybody drink uh I think he she's aimed at her ultimately like

[01:06:47] that's the that's the chink in the armor that he can get through he's got an arrow with oh didn't

[01:06:55] they get smog that way with the uh wasn't there a chink in the arrow in the armor and yeah

[01:07:02] one arrow got the chink in there yeah so I think this is Mariko I think this is she's this arrow

[01:07:08] aimed at at the armor here right the the next arrow is Mariko so but who's hold on now

[01:07:15] you're saying that Mariko is going to put the hole in the armor or that who's who where's the

[01:07:21] hole now if not yeah we I don't think we see it I don't think it's been given to us

[01:07:26] I think we've got all of the setup for it but I don't think that we have the I don't think we

[01:07:32] know exactly where it is she's the arrow um and and aimed at at whatever weakness that Torinaga

[01:07:40] can see that we can't see right right well and that's gonna be a fun boat ride it is gonna be

[01:07:50] she gay and black thorn and when they get to Osaka I think it's gonna be a

[01:07:55] kill tackler I had my halo soundboard up still what was that that's that's the halo

[01:08:01] announcer I just we recorded halo oh no last podcast on here and I still had my my uh my

[01:08:08] thing go out you know game over okay we got it we got the whole thing we got the whole

[01:08:12] thing don't worry about it pretty funny I one thing I wanted to address with about black thorn

[01:08:20] and yabushige was that when black thorn is making his initial appeal yabushige is open to it he's

[01:08:28] thinking about it he's like oh this is not a bad idea and you know obviously that gets turned away

[01:08:33] but then then later they come together the thing is I think Mariko's seeing this I don't see that

[01:08:42] yabushige is this but I certainly think Torinaga sees this that black thorn his crew black thorns

[01:08:48] crew certainly sees this that he is a user he's going to use the relationships that are in his life

[01:08:57] for his whatever his short-term goals are a sort of you know one thing after an x oh we'll

[01:09:04] get through the channel and oh we'll get to the japan's and then oh we'll attack the black ship

[01:09:08] you know he's clawing his way sort of one wrong at a time up whatever imaginary ladder he has

[01:09:14] but if you're useful to him he will use you and then when you're not useful to him anymore

[01:09:20] yeah he's he's moving on and I don't know about that I don't think that black thorn discards people

[01:09:27] as quickly as you're suggesting okay I think he I might be biased because of the book where he is

[01:09:35] often thinking about well how do I get my men home right because I I pledge to take the ships and the

[01:09:40] men home and that's interesting because that's take back anything that I can because in this he's

[01:09:47] always trying to get his crew back because his crew are means to the ends of the ship

[01:09:52] and then the ship is his means to attack the portuguese and the catholics right right you

[01:09:59] know that that goal where yeah we don't get it much of much more of his interior dialogue in terms

[01:10:04] of why is he really care about his crew I think he does but like I said I might be biased because

[01:10:11] I get his internal monologue in the book right and I think in the book it's it sounds like it's more

[01:10:15] clear yeah yeah and and I I do think that even in the show he doesn't discard people like you

[01:10:22] know if he were the way you're describing I think he would very be very callous towards fujih

[01:10:28] things like that true and I think he is kind where he needs you know he's kind to that's

[01:10:33] a good point early unless unless they wrong him he's kind to people that's a good counter the fujih

[01:10:38] situation is a good counterpoint because he does show her an honest true moment of tendership

[01:10:45] and he does feel bad about the gardener you know after the earthquake he sort of touches her hand

[01:10:52] while she's getting you know her wounds tend to her and then he goes and he moves the rocks so

[01:10:58] okay so maybe my my argument my theory that he's toxic isn't maybe he's not well again he's not no

[01:11:05] no character in the show is one dimensional they're all multi-dimensional he has selfish aspects I think

[01:11:10] agreed agreed you know and and as do we all right we all have moments where we can be a little selfish

[01:11:15] yeah so Torinaga the man of the hour who I think this show honestly has become

[01:11:23] a show about him okay a show about him and a show about marco as the main characters I think

[01:11:29] Blackthorn honestly is closer in character scope to Yabashige and Omi maybe not Omi Omi's

[01:11:38] a little smaller but you know what I mean this is this is not the Blackthorn show and I'm glad

[01:11:43] because I think it's more interesting this way I know we've already basically debated the illness

[01:11:49] a little bit but I personally think he was not faking it because of his morning coughing

[01:11:55] but I do think it helped him with his situation he and perhaps that's part of his plan right because

[01:12:02] he we know that he's really good at improvising and using his situation to his advantage so if

[01:12:06] he wakes up with a cold he's like all right cool when we when we go to council I'm going to

[01:12:11] make sure that it looks like I'm sick that I'm being helped in and the if you're in that

[01:12:20] boxed-in situation and your spirit is down and it's so wet in on zero it all makes sense that

[01:12:29] it plays into the defeated man picture oh you know they've strategically outmaneuvered him

[01:12:36] and oh look he's sick and he's weak now and he he probably couldn't even defend himself

[01:12:40] with his swords if you wanted to right that's it it's it's like uh he's limping to attract the

[01:12:48] prey to come get him when he's not it's a great ruse it's a great ruse yeah I agree lies deception

[01:12:57] as Saw Gerrera might say uh the manipulation of Blackthorn and Yabashige speaking of deception

[01:13:06] brilliantly done right just driving them into the arms of each other

[01:13:09] wait can you do Saw Gerrera in John Blackthorn's voicing lies deception

[01:13:16] or anyway back to the point well I I think that it's really brilliant the way they were

[01:13:21] in the show because early on you have the small deception the the small manipulations

[01:13:28] from Torinaga to Yabashige you have Torinaga sending Hiramatsu to basically pressure Yabashige

[01:13:35] into gifting him right the the Erasmus and Blackthorn's crew but you also have the situation where Yabashige

[01:13:46] quote-unquote takes it upon himself to rescue Blackthorn you have you know Torinaga kind of

[01:13:55] boxing him in with the offer of Ishido and he's been he's done a really good job of subtly

[01:14:01] manipulating Yabashige all season to where I believe Torinaga feels confident that he can predict

[01:14:08] Yabashige yeah yeah yeah I agree absolutely uh he's and he's Yabashige is always well

[01:14:18] speaking of using people he's never outlived his usefulness he's he's always been a very

[01:14:25] potent ally to have and and it was actually probably worked to his strategic advantage to

[01:14:30] have a little dis you know a little communication channel between Ishido and him

[01:14:35] where he could yep he could make little moves or drop little comments knowing that Yabashige would

[01:14:39] send that back and then that would you know confuse or confound Ishido in the Regents and

[01:14:44] vice versa so it's not only keeping Yabashige in check but actually using him as a tool on

[01:14:54] the chess board you know and being able to induce different results and different reactions from

[01:15:02] from them so yeah it's it's been from the moment when he called him up to the battlement and he's

[01:15:10] like oh watch the sunset with me you know he you know Yabashige knew he was his number was there

[01:15:16] he was like oh okay well you're gonna kill me and and I like the fact that neither Torinaga

[01:15:22] nor him they play this little game but when they really are confronting it there's no pretense about

[01:15:30] it right right there's there's no bullshit and you know smoking mirrors stuff it's like oh yeah

[01:15:36] you're gonna you're gonna kill me it's like no you're useful to me still so hang out watch the

[01:15:41] sunset for me and then you know we'll go from here I like the practicality of their nature

[01:15:46] of the nature of their relationship right so Yabashige I think Torinaga can be pretty confident

[01:15:54] that he's gonna do what Torinaga expects him to do but do you think that Torinaga has become

[01:16:02] overconfident about the Anjin because I think that Blackthorn might be too wild card

[01:16:09] for Torinaga to predict in the way that he predicts Yabashige's movements

[01:16:15] is that not exactly what he wants though but a why but that doesn't make sense right because

[01:16:21] Wildcard could do anything like sure like he knows that Yabashige is going to accept the offer

[01:16:28] and follow the instructions if he thinks that there's power involved right I don't think he fully

[01:16:34] I don't think he fully understands Blackthorn's motivations because I don't think Blackthorn

[01:16:38] understands Blackthorn's motivations like Blackthorn is lost right now he's completely lost he doesn't

[01:16:43] even know what he wants you know does he even in the end is he even gonna care about his fight

[01:16:49] with the the Portuguese or does he just want to live a happy life with Rodriguez

[01:16:56] can you imagine those two on the same ship together oh man

[01:17:00] yeah I think your point is well taken that Blackthorn doesn't know what Blackthorn wants

[01:17:05] he doesn't have Mariko he doesn't have the Black ship he doesn't have his own ship

[01:17:09] he doesn't have his crew like we talked about he's got none of this stuff but I think

[01:17:17] if Torinaga is as good as a tactician and you know strategist and tactician right two

[01:17:22] different skills he's got to be able to adjust in the moment while he's got his grand schemes

[01:17:29] running plans within plans as the Benny Jester might say mixing lots of different IPs here and

[01:17:37] he's got to be able to he's very good at responding tactically to new situations

[01:17:44] and Blackthorn really is a wild card and and he's he's been a wild card from the beginning

[01:17:49] and it's constantly provided leverage in area it's opened up areas where there weren't any

[01:17:56] there weren't going to be any openings and Torinaga is strategic you know his clarity of vision

[01:18:04] and and his ability to respond is so good that he can take advantage of these things so even if

[01:18:10] Blackthorn is a chaos agent he's a chaos monkey you know running around Torinaga is nimble enough

[01:18:17] on his feet that he can take advantage of most all of if not most of these uh these are opportunities

[01:18:24] that that Blackthorn creates so I like that I like that let's uh let's talk about Torinaga's

[01:18:32] treatment of Mariko now. Are you ready for your mission? That was so good. They could have ended

[01:18:41] the season on that like if we were going for a multi-season show yeah yeah that could have been

[01:18:47] the final shot right I was waiting for that to be the final shot of the episode when it

[01:18:51] happened and then there were still I saw the and then there were commercial and then I looked at

[01:18:55] the timeline and I was like wait there's still like a whole bunch of time left yeah see I couldn't

[01:18:59] figure out if it was going to be like a Disney credit where it's like 13 minutes of

[01:19:05] right now I'm used to Disney stupid credits where you know the credits that roll on forever

[01:19:11] the bad batch credits I know I know all of Tor's credits are absolutely insane the Marvel

[01:19:17] ones are pretty bad too yeah and I want everybody to get credit but how was it possible that this

[01:19:23] many people worked on the show? It's ridiculous talk about a dark season I'd batch this here boy

[01:19:30] I'm not caught up yet I did I've got through about five or six episodes got it so I will I

[01:19:35] will catch up before the end of the season anyway back to Mariko. Yep yep yeah this is

[01:19:43] he's been waiting for her to have the clarity of vision that he wants her to have and I think

[01:19:53] one of the well I don't want I want to save it maybe for my favorite scene there's one of my

[01:19:58] favorite scenes is is uh I'll just I'll just talk about it now is when she has her light bulb

[01:20:05] moment when she's talking to Torinaga and she's so affected by seeing suddenly all of the plans that

[01:20:15] have been you know that she's been blind to she's so impacted by it she just sinks down to her knees

[01:20:24] she's like dude oh my god like I didn't realize and now I'm seeing it all and I can see how you've

[01:20:31] been manipulating and moving and I just love the fact that Anna Sawai knew in that moment that it was

[01:20:38] such a a momentous moment that the only thing a human could do is to you know sort of not there's

[01:20:46] no chairs so she goes down on her on our knees obviously she said Ned Stark's head just rolled

[01:20:52] exactly it was uh it was so good it was so good and and this idea but he's you know

[01:21:01] he's manipulating her right he's manipulating everybody for hopefully justifiable ends

[01:21:08] but it's still manipulation and gaslighting so it's it's amazing it's a it's a delicious stew of

[01:21:17] of of plans within plans he's just lost his best friends he just lost his son and now he's sending

[01:21:25] Madako who is like he's known since she was a little girl into the you know one of the most

[01:21:31] dangerous places on earth in that moment yeah I I really wonder if this plan's gonna work I hope

[01:21:38] it does I really do I hope that they have an amazing time and everyone lives happily ever

[01:21:44] after but I don't know how the story ends so what's he doing with the church and the courtesans

[01:21:53] is this just trying to keep them in check by keep putting them next to each other

[01:21:58] or is this just having a little fun I think he's having a little fun I think he's having a

[01:22:02] little fun he just wants to be able to walk down the street and watch the scowls back and forth

[01:22:08] well you know lots of souls to save you know going in and out of the willow world there so

[01:22:13] you know I think they're sure coming out they're synergistic right they're synergistic

[01:22:17] you know the play the book of Mormon yes but I've never seen it but I know I know about it a lot

[01:22:22] about it well you don't have to see it for this joke I went to see it and in the program it's great

[01:22:29] but in the program there's an ad from the Mormon church that says you've seen the book of Mormon

[01:22:35] now learn what we're really about that's awesome well played this is what this is what Torinaga

[01:22:41] Mark's placement is going to do with the church and the courtesans yeah yeah I mean I think they you

[01:22:47] know you're you're in need of escape or solace you know your soul or your your physical being

[01:22:57] you know that you just go to this part of town and and they got you whether or you needed

[01:23:01] in a in a metaphysical sense or in a physiological sense you're covered yep yep

[01:23:07] you'll be on your knees either way all right oh god he's back let's move on to let's move on to

[01:23:15] Nagakato and Hiramatsu being thanked for time because there was a double kill and that really

[01:23:24] bought Torinaga time to plan and scheme and hire Marko to right cause problems right see I don't

[01:23:32] think he could have sent Madako in had they left straight from Anjiro so he's every time the situation

[01:23:41] changes every time the tactical situation changes he's recalibrating and setting up new plans and

[01:23:47] looking for new opportunities and so being able to have push Blackthorn out you're like KwaZai

[01:23:55] Hatsumoto did I just say that and your yeah Bushige is disgusted and okay so that works okay

[01:24:05] so now oh Marko right she's on board like he's he's constantly scheming and moving his his pieces

[01:24:13] on the chessboard around in response absolutely I think that this death giving him time is

[01:24:22] he's gonna use every advantage I you know he says that I won't waste it right I think he

[01:24:27] he would have figured out something without Nagakato's death absolutely legitimately did help him and

[01:24:33] he never would have ordered it or made it happen but he is going to be like you know what it happened

[01:24:39] and we're going to use whatever we can get from it yeah 100%

[01:24:43] well let's take a quick break when we get back we're going to talk about our favorite

[01:24:51] moments and then we got a lot of feedback

[01:24:54] and we're back David let's talk about our favorite moments in the show can you start me off

[01:25:14] yeah I got the one already which was the light bulb moment and I guess I I don't know all of these

[01:25:23] my other one was Yabushige's death book okay I think that one and then my last one

[01:25:33] was Mariko's comment to Blackthorn did you want me to translate that or was that for me

[01:25:38] yeah that was really good it was so blunt and straightforward and it really caught me surprised

[01:25:45] I was like huh what that was yeah you know she's especially you know I mean I know that they

[01:25:51] kind of you know warmed back up after this but this thing earlier on where she goes from now on

[01:25:57] the only words we'll share will be from others lips yeah and now she's just like do you want me to

[01:26:02] translate that for you did I stutter what about you what do you got yeah so I basically hinted at

[01:26:11] these old line but the tea ceremony was a big one for me I thought it was really beautiful

[01:26:15] really well done it made me feel a little otherworldly and I wasn't even having to

[01:26:19] so now I have to go prepare tea for my wife nice Blackthorn's Cold Welcome was another one for me

[01:26:27] I really enjoyed the twist on what they did in the book I think it's a I think it's honestly

[01:26:33] it makes more sense when he's been living with I guess we don't know the exact time but he's

[01:26:37] been living as a Hata Moto at least partially as you said a quasi-Moto like he's the

[01:26:43] back of Notre Dame and he he's not going to feel at home anymore with these people right he's

[01:26:49] going to be like wow did I used to live like this and that's not going to be good so now he's in a

[01:26:54] weird awkward spot right right but I also really loved Elvido's neighbors and the face drop was

[01:27:00] so subtle and so good I really like this actor who's playing Father Elvido he's very funny

[01:27:05] that's it's the acting has been really superb all around not a bad performance amongst them

[01:27:11] totally agree totally agree so let's get into listener feedback if you have feedback for us

[01:27:19] you can of course write into Shogun at thelawhounds.com you can go to thelawhounds.com and access our

[01:27:26] contact page where you can leave us a voicemail or write a contact form entry or you can tag

[01:27:31] us on the discord and say hey David John I just really want to have this read out loud but

[01:27:37] I'm not feeling go to my email inbox today that's fine just let us know okay so let's start off with a

[01:27:44] voicemail from Abby who sent it via the contact page hello everyone this is Abby from Edo with my last

[01:27:53] input on pronunciations I need to stress that I appreciate you making an effort to get them

[01:28:00] right when more often than not American podcasters are dodgedly insisting on wrongly

[01:28:05] anglicizing everything which if it's the case of 40 year to tongue coordination I could understand

[01:28:12] but then they add the twist of making fun of foreigners sounding foreign and that is just

[01:28:17] a total lack of self-awareness right anyhow without much ado as I think we don't really have new

[01:28:25] characters popping in at this point a rehash brother of Toranaga is named Sayeki

[01:28:35] that very same Toranaga is played by actor and executive producer Sanada Hiroyuki

[01:28:45] Mariko is still Mariko no matter how the showrunner pronounces her name really it

[01:28:52] shouldn't be that hard Mariko some names you guys already get them right at the first try

[01:29:00] and others you struggled with and now you get them correctly so I would just list them up

[01:29:19] and well all the origin plants who who cares what about them anyway and now to my episode eight

[01:29:25] comments as the official podcast already delved into the tea ceremony I was just at as a personal

[01:29:32] observation that I find the whole experience very stressful when every detail is very important

[01:29:39] and every gesture carefully choreographed what if you miss something or get something wrong anyhow

[01:29:45] if anyone is interested in how the tea itself tastes it is very bitter but any type of tea green

[01:29:52] should be tried as is westerners tend to add sugar to everything and that is just a sin against tea

[01:29:58] I noticed that Buntaro is getting a lot of pity from the viewers and sure as we see him on this show

[01:30:08] well poor guy I think in an effort to make him likeable the show kind of glossed over

[01:30:15] the fact that he was physically no emotionally abusive towards Mariko you notice how he says

[01:30:22] that they were happy ones and Mariko remembers no such time well good for her to set the record

[01:30:28] straight which I might admit Hiromatsu also did with his last words toward him his last words

[01:30:34] and his added device on that scene with Toranaga at first watch I was just as shocked as the

[01:30:41] rest of them but on rewatch you can notice a whole silent conversation going on between those two

[01:30:48] and as Kiku said you just simply need to look harder what a performance my

[01:30:59] continues to shine as Yabushige he is truly a chaos agent and brings so much levity I personally

[01:31:06] find him a lot more funny than John Black Dorn occasionally dropping some made up word that's

[01:31:13] supposed to be funny I don't know last but not least I have to thank you for not bringing any

[01:31:20] weird comparisons to your breakdowns and keeping them lower bound I just love it also thanks

[01:31:28] for being measured and mature in your enthusiasm versus some pots that are how can I say charitably

[01:31:36] bubbly okay looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the whole episode

[01:31:41] Arigato gozaimasu thank you for the time Abby out did we just get called not bubbly

[01:31:50] we I think we've been gushing about this show the whole time but yeah I think I've had like

[01:31:54] one minor criticism the entire time but uh I don't know maybe maybe we talk about it in terms

[01:32:00] of more like facts and grounded which I I would appreciate if that's what you meant Abby

[01:32:05] but thank you for the the pronunciation guys Abby I know we poke fun but it's but it's very

[01:32:11] helpful genuinely to to get some direct advice on it and I think she makes a good point about being

[01:32:17] self-aware that we're trying we stumble we joke and we laugh a little bit but it's not

[01:32:25] out of it's out of a sense of of trying to pronounce it correctly you know the names correctly

[01:32:34] where yeah I've heard a couple of other podcasts where I was like oh wow that really hurts and they

[01:32:39] don't even care and they just move on and and uh yeah so I appreciate the fact that you

[01:32:46] observe us trying and we absolutely do appreciate you coaching us it's it's a lot more fun

[01:32:52] when we get to interact with the listeners in this way and and I'm just so appreciative

[01:32:55] you sending in your voicemails absolutely and and I want to touch on your other comments Abby

[01:33:00] I think it's very interesting to hear you say the the t-share everybody stressful that's funny

[01:33:04] to me and because it's supposed to distract you from the stresses of life right right and for

[01:33:09] you it's just completely insufferable I'm so sorry to hear that uh I do want to try the tea

[01:33:15] I I gotta try this I do love a good green tea without sugar even I'll have a green tea

[01:33:20] without sugar so so uh give me your recommendations for things that I can get in the U.S. maybe well

[01:33:25] that was straight matcha powder wasn't it that he was mixing oh it was not diluted much at all

[01:33:30] yeah yeah I mean I I like matcha powder for sure it's good stuff yeah I don't know if I've ever

[01:33:37] had that kind of powdered tea in that way you know tea ceremony or not um so that'd be interesting

[01:33:45] interesting to that it's it's not about oh that's so delicious and it's it's hitting my taste buds

[01:33:52] just in the right way but it's actually trying to set off uh an emotional reaction in such a way

[01:33:59] that it's altering your your perspective on the moment and and putting you into a different mental

[01:34:05] headspace and to think about things in a different way so that's uh where most of the time you

[01:34:10] know we're drinking tea or coffee to um to to seek some sort of ritual some sort of ritual enjoyment

[01:34:19] you know I live near a really good Asian food market and now I want to go and see if they have

[01:34:25] legit matcha there this weekend we'll see uh but on a more you know substantive note

[01:34:31] this pity for Buntaro thing do you feel pity for Buntaro David? I don't feel pity for Buntaro

[01:34:39] I feel that we easily uh judged him as being a clawed and a thug and uh you know an abuser which

[01:34:52] all of those things are true but he's also they're showing us that he's a human being

[01:34:58] and I think you mentioned it earlier in the podcast you know that he has an emotional reaction

[01:35:04] an authentic emotional reaction to being rejected by somebody he he thought he was in love I think

[01:35:11] he's in the idea he's in love with the idea of being in love I don't think he's actually in love

[01:35:15] with Mariko um and that's that's just very human and so I don't I don't pity him but I can see him

[01:35:24] as a person who's also deserving of grace and redemption right you know if you do the work

[01:35:30] and you make things correct and you come correct you know then there's there's a way out of the

[01:35:37] prison the cage that you've made for yourself and uh and I think that they're showing us that

[01:35:44] he's not just a brute his emotional reaction to seconding his father a horrible situation

[01:35:50] for him to be in and he's got he's got the many aspects of every person right every person has

[01:35:57] good and bad parts of themselves and emotional and and more severed from emotion parts of yeah

[01:36:04] yep and I and that's what I really appreciate about the show is is uh is where we're seeing human

[01:36:12] beings being human right so well thank you abby always a pleasure to hear from you I hope

[01:36:21] you call in or right in next week yeah definitely would love some season well we've got a couple more

[01:36:26] episodes and then a season wrap up so keep it coming lore master in dunedine and discord mod

[01:36:34] brian 8063 hi everyone uh sorry I need to correct myself grammar it's dunedan when it's singular

[01:36:43] haha hi everyone I'm making a couple of observations about episode eight the first you probably covered

[01:36:50] in depth already on the podcast but it all it also struck me this theme of loyalty we see sides of

[01:36:57] it from different characters marco and hero matzoo loyalty never ends and you must do what you

[01:37:04] must blackthorn loyalty is fine what do you do if loyalty turns senseless and it is suicide

[01:37:13] also blackthorn he's loyal to his crew he lets it go and he seems willing to let loyalty go

[01:37:20] he also sees loyalty to marco and this might be something he won't give up I haven't

[01:37:25] finished the book or remember the end of the 1980 mini series oh me he asks if loyalty can be

[01:37:32] a disservice a harm really this was great as we see the struggle of loyalty and how long it takes

[01:37:40] to hold on to it another aspect that caught my attention here on loyalty because we didn't

[01:37:45] really talk about it at the top we were constrained on time and then we've become

[01:37:50] unconstrained from time so we can we can spend a little bit more time considering this particular

[01:37:57] theme about loyalty and I don't I'm trying to think of any other show that we've covered or any

[01:38:05] shows that I've watched that have actually ever addressed and explored the idea of loyalty and I

[01:38:11] I find it really interesting I always felt that loyalty was a pretty simplistic and flat

[01:38:20] ideal like you're loyal or you're not and this idea that if you're trapped inside of

[01:38:27] not well trapped is a is I'm already leading the I'm already setting conditions on the on the

[01:38:32] response here but if you're in a situation where there is a demand there is a relationship

[01:38:38] of loyalty to a very high degree that you put your life on the line

[01:38:42] and then you're watching that person you're loyal to make what is in your opinion are

[01:38:50] bad decisions and you continue to enable it I think that's what oh me is really struggling

[01:38:57] with here is that can that be a harm or a disservice and I think it's a fascinating

[01:39:03] question I've never thought of loyalty in this way and the way that it's unfolding by

[01:39:08] it's unfolding by the characters just being themselves in the story is is really intriguing

[01:39:17] and I can't wait to see a little bit more of you know because we all are waiting for the moment of

[01:39:23] Torinaga you know throws the theater throws his crutches to the side and you know and he's

[01:39:30] Gene Wilder in the Willy Wonka movie it's big a front flip yeah he stands up straight it says

[01:39:36] attack and everybody's like oh he was it was a ruse all along attack you know that he's really

[01:39:42] testing their loyalty by not telling them the truth and it's it's and then what do you do when you've

[01:39:51] been that loyal person is like yo dude you lied to me you weren't straight with me and

[01:39:57] you tested my faith in in this relationship and how do I feel about that now and and what do I

[01:40:04] do then in the days and the weeks coming for you know after that yeah it's it's tough it's tough

[01:40:11] I mean what do you do if you're a parent and your adult child joins a cult right do you

[01:40:18] try to get them out of it or do you let them live their life

[01:40:22] right like what's what's the right thing what's the loyal thing what's the trust thing thing

[01:40:27] that's an interesting question as a parent what's my you know what's my loyalty obligation to my child

[01:40:34] not only to my child but to society and to my extended family there'd be a lot of people upset

[01:40:40] if I weren't loyal to my child in in some certain ways but if they're an adult and they make a

[01:40:46] choice yeah that's I don't know it's a really I hope I never have to face that question

[01:40:50] I heard a joke once that said will you go to jail for kidnapping a person out of a cult

[01:40:57] and the person said not if you do it well of course not if you do it well not if it works

[01:41:03] that's right all right uh another aspect that caught my attention was the portrayal of christianity

[01:41:11] I expected it to play a more prominent role in the show but the showrunners focus on loyalty

[01:41:16] and power dynamics it's not a regret but unexpected after the first episode or two

[01:41:23] yeah I I agree with that I think there was definitely a shift away from christianity and the difference

[01:41:27] between Protestantism and Catholicism after a while and the beginning of the show was setting up

[01:41:32] that I thought we were going to get more into that agree political mix and we've just veered

[01:41:38] out away from it and we've barely seen anything with the church in these last few episodes

[01:41:42] it on it almost felt odd to see father alvido right feels like he's out of place in the story now

[01:41:47] absolutely sticking to loyalty I'm gonna add another one here the portuguese priest loyalty

[01:41:52] to their church there you go thanks for the great coverage and I'm sending to my and I'm

[01:41:58] sending my best to john and his family thanks brian brian 863 really appreciate that brian and

[01:42:04] appreciate you right now you want to read loremaster peter oh sure I can do that

[01:42:11] says hi david and alisha oh wait you're back john oh hello hello actually you know a little little

[01:42:20] on air programming conversation I was thinking you know with this little short form that alisha

[01:42:27] and I did the other day I have to see if she's available to this but maybe maybe she and I do a

[01:42:31] little quick reaction and then we do you and I do the bigger one later on because we can't make

[01:42:36] sure yeah and then and then when uh you know when when she's not available I can go hi i'm

[01:42:41] alisha I know you howie funny okay uh just some meandering thoughts on episode eight and the

[01:42:51] overall arc feel free to discuss or not if you don't already have one I would like to propose a

[01:42:56] new rating scale that's my man peter oh boy the better call sol scale oh this is getting better

[01:43:03] and better I haven't actually read it I just cut and pasted his email into here I didn't actually

[01:43:07] read it so this is uh this is very cool I love the season finale of better call sol thought it was

[01:43:12] so good it would be a measure of the sneakiness and the ultimate effectiveness of a plan I'm

[01:43:19] curious to see how toranaga's gambit will fall into place during episode seven I was convinced that

[01:43:23] he was engineering everything and furthermore that john blackthorn was the only one who was picking up on

[01:43:29] it hence his public outburst at torga toranaga's council I thought that that was a ruse so that

[01:43:36] he could get back to a ship and wreak havoc on toranaga's enemies but I'm glad I did not wager

[01:43:42] any internet points on that hmm the better call sol sneakiness scale that's interesting I think

[01:43:50] we'll have to mull that over hmm what do you think I'm trying to think of other sneakiness like the

[01:43:56] little finger involved in this like that kind of stuff I gotta think about it I gotta think about

[01:44:01] it okay uh peter continues after episode eight we're still in the dark as to toranaga's plan

[01:44:08] as it relates to john blackthorn it does seem like toranaga never had any intentions of

[01:44:13] surrendering based on his general's observations of the priest and the and then obviously at the end

[01:44:20] where he states his intentions for the audience but his ruse is coming at an incredibly high cost

[01:44:26] it would seem that marco is tasked with advancing the next phase of the plot I'm very excited to

[01:44:32] see what that looks like I liken this when I was talking about alicia to when you're playing

[01:44:38] chess when one is playing chess and one sacrifices a high value piece a rook or a castle or you know

[01:44:45] something like that where or even a queen um where it does cost you uh but you're trying to win the

[01:44:53] game at a strategic level right even though tactically it really is terrible and the personal

[01:44:59] cost I loved um sonata's portrayal of toranaga in that moment where he actually is genuinely upset

[01:45:10] that he had to what witness the death of his best and oldest friend I agree I agree he uh he

[01:45:19] he felt a lot there yeah it really showed anyway peter continues I'm curious about hiromatsu

[01:45:25] and buntoro I am trying to reconcile their place of honor in toranaga's retinue with marco's negative

[01:45:32] view of having to marry buntoro from the status point of view what am I missing do you have any

[01:45:39] point of view on this I don't know at this point I think I feel like there's a history bit

[01:45:45] that we're missing you know I feel like we don't know about toranaga not having as high of a

[01:45:52] stature at that point maybe it's because hiromatsu is uh the general you know the lead advisor to

[01:45:59] toranaga not toranaga himself like maybe they thought that marco would be better suited to like the son

[01:46:05] of a region yeah yeah I don't know I think I don't think we have an I think you're right I don't

[01:46:13] think we have enough information don't think I mean it because well if we think about a little

[01:46:21] bit more marco's father was I think a higher status ranked than toranaga I think he was above him and so

[01:46:30] it anyway solidifies their their relationships with hiromatsu and him so yeah continuing I found

[01:46:38] omie's sadness for nagakado very touching I had always assumed he was a psychopath in the making

[01:46:43] under his uncle's tutelage I'm very interested to see where his arc leads he seemed genuinely

[01:46:49] sad at the loss of nagakado he's also dealing with the difficulties in his love life that has no

[01:46:55] that he's no real control over yet he seems to generally care for kiku where the where a more

[01:47:02] toxic man might let his insecurities guide his actions based on the way they interacted during

[01:47:09] the scene at the future of the red light district do you guys think that there's a real connection

[01:47:14] between the two or is kiku just playing her part in what is a very regimented society also like

[01:47:22] everyone I got a kick out of toranaga city planning philosophy I hope he makes provisions

[01:47:27] for a robust zoning here in his future administration are we going to get like a parks and rec

[01:47:33] episode where everyone's just shouting at toranaga or chat man I was gonna say shouting at

[01:47:38] nagakado but rest in peace pretty funny yeah I really think that they played omie's character well

[01:47:48] and again in the in the development of of the what he's dealing with and I think it's a good point

[01:47:55] that somebody who's who would be insecure would react in very different ways I don't he's not

[01:48:03] happy about it but he's certainly contained about it right yeah it's it's super interesting I think

[01:48:11] and to your question by the way Peter I think that kiku is interested in omie but only again

[01:48:18] I'm a little bit biased because again I've seen the inner monologues a little bit more from the

[01:48:22] book but even in the show I mean the first couple episodes it seems like a lifetime away

[01:48:26] but first couple episodes you know she's like reassuring him like oh maybe you can do this

[01:48:30] and that and like really really gassing him up in a way that I think is beyond the level of just

[01:48:37] I'm a courtesan trying to get a better tip right right right right yeah maybe she has some

[01:48:43] genuine fondness for him but it can't ever go where he yeah she's not going to be keeping

[01:48:51] his house she's not going to move in they're not going to have a family they're not going to

[01:48:54] sail away into the sunset haven't you seen pretty woman there's always hope

[01:48:58] all right wrapping up Peter's email I think an interesting theme of the series has been the idea

[01:49:05] of who is a barbarian the show asks some interesting questions might be a good topic for the overall

[01:49:11] season review indeed it will be lastly to circle back to John Macdon it would seem he is crueless

[01:49:19] so I'm hoping he he will resume his bromance with Rodriguez and together they can sail for the

[01:49:26] glory of Torinaga loving the coverage and analysis best regards Peter good to hear from you Peter it's

[01:49:32] been a minute since we've gotten an email for you from you so I'm glad you're you're still out there

[01:49:36] and listening and thank you for being a subscriber uh I yeah I think the uh the uh procedural

[01:49:46] show that stars Rodriguez and Blackthorn sailing around the world and getting into crazy adventures

[01:49:53] I'd watch that and watch that in a heartbeat I think this whole series really is just a love

[01:49:59] story between two men yeah it's true it's true should I read the last one do it all right

[01:50:07] Lorhan Severin writes in and says my favorite quote of the episode when Mara co Mariko asks

[01:50:15] if Blackthorn wishes to sail for Yabashige he says I do not wish it he is a shit face

[01:50:21] but he is a brave shit face and that is the truth that was a really good moment yeah I think oh and

[01:50:27] one of the other podcasts on the on the ringer podcast they one of the co-hosts wrote down all

[01:50:34] of Blackthorn's insults from the entire season and he read them all through he read them from

[01:50:39] end to end and it was pretty good areas it was very good um on the matter of loyalty a

[01:50:46] smitten calculating Ishido offers his hand in marriage to Ochiba Ochiba and she doesn't seem

[01:50:52] to thrilled about it apparently he's been crushing on her ever since she was the taiko's most special

[01:50:58] consort lady at the end of the episode we see her approach him and genuflect he smiles

[01:51:05] does this mean she accepts even though the taiko's wife's dying words to her were Ishido

[01:51:11] comes from nothing and is nothing what did you make of the scene where Ochiba presents herself to

[01:51:18] Ishido John? I don't know I I am not sure if she accepts because I'm just not familiar with the

[01:51:24] customs here but I hope not I think it's a bad political move for her and I you know

[01:51:31] the show has done a good job of making me root for Torinaga and think that Torinaga would

[01:51:34] be the best leader of this you know whole council so I don't want to Ishido it to win he's an insecure

[01:51:41] little man who really I don't think has a place at this table and not because he's a commoner but

[01:51:46] because he's he's a very small person he's really only interested in power for power's sake

[01:51:53] and I don't think that's true of Torinaga I think Torinaga actually does try to see the

[01:51:58] best in people and try to value his value those who are loyal to him and I just don't see that with

[01:52:04] Ishido. I absolutely thought that she was accepting his offer the way that she bowed and sort of

[01:52:17] it wasn't just a oh hey regents you know from I'm the mother of the of the air and you're

[01:52:23] the regent so hey what's up she really went into a much deeper thing showing a kind of submissiveness

[01:52:31] to him which would I would expect in the norms of a husband-wife relationship in this era

[01:52:41] so I absolutely think she she took it and I don't wonder if her reaction

[01:52:48] to accepting his offer was as a pushback or a rejection of Daimo's comment to her she's going to

[01:53:02] do the opposite oh you say this be nice the the the hostages no I'm actually going to make it a

[01:53:07] little bit worse for them I'm going to do you know this other thing I'm going to do what I want to

[01:53:11] do not what you think you want me to do I think she's got some pent up frustration with that situation

[01:53:19] given that she was you know drugged in and probably you know call it rape you know it was it was oh

[01:53:27] yeah she was handed as as just a property yeah taiko right a womb right here here you know

[01:53:35] produce produce children right and and Daioin really

[01:53:42] perfectly allowed that and was just like oh this is an honor for you yeah yeah and set it up was

[01:53:47] complicit was that was right thanks so see I wouldn't doubt if Uchiha was like oh you say go this way

[01:53:53] I'll go I'm going to go that way because yeah screw you right so well David it's been lovely

[01:54:00] talking about shogun with you I think though it's time for our programming notes yes which by the way

[01:54:06] the last big episode I heard between you and Alicia the episode seven episode I looked at the time when

[01:54:12] you started the outro do you know what how much time was left no 15 minutes 15 minutes to do outro

[01:54:21] oh was this a Disney am I falling into your you're coming Disney plus so I'm gonna cut you off here

[01:54:29] oh so much to say though we have to so much to say but if you say it all then everybody forgets

[01:54:35] it so that's true we're gonna focus on the highlights patreon and super guys are lovely ways to support us

[01:54:40] you can get in there for as little as three bucks a month you could get monthly or annual

[01:54:45] subscriptions you get a discount for the annual subscription it's a great time you get early

[01:54:50] and ad-free episodes you get the show tracker and show guide access you get

[01:54:55] you know this good warm feeling in your heart that you're helping us grow our network in green

[01:55:01] light new podcasts and have a great little family here and of course you get bonus content like

[01:55:06] second breakfast and Shireside chats is that is that good David I think you did a good job

[01:55:12] all right yeah all right I'm not gonna add anything I'm biting my tail I'm just

[01:55:17] just messing with you but I did we get we got a trouble for true detective earlier in the season

[01:55:22] where we went too long on intro so you know fair enough right right no that's why I was I was like

[01:55:30] when I saw when I saw the runtime of the outro I was like yeah I got I gotta say

[01:55:34] some joke about it on the next podcast very good very good okay so back to the discord

[01:55:42] you should really hop on there it's a great conversation it's a great place to talk to

[01:55:47] like-minded people who love nerdy stuff we've got a great mod team we've got Nate who's a professor of

[01:55:54] Japaneseology history yeah yeah Asian yep and brilliant yeah filling in so many details

[01:56:03] it's really great you got great stuff and always new channels to talk about the latest tv and

[01:56:10] movies and books and video games and whatever else you want that's right now we've got a lot of

[01:56:16] affiliates especially we just launched radioactive ramblings a fallout podcast with Aaron and Chase

[01:56:23] you might recognize Aaron from our discord server as one of our mods Arduna Dine uh as Aaron K by the

[01:56:30] way and Aaron's a big fallout fan Chase is new to the property but similar to how we did rings

[01:56:36] of power one of one of them is the lore person one of them is the show only watcher and it's

[01:56:43] really a great listen and they've been growing really quickly we're very proud to see that they're

[01:56:49] making big strides with their download numbers and we hope that you'll continue

[01:56:53] to listen to their episodes they've already got episodes one through three out now

[01:56:58] they're gonna do episodes four through six as a single podcast sometime this coming week

[01:57:03] and then I think basically once a week after that it seems like or later later in the week of well

[01:57:10] two more right seven and eight and then a final wrap up because amazon dropped it as a binge so

[01:57:15] correct they're playing the game of the trying to catch up as fast as they can so every every

[01:57:19] few days you're gonna have a podcast till they finish up the season and yeah yeah have you checked

[01:57:24] it out yet great stuff I have I did the spoiler free stuff because I didn't yeah I haven't watched

[01:57:28] so yet but I'm looking no I meant to show did you check out have you checked out oh no no okay I

[01:57:33] have it but I hear great things I started watching episode one and life whatever and I haven't gotten

[01:57:40] back to a busy weekend but I'm gonna after we finish up here I'm gonna go finish up at least

[01:57:46] episode one everybody's been talking it up everybody seems to be enjoying the show so good

[01:57:50] good good yeah yeah rings and rituals of course is still coming you may have heard a promo

[01:57:55] at the beginning of this podcast if you're listening to this podcast when it came out

[01:57:59] and it's a great great podcast I've been listening to that religiously and Marilyn and

[01:58:06] Sarah Brown from Sigmund Sigmund University are covering season one of the rings of power in a

[01:58:14] rewatch where they're looking at it through the lens of ritual and what that means is

[01:58:18] they're looking at the hardfoot songs and they're looking at the dwarves and their battle

[01:58:23] of smashing rocks between you know Elrond and and Doran and they're they're diving into all these

[01:58:30] things and what they mean about the different peoples of Middle Earth and the different characters

[01:58:34] and it's it's really wonderful they're flowing from all different Tolkien sources

[01:58:38] and I hope you'll check that out it's coming out every two weeks it started in March and

[01:58:45] yeah we're looking forward to more episodes yeah it's been a good conversation and

[01:58:51] I'm just so proud of Marilyn you know she started she wrote us a letter answering a simple question

[01:58:57] and here she is she's got her whole her whole own feed you know talking about the things that she

[01:59:02] loves so we are happy to be here just creating all this space for all these other podcasters it's

[01:59:08] very cool very proud absolutely absolutely love hearing more from Marilyn wool shift dust is also back

[01:59:17] covering beacon 23 season 2 Alicia's done an interview with Hugh Howie he's hence my joke before

[01:59:24] and yeah she's doing some dune stuff she's got her new Star Wars project a timeline

[01:59:32] thing we're like looking at the entire timeline of Star Wars and that's

[01:59:35] that's getting sorted out and should be out for long yes it's just forthcoming

[01:59:40] so a lot of really cool stuff coming from Alicia David I feel like you're the properly Howard

[01:59:46] pitcher I think you should pitch it okay good at it well they've come up with their new season

[01:59:53] it's all it's entitled the felonies and fugueses and it's all about crime movies the the podcast

[02:00:01] setting up the season is out you can go find that now if you go to the show notes you can

[02:00:07] find a link to it if you go to our website it's in the run of episodes there and that

[02:00:13] podcast they draft the movies that they're going to be covering it's very hilarious very properly

[02:00:18] Howard good stuff the they've got 10 films and I believe the initial order is point break

[02:00:27] shakedown tango and cash pulp fiction and gross point blank and we've got five other movies on

[02:00:35] the back half of that but that's a that's a good start I put together a little show a movie guide for

[02:00:43] that on the notion thing and we just that's available for everyone so if you go to the discord

[02:00:48] and you go to the properly Howard channel that'll be listed in there or you can drop us an email

[02:00:54] or you know send us a patreon message or something like that and it has all of the details for

[02:00:59] all the movies and all that kind of stuff we don't have dates yet for when they're going to

[02:01:02] do it but I know Anthony's been recording a lot of stuff and I think it's gonna be a very funny season

[02:01:10] god damn jimmy this is serious going mayship

[02:01:16] you're fast on the soundboard I was like wait John sounds really weird oh wait a minute that's not

[02:01:21] John we gotta have it we gotta have the pulp fiction sense right and then once we know about

[02:01:29] season two of severance we're gonna be doing a four person podcast for that with Steve and Anthony

[02:01:36] and their season one coverage is out now so I think that's it for the affiliates that's a lot

[02:01:43] a lot of stuff to cover you can see what how many minutes I should have said it to stop watch for

[02:01:47] how long I understand I understand that's why I'm here to reign in all right we got a lot

[02:01:53] coming on the lower hounds feed of course we've still got more coming on shogun we're gonna

[02:01:58] have a season wrap up that's gotta you know you me Alicia David and I guess we're gonna do

[02:02:06] we're gonna have Nate on from the discord yeah yeah we're gonna figure out you know some sort of

[02:02:11] interview or what we haven't worked out the formatting yet but we definitely want to talk

[02:02:15] to him a little bit at the end of the season well this is how I'm learning Nate's coming on the

[02:02:18] podcast so just very exciting you haven't been listening to the podcast I've been shouting

[02:02:23] Nate out well because I was I was behind on the uh on the show yes so I couldn't listen to the

[02:02:29] podcast so I did listen to your what your 30 minutes with Alicia though that was a lot of fun I'll go

[02:02:34] back and listen to the other ones that's right uh you just did a one-shot monkey man with Alicia

[02:02:40] yeah very good and we are gonna do a one shot for civil war uh with Ron and Jean Jean I finally

[02:02:49] got to podcast with Jean and and not you actually fun yeah he was he joined Brandon and we had a great

[02:02:56] time we had a great time covering the halo game series which we covered like I want to say 60 hours

[02:03:02] of content in an hour and 20 minutes so it was uh it was it was difficult to do but we did it

[02:03:09] and we had a lot of fun with it uh I know Jean is also gonna be and Alicia of course

[02:03:14] will be with you again on the MCU podcast when we have something yeah we don't have a lot of MCU

[02:03:20] stuff right now I thought you were covering X-Men 97 they wanted you something we haven't scheduled

[02:03:23] anything for you but they want to talk I've been hearing a lot of great stuff about X-Men 97

[02:03:28] people have been raving uh about the like the way that you rave about rebels or um

[02:03:36] oh a clone wars you know those high highs people are that's the same way I'm seeing people

[02:03:41] reacting to certain episodes in that was great that's great to hear yeah um and then

[02:03:48] star wars film fest is coming back we promise we're we're gonna be doing a new home soon

[02:03:52] we've just come back and we're getting back on track with all our regular podcasts and Marilyn

[02:03:57] and I are recording two podcasts this week still merlion stories of men and earth sea we're gonna

[02:04:03] do dragonfly so plenty of pookila coming to the feed we've also got a one shot I'm gonna

[02:04:10] do a one shot with her on the completely made up adventures of dick turpin which is a fun show on

[02:04:16] apple tv and I think we're gonna get another one shot in for a three body problem I think Ron

[02:04:21] and I are going to talk about that cool well I wanted to do a one shot for curb your enthusiasm

[02:04:26] and and Ron almost did it with me but I think I don't think it's gonna happen maybe I'll

[02:04:31] find another co-host to do uh to do curb your enthusiasm with me yeah I don't know who

[02:04:36] else is uh who else is uh into nobody in the in the lorehounds field yeah okay oh well

[02:04:43] so we've got a lot upcoming as you can hear we're going to be covering house of the dragon

[02:04:48] in june at least that we're probably covering like a bunch of other stuff like dr who the acolyte

[02:04:54] the boys the bear severance rings of power whenever that comes we got too much stuff coming

[02:05:00] we got to figure out our schedule yeah but plenty of things down the pipeline

[02:05:06] quick shout out to our discord server boosters opus the machine gnarls erin k teller the

[02:05:11] thriller darker than ninjas and duve 71 thanks for helping out the the discord and having us

[02:05:18] have more emojis and other fun stuff like that it uh means a lot to us to have a supportive

[02:05:24] community for the community john it's been a while since you've given the shout out for the

[02:05:29] lore masters I think you must have done on the halo one I did do it on the halo one but

[02:05:33] but I'm happy to do it here too samaritian mark h michael g michelle e david w brian p nick w s c

[02:05:41] peter oh h patina w adam s nancy m duve 71 brian 80 63 frederick h sarah l garith c sarah oh I went

[02:05:53] backwards eric f mathew m sarah m dj miwa andre b kwang you dead i jedi bob nathan t alex v erin t

[02:06:04] subzero erin k dally v 21 mothership 61 our newest lore master hey welcome thank you

[02:06:12] you

[02:06:14] narrls narrls narrls

[02:06:17] narrls and adrian never last ever last ever last ever last ever last ever last

[02:06:25] all right uh well thanks everyone it's been a great time

[02:06:29] and uh we'll see you on the next episode of shogun

[02:06:33] the lorhounds podcast is produced and published by the lorhounds you can send questions and

[02:06:37] feedback and voicemails at the lorhounds dot com slash contact get early and ad free access to all

[02:06:44] lorhounds podcasts at patreon dot com slash the lorhounds any opinions stated are ours personally

[02:06:49] and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities thanks for listening

[02:07:00] hey listeners if you've been listening to our show chances are you've heard the wonderful

[02:07:05] contributions of our favorite Tolkien scholar marilin r puquila marilin just launched her own

[02:07:10] podcast on our network called rings and rituals join me and dr sarah brown on our journey through

[02:07:16] the lord of the rings the rings of power through the lens of ritual episodes drop every other

[02:07:21] wednesday on the rings and rituals feed linked in the show notes see you there