Shōgun - Season Wrap Up - w/Nate Ledbetter

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Shogun Podcast. We're The Lorehounds, your guides to the political intrigues of feudal Japan. I'm John.

[00:00:23] I'm David. And I'm Alicia and this is our season wrap up podcast for the 10 episode FX limited series Shogun. Today we've got a special guest with us, Nate Ledbetter, PhD candidate in Japanese studies at the East Asian Studies Department of Princeton University.

[00:00:39] We'll start off with our thoughts on the season overall and then we'll move through discussing some key themes of the show while answering listener feedback.

[00:00:48] Even though the show is over, you can still send us your emails or better yet join us on our Discord where you can chat with us with Nate and with many other fans of the show.

[00:00:57] We have dedicated threads set up for each episode of Shogun as well as other channels for all the different shows and books and movies and projects that we're working on.

[00:01:05] And there's a lot going on.

[00:01:06] Lastly, if you've enjoyed our coverage, we would invite you to support the podcast and the community. You can subscribe on Patreon or better yet Supercast, which is like Patreon, but it's kind of built better for podcasters.

[00:01:18] We'll talk about all of that stuff in more our upcoming schedule, our affiliate podcast. We'll do all that at the end of the episode.

[00:01:26] There are links for everything in the show notes of this podcast.

[00:01:29] So on to the season wrap up, let's start by welcoming Nate. Nate, you've been a regular contributor on our Discord. I feel like every time we speculate about something about Japanese history, you're like, OK, here's an essay on what you got right and wrong here.

[00:01:47] Do you guys remember when smartphones first came out and we had access to Google? I feel like Nate is the Google of that early smartphone era.

[00:01:55] It's like, I don't need to go read the history. I'll just ask Nate and he'll have the answer.

[00:01:59] Yeah, we have a friend that we just asked about particular topics for Shogun. This friend has definitely been Nate. So thank you so much. I've learned a lot from you as well from the show and also you were in.

[00:02:13] You were in that Netflix docu series. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Remind me the samurai. The age of samurai.

[00:02:20] Age of samurai. Yes. And just, you know, hello to everyone and also, you know, thank you for having me. It's been

[00:02:29] I'm glad that I've had a location where I can just kind of like dump information and it's been appreciated as opposed to, you know, what my wife or others would do, which would be stop talking. So

[00:02:44] though probably, you know, there have been a few people who've been like, OK, stop writing.

[00:02:48] Well, they get out of here.

[00:02:51] That's not lower hound behavior.

[00:02:53] Yeah, I know lower hound behavior encourages the writing and the sharing of information. So cool. Cool. Yeah.

[00:03:00] So thanks for being here, Nate. I think we will link in the show notes anything that you want any anywhere people can find you if you if they want to read your writing and things like that.

[00:03:11] I think people would really appreciate that.

[00:03:14] That sounds great.

[00:03:15] So why don't we get into the show itself? We did a full breakdown of every episode of the season. And when I say we, I mean, we because Alicia

[00:03:26] jumped in when my mom was sick and I was out for a bit and and David when you had covid and so thank you, Alicia, for

[00:03:34] Subbing in for like half a season now.

[00:03:36] We were just being Turinaka studying the winds.

[00:03:39] That's right. Right. Yeah, I mean, I don't think I don't feel I feel like Alicia is the third host of this this podcast. This for Shogun. So

[00:03:48] I've had a really good time doing it.

[00:03:50] Was that

[00:03:51] I've had a really good time doing it. It was it was a show. I didn't know I was going to get as into it as I was like,

[00:03:56] I think the first clue that I was going to really quite like it is even my mom was like, oh my God, Shogun that book.

[00:04:06] That book.

[00:04:07] That book. Yeah.

[00:04:09] You know, it's fascinating though is that I did finish the book.

[00:04:13] And for me, it was like a three out of five. It was not a really OK. The first half five out of five. The second half

[00:04:20] really drags it down. The pacing is all over the place. It's kind of dissatisfying the way certain things resolve

[00:04:28] and they don't get as deep into the character drama. And and I think the biggest weakness is it fails to really highlight Mariko as a character.

[00:04:39] And the show really, really brings her to life in a way that I don't think that the book succeeded in doing.

[00:04:45] Right. The the book is I have a very complicated relationship with the book.

[00:04:50] I should, I guess, start off by saying because quite honestly, well, the 1980

[00:04:59] mini series was my first exposure to it at age

[00:05:04] four and a half or five, something like that.

[00:05:08] And you were doomed from there.

[00:05:09] I mean, I mean, it was your whole career was that.

[00:05:12] Yep. It was the coolest thing I'd ever seen.

[00:05:16] I immediately dropped my fascination with cowboys and Native Americans

[00:05:21] and immediately pivoted to the samurai are amazing.

[00:05:26] And my parents assumed it would be a phase and well,

[00:05:31] you know, clearly not.

[00:05:32] I'm now 47 and it's still still a phase.

[00:05:37] So, you know, it was a phenomena when it came out that the series, it was huge.

[00:05:43] Absolutely.

[00:05:45] And but then, you know, for a long time, I would read the book almost yearly for like 20 years.

[00:05:55] But then the more, you know, I went and I studied Japanese in college and I lived over

[00:06:00] in Japan as an exchange student for a while.

[00:06:02] And then afterwards, when I went into the military, it was stationed in Japan

[00:06:11] and was doing kind of side study on my own of the history.

[00:06:16] And the more I got into it, the further and further away

[00:06:21] I got from the book because I just couldn't make it past some of the problems with it.

[00:06:29] You know, we can get into that later if right.

[00:06:32] If people want. But I mean, I guess it was written in the 70s still.

[00:06:36] It was it was written in the 70s.

[00:06:38] Clavelle himself did not speak Japanese.

[00:06:42] So if you'll notice, for those who have read the book, you'll see many of the names

[00:06:49] have been changed or adjusted.

[00:06:52] And part of that is because Clavelle had no idea how Japanese names worked.

[00:06:57] So he just slapped a few on there.

[00:07:00] And it was really interesting.

[00:07:01] I was I was listening to a roundtable of historians talk about the the the

[00:07:09] you know, everything from the book to the 2024 series and kind of how to deal with it as

[00:07:16] you know, both historians and educators and what they like and what they didn't.

[00:07:21] And Franz Krins, the historian who, you know, works in Japan

[00:07:30] and was the their hired historian to, you know, be their advisor

[00:07:38] for the the the show was actually there as a participant.

[00:07:43] He was, you know, in the audience and during the kind of question and answer

[00:07:46] session, I did with a few comments.

[00:07:49] And one of the things he said was, you know, that was one of the things that they

[00:07:52] went to the production team with to say, hey, this doesn't work.

[00:07:58] These names don't make any sense in the language.

[00:08:04] And I'm glad he did.

[00:08:06] Yes. But the problem is, you know, I guess what he said was, you know, he

[00:08:11] and another person suggested, you know, several name changes, but they all had to be

[00:08:18] run by James Clivell's daughter, who was kind of the the executor of the estate.

[00:08:26] Yeah, right. The custodian of it and all that.

[00:08:29] And so the impression I got and I don't want to be putting words in his mouth,

[00:08:34] but the impression I got from his answer was that some of them were were changed.

[00:08:40] Some of them were not, you know, of course, certain major characters you can

[00:08:45] you can see why they wouldn't change it because you want to keep that connection

[00:08:49] to the to what people remember and are nostalgic.

[00:08:54] You know, others I was that was one of the key tip offs to me that, OK,

[00:08:59] they've actually done some work here by changing this.

[00:09:03] That's a little shocking to me, given that Clivell is noted to have done

[00:09:08] a lot of primary research before he even started.

[00:09:12] I heard part of the official podcast.

[00:09:14] They spoke with his daughter and she said, oh, he read for a couple of years

[00:09:19] even before he wrote the first word.

[00:09:21] So, I mean, I get playing fast and loose with historical figures

[00:09:26] and some of the things that you might intricacies of the culture

[00:09:28] that you might know, but something basic like names seems like a really bad omission.

[00:09:34] I mean, I think we also have to keep in mind what I can't remember

[00:09:37] which one of you brought this up earlier already that this is before the age

[00:09:40] of Google, that it was harder to get details.

[00:09:43] Yeah, it's true.

[00:09:44] He's blowing off dust off books and he's having a hard time there.

[00:09:48] Yeah.

[00:09:50] I think that Clivell and his daughter, it's interesting

[00:09:53] you bring up his daughter.

[00:09:55] She was, I think, a producer or executive producer on the show.

[00:10:00] And she had spoken very highly of the show when she,

[00:10:04] you know, when she came on the official podcast.

[00:10:06] And one of the things she said that I really liked was she said,

[00:10:09] you know, my father was, you know, he was into the history,

[00:10:13] but the main thing was entertaining.

[00:10:16] And so the this show, what it brings to this franchise,

[00:10:21] this this whole story is the accuracy is this right level up of realism.

[00:10:28] Yeah, and I think that's

[00:10:32] important, you know, not only for

[00:10:35] the audience, but just speaking as, you know, a historian and a

[00:10:41] a teacher who works with this material.

[00:10:45] That was important to me to see, you know, that they're taking that

[00:10:50] those extra steps to make it more.

[00:10:53] You know, in some ways usable for someone like me,

[00:10:56] who is going through the show in his classes.

[00:11:00] And, you know, I've got students watching and commenting about it.

[00:11:06] In, you know, for for credit and so forth.

[00:11:09] So it was very gratifying to see that I'm, you know,

[00:11:13] just to go back a little bit to the language thing, one of the

[00:11:16] one of the things that really started to.

[00:11:20] Move me away from the book, I guess I should say, is that

[00:11:23] the Japanese language dialogue that Clavel wrote.

[00:11:27] Is. I think he did a wonderful job, given the tools that he had,

[00:11:34] like you said, Alicia didn't have Google.

[00:11:38] But I think he did a wonderful job with the tools and with what

[00:11:41] was written at that time, right?

[00:11:42] You know, we we have the advantage of

[00:11:46] 40 plus years of additional English language scholarship

[00:11:50] that doesn't exist at the time that he was researching.

[00:11:52] Interesting.

[00:11:55] And there's a lot that has come out and and changed

[00:11:58] the way we think about things.

[00:12:00] There's a lot more cultural interaction between Japan and the United

[00:12:03] States now, given the business history and things like that.

[00:12:08] Absolutely, absolutely.

[00:12:09] He didn't even have manga at the time.

[00:12:12] That's right. There was there was no.

[00:12:14] Oh, it was this this Yamamoto.

[00:12:17] Yeah, they were like the wood star bladders.

[00:12:19] And my my my students wouldn't understand a world like that

[00:12:24] without manga. But anyway, that's so.

[00:12:27] But but the the the language that like the Japanese

[00:12:31] dialogue that he writes into and he you know,

[00:12:36] I'm originally from the South, so, you know, bless his heart.

[00:12:39] Yeah, what comes to mind?

[00:12:42] I know what that means.

[00:12:44] Yes, yes.

[00:12:45] But but but he so he he he.

[00:12:49] I guarantee this is what he did is he went to the dictionary

[00:12:53] and he looked things up and he kind of had a rough idea

[00:12:57] of the grammar and it all together.

[00:13:00] But it's it's not quite right.

[00:13:03] If if that makes any sense.

[00:13:05] And so a lot of it is dictionary words just plugged into.

[00:13:10] The dialogue without the correct context or

[00:13:15] one of the ones that stands out is the word dozo,

[00:13:19] which is, you know, if you look at the dictionary, it means please.

[00:13:22] But it's like, please have a seat

[00:13:26] or, you know, oh, yeah, please come in.

[00:13:28] Or something like that.

[00:13:30] It's not a requesting please in the sense of, you know,

[00:13:36] please do this for me or, you know,

[00:13:40] please give me a cup of coffee or something like that.

[00:13:43] It's like a lightness social lubricant thing, right?

[00:13:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:13:49] It's as it has been.

[00:13:50] It has a zone of use that doesn't exist in the same way.

[00:13:53] But in a dictionary, you just get the word, please.

[00:13:56] You know, and I'm sure in 1970,

[00:13:58] like you couldn't Google, you could like, you know,

[00:14:00] you will translate or anything.

[00:14:02] So are you guys familiar with the Dunning Kruger effect?

[00:14:06] So the Dunning Kruger effect is basically describes how we all learn

[00:14:11] when we get we get a new interest and we go to down nowadays.

[00:14:15] We go down our Wikipedia rabbit hole or whatever.

[00:14:18] Clevel's we had the insight of the British before.

[00:14:22] Yeah, exactly.

[00:14:23] So just and this is a terminology I'm not making this up.

[00:14:26] This is what's used.

[00:14:27] It's not meant to insult him.

[00:14:28] But basically, so we go we're like, I don't know anything.

[00:14:32] And then you climb to the top of Mount Stupid,

[00:14:34] which is where you're like, oh, now I've learned some things.

[00:14:37] I understand it all.

[00:14:38] I am an expert on this thing.

[00:14:40] I know everything.

[00:14:41] And then you learn a little bit more and you sink into the valley of despair.

[00:14:46] And that's where you're like, I know nothing, Jon Snow.

[00:14:48] Like I really I was arrogant and I'm a fool.

[00:14:51] And there's actually like you repent two thousand tens of Japanese or whatever.

[00:14:56] And then from there, you finally take up this slope of enlightenment.

[00:15:00] You described this is described my entire journey

[00:15:04] both learning the Japanese language and and the history.

[00:15:08] Now, I thought I knew a lot before I got to graduate school

[00:15:12] and was shown just how little I knew.

[00:15:15] But yeah, and still how little I know.

[00:15:18] But anyway, I think there was some questioning in the discord.

[00:15:24] Some folks were curious about how you ended up in the military in Japan a little bit.

[00:15:28] So, OK, just a light brush around that.

[00:15:32] My brother ended up in the military in Japan accidentally.

[00:15:34] So most people, it is accidental.

[00:15:39] So for me, you know, like I said,

[00:15:42] I showed him kind of ignited that interest in Japan.

[00:15:47] I was the weird kid in, you know, elementary school show and tell

[00:15:51] presentations who is, you know, bringing in random Japanese things and in

[00:15:55] and talking about that or doing all my report.

[00:15:59] I think I didn't in like fifth grade.

[00:16:02] I wrote a report on samurai armor classification types.

[00:16:08] And I don't understand why my parents didn't disown me

[00:16:13] at certain times.

[00:16:16] We all have our our quarks anyway.

[00:16:19] But so when I was going, you know, trying to decide where I wanted to go to

[00:16:24] undergrad and so forth.

[00:16:27] You know, part of the things that I that I wanted was I wanted to

[00:16:32] go somewhere where I could go spend a year in Japan as an exchange student.

[00:16:36] And I was looking at, you know, my my family background

[00:16:41] is heavily military, you know, multiple branches.

[00:16:45] You know, my dad was Navy grandfather's Navy uncles in all of the other services

[00:16:50] except the Marines.

[00:16:54] So for for me, it was like, OK, well, how am I going to pay for college?

[00:16:58] ROTC's college. So that's what I did.

[00:17:02] So, you know, I was able to spend my sophomore year of college

[00:17:06] in Japan as an exchange student,

[00:17:10] which was wonderful, clearly.

[00:17:14] Clearly the poster on the screen, as you as we're talking, is

[00:17:22] all the way from then.

[00:17:24] And then, you know, finished up, graduated, went into the army as an officer.

[00:17:31] Did some other things for a while.

[00:17:32] Actually, my first duty assignment out of training was in Korea.

[00:17:38] And I chose that because it was the closest place I could be to Japan

[00:17:41] and still be on tanks, which is what I was was was doing.

[00:17:47] You were a tanker.

[00:17:48] Yeah, I was I was a tank platoon leader for a year in Korea.

[00:17:53] Wow. Came back was that's a short lifespan for a theater war in Korea.

[00:17:59] And you know, it it it probably would have been.

[00:18:06] I have a question about Korea to when to follow up with this,

[00:18:09] a tag on to what you're about to say is how much you feel like you learned

[00:18:13] about Japan from being there, given their interwoven history.

[00:18:17] So at the time,

[00:18:20] so I was stationed in Korea twice, actually there for a year.

[00:18:24] And then I went back a couple of years later as a as a as a unit

[00:18:28] Intel officer, both to the same camp, oddly enough.

[00:18:33] What I learned was that there's a very complicated relationship

[00:18:37] because I had some some good Korean friends that I made because,

[00:18:42] you know, they didn't speak English.

[00:18:44] I didn't speak Korean, but we both spoke Japanese.

[00:18:50] I had an interesting interaction that I that sticks with me

[00:18:55] where I was out with some friends in town.

[00:19:00] You know, we were, you know, out grabbing a beer or whatever.

[00:19:04] Uh, and I was waiting for my friend to come out of the bar.

[00:19:08] And, you know, there was this very old Korean woman.

[00:19:12] And she just, you know, kind of looks at me and I look at her.

[00:19:17] And of course, you know, I don't expect her to speak English.

[00:19:20] But she says something to me.

[00:19:22] And so, you know, I told her in Japanese because it's the language I can speak.

[00:19:28] Sorry, I don't speak Korean, but I speak Japanese.

[00:19:31] And she gets this look on her face and then starts immediately

[00:19:34] speaking to me in Japanese.

[00:19:37] And we had like a good, you know, five, ten minute conversation,

[00:19:42] which was really interesting.

[00:19:43] You know, I mean, it was just, you know, small talk and whatever.

[00:19:46] But it it's the kind of thing where it was like, huh,

[00:19:50] in the moment, this is very interesting.

[00:19:51] Why does this old lady speak Japanese?

[00:19:54] Well, it's because, you know, until 1945

[00:19:58] from, you know, 1910 to 1945, it was under Japanese colonial rule.

[00:20:01] And all the Koreans were forced to speak Japanese.

[00:20:06] So she learned it in school as a little girl during, you know, that time period.

[00:20:11] Shout out to the Apple TV show, Pachinko.

[00:20:14] Yeah, I was going to say the same.

[00:20:15] Yeah, great. Remind me to watch.

[00:20:17] Yeah. Yeah. Are you date?

[00:20:18] Did you watch that?

[00:20:19] I have not. I have.

[00:20:21] It's on the list now that I have started interacting with people

[00:20:27] and started interacting with the community

[00:20:28] and starting to get these recommendations like this.

[00:20:31] I think I could convince Alicia very easily to podcast with me about.

[00:20:34] Oh, absolutely. So I loved it.

[00:20:36] And I will talk to you.

[00:20:39] Yeah, we'll get you maybe one.

[00:20:41] I'm actually teaching a course in modern Japanese history

[00:20:45] next school year.

[00:20:46] So I don't know, maybe that'll be worth a look

[00:20:49] so that I can integrate it into the syllabus for the students or something.

[00:20:52] Ooh, yeah, sounds fun.

[00:20:54] Um, anyway, sorry.

[00:20:56] Kind of like I'm making a very long story out of all this,

[00:21:00] which I tend to do if you see my discord posts.

[00:21:06] But I so anyway,

[00:21:09] you know, station Korea twice or whatever.

[00:21:11] And then from the after the second time I went to Korea,

[00:21:15] my duty assignment was Japan because I was assigned

[00:21:19] to a small little office in Tokyo that did liaison work with

[00:21:25] its Japanese.

[00:21:26] Yes, OK. So we were in Edo

[00:21:31] doing liaison work with Japanese government agencies.

[00:21:38] And it was

[00:21:41] I got the assignment because I spoke Japanese

[00:21:44] and had that on my official records that I did.

[00:21:49] They have a qualifying test to judge how well you are,

[00:21:52] so whether they can use you or not.

[00:21:54] And so I was sent there.

[00:21:56] And at the time, it was a small little office of eight people.

[00:22:00] I was the only actually uniform military member.

[00:22:05] The rest of the office was three

[00:22:09] American civilians who worked for,

[00:22:11] you know, the U.S. Army and four Japanese civilians

[00:22:16] who worked for the U.S.

[00:22:18] And the three Americans were all Japanese American heritage

[00:22:21] speakers of Japanese.

[00:22:23] So I very quickly, my Japanese improved quite a lot

[00:22:29] because more often than not, our office

[00:22:33] discussions or meetings were all.

[00:22:36] In Japanese.

[00:22:39] And then from there,

[00:22:41] I like that was my first year in change in Japan.

[00:22:45] And then as a Japanese speaker,

[00:22:48] I just kind of stayed there.

[00:22:50] I would transfer around to different jobs.

[00:22:54] But, you know,

[00:22:57] funnily enough, when they have somebody who actually speaks

[00:23:00] the language, they like to keep them there and.

[00:23:05] You know, I got to do quite a lot of different things,

[00:23:07] including my last assignment when I was in Japan was as a liaison

[00:23:11] to a Japanese regional command headquarters

[00:23:16] where I was the only American in like

[00:23:20] well, only American, you know, service member

[00:23:24] working in like a, you know, four or five hour radius.

[00:23:28] Were you the Blackthorn of your I was, you know,

[00:23:32] do you have to talk like this?

[00:23:34] So the funny thing is

[00:23:37] I relate to Blackthorn in some ways, but honestly,

[00:23:40] given my work experience and my time as a liaison,

[00:23:44] a lot of the work I was doing was being an interpreter.

[00:23:48] I relate to Mariko so much in that regard.

[00:23:53] So it's so funny to see like all the commentary and even memes

[00:23:56] popping up about Mariko's translations and how they gradually drift away from

[00:24:03] the the the intended.

[00:24:06] Yeah, the literal.

[00:24:07] And I'm like, no, I get it.

[00:24:08] I get it. I so get it. I so get it.

[00:24:12] Sometimes you just want to get, you know, the point across

[00:24:15] as as basically as possible to make sure that it does.

[00:24:18] Right. So so, you know, thank you, Nate, for for all your background and everything.

[00:24:25] I want to talk more about the show before we run out of time here.

[00:24:30] So hot takes on the season.

[00:24:32] What did you think about the show overall?

[00:24:35] You're asking me.

[00:24:36] I'm asking you, Nate.

[00:24:37] You're asking. Congratulations, John Blackthorn.

[00:24:40] Don't worry. I'm not I'm not Philomena Cunk.

[00:24:42] I know that you're an expert, so you're all potentially victimized by Philomena Cunk.

[00:24:47] But it was hilarious.

[00:24:48] But it is it is hilarious.

[00:24:50] But I'm asking you a real question.

[00:24:52] Which show is that, John?

[00:24:53] Cunk? What is it? Cunk on Earth.

[00:24:55] Cunk on Earth. Yeah.

[00:24:56] You never saw it, Alicia? No, never.

[00:24:58] Oh, it's great. She just she has a fake history of the world.

[00:25:01] OK. And she goes and interviews different experts and tries to make them

[00:25:05] like just be just like agree with stupid things that she says.

[00:25:09] OK. It's it's funny to see whether or not the

[00:25:14] quote unquote expert that she's interviewing gets the joke or not.

[00:25:17] Yeah, there's like one guy who's always trying to make her

[00:25:21] stupid statements profound is like, well, that's actually a really

[00:25:25] interesting framing of the issue. Yeah.

[00:25:27] Anyway, anyway, enough about sorry I derailed the enough about getting on track.

[00:25:32] I'm just trying to get us on track, Alicia. Come on.

[00:25:36] Nate, what do you think of the season?

[00:25:38] So I'll be honest, I went in with kind of low expectations,

[00:25:44] mostly because I didn't want to get hurt emotionally.

[00:25:48] You have to guard your secret heart.

[00:25:50] Yeah, yeah.

[00:25:52] But I actually I was I was quite pleased.

[00:25:56] I thought they did a fantastic job.

[00:26:01] They corrected

[00:26:03] many of the things that they that the book and the show

[00:26:08] that were problematic.

[00:26:11] Let's let's say I don't want to get into necessarily what's right

[00:26:14] or what's wrong, because it's fiction.

[00:26:17] Sure. You mean more like broad themes, right?

[00:26:20] Like everyone being obsessed with suicide,

[00:26:23] everyone being obsessed, obsessed with suicide,

[00:26:26] the prevalence of

[00:26:30] kind of almost weird

[00:26:33] sexually discussion in, you know, especially

[00:26:37] it's not just the fact that sex is present in the book,

[00:26:39] but that it's very much a, you know, white man goes to

[00:26:45] nonwhite country and everybody is impressed with his manhood kind of thing.

[00:26:49] I know. So like every I was telling my wife this,

[00:26:52] I was like every 50 pages somebody has to comment on this man's penis.

[00:26:55] Like even even Toranaga at one point is just like,

[00:26:58] I hear the engine is well hung.

[00:27:00] It's just like what? Right. Right.

[00:27:03] Well, OK, so this actually takes me into, you know,

[00:27:07] one of the specific things that I wanted to do is

[00:27:10] I was looking for all of that to be gone.

[00:27:12] I was like, please get rid of all that.

[00:27:14] Don't mention the word pillowing.

[00:27:17] Don't use the ridiculous metaphors

[00:27:21] that he uses to exoticize talk about sex in Japan at this time and whatever.

[00:27:26] And so I was a little disappointed.

[00:27:30] I think it was it was it was episode two, I think,

[00:27:34] as they're coming out of Osaka

[00:27:36] before they get ambushed and

[00:27:41] they talk about or, you know, it was that it was like

[00:27:44] the doctor visit or whatever, you know, in the in the jail cell.

[00:27:51] And pillowing comes up and they talk about.

[00:27:54] Pillow.

[00:27:55] And I was like, oh, no, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:27:59] But they did cut most of it.

[00:28:02] And then as I watched through the season,

[00:28:05] what something that struck me was that every time they did use the word pillowing.

[00:28:13] Blackthorn himself is like looking at them like

[00:28:17] this is the dumbest thing.

[00:28:21] Right. Like he's, you know, first of all, in the Japanese dialogue,

[00:28:25] the word for pillow is not in there whatsoever.

[00:28:29] Um, so like it's almost in a very subtle way

[00:28:35] pointing out the ridiculousness if if, you know, if you want to interpret this way.

[00:28:40] Um, you know, the scene where

[00:28:43] Fuji is introduced as his consort to him and he's like,

[00:28:47] I don't want to pillow her pillow on her pillow pillow around her.

[00:28:54] You know, it kind of points out that whole.

[00:28:57] OK, the whole use of this pillow as a as a as a metaphor is is kind of silly.

[00:29:03] So I really appreciated that after I let it kind of like sink in a little bit.

[00:29:08] I have to ask John, every time you hear this pillowing uses,

[00:29:11] why do you think of pillow friends from the wheel of time?

[00:29:15] You know, I didn't until you just said that.

[00:29:17] I will say I do have every worm.

[00:29:19] I have an earworm of you on one of our earlier podcasts.

[00:29:22] I think the first time you subbed in for David with me, where you went,

[00:29:26] the honor of women.

[00:29:28] I don't know why, but that became an earworm for me.

[00:29:30] So every time I think of Blackthorne yelling something,

[00:29:32] I think of you shouting the honor of women.

[00:29:35] He's always defending it. It's improper.

[00:29:40] So, Alicia, your general thoughts?

[00:29:43] Um, well, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut off Nate's thoughts.

[00:29:48] But, you know, I thought that it was overall as a masterfully told tale,

[00:29:52] nearly perfect.

[00:29:54] Just incredible cast and production values.

[00:29:56] I'm so glad that I got to experience it live because this is,

[00:30:00] this is a type of cultural phenomenon where we're all watching the same show

[00:30:04] and we're all talking about it and we're all feeling things

[00:30:07] and discussing the nuance of character and history and all that.

[00:30:10] You know, this doesn't happen that often anymore.

[00:30:15] So that was another thing that just added another layer on top of just the

[00:30:21] their superb crafting of the story.

[00:30:23] And I think we're going to be talking about the show forever now.

[00:30:27] But I stand by my preference that I want,

[00:30:30] I'd rather an anthology season of, you know, a different point in Japanese

[00:30:34] history, which could even be with the same actors,

[00:30:36] but rather than a season two, because I just think it ended

[00:30:40] exactly where it should with such beautiful symmetry.

[00:30:44] And it's hard for me to imagine how they would continue this story without

[00:30:48] messing up that, you know, beautiful kind of mirror image of a total season.

[00:30:53] Yeah. That's a good point.

[00:30:56] I would agree with that.

[00:30:57] I, I just think it would be anticlimactic at best.

[00:31:02] So, yeah.

[00:31:05] So, David, what are your overall thoughts on the season?

[00:31:08] We're doing hot takes here.

[00:31:09] That's why I'm going quickly between people.

[00:31:12] It's funny, we were recording our first episode for our season one

[00:31:18] recap for House of the Dragon and we couldn't stop

[00:31:22] with the comparisons between the two.

[00:31:24] So I find it really interesting that these two are back to back with each other.

[00:31:28] And we love a good comparison on in the lore hounds, right?

[00:31:32] We love to mix our IP, you know, stew with all the different fun, chunky bits.

[00:31:38] And I like that we're having this ability to compare because

[00:31:43] one of the things that starting to watch House of the Dragon again

[00:31:48] makes me think about Shogun is that Shoga, this show

[00:31:53] was so elegant in its production and its storyline.

[00:31:57] They took such care to craft the cultural elements,

[00:32:01] the character elements, the sets and everything.

[00:32:06] That too, it was just so fine.

[00:32:10] It's a beautiful piece of artwork.

[00:32:13] And I just feel fortunate that we got to be part of it.

[00:32:17] And the fact that it then became a monocultural event in many,

[00:32:22] because I don't think it was.

[00:32:23] I don't think it probably did as big a numbers as House of the Dragon will do.

[00:32:27] But there was a definite buzz around it.

[00:32:29] And we as podcasters love that because that means audience, right?

[00:32:33] It means downloads. It means connecting with people and not to be too cynical.

[00:32:37] It's just fun to be part of a group event when things are happening like that.

[00:32:42] So I found it was really profound, dealt with a lot of really deep,

[00:32:46] interesting topics like loyalty, like fate,

[00:32:52] like the whole question of, you know, the different heart,

[00:32:55] your different hearts and your motivations.

[00:32:59] And then the acting was phenomenal.

[00:33:03] I was really skeptical of Cosmo Jaro's going into this.

[00:33:06] I saw some of those early production stills that they release.

[00:33:10] And I was just like, oh, no, this is going to be bad.

[00:33:13] I didn't like him the last thing I saw him in.

[00:33:15] So, yeah, I was with you.

[00:33:16] Right. And but yet he sunk right into the role perfectly.

[00:33:20] And then to see Anna Sawai as a monster, she has got acting chops for days.

[00:33:26] Then to think that she came out as a J-pop star, you know.

[00:33:30] But you can also see the directing was so good because she filmed

[00:33:33] Monarch after this and she's fine in Monarch.

[00:33:35] Seriously, she's fine, though.

[00:33:37] And this is, you know, next level where exactly she should be getting an Emmy soon.

[00:33:42] Yeah, seriously.

[00:33:43] You know, the first thing is she was not she was not let out of her J-pop

[00:33:48] contract to play.

[00:33:51] It was one of those DC.

[00:33:52] It was in Suicide Squad.

[00:33:53] She was asked to be in Suicide Squad.

[00:33:56] Forgot the name of the character.

[00:33:57] And apparently her J-pop group was like, no, you can't do that.

[00:34:00] Interesting. Yeah.

[00:34:02] I've got to protect the brand.

[00:34:03] Got to protect the J-pop brand.

[00:34:05] Yeah. Anyway, I just really enjoyed this season.

[00:34:09] I think it's it's going to have legs.

[00:34:12] So it's a kind of thing you can come back to year after year and find new nuances.

[00:34:16] And as you learn, if you're of that interest,

[00:34:19] you know, if you learning about more about Japanese history and culture.

[00:34:23] And I do agree that, you know, something that has been brought up

[00:34:27] is that there is a Western fascination with Japanese culture.

[00:34:32] And that has been around, I think, for a long time.

[00:34:34] And when we see

[00:34:38] when we compare Western European feudal history to Japanese feudal history,

[00:34:42] there's a lot of similarities in terms of feudal structure.

[00:34:46] So that's interesting.

[00:34:46] And the fact that we have knights and armor.

[00:34:48] So if you're at all into the medieval warfare kind of stuff as a kid,

[00:34:52] certainly got that bug at one point to see the Japanese versions of these things.

[00:34:58] And so there's so much depth and history and richness

[00:35:02] that you could just keep watching this over and over again

[00:35:05] and continue to discover new things about it.

[00:35:08] So I really appreciate that from an art standpoint.

[00:35:11] And I'm quite satisfied that there's going to be no season two.

[00:35:15] I agree.

[00:35:15] Not I am into a single season of television.

[00:35:20] Station 11, the Queen's Gambit.

[00:35:23] Certainly Shogun is going to rank in there.

[00:35:25] Tell a story well, have a beginning, middle and end and

[00:35:30] and do that thing. And that's it done right.

[00:35:32] We don't always have.

[00:35:34] There are certain shows that we want to roll on forever.

[00:35:37] You know, Slow Horses is kind of a great popcorn,

[00:35:39] modern television show of that ilk.

[00:35:42] Even though it's not 22 episodes, it's more in the 10 range.

[00:35:45] That's fine. That thing can run forever.

[00:35:47] And it's fun and it is what it is.

[00:35:49] A story like this where it's profound and thoughtful and crafted.

[00:35:54] Cool. See it one season done.

[00:35:56] It's going to it's going to have a lot of potency and power

[00:35:59] for me going forward, knowing that they're not trying to milk it for money.

[00:36:03] Now, if the showrunners and the production team

[00:36:07] want to do something else, they have my attention.

[00:36:09] If FX says in a few years, hey, we're doing something else

[00:36:12] with the same writers and the showrunner or in the production, whatever.

[00:36:15] I'm there. You don't have to convince me, right?

[00:36:17] You've got me at the at the at the opening statement.

[00:36:20] So, yeah, really, really an amazing show.

[00:36:23] And I am also just really I love our fandom.

[00:36:27] I love the the the Lohrhounds community.

[00:36:29] I love the fact that the three of us were able to communicate.

[00:36:32] I love the fact that this show brought, you know, Nate to us as well.

[00:36:36] And so I think from that standpoint, it's also interesting

[00:36:40] because this is what we love as this community

[00:36:43] is to nerd out on television together.

[00:36:45] And it did that for us in so many ways.

[00:36:50] Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

[00:36:51] I mean, this show, I went in really skeptically

[00:36:55] because you had suggested this to me and I wrote in to get a screeners.

[00:36:58] And they said no. And I was like, well, now I don't want to cover it.

[00:37:00] But even but even though even without it, I was like, oh,

[00:37:06] this seems like it could be a really cheap historical piece.

[00:37:09] I don't know if I really was nervous.

[00:37:11] I'm always nervous about an American production screwing it up.

[00:37:16] Although I don't know if this was a fully American production.

[00:37:18] I believe they they filmed a lot of it in Japan, too.

[00:37:22] And they had a lot of Japanese personnel involved.

[00:37:25] But anyway, I'm always as people keep pointing out with the foliage.

[00:37:30] Yeah. All right.

[00:37:30] The rain in the trees. Yeah. Fine. Fine.

[00:37:34] I will say production wise, amazing.

[00:37:37] You know, comparing to House of the Dragon, they both have great wig work.

[00:37:40] The wig people are really on it.

[00:37:42] You and Joanna Robinson.

[00:37:44] Oh, yeah. There's a wig watch on.

[00:37:45] We watch. I forgot about her with that.

[00:37:49] Yeah. So, you know, the wigs are great.

[00:37:51] The makeup is great. The costuming is great.

[00:37:53] Oh, the costuming is just divine.

[00:37:55] Everyone's got that game.

[00:37:58] The hat game is great.

[00:37:59] I still think of psyche's costumes.

[00:38:02] Oh, psyche's helmet. That was awesome.

[00:38:04] Yeah. And that's like real, right?

[00:38:05] There's like a dude.

[00:38:06] There's like statue with that guy who's got that.

[00:38:09] Yeah, that was a very popular, popular style, which is amazing.

[00:38:13] Speaking as somebody with military experience and so forth,

[00:38:17] the idea of some of these helmets in combat seems.

[00:38:23] I know I just I don't get it.

[00:38:26] I don't get it. But I get like,

[00:38:29] you know, if you saw

[00:38:32] the Taiko's armor in some of the scenes where,

[00:38:36] you know, Ishida or is in the the

[00:38:39] yes, the chamber stamping the documents and he looks over at the Taiko's

[00:38:44] armor looming over him with the huge.

[00:38:47] Just like the one behind you.

[00:38:49] Just like the one behind me, because that's a poster of from NHK,

[00:38:54] the Japanese National Broadcasting Company's production of a drama series

[00:38:59] based on the, you know, real historical Taiko's life.

[00:39:04] And the fact that they used like these real armor was a bit like.

[00:39:09] You know, some of them were were a bit odd.

[00:39:14] You know, I won't go into too much detail, but Yabushi's armor was

[00:39:19] a little bothersome to me, though the mullet helmet, you know.

[00:39:24] How can you not love that?

[00:39:27] But but the fact that they went in and they like

[00:39:30] the Taiko's armor is an actual set of armor or base,

[00:39:34] you know, based on an actual set of armor that the real historical person

[00:39:38] wore was a nice touch.

[00:39:41] I thought I thought that was great.

[00:39:43] Maybe we'll get you in Matt Cavanaugh.

[00:39:46] I don't know if you heard that podcast with Matt Cavanaugh on Star Wars.

[00:39:49] He's a retired lieutenant colonel, I think.

[00:39:53] And he was a he's a military historian and he taught at West Point.

[00:39:57] And we had a great conversation with him and we're planning to have him

[00:40:02] come back at some point, maybe I'll have you and him on the pod

[00:40:05] or something like that. That would be fun to talk to your military history.

[00:40:07] Anyway, roundtable, can I give you a would you rather?

[00:40:10] Would you rather go into battle using Saik?

[00:40:13] He's helmet or Damon's winged helmet.

[00:40:16] Oh, oh, you know, he does.

[00:40:21] Damon does lose the wings when he's at an actual combat.

[00:40:25] I think maybe they just detach or something.

[00:40:26] Yeah, because that gives something for people to grab on to.

[00:40:29] Sure. Well, I don't know.

[00:40:31] Thank you. Has a pretty big target to grab onto to

[00:40:34] it is harder to grab. There's too much.

[00:40:37] Thank you. I just think of it as because it's so tall.

[00:40:41] I'd be worried, you know, if you're in an open field,

[00:40:44] that's what you might say.

[00:40:46] It's an arrow magnet.

[00:40:47] But if you if you were in any kind of like a forest

[00:40:51] or anything like that, you're just banging on every tree.

[00:40:58] So you're losing that hat anyway.

[00:41:01] That's right.

[00:41:02] All right. I think that's enough for hot takes.

[00:41:04] Why don't we take a quick break?

[00:41:06] When we get back, we will dive a little deeper and get into listener feedback.

[00:41:20] And we're back.

[00:41:24] So I want to get a little bit deeper into this show.

[00:41:28] And I think we could actually use the listener feedback to structure

[00:41:30] because the listener feedback, we as Nate, you know,

[00:41:33] our listeners are often long winded and they they like to give us

[00:41:38] their their deep thoughts.

[00:41:39] So first up, we've got Jake P,

[00:41:44] an OG listener, as you've written here, David.

[00:41:47] You know, if by the way, you can send emails to Shogun at the lorehounds.com,

[00:41:51] we're not going to read them on air because it's the last podcast,

[00:41:53] but you can always send us an email if you just want to chat.

[00:41:56] So Jake writes, Hey, lorehounds,

[00:41:59] been listening since rings of power and first time commenting.

[00:42:03] Well, thanks for being here a long time, Jake.

[00:42:05] I want to make sure that you see that in the Shogun finale,

[00:42:09] the final shot shows Toranaga standing on the lakeside

[00:42:13] with the mountains spread out on either side of him, like the lake.

[00:42:17] And then the mountain is covered with the falcon wings.

[00:42:20] If you look carefully, his hair even resembles the falcons hood.

[00:42:24] Just thought it was an awesome moment and wanted to make sure

[00:42:28] you pointed out to listeners in your recap.

[00:42:30] Thanks for all the great content.

[00:42:32] Please give me a shout out so I can share with my wife, Jake.

[00:42:35] Hello, Mrs. Jake.

[00:42:36] Jake wrote into the podcast, we promise.

[00:42:40] No, that's a really cool observation.

[00:42:42] I've got to I mean, I can I can still picture it in my head,

[00:42:45] very well spotted.

[00:42:47] That is fun.

[00:42:48] I think it goes to the production again,

[00:42:53] the way that they use the camera to tell the story,

[00:42:57] the way that they were conscious of the backgrounds and of the environment

[00:43:02] and how they used all of these pieces to create a rich visual storytelling.

[00:43:08] There was the scene when Mariko was trying to leave Osaka Castle

[00:43:14] and we've got the people up on the battlements watching.

[00:43:17] And then we've got her down below.

[00:43:20] And the way that they use the camera,

[00:43:24] they use this continual push in with these short push movements

[00:43:29] and all through the the setup of that

[00:43:34] whole scene all the way back to even when she's not in the courtyard

[00:43:39] yet, when she's getting ready to leave.

[00:43:41] And that push movement

[00:43:44] connotes sort of energy, it gives you a sense of movement

[00:43:48] and the closeness and the intimacy of the situation that you're in.

[00:43:54] And so that really adds to the tension

[00:43:57] and you feel the increasing tension as they're starting to fight.

[00:44:02] Or in that scene when she reaches down to have the

[00:44:07] the spear put into her hand.

[00:44:08] I'm sorry, what is it?

[00:44:08] It's the Naginata.

[00:44:11] Thank you to take the Naginata.

[00:44:14] It's a perfectly framed shot.

[00:44:16] When she falls back exhausted at the end, she falls back into the court

[00:44:20] a little sort of accidental cordon of arrows that were shot at her feet.

[00:44:26] And so it further gives us the feeling of being trapped.

[00:44:30] Right. Even though it's an indirect thing, it's still very present.

[00:44:34] Or after Ishido gives them their papers

[00:44:41] Blackthorn and Mariko are standing there.

[00:44:43] And as the camera pulls back and we see the wide shot, it's a wedding.

[00:44:49] Right. The visual shot implies that they're now spiritually wed together.

[00:44:54] They had this moment of union.

[00:44:56] They don't have to tell us that they don't have to say anything.

[00:44:59] They can show us that.

[00:45:00] And I think with this idea of what Jake is saying with the Falcon wings,

[00:45:06] you know, that was just maybe something that just happened in the moment.

[00:45:09] They were just like, oh, that's kind of cool.

[00:45:11] Maybe they weren't even really aware of it directly.

[00:45:14] And they were just trying to frame a shot nicely so that, you know,

[00:45:17] there's not weird things in the background

[00:45:19] popping out at sprouting out of somebody's head.

[00:45:22] But that's just that goes to the point that I made earlier

[00:45:24] that the show is crafted, that they cared about every single element

[00:45:28] that went into the show.

[00:45:29] Yeah, I even think of Cosmo Jarvis sort of stumbling

[00:45:33] towards the screen angrily in his Honor of Woman scene.

[00:45:38] You know, it feels like he's getting bigger.

[00:45:40] He's taking up more space in the scene, right?

[00:45:43] He's distracting the attention of the Ishido forces.

[00:45:47] One of the things I found very interesting on rewatch

[00:45:51] was that. That scene,

[00:45:54] both of those scenes, the Mariko scene where she's attempting to leave

[00:45:59] and ends up fighting with an iconata

[00:46:02] and the the Black Lauren scene where he, you know,

[00:46:06] provides the distraction by pretending to go crazy at whatever.

[00:46:11] Those take place in the exact same spot

[00:46:15] that, you know, kind of little Bailey in between gate houses.

[00:46:21] And of course, you know, I didn't notice that on the first watch,

[00:46:24] but going back and rewatching it and seeing it like

[00:46:28] you become so much more familiar with the locations

[00:46:30] and you can see kind of that symmetry.

[00:46:34] And I thought that was very interesting.

[00:46:36] It's this, you know, we keep going back to that spot

[00:46:39] to see these moments of pivotal action

[00:46:43] that involve leaving or or or or being prevented to leave,

[00:46:49] which I thought was very interesting.

[00:46:51] All right. So let's move on to Dork of the Ninjas.

[00:46:54] Michael, who writes it, you know, one time

[00:46:57] when we were still in bald move, Brandon and I hopped on

[00:47:02] Sea of Thieves, which is a video game, and Dork of the Ninjas came on.

[00:47:07] And I was like, what do I call you, Dork?

[00:47:09] And he's like, Michael is fine.

[00:47:14] Anyway, so Michael wrote in both a message and a voicemail.

[00:47:19] Let's start with the message.

[00:47:22] Michael says, hey, guys, just wanted to write in

[00:47:24] since I'm out of town for work about the latest episode of Shogun.

[00:47:27] Wow, what an episode.

[00:47:28] This episode was Mara goes from the start and she never let us think otherwise.

[00:47:32] From the way she walked out of the regent room to her owning her death

[00:47:37] at the end, she never let anyone tell her that she wasn't in control.

[00:47:41] They even made me believe her and Blackthorn were properly together

[00:47:44] now with him subbing in as her second.

[00:47:46] It showed her loyalty, his loyalty to her

[00:47:49] and that he could be loyal even at all.

[00:47:54] I cannot wait for the last episode in the series of recap.

[00:47:56] Keep up the great coverage.

[00:47:57] I guess I guess either this was a late write in or we missed it

[00:48:01] on the episode nine.

[00:48:02] I think we did.

[00:48:03] Did we skip feedback on nine?

[00:48:06] I don't know. Yeah, we skipped feedback on 10 directly.

[00:48:08] OK, so yeah, yeah.

[00:48:12] Well, anyway, I wanted to open this up because I skipped

[00:48:15] Nate's other two points on his general thoughts.

[00:48:18] So I wanted to open this up for Nate to go talk about

[00:48:22] the Marco JB relationship.

[00:48:25] Oh, well, OK, yeah.

[00:48:27] So one of the things that I really appreciated

[00:48:33] even through the rewatch thought it was good was the

[00:48:39] the way that they adjust, I guess I should say,

[00:48:43] because they don't eliminate it.

[00:48:44] Obviously, we see that that that Mariko and JB have a relationship,

[00:48:50] but they don't make it overt

[00:48:55] and they don't.

[00:48:57] Dwell in it, I guess I should say,

[00:49:00] they they cut a lot of what comes in as the book is like

[00:49:03] they have this long love affair and it's very

[00:49:08] you know, it's obviously sexual, but it's also very romantic

[00:49:11] and they're speaking to each other in Latin and it's like Romeo

[00:49:14] and Juliet, right?

[00:49:14] Yeah, you get these scenes.

[00:49:16] Yeah, right.

[00:49:19] And they cut all that,

[00:49:22] which I appreciate because I think that's where a lot of the sense

[00:49:26] of, you know, white man goes to foreign land

[00:49:30] and wins over the ladies

[00:49:34] kind of sentiment is is rooted in is those scenes. Right.

[00:49:38] But they don't cut it entirely.

[00:49:40] What we get is these, you know, what I think is more realistic.

[00:49:45] There's a few nights of passion that happen in times

[00:49:51] where the emotions are particularly high.

[00:49:54] The first time we see them get together and we're not even,

[00:49:58] quote unquote, really sure that it's her because, you know,

[00:50:01] they they don't tell us directly and they don't show her face

[00:50:05] very clearly, but is is right after they've had kind of

[00:50:09] the what I've seen called the date scene in the hot spring

[00:50:15] where he's describing taking her to, you know, if we were in London,

[00:50:20] I'd take you out to a play and we go meet the queen

[00:50:22] and walk along these place.

[00:50:24] And it's after they think her husband has died.

[00:50:28] So she's, you know, by as far as anyone knows, at that point,

[00:50:32] a free woman.

[00:50:34] And so she kind of decides, well, yeah, why not?

[00:50:39] Let's do it. And she, you know, goes into his room and just a quick side

[00:50:44] note on the Buntaro thing.

[00:50:46] I would we said this on the episode way back when, but

[00:50:50] I would totally watch the standalone episode

[00:50:53] or a little mini series of Buntaro fighting his way from the docks

[00:50:59] back to a zero like, you know, I don't care how long it is,

[00:51:03] an hour, two hours, a mini series.

[00:51:05] I don't care. I want to be a chibi anime with, you know,

[00:51:09] like the cartoon blood splattering.

[00:51:11] Yes. Yeah, that would be so perfect.

[00:51:13] No, and Buntaro's face and like enraged, you know,

[00:51:16] battle enragement. And yeah, totally.

[00:51:18] Anyway, sorry. As he's as he's, you know,

[00:51:21] making his way through enemy lines and slaughtering.

[00:51:24] I think I think animation is a good call.

[00:51:26] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:28] But then, you know, we have the relationship

[00:51:33] getting back to the relationship between Mariko and Blackthorn.

[00:51:37] It's complicated. It's not this lovey dovey story.

[00:51:40] They have conflict.

[00:51:42] There's scenes where it appears where Mariko actually hates him.

[00:51:48] She doesn't want to talk about what happened.

[00:51:50] She's not like in this for a relationship.

[00:51:53] She's disgusted by him at times. But then.

[00:51:57] They come back together,

[00:51:59] you know, in episode nine,

[00:52:03] as the result of an emotional experience

[00:52:06] where she's just gone through, you know,

[00:52:09] literally being seconds from death.

[00:52:12] And he's made this grand gesture of offering to help her in that,

[00:52:18] despite that he doesn't want to do that at all. Right.

[00:52:22] That he has this love for her,

[00:52:25] which is much more than just this this sexual passion. Right.

[00:52:29] And it's understood her. Right. Right.

[00:52:32] Like he showed like not only that, I mean, he showed that,

[00:52:36] but he also shows it in the whole.

[00:52:39] It's kind of cheesy, the scene where he's like, you know,

[00:52:41] if not for good sense, if not for, you know, yourself live for me.

[00:52:48] As if she was ever going to say, oh, right.

[00:52:50] Well, I've totally changed my mind now.

[00:52:52] But I think she shows by when she grabs his hand

[00:52:56] that she understands where, you know, that for him,

[00:53:00] that's an expression of his feelings.

[00:53:04] And then for him to then come around,

[00:53:07] you know, shortly after that and offered to be her second

[00:53:11] giving her what she wants, even though it's the opposite of what he wants,

[00:53:14] I think is a very natural lead in to then what happens afterwards,

[00:53:20] where they have, you know, they they get together physically again.

[00:53:24] I think it's much better done that way than giving us this,

[00:53:28] you know, love story and then, you know,

[00:53:33] spending time on, oh, well, what happens if we get caught or blah, blah, blah?

[00:53:37] I just thought it was a way to include it, but not.

[00:53:43] Dwell in it.

[00:53:44] Well, makes it for a lot of people, you know, a lot of people love,

[00:53:49] especially the love stories where it's about the lingering glances

[00:53:53] and about the yearning rather than the consummation.

[00:53:57] And then especially because, you know, we want to we can respect these characters

[00:54:01] more when we think they're doing their best to hold by whatever vows.

[00:54:06] I mean, I guess Blackthorne is and he does not seem to care

[00:54:09] about the family back home.

[00:54:10] But Marco, at least, you know, she in this version of it,

[00:54:14] which I understand is a change.

[00:54:16] She didn't act on anything until she thought her husband was dead.

[00:54:20] Right, right.

[00:54:21] And and then once she realizes that he's alive, she no longer acts on it

[00:54:27] until that last night.

[00:54:28] Right, right. And that felt earned.

[00:54:33] And then, interestingly enough, the fact that they're together

[00:54:36] in the room is key to her survival.

[00:54:42] Well, not survival, but her not getting captured

[00:54:47] because Blackthorne's there to assist when the Shinobi attack occurs.

[00:54:52] I think this year and I'll and I'll push back to you, Alicia,

[00:54:56] Alicia in a minute.

[00:54:57] Did you ever think this year that you'd be defending

[00:55:00] decapitation as an act of love?

[00:55:04] I did not.

[00:55:05] Yeah. Willingness to decapitate, you know, whatever you need, honey.

[00:55:09] Yeah, I think that marks Blackthorne's journey, though.

[00:55:13] And this is an interesting point.

[00:55:15] That was, I believe, brought up in the official podcast.

[00:55:18] Maybe I can't remember where all the sources are.

[00:55:20] But this idea that Blackthorne has an evolution as his character evolves

[00:55:27] over time or Yabushige stops and he doesn't evolve and he ends up dead

[00:55:31] and Blackthorne ends up a caged bird, but still alive and living

[00:55:36] a version of his best life.

[00:55:38] But that these are these markers where he is.

[00:55:42] Where he is.

[00:55:44] He's come around and he actually understands what Mariko needs in that moment

[00:55:51] before he was like, come run away and escape.

[00:55:53] That's his.

[00:55:54] That's him.

[00:55:56] Whereas in that moment, he finally realizes, oh no, if I really do love her,

[00:56:01] then what what is it that she needs in this moment?

[00:56:03] I need to be selfless and I need to do this thing that will haunt me forever.

[00:56:09] But I'm willing to do it.

[00:56:11] That's what he's giving up.

[00:56:12] Yeah, exactly.

[00:56:13] And then at the end, when he's willing to commit, Sepkuh and Tornaga stops him.

[00:56:22] Again, that's another marker of his evolution that he's willing to

[00:56:27] give his life to something greater than himself, which is to save the village,

[00:56:33] to save the villagers of Angiro.

[00:56:36] He's starting to understand the cultural language of Japan, not just the spoken word,

[00:56:44] but the forms and the methods.

[00:56:47] I think that's really interesting when you think about what Hiromatsu did.

[00:56:51] He's like, I can't let all of these generals do this.

[00:56:55] I'm going to take it for the team.

[00:56:58] Blackthorn is able to take that lesson as well and evolve.

[00:57:02] And they told that story in the relationship between Mariko and Blackthorn.

[00:57:07] That's how we see this change.

[00:57:10] That relationship is really central to how the story moves from beginning to end.

[00:57:17] Alicia, you were going to say something?

[00:57:19] Yeah, I was going to ask you guys, what do you think would have happened if Ishido had

[00:57:24] succeeded in kidnapping Mariko?

[00:57:26] Would that have caused Torunaga's plan to fail?

[00:57:33] It seems to me, if I think about it, the way that Mariko was arguing it,

[00:57:38] it would still show that she was unsafe in his castle.

[00:57:43] How would you stop Mariko from... Sorry.

[00:57:46] Go ahead.

[00:57:48] Just how do you think it would have affected Torunaga's plan or do you think it would have

[00:57:53] backfired on Ishido?

[00:57:54] I think Mariko would have used every opportunity, found every opportunity to

[00:58:03] remove herself, to end her life.

[00:58:09] I think she would have taken every single opportunity and at some point that's the

[00:58:13] Crimson Sky grenade that would have gone off because everybody loved Mariko.

[00:58:17] She is an Aragorn of society in Osaka.

[00:58:22] And so that would still have rocked the foundation.

[00:58:25] So I think she would have just... Whatever the method, she would have figured something out.

[00:58:34] Her entire purpose is, and she says this in the episode, is to make obvious or to...

[00:58:44] I mean, everybody knows it, but nobody's saying that Ishido is holding everybody there as host.

[00:58:51] And she's forcing them to say it out loud.

[00:58:54] It's the whole make them say the quiet part out loud thing.

[00:58:58] So I think at that point, even if she's captured, Torunaga hasn't been a Catch 22

[00:59:06] where if she dies, then everybody is upset that he killed her and turns against him.

[00:59:16] If she lives, but nobody's allowed to leave, then it's very obvious that he is bungling

[00:59:24] everything and forcing everybody to stay there and not letting people go freely.

[00:59:31] And so therefore they're going to turn against it.

[00:59:34] So I don't know if they're surviving.

[00:59:39] I guess he just wanted to make her stop saying the quiet part out loud,

[00:59:42] maybe hiding her out of view, he thought would be better.

[00:59:46] Honestly, as I was watching it this morning for the second,

[00:59:53] I don't know, the fifth time, something like that.

[00:59:57] The thought occurred to me that he had already lost, but ordering the Shinobi

[01:00:05] attack was the final screw up. He compounded everything and made it worse

[01:00:12] to the point where I actually think when he says, we know it's not true because he

[01:00:19] contacted Yabashige and got Yabashige's help, but he suggests after the fact that

[01:00:26] only Torunaga would be wily enough to have contacted ninjas and had them attack,

[01:00:35] almost setting it up like it's like, well, Torunaga did it to make us look bad.

[01:00:39] Right. Well, we know that's not the case, but it's almost plausible because it's such a dumb move.

[01:00:47] So yeah, like I it's very obvious in the in the in the council scene afterwards

[01:00:55] that where Kiyama is even like, I mean, I can't believe somebody on the council might have

[01:00:59] even done that. I was trying to remember. Yeah, it was Kiyama like, oh, you know,

[01:01:05] this castle is not so safe. No other woods. There's so many bandits in the woods. Oh,

[01:01:11] Osaka. Oh, right. So to me, that highlights the fact that yeah, that that that Ishiro has royally

[01:01:20] screwed this up. Royally. So, you know, no matter or peasant effect was right. Well played.

[01:01:31] All right. So we're running out of time here, so I want to make sure that we get to everybody.

[01:01:35] Michael also left a voicemail. So, David, can you play that now? Here we go. Hey, guys,

[01:01:40] just want to get my thoughts on the most final episode of Shogun. I really do want to focus

[01:01:44] on the upsheet basically how I've come to realize he's basically like a wild animal

[01:01:48] into a degree. You could see when in this episode, I think capitalizes that in two

[01:01:54] different ways. He would constantly always just go to whatever was the best source

[01:02:01] of power or food for what it would be for an animal power for him and also

[01:02:06] what would be the best situation there. And he got to the point where in this episode,

[01:02:12] he became a cornered animal and we saw him go as radical we've ever seen him go

[01:02:17] had the moments of just trying to just do every desperate measure to just save himself

[01:02:23] until the moment of he gets a specific who ordered. He is trying his best to get himself out of it.

[01:02:29] But once he realized there is nowhere for me to go, I am going to die. He surrenders himself

[01:02:34] at that point. And you can see he even kind of I think use himself as that and realize

[01:02:40] that about himself is death poem, giving the thoughts of leave my body for the wild. It's

[01:02:46] like basically for a dog, let a dog be fed by my body. That's like he views himself I think

[01:02:54] as that dog was constantly always looking for wherever he can find his next meal,

[01:02:59] always looking for where he could just skate by don't worry about allegiance is just worried

[01:03:04] about what was best for him at all times and the consequences of anybody else.

[01:03:09] I think he's a great character. He's one of my favorite characters. I think I've ever seen

[01:03:12] an angel period. But I don't think you can trust his weaknesses as far as you throw them.

[01:03:20] But I love this series, one of the best series the last five or 10 years in my opinion.

[01:03:26] I just hope that this creative team comes up with something else in the future to

[01:03:31] put on screen because I would love to see whatever they come up with next.

[01:03:34] Just want to get my thoughts. You know, have a good one.

[01:03:36] Yeah, very poignant observations. I saw you guys nodding a lot.

[01:03:41] I have a dune comp. I can't go into it because we'd go forever. But that's a big theme of dune

[01:03:46] is humanity versus base organism, you know, reacting to stimulus response versus learning.

[01:03:55] What's that?

[01:03:55] It versus ego to put it in Freudian terms.

[01:03:57] There you go. And I think I made the point earlier, Blackthorn evolves, Yawashige stops.

[01:04:04] And that's the result.

[01:04:07] Yeah, you know, the hairs go up on my arms when I hear we're starting to compare

[01:04:14] humans to animals. And then I'm like, okay, okay, I see where you're going.

[01:04:18] And I'm done panicking.

[01:04:21] Michael, you made a good point in the end. I think really the main point is we are all

[01:04:26] animals and there are ways to live where we're just surviving and going on our base instincts.

[01:04:32] And that seems to be the Yabashige method and the Blackthorn method at the beginning.

[01:04:36] It's only later that he grows, you know, I called him, I called the Yabashige a really

[01:04:40] good foil to Blackthorn in the traditional sense.

[01:04:42] Yeah.

[01:04:43] On our season, on our episode 10 episode, because Blackthorn learns to rise above his

[01:04:49] instincts and Yabashige never does.

[01:04:52] I'm going to just bite my finger because I know we got to get roll keep rolling

[01:04:55] on the feedbacks or so. That's a rich, this is a rich vein that we could, we could mine.

[01:05:01] Cincinnati Joe.

[01:05:02] Hey Joe. Were you surprised that there wasn't an indication at the end of the finale about

[01:05:09] the fate of Toranaga, Blackthorn and Japan? Either the characters or the real life equivalents.

[01:05:14] I thought there might be cards briefly summarizing that Blackthorn never returns to

[01:05:20] England. Toranaga becomes Shogun and the country enters its most peaceful period.

[01:05:24] David, will you hit my sound?

[01:05:27] Blackthorn and Buntaro became best friends and took to Hawaii together.

[01:05:32] Toranaga made a dartboard with Yabashige's face painted on it.

[01:05:36] Omi was such an amazing ruler of Ajiro that they let him grow his hair out.

[01:05:42] That's all I got.

[01:05:45] Well played. That was awesome. John was like in the background,

[01:05:49] can you load the sound and stand by? So I was like, that was great, John.

[01:05:54] That was really fun. Inspired.

[01:05:56] Yeah. You know, I do think that it would have been interesting to get that at the end,

[01:06:00] but I almost am just like, you can go with it. Right? It's all out there.

[01:06:05] I'm glad they didn't because I think that he made-

[01:06:07] That's why you have me.

[01:06:11] You got to justify your own existence.

[01:06:12] But Toranaga did straight up- Toranaga said he's never returning to Japan. So

[01:06:17] and I think that in Toranaga we knew who's going to be Shogun. I think yeah,

[01:06:22] the fact that it enters its most peaceful period might have been an interesting note

[01:06:25] at the end, but Toranaga literally told us.

[01:06:28] That's the- goes back for me to the elegance of the show. Another show would have done that,

[01:06:33] and it would have been fine and useful. This show didn't even want to go there

[01:06:38] and I think that gives it a mark of a different quality.

[01:06:42] Yeah. So what do you think is like the biggest three bullet points that we should

[01:06:48] know about what happens after this in history?

[01:06:52] Okay. So the three biggest bullet points, I would say one Toranaga or the real life Tokugawa Ieyasu

[01:07:03] wins the battle of Sekigahara and immediately it's very apparent that he does in fact

[01:07:12] want to and is planning to become Shogun as he starts taking steps in that direction.

[01:07:18] He doesn't receive the official title for a couple years after, but that's going to happen.

[01:07:26] Two would be that the heir and Ochiba and some of their supporters hang around for another

[01:07:36] 15 years, but that the historical Toranaga creates an excuse we'll say in 1614

[01:07:48] to surround Osaka Castle. There's an incident that he claims is an insult to him

[01:08:00] and so at that point even the major warlords who had been-

[01:08:11] Even the ones who had been- the warlords who had been against him at Sekigahara

[01:08:16] and on the losing side were now on his side. So if you imagine Kiyama or Ono or somebody,

[01:08:24] they're now under Toranaga besieging Osaka Castle and that ends the Taiko's line

[01:08:34] and so now we have no further threat to the Toranaga's supremacy.

[01:08:42] And then the third thing would be the fate of John Blackthorne. You're correct,

[01:08:47] he doesn't ever leave Japan. His real name is Adams.

[01:08:53] Yes, his real name was William Adams. We won't go into all the historical detail about him,

[01:09:02] but it is interesting to note that not only does he stay there, but he ends up becoming

[01:09:08] the Tokugawa Ieyasu's primary trade negotiator and so he almost-

[01:09:20] If you were to do- I'm not suggesting they do a follow-on scene, absolutely against it just like

[01:09:25] everybody else. But if you were to, it would be interesting to see scenes where he's the

[01:09:33] official in charge of trade for Toranaga's shogunate and the Portuguese have to go through him

[01:09:41] to negotiate their trade rights because that's actually what ended up happening is

[01:09:46] the historical William Adams was that and he was responsible for negotiating with the

[01:09:51] Portuguese and Spanish and everybody else. So it would be a nice reversal kind of

[01:09:58] of the relationships from when he first got there. So I think those three things would be what I

[01:10:05] point out. Okay, that's fair. I think it would have been nice to have a brief epilogue, but

[01:10:11] you know, we gave it to you right now so thank me.

[01:10:15] Matt E writes in twice and the first time says, great show, but a minor knock. I got left

[01:10:21] with a bad taste when Toranaga says he only kept Blackthorne alive because he made me laugh

[01:10:25] and secondarily to be a distraction to his enemies. He seemed to have saved Toranaga's

[01:10:30] life twice, seemed to genuinely educate him about the hidden Portuguese intentions

[01:10:35] and he was at least a useful pawn. And when did he ever make Toranaga laugh?

[01:10:41] It's appropriate that Blackthorne doesn't rise up as some critical hero of Japan,

[01:10:47] but that one line seemed to consider Blackthorne as simple comic relief.

[01:10:51] Second, Anna slash Mara was amazing. I am curious how her arc generally was different from history,

[01:10:58] the book or the previous mini series. Unlike Game of Thrones, which degraded when going away

[01:11:05] from the source material, my impression is that Shogun was an improvement even as it strayed

[01:11:09] from the source. Thanks for the coverage, Matt E. We kind of discussed the Maraco stuff,

[01:11:14] right? We discussed a lot of the differences. I don't think we talked about the ash,

[01:11:19] the actual history of Jose Cala Gracia. Do you want to go into that a little bit, Nate?

[01:11:25] Well, I'll just say that, you know, for one, obviously, well, I hope it's obvious.

[01:11:30] She didn't actually have a marital affair with our extra marital affair with the historical

[01:11:38] Will Adams. They it's likely that they never would have met. So there's that. But in terms

[01:11:47] of her actual life and death, she died in Osaka in 1600 in the lead up to the conflict that

[01:11:59] culminated with the Sekigahara campaign. And her death did serve the same purpose. Now,

[01:12:06] she didn't dramatically wield an aginata against Ishiro's troops and then threatened suicide

[01:12:14] and then get attacked by ninjas. She was actually killed by and there's some question

[01:12:23] because we don't know exactly what, you know, whether she was killed by her own request or she

[01:12:31] was killed under orders of her husband. But the idea was that she or her husband did not

[01:12:39] want her to be dishonored by being held as a captive. And so, you know, she was she was

[01:12:48] killed. She did not commit suicide because that would have been against her Catholic

[01:12:54] beliefs. And so a servant did it for her. But this was in fact, you know, just like in the

[01:13:02] story, one of those kind of bombshells that blew apart the Ishiro characters, you know,

[01:13:12] attempts to bring everybody together in a coalition against Torunaga. Excuse me, Torunaga. And it

[01:13:18] did allow families to leave Osaka. And once the families had left Osaka, that allowed,

[01:13:27] you know, those clans to choose to side with Torunaga. So I actually think this is one of

[01:13:36] the great things that the book does is it turns it into a novelized dramatic

[01:13:45] version of it. But that function was there in the actual history and values.

[01:13:52] But that's what happens with her. And then she's, you know, known through history is

[01:13:58] this paragon of Catholic belief from the time. Yeah. I think there was even a move to have her

[01:14:07] canon named a saint. I don't I don't know yet canonized. I don't know if it actually

[01:14:11] went through but we'll write to Pope Francis. Pope Francis, if you're listening,

[01:14:16] can you let us know if if Josecaro Gracia was ever

[01:14:20] canonized? He takes all my calls, of course. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Big fan of the pod.

[01:14:23] John, real quick, I noticed that you put a note on Matt's second part of his question,

[01:14:28] which had to do with somebody getting bonked on the head and I'll just quickly respond to Matt

[01:14:33] on air that this happened like 30 years ago. So my friend is fine. But really interesting about

[01:14:39] the fact that brain injury and different Matt talks about different kinds of brain injuries

[01:14:44] and stuff. So all right. Well, thanks, Matt, for both your emails. Shreya M writes in and says,

[01:14:51] I only just started Shogun. I'm a binge watcher and have gotten through the first four episodes

[01:14:55] so far. I was listening to your podcast for the first two episodes, have not been able

[01:15:00] to listen to more yet. So obviously ignore this if it's already been addressed. Two things

[01:15:06] one while imagining the imagery of Osaka, I was described as underwhelming. Sorry. Well,

[01:15:13] the imagery of Osaka was described as underwhelming in the podcast. I think that's from a modern eye

[01:15:19] at this period of time, a view of London or other places in Europe would have looked

[01:15:23] dirty as Blackthorne eventually goes on to say haphazard, et cetera. And perhaps it would

[01:15:28] have been more impressive if they had shown what Europe looked like at the time, because

[01:15:33] it is not the way it looks now. And two, I want to emphasize the role reversal in

[01:15:39] colonialization narratives. I agree with the point about Osaka. I mean, I think Blackthorne

[01:15:48] really, he says in the book, I think like, how can I go back to my wife? She's so dirty.

[01:15:53] Like he's he's learned to take baths. Right. And I think that that's just part of like what

[01:15:57] he learns is there are good things and bad things about my culture. There's good things

[01:16:01] and bad things about your culture. And part of the good things about your culture is that

[01:16:04] you take a freaking bath. As an Indian from India, a person who grew up in the U.S.,

[01:16:13] even though I knew my history books were referring to indigenous peoples in what we now

[01:16:17] call the Americas, I always felt some type of way when I read the words like savages,

[01:16:23] barbaric, uncivilized, et cetera, used to describe the cultures being colonized,

[01:16:28] a word that Blackthorne uses regularly and unintentionally, ironically, when he steps

[01:16:32] foot in Japan to describe people and to describe regions he's just pillaged and plundered

[01:16:38] simply because he doesn't understand them. I love the reversal that the show uses to indicate

[01:16:43] how savage, barbaric and uncivilized the Dutch and English seemed when they arrived.

[01:16:48] The foul-mouthedness of the Englishman, the seeming lack of respect for authority,

[01:16:52] the inability to understand Japanese, the lack of bathing, which I have a whole other paragraph

[01:16:57] about, the inability to express, to suppress emotion and so much more. Yeah, yeah, that's a

[01:17:04] lot of fun. Yeah. And the savagest thing gets a call back in the finale, which is it's good that

[01:17:10] they bring that up now. Right. Most imperialism narratives, regardless of the perspective

[01:17:15] they're meant to be told from makes those that are colonized seem incompetent or like a white

[01:17:20] savior is the only hope. Well, Shogun certainly has some leanings in this direction, the

[01:17:24] positioning of Blackthorn as a savior in some regards. I have to applaud the show for ensuring

[01:17:29] that the Japanese autonomy and competency are still intact. Blackthorn believes he is a master

[01:17:35] manipulator in every situation, but Torunaga remains one step ahead. Yeah. Yeah. That's a

[01:17:42] good point. I want to pause there for just a second and just say, yeah, I think as you get

[01:17:48] through the show, because remember you've this listener, Shreya has only watched the first four

[01:17:54] episodes. I think that even becomes less prevalent, the white savior trope as the series goes on.

[01:18:01] It's a clown in the end. Yeah. They play with that trope. In fact, I think that's one of the

[01:18:08] genius aspects of the writing in the show is that, you know, as we have kind of talked about

[01:18:16] by episode 10, Torunaga is clearly run circles around everybody and including Blackthorn and

[01:18:25] yeah, Blackthorn himself is different. Yeah. Yeah. I also have a separate conversation about

[01:18:33] bathing because it's a sore topic for me. As an Indian person, I have often heard racist

[01:18:38] things from even so-called not racist people about the smell of curry and general BO complaints

[01:18:42] about me, my family and other Indians. In the U S the property value of a household sold by an

[01:18:47] Indian person is less than the household sold by a white person due to the smell. My previous

[01:18:53] landlord attempted to deduct money from my deposit because he thought it smelled like curry.

[01:18:57] It didn't even with regards to other cultures and people of color. Many Americans will often use

[01:19:04] smell and hygiene as an objective reason to discriminate objection, of course being objective

[01:19:09] being in quotes. I've seen, heard and been told about this happening to pretty much every person

[01:19:17] of color I've met. I have to say they've done studies and this is absolutely true that if you

[01:19:23] put white pictures in a house, it will sell for more money. Yeah. They should just sell stock

[01:19:29] photos. Well, yeah, but I think they've even done stuff where we could be less racist,

[01:19:33] but I'm talking about the short-term here guys. Let's get them some more money for their

[01:19:36] house. I think they did stuff where, where people with names on applications, where you're

[01:19:41] submitting without a picture that sure that gender and racial bias happens there too.

[01:19:47] Yeah. I mean, it's biases everywhere, right? Like didn't they do a study where

[01:19:51] they had, there was an opera or sorry, an orchestra that was auditioning violinists

[01:19:56] and they wanted it to be blind because they didn't want to only have male violinists

[01:20:01] there had been a bias previously. And the first round, they still picked almost all the men.

[01:20:07] And when they, when they looked into it, they realized it was the shoes

[01:20:11] because women were wearing heels and they can hear the heels. So then they banned

[01:20:16] shoes on the next one and that worked. And then it was balanced. Interesting. Yeah. So it's so

[01:20:22] innate in yeah. Okay. Anyway. Yep. Yep. I love that the show reminds people that showering

[01:20:30] slash bathing frequently is actually a concept from almost every place except Europe. Europeans

[01:20:36] were dirty, smelly and unhygienic. But still the prevailing stereotype is that white people

[01:20:41] are the cleans want clean ones while people of color are dirty and savages. Yeah, that's a

[01:20:46] shame. That's a I'm sorry you've had that experience. This show does a lot to challenge

[01:20:53] prevailing notions of colonialism and its true reason, impact and purpose. Americans are so

[01:20:59] often taught that everywhere was lawless, godless, even if it was why should that matter?

[01:21:04] But I digress and uncivilized. But this show hopefully helps people see how rich and complex

[01:21:10] these pre existing nations and systems were to tie this back into the image of Osaka.

[01:21:16] This is a huge, huge moment for Blackthorn because up until that moment he underestimated

[01:21:21] Japan. He assumed it was all the things I just said. And his only experience in Japan so

[01:21:26] far was a tiny coastal village. I imagine he assumed that village represented the might of Japan

[01:21:32] and that was the height of its power. Not to mention up until now many European descriptions

[01:21:37] of other nations and peoples were negative, assuming their incompetence undervaluing their

[01:21:41] technology and ways of life and making conquest seem easy in comparison to the tiny

[01:21:47] village he saw and these attitudes towards people around the world outside of Europe.

[01:21:53] The sprawling, clean populated and for the time technologically advanced Vista is above

[01:21:57] and beyond anything he could have comprehended that the Japanese have. I hope that others

[01:22:03] learned at least parts of this message since I think it can help alter the way that Americans

[01:22:07] view themselves within the broader scope of the world. Yeah, I think one of the biggest

[01:22:13] reasons why people react this way is it's people are afraid of feeling stupid and when

[01:22:19] you put them in a situation that's different from the culture or the norms that they grew up in,

[01:22:26] then they're inevitably going to stumble and not do things properly. And that's one of the

[01:22:33] things that's one of the reasons why I say I recommend everyone to travel if you can to

[01:22:38] make that a financial priority, to read and to watch shows like this, to learn as much

[01:22:44] about the rest of the world as you can just to see that it also helps you,

[01:22:49] that feeling of being stupid in other cultures also helps you treat people as less stupid who

[01:22:55] are coming. When people come to the US and maybe they are struggling a little bit with

[01:23:01] their English but imagine they speak at least one other language that you don't speak.

[01:23:07] It's all a matter of perspective. Yeah, exactly. And so we have to be more forgiving

[01:23:13] with each other and with ourselves. And I think if we're more forgiving with ourselves, then

[01:23:17] we are less judgmental of other people too. Yeah, I try to go to each new culture with a

[01:23:24] sense of I want to learn more about you except the British. I really just,

[01:23:29] let me tell you a story. Let me just tell you a story about when I visited England on my

[01:23:33] honeymoon. I'm in London and I'm in what's that park where all the spies have their

[01:23:37] meetings. I'm in that park and I'm walking and there's this older woman walking with

[01:23:44] a man, arm in arm and she drops a five pound bill out her pocket and I pick it up and I try

[01:23:51] to hand it to her. I'm like, excuse me ma'am, you dropped this. She ignores me. And so

[01:23:58] that only made me judge the British more. And I bought my wife ice cream with that

[01:24:02] five quid bill later. But that's one person because I've also been- No, it's all of England.

[01:24:08] No, you are wrong. It's Blackhorn. Because I've also been, I've been in lots of places where

[01:24:13] I have suitcases that are too big for myself because I'm an overpacker and it's one of my

[01:24:17] toxic traits. And I can see who helps me carry it up stairs in the metro and things

[01:24:24] like that. And Londoners, they'll often, they just, they take it, walk along beside me and

[01:24:28] deposit it next to me without saying anything. Same thing happens in New York, which-

[01:24:33] It does happen in New York.

[01:24:35] Which people point out there's a difference between being nice and being kind. So maybe

[01:24:39] New Yorkers aren't nice but they're kind in ways like that.

[01:24:42] Being a West Coast to East Coast transplant, I've discovered that very much. And on the West

[01:24:47] Coast, everybody is nice. But over here on the East Coast, everyone's more kind in general.

[01:24:52] I would say the same comparison with the South versus New York City. It's kind of

[01:24:58] a similar thing.

[01:24:59] See, here we go. We're talking about a fictional Shogun show and we're deconstructing-

[01:25:03] And we're just making sure that we're continuing to be ethnocentrist here.

[01:25:08] Right? We're just reinforcing it.

[01:25:09] We're talking about our own experiences. Yeah, we should let Nate talk more about

[01:25:13] the niceness and kindness of Japan.

[01:25:15] Well, so I mean, there's a couple of things that I want to directly respond

[01:25:19] in this excellent feedback. And I sincerely hope that Shreya continues watching the show

[01:25:30] and would love to hear more of her observations. Hopefully she can pop

[01:25:35] onto the Discord or something and share as she does because I think she points out-

[01:25:40] And I suppose I'm assuming that she's female and I shouldn't.

[01:25:47] But anyway, what I would say directly to the idea of traveling that you brought up,

[01:25:56] Alicia, is for me, I mean, I went into my experience. My first time outside the US was

[01:26:05] going to Japan as an exchange student. And it was something that obviously I'd prepared for.

[01:26:10] I had spent a year studying the language. I had spent most of my life since the age of

[01:26:19] four or five wanting to go to Japan and experience the culture.

[01:26:24] I may have been a weeb before the word weeb was even invented,

[01:26:30] if I'm perfectly honest. But I still got there and was not prepared for what was different

[01:26:38] because you can't imagine all the things that you think you're going to experience

[01:26:46] are not the things that you experience in daily life. And I think that's part of the

[01:26:52] value of traveling is that you get into, it's not about, oh, can I eat this food?

[01:26:58] Or whatever. It's the, can I navigate the metro or the subway system?

[01:27:03] Do I know what the protocols are for finding a restroom and stuff like that?

[01:27:16] There were so many experiences that I had as a student in Japan where my assumptions of what

[01:27:23] the best was, which of course was, well, everything American's the best because when

[01:27:28] you grow up in America, that's what you're told. So many of those assumptions were challenged.

[01:27:35] And often I would see what the Japanese system was for a certain thing.

[01:27:43] And it was like, wait a minute, the way they do it is better.

[01:27:48] And that's not the case in all things. And I don't want to sound like

[01:27:51] I think Japan is perfect or anything. They have their problems everywhere. But I think

[01:27:57] that's the value in travel and in experiencing different cultures is that you see that your

[01:28:05] world that you grew up in is not only not the only one, but it's not necessarily

[01:28:12] the best. There are good things in other places too. And I've been in many countries since then

[01:28:18] and can say the same about all of those places. But to go, if I can just go back to the

[01:28:26] points that Shreya makes here.

[01:28:30] Can I interject really quick, Nate? Yeah, absolutely.

[01:28:33] I heard this story from a friend who had been traveling in Japan a number of years ago

[01:28:38] on the subway and there was a person, I can't remember, the person had some extra needs.

[01:28:43] I can't remember if they were elderly or if it was a physical disability, but the conductor

[01:28:48] on the platform where they were boarding the station called ahead to the conductor five or

[01:28:52] six stations down where they were getting off. So then when that person got off, there was somebody

[01:28:56] there to assist them off. That's incredible to me.

[01:29:01] There's institutional helpfulness in Japanese culture for sure.

[01:29:05] Mind blowing compared to the New York City subway.

[01:29:10] So that sort of thing is wonderful.

[01:29:13] They help you onto the track in the New York City subway.

[01:29:16] Yeah, what? Sorry?

[01:29:17] They help you onto the track in the New York City subway.

[01:29:19] They'll push you in.

[01:29:26] I mean, that sort of thing is true and that's wonderful. There's also things

[01:29:31] like it's so minor that I almost hesitate to bring it up, but there's a for foreigners who

[01:29:41] spend extended time in Japan, there's a long time complaint of the fact that every time

[01:29:50] you eat with a new Japanese person, they have to compliment the fact that you can use chopsticks.

[01:29:56] It's almost a trope, right? It is like, oh, you're so good with

[01:30:05] Wachiji-jouzu desu ne.

[01:30:07] Abby will know exactly what I'm talking about.

[01:30:11] Special shout out to Abby too and Davy Mack for who both live in Japan,

[01:30:16] who are both non-Japanese living in Japan.

[01:30:19] So you get this and by the time you've been there a while, you get this so much and it's like,

[01:30:24] well, of course I can use chopsticks. What do you mean?

[01:30:28] I use chopsticks at the Chinese restaurant back home. Why is this?

[01:30:31] It's like you tie your shoes so well. So impressive.

[01:30:36] With my close friends, I would reply back things like, you use a fork so well.

[01:30:42] Yeah, exactly.

[01:30:43] That's amazing, right? So it's this little minor thing, but it becomes an annoyance and it comes

[01:30:52] from this perception of particularly Westerners of not being familiar with Japanese culture

[01:31:00] or Asian culture, being able to use chopsticks and whatever.

[01:31:04] I mean, there's a warranted factor that my mother, bless her, still can't use chopsticks.

[01:31:13] She's in her 60s. So for an older generation, it's probably more true than it is for-

[01:31:23] My parents taught me how to use chopsticks as a kid, but they love Chinese food.

[01:31:26] So when I started dating my wife, she was very good at using chopsticks and I felt judged,

[01:31:32] so I just taught myself to use chopsticks and now I still can.

[01:31:38] But what it did, at least for me, like, yeah, it was annoying, but it made me realize, okay,

[01:31:46] so I'm walking into this culture where they have a perception of me based off of my

[01:31:51] ethnicity, nationality, background and whatever, and it's really innocuous.

[01:31:57] But if it's annoying me this much, how much worse is it for- I mean, some of these

[01:32:05] horrible things that Shreya is describing here, right? And it's like, that was my first thing.

[01:32:11] Oh, okay, I get this as a concept because if I'm feeling this emotional about somebody

[01:32:19] complimenting me on my chopsticks but feeling that it's condescending,

[01:32:25] then how much worse is it when it's overt, like not being,

[01:32:28] you know, like being charged extra in your apartment and something like that.

[01:32:33] That's disgusting by the way that that happened to you.

[01:32:35] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, I mean, I don't want to dwell too much longer on it,

[01:32:45] but she makes some- or Shreya makes some absolutely wonderful points

[01:32:50] that are important and that as an educator, one of the things that I try to do in my class

[01:32:57] is humanize the culture of Japan or Asia, whichever, you know, whatever course I'm teaching

[01:33:05] and have them see the historical figures and the culture in general as, you know,

[01:33:12] three-dimensional instead of just two-dimensional media images so that they can then come through.

[01:33:20] So, you know, we talk about the fact that samurai aren't this kind of-

[01:33:26] and this was one of the great things about the show is that it showed,

[01:33:29] you know, you've got Yabushige who's obviously a high-ranking samurai enough

[01:33:34] that he owns a whole province, but he's shifty and he's not loyal and he's, you know,

[01:33:41] not this stereotype that we see in, you know, maybe in anime or manga or whatever of the samurai.

[01:33:49] So I think these are great points that Shreya brings.

[01:33:53] Absolutely. Well, guys, I got to head out because I've got to head on to my next thing,

[01:33:58] but I know that David and Alicia are going to be happy to finish out the feedback with you, Nate.

[01:34:07] So yeah, we'll finish that up and then we'll do our outro. I know we've-

[01:34:12] in good true lorehounds fashion, we tried to schedule this for a window of time and we've

[01:34:18] completely blown that window of time as we will want to do. John, thank you so much for

[01:34:23] all your help and partnership with this. It's just been such a pleasure to be with

[01:34:27] you and Alicia for this podcast. Well, thank you and thank you, Nate, for being here and

[01:34:34] sharing your expertise with us. We have a lot of armchair experts around the lorehounds,

[01:34:38] but it's rare that we have a real expert. Well, you know, thank you for having me and

[01:34:44] it was a pleasure talking with you, John, and I hope to keep interacting on the Discord.

[01:34:50] Of course. And, you know,

[01:34:52] not that I don't study Westeros, but I will be there as a fan.

[01:34:58] Yes. Absolutely.

[01:35:00] Looking forward to it.

[01:35:01] All right, John, thanks. Talk to you soon.

[01:35:03] Bye.

[01:35:04] All right. So our last up email is Kyle M and Kyle says,

[01:35:09] Blackthorn's relationship to death and to self has really evolved over the course of his arc.

[01:35:14] When he comes to Toranaga to beg him to stop killing villagers in his effort to find

[01:35:19] the arsonists who set fire to their Rasmus, he knew damn well who they were. This is all

[01:35:23] manipulation. He attempts a brand new strategy to threaten to stab himself in his own belly,

[01:35:31] clearly drawing inspiration from his love of Mariko. He declares that he will die

[01:35:37] in protest of Toranaga's actions in the village. He admits here that he has been

[01:35:42] the enemy among them all along using the Japanese word for it,

[01:35:47] a call back to the first two installments of the series, pursuing his own selfish aims and

[01:35:51] intending to exploit them. I think we talked about this earlier, the arc that Blackthorn was

[01:35:56] ultimately on and that he finally, and this scene in the book comes up way earlier. And

[01:36:04] on the official podcast, they, was it the official? Again, I can't forget there was a

[01:36:08] conversation with the show runners and they talked about holding the scene because it just

[01:36:13] would have felt very weird earlier on. That was on the official podcast,

[01:36:16] but then that was, there was kind of a spoiler on the official podcast because then I knew,

[01:36:20] well, at some point in the series he's going to attempt something.

[01:36:22] It's going to show up. Yeah. And it just naturally fell perfectly into that moment.

[01:36:28] And I thought that it was just an amazing placement and a beautiful, when art is

[01:36:34] unfolding in this way, and then suddenly something naturally falls into place where

[01:36:38] you're like, oh, I don't know how to deal with this. It really is a mark of,

[01:36:43] that creativity is happening, real creativity is happening here.

[01:36:46] If I may just real quickly in the book, not only does it show up earlier, but it's a much

[01:36:54] different context. Tornaug is not involved and it's a condition for, well, I guess I don't want

[01:37:04] to ruin the book for people, but it's a condition for something that is ongoing

[01:37:10] rather than having anything to do with destruction of ship or whatever.

[01:37:15] And I was very glad when they didn't do it. So I was like, okay, we don't have to worry

[01:37:24] about that Blackthorne spook thing. And then it shows up here, but I didn't have a problem

[01:37:30] with it because it's at the end of Blackthorne's arc. He's showing us how he's changed. It's not

[01:37:38] just stuck in the middle. And yeah, so agree everything with everything you two said. I just

[01:37:46] wanted to point out that it was so weird in the book and the 1980s, how it shows up.

[01:37:55] And the skill of the writers here was excellent in, okay, let's bring it back in, but in a

[01:38:04] place where it does, it does have that natural feel and it does tell us something about him.

[01:38:09] Pete Slauson All right, carrying on. Now he wants to use his death to protest the further harm of

[01:38:13] the good – yeah, sorry, I'm carrying on here. Now that he wants to use his death to protest

[01:38:16] further harm to the good people of the village, he's seen that death can be meaningful

[01:38:20] and he embraces that his life is no more important than those of his fellow community

[01:38:26] members. Tornaug stops him. This was all just a test of his commitment. And by the end of

[01:38:31] the episode, Blackthorn and Fujisama seem to emerge aligned in their view of death as well,

[01:38:37] at least as it relates to grief and loss. Something we haven't talked at all about this

[01:38:42] podcast is Fujisama. Our dear and beloved Fujisama, an unexpected fan favorite. She was

[01:38:51] so lovely and that scene of them all on the boat, on the water together was so, so moving.

[01:38:57] Anyone who's – not anyone, just the – we all are going to experience loss and grief in our life

[01:39:03] and the way that they showed us how a situation like that can unfold and how you can – sorry,

[01:39:12] getting a little boofed here – reach across to somebody else. We oftentimes feel alone and

[01:39:17] isolated in our emotions and in this moment, they could be together and that was just

[01:39:21] gorgeous. Yeah. No, I said before, kind of half jokingly but half not that the only person

[01:39:29] I would be upset about dying would be her. So I'm very happy with how she wound up. But I do

[01:39:35] have the idea that she had a different ending in the book? Do we want to say anything

[01:39:42] relative to – Okay, maybe not. Yeah. But maybe – I feel like she got a better ending.

[01:39:48] I'm going to be honest because she's not as much of a character in the book that I honestly don't

[01:39:57] remember. I think I know what happens and I think she – let's just say she gets her wish

[01:40:06] initially, I think. But I could very well be wrong.

[01:40:10] Right. That's the idea that I had. Yeah. But I'm so glad that they – they just ended

[01:40:15] everyone in the perfect place and I'm so glad that she gets some peace. She's not forced to

[01:40:22] into any sort of relationship. She can just spend her days in quiet contemplation and living.

[01:40:31] Wrapping up this email, they have a moving conversation which seems entirely at peace,

[01:40:36] having found a new purpose as a nun, Fujisama best nun, Blackthorn says in his broken

[01:40:42] Japanese, his last act of kindness towards her before she goes is to take her out for the boat

[01:40:47] ride, release the remains of the loved ones together. They pour their ashes out and then

[01:40:52] we have the rosary which is lovely. There's a beautiful call back to the moment before her

[01:40:57] son died as well. Fuji comforts her friend as he hesitates to drop the symbol of his love

[01:41:02] into the sea saying, let your hands be the last to hold her, echoing Mariko's words to her

[01:41:08] in her life's worst moment. I think this is where the show – we talked a lot about a lot of this

[01:41:14] in True Detective where the show is rhyming. Right. It's taking couplets, visual and dialogue

[01:41:22] and character moments and then rhyming them later on. I think Nate, you mentioned that too

[01:41:26] where we have some physical placement that's similar from episode to episode. Again,

[01:41:33] going to the craftsmanship and feeling those where they're not just cheap,

[01:41:37] oh turnabout, hey the character ended up in the same place. These are actually really beautiful

[01:41:41] moments that create the circle of life vibe of things. Right. Well, I think – go ahead,

[01:41:49] any final thoughts? Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, I just wanted to say that on the physical location

[01:41:56] rhyming, I won't go into all of it because there's so much but there's certain places where –

[01:42:06] the beach in Ajiro is when you look at – it's where Buntero was about to cut off

[01:42:15] Blackthorn's head and then in the final episode, the final scene even, it's where he's

[01:42:20] helping pull Blackthorn's ship up onto the beach and so forth. So there's a lot of those

[01:42:26] that are so good. Right. And in terms of rhyming too, we mentioned it briefly in the previous

[01:42:33] episode but apparently where they poured out the ashes is where James Clavels, the writer

[01:42:38] of the book's ashes were actually poured out the same bay. That's amazing. Yeah, that's

[01:42:44] wild. So, well, I think we should wrap it up here. I know we could go on for a good hour or more

[01:42:51] easily. Nate, thank you again for willing to jump on. Thank you so much for all of your –

[01:42:55] Yeah, thank you very much for having me. Great insights and so glad that you were able to

[01:42:59] find us and a big warm welcome. Alicia, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for

[01:43:05] everything this season. Yes, very glad to be here and just I think around the same time

[01:43:12] that this is coming out, there's a project that I have long been teasing or at least for a few

[01:43:18] weeks been teasing publicly. The Star Wars Complete Cannon Timeline podcast will release

[01:43:23] its first episode just in time for May the 4th. So hope you guys can check it out.

[01:43:28] Super. So we'll go ahead and wrap it up here. I'll do a separate outro and everyone can go

[01:43:34] up about your days and thanks everyone. We'll see you on the next one. Well, that was a

[01:43:43] really great conversation. Thanks everyone for sticking around. Thank you, Nate. Thank you,

[01:43:47] Alicia. Thank you, John. Special thanks to Abby and Davy Mack as well for all of your great

[01:43:51] input over the season. Just a few quick notes before we wrap it up for today.

[01:43:58] Remember if you're interested in supporting the community and you want to help us out doing

[01:44:04] all the different projects and podcasts that we've got going on, check us out on

[01:44:09] Supercast or Patreon. Supercast is our new preferred platform. It gives us a lot more tools.

[01:44:17] It's less cost to us as well and yeah, we make sure that everybody that we participate

[01:44:23] and work with gets to share in the benefits of what we're doing here.

[01:44:28] I want to just really quick while I'm at it to talk about Supercast.

[01:44:33] As you may know, we're going to be covering House of the Dragon full time

[01:44:37] and we've come up with a new way to offer ad free versions that are also early access as well as

[01:44:47] the show guide, which is going to be subscriber only. We're calling this a season's pass

[01:44:54] and we can do this on Supercast. We can create a dedicated feed that offers all this stuff

[01:45:01] and that is charged only once. You don't actually have to subscribe on a recurring basis and then

[01:45:07] remember to cancel that. You can buy for 10 bucks a pass to the entire season of

[01:45:14] House of the Dragon. We're doing season one recap right now. We're starting that now

[01:45:19] and then once season two starts, we'll be doing weekly scene by scene, episode by episode

[01:45:25] coverage. If that's something that interests you, then definitely check that out. We just

[01:45:31] released our first season one recap episode. There's a link in the show notes of that.

[01:45:37] If you're interested, you can go there. 10 bucks, you get forever coverage. It's just

[01:45:41] a one-time deal and you get the early access and ad free. I also want to talk about the

[01:45:47] John along with Aaron and Brian8063 have been pouring themselves into creating this amazing

[01:45:55] show guide. We're using the Notion platform. If you were around for True Detective or Shogun,

[01:46:02] we had show guides for both of those titles. They have gone to town on this. There's a

[01:46:10] bestiary for the dragons. There's location information about all the different places

[01:46:15] as well as character guides. If you go on to say, Raniera, you can look at her sheet

[01:46:21] and it's got all of our children. If you click on those, you'll go to the bio page about them

[01:46:25] as well. You can link out to the actors. It's a really amazing resource. It's also

[01:46:31] really great if your second screening the show, you can have this up on your phone

[01:46:35] and you can quickly find characters or places that you're like, hey, wait, who is that?

[01:46:41] Where am I seeing this or how does this relate to anything else? Another cool feature is that it's

[01:46:47] season one only. You can get all of the basic information you need without worrying about

[01:46:54] getting spoiled because the internet is just full of information since a lot of this is coming

[01:46:58] from histories that have already been written. If that show guide and the, hey, I just want

[01:47:05] to throw some support. I don't want to do the whole subscription thing. Consider the

[01:47:10] season pass because we think it's a really good option. All right, so enough of all of that.

[01:47:15] Quick shout out to all of our affiliates. We've got Radioactive Ramblings. That's Chase and

[01:47:22] Aaron. They just finished up on Fallout. They are now going to be covering, I believe,

[01:47:28] Invincible and then they're going to move on to The Boys this June. So that's going to be

[01:47:32] really great. Make sure to check them out. Rings and Rituals just dropped a new episode.

[01:47:37] Marilyn Arpaquilla and Dr. Sarah Brown are examining the rich world of ritual

[01:47:44] and history using season one of Rings of Power as a lens to examine wider questions about

[01:47:52] ritual. It's a fascinating conversation, really good stuff. Check that out as well.

[01:47:58] Will Ship Dust, Alicia has got Beacon 23 season two running right now.

[01:48:03] And Steve and Anthony over on Properly Howard movie reviews are in the middle of their felonies

[01:48:09] and fugazi seasons. They just dropped Tango and Cash and next up is Pulp Fiction.

[01:48:16] For us, we've got some Doctor Who coming up. We've got some X-Men 97 coming up.

[01:48:22] We've got some more Silmarillion stories coming out as well. And then we're staring

[01:48:27] down the barrel of June where we've got the Acolyte, House of the Dragon and then

[01:48:33] The Bear at the end of the summer. So a lot of content headed our way. It's a busy season

[01:48:40] this year. Quick shout out to our Discord server boosters. Opus the Machine, Narles,

[01:48:47] Aaron Kay, Tiller the Thriller, Dork of the Ninjas and Doof 71. Thank you all so very much

[01:48:51] for supporting our community, making sure that our server has extra bells and whistles.

[01:48:56] And again, visit us on our Discord. We've got a great welcoming community, lots of great

[01:49:02] conversations happening there. It's a fun group. It's where we can sort of have that virtual water

[01:49:07] cooler to talk about the shows and books and movies that we love. To our Loremaster subscribers,

[01:49:14] these are our top tier subscribers. They really make sure that we've got the resources

[01:49:20] we need as a podcast and as a community to keep on going. So we like to give them a

[01:49:24] shout out every episode. Summarshan, Mark H, Michael G, Michelle E, David W, Brian P, Nick W,

[01:49:33] SC, Peter OH, Bettina W, Adam S, Nancy M, Doof 71, Brian8063, Frederick H, Sarah L, Gareth C,

[01:49:43] Eric F, Matthew M, Sarah M, DJ Miwa, Andra B, Kwong Niu, Dead Eye Jedi Bob, Nathan T,

[01:49:51] Alex V, Aaron T, Sub Zero, Aaron K, Dally V 21, Mothership 61, Narls, and forever last but

[01:50:00] never least, Adrienne. Thank you all so very much for your ongoing and continued support.

[01:50:06] We couldn't do it without you. If you're not a subscriber, but you're just listening on the

[01:50:11] public feeds, thanks for listening. It means a lot. We really pay attention to how we're

[01:50:15] doing and it's just great that we have such a fun and welcoming community. So

[01:50:22] I think that about wraps it up for us for Shogun coverage. It's been great. Thank you,

[01:50:26] everyone, and we'll see you on the next podcast.

[01:50:45] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any

[01:50:49] employers or other entities. Thanks for listening.