Silmarillion Stories - E13 - Men

[00:00:00] Hey Listeners, Aaron here. If you're watching Fallout on Amazon Prime Video, then we have

[00:00:10] just the podcast for you. Radioactive Ramblings has joined the Lorehounds Network. We are

[00:00:15] going to be breaking down the show episode by episode, making far-fetched theories and

[00:00:19] dropping some tidbits of lore. If you want to hear us ramble, tune into Radioactive

[00:00:23] Ramblings, linked in the show notes. We hope to have you join us in the wasteland.

[00:00:30] Intro Music

[00:00:49] Welcome to Silmarillion Stories. We're the Lorehounds, your guides to Tolkien's world of Middle-earth.

[00:00:54] I'm Jon and this is our podcast for Of Men, the 13th portion of The Silmarillion. In this

[00:01:01] episode we're going to be discussing the introduction of a new faction in Middle-earth.

[00:01:06] Now if you want to get in on the Tolkien talk, send an email to lotr at thelorehounds.com

[00:01:11] or visit our website where we have a contact form or use the Nifty Voicemail feature.

[00:01:16] We've got a Discord server too and you can find the link below where we have

[00:01:20] a fun and active community with a dedicated Tolkien channel and channels for all the other

[00:01:25] shows we're covering. Now stick around to the end of the podcast for programming notes

[00:01:28] for the rest of April, like Shogun and Earthsea. One more note, if you want to

[00:01:34] support us directly, please head to patreon.com slash the Lorehounds or check these show

[00:01:39] notes for a link to Supercast. It's very similar and has the same pricing, but it's

[00:01:44] a little bit more geared towards podcasting. For as little as three bucks a month,

[00:01:48] you can get ad-free and early access to every episode plus access to Shire Side Chats

[00:01:53] and Second Breakfast. Shire Side Chats, of course, is where I will be breaking down

[00:01:58] the letters of J.R.R. Tolkien one by one. Alright, so you may notice that I'm the

[00:02:04] only one in this intro today and that's unusual because Silmarillion Stories has

[00:02:10] been a joint effort between me and David since the beginning. However, I think David

[00:02:18] is going into the West and we are going to be... Well, OK, not into the West. He's

[00:02:24] not dead. I hope not. Not yet. But he's going to be working on some other projects

[00:02:28] still on the Lorehounds. Still, you know, he's got a lot of things cooking.

[00:02:32] He's working on a lot of different programming. We're still, of course,

[00:02:36] doing the main show together and things like that and plenty of side

[00:02:39] projects. But just for this project, we are moving this into a rotating guest

[00:02:43] format. So you've already heard her voice. Guess who's with me this first

[00:02:49] time? A familiar voice, Marilyn Arpukila, our favorite Tolkien scholar.

[00:02:54] Marilyn, how you doing? I'm fine, John, and it's great to be back and hello

[00:02:59] everybody. My Govanin. Thanks for being here, Marilyn. It's always fun to talk

[00:03:05] Tolkien with you. So you are a Tolkien veteran, the Silmarillion

[00:03:11] veteran. We've done your intro to the Silmarillion many times. Just if

[00:03:16] you want her botifieds, her email... Sorry, her website is in the show notes and

[00:03:21] I'm sure you've seen her on our Discord server chatting away about all

[00:03:25] the intricacies of Tolkien. You can also find her podcast Rings and

[00:03:30] Rituals on its own feed and you can find that link in the show notes as

[00:03:33] well. In there, Marilyn is working with Dr. Sarah Brown who's also on the

[00:03:38] Prancing Pony podcast to break down the Rings of Power season one, one episode

[00:03:44] at a time through the lens of ritual. Do you want to give a pitch for that,

[00:03:47] Marilyn, real quick? Yeah, well you've summed it up pretty well. We're having

[00:03:51] a great time and we're getting some good response which is nice. It's just

[00:03:55] it's nice to look at the show on its own merits. I mean that, you know,

[00:04:01] when you're having adaptation of something as below it is Tolkien,

[00:04:04] you're gonna run into a lot of things that just focus on that. And I wanted to

[00:04:11] look at ritual because I felt it was a really important aspect of the show.

[00:04:16] Mm-hmm. And at the same time, I wanted to look at the communities

[00:04:23] that they were constructing on their own terms by looking at what are the

[00:04:28] rituals that Paine and McKay created for them. Right. And it's brought out a

[00:04:34] lot of really interesting stuff actually. I mean who knew that orcs had

[00:04:38] rituals, right? Right. So it's centered around the series but we also

[00:04:45] sometimes talk about, you know, rituals in our own lives or other connections

[00:04:50] with Tolkien and so forth. And you and I did a podcast on the music which was

[00:04:59] fun. I'm still looking for someone to help me with world building and

[00:05:02] ritual as a concept. Interesting. We'll see if that happens or not. Interesting. Well maybe I'll hop in again. You'd be welcome. We'll see. You'd be welcome.

[00:05:10] Well anyway, I don't know when you're putting out the, I still have to edit it, but

[00:05:14] I don't know when you're putting out the music interview so you'll have to

[00:05:18] subscribe to her feed to get that interview because we're not gonna tell

[00:05:22] you when it's gonna be in there. Just have to, you know, watch that space.

[00:05:27] All right, so today we're talking about of men. You know just to start off.

[00:05:36] Men are weak. The race of men is failing. Now there's plenty of issues with

[00:05:43] that statement and many have characterized that as a very out-of-

[00:05:46] character statement that Peter Jackson added to the movies that is not

[00:05:50] present in the books, but it's a fun quote so I put it in anyway. Well I guess

[00:05:57] the women are all just fine then. The women are all just fine. Why don't we

[00:06:01] talk about that first before we even dive into the story? We talk a lot

[00:06:04] about men with Tolkien. Now men is what Tolkien calls this whole race.

[00:06:10] That's right, right? Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. He uses it as an inclusive noun. Do you know why he chose to do that instead of use

[00:06:18] human? I think it's because it's part of the type of literary tradition that he

[00:06:26] was writing in. If you think about the sagas or the Eddas or Gawain and the

[00:06:35] Green Knight, you know all the different sources, the mythologies and

[00:06:39] so on, women just don't get featured unless they're truly exceptional but

[00:06:46] the outer world of community was men and male in most of the stories he was

[00:06:51] reading. Right. And to call them men implies that it's the men who are the

[00:06:58] movers and the shakers and this is what human beings are all about, which

[00:07:02] you know maybe was true maybe wasn't true. It all depends on what you mean

[00:07:07] by quote-unquote important. Certainly we wouldn't have a story if we didn't

[00:07:12] have Lúthien Tannúvio. Absolutely. And there are other examples so there's

[00:07:20] there are whole books written about Tolkien and women and you'll get a

[00:07:23] whole bunches of different perspectives and they extend that to his

[00:07:28] life and claim that you know well you know he grew up with his brothers

[00:07:31] and he didn't have his mother and he didn't have any women in his life

[00:07:34] yada yada until he met Edith and fell madly in love and then relegated

[00:07:38] to you know home and family and whatnot. I think that's a unnuanced look. I

[00:07:45] think there and there have been books more recently written by particularly

[00:07:49] one called Perilous and Fair and I'm blanking on the names of the editors

[00:07:54] but it's a collection of essays that really look at this issue more

[00:07:59] closely but I think for him it was a literary convention, it was a social

[00:08:03] convention. I don't know if he considered human to be a more modern term.

[00:08:09] I'm not even sure that this kind of discussion would have been an issue

[00:08:15] even in his own lifetime. I mean he died what in 73 I think 72 and the

[00:08:21] women's move, the second wave so-called of the women's move was just

[00:08:25] getting started at that point. Right yeah it's interesting I mean the fact

[00:08:29] that he even goes to the lengths of saying mannish instead of human when

[00:08:32] describing a woman. That is interesting isn't it? It's a very interesting choice

[00:08:37] and I'm not sure we're gonna be able to rationalize it tonight. I'm not gonna

[00:08:41] try I just call him human that's it. Right but tonight we're talking about

[00:08:46] the race of men as Tolkien calls them. I promise that we're not going to

[00:08:51] start calling women in this in the real world men but in this podcast the

[00:08:57] women of Tolkien's world are the race of men, they're mannish. So this is much

[00:09:03] more of a lore based chapter than a story and we're also of course told

[00:09:07] upfront men are only a small part of the story that really centers around

[00:09:11] the Noldor. Right right and you know around elves generally this is all

[00:09:18] very much told from an elders perspective and it's very important to

[00:09:21] keep that in mind while you're reading any chapter of it but

[00:09:24] particularly you know chapters that talk about races other than elves like

[00:09:29] dwarves, like humans. Right because Tolkien founded the found footage

[00:09:34] genre you know this idea that you're he's translating a book of

[00:09:39] history from this other universe and so the Lord of the Rings is the

[00:09:45] translations of the Red Book and the writings of you know Bilbo and Frodo

[00:09:50] and Sam eventually. Yeah he really liked the whole concept of frame narrative.

[00:09:55] Mm-hmm and here we have Noldor writings. Exactly exactly although I'm

[00:10:04] sure that they spoke to some Telleri and some oh good Lord I'm gonna

[00:10:10] forget the other name. Oh the Vanyar. Tolkien scholar the Vanyar thank you. Well yeah I mean the

[00:10:17] Noldor aren't known for being too open-minded at least in their early days

[00:10:20] but later on they soften up you know Elrond's a pretty nice guy which

[00:10:25] is actually it's funny you know I played the Elrond quote up front in

[00:10:29] the movies he's pretty he's pretty dark he's pretty serious and not

[00:10:35] very joyful almost ever you know he raises an eyebrow at Pippin and

[00:10:39] Merry but that's about it. In the books he's much more you know it's the

[00:10:43] last homely house go to Elrond's and party hearty you know let's go and

[00:10:46] have a great time. Moreover he's Aragorn's foster father. Right right. He

[00:10:53] loves him I mean it's very clear from the beginning

[00:10:55] Aragorn of course in the books is not somebody who's lost his way and trying

[00:11:01] to find himself and come to terms with his ancestral history he knows

[00:11:05] who he is knows the role that he has to play and has accepted that a

[00:11:10] long time ago. I think he would have done that even if Arwen hadn't been

[00:11:14] part of the equation. Right. Because I have a hard time picturing Arthur

[00:11:19] saying well you know actually I kind of like to give Excalibur back.

[00:11:23] Yeah. You know Aragorn is the Arthur Arthurian figure in Lord of the Rings.

[00:11:29] And I understand why Peter Jackson did it in the movie to give a

[00:11:34] narrative arc. Yeah yeah narrative arc whatever. I think I think Aragorn had

[00:11:40] plenty of a narrative arc in the series. Right. Well we don't need to debate it

[00:11:46] tonight because right now we are backing up thousands upon thousands of

[00:11:51] years back to the first stage. The Valar have decided to take a hands-off

[00:11:56] approach in Middle-earth except for Ulmo of course sending messages men

[00:12:02] can only get the vibe of within the water and the Noldor apparently are

[00:12:07] the only ones doing anything about Morgoth. Well at least that's what it looks

[00:12:12] like. The fact that there were no Valar that came to guide men in Hildórien or

[00:12:23] to summon them to dwell in Valinor resulted in the fact that humans just

[00:12:29] really didn't know about the Valar at all or else they knew what little

[00:12:33] they learned from the so-called dark elves who never went to Valinor, never

[00:12:38] saw the light of the trees. Right the elves that trusted the Valar the least.

[00:12:42] Right right because you know why should we go and to be perfectly honest I

[00:12:47] think part of it too is that the Valar were kind of shocked by what

[00:12:52] happened in the outcome of when after they quote unquote invited these elves

[00:12:58] to come to Valinor and be there and you know look how that turned out for

[00:13:03] the Noldor at any rate. And Ulmo really was the only one who took thought

[00:13:10] for them and helped with councils and you know he was the one who helped to

[00:13:16] or eventually save Gondolin and the father of Eirendil and all the rest of that.

[00:13:22] Spoilers. That's all right there's not many spoilers in the

[00:13:28] Silmarillion he kind of tells you up front what's gonna happen. Yes. But I

[00:13:31] mean it's interesting to me that the Valar go through this cycle of action

[00:13:40] and inaction where they kind of let issues fester and eventually they have

[00:13:47] to go take a hand at it. Well I suppose if you're eternal beings you know time

[00:13:53] has a much a little different meaning to you. Sure sure it's the Elrondoran

[00:13:58] situation right except it's infinite beings and yeah beings that have the

[00:14:05] lifespan of Arda. Yeah but I find it interesting that in the cases of both

[00:14:11] the children of Uluwatar, the elves and the humans they loved the water. So you

[00:14:17] have this sentence that you know Ulmo was sending messages to

[00:14:24] the humans through the waters but as Tolkien wrote they have not skill

[00:14:30] in such matters and still less had they in those days before they had

[00:14:34] mingled with the elves. Therefore they loved the waters and their hearts

[00:14:38] were stirred but they understood not the messages and this takes us right

[00:14:44] back to the very first chapter of the Silmarillion in which he wrote and it

[00:14:50] is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the music

[00:14:55] of the Ainur more than any other substance else that is in this earth

[00:14:59] and many of the children of Uluwatar harken still unsated to the

[00:15:03] voices of the sea and yet know not for what they listen. That was the sentence

[00:15:09] the very first time I ever picked up this book in 1977 and felt rather

[00:15:14] bewildered but I read that sentence and I said okay I know exactly what

[00:15:20] he's talking about I'll just keep going because clearly he knows something

[00:15:26] here about there's something here so all the children react to this sound

[00:15:31] but some of them had more skill in the matter than others and yet even the

[00:15:35] elves are listening still unsated and yet not know not for what they're

[00:15:40] listening so I don't know why they're making this massive distinction

[00:15:43] between the elves and the humans and in fact I can't remember if Uluwamal ever talks

[00:15:52] directly to an elf but he does to a human. Right, right with Gondolin. Yeah

[00:16:01] I guess he does he does talk directly to Turugan at some point. He's just big on

[00:16:08] the Gondolin communications that's this is the worldwide Gondolin web. But to

[00:16:14] your point about the Valar seeming to you know have inaction for long

[00:16:19] periods of time yes it sounds that way they set behind their mountains at

[00:16:22] peace they gave light to Middle-earth and so okay fine you got the light

[00:16:26] you're on your own so it really does sound as though they're brushing them

[00:16:31] off but they do have their reasons you know they seen the assault upon the

[00:16:38] moon and the Sun by Morgoth and they feared what he might achieve and so

[00:16:48] there this time there's enough of the children running around that they

[00:16:52] don't want to make a war upon Morgoth because they remembered you know the

[00:16:57] destruction that happened from that but they also remembered as it says the

[00:17:01] ruin of Almaren which was the island with the two lamps way back in the

[00:17:05] beginning and they resolved that they like should not befall Velinor and

[00:17:12] frankly I don't see that that's all that different from what Turugan did

[00:17:16] sure it's but it's also like just because my kids made a mess doesn't mean

[00:17:23] I have to make a mess right well I think they're kind of caught I mean on

[00:17:29] the one hand they do know that their call it invitation call it interference

[00:17:36] call it what you will bringing all those elves over from Valinor with

[00:17:44] the exception of the Vanja you could argue it was not a good idea mm-hmm and

[00:17:49] so here come these humans who are clearly more frail clearly have some

[00:17:55] kind of importance that they don't understand remember they don't know

[00:17:59] anything much at all about Eurus plan for the children because none of them

[00:18:07] except in a little bit of my way maybe and and and Melkor had any sense of the

[00:18:14] children in their part of the song yeah I would say Mendoz has some some kind

[00:18:19] of ideas as well yeah I mean he knows where they head out to presumably but

[00:18:24] just like any parent they didn't get a manual right so they do the best

[00:18:30] they can they make mistakes they try to learn from the mistakes and yeah we

[00:18:36] can go around saying well how come they didn't just you know break down their

[00:18:39] walls and go and store more often all the rest of it well because the last

[00:18:44] time they did that they destroyed a lot of the earth and yeah you know these

[00:18:49] these male collateral damage these collateral damage these humans just are

[00:18:53] not capable of dealing with that even the elves weren't capable of

[00:18:57] doing with that very well so I'm gonna push back a little bit go the

[00:19:03] Valar in the third age make a big deal about well this ring is of Middle-earth

[00:19:10] and therefore it must be destroyed by the peoples of Middle-earth

[00:19:14] well this being is of the Aenor and should be destroyed by the Aenor or

[00:19:22] contained or captured or put into the void by the Aenor I don't really

[00:19:28] understand how they ever expected the children of a Lubitar to deal with

[00:19:33] Morgoth it was not a realistic expectation yeah I don't know that they

[00:19:41] did expect it and that's why I call it inaction right is not I understand a

[00:19:48] little bit of caution but how many eons is warranted of caution and it's

[00:19:53] not like they took extra precautions once they finally did something all

[00:19:58] they did was wait until it got so bad that there was no other choice all they

[00:20:03] did was wait until a Randall arrived right I think there there's a key there

[00:20:08] I'm not sure that I can explicate it a lot but mm-hmm there was some I mean

[00:20:13] let's face it they had a right to be angry with an old or sure you know

[00:20:18] there was an older people living in Middle-earth either well no they're

[00:20:22] not and yet they're the most powerful people mm-hmm they're the ones who are

[00:20:27] basically ruling the roost for the time being and then thing will takes

[00:20:30] exception to that notion but you know Toria has the classic enclosed

[00:20:35] kingdom of the fairies the fey but the rest of it pretty wide open I

[00:20:43] know by the way it's only Elrond's word that we have that the Valar

[00:20:48] will not take the back of the ring okay you know for better or for worse it

[00:20:53] belongs to Middle-earth and we have to deal with it that's I mean he's wise I

[00:20:57] don't mean to imply otherwise I just wonder where he got that information

[00:21:01] mmm and why he feels that way about it all the Eagles stopped by and said

[00:21:06] here listen here's here's your here's your intel could be and also of

[00:21:13] course we'd already seen Sauron destroyed once by the direct intervention

[00:21:20] of a libertar and oh by the way that resulted in a lot of destruction of the

[00:21:24] land and not just the island of Numenor but also all the coasts up

[00:21:27] and down of Middle-earth so maybe they're not acting because they're

[00:21:34] afraid of the damage they might do yeah it's a good question and my

[00:21:40] case against men way strengthens as the as the chapters go on yeah well

[00:21:46] sometimes sometimes we need to blame somebody and he's daddy so oh I just

[00:21:51] I just yeah I know yeah yeah but no I just mean I think it's interesting to

[00:21:57] debate the leadership of the Valar because they are the rulers of this

[00:22:00] world for better or worse well but that's the thing you see that is one

[00:22:07] interpretation and it's often placed that way they were not to my mind the

[00:22:14] rulers of the earth they were the shapers and the tenders and the

[00:22:20] demi urges their knowledge was about the stuff of the earth they were

[00:22:27] intended to prepare it for the awakening of the children and they had

[00:22:34] you know nobody had made any plans for morgoth's rithing as it were and so he

[00:22:41] definitely introduced more than an element of chaos into things so there

[00:22:45] there was an extra factor that nobody had actually planned on but they were

[00:22:51] not they were not intended I don't think to be rulers that was the job

[00:22:57] and Tolkien's Catholicism would not let him depict a row to any great degree

[00:23:05] he's probably one of the most shadowy figures that we have after we get

[00:23:10] through the opening chapters to the Valacuenta so yeah I'd be nice if they

[00:23:16] learned as they went along you know like good parents do but they weren't

[00:23:21] supposed to be parents they weren't supposed to be you know even in the

[00:23:28] primary world I don't think Tolkien had a concept of God as a parent or a ruler

[00:23:35] in the sense we might think and again that's just my headcanon because we

[00:23:42] come to this this stone or stumbling block or gift whatever you want to

[00:23:47] call it of free will and an awful lot it seems to me of what the children

[00:23:54] are supposed to be learning is what do I do with this right where does my

[00:24:00] right end in your right begin you know whose earth is it anyway hmm so

[00:24:09] there I think there's this it's easy to see them as gods because they

[00:24:15] certainly mimic the pantheons that we're familiar with in the primary world you

[00:24:20] know the Greek and the Norse and all the rest of it but it's a little more

[00:24:25] nuanced than that and he never really dug into that too much because the

[00:24:30] story wasn't really about them right and it's interesting to ask you know

[00:24:35] why didn't the elves up and say yeah we don't know why he just they all

[00:24:39] sat behind their walls and did nothing yeah that's true they really

[00:24:43] don't complain about it even the noldor who are right yeah who are the biggest

[00:24:48] critics of the Valar well and I think they also the noldor most of them

[00:24:53] recognize okay we really messed up yeah yeah you know once once fan was out

[00:24:58] of the picture I think you know his older sons really did well I mean

[00:25:05] none of my throws says no I'm not gonna be king all right right we're

[00:25:11] save it for the future chapters for that one also we're getting dangerously

[00:25:17] close to a discussion of the problem of pain by CS Lewis so we're gonna have

[00:25:22] to move on from Catholicism for now yes yes so let's talk about men

[00:25:28] awakening so men awaken with the Sun which is super similar to how elves

[00:25:34] awaken with the stars right I thought this is fascinating and I kind of

[00:25:38] don't know what he's doing with this except perhaps to signify Wes as the

[00:25:45] days and years are are accelerating that men are you know the shorter

[00:25:53] lived yeah that was that a lot of that was interesting it's almost as

[00:25:58] if you know once Yavanna's vegetation starts to grow that's kind

[00:26:06] of yet another event which brings about more death if you will because Middle

[00:26:12] Earth is not deathless it's beautiful right it's fantastic it all these new

[00:26:18] things they have a life cycle and in bali nor if you have the capacity to

[00:26:27] live there you simply have you know eternal bliss you have you have trees

[00:26:32] that don't die until they're killed and and plants and so forth so there is

[00:26:38] this sense of I think at some point he refers to the air gets heavier with

[00:26:44] mortality mmm yeah and I had posed this question why would the years of

[00:26:50] the Sun run swifter than the years of the two trees and I think my how

[00:26:55] I'd answer my own question is because the years of the Sun are years of

[00:27:02] mortality and they seem to go more quickly because you know there's gonna

[00:27:08] be an end right whereas if you know you are in the realm of the eternal

[00:27:14] there's there's no concern about yep this is gonna end one day right

[00:27:19] because it will but one day is unimaginably distant from here and now

[00:27:26] right and the fact that the such a one more thing the fact that the Sun

[00:27:32] first arose in the West and the opening eyes of men were turned

[00:27:36] toward it and their feet as they wandered over the earth for the most

[00:27:39] part strayed that way I saw that as a really lovely secondary world

[00:27:45] explanation for why humans at least on the East Coast of the Atlantic look to

[00:27:50] the West as a place of blessings of ancestors of great ones and this is

[00:27:58] also you have the legends of shield sheaf which Tolkien was fascinated by

[00:28:04] the first encountered in Beowulf which of course we all know Tolkien

[00:28:08] loved and there's a king sheave less legend which was associate he associated

[00:28:17] that with the Lost Road and the notion club papers this is when the idea of

[00:28:20] new and order was just beginning to percolate and it's the traditions as

[00:28:26] he wrote in a letter to Christopher Bretherton in 1964 the traditions of

[00:28:32] the North Sea so it's not even all of it you know Eastern Coast it's

[00:28:38] just the North Sea concerning the coming of corn and culture heroes ancestors of

[00:28:43] kingly lines and boats and their departure in funeral ships so there

[00:28:48] again association with funerals and you know bereavement in the West one

[00:28:54] such sheaf or shield chafing can actually be made out as one of the

[00:28:58] remote ancestors of our present Queen now I take that with lashings

[00:29:03] of salt but this was very much in his mind these were very important legends

[00:29:11] to him and again I think this is his way of hinting at why we have such a

[00:29:19] strong association with the West as being the place of heroes the place of

[00:29:23] our ancestors right and of course we've been you know mentioning this

[00:29:28] from time to time for the beginning but Tolkien was also a man from the

[00:29:32] West who was born in a colonial state yeah and there is an aspect of you know

[00:29:39] the whole West is best colonialist attitude and I I don't think he

[00:29:43] explicitly held it but I think it's somewhere in his psyche that's

[00:29:47] interesting John I hadn't thought about that but I think I think you're

[00:29:50] right I think there may be more than a little influence about that too

[00:29:55] and and again I I think Tolkien it's really interesting because he's clearly

[00:30:00] a traditionalist and he clearly holds a lot of very traditional socially

[00:30:05] conservative views but I think he also was super empathetic and those two

[00:30:14] things are a bit in conflict in his writing hmm hmm well certainly

[00:30:22] retrospectively he knew his mother had been appalled by the things that she

[00:30:28] saw in in the colonized area that was at that time called the Orange Free

[00:30:33] Strait which eventually morphed into South Africa right and he kind of took

[00:30:38] that on for his own and then when he wrote letters to his son Christopher

[00:30:44] who was there in South Africa training with the RAF he spoke about

[00:30:50] you know I I'm not at all surprised that you find you know treatment of

[00:30:54] people's appalling because you know my my mother felt the same way and yes it

[00:30:59] really is appalling and so forth right right something else I'm thinking

[00:31:06] of with the Sun and Moon since we're we're we're veering off now the Sun

[00:31:11] and Moon versus the stars is that the Sun is up for a short while and

[00:31:20] then in and then gone right nice but the the stars remain in their places for

[00:31:30] eternity well you know stars burn out but basically

[00:31:34] expand because the universe is expanding but yeah I get your basic

[00:31:37] point but they fade with the coming of the Sun into invisibility which is

[00:31:44] exactly what happens we even hear in this chapter which is exactly what

[00:31:48] happens to the bodies of elves lovely John I really like that now you've got

[00:31:57] some other notes here about the dark elves as well yes it would you know

[00:32:07] the Noldor are the ones who come along and kind of trample through this

[00:32:11] Tolkien writes but the dawn is brief and the day full often belies its

[00:32:16] promise you know it may start off well but sooner or later somebody's gonna

[00:32:19] come along and throw a wrench and things but this early early time of the

[00:32:25] elves there was little peril in the lands and the hills and their new

[00:32:29] things devised long ages before in the thought of Yavanna and sown as

[00:32:33] seed in the dark came at last to their budding in their bloom west

[00:32:38] north and south the children of men spread and wandered and their joy was

[00:32:43] the joy of the morning before the dew is dry when every leaf is green gosh

[00:32:49] that sounds like Eden to me yeah yeah and I think that's the closest that

[00:32:54] Tolkien could come just to saying you know this is this is my secondary

[00:33:01] worlds version of Eden he wrote in a letter I think again to Christopher

[00:33:06] that there definitely had been an Eden on this unhappy world so he held

[00:33:13] that belief quite firmly so it's not surprising to me that it would show up

[00:33:18] in his legendarium in some fashion and I think to me has always been

[00:33:23] something that we all seek you know we all seek that piece mm-hmm and

[00:33:28] Tolkien whose early life was filled with such turmoil and pain must have

[00:33:34] wanted to believe that this place existed yeah I think it also gets

[00:33:38] associated with innocence mm-hmm you know which he lost very early exactly

[00:33:44] you know prior to the knowledge of good and evil so to speak the time before

[00:33:50] they started to encounter more Goth and his lies and and even you know

[00:33:56] the return of the returning of the no door brought with it pain and

[00:34:01] suffering and destruction yeah so and of course we learn in this passage in this

[00:34:09] section that things are gonna be good for a while but at this story does a

[00:34:14] lot of foreshadowing right this writing they Tolkien basically says

[00:34:18] yes so the no door are gonna turn this completely upside down with

[00:34:21] their nonsense yeah I don't gonna last I don't think they were as

[00:34:25] allergic to spoilers in his time as we seem to be now no I know

[00:34:29] everything everything today has to be sealed in a vault until the minute that

[00:34:32] you're ready we once got feedback admonishing us for spoiling a 60 year

[00:34:38] old book no I was like you've had your opportunity you've had your

[00:34:43] opportunity if you're listening to us now presumably you know something about

[00:34:47] it anyway anyway fun times Marilyn any more points about the no doors

[00:34:57] nonsense before we take a quick break well it's pretty nonsensical it I mean

[00:35:06] it's it's the dangers of possessiveness which was one of Tolkien's favorite

[00:35:10] themes its pride its arrogance and it's the danger of oaths mmm

[00:35:19] particularly owes they're taken upon the name of the Valar especially

[00:35:27] over broad owes neither neither men nor demon nor vala you know wait just

[00:35:34] everybody everybody I'm gonna mess you all up fey and or says yeah I don't

[00:35:38] care who you are you know you know those are my some rules and if you

[00:35:42] try to keep them from me but the really tragic thing is that he also

[00:35:47] laid this oath upon his sons not only the time they jumped up and swore it

[00:35:51] beside him when he first made it but here's fan or on his death rock if you

[00:35:58] will because he wasn't in bed he was in one of the hills looking out what

[00:36:04] Murgas had built for his own palace and saw with his own eyes that their

[00:36:09] quest was impossible yep and yet he bladed upon his sons to keep the

[00:36:16] and you want to talk about bad parenting yeah I mean you know the Valar

[00:36:23] are nothing compared to fan oh I'm sorry for being a really bad father

[00:36:31] it's true I'm not sure Finway was the best dad either to be honest but

[00:36:35] no no but that's then to get into a whole discussion of marriage and

[00:36:39] divorce and yep yeah I don't think I don't think the marriage and divorce

[00:36:43] was the problem I think his governance of his house surrounding it was the

[00:36:47] problem yeah yeah I mean how do we handle our grief right yeah he was very

[00:36:53] much a grieving husband and now it's very hard to give children what they

[00:37:01] need and want when you yourself are so so deeply wounded right all right

[00:37:07] Marilyn let's take a quick break when we get back we will talk about

[00:37:10] some details of men sounds good

[00:37:26] hey listeners if you've been listening to our show chances are you've heard

[00:37:31] the wonderful contributions of our favorite Tolkien scholar Marilyn

[00:37:34] Arpukila Marilyn just launched her own podcast on our network called rings

[00:37:39] and rituals join me and dr. Sara Brown on our journey through the Lord of the

[00:37:43] Rings the Rings of Power through the lens of ritual episodes drop every other

[00:37:47] Wednesday on the rings and rituals feed linked in the show notes see you

[00:37:52] there

[00:37:54] so we get some details about men in the latter part of this it's so we get this

[00:38:10] whole idea that they're close to elves in these days just a little bit lesser

[00:38:14] this caliquendi moriquendi men scale the latter of evolution right you

[00:38:20] know you know the evolution of man charts where it's like you know they

[00:38:23] start off as a caveman and they end up crouching over a computer yeah that's

[00:38:27] what we're looking at here and I'm throwing around a lot of words but

[00:38:30] caliquendi is just the light elves the light the elves you saw the light

[00:38:33] of the trees of Valinor moriquendi is the dark elves those who did not

[00:38:37] see the light of Valinor whether they wanted to or not and men are men

[00:38:42] who don't even know that the you know the two trees ever existed or

[00:38:48] right right yeah so Tolkien again Tolkien loved him his hierarchies yeah

[00:38:57] and that's what we got here but it is kind of interesting that they started

[00:39:02] off as being you know more equal than they eventually wind up or are portrayed

[00:39:10] as winding up and it kind of makes me wonder so if there's so much weaker

[00:39:15] and you know sickly and all the charming names that developed for the race the

[00:39:22] Uggos but what I want to know is how did they manage to overcome the elves

[00:39:29] if they're so weak and pathetic and all the kinds of things that were

[00:39:35] striving here and you know you could just say well it's because that's

[00:39:41] how it was and the sort of overarching knowledge that this is how they were

[00:39:48] created that the elves are gonna fade and you know right now with an old order

[00:39:54] running around and the send out of keeping hidden it's like it's hard to

[00:39:58] recognize that because they are presented as being so much superior

[00:40:01] now is that because these stories are told by the no go I wonder but

[00:40:08] I mean like the Tigers are a lot stronger than us if we had to fight

[00:40:13] them one-on-one but we spread out a lot more and and also I think you have

[00:40:20] the aspect of what you kind of alluded to it but the elves

[00:40:24] voluntarily leaving Middle Earth at certain times right which is that they

[00:40:29] I think that the elves other than the no door and only certain old or

[00:40:35] didn't really desire to have a permanent domain on Middle Earth this

[00:40:39] was always going to be a passing semblance here that's an interesting

[00:40:45] question um the ones who never do gold the the Mordekwende the dark elves it

[00:40:52] seems to me that they have just said look we love this earth we don't

[00:40:57] want to leave it and in the end they don't leave it right but they will

[00:41:01] their bodies fade but their their souls their spirits remain right and they're

[00:41:09] not interested in in power and domination and all that sort of thing

[00:41:13] so in a sense that saves them but the more that the elves were putting

[00:41:21] out in terms of fighting battles and trying to overcome what goth and oh by

[00:41:27] the way doing pretty nasty things too the more their their physical essence

[00:41:34] is consumed by their spiritual essence and I don't know if that would have

[00:41:41] been the same thing for the men because the men don't hang around

[00:41:44] long enough to find out you know right right and so maybe the fact that

[00:41:50] men were more vulnerable and sickly and aged and all the rest of it was

[00:41:55] the balancing factor against the elves it particularly if they both started off

[00:42:02] with the same level of stature and strength and so forth right it's

[00:42:06] interesting because he says oh there are like stature and strength but the

[00:42:10] elves are just way better and and we have this hierarchy put into place

[00:42:14] Kalaquendi Moraquendi men first of all quick question do you think we're

[00:42:18] seeing the Moraquendi the dark elves in rings of power I think we're

[00:42:24] seeing Sylvan elves okay I have yet to see anything that I would equate with

[00:42:28] Moraquendi because I don't see Moraquendi acknowledging Gil-galad as

[00:42:32] Viking oh I mean you know as we have the stranger running off into the east

[00:42:37] into ruin do you think that we're finally gonna see some dark elves on

[00:42:42] screen hmm interesting question it's really important for me to remember

[00:42:48] that dark elf does not have anything to do with their morality it's

[00:42:52] strictly whether or not they saw the light or even wanted to go to see it

[00:42:58] right I don't think we can say there's anything innately evil for saying nah

[00:43:02] thanks I'm good here no no no no I don't think there's anything innately

[00:43:06] evil it's yeah it's about where they imbued with this sort of superpower

[00:43:10] were they supercharged by this light of the trees with wisdom with some

[00:43:15] extra strength with with this holy light I think so and also with association

[00:43:22] with the Valar you know you hear you have you know an old or studying with

[00:43:28] Aule so they have greatly increased skills in Smithcraft and so forth and

[00:43:32] some of them with Yavanna so they have the ability to make things grow

[00:43:38] and blossom and so on and so on so it's a combination of factors right

[00:43:43] and and we'll cover this part that I'm about to talk about when we get

[00:43:47] to of the coming of men into the West but the early men have a similar

[00:43:51] experience with the elves right they they are wiser than their kindred

[00:43:57] because they befriend certain no door at the factions and I think there's

[00:44:04] also an element of they are fleeing from a darkness which is in their

[00:44:12] distant past that they do not wish to go back to and they have heard

[00:44:15] rumors presumably from more quendi elves that there is light and

[00:44:20] goodness in the West and so they travel you know in comprehensible distances to

[00:44:27] get away from the darkness which is behind them and get to the light which

[00:44:31] they've heard of the only problem is they cross the blue mountains and they

[00:44:36] come into Balar and and something they find oh actually we just walked

[00:44:40] right into the evil because by the way over a couple of forests and streams

[00:44:45] or whatever is the home of the evil itself right and there's wars and

[00:44:50] battles and conflicts and so on so right but at least the implication is

[00:44:55] they left for the right reasons and they were seeking the right things and

[00:45:01] that I think was part of what gave them more stature right and and they

[00:45:06] loved the elves and pledged their service to them right they came as

[00:45:12] friends right they came to be they became friends certainly they became

[00:45:17] friends they came seeking goodness however they were defining that and

[00:45:22] because the first elf they ever encountered was Vinrod Feligund well you

[00:45:27] know that was a real good introduction to the very best of elvish nature

[00:45:32] sooner or later they did figure out okay well you know he's kind of an

[00:45:36] exemplar just like humans you know there's a full range of elvish

[00:45:42] behavior and smirna is smart already add that's a deep-cut joke if you know

[00:45:50] that one great if not don't worry about it he might even remember by the

[00:45:55] time they come to that particular chapter right right all right so that

[00:45:59] point so men are mortal we know that because we are we are the race of of

[00:46:04] humans and that's a big departure from the elves who are gonna live forever and

[00:46:12] and not only that we have this big gaping difference which is when the

[00:46:18] elves die they just teleport on back to to the Valinor and the und you know

[00:46:24] the halls of Mando's their spirit does at least they can be restored

[00:46:28] embody many times you know by the will of Al are but men they might hang out

[00:46:35] with Mando's for a minute but that's not the final stop and nobody knows

[00:46:38] what that final stop is except Mando's right right and he ain't telling

[00:46:45] and this whole this whole thing is the heart and the basis and the seed

[00:46:53] of so many stories in legendary mm-hmm you know the coming together of Elf and

[00:46:58] human you know so the first instance of course Baron Lillian and then you have

[00:47:03] to order an Israel and you have the quote unquote creation of the half elven

[00:47:11] which is a term that is applied with such scorn by some people in in

[00:47:17] the Rings of Power series I don't see why I mean you can get the best

[00:47:22] of both worlds right yeah I understand the idea of like you know if if this

[00:47:28] special thing happens too many extra times like if they had a ten more elf

[00:47:32] human couples I think that that would start to dilute the specialness of the

[00:47:38] ones that we have but it's one more I don't think it's that big of a deal

[00:47:42] no well and then the one more is probably down in in the southern

[00:47:49] regions of Gondor right you have Prince Imrah Hill I was fine it's so

[00:47:55] fascinating that the proof that he has elven blood way back is that he doesn't

[00:48:00] have a beard now cast your mind back to Peter Jackson's casting and all the

[00:48:08] humans who come from an elvish line who had beards and you're like well

[00:48:12] okay right moving on right well and you also have I mean I think a lot of the

[00:48:21] people who make the argument like oh you're just trying to copy Elrond and

[00:48:25] Aragorn or Baron and Luthien a lot of them don't even know about Tua or

[00:48:28] an Idril and they just don't want to they don't even talk about it right

[00:48:33] right and then Imrah Hill's ancestors who it were and we're a little can the

[00:48:41] reason why it was it was such a massive and crucial thing is this was

[00:48:47] his way of making sure that some small aspect of elves would remain forever

[00:48:56] in certain very very important humans so the ennoblement of humanity was this

[00:49:05] goal and I find that an interesting concept in and of itself again this is

[00:49:09] sort of Tolkien's whole interest in what he called blood which I find more

[00:49:14] the little troubling but again it's an aspect of his culture in his time a

[00:49:22] lot of ideas about evolution and different quote-unquote races and things

[00:49:29] got changed pretty quickly after right Hitler started rampaging through

[00:49:34] Europe and they that scholars of anthropology and sociology and so forth

[00:49:41] began to revise their theories pretty quickly but it is the heroic

[00:49:45] tradition that the hero is the child of a god and so this again I think is

[00:49:56] Tolkien's way of bringing in that that concept you know you have the

[00:49:59] demigods who were the children of Zeus or whoever bringing that divine

[00:50:05] nature into human beings in a small way perhaps and here we have the

[00:50:12] elves standing in for that I think yeah wouldn't it be fun if when we when you

[00:50:18] did 23 and me it said you're this percent Neanderthal and this percent

[00:50:22] elf well by recent scholarship I think the Neanderthals are pretty good

[00:50:29] people to draw your ancestry from there you go there you go yeah and of

[00:50:34] course this is one of the benefits of reading the Silmarillion is you

[00:50:39] can see in this discussion the seeds for our women Aragon right right and the

[00:50:48] tie back to the mythologies and the very very ancient histories so what he

[00:50:57] says what Tolkien says is the fate of men after death maybe is not in the

[00:51:01] hands of the ballar nor was all foretold in the music of the eye

[00:51:05] nor and so there you have the setup for we don't know what happens to men

[00:51:12] after they die or and women and non-binary and humans and that

[00:51:19] wonderful tale the appendices of of our own in Aragon

[00:51:24] Arwen says you know I say to you King of the new minority and not till

[00:51:29] now have I understood the tale of your people in their fall as wicked

[00:51:33] fools I scorned them but I pity them at last for if this is indeed as the

[00:51:38] elders say the gift of the one to men it is bitter to receive right she's

[00:51:44] living it now and some understanding can only happen experientially and

[00:51:50] Aragon replies and says so it seems but let us not be overthrown at the

[00:51:55] final test who of old renounced the shadow and the ring in sorrow we must

[00:52:00] go but not in despair behold we are not bound forever to the circles of the

[00:52:06] world and beyond them is more than memory farewell you can you can see why

[00:52:12] he was named Estelle which means hope yeah that was his first name and again

[00:52:19] we get the reminder of the difference between fear or sorrow and despair or

[00:52:26] even hope and despair this notion that at the end of the day we have to trust

[00:52:37] trust what we know or think we know or have experienced of what we might call

[00:52:44] loving God or grace or the beauty of the world and that it doesn't just end

[00:52:51] with life no I know everybody doesn't believe that that's fine but this is

[00:52:56] this is Tolkien's own statement right you know death is is death is bitter to

[00:53:04] receive and yet that doesn't mean that we can't go with hope right we

[00:53:15] talked a lot before about how the elves consume their bodies with their with

[00:53:21] their spirits so I'm gonna skip over that okay but I do want to talk about

[00:53:26] on the note of hope Baron and Aarondale the teases of them towards the end

[00:53:35] Baron of course being the only the only person the only man to ever come

[00:53:41] back from death that's that's plugged in this chapter and then Aarondale is the

[00:53:48] one who's going to provide hope for both men and elves yes beautiful yes and

[00:53:57] again this seems to be one of the reasons why the Valar wait so long to

[00:54:05] intervene because this is the anticipated and expected and intended

[00:54:11] outcome that we will have an offspring of both humans and elves to

[00:54:21] come and plead for for both races again don't like the word race but

[00:54:25] that's the one he uses and that this glory and beauty of the elves and

[00:54:33] their fate is to be shared fully with the offspring of Elfen mortal Aarondale

[00:54:40] and Elwing and Elrond their child so again the ennoblement of humans I like

[00:54:50] it a lot I think it's a great note to end on Marilyn this was actually a

[00:54:55] very fun chapter to talk about with you because going into it I thought I

[00:54:59] don't know what I'm gonna talk about for so long about this chapter

[00:55:02] that's really just a couple pages but you've pulled a lot of great stuff out

[00:55:08] of it and I really appreciate that you were the one who came on this one well

[00:55:12] thank you I really appreciated being invited to do so and the longer you

[00:55:19] live with Tolkien the more there is right an act right I just I have the

[00:55:24] benefit of long years of having him be on my bookshelf right well if you

[00:55:34] listener want to talk Tolkien with us you can write into lotr at the

[00:55:39] lorehounds.com and go to the contact page on our website the lorehounds.com

[00:55:43] or you can head on to our discord there's a Tolkien talk channel you

[00:55:47] can tag us you can if you write a thoughtful comment and you don't tag

[00:55:50] I guess we might pull it anyway just so beware beware but if you aren't a fan of

[00:55:56] writing in and you still want to hear more Tolkien talk you should of course

[00:56:00] tune into Rings and Rituals Marilyn's podcast I'm caught up now and oh my

[00:56:06] god is it good I was listening to it the other morning while I was I was

[00:56:11] just getting the kids ready and it's just such a peaceful morning listen

[00:56:16] and I hope people will check it out because I'm really proud that we're

[00:56:19] hosting it on our on our network I think it's really high quality stuff and

[00:56:24] I think it deserves a bigger audience well I'm so grateful to you for for

[00:56:29] giving us the platform and all the support and you know there we are and

[00:56:35] in the discord channels and having lots of wonderful conversations with

[00:56:40] people and I in some respects I wish we could come out every week because

[00:56:45] I think people like that flow and the continuity and so forth but given my

[00:56:51] schedule and in particular given Sara's schedule we had to give ourselves some

[00:56:57] leeway right and and that also means that our feedback is not consonant

[00:57:02] with with our recordings and I hope that's not too irritating people you

[00:57:06] get used to the the pattern of the weekly podcast and so you can talk

[00:57:10] about stuff from the previous episode and feedback and all the rest of it

[00:57:13] but I hope that since you know the program has been around for a while now

[00:57:19] anyway it won't matter quite as much that you know we have that kind of yeah

[00:57:24] I think it's a good cadence schedule I think it's a good cadence so please

[00:57:28] go check that out that links in the show notes we have some other

[00:57:31] affiliates too we just launched radioactive ramblings a fallout podcast

[00:57:35] which is Aaron and chase they are you might recognize Aaron as Aaron K

[00:57:41] from our discord he's one of the mods one of the Duna dying and he is a

[00:57:46] really great guy his friend chase a really great guy they are covering the

[00:57:51] new fallout show on Amazon Prime it's getting rave reviews and there and

[00:57:56] their download numbers are up too so it must have a big audience and and

[00:58:00] so they are doing a great job covering it they already have episodes one

[00:58:06] through six covered on their feeds you can go there now for most of the

[00:58:10] season they're gonna do another podcast on episode seven and eight coming soon

[00:58:15] looks like late this week and then they're going to be doing a final

[00:58:21] season wrap-up and listener feedback episode so definitely check out their

[00:58:25] feed to find out how you can write into them

[00:58:29] wool shift dust is back they're doing beacon 23 on Alicia's feed she already

[00:58:36] with author Hugh Howie and yeah yeah I love that she's I poked fun at her the

[00:58:43] other day on our Shogun podcast because she's been she's been subbing for me

[00:58:48] on a lot of the Shogun podcast because of my mother's illness and I

[00:58:51] was out and I said hi I'm Alicia I know Hugh Howie so I hope she's not

[00:59:00] too offended if she listens to that one but yeah so it's great stuff I know

[00:59:06] she's got some Dune stuff planned too so stick around over there probably

[00:59:11] Howard movie review is back they are reviewing movies and deciding if they

[00:59:17] are better worse or on par with a Ron Howard film their current season is

[00:59:22] felonies and fugazis and they are there they've already covered point

[00:59:28] break you can find that on their feed now shakedown is their next one then

[00:59:33] they're doing tango and cash pulp fiction gross point blank and rocky so

[00:59:39] plenty of great content ahead it's really funny I already listened to some

[00:59:44] of the point break one and I haven't even seen the movie and it's a good

[00:59:46] time so gotta check it out so for the sake of listeners like myself who

[00:59:52] really don't know what a fugazi is who gazes let's let's uh leave it to

[00:59:58] them to explain and Gazi oh it means f'd up in an f'd up situation it looks

[01:00:08] like gotcha it's Tolkien so I feel the need to be a little cleaner than our

[01:00:13] explicit rating I don't know I just feel like the professor is watching me

[01:00:16] so felonies and reclimpness yeah there you go there you go and of course

[01:00:21] we'll be joining Anthony and Steve to cover severance season 2 once that's

[01:00:25] out that's in a separate feed as well so that check the show notes for that

[01:00:29] for the lore hounds we're finishing up Shogun we've got a couple episodes left

[01:00:33] one's probably out actually like today and we are covering it basically with

[01:00:42] Alicia at this point because she's been in for so much of the season I

[01:00:46] am gonna be on the podcast with David for episodes 9 & 10 and then all

[01:00:49] three of us are gonna do a season wrap we're also gonna have a special

[01:00:53] guest Nate on the discord he's a PhD candidate and member of the East Asian

[01:00:59] Studies faculty at Princeton so yeah I mean I'm really excited to chat with

[01:01:04] him he's always got great stuff to say in the Shogun channels he knows a

[01:01:08] ton about this stuff yeah that's one of the things that's really great

[01:01:11] about the discord is that you do get people there who you know they they

[01:01:17] are of Japanese you know or they studied it for their for their livelihood

[01:01:24] and so on and so you can write some marvelous insights into these things

[01:01:28] right I mean we got Brian 8063 with White House plumbers and a bunch of

[01:01:32] other projects and you've got Nate here on on Japanese history it's

[01:01:37] incredible I can't believe the people who copped into the discord

[01:01:43] we've got a bunch of other stuff coming there was a monkey man one shot with

[01:01:47] Alicia and David there's a Star Wars film festival coming back with a new

[01:01:52] hope this month yeah you just put out a lore hounds play about halo and that

[01:01:57] one has me Brandon and John so he come he came in to talk about halo I

[01:02:02] know David's got a couple one shots planned with Ron Dawson three-body

[01:02:07] problem in Civil War and I think John's on that one too and you're

[01:02:10] gonna do one on Dick Turpin with him that's right we are busily crafting that

[01:02:15] one and I think it's gonna be fun if you haven't seen that series and you

[01:02:19] really want some light-heartedness in your life I can highly recommend

[01:02:23] Dictor the completely made-up adventures of Dick Turpin which is on

[01:02:27] Apple plus sounds like a lot of fun it is it is I lastly want to plug

[01:02:33] because I think you'll like it if you like the Silmarillion we're still

[01:02:36] going through Earthsea we're finally back with it Marilyn you and I are

[01:02:40] gonna be recording the podcast tomorrow night so it should be up two

[01:02:43] or three days after this Silmarillion stories episode mm-hmm so that that'll

[01:02:48] be a lot of fun we're covering dragonfly just the short story

[01:02:50] dragonfly right now yes plenty of stuff coming in the summer we've got

[01:02:56] dr. whoo the acolyte the boys the bear severance rings of power sometime

[01:03:01] and house of the dragon is gonna be our big June show starting June 16th David

[01:03:08] and I actually just had a conversation we're going to be doing a season one

[01:03:11] rewatch podcast oh in the weeks leading up to house of the dragon

[01:03:16] that's gonna be our big weekly coverage after Shogun so we're gonna

[01:03:20] have a good time with it by the way I meant to say I have not watched

[01:03:24] monkey man I don't think I ever will watch monkey man but I really enjoyed

[01:03:28] the podcast so oh good I listened to some of it it sounds like a fun movie

[01:03:34] it sounds like a movie I would like uh-huh it's always fun I do enjoy

[01:03:39] listening to podcasts where I didn't consume the media sometimes it's it's

[01:03:42] fun to get the people's impressions yeah no it works it works all right

[01:03:47] quick plug on our patreon it's a great place you get early and ad free

[01:03:52] access to our content you get Shire side chats you get second breakfast

[01:03:56] you get access to polls where we talk about what movie we're gonna when we

[01:04:00] decide we're gonna what we're gonna cover on second breakfast for our old

[01:04:03] man movie or our millennial madness movie whatever David calls my lists and

[01:04:08] you get to just be a part of the community and help us you know fund

[01:04:13] these efforts to make more podcasts to bring on more additional feeds you

[01:04:18] know it's it's great when somebody like Aaron approaches us or someone

[01:04:22] like Marilyn approaches us and says hey can we host the feed here sure that

[01:04:27] sounds great we have resources here so please consider joining us on the

[01:04:33] patreon I want to thank our discord server boosters Opus in the Machine

[01:04:38] Gnarls, Aaron K, Tiller the Thriller, Dork of the Ninjas, and Doof71 and

[01:04:45] also our patreon lore masters our top tier subscribers who put the G in

[01:05:22] SubZero, Aaron K, DeliV21, Mothership61 our newest lore master, Gnarls and Adrian

[01:05:31] always last but never least thanks everyone you're getting very good at

[01:05:37] Gnarls oh thank you I've been practicing every podcast I practice

[01:05:43] anyway thank you to our lore masters thank you to all our patrons

[01:05:46] and supercast subscribers it really helps us keep things going and

[01:05:50] thanks to you listener for being here on our journey through the Silmarillion

[01:05:54] Marilyn I'll talk to you on Earthsea sounds like a plan

[01:06:00] The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds you can

[01:06:04] send questions and feedback and voicemails at the lorehounds.com

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[01:06:21] thanks for listening

[01:06:29] hey listeners Aaron here if you're watching fallout on Amazon Prime video

[01:06:33] then we have just the podcast for you Radioactive Ramblings has joined the

[01:06:38] Lorehounds network we are going to be breaking down the show episode by

[01:06:41] episode making far-fetched theories and dropping some tidbits of lore if you

[01:06:45] want to hear us ramble tune into Radioactive Ramblings linked in the show

[01:06:49] notes we hope to have you join us in the wasteland

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