Silmarillion Stories - E14 - The Return of the Noldor Part 1

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[00:00:48] start to finish. May the fourth be with you all, all month and beyond. Welcome to

[00:01:17] Silmarillion Stories, where the Lorehounds your guides to Tolkien's world of Middle Earth. I'm

[00:01:22] John and this is our podcast for Of the Return of the Noldor Part 1, the 14th portion

[00:01:29] of The Silmarillion. In this episode, we're going to be discussing the death of Feanor,

[00:01:34] the rescue of Maedros and the suspicions of Thingol. If you want to get in on the

[00:01:39] Tolkien Talk, send an email to lotr at the lorehounds dot com or visit our website

[00:01:45] where we've got a contact form or a voicemail feature. We also have a great Discord server

[00:01:52] link below and there is a fun and active community there. There are dedicated Tolkien

[00:01:56] and Silmarillion channels and channels for all of the other shows we're covering.

[00:02:01] Speaking of, please stick around to the end of the podcast for programming notes about

[00:02:05] the rest of our coverage in May, such as House of the Dragon and Doctor Who.

[00:02:09] One more note if you want to support us directly head to patreon dot com slash the

[00:02:13] lorehounds or Supercast. For as little as three bucks a month subscribers get ad free and early

[00:02:18] access to all of our podcasts. You get Shire Side Chats, a podcast where I break down the

[00:02:23] letters of J.R.R. Tolkien one by one and plenty of other stuff like the show guide and the show

[00:02:28] tracker. Plenty of great stuff on there. Okay, so with me today is Caitlin Facista,

[00:02:35] the creator of Tea with Tolkien. Caitlin, thank you so much for being here today.

[00:02:39] Thanks for having me on. This is always fun to talk about Tolkien.

[00:02:44] Yeah, so you do quite a lot of work in the Tolkien space and you're the leader of a

[00:02:49] pretty large community. I joined your Discord server today and I was like, wow there's a

[00:02:53] lot of people here. Oh yeah, yeah it's surprisingly big. It's awesome. Can you

[00:02:59] talk a little bit about what you do about Tolkien? Sure, so I lead a community called

[00:03:06] Tea with Tolkien and the primary thing that we do is a book club. So we kind of rotate

[00:03:13] through Tolkien's works. We just started a Selma Rellian book club last week and so we kind of,

[00:03:20] what I'll usually do is I'll break the book into like 10 or 12 parts and then we'll spend

[00:03:25] like you know a couple months working through each book and we'll have voice chats in our

[00:03:31] Discord server and text chats that are kind of like going 24-7. And so that's like the main

[00:03:37] thing that we do and I always really enjoy that because there are always new people coming in

[00:03:42] and so you get that kind of fresh perspective on things that maybe it might be something that

[00:03:48] I've overlooked because I've read the Selma Rellian so many times. So that's super fun

[00:03:53] and then we also have a lot of free resources on my website. Probably the best one is our

[00:03:59] Selma Rellian Reader's Guide that I'm really proud of and we've actually had it translated

[00:04:03] into German and I have someone working on translating it into let me think Spanish and

[00:04:11] Turkish and Greek right now. And this is all like volunteer work because the guide is free

[00:04:16] and so you know it takes a while but I just think it's really cool that we're making the

[00:04:21] Selma Rellian and kind of Selma Rellian resources more available to people around

[00:04:27] the world. So that's really fun. And then I guess the other thing I do with Tea with Tolkien

[00:04:33] that's more fun versus like super helpful is I like to kind of post about like

[00:04:40] Hobbit parties that I have a lot. We'll do like recipes or game ideas because my family

[00:04:47] has a Hobbit party every year and this is our 14th year having one. And so I always

[00:04:55] love to kind of think of new ideas for that and so I'll share them on the website too.

[00:04:59] That's awesome. And you have a podcast of your own too right?

[00:05:03] Yeah, so I've kind of been moving more towards YouTube because I found that videos are a lot

[00:05:08] more fun but the podcast does still exist so it's just called Tea with Tolkien and the

[00:05:13] YouTube channel is also called Tea with Tolkien too. Cool. Yeah. I hope people will go and

[00:05:18] subscribe to those. I will put them in the show notes. Awesome. Really excited to have you

[00:05:23] here. So I now need to tell you how you helped the lore hounds come to existence because back

[00:05:31] in our origin story this was early 2022. The Rings of Power was coming and I was talking,

[00:05:38] I don't know if you've heard of the podcast network Bald Move but they do a lot of Game

[00:05:43] of Thrones and things like that and I was on that Discord server and talking with other

[00:05:47] listeners to that podcast and some people said you know I've never read the Lord of

[00:05:51] the Rings before. I didn't wanting to do it and I said all right well I've read it I can sort of

[00:05:55] lead us through it a little bit but I needed a resource to break it up for me and make a

[00:06:00] schedule and I was just googling Tolkien reading book club schedule and you came up.

[00:06:06] No way. We used one of your templates for the schedule for that. That's so cool. Oh my

[00:06:12] gosh. And then David, my normal co-host, he ended up reaching out to me and saying

[00:06:20] you seem to know a lot about this Tolkien thing. You're interested in maybe trying

[00:06:24] a podcast and that's how we ended up doing this whole thing. So actually it's pretty funny that

[00:06:28] that your template was part of the origin of this podcast. That's crazy. Oh my gosh. That's

[00:06:35] so cool. So I would recommend the resource. That's what I told everybody. Also I did dig

[00:06:43] a little bit on your Silmarillion guide today and for our listeners, we do for our patrons

[00:06:49] these show guides for a lot of shows like we just started one for House of the Dragon

[00:06:53] and they're very visual and whatnot. This is very similar and you do a really great job

[00:06:57] summarizing things making it digestible so I would really recommend checking all this out.

[00:07:02] It's all at twithtolkien.com right? Yes. Yeah. Thank you so much. That's awesome. I'm glad

[00:07:07] you like it. It's great. It's great. Great resource and you're doing the professor's

[00:07:13] work out there. I hope he would be proud. I think so. All right. So the Silmarillion,

[00:07:22] can you give a little background of how you came to the Silmarillion and Tolkien in general?

[00:07:27] Yeah. So I think as with most people my age, I was first introduced to Tolkien through

[00:07:33] the Peter Jackson movies and I think I was maybe 11 when they came out and so I instantly

[00:07:41] loved the movies and then as I got older, I of course picked up the books and I couldn't really

[00:07:47] understand them at first as I was reading but I just kind of kept going

[00:07:52] and eventually I just completely fell in love with the Lord of the Rings and I was that nerdy

[00:07:56] kid at school who was like scribbling on my notebook in Elvish because of course I had

[00:08:02] I tried to teach myself Elvish as like a 12 year old and I gave myself the nickname of

[00:08:08] Gimli which like looking back, all the girls always loved Legolas and Aragorn but for some

[00:08:14] reason I was like yeah Gimli. He's like the cool guy. That's my kindred guy. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:18] And so I don't know. I've just always been a pretty big nerd. Definitely got made fun of a

[00:08:24] lot in middle school for it but you know I turned out just fine. With the Silmarillion,

[00:08:30] it's actually a cool story. My friend, my best friend from high school gave me my first

[00:08:35] copy of the Silmarillion as a wedding gift when I got married and he wrote this nicest

[00:08:41] message on the inside cover and so I still have that copy. And then I brought the book with me

[00:08:48] so on our honeymoon we went to Italy for like, I think it was like two weeks long. It was a

[00:08:52] crazy trip and I brought the Silmarillion with me and so we were on a lot of trains

[00:08:58] just like going across Italy and stuff and so I was reading a lot on the train and I

[00:09:02] was trying to read through the Silmarillion and then of course you know a lot of people

[00:09:06] struggle with their first read and I did so I definitely got lost. Yeah. But I just kept at

[00:09:12] it and I tried for a couple years, kept trying, trying and then you know I'd forget

[00:09:17] about it and then I'd find it again and try again and eventually I started picking up other

[00:09:22] Tolkien podcasts and I'm trying to think of which ones they were. I don't remember but

[00:09:28] Prancing Pony helped me through my first read through. Oh yeah. I loved the Prancing

[00:09:31] Pony and then I also really liked the Tolkien Road. Never heard. Oh yeah, yeah their episodes

[00:09:37] are they're pretty long and they're very conversational. It's like a husband and wife team

[00:09:41] and the husband is the big Tolkien fan and then his wife hadn't read it before when

[00:09:46] they first started and so she asked a lot of good questions that like a first time reader

[00:09:50] would ask so it's kind of a good conversation. But yeah I just I don't know I just as a kid

[00:09:56] I just fell in love with Tolkien and then just never stopped reading.

[00:10:01] Yeah, I think that's a good origin story for a lot of us. A lot of us. I mean you have a very

[00:10:08] similar story to me. I didn't get the Silmarillion at my wedding but you know I really

[00:10:12] got into it sort of in adulthood the Silmarillion so it's quite the work

[00:10:19] and it requires a lot of breaking down because I don't know for you but every time

[00:10:25] I go through it I feel like it becomes more of a play. Like it becomes more of a play in my head

[00:10:32] I can see the character drama more. I can sort of feel for the characters more because you

[00:10:37] do have to headcanon a lot of the emotions and a lot of the dialogue and things like that

[00:10:43] because really he's just giving you, except some parts, but he's largely giving you you

[00:10:48] know a history text and so it's it's really cool to see a chapter like this where it's

[00:10:54] much more dramatic than the chapters before it. Yeah I was rereading this chapter actually

[00:10:59] I was listening to the audiobook as I was getting ready for this episode and I was like oh man

[00:11:03] I get to talk about one of the best chapters because there's so much that goes on in this

[00:11:07] chapter so yeah it's just like one thing after another and it's all crazy. Yeah so

[00:11:14] we had been emailing back and forth and this was the chapter that we settled on but then

[00:11:19] today I had emailed you with an outline and I said I don't think we could do this whole

[00:11:22] chapter in a podcast or it's going to be like a two-hour podcast so we're going to do half the

[00:11:27] chapter this episode. That works yeah. And we're gonna we're gonna handle the third battle but

[00:11:31] not sorry the second battle but not the third battle. Okay. All right so why don't we dive

[00:11:37] right into the chapter? The Noldor exiles return to Middle Earth upon their arrival they

[00:11:44] burn the ships of the T'Leri to prevent others from following. This is really a rough

[00:11:50] moment in the life of Feanor. I mean like I feel like he's already kind of exhibited his

[00:11:57] villainous behavior I guess but it's at this point where they're like you know which ship

[00:12:03] should we send back to you know help everyone over and he's just like none and none and then

[00:12:10] I forget what he I can't remember the exact quote but he's just like you know let those who

[00:12:14] cursed me curse me still like I am 100% done with you people and these ships that were so

[00:12:20] special to the T'Leri that they were willing to die for the ships he's like just burn them

[00:12:26] like yeah oh like he is such a bad guy. Yeah he's in his villain era as the kids say

[00:12:34] and uh yeah it's it's really shutting the door behind him I guess at that point he didn't

[00:12:39] know that Fingolfin was already on his way and Feanorfin. Right I think he must have just assumed

[00:12:45] that they were just gonna kind of either turn around or that they would just die back there

[00:12:51] I don't think he realized that they could figure out a different way to get through.

[00:12:55] Right and uh they do they do this chapter so I guess we'll we'll see how that turns out. Yep.

[00:13:02] The burning ships of course draw the attention of both Fingolfin and Morgoth's forces.

[00:13:08] Morgoth's orcs then attack the Noldor in their encampment. The Noldor are victorious

[00:13:13] emboldening Feanor to seek out Morgoth. I love how Feanor has this immediate consequence

[00:13:20] like the second he steps foot in Middle Earth stuff starts going down and the fact that it's

[00:13:27] him his his huge act of cruelty in burning the ships that that's what alerts Morgoth like

[00:13:34] he rang the front doorbell. Right. I love that like Tolkien was a genius for writing it that way.

[00:13:40] Yeah he could have had the element of surprise but he completely got rid of that but at the

[00:13:45] same time you have this kind of double-edged sword because Fingolfin does see it and then

[00:13:50] know where to find the sons of Feanor. Right that's true yeah that's a good way to look at

[00:13:56] it but I just love it I feel like it's so poetic. Yeah definitely definitely. Tolkien is a big fan of

[00:14:05] things coming back to bite you. Yes especially for poor old Feanor. Yeah yeah there's some great

[00:14:12] quotes over here about Feanor and he laughed aloud as he wielded his sword rejoicing that he had

[00:14:19] dared the wrath of the Valar and the evils of the road that he might see the hour of his

[00:14:24] vengeance and uh yeah pretty pretty good character moment pretty good portrait of Feanor there.

[00:14:32] This is something that makes me wish we had a movie of the Silmarillion because can you imagine

[00:14:37] seeing that on screen? Yeah just like fire behind his eyes. Yeah it would that would just

[00:14:42] be an incredible moment I mean there are so many moments even in this chapter that would be

[00:14:46] incredible. I would take a movie just of like Alqualon but like the the Silmarillion stealing

[00:14:56] of Morgoth through like the fall of Feanor could be the first movie. Yeah that would be good yeah

[00:15:02] it's a good that's a good arc. Really to give this the Silmarillion proper treatment you

[00:15:06] would need like a a 10 season tv show. Yep yep I've always thought I think it would do

[00:15:14] well as an animated show so you don't have to deal with sort of the uh other worldliness

[00:15:19] of a lot of the elves and things like that I think you could do that much better in animation.

[00:15:23] Yeah I agree. Feanor of course uh for he was fe consumed by the flame of his own wrath.

[00:15:32] Yeah that's another good one that's I love the um usage of fire references for Feanor too.

[00:15:39] Yeah and it also goes into that whole Fea and Hroa of elves deal right like their

[00:15:46] spirits burn up their body energy. Yeah and we see pretty soon what happens to

[00:15:54] Feanor's body. Right exactly exactly so he's it's almost like he's just burning up

[00:16:00] like a candle right right now he's like I'm putting all of my will

[00:16:05] all of my all of my Hroa is going away so that I can get rid of Morgoth. Well and it's crazy too

[00:16:11] because he has kind of been like that even since he was born because when his mother

[00:16:16] gave birth to him like it it caused it cost her so much energy and strength that like

[00:16:23] so much went out from her when Feanor was born that she couldn't bear living anymore

[00:16:30] so it shows like just even from his before his birth he was really you could say like

[00:16:37] he was almost destined for something great and it just ended up being something great and horrible.

[00:16:43] Right right yeah it's very sad it's very sad the whole arc of Feanor he's a great tragic

[00:16:50] character and Feanor is the one I always think of when people go well I like Lord of the Rings

[00:16:56] but Game of Thrones has all the nuanced characters and I'm like have you read the

[00:17:01] Silmarillion? Yeah I think a lot of people don't give the Silmarillion a fair chance.

[00:17:06] Yeah yeah I mean even the Lord of the Rings has a lot of character complexity and I think people

[00:17:11] are very reductive of it in that way but the Silmarillion even more like it just has such

[00:17:17] complex characters. Yeah I would say Feanor because he's he's the greatest of the Eldar

[00:17:24] in Lord's or in he's the greatest of the Eldar in arts and lore Tolkien says so like if you think

[00:17:31] about how great the other elves were for Tolkien to say that he was the greatest in both arts

[00:17:37] and lore and he created the Silmarils, the Palantiri, and his own like system of letters

[00:17:43] like this guy is so cool and so special and so for him to have turned into darkness it's

[00:17:49] almost like he's not to make like a Star Wars comparison because this won't be perfect but

[00:17:54] it's almost like he's like the chosen one or something there's no prophecy for him but

[00:17:57] he had this massive potential and then he just goes in the complete wrong direction. He goes

[00:18:02] full Vader. Yeah yeah yeah so Feanor of course is mortally wounded by Gothmog Lord of the

[00:18:10] Balrogs and taken to safety by his sons on his deathbed Feanor reminds his sons of their

[00:18:16] oath his body then burns up with the fire of his will. I think it's another testament to

[00:18:24] Feanor's intensity and his own sense of pride and self-will that even as he's dying he doesn't

[00:18:31] realize well maybe this was a bad idea yeah like this is what killed me yeah he's like well

[00:18:37] this better kill you guys too or else you know like he he doesn't have a moment of clarity

[00:18:42] before death instead he holds on to this grudge so intensely that he dooms the rest of his family

[00:18:49] and Tolkien keeps hammering that through this chapter even where you know you have the

[00:18:54] the Feanorians and the sons of Fingolfin coming together and you're like they can't trust each

[00:19:01] other Tolkien says they can't trust each other because of this oath they just can't

[00:19:05] bear to bear to turn back bear to apologize for anything yeah the oath is serious business

[00:19:12] with Tolkien like you do not mess around with oaths I know I know Elrond even says it later

[00:19:18] he's like hey no oaths no oaths we're not doing that yeah um there's a great quote here

[00:19:25] too the way that the language describing Feanor's death fire is fantastic then he died but he had

[00:19:34] neither burial nor tomb for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash

[00:19:41] and was born away like smoke and his likeness was has never again appeared in Arda neither has

[00:19:47] his spirit left the halls of Mandos that's another moment where you're just like man

[00:19:53] Tolkien is such a good writer yeah like sometimes it just hits you and you're just like

[00:19:58] geez this guy has the most amazing talent chills yeah chills there and uh of course we

[00:20:06] have the introduction of the idea that he's just sitting there very grumpy with Mandos all day like

[00:20:12] Mandos just got a roommate that he is never leaving yeah that would be a that's a that's a

[00:20:18] really funny situation to imagine yeah it's a sitcom now right yeah I mean yeah it could be

[00:20:23] that could be a full episode in our Silmarillion tv show we're already writing it

[00:20:29] that's right all right Morgoth feigns defeat and offers a Silmaril to Madros

[00:20:35] Madros in kind tries to deceive Morgoth and bring a host to the negotiations but Morgoth brings more

[00:20:42] and took Madros prisoner hanging him from a precipice of thingarodrim I think this

[00:20:49] situation is really funny because they both are trying to trick each other yes it's the

[00:20:55] spider-man pointing meme yeah and like the thing about Morgoth is he's he's a vala like

[00:21:02] he you're I just feel like you're not going to outsmart him by especially you're just I don't

[00:21:08] know it's just it's like trying to do that was was goofy of them yeah but I you know they're

[00:21:14] in a tricky situation too so I don't know if I would have done the same thing too

[00:21:19] yeah it's it's tough right because if you didn't have the oath you could maybe go

[00:21:22] ah he's probably lying let's let's move on we'll get him at another time but

[00:21:26] this oath is keeping them making these mistakes and Madros has to accept this offer just to try

[00:21:35] it seems like Morgoth knows about the oath I'm not sure if we're really told that in the

[00:21:39] Silmarillion but it seems like he he obviously knows that they are pursuing him for the

[00:21:45] Silmarils so he's kind of using it to taunt them yeah I wonder if it's just he knew how

[00:21:52] into the Silmarils Feanor was and that that was his you know that was his motivation was to get them

[00:21:59] back and so he figured ah the sons are probably into it too let's let's offer it up maybe it'll

[00:22:04] work the sons of Feanor again just like him just like their father really complex characters

[00:22:10] and I really enjoy even this episode this episode this chapter we have Madros really

[00:22:17] showing us that for the first time it's a shame that we don't get more about them because

[00:22:23] I feel like you could get a really detailed description of their character maybe if Tolkien

[00:22:27] would have had more time to write it yeah well well more than that along with the

[00:22:33] bigger descriptions of Galadriel in the first and second age if only yep yep the forces

[00:22:40] and then arise arrive and make their way through the forces of Morgoth upon reuniting with the

[00:22:48] Feanorians there's clear tension between the factions I mean yeah there would be some bad

[00:22:56] blood between these two groups like um I don't know if you've ever seen the flight of the

[00:23:01] concords it's a tv show um and there's this moment where one of the characters

[00:23:07] goes you left me for dead and then the other character goes well I wouldn't I wouldn't have

[00:23:12] done it if I would have known you were going to give me a hassle about it or something like

[00:23:15] that and I always I always picture those two characters in my mind when this situation comes

[00:23:20] up um it's like like bro what why did you do that like we're relatives we're we're kin

[00:23:30] I know you just killed some of our other kins folk but but but come on yeah and and

[00:23:35] you get that here you Tolkien says and they would have welcomed them but they dared not for

[00:23:40] shame and there's this whole the the deeper you sink into evil the easier it gets right the

[00:23:48] the more you can't be honest with your kin the more you can't be welcoming the more

[00:23:53] you have to continue to be cruel and it's it's really hard to watch well and shame

[00:23:59] is something really powerful that Tolkien uses because if you go back to the Ainul Indalai

[00:24:04] it says that Morgoth felt secret shame right he felt shame and from it came secret anger and

[00:24:12] that's kind of what fueled him towards committing even more crimes and so it's this sense of like

[00:24:21] kind of like stirring or um like ruminating on something that you've done and kind of like

[00:24:28] holding it and not really being able to get over it that kind of causes you to feel a lot

[00:24:32] of guilt and like be unwilling to let things go or move past them right yeah that's definitely

[00:24:40] a thing and uh you know I once took a class and I've talked about this with Marilyn Arpoquilla

[00:24:48] who's a Tolkien scholar that that often comes on up on this pod but this class on sort of

[00:24:54] feminism and how it and and how it allows us to view violence and how it allows us to view

[00:25:03] different tracks that were put on as children and I know I'm going somewhere with this I promise

[00:25:10] okay uh there was this difference between shame and guilt that was brought into the discussion

[00:25:20] and this difference had to do with whether with shame you are angry at others because of how

[00:25:29] you're being perceived and with guilt you're angry at yourself for hurting others oh that's

[00:25:35] interesting and both can be really really mentally taxing and both can be really toxic

[00:25:45] uh but shame with the noldor is I think the fey and orians aren't really angry at themselves

[00:25:53] they're angry that the sons of finn gulf and got there yeah they're kind of like oh we thought

[00:25:59] we wouldn't have any consequences and now we have to deal with it I didn't see that coming

[00:26:06] because later they're not they're not remorseful you look at current theater later

[00:26:11] talking to uh to eng rod I can't I gotta get all my eggs together on this chapter

[00:26:17] eng rod uh and and he's just like yeah you know your mother might not be noldor no low but

[00:26:23] you better act like one of us anyway you know they're all so cocky except madras I think madras

[00:26:28] is the one who had the best chance of redemption well who is it at that I get the two mixed up

[00:26:35] I guess well I don't want to spoil the ending if of the silmarillion but I feel like towards

[00:26:40] the end of the silmarillion after a lot of things have happened there's there's the two

[00:26:45] brothers left and I feel like those are two characters that you can really learn a lot from

[00:26:50] but I won't spoil anything yep yep I know what you're saying I'm picking up what you're putting

[00:26:55] down yeah but yeah I think that he he among the sons of fey and or has the most depth

[00:27:06] in terms of character development yeah I can see that so there's another quote here that

[00:27:13] you know you're saying all these scenes would be great in a movie but as the host of fengulfin

[00:27:19] marched into mithrim the sun rose flaming in the west and fengulfin unfurled his blue and

[00:27:25] silver banners and blew his horns and flowers sprang beneath his marching feet and the ages

[00:27:31] of the stars were ended and this is even cooler when you realize that this is the sun

[00:27:36] rising for the first time yeah too this isn't just oh it was morning time it's like before

[00:27:43] this there was no sunrise so yeah that's another really cool moment you can imagine like the whole

[00:27:48] scene being dark and then just the sun coming and and of course morgoth is confounded by the sun

[00:27:54] he's just like what what what even is this you know yep yep and then uh of course he's

[00:28:01] he's pretty good at blotting out the sun near his house oh yeah yeah he probably had to

[00:28:06] figure that out though I mean I'm sure there was a period of time where he was like oh boy

[00:28:10] I don't know what to do at all about this because it says he was confounded by it

[00:28:16] and he's a vala and yet he's having a hard time so he I guess he can be outwitted yeah by the sun

[00:28:24] yeah by the sun all right uh fingon the son of fengulfin climbed thangoradrim alone to save

[00:28:33] his old friend madros he finds him through the power of song and tries to rescue him

[00:28:40] seeing no hope madros asks fingon to slay him fingon pleads for help from manway just in time

[00:28:47] manway sends thorondor king of eagles to carry them to safety this is such a like an intense

[00:28:56] scene where he's like in this hopeless situation and he's just like you know what if you can't

[00:29:02] help me just kill me and put me out of my misery and then it's as he's about to go

[00:29:07] through with it that there's this moment of divine intervention yeah where the eagle comes

[00:29:13] and then after that they can't even really get him down through that way either so he's once

[00:29:19] again he's just like oh just kill me and he's like no dude I'll just cut your hand off and

[00:29:22] then we'll be good and so then they then all is fixed but yeah it's it's a really beautiful

[00:29:29] and it's like so heroic it's it's really valiant and it shows his character really well

[00:29:36] fingon is so cool I wish you were in rings of power oh man I don't think he appears in

[00:29:42] the appendices so that's probably why well neither do you like a lot of these characters

[00:29:47] so it's fine yeah yeah yeah yeah um so this section is so greek to me you know yes it's

[00:29:56] orpheus and uri to chi uh with with the playing of of I think it's a harp right that

[00:30:01] that uh fingon is playing but he's playing something and he's singing just to find

[00:30:07] uh madras through this whole maze of of morgoth and that's awesome I swear that as a kid I saw

[00:30:17] this very story in a cartoon like a mythology cartoon but I could not tell you the name

[00:30:25] of it it's just like a weird memory from my childhood of was it the storyteller it's not

[00:30:30] a cartoon but I'm pretty sure it was a cartoon but maybe because the first time I read this in

[00:30:37] the somerlean I was like wait I've like seen this before yeah but I it's like something I

[00:30:43] probably watched on my grandma's house that I would have no idea what it was but like

[00:30:48] I don't know there's something so familiar about this whole scenario so it must be some

[00:30:52] it must be drawn from some mythology that I can't quite place well there's another greek

[00:30:58] component to this which is prometheus being punished for you know giving the humans fire

[00:31:04] and he's tied to a rock and an eagle comes every day to eat his liver yeah maybe maybe I

[00:31:11] saw like a cartoon of prometheus as a kid maybe showing their kids these cartoons that

[00:31:16] maybe my grandparents were yeah but but I think it's kind of interesting there that

[00:31:21] the eagle is sent to torment prometheus but here the eagle saves uh fingon and madros

[00:31:29] yeah whenever an eagle shows up in tolkien that's a very good sign

[00:31:33] but why couldn't they bring them to mord I'm just kidding I'm just kidding don't

[00:31:37] don't you even get started I'm not doing it uh I think what I took most out of this

[00:31:43] section though other than the greek mythology was that fingon asks for help and shows

[00:31:48] humility which is something that the fey and orians never do it's like I can't get out of

[00:31:56] this man way please help they just have so much pride and anyone with humility is so

[00:32:04] different like incredibly different from them when you when you get a character who's being

[00:32:09] humble and asking for help it's like whoa it makes them look like the best guy ever right

[00:32:15] right and and you know this is a running joke that I have on this podcast is the case against

[00:32:20] man way and his leadership uh but here I'm kind of like maybe he would have helped this whole

[00:32:27] time if somebody would have just asked yeah I guess that yeah or maybe he saw like fingon was

[00:32:33] pure of heart or something like that you know and he was like okay I like this guy

[00:32:37] yeah yeah I think I think you know I know you do a lot of catholic work with with Tolkien

[00:32:44] I'm wondering if this is something that I've I've heard in a lot of Christian theology of

[00:32:50] you know God will help those who help themselves right yeah I don't think that's actually in the

[00:32:56] Bible though I think that's like a just a saying yeah yeah yeah I think I think it's like

[00:33:02] I think it's like maybe more like God helps those who ask kind of there are a lot of different

[00:33:09] like stories in scripture about you know an old widow who who just keeps asking and asking

[00:33:15] and asking type of thing and then finally her request is granted and it's kind of like I

[00:33:21] I can almost see it like the the valor like yeah dude just ask and I'll help you out

[00:33:27] yeah maybe kind of a it might be kind of inspired by that yeah you know I think that there is

[00:33:34] something to fingon really putting his life on the line and doing as much as he possibly can

[00:33:40] and then being like I can't I don't have the power to do this please help yeah and that's so

[00:33:47] that's really something you see if we get all the way to the Lord of the Rings too

[00:33:50] like where you see Frodo getting he does everything to get himself to Mordor and even

[00:33:56] though in the end he physically himself can't just destroy the ring it's like kind of providence

[00:34:03] or fate kind of just swoops in and and kind of does the last bit like we love providence yes

[00:34:08] in Tolkien absolutely fingon as you've alluded to uh has to cut off Madros hand to free him

[00:34:17] from Morgoth's device Madros apologizes for the abandonment of the house of Fingolfin

[00:34:22] and offers the kingship of the Noldor to Fingolfin an unpopular decision amongst his brothers

[00:34:30] yes when he comes back they're like wait you did what yeah exactly exactly because had he died

[00:34:36] there I don't recall if Madros has children but if he doesn't then it goes to the next oldest

[00:34:43] son of Feanor I think Curifin is the only one who has kids but okay I could be mistaken

[00:34:52] right in you can write in at lotrthelorehounds.com yeah so I think you know he kind of passed over

[00:35:01] his brothers to give the kingship to Fingolfin and I think that was the right decision I think

[00:35:06] that worked out a lot better for the Noldor and created a much more stability than had the

[00:35:11] Noldor been led by someone who was crazily going after the Silmarils but it certainly did

[00:35:18] add some tension between these already tense relations absolutely I feel like he did this

[00:35:24] entire kind of operation in order to try to create peace between the two groups and I think

[00:35:31] it did go a long way but then it kind of also upset the other sons of Feanor along the

[00:35:37] process right well a good compromise makes everyone upset right yeah yeah that's true

[00:35:43] uh so last point here the Noldor set a watch on Angband and keep Morgoth contained

[00:35:52] Thingol remains suspicious and only allows the house of Feanorfin to enter Doriath there

[00:35:57] Angrod acts as messenger and relays the Noldor the wishes of Thingol who grants them the

[00:36:04] uninhabited lands in Beleriand the Noldor of course scoff at being told what to do

[00:36:09] and Angrod leaves angrily I think this whole situation is very interesting because

[00:36:15] Thingol is acting really prudently and it's like he gets kind of a bad vibe from the

[00:36:20] Feanorians but he doesn't really quite know why he doesn't like them um in in the end he's

[00:36:25] justified and not liking them but he still doesn't really know why and uh this whole

[00:36:30] thing is is fun um I love how the sons of Feanor are so like irritated at the response

[00:36:37] too they're just once again they're all so prideful yeah they are and and like I said like I don't

[00:36:44] think that there was a ton of introspection following Thingolfin coming over here and his

[00:36:51] son saving one of the sons of Feanor just uh current theory really just does not know how

[00:36:56] to read the room like ah go back to your to your uh non-noldo mother well it's even like

[00:37:04] after you just saw your dad Feanor get killed by Balrogs like yeah it's a horrible death wouldn't

[00:37:12] you be like hmm maybe I need to rethink my life and then and then you know you just didn't

[00:37:19] yeah and and it's interesting to see the different approaches of the different sons of

[00:37:23] Feanor like I think people like Maedros kind of sadly go forward with the oath they're

[00:37:28] like all right well I'm stuck doing this but I'm gonna try to be nice to everyone

[00:37:33] while doing it you see somebody like Karen there who's just so so bitter about it all

[00:37:40] and so vengeful and so and so cruel yeah yeah it's sad to see yeah

[00:37:49] what any other thoughts on this chapter before we head out of here I love this chapter I mean

[00:37:54] it's it's it's cool because you've got the sun rising for the first time you've got Thingolfin

[00:37:59] and his people arriving in Middle Earth you've got Feanor dying which is like a really intense

[00:38:08] sad moment right and so yeah I mean I was really glad that we got to talk about this chapter I

[00:38:13] think it's kind of setting the stage for what what's to come after this yeah yeah I'm

[00:38:20] surprised we got through it this quickly honestly I thought this was going to take

[00:38:23] much longer and I probably would have just outlined the rest of the chapter but oh yeah

[00:38:28] I'm not very good at banter you know I know whenever I do podcast it just goes quickly

[00:38:32] no it's it's cool I like being pithy you know you know we gotta just get through it with the

[00:38:38] somerilion it's a long journey so you just gotta keep marching ahead yep all right so

[00:38:43] bullet points of what you need to know from this chapter if you're just here and you're

[00:38:46] like I can't keep up with all these things and fangs and whatever else is here uh the

[00:38:53] Noldor got to Beleriand, Fingon say sorry Feanor dies let's start there,

[00:38:59] Feanor dies, Maedros is captured, Maedros is saved by Fingon and the kingship goes to the

[00:39:08] house of Thingolfin those are the main points I think if you just get that out of this

[00:39:13] you're all set oh yeah for sure that's a good summary all right so thank you again Caitlin

[00:39:21] again where can people find you one more time for sure yeah thanks so much for having me on this

[00:39:25] is really fun um anyone can find me at teawithtolkien.com or I'm also on twitter

[00:39:30] and instagram at teawithtolkien perfect well thanks again I hope you can come back again soon

[00:39:36] this was a lot of fun and I'll see you there yeah for sure thanks so that was a great

[00:39:42] conversation with Caitlin from Tea with Tolkien please again check out the show notes

[00:39:46] for links to all of her information all of her resources that she's created on Tolkien

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