Silmarillion Stories - E18 - Maeglin

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[00:01:14] Welcome to Silmarillion Stories, where the Lorehounds your guides to Tolkien's world of Middle-earth.

[00:01:19] I'm John and this is our Podcast 4 of Maeglin, the 18th portion of the Silmarillion.

[00:01:25] In this episode, we're going to be discussing the Dark Elf Aeol and the family dynamics in Gondolin.

[00:01:32] If you want to get in on the Tolkien Talk, please send an email to lotr at thelorehounds.com or visit thelorehounds.com slash contact.

[00:01:41] One more note, if you want to support us directly, click on the link tree in the show notes and follow it to Supercast or Patreon, where you can get early and ad-free access to all of our podcasts, plus bonus content like Second Breakfast and Elevensees.

[00:01:55] Before we get into the main episode, I want to add an early content warning that we'll be discussing sensitive topics today.

[00:02:03] In particular, sexual assault comes up as part of the subtext of this chapter.

[00:02:07] However, we'll be discussing every other part of the chapter before that, and there will be a big content warning followed by a break to give you a chance to turn off the podcast if you don't want to hear about those topics today.

[00:02:18] As always, please take care of yourself and do what's best for you.

[00:02:21] Today, our returning guest is Marilyn Arpukila, our favorite Tolkien scholar and host of Rings and Rituals.

[00:02:28] And back with a vengeance, it's Marilyn Arpukila, our favorite Tolkien scholar.

[00:02:33] Marilyn, welcome back.

[00:02:35] Thank you, thank you, though.

[00:02:36] Not with vengeance, I hope.

[00:02:38] Mercy and compassion and all those good things.

[00:02:41] But this is the chapter for vengeance.

[00:02:44] Well, vengeance takes place in it.

[00:02:46] That doesn't mean I have to participate in it, right?

[00:02:48] Fair enough, fair enough.

[00:02:50] I mean, it's interesting because a lot of people think, oh, Turin to Oromar, that's absolutely the worst.

[00:02:56] Well, this one's pretty darn dark, too.

[00:02:59] I think Turin has the reputation because one of its length, and it's sort of told as a series of unfortunate events, right?

[00:03:11] Lemony Snicket time, is it?

[00:03:12] Yeah, exactly.

[00:03:14] Exactly.

[00:03:15] Whereas this one, the tragedy is very subtle a lot of the time.

[00:03:20] Somewhat.

[00:03:21] And then sometimes it's pretty much right in your face.

[00:03:24] Right.

[00:03:25] So.

[00:03:25] And.

[00:03:26] One wonders how intentional that is from Tolkien.

[00:03:30] You know, how much of the tragedy was intentional and how much was observed from real life.

[00:03:38] Yeah, it's.

[00:03:41] It's always difficult to try and interpret Tolkien's responses to his own work.

[00:03:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:50] You know, you think, well, why in the world would he write something like this?

[00:03:53] What is he trying to say?

[00:03:56] What is his particular, you know, is he giving us a moral?

[00:04:00] Is he just spinning a story?

[00:04:06] What do these events tell us about, you know, the ways of the elves, about the oath of Feanor, about Mendel's prophecy, and how all these things come together to produce events that are really pretty dark?

[00:04:30] They are very dark.

[00:04:32] And to me, I think what makes this chapter so interesting is that Tolkien really captures patriarchal cultures and the flaws within them.

[00:04:44] Mm-hmm.

[00:04:45] I think accidentally.

[00:04:47] I think so, too.

[00:04:47] Because he's very much part of it.

[00:04:49] Yeah.

[00:04:50] Yeah, definitely.

[00:04:50] But I think some of the best writers, I mean, you see this with Tolstoy, right? Tolstoy in Anna Karenina really accidentally captures what patriarchy is and accidentally tells a moral.

[00:05:03] Mm-hmm.

[00:05:03] Mm-hmm.

[00:05:04] And I think it's the same here.

[00:05:06] I don't think Tolkien really saw some of these things as flaws of society, but instead saw them as parts of society.

[00:05:15] Yes, and it really isn't fair to expect him to look at these things through 21st century lenses.

[00:05:21] Sure, sure, definitely.

[00:05:23] Even as we cannot do anything other than look at them through 21st century lenses.

[00:05:29] Right, right.

[00:05:31] But here we are, and Tolkien's unfortunately not here with us to debate with us, so we'll have to do our best to opine on his intentions and the meaning of it in our own world.

[00:05:42] And I think Tolkien is a lot like Bible study, right?

[00:05:45] Yeah.

[00:05:46] Where you can read it and try to apply it to your own life and try to observe patterns in the real world.

[00:05:53] And I'm going to bring up the OJ trial today, so...

[00:05:56] Oh, well, there we go.

[00:05:58] We're gonna do this.

[00:06:00] We're gonna have a lot of fun with a very dark chapter.

[00:06:03] Well, and I also think that Tolkien would have had different views about this throughout the course of his life, and that's another thing I think we need to keep in mind.

[00:06:12] Yeah.

[00:06:13] Yeah, definitely.

[00:06:13] He was at a certain place at a certain time when he wrote a certain version of it, and then subsequent versions.

[00:06:19] And we are also reading a version which is the product of his son Christopher's work as well.

[00:06:25] Mm-hmm.

[00:06:26] And with a touch of Gaigar Carabell thrown in as well, so...

[00:06:29] Right.

[00:06:32] So, we are, of course, I don't think we've said the title yet, we are, of course, talking about Of Meglin, this lovely chapter in the middle of the Silmarillion that almost feels like we're backtracking a little bit, right?

[00:06:44] This is, we've been telling these grander stories of war and where the realms are, and now we're gonna tell a more intimate story that touches on all those things and kind of shows you the interpersonal impact of all these realms and all these wars and all these politics.

[00:06:59] Yes, that was the thing that really struck me as I was preparing for this recording tonight is, um, it really is a story about individuals.

[00:07:07] Mm-hmm.

[00:07:09] And in looking at that, you are able to draw out, um, what the relations were like between the Noldor and the Sindar.

[00:07:21] Right.

[00:07:21] And you're getting all these little hints about how things actually were.

[00:07:24] It, you're moving from annals to history, and sometimes even personal narrative.

[00:07:31] And so there's bound to be more information in there that goes beyond just the simple recounting of the facts.

[00:07:38] Mm-hmm.

[00:07:40] Something I find interesting about this chapter before I get into the synopsis.

[00:07:45] So what we're gonna do here is I'm gonna give the synopsis and then we'll dive deeper into themes.

[00:07:48] We are gonna get into some pretty rough themes today, but we will give you a big flashing warning before we do that in case you want to skip that part of the discussion.

[00:07:56] Yes.

[00:07:57] Uh, so something I wanted to just observe when you get right into this chapter is, it is called Of Meglin, but the first word in it is Arithel.

[00:08:06] Yeah.

[00:08:07] It is, it immediately focuses you on the, pretty much the only main female character in this chapter.

[00:08:16] There is mention of Idril, but I think she's more of a secondary character in this chapter.

[00:08:20] And really, Arithel is one of the female characters of whom we know more than any other of her motivations.

[00:08:30] Mm-hmm.

[00:08:31] And her responses to events.

[00:08:34] Um.

[00:08:35] There is no Bechdel test in sight.

[00:08:37] Oh, no.

[00:08:38] No.

[00:08:39] No.

[00:08:40] Bechdel wasn't born at that point, and I don't think Tolkien would have been interested in it if she had been.

[00:08:46] Alas.

[00:08:49] So, just to recap what happened in the chapter, and of course, we would recommend you read it, but if you didn't, we'll tell you what happened anyway.

[00:08:56] Mm-hmm.

[00:08:58] Arithel is the sister of Turgon, who is king of Gondolin.

[00:09:05] And Arithel is getting a little bit stir-crazy.

[00:09:08] She wants to leave Gondolin.

[00:09:11] Turgon says, I don't think so.

[00:09:13] She says, well, I'm going to do it anyway.

[00:09:15] He says, fine, but you have to go visit Fingon.

[00:09:19] She says, sure.

[00:09:20] But then, as she goes off with some of her escorts, she goes, all right, well, we're actually going to go visit my friends who are the sons of Feanor.

[00:09:27] Mm-hmm.

[00:09:28] They get separated, and Arithel finds herself lost in a forest, in a very dark forest, where she meets a dark elf named Aeol.

[00:09:39] Aeol basically tricks her into captivity, takes her as wife, and has a son with her named Maeglin.

[00:09:50] Maeglin comes of age, and Maeglin says to his mom, hey, we should go find Gondolin again.

[00:09:57] Mom says, I'm proud of you, son.

[00:09:59] Let's go.

[00:10:00] Let's leave your dad in the dust.

[00:10:02] They go off.

[00:10:03] They find Gondolin.

[00:10:04] They're followed by Aeol, who then gets to Gondolin, is captured, and he's told, you have to stay here because nobody can leave Gondolin without the leave of Torgon, and that's not going to happen.

[00:10:18] So he says, well, I'm not going to do that.

[00:10:21] He throws a poisoned spear at his son Maeglin to take him down with him, and Arithel dives in the way of her son, taking a non-lethal wound to the shoulder, which proves to be lethal later from the poison.

[00:10:36] Then Aeol is going to be killed by the Noldor, executed by the Noldor, because he is a murderer and a kinslayer.

[00:10:45] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:47] And that's basically the end of the chapter.

[00:10:49] We do get a tease, too, of Idril and a conflict with Maeglin.

[00:10:55] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:55] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:56] One of the sentences that occurs more than once, more or less, is, but Maeglin stood by and said nothing.

[00:11:05] That's true.

[00:11:06] He's very passive.

[00:11:09] In terms of, you know, making statements and so forth, and in that it's said that he's much like his father.

[00:11:15] They're both men of few words.

[00:11:18] Right.

[00:11:19] And we're told that, right, is that he really is the appearance of the Noldor, but at his heart he is Aeol.

[00:11:27] Yes and no.

[00:11:28] He is other than his father.

[00:11:30] He has characteristics that are similar.

[00:11:38] His father gave him the name Sharp Glance.

[00:11:41] Mm-hmm.

[00:11:42] For he perceived that the eyes of his son were more piercing than his own, and his thought could read the secret hearts beyond the mist of words.

[00:11:49] As Maeglin grew to full stature, he resembled in face and form rather his kindred of the Noldor, but in mood and mind he was the son of his father.

[00:11:58] So, that's how Tolkien describes him to us.

[00:12:02] Gotcha.

[00:12:03] His words were few save in matters that touched him near, and then his voice had a power to move those that heard him and to overthrow those that withstood him.

[00:12:11] And, you know, his looks are very similar to Aeol, but his eyes were the eyes of the Noldor.

[00:12:18] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:18] And since the eyes are the supposedly represent the soul, I think we're meant to understand that while his father might think he's a Noldor, I mean, think that he's, you know, a Sindar and like himself, at heart Maeglin is really a Noldor and considers himself a Noldor and wants to learn more about him.

[00:12:38] Yeah, he is very loyal to the Noldor, right?

[00:12:42] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:42] He's not leaving Gondolin after he gets there.

[00:12:45] No.

[00:12:46] No, I mean, he went with his father to the cities of the dwarves because Aeol lived very close to the dwarves in the eastern part of Valerian and became a very, very gifted smith.

[00:12:58] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:58] And Aeol, excuse me, Maeglin had that same talent and so, he would often visit the cities of the dwarves with his father.

[00:13:06] And there he learned eagerly what they would teach and above all the crafting of finding the oars of metals in the mountains.

[00:13:11] So, he was a prospector, right?

[00:13:15] In a sense.

[00:13:17] Yet, it is said that Maeglin loved his mother better.

[00:13:20] And if Aeol were abroad, he would sit long beside her and listen to all that she could tell him of her kin and their deeds in the Eldamar.

[00:13:28] And of the might and valor of the princes, the house of Fingolfin.

[00:13:31] All these things he laid to heart.

[00:13:34] But most of all, that which he heard of Turgon, and that he had no heir.

[00:13:40] For Elenwe, his wife, perished in the crossing of the Helcaraxe, and his daughter Idril Celebrindal was his only child.

[00:13:48] So, there you see, he has, he loves his mother.

[00:13:54] So, he has love, he has a sense of kinship with Aeol, but he also is very transactional.

[00:14:04] Yes.

[00:14:04] You could say, in his interactions.

[00:14:08] I think what really struck me too, you brought up his smithing, is his father, though he is not Aeol,

[00:14:17] he is said to be this great smith.

[00:14:20] And then he has his son, who's of the Noldor, who are already, you know, the smithing type of elf.

[00:14:26] Right.

[00:14:26] They are the ones who were, you know, trained by Aeol, given the gift of Aeol.

[00:14:32] And so, now he has his son, who he resents being one of the Noldor.

[00:14:38] Yeah.

[00:14:38] But that really does give his son an edge over him, even.

[00:14:42] It certainly seems to, doesn't it?

[00:14:45] Yeah.

[00:14:45] Yeah.

[00:14:46] He was actually, he's kin of Thingol, who is the king of Doriath and married to Melian the Maiar.

[00:14:56] So, very, very powerful elf.

[00:14:59] But there again, you have the basic conflict between the Sindar and the Noldor.

[00:15:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:05] The Sindar having been there and never left Middle-earth, and quite happily on their own, even after, you know, Melkor comes along and starts causing serious problems.

[00:15:17] When the Noldor first come back, the Sindar think, oh good, you arrived just in time to help us.

[00:15:22] And it wasn't until long after that they learned that actually, no, they came in chase of Melkor.

[00:15:29] Right.

[00:15:29] And oh, by the way, they're going to start taking over all these lands.

[00:15:33] And Thingol says, well, you can settle here, here, and here, but this is my territory and I am high king over.

[00:15:40] And they just kind of laughed and said, yeah, well, you know, you can only be king of what you can defend and keep by yourself.

[00:15:46] Right.

[00:15:47] So, there's this tension throughout.

[00:15:49] I mean, Thingol is the first person to do this forbidding of language, which reminds me of indigenous children who were taken to boarding schools and were punished if they spoke their own language.

[00:16:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:16:05] So, this is what Thingol does and says, you know, nobody will speak Quendar in my presence.

[00:16:13] Mm-hmm.

[00:16:14] And so…

[00:16:14] The language of the Kinslayers.

[00:16:15] Right.

[00:16:16] And so, this whole language is relegated to the status of lore and to some degree nobility, but mostly it was just something that people learned because it was something that you did.

[00:16:28] But Sindar became the basic elvish language throughout Middle-earth.

[00:16:32] There's exceptions, obviously.

[00:16:33] I mean, I'm not a linguist, so Tolkien made it a lot more complicated than I can keep in my head sometimes.

[00:16:37] Right, right.

[00:16:39] So, you see this conflict embodied almost in Eol.

[00:16:43] And it says, you know, everybody thought he was a dwarf, but that's just because he stooped over so much.

[00:16:47] He was actually a very tall elf.

[00:16:51] But he also had far more liking for the dwarves than any other elf ever did.

[00:16:58] And so, there again, he's setting himself apart.

[00:17:01] He sets himself apart in the forest.

[00:17:03] He likes the dark.

[00:17:05] He doesn't go out in daylight.

[00:17:06] He wanders in the trees.

[00:17:10] And he sees this gleam of light one day in his land.

[00:17:15] And it's Ariel of Feniel.

[00:17:18] And very fair, she seemed to him and he desired her.

[00:17:22] And he set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out, but drew ever nearer to his dwelling in the depths of the woods.

[00:17:30] Hmm.

[00:17:30] So, before we follow on with that, maybe we should talk a little bit about Arithel.

[00:17:37] I think so.

[00:17:38] Because I want to come back to that, but not in this section yet.

[00:17:41] Yeah.

[00:17:42] Yeah.

[00:17:45] Arithel, of course, wanting to be free and being passed from cage to cage constantly.

[00:17:51] Yes, although I will also recognize her agency and say that it was she who chose to leave.

[00:17:58] That's true.

[00:17:59] The cages.

[00:18:01] That's true.

[00:18:02] Well, I think what's most interesting to me about what Tolkien taps into here, because I think it's a true thing, is a woman who appears to be, and I know, not a woman, a lady elf, let's say.

[00:18:14] A lady elf who appears to be in some type of abusive relationship.

[00:18:24] And yet, it is her son saying, I want to leave, her son pointing it out to her, that makes her choose to leave the second time.

[00:18:34] Yes, and she's proud of him, the text says, for making this decision.

[00:18:40] Right.

[00:18:40] It's the child that makes her finally say, I'm out of here.

[00:18:46] Mm-hmm.

[00:18:46] Mm-hmm.

[00:18:49] Yes.

[00:18:49] That struck me as true.

[00:18:51] Yeah, that is interesting.

[00:18:53] That is an interesting point.

[00:18:55] And so it's very difficult to not just write her off as the headstrong sister, and if only she'd listened to her brother, everything would have been fine.

[00:19:07] No, yeah.

[00:19:08] But I think that's an unfair reading of her.

[00:19:09] I don't think that's right.

[00:19:09] I think that's an unfair reading of her.

[00:19:11] I think so too.

[00:19:12] I was more saying, you know, poor Arithel, that she constantly is trying to regain agency in her life and it's constantly being taken away from her.

[00:19:21] Yes.

[00:19:21] Yes.

[00:19:22] I would agree with that.

[00:19:23] That's my read of her.

[00:19:24] Yeah, mine too.

[00:19:26] But it's, you have to read below the surface of texts like, you know, she was, you know, wayward.

[00:19:35] Mm-hmm.

[00:19:35] And she said, all right, brother, I'll go and visit this elf that you trust.

[00:19:40] But then as soon as she's out of the realm of Gondolin, she says to her servants, nope, we're going to see the sons of Phanar.

[00:19:46] Right.

[00:19:47] And oh, by the way, that means, you know, traveling through the probably the most dangerous parts of the middle of Beleriand right now.

[00:19:54] Right, right.

[00:19:55] And fascinating that Thingol won't even let her through, right?

[00:19:59] Yes.

[00:20:00] Well, that, again, we come back to this conflict between the Sindar and the Noldor.

[00:20:05] And the impact.

[00:20:06] Right.

[00:20:07] These hard lines are really starting to impact where you can travel even.

[00:20:11] And what really strikes me this whole chapter is how much people's pride and sort of racism towards the other types of elves gets in the way of their own interests and really, really create situations that could have been fruitful.

[00:20:31] Like, Aeol could have gone to Gondolin and taught them how to smith and they could have had a great time.

[00:20:35] Yeah.

[00:20:36] And, of course, it's not entirely his fault in that situation either, because Torgon could have said, you can come and go freely, you are kinsmen, right?

[00:20:46] Except that even the kinsmen weren't allowed to go and come freely.

[00:20:49] I mean, that's the whole point with Aarazhan.

[00:20:50] Sure.

[00:20:51] You know, his own sister was supposed to stay there forever.

[00:20:54] Right.

[00:20:54] I think…

[00:20:54] And in fairness, Gondolin doesn't do very well when somebody finally does figure out where it is.

[00:21:00] No, I mean, in two ways.

[00:21:03] We'll read subsequently about two more people that find out about the location of Gondolin.

[00:21:07] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:09] But, with Aerithel, when she got lost in, or they got separated in this veil, which is the one that a certain human will be wandering through and be driven mad by before he gets healing.

[00:21:30] And, her servants sought long for her in vain, fearing that she had been ensnared or had drunk from the poisoned streams of that land.

[00:21:37] But the fell creatures of Ungoliant that dwelt in the ravines were aroused and pursued them, and they hardly escaped with their lives.

[00:21:43] But, Aarazhan, having sought in vain for her companions, wrote on, for she was fearless and hardy of heart, as were all the children of Finwë.

[00:21:53] And she held on her way and crossed as Galdolin and Aros came to the land of Himlid between Aros and Caelan, where Celegorm and Kuruthen dwelt in those days before the breaking of the siege of Angbon.

[00:22:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:22:35] Hmm.

[00:22:36] I don't know.

[00:22:37] I mean, I don't mean to equate the two things, because there was definite love between Melian and Fingal, or they wouldn't have stood there for however many hundreds of years it was, gazing into each other's eyes.

[00:22:49] Well, there's that, and also, we are explicitly told that Eol basically tricked her into being trapped in here, right?

[00:22:55] Absolutely.

[00:22:56] There is some, I think I could see parallels to gaslighting here, right?

[00:23:00] Definitely.

[00:23:01] Trying to make her doubt her sense of direction, doubt herself.

[00:23:04] Definitely.

[00:23:05] Making sure she's off her rhythm, making sure she's a little bit vulnerable feeling.

[00:23:09] And getting back to your earlier point about, you know, Eol could have come and done this, I see all of this ultimately as the fruits of the kinslaying.

[00:23:18] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:19] And even prior to that of, well, no, after that, the doom of Mandos.

[00:23:25] Yeah, this is the curse of the oath working itself out.

[00:23:29] Yeah.

[00:23:30] And the fact that it's not just working itself out in terms of the course of the battle against Melkor, but within all of these different peoples, you know, tears shall ye shed unnumbered.

[00:23:42] Right.

[00:23:42] So, this is just one more example of what that is and how that comes about.

[00:23:48] Right.

[00:23:50] So, we've talked about Arithel a bit, talked about Eol a bit.

[00:23:54] I do want to mention his smithing.

[00:23:56] Sounds awesome, and I don't think we see something like this.

[00:24:01] He is supposed to have his own metal?

[00:24:04] Yes.

[00:24:04] Can we talk about that a little bit?

[00:24:05] Yes.

[00:24:06] Because friendship grew with the dwarves, he would at times go and dwell as the guest in deep mansions of Nogrod or Belagost.

[00:24:14] There he learned much of metalwork and came to great skill therein, and he devised a metal as hard as the steel of the dwarves, but so malleable that he could make it thin and supple, and yet it remained resistant to all blades and darts.

[00:24:30] He named it Galvon, for it was black and shining like jet, and he was clad in it whenever he went abroad.

[00:24:38] Hmm.

[00:24:39] Yeah.

[00:24:41] And as you say, what a lost opportunity.

[00:24:44] Right.

[00:24:45] Joining together the skills of the dwarves and the elves, you come up with these amazing creations.

[00:24:50] Right.

[00:24:50] And he is the one who is most attuned to the elves, right?

[00:24:54] Yes.

[00:24:55] Yes, for sure.

[00:24:56] They say that.

[00:24:57] And it does seem like by the second age, by the time Elrond is getting buddy-buddy with the elves of Khazad-dum.

[00:25:08] The dwarves of Khazad-dum.

[00:25:09] Sorry, yeah, the dwarves of Khazad-dum.

[00:25:11] Yeah.

[00:25:12] It does seem like they are not doing this kind of thing anymore.

[00:25:16] Well, we don't hear about it, so.

[00:25:18] Yeah.

[00:25:19] It does seem that way.

[00:25:20] And we don't see it anywhere.

[00:25:22] You would think Gimli would be using that in the third age if it were still around, right?

[00:25:26] Like...

[00:25:27] Possibly.

[00:25:27] Although I have to say, I wonder how they felt about the fact that it was black and shining like jet.

[00:25:33] Hmm.

[00:25:34] You know, there is a coding in this particular heroic legend form that says, you know, black is at best questionable.

[00:25:45] Hmm.

[00:25:46] And it's...

[00:25:47] That's true.

[00:25:47] ...it's hard to imagine, you know, a cavalry of elves charging orcs wearing black armor.

[00:25:53] Because that's what the orcs are supposed to be wearing, right?

[00:25:57] Fair enough.

[00:25:58] Fair enough.

[00:25:58] I see what you're saying there.

[00:26:00] Yeah.

[00:26:00] Well, I don't know if that was what Tolkien intended or if it...

[00:26:03] That's just kind of how it came out for him.

[00:26:05] And was it a conscious or unconscious...

[00:26:08] Yeah.

[00:26:09] ...association?

[00:26:09] I mean, he also names Eo a dark elf, which is something that we don't see applied to anybody else.

[00:26:14] Yes.

[00:26:15] Although sometimes the elves that refused the call and ran away in the very early are called...

[00:26:22] The avari sometimes are called dark elves as well.

[00:26:26] So...

[00:26:27] Yeah.

[00:26:27] I think he realized afterward, after naming Eo the dark elf, that, oh dear, this is going to be confusing.

[00:26:32] And so he did kind of try to clean it up a little.

[00:26:35] Okay.

[00:26:35] So he ended up going with the unwilling, the avari in the end.

[00:26:39] Right.

[00:26:40] To...

[00:26:40] Right.

[00:26:40] Yeah.

[00:26:41] I think that makes sense too, because the avari aren't necessarily dark, right?

[00:26:45] They're not...

[00:26:45] They're not evil.

[00:26:48] They're not filled with darkness.

[00:26:50] They are...

[00:26:50] They are just...

[00:26:52] Wait, we didn't see this light.

[00:26:54] This particular light.

[00:26:55] Exactly.

[00:26:56] Dark in this case is in contrast to the specific light.

[00:27:02] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:02] Not just a light shade or light color tone or whatever.

[00:27:05] It is the light, the sacred light of the two trees.

[00:27:08] Whereas Eo, arguably in contrast to light itself.

[00:27:12] Well, yeah.

[00:27:14] Yeah.

[00:27:14] Yeah.

[00:27:15] Yeah.

[00:27:15] Clearly he is not fond of it because he lives in the deepest, darkest forest and never goes

[00:27:20] out in sun or moonlight as far as if he can avoid it.

[00:27:24] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:25] Do you want to talk about fate before we go into the other theme we have planned?

[00:27:28] Sure.

[00:27:30] I mean, I started on it already a little bit with the whole business about the curse coming

[00:27:36] home and, you know, the fruits of the kinsling and so on.

[00:27:39] Right.

[00:27:41] It...

[00:27:42] When, um, after Arithal and Maeglin escaped together, they have something of a head start, but Aeol

[00:27:51] did come home early and followed very closely after them.

[00:27:55] And even though he was waylaid by a couple of those sons of Feanor, he still manages to

[00:28:01] get close enough to them so that then by ill fate they were betrayed.

[00:28:07] For the horses neighed loudly, and Aeol's steed heard them and sped towards them.

[00:28:12] And Aeol saw from afar the white raiment of Arithal, and marked which way she went, seeking

[00:28:18] the secret path into the mouth."

[00:28:21] So here it's called ill fate.

[00:28:24] Mm-hmm.

[00:28:25] Is that an extension of the curse?

[00:28:29] Could be.

[00:28:30] Was it just random ill fate?

[00:28:32] Oh.

[00:28:33] Luck of the draw, you know?

[00:28:35] I don't think anything's random in Tolkien's universe, right?

[00:28:37] Well, that's the sense that one gets, yeah.

[00:28:41] Yeah.

[00:28:41] Yeah.

[00:28:42] I think we've talked about this before, that fate, doom, and Tolkien's universe seems to

[00:28:47] be that the big steps, that's all up to the god, that's all up to Eru Oluvitar, right?

[00:28:52] Right.

[00:28:52] And then the little steps, you can save your mortal soul.

[00:28:56] You can sort of redeem yourself personally by being a part of the plan.

[00:29:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:29:02] But this, all of these characters are enmeshed in the fate of Gondolin itself.

[00:29:07] Mm-hmm.

[00:29:08] And we've already been told that Gondolin's gonna fall.

[00:29:11] Right.

[00:29:11] It's gonna be the last one to fall.

[00:29:12] I mean, Oluvitar himself, it's gonna be the last one to fall, but it's gonna fall.

[00:29:15] Right.

[00:29:16] Right.

[00:29:16] And so, however it happens, you know, it is written, quote unquote, if you like.

[00:29:23] Right.

[00:29:23] You can't spoil Tolkien because he'll do it for you.

[00:29:29] Yeah.

[00:29:31] Yeah.

[00:29:32] Yeah, and all the subsequent things that happen.

[00:29:35] And the fact that Erythril wound up dying from this wound that was, as you said, not necessarily

[00:29:44] mortal, but it was a poisoned javelin.

[00:29:46] Right.

[00:29:47] It was deceptively not mortal.

[00:29:48] Yes.

[00:29:50] Yes.

[00:29:50] Yeah.

[00:29:50] And so, both Erythril and Idril were begging Turgon to show mercy and not execute Eol.

[00:29:59] Right.

[00:30:00] But, Erythril's death kind of put paid to that.

[00:30:03] Well, that's the whole thing, right?

[00:30:05] Is Eol probably would have lived had he not killed Erythril.

[00:30:11] Poisoned his javelin.

[00:30:11] Right.

[00:30:11] And the whole thing about poisoning your weapons, I mean, that's something that orcs do.

[00:30:16] Right.

[00:30:17] So, there again, you're getting this very, very shaded coding for Eol.

[00:30:25] You know, he sneaks around in the dark and he uses poison javelin and so on and so on.

[00:30:30] And Maeglin stood by and said nothing.

[00:30:33] But at the last Eol cried out, so you forsake your father and his kin, ill-gotten son.

[00:30:38] Here shall you fail all your hopes.

[00:30:40] And here may you yet die the same death as I."

[00:30:45] We'll put a pin in that, folks, okay?

[00:30:49] Yeah.

[00:30:50] We'll get back to that in a later chapter.

[00:30:52] Yes.

[00:30:53] Yes.

[00:30:54] You know, can I just say, I was actually hoping in Rings of Power Season 1

[00:30:59] because we're recording this before Rings of Power Season 2.

[00:31:01] Yes.

[00:31:02] I was hoping when Adar was first introduced in Rings of Power Season 1 that that was going

[00:31:07] to be Maeglin in the end.

[00:31:08] Huh.

[00:31:09] Because we do end up with an uncertain fate of Maeglin in the end of the Silmarillion.

[00:31:14] Really?

[00:31:15] I believe he is not confirmed.

[00:31:17] In Game of Thrones language, we didn't see the body, right?

[00:31:23] I thought, I'd have to go back to read the language, but I thought they said his body

[00:31:29] was broken.

[00:31:30] Okay.

[00:31:31] Which sounds like a fairly clear statement.

[00:31:32] But is it broken?

[00:31:33] Or is it dead?

[00:31:34] I don't know.

[00:31:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:31:37] I'm just saying if I'm someone trying, if I can put Tom Bombadil in Rune, then I can get

[00:31:43] Maeglin into the story.

[00:31:45] Why do you want him in the story, John?

[00:31:47] I think he's a really interesting character.

[00:31:50] He's awful, but he's interesting.

[00:31:52] Okay.

[00:31:53] Interesting how?

[00:31:55] He is the son of the Twilight, right?

[00:31:58] He is somebody with this crazy expertise of both Dwarven and Elvish smithing.

[00:32:05] He is someone who has the potential to do great, but did awful things.

[00:32:11] And I think could still do great things if he were brought back to the light a bit.

[00:32:16] Hmm.

[00:32:16] Well, he also falls in love with his first cousin.

[00:32:20] Well, you know what?

[00:32:21] I just got out of House of the Dragon.

[00:32:23] That's child's point.

[00:32:24] We're not talking Targaryens here.

[00:32:26] I knew this was going to come up, but I had my response set here.

[00:32:30] Yeah.

[00:32:32] As soon as I saw him falling in love with his cousin, I was like, pfft.

[00:32:38] That's nothing.

[00:32:39] That's nothing.

[00:32:40] For it seemed to her a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since have

[00:32:47] deemed it an evil fruit of the kinslaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of Mandos fell

[00:32:52] upon the last hope of the Noldor.

[00:32:56] I think that's pretty definitive coding for this is not good.

[00:33:00] Oh, for sure.

[00:33:01] I'm not.

[00:33:02] I'm not defending it.

[00:33:03] Okay.

[00:33:03] I think it's, and then Eldar are clearly not for it and she's not for it.

[00:33:10] It's, it's not great.

[00:33:11] It's not great.

[00:33:12] And I mean, you could say this is something of indication of, of how his, he was begotten

[00:33:22] himself, you know, that although that gets kind of squishy when you're talking about,

[00:33:30] you know, do you blame parents for the deeds of their children and so on and so on.

[00:33:34] But in this kind of context, which is, you know, context of, of epic hero stories or whatever,

[00:33:42] these things are pretty clear in, at least in our Western tradition that, you know, first cousin

[00:33:50] marriage is, I don't, I can't think of anywhere other than Valeria where these things are acceptable.

[00:33:59] Um, and I, I think.

[00:34:00] I don't know.

[00:34:00] First cousin marriage.

[00:34:01] That's been, that was legal in the United States for a long time.

[00:34:04] No, it's true.

[00:34:05] In some states.

[00:34:06] No, it's true.

[00:34:06] First cousin marriages.

[00:34:07] And I think genetics now is saying that it really isn't quite as bad as it had been

[00:34:12] believed to be, unless there is some kind of, um, serious genetic.

[00:34:16] Don't marry your cousin.

[00:34:18] Can we just, uh, we're not encouraging you to marry.

[00:34:20] No, no, no, not doing it.

[00:34:22] Not doing it.

[00:34:22] I'm just saying, I think in Tolkien's time.

[00:34:25] Right.

[00:34:26] It was even less recognized as some kind of taboo.

[00:34:30] That's certainly possible.

[00:34:32] That's certainly possible.

[00:34:33] However, thus it was in Gondolin.

[00:34:36] And amid all the bliss of that realm while its glory lasted, a dark seed of evil was sown.

[00:34:44] So there you are.

[00:34:45] Mm.

[00:34:46] And that dark seed's name is Meglin.

[00:34:50] Yeah.

[00:34:51] Can I talk about the OJ trial now?

[00:34:54] Please.

[00:34:55] Go right ahead.

[00:34:56] So I've been listening to a podcast on the OJ trial.

[00:35:00] Uh huh.

[00:35:00] It's called You're Wrong About.

[00:35:02] They talk about a lot of things, but they talk about the OJ trial sometimes.

[00:35:05] We're going through their back catalog.

[00:35:06] And I've, I've thought a lot about how when OJ killed his ex-wife, Nicole Brown, this was not an, and, and by the way, allegedly, I know he wasn't convicted, but this was at the end of a long pattern of abuse.

[00:35:28] And I can't help but read a chapter like this and say, we can see abuse from Aeol to Arithel more subtly, of course.

[00:35:42] But I think pretty clear throughout this entire chapter, right?

[00:35:47] Right.

[00:35:47] He tricks her and basically traps her in here.

[00:35:52] There is an implied assault, which I think we'll talk about after a little content warning here.

[00:35:57] Mm-hmm.

[00:35:57] Um, possible implied assault.

[00:36:01] I think it's debatable.

[00:36:03] Yeah.

[00:36:04] But, and then, and then he restricts her from seeing the sunlight even.

[00:36:09] Right.

[00:36:09] Then he won't let her see her family.

[00:36:12] He isolates her.

[00:36:14] And then he follows her and eventually kills her.

[00:36:16] And I think, I think what you have to take from that is, and I think what Tolkien really is putting his finger on without perhaps even realizing, realizing he's doing it is that abusers don't come out of nowhere.

[00:36:27] They usually have these patterns of abuse that really escalate like that.

[00:36:32] Yeah, yeah.

[00:36:32] It's, it's a classic.

[00:36:35] Mm-hmm.

[00:36:35] Stalker, controller, um, isolator and eventually killer.

[00:36:42] Right.

[00:36:44] So I just think it's really interesting that he seems to really get that in a, in a very patriarchal society that he's very much a part of.

[00:36:52] Mm-hmm.

[00:36:53] Mm-hmm.

[00:36:53] Well, as Aeol says when he, um, when he's in front of Turgon and Turgon has said, okay, I accept you as my kinsman because you married my sister and you're welcome here and we'll treat you with honor, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:37:06] But you can't ever leave here now.

[00:37:08] Right.

[00:37:09] And his response is, I care nothing for your secrets and I came not to spy upon you, but to claim my own.

[00:37:17] Right, possession.

[00:37:18] My wife and my son, very definitely possessions.

[00:37:21] Yet, if in Erevel, your sister, you have some claim, then let her remain.

[00:37:25] Let the bird go back to the cage where soon she will sicken again as she sickened before.

[00:37:30] Well, as you said in the beginning, from one cage to another.

[00:37:33] Mm-hmm.

[00:37:34] But not so, Meglin.

[00:37:35] My son, you shall not withhold from me.

[00:37:37] Come, Meglin, son of Aeol, your father commands you.

[00:37:41] Leave the house of his enemies and the slayer of his kin or be accursed.

[00:37:48] But Meglin answered nothing.

[00:37:50] Yeah.

[00:37:52] Yeah.

[00:37:53] Be accursed.

[00:37:54] Yeah, there it is again.

[00:37:56] This is, to me, this is an abuser who's lost control of the situation and is now lashing out.

[00:38:02] Yes, definitely.

[00:38:03] That's what it reads to me.

[00:38:05] Definitely.

[00:38:06] Which then, of course, leads to the question, was Turgon being an abuser when he told his sister she could never leave Gondolin?

[00:38:15] I think it's a societal, it's kind of a society-wide abuse, right?

[00:38:21] Because nobody's allowed to leave Gondolin.

[00:38:23] Well, that's right.

[00:38:23] That's right.

[00:38:24] And one wonders if, when this whole plan was happening, when he announced it to his people, did he give people a chance to say, you know, I kind of like wandering free, so it's great to know you.

[00:38:37] I hope you have a good life.

[00:38:38] Right.

[00:38:39] I'm staying by the ocean here.

[00:38:41] Right, because you can't imagine that every single person is going to be okay with that, right?

[00:38:46] I don't know.

[00:38:46] And I know that we have this being, I know we have this being portrayed as this like paradise that's really close to essentially elvish heaven.

[00:38:54] Mm-hmm.

[00:38:55] But still, I think any heaven that restricts your movement is not going to feel like that forever.

[00:39:03] No.

[00:39:03] Especially for literally an immortal or serial longevity race, right?

[00:39:09] Yes, that's a big important piece that people tend to overlook.

[00:39:12] I also want to say, you know, we talk about, oh, she couldn't see the light of day and so on and so on. Let's remember that for these elves, the sun was a new thing.

[00:39:23] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:23] And they wouldn't necessarily be enamored of it and feel like they were going to die without it.

[00:39:31] Right.

[00:39:32] Sunlight, for sure.

[00:39:33] She liked to wander freely in the forest, but most elves love to wander freely in the forest at night.

[00:39:40] So that sense of, oh, she was of the light and the dark encroised her and so forth.

[00:39:46] She always wears white too, which implies, you know, some kind of light.

[00:39:51] Right.

[00:39:51] As contrast with dark and so forth.

[00:39:53] And it's even said that Aeol lets her, you know, they go on walks together in the light of the moon and the stars.

[00:40:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:40:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:40:05] So he, but to me that reads like, I will, I'm still going to hold the leash, but I'm going to let it a little looser.

[00:40:12] Yeah.

[00:40:13] And so again, he can character as Gondolin as the cage that she fled from and absolutely not see his own situation and set up as being a cage.

[00:40:24] Right.

[00:40:25] Which of course is false, but you know, the controller doesn't always see that their actions as being controlling.

[00:40:34] Right.

[00:40:35] Yeah, it's really interesting.

[00:40:37] I mean, you have Turgon trying to decide he knows what's best for Arithel and then you have Arithel defying that.

[00:40:45] Mm-hmm.

[00:40:46] Rightfully so, I think.

[00:40:47] Mm-hmm.

[00:40:48] And then you have Aeol deciding what's best for Arithel.

[00:40:52] And it's really, it's really tragic that just when she starts to get what she wants back.

[00:40:57] Yeah.

[00:40:57] Just when she starts to live the life that she wants again, she's killed.

[00:41:01] Yeah.

[00:41:02] And I'm not sure I can even give Aeol credit for wanting to give Arithel any kind of life.

[00:41:10] I think he sees her, he wants to possess her, he entraps her, and then he establishes the rules for her life.

[00:41:16] Right.

[00:41:17] Because he wants her as a possession and not as, you know, a cared for wife.

[00:41:26] I definitely agree with that.

[00:41:27] Um, barely even the mother of his child.

[00:41:29] I mean, you know, obviously, literally, biologically, that has to be the case.

[00:41:32] But it's my wife and my child.

[00:41:35] Mm-hmm.

[00:41:36] And nothing whatsoever.

[00:41:37] And he would like Meglin to completely forget he has any Noldor blood at all.

[00:41:41] Of course.

[00:41:42] Of course.

[00:41:43] And for Arithel to forget that she was ever part of the Noldor.

[00:41:48] Which, obviously, isn't going to happen.

[00:41:50] And didn't happen.

[00:41:52] Right.

[00:41:52] Right.

[00:41:53] You could also, you could see an alternate history where Meglin is like, no, I'm having a good time with dad.

[00:41:59] And Arithel just never leaves because she doesn't want to leave Meglin alone.

[00:42:03] Hmm.

[00:42:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:42:06] Or at some point, her love might turn to bitterness and she might decide she hates her son as much as his father.

[00:42:12] And, um, when opportunity arrives, she would seize it.

[00:42:16] She sounds like that kind of a person.

[00:42:19] You know, perhaps, yeah.

[00:42:20] But taking what opportunities she can when they come her way.

[00:42:23] Right.

[00:42:24] All right.

[00:42:25] So let's talk about Idril before we move into our last section.

[00:42:28] I consider Idril to be the mother of the savior of Middle-earth.

[00:42:32] I think she's one of the most underrated elves in the whole of the Silmarillion.

[00:42:37] Mm-hmm.

[00:42:37] She seems to stand in basically as, you know, the elf half of, uh, Errendil's inheritance.

[00:42:46] But think about it.

[00:42:48] She presumably saw her mother die in the Helkarakse.

[00:42:53] She carried on with her father.

[00:42:54] She came to Gondolin.

[00:42:56] Mm-hmm.

[00:42:56] She becomes one of his advisors.

[00:43:00] Then in the extended version of the whole story of the fall of Gondolin, she takes on major roles and comes up with basically the plan that helps something very important happen in a future, which I won't spoil.

[00:43:14] Well, I almost did, but I'll remember.

[00:43:16] I remembered in time.

[00:43:17] So remember Idril here.

[00:43:19] Um, and so this section here, um, it's talking about Meglin and it says, he did not reveal his heart.

[00:43:32] And though not all things went as he would, he endured it in silence, hiding his mind so that few could read it unless it were Idril Celebrindal.

[00:43:42] For from his first days in Gondolin, he had borne a grief ever worsening that robbed him of all joy.

[00:43:47] He loved the beauty of Idril and desired her without hope.

[00:43:52] The Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to do so.

[00:43:59] And however that might be, Idril loved Meglin, not at all.

[00:44:02] And knowing his thought of her, she loved him the less.

[00:44:06] For it seemed to her a thing strange and crooked in him.

[00:44:10] And then later on, but as the years passed, still Meglin watched Idril and waited and his love turned to darkness in his heart.

[00:44:17] Hmm.

[00:44:18] And he sought the more to have his will in other matters, shirking no toil or burden if he might thereby have power.

[00:44:25] So yeah, he really is his father's son.

[00:44:29] Sorry to say it.

[00:44:30] He sure is.

[00:44:31] But there it is.

[00:44:32] You know, it isn't that he loves her.

[00:44:34] He loves her beauty and desires her.

[00:44:37] Mm-hmm.

[00:44:37] And oh, by the way, the very first thing we knew about Meglin's ideas about Gondolin was that Turgon had no male heir.

[00:44:45] Hmm.

[00:44:46] And that's what he really liked about Gondolin.

[00:44:48] He really liked the power about it.

[00:44:50] Right.

[00:44:50] He wanted to marry the daughter and become the ruler of this amazing place.

[00:44:56] Right.

[00:44:56] So again, transactional.

[00:44:58] Nothing about love or any of that sort of thing.

[00:45:02] But the fact that Idril could read his mind and heart, you know, this elf who stands by silently for so much of the time, unless he cares really passionately about something, and then he will argue his case.

[00:45:17] But I kind of doubt he was arguing his case with her specifically, but she knew.

[00:45:23] She could read him and it really, she found it really kind of vile.

[00:45:32] Is this where we talk about our episode by episode, Osanwe Kenta?

[00:45:37] Yeah.

[00:45:39] Interesting idea, actually.

[00:45:40] I hadn't thought about that.

[00:45:42] But yeah, it could be.

[00:45:43] She was very skilled on Osanwe.

[00:45:45] Yeah.

[00:45:46] To me, this is saying, I mean, I thought of you right when I read this, this most recent time was not just because we're going to cover this together, but because I thought of Osanwe Kenta, which was something that you taught to me.

[00:45:58] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:59] Mm-hmm.

[00:46:00] Which if you have not been following along, if somehow this is your first chapter of the Silmarillion with us, welcome.

[00:46:05] And Osanwe Kenta, Marilyn, would you like to describe it?

[00:46:09] Yes.

[00:46:10] Osanwe is the ability to look into other people's minds and actually converse mind to mind without speech.

[00:46:20] For those of you who've read Lord of the Rings, towards the end of the book, there is a place where Gandalf and Galadriel and Elrond will sit together in silence while everybody else was asleep as they were on their way back from Minas Tirith.

[00:46:35] And they would speak from mind to mind.

[00:46:38] So, that's Osanwe.

[00:46:41] And everybody has some capacity for it, whether greater or smaller, even humans.

[00:46:47] But this is, it comes up in a lot of contexts.

[00:46:52] Relative to the Rings of Power coming along, the whole notion of whether or not people could read the mind of Anatar.

[00:47:03] Mm-hmm.

[00:47:03] Yeah.

[00:47:04] In the original texts, some people could, some people couldn't.

[00:47:07] And that was what led to some people shutting the door in Anatar's face.

[00:47:12] And an interesting exception to that, which eventually proves ruinous sort of exception.

[00:47:22] So, you could call it that sense of intuition, I suppose.

[00:47:28] But in this particular case, usually people have the freedom of choosing whether their minds are open or not.

[00:47:37] And so, what made people suspicious of Anatar was that his mind was closed.

[00:47:42] Right.

[00:47:43] And that was unusual.

[00:47:45] Now, I can't imagine that Maeglin's mind was not closed.

[00:47:49] But if he didn't know about this, and nobody had told him how to close his mind or whatever, then, presumably, yes, Idril could have read it.

[00:47:57] But then that begs the question, well, why didn't everybody else read it too?

[00:48:01] So, you know, maybe they weren't trying.

[00:48:03] They hadn't been taught Jedi mind tricks yet.

[00:48:07] Something like that.

[00:48:09] Something like that.

[00:48:10] Yeah.

[00:48:11] It's, I think Idril will certainly be someone to keep an eye on going forward.

[00:48:16] Kind of a secondary character here, but definitely illustrative of Maeglin's decline.

[00:48:24] Definitely.

[00:48:25] And for those of you who do want more and would like more detail than what's present in the Silmarillion, then I really encourage you to look for this single volume called The Fall of Gondolin, which was one of the last books that you've read.

[00:48:40] That Christopher edited and published.

[00:48:42] It might have been the last, right?

[00:48:43] Was that one the last one?

[00:48:45] I think it might have been the last.

[00:48:46] It might have been.

[00:48:47] Or was it Beren and Luthien?

[00:48:48] No, I think Beren and Luthien was the first.

[00:48:50] Oh, okay.

[00:48:52] And then...

[00:48:52] I think The Fall of Gondolin might have been the last.

[00:48:54] I think it is.

[00:48:54] You know, if only we had this Google machine.

[00:48:57] Fall of Gondolin.

[00:49:00] Let's see.

[00:49:01] No, you're absolutely right.

[00:49:01] Because Children of Huren was not the last.

[00:49:05] I'm pretty sure it was Beren and Luthien, and then Children of Huren, and then Fall of Gondolin.

[00:49:10] But there's some beautiful, beautiful texts in there, including just jaw-dropping description of this gates leading from the hidden entrance to the hidden city.

[00:49:26] Mm-hmm.

[00:49:27] And lots of famous names, like Ecthelion of the Fountain and...

[00:49:33] Yeah.

[00:49:34] By the way, yeah, so Fall of Gondolin came out in 2018.

[00:49:37] That was the last one from Christopher, it looks like.

[00:49:39] Which is really fascinating because this was the very first story that Tolkien ever worked on, starting in, like, 1917.

[00:49:47] So, it was kind of the beginning and the end, as you will, the Alpha and Omega of his legendarium.

[00:49:54] Yeah.

[00:49:54] Go ahead.

[00:49:55] Were you going to say something other than...

[00:49:57] Yeah, just that the idea of hidden elven kingdoms has very lengthy history in folklore.

[00:50:06] And people think particularly of Celtic peoples and the Irish in particular.

[00:50:10] You know, you have the Therath, the R-A-T-H, which is the Goydella Celtic name for the fairy mound and stories about people who go and dance with the fairies for one night and come back and it's 100 years later.

[00:50:24] Or maybe it's 400 years later and their body dissolves into dust when they exit the fairy realm and so forth.

[00:50:30] Mm-hmm.

[00:50:30] So, I really think that that was one of the major inspirations for this idea of a hidden city of the elves.

[00:50:38] Obviously, Tolkien's elves intentionally quite different from the two other didanon and the stories that come from the Irish legends, the Tangbo and so forth.

[00:50:51] But, yeah.

[00:50:54] Cool.

[00:50:55] Mm-hmm.

[00:50:56] The hidden cities of the elves are numerous in this realm.

[00:50:59] Yes, they are.

[00:51:02] All right.

[00:51:03] So, the next section we're going to get to is going to be our last one.

[00:51:06] So, if you choose to tune out here, know that you will not miss anything except this next topic.

[00:51:12] And that is one that we're going to give a content warning for.

[00:51:15] It is going to focus on sexual assault, particularly rape.

[00:51:20] And we are going to talk about it as sensitively as we can.

[00:51:25] But a lot of people don't like to hear about it due to personal circumstances or sensitivities.

[00:51:31] That is totally fine.

[00:51:32] You are welcome to tune out if you'd like and you won't miss any other topics.

[00:51:37] You will be welcomed back next month for the next chapter.

[00:51:41] If that is you, we'll see you then.

[00:51:44] Yes.

[00:51:45] And thanks for tuning in for the first part.

[00:51:47] Yes.

[00:51:47] Thank you.

[00:52:20] Thank you.

[00:52:27] See vous in the next section.

[00:52:29] We work for a contact.

[00:52:34] We will see you on social media.

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[00:52:54] Your guests arearn in on Spotify.

[00:52:54] be fine. And of course, now that, now that, that, uh, warning has been given, uh, this is a sensitive

[00:53:11] subject. We're going to do our best to navigate it as carefully and tactfully as we can, but we

[00:53:17] always welcome feedback. And the knowledge that everybody has different experiences and will

[00:53:22] respond to similar experiences different. So absolutely. We can only come from our own,

[00:53:29] um, experience, knowledge, understanding, and so forth. And please don't ever hear anything

[00:53:35] that we say as being prescriptive. For sure. We'll do our best to be thoughtful about our language,

[00:53:41] but, um, you know, with strong topics come strong feelings and can sometimes sound as though one

[00:53:49] might be saying this is, this is the right way. This is the wrong way, whatever, but it it's,

[00:53:53] it's a very, very gnarly issue. And, um, everybody has the right to their own feelings on the subject.

[00:54:02] So absolutely. So this actually came to us via feedback. I think, uh, the Tina on the discord

[00:54:10] wanted to talk about this issue because it is both present and absent in Tolkien's writings.

[00:54:18] So here's what Tina said that, that triggered this discussion. The absence or presence of the

[00:54:24] concept of rape in Tolkien's writings has concerned me on many rereadings of his works. The word is

[00:54:30] never used, but it is strongly implied on different occasions. Every time I read Arathel's story,

[00:54:37] the description of how she and Aeol got together makes me very uncomfortable. The published text

[00:54:42] says she wasn't wholly, she wasn't wholly unwilling, but to me, the way it is described clearly indicates

[00:54:49] rape. The consequences this would have on Arathel's character are never really explored. She stays

[00:54:55] with Aeol and they have a son together, but she is clearly unhappy. She still doesn't seem changed at

[00:55:00] all from how she was described before her first encounter with Aeol, despite being held against

[00:55:05] her will for many years. And I'm wondering if by not calling it rape, Arathel as a character is robbed

[00:55:12] of the possibility of exploring and communicating her own feelings and trauma. The way her story ends,

[00:55:19] she dies tragically killed by her husband while saving her son from him. Makes me question if,

[00:55:25] although she is one of the more developed female characters in the legendarium, her only narrative

[00:55:31] purpose is to tell the story of the men around her. I would also add that it is implied through her

[00:55:36] actions, Arathel has a questionable part in the fall of Gondolin, which I find outright insulting and

[00:55:42] very close to victim blaming. Gondolin falls because Morgoth attacks and destroys it. On my research on this

[00:55:49] topic, I came across the following essay, which has some really good thoughts in it and also lists and

[00:55:54] explores many more occasions of possible rape. I'd be very curious to hear more thoughts on this.

[00:55:59] And then, yeah, she links that essay in the Discord. So, Marilyn, you brought some quotes in to talk

[00:56:09] about rape and Tolkien.

[00:56:11] Yes, I wanted first to quote directly from the text.

[00:56:17] And there she remained, for Ael took her to wife, and it was long ere any of her kin heard of her again.

[00:56:24] It is not said that Arathel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life in Nan Elmoth was hateful to her for

[00:56:31] many years. For though at Ael's command she must shun the sunlight, they wandered far together under the

[00:56:38] stars, or by the light of the sickle moon. Or she might fare alone as she would, save that Ael forbid her to

[00:56:45] seek the sons of Feanor, or any others of the Noldor. So there you see that controlling behavior that we

[00:56:57] talked about.

[00:56:58] Right. Especially the wholly unwilling really does, the word wholly is really doing a lot of work there,

[00:57:06] right? Is, you know, if it said she wasn't unwilling, well, that's an unequivocal statement,

[00:57:13] right? That's saying she was willing, right? You could read that as she was willing, but wholly

[00:57:18] unwilling means there was resistance there.

[00:57:21] Right, right.

[00:57:23] I think Tina's right. You have to read this as not, at least not fully consensual.

[00:57:29] No, it was not her choice, her full choice.

[00:57:33] And especially because of the circumstances around her getting there, where she's turned

[00:57:39] around, she's gaslit into thinking she didn't know how to get out, she's prevented from leaving.

[00:57:45] I think that there's no way around it this was an assault of a kind.

[00:57:51] Yeah.

[00:57:52] Yeah.

[00:57:53] Unquestionably. And as I was saying earlier about Ael, it was a desire to possess.

[00:57:59] Mm-hmm.

[00:58:00] I don't ever remember hearing anything about Ael's love of Arithel, not that that would necessarily

[00:58:06] excuse it.

[00:58:08] For sure, yeah. But I think the fact that it goes down to power and possession really reinforces

[00:58:17] this idea that this was a rape.

[00:58:19] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:58:21] And it's also interesting to look at how subsequent elves, when Arithel and Ael do come out into

[00:58:33] the wider world and different people run into them.

[00:58:36] Mm-hmm.

[00:58:40] Right.

[00:58:41] And before I talk about that, I wanted to read some excerpts from The Laws and Customs of the Eldar,

[00:58:48] which is an essay which appears in Mordegas Ring, which is one of the volumes of the Histories

[00:58:54] of Middle-Earth. And in many respects, a lot of people like this one volume the best because it's Tolkien's

[00:59:01] own reflections and ponderings.

[00:59:04] Okay.

[00:59:05] After he's published The Hobbit, The Silurian, and Lord of the Rings.

[00:59:10] Okay.

[00:59:11] Looking back on what he's written,

[00:59:13] expanding some of it, questioning other parts of it,

[00:59:16] and you get some really, really interesting descriptions and things, such as,

[00:59:45] And then in note 5, there's an additional,

[00:59:48] But among all these evils there is no record of any among the elves that took another's spouse by

[00:59:53] force. For this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected the bodily

[00:59:58] life and past demandos. Guile or trickery in this matter was scarcely possible, even if it could

[01:00:05] be thought that any elf would propose to use it. For the Eldar can read at once in the eyes and voice

[01:00:11] of another, whether they be wed or unwed.

[01:00:13] So, that note 5 was a paragraph taken from something that he had written,

[01:00:20] I don't remember if it was before or after the material from the paragraph that I read first. So,

[01:00:25] even here you can see Tolkien kind of wrestling in his own mind

[01:00:30] with these ideas. And so, a couple of points, you know, stick out.

[01:00:37] You know, seldom there's any stories of lust.

[01:00:41] Mm-hmm.

[01:00:42] But they do reference the fact that this change became of the corruption that came upon many of the

[01:00:53] Eldar during their time in Middle-earth, and their hearts being darkened by the shadow that lies

[01:00:57] upon Ardus. So, you know, Melkor made me do it.

[01:01:01] Yeah. Yikes.

[01:01:03] He doesn't specifically mention the, you know, the Doom of Mandos or the Ophifin or anything in this

[01:01:11] particular section, but just sort of in a broader context. And the notion that if anyone tried to

[01:01:20] force someone else, they would leave their Roa behind and send their Fea to Mandos.

[01:01:28] Hmm.

[01:01:29] Hmm.

[01:01:30] You know, that to me, I'm reminded of echoes of, you know, Victorian purity of, oh, it's just

[01:01:39] better to take your own life than to submit to, you know, that violation.

[01:01:44] Hmm.

[01:01:45] I'm just not sure how I feel about that.

[01:01:47] Right, yeah.

[01:01:48] To be perfectly honest.

[01:01:49] It's quite dark. Quite dark.

[01:01:51] Really? Really? Because the first thing you ask us, well, why is it so terrible that,

[01:01:57] you know, what is the social implication that is so horrible that you would rather leave your body

[01:02:03] and go to Mandos than, you know, suffer this?

[01:02:07] Right.

[01:02:09] And then in terms of how did they define marriage, there's some lovely writings in there about the

[01:02:16] ceremonies that happen and how the family is drawn in together and gifts exchanged and

[01:02:22] it sort of harkens to what we see in Lord of the Rings when the fellowship is in Lorien and

[01:02:29] Galadriel gives to Aragorn the brooch, which is the eagle with the green stone in it, that eventually gives him his name, Elisar,

[01:02:40] that she had given to her daughter, Calibrian, who had given to her daughter, Arwen.

[01:02:46] So, this is the wedding gift of the bride's mother to the groom.

[01:02:54] If you know these histories, if you don't know this material, then it's just a lovely gesture and it's fine.

[01:03:01] But Tolkien knew about it. It was in his head when he was writing this scene.

[01:03:05] And, you know, you might think, well, so what? He gets a green stone. That's lovely.

[01:03:08] He goes on and eventually it becomes his name.

[01:03:10] What is that? You know, why do we need to read about that?

[01:03:13] Well, it had this deeper significance that Galadriel was accepting that her Elvin granddaughter was going to marry a mortal man.

[01:03:22] Which is pretty huge when you think about it.

[01:03:25] Yeah.

[01:03:26] But then you have this other section in the Laws and Customs that said,

[01:03:31] the ceremonies were not rights necessary to marriage.

[01:03:34] They were only a gracious mode by which the love of the parents was manifested and the union was recognized,

[01:03:40] which would join not only the betrothed but their two houses together.

[01:03:44] It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage.

[01:03:48] And after which the indissoluble bond was complete.

[01:03:53] In happy days and times of peace,

[01:03:55] it was held ungracious and contemptuous of kin to forego the ceremonies.

[01:03:59] But it was at all times lawful for any of the Eldar,

[01:04:02] both being unwed,

[01:04:04] to marry thus of free consent,

[01:04:07] one to another without ceremony or witnesses,

[01:04:10] say blessings exchanged in the naming of the name, capital N name.

[01:04:13] And the union so joined was alike indissoluble.

[01:04:16] In days of old,

[01:04:18] in times of trouble,

[01:04:19] in flight and exile and wandering,

[01:04:21] such marriages were often made.

[01:04:24] Okay, counsel.

[01:04:26] Oh, boy.

[01:04:27] How do you take the evidence and interpret it?

[01:04:31] What would you say about this?

[01:04:32] Does this say that,

[01:04:36] well, yes,

[01:04:36] of course it was actually a marriage and they were married,

[01:04:38] even though there was no recognition?

[01:04:42] Is this good practice?

[01:04:44] Is it harmful practice?

[01:04:45] I mean,

[01:04:45] it is really kind of fascinating.

[01:04:50] It is.

[01:04:51] And I think in the case of Ale and Arithel,

[01:04:55] whether there was a witness or not,

[01:04:57] the way she was brought to the altar

[01:05:02] made it impossible for her to truly enter a marriage.

[01:05:07] Yes,

[01:05:07] to marry thus of free consent.

[01:05:09] If you are not free to say no,

[01:05:12] you are not free to say yes.

[01:05:15] Absolutely.

[01:05:16] And I think that one word free

[01:05:19] demonstrates that even if subsequently

[01:05:21] Ale tries to claim kinship,

[01:05:26] I just don't think he can.

[01:05:27] I mean,

[01:05:27] when he encounters the two sons of Feanor

[01:05:31] that Arithel had been intending to come and visit,

[01:05:35] when he's chasing after his wife and his son,

[01:05:39] then Ale mounted his horse saying,

[01:05:41] it is good,

[01:05:41] Lord Corfin,

[01:05:42] to find a kinsman thus kindly at need.

[01:05:45] I will remember it when I return.

[01:05:48] Then Corfin looked darkly upon Ale.

[01:05:51] Do not flaunt the title of your wife before me,

[01:05:55] he said,

[01:05:55] for those who steal the daughters of the Noldor

[01:05:58] and wed them without gift or leave

[01:06:00] do not gain kinship with their kin.

[01:06:03] I have given you leave to go.

[01:06:04] Take it and be gone.

[01:06:06] By the laws of the Eldar,

[01:06:08] I may not slay you at this time.

[01:06:10] And this counsel I add,

[01:06:13] return now to your dwelling in the darkness of Nan Elmoth,

[01:06:16] for my heart warns me that if you now pursue those who love you no more,

[01:06:21] never will you return thither.

[01:06:23] So just that one paragraph,

[01:06:25] we've got fate,

[01:06:26] we've got counsel,

[01:06:28] we've got foreboding.

[01:06:31] Tolkien just crams it all in here.

[01:06:33] It's really quite extraordinary.

[01:06:35] But it's clear that Corfin does not consider them married,

[01:06:38] and therefore,

[01:06:39] Ale is not a kinsman.

[01:06:41] But to me,

[01:06:43] see,

[01:06:43] here's the complication,

[01:06:45] is that this doesn't read to me as

[01:06:47] you have taken,

[01:06:49] he does say steal,

[01:06:50] but it doesn't read to me as

[01:06:52] this was not a consensual marriage.

[01:06:53] It reads to me as

[01:06:55] a racial thing.

[01:06:56] This feels to me like

[01:06:58] an issue with an interracial marriage

[01:07:00] by a racist person.

[01:07:02] Interesting.

[01:07:03] Interesting.

[01:07:03] That's how I read it.

[01:07:04] And so in this moment,

[01:07:05] I'm actually rooting for Ale

[01:07:07] just in this particular exchange.

[01:07:09] I'm like,

[01:07:10] hey,

[01:07:11] that's a bigoted take.

[01:07:14] That's really fascinating.

[01:07:17] Just based on the information

[01:07:19] that Corfin has,

[01:07:20] is what I'm saying.

[01:07:21] Sure, sure.

[01:07:22] And I absolutely agree with you

[01:07:23] that as a subtext,

[01:07:25] I'm sure that there is this racist approach.

[01:07:29] Because of the,

[01:07:30] you know,

[01:07:30] he looked darkly upon

[01:07:32] Ale and so on and so on.

[01:07:35] But he does instance,

[01:07:37] well,

[01:07:38] the fact that he says

[01:07:38] the daughters of the Noldor

[01:07:39] instead of

[01:07:40] those who steal

[01:07:42] elf women

[01:07:44] or lady elves,

[01:07:45] as you put it,

[01:07:46] or whatever,

[01:07:47] and let them without gift relief

[01:07:48] would indicate,

[01:07:49] okay,

[01:07:50] there's not as much of this

[01:07:51] us-them going on.

[01:07:52] But yeah.

[01:07:53] Also because they're perfectly

[01:07:54] pleasant to him.

[01:07:55] They're a little mocking,

[01:07:56] but they're perfectly pleasant

[01:07:57] to him

[01:07:57] prior to this moment.

[01:07:59] And then when he says,

[01:08:01] kinsmen,

[01:08:01] that's what sets off Corfin,

[01:08:04] is saying we're the same.

[01:08:06] And I think that that's what says to me

[01:08:08] this is not about consent at all

[01:08:09] in this exchange.

[01:08:10] This is about,

[01:08:11] we are not the same.

[01:08:13] You are not like me.

[01:08:14] Yeah, okay.

[01:08:15] I can see that.

[01:08:15] I don't remember that Corfin

[01:08:17] was all that gracious to Ale

[01:08:19] when they first found him.

[01:08:21] I think it was more mocking.

[01:08:23] It was definitely mocking.

[01:08:24] I'll say that much.

[01:08:25] But yeah,

[01:08:26] I think you're absolutely right

[01:08:27] that that word kinsmen

[01:08:29] touched a nerve

[01:08:30] and

[01:08:32] that was that.

[01:08:33] But now,

[01:08:34] again,

[01:08:35] this question of

[01:08:36] are they legally

[01:08:37] wet or not,

[01:08:39] when

[01:08:40] Ale is in front of

[01:08:42] Turgon

[01:08:42] and everybody

[01:08:43] and

[01:08:43] Arithal is there

[01:08:45] and

[01:08:45] Maglin is there,

[01:08:47] at first

[01:08:48] Ale says,

[01:08:49] I'm,

[01:08:50] you know,

[01:08:50] this is my wife and my son

[01:08:51] and I'm here to take them back.

[01:08:53] And Turgon is

[01:08:55] like,

[01:08:55] are you kidding me?

[01:08:57] And it's Arithal

[01:08:58] who says,

[01:08:59] he speaks but the truth.

[01:09:01] He is Ale

[01:09:02] and I am his wife.

[01:09:05] Now,

[01:09:06] according to what I read before

[01:09:07] from Laws and Customs,

[01:09:09] that's a marriage.

[01:09:11] Right.

[01:09:11] I think she's,

[01:09:12] if nothing else,

[01:09:13] if they were not married before now,

[01:09:15] she's ratifying the marriage.

[01:09:16] Yes.

[01:09:17] Right?

[01:09:17] She is.

[01:09:17] Yes.

[01:09:18] She is creating the marriage

[01:09:19] in front of everyone,

[01:09:20] if only to save Ale.

[01:09:23] And he is the father of my son.

[01:09:25] Now,

[01:09:25] was she saving Ale

[01:09:26] for her own sake

[01:09:27] or for her son's sake?

[01:09:28] Fair enough.

[01:09:30] What,

[01:09:31] what do you know about like

[01:09:32] the legitimacy

[01:09:33] and,

[01:09:34] and,

[01:09:35] you know,

[01:09:35] we just finished

[01:09:36] House of the Dragon.

[01:09:37] What do you know about

[01:09:37] bastards in Tolkien?

[01:09:40] Yeah,

[01:09:40] that's a really interesting question.

[01:09:42] I don't,

[01:09:43] I,

[01:09:43] hmm.

[01:09:45] I cannot recall

[01:09:46] a single bastard in Tolkien.

[01:09:49] And by the way,

[01:09:50] we're using bastard

[01:09:50] in the very Game of Thrones-y way.

[01:09:52] We're not going to use that

[01:09:53] in the real world,

[01:09:54] but,

[01:09:54] yes,

[01:09:55] a child not born

[01:09:56] of a legal marriage.

[01:09:57] From wed parents,

[01:09:58] yes,

[01:09:59] yes.

[01:09:59] Mm-hmm.

[01:10:00] Um,

[01:10:02] I don't think he,

[01:10:04] I don't know,

[01:10:05] listeners write in,

[01:10:05] but I'm,

[01:10:06] I'm not thinking of anything

[01:10:07] off the top of my head.

[01:10:10] Mm-hmm.

[01:10:10] That is really interesting.

[01:10:11] And the thing is,

[01:10:12] as soon as Ardell says that,

[01:10:15] Turgon says,

[01:10:18] um,

[01:10:19] Turgon treated him with honor

[01:10:20] and rose up

[01:10:21] and would take his hand

[01:10:22] and he said,

[01:10:22] welcome kinsman,

[01:10:23] for so I hold you.

[01:10:25] Here you shall dwell

[01:10:26] at your pleasure,

[01:10:27] save only that

[01:10:27] you must here abide

[01:10:29] and depart not

[01:10:30] from my kingdom,

[01:10:30] for it is my law

[01:10:31] that none who finds

[01:10:32] the way hither shall depart.

[01:10:34] Hmm.

[01:10:37] He's like,

[01:10:38] sure,

[01:10:38] you're my kinsman,

[01:10:39] but you gotta follow

[01:10:40] the rules of all my kinsman now.

[01:10:41] Right.

[01:10:42] Which even my sister

[01:10:43] was supposed to follow

[01:10:44] and then I have regretted

[01:10:46] letting her go

[01:10:47] ever since I did.

[01:10:49] And I think the point here

[01:10:50] is that

[01:10:51] Eol is trying to get

[01:10:53] all the benefits

[01:10:53] of being a kinsman.

[01:10:55] Sure.

[01:10:55] And none of the duties.

[01:10:57] None of the responsibilities.

[01:10:58] None of the requirements.

[01:10:58] Yeah.

[01:10:59] Yeah.

[01:10:59] And as we know

[01:11:00] from Peter Parker's uncle,

[01:11:02] Ben,

[01:11:03] great power comes

[01:11:04] great responsibility.

[01:11:05] Great responsibility.

[01:11:05] And Eol does not have

[01:11:07] the excuse of ignorance.

[01:11:08] He knew full well

[01:11:10] that anybody who enters

[01:11:11] Gondolin

[01:11:12] is not permitted

[01:11:13] to leave.

[01:11:14] Right.

[01:11:15] And he was even

[01:11:15] worn by Korofin, right?

[01:11:17] He was worn by Korofin.

[01:11:18] Yes.

[01:11:19] Yes.

[01:11:20] Mm-hmm.

[01:11:20] And we know Korofin

[01:11:22] has never been

[01:11:25] bad intended.

[01:11:28] I couldn't even get

[01:11:29] through that sentence.

[01:11:30] No, getting back to

[01:11:31] Rings of Power for a second,

[01:11:33] my personal headcanon

[01:11:34] is from that

[01:11:34] very first episode,

[01:11:36] the really nasty

[01:11:38] kid who throws rocks

[01:11:39] at young Galadriel's

[01:11:41] boat is Korofin.

[01:11:43] I can see it.

[01:11:45] I'm into this.

[01:11:46] Yes.

[01:11:47] All right.

[01:11:48] I'm with you

[01:11:48] on the headcanon.

[01:11:50] Yeah.

[01:11:51] Yeah.

[01:11:53] This is a really

[01:11:54] interesting conversation,

[01:11:55] Marilyn.

[01:11:56] I'm fascinated by this

[01:11:57] idea of consent

[01:12:00] and when sex is allowed

[01:12:03] in Tolkien.

[01:12:03] I mean, here's the thing

[01:12:05] is like, I don't think

[01:12:06] it's just that Tolkien's

[01:12:07] ignoring rape.

[01:12:08] I think he's mostly

[01:12:09] ignoring sex in his

[01:12:10] writing because it makes

[01:12:12] him uncomfortable.

[01:12:13] I think that's pretty much

[01:12:14] the deal here.

[01:12:15] Hey, you know, if your

[01:12:17] parents both die by the

[01:12:18] time you're 12 and you're

[01:12:19] brought up by celibate

[01:12:20] priests, it's going to be

[01:12:24] kind of difficult.

[01:12:24] He's like, I can't stop

[01:12:25] these hippies in real life,

[01:12:26] but damn me if I won't

[01:12:29] stop them in my book.

[01:12:31] Yeah.

[01:12:32] Yeah.

[01:12:32] Seriously.

[01:12:33] Another point.

[01:12:36] Turgon's whole approach

[01:12:37] to this question.

[01:12:39] The king listened with

[01:12:40] wonder to all that

[01:12:41] Aravel had to tell and he

[01:12:43] looked with liking upon

[01:12:45] Maglin his sister's son

[01:12:46] seeing in him one worthy

[01:12:48] to be counted among the

[01:12:49] princes of Anoldor.

[01:12:53] So, clearly, for Turgon,

[01:12:56] this issue of Noldor

[01:12:58] versus Sindar is not an

[01:12:59] issue.

[01:13:00] He's looking at Maglin as

[01:13:02] an individual.

[01:13:03] Now, maybe he's a little

[01:13:05] blind because Idril sees

[01:13:07] better than her father did.

[01:13:09] But still,

[01:13:13] Yeah.

[01:13:13] Aravel has claimed him

[01:13:15] as her son, claimed him

[01:13:18] as product of a legal

[01:13:19] marriage, if that matters,

[01:13:20] because we don't know how

[01:13:22] they view that particular

[01:13:24] topic of children of

[01:13:25] unwet parents.

[01:13:27] I rejoice, indeed, that

[01:13:29] Arpheniel has returned to

[01:13:30] Gondolin, he said, and now

[01:13:32] more fair again shall my

[01:13:33] city seem than in the days

[01:13:34] when I deemed her lost.

[01:13:36] And to Maglin she'll have

[01:13:38] the highest honor in my

[01:13:39] realm.

[01:13:41] Then Maglin bowed low and

[01:13:43] took Turgon for lord and

[01:13:44] king to do all his will.

[01:13:46] But thereafter he stood

[01:13:47] silent and watchful for the

[01:13:48] bliss and splendor of

[01:13:49] Gondolin surpassed all that

[01:13:51] he imagined from the tales

[01:13:52] of his mother.

[01:13:53] And he was amazed by the

[01:13:55] city, its strength, and

[01:13:56] its hosts of people, and

[01:13:58] the many things strange and

[01:13:59] beautiful that he beheld.

[01:14:01] Yet to none were his eyes

[01:14:03] more often drawn than to

[01:14:04] Idril, the king's daughter,

[01:14:05] who sat beside him.

[01:14:07] For she was golden as the

[01:14:08] Vanyar, her mother's

[01:14:10] kindred, and she seemed to

[01:14:11] him as the sun from which

[01:14:12] all the king's hall drew

[01:14:13] its light.

[01:14:16] So, all of these, quote

[01:14:20] unquote, from the very

[01:14:21] beginning moments, are

[01:14:23] fraught.

[01:14:24] Hmm.

[01:14:26] Yeah.

[01:14:28] And do you trace the cause

[01:14:31] back to Turgon's ban on

[01:14:33] people leaving Gondolin?

[01:14:35] That seems a bit specious

[01:14:37] to me.

[01:14:37] It seems a bit too simple.

[01:14:41] I think it's just part of

[01:14:43] the pattern, right?

[01:14:44] This is a part of a

[01:14:45] pattern of closing your

[01:14:49] realm to others, closing

[01:14:51] your heart to others, and

[01:14:55] focusing on the differences

[01:14:56] between elves who really

[01:14:57] aren't all that different

[01:14:58] to begin with.

[01:15:00] Mm-hmm.

[01:15:00] Mm-hmm.

[01:15:02] And I think Turgon, his

[01:15:04] actions make a lot of

[01:15:05] sense in the context of

[01:15:07] where he is.

[01:15:07] We're talking a lot about

[01:15:08] context now because we're

[01:15:09] all making jokes on TikTok.

[01:15:13] But, you know, I think his

[01:15:15] actions take, they make

[01:15:17] sense in the context of what

[01:15:18] he's given, but they're not

[01:15:19] great, right?

[01:15:21] Mm-hmm.

[01:15:22] Yeah.

[01:15:23] I mean, he had that open

[01:15:25] kingdom, you know, on the

[01:15:27] shores of the sea and the

[01:15:28] beautiful halls of Inyamar and

[01:15:30] so on.

[01:15:31] Yeah.

[01:15:32] But he did receive that

[01:15:34] warning from Ulmo, and he

[01:15:35] was guided by Ulmo to this

[01:15:37] place.

[01:15:38] Yeah.

[01:15:40] So, that could be a partial

[01:15:43] definition of fate in

[01:15:44] Tolkien's world.

[01:15:46] That's true.

[01:15:46] And yet, he ignored the most

[01:15:48] important warning.

[01:15:50] Love not overmuch the works

[01:15:53] of your hands and the devices

[01:15:55] of your heart.

[01:15:57] For, ultimately, redemption

[01:16:01] comes from the West.

[01:16:04] Right.

[01:16:05] You know, you are not going

[01:16:06] to succeed in this.

[01:16:07] It was doomed from the start.

[01:16:10] And at the end, all of this

[01:16:13] is going to be destroyed.

[01:16:14] Right.

[01:16:15] And much that you have

[01:16:18] produced is beautiful and

[01:16:19] wonderful, and if you wish to

[01:16:20] preserve it, oh, and by the

[01:16:22] way, the lives of your people,

[01:16:24] when the time comes, listen

[01:16:26] to the warnings that come

[01:16:29] from Avala.

[01:16:29] Get out of there.

[01:16:31] But this is, again, Tolkien's

[01:16:33] mega-theme, the dangers of

[01:16:35] possessiveness.

[01:16:36] Yeah.

[01:16:37] Love not overmuch the work of

[01:16:38] thine hand and the devices of

[01:16:40] thy heart.

[01:16:41] Well, that's a light note to

[01:16:43] end it on, Marilyn.

[01:16:46] Are you looking for

[01:16:47] lightness in the Silmarillion,

[01:16:49] John?

[01:16:49] If you are, I think you're

[01:16:51] kind of looking in the wrong

[01:16:52] place.

[01:16:53] At least until the very end.

[01:16:55] I mean, it does end on a

[01:16:56] happier note.

[01:16:56] We have to say that.

[01:16:57] There's some happy notes

[01:16:59] coming up.

[01:16:59] Like, I just recorded a

[01:17:02] Baron and Luthie in part

[01:17:03] one with someone.

[01:17:04] Ah.

[01:17:05] And that's a much happier

[01:17:07] story.

[01:17:08] Yes.

[01:17:09] Freedom from bondage.

[01:17:11] It's a lot more consensual,

[01:17:12] at least.

[01:17:13] Very much more consensual.

[01:17:14] And interesting to think

[01:17:17] about in the context of

[01:17:19] marriage.

[01:17:19] I mean, they could legally,

[01:17:21] in the eyes of the elves,

[01:17:22] according to the laws and

[01:17:24] customs of the Eldar,

[01:17:25] they could have gone off

[01:17:26] together, declared their

[01:17:27] marriage to each other,

[01:17:29] and that would have been

[01:17:30] that.

[01:17:31] But it was Baron who

[01:17:32] actually,

[01:17:35] probably because of the

[01:17:37] laws and customs of humans,

[01:17:39] which we don't ever really see

[01:17:40] codified,

[01:17:41] at least not by Tolkien,

[01:17:43] he was the one who felt it was

[01:17:46] dangerous to take a wife

[01:17:49] without the consent of the

[01:17:50] father.

[01:17:51] I think, if I'm going to be

[01:17:53] really generous, because there

[01:17:54] is an element of, well, whose

[01:17:55] possession is she?

[01:17:57] Yeah.

[01:17:58] But if I'm going to be

[01:17:59] generous to this whole thing,

[01:18:02] I think I would say that

[01:18:04] Baron wants a good

[01:18:05] relationship with his in-laws,

[01:18:06] you know?

[01:18:07] Exactly.

[01:18:08] Exactly.

[01:18:08] Like, it's okay to just not

[01:18:10] break the bonds, right?

[01:18:13] The absence of the blessing

[01:18:15] of a parent,

[01:18:18] it's going to affect the

[01:18:19] relationship.

[01:18:20] I was very lucky that when I

[01:18:22] asked my in-laws, and I

[01:18:23] asked them both, by the way,

[01:18:24] because we live in the 21st

[01:18:26] fucking century.

[01:18:27] There you go.

[01:18:27] But when I asked my in-laws

[01:18:29] for their blessing,

[01:18:31] to ask my wife to marry me,

[01:18:33] I couldn't get through the

[01:18:34] sentence before my mother-in-law,

[01:18:36] my future mother-in-law at the

[01:18:37] time, ripped the ring out of

[01:18:39] my hands and started screaming

[01:18:40] in excitement.

[01:18:41] So I was very lucky in that

[01:18:42] sense.

[01:18:44] I'm glad she didn't rip it out

[01:18:46] of your hand and throw it at

[01:18:47] you.

[01:18:47] No, no, no.

[01:18:48] She started screaming in

[01:18:49] excitement, and my wife was

[01:18:51] showering in the other room,

[01:18:52] and we said, hey, keep it

[01:18:52] down, because she's going to

[01:18:53] get wind of something.

[01:18:55] Yeah.

[01:18:56] But it was, it was, it's very

[01:18:57] funny.

[01:18:58] But yeah, Baron had a harder

[01:19:00] time impressing his in-laws.

[01:19:02] I'm glad that you did not have to

[01:19:03] see Chris somewhere, old

[01:19:05] John, because that would have

[01:19:06] been tough.

[01:19:08] I couldn't even finish the

[01:19:09] question, so definitely no

[01:19:11] Silmaril Hunt for me.

[01:19:14] Thank goodness.

[01:19:15] All right, Marilyn, it's been

[01:19:17] fun.

[01:19:18] Thank you again for coming on.

[01:19:20] What else are you working on?

[01:19:21] I know you're in the middle of

[01:19:23] Rings of Power with us by the

[01:19:24] time this airs, because I think

[01:19:25] this is going to air in

[01:19:26] September, actually.

[01:19:28] Yes, yes.

[01:19:28] We will be deep in the

[01:19:30] throes, and it'll be very

[01:19:31] interesting to see.

[01:19:32] There's been so many things,

[01:19:34] quote-unquote, spilled, you

[01:19:36] know, teasers and trailers and

[01:19:38] official trailers and behind

[01:19:39] the scenes and so on and so

[01:19:41] on and so on.

[01:19:41] That's why I've stopped

[01:19:42] looking at it.

[01:19:43] I'm like, I'm just going to

[01:19:44] spoil myself for the season at

[01:19:45] this point.

[01:19:46] Yeah.

[01:19:46] Well, I kind of, I'm much less

[01:19:49] concerned about being spoiled

[01:19:50] with this time around.

[01:19:53] I'm not sure why, but I think it

[01:19:55] mostly has to do with feeling

[01:19:57] as though I understand the basic

[01:20:01] framework that they're working

[01:20:02] in now and accepted that there

[01:20:06] will be many things that are

[01:20:08] not part of my own canon as

[01:20:12] well as the canon of the bits

[01:20:14] and pieces that we have.

[01:20:15] So, it really is just a question

[01:20:17] of, oh, what kind of story are

[01:20:19] they going to tell?

[01:20:20] And I don't mind finding out

[01:20:21] hints in advance.

[01:20:23] And, of course, the way they put

[01:20:24] together spoilers, you know, they

[01:20:26] can create one impression when

[01:20:28] it's actually something quite

[01:20:29] different.

[01:20:29] So, I'm taking it all with, you

[01:20:30] know, lashings of salt.

[01:20:33] And I'm very excited to see what

[01:20:35] all it's going to contain.

[01:20:36] And then, even more excited to

[01:20:38] eventually have Sarah and I get

[01:20:40] together again and do season two

[01:20:41] of Rings and Rituals.

[01:20:43] That'll be a lot of fun.

[01:20:44] Yeah.

[01:20:44] Looking forward to it.

[01:20:47] Marilyn, I will include the link to

[01:20:49] your Rings and Rituals feed, of

[01:20:50] course, in our link tree.

[01:20:52] Great.

[01:20:52] It's always there.

[01:20:53] But also, I will put in your

[01:20:55] scholarship page, too, in the show

[01:20:57] notes.

[01:20:57] Excellent.

[01:20:58] Thank you so much.

[01:20:59] You're a special feature guest on

[01:21:00] this podcast.

[01:21:01] Aw.

[01:21:02] Well, thank you.

[01:21:02] And we're both thinking about

[01:21:04] certain scholarship.

[01:21:06] We're thinking about it.

[01:21:06] For a future.

[01:21:07] We've got to figure out if we can

[01:21:08] fit it in still.

[01:21:09] We do.

[01:21:09] We do.

[01:21:10] It's a busy time to be doing it.

[01:21:12] I told myself, okay, so I'll get

[01:21:13] most of the work done in August

[01:21:14] because September will be crazy.

[01:21:16] Right.

[01:21:16] Have I gotten any work done on it?

[01:21:20] Just enough to realize I have a lot

[01:21:21] of work to do.

[01:21:23] Yeah, let's see where we get with

[01:21:24] that.

[01:21:25] But yeah.

[01:21:26] Marilyn, always a pleasure to talk

[01:21:28] Tolkien with you.

[01:21:29] And I will be talking Tolkien with you

[01:21:31] a lot soon.

[01:21:32] We're recording this in August

[01:21:33] before Rings of Power and a lot of

[01:21:35] Rings of Power ahead of us.

[01:21:36] Can't wait.

[01:21:37] And it's a delight to talk Tolkien

[01:21:39] with you, too, John.

[01:21:40] G'day, Marilyn.

[01:21:41] G'day.

[01:21:42] Well, that was a great conversation

[01:21:43] with Marilyn.

[01:21:44] And I hope you'll stick around for

[01:21:46] the outro so you can learn what else

[01:21:47] we're doing on the Lorehounds

[01:21:49] Network.

[01:21:50] Of course, we've got our affiliates

[01:21:51] like Nevermind the Music doing

[01:21:52] their weekly podcast.

[01:21:54] I'm recording this in advance, so

[01:21:56] I'm not sure exactly which episode

[01:21:57] is going to be out when this

[01:21:59] episode drops.

[01:22:00] But they are doing a great

[01:22:03] breakdown of different songs,

[01:22:05] different eras of music,

[01:22:06] different musical themes through

[01:22:07] the lens of psychology.

[01:22:09] So they have a music professor and

[01:22:11] a psychology professor, and they

[01:22:13] both bring something to the table

[01:22:14] on the analysis.

[01:22:15] We also have Radioactive

[01:22:17] Ramblings, a Fallout podcast,

[01:22:19] which is no longer just a

[01:22:20] Fallout podcast.

[01:22:21] It is now doing the Red Rising

[01:22:23] Book Club.

[01:22:24] Very exciting stuff, and I hope

[01:22:26] people check it out.

[01:22:27] It's a really great series, so

[01:22:28] they're doing a great job

[01:22:29] breaking it down, too.

[01:22:32] In January, Steve and Anthony

[01:22:34] from Probably Howard are going

[01:22:35] to be joining us to cover

[01:22:36] Severance, so stick around for

[01:22:38] that.

[01:22:39] And in the meantime, on the

[01:22:41] Lorehounds Network, we have

[01:22:43] Woolshift Dust.

[01:22:45] Silo is just about to come

[01:22:46] back.

[01:22:47] I know Alicia and Luke are going

[01:22:48] to be doing some preseason

[01:22:49] coverage, and then they will

[01:22:52] be going right into weekly

[01:22:53] coverage.

[01:22:54] They've got screeners, so

[01:22:55] hopefully pretty soon after

[01:22:57] the episode.

[01:22:58] I'm not sure what their timing

[01:22:59] plan is, but they are going

[01:23:01] to be able to dive really deep

[01:23:02] thanks to that.

[01:23:03] And on the Lorehounds feed

[01:23:05] itself, we just wrapped up

[01:23:07] The Rings of Power.

[01:23:08] Currently, Agatha All Along is

[01:23:10] going, and I think it's

[01:23:12] wrapping up maybe the week I

[01:23:14] dropped this, depending on

[01:23:15] when I drop this.

[01:23:16] And so that's going really well,

[01:23:19] and I hope it continues to go

[01:23:20] well.

[01:23:22] And coming up soon is going to

[01:23:24] be Dune Sisterhood, which is

[01:23:26] going to be a new show on HBO

[01:23:28] Max that David and Alicia are

[01:23:30] going to be covering in the Dune

[01:23:31] universe, in the Timothy

[01:23:32] Shalloverse, if you will.

[01:23:35] So plenty of other stuff

[01:23:36] coming on the Lorehounds

[01:23:37] network, especially we have

[01:23:39] second breakfast every month.

[01:23:40] We just did Elevensees on

[01:23:44] Poltergeist.

[01:23:45] We did Poltergeist 1 and

[01:23:48] Poltergeist the Remake in

[01:23:49] 2015 for the public.

[01:23:51] Then we did the sequels to

[01:23:52] Poltergeist on the private

[01:23:53] feed.

[01:23:54] So check out the links in the

[01:23:56] link tree to get access to all

[01:23:58] of our exclusive content as

[01:23:59] well.

[01:24:01] Now before we head out, I have

[01:24:03] thank yous for our

[01:24:05] Discord server boosters and

[01:24:07] our Loremasters.

[01:24:07] So starting with our Discord

[01:24:08] server boosters, we have

[01:24:10] Aaron K, Killer the Thriller,

[01:24:12] Dork of the Ninjas, Doove

[01:24:13] 71, Athena A, Tina, Lestu,

[01:24:17] Nancy M, Ghost of Partition,

[01:24:20] and Richard W.

[01:24:21] Then our Loremasters are top

[01:24:23] tier supporters on Patreon and

[01:24:24] Supercast.

[01:24:25] We have Samartian, David G,

[01:24:28] Michelle E, Brian P, SC,

[01:24:31] Peter OH, Bettina W, Adam S,

[01:24:33] Nancy M, Doove 71, Brian 8063,

[01:24:37] Frederick H, Sarah L, Gareth C,

[01:24:40] Eric F, Matthew M, Sarah M,

[01:24:43] DJ Miwa, Andra B, Kwong Yu,

[01:24:46] Dead Eye Jedi Bob, Nathan T,

[01:24:48] Alex V, Aaron T, Sub-Zero,

[01:24:51] Aaron K, Dally V, Mothership 61,

[01:24:54] Gnarls, Kathy W, Listu, Jeffrey B,

[01:24:58] Elisa Yu, Fossey Yu, Neil F, Ben B,

[01:25:02] Scott F, and Adrian.

[01:25:05] Thanks everyone for listening and

[01:25:06] we'll be back next month with the

[01:25:08] next chapter of the Silmarillion.

[01:25:10] The Lorehounds Podcast is produced

[01:25:12] and published by The Lorehounds.

[01:25:13] You can send questions and feedback

[01:25:15] and voicemails at

[01:25:16] thelorehounds.com slash contact.

[01:25:19] Get early and ad-free access to all

[01:25:21] Lorehounds Podcasts at

[01:25:23] patreon.com slash the Lorehounds.

[01:25:24] Any opinions stated are ours personally

[01:25:26] and do not reflect the opinion of

[01:25:28] or belong to any employers

[01:25:29] or other entities.

[01:25:30] Thanks for listening.