John is joined by Marilyn R. Pukkila to discuss Of Túrin Turambar, the twenty-fourth portion of The Silmarillion. They discuss the Norse origins of Túrin, the effects of curses and expectations, and the changes in Thingol.
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Marilyn R. Pukkila, Research & Instruction Librarian Emerita, Colby College
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00:19 --> 00:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to Silmerlean Stories, where the lorehounds your guides to Tolkien's world of Middle-earth.
00:24 --> 00:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm John, and this is our podcast for of Tornin Turin, Bar Part 1.
00:29 --> 00:31 [SPEAKER_02]: The 24th portion of the Silmerlean.
00:31 --> 00:37 [SPEAKER_02]: In this episode, we're going to be getting into the curse of Morgoth, the kindness of Thingol, and the children of Hurin.
00:37 --> 00:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you want to get in on that Tolkien talk, you can send an email to locrthalorehounds.com or visit the lorehounds.com.
00:43 --> 00:45 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's contact to leave a voicemail.
00:46 --> 00:52 [SPEAKER_02]: One more note, if you want to support us directly, you can click the link tree in the show notes and get to Patreon, supercast.
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01:00 --> 01:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And today, my guest for this episode is again, our favorite token scholar, Marilyn Arbukila, Marilyn, welcome back.
01:09 --> 01:10 [SPEAKER_01]: How you doing?
01:10 --> 01:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, John.
01:10 --> 01:13 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so good to be back, and I'm doing very well.
01:13 --> 01:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
01:14 --> 01:16 [SPEAKER_02]: people know you're background on Tolkien so far.
01:16 --> 01:18 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think we should just get into it.
01:19 --> 01:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Agreed.
01:20 --> 01:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Agreed.
01:21 --> 01:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Can I get your overall vibe check background on this chapter?
01:25 --> 01:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Because this is one of the three great tales, right?
01:28 --> 01:32 [SPEAKER_02]: This is, you know, of Tolkien's legendary.
01:32 --> 01:38 [SPEAKER_02]: There were three tales out of the
01:38 --> 01:49 [SPEAKER_02]: those are the children of Huren, which is this, it tied the old of Turin, Turin, Barb, in the Silmarillion, but then the children of Huren, in the Stameleon work, and in the Tales of Neumin-Arm Middle-Earth.
01:51 --> 01:54 [SPEAKER_02]: There's also the Fall of Garmalin, and Baran and Lothian.
01:55 --> 01:56 [SPEAKER_02]: So those are the three great tales.
01:56 --> 01:57 [SPEAKER_02]: We've done two of them.
01:58 --> 02:06 [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to do the third one
02:06 --> 02:33 [SPEAKER_01]: what I know you're gonna go into a hero right and a hero in a very specific sense yeah so so can you give us your overall impressions and then maybe go right into that yeah well um my first thought to put before everybody is i know love people will say oh bear an eludian this was Tolkien's love story you know this was the most one personal him
02:34 --> 02:38 [SPEAKER_01]: children told him about being the most personal story for Tolkien.
02:39 --> 03:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Because he first got into the whole notion of the unfortunate hero when he discovered the Galavila and the figure of Kuroleva and he just immediately identified so strongly with this character at age 16 or so and it just kind of went on from there.
03:00 --> 03:04 [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't stop with Google, I've also been titled my TED Talk tonight this.
03:05 --> 03:12 [SPEAKER_01]: The three-part heroic personality of Torin Torinbar, I mean, he had 15 names that he gave himself.
03:12 --> 03:14 [SPEAKER_02]: I know, I counted three in this portion.
03:14 --> 03:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
03:15 --> 03:24 [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's more coming up, and I just want to be clear, you mentioned it was the only thing from this was one of the first tales he wrote that eventually became part of the legend area.
03:24 --> 03:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Correct?
03:24 --> 03:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he did actually write his own version of the story before this one.
03:30 --> 03:37 [SPEAKER_01]: But before that in 1911, he discovered Kirby's 1907 translation of the Kamala.
03:38 --> 03:41 [SPEAKER_01]: which was first written in published in 1849.
03:41 --> 04:01 [SPEAKER_01]: This is, of course, the finished epic, the collection of tales made by one Elias Lundorot, who was a Swedish physician, and he spent all of his time off tripping through swaps and bogs and wandering in the north and the west to collect stories from the storytellers.
04:03 --> 04:07 [SPEAKER_01]: From the original people who would sing these, they called Membronos or Cantos.
04:08 --> 04:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And they were sung in a very specific way.
04:10 --> 04:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it was a single old woman by the fire singing in the song.
04:14 --> 04:22 [SPEAKER_01]: But more often than not, it was two old men sitting together with a third old man in background playing the gun, Della, which is the finished dance, so instrument.
04:23 --> 04:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And they would actually clasp hands and rock back and forth and the bleeds singer sing the first line.
04:31 --> 04:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the other person would sing that light back to him in a different form.
04:36 --> 04:39 [SPEAKER_01]: This gave a lead singer time to remember the next line.
04:40 --> 04:43 [SPEAKER_02]: It sounds almost like a round, but a twisted round.
04:44 --> 04:47 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not exactly round because nobody is ever singing over anybody else.
04:49 --> 04:49 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no two people who are singing.
04:49 --> 04:51 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought they overlapped a little bit.
04:51 --> 04:52 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's calling response.
04:53 --> 04:53 [SPEAKER_02]: OK.
04:53 --> 04:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It's calling response.
04:54 --> 04:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
04:56 --> 05:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So Alias, Lunar on the publish, the Galaba first, as I said, in 1849.
05:03 --> 05:05 [SPEAKER_01]: But Kirby's translation was in 1907.
05:07 --> 05:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And Tolkien discovered this in 1911, and in 1912 he spoke at a Oxford College Society about it saying, I would we had something of that same sort that belonged to the English.
05:22 --> 05:50 [SPEAKER_01]: a call of all a set the rocket often story again that was his own phrase and he said it was the original germ of the silver leon now he said that about a number of stories of course over the years uh... it's one of total cancer characteristics but in this case i think you could make the case where it being the earliest germ of the silver leon because this pre-dates and no uh... by a couple of years yeah so
05:51 --> 05:59 [SPEAKER_01]: In those days, what he was trying to do was reorganize some of the Galavala, especially the tale of Kurudevo, the hapless into a form of my own.
06:00 --> 06:06 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, those are Tolkien's words, note the emphasis on the word hapless.
06:06 --> 06:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is one of the key characteristics of Toren that people tend to overlook or forget altogether.
06:12 --> 06:18 [SPEAKER_01]: A hapless, according to the OED, means destitute of or lacking good fortune.
06:18 --> 06:23 [SPEAKER_01]: unfortunate, unlucky, incompetent, clumsy, leclist.
06:24 --> 06:38 [SPEAKER_01]: So this word was first attested around 1400, and Tolkien felt a very strong personal connection to this character of Guru Neville, and so by extension to Tualdin Tudamboh, who was the Silmarillion's version of it.
06:40 --> 06:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So Dr. Verland figured it a wonderful
06:48 --> 07:04 [SPEAKER_01]: and if people are interested, they should really get a hold of the copy of this, because and then in this, she writes that the story of Gordovo's own circumstances read in a very deeply with Tolkien's early life, fatherless beneath the heavens, from the first without a mother.
07:05 --> 07:14 [SPEAKER_01]: These are phrases that Tolkien was writing in his retelling of the story and it's
07:15 --> 07:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And from the Kirby translation, Tolkien took almost word for word to write crucial lines.
07:21 --> 07:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I was small and lost my mother.
07:24 --> 07:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I was young or weak and lost my mother.
07:27 --> 07:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Kirby originally said mother, but Tolkien changed the first line.
07:32 --> 07:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I was small and lost my father.
07:35 --> 07:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I was young and lost my mother.
07:38 --> 07:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Tolkien lost his father when he was four and his mother died when he was 12.
07:44 --> 07:54 [SPEAKER_01]: as a Catholic, as part of the King's Colonials Regiment, because he was born in the Orange Tree State in Africa, so he was considered a colonial.
07:55 --> 08:03 [SPEAKER_01]: This man who absolutely adored Hingland as more than just a country, but he was considered a colonial because he was born anywhere in the United States.
08:03 --> 08:21 [SPEAKER_01]: He was an orphan, he was a misfit, because he was Catholic, an outsider, he was poor, he was a rebel, he was hapless, just like a poor level who's father died in battle with his uncle, who then took him and raised him among those who would often beat him and viewed him as an outsider.
08:23 --> 08:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So obviously, Jordan was raised in better circumstances than Google level.
08:29 --> 08:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
08:30 --> 08:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I would grow up in a doorhead first.
08:33 --> 08:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Seriously, I would appreciate that for myself.
08:37 --> 08:44 [SPEAKER_01]: But there is still this sense of weight because let us never forget, Jordan is the son of Jordan.
08:45 --> 08:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
08:46 --> 08:53 [SPEAKER_01]: and Holden was cursed by Mordagoth, who extended the curse, not just to Holden, but to his entire family.
08:53 --> 08:55 [SPEAKER_01]: This must not be forgotten.
08:56 --> 09:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So the next hero we should consider is Epis.
09:01 --> 09:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And to understand classical Greek heroes, I have a bit here from Bernard Knox's introduction to his own translation of the illid.
09:15 --> 09:22 [SPEAKER_01]: in that they were totally absorbed in the exercise of their own power and unchecked by any other consideration.
09:23 --> 09:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Other beings are considered either AIDS or obstacles to the exercise of their own power.
09:29 --> 09:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Unquestioning certainty of their own right and ability to make the right judgments is characteristic of Greek heroes.
09:39 --> 09:48 [SPEAKER_01]: They are often violent, anti-social, and yet at the same time they would hold up the possibility for other humans to achieve God-like tasks.
09:50 --> 10:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Often their stories include unwitting incest, continual striving against their own fate, and usually they do their best overcome circumstances which a God has already decreed
10:08 --> 10:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So, Adapis takes off all those boxes, and so, just toward it, and this is the piece of striving against the malice of watergough, which often times reduce tend to brush off and say, oh, that doesn't, you know, how important does that?
10:26 --> 10:31 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think we are very focused on the power of the individual.
10:32 --> 10:40 [SPEAKER_01]: But in ancient Greece, the power of the individual versus the power of the deities and their curses was as nothing.
10:42 --> 10:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So, this is the second of the three sides of the characters that put together who we know is to order to order a bar.
10:59 --> 11:10 [SPEAKER_02]: because you're going to argue now for the, for the impact of Morgoth and I'm going to argue that this family need, need to family therapy more than they need to help against Morgoth.
11:11 --> 11:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I, I'm an agreement with you John.
11:13 --> 11:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
11:13 --> 11:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
11:14 --> 11:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to be there because I, sorry.
11:16 --> 11:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I think Holden was really stupid.
11:20 --> 11:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
11:21 --> 11:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And the one overreneing characteristic of this entire family is pride.
11:27 --> 11:29 [SPEAKER_01]: which goes along with the ancient creak heroes.
11:29 --> 11:31 [SPEAKER_01]: They were very prideful.
11:31 --> 11:34 [SPEAKER_01]: That was one of their most, you know, recognizable qualities.
11:35 --> 11:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Who in their right minds is gonna make fun of a God?
11:40 --> 11:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
11:41 --> 11:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, talk about stupid.
11:44 --> 11:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, sure, Jen yourself up, you know, say, I'm not, you know, I'm not going to give in.
11:48 --> 11:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to give in.
11:49 --> 11:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to give in.
11:50 --> 11:59 [SPEAKER_01]: But don't tell this creature who was one of the oldest beings in existence and more powerful than any others, below a Louis Vuitton.
12:00 --> 12:01 [SPEAKER_01]: That is going to fail.
12:01 --> 12:02 [SPEAKER_01]: That he's stupid.
12:02 --> 12:08 [SPEAKER_01]: That he's all these things because that's when not just you, but your whole family is sunk.
12:11 --> 12:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So everybody, everybody praises water into the skies and loves how they endule about.
12:17 --> 12:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Day will come again.
12:18 --> 12:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And they just overlook this one little thing that he really has a lot of responsibility to bear for what happens to his wife and all his children.
12:30 --> 12:31 [SPEAKER_02]: I know, I know.
12:33 --> 12:35 [SPEAKER_02]: There's another emotion that I want to bring up here.
12:35 --> 12:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And I want to see if this dub tells with your hero theory here.
12:40 --> 12:41 [SPEAKER_02]: is fear.
12:42 --> 12:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I kept noticing the word fear pop up in this chapter, and I did a quick in my Kindle search for fear.
12:50 --> 12:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And by my count, there are 20 uses of the word fear or its conjugations in this chapter alone.
12:58 --> 12:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
13:00 --> 13:18 [SPEAKER_02]: It is constant, a Moruin fears for her son and touring fears, consequences, and the orcs fear that he ran away, the morgoth fears, or in whatever else, I don't remember the other examples.
13:18 --> 13:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I wrote them down as we go through some of them at least, some of the ones that jumped out to me.
13:28 --> 13:36 [SPEAKER_02]: being a driver of behavior is something that has been picked up by the developmental psychologists like Carol Gilligan, you know, you and I have a lot of love for her work.
13:36 --> 13:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Certainly do.
13:38 --> 13:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And we absolutely see Torren just completely avoiding dealing with his fear of loss in ways that are completely damaging to himself.
13:48 --> 13:49 [SPEAKER_02]: And it is in part pride.
13:50 --> 13:51 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, talking makes that clear.
13:51 --> 13:53 [SPEAKER_02]: He calls it out at certain points.
13:53 --> 14:01 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think this fear of loss, fear of consequences, fear of being wrong, is a large part of this too.
14:02 --> 14:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I, again, I completely agree with you.
14:05 --> 14:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think fear is one of those layering things, like anger.
14:10 --> 14:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, pride is one of the layering pieces.
14:14 --> 14:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that overlays fear.
14:16 --> 14:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
14:17 --> 14:19 [SPEAKER_01]: That overlays grief.
14:20 --> 14:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, if you start piling all these things up and don't ever get picked down to the source, then things are not necessarily going to go very well through anything.
14:28 --> 14:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
14:30 --> 14:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, pride to cover up here, very common.
14:34 --> 14:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Very common.
14:36 --> 14:39 [SPEAKER_02]: This guy just needed a good therapist.
14:39 --> 14:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I will just, I will die on that hill.
14:42 --> 14:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Torn to our bar needed a good therapist in Doria, but apparently, Thingol's health plan was not very good.
14:48 --> 14:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Probably because the elves don't need too much healing.
14:50 --> 14:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, because he never listens to Malian, so.
14:53 --> 14:54 [SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
14:54 --> 15:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Although we see a kinder side of Thingol in this chapter and for reasons for not out of nowhere.
15:04 --> 15:05 [SPEAKER_01]: No, which we will get to.
15:05 --> 15:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Let me get to that point.
15:06 --> 15:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
15:07 --> 15:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
15:08 --> 15:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Did you want to get into any other hero stuff, or do you want to spread any of that in?
15:11 --> 15:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Do I have a third in this trifecta?
15:15 --> 15:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is ziggord.
15:18 --> 15:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Ziggord, the dragon's layer.
15:20 --> 15:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm starting with a bit of text, which Tolkien put again in another one of his published writings.
15:26 --> 15:34 [SPEAKER_01]: The legend of ziggord and good duruna, which was edited by Christopher
15:34 --> 15:50 [SPEAKER_01]: If in the day of doom, one a deathless stands who has tasted death and dies no more, the serpent slayer seed Odin, then all shall not end, not earth perish.
15:51 --> 16:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And Tolkien Gateway tells us some of this is drawing on and places directly translating.
16:04 --> 16:08 [SPEAKER_01]: but its context and function are very different in Tolkien's poem.
16:09 --> 16:13 [SPEAKER_01]: The fulfillment of this prophecy as Odin ensures is to be ziggord.
16:14 --> 16:18 [SPEAKER_01]: He who shall come, who death has tasted and dyes no more.
16:19 --> 16:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Tolkien's reworking of ziggord as a Christ-like figure is done with a light touch.
16:24 --> 16:28 [SPEAKER_01]: bit of subtle source reshaping here, or isn't it turned afraised there?
16:28 --> 16:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And it takes nothing away from the original story, but invites us to read it in a new light with new eyes.
16:35 --> 16:41 [SPEAKER_01]: So Ziggard is easily marked as a hero because he's the son of a god of Odin and Odin.
16:42 --> 16:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Created him in part to clean up Odin's messes.
16:47 --> 16:48 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a whole new story.
16:48 --> 16:48 [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
16:49 --> 16:53 [SPEAKER_01]: But Tolkien picked up on this basic idea
16:53 --> 16:56 [SPEAKER_01]: and read, you know, translated as we heard.
16:57 --> 17:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And then incorporated in just several versions of his ongoing story of the Silmarlin.
17:04 --> 17:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It was called the Second Prophecy of Mentos.
17:07 --> 17:11 [SPEAKER_01]: which first appeared in the later quintessential Merlin, as early as 1958.
17:11 --> 17:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're not talking at recent development.
17:15 --> 17:21 [SPEAKER_01]: This was right after the time board of Drain's was published when he finally was able to put his attention on sale Merlin.
17:21 --> 17:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was trying to get it into publishable form.
17:24 --> 17:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And what he's talking about here is what Tolkien referred to in the prophecy of Maddoz, second prophecy of Maddoz is the Dagor Dagofoth, the last battle, the battle of battles.
17:37 --> 17:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So we can see similarities to a Ragnobrock, as I mentioned, to the book of Revelation and to other apocalyptic literature.
17:44 --> 17:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Now interestingly, Christopher decided that Tolkien had abandoned this idea for the summer early and the notion of the prophecy in the last battle and told him finally coming forth and slaying more to go.
18:00 --> 18:04 [SPEAKER_01]: But Douglas Kane, who has done an interesting study
18:04 --> 18:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Christopher's changes of the Silmarillion.
18:07 --> 18:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Notice that Tolkien made this specific edit of rejecting the last sentences, but he made no effort at all to remove the part of the prophecy regarding Toulten or the remaking of Ardda.
18:20 --> 18:23 [SPEAKER_01]: This would indicate that he had the intention to retain them.
18:24 --> 18:32 [SPEAKER_01]: The continuity of the prophecy in the legendarium is tied up to the complicated transition
18:33 --> 18:34 [SPEAKER_01]: as it explained here.
18:35 --> 19:00 [SPEAKER_01]: In that day, Tulticus shall strive with Mordinoth, and on his right-hand shall be aonway, and on his left, Toulton Toulton Mars, Son of Huron, returned from the doom of men at the ending of the world, and the black sort of Toulton shall deal unto Mordinoth his death and final end, and so shall the children of Huron and all men be avenged.
19:02 --> 19:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So finally, I think we have something that really makes sense of tour and being at the head of El Run's list of great elf friends of heroes.
19:14 --> 19:22 [SPEAKER_01]: When he says to Frodo, if you take this burden freely, then your place will be among the great heroes of tour and horded.
19:22 --> 19:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Notice who gets named first and all the others.
19:25 --> 19:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Your place would be among them.
19:28 --> 19:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And finally, it's important to remember that in any of the culture's stories of dragon slayers, any dragon slayer is if so facto, a hero.
19:37 --> 19:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's fair.
19:38 --> 19:41 [SPEAKER_02]: You slay a dragon that you buy a ticket to the hero land.
19:41 --> 19:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
19:42 --> 19:48 [SPEAKER_01]: This is one who defies evil and struggles against fate, and this kind of person is a hero.
19:49 --> 19:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Our contemporary notion of a hero is perhaps rather different from a hero of Norseaga's or that Galavala or the story of that of us.
19:56 --> 19:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's important for readers to keep that in mind.
20:00 --> 20:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
20:00 --> 20:05 [SPEAKER_02]: A hero has been morphed into more of a moral protagonist, right?
20:06 --> 20:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And if the protagonist becomes
20:11 --> 20:14 [SPEAKER_02]: a great character, we often call them an anti-hero.
20:14 --> 20:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Anti-hero, exactly.
20:15 --> 20:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
20:16 --> 20:19 [SPEAKER_02]: That's not so in classical tales, is what you're saying.
20:20 --> 20:20 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it is not.
20:20 --> 20:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think this is something of a Christianity on concept.
20:27 --> 20:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Prior to that, it was great deeds.
20:29 --> 20:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I'm not saying that I don't think heroes should also, you know, have, you know, rallying and kind of, and good things and so on and so on.
20:37 --> 20:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I just think it's important to judge, tool it in in his own context.
20:42 --> 20:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
20:42 --> 20:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And Superman is Space Jesus.
20:44 --> 20:44 [SPEAKER_02]: You heard it here, folks.
20:46 --> 20:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Not for me, but yeah, whatever.
20:49 --> 20:50 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I just mean like,
20:50 --> 21:05 [SPEAKER_02]: He's like a perfect moral person, he's super, you know, I do think that, I think you're right, Christianity has a lot to do with the rise of this idea of the hero has to be perfect, not just good.
21:07 --> 21:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and touring does some good things.
21:10 --> 21:12 [SPEAKER_01]: He also does some really messed up things.
21:15 --> 21:18 [SPEAKER_01]: He does.
21:18 --> 21:22 [SPEAKER_01]: But there's also some of them, just a thing, so yeah, I agree, I agree.
21:22 --> 21:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like you didn't want it though.
21:25 --> 21:26 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll get to it, we'll get to it.
21:26 --> 21:29 [SPEAKER_00]: One of them was the thing that you mentioned was fear.
21:29 --> 21:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
21:30 --> 21:33 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, probably the worst, his worst deed became out of fear.
21:34 --> 21:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And can you do that?
21:36 --> 21:37 [SPEAKER_02]: See, I don't think that's his worst deed.
21:37 --> 21:38 [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to get to it.
21:38 --> 21:39 [SPEAKER_01]: OK, you can get to it.
21:39 --> 21:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's get to it, let's get to it.
21:41 --> 21:42 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, it is what we're going to do.
21:43 --> 21:44 [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to take a break.
21:44 --> 21:48 [SPEAKER_02]: When we get back, we'll dive into the actual plots
22:08 --> 22:09 [SPEAKER_02]: We're back.
22:09 --> 22:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, by the way, I just want to address for everybody.
22:11 --> 22:12 [SPEAKER_02]: We've been gone a while.
22:12 --> 22:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I think Marilyn was on the last episode, too.
22:15 --> 22:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I had a lot of personal stuff in my life.
22:18 --> 22:20 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I agree for related things, too.
22:20 --> 22:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And for a while, it was scheduling.
22:24 --> 22:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And then it was, I could not talk about Turin Turin Bar yet.
22:27 --> 22:28 [SPEAKER_02]: So,
22:28 --> 22:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, apologies for the delay.
22:29 --> 22:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I think we're going to be on the nice steady schedule through the end of the soul meridian.
22:33 --> 22:35 [SPEAKER_02]: So we'll we'll try to stick to that once a month deal.
22:36 --> 22:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Maryland's going to be on at least the next one.
22:39 --> 22:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I think a couple more after that too, but I don't think in a row and we'll and Maryland will keep being on podcast.
22:45 --> 22:45 [SPEAKER_02]: So don't worry.
22:45 --> 22:57 [SPEAKER_02]: There'll be plenty of Maryland, but the point is you're going to
22:57 --> 23:00 [SPEAKER_02]: The wife, Horan, and the lady of Dorloman.
23:01 --> 23:08 [SPEAKER_02]: First had Toran, then the Lilith named laughter, named after laughter, the latter who died.
23:08 --> 23:17 [SPEAKER_02]: After Horan was captured in the near-nath Arnoidied, Morwin was pregnant with Niannor, named after mourning.
23:17 --> 23:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Before Niannor was born, Morwin sent eight-year-old Toran to seek refuge with Thengol and
23:27 --> 23:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So, I just want to jump right in here.
23:30 --> 23:33 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a little heavy-handed J.R.R.R.
23:33 --> 23:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Tolkien with a, oh, laughter died and was replaced by morning.
23:38 --> 23:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:39 --> 23:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Little heavy-handed there, guy.
23:41 --> 23:46 [SPEAKER_01]: But also, very common to classical texts and, oh.
23:46 --> 23:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
23:47 --> 23:47 [SPEAKER_01]: That sort of thing.
23:48 --> 23:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we put a lot of thought at the baby name.
23:51 --> 23:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Fred, I've had two kids, put a lot of thought in the baby names.
23:54 --> 23:55 [SPEAKER_02]: You named your child mourning.
23:56 --> 23:57 [SPEAKER_02]: That's not very nice.
23:58 --> 24:01 [SPEAKER_01]: It is more mother-centered than it is child-centered.
24:02 --> 24:05 [SPEAKER_02]: It is true, I think your right pride is big in this family.
24:05 --> 24:20 [SPEAKER_02]: It's very like this is my story for all of them, for all of them, for all of them, for all of them, and for those of you who are, for some reason, tuning in this time, just for the first time, don't forget that Horan was cursed by Morgoth at the end of last chapter.
24:21 --> 24:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Told, hey, you're gonna watch all your kids in family suffer, and you're gonna sit right here and watch from the top of the world.
24:28 --> 24:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Watch with my site.
24:30 --> 24:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is not just human site.
24:32 --> 24:36 [SPEAKER_01]: He can see absolutely every gas at every moment of every hit.
24:36 --> 24:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
24:37 --> 24:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Even the stuff that happens in the pitch dark.
24:39 --> 24:49 [SPEAKER_02]: So, Huren with Godly Sight has to sit for his own pride of not refusing to, you know, play ball a little bit with more stuff.
24:49 --> 24:55 [SPEAKER_02]: He, his family's cursed, more when won't move, because she won't leave her home with Huren.
24:55 --> 25:08 [SPEAKER_02]: You've got her naming her children after grief, like, this is, this is a family, we haven't gotten to tour in personality yet, and we will, this is a family filled with pride.
25:10 --> 25:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, filled with a sense of their place in the world.
25:15 --> 25:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
25:15 --> 25:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And who they are and who they represent.
25:17 --> 25:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Being the Lady of Dorlonan was a really big deal.
25:21 --> 25:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And this just occurred to me.
25:23 --> 25:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder how much of this is due to the fact that not all humans were interacting with elves, but this particular family was.
25:38 --> 25:49 [SPEAKER_01]: which did have some good outcomes, particularly later on for, or maybe I'm picking up a non-picking affair and that one has other good outcomes from that.
25:49 --> 25:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, even if you're not hanging around with us all the time, there is a sense of, oh boy, I had better brush up my toes here to use a hobby expression.
25:58 --> 26:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I had better show the very best possible human behavior I can, which may or may not have been the true astrepresentation of what humans were.
26:11 --> 26:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
26:13 --> 26:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's probably right.
26:13 --> 26:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's a lot of complicated stuff in here that I'm noticing on a reread.
26:20 --> 26:26 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, again, first I just want to say, like, I think curses side, these people seem to reject love and refuse to help themselves, right?
26:26 --> 26:30 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you always hear that, you know, God helps those who help themselves.
26:30 --> 26:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think that's true of the Valar and Eru too, you know, and, you know, she sends her a son off, but she's staying in this occupied territory, right?
26:40 --> 26:45 [SPEAKER_02]: She's refusing to leave her home and perhaps that's not the right decision.
26:45 --> 26:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, keep in mind, she's also the lady of her people.
26:48 --> 26:49 [SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
26:49 --> 26:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And in the absence of the Lord of her people, she feels all more the weight of responsibility.
26:54 --> 26:54 [SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
26:55 --> 26:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And what are the rest of her people supposed to think of she runs away?
26:59 --> 27:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, perhaps she should be leading them.
27:02 --> 27:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Although then they get away.
27:04 --> 27:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's the question.
27:05 --> 27:14 [SPEAKER_01]: At the very least, she is there possibly to ensure that one look from her will make some particularly, um,
27:15 --> 27:17 [SPEAKER_01]: a threatening human.
27:17 --> 27:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember the name of the group that was forced to lodge in the West instead of getting all the luscious lands of the little that they wanted.
27:25 --> 27:27 [SPEAKER_01]: They were forced into the this team out in the area.
27:27 --> 27:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Not the little of this team out there.
27:28 --> 27:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll recall exactly.
27:30 --> 27:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:30 --> 27:31 [SPEAKER_01]: But there she is.
27:31 --> 27:40 [SPEAKER_01]: She's the only bulwark between her people and, you know, the to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-
27:40 --> 27:41 [SPEAKER_02]: are the Easterlings.
27:41 --> 27:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
27:41 --> 27:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Easterlings.
27:42 --> 27:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
27:43 --> 27:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
27:43 --> 27:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to say Easterlings.
27:44 --> 27:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
27:44 --> 27:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
27:45 --> 27:45 [SPEAKER_01]: What's it really?
27:46 --> 27:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm not looking at my next pointed involves the Easterling.
27:48 --> 27:49 [SPEAKER_02]: So this is good.
27:49 --> 27:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there we go.
27:50 --> 27:58 [SPEAKER_02]: The, you know, there's this quote that she was secretly suckered by a kids woman of Horan named Aaron who wrote an Easterling had taken as his wife.
27:58 --> 27:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
27:59 --> 27:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
28:00 --> 28:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And I, I want to point out the power of like women circles here, you know, the, the bond of of women taking care of their families together, aside from politics, like these are two women who, you know, at
28:16 --> 28:19 [SPEAKER_02]: and helping the lady rather than, you know, letting that family wither.
28:20 --> 28:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
28:21 --> 28:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
28:22 --> 28:30 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a good deal of what a Lord owes to their people and what a people owe to their Lord.
28:30 --> 28:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And in the absence of who it is, the Lord, or more likely, more, comfortably from the lady.
28:39 --> 28:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And that has responsibility, as well as...
28:44 --> 28:46 [SPEAKER_02]: more when you get some points back for me.
28:47 --> 28:49 [SPEAKER_02]: But she fears greatly for Torin.
28:49 --> 28:50 [SPEAKER_02]: We got not explicitly here.
28:50 --> 28:52 [SPEAKER_02]: She feared greatly for Torin.
28:53 --> 28:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, fear driving the actions.
28:55 --> 29:00 [SPEAKER_02]: And what a lovely little detail that she sends the Dragon Helm with him, right?
29:01 --> 29:06 [SPEAKER_02]: This Dragon Helm, I mean, dragons in general in this story.
29:07 --> 29:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Lock it.
29:08 --> 29:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Not great.
29:09 --> 29:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Not great.
29:10 --> 29:15 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, look, this is a of generally full spoiler episode of this chapter.
29:15 --> 29:16 [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
29:16 --> 29:21 [SPEAKER_02]: We're talking about the first half, but we will talk about the full chapter here.
29:22 --> 29:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Dragon's going to come into play later, all right.
29:25 --> 29:26 [SPEAKER_01]: As is the Dragon Helm.
29:27 --> 29:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
29:27 --> 29:28 [SPEAKER_01]: What Dragon Helm?
29:29 --> 29:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Quite significantly.
29:30 --> 29:32 [SPEAKER_01]: It's an interesting mix, isn't it?
29:32 --> 29:34 [SPEAKER_01]: On the one hand, she fears for her son.
29:34 --> 29:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Good mother, I'd be afraid for her son too, my son, in the circumstances, because not only is he a boy and therefore, you know, suspect because more likely to, you know,
29:51 --> 29:51 [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
29:51 --> 29:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's such probably the target for a lot more of the nasty treatment that's going on.
29:56 --> 29:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
29:57 --> 29:58 [SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of it's kind of a good reasoning.
29:58 --> 29:59 [SPEAKER_01]: But Hmm.
29:59 --> 30:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Poor Nian or just has to sit there and deal with it as a baby.
30:04 --> 30:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
30:04 --> 30:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
30:05 --> 30:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And try to forget that her name is morning.
30:07 --> 30:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
30:08 --> 30:09 [SPEAKER_01]: That's felt by the you.
30:10 --> 30:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I was just thinking about sunrise.
30:12 --> 30:14 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're talking about grieving.
30:14 --> 30:18 [SPEAKER_02]: For those who listen to the audiobook, it might be a little confusing, right?
30:19 --> 30:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it becomes clear eventually.
30:22 --> 30:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Come here together.
30:23 --> 30:23 [SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
30:24 --> 30:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Laptor in the morning.
30:25 --> 30:26 [SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't sound too bad.
30:27 --> 30:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, certainly.
30:29 --> 30:31 [SPEAKER_02]: So one more thing.
30:31 --> 30:32 [SPEAKER_02]: We see thingles.
30:32 --> 30:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Moode hit was chains towards the houses of the elf friends, right?
30:36 --> 30:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this is my slow collapse.
30:40 --> 30:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Listen, the thingal has been a dick this whole book and now he's like I made one friend I have a managed friend now.
30:49 --> 30:54 [SPEAKER_02]: So now We're all friends now I'm not just a friend, but us.
30:55 --> 30:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm in law.
30:55 --> 30:56 [SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
30:56 --> 30:57 [SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
30:57 --> 31:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Although at that time Yeah, he was born.
31:01 --> 31:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so it would have been already done, right?
31:03 --> 31:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Because he was born and he was born in the year that
31:11 --> 31:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember exactly, but yes, it was, in fact, Barren's achievements and suffering that had softened things.
31:21 --> 31:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Who was born in the year that Barren, Echamian, Erikaamian, I can never say this one.
31:26 --> 31:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Came upon Luthian in the forest of Neldereth.
31:29 --> 31:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I don't know how many years it took them to achieve the silveral, but let's say a few were the eight.
31:35 --> 31:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure it was few were the eight because otherwise why would it
31:40 --> 31:41 [SPEAKER_02]: So let's fast forward nine years.
31:42 --> 31:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Torin has been healing a lot emotionally.
31:44 --> 31:46 [SPEAKER_02]: He's actually been going to his doorift.
31:46 --> 31:48 [SPEAKER_02]: There will be sessions alongside his bestie.
31:48 --> 31:49 [SPEAKER_02]: That'll like strong bow.
31:50 --> 31:55 [SPEAKER_02]: But after a lack of updates from Norloman, he fears for his mother and sister, again, fearing again.
31:55 --> 31:56 [SPEAKER_05]: Hmm.
31:56 --> 32:02 [SPEAKER_02]: He puts on the helm, the dragon helm, and fights on the marches of Doriaath with Beleg.
32:02 --> 32:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Three years later, he returns to Doriaath.
32:04 --> 32:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, if you're keeping track here, he's 18 now.
32:08 --> 32:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, he comes back a wild man, and has his family mocked by the elf Cyros.
32:15 --> 32:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I love how even in Tolkien's writings there's your Mama jokes.
32:21 --> 32:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Your mama's so wild.
32:23 --> 32:25 [SPEAKER_02]: She's an Easterling, yeah.
32:25 --> 32:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think I'm gonna push a little bit here.
32:29 --> 32:30 [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't become a wild man.
32:30 --> 32:31 [SPEAKER_01]: He just looks like that.
32:31 --> 32:32 [SPEAKER_02]: That's fair, that's fair.
32:33 --> 32:35 [SPEAKER_02]: He, he, he, he, he dumps the appearance.
32:36 --> 32:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's because of that appearance that the very shallow elf side of us says, well, if you look like that, do all your women folk run around and make it in the woods.
32:45 --> 32:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Which is your mommy's so wild.
32:47 --> 32:48 [SPEAKER_00]: This.
32:48 --> 32:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it is pretty bad.
32:50 --> 32:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, Torin is then goded into attacking cyros, who then retaliates the next day.
32:58 --> 33:04 [SPEAKER_02]: When Torin gets the upper hand and makes cyros run naked, cyros falls into a chasm and dies.
33:05 --> 33:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Mablung encourages Torin to face the King's judgment but Torin refuses and flees out of fear of captivity.
33:13 --> 33:19 [SPEAKER_02]: There you go.
33:20 --> 33:20 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
33:22 --> 33:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think, again, for people who think that Tauren is a waste of space, we should pay attention to the fact that Tauren is loved by thinker as a son.
33:35 --> 33:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And also love by Billy, who is willing to put his life on the line to rescue this poor kid.
33:41 --> 33:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, 18, I'm sorry, is not an adult brain yet, right?
33:45 --> 33:48 [SPEAKER_02]: It's true, that frontal cortex is not fully fine.
33:48 --> 33:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really understand.
33:48 --> 33:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Although, I don't know, these men, how old, do you have to be to be a adult in tokens first age?
33:55 --> 34:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Because the men of the first age are not living, you know, 60, 70 years, they live in centuries, a lot of them.
34:03 --> 34:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I don't know.
34:03 --> 34:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It may be that Piberty is something of a determinant line.
34:07 --> 34:10 [SPEAKER_01]: That's to be the case in early cultures.
34:10 --> 34:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure Torton is supposed to Piberty changes by now.
34:15 --> 34:24 [SPEAKER_01]: But as we now know, by logically, he still is another seven years to go before you could really say that his judgment is all that great.
34:25 --> 34:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And even Malian,
34:27 --> 34:29 [SPEAKER_01]: loves her, loves Torin.
34:30 --> 34:39 [SPEAKER_01]: She says I would not have any say that Torin was driven forth unjustly into the wild and gladly would I welcome him back for I loved him well.
34:40 --> 34:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Now if a Maya loves you, you gotta be, you gotta have something in you that is very special.
34:47 --> 34:52 [SPEAKER_02]: You heard it here folks if Sauron loves you, you have something special in you.
34:52 --> 34:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's sour and I never loved anyone in this life.
34:55 --> 34:59 [SPEAKER_01]: It was long before even the two trees were born and I'm sorry.
34:59 --> 35:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't give up on any ideas.
35:03 --> 35:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we already saw them try to use some, right?
35:07 --> 35:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, let's put that aside for now.
35:10 --> 35:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And then when a thing all says, you know, I really wish that I could welcome my foster son back, Billig says, I will seek to order it until I find him and I will bring it back to Managrat if I can for I love him also.
35:26 --> 35:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So how can he possibly be a ways to space if he's loved by one of the
35:35 --> 35:40 [SPEAKER_01]: and one of the most beloved and honorable of all else, Felix Strongbow.
35:43 --> 35:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's right.
35:46 --> 35:48 [SPEAKER_02]: I also don't think he's a waste of space.
35:48 --> 35:49 [SPEAKER_02]: I just want to be clear about that.
35:49 --> 35:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Torn makes a tremendous amount of errors.
35:55 --> 35:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure does.
35:56 --> 36:00 [SPEAKER_02]: As do we all, hopefully less murderous than Torn.
36:02 --> 36:04 [SPEAKER_02]: But hey, there's people of all kinds.
36:05 --> 36:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and let us also say we're not going or I'm making our mistakes under a curse of the most powerful deity ever.
36:11 --> 36:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Nor in a warlike society as a trained warrior, there are stakes that he's operating under that most of us don't have to.
36:20 --> 36:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, an occupied territory, which unfortunately many people in the world know who's our operating under, but.
36:26 --> 36:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
36:27 --> 36:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
36:28 --> 36:32 [SPEAKER_01]: We are both blessed to not be at this point.
36:32 --> 36:36 [SPEAKER_02]: But I like this, show me three of your friends deal that you're giving to Torn, you know?
36:37 --> 36:40 [SPEAKER_02]: He's got thing going, he's got Melian, he's got Bellag, that's a pretty good crew.
36:40 --> 36:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I think he's, he's doing all right.
36:43 --> 36:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I would say.
36:43 --> 36:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, think those got a few issues.
36:44 --> 36:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's not give him too much credit, but.
36:47 --> 36:56 [SPEAKER_01]: But the whole point of the issues is if, even thingball thinks he's good, thingball who is quite famous for his low opinion of humans.
36:56 --> 36:57 [SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
36:58 --> 37:00 [SPEAKER_01]: There were many people thought the toward and himself,
37:01 --> 37:13 [SPEAKER_01]: was selfish, because if his appearance, because of his behaviors, because of his skill, all those things, which is not necessarily a recipe for being loving, don't get me wrong.
37:13 --> 37:16 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm being worthy of being loved.
37:16 --> 37:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's bring this guy as you go down a little bit.
37:19 --> 37:19 [SPEAKER_01]: No, okay.
37:19 --> 37:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Torrin joins a group of outlaws.
37:21 --> 37:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Beleg finds them and is treated cruelly by Torrin's companions who fear Beleg be a spy until Torrin sees him.
37:29 --> 37:30 [SPEAKER_02]: The friends make up.
37:30 --> 37:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Beleg tells Torrin of his part in by thingel and Torrin refuses it in the pride of his heart.
37:38 --> 37:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Beleg leaves Torin in friendship and sadness.
37:42 --> 37:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, we have the second name of Torin this chapter.
37:47 --> 37:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Nathan the wrong or Nathan.
37:50 --> 37:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Nathan.
37:51 --> 37:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Nathan.
37:51 --> 37:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Nathan.
37:52 --> 37:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Nathan.
37:54 --> 37:55 [SPEAKER_02]: It's got to be something besides Nathan.
37:55 --> 37:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's just you'll see.
37:56 --> 37:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm coming over the Nathan.
37:58 --> 38:00 [SPEAKER_02]: That feels too colloquial for me.
38:00 --> 38:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Definitely, definitely.
38:02 --> 38:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And wow, was that ever an 18 year old brooding over his wrongs?
38:06 --> 38:07 [SPEAKER_01]: by the world in general.
38:07 --> 38:08 [SPEAKER_02]: I know, I know.
38:09 --> 38:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is my family hits me, I know, I know.
38:13 --> 38:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Sounds like a beetle there.
38:14 --> 38:15 [SPEAKER_02]: That sounds like young Paul McCartney.
38:16 --> 38:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll take your word for it.
38:18 --> 38:25 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know the words of young Paul McCartney, but... Billig, I can't go back to, oh my god, I'm not going to do this.
38:28 --> 38:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I was thinking more along the lines than nobody loves me.
38:30 --> 38:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody hates me.
38:31 --> 38:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to kill Orcs.
38:36 --> 38:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, but here's the thing though.
38:38 --> 38:41 [SPEAKER_02]: It's made clear in this section that Torin is not just killing orcs, right?
38:42 --> 38:42 [SPEAKER_02]: No.
38:42 --> 38:46 [SPEAKER_02]: Torin is killing orc, man or elf.
38:46 --> 38:49 [SPEAKER_02]: And that is what I think tips it into.
38:49 --> 38:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I can be interested in thing all, but I certainly don't think thing, sorry.
38:56 --> 39:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I could be interested in Torin, but I certainly don't think he's like a guy I want to look up to.
39:04 --> 39:13 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm not saying he is, I'm speaking more to the folks who say that he's not worth one's time or consideration.
39:14 --> 39:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, what I like about this part is that Beleg is like, look, I just can't, I can't stay with you, right?
39:21 --> 39:22 [SPEAKER_02]: I have duties to people.
39:22 --> 39:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
39:23 --> 39:24 [SPEAKER_02]: What's the first thing he does?
39:24 --> 39:39 [SPEAKER_02]: He goes back to Doria, goes right up to Thingol and says, can I have your blessing to go find my best friend and your son, your foster son and do Thingol to his credit says, absolutely, take your pick of weapon.
39:39 --> 39:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's, let's get you going, let's get you on the horse.
39:43 --> 39:49 [SPEAKER_02]: he takes with him a belly takes with him on black ale which was a bleed forged by a.l.
39:49 --> 39:53 [SPEAKER_02]: the dark elf if you were called that was the father of Maglin.
39:53 --> 39:56 [SPEAKER_02]: who had a very dark chapter a few chapters ago.
39:56 --> 39:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you were on that one Maryland.
39:57 --> 40:11 [SPEAKER_02]: I think we did that one together, and it's you know anything that this guy makes is going to have some issues Million goes and says there is malice in the sword the dark heart of the Smith still dwells in it.
40:12 --> 40:15 [SPEAKER_02]: It will not love the hand it serves neither will it abide with you long
40:16 --> 40:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, how many pretentious omens can we cramp into why no and Bellic what did you say he's like, I think I'm fine lady Nobody listens to me.
40:28 --> 40:29 [SPEAKER_02]: He goes yeah, lady.
40:29 --> 40:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Just wrap it up and put it in the sack.
40:32 --> 40:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks.
40:33 --> 40:46 [SPEAKER_02]: But she gives him some lembuses to now something that's interesting and and I don't think they make this I mean it's it's clear, but not that clear in the Lord of the Rings books is how special it is
40:46 --> 40:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
40:47 --> 40:48 [SPEAKER_02]: For them to be getting Lembus.
40:49 --> 40:57 [SPEAKER_01]: It is absolutely special, and again, a mark of millions love and favor towards Torin.
40:57 --> 41:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Because she knows if this Lembus is not going to be just for Bayleg.
41:01 --> 41:19 [SPEAKER_02]: According to Share with the Companion, right, and according to the customs of the edalier, um, the keeping and giving of lembus belong to the Queen alone, in nothing did Melion show greater favor to Turing than in this gift, for the Eldar had never before allowed men to use this waybred and seldom did so again.
41:19 --> 41:20 [SPEAKER_02]: So let me get this clear.
41:21 --> 41:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
41:21 --> 41:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Baron, on his trip to recover a Silmaril, was not allowed to eat his mother-in-laws cookies.
41:32 --> 41:39 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think if you're right, there is this like magnetism that Torren has to million and the other people of Doriaff.
41:40 --> 41:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Other than Siders, of course, that guy hates him.
41:45 --> 41:51 [SPEAKER_01]: For me, for harping on the same theme here, but that it wasn't was a full grown man.
41:52 --> 41:59 [SPEAKER_01]: What he stumbled into, Lutheran's orbit and never really came out of it again.
42:00 --> 42:01 [SPEAKER_01]: This is an 18 year old kid.
42:03 --> 42:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going to call it mothering per se, but I really do think that both things and mainly on are feeling their responsibilities as foster parents.
42:13 --> 42:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And that has also got to color their responses towards children.
42:18 --> 42:22 [SPEAKER_01]: But you can still feel responsible without necessarily feeling deep love.
42:22 --> 42:24 [SPEAKER_01]: But they feel that too.
42:25 --> 42:27 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
42:27 --> 42:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So they've seen this kid grow up for, I don't do the math,
42:34 --> 42:35 [SPEAKER_01]: that 10 years.
42:35 --> 42:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for 10 years.
42:37 --> 42:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And after 10 years, they still have very deep affection.
42:41 --> 42:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, that being said, they could have just sent Beleg with regular provisions or said Beleg, you, you take the lambos, but only for you.
42:50 --> 42:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't share with any man.
42:51 --> 42:52 [SPEAKER_02]: This is very important.
42:53 --> 42:53 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
42:53 --> 42:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And she didn't say that.
42:54 --> 42:58 [SPEAKER_02]: She just gave it to him to do what with what he wished.
42:59 --> 43:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the reason my belly did go back and right away say, okay, I need to go on this quest to recover, not my friend and your friend as it were.
43:11 --> 43:15 [SPEAKER_01]: He couldn't do that because it was not within his original remit.
43:16 --> 43:20 [SPEAKER_01]: His original myth was go find your foster son and bring him back.
43:21 --> 43:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So he couldn't go and stay out for five years or whatever, because he, I think after having seen Twitter the first time knew this was going to be a little longer than what they might have expected.
43:31 --> 43:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So he did have to go back to his overlord and say, look, I want to make this a longer absence from Doriath.
43:40 --> 43:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And do I have your permission to do that?
43:42 --> 43:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
43:43 --> 43:44 [SPEAKER_01]: So it makes perfect sense to me.
43:44 --> 43:50 [SPEAKER_02]: It makes sense to me to it's clearly talking, trying to paint Beleg as this kind of he's the best of both worlds, right?
43:50 --> 43:52 [SPEAKER_02]: He's got the love and he's got the duty.
43:53 --> 44:04 [SPEAKER_02]: He comes back, he makes sure and by the way, on his way out, he's going to slay a bunch of orcs and then once things are looking good for the elves, he's like, all right, you guys, you got this now, I'm going to go off and find my friends.
44:05 --> 44:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, right, right.
44:07 --> 44:09 [SPEAKER_01]: to care the tasks.
44:09 --> 44:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Now can I go off and do these other things?
44:12 --> 44:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
44:12 --> 44:14 [SPEAKER_02]: He's just got a nice curse sword.
44:14 --> 44:15 [SPEAKER_02]: He's ready to go.
44:15 --> 44:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe curses the wrong word, but black him, let's say.
44:19 --> 44:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Blackened with the dark heart of a dark elf.
44:22 --> 44:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I would call it a malicious sword.
44:25 --> 44:28 [SPEAKER_02]: There you go, malice is a good way to put it in.
44:28 --> 44:29 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very takenny and worth too.
44:30 --> 44:39 [SPEAKER_02]: It is and also interesting that here prior to the second he's prior to the fortune and the ring is we have a Smith pouring in malice.
44:39 --> 44:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
44:40 --> 44:48 [SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly what I was thinking of because it came into my mind about someone poured into the ring his cruelty and his loss.
44:48 --> 44:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
44:49 --> 44:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And just his essence, right?
44:50 --> 44:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Like this is the essence of ale is going into the weapon.
44:53 --> 44:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
44:54 --> 44:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would not care to have ale on my side for any of that.
44:57 --> 44:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, just make that perfectly clear.
44:59 --> 45:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't care what how good a fighter is or a swordsmith for that matter.
45:03 --> 45:04 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
45:05 --> 45:06 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, let's move on.
45:06 --> 45:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Torin and the atlas find the dwarf meme.
45:10 --> 45:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Is that how you pronounce it?
45:11 --> 45:15 [SPEAKER_02]: There's such a weird symbol on top of the eye.
45:16 --> 45:24 [SPEAKER_02]: They find the dwarf meme, who is from a dwindling group of petty dwarves, who were the original to what delvers.
45:24 --> 45:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, I can't.
45:26 --> 45:28 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of vowels happening right now.
45:28 --> 45:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Who were the...
45:30 --> 45:39 [SPEAKER_02]: who are the original delvers of Nargothron, meme leads them to his cave as ransom, but finds his son dead by Torin's arrow.
45:39 --> 45:48 [SPEAKER_02]: There in Bar and Dundwood, the house of ransom, Torin promises meme a gold ransom for his son.
45:48 --> 45:54 [SPEAKER_02]: This is a sad scene, oh just overall, like, I mean, meme obviously is not like
45:54 --> 46:15 [SPEAKER_02]: the greatest guy in the world for a lot of reasons in this chapter, but you know, when he loses a son, and I think it's fascinating that even though Torin is the one who shot the arrow that killed me and son, me is actually fine with Torin, the rest of this time, basically.
46:17 --> 46:20 [SPEAKER_02]: At least through the end of the portion that we're reading today.
46:20 --> 46:28 [SPEAKER_02]: He actually later pleads with the Orcs not to kill Turin, although you could argue that that's because he still owes me a ransom.
46:28 --> 46:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, again, considering this in the context of Norse mythology, Ziggard, the dragon slayer mentioned above, was the foster son of Mima.
46:40 --> 46:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Similar to me, the dwarf who claimed to be raising him out of pity was actually raising him at the hope of eventually acquiring wealth through him.
46:49 --> 46:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And specifically, the Dragon Horde that is eager to eventually obtain from killing the Dragon Faulkner.
46:58 --> 47:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So an awful lot of the way to Norse mythology is falling on this whole conception of Mima and the Petty Dwarfs.
47:04 --> 47:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'd love to know more about Tolkien's creative process and why the Petty Dwarfs came into existence in the first place.
47:13 --> 47:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Because they're so unlike the game-link kind of dwarfs
47:20 --> 47:27 [SPEAKER_01]: But the whole backstory that we have, you know, they were banished in the ancient days, and they were hunted by the elves.
47:28 --> 47:38 [SPEAKER_01]: After they had to leave the dwarfs that he's in the east, and in Belaudiand, they kept having to hide in caves and things.
47:38 --> 47:48 [SPEAKER_01]: They were still good Smithcraftres, but because they were hated and hunted in all of those things, they hid.
47:48 --> 47:54 [SPEAKER_01]: they hit as much as they could, and we're quite secretive, but also here's your favorite word for this.
47:54 --> 47:55 [SPEAKER_01]: John, quite fearful.
47:56 --> 47:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
47:57 --> 48:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But, I think part of the reason why Mehmed or Mehmed is so protective of Torin, I'm going to read this quote here, then Mehmed grows and looked long at Torin.
48:13 --> 48:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I air you, he said, you speak like a dwarf lord of old and let that I marvel.
48:20 --> 48:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Now my heart is cooled, though it is not glad.
48:25 --> 48:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And in this house you made well if you will, or I will pay my ransom.
48:31 --> 48:41 [SPEAKER_01]: So remember, originally, meme had odor ransom to Turdon, for being captured, but then Turdon
48:42 --> 48:43 [SPEAKER_01]: for the killing of his son.
48:43 --> 48:49 [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, it's, you know, why did they just say, okay, we had some candles, we had some shake hands, and you know, let's be buzzer, whatever.
48:49 --> 48:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't know if those two things were equal, that's why.
48:52 --> 48:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, fair point, fair point.
48:55 --> 48:57 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think toolman really impressed me, Emma.
48:57 --> 48:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So yet again.
49:00 --> 49:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he can be an upstanding dude when, when, when, when move to do so.
49:05 --> 49:19 [SPEAKER_02]: This is the most unbelievable part of the chapter for me, though, that Torin just had such a smooth way about him that he's like, well, you killed my son and I'm not happy about it, but all of that ends well and, you know, all's well that ends well.
49:19 --> 49:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So, sorry, is that, is that what Meme is saying because you said he really worked toward and is being so smooth?
49:25 --> 49:39 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm saying, I'm saying that meme is willing to overlook, I mean, maybe not overlooked, but forgive, and respect Torin, even though he killed a son, because Torin spoke so smoothly to him, right?
49:39 --> 49:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Smoking like a door for order of all.
49:41 --> 49:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I believe that any words could have quelled him at that point.
49:46 --> 49:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
49:47 --> 49:51 [SPEAKER_01]: But I do think that Torin was speaking generally out of his reverse.
49:52 --> 49:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he was, I don't think he was playing, you know, I don't know.
49:57 --> 49:58 [SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
49:58 --> 49:59 [SPEAKER_01]: We're arguing for his life, or anything like that.
49:59 --> 50:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think he was genuinely remorseful and recognized that a debt was owed and said I'm going to pay it.
50:06 --> 50:11 [SPEAKER_02]: But there is no debt that can repay the killing of a human being.
50:11 --> 50:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we don't think that, I don't think that, but in those days, there was such a thing as wear gale.
50:18 --> 50:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
50:21 --> 50:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, we're going to have a great reputation.
50:24 --> 50:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Look at how Jew is ill-dore, but it was there.
50:30 --> 50:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, quite common in the Norse mythology.
50:33 --> 50:36 [SPEAKER_01]: It had the benefit of stopping endless blood feud.
50:38 --> 50:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, though, how well that works, dependent a lot upon how hot blood was of the people involved.
50:44 --> 50:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, the North, the ancient North notably famous for their peace.
50:49 --> 50:51 [SPEAKER_01]: They're peaceful approaches to death.
50:51 --> 50:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, not so much.
50:53 --> 50:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
50:55 --> 50:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they had to be so hot blood because they lived in such a cold climate.
50:59 --> 51:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So I wanted to keep warm in the winter, I don't know.
51:03 --> 51:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And I speak as a fan, so I recognize the effects that living in a cold climate can have on the culture.
51:10 --> 51:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But the fans had a little differently.
51:12 --> 51:16 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll have you know, the 23 in me said I was 2% Swedish.
51:16 --> 51:20 [SPEAKER_02]: So, all right, on that note, we are going to take a break.
51:20 --> 51:22 [SPEAKER_02]: It will be back to fitness chapter.
51:44 --> 51:44 [SPEAKER_02]: We're back.
51:44 --> 51:46 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's get through the rest of the story, Marilyn.
51:46 --> 51:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's do it.
51:48 --> 51:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Bellig, again, finds Torrin, who remains unwilling to go to Dorith.
51:53 --> 51:56 [SPEAKER_02]: This time, Bellig stays and heals the hardened sick members of his crew.
51:57 --> 51:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Meem is not happy to have an elf in his house.
52:00 --> 52:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Torrin re-enters the fight against Borgoth, wearing his dragon helm, and putting fear into the hearts of Orcs.
52:08 --> 52:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Bellig and Torrin become the bow and the helm and join the MCU.
52:14 --> 52:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And what does Jordan do?
52:18 --> 52:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Torn gets another name.
52:21 --> 52:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Worth all the dread help.
52:23 --> 52:25 [SPEAKER_02]: This guy loves the title card.
52:29 --> 52:29 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I'm saying.
52:29 --> 52:31 [SPEAKER_02]: He belongs in the MCU.
52:31 --> 52:33 [SPEAKER_02]: He's just, he's got names for days.
52:34 --> 52:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he is a hero.
52:38 --> 52:49 [SPEAKER_01]: He is absolutely a hero and that's what the MCU, you know, tries to be full of and even as they turn to anti-heroes, they are still, you know, heroes in that sense.
52:49 --> 52:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And if having multiple names is one of the whole marks of a hero, well, there you go.
52:54 --> 53:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And it is kind of actually, you know, getting multiple, I can't remember what the term is for when we have, they're not nicknames.
53:01 --> 53:02 [SPEAKER_05]: Alternatives?
53:02 --> 53:08 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, the multiple naming of someone, I think, even the more epithets,
53:09 --> 53:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Epithets, thank you, that's the worth.
53:10 --> 53:16 [SPEAKER_01]: The more I put that's you have, the greater your fame is reflected throughout the world, right?
53:16 --> 53:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Because if you're Simon Nobody, then it's going to give you an epithet of the fence Simon Nobody, or even Nye, then the wrong.
53:24 --> 53:28 [SPEAKER_02]: But can you imagine the business card budget at this guy's house?
53:28 --> 53:34 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you can't keep changing your name that much guy.
53:34 --> 53:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he just has multiple stacks for each name.
53:38 --> 53:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Hands up, whichever one he feels is appropriate to the customer that he's handing it to.
53:42 --> 53:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, damn, oh, that's my gorthal cards.
53:44 --> 53:46 [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I meant to give you my tour in card.
53:48 --> 53:53 [SPEAKER_01]: My tour in my guard, my Victor over faked, but we haven't got to that point yet, every.
53:54 --> 53:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Man, this guy is, he has a pension for drama.
53:58 --> 53:59 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll say that.
54:01 --> 54:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he lives in dramatic times, does he not?
54:04 --> 54:05 [SPEAKER_02]: He does.
54:05 --> 54:06 [SPEAKER_02]: He does.
54:06 --> 54:11 [SPEAKER_02]: But you point out here that Bella gets actually the point who encourages him in part of us.
54:12 --> 54:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It is.
54:12 --> 54:13 [SPEAKER_01]: He is.
54:14 --> 54:17 [SPEAKER_01]: He brings toward the dragon helm, which is his birth right.
54:18 --> 54:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's be clear, but it is also the very thing that leads to more to God's learning toward his location due to their success in battles against the works.
54:26 --> 54:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So again, again, the worst aspect of Morgoth is his ability to turn good things to
54:35 --> 54:39 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is his inheritance from his father.
54:39 --> 54:40 [SPEAKER_01]: This is his family pride.
54:41 --> 54:43 [SPEAKER_01]: They're again, that word pride, but still.
54:43 --> 54:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're gonna live a life of, you know, defending the world against works and such having a really good hell, it's a really good thing to have.
54:52 --> 55:03 [SPEAKER_01]: But because Mordgoth, it turns out to be the thing that finally leads to his own discovery of where
55:03 --> 55:05 [SPEAKER_01]: equivalents.
55:05 --> 55:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So I didn't even read.
55:06 --> 55:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Has located itself.
55:08 --> 55:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
55:11 --> 55:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we're at war again.
55:15 --> 55:16 [SPEAKER_02]: The Orcs find meme.
55:17 --> 55:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Bedore fleeds them to Torrin as ransom while he leaves them to his cave.
55:21 --> 55:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Torrin just happens to be there.
55:24 --> 55:26 [SPEAKER_02]: But but he requests Torrin not be harmed.
55:27 --> 55:30 [SPEAKER_02]: The Orcs kill all
55:30 --> 55:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Mean finds Beleg wounded, and tries to finish him off, but Beleg awakens and scares off mean.
55:38 --> 55:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Beleg has north toward Eggman and an in pursuit of Toren.
55:44 --> 55:47 [SPEAKER_02]: He finds Gwindor, nearly broken from hard labor under Morgoth.
55:49 --> 55:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And, may I say, Gwindor was now a butabent and fearful shadow of his former shape and mood.
55:58 --> 56:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, this is Mordagov's act, if you will, Morkov's story.
56:06 --> 56:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And Mordagov, if nothing else inspires for you.
56:11 --> 56:11 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
56:11 --> 56:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Again and again and again.
56:12 --> 56:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
56:14 --> 56:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't think that I would feel particularly valiant if I had spent however many years it's been, you know, laboring in the darkness as a thrall to Mordagov.
56:25 --> 56:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
56:27 --> 56:27 [UNKNOWN]: Right.
56:27 --> 56:28 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's interesting.
56:28 --> 56:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if there was a point where, you know, we have parts of the stories in the summer, and I know that this is something that Tolkien struggled with, where elves would get kidnapped and come back as spies or a corrupted, or perhaps made it to orcs at some point.
56:46 --> 56:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder why Gwendor doesn't have that fate.
56:50 --> 56:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And my Gwendor is it just a lack of time?
56:52 --> 56:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Is it a different era for Morgoth?
56:56 --> 56:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Is he not transforming these elves anymore?
56:58 --> 57:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Why Gwendor?
57:01 --> 57:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Why is he being?
57:02 --> 57:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I think he is one of many who, after certain point, Morgoth realizes he doesn't have to corrupt them to the point of being spies anymore.
57:14 --> 57:22 [SPEAKER_01]: because their own kin will drive them out if they return because they're afraid that they're spies.
57:24 --> 57:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So once again, we'll have to accomplish the full effect with a quarter of the amount of effort because people are afraid.
57:32 --> 57:37 [SPEAKER_02]: He is utilitarian and thank you for making my point for me that this is all about fear.
57:38 --> 57:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep, yep, yep, yep.
57:40 --> 57:44 [SPEAKER_01]: No doubt about it.
57:44 --> 57:47 [SPEAKER_02]: and Windor, we know, was in the near near our noidead.
57:48 --> 57:51 [SPEAKER_02]: He was one of, I think he was the only one who came from Nardatron, was he not?
57:52 --> 57:53 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the very few.
57:54 --> 57:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, one of the ones he's the one who's brother was Hector Pieces in front of him.
57:58 --> 58:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what led the charge.
58:00 --> 58:02 [SPEAKER_02]: You can fact check us, folks.
58:02 --> 58:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Please, that was somebody else, that was that, maybe that was the, he came to them, else.
58:08 --> 58:09 [SPEAKER_01]: So.
58:10 --> 58:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, yeah, I'm obviously getting confused.
58:13 --> 58:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I do.
58:14 --> 58:14 [SPEAKER_02]: You might be right.
58:14 --> 58:15 [SPEAKER_02]: I just don't recall it.
58:15 --> 58:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I know that there were two brothers and one of them have been taken prisoner and then got brought out in Hector pieces in front of the whole army as some means of drawing a major force out of their very strong position in the mouth.
58:32 --> 58:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Thence came only a small company following windowson of gweeland, a very valiant prince, and against the will of Oradrath, he went to the northern war because he grieved for the loss of Gilmier, his brother in the dagger of Bragalac.
58:46 --> 58:46 [SPEAKER_02]: So there you go.
58:46 --> 58:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that was that is the right person.
58:50 --> 58:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, maybe not.
58:51 --> 58:55 [SPEAKER_02]: But it would be the dagger of Bragalac that he was killed in front of.
58:55 --> 58:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the whole point was he was captured rather than he killed.
58:57 --> 59:00 [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, I'm sorry, I don't read this album.
59:00 --> 59:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't want to make it to keep up with him.
59:03 --> 59:08 [SPEAKER_02]: So either, me either, we've been dealing with a lot of other covered in life stuff.
59:08 --> 59:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So all right, listeners, be gentle when you write into us and tell us exactly what it was on that issue.
59:14 --> 59:15 [SPEAKER_02]: But be harsh on everything.
59:15 --> 59:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, speed.
59:18 --> 59:23 [SPEAKER_01]: As a teacher, I know harshness is not a good tool for education.
59:23 --> 59:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, don't tell Toren because he's going to be harsh with everyone, including himself.
59:27 --> 59:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Bellag and Gwendo are fined Toren in the Orcamp.
59:31 --> 59:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Bellag cuts his mons with Anglical, but accidentally prick Toren's foot.
59:38 --> 59:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Toren awakens in a panic.
59:40 --> 59:45 [SPEAKER_02]: and kills Belegg with sword, thinking him an enemy.
59:45 --> 59:47 [SPEAKER_02]: There is a great thunder from the west.
59:48 --> 59:53 [SPEAKER_02]: The Orcs go into chaos, and they believe Torrin has escaped in the confusion, and they leave.
59:54 --> 59:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Torrin and Gwendor are very Belegg with his bow, but keep Anglakel.
59:59 --> 01:00:04 [SPEAKER_05]: Bad idea, bad idea, bad idea, bad idea.
01:00:04 --> 01:00:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Gwendoor tells him his identity and of the rumors of a curse that Morgoth has placed upon Horan and his family.
01:00:13 --> 01:00:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Gwendoor and Torin are found by the Nagarthron scouts at our taken prisoner into the city.
01:00:19 --> 01:00:19 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:00:19 --> 01:00:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And that is where we're going to leave the plot today, but we have more a little bit more discussion.
01:00:24 --> 01:00:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, they're taking prisoner into the city.
01:00:26 --> 01:00:27 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not welcomed.
01:00:27 --> 01:00:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Window is not welcomed as a lost comrade who was returned out of all, baptism, beyond all hope.
01:00:36 --> 01:00:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Because they're free, he'll be a spot.
01:00:40 --> 01:00:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, as you've put there, then he was a russian to a certain wakefulness of rage and fear.
01:00:46 --> 01:00:48 [SPEAKER_01]: The rage, all the greater, I think, because of the fear.
01:00:49 --> 01:00:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
01:00:50 --> 01:01:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Thus ended Beleg Strongbow, truest difference, greatest in skill of all that harvard in the woods of Belaudi and in the elder days, at the hand of him whom he most loved, and that grief was graven on the face of Torin and never faded.
01:01:10 --> 01:01:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not as though Torin kind of recovers
01:01:19 --> 01:01:22 [SPEAKER_01]: and I can feel compassion in him.
01:01:23 --> 01:01:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And Bella could have just roused him away for a little bit first before cutting.
01:01:27 --> 01:01:29 [SPEAKER_01]: You might have been a good idea.
01:01:29 --> 01:01:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Might have been, you know, you're in the middle of an enemy camp.
01:01:32 --> 01:01:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe before you bring out a blade, you say, hey, buddy, buddy.
01:01:37 --> 01:01:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:01:38 --> 01:01:42 [SPEAKER_05]: Bella, let's just, I'm gonna cut your arms just to see that I had a minute.
01:01:42 --> 01:01:42 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
01:01:43 --> 01:01:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And then later on, when Turin looks at Gwendorins' who are you and Gwendorse's, a wandering elf, a thrall escaped, whom Beleg met and comforted, said Gwendor.
01:01:55 --> 01:02:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yet, once I was, Gwendor's son of William, a lord of Nagarstront, until I went to the Niernoids that annoyed you at, and was slaved in onward.
01:02:12 --> 01:02:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I have not seen him, said Gwendor, but rumour of him runs through Angbad, that he still defies Morgoth.
01:02:20 --> 01:02:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And Morgoth has laid a curse upon him and all his kin, that I do believe, said Gwendor.
01:02:31 --> 01:02:37 [SPEAKER_01]: The hero knows that he is cursed yet he still keeps on going, hoping to defy the evil.
01:02:38 --> 01:02:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, this is right out of Greek, your hero's story is classic Greek tales.
01:02:47 --> 01:02:51 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the way I read it, I'll be honest with you, is that Torrid internalizes that curse.
01:02:52 --> 01:02:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And he's kind of like, this is the cause of all my problems.
01:02:57 --> 01:03:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't believe him, the curse is a way that Torin can avoid some accountability, right?
01:03:04 --> 01:03:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Like it's the curse never made him go off and throw a cup of cyros or make him strip or even I mean, I don't know if you can make someone strip in self-defense.
01:03:17 --> 01:03:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if it works like that.
01:03:19 --> 01:03:24 [SPEAKER_02]: I think the thing goal was stretching the Nuri at legal codes a little bit here.
01:03:25 --> 01:03:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I know what he made him and again, he was shown grace at all these moments.
01:03:30 --> 01:03:32 [SPEAKER_02]: He made choices to not accept that grace.
01:03:33 --> 01:03:33 [SPEAKER_01]: He did.
01:03:33 --> 01:03:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, he made choices to go off and, you know, he could have gone to any other Elvis City probably and been accepted.
01:03:39 --> 01:03:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe not in Harga Throner or, um, Gondolin, but, uh, he could have gone back to his mother and Dorlonon.
01:03:45 --> 01:03:50 [SPEAKER_02]: He could have gone to many other places besides B.
01:03:50 --> 01:03:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Abandoned of outlaws that are killing indiscriminately.
01:03:55 --> 01:04:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and maybe at this point he feels he doesn't deserve any better company.
01:04:01 --> 01:04:04 [SPEAKER_02]: But you see how that side steps the accountability, right?
01:04:04 --> 01:04:05 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I'm trying to say.
01:04:05 --> 01:04:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, we're talking about free woe versus faith here, John, and whole shelves for the book.
01:04:11 --> 01:04:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So print, print, not just an adult in context, but in, you know, throughout the course of human history.
01:04:17 --> 01:04:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
01:04:18 --> 01:04:23 [SPEAKER_01]: About how much free will do we have and how much are we faded for certain things?
01:04:23 --> 01:04:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And in this context, in this narrative style,
01:04:28 --> 01:04:34 [SPEAKER_01]: We need to remember that the curse of a God is a thing, and we'll have an effect.
01:04:35 --> 01:04:41 [SPEAKER_01]: You could argue that it was the curse of Morgoth that made sure that toward a never-really stopped and thought about his choices.
01:04:42 --> 01:04:43 [SPEAKER_02]: It could be.
01:04:43 --> 01:04:50 [SPEAKER_01]: That every choice he made was a bad choice, and the ones that weren't bad choices were made bad by other things.
01:04:50 --> 01:04:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
01:04:51 --> 01:05:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not taking particular sides here, but I am seeing as I can multiple aspects of this and coming back to Tolkien's own life.
01:05:05 --> 01:05:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, this is still to my mind, something of a late teenage mindset of whatever I do, it's gonna go badly.
01:05:14 --> 01:05:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I can see where that comes from.
01:05:18 --> 01:05:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Given his own experiences in his life thus far, given Tolkien's own experiences in his life.
01:05:24 --> 01:05:30 [SPEAKER_01]: At the time, he was so enamored of his story that he was just completely drawn into it now.
01:05:30 --> 01:05:42 [SPEAKER_01]: He was enamored of the gourd of a story, which there's no god involved, all, standing over the soul
01:05:43 --> 01:05:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Although there may be something about the two brothers feuding in the that settled this off.
01:05:48 --> 01:05:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd have to go back and double check back, but in essence, all of the potential churcittonists was landed on Gordovo himself because he was raised badly.
01:06:00 --> 01:06:05 [SPEAKER_01]: He was rocked so hard in the cradle that it fell over and you know, possible brain trauma there kind of thing.
01:06:07 --> 01:06:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
01:06:07 --> 01:06:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, I...
01:06:09 --> 01:06:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Here's what I'm saying.
01:06:11 --> 01:06:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not doubting that the curse of Morgoth is a tangible thing, because he is a deity in this world.
01:06:17 --> 01:06:24 [SPEAKER_02]: He is a level of power above the mortals, above the children of the Loubitar.
01:06:25 --> 01:06:28 [SPEAKER_02]: At the same time, he's not the only game in town.
01:06:29 --> 01:06:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And I do like to think that one week, we already see that the presence of million and of thingel who has been sort of modified a little bit,
01:06:40 --> 01:06:43 [SPEAKER_02]: led to him healing for a large part of his childhood, right?
01:06:43 --> 01:06:46 [SPEAKER_02]: He did better while he was in Doryev.
01:06:48 --> 01:07:03 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that he had he tried to remain there, had he tried to do better for them and not just for himself, not just, you know, go off and be his own independent person and reject the love that would offer to him.
01:07:04 --> 01:07:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Other forces would have worked within him as well, besides the curse.
01:07:10 --> 01:07:27 [SPEAKER_02]: At the same time, I was going to make an additional point of, you know, that old, that all the allegory, right, you know, religious men is in a flood, he was on the top of the building.
01:07:27 --> 01:07:30 [SPEAKER_02]: He, you know, somebody comes to drive me out of town.
01:07:30 --> 01:07:31 [SPEAKER_02]: He says, no God will save me.
01:07:31 --> 01:07:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Somebody comes to pick them up at a boat.
01:07:33 --> 01:07:33 [SPEAKER_02]: No God will save me.
01:07:33 --> 01:07:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Helicopter comes.
01:07:34 --> 01:07:35 [SPEAKER_02]: No God will save me.
01:07:35 --> 01:07:37 [SPEAKER_02]: He gets to the afterlife.
01:07:37 --> 01:07:38 [SPEAKER_02]: He says, God, why didn't you save me?
01:07:39 --> 01:07:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I sent you three people to save you, right?
01:07:41 --> 01:07:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
01:07:41 --> 01:07:42 [SPEAKER_02]: How many times are you doing here?
01:07:42 --> 01:07:44 [SPEAKER_02]: How many times is Bellic Strongbow?
01:07:44 --> 01:07:46 [SPEAKER_02]: Have to come and say, you are pardoned.
01:07:47 --> 01:07:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Come home.
01:07:48 --> 01:08:16 [SPEAKER_02]: before that's the hand of a Louis Vuitton that's the hand of man way that's the hand of million just telling you to come home and so I don't I reject the the solely fate portion of this share there has to be a free will component to this and I absolutely absolutely you know the
01:08:16 --> 01:08:22 [SPEAKER_02]: being the way that Eluvitar exercises as well, the tripping of gallum, right?
01:08:22 --> 01:08:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Being the way that Eluvitar perhaps expresses his will and making sure that Sauron is de-powered the same way that maybe Eluvitar would have made the wind be at Torren's back as he rode back to Doriav.
01:08:38 --> 01:08:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's another factor at work here that another person mentioned yet, and that is shame.
01:08:44 --> 01:08:47 [SPEAKER_01]: The flip side of Pride is shame.
01:08:47 --> 01:08:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I think maybe part of the reason why Jordan went off to join the outlaws as he thought, well, I'm no better than that law, I'd better go and join him.
01:08:58 --> 01:09:06 [SPEAKER_01]: But it was because he was ashamed to go back to Manayan and think of who had treated him so well.
01:09:08 --> 01:09:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And it meant that he had done a wrong thing.
01:09:13 --> 01:09:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And even after being told that he was pardoned, I think then the pride comes in.
01:09:22 --> 01:09:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, oh, it was so terrible what I knew that I can't possibly go back, you know.
01:09:28 --> 01:09:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe there were other things operating.
01:09:29 --> 01:09:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe servers had friends.
01:09:31 --> 01:09:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
01:09:31 --> 01:09:36 [SPEAKER_01]: But I do think, again, maybe I'm perfecting on this too much.
01:09:36 --> 01:09:37 [SPEAKER_01]: But you know,
01:09:39 --> 01:09:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Young brain recognizing how, you know, I'm sure he was in awe of being left with the elves and a Maya, although I don't know many people know that she's in Maya, anyway.
01:09:52 --> 01:09:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Being left with, you know, some really souped up elves.
01:09:58 --> 01:10:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And knowing that he's a human, yes, he is one who is known and one who is the son of a very famous human.
01:10:08 --> 01:10:30 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a lot to live up to, and so you do your best to be the best, and then you do one thing that's out of emotion, out of anger in the moment, and suddenly you're no longer perfect, and so, okay, if I can't be perfect, I'll just be horrible, another possibility.
01:10:30 --> 01:10:31 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I think that's part of it.
01:10:31 --> 01:10:36 [SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of people have a sunk cost fallacy and reverse, right?
01:10:36 --> 01:10:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
01:10:37 --> 01:10:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm already, I'm already bad.
01:10:39 --> 01:10:40 [SPEAKER_02]: My name is Will Be The Worst.
01:10:41 --> 01:10:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
01:10:42 --> 01:10:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Good Bunny, after bad.
01:10:43 --> 01:10:48 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I've watched The Lorax, you know, how bad can I be kind of thing.
01:10:48 --> 01:10:49 [SPEAKER_02]: I already chopped down one tree.
01:10:49 --> 01:10:50 [SPEAKER_02]: What if I chopped down them all?
01:10:51 --> 01:10:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
01:10:52 --> 01:10:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to make light of it, but I think that's a really good point.
01:10:58 --> 01:11:01 [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of people feel lost after they've gone a little bit astray.
01:11:02 --> 01:11:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It's an awful lot harder to accept forgiveness than it is to forgive someone.
01:11:09 --> 01:11:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I think in many ways, in many circumstances.
01:11:15 --> 01:11:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not saying it was a good choice.
01:11:17 --> 01:11:18 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm not saying it.
01:11:18 --> 01:11:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying that children made good choices by and large.
01:11:23 --> 01:11:26 [SPEAKER_01]: He made some good ones and he made a heck of a lot of really bad ones.
01:11:27 --> 01:11:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And, of course, a part in implies it's not that he was found not guilty in thingles court.
01:11:32 --> 01:11:45 [SPEAKER_02]: It was guilty, and I forgive you anyway out of my, it's it's saying I am gracious as thing all, for giving you, rather than saying that acquitting you.
01:11:45 --> 01:11:45 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not going to quit all.
01:11:46 --> 01:11:54 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a forgiveness for a crime, and yeah, I think that maybe maybe had, uh,
01:11:55 --> 01:11:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe if Baron came and said, thing goal has cleared you on all charges.
01:11:59 --> 01:12:00 [SPEAKER_02]: You were, you were not guilty.
01:12:00 --> 01:12:01 [SPEAKER_02]: You were justified.
01:12:01 --> 01:12:02 [SPEAKER_02]: That would have been one thing.
01:12:03 --> 01:12:04 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a little different one.
01:12:04 --> 01:12:05 [SPEAKER_02]: It is different, isn't it?
01:12:06 --> 01:12:08 [SPEAKER_02]: But also, I don't think he was justified.
01:12:08 --> 01:12:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that would have been correct.
01:12:11 --> 01:12:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that thing will actually pardon him was the only way he could have avoided accountability there.
01:12:19 --> 01:12:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:12:20 --> 01:12:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Stripping someone naked and chasing them through the woods.
01:12:25 --> 01:12:26 [SPEAKER_01]: pretty intentional acts.
01:12:27 --> 01:12:33 [SPEAKER_01]: It's one thing to say he threw the cup at side of us and accidentally did more damage than he intended.
01:12:33 --> 01:12:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Or it's one thing to say, yeah, that and then he came out of him in the woods.
01:12:38 --> 01:12:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I knocked him out.
01:12:39 --> 01:12:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I restrained him, I knocked him out, something like that.
01:12:41 --> 01:12:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Here he is, please keep my way for me next time.
01:12:44 --> 01:12:51 [SPEAKER_02]: But to humiliate him like that, that was an
01:12:52 --> 01:13:02 [SPEAKER_01]: is part of the calculation here, or that the method that addition, the calculus, and Jordan's choices.
01:13:03 --> 01:13:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess after Cyrus said all those things about his mom, he couldn't face everybody again.
01:13:08 --> 01:13:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that could be part of it, too.
01:13:10 --> 01:13:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I, you were supposed to laugh at that and then I was going to close that.
01:13:14 --> 01:13:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I know you were, I know you were, as soon as I said those things are the, oh, I've been one of you.
01:13:19 --> 01:13:20 [SPEAKER_02]: That's okay.
01:13:20 --> 01:13:21 [SPEAKER_02]: That's okay.
01:13:21 --> 01:13:22 [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
01:13:22 --> 01:13:26 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll have some more of your mama jokes on the next episode of some real story.
01:13:26 --> 01:13:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe you will, John.
01:13:29 --> 01:13:30 [SPEAKER_02]: No, Mary.
01:13:30 --> 01:13:31 [SPEAKER_00]: My best.
01:13:31 --> 01:13:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I expect you to come prepared with a thesis on your mama jokes.
01:13:39 --> 01:13:42 [SPEAKER_00]: No, sorry, I already done too many thesis.
01:13:42 --> 01:13:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I have a lot of this stuff I need to do for classes I'm taking.
01:13:47 --> 01:13:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Fair enough.
01:13:48 --> 01:13:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you're here listening to some really stories with our favorite Tolkien scholar, Marilyn Arpukila.
01:13:54 --> 01:14:01 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to record the outro by myself when I decide when this is coming out because I wanted to be accurate as to what we're covering at the time.
01:14:01 --> 01:14:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Marilyn, thank you for being with me today.
01:14:05 --> 01:14:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, John, always a delight.
01:14:06 --> 01:14:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I love talking
01:14:09 --> 01:14:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you all for listening.
01:14:10 --> 01:14:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and thank you for joining us next month, where we'll be finishing up the chapter and Marilyn will be back to do that.
01:14:17 --> 01:14:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Woohoo, can't wait.
01:14:19 --> 01:14:21 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll see you all then, and I'll see you in the outro.
01:14:21 --> 01:14:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Good night, everybody.
01:14:22 --> 01:14:26 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just me for the outro tonight, but don't worry, we have plenty of stuff coming on the lower-hounds network.
01:14:26 --> 01:14:29 [SPEAKER_02]: On the main feed, Alicia is going strong on her Oscar's coverage.
01:14:29 --> 01:14:33 [SPEAKER_02]: She's going through all the top picture nominees.
01:14:33 --> 01:14:34 [SPEAKER_02]: If that's what it's called, I don't watch movies.
01:14:34 --> 01:14:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody knows that along with a lot of other categories, like shorts and music and all these crazy things that I had no idea even more in there.
01:14:43 --> 01:14:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Then, you'll also have the wrap-up of our Knight of the Seven Kingdoms coverage on the main feed.
01:14:48 --> 01:14:55 [SPEAKER_02]: That's me, David, and Alicia, all three of us, the triarchy reunited for the last episode of the season.
01:14:56 --> 01:14:59 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's just dropped yesterday, so you should have that right in your feeds.
01:14:59 --> 01:15:20 [SPEAKER_02]: uh... if you want to get the season wrap up you'll have to subscribe to properly howard movie review uh... where you can catch the last episode of the night of the seven kingdoms that we're gonna have for coverage and they're newly wed season is gonna start up and they'll start a new batch of movies where they're gonna review that's Stephen Anthony they have a great time it's really fun over there uh... then
01:15:21 --> 01:15:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Aside from that, we have our pit coverage weekly on the main lower-hounds feed.
01:15:25 --> 01:15:32 [SPEAKER_02]: So check that out if you're into medical dramas or not, because honestly, I feel like this is a show that's for everybody, even if you're into this genre or not.
01:15:33 --> 01:15:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And on radioactive ramlings, they just wrapped up fallout.
01:15:36 --> 01:15:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm working with the fallout guys to start out some Brandon Sanders and Cosmere coverage of stay tuned for more details on that.
01:15:42 --> 01:15:49 [SPEAKER_02]: I know a lot of book readers are on this feed, so that is probably up your alley if you're into epic fantasy.
01:15:49 --> 01:15:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Then we have never mind the music doing weekly covers of music and psychology.
01:15:54 --> 01:15:57 [SPEAKER_02]: They just put out an episode on Motown Filly.
01:15:58 --> 01:16:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Very cool stuff, so don't miss an episode of that.
01:16:01 --> 01:16:05 [SPEAKER_02]: There every week they are so reliable for your Tuesday morning fix.
01:16:06 --> 01:16:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, everybody.
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01:17:06 --> 01:17:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks everyone, and we'll see you next month with more Maryland on Touring Touring Bar Part 2.