Star Wars - Episode IV: A New Hope

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[00:02:24] Welcome to the Star Wars Film Festival, where the Lorehounds are guides to a galaxy far, far away. I'm David, and I haven't heard that theme music in a minute. No, you haven't. I'm John, and this is our coverage of the 1977 film Star Wars, also known as Episode 4, A New Hope. In this podcast, we're going to break down the plot, themes, and impact of the movie before answering some listener feedback.

[00:02:49] We are covering all of the major Star Wars movies in story order. Next up will be Episode 5, The Empire Strikes Back. So be sure to send us in your thoughts and feedback about A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, and or any and or, and or, and or, other Star Wars meta issues. You can send feedback to starwarsatthelorehounds.com, or visit us at our website and use the contact form or voicemail feature.

[00:03:17] And of course, you are invited to join us on our Discord. Links for everything are in the show notes. I want to say about feedback. We were gone a longer time than we thought we were going to be on this series. I checked for feedback. I am sure that I missed something. I couldn't find anything, and I feel like there was something that I missed. So if I missed it, please feel free to forward to us. We'll read it on the next podcast. Yeah, for sure. Apologies for that.

[00:03:45] Since we're reactivating this film festival. The goal is to go back to monthly on this now, now that we're back, which I'm telling you now, David. Understood. Because, you know, we don't have anything else going on in our podcasting lives. That's right. That's why it's a goal. Lastly, if you want to support us directly, check the link tree in the show notes for links to Supercast and Patreon, where you can get early and ad-free access to our podcasts, as well as bonus episodes.

[00:04:11] I wish we had an audio clip of Milchick saying, it's been a minute. Welcome back. I could add it in post. You could add it in post. Here you go. We did it. All right. So, everyone, we've been gone. And if you've missed this series before, if you're new to the Lorehounds or you've joined us in a series within the last year that we've been putting off doing this series, we started in 2023 sometime watching all of the Star Wars movies and orders.

[00:04:41] We've done the full prequel trilogy. We did Solo and we did Rogue One. And we were like, all right, let's record A New Hope. And then something always got in the way. So, we're back. This is supposed to be a fun series. It's supposed to be a very fun series where we kind of go through our Star Wars histories, talk about what we loved about the movies, talk a little bit about the production, but mostly just go back and forth on like, what does this movie mean for the Star Wars universe?

[00:05:08] So, David, can you just remind everybody what's your Star Wars story? Sure. I saw this movie when it came out in theaters when I was a child. I think we saw it a little bit later into the summer. We were on a family road trip and we went to the theater.

[00:05:28] And I only have got a couple of snapshots in my head, but one little video clip in my mind is some guy in the audience as we were all filing out of the theater and it was really crowded. And he lets out this huge Wookie bellow. And we were all, everybody in the crowd was like, oh my God, that was amazing.

[00:05:47] And then thereafter, you know, it was lines around the block and all of the toys and the comic books and, you know, Star Wars was just everywhere and everything for us. I had a buddy of mine who had all the action figures and the Death Star, PlayStation and everything, you know, and we would trade action figures at school, my little R2D2-1 and stuff.

[00:06:13] And so it was very much fundamental to my growing up. And then of course, the following two movies and then from there, the long break and then obviously the prequels. And then I watched that first prequel and I didn't understand what I was watching. And then I kind of gave up on it until, oh, when did I get back into Star Wars?

[00:06:38] I guess what I got back into Star Wars when we started covering stuff and like, you know, in a more focused way. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, then Andor happened and that just changed everything. You were like, Star Wars is back, baby. It was back with, I cannot wait to cover it for this season two. It's coming. It's coming up fast. Every time I'm like, it's far away. It's just like a couple of weeks away. Right.

[00:07:07] So very exciting. I've never read any of the Star Wars novels. I've never read any of the expanded universe comics or books or anything like that. So I don't really have a wide lore. I'm just a baby, you know, a child of 77. So I'm a generic fan. So I'm not a Star Wars, deep into the Star Wars canon as say Alicia is, or even you are, because you've read a bunch of the books, I think. I'm about halfway between you and Alicia. Okay, gotcha.

[00:07:37] I have a, I would say like a sophisticated basic fan knowledge. You know what I mean? Yeah. I've watched the full Clone Wars. I've watched Rebels. And I've read a bunch of the books, but mostly in the High Republic era. So that doesn't really connect to this. I have read the original Thrawn book, which I want to finish a trilogy of that.

[00:07:58] You know, I basically dipped my toe in into different expanded universes, but I'm not like fully into like the old Republic lore of everything, you know? Right. Like Alicia would be. Alicia could, like I feel like I am with Tolkien. She can spout off a bunch of lore on anything in Star Wars, which is crazy and very impressive. Which Star Wars to me, it's almost more impressive because it's such a complicated canon where it was created by so many different heads.

[00:08:27] So many different minds created this thing. And it's just such a wide universe. Whereas Tolkien is one guy's head. Like if he could fit it in his head, I could fit it in mine shortly, right? Right. Anyway. But yeah, I am a child of the prequel trilogy. My father showed me the original trilogy before I saw the prequels, but I was very little and I didn't totally get it. I actually had this movie on a little bit today in front of my kids and my two-year-old was going, Dad, look!

[00:08:55] Every time like Darth Vader came on or something like that. Nice. It was very funny. He doesn't like get it. It's just funny. He got that it was supposed to be dramatic. My daughter's been watching some like PBS kids and stuff on her little iPad. And so she'll sit on her spot on the couch. So the other day, it was coming up on our TV time. I was already occupying part of the couch and I was waiting for the Super Bowl to come on. And so I was like, oh, Dune, right? Because it's to be like, you know, sign up for free. You know, it's the whole Fox thing.

[00:09:25] Get them onto their platform. So there was Dune. The first Dune movie was sitting there. I was like, oh, okay. I'll just put it on. I'll get half an hour to wait or something. So she's coming in. She's getting settled in for her little TV time. And then she's like, what is this? I said, oh, well, it's this science fiction book, you know, and it's been adapted a couple of times. This is one of the adaptations. She's like, isn't this the desert planet one? I'm like, yeah. With the big worms? With the spice stuff, right?

[00:09:54] And I was just like, inside. I was doing the, oh. You have to be real casual about it, though. Yes, exactly. But I was like, okay, my trick is working. She's, you know, osmotically picking up all of this stuff. That's funny. Yeah. That's funny. Yeah. You got to be real subtle about it. You can't pretend to like it too much. Or make them sit down and make them watch it. Right, right. So I'll be watching some Star Trek, you know, some Deep Space Nine or whatever because I'm one of those other free ad, you know, TV channels.

[00:10:22] And she'll just, she'll come in and out or she'll pick up on it or what have you. So I'm working on her. Well, I have Dune thoughts today, and I'm sure you do too. About? About this movie? Oh. Actually, funny enough, I didn't have too many Dune-related thoughts relative to 77. Really? Because I think it has to do with the fact that I am, I was trying to thread this line of, okay, this is a nostalgia film for me.

[00:10:52] This is a hard, hard nostalgia film for me. But at the same time, let me try to pull myself out of that and be not objective, but a little less subjective, right? A little critical. Yeah, a little bit. And it didn't really, the Dune stuff never really hit me. And Obi-Wan straight up uses the voice. I don't care. That is true. It's so true. It's so true. So, okay. Well, what are we talking about here? Are we into our overall impressions?

[00:11:22] Yeah. Give me your hot take, your hottest take you can imagine. This movie is a hot mess in some ways. There's a lot of disjointed storytelling, but I think it, you know, as the kids say, it runs on vibes. Yeah. There's, there, it's, it's such a straightforward hero's journey, you know, the call to action and all of that kind of stuff.

[00:11:47] There is a whole bunch of, okay, so we watched a version and I think we're going to talk about this a little bit later, but I didn't really like the version we watched. Like, I don't think that's, that stuff added. So I just want to put a pin in that. I'm sorry. Which version do you not like as much? The one that we watched that has all the. Just now? Yeah. Okay. I watched your copy. The special, that's the special edition. That's the one that George Lucas has updated, which is the only one you can get legally now.

[00:12:17] Right. Exactly. Yeah. So the. Beyond that, like it's a bunch of unknown actors that it, it, it, it sort of hand waves a whole bunch of plot points. It's the idea that they're going to jump down a garbage compactor and not have a bunch of troops shooting down at them or something, you know, it's just like, or, you know, there's a bunch of. Like, where did they go?

[00:12:47] Oh, they're in this garbage chute. Okay. Well, let's put some in at the front tour or something like that. Like, there's a whole bunch of just really ridiculous stuff. At the same time. It's just a good ride. It's just a good romp. Right. Right. You're just like, okay, farm boy, call to adventure, call to action. Did I call it call to action before? Call to adventure, uh, saves the, you know, saves the day, uh, the lovable rapscallion.

[00:13:12] I mean, there's so many just, uh, bedrock, uh, uh, trope things that come from this movie that this movie brought together and then just gave back to us with a really hot, you know, really fast paced action. Like the, the story moves, it, it hits its beats and it's fine. It's, it's an okay movie. Yeah. You know?

[00:13:39] And it's, it's just so, I think it was the iconic nature of the visuals of the time and the music. For sure. Right. That really sold this thing. And, and yeah, maybe if it came out today, it wouldn't land as well, but, and you do have to judge something in its time a little bit because star Wars paved the ground for so many things today. Like as much as Dune influenced the story and locations of star Wars, I don't think you get a Villeneuve Dune today without star Wars in 1977.

[00:14:08] And, and it's okay for these things to borrow from each other and even steal from each other. Great artists steal, right? Good artists borrow great artists steal. That's the, that's the, uh, motto I always heard. Right. And because they give back to each other. And so the way that star Wars revolutionized this visual effects, uh, style, this, this grand. And it was robbing from 2001 as well. Yeah. You know, there's lots of stuff. Yeah.

[00:14:35] But the way that it made it sort of a blockbuster thing and made it, I really think that the thing that it did more than technologically advanced things was popularize the genre enough for people to throw money at it. Mm-hmm. And that may be one of its most lasting impacts. Right. But then you look at this movie and you're right, it is a mess. And I love it so much, even though it is a mess. But that's why every time I see somebody like complain about the acolyte or, or the Mandalorian or something like that and say like, well, the plot was a little messy here.

[00:15:04] I'm like, dude, that's just star Wars. Like, what are you, what are you even talking about? Make star people go like star Wars used to be better. I'm like, no, it wasn't. Star Wars was always this goofy. Right. So go with it. Have fun guys. It's okay. I think that's an important point too. Cause when you get into, um, Empire strikes, not Empire, um, when Return of the Jedi with the Ewoks and stuff, it's just, it's like, oh, this is, this is just wild and ridiculous.

[00:15:33] Not that I, you know, not that I don't enjoy a bunch of parts of that storytelling. And it's only Empire that's really very, very, very dour, very serious and a little bit more takes itself a little bit more seriously in a different way, but that's a different director. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, I, I agree.

[00:15:53] And I think it's a good thing that I'll keep in my mind watching stuff going forward is like, eh, you know, enjoy, enjoy the, you know, enjoy it for what it is. Don't, don't take it too seriously. And or is obviously a different thing because they're approaching it differently and they have a different, um, uh, there's a different filmmaker involved, a different storyteller involved. And so they're bringing that right. So yeah, I guess that just means that we're, there's a wide latitude. Yeah.

[00:16:23] And I, I can never remember who said this first, but star Wars is a universe, not a genre, right? Like we can have so many different kinds of stories. Star Trek does this. Yeah. Right. They've got, you know, so they've got a couple of different sort of, you know, and star Wars does do it. Do they just do it? Well, I don't know if that's the question. Cause we had the clone wars and all of the, that animated stuff. So I love the clone wars. I will stand the clone wars all day.

[00:16:49] It is some of the best storytelling in star Wars and you should all go watch it. It's also some of the worst storytelling in star Wars. So, um, but that's just look, I am a sucker for that kind of thing. There's star Wars, right? Yeah. And I'm also a sucker for that kind of thing. Like I'll watch doctor who all day and that's some of the best and worst sci-fi out there. I'm sure star Trek has the same thing at certain points. You're like, man, that was a bum episode, but the next one's so good. Right. Yeah. That's just the nature of the beast. That's, that's just being a sci-fi fan.

[00:17:15] And I think that it, that brings up a good point because when you look at something, uh, that is a constructed and crafted episode where, you know, whether, uh, or a season. And something that has a lot of intentionality behind it and constructed that way. That's really hard to do. It takes a lot of effort.

[00:17:40] And oftentimes then that, that season or show will end after, you know, so many C seasons, right? That show will end after a particular period of time with star Wars and star Trek. Like doctor who even the, the world is the universe is constantly expanding in the story world. And so as it's stretching out more writers and people are involved in it and you're going to get all kinds of different things. I think that's okay. I think that's in a big IP universe like this.

[00:18:08] I think I like the idea that it's this big, big, big space. And then within that big space, there can be a variance of, of the stories, the quality of the storytelling and the different types of storytelling. Right. That also needs to be allowed. You could even listen to Alicia. And I talk about the doctor who Christmas special. I talk about how the writer who wrote that forgot what he wrote like two seasons before. And, and I'm just saying like, this is just, this is the price of admission. Right. For good sci-fi. Right.

[00:18:38] Is that you got to deal with the crap too. Right. You're going to get a bum episode here and there. I feel like we're, we're going broader on this than we need to. So why don't we zero in? Well, it's a point. It's, we are. And it's a point that 77 changed, was so pivotal in, in, in the genre and in blockbusters. Right. Right. 77 was a big year too, like Jaws and a bunch of other stuff. I should look up the Wikipedia. People were busy. It's also the year that my father graduated high school. So it was a big year for him.

[00:19:08] Indeed it was. He was a big Star Wars fan. So he was having a great year. When else? Um, let's talk about the production a little bit because I, I, there is so much to go through on the production and I just don't think we're going to do it justice to do like a deep dive here because there are so many documentaries on how this thing was made that go way deeper. But I just want to point out some funny facts. I learned some fun facts. Uh, you know, he went through like at least four screenplays, George Lucas. I'm going to get added.

[00:19:37] Jaws did not, was not done in 77. So, Oh, what year was it? Uh, I, you know, I don't know, but it wasn't 77 jaws jaws film 75. Oh wow. So predated it. Yeah. But anyway, so you've got, you've got all these like name changes. At one point you had Anakin Starkiller being the protagonist, Luke Starkiller was going to be his name. Oh, and Skywalker is such a cooler name. I mean, much cooler. What, what a cool name.

[00:20:08] How does this guy think of this stuff? And like you mentioned before, David, they, he liked to cast unknown actors. And I think this is an art that has been lost a little bit that I would like to come back because as I, I mentioned on our second breakfast last month for subscribers only if you want to get in the link tree. Um, as I mentioned in our second breakfast last month, I think Dune should have been a nobody cast. Yeah. I think that, that needed to have no big names on it.

[00:20:33] Maybe you cast like Jessica as a big name, like Rebecca Ferguson was fine, but, but the main characters, you know, Paul and Chani needed to be blank. Young unknown. Yeah. All in your news. Yep. And, uh, we've, we've lost this art and I think we need to get back to it. That's what, uh, that's what, uh, Lynch did with 84 as he found Kyle McLaughlin, who was a stage actor. I will say, uh, one of the best picture, uh, noms this year, Anora has a lot of unknown

[00:21:02] actors and man is a banger. Okay. That's cool. So yeah. More, more of an Amelia Perez fan. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I just started listening to Alicia's breaky breakdown of the controversy. Yes. So I have to listen to that. That'll be fun. Yeah. I just watched it the other day and, uh, yeah, I, I, I don't know. I, I, I'm, I'm outside of the understanding of what the controversy is. And so I've watched the film now and now I'm going to, I want to pick up what, what, what's

[00:21:30] going on in the, in the cultural conversation. It's a lot. It's a lot. By the way, where, yeah, Alicia is doing a big spread on, uh, Oscar coverage. So check out those podcasts. So this podcast is an advertisement for all the other podcasts that we're doing. So I, I was going through just like random articles and whatnot. And I read this thing about Alec Guinness apparently really hated Obi-Wan and he really did not want to play this character anymore. And he was like, George, can you please kill me off in this movie?

[00:22:00] Oh, interesting. Which is kind of funny because he has to be a force ghost in the other movies. So he's like, sure, I'll kill you off. The, that happened with Charlton Heston in the planet of the apes care, uh, his character. He wanted to be killed off. And so, yeah, they, they, and they engineered that as well. So. And then the visual effects, like we mentioned how great they were like Lucas created ILM just to do this because he, the, the studio's visual effects department was falling apart.

[00:22:29] So he said, Oh, let's just make our own wild to me. And that like had such an impact on the industry. We did a big coverage for star Trek, the motion picture last year for the 45th anniversary. And that movie couldn't have been made without what ILM did and, you know, how you use, uh, camera

[00:22:54] motion control to track, uh, models and then composite these shots. And it's, uh, they really did revolutionize what's possible in filmmaking. And I don't think, yeah, like the, it, it cracked open the, the sci-fi genre and, you know, from, from alien to, uh, star Wars, all of this is possible because of, of going out and creating a whole new industry.

[00:23:23] And it's crazy that they still are like the top of the game. Like they, if you need amazing visual effects, you still go to ILM. And they've spawned a whole, yeah. And then now there's even sub companies from sub subcontractors of subcontractors to, you know, it's, it's like building a car these days. It's like, you got to ship parts from like three different countries to, and then send them back and forth again. It's wild. So same with, uh, with special effects. The sound, I almost wanted to bring up the sound as a joke because you will get so mad

[00:23:53] at the cartoons for using the sound effects from 77. I'm like, but it's the same ship. And you're like, I don't like it. This will be our eternal debate. Because they just, it's incessant and nonstop. They're on some planet somewhere climbing up something. And then there's like sounds from the Death Star. It's just like, what's going on? I love it. I love it. Give me all the space lasers you have. And then quickly where they filmed it, Tunisia, Guatemala, and Death Valley National Park in California.

[00:24:23] I didn't realize it was Guatemala, but that makes sense. I guess I never knew that fact. It's a Tunisia thing I knew. Yeah. It looks very Tunisia. Yeah. I guess the Guatemala for the, uh, the rebel base. Right. Yeah. I think that's right. Yeah. Well, that's all the short production stuff I wanted to do. Again, at least you would be mad at me because I didn't go too deep on the production. I, because again, like, I just don't know what we could say. That's not just a regurgitation. Yeah, exactly.

[00:24:51] All the amazing documentaries out there. So I'd like to just give our hot takes on the plot and whatnot. So why don't we take a quick break? When we get back, we will do so. Hey, Mark, I was listening to Paramore the other day, and it really made me think about the amygdala and the limbic system. You just made those words up, didn't you? What? Paramore?

[00:25:19] We're the Nevermind the Music Podcast, where one musician and one psychologist talk songwriting and the mind one song at a time. We'll hear everything from Green Day and Outcast to Stevie Wonder and Dua Lipa. And we mostly try to stay on topic. Except for when we don't want to. Nevermind the music, wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:25:50] And we're back. I've got a summary here for you, David. Hit me with it. Do you want to read it? Sure, I can do that. Luke Skywalker, a water farmer on the remote planet of Tatooine, is whisked on an adventure by Obi-Wan Kenobi. He learns he's the son of one of the greatest Jedi of all time, Anakin Skywalker. Over the course of the movie, Luke develops his abilities with the Force.

[00:26:15] The duo and their droids hire smuggler Han Solo to take them to the Death Star and rescue Princess Leia. However, the evil Darth Vader destroys Leia's home planet of Alderaan before they can save her. Before they can... Yes, yeah. Obi-Wan dies in a lightsaber duel with Vader, but returns as a part of the Force. Meanwhile, the rest of the team joins up with the Rebels on Yavin 4.

[00:26:40] With the Death Star approaching quickly, Luke uses his stolen planes to fly above the Death Star's weak spot and detonate it. Luke Han, Leia, C-3PO, and R2-D2 are celebrated as heroes. Now, David, we had a debate last time of whether Rogue One broke this movie. Right. I think it plays better with Rogue One in my head. This idea that it was an intentional weak spot, I think, takes away some of the hand

[00:27:10] waviness around this movie. Right. I have to laugh at the fact that the plans go from a big, chunky hard drive to a floppy disc to a little laser disc that goes inside the droid. So I think it's pretty funny. Yeah. I think for me, it's not for me so much. I'm fine with Rogue One and that part of the storytelling.

[00:27:36] But I've heard other people argue this, which is part of what Lucas was working with from a story element, was spirituality over technology in a way. And that if there is this, you know, I don't know how to frame the argument. I've just heard the argument and I'm doing a bad job of representing this. Yeah.

[00:28:02] Is if you have this technological element to the destruction of the Death Star, is that the same message? Yeah. And my pushback to that would be, now that I've made the argument myself, my pushback to that would be, I think that there are two aspects of heroism in Star Wars. There is this mystic hero, but there's also this populist message of we can rise up against our overlords that the rebels are.

[00:28:32] And if you just have Luke Skywalker, I think that's a hollow victory. If you have Luke Skywalker with all of these nameless, faceless heroes underneath that we happen to see because of the side movie that gets made, now that is the people's victory. This is the people liberating themselves instead of being saved by Luke Skywalker, this guy right out of Tatooine. And as I'm thinking about it too, isn't it, what's the Tolkien term? Spivimi?

[00:29:02] Spivimi? Shall prove but mine instrument. Yes. So, in a way, this idea that the force is moving, the force moved Galen Erso to be in that position, the force moved to, you know, get Jyn and Cassian and like, so all of these things, and it was a heroic effort by a lot of people.

[00:29:26] And I think you're right in the sense that it's a collective victory as opposed to an individual, an individualist victory when we connect it with Andor. Yeah. I mean, with Rogue One, with Rogue One. Oh, and Andor, yeah. Yeah. I think it's all part of it. The same thing in the Clone Wars, same thing in Rebels. Like, I think this expansion of like how many people it took to pull off the Rebel Alliance, I think that's a good thing. I think that's honestly like one of the better things we've done in Star Wars in recent years.

[00:29:56] Right. I like it. Everybody had a hand. It's not just Luke with his stupid laser sword. And, yeah, he still had to hit the shot, right? He still had to let go of technology and, you know, go and use the force literally to hit the target. Right.

[00:30:14] That the target was, you know, it was, whether it was built into the Death Star as a weak spot or, hey, our, you know, our Star Wars chat GPT of the era, you know, analyzed the plans and figured out this weak spot. Mm-hmm.

[00:31:04] The first objective and then when we get to that one, we'll figure it out the next one. Yeah. And then we'll figure out the next one and we'll figure out the next one.

[00:31:11] And without that effort that everyone is giving their all at every moment and getting things moving forward one tiny step at a time, it shows us what in the face of a faceless enemy as the empire, you know, what can be achieved. Right.

[00:31:40] And, well, like you kind of alluded to, it's a one in a million chance that Luke will hit the shot anyway. Mm-hmm. Right. And you know what they say at Discworld is that one in a million shots always go through, but it has to be exactly one in a million. If it's one in 999,000, you're going to miss it. You're probably going to miss it. But if it's one in a million, you're golden. Well, we're talking about Luke, so we're talking about that particular aspect of it. Should we talk about Luke a little bit more? I would love to talk about Luke. Please.

[00:32:10] What is your overall opinion on Luke? I feel like it's going to be a nuanced one. I was going into Tashi Station to pick up some power converters. He does a credible – I think Mark Hamill obviously does a great job, you know, whininess notwithstanding.

[00:32:36] The fact that he shows up at Obi-Wan's, you know, after they get jumped, and then Obi-Wan's like, oh, here, here's a lightsaber, let's go. You know, it's just – it's pretty radical, the fact that – You'd be despondent in real life, right? Like, you just watched your family die. Right. You were knocked out by the sand people. It's wild. That whole thing is just, like, insane.

[00:33:03] And that's where, on one level, the movie's a mess, but on the other hand, it's just like, oh, it just goes. It's just like, oh, yeah, here's your father's lightsaber, let's go. Right, right. He goes, huh? And then this whole arc of Luke through the movies, man, it's – well, I don't know how much we're not really talking about the future ones. I think we can – look, let's talk full Star Wars spoilers. There's – this is not the Star Wars canon timeline podcast. Right, right.

[00:33:31] This is supposed to be sort of a celebration of the movies in their own context. You know, it's – I don't have an issue with a human, you know, a person, a mortal person, you know, whether they're force-unabled or not, struggling with the fact that they have, you know, how many people – what's the estimated death toll on the Star Wars – on the Death Star? Like – That's a lot.

[00:34:01] It was a lot. Death Star. I think somebody did the math, right? So he did the math, yeah. Deaths. Around 1.9 million. Yeah, there you go. That he, you know, was the fulcrum of the universe for a while, and that's going to take its toll on you in some ways.

[00:34:24] And so at some point, his needing to step away from things, I like that element of the story because he goes from this innocent farm boy, and the reality is, is when you are fighting an intergalactic war, it's going to – the moral harms are going to be as traumatic as the physical harms. Yeah.

[00:34:51] So I – speaking of just the original trilogy, because I want to start there. Just the original trilogy. Right. I mean, the first and second movie because, my God, is he so much better in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. Right, right. He just has so much more of a seriousness to him. Mm-hmm. That – and part of that is the character going through development, right?

[00:35:16] Like, part of that is the character has had to do this terrible thing to save the universe and – or the galaxy, at least. He's had to watch all his friends and family die, and he's been through a lot. But, man, does he just have so much more of a gravitas in the second and third movies? Yeah, I don't want to really litigate the sequel trilogy right now because that has a lot of complicated feelings for everybody. We'll get there.

[00:35:41] But in this movie, I mean, Luke is – he's kind of very vanilla, right? Like, the exciting parts are happening around Luke. They're not happening with Luke most of the time. Right, right. I think. They're happening to Luke, I should say. Mm-hmm. He's being handed a lightsaber. He's not taking one. Mm-hmm. He finally makes that change at the end of the movie when he lets go and he fires that shot. That is his pivotal moment where he becomes someone with his own agency, I think. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:36:12] As before, he's just a – he's being swept along by the events. Yeah, he's a passenger along for the ride. Interesting. Interesting. Never thought of him that way. And who's driving the train but Obi-Wan Kenobi? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which is kind of funny.

[00:36:38] Like, Darth Maul comes to hunt him down on Tatooine in Rebels. Right. There's like a whole subplot there. There's, you know, the whole Obi-Wan series where he's – I guess that's 10 years before this at least. But yeah, it's just funny that he – it's like, I've not heard that name in a while. It's been two weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little weird knowing that he was placed there to keep an eye on Luke.

[00:37:07] And then he's sort of like – in the original movie, right, obviously, which wasn't taking a lot of that into account. He's just like, oh, hey, Luke. Oh, yeah. Here's your dad's lightsaber. Let's go. You know, it's not like he's there looking after him and he's up on the cliff like watching them all the time. Right. So it's pretty funny to connect those other stories into this knowing that this movie didn't plan for that specifically.

[00:37:37] Yeah. And I mean, there's so much that this movie didn't plan for. Like my understanding is that Lucas's plan at this point was that Anakin and Vader were two different people. Right. Right. They weren't father and son. No, I'm saying Anakin and Vader were just not – Anakin and Vader, yeah, you're right. Yeah, yeah. Not the same person. Right, right. So like Anakin was killed by Darth Vader. And Obi-Wan is very clear about that, right? He's not – Right. He's not making – They're later like, Grandpa lied. Yeah. Grandpa Ben lied.

[00:38:07] And also, why the name Ben? It just feels so – I mean, I guess it makes sense among like Owen and Luke and everybody. Like it's a little bit more like an Americanized, Anglicized name compared to the rest of this universe. But it's very interesting that they got there. When he – I will say like I still got chills when he goes, hello there. Like I'm like, oh, he did the thing. Yeah. He did the thing. You know, on this most recent rewatch. The way he's just instantly wise. Alec Guinness has such a presence.

[00:38:37] Yeah, yeah. But he was the perfect person to play that role as well. He's like – there's an inner steel, but then there's a soft grandfatherly exterior to him at the same time. But you know what I think is fascinating is that I don't think George Lucas wanted a character – an actor like him at first. He wanted to cast like a samurai actor, like a samurai movie actor. Oh, interesting. Like a Mifumi or something. Yeah, actually, David, I'm looking at the Wikipedia article now.

[00:39:03] Japanese actor Toshiro Mifumi was the one he wanted from the Kurosawa films. Yep, yep. And his daughter said no. Her father had a lot of samurai pride and didn't want either Obi-Wan or Vader because he thought Star Wars would be like cheapening. It would be cheapening the samurai look of him. Right. Interesting.

[00:39:25] Well, I think the grandfatherly nature of Alec Guinness endears us to him more because Mifumi's a very serious and stone-faced man. Yeah. As well as his characters were that way. And Guinness is somebody we can really bond with so that when the duel does happen and he does turn off his lightsaber and lets go and Vader strikes him down,

[00:39:56] we really feel it. We're like, wait, no. Like, wait, what? Like, that's, you know, that's our guy. And really Alec Guinness is going, Lucas, just let him kill me. I'm out. I'm out. George, please. One of the scenes, and I think I mentioned this on a podcast much earlier on in the Star Wars Film Festival thing,

[00:40:20] was the lines that get dropped when Luke is at his house and they're watching the playback of Princess Leia. And she says, General Kenobi, and you fought with my father in the Clone Wars. Or whatever the line is. Wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I think there's something in that. And also, well, later we won't talk about Clone Wars too. Yeah. Yeah, she mentions Clone Wars.

[00:40:45] And as, you know, on subsequent watches as kids, we're like, wait, what? General? Wait, what? Clone Wars? Like, the fact that just with this introduction of this one character, that this whole universe goes, expands by, you know, leaps and magically expands with just those two phrases, general and clone wars. You're like, whoa. And that's great, you know, that's great storytelling.

[00:41:15] You can say a word. It's the textual ruins, right? That's what people say about Tolkien is you look everywhere, you turn over a rock and there's like the ruins of an ancient civilization. You even get that in Dune. I'm reading a lot of Dune lately. That's why I'm going to bring it up. It's funny, I was going to give myself a three-week break while I waited for my library hold to come off and then I just got the notification that it's ready. Wait, you're going, you just, did you finish God Emperor? I finished God Emperor, so I'm going right into Heretics. Now shit gets weird. You say that every time I finish one of these books. Do you know that? I do.

[00:41:45] You said that the last three books I finished. Has it gotten weird? Am I right? It's been weird. Yeah. Okay. It's great. It's great. All right. Anyway, my point is like just mentioning like the Balerian Jihad, right? Like all these things where like you just briefly mention them. And then you're like, wait, what, Jihad? Yeah, exactly. And that's great. That's really great storytelling. And I think that that often separates what makes a world interesting or not is are you going to explain it all to me or are you going to let me wonder for a bit?

[00:42:13] I also, from my understanding of Legends, and I haven't read these books, but from my understanding of Legends is that prior to the prequel trilogy, the Legends authors and the comics authors were doing like a secret invasion kind of Clone Wars, where like all the Jedi were getting replaced with clones. And like that was the original idea of the Clone Wars. And then George Lucas goes, nah, throw all that out. I'm going to do my own thing. We're going to do like a Jedi general thing.

[00:42:40] And it was, I think it's better, but I'm a prequel defender. Okay. Gotcha. Can't help myself. Well, and again, that goes to the power of this story is that we're in media res, as they say, right? We're just dropped into it and we got to figure our way. And so I, and this gets into part of my criticism about this particular version of the movie, but we'll get there.

[00:43:10] The fact that we just had to figure out what was going on. Wait, empire? Wait, rebellion? Wait, what's going on? Princess? That then the storytelling takes us through that and we understand it as the plot moves forward, as opposed to, you know, Johnny Exposition coming in and, you know, giving us the info dump. Right. So again, good storytelling. When was the last time you watched Return of the Jedi, David? David.

[00:43:38] Oh, is there a, not in a while, not in a long while. There's a big update in that one. Okay. We'll get it. We'll get, we'll get there. Okay. Okay. I was like, does he know what they did at the end of Return of the Jedi? No, I don't remember. Oh God. All right. All right. Let's not spoil it. Let's let you experience that disappointment. In a minute. Yeah. I'm trying to have to watch ahead, right? I want to stay fresh with podcasts. Princess Leia Organa. Yes. Is she his sister? Is she not? We don't know in this movie, but they're kissing.

[00:44:08] Yeah. You know, again, not planned for like, we gotta, we gotta take it for, for what it is. The, you know, she was such great comic effect for this movie to like get this walking carpet out of my way and her just brusque attitude and everything like that. So there's a perfect foil for her and Solo and, and the triangle. And it literally happens in a moment. Right. Yeah.

[00:44:36] They're literally, you know, the three of them don't come together until they're in the hallway getting shot at and they're, they've got to figure out their characters. And so just that velocity of these three big personalities, well, plus four, you know, plus one, you know, Chewbacca is, is so great. And she, if she doesn't have those sharp edges, then I think this movie loses a lot of its

[00:45:05] energy and its velocity. Yeah. And I think Carrie Fisher bringing that sort of princess of Hollywood attitude, you know, she's Hollywood royalty, you know, bringing that with her, I think with her small stature, but with that big ego, I think it works perfectly. And I think without her, this would have been a different film. I don't know that it was as, would have been as successful. She is one of the most underrated actresses of all time.

[00:45:34] I think underrated comedy actresses and even dramatic. I think she is so funny. She is so unique. And she brings such a, so like you say, like this agency to the character that I think it needed. And I don't even think it's in the writing necessarily. It is in parts, right? Like they let her pick up the gun and everything, but the way she does everything, all her body language and all the attitude she gives everybody is perfect. She was funny in life. She was funny in death. Have you heard about her urn, Carrie Fisher? Her urn? Her urn?

[00:46:03] She had her urn made in the shape and design of a Prozac pill. Okay. You got to see it. I'm going to send you, I'm going to send you a picture in DM right now. Okay. She was always like, and this is not even just a comedy thing. She was a champion of mental health. Right. She was a champion of like, take care of yourself. Don't be ashamed of your mental health. Right.

[00:46:28] And I just think wonderful person, gone too young and integral part of Star Wars. I don't think it's ever going to be the same without her. No. It's got a giant Prozac pill. That's hilarious. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:46] No, I think it was in that, for 1977 and all the things that we're dealing with in terms of gender politics at the time, for her to grab a gun and shoot and take charge, like really. The, um, so the movie has to be a good movie like this has to be timeless as well as timely.

[00:47:16] And so I think in that moment, seeing a strong woman character take the lead and, uh, challenge, you know, the, the, the old smuggler hand who thinks he knows everything. Not only does it work great comically, but socially there's some strong messaging for the time as well. Right. For what 1977 was about and what we were dealing with then. Yeah.

[00:47:43] I mean, 1977, right in the middle of the effort to get the equal rights amendment passed. Yep. Um, I mean, right. It was essentially, we did the civil rights act and they were like, what can we do about women's rights? And then we kind of did nothing. Um, and, uh, that's a whole other podcast, but. We had things like Tootsie and, uh, what was the Dolly Parton movie about the workplace? Nine to five. Nine to five. I once played in a pit band for that. I played in it. Yeah, I did. So I know that one real well. Oh, hilarious.

[00:48:13] What, uh, 95, 95 was 1980. So just a few years after this. So, yeah. So, you know, you, we can't not remember the fact that, you know, she's challenging, uh, a lot more stereo cultural norms, you know, than we may appreciate rewatching it at this time. I agree. I agree. Um, I don't think I have much more to say about Leia.

[00:48:40] I could just gush about this character, but she, she has even more iconic moments in the next couple of movies and we're, we're going through these characters fairly quickly. Yeah. Why don't we go to Han Solo? Whenever we played, uh, Star Wars on the playground, Han Solo was my guy. Okay. I was, uh, I was not a Luke Skywalker. I needed to be the, uh, I need to be the, the, the, the rogue, the laugh, the, the lovable rogue or whatever. Scoundrel. Scoundrel. I think he's usually the scoundrel referred to. Yes, the scoundrel.

[00:49:09] He, uh, Harrison Ford apparently almost resents Han Solo because he wants to be known as Indiana Jones. Oh, that's my understanding is he, he's like Indy. Look, you look at the two characters together. Indiana Jones is cooler, right? Like objectively from a point, Indiana Jones is a cooler guy. You'd want to hang out with Indiana Jones before Han Solo. Hmm. I have to think about that. I think so. Okay. He's got everything. He's got the wits.

[00:49:38] He's, he has no weaknesses except stakes. Yeah. He's, he's, he's, he goes traveling around the world. He's always got a nice companion going on. I mean, the guy's great. Yeah. And what he does with that whip. I mean, come on. It's true. I don't know. I'm a sucker for, uh, uh, uh, his, for that, uh, low, that hip or that, uh, that thigh slung blaster and the vest, you know, but you got the thigh slung whip. Yeah.

[00:50:08] No, it doesn't do it. The whip doesn't do it for me. The whip doesn't do it for me. I'm about to talk, uh, the new Indiana Jones game with Brandon. Oh, nice. I think I'm a little jazzed up about Indiana Jones right now. Okay. I recently got to play as Indiana Jones. Yeah. No, I, the boots, the vest, the, you know, the, the chest hair that's, that's, you know, the, the center part hair. That's, it's all my vibe from the seventies. Would you, were you an Indiana Jones person? Yeah.

[00:50:34] I mean, I enjoyed the movies, but I didn't, I didn't gravitate to the archetype of Indiana Jones to the character. I, yeah. Okay. If I holding those two in my mind, in my mind's eye right now, I definitely gravitate towards Han Solo. Okay. That's fair. That's fair. I think after we finish this, I'm going to pitch a, an indie film festival. All right. I'd be down for that. I think that'd be fun. I'd be down for that. Cause I, I recently watched Raiders of the Lost Ark after playing the indie game and I was like, this is just a fun movie.

[00:51:04] You know, this is just an adventure that I want to be on. And it really pulls up a lot of classic elements of, of old movie, you know, of that old movie genre stuff. So. Yeah. All right. I mean, Han Solo fastest ship in the galaxy. Do we believe him? No, but he's just that good of a pilot that we trust him anyway. Right. Han shot first. He did shoot for man. We got to talk about this.

[00:51:34] We do have to talk about it. It's funny. Cause I never knew that controversy. And so we still, until we started doing this film festival and you, you talked to me about it and I was like, wait a minute. What? I can't believe they're re they're doing revisionist history on this. So listener at home in the original 1977 theatrical cut, when what's his name? Guido. Guido. Greedo. Greedo. Greedo. He, uh, shoots at Han. He didn't shoot at Han.

[00:52:03] Han shot first. Han just shot him dead before he could pull the trigger. Right. And, um, Lucas later changed that with the special editions so that Han was shot at first to make him look like a better guy. Like he was self-defense. Yep. And I think that, that degrades the character. I agree. I agree. It makes him less of a gray character. Yeah. And you know, he, he knew that the chips were down. He had a potential score.

[00:52:33] He, this guy, right. He didn't have a lot of, he's a lower level minion. He's in his way. And it makes Han Solo to be somebody who is, uh, is ruthless the right word? I mean, that's, that seems kind of strong. It's just. He's, he's willing to do what it takes to get what he wants. Right. Yeah. And, and that's, I think that's great for the character and it shows that he grows over the

[00:53:01] couple of movies where he's now volunteering for the rebel Alliance and looking out for Luke and looking out for Leah. Uh, it's way different than he is in the first movie. And I, I think that's great character development. I mean, I, I recently watched Empire Strikes Back 2 separate from this. And I'm just thinking about his old fight with Leah at the beginning. And you're, you're like, this is a pivotal moment for him coming from the guy who shot first to the guy who's going to go save his friend.

[00:53:27] And it, it tells us everything we need to know about him in that moment that he's willing to shoot first. Right. Right. I also like character signal. Yeah. And I also like when, when Alec Guinness and, and Luke run away and he goes 17, these guys are desperate. Like he's a good negotiator. Right. Like he, he got what he wanted. Yeah. Playing poker. Right. Right. He's doing the whole thing.

[00:53:55] And Chewy, were you a big Chewy fan as a kid? Was I a fan? No. Did I appreciate him? Yes. You know, he's the, uh, he's the sidekick character. Uh, that it, it, boy, I really have to think about the Lone Ranger and Tonto. Um, and that there was always the sidekick who, who is sort of mysterious. You never, you know, knew, nevermind all the problematic nature of that relationship and

[00:54:24] that, you know, of that time, that television show. But it is a trope that is brought forward that we understood. We instantly understood how to deal with Chewbacca. He's a side character who's a little bit comic relief and, uh, you know, Han can't be alone because then he'd just be a weirdo. He's got to have at least one friend in the universe, but then he, but, but Chewbacca can't ever be the center of the story. Right.

[00:54:51] He's always got to be regulated off to the side. I'm sorry. Have you not seen the Star Wars holiday special? I met a lot of Wookiees. That's where it, that's, that's part of why that show flipped the table over is because we were like, oh my goodness, you know, we're suddenly getting Wookiee culture. What is this? But it's the idea that there's the, this, um, this, uh, archetype that we, because this

[00:55:19] is as much as it is a, uh, samurai movie, it's also a space Western, right? And Han Solo is a gunslinger and, you know, they're coding him as a lone ranger type in the sense that, you know, he can become something, you know, he's not good right now, but he is going to become good. He's got a sidekick.

[00:55:45] Like we know that, you know, uh, the lone ranger has a sidekick and so that moves us forward in that direction. Right. So when, when he has his turn comes, it's all there. But, um, yeah, no, I mean, you know, nevermind the fact that like this big hairy walking carpet is, there must be like the amount of like hairballs that are in the Millennium Falcon has got to be ridiculous. Let's talk about a couple of other side characters. C3PO and R2D2, our favorite droids.

[00:56:15] Anthony Daniels got his whole career here. He, he basically just does our, uh, C3PO for the rest of his career, right? Yeah. He's still doing it. I think. Oh, really? Yeah. He's, he's still kicking Anthony Daniels. Let's see. Let's see what his last film credit was. Let's see if he's still doing it. Uh, 2019, he did the rise of Skywalker and 2024, he did Lego star Wars rebuild the galaxy. Okay. So he's, he's doing it.

[00:56:44] He's doing it. So watching this in the, that whole scene of them crossing the quarter when the blaster bolts are going by the audience at our theater, every time we just roared with laughter. Like that was hilarious. And that stuff is coming right out of the, uh, slapstick, you know, tradition of, of earlier films of, of the side of silent films and of all kinds of stuff.

[00:57:11] And something that really bothers me about the later films is that they try to recreate some of that kind of humor, but it's too intentional. This there's an art to this kind of, of humor and it plays, it's timeless. It's great. And, uh, the whole odd couple nature to them, uh, what were the original odd couple? Uh, um, well, I'm thinking of Laurel and Hardy. And then of course, uh, uh, Abbott and Costello, Abbott and Costello.

[00:57:41] And then Laura, um, uh, Shirley, you got, yeah, that I'm thinking of, uh, Walter Matthau and, um, uh, the, the, the, from the television show, the odd couple, but yeah, you have, you have this whole tradition, you know, very long tradition of, of this kinds of stuff. And so they, they fit that perfectly. Yeah. And what I really resent. Is.

[00:58:08] The retconning of putting them back as little side projects of Anakin. Hmm. Um, well, R2D2 was not to be clear. Oh, C3PO was right. Yeah. R2D2 was actually Padme's droid. Okay. That Anakin kind of took over. It's. Um, C3PO, they did have that whole thing where, because he could talk in basic and not in binary.

[00:58:36] He, they had to brain wipe him at the end of the prequel trilogy. Right. And you're like, was that actually the same droid? If you brain wiped them? You're right. Yeah. I just, I, I just found that, um, it just cheapened the whole thing of just having us be introduced to these two great characters. They didn't even sell toys, man. Yeah. That's all it is. It really annoyed me. Yeah. So then, then when they show up with Obi-Wan, I'm like, I don't remember owning any droids and all this kind of stuff.

[00:59:06] It's just like, yeah, it, it just really, it just cheapened. It makes things not mean stuff when you do that. Yeah.

[00:59:42] Yeah. He is a student of his craft. Right. And so he's pulling all of these different elements from all of these, uh, from these different time periods and genres and then weaving them together really well. And so they, they work as characters and they, you know, uh, I, I love the whole thing of, three people like, Oh, you know, I've worked with that unit before. He's very reliable. And then later on, he's like, Oh, that little droid, he must be, he's gone off his rocker.

[01:00:09] I can't believe, you know, he, and he really throws R2-D2 under the sand crawler. You know, it's, it's hilarious. He, he's ride or die, but he needs to be, you know, like he, he will do the right thing when he needs to, but he'll complain the whole way. Or when he's on the comm link and they're, they're screaming for joy and he's like, Oh, I've killed them. Oh, you know, like all of that stuff is just great. Oh my gosh. Good stuff. All right. Let's take another break. When we get back, let's talk about some bad guys.

[01:00:57] And we're back. So David, let's talk about some bad guys. The big one, the one introduced here, the most iconic villain of all time, perhaps Darth Vader. What a great villain. What a great entrance that he makes, you know, blowing through the, the door in the hallway there with his troopers, which is the contrast is so awesome with this pristine white tube of a corridor.

[01:01:24] And then the, the storm troopers and their faceless tactical armor. And then in strides, this all black caped thing. Just an all time, all time entrance, right? One of the best all time entrances. Truly. And the fact that it took two people to play him, you had a voice in a body. Yeah. Yeah. And then you get a third person in return of the Jedi cause you get his face. All right. That's right. And then you get a fourth person for the prequel.

[01:01:53] And then you get a fifth person for the kid in the prequels. That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that. He might be the most like differently played except like the doctor and doctor who one of the most differently played people ever. Right. I can never remember the name of the actor who played Vader in the suit though. That is, I don't know. I'm going to figure it out. It's David Prowse. Okay. Right.

[01:02:23] And David Prowse was, I believe, Scottish and a very thick Scottish accent. Am I wrong? Oh man, he's English. He's English. The English are going to be really mad at me. Anyway, he had, he had a, a thick accent that I think that they didn't really want from. He had a higher voice. They just didn't want it for Vader. And then they get James Earl Jones, of course, coming in and lending his thunderous voice. Yeah. To Darth Vader. I mean, completely iconic. What would you do without it? Amazing.

[01:02:54] And then we get that very first scene where he's got the captain of the ship, you know, up on a choke and he throws him across the room and, you know, tear this ship apart. It's just, you really feel the villain-ness of it. Yeah. It's great. And then when we're introduced later on the Death Star to, to Tarkin and wow, you know, somebody's got a leash on this guy, right?

[01:03:22] You know, that, that Tarkin has authority over him in some way. You're like, whoa, then who's got authority over them? Like that's gotta be like a really powerful bad guy. So it's a, they perfectly, you know, ramp up the, the tension of, um, of bad guy-ness, uh, by giving us Vader in that moment. And then we realize later, whoa, there's so much more going on here.

[01:03:47] You almost get the sense of like, there's often, we see this in the real world, these configurations of like mad men and then the bureaucrats that help them accomplish what their mad men personas want to do. Wait, we're not supposed to talk about concurrent politics. I'm not talking about current politics. I'm laughing. I'm making a point. Look, I'm joking. I'm making a joke. Let's do it in history. There's often mad men who want to do something, but they don't know how to, and then the bureaucrats

[01:04:17] will help them do it. Tarkin is that bureaucrat, right? Tarkin is the guy who knows who to call, who knows who to, you know, what, what brief to file. He knows what memo to write. And he knows the chain of command in a way that you feel like Vader doesn't really understand quite as well. He is just the brute force, but you need both to have it work, to have this kind of imperial dictatorship work.

[01:04:46] And that's fascinating to me. It gets into this when, uh, when they're in the briefing room and it's the thing, oh, you know, don't, don't scare us with your, your, your hokey religion. And you're like, oh, wait, oh, again, it's in that moment. The world expands. It's just like saying general and clone wars. It's like, oh, hokey religion. And while we're sitting around here in this very, you know, military briefing room, you're like, wait, what?

[01:05:14] There's a religion and a political and military structure beyond and the Senate and dissolving the Senate. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I just learned you got here and you're gone. Yeah. It's like, what is going on? So it's absolutely a great thing. And then of course, setting up the whole, you know, master and apprentice with Obi-Wan and Vader. Right. Right. And I guess Vader was originally supposed to be one of two apprentices, him and

[01:05:44] Anakin. Okay. Interesting. Did they, did, and so he didn't know that he was going to make him, uh, make him and Luke father. Like when, when, I mean, that's gotta be known thing, right? When did Lucas decide that? Let me do a deep dive on that ahead of empire, but I believe it's between the two films. We'll talk about it then. That's a good idea. I think it's between the two films.

[01:06:07] It's, I mean, look, it is the most known plot twist of all history and, uh, spoilers. There is, there was a great clip. I'm going to find it before empire. There's a great interview that, that Mark Hamill did about how he was told, you know, there are, there are like two people who know this twist and one of them is you and we're going to know it's you if this leaks. And so he just didn't say anything. And then they're watching the screening and Harrison Ford's behind him and he's like,

[01:06:36] you didn't tell me that kid. Uh, I gotta, I gotta find the clip though. He does a great Harrison Ford impression. Mark Hamill. Good, good material for the next pod. Yep. But, but anyway, the point is I don't think that he was supposed to be Luke's dad at this point, which is fascinating. We kind of talked about Tarkin a little bit. I did see, apparently they wanted to make Tarkin Obi-Wan, the actor, Peter Cushing. Uh, God, no. Yeah. They wanted to have him be Obi-Wan at first and they were like, no, he's a villain.

[01:07:06] Yeah. He's a villain. Imagine being told like you're more of a villain type. He's so good in this. He's so smooth. He's so confident. And the accent like makes him so much more evil, uh, evil. And, uh, just a, uh, for, for the minimal amount of screen time he actually has on this movie, his impact is so, uh, outsized, you know, the, the minutes, it's just such a complete

[01:07:35] inverse of proportionality. Peter Cushing, by the way, also played Dr. Who. And I say that not the doctor, he played Dr. Who, which was like this, uh, sloppy adaptation movie set about the first few Dr. Who stories. Oh, wow. Uh, so he played the doctor in those. Okay. So he, he was almost in the Dr. Who universe, but he's not considered canon. Very, very good actor.

[01:08:04] Scrolling through his, um, his, uh, filmography. He's got some funny titles there. He's got some pretty, pretty hilarious stuff. The blood beast terror. Some may live. Oh my gosh. Yeah. He's got some dialects invasion. Earth 2150 AD in 1966. Dr. Who. There you go. Yeah. So job of the hut. Oh yeah. Let's talk about him before we move on to locations. Job of the hut.

[01:08:32] Uh, you know, I've been reading Dune and I'm going, which came first job of the hut or, or things that happen in the later dude books, things that happen in the books. Yeah. I was like, and, and Alicia pointed out to me clearly Dune one on this one, but certainly I think Jabba is inspired by Dune in some part. Hmm. Uh, it's, it's, uh, okay.

[01:08:59] So I guess this, can I rant a slightly a little bit? This is no about the, it's Star Wars. Of course people rant. I mean, that's the, it's built into the whole community. It's more, there's more ranting than movies. Yes, exactly. The, the add-ins that Lucas put in, you know, with the extra street scenes and tattooing and stuff, all of that background flavor, color-y stuff, more extra, um, you know, troopers out

[01:09:29] searching the, around the area of the skate pod and everything. That's fine. I can kind of deal with those, even though I don't need them. I don't, none of them add anything to the story for me. And, and I don't know why, why you wanted to, to make those. Or, or like when, when Han's running down the corridor and then they, he runs into a whole bunch of more troopers and then, oh my God, on the other side of that door, there's even 10,000 more.

[01:09:56] Like, I thought that was just kind of stupid and didn't add anything. It, it, um, it kind of cheapens everything else. But the one that I really resent, the one that I really don't like is Jabba in the hangar bay. Hmm. Because when we were in the story, who's Jabba Hutt? Who's Jabba the Hutt? Who is this mysterious person that has a number, you know, has a hold over Han? It was so much better unrevealed.

[01:10:22] So that then when we get to Return of the Jedi, you know, because we don't, still don't know who he is in Empire. And then when we get to Jedi and then we get to see what Jabba the Hutt really is, it's that much more impactful. At this point, again, it just sort of cheapens it. Well, I thought in the original one, there was a puppet. No. Oh. No, that whole scene is gone. They go to the hangar.

[01:10:49] The, the guy outside on the comms is calling the troopers. The troopers show up and, uh, they have a gun battle and then they take off. Hmm. Jabba the Hutt is never there. I didn't even realize. We don't see Boba Fett. We don't see any of the other bounty hunters. I think because I grew up with this one, I thought this was always part of it. Mm-mm. I thought they just replaced the puppets. I was like, yeah, that's stupid, but I get it. Nope. No interaction with Jabba the Hutt whatsoever. So he's just this nameless thing until boom, you know, Return of the Jedi. And we're like, whoa, that's Jabba the Hutt?

[01:11:19] Damn. Do you think on April Fool's Day we can do Spaceballs and do Pizza the Hutt? I love it. I think it's great. We have to totally do that. Pizza the Hutt. I'm delicious. That always made me laugh. When is Spaceballs released? They were going to say when's April Fool's Day because I could tell you that. 87. So pretty far off. And when is Empire? Is 84 in Return? Empire is 81, I think. 81. Yeah, I think you're right. And Return of the Jedi is 83.

[01:11:50] Okay. Yeah. So Spaceballs is significantly after. Yeah. I'm sure that it took a little bit for the ILM stuff to work its way to the comedy people. You know? Like, I don't think that Mel Brooks was their first choice of clients. Right. Oh, boy. A Mel Brooks film festival would be pretty fun, too. Oh, yeah. He's got good stuff. He's got good stuff. The blips and the bloops. What? Well, let's talk about locations. Let's do it.

[01:12:20] Let's do it. So, yeah. That was my rant about the filming. It was like all that other stuff, whatever. It just kind of, I don't know why it's worth the effort, but why put Joppa in the hutt? Okay. Yeah. There's just a lot of weird stuff that he puts in these. I wish he had never done most of it. Yeah. They were fine. Like, do the visual enhancements. That's fine. Like, make it upscale 4K, whatever. Yeah. But you don't need to do this stuff. I'd seen the movie so much that you could see the tracking shot.

[01:12:49] Like, when a TIE fighter would go across the screen, you could see the little blocks of overlays. Because you picked up on the details you've seen so many times. Oh, gosh. So, let's talk about the locations. Tatooine is the first one. I mean, you mentioned that Lucas kind of beefs up some of the drive-by exposition, a good one might say. What do you think of this? This is a ruckus, right? Like, again, the Dune stuff is just screaming over here.

[01:13:20] It's so funny because I am such a, you know, Dune is probably my single favorite sci-fi world. But I'm not, you know, I don't know that. I know a lot, but I guess I'm not a super expert. And Tatooine never, Spice, all this stuff, I just never make the parallels. It never hits it for me.

[01:13:47] And I know other people see it, and I just don't. It misses me. I don't know why. I get it. It's just desert, right? Like, it doesn't have a lot of the signature things of Dune, like the sandworms. Yeah, the Fremen. I mean, you got a Sarlacc pit, but. I get it. It's pretty close to the sandworms. I get the inspirations. I get the connectivity, and that's all fine. Like, as you said, you know, like steal from your, you know, steal from other people. Yeah.

[01:14:13] So, I just wish the rest of Star Wars, I mean, we just always keep going back to Tatooine. And so it's like, oh. I know. It makes it feel smaller when you keep going back to this planet. I, too, am sick of Tatooine. I have tattooitis. I'd like to cure it. I'd like to see more of Alderaan. Alderaan has been awesome every time I see it. If we could go to the prequel trilogy and do more Alderaan. What do you think? What do you think of Alderaan? We don't really get to see much of it.

[01:14:42] Isn't that where, yes, okay, that is, I have a bad impression of Alderaan. Because, isn't that with, yeah, that's in the prequel movies with the underground ocean thing. No, that's Naboo. Oh, that is Naboo, right, okay. Alderaan, we don't even see it that much in the prequels, but the most we see it is in the Obi-Wan series. Okay. I don't remember it much then. I must be tired. Weird, because I am mixing up my locations here.

[01:15:12] Yeah, I don't know much about it. I can't say that I would, what I want to see more of. The fact that they just decide to wipe it out in the movie, again, just, man, talk about shock and awe, right? Just really, like, well, they just blew up a whole world. We didn't talk about how Leia gives a fake location of the Rebels. Right. So, even faced with the death of everyone she loves, she does pretend to give it up, but she doesn't.

[01:15:41] Mm-hmm. Yeah, she gives him an old one. An old one, right? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know much about Alderaan, to tell you the truth. Yeah. Well, we can return to that at a later date, or I guess we won't, because it's gone. Okay. But, again, there's not a lot of locations in this movie, in general. You're kind of on Tatooine for, like, half of it. Yavin 4, we go to eventually. Again, not a lot of stuff going on there.

[01:16:11] We're mostly in the Rebel base. So, why does it take the Death Star, like, 15 minutes to clear? Why couldn't they just jump in on the other side of where, like, plotted the orbit? I don't know. I was thinking about that. Well, hyperspace lanes, you can only come out at certain points. Okay. And so... That's an after-the-fact thing. Yeah. They needed 15 minutes to give the fighters a time to attack. Well, if they have to get to a certain point.

[01:16:40] So, your hyperspace lanes, they open up at specific points, right? Okay. So, if you open up at this point, now you gotta... If you want to get to this other side of the planet, you gotta... You know, you gotta go there manually. You have to go with the manual thrusters. Manufactured. I got it. Yeah. It's fine. It's fine. Stuff like that. That was all really stuff.

[01:17:09] Because it added that we suddenly go from desert planet to fancy space station to this jungle planet. Like, that was a cool location. Right. I mostly know it from playing the Battlefront games. Okay. Because you can do, like, the battle for Yavin 4, like the ground battle and things like that. Although, there's not really a ground battle. But anyway. Anyway, I think there's Yavin 4 level on one of the Battlefront games. But I can't remember.

[01:17:38] One of the older ones, I think. And the Death Star in general. I mean, I feel like that's just a location on this. It's so mechanical and cold to me. It's such a wonderful villain lair. I also read... Yeah. Apparently, George wanted, like, the whole trilogy arc to be in one movie originally. Okay. And it had to end with the Death Star being destroyed. But he couldn't make the first movie work without the Death Star being destroyed.

[01:18:08] Which is why he had to bring back another Death Star in the third one. Oh, right. To make it make sense. Right. Okay. Gosh, George. You think about the size of the thing. It's just incredible. I think people have even done, like, economic studies on it. Like, how much it would have cost to build and operate. It really is a marvel. Yeah. And you think of the fact that even just to fly around the frickin' thing, right?

[01:18:37] To even attack the one particular trench. And something I didn't realize for the longest time, the trench that they're attacking is not the equatorial trench. Mm-hmm. It's a trench that runs north-south, not around the belt of it. Interesting. Yeah. So. I mean, David, you and I are in the U.S. We spend so much frickin' money on the military. Why do we not have one of these by now? I mean, it's just ridiculous. Where's the money going?

[01:19:08] Uh, yeah. Well, incredibly complex piece of technology, isn't it? Yeah. And I do like that in, and, or we're starting to get into, like, the construction of it a little bit. Mm-hmm. Very interesting stuff. So, the trench runs off the top of the big dish. Hmm. Hmm.

[01:19:35] So, yeah, there's the equatorial trench, and it runs off the top of it, I guess. Hmm. Yeah. Interesting. And the exhaust port is, like, more on the top of the Death Star. I guess that makes sense. Yeah. God, you imagine. I don't want to push it back on you. Although, I guess it wouldn't in space. Yes.

[01:19:57] The amount of command and control that you need to have to be able to run a place like that, which is what I love, too, about the fact that they're able to, once they get into, you know, use the old trope of get into the enemy's uniforms and walk around. When we get to Andor, and Andor, Cassian talks about, you know, that they just can't imagine that you would just try to walk around in their space. Right. Right?

[01:20:26] You would just try to walk around and be one of them. They're so arrogant. And we really see that in this movie. Like, nobody questions the fact that they're escorting this Wookiee around. It's so great. They're the Empire. They won. Why would they think that anyone else is trying to get into it? I mean, you even see in the original debate in, you know, Tarkin's command room, some of them are going, like, with it. And rebels. I mean, who cares? They're just peasants. And people are going, this is serious. You've got to take this seriously.

[01:20:55] Very, very differing opinions. And I think that's realistic for the way that people discuss politics today. Right. Right. So, what is the impact of the Star Wars universe? I felt silly writing anything for this, so I just wrote, this is Star Wars. Like, this was it. It doesn't exist without it. Polar Trench. Oh, yeah. The Meridian Trench, sometimes the Polar Trench, was situated near the North Pole of the Death Star. Yeah. Sorry, I was looking at more of that.

[01:21:29] The impact of this movie, I mean, it shaped a generation. It cracked open an entire new industry. It spawned a massive, sprawling storytelling universe. What did Disney buy it for? How many billion? Four billion? Something like that. That's insane. Disney, Star Wars, purchase. I think it's like four billion. I think you're right. Four point oh five billion, yep.

[01:21:59] You know, that's an extraordinary amount of money for a movie franchise property. It regurgitates a bunch of, I don't say regurgitates, maybe that's not the right word.

[01:22:15] It harvests a bunch of filmmaking traditions and tropes from different genres, puts them all together and creates something new from them. It's impact is hard to get your head around, seriously. Yeah.

[01:22:40] At really what it did and what it did to us and what it did to generations thereafter. Even through the prequels. They couldn't kill it. It took a long time, though, to come back. It did. It did. I think George, I mean, look, in fairness, George had so much undeserved hate. I forgot who it was. Somebody in our Discord did a meme of like, oh, you don't care about trade routes? How about now?

[01:23:07] It's like, George has been like shockingly prescient about the issues that we care about in our politics. Right. And Star Wars, you know, we don't talk about real world current politics on this podcast, really. But Star Wars has always been really political. Like. Oh, yeah. You have to see the parallels between Vietnam and the original trilogy. And you have to see the parallels between the Iraq war, the war on terror in general, and the prequel trilogy. Like, it's just there. Right.

[01:23:36] And that's the amazing thing about this film. It's a buddy movie. It's a heist movie. It's a gunslinger movie. It's a samurai movie. It's a fairy tale movie. Right. You know, we've got to rescue the princess from the evil dragon. And so it's so many different things all packed into this. How long is it? An hour and a bit. You know, it's it's hour 40. I think hours. Yeah. Hours.

[01:24:06] And it that moves at a pace. And, you know, it's it's a phenomenal piece of filmmaking. And the fact that, you know, the script was a mess and that his wife was the one who edited it and like actually made it worth. Yeah. I've seen some of the the dropped scenes like with him and with Luke and and Biggs. And you're just like, oh, man, some really bad dialogue and some really bad action.

[01:24:36] And you're like, oh, I'm glad that she cut those things. Well, thank God for her. Thank the force. Thank the force. I think that's an interesting thing, too, because, you know, as the first one and then the next one, he doesn't Lucas doesn't direct it. Right. He brings in a different director. Correct. Correct. Let me and he I think he co-writes it, too. Right. And that, you know, it's Lucas. Yeah.

[01:25:04] Irvin Irvin Kirshner. Lucas is credited for creating this world. But man, the success of it really rests on the shoulders of a number of different people. Well, it's really interesting because people don't want to touch Star Wars with 10 foot poles sometimes. When Lucas said, I want to make the prequel trilogy, he knew that he had weaknesses as a director.

[01:25:28] And so he actually asked Ron Howard to direct The Phantom Menace. And Ron Howard said, no, thanks. I think you should do it. So George, I think you should do it. So thank you, Ron Howard, for handing us that. I need to have a conversation with the properly. That movie was not properly Howard. That was not. No. So, yeah.

[01:25:52] And we've talked about this a lot, that the storytelling chops that Lucas has versus his filmmaking chops and the difference between the two. I think George Lucas is a masterful world builder. And he's really great at coming up with like big arcs for stories. And he's not so great at dial.

[01:26:13] He's not so great at, you know, when you're a musician, when you're trying to score a movie or score a play, there's a difference between the person who will write the melodies and the themes and the person who will orchestrate it for the full ensemble. And I think Lucas is not very good at writing for the full ensemble. Lucas is good at writing the themes, if I could borrow that analogy.

[01:26:40] And Mark from Nevermind the Music, if you're listening right now, please tell me what the difference is. I think one writes the songbook and the other one writes the score. I can never remember the difference between the two. But yeah, I just think that Lucas is really good at big picture stuff, really good at like the vibes of everything. And just not so good at making it gel together in the end. I'm looking at his filmography and I'm just like, oh yeah, oh yeah, I didn't see that one.

[01:27:10] Oh no, that one wasn't so good. George Lucas? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, he got a big success with American Graffiti, which is how he got to make this at all. Yep. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Well, I think that's about it for tonight. I tried to find the feedback. I couldn't find any feedback. Sorry, everyone, if you wrote in a year ago and we lost it. But write in again, feel free. And I promise I'll put it in the outline this time because we're actually doing these on a regular basis again.

[01:27:40] I have to say, I feel a little rusty getting back into this world. So hopefully, I'm excited to talk about Empire. Yeah. Because that movie has so much dramatic tension in it that it's really a gem among the three. It is a gem. And I even watched it recently and I was like, this holds up. Yeah. This is just like a good, good movie. It's got twists and turns and soul searching and betrayals.

[01:28:08] And yeah, it's really, really. And it just starts off with a great battle sequence too. Yeah. I'll read up a little bit more about it in prep for our next recording. That sounds good. Well, let's talk a little bit about what we're doing on the network. Never mind the music. You want to talk a little bit about them? You're very good at gushing about them. That's why I asked. I don't know what they've got coming up.

[01:28:34] I know that we're talking with them about doing a one-shot on the Saturday Night Live music documentary that Questlove has put together, which is a phenomenal piece of history. It's so cool. And I know we're all three excited to talk about that. But that's, never mind the music is Mark and Nicole. She's a psychology professor. He is a music professor.

[01:29:04] And they take apart songs and they talk about psychology of music. And what do we got coming up here right now? We have... Levitating by Dua Lipa. Okay, that's a good one. And Modular Melodic Personalities. See, you're like, what is that? You've got to find out what's going on with that. See, I'm trying to get them to do an episode, maybe a sidetrack, on the Kendrick Drake beef. Oh, that would be really good. I think that would be a lot of fun. Because that confuses the heck out of me.

[01:29:33] I'm going to do my best to explain it on the next Second Breakfast. So tune in for that. Okay, good. And then they're going to do Long Train Running by the Doobie Brothers. That is going to be a really good one. I'm looking forward to that. End of February, that'll be coming out. Very cool. And we had, of course, we had Nicole on for a couple of bonus episodes for Severance as well as Mark. So we're going to be talking to them again at the end of the season for their final wrap-up thoughts. Very cool. We've got Radioactive Ramblings with Aaron.

[01:30:01] They just put out their Princess Mononoke episode. Indeed. I started to listen to that the other day. And they're going to be coming out with some Castlevania coverage. Okay. Seems pretty fun. And once Fallout comes back on, which I'm pretty sure it got renewed because that was like... It definitely did get renewed. It's one of the biggest shows of last year in terms of viewership. And the numbers were off the hook. And they did a really great job of covering that show. Yeah. We'll see when that comes back.

[01:30:28] I'm sure that's going to be like 2026 because all these shows take too long now. Yep. We'll shift dust. Alicia wrapped up Silo. Yep. Very good season. She's doing her Oscar coverage over here now. Yep. So keep up with everybody. And I know she has some plans for Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast coming up. I just don't know what they are. But go subscribe to that if you want more Star Wars. She's really great. The way she walks you through all of the timeline without spoiling later things in the timeline. Really incredible.

[01:30:57] Very almost academic work. Yeah. I would say academic is the right adjective. Improperly, Howard. Yeah. They're watching movies together. They're laughing. It's good. They had a great season doing A Few Good Men. They took all that. They did a little draft. So starting from A Few Good Men, the actors and writers, they did a whole sequence on all sorts of related films.

[01:31:25] And I think what's up next, I think, is going to be a Kevin Bacon inspired. Well, don't spoil it now. Oh. Don't tell anybody. All right. And our Severance podcast, we are covering Severance full-time every week with Properly Howard on the separate Severance feed. So check out the Severance feed in the show notes in the link tree. Make sure you subscribe to that or you get it in the Patreon or Supercast subscription. Or you get a season pass for that. Plenty of options for you to get those episodes.

[01:31:56] We're having a lot of fun. It's been a really good season so far. Oh, man. It is a perfect podcaster show. Yeah. It's a show made for podcasters. It really is. It really is. And we did crack the code on one of the mysteries before it came out, and I'm very proud of that. So, and I did gloat quite a bit, even though I wasn't on the last podcast. I found my way to gloat on it anyway. Yeah. Really great stuff. What else we got going on in this feed? Oscars coverage, like we talked about. Amelia Perez controversy. Animation.

[01:32:23] At least you had somebody who does campaigns for the Oscars for animation movies. And I think you should all listen to that because it was a very good conversation. And we are also doing all our side projects. I recorded a Silmarillion story with Aaron from Lore of the Rings that's going to be out shortly. Cool. And we're doing this. We're doing the Star Wars stuff.

[01:32:46] And then coming up, we've got The Last of Us and Wheel of Time and Andor with a little white lotus thrown in. On top of all of that, we've got the Thunderbolts coming out, and we've got some other, there's some Spider-Man stuff going on. I think Radioactive Ramblers, aren't they going to do Invincible? Or did they cover Invincible? Oh, I think they are going to. They cover the first few seasons. There's a new season out right now. Yeah. And I think they're going to do some coverage of that. In progress. Yep. Yep. Very good stuff. Very good stuff.

[01:33:17] All right, everyone. It's been very swell. I feel like I'm getting tired and I'm talking really loud. Yes, exactly. So we're getting to the end of our day. I'm going to hit you, David, with some music, and you're going to give me some thank yous. Oh, okay. Well, let me get the outro document open up. No time. No. Go. I don't know what to make of this music. It feels a little bit adventuresome.

[01:33:43] To our Discord server boosters, Aaron K., Tiller the Thriller, Dork of the Ninjas, Doove71, Athena Adilea, Tina Lastu, Nancy M., Ghost of Perdition, and Radioactive Richard. Thank you for making our community space a more fun and functional place to interact. Please check us out if you're not already on the Discord. It's a very cool way to interact with the rest of the community. To our Loremasters, our top tier subscribers.

[01:34:12] Without them, we couldn't do half of what we're doing. So, Samarshan, Michael G., Michelle E., Brian P., SC, Peter O. E. Boy, it's been a while since I've read these.

[01:34:25] So, Petita W., Adam S., Nancy M., Doove71, Brian8063, also known as Usul, Frederick H., Sarah L., Gareth C., Matthew M., Sarah M., DJ Miwa, Andra B., Kwong Yu, Jedi, Jedi Bob, Nathan T., Darren T., Alex V., Sub-Zero, Aaron K., Dally V., Mothership61.

[01:34:49] Well, Gnarles, Kathy W., Lestu, Jeffrey B., Elisa U., Neil F., Ben B., Scott F., Steven N., Julia F., Callie S., and Ilmereel, and forever last but never least, Adrian. Thank you all so very much. Adrian, where are you? We miss you. I hope you're okay. We haven't heard of him in a long time. Yeah, he had a big move, and we have not heard from him. So, please come back if you're around.

[01:35:17] How did Brian8063 become Usul? He is the strength, the base of the pillar. Okay, I buy it. I buy it. I'm in. You sold me. Well, everyone, it's been fun. Join us next month for Empire Strikes Back. The Lorehounds Podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds.

[01:35:46] And connect with us on Twitter at the Lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening.