Star Wars - Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back

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[00:00:59] on Shopify.de slash radio. Welcome to a Star Wars Film Festival.

[00:01:26] We're the Lorehounds, your guides to a galaxy far, far away. I'm David. I'm John. And this is our coverage of the 1980 film, Star Wars Episode 5, The Empire Strikes Back. In this podcast, we're going to break down the plot themes and impact of the movie before answering some listener feedback. We're covering all of the major Star Wars movies in story order. So next up will be Episode 6, Return of the Jedi.

[00:01:52] So be sure to send us your thoughts and feedback about The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, or any other Star Wars meta issues. You can send the feedback to StarWars at thelorehounds.com, or visit us on our website and use the contact form or send us a voicemail. Also, we have a great Discord community. We have a lot of fun folks who know a lot about Star Wars and they love to talk. They sure do.

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[00:02:49] And that was an interesting movie. That's what you have to say about that. That's what I have to say about that. But we're doing, I'm bringing back Millennial Madness next month. So you don't want to miss it on 11Zs. Right. We've got, what, Scott Pilgrim, Zoolander, and My Sister's Story? My Sister's Keeper, which is not, I knew that was going to go nowhere, but I wanted to give people an alternative to the goofiness. Because the other two were very goofy and I was like, all right, let me throw in a serious one. And I told my wife what I did and she said,

[00:03:19] you gave the exact opposite of the other two movies? Yeah, yeah. Well, it looks like Scott Pilgrim's pulling ahead in early leads on the voters poll. So. It's true. Which is a great movie. I'll be thrilled to talk about it. I think this will be my second shout out for Zoolander if we don't, if that one doesn't make it onto the, onto the slate. Maybe we'll just do Ben Stiller one time. A Ben Stiller film festival? Yeah. I am doing a Gene Hackman film festival for my next month when it comes up and around. All right. I look forward to it.

[00:03:49] He was Royal Tenenbaums, right? Yep. Mm-hmm. Okay. All right. I like that movie. He's good in that. He was one of our greatest actors of the generation. Well, speaking of generational films, we're talking about The Empire Strikes Back today. And I want to get your hot take on it, David. What's your, what's your hot take? I just finished speed watching it. I was switching between 1.75 and 2X to get through.

[00:04:17] I wanted to have it fresh in my mind. And I think my overall take is, is that without a doubt, well, okay. Of the canon movies, right? Not any of the extra stuff. Mm-hmm. And we only have two, what? Only two extra movies, right? So, Lohan and Orr. And those are still canon. Yeah, canon, but like, you know, core movies. Yeah, of the numbered movies, of the saga movies. Yeah, the saga, that's a good way to put it.

[00:04:44] Of the saga movies, this is, without a doubt, my favorite. It's the best one. It really is. This is objectively the best Star Wars movie. I'm just going to say it. There's no other answer. It's the most sophisticated. It has the most at stakes, at stakes, at stake. It has a lot of great world building. It has a lot of great character development. The humor is on point. The dialogue is hilarious. Mm-hmm.

[00:05:14] And it's so much, it birthed so many memes and sayings and, you know, laser brain and carbonite and all kinds of stuff. Like, it really is a quintessential Star Wars movie. And something that occurred to me, I mean, I don't think this is an original thought, but something that occurred to me while I was watching it today was this is the breaking of the fellowship, right? Yeah. You're right. Right. And, uh, Everybody goes off and does their own thing for a little bit. Yeah.

[00:05:43] I mean, all these different directions, they go apart and come back together in different ways. And, yeah, it's just really, it's really good. And I think this movie has to, uh, my favorite, like actual little scene in, in all of Star Wars is, uh, one of my, my most favorite scenes here. And then I think one of the most important canonically scenes in it with the, uh, with the guy with the Cam Tono.

[00:06:09] You gotta elaborate on this for me because this is the scene did not strike me. You barely catch it. It's when they're running through the hallways and there's this dude who actually has a name, uh, what is it? Uh, Wilro hood. And he's just some sort of technician and he's running through the hallways and he's got this white container in his arms. Like he's fleeing, you know, like, Oh, I got to grab my stuff and go. And, uh, I don't know.

[00:06:38] It just got picked up on the internets and they gave the guy a name. There's, there's an action figure for him. It's bizarre. And so in, uh, the Mandalorian, right? When, when Mando goes to see, um, the, Oh, what's that guy's name? Who's the actor too? Oh man, I'm blanking it. I know what you're talking about. The, the Imperial guy, the Imperial remnant. The former remnant, uh, Imperial guy. Yeah. And he has the Camtono of, um, of, uh, of the goods, whatever the, what is it?

[00:07:08] I'm going to say gold plus Latinum, but that's Star Trek. Beskar. Thank you. Uh, I'm mixing my brains all mixed up with this stuff. Uh, with the Beskar, that's a Camtono. Okay. And as a, the thing is that, that what made it kind of this internet sensation. And again, I don't know all about this. I, there are other people who are like way, way, way into this. It, that thing is just basically an ice cream maker that you could buy off the shelf.

[00:07:35] And then he just like, well, that looks, uh, that looks like a science fiction prop here. Stick this in your, underneath your arm and run through the hallway when they call action. But that's, that's Star Wars to me is like this, like seat of your pants production that like looks great. And, and we're all on board, by the way, just, just to call out before we get some feedback on this Werner Herzog. Yes. Thank you. He's a client. Of course. He didn't actually have a name. Uh, he was just a client. And of course I know Werner Herzog. I just, you know, me, you know, my brain is becoming Swiss cheese.

[00:08:04] It's like, it's happening to all of us. It is. We're just, we're just. And it doesn't help that we're just packing in more and more and more, you know, IP and media and stories. I know. We're keeping a lot of stuff together. I don't know how Alicia does it. I know. I know. He has like such great recall and memory. Like I know. Our brain is really built for this stuff. Well, we're not Alicia, so we're going to use Google and it's going to be fine. So anyway, it was fun to, to rewatch this movie and, and to think about in the, in the,

[00:08:34] in the bigger picture from a storytelling standpoint too. There's, um, so there's a bunch of traditional star Wars inconsistencies and things, space worms. And like if they shot an Imperial probe from some star destroyer to hit the Hoth system at sublight speeds, we're talking, it's a long time. So like that little thing has a hyperdrive and well, okay, whatever. Uh, just, just go with it. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Beyond that stuff.

[00:09:03] Um, uh, I, I think there's an inconsistency with the carbon freezing thing too. Maybe we can talk about that later. There's, there's two plot line plot points or, you know, mechanics or something that run throughout the movie that I really appreciated as fascia of the story, like internal construction of the story. And there's, there's actually several, but two that really jumped out at me.

[00:09:31] Uh, one is the hyperdrive being a constant problem throughout the, the, the whole thing. And that keeps causing problems and they have to solve problems. You know, they, they keep getting into more and more adventures because of it. Da da da. Yeah. And then the other one felt natural, right? Like you're getting attacked. Something got hit. Yeah. We're trying to fix it, but we keep getting attacked. So we can't get on top of this. And then it's not working again, but it turns out the empire turned it off. You know, like, like all that stuff is great.

[00:09:58] And then the other one is they keep losing command officers, right? Like Vader keeps killing these guys and it creates this great dramatic tension, at least on the empire side of the storyline of, yeah, there's stakes involved because if you screw up, then Vader's going to kill you. And he does. And we get it, but we lose at least two officers, you know, throughout the course of this movie because of it, but it creates structure throughout the movie and it creates dramatic tension throughout

[00:10:28] the movie. And so they're just both plot devices that are really effectively used in the story. And I think that goes to the underlying, um, sensibility of the movie that it is, uh, head and shoulders above a lot of other things because it has, it's very smart in its construction. Yeah, it is. It is. It is. Absolutely. John, what about you? What do you have, uh, any hot takes for?

[00:10:58] You know, I, I definitely saw this as a small kid. Uh huh. I didn't really watch it again until I tried to get into star Wars more really the sequel trilogy. When that came out is when I said, I'm going to go back and I'm going to watch all the star Wars movies. Okay. And, and I think that's the first time I really like paid attention to it as a fully formed person. Um, and again, like it was immediately my favorite star Wars movie, right? Like it's, it just has everything. It has the dialogue. As you mentioned, it has the most iconic plot twist of all time, right?

[00:11:27] Like if you, if, if somebody held a gun to your head and said, tell me the most iconic plot twist of all time, it has to be this. I am your father. This is it. Yeah. To the point where I don't, I don't know if you, it shook culture, right? I know. Like shockwave culture. There's a great interview with Mark Hamill. I, you gotta just Google it. Mark Hamill talks about the twist and he talks about how they did the, the cast screening and they didn't tell any of the other actors what the twist was.

[00:11:56] Harrison Ford sitting behind him and he leans forward. He goes, Hey kid, is that true? It's so funny. And he does a great Harrison Ford impression too. Um, it, it, yeah. Like the fact that they were able to keep it, keep it secret from everybody. Like they, this was a real, like the internet couldn't leak it. There was no, there was no pirating of the, of the movie beforehand. Like this is the kind of cultural moment that I don't think we have anymore. Right. Right.

[00:12:27] Just because of all the theory crafting, like at some point somebody on Reddit was going to be like, yeah, Vader is definitely Luke's father. Right. Right. When you have a, that makes so much sense though. When you have a thousand monkeys at, you know, or an infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of typewriter, somebody is going to get the right answer at some point. Right. But if I have to write a paper letter, we're not going to get to the right answer in time. Three years isn't enough time. I mean, look, it's great.

[00:12:54] I think this showcases why you want George to be in charge of the story, but not the writing. Mm hmm. And, uh, I'll, I'll talk a little bit about, about the production. Um, this, uh, if you want to, I, we can kind of parlay this into the production details. This was directed by Irvin Kirshner. Right. Who? So the George did not direct this one. Uh, apparently George had to shop this around to direct because everyone was too nervous to go to the sequel of star Wars. Oh, that's interesting.

[00:13:24] They were like, like, uh, I, I read something on, on the Wikipedia article about like, his friends were just like, don't do this. Cause if you screw it up, this is the end of your career. Like this is the biggest IP right now. You can't screw up the sequel. He's like, I'm going to do it anyway. But it's interesting because, uh, if you look at Kirshner's, uh, filmography, not a lot of, not a lot of bangers on that list. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty thin. It's pretty, pretty interesting.

[00:13:51] Like this, this does as much as star Wars was now this global phenomenon, this does feel like a duct tape together movie too. Mm hmm. And that's, that's awesome. I think that star Wars works best when it's like this hodgepodge of different, different voices, just trying to try to figure out what's going on. Which is the, as is, uh, uh, star Wars to fill. I mean, I'm trying to make this construction work. I don't know if I can, but it's kind of like the Millennium Falcon, right?

[00:14:18] It's a fast ass ship when it's working, but when it's a, but it's a bit of a jalopy and it has a lot of inconsistencies and, uh, it doesn't always work the way you expect it to work. But man, when it flies, whoo. Right. Um, so, so this was, you know, story by George Lucas as always, but screenplay was by Lee Brackett and then Lawrence Kasdan. And the reason it has two screenwriters when it was originally going to be one was that,

[00:14:48] uh, Lee Brackett actually had cancer while she was writing it. Okay. And George had notes for her after getting her first draft and he couldn't get in contact with her because she had died. She died in the hospital. It was terrible. Very sad. Um, very different script. Uh, it did not have, it had like a separate sister that wasn't Leah. It had, uh, you know, more of the love triangle thing going on, like in the first movie. Oh, interesting. Okay. Uh, yeah, it had, it had Lando being a clone apparently. Mm hmm.

[00:15:17] Um, like Lando being a clone war veteran essentially. Okay. Um, and so a lot of, a lot of different stuff, but sort of the bones of what would become this movie. And then George did a pass and then he sent it over to, to Lawrence Kasdan. It sounds like. So he, this was again, like a little bit of hodgepodge, but he had other people writing the dialogue. I think that matters a lot. That she was known as the queen of space opera. Hmm. According to the Wikipedia's that's really interesting. Yeah. It's a shame.

[00:15:45] I would have, I would have liked to see what this turned into. It's just her at the helm. Right. Writing. Yeah. Gone in a very different direction. Yeah. Oh, Rio Bravo. Okay. Just looking at Atari. Oh, that's interesting. Oh wow. El Dorado. The long goodbye. Yeah. She's got some bangers there. She's writing. She's writing. More, more so than, uh, or older Irv does. And she's got tons of, uh, of, uh, books and pulp, pulp, uh, pulp science fiction stories and stuff. Wow.

[00:16:14] You know, I really didn't know anything about her. It's, it's really interesting. That's again, one of those hidden figures of, of history, right? Right. People who are. Uh, I think, I think it's, it's lovely that we've had come into this generation of like showrunners and writers we follow because I don't think that people did that as much throughout the 20th century. Mm-hmm . This is a new phenomenon where we're more interested in what's happening beyond the scenes. Right. Right. Right. And it's because of people like us, podcasters, heroes of the generation.

[00:16:45] We have a noble profession here. We do. Um. Our, our work is important and mysterious. So, so George had most of the, the profit interest in the sequels and merchandise on this. Cause. Of course he did. Because Fox who, who did the first movie was basically like, you're not going to make any money on this. Sure. Take all the profit. We'll pay you nothing upfront and you can take all the profit. And now George is like the richest man in the world because he, he made a boatload

[00:17:15] of money. He's. And then he sold it for $4 billion. Right. Which they've made back several times overall. I'm sure. Yeah. Um, so, so George is, is moving ILM. He's, he was actually really nervous to, um, to do this because he's like, again, like, what if I screw this up? And I think that's why he was more open to help than he was in later years. Right. Um, and, and so Fox, he, he made a deal with Fox to distribute this film again, but they,

[00:17:41] in exchange for having 50% of the gross profits of the first 20 million and then a higher percentage above, uh, a hundred million, they got no creative input. So the studio had zero input into this film. And I, I think that's interesting. I wish we had more of that today. And I think that is something of this generation of filmmakers.

[00:18:04] And I'm not enough of an authority to be able to speak, um, with a lot of, uh, cogent facts at my fingertips, but it's my understanding that like with, with Lucas and with, um, uh, with, uh, who's the other guy? Um, uh, Spielberg and, um, you know, and, and then like people like John Carpenter and

[00:18:30] others, you know, they were all out cause they had come out of the, we were, we were out, we're in new cinema, right? We're out of the, the big studios where you're attached, you know, an actor and directors are attached to these literal factories, right? They're literally. Right. You just have to do what they give to you. Exactly. And now we're into this world of auteur filmmakers and, um, having a final cut is a really big

[00:19:00] deal for these guys at Lynch. And Lynch just, we talked about some of this, uh, about some of this with, uh, the David Lynch film festival that we did and where we watched Eraserhead that these directors, and that's what kind of ruined, uh, Dune 1984 is that, and it ended up that Lynch didn't have final cut. And so the, the movie that he thought he was making was not the movie he wanted. And I think that was, as I understand it, that was Lucas's big, big deal. He was like, I want to make the movies that I want to make.

[00:19:29] And if you're a studio, stay out of my, you know, stay out of my kitchen. I totally get it. And so he gave up more money to have that freedom. To have creative control. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think he made the right decision on this. I mean, it, it, it's the best movie he ever made. But now then the, you know, it's interesting to think of the downstream effects of that is like, now the studios are like, oh, productizing and merchandising and like, um, you know,

[00:19:57] go, oh, we'll stick a can of Coke on that table in the frame. Hey, pay us Coke. Right. You know, all the product placement and stuff. I mean, I think with the, the toy, what do they call it? Uh, it's that is a toy genics or toy something. There's a process of, of turning, you know, this media stuff into toys and, uh, it's been made into a word. Um, he really ushered in that, that the, the modern standard for this. Right.

[00:20:26] And it was these movies that did that. Right. Especially 77. There are moments of, of pivoting with marketing like that. Like in video games, we, we always talk about the horse armor that ruined the world. Oh, okay. Because, uh, there was one game oblivion where they sold for $5. You could buy armor for your horse. It did nothing. It was just a cosmetic. And because it sold so well, that became the new thing is that we're going to sell cosmetics for your game. Right.

[00:20:54] That you don't just earn, but you pay for. And they don't necessarily. They don't do anything. No, no, no, no. Fortnite is free to play. They only make money on people buying the skins for the characters and they make more money than God. Like it's, it's insane. And so the same thing happens in merchandising with star Wars here. Right? Right. Yeah. This is a, a turning point for the industry. Uh, I think that's, that's about all the production stuff I want to go through.

[00:21:23] Again, these are supposed to be lighter conversations where we're talking about. These, unless you have something else you want to talk about in production. No, we can talk about it more as we get into the, um, different story blocks that you've outlined here. I do have one kind of, uh, it's not, is it a regret? I almost wanted to watch. I almost wanted to do like a, a mystery science theater thing with you and watch these live

[00:21:50] because I think there's a, there's a value in, and I miss talking about specific things in the scenes, you know, just some sort of director's cut thing. We're like, Oh, you know, this moment or that, that scene, or that was really clever or wait, that doesn't make any sense. Cause I have, as I'm rewatching these, I have all these thoughts and ideas, but then we're not doing a scene by scene breakdown of these, right? We're talking the, the right concept. So, uh, I don't wonder if there isn't some space for, for doing, doing that.

[00:22:18] I know it's like hard to synchronize our schedules, but look, we will, uh, we'll restart the film festival once we finish it. How about that? Sounds good. Yeah. We'll do it in a completely different format and we'll have a good time. Sounds good. All right, David, let's take a break before we get into the details. We're Teresa and Nemo. And that's why we switched to Shopify.

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[00:23:24] And we're back. So again, I think we've kind of alluded to this on many of our other Star Wars podcasts, but we're going to talk anything that's happened in Star Wars ever. Like this is not, this is not Alicia's podcast, the Star Wars Canon timeline podcast where she's going to shield you from later spoilers here. We are anything that's happened in any published Star Wars piece of media we can talk about. So, um, Hoth is the first thing I want to talk about. Uh, my least favorite part of the movie, I'm just going to say, but the right Rebels, yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:54] It pours the hell out of me. Wow. The entire section. Uh, I often will start this movie and then I, I fall off before Hoth is over. Wow. And so I have to confess the last, the time I watched it for this, I just fast forwarded through Hoth because I've watched it so many times. And then I started basically when they're escaping Hoth and I enjoyed the movie 10 times more. Every time, uh, you know, we come to one of these cultural inflection moments in my, you

[00:24:22] know, I, I have all this esteem for you and we have this long history and, you know, we have this, you know, this deep abiding partnership with the, the, you know, we've thickened through thick and thin. We have been through many things. And then you say some dumb shit like that. What am I doing with this guy? Who is this guy? You know, if I, if it's a wrong opinion, then, then we'll get feedback and that's always good. That's right. That's always good. Everybody write in and tell Johnny's wrong.

[00:24:52] I don't care. Hey, I was wrong. I don't care about your stupid snow. Get me off of Hoth. All right. The rebels have set up a base on Hoth. And after three years, the empire is finally on their tail. Well, Imperial probe droids arrive on the planet. Luke gets captured by a wampa barely escaping with the use of the force. Han finds Luke freezing to death and rescues him in the grossest way possible. Imperial walkers arrived to destroy the rebel base, but Luke and his squadron disable them, allowing a rebel escape.

[00:25:23] So what are, what are your thoughts on this? I think I've, I've ruined this. My thoughts on this. So, uh, go ahead. Uh, so, you know, I was trying to remember, I have some pretty distinct memories of seeing 77 and, and culturally just as things rolled out that year. And, and, and from there, I have to say for, for empire strikes back, I have very,

[00:25:50] very little memory of when I actually saw it and sort of what was there. Because it, you know, it is now entered into that continuum of this is now past Star Wars. Like we're in the post 77 frame, right? And this just stuff. That's how we measure our years now, right? That's right. Yeah. Right. BBY, right. You know, 77, uh, and, and H, you know, is that our new zero one and H?

[00:26:19] Um, and so I, it just kind of just flows. And, uh, I knew we had moved that year. And I think I remember talking with Nicole about this in one of the supply closet bonus episodes for severance was that how memory gets laid down. And if you're under stress, then it doesn't, uh, always, you know, your memories don't get encoded always the same way and stuff like that. That said, I will say that the impressions that I do have of this movie.

[00:26:50] So here we are 77, 78, 79, 80, what three, what four years is it? I think is from, from movie from screening to screening or three plus years. Yeah. This is 1980. So, uh, so 77, 1980, and then 83 is, uh, the other one. So they're all three years apart. So we're waiting and we're waiting and we're waiting and then it arrives. And then we start with this radically different environment. Mm hmm.

[00:27:21] And it was like, oh, you know, we went from the desert sands of Tatooine and the cold, um, uh, you know, metallic, uh, imperial hallways of the death star to, you know, the, the, the jungles of Yavin four, which were just barely there even. And then boom, suddenly we're on this ice planet and it's like, wow, like we can have this in star Wars. We can go to these different places.

[00:27:48] We can go to these planets that have mono environments, right? Where you can crash land and just find the guy that you're looking for because you know, but anyway, you know, that aside, that's the star Wars silliness. If you just let that aside. But you're also like, it is notable that in both of the first two movies, you really don't go to a lot of places. You don't really very contained onto a couple of planets. Exactly. It's only in the prequel trilogy where they're like, yeah, we're in a fucking space diner now, get over it.

[00:28:15] And so, so being on this planet and seeing the rebel base and seeing these different ships and then getting a check in with all of our primary characters, you know, and, and seeing the relation, you know, they're very efficient at telling us what's going on. Luke is now fully part of the rebellion. Leia is, you know, commanding general person, you know, um, Han is still trying to deal with

[00:28:45] his, you know, he's got to get out of here because of his bounty. I love that it's been three years and he's still like, I'm done. I'm done. I'm not really part of you guys. I've just been hanging out a little bit. That's right. Well, he helped him obviously move from Yavin 4 to, you know, to here. And so we, but we get this status check in, uh, where everybody's at and they do that like really efficiently. And that tells us what we need to know going forward for the rest of the story.

[00:29:13] They set up the hyperdrive situation and, um, they set up Luke starting to be able to use the force right when he's reaching out with a, with a lightsaber. Uh, so all of that I think is really efficient storytelling on this new environment with these big stakes like, Oh, can the rebels get out of here? Oh, wow. They're shooting an iron cannon past the transport. That's cool. Right. You know, there's all this stuff that happens. That's a world building.

[00:29:42] That's character development that, um, creates the dramatic tension for the rest of the movie. And, uh, plus we just get a, it's not, you can't really judge it. The battle sequence. You can't really judge the battle sequence against set pieces that we have nowadays because we're right. Right. You know, 30, 40, 50, 60 years on to this stuff right now. And we have different sensibilities, but at the time that was cool as hell.

[00:30:10] I mean, it is super, first of all, completely impractical to have walking like nonsensical, but it's, they're very cool. And, uh, can I interject something too? Is it even more nonsense that the fact that your speeders actually happened to have a rear gunner that just actually happens to have a harpoon? Yes. Why? What is that harpoon good for any other circumstance? No, and they said it's a towing cable. What are you doing?

[00:30:36] No, as in like you attach that to like a star destroyer or that kind of ship and that tows your ship. Okay. But, but at the time that wasn't thought that it's just like, Oh, Hey, we got to games. Great. I actually, I liked that. I thought that that made sense. I thought that made sense. We're just going to disagree about everything on this movie now. Now, now you have me defending Hoth. How dare you? Makes good for makes for good podcasting. Anyway, carry on with your, your, your feeble defense.

[00:31:05] No, I, I, I enjoyed the, I usually don't actually care about when they're, when they're doing like in the gunner seat footage. Like that's actually one of my least favorite star Wars things, which I know that's going to get me hate too, but. I, I did really enjoy the scene. Like I, I enjoyed watching Luke command a squadron. I enjoyed watching, watching him circle these things and like barely get out. His gunner dies. And it's, it's crazy. Like it's, it's very stressful for a minute. If you don't know if he's going to die, like, is he going to die? Right.

[00:31:35] The first time you are, you're doing this and they're, they're taking a beating through this whole thing. Bro takes out a whole Walker on his own, like in a really ingenious way. That kind of just, and again, that's what I'm saying is that we're, it establishes that, uh, Luke is now a competent combatant, right? Yeah. He's, he's actually, you know, he's got some, he's got some skills. He's not just whining about power, power converters anymore. No, he's doing it. He's doing his whole thing.

[00:32:03] So I think, you know, it's, it's a, uh, it's a great encapsulated setup. It introduced us to a new environment and introduced us to new, uh, Imperial troopers, you know, snow troopers and stuff. It, it, uh, set up that portable laser, um, uh, turbo, uh, laser cannon thing that they had, you know, when the Millennium Falcon shoots them with its point defense thing, because remember in 77, we didn't see that. They didn't, or did they have that? And then they got shot.

[00:32:33] No, that's an add in. That's a reedit. Okay. Cause I think they just shoot at them and then they blast off. Hmm. So. Interesting. Did, was there, I didn't really notice a lot of re, uh, uh, uh, fresh. I think when they come into Bespin, that looks really reedited to me. Right. And the Wampum is. Much CGI'd. They added a bunch of stuff. I think that was just cut. Probably. Uh, they added it back, but anything that they added, I didn't really notice. And so that means it's good. Yeah.

[00:33:00] It was much more subtle than in a new hope where it's just like, here are some random aliens walking down the road and then you not blend into the environment. Exactly. Ridiculous. So, so yeah, I think the Hawthing works in terms of tape bringing us, you know, we, the viewers, how many years have we been waiting for this? And then we want to be surprised and delighted and we're surprised and delighted by this new environment.

[00:33:25] And then this battle sequence and then this, you know, um, flute run for your lives. So, oh my God, what's going to happen to the rebellion, the scattering of the, and then the scattering of the fellowship. Yeah. Also Luke doesn't really tell anybody where he's going or that he is going. He's just like, yeah, I'll meet you there. And then he just nopes out. Like. Totally. He's supposed to, he's like the warrior of this rebellion and he's just going to disappear and nobody bats an eye. Right. Exactly. A little sloppy, a little sloppy there. I got to say. Yeah. Luke, not the most steadfast friend.

[00:33:55] And we get some great humor in here too, that are, and the, the humor is embedded in the characters and in what you expect them from the, what you expect from the characters. I'd sooner kiss a Wookiee. That can be arranged. Great line. Totally something Han would say. Yeah. Or Han putting his, his hand over C-3PO's mouth. Yeah. Right. To shut him up when he's, you know, asking about that or the, you know, then other great

[00:34:24] Han lines, you know, oh, your, your best mineral free or your, your tauntaun will freeze before you hit the outer marker. Then I'll see you in hell. Go on an awesome line. Right. Like so good. And this is also the movie that he gets labeled a scoundrel, right? Yes. I believe so. This is where that whole, and like the fact that they basically created an archetype of sci-fi character right there. Like this wasn't, to my knowledge, this was not a thing before Han Solo.

[00:34:52] I think it, if you look back to the Western. Okay. In that tradition, there is this kind of, you know, there is this kind of character who's a bit ragged at the edges, but is ultimately a big guy. But that's like a deep guard and yeah. Yeah. So. All right. All right. So, and this is where Lucas is pulling from a lot of his growing up and what he absorbed in the movies and Westerns were definitely there.

[00:35:19] And obviously he reached out to Japan and, and, you know, had fairy tales and, and fantasy, you know, sort of proto fantasy stuff. Yeah. Dune. This one feels a lot less duty. I will say that. Like they do finally start to do their own thing, which I think is good. Yeah. It's similar. I always say like the first wheel of time book is just the Lord of the rings. And then after that, it becomes its own thing. Right. You almost have to shake off the predecessor. It's, it's kind of like clear it's throat clearing.

[00:35:49] Mm hmm. Like, all right, let me give you all the tropes. Yep. Now let me do something new with it. I'm cleared out. Right. Yeah. It's out of my space and now I can actually start to create and play jazz. Yep. Yeah. Nevermind. And then of course, nevermind the sort of icky outdated gender stereotype. Oh yeah. Lay on and on very bad. Yeah. And, and it sort of reverts back into some more traditional stuff where, where Leah really

[00:36:16] broke some molds, you know, Carrie Fisher was breaking some molds in 77. Then they sort of get her boxed back in and she's a bit more of the fair sex as they might've said back then. I'm just going to put in a blanket. Carrie Fisher was treated terribly by the production and everybody should be embarrassed for that because not great. Not great. They made her lose a lot of weight before the, the return of the Jedi and everyone be nice to Carrie Fisher.

[00:36:44] She's not around anymore, but be nice to her in your memory. Yeah. Oh, one other funny line. I remembered. I thought these things smelled bad on the outside. How good is that? Yeah. How good is that? Good. Right. Screenwriting. When he cuts through the, I did enjoy Han using the lightsaber to do it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And he like saves him in the grossest way possible. As I said, like, I just couldn't believe when he did that. I was like, ugh.

[00:37:10] The, I think of, I've never, I haven't read any of the Star Wars novels, the novelization of Star Wars, but I do remember a reading at least a part of adaptation of the Empire Strikes Back. And I remember the description of Han holding the lightsaber in his hand and how it felt weird and it was vibrating and he like, it's moving his hand around.

[00:37:38] It was like, you know, like whatever the author was describing that. And then contrasting it to the fact that, you know, he's used to a blaster in his hand and he's carrying this new thing. And that is one thing that stands out. And so, I do, I do appreciate that, that little thing because he was so poo-pooing of the lightsabers. Yeah, he was. Oh, that's stupid religion. He looks not a religion. Um, anyway, anyway, why don't we go on to Luke's training? Yes.

[00:38:06] Another iconic scene. Oh, really quickly before you go there too. The, of course with each movie, they have to like go bigger and make something bigger. And of course this is where we get the introduction of the Superstar Destroyer. Hmm. Right. So anyway, but we can come back to that later. Do you know, I, I actually read in somewhere that, uh, the reason you have the second Death

[00:38:32] Star in Return of the Jedi is because Lucas had originally planned for the whole trilogy to be one movie and he destroyed the Death Star in the first one. He's like, fuck, I don't have my Death Star to do the things I wanted to do in the third one. So let's make another one. Make another one. Yeah. Nevermind the economics of building two of those fricking things. Okay. But honestly, I know it's a stupid plot point, but the unfinished Death Star is one of the coolest visuals.

[00:39:00] The fact that they were like, yo, it actually works. Screw you. Ha ha. We were all like, oh, good twist. Yeah, it did work. But of course we're going to talk about that next. So yeah, let's, we'll save it for now. Let's go to Luke's training. Following force ghost Ben Kenobi's instructions, Luke and R2-D2 fly to Dagobah where they find a strange green creature. They learn he is Yoda. The Jedi master Luke is seeking.

[00:39:26] He trains Luke and has Luke confront the dark side of the force where Luke sees himself in Vader's helmet. When Luke sees a vision of his friends in trouble, he disobeys Yoda and leaves to save them. This is such an interesting part of the Skywalker saga in terms of the space opera nature of the larger story that we have here that we sort of segue onto this.

[00:39:56] Yeah. And this is some prime Muppets, Frank Oz, you know, Jim Henson inspired stuff. He was like, this is peak Yoda. Yep. Yep. I love immediately. He's like going into Luke's lunchbox. He's throwing shit out. He's just, he's just really, really going for it right away. And I love his, his silly wise nature. You know what I mean?

[00:40:21] This like this, uh, absent minded professor thing almost going on. But I also think that the moment where he gives Luke the choice of like, finish your training or go see your friends, go save your friends. That is one of the most important moments in the entire trilogy or maybe all of Star Wars. Yep. Because there is a debate to this day of knowing what we know with the sequel trilogy was Yoda, right?

[00:40:52] Mm-hmm. Did Luke's failure to complete his training lead to his failure to teach Ben Kenobi? Mm-hmm. Ben, Ben Solo. I'm sorry. Right. Um, and did, did that lead to his failure as a, as a teacher or was Luke right? And this is a flaw of the Jedi that they are so anti attachment that they can't see that like saving your friends is part of the light. Like you need to have that to be part of the light. Mm-hmm. And I think it's both. Mm-hmm. I think it's both.

[00:41:21] I think Luke needed more training. Uh, Yoda didn't have to go die like that. And, uh, and I think that he, he, he was right. He was right. And he called out the Jedi. And that's part of why I really loved the last Jedi is that we bring back this theme of like the Jedi were so obsessed with being right that they didn't always do the right thing. Mm-hmm.

[00:41:46] And, and that's why this scene like screams out to me like this is such an important scene. So I'm going to cross pods here really quick. Uh, I'm going to cross the streams and did you see Conclave? No, but I, I have it loaded up. I'm, I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to make you. Ah, shit. I don't know if I can talk about the thing that I want to talk about. It's okay. You could spoil it for me.

[00:42:13] Uh, I definitely won't spoil the movie, but what I, I will say is something that, that we can pluck from that movie without talking about the plot of the, the specific plot of the movie. But this is, this goes into the meaning of the movie, but, but aside from the plot, this concept, there's a concept, the concept of certainty. I am certain of the truth. That's in the trailer. Okay. Yeah. Uh, I didn't, I don't know that I saw the trailer. I think I just wouldn't saw it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:41] No, this whole thing about like certainty being the enemy of faith. Yes. That's in the trailer. Right. And that's the thing about the Jedi is that they're certain. Yeah. They're certain that their way is the right way. They're certain that their counsel is the wisest counsel. Yep. They're certain that they know everything about the force that they need to. Uh, I hope Marilyn listens to this because I want to hear some feedback from her about the, the, the crossing of the streams of conclave and star Wars. Yeah.

[00:43:11] But the, I think that the, and this is where there is this level of sophistication that's happening at least in this movie is that we're now getting into something that is very substantial, which is, oh, the Jedi aren't, aren't just the shining knights who win at the end of the day and good triumphs and all that, blah, blah, blah. And that, and I think this is something that Tolkien deals with, right?

[00:43:41] Is the, the moral injury that war causes individuals when you have to make these really shitty choices. Yep. Uh, on, you know, uh, fighting your enemy and, or, you know, and in this case, you know, good versus evil and the sacrifices that that causes and the choices that we as individuals have, uh, who are fighting in that conflict have to make and how that affects us. And, and maybe you could say, well, what's the outcome? I don't know. What was, what is the outcome?

[00:44:10] The outcome is the outcome as the writers wrote it. But I think the interesting thing is, is that Luke is morally injured in some way because he's, he's cut his training early. Mm-hmm. And he did go to save his friends, but, you know, but he still injured himself in some way because he didn't complete what he needed to complete. And now he doesn't have a superstructure to guide him after the fact, right?

[00:44:36] He's now, he's now a rogue Jedi out there in some ways where he's got this incomplete training. And then he tries to think that he can take on setting up a school and training all these other Jedis. And now that imperfection, that flaw is now embedded in his teaching and is going to flow out from him. Um, but then is the whole system flawed to begin with? Is the Jedi system flawed to begin with? I think it's a really interesting moral question. I think so too.

[00:45:04] You, you're throwing around this term moral injury. I want to see how familiar are, are you with that usage in psychology? I am familiar in a general cultural conversation sense of specifically in post, in a post 9-11 conflict world where, um,

[00:45:27] um, good meaning people signed up to, you know, try to quote unquote defend, you know, America and, and other things. And went over and then in the name of goodness did things that weren't good. And then they then are now left with those, the, the results of their actions. So moral injury, I've, I've written a paper about this. That's why I'm. Wow. I'm reading this up. Okay.

[00:45:55] I think you need to, Nicole need to get on a pod and talk about this. Perhaps, perhaps. And so I quoted Carol Gilligan who did a paper on, who did another paper on Jonathan Shea. Uh, Jonathan Shea had this theory of moral injury and this is how she summarized it. A shattering of trust that followed the betrayal of what's right in a high stakes situation where the betrayal was sanctioned by someone in a position of legitimate authority.

[00:46:22] I think I, I think I described it accurately relative to. That's why I was like, how familiar are you? Just as part of the cultural conversation, because when I was a teenager and we're living in the post Vietnam era, we didn't have a word for it, but we could feel it. And it was in the literature and it was in the movies and it was all around us. And it was this thing. Yes. And now we have a word for it.

[00:46:45] Now, just like PTSD, we now have an understanding, not only a word for it, we had shell shock before that, but now we had, you know, a more clinical definition. And then we now actually have a, you know, neurophysiological understanding of what PTSD is really going on. Right. And so moral, moral injury. Now we understand as well. We have a word for it now. Right. Well, Jonathan Shea was writing about veterans. Yeah. When he was talking about this. Right, right, right. Carol Gilligan, what she does is she takes it a little bit further and says, this isn't just something that happens to veterans.

[00:47:14] This is something that happens to everyone. Correct. You know, your parents can give you a moral injury. Right. Your government can give you a moral injury. All these things. And so here, I think absolutely, and this is combined with the Vader scene later, Obi-Wan really gives Luke a moral injury here. And you could absolutely see. Sounds like a blog post. Can you try a blog post? I know I should.

[00:47:40] But you could absolutely see Luke getting into the dark side as a defense. Because patriarchy is used as often as a coping mechanism to avoid the pain, to delay the pain, to distance yourself from the pain of moral injury, to prevent yourself from feeling that. Okay. And talk about patriarchy. Let's rule the galaxy as father and son. The ultimate patriarchy. My God. I mean, come on.

[00:48:10] So I think this is absolutely like seven layers deep in feeling something real from this fantasy story. Yeah. And that's why this movie works so much better than any of the other ones, is it just gets to something deep in psychology, I think. At the same time, you have this lovely icing on the cake of imperial walkers and star destroyers. Right. And, you know, blaster fights.

[00:48:39] And then underneath it is something of substance. Yeah. And Luke is like hanging upside down while he's having his moral injury. So, like, you know, it's a whole thing with that. Well, I was going to get into the whole Luke confronting himself in the cave. Yeah, yeah. Go for it. And, you know, I think we've brought it up multiple times with other shows. I can't even keep – I don't even know which ones we have. I just have a memory of it being brought up. I'm sure we've talked about it, yeah. Multiple times.

[00:49:08] Oh, yeah, that's Luke in the cave. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I think that was also just taking these flash memories and more impressions than actual memories. But being a kid at that age and being all of 11 years old and going, WTF? Like, why is Luke's face in Vader's helmet?

[00:49:37] And then, of course, afterwards, we're like, oh, it's because he's really his son. And like, oh, okay, that all makes sense, right? You know what I'm saying? But it's like, no, it's actually a lot more complex than that. Yeah, it's about – I don't want to be like him. Right. And it's about confronting yourself, right? You know, you contain the seeds of your own downfall. Right. Right. The evil is not outside of you. It's inside of you as well.

[00:50:04] And you have to be able to, like Ged in Ursi, you know, you have to figure out how to heal yourself of that nature. You're going to love Willa time this season. Really? You're going to love Willa time. Okay. Are they ripping off Ursula and Kayla Gwynn? I don't want to get in trouble. Everybody rips off everybody. That's right. That's fair. That's really where we're at now. I was just throwing a little bit of – a little shade at the Wheel of Time, folks. It's in good fun, Wheel of Time people.

[00:50:34] Don't at me. It's all good. It's all good. So, now that we're done slandering the Wheel of Time, I just want to ask you, like – I'm so glad you said you were going to cover it. Yoda. Yes. What was your experience being a kid and introduced to Yoda for the first time when he's just coming into play? Boy, I'm trying to remember if I remember anything. Because, again, he's just embedded in our psychologies now.

[00:51:03] And it's like, was there a time before Yoda? I guess there was. Yeah, like so many of these things that are iconically Star Wars don't show up until Empire. Boom. Huge, right? And, you know, there is no try, right? That's a big one. And the whole sort of backwards speak of him. Of course, we had grown up with the Muppets and Jim Henson and all this stuff.

[00:51:29] So, it wasn't out of the realm of what we were to experience. I think – so, I don't remember what my impressions were at the time. I will say what I noticed this time watching it was how deftly this script is at one time very unique in doing its own thing.

[00:51:55] But at the same time, recycling mechanics and visuals from the first movie. So, here we have this, you know, weird old aesthetic living out on the fringes of society. In this little domed hut kind of thing. And, oh, Ben Kenobi, Obi-Wan Kenobi, right? Oh, you know, this little green guy. And, oh, yeah, it turns out to be, right? So, this duplicitous nature of these Jedi in hiding.

[00:52:23] So, they really – even with R2 getting swallowed by whatever that swamp monster is and spitting him out. You know, that was the – I love what R2 screams. Can I just say that? Yes, he's great. It's like one of my favorite noises when he goes – Or the little comedic beat when he, like, burps out all the mud, right? Yeah. All the mud liquid. They – this movie understands how to use comedy in a dramatic setting so well.

[00:52:49] Anyway, so I think it's more what I was taken by was more with the paralleling Obi-Wan and Yoda together in, you know, in their forms of how they're existing and how Luke comes across them. So, I think that's interesting. But Yoda is a creature? Yeah, I don't know. We just accepted him because Muppets. Yeah. All right. All right.

[00:53:16] I mean, we watched – you know, the Muppets was like appointment television watching. Interesting. You know, it was like, I think Sunday at 7 or something like that, and it was always paired with something else. But, yeah, like, we sat down and we watched the Muppets, right? In Sesame Street, right? It was also a very big deal for us. So, yeah. I was never a Muppets kid. Right. So, that's why I was like, oh, that's interesting. He's here. Oh, man. My daughter has discovered SpongeBob.

[00:53:43] So, my daughter had a friend over today because they were out of school, that teacher training day, blah, blah, blah. And they were watching Bluey. And I was like, oh, so cute. It's Bluey. But she's also discovered they played at school. Our daughter is notorious for not liking dramatic movies. She loves documentaries and stuff like that. She's into cartoons and all kinds of other stuff. But there's a certain amount of – there's a certain kind of dramatic tension that really affects her, right? And so, trying to get her exposed to other things is sometimes hard.

[00:54:12] So, one day, she starts talking about Totoro, my neighbor Totoro. And we're like, what the hell? And apparently, they played it at school and she liked it. And today, today, in fact, she was watching it before dinner. And I came upstairs and she's like, oh, yeah, Totoro is this. She's explaining the movie to me. And I'm like – Nice. My heart was like, oh. There's a bunch of Ghibli movies that I think would be good for that age group. Like, I wouldn't show her Spirited Away. That's too dark. Right. But, like, you get – I think Howl's Moving Castle is okay.

[00:54:41] But even better than that would be The Cat Returns. Okay. Very lighthearted. Lady gets turned into a cat. The door is open now for Ghibli, right? So, she's like – she understands that there's this thing. And I was telling her, I'm like, oh, yeah, this is one of the biggest, you know, blah, blah, blah. Like, I was like trying to, like, talk it up a little bit so that she, you know, knows that she can start to explore some. It's such a good movie, My Neighbor Totoro. And we did that for one of our first – We did. Second Breakfast, Elevensies. So many years ago. And we didn't call Elevensies. Yeah. All those years ago.

[00:55:12] Anything else about Dagobah? I don't think so. I think we'll talk more about the twist when we get to Vader. Why don't we talk about that right after we get back from a break?

[00:55:43] And we're back. All right. So, I said that we were going to talk about Vader, but we have a whole other section first. Bespin. After narrowly escaping both the Empire and a giant asteroid worm, Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and C-3PO go to Bespin, which is currently ruled by Han's old frenemy, Lando Calrissian. While Lando welcomes them, he secretly betrayed them to Darth Vader, who occupied Bespin before Han could get there.

[00:56:11] Han is frozen in carbonite and taken to Jabba the Hutt by Boba Fett, and the other three escape on the Millennium Falcon with Lando. So, it was, can I just say, amazing that they think they got away, and Boba Fett's like, yeah, I knew exactly what the fuck you were doing. Which sets up his credit for being one of the best bounty hunters in the galaxy, right? Yeah. I mean, look, I am not a Boba Fett superfan. I think he's fine. Right.

[00:56:39] I think Rebels ruined him for me because, not Rebels, Clone Wars. Clone Wars ruined him for me because he's a whiny kid in Clone Wars. Okay. Which you understand why he hates the Jedi. He watched his dad get killed by Mace Windu. Mm-hmm. Right. But still, I'm like, you're really freaking whiny. This is one of the reasons why I don't like them recycling these characters throughout time, these familiar things.

[00:57:06] Like, why did you have to have C-3PO and R2 from back in the day? You know? It depends on the usage. Like, they have Tarkin as an admiral, I think it is, in Clone Wars. Well, that makes sense, right? Because the dude's going to be, yeah. And they develop the relationship between him and Anakin, where he hates the Jedi. He's really disdainful of the Jedi, but he's like, that Anakin guy, I like his style. I like how he's really rough and tumble, like, we'll go right in and get the job done. You're like, oh, that sets up their relationship later, right?

[00:57:35] Obviously, yeah, exactly. I like that. So, they do it well sometimes, and I love the development of Palpatine and all that. Sometimes, they just don't hit with it, but that's okay. And you don't need to always do that, right? You know? Yeah. It doesn't, anyway. But yeah, I think Boba Fett, because this is the introduction of Boba Fett, too, is, he's just this mysterious badass, right? Right.

[00:57:59] And again, coming out of the Western tradition of spaghetti Westerns and whatnot, he's this silent force that's to be reckoned with. Did you ever see No Country for Old Men? No. Okay. There's a great character in there, Anton Chigurh, who's just this force of nature. Such a good movie. God, I love that movie. It's disturbing, but it's so good.

[00:58:27] But this idea that here's this person who can just operate at this other level and does. Like, oh, yeah, you're going to hide in the garbage thing? All right, I got you. Right, exactly. I'll just stay here for another movie. Yeah. Oh, which way are you going? Oh, Bespin? Oh, okay. I'm going to get out in front of you. I'm going to radio ahead, and I'm going to get this all set up. That's just badass, you know? And then for him to die so ignobly in the next movie, but we'll save it for then. Well, he doesn't die, though, right? No, he doesn't die, but that's a retcon, right?

[00:58:56] Well, we got feedback on that, by the way. We talked about this on one of, I think, our Mandalorian podcast, because we had said it. And we got a big thing of feedback about Boba Fett was never dead. Nobody thought he was dead. We all were fine with him being alive. And so I guess, I think in the novelizations, he was alive, too. Okay, all right. So I think that was just a debatable thing. I always read it as he died. Yeah, so did we. Who cares? Who cares? But anyway, we need to talk about giant...

[00:59:26] Nobody's dead until you see the body in Star Wars. That's right. That's right. Even when you see the body, sometimes they're not dead. It doesn't mean anything, right? But more importantly, we need to just talk about giant space worms. What is that about? I don't know. Just live it on an asteroid? Yeah, exactly. Well, then again, we have space whales, too, just noping out. Right, exactly. So just go with it, man. But what did blow our minds was seeing the TIE fighter bombers. That was cool, right? Like, whoa, different TIE fighter design.

[00:59:54] Because up until that point, we had Vader's TIE fighter and then the standard TIE fighter. And then now that we had a bomber, we're like, oh, my God. Like, so cool. Again, this movie is just pushing the boundaries of world building without having to push the boundaries, right? They're just like, oh, yeah, we have this, there's that. Of course, there's these things over here. And the way that they continue to deliver it so matter-of-factly and just treat us, you know, treat the observers without having to explain everything.

[01:00:24] They're just like, yeah, no, this is the world. And we're like, oh, this is great. Like, more. Yeah, yeah. And by the way, we've had this renaissance the last few years of like Star Wars fighter games, like space fighter games. There's a game called Star Wars Squadron. You can like choose which ship you want on each side. You can customize them. It's so good. And I'm glad that we're having this renaissance because the ship design is one of the coolest things in all of us. What was it?

[01:00:50] There was one video game that we played a lot that... Battlefront was big for a while. Yeah, no, it wasn't Battlefront. Let's see if I can find it. Anyway, it was basically, you know, your flying missions and chasing it. And you sort of, it was in the, God, it was in the late 90s when it came out. So it wasn't a very sophisticated game, but played a lot of it. There's been a ton of Star Wars games. Yeah.

[01:01:20] Overall. Was it X-Wing? Star Wars X-Wing? There were a bunch of like similar games like that. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Anyway. Right. Atmospheric, of course, atmospheric combat in zero gravity. Sure. Yep. Okay. You know. You know what? We're having fun. We were. We played the shit out of that game. Exactly. Exactly. And I played a ton of Battlefront when that was out. Right. There was a version when I was a kid, which was the better version.

[01:01:49] And then they did a remake that was not as good in like the late 2010s. And I played the crap out of that too. Anyway. Yeah. Bespin. Very cool design of the city. The color, the use of color, I think is another thing that sets this movie apart. You know, especially when Luke and Vader are in the carbonite freezing area with that orange and the blue. And then seeing the different design of the corridors and hallways on Bespin.

[01:02:20] Lobot, you know, he was cool as hell. Have you ever seen the Key and Peele skit about Lando Calrissian? No. Oh my God. It's so hilarious. I gotta watch it now. I do like Key and Peele. Oh, it's so good. It's one of the best. Yeah. But again, you know, and Camtonos and all that stuff. But my favorite, I think if you asked me for a standout scene, right? Obviously, there's a couple of them.

[01:02:50] Luke, I'm your father, blah, blah, blah. But for whatever reason, when Lando takes them into the dining room and they see Vader, it's such a confronting scene because you're not expecting it. And he's this black silhouette against this beautiful, elegant white room. And so there's this sense of menace. And then Lan, Han is so quick on the draw. He's like, whoa.

[01:03:18] You know, and he's got his gun out and he's blasting. He's blasting so fast that Vader can't pull his gun out of his hand before he's already pulling the trigger. So he's got to do the old hand block. And then we were like, whoa, hand block, laser bolts. Right. And it was just such a short, violent, intense action scene with this just sense of dread that just drops down behind you when the door closes. Beautiful scene. Perfectly set up.

[01:03:48] Big surprise. Great sort of jump scare and like, oh, my God. And yeah, it's one of my favorite scenes that really sticks out to me out of the entire. It is a great scene. You're right. The visual contrast is great. This twist of like, you know, he keeps saying, I can't, you know, I don't trust him, but he's a good guy. He's not going to do anything wrong. And then it's like, oh, no, he will be self-interested when he needs to be. Right. Which in the end, honestly, Lando handled it pretty well. Like he did.

[01:04:18] He got them out of there. Yep. He made sure that Han wasn't killed. Right. It's like pretty good for being completely overtaken by the Empire. Yeah. Yeah, because they got there ahead of him. And he can't compete with Vader. What's he going to do? Right. So the only thing he could do was trickery. Right. And that's what he did. And he did it very well, actually. Right.

[01:04:42] Even the end while being sort of seated your pants scoundrel just like Han. Right. Right. Oh, and I love the line where they're trying to take off and the hyperdrive's not working. And he's like, it's not my fault. And the same line that Han. So like you get this nice connecting of the two characters. And just when he goes, you know, what'd you do to my ship? It's not your ship. I want it fair and square. Right. Again, setting up more lore and world building.

[01:05:11] And I, you know, knowing what we now have in Solo. Right. I really enjoyed when they had that scene. When, you know, you have Han figuring out that Lando's cheating. And so he takes the cheating card away. And that's how he wins. He stole the cheating sleeve card. It's like a perfect way to like steal your way into righteousness. Yep. And that's Han Solo, right? Like he's a scoundrel, but he's doing the right thing in the end.

[01:05:40] He's good despite himself. Yeah. Right. His nature is good and he can't help but be good. Right. Anyway, I mean, carbonite, cool stuff. So I'm confused about something. And I, I, I'm wondering if there's some sort of inconsistency because they're a lot, they said, Lando says to him, he's like, we don't freeze people in this stuff. This is dangerous. Mm-hmm.

[01:06:06] But then later in later things, there's, you know, in, in, in the Mandalorian. Yep. Even in Andor, we see, you know, carbonite frozen stuff. Is it, it's suddenly like, oh no, it's just a known fact that we carbonate. Carbonite frees people all the time. But in this movie, it was introduced to us as, whoa, that's a, maybe, yeah, it will, you know, keep them alive if they survive it.

[01:06:35] And is it just because on Bespin, the, the, the, that particular facility was a cargo carbonite freezing facility? Yeah. I read it as, this is something that is known to be a thing you can do, but this is calibrated for like industrial, not humans, not, not human. Okay. So that's what I read it as. And that's why he's like, I don't know if this is calibrated. Right. Right. And they're like, all right, cool. Test it on your friend.

[01:07:05] Also, Vitor, that's not how science works. You don't do one shot and then you're like, it's fine now. Well, I survived. So it's fine. Now. Eat some cereal, John. Eat some cereal. He's, he's, he's got anti-vaxxer energy here. Right. Oh, Vader. Oh, Vader. He just, but that's the thing is like, I actually do believe that Vader would be like, yeah, all right. Seems safe enough. I know it's my son, but I just need to get this done. And that's how I'm going to keep him, keep him on the ice.

[01:07:35] Well, as I think it's a good segue, right. Is, is this question of, yeah, he's my son, but he's also, you know, he's either going to join me, kill me, or I kill him. Right. Right. Do you want to talk about the showdown? I was going to say, I was setting you up. All right. All right. All right. All right. Luke walks into Vader's trap and duels him, getting a few hits in before losing his hand and his lightsaber. Vader reveals that he is Luke's father and invites him to rule the galaxy as father and son.

[01:08:03] Instead of joining Vader, Luke leaps down a chute, psychically calls Leia and escapes with the rebels. He's given a new robotic hand and the team vows to regroup on Tatooine to find Han. So this, you know, getting back into this moral injury territory as well, right? This idea that what's happening to Vader inside of all of this, it's his son, right?

[01:08:32] And his emperor is, his emperor would be fine if Luke killed Vader and then took, and then Luke took his father's place. If Vader kills Luke, then the threat is eliminated. Or the emperor would even be happy if Luke and Vader joined forces because then they would be, you know, then his, even though they'd have to dispose of the emperor, they'd even

[01:09:01] be more powerful than the emperor now. And so the emperor sort of still wins in spirit, right? I don't, I don't agree with that. Actually. I think the emperor wants to live forever. Okay. The emperor has a lot of gave you that thought. Well, no, but like even before the last movie, even before the necromancer thing, like the emperor has put in a lot of legwork to make sure that he like, even if you go into legends, which, you know, at the time, I guess that's probably what was more in George Lucas's head. Cause that's what ends up coming out after this.

[01:09:31] The emperor is like working on like consciousness transfer. Like that's the way of the Sith is like, I want to live forever. Right. And, and the Sith are always overthrowing each other. They are, but he wanted to stop the rule of two. Like that was his, he paid lip service to this. He paid lip service to the rule of two, but he had. Uh, oh, because he, he had multiple people. Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. He was always breaking the rule of two. Okay.

[01:10:01] And so he, he didn't give, he didn't care at all. He, he, he saw himself as the answer to the Sith. The ultimate. Yes. He was the culmination of thousands of years of Sith planning from Darth Bane to him. Okay. Because Darth Bane is the one in legends. And this is like, this is the kind of legends where like, it's so like ingrained. In the culture that I think it kind of has to become Canada. Eventually. And Darth Bane is acknowledged as a kind of character.

[01:10:29] Just his storyline has not been taken into Canada. Darth Bane. At the time he joins the Sith, the Sith is like a legion of dark side users. Mm hmm. And he literally kills every other Sith and takes on an apprentice and says, you and me, we are the rule of two. Wow. Okay. And we are going to succeed. He's like, we're never going to beat the Jedi in a war. Mm hmm. We're going to succeed by taking them down in the most insidious way possible. Right. Inside out. Mm hmm. And so. Hail Hydra.

[01:10:58] And so, exactly. And so, Sidious sees himself as the answer to this prophecy, the answer to this generations long plan. And so, I don't think he would be happy to have Vader overthrow him. He sees Vader as his weapon, not as his successor. I respectfully withdraw my argument. That's fine. That's fine. I think you can make a valid argument with that too, but I think. Because the Sith would win in a way though, right? You know, I mean, his plan would. They would, but you know, they would be a very powerful force, even if he.

[01:11:29] Right. If they deposed the Emperor. I think that. Because the Emperor even says, doesn't even the Emperor say like, strike me down and then take my place? When he's fighting him in the next movie? Well, we'll have to wait and see. I. Does he? Yeah, I think so. Maybe he does. But. Tune in next episode. I don't. I don't. Even if he said that, I don't think he means it. Do you know what I mean? Or maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. He's trying to. He's trying to. He's trying to goad Luke. He's trying to get him to the dark side.

[01:11:56] I think he sees Vader as damaged goods. And he wants to replace him as an apprentice. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. That. That. That makes sense. Luke is who he wanted. Luke is the Anakin dream he had. Right. When he first made him Vader. Right. Before his limbs got cut off. Before he. He became this like. Walking robot. Right. Right. Who is morally injured. Right. Who is deeply, deeply broken. Right. But I think that's the interesting thing. In this movie is. Now we begin the trajectory.

[01:12:26] The arc of. Luke rehabilitating his father. Creating a space where his father can feel grace. Mm-hmm. And. Save himself. By saving his son. I think there's a. There's a. You know. Not to be. You know. Concurrent on politics. But something that happened a number of years ago. Where. A particular political leader. Was meeting the Pope. And the Pope. Didn't say. Oh. I will pray for you. My son. The Pope said to this political leader. Who is.

[01:12:55] A problematic leader at the time. He said. Pray for me. And he. He. And that changed that guy. To the point that that guy. Like. Resigned his position. And. John Boehner. Who was the speaker of the house. Oh. Uh. Because. He had a crisis of faith. It's. And that's not to say. He became like an angel later on. Whatever. I mean. Whatever. But he. You know. When. When the Pope said. You know.

[01:13:25] I need you. You. What. What's inside of you. There is goodness inside of you. God is inside of you. And if you activate that part of you. It will transform you. It will change you. And so. You know. Luke is creating a space for. For Vader. To. Seek grace within himself. So you like conclave. Huh? I'm hanging out with Anthony. In Maryland too much. Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. I. I think that's right. I.

[01:13:55] I think. Anakin had. Sorry. Vader had killed off Anakin. In his mind. Right. Until. He found out that there was a piece of Padme. Out there. Right. And then he. Goes. Oh. Maybe I should reflect on the last 30 years. What's even crazier. Okay. I'm going to cross the streams again. Severance. Tolstoy. I just listened to the audio version of the death of. Ivan. Ivan. Ivan Ilyich or whatever.

[01:14:25] Yeah. And that whole story is about a man who within his dying days. Confronts. The worth of his life. And that he's. You know seeing that the pain that he's suffering at the end of his days. Was. Because he's been living an illusion his whole life. And he's been doing things for the wrong reasons. Mm-hmm.

[01:14:50] And once he's able to understand and recalibrate and rebalance it. He's actually able to let go. And let go of his pain. Yeah. Well that's beautiful. By the way. I. Would. From. For severance coverage. I would highly recommend that you. Either speed read it or I can. Hook you up with an audio copy. All right. I'm going to. I'm going to check this out. That sounds good. I've been meaning to get into Tolstoy for a while.

[01:15:19] But most of his stuff is so long. That I'm like. What am I going to fit this in? You know. I listened to it in an afternoon. We were moving our daughter's bedroom. And I had a bunch of. Handyman dad. You know. Honeydew stuff to do. And I just put it on. And I listened to it. In. You know. Half a day. I think. Nice. All right. Kind of stopping and starting. Sounds good. The thing with the Tolstoy stuff is. There's a long setup. And then it culminates right at the end. Yeah. But the setup. If you think about it contextually.

[01:15:49] The setup is to work the reader through. Where. You know. We can jump start that conversation a little bit faster. But with the long setup. It's the idea is that. It really impacts you in the moment of. Confronting the. You know. What. Ivan Ilyich confronts. Right. So. All right. It's good. It's really good. It's a. It was. It was a really enjoyable listen. All right. Well. I'm going to check that out. So. Thank you. We crossed the streams multiple times today. Stop saying crossing streams.

[01:16:18] It sounds like we're peeing in the same bathroom. Sorry. I'm thinking. Ghostbusters. It's Ghostbusters. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm thinking Spaceballs now where the. You know. They twist the. Okay. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of. Speaking of. That's a good segue. Instead of. Instead of covering. Return of the Jedi next month. We are going to be covering Spaceballs. It'll come out on April Fool's Day. Perfect. We'll have a really good time with that.

[01:16:48] So everybody. Go get your copy of Spaceballs. And watch it. If you have. Feedback on Spaceballs. Send it in. Starwars at thelorehounds.com. It'll be a lot of fun. I think. Mel Brooks is a master. And then we'll return. The Jedi. The next month. All right. Well. Any. Yeah. I think. Yeah. I don't know. It's. It was one of the most. You know. Culturally impactful. Moments that generated from. Entertainment. You know. On screen entertainment.

[01:17:17] In the history of. Film. Maybe. Yeah. And I think. Honestly. I had so much more fun talking about this. Than I did a new hope. Because I think that there was just more meat here. Yeah. Like a new hope is all. To me. It's much more flash. Than it is substance. And. And you know. That's amazing for the time it's in. But today watching it. Empire. Holds up much more on a story level. Totally. Which is what interests me a lot more. I mean. Star Wars in a lot of ways. Is just a fairy tale. Right. They're rescuing the princess from the dragon. You know.

[01:17:47] From the. From the dragon's clutches. Is. Well. We did not do that. Actually. We did do that. This. This. This one. Lando actually saved. The princess from the dragon this time. True. All right. Quick programming. Quick. This is going to come out. Um. The. Do we have. Middle of the month. No feedback? Uh. I don't believe we have feedback for this. Okay. No. Nobody's writing in about the Star Wars stuff right now. I think people were on the discord talking about it. Ah. Okay.

[01:18:17] This is coming out on the 17th. So. Uh. The 17th of March. So. We'll be. Doing severance. The finale. That month. That week. That'll be a lot of fun. Um. Wheel of time. Is going to be on episode four that week. Okay. Will be. So. You'll have already seen episodes one through three. I've seen episode one right now. But I can't say anything about it. Because. The embargo is not up. I don't even ask you what your.

[01:18:47] What the vibes are. I think we're going to have fun. I'm just going to have you say nothing. That's all I'm going to say. Actually. This will be out after embargo. So I'm going to say. Uh. We're going to have fun. It's going to be a real fun season everybody. Nice. That's it. That's awesome. So. Uh. Yeah. What else is going on? We just finished Oscars coverage. But that's kind of long gone by now. We did a White Lotus mid-season check-in by now. We will have done. I got to go back. Oh. I got to watch that tonight actually. I haven't watched any of the episodes. I have to catch up now. But I will before. Before next week.

[01:19:18] Yeah. Because Oscars supplanted it last night. So. I've been reading a lot actually. I've been. I've been not watching a lot of TV. Okay. Having fun. I've done 26 books this year so far. Ooh. You're on fire. Wait. It's 25. It's like large. Ah. You're fine. You're fine. Yeah. You're. That's why I haven't been watching anything. That's the problem. I was grinding my way through the death of even Iliad and what have you. And I don't have the name properly in my head now. And so. Don't at me.

[01:19:47] I was like. F this man. I got. There's no way I'm going to get through this in time. You know. To make for the next episode. So I'm like. Give me an audio book. Yeah. I hear you. In there. I hear you. Yeah. It's. I just. You know. I. Basically. Like. If I. If I put myself to it. I can read a lot. In a short amount of time. Nice. But if I. If not. Like last year. I only read like 40 books a whole year. Um. And then this year. I've just been more into it. So that's. That's what I do. I cycle through hobbies. Anyway. That is completely. Beside the point.

[01:20:17] It is. Let's. Let's talk about what else. We're doing a Dune 1984 coverage. That's coming out next week. It looks like on the calendar. Um. And then. Are we scheduled for recording for that? We have not scheduled a recording yet. So we got to do that. Um. And then. The 31st. I'm going to have another Silmarillion story drop. And that's going to be a Baron and Luthien. I know people have been waiting a lot for that one. I have Silmarillion coming on. Cool. That. Uh. Our affiliates. Radioactive Ramblings. Covering. Invincible. Season two. Season three. Are they on season three now?

[01:20:47] I think so. I think it's season three. Right? I don't know. So. Go check that out. If you watch Invincible. You'll know what season you're on. You can check out their coverage. Uh. Nevermind the music. Of course. Covering music and psychology together. All in one package. Love the podcast. And you will have heard them on some of our Severance subscriber pods too. So. Go over there and check it out. I'm not sure what Alicia's going to be doing at this time. On Wolf Shift Dust and Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast.

[01:21:15] But make sure you go and subscribe to those so you get all her new podcasts. And Rings and Rituals if you want more Tolkien. And you want to just get into the backlog. You can go listen to Marilyn and Sarah's coverage of Rings of Power season one. Properly Howard too. Yeah. They're on break. But I think Anthony said something about they may throw something out. Kind of a mid-season thing in advance of their next season. Okay. Which I think is going to be a Kevin Spacey theme. No, not Kevin Spacey.

[01:21:45] What's a Footloose? God, my brain is mushed today. I have no idea what you're talking about. I am mushed. Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon. Okay. I was going to say, I hope it's not Kevin Spacey. We don't like him anymore. I know. That's just what came out. I don't know what I'm saying. Did you see John? I'm looking at John Lithgow now on this cast list for Footloose. Did you see his reaction to the Emilia Perez singing on stage?

[01:22:15] No. He looked like he was dying inside. Okay. He was like, oh my. He let out a big sigh. And I was like, I'm with you, John Lithgow. Yeah. Invincible is season three. So. Did you hear he's also going to play Dumbledore in the new Harry Potter series? I have not paid any attention to any Harry Potter. I've not been seeking it out, but it showed up in my news feed. I was like, oh. That's interesting. It was, you know, I'm not.

[01:22:41] It's Harry Potter was just behind me. So. It was my generation. Absolutely. I used to use pencils and pretend it was a wand and duel my friends in the lunchroom. At the same time, I don't really want to go near the show at this point in my life. Right, right, right. But. For other reasons. It was a gateway into fantasy for me. And that's what I'll remember it as. Fair enough. You want to do the thank yous? Sure. I can do that.

[01:23:11] Oh, check you out. Got some synth wave here. Oh, yeah. To our Discord server boosters. Aaron K. Teller of the Thriller. Dork of the Ninjas. Doove 71. Athena Agilea. Tina. Lestu. Nancy M. Ghost of Perdition. And Radioactive Richard. They all donate their Nitro Bits from Discord to the community. It's not for us. John and Alicia and I. It's for you. It makes a better place for us. More functional server.

[01:23:41] So thank you for supporting your community. We really appreciate it. To our Lore Masters, who also do directly support us, which supports everyone. Samarshan. Michael G. Michelle E. Brian P. SC. Peter O. H. Bettina W. Adam S. Nancy M. Doove 71. Brian 8063. Also known as Usul. Frederick H. Sarah L. Gareth C. Matthew M. Sarah M. DJ Miwa. Andra B. Kwong Yu.

[01:24:11] Dead Eye Jedi Bob. Nathan T. Alex V. Sub Zero. Aaron K. Dally V. Mothership 61. Gnarls. Kathy W. Lestu. Jeffrey B. Elisa U. Neil F. Ben B. Scott F. Steven N. Julia F. Kali S. Ilmaril. And lost, but never forgotten, Adrian. We miss you. We'll find you eventually.

[01:24:39] Also, I think it's Ilmariel. I think it's very Tolkien. Ilmariel. Thank you. It's very Tolkien, this one. It is very Tolkien. I was digging this music. Yeah, it's very cool. You should get some 80s synth pop. This was a nice one. This was a nice one. That's right. All right, everyone. This has been fun. Join us for Spaceballs next month. And don't be an asshole. Sorry. A podcast that's under an hour and a half long, John. What's happened to us? I just want to say that if you think that I just called you an asshole, watch Spaceballs. It's a joke in there. I promise. I didn't call you an asshole.

[01:25:10] All right. Good night, everybody. Okay. The Lorehounds Podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash thelorehounds. And connect with us on Twitter at thelorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening.

[01:25:45] Think of a song you really love. Don't you want to know why you love it so much? Well, we can't answer that. No, but we can deep dive into it anyway. Unless we get too sidetracked. We're the Nevermind the Music Podcast. One musician. And one psychologist. Talking about iconic songs. The musical tricks that blow our minds. And what they show us about our minds. Join us each week as we pick apart everything from TLC to Weezer. And from Billie Eilish to Bruno Mars. With plenty of distractions in between. Check out Nevermind the Music.

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