The Acolyte – S01E03 – Destiny

[00:00:00] This summer, we enter a new era of Star Wars. You mean the dawn of the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast? Yeah, yeah sure, that too. But I was obviously talking about the Acolyte. We've got to cover that on The Lorehounds.

[00:00:18] Oh, but the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast is exactly at that point in the timeline, the end of the High Republic, 100 years before the prequel trilogy. We've got to cover it there. Why not both? Okay, deal. It's the first live action Star War outside the Skywalker saga.

[00:00:37] Nobody can miss this. Listeners, kick off your Hot Lore summer weekends with scene by scene breakdowns of The Acolyte, found in both the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast and The Lorehounds' mother feed. And The Lorehounds' Star Wars feed.

[00:00:52] Wherever you like to listen, a couple of days after each new episode is released. Absolutely. As the kids say. Yeah. Yeah, so I think whenever a show activates response, that's a good thing. It means it's doing something, it's saying something, it's taking a swing at things.

[00:01:28] And so yeah, I had a couple of big thoughts that I wanted to throw into the mix. Toss them our way. Yes. So the first couple of episodes were a little meh for me. I was like, oh, you know, it's a freshman show, right?

[00:01:43] So there's a new actors, new writers. I mean, Leslie Hedlund is working in a whole new IP for her. So like a lot of grace for a new season. She is one of the biggest Star Wars fans in the world, just putting it out there. Right, exactly.

[00:01:58] She knows it, but still actually producing something is a huge deal. So I get it, right? You got to give a show a little bit of room to breathe. And in this episode, there was still some clunky stuff like the script and the acting of the kids.

[00:02:13] And I don't mean to, I know that the kids are doing an amazing job of the acting, but it's still a lot. They're still, I think, finding their feet. But I will say that at least on that score, they did capture really well a sibling relationship

[00:02:28] and the dynamics between siblings and how two kids who come from the same source, so to speak, can be very different from each other. So I felt that that was really good. The midichlorian thing I wanted to address briefly.

[00:02:49] And a shout out to a new podcast we just came across called Every Single Sci-Fi Film Ever. And in one of the early episodes of that podcast, there was a conversation with some sci-fi experts, some sci-fi academics.

[00:03:05] And they put their finger on exactly what bothers me about midichlorians, which is midichlorians move us from a mystical universe into a- Welcome to the Star Wars Canon Timeline Podcast. And the Lore Hounds Star Wars Podcast. I'm John. And I'm Alicia.

[00:03:40] And today we're exploring Destiny, the third episode of the Disney Plus Star Wars series, The Acolyte. Listeners, for this crossover podcast series, we'll be following the Star Wars Canon Timeline spoiler rules. We might mention a character or vaguely reference a well-known event from later in the timeline

[00:03:55] for those who know those stories, but we promise not to spoil any of the big twists or story arcs to come. We'll save our trailer-based speculation about what's still to come in the series for a special section at the end. See the notes for timestamps.

[00:04:09] And then John and I will check in with subscribers after next week's midseason episode for a discussion of how these events might play into what happens later in the timeline. Just a reminder that subscribers get ad-free access to all these episodes the day before everyone else.

[00:04:23] If that sounds interesting, stick around to the end of the podcast and we'll explain those benefits. Plus, we'll give you teases of what to expect in the near future on the feed where you're listening and the rest of the Lore Hounds network.

[00:04:35] Check the link tree in the show notes for links to all, including our Discord, where the Acolyte discussion is really kicking off in a fun, mystery-loving way. And for the record, this conversation was recorded on June 13th, 2024. And also we have a silent visitor lurking.

[00:04:53] The triumvirate is complete. David just had to hop in with your hot takes. Welcome. Yes, I was lurking in the shadows. I have some things to say. So it seems like a lot of people are enjoying the season so far.

[00:05:09] Discord seems to be popping off as a rational science-based universe, right? It's like, oh, we're going to talk about organic chemistry when we're reading magical realism or something, right? It just doesn't, you know, I'm mixing apple pie and spaghetti.

[00:05:25] I will defend this mixture of science and magical realism to my grave, including midichlorians. Just putting that out there. Perfect. I mean, isn't that what Star Wars is? It's the fusion. It's the perfect, most notable fusion of science fiction and fantasy. Right.

[00:05:43] I mean, we get spaceships operating like they're atmospheric flight crafts, right? You know, flying around. So anyway, so I really took note of when they took the blood sample. And when, is it June? I took the blood sample. And I was like, oh my God. Right?

[00:06:02] When she was in the midichlorian? Torben did, yeah. Oh, okay. Sorry. Yeah, you're right. Or Tommen if you want. Yeah. Also just to further defend midichlorians because I think they need a voice. You know, nobody, who will speak for the midichlorians? The force, but yes.

[00:06:19] Being someone who grew up with them already being part of the canon, I think that makes a big difference for me. Like that was always baked into Star Wars the same way the fact that other characters

[00:06:31] can use the force to guide them into, you know, guide them in their flights. Right? Like things like that where you're sort of science-ifying mysticism. I think it feels about the same to me. Like I'm fine with midichlorians. Right. Got it.

[00:06:50] No, I liked when they were introduced because I like explanations like that if they fit and they work. And in this case it does. But anyway. I think it does something. I think it's going to be an interesting thing though.

[00:07:03] So for as much as the midichlorians might cause some fans some agita, I think it's going to be interesting once I get into my more specific points here. So those are sort of my general thoughts. New show. Okay. We're doing a lot.

[00:07:21] And this episode really grabbed me in a way that one and two didn't. The deepening of the mystery and the deepening of the relationship between the sisters, the introduction of this coven. It's, yeah, they're suddenly doing something really interesting.

[00:07:38] So I'm glad that three just feels like it's got solid footing. And I think three really starts to move us into a new territory in what we want from a show like this. When it starts to examine this question of the force, quote unquote, and I'm using quotes

[00:07:58] quite heavily here is that there's this power that's just out there. Some people call it the force. Other people call it, what did they call it? The thread. Yeah. The thread in this.

[00:08:11] And we've also talked about other groups that talk about it in terms of oceanic terms and yeah. And this may be present in other, you know, Canon and legend stuff in the books and whatnot,

[00:08:24] but at least on screen, like we're really getting a, this is our first real representation of this. And then this idea that the Jedi are an order, right? There are just one particular group of people who have a particular dominance in this part

[00:08:39] of the galaxy that has a systematized method of training to access the force, to identify people who are sensitive and who can then be trained to access and, and, um, uh, strengthen their relationship with this, this thing.

[00:08:57] So I love this idea that the witches are just tapping into the same source, but just having their own ways of knowing, having their own ways of, of training and accessing and utilizing this generic resource that exists out of there. So I think that is, is really unique.

[00:09:17] And I, and I was really taken aback pleasantly by like, Whoa, they're really going there with this storyline. This is, this is great. This is cool. Cause we had, you know, the, Oh wait, I have to be careful about what we're doing.

[00:09:30] Cause we're on the, on the timeline podcast. You can't go to the OT or the PT. Right. I'll leave you with a dark, dark saver. Perfect. Is that what that was? I was wondering what that was.

[00:09:44] Shout out to Bob because he's the one who pointed out how cool it sounds. Very good. So anyway, this is, this is exciting and I think it's very cool and I think it's going

[00:09:54] to upset some people out there, you know, people who are not fans, but people who are, who think that they are fans and I'm here for them, for them to be, to be in, in, in annoyed by this because this is great.

[00:10:11] This is, this is where we want our stories to go. And I think there's, there's go ahead. I just wanted to add that. I love this line of thinking and it's a line of thinking that I was thinking of too, because

[00:10:25] this episode really emphasizes the way the Jedi fit into the imperialist nature of the Republic and the way the Jedi, you know, have this mindset of our way is the way. Yep. Right. And your way is wrong.

[00:10:45] Well, the Jedi have largely been painted as I can't, I can't talk about later, but you know, well, they are painted as perhaps independent of the Republic in a lot of ways. I think they very much are in line with the imperialist tendencies of the Republic that

[00:11:04] lead to later events. Yeah. I mean, Leslie Headland, the show runner pointed out that this is a, that the Star Wars in general is a story about the underdog. And at this point in history, the Jedi are not really the underdogs. They are the dominating force.

[00:11:22] They along with their close lines with the Galactic Republic are the dominating force in the galaxy. Yeah. Right. And I think this, this segues nicely into a couple of key lines that we heard in this episode that really crystallized a lot of these thoughts for me.

[00:11:42] The first, and apologies if they're, the lines are not exactly verbatim. I wasn't, I didn't get a chance to go back and review the episode. So these are close, pretty close approximations. And the first one is deranged monks, referring to the Jedi as deranged monks.

[00:12:01] And I'm like, is that the best line ever? That was just awesome. I, I absolutely laughed out loud. It was just like, I almost spit my tea out. And it's, it's a, it's a great summation of the Jedi, right?

[00:12:14] There are a bunch of monks and aesthetics who have these really weird things that they do not, not, you know, not, not only creating, you know, creating all of these, these I don't want to say unnatural structures, but there's this very rigid, you know, internal social

[00:12:35] order, but then also taking other people's kids away from them. Right. Right. But Saul said they don't. What's that? Well, But Saul said that they don't. Right. Right. We don't steal kids. We just show them candy and ask if they want it. Right. Exactly.

[00:12:51] We just hand them lightsabers and be like, want one? Yeah. Someone, someone compared that to handing a kid a loaded gun. I was like, yeah. Absolutely. Uh, the next one was, um, I believe June says this destiny is not decided for you by an anonymous force.

[00:13:11] This idea that, um, even though he's a Jedi and part of this order, he's also pointing to something about agency. Like you know, your, your destiny is not determined by us Jedi or, or all, you know, other people,

[00:13:27] but that you as an individual have some sort of voice or say in, in your life. And if the force is calling you, so to speak, you know, to use that phrase, then that's for you and the force to work out, right.

[00:13:41] You know, it, in, in what your ultimate destiny is and can we get you there? Can we, can, can society help you move forward? So it was a really interesting line relative to everything else that's going on.

[00:13:54] This one also caught me, which is you'll never feel like this again. I promise. Which is typical Jedi bullshit right there, you know, and making promises that you just can't follow through. But isn't that like typical parents bullshit?

[00:14:09] Like is it, isn't that something that every parent wants to tell their child? And it's seems clear that Saul immediately adopted May the moment he clapped eyes on her. And one of the, this relationship between these two and and these two actors, both child,

[00:14:25] children, child actors and adult actors, the chemistry here is great. And I just love this, this bonding and I love June's vibe and there's a whole world of, of talking about parental stuff in this particularly this episode.

[00:14:42] Anyway, the last line, which I think is the thesis of the show and it's, it's something that really grabbed me and then sort of lit this, this fire. I had to come on and say something, which is I believe it is what's her name? Mother.

[00:15:02] I'm sorry, I don't have it in front of me. Anastasia? Mother Anastasia. It's Coral. Okay. Oh yeah. Coral is the one who carried them. Anastasia is the leader. Yeah. And she's the one who's talking to Anastasia who says, this is about power and who gets to use it.

[00:15:16] Right. Boom. Right there. Right. You know, who is that? Who are the Jedi to say that your destiny is this? Who are the Jedi to say we deny you your feelings? You know, you're, you're never going to feel like this again. You know, who are the Jedi?

[00:15:30] There are a bunch of deranged monks, you know, and Anastasia is calling it out and saying this is about power and who can use it. And when we look at that in a modern context and we look at traditional ways of knowing

[00:15:45] versus a Western or scientific ways of knowing, all of these are systematized ways of, of, of, what do I say? Interrogating is not the right word. Inquiring as to how the world works and where did we come from and where are we going?

[00:16:01] And then trying to package that in a way so that we can affect how we're living now. So, oh, well we know that this plant has this effect because we've been eating it for millions of years and of our evolution and we've learned something about it.

[00:16:17] We've been able to develop technologies and machines that allow us to peer to the sub, you know, subatomic levels and measure forces. But we can also, you know, have stories and understandings about, oh, you know, weather

[00:16:32] or farming or whatever it may be, you know, human beings were, were, were inquisiting, were inquiring into the world, creating systems to hold that knowledge and then be able to use that knowledge for whatever our gains are.

[00:16:46] And when you, when you hold power and when you hold knowledge, you're restricting and you're, you're dampening other people's agency and you're controlling, ultimately controlling them. And so this whole dynamic between, and this is, this is what's going on. Right.

[00:17:02] Like if you, if you as a fan are like, oh, this is all social justice, you know, you're missing, you, you are blind to what's the world is. Right. Where we're billions of people with so many different, you know, understandings and, and

[00:17:15] cultural histories and, and ways of, of understanding the natural world and the world that we live in and our social world. And so to, for this show to be going there, I'm like, wow, this is, this is a really big

[00:17:29] swing for a property that has traditionally been very conservative. I don't know that I necessarily agree that it's been conservative because it was originally conceived as, you know, the, the, well, yeah, not to be spoilery, but the original film

[00:17:47] is a nod to events in Vietnam in the seventies. Sure. In the original films, a lot of Lucas has been a social justice warrior if you want. Yeah. Well, that's why he created the Jedi. Yeah. Yeah. The moment that Disney spent, what was it?

[00:18:03] $4 billion or however much it was to buy this. It has become a conservative institution because they're trying to maximize, they're trying to return. They're trying to show value for their purchase. And I mean, we look at the number of films that have been canceled, the number of actors

[00:18:18] who've come in who, oh, so-and-so is going to be in a film. Oh no, that film's not going to happen. And that's when you say conservative, do you mean lack of risk taking? Is that what you're trying to say or, or politically conservative?

[00:18:30] No, no lack of risk taking within the story. Okay. That I would agree to an extent. Yeah. Yeah. In animation they've been able- They're risk averse, they're risk averse, not conservative. There you go. I'm phrased now, that's better.

[00:18:40] In animation they've been able to take more risks, which is why they're, that's why some of the best storytelling is there. Lower stakes. Tim! All right. Yeah. It's lower stakes, right? And it had different production values attached to it and all that kind of stuff.

[00:18:57] So when you put a movie on a big screen, that's going to have a different value. When Force Awakens came out, man, like everybody was enlivened and we were at the theaters. Yeah. We'll litigate the sequel trilogy much later. It's nice you enjoyed A New Hope.

[00:19:13] Anyway, yeah, yeah. I agree with you. I think that there's been some risk averse stuff, although again, I am a Last Jedi defender and I think that there were risks there. Right. No, yeah. Overall, I'm saying overall, I'm not talking about an individual thing, but when this Star

[00:19:37] Wars story and the sequel movies were all announced, it was going to be like, oh, we're going to get all of these expansions on film into other parts of the universe.

[00:19:48] We started to see some of it with the TV shows, but so many projects have been announced and then canceled. Some of the characters have been announced and then detached and what have you.

[00:19:58] So overall, when you compare it to Star Trek, which has really figured out what the different lanes are and is actually putting out a lot of product and you can say what you want about the product, they're doing stuff. Yeah.

[00:20:11] Star Wars is doing stuff, but on the streaming side, yeah, they need to get back in theaters. Yeah, but even there, they tried and whatever. There could be more. The point is that this show, I think to me is surprising. I'm like, whoa. Okay.

[00:20:33] Wow, they're taking a swing here and they're letting Leslie Hedlund do something that I don't think they would have let other directors do. I'm here for it. I'm applauding it and I'm excited by it.

[00:20:47] I think that if we're going to start talking about these ways of knowing and access to power and who can use power, that is an interesting question. Just more space wizards with laser swords, but oh no, who are these people and why are

[00:21:08] they being quote unquote persecuted or why were they exterminated? That's an interesting question. Those are my thoughts. The last thing I just want to say is hashtag Force Babies. Is that where you're going with is the immaculate? I can't say the words. Immaculate conception. Yeah, no, no, no.

[00:21:30] I was going to say something else. Oh, you were going to say, yeah. No, I mean, obviously this is something we're going to discuss more in our spoiler. I don't know the wider canon, so I'm just like Force Babies.

[00:21:40] Yeah, obviously this is linked to a character we meet in the next era. Anyway, you can tell I'm activated by this show in the best possible way. Yeah, no, absolutely. We're like, oh great, these are cool topics. Let's go.

[00:21:54] Freshman show, we've got some things to work out still, but they're going somewhere and that makes me happy as a Star Wars fan that they're striking out into new territory and saying new things. And they're making us ask new questions about people who don't like sand.

[00:22:10] No, Zaria, I'm good there. Yeah, okay. Well, thank you. I mean, I am with John in predicting that you will be back on the mic talking about this again in the very near future. As is my want and right. He can't resist. No, I couldn't.

[00:22:30] He can't resist it. That's the best compliment the show can give. What's that? That's the best compliment the show can get. Exactly, exactly. I thought, oh, well, maybe I'll send in a little audio diary or, you know, voicemail thing or something like that.

[00:22:42] I was like, no, no, no, I can actually say something. But you brought up some great themes. Yeah, I'm curious to what you guys had to say. I appreciate that. Yeah. What do you guys? I'm curious to your heart. What was your heart take?

[00:22:55] I thought it was the best episode yet for sure. I mean, I was surprised we got a full flashback episode so early because I thought we were going to keep going down this timeline, but they were like, no, this entire episode is going to be in the past.

[00:23:09] And that was really great. Right. I actually did enjoy the twins acting. I thought that they did a really good job of feeling like genuine siblings and they are genuine siblings, right? They are twins. So it's easy to feel like that.

[00:23:25] But what was interesting was watching these two characters be so different from the beginning. And I was talking about this on the discord, how May clearly thinks that the Jedi are solely at fault for what happened and is in complete denial that there was division

[00:23:42] between her and her sister before the Jedi even got there. Right. When there clearly was, right? I mean, I mean, the minute that we see them, they're already arguing. Totally. And and May is trying to push.

[00:23:55] It's interesting because May is trying to push Osha to adopt her way of thinking. But Osha doesn't do the same thing for me. She's not like you don't want to be a witch. She accepts she's like my sister's place might be here and that's OK.

[00:24:07] But I my my heart's calling elsewhere. Basically, I don't want to be on Brindock forever. And that's why May is closer to the dark side because she's she's being more possessive, less Buddhist. Right. She's trying to impose her will upon others. Yeah. And that's that's very sad.

[00:24:24] And you're conflicted, right? Because you have Mother Anasea who really just wants her children to stay home. And I totally understand that as a parent. Yeah, yeah. But then she also is kind of like, maybe I will let you go with Jedi.

[00:24:40] I think I think she's more open to the idea of if Osha doesn't want to do that, then she doesn't have to. Right. And and Mother Coral's like, no, we have to do everything by the book. Which we can totally see.

[00:24:53] And I can look around at other parents you might know and go, oh, yeah, I can see these models. She's really depicted a family dynamic very well. Right. Yeah. She's explicitly very thorny. And you said it. But anyway, she's an interesting character. I did really like the ritual.

[00:25:13] I thought that I the whole time I'm watching, I'm like, we got to get Marilyn on this podcast at some point. Yeah. I'm sensing I'm sensing a clacking of a keyboard. The forces of a long email is being generated.

[00:25:29] Yeah, I am on I will say I'm on team clone babies. I think they are clones of Mother Aniseia that were carried by Mother Coral. OK. That's where I'm at. But other than that, you said what? Force babies or clone babies.

[00:25:50] It does play into setting up later lore. Yeah. And I don't recall is cloning outlawed in the High Republic? Oh, not that I'm aware of. Why did you do you remember that from one of the books? No, no, no. I just I'm thinking of things.

[00:26:08] Well, I mean, I know that because we talked about why I guess they're not really in. We talked about a race from the old republic that were cloners, although I think they're like referenced in canon, you know, like in a reference book, but not confirmed confirmed.

[00:26:23] Anyway, I'm on team clone for now because I have to be a contrarian on this. Right. OK. But but yeah, I mean, I thought great episode. I'm so impressed by soul. I can't remember the name of the actor, but he's just incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:26:40] And the fact that he learned English for this role is just amazing to me because he's so good at emoting in English. I was like, huh? You know, I was curious because I had watched the original squid game and then I heard

[00:26:53] that he had learned English for this and his his ability to emote on screen is incredible. Absolutely incredible. It's palpable. Yeah, I was really loving. I think one of my favorite moments is when he takes off his lightsaber and Indara doesn't sense his intentions yet.

[00:27:14] And she goes, don't soul. And so just hands it to me and just goes, I think you would make a good Jedi. I it was just so warm and fatherly. Right. And lovely. And I it's it's the kind of feels that I want from Star Wars.

[00:27:30] It just is. I mean, watching the Jedi. Flirt with attachment, right? They they nice. They crave it. They crave attachments because everyone is as a humanoid. I'm going to say humanoid because they're all different species. And everyone is a humanoid needs relationship.

[00:27:51] And the and the Jedi order has denied that to them. Or or restricted it in ways that are deranged, maybe, if you will. Right. Yeah, but I mean, it denies them honest relationship, right? Like they have these parental

[00:28:10] child relationships that are framed as mentor like my can't say anything. But, you know, like like masters and apprentices are taking children at such a young age. So, of course, they see them as children, you know, and you can't help but. Right. Protective.

[00:28:26] And especially if you don't have your own children because of your Jedi restrictions. Where do you send that? Broken that Yoda has like watched a million generations. Yeah. That I come and go. One source book said he trained 20,000 Jedi personally. That's the same.

[00:28:47] But I believe it. Yeah, I believe it. There was a Yoda POV chapter in the book I was reading last night, and that was that was excellent. Well, I think this goes into this question of, again, you know, who has agency in choosing, you know, determining your destiny?

[00:29:04] And and if if we want if people want to, if if people look at the Jedi order and go, that's cool, that's for me, that's one thing. But then when you cruise around and you scoop up

[00:29:15] anybody who's force sensitive under the age of six or whatever their cutoff is and and remove them from their family, that's a different thing. I mean, the the the the line or the whole situation when they were like,

[00:29:29] oh, you've got you know, you can't be training for sensitive babies. They have to come with us. Right. That was shocking. Right. That was like, whoa. Well, it reminds me of we talked about in the Old Republic of Review episode,

[00:29:41] the baron dos sages, and they basically died out because the Jedi kept taking their most talented kids. Wow. I have to say, Alicia, when I was watching this, I had the Jonah Hill meme, the excited meme or yeah,

[00:29:57] when you when we saw the coven and when we knew that we were going to go with the coven and I was like, Alicia is probably just freaking out right now. Yeah. I hope you enjoyed what they're doing.

[00:30:09] No, obviously this was an episode for me, which lore galore. And I would say I've seen people who are upset that this episode didn't explain everything. And I would say to them, like we have five episodes left. So don't worry.

[00:30:24] We're going to be seeing these events from at least one more perspective, at least May's perspective. I'm thinking the Jedi is most likely as well. And yeah, I think that the lore here does work with what we've seen so far.

[00:30:38] It doesn't take away any chosen status of anyone later in the timeline, but it may explain some things that happen later in the timeline or have proven to be the inspiration for events that happen later. So that's that's just adding richness to this overall tapestry of story.

[00:30:57] And I just have to call out how many, quote unquote, self-proclaimed true fans seem to have no idea that Star Wars has had witches since 1994. So, yeah, the the haters came out strong with this episode

[00:31:10] and that sort of sort of took the wind out of my sails for a second. But I just I rewatched it right before we recorded. And I'm like, yes, this I love this episode. There's so much interesting detail in there. So much to pick into.

[00:31:23] I also watched a really interesting interview with with part of the Acolyte cast with Daphne Keene, Manny Jacinto and Charlie Barnett. And they were talking about Headlands collaborative backstory building, which I found really interesting. So we find out that basically Daphne Keene decided that Jackie

[00:31:43] comes from a poor background and that for her, the Jedi Order was a way out. And so it's interesting because when you know that you can see that in her performance, how that informs certain character decisions. And we also found out that Yord is from Alderaan.

[00:32:00] Nice. Yeah, I am very grateful for the discord because you were saying the wind's taken out of your sail a little bit when you look at the fan reaction. Don't don't call them quote fan quote fan. Yes. Self-proclaimed. Yeah. Yeah. Keep the gatekeepers here. Yeah, sure. Sure.

[00:32:20] And I really am grateful to see like real conversations happening in our discord that are related to like these conversations that we're having right now. Right. Exactly. Yeah. The morality of of the Jedi taking children.

[00:32:35] I remembered what I was going to say before when we had to edit out me losing my train of thought, which was I have a lot of trouble accepting that it's morally OK for the Jedi to allow a child to decide to leave their family behind,

[00:32:54] which is a permanent decision. Yeah. And accept this way of life at a very young age. I mean, think about modern day reality. We don't want kids. We have a lot of issues right now where people are saying, why are we letting 18 and 17 year olds sign student loans?

[00:33:11] Right. That's a that's a big decision. That's a lot of debt for a career that might not work out. And and this is what she's an eight right now. I mean, come on. And considered too old. Yeah. Right. Right. And so I I just don't know,

[00:33:26] especially without parental consent, when the parents are actively opposing this. Mm hmm. I don't think that's right. I don't think that they are in the right here. I think they are waving shiny toys in front of kids and saying, you want one?

[00:33:40] Right. The but then there's this question of how we infantilize our children as well. Our children are far more capable when they're infants, their infants, that we socially relate to them. We infantilize them and we speak down to them.

[00:33:56] And there's a way of, I think, of relating with children to recognize that they're far more capable. Yes, they're children. I'm not saying, you know, give them driver's licenses. But when you know, when I have conversations with my eight year old,

[00:34:11] I'm constantly astonished by her ability to articulate her feelings, her thoughts, her desires. And yeah, when when there's something that's extra special on the table, like, you know, I like like many kids are ours is very treat motivated.

[00:34:31] So when it comes to ice cream or cake or whatever, there is an outsize and that's part of my job as a parent is to manage and moderate that. But she's still articulating something. And if I don't recognize the articulation.

[00:34:45] You know, but but even in larger things about playing, you know, sports and activities and extracurricular activities and that kind of stuff, there's far more going on. And so it's our job, like our job as a parent is to be present

[00:35:00] to our kids and to listen to them. And so when when when you hear your child repeatedly going, I really like this Jedi thing, I'm really attracted to what's going on here. Listen to that and then understand that, unfortunately,

[00:35:14] there's no way to go to like junior Jedi camp, you know, on the planet where, you know, it's a half day force training camp or something. We're just going we're like, well, they sever the ties. They sever the ties. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:35:26] We're right on the cusp of getting into summer and camps and all of this kind of stuff. And so that's where my head is at. I mean, they did. They go to Jedi camp. They just never come back. They never come back. Yeah.

[00:35:36] But being present to your kids and listening to what they have to say, and listening to what they have to say, because she's clearly articulating. Right. Justice, peace, order, helping people, protecting people. That is a natural instinct that some people have.

[00:35:53] And in our in our modern context, you know, that could be translated into military service, into civilian law enforcement service. It could go into medical care. There's a lot of different expressions. And if if that particular child is like, wow, this Jedi order thing,

[00:36:09] I want to explore and understand what that is. That's a that's a valid. Right. That's a child, you know, expressing something internally. And we got to be present to that. So I'm really on a rant on this show. Are you on team coral?

[00:36:23] They should not have gotten spice creams. Or are you on team on the SEA? They should have gotten spice creams. Look, if it's a special day, you know, we can relax. And if it's, you know.

[00:36:36] I mean, we're having an ice cream social at our house today after school. So, you know, I'm on team ice cream. I David, I agree with some of what you said. I don't agree with all of it. I think I think absolutely we should be validating

[00:36:50] our children's opinions and whatnot. I think where I where I take issue with it, with this particular situation is the permanence of it. I agree. No, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But because we don't have Jedi half day force training camp. Right. It's like all or nothing.

[00:37:04] That's an impossible situation. Right. I went to science camp a couple of times as a kid. Right. Like you and I went to Boy Scout camp for for a week every summer. But I didn't live there for the rest of my life and disowned my parents.

[00:37:15] Yeah. And that's where I think the Jedi go wrong is this failure to allow attachments leads to dishonesty with oneself. And I would say conflict. Right. One might say internal conflict. The heart with itself, maybe. Yes.

[00:37:39] So I just have to yeah, we got to get into the episode breakdown because we got a dense episode, but 37 minutes into the podcast. But I just want to I want to call out a couple last general things. Speaking of our lively discord,

[00:37:55] Athena Agilea made a good observation about the episodes of last week. She said, I think with Sol and I may be misreading, but he was trying to assess her fighting style to know who trained her. Sorry, was thinking about this more last night.

[00:38:09] I would think at this point they're thinking rogue Jedi, not a Sith. So they may be looking for common features in Jedi training. So I think that's interesting that just to know that we're at the level in Star Wars combat where indeed

[00:38:22] for a long time and evolving every character has their own style. But now we have a character who's looking at other characters to be like, what's your style? Who trained you? Which goes back into my comment that I sent in for,

[00:38:35] I forget was it episode one about the fight like Wushu Kung Fu fighting styles and how that was depicted in movies, you know, pulp style movies. Yeah. As I was growing up was, oh, you know, Kreen style, Tiger style, you know, oh, I studied under this master.

[00:38:49] That was a really important detail. And it was part of your lineage and it created it's a craft, not just a a random thing you do, but there's an actual social history around it. Yeah, no. And the references to movies in general have been off the chart.

[00:39:09] Leslie Hedlund's definitely a movie nerd. And so we got like straight up references to The Fugitive and Kill Bill so far. And apparently there's Alien and Predator episodes coming up. So loving that aspect of the show too. Yeah. You may be hearing from me again on this podcast.

[00:39:26] My force vision says yes. Oh, yeah. My force vision says we still got a lot to talk about. So I think we're going to take a quick break. And I guess, David, you need to hop off and start your ice cream social planning.

[00:39:42] Yeah, I'll let you guys run with it. Yeah. Yeah, I have to feed my child four screams. And for the listeners, we'll be right back after a quick break to talk about the scene by scene analysis.

[00:39:55] All right. And we are back and ready to break down Episode Three, Destiny. This time the writers credited were Jasmine Flournoy and Eileen Shim. Interestingly, Shim also wrote an episode of House of the Dragons Season One.

[00:40:31] So there seems to be some crossover talent going between these two shows. And people are very excited about the directors Konaga, a South Korean director best known for the 2017 film Columbus. And I know him for After Yang, a 2021 film about artificial intelligence in the family. OK.

[00:40:50] And he's also going to be directing Episode Seven of this season. Oh, OK. So we got we got some repeat contenders. Yeah. No, it seems like they have a you see the writers are often credited for multiple episodes to like they were really working together.

[00:41:05] It's a team for sure. So we open the episode on her home planet of Brendach. An eight year old Osha steals a private moment under the beautiful but toxic Bunta tree where her sister May finds her playing with a jelly butterfly creature.

[00:41:20] May admonishes her for sneaking out of their compound and the girls bicker about their coming ascension ceremony as they walk through the woods where they are confronted by one of their mothers. A younger Jedi Master Sol sneaks through the woods, spying on them.

[00:41:33] So did you notice when we swept in on the planet that there were some standing stones there, which we've seen? We saw standing stones on that later in the timeline on Tython, one of the Jedi origin planets. But that must be a place strong with the force.

[00:41:49] Right. Right. Yeah. I didn't think about that, but that's a good call. I do wonder if that means because they say the planet's unoccupied now, but it seems like it's not. That means because they say the planet's unoccupied now,

[00:42:03] but it seems like there must have been people living there before what happened. Right. Right. And does the dark side have something to do with it? There was there was a pit and we've known that where there is a pit, there is a problem, right?

[00:42:17] Yeah, something about it's funny because you would think like the Earth is wholesome and definitely with with witchcraft. It's very connected in our real world. Witchcraft is connected with the Earth. And but yes, it's painted as a dark thing always to have this whole into the Earth.

[00:42:32] So I have some thoughts on that later. So we have the the bunta tree here. We finally get to see the tree itself. The dried leaves looks red to me, but they're yellow on the tree and they're like draped in a weeping style.

[00:42:44] Like my favorite trees, a weeping cherry. I don't know if you have a favorite tree, John. I haven't thought about it, but I'll get back to you next week. How about that? I'll choose a favorite tree before the end of the season.

[00:42:56] A lot of tree motifs in Star Wars. So there's time to talk. But yeah, I agree with you. I thought that the girls, the young actresses names are Leah and Lauren Brady. I thought they did a great job.

[00:43:10] Like maybe sometimes a little hammy because they are young kids, but I think that they nailed like the emotional moments. Their facial expressions were really on point for me. It worked for me. And I found it heartbreaking to the call back at the end of the episode.

[00:43:27] So when she says here, I always know to look for you under this bunta tree. Not anymore. Yeah, not anymore. Yeah, that was really heartbreaking. Oh shit. Oh, she did not want you to know she she just wants her sister back.

[00:43:42] I feel so terrible for me, but also she's like a terrible sister to her sister. Right. She's clinging too hard. Yeah. Well, even like she comes and she immediately screams dark side, right? Like the way she's manipulating the jelly was that but this is a question

[00:44:01] because this is from OSHA's perspective this whole episode. We noticed that at certain points and so but we also see Josh OSHA uses her force on the jellyfly to first like she uses it to hold it longer, but then it somehow is worse.

[00:44:17] But yeah, I think I think of how some Jedi are capable of communing with animals and sort of befriending them through the force and others try to control them through the dark side. And I think what we're seeing here is at least from this perspective, OSHA's

[00:44:40] using the light side to interact and May is using the dark side. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Yeah, because we also see we get this contrast here where OSHA sees the beauty in the Banta tree and May sees a danger because the leaves are

[00:44:56] poisonous and she's like, well, I just want to eat the leaves. But that seems to maybe be an analogy for how they both view the Jedi because at this point actually OSHA is is drawing a Jedi insignia in her journal, even though she hasn't seen one yet.

[00:45:13] So she might be getting some sort of force visions. But then you contrast this with later where OSHA seems a more fearful one, like when they are defending themselves during the Coven practice session, OSHA is hiding behind May.

[00:45:28] So is there some unreliability in narration here or are there inherent differences in which thing that they're afraid of but they both have fear? That's a good question. And I wonder if it's because it's a here's the thing.

[00:45:43] They're force pushing which has always been to me a pretty force neutral thing. Not a not a light nor dark side ability. And but it just seems like OSHA doesn't want to fight right? Like OSHA just doesn't want conflict.

[00:45:57] She just wants to chill and I vibe with that. I totally understand where she's coming from with that. So it's a shame that she's pushed into this whole thing. I mean, I'm my heart breaks for OSHA this entire episode the way that she goes.

[00:46:09] I do when she's asked if if if she wants to accept her. Yeah, it's just it's just really she's just pushed into this and how many people do we know in real life who are pushed into right the family business or whatever right the family business the family

[00:46:27] religion this and that and and it speaks truth. This this this has an internal inherent truth in it. Right. I mean, I I both understand and like don't understand both of them because on the one hand I'm like I want to be an awesome force

[00:46:43] witch but then on the other hand, I'm definitely you know OSHA's reminding me of a Gwaine from the Wheel of Time where you know, she just wants to go out and see the world and that's definitely me so

[00:46:56] I can relate to both of them and it's sad to see how their differences pull them apart. But yeah, and you relate to both of them because they're the same clone. Well, yeah, but then this is the thing like what if they are like

[00:47:13] such contrast two different sides of the yin and yang the OSHA and the Bhogum could they have been they couldn't have done better than Bhogum, huh? And this is from Legends. They just couldn't have done better. I don't know who first made up that.

[00:47:31] I'm hoping they retcon that one because you know, they did fix it. It's already in canon. I don't like that. I don't like that because I do like some of the canon changes like I like how they changed it from red lightsabers being synthetic

[00:47:45] kyber crystals to blood kyber crystals. That's a really cool change. Anyway, not for this podcast. Right? Yeah, so I did notice they do the whole rhyme again. They you're with me. I'm with you always one but born as two as above sits the stars

[00:48:00] and below lies a sea I give you you and you give me me and I noticed that again, it's may still giving OSHA OSHA both times. They say the way they repeat it back and forth. So I don't know if there's anything to that but it's interesting. Yeah.

[00:48:15] And it seems like they always say it that way because like that's the way that they said it in her vision flashback vision in the previous episode. Yeah, I wonder I wonder what their true relationship is. Right exactly.

[00:48:31] Yeah, are they a die-out or are they even like clones of each other somehow or one entity split into two? But anyway, yes speaking of visions. I just find it interesting to note that Vernestra the one character

[00:48:44] who was chosen to be brought over from the high Republic books also gets force visions just feels worth mentioning no idea if that'll play into anything going forward. Yeah, I'm looking forward to getting to her in the timeline because

[00:48:57] I'm almost done with era 2 because I'm a bit of maniac because you did something to me. But yeah, I want to see more. I want to see more Vernestra. I mean the high Republic is kind of low-key becoming my favorite

[00:49:11] era right now just because it feels so fresh and open with possibility and there's so much like diversity and force users and what's going on in the galaxy. I mean, I I haven't been as I haven't felt this threatened by a threat

[00:49:27] in the Star Wars universe as I have with a weapon of the path. I mean you can talk about the leveler is honestly, I think the scariest villain in Star Wars. Yeah, I've seen a while. Mm-hmm.

[00:49:46] Yeah, and then well, yeah, I won't I won't spoil what happens but there's more. Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure that this is not over. I'm halfway through the last adult novel for the the era 2 and then I'm I have the last YA novel for era 2.

[00:50:03] And if anyone doesn't know what we're talking about you can listen to the hyper public overview when we talk about the leveler. So yeah, so this is my notice. This is by far the longest section of the notes. We got to talk about that Coven core life.

[00:50:18] You gotta so back in the mountain fortress the pair are scolded by their Zabrak mother Coral who will find out was the one who actually carry the twins and mother Anastasia. We later learned somehow created the twins and Corals womb coddles

[00:50:32] them the two women talk alone about the offworld Jedi moving inland at a Coven meeting the girls get a lesson in the thread connecting all things their version of the force and how they are stronger together Anastasia promises a great show of power at that night's

[00:50:48] ascension, but the girls aren't listening back to bickering in the background. So Anastasia force pushes them down saying the enemy won't give them warning. They need to be ready when the mothers asked the girls to practice their self-defense Mei holds strong while Osha cowers behind her

[00:51:03] sister disappointing them and then later in private with Anastasia Osha expresses her doubts again saying she doesn't want to become a witch Mei on the other hand is eager and a Saiyan Mei poo-poo Osha's doubts reassuring nobody.

[00:51:17] So we have to first talk about we we have a Zabrak in the room and so Zabrak are like if anyone who knows Maul, Maul is a Zabrak. They're basically the horned stripy peeps. I love that species. I think they're so cool. They are so cool.

[00:51:36] The lore is a little hazy because the Clone Wars kind of complicated things without a clear explanation by creating this distinction between so the Zabrak are originally from Eridonia and then in the Clone Wars we get the the Zabrak linked to the night sisters and the night

[00:51:54] brothers who are from the Dathomir, a different planet. So it currently the hazy explanation is that Dathomiri female Zabraks don't have the horns just because basically the night sisters don't but to be honest that could easily be retconned to be better explained.

[00:52:12] Yeah, I would be fine with them being from another galaxy or something like that. I know there's perhaps suggestions of that now. Um, well, I I don't know. Yeah, maybe well, maybe maybe from somewhere called Planet X.

[00:52:25] Yeah, but so it looks like she has a it looks like Coral has a Zabrak markings which it's unclear in the in the lore whether they're natural or or tattoos, but yeah, they still need to smooth out that lore.

[00:52:41] But in any case she seems to be an Eridonian Zabrak and the interesting thing about them. So they are evolved to be tough creatures on a tough world fiercely independent can be off-puttings. Does this sound familiar to any characters we saw in this episode?

[00:52:56] And Doctor Who fans, they have two hearts which makes them more physical. It helps them, you know, pump their blood better. And there seems to be a slightly higher occurrence of horse sensitivity in the species because we know some that become Jedi, Sith, Witches.

[00:53:17] They're generally allied with the Galactic Republic though, but obviously not in this case. But the interesting thing is that there's all kinds of species in this coven. So which is kind of shows signifies maybe they didn't come from the same place. Maybe they are unified by an ideology.

[00:53:37] I like that. I like that a lot. I am very curious. I mean, they said since our exile so they seem to have been in the same place for a while. Yeah, I do wonder when they came here because my theory is they didn't build the compound therein.

[00:53:54] Just like I don't think they did the Standing Stones. I think that this is from an older civilization that was there. I agree with that. I think I'm trying to figure out how to say this without spoiling future events.

[00:54:08] I think that there are many places that have mysterious artifacts. I mean for something that I can mention the Jedi statue on Jedha right like the the mysterious Jedi statue that just appeared. I think they're clearly where other force sensitive populations

[00:54:26] on these planets that no longer live there. Right, right. Exactly. I just also have to call out the two actresses who play the two mothers. So we have Margarita Lviv as Coral and I didn't know her before but she's like a really fascinating woman Russian-born moved to

[00:54:45] the US as a child was a competitive rhythmic gymnast and then became you know worked in fashion for a while graduated with double major in economics and psychology with minors in philosophy sociology and Russian history like damn. This is an interesting woman, but and Jody Turner.

[00:55:04] She wears a lot of hats and Jody Turner. So it's hard also. Sorry. I'm going to make a stupid joke now. It's also hard to wear hats with all those horns. They have to wear special. So yeah, Jody Turner Smith is also great.

[00:55:20] She's she seems to be in a lot of stuff these days. Are you familiar with her? No, I'm not. I'm not a lot of people saying they want her in the Wheel of Time after this performance. Yeah, I could see that.

[00:55:31] I'm thinking about who she could be but my mind is so far from the Wheel of Time right now. It's hard. Yeah, no, we're in a different galaxy far far away. So yeah, and then we also get introduced to this concept of the

[00:55:44] thread that we alluded to in our opening conversation seems to be the Coven's name for the force and it's they say it's tied to one's destiny and binding them to others. And of course this makes us think of the the fates from Greek

[00:55:56] mythology, which we already got a more direct reference to in Ahsoka which takes place later in the timeline where we meet three mothers who are actually named after the three fates. In this case, it seems like there's like more. It's not about three. It's more about two.

[00:56:12] The power of one, the power of two, the power of many. Yeah, I know. Oh man, I love the chant. The power of many. That's great. That's great. I could do that all day. And they also they seem to use threads like the thread here is

[00:56:29] the force itself. And of course, yeah, but they love to reference the fates because we've got that that bird, the owl that follows well that's associated with the light side with Ashla called the Morai. This is to be clear.

[00:56:45] This is a different group from the night sisters who are do exist around this time and this group uses and night sister magic is green and this group's magic is purple, which is interesting because I started to think especially in my rewatch like why are we assuming

[00:57:03] that it's all dark side because purple is actually a balance of the light and dark side. And if you when I look closely there's actually more blue in it than red. There's like distinct strands of blue in their purple.

[00:57:15] Maybe slightly leaning toward the light even but also if if the night sisters use green, I think the colors are just wild cards at this point. I know legends had like their whole definitions thing, but I just don't think Filoni and his minions are interested in that.

[00:57:34] I know he's not writing this one, but I think he's he's kind of a guiding hand on the lore of Star Wars right now. I mean, I am wondering if you know if he actually is leaning into this

[00:57:46] or especially because since Leslie Hedlund wrote this and she loves legends, you know, she could have brought that in and she just she says she got the okay to bring in a lot of stuff from Legends. We've seen some of it so far.

[00:57:57] So we talked about in the Acolyte Prep ep what the lightsabers mean quote-unquote, but although it's yeah, it's hazy in canon lore, but blue is most often associated with Guardians. Green like we see the night sisters is more on the cerebral side like

[00:58:14] the counselors and and and yellow like we see we see certain characters have is more the Sentinels so that Sentinels not to be confused with Guardians. That was kind of funny in that interview with Charlie Burnett. He said he requested a green lightsaber and they're like, nope,

[00:58:31] you're gets yellow. That's funny. Do seem to care a bit, you know, they they're signing meaning with these. Okay, that's interesting. All right, I'm good with that. And I'll start to point out that we're going to see a light whip in this show.

[00:58:44] Sorry spoiler and the night sisters also use light whips during the hyper public. All right. Someone on Twitter. I have to shout out roaring the Wookiee at roaring Jedi on Twitter pointed out that there's a character in a phase 3 hyper public middle

[00:59:01] grade novel called escape from Volo called Gavi and Gavi views the force as threads that all weave together like a spider's web and connect everything together. And when he pulls on a thread, he can bend the force to his will.

[00:59:14] So like when he pull something to him using the force, he views it as pulling a threat. So that's very interesting to note that it's phase 3, but that still set almost a hundred years before this. Right? Right. Yeah, that's cool.

[00:59:28] I do like different techniques of I like I like when different characters explain the force. Yeah, no, I agree. It's because yeah, we've heard it explained even in this show so far as an ocean of fire thread.

[00:59:42] And of course thread it a lot of people would be upset if we didn't bring up what else it reminds us of. Yeah, I see your note there and I I agree to it. I accede to it.

[00:59:56] Yeah, it's definitely a wheel of time for those who don't know they talk about there's you know, the basically the wheel is a spinning wheel that spinning like the tapestry of all events and there are threads and and when the witches in that show the Icidae channel

[01:00:13] there's like threads of magic. They're weaving together. But people are saying that the witches in this show remind them of the Icidae in Wheel of Time, but I actually think the Icidae are more Jedi like to me. What do you think?

[01:00:28] You think the Icidae are more Jedi like? I think that's right. I think that's right. They feel like they have a monopoly on the power in that world. Yeah, and I will say we can say weave right now because David's not

[01:00:39] here so he won't go off on a on a ranch. Weaving rich tapestry. You listening David? Why what's wrong with weave? I just think it's funny that like every time somebody says weave, he's like I'm weaving a rich tapestry. It's just funny. It's just funny to me.

[01:00:55] But yeah, no, I I agree with you. I think as a power structure, they're very similar. Right? And and it does like things they say sound like they could indeed be involved evolved from the Path of the Open Hand and that phase two books that you're reading now.

[01:01:14] So like they she says we do not use the force. We say some call it. She said some call it a force and claim to use it, but we know it's not a power you wield which sounds very Path of the Open

[01:01:27] Hand ish, but then maybe like an evolved explanation that allows them to manipulate it anyway. Yeah, that's interesting. I was I was thinking about this too, you know, the Path of the Open Hand, but but they're just so anti-force. I can't see them evolving into this.

[01:01:44] Yeah, I mean they spoiler alert for that phase of the books, but they do splinter. So, okay. Okay, that makes sense then and I also noticed that all the spiral on Anastasia's head and and Mei's head as well is actually it's a yin-yang symbol.

[01:02:00] I didn't realize that at first but there's two little dots in the middle. Once I got a better look at it in this episode. That's cool. I also find it for the people who are theorizing links to like the Nihilm stuff.

[01:02:11] I do have to note that they use titles like well, they have elder mother and scouts, but then they also have ensign which is very much a Navy title. So there does seem to be some nautical ties. I don't know.

[01:02:22] It could be just like a soup of the anti-Jedi groups that went through the High Republic and shook out into different ways with it, you know? Yeah. That's interesting. I by the way on on the splintering of the Path of the Open

[01:02:41] Hand, please tell me that Martyrs on the right side of history. I am going to bite my tongue on that. We do talk about her in the High Republic episode. Okay, see I skipped those ones because I didn't want to ruin the books. Right? No. Yeah, we do.

[01:02:56] I do straight out spoil. Okay. Well, I'll relisten to those once I once I finish all this. So yeah, I didn't think I was going to read all the High Republic books, but I have to say everyone they're very good and you should read them. Yeah, I know.

[01:03:11] It's just so cool. The world building and then and I think it's great that they got like a stable of steady writers. So, you know, it's the same people contributing to this world and they talk to each other and you know, build a world together. Yep.

[01:03:25] Speaking of building something together. Yeah, that's a power of one power of two power of many. It reminded me very much of apes together strong. Yeah. Did you get the feeling that they are not all equally blessed

[01:03:41] in the force but then by working together, then they can counteract force users like with that demonstration that Anastasia gave. Ooh, as in they all are force sensitive, but not equally. Is that what you're saying?

[01:03:57] Or that's right or not or some of them are maybe not not like naturally so but you know, can we've seen several characters that can become cognizant of force. Not saying that they can all manipulate it or just like pick up a lightsaber.

[01:04:13] That's over feet away on the ground. I think I'm just going to say I think that there are no rules anymore on who can be force sensitive in Star Wars and we should just accept that we should just roll with it because because

[01:04:29] let's not fight against the tide of the ocean of the force. Right, right. I mean, I think yeah, they do emphasize multiple times throughout this entire saga that there are that everyone is connected to the force in some way.

[01:04:43] It's just whether or not you can feel and manipulate it is the question. And we we hear from Anastasia that the ascension is about walking through fear and sacrificing a part of yourself the power of many instead of the power of one.

[01:04:56] So I just I hope that they define later exactly what the ascension entails other than getting a spiral in your head. Yeah, that's that's a good question because I thought they were going to have to like dive into that hole, right?

[01:05:12] That's what I thought when I saw the hole. I was like, oh god, they're going to have to go down there. It's going to be some scary stuff. It's going to be some some some like some last visions or something. But no, this was just now.

[01:05:23] Okay, you got it. You get a tattoo, right? And sign me up for spice cream just in general like Brendock seems like a really nice planet to live before the Jedi rudely interrupted but definitely isolated. But so I didn't realize this.

[01:05:39] I have to give credit to the holo files for calling us out. But spice creams are not new. They originated in Star Wars Legends where they were first introduced in a in a reference book the gladiums fantastic technology or role

[01:05:54] playing supplement and they were introduced in Canon in a different reference book inside additions Galaxy's Edge the official Black Spire outpost outpost cookbook. So we talked in in the young Jedi adventures episode, especially about Galaxy's Edge and Black Spire. So I don't that's a cool callback.

[01:06:18] Yeah, I like that. That's funny. I I love the stupid foods in Star Wars like mix in a yeah, that's not that big of a spoiler man. Tell mix in the bad batch, you know, like there's there's a lot of fun little nods to things.

[01:06:33] And of course if you watch the Star Wars holiday special you get people getting beers poured into their heads. Mm-hmm. Like into their head holes on the head. Hey, that's not Canon though. No, it's not Canon so I could talk about it. Yeah.

[01:06:51] Yeah, I have a question though about this whole idea about like the thread being your interconnected and if you pull you, you know, you affect everything. This is why you should be careful, I guess with using the force.

[01:07:03] But when they were doing the Immaculate Force conception or the force or the womb cloning or whatever this was doing something this big definitely they implied the dark side force was involved in this. How does that pull on the thread and affect things like are they

[01:07:21] being kind of hypocritical with that? I'm sure there's hypocrisy in it just like there's hypocrisy in the Jedi. I think that I mean, I'm of the mind even in the real world that all humans in the real world and humanoids in this world are

[01:07:38] riddled with cognitive dissonance and it just is what it is. Like we just live with contradictions and that's okay. Like we are built to do that. It's all right. It's true. What do you think about like the way they painted the Anasea and Qoril as parents?

[01:07:54] We have Anasea as the indulgent parents, but I do have to say Qoril was right. The Jedi saw the girls everything she learned about she was right about. Right. I think Anasea reminds me of the mother a little bit in the

[01:08:08] fact that she's like, oh just trust in the force, just trust in the force and in the end that's not really what was working there. I think if we look at them staying home as the good goal, then obviously Qoril had the better idea. Right. Yeah.

[01:08:26] Well, everything comes to fruition that night. The witches they gather around a mountain crater as two moons come into alignment for the ascension ceremony. As the girls get ready for the ceremony, Osha expresses a need for more individuality and privacy.

[01:08:41] She dreams of seeing more of the galaxy while Mae just wants to be with Osha and their coven on Brendok. At the ceremony itself, Mae looks eager immediately accepting the terms to carry on the memory of the coven after her mother dies. The

[01:08:54] spiral we see on her face as an adult takes form. Osha is visibly frightened but also agrees. Only then they are interrupted with the news that the Jedi have broken into the compound. Mother Anasea tells the women readying their weapons to stand down

[01:09:09] and avoid violence. The Jedi Indara comes barging in followed by her at this time Padawan Torben and Sol and Kel'Naka. They demand the children who are being hidden by the coven saying it is a violation of Republic law to teach them their ways and

[01:09:24] Osha comes forward to be greeted by Sol who already looks ready to adopt her. Mae is then also called out of the crowd and Indara asks about their father. Anasea says they have none. Sol invites an eager Osha to be tested and trained as a Jedi and Anasea

[01:09:40] takes control of Torben's mind, his eyes turning black as he falls to his knees. She releases her hold only when the Jedi agree to leave but she also reluctantly agrees to allow both of her daughters to be tested the next day.

[01:09:55] First of all I have to call out a lot of people ever since we've started to see more black female characters featured in Star Wars people are like where did they get their hair done which I always

[01:10:03] thought was kind of an inane question but here you go. There's a scene of these women getting their hair done, these girls. Right, right. Yeah, no, they do with family. That's great. Maybe they use the force at some point. Yeah, I don't know. I mean who

[01:10:17] does like Queen Amidala is elaborate. I would love to see some force braiding. Yeah. Let's do it. I'm into that. You're very into like you want to open a force hair salon with your first client. Oh yeah, that'd be great. I mean he, I feel like if he

[01:10:35] worked at the hair salon that would be great because he could do it shirtless and everyone would be happy. Oh yeah, no extra tips for sure. What about, did you notice Kelnaka's hairstyle? I didn't even look. I was too focused on how tall that Finnish

[01:10:50] man is. So we, a lot of people were like joking about the bump he's got because he's got like the front of his hair tied back on top of his head but he's also got the side of his head shaved

[01:11:03] with some sort of faint tattoos there. I don't think we've seen that hairstyle before. No, certainly not from a wolf. No. So I think we might be, I seem to recall some promise of an explanation of that maybe in the comic that's going to come out about him

[01:11:22] in September. Okay, okay. That would make sense. I did, by the way, I bought a comic compilation of some of the High Republic stuff. Oh yeah, cool. I'm excited for that. Yeah, see that's why Marvel United is worth it for just having access also to Star Wars

[01:11:39] and other stuff too. Yeah, I might subscribe for a month so I don't have to buy all the other ones because it adds up and you're just like, I could read these quick. Yeah, it does. It does. And yeah, I blow

[01:11:49] through comics. I really like in this scene the exchange between the two girls when they're getting ready. Osha says we are not the same and May says of course we are and Osha says no, it only feels that way because we're the only children here. And for me

[01:12:03] that moment with that line is when it hit me how lonely Osha must feel. Right. Yeah, something broke there too I think between them. Mm-hmm. You know, having your sibling reject you especially when you are the only children there, I think must have hurt a lot. Right, and

[01:12:21] it's your twin, you know, and everyone's like, mm. Everyone's telling you how similar you are and your twin is like no we're not which I totally understand that because again she wants her individuality

[01:12:31] which by the way every time I say that word I want to say it like Erin in Dairy Girls, individuality. Like she just does it so funny. Speaking of the twin stuff, I forgot to mention that the actress

[01:12:45] who plays Coral is a twin in real life and she says like I've never had any of that twin stuff with my brother. Oh interesting. Yeah, that's funny. So how much did the Eclipse remind you of the game

[01:12:57] that we're hopefully one day going to get that set during this era? Probably not a link, right? But wouldn't it be interesting if it was? What do you mean like if you would, oh the fact that there is an

[01:13:11] Eclipse basically is what you're saying? Well yeah, well we also at one point we hear that they say that like maybe we should attack while the moons are high. So apparently they get their power from the moon. So I'm wondering if there might be someone in the game

[01:13:29] that gets their power from the moon? But like why did they get the power from the moon, right? We've never seen anybody draw from a specific planet before have we? Other than some like force planets. I mean the moons do have gravitational and other effects on the

[01:13:48] planets that they orbit. So I can imagine if you do get your powers for the moon, it's great to be in a planet with two. Although that's not actually that many in our solar system. But it is interesting

[01:13:58] that Tython, you know, one of the Jedi home worlds which also would make it a sacred place to the Sith, also has two moons. And we also see that like standing stone structure on Tython too. So I'm not

[01:14:13] saying this is Tython, but it's at the very least making us think about Tython with this planet. Right, right. Good call. We get the full names of the girls. Verocia Anasea and Mae Ho Anasea. So those are

[01:14:29] cool names. I want to be called, you know, I would want to be called by my full name. She's Verocious. Verocious Verocia. Verocious Verocia had a great scared face facial expression. I do wonder like what does this ceremony practically entail? Mae called it only a ceremony

[01:14:49] but take over when I die? I don't know. Sounds creepy. Yeah, I'm wondering if this is some Harry Potter unbreakable vow stuff, you know, like are we, is this an obligation that like Mother Anasea died and Mae was the only successor name and so now she has to

[01:15:08] take revenge on the people who were in her head responsible for her death? Hmm. Oh, it's interesting. Yeah, because what is she bound to something after her mother dies by that, you know, by that spiral that appears in her head? I think it's interesting.

[01:15:25] It's the first time performing the ceremony since their exile. So I guess I mean, it's notably there's no kids there. So I guess what made them stop being able to have children or did there used to be men in their group? Yeah, lots of questions that I'm hoping

[01:15:42] we get as we re, we're definitely going to be revisiting the events of this episode. So I'm hoping we get more answers as we get more layers laid on top. Well, the Nightsisters basically keep like a

[01:15:55] like a stable of men. Yeah, exactly. To pull from. I wonder if on their previous planet they had that. Right. And then when they got exiled for some reason, maybe the men revolted. They were tired

[01:16:08] of living in a stable. Then now they're like, what do we do? How do we how do we reproduce? Yeah, that's a question. And then some people were wondering if if the you know, unnatural conception might have been what got them exiled or if this is something

[01:16:26] they did after they got to this planet. I don't know. I think this was something they did after they got to the planet. But that's just that's just my guess. Yeah, it's notable that there are repeating triangle shapes associated with the coven, which

[01:16:43] I associate with Sith, I guess because the Sith holocrons are triangle shapes. Right. So I do wonder if like this might have been a place where Sith lived before on in this space or this planet somewhere because I mean, force connections. Yeah. I mean

[01:17:02] at least if we're considering the Old Republic canon, then there definitely were like a lot more Sith planets and a lot more forces. So so definitely I think that's very possible. And it you know, the fact that Chimera I was hypothesizing that

[01:17:18] maybe he got his hands on some Sith artifacts. Maybe this could be the source of them if possibly. I like that something. I do know that all players of the Jedi games know is that when they talked about them slicing the platform what they mean is basically

[01:17:34] hacking into it to open it. Yeah, I was I was watching this episode rewatching it with my wife last night. I had to be like yes slicing is hiking heads hacking rather. Yeah. Yeah, because because that's just a weird Star Wars word, right? Right exactly.

[01:17:50] So now you know if you hear them talking about slicing something they've like broken in basically would you call it what may does how she gets out of her room is that slicing when she kind of hot wires whatever that weird portal opening was to me slicing

[01:18:06] is when you use a droid or a droid are or a droid arm for some characters to actually like input yourself into the interface like go into the interface. I think I think that's what hacking would be right or is that a different word that I can't think

[01:18:26] of right now. Yeah, I mean is it yeah is it mechanical although it is interesting by the way the fact that OSHA did that we're seeing the fact that she becomes a mechnik later makes sense. Apparently she was mechanically minded as a child as well.

[01:18:44] But yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure where slice it just I know slicing opens doors when you tell your droid to do it in the game. Okay, I'm in I'm in the Canon Wookiee pedia and it's telling me that a slicer is specifically basically somebody who can

[01:19:03] hack and things so this is not just standard mechanical. Yeah, yeah, but computer. Yes. Okay, and then the Anastasia calls them out not only for trespassing but yeah and in Dara's like sorry we thought this planet was uninhabited a first of all.

[01:19:18] Yeah, I'm gonna say is like basically like lie better bitch, but also she was clearly talking about your trespassing on our property that you just broke into don't play dumb. Yeah, and and she goes you can't deny that that first of all she

[01:19:33] in Dara's really infuriating her because in Dara says, oh well Republic all states and she goes this isn't the Republic. Yeah, we're not members absolutely true like stop. Yeah again imperialism. I brought that up earlier. This is absolute imperialism and then oh, can we go among your

[01:19:49] lung younglings? We have the right they say that and I think that's where I take big issue with it. They say we have the right to test Padawans like yeah, no, you don't know that rubbed me the wrong way to yeah, and and

[01:20:02] yeah, so I totally disagree with how they went about this. I mean approaching them is one thing but hacking into them especially like during their religious ceremony. I mean think about we consider that war crimes today when you like attack people on their holidays.

[01:20:18] Yeah, and this this is that right like interrupting a ritual and that's that's terrible. I just I don't like the Jedi at all here soul is the only one who gets a pass. And even he's like he's not perfect either. I'm curious about Karnaka.

[01:20:35] I haven't made my up my mind about him. I want to like him because of the Wookiee Jedi-ness. Well, he hasn't said much anyway. Yeah, and he seems like a nice guy when he declined to rip the arms off of those people who intruded on him last episode.

[01:20:48] Funny. He just takes the takes the blasters. That's fair. Did you did you get a look at his Hiltz? I forgot to look more closely to see whether it was what didn't look either. Okay, we got to pay attention next episode, but I didn't notice

[01:21:05] that the Hiltz are thicker and I looked it up apparently it's because they so the in-universe stories like this is back in time the Hiltz are designed differently fine, but it's actually because they changed the way that they film with the lightsabers.

[01:21:20] So they have like these glowing sticks now and they put the battery packs inside the Hiltz. So it helps them like be more natural with the way they hold it and use it. That makes sense. Yeah. Do you think that Anasea that she messed with Torben's mind

[01:21:36] because he was the weakest? Yeah, probably especially I think she recognizes the parental vibe between Masters and Padawan and she's like, okay, that one has to braid. Let's do it. Right? They seem to know about Jedi, right? Like they seem to know something about their ways at least.

[01:21:53] So I think they said let's attack the one that they probably feel most protective over. Right? No, I think yeah, they probably had run-ins with the Jedi before. Right, right. Perhaps that's part of their exile. Exactly. Although it is noticeable that Torben got the black eyes like

[01:22:12] we saw Mae get in Osha's vision last week. So I'm still watching out like has Mae been mind-controlled at some point in this story. Right? Right. That's interesting. Let's take a another quick break and then come back to talk about

[01:22:28] the end of the episode with the testing and everything that goes down after that. We'll be right back. This summer we enter a new era of Star Wars. You mean the dawn of the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast?

[01:22:58] Yeah, yeah, sure that too but I was obviously talking about the acolyte. We've got to cover that on the Lorehounds. Oh, but the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast is exactly at that point in the timeline, the end of the High Republic 100 years before the prequel trilogy.

[01:23:12] We've got to cover it there. Why not both? Okay, deal. It's the first live-action Star Wars outside the Skywalker Saga. Nobody can miss this. Listeners kick off your hot lore summer weekends with scene-by-scene breakdowns of the acolyte found in both the Star Wars Canon Timeline

[01:23:33] podcast and the Lorehounds mother feed. And the Lorehounds Star Wars feed. Wherever you like to listen a couple of days after each new episode is released. Hot Lore Summer! As the children sleep after this ascension gone wrong, the adults discuss strategy.

[01:24:08] Korra wants to kill the Jedi but the rest worry about reprisals from the Republic and Elder suggests that the girls pretend to fail and the next morning both agree to do so, Osha reluctantly. May is tested first, presumably following the instructions to pretend

[01:24:22] to fail and then it's Osha's turn. She's surprised by a blood test and then asked to identify images on a screen that Sol can see and she cannot. Following instructions, she gets the answers wrong intentionally and

[01:24:36] Sol tells her her wrong answers are correct until she slips up starting to say, but that's not right. And the cheek is off. I love that. Hey, wait a minute. That was supposed to be wrong. Also, I did zoom in on Kelmaka.

[01:24:48] I can't tell if I'm looking at a flashlight or a lightsaber, but it is metal, whatever I'm looking at. It looks small. So I'm like, I don't know if I don't know if that's just a flashlight or

[01:25:02] something, a tool because he's working on his speeder when there's a close-up on him. They didn't say Wookiees had to have wooden hilts. Just that they generally get common. Yeah, because I think the line is that like the Wookiees are uncommon

[01:25:21] force users like they're uncommon Jedi, but when they are Jedi, they commonly take a wooden lightsaber. Right. Right. But yeah, I think that the Jedi, they obviously already knew that the girls were force-sensitive. So especially with the blood test, it just seems really pointless for

[01:25:40] them to pretend not to be. Right, right. Well, but they also don't know what that's about, right? Like I think that this force cult or force coven does not worry about the blood. They just worry about the power of many.

[01:25:53] So who do you think would win in a fight? The Jedi or these witches? Oh, it seems like the Jedi based on the outcome if there was a fight. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, yeah, well we'll get to what happened there. Okay.

[01:26:09] So back in the coven compound, Osha tells Anaseya that she wants to become a Jedi and Mei gets upset and Coral drags Mei out of the room. And Anaseya tells Osha to pull the thread if that's what she wants, even

[01:26:23] though it means they'll never see each other again. Fear should not make this decision, Osha, she says. You should. And Osha says she wants to be a Jedi, period. And Anaseya hugs her with sad eyes and says she must discuss the situation with the rest of the coven.

[01:26:38] So the fact she got a blood test seems like no point to pretend to fail. But I do question Anaseya. She says as you grow what you want, it changes, it shifts. So this makes me ask would the witches give her more flexibility than

[01:26:54] the Jedi or is she just, you know, trying to pull the threads herself to influence her daughter? Good question. I think Anaseya would give her flexibility. I don't think Coral would. Right. I do think that there's some like, I don't think that the Force

[01:27:14] Witches reject the light side. I think they just are not afraid of the dark side. Hmm. Yeah. No, I'm like I said, purple. I think that they're actually using both. Right? So I think I think she's basically saying like if they are both twins

[01:27:33] or clones or whatever they are, perhaps the reality is that Osha is drawn to the light side and Mae is drawn to the dark. Right. Could be. And now I'm looking at Kelnaka at a at the premiere and I'm seeing a copper, a copper-ish worn.

[01:27:53] What's cool is that you have the... Or could it be polished wood? No, it's definitely metal. I'm looking at it. It's definitely it looks copper-ish in the middle like where he would hold it. And then it looks gold on the other side.

[01:28:06] So I think it's gold-plated copper, which is pretty cool. Right. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. I like that detail. Speaking of we got other details. So we found out Saul was tested at age four, which is more typical for the Jedi.

[01:28:19] And we've... So this is all he's ever known. He barely remembers his parents. And we also got a... Osha, like they show her considering whether or not to take some stuffed blue horses with her, which I guess shows that she feels she's grown up by leaving them behind.

[01:28:37] But a lot of people are wondering if the blue horses... They're saying they look like they might be from Planet X, which is a planet in Wild Space. So that's like basically off the edge of the map.

[01:28:48] We talked about that in previous episodes and that is where the leveler comes from. Oh, you talked about earlier this episode. Yeah, I knew it came from Wild Space because I went on Wikipedia for a minute. I just needed to get an image of this thing. Right.

[01:29:06] It was so like wildly described in the book. I called it like a Cthulhu hound. Yeah, it was bizarre. So I was like, I need an image for my head and I saw Wild Space and I was like, oh, that's cool. That's a cool origin for it. Yeah.

[01:29:19] So I wonder if this was a hint that these witches have a tie with this planet somehow. Which, this planet of course had, you know, the Nihil did stuff there and that's all part of the High Republic books. Yeah. So what went down?

[01:29:35] This is the event that I think we're going to be coming back and visiting a couple more times. But we see it this time from Osha's perspective. She's alone in her room and she packs her bags to go and Mei comes

[01:29:48] barging in telling Osha she won't let her leave. She'll kill her to stop her. She locks her sister into her room and setting the sketchbook where she drawn the Jedi insignia on fire, which lights the entrance to her room on fire.

[01:30:01] But Osha manages to hotwire this weird portal in her room and gets out and she's walking through some underground passageways and hears a large explosion and then screams of the coven and then there's an even larger explosion and Osha meets her sister on a

[01:30:19] bridge where in a bridge inside the compound that's been blown in half and each stands on one side blaming the other for what's happened. And when they fall, Saul is able to rescue Osha but not Mei and he

[01:30:31] drags Osha out of the complex, which is now has fire all over the place past a pile of the coven's bodies including Mother Anasea. So, yeah, I mean this is obviously we're going to see this again, but like that little door fire doesn't seem like it could be

[01:30:50] connected with the explosions and what happened to the coven. Yeah, it's a good question and and there's there's something missing here. I totally agree with all that speculation. This definitely was leaning towards Osha's POV and why she trusts

[01:31:09] the Jedi because she didn't see them do anything sketch as the kids. But I wonder whose POV we will see next. I don't think Mei's POV will be next episode, but I was wrong about this episode too. I think I think we'll see it in a couple episodes.

[01:31:24] I think we need to revisit. Yeah, I think we'll go back to and see what's up with Kelnaka in the modern timeline. Yeah. Yeah, but I even wonder like we don't know did the explosion even have anything to do with the witches deaths if they are dead because

[01:31:40] Saul did not let Osha stop and check and they do not seem to be burned. They just seem to be dead. So could they have been poisoned by the Bunta? And if so, by whom? And what they all screamed at one point. So I don't know.

[01:31:57] I will say even if Mei didn't cause the whole fire. I mean, I almost wrote a song of Mei didn't start the fire, but I decided to do a different one. There's a hot lore summer song coming.

[01:32:11] I posted about like the did the Jedi start the fire on threads and then I think like six people responded with with references to that song. It's great. It's great. So anyway, I may did start the fire.

[01:32:27] She started a fire and with the intent to kill her sister, which is pretty dark. I mean, it's really if I can't have you no one can right, which is awful and and very, very dark side. My God, unless she was being controlled, but her eyes were not

[01:32:42] black. Yeah, her eyes weren't, but I don't think she was being controlled. I really don't. I think I think may just has this darkness within her. So one important question though is coral was not in the pile of bodies. So where is coral? Good question.

[01:33:01] Coral Coruscant just I don't know. I don't know. Maybe she joins the death of Mary, which is it's also very interesting how much Saul saving OSHA here off the edge of the bridge looks like Saul saving OSHA.

[01:33:16] We saw in episode two off the edge of that cliff and someone said that they thought they saw OSHA's feet get swept out under her when she like weirdly fell off the cliff during that episode.

[01:33:27] So I that seems like a stretch, but I'm just pointing it out because What if this that was created then by like even Indara was standing there. What if she did something like that? So Saul would save OSHA.

[01:33:40] So the OSHA would go back to trusting Saul in the modern timeline. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I don't think that soul. I don't think OSHA did distrust soul already. I think she was no. I think she felt like she didn't fit in with the Jedi.

[01:33:57] I don't think it was that she didn't trust them because she even when she's on the prison ship, she's like, oh, I trust the Jedi. I'll get justice things like that. Like but she did run after the crash when they were looking for her in the wreckage.

[01:34:08] But I think that was not about soul. That was about the others that he was with. I think maybe she doesn't interest in Dara. I would believe that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that might be true. Doesn't really matter anymore. Indara's gone.

[01:34:23] Well, yeah, but not in the past. Indara started the fire. I was really glad to get science fiction royalty, which I'll introduce her as every time. Carrie-Anne Moss for another episode. She was great again. Yeah, and I think we'll get more.

[01:34:37] I also have to point out that she had this time. She had that one dot next to her eye. And when we saw her later in the timeline when she died, she had two dots next to her eye.

[01:34:45] I don't know what that means, but definitely something because why would they do that? Otherwise? Yeah. But okay. So the final scenes of this is OSHA wakes up on the Jedi ship on their way to Coruscant, tended to by Sol who informs her that she will be his

[01:35:01] Padawan. And when she asks after her mother and Mae, she's told they'll be gone. I don't think she asked about Coral, by the way, but anyway. And meanwhile, a soot-covered Mae, very much alive, shows up at the Bunta tree on Brendok looking for her sister.

[01:35:15] So Sol's really the one who solidified the version of events that adult OSHA has in her head. Like Mae started the fire. Everybody's dead. He started the fire. I'll resist. I'll resist. And of course he has that that bullshit line that David called out.

[01:35:34] You will never feel like this again. I promise which is yeah, I mean, I mean maybe a very tiny child. You say that I just. I don't think that's a responsible thing to say to an eight-year-old

[01:35:46] maybe no, maybe it is if you're a Jedi and you're literally going to train her not to feel emotion. Well, okay. Yeah, maybe that's a negative emotions. Right. Maybe that maybe that is the point. You will not feel this again because you won't feel you'll be dead inside.

[01:36:01] No, sorry. I don't think the Jedi are evil. I think they're complex. Yeah, and I think that they they have a lot of issues with righteousness and feeling like they have the only answer. And that's unfortunate. That's unfortunate. I'm glad that we're exploring those themes. Finally. Mm-hmm.

[01:36:21] I I love soul. I want him around forever. I want to watch a spinoff with him in Qui-Gon Jinn. And that's all that's all I want to say. So I have to point out in this last scene where OSHA wakes up on the ship in the background.

[01:36:37] We see Indara and Torben. We do not see Kalnaka. So he's not in sight not saying anything but and we also there is a wound a slash wound down Torben's face. So we see him scarred when we saw him later in the timeline.

[01:36:53] So he has during these events. That's where he got that wound. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean was there a fight then? The other thing is it has to be someone who was not part of the coven right?

[01:37:07] Who is the master who is OSHA's master because she doesn't know who it is or is it one of the coven that put on a mask? That's Maze Master you mean? Yeah. I mean, yeah, Maze Master. I'm sorry. But yeah, it could be anyone inside the mask.

[01:37:20] Could be now a lot of people are saying Coral which I don't know maybe. I don't think Coral's that vengeful. I think Coral would have wanted them to leave again, you know, try to restart. I don't know Coral is not in the bodies at the end.

[01:37:33] So that's true. Coral story is not done in some way. Oh boy. Are we stannising this? You don't see someone die. So they're not dead. Hey, that's always my role. Star Wars has been ridiculous with that rule recently.

[01:37:50] I mean, I know even if you're happy about a certain recent development and I am too. But they said it. I've always said that that was going to happen because they set it up in a certain book with the way they described things.

[01:38:04] Okay, obviously we're definitely that book is getting an entire episode to itself by the way. Of course it is a minor spinoff book is going to get a whole It's not a minor spinoff book. It's an essential book. Do what you want. It's an essential book.

[01:38:20] No, it's a lot of people's favorite. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Okay, so I want to dip into just a little light trailer based speculation. This is gonna be a short section, but I will put the timestamps in the notes for anyone who wants to skip this part.

[01:38:38] But I just have to say that there's a trailer going around where we see it looks like Kalnaka attacks Torben. So that would explain the wound on his face, which could be a lightsaber slash. But why is the question indeed?

[01:38:53] What did Torben do or what did Kalnaka do that Torben tried to stop him from? Right, exactly. And did Kalnaka just I did he just not go back with them after whatever happened at these events? Like is he has he been on Khofar ever since?

[01:39:08] And why did Torben wake six years before he started his vow of silence thing? Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wonder if if he found out Mae was alive later or I don't know. I don't know. And is Kalnaka just writing like Sri Wuk poetry on this planet

[01:39:27] for all this time? Like what is he doing? Oh, yeah, I need the poet Wookie. Um, yeah. So I wonder if Torben indeed found out things six years later that he might not have known at the time.

[01:39:43] Yeah, I think maybe he learns that Mae was alive or something like that and that they left her there. Right? So I think episode five. Just to finish that thought because he does say I've been waiting for you Mae. Right, exactly.

[01:39:59] So I'm wondering if he found out six years later that Mae was alive and other stuff. And that's when he you know, and he something whatever it is. He can't he thinks he's culpable enough that he doesn't even want to confess. He just wants to end it.

[01:40:14] I think Mae or Coral sent out a burn book about all the things that happened. That's what happened. So fugly. Apparently the word on the street is that episode five is going to be the one that everyone's going to be talking about.

[01:40:31] So I'm guessing we're going to get some major reveals then probably see this scene of the crime from another perspective. And one other thing I wanted to shout out is I'm really looking forward to there's been a lot of hype about a new character

[01:40:44] creature character like a cute cuddly one. I guess we're probably going to fall in love with called basil or basal not sure how they're gonna pronounce it made by Neil Scanlan who's like one of the greatest creature creators. So I'm super looking forward to that.

[01:40:58] I'm hoping he shows up next episode. I think I think so because I think the people who got the first four screeners talked about him. Can I just say my wish for the season? Yes, I want yodel. I want her to show up.

[01:41:11] I she's not she's not going to show up this this season because Leslie Headland specifically said that Vanessa was going to be the only big crossover and I'm pretty sure she confirms no Yoda this season which Yoda and yaddle they're out doing their thing.

[01:41:27] But she said no Yoda. Look, I've gotten a lot of Yoda in my life. Yeah, we need more yaddle but she said season two there would be more crossovers. I like that. We need season two to happen.

[01:41:39] Yeah, and I think it's fine to like let the new characters breathe a minute before you write reduce new people but that's fine, right? So shall we check in with the community see what everyone else thought of this episode would love anyone who wants to

[01:41:53] share their thoughts for future episodes. You can a couple people tagged us on the discord. I don't have time to go through the whole discord and pull things out because it's just been so lively the conversation there but you can also if you definitely want your comments

[01:42:10] included, please email them to you have two possible options SW timeline podcast at gmail.com or Star Wars at the lower hounds.com. That first email is a mouthful. It's shorter than the name of the podcast. Yeah, there you go.

[01:42:28] I like to talk fast with lots of syllables. So it's fun for me. That's fair. That's fair. So we so that's what you said that I reread souls Darth Vader issues as a fact-finding mission. So Darth Vader set later in the timeline these this comic

[01:42:46] books, but Darth Vader doesn't take a weapon to fight but he does use one. He finds against the Jedi the Emperor tells him his Sith Saber must be taken not sure if this sheds any light, but I figured it couldn't hurt.

[01:42:58] So yeah, so maybe there's some precedence to this idea about Sith having to take their weapons. That is interesting. I still am Sith skeptical Sith Sith-tical. All right, anyway, because I just doesn't feel very city to me to be like attack me with all your strength.

[01:43:16] And if you don't think that that lines going in the song, it's going in the song. It's already in the song. Yeah, I mean it does we were told like that. This is the Sith. We're more or less told this this is going to be about a

[01:43:30] Sith perspective, but I still think I'm leaning toward like this is people who found Sith artifacts and are you know, like some of these ideas make sense and let's see what we do with them. Yeah, there were a lot of Sith writings, right?

[01:43:42] Like I think Revan became kind of a legend suited Bane. Right and then things just got a little quiet for a while. Yeah. I mean, I do think that we are going to see at least I think

[01:43:58] we're going to by the end of this season at least get a nod toward Plagueis who's the most famous Sith during this time or his master Tenebrous. But I don't think that that's I think that's probably not who's in the mask. No, I agree with that.

[01:44:15] And I mean, have you have you ever heard of the tragedy of Darth Plagueis? We're going to talk about that a lot in areas to come. Specifically the next one. Yeah. Do you want to give people a new voice to listen to and read Rocky Zim? Sure.

[01:44:34] Rocky Zim frequent contributor. Hello there. I wanted to chime in with my thoughts on Acolyte Ep 3. I shared a bit on Discord. So maybe a bit repetitive. I enjoyed this episode and how it addressed the issue about Jedi taking children to be tested in Dara telling mother

[01:44:53] she cannot deny the Jedi the right to test for potential Padawans and then adding with your permission, of course, just sounds a bit sketchy that the Jedi can come and just test a young kid with powers say they can have a lightsaber

[01:45:07] and be a ninja tell them they are special and can have a big brother sister or other being to hang out with seems having a young child make that decision or have some say in it is a bit sketchy, which is like what you said, Jim.

[01:45:22] Yeah, this is this is basically my perspective so far. What kid wouldn't want to cool sword and be a ninja Samurai, but yeah, yep. Yep. The Jedi saying we don't take kids but then saying they cannot deny the right to test them is a bit if yeah, maybe

[01:45:40] not take them but you test them and give them a whole PowerPoint on how cool it is to be a Jedi. I like the PowerPoint. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was that was a good that was a good one. I am thinking that coral may have gotten everyone killed

[01:45:55] on Brendach. Yeah, may started a fire but doesn't seem that would kill every one of the witches that quickly based on how the scene went. Coral was pretty mad and carried OSHA so I can see her taking

[01:46:09] action that led to what happened in the end and I am thinking maybe coral somehow survives and finds me and trains her to get revenge on all the Jedi. How would anyone else know who is all there make it tell

[01:46:21] the Dark Lord, but I am thinking it may be coral may may could tell the Dark Lord, but I'm not sure I'm understanding the sentence rocking them. That's all right though. Wait, but I think wait, so I think that the idea is like

[01:46:38] how does the Dark Lord know things? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, may yeah. Yeah. Yeah may could tell the Dark Lord. I thought we were talking about the identity. That's why I was confused soul. I knows I think what led to the incident but did not know

[01:46:54] all the witches died until they saw them running. Well, I saw them all running to the ship. Anyway, I am enjoying this so far. I do believe that these witches are what is left of the path

[01:47:05] and had to hide after I assume losing a battle or war to the Jedi or and the Republic for light in life. Rocky's him. You could see how the mother and the Jedi were working to encourage OSHA to join their side by saying she is special.

[01:47:22] She can have powers and not be alone. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Thanks. Rocky's them. I agree with pretty much all your takes although I I'm not on team Coral as the Sith Lord. No, there's something I mean, maybe I'm only not on that

[01:47:39] team because the fact they're pointing at that in episode three. It feels like to me tells tells me that no, that's not the answer because we have five more episodes. Yeah, but I'm still I'm looking askance like what happened to her? Yeah, definitely.

[01:47:56] Well Marilyn our favorite Tolkien scholar wrote it and I think we should invite her on for like a season wrap up or something like that. Yeah, we have to talk which is yeah. Yeah, because Marilyn for those who don't know she's not

[01:48:06] only a Tolkien scholar, but she does have a lot of a background in and women's history and witchcraft. Yeah, so she asks so I would love to know what the difference is between force magic and the force.

[01:48:20] Is it in how you do it a different philosophy actual tangible differences between the two energies that they are all using need some clarity here from what I know of ritual magic practices. I would guess the energy itself is considered to be one and

[01:48:35] the same energy and then with the differences in the details of how they approach it invoke or engage with it direct or use it and merge or not with it. Yeah, I mean so as we talked about this a lot but just in

[01:48:49] this episode, but just to summarize a bit so it sounds like well, yeah, basically they say it the thread is what they call the force. So they're talking about the same thing by different names which also reminds me of the Wheel of Time again where you

[01:49:03] have different schools of magic and if you are taught to do it like like the ice that I are taught to do things with a lot of hand gestures. And so if they lose their hands for any reason they can't recreate it.

[01:49:16] Whereas other groups of magic users don't use the hand gestures. They're accessing the same power, but the fact that they use it differently. Yeah, just comes out looking different. So the witches they're still using the force, but it just the

[01:49:32] way that they access it the way they their philosophy about it obviously has some overlap with certain Jedi thinkings, but they just the way they use it makes it look different and come to different results. Yeah, and I'd say it's also the lack of fear of the dark,

[01:49:51] you know this this idea. That's a big difference. It all it's a more holistic view of the force. Mm-hmm. But then also George Lucas has weird statements that like the light side is balance right? And I know ignoring that. No, I don't I don't agree with that George.

[01:50:07] I know you made the world but I just don't agree with that. I mean as everything that happens in Star Wars basically contradicts that is about the right between the light and he just says some weird stuff. Sometimes he's so good at world building.

[01:50:19] Like I always say put him in a room and just make him sketch out worlds for like right the rest of his life. Like don't don't let him write a single story, right? Well now I want that room to be him Dave Filoni and Leslie

[01:50:32] Headland and actually Gilroy can be in there to the and or right? Love it. We love it. Shall I read the last email or would you like to please? All right, it's your podcast. Well, we'll talk a lot about lore people want to hear your voice.

[01:50:50] Eric F says hi all regarding the braids that Jedi Padawans wear it's it appears that they are more a tradition than a requirement as some Padawans wore them with insistence while others resisted per Wikipedia in Canon Padawan braids were a symbol of rank

[01:51:07] used to distinguish apprentices within the Jedi Order. They were lengths of intricately woven hair typically worn across the right shoulder Padawans which belong to species that did not grow hair on their heads would wear alternatives such as silica beads as mentioned by Alicia.

[01:51:25] Some Jedi initiates begin to grow their braids before risk before their apprenticeship even began as was the case with youngling Caleb Dune. That's someone we'll meet later in the timeline. Mm-hmm after achieving the rank of Jedi Knight, the braids

[01:51:40] would be removed Padawans who were expelled from the order would have their braids ripped off. That sounds violent. An example would be redacted when she was framed for redacted a character who yeah gets in trouble with the Jedi for something she didn't do right?

[01:52:01] Even when she was cleared, she refused the beads during the High Republic era Masters could decide whether they wanted their Padawans to wear braids or not. Fun fact, Ewan McGregor stated that the crew were looking for a military center or something in the world of monks for his

[01:52:18] hairstyle in episode 1. McGregor said that the braid is the equivalent to monks who shave their heads. Yeah, keep up the excellent work more kind words and and Eric you reach out whenever is good for you. That's all I'll say. Yeah, you don't apologize for taking time.

[01:52:36] It's okay, right? We're glad to hear from you lore master Erica. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, this is a excellent detail about the Padawan braids, but I do wonder if they will they might go even greater into

[01:52:52] lore depth at some point and say like if there are three beads here that means blah blah blah. Yeah. Yeah. And what I'm I hope not with that because it might be a little too much at that point, you know, I don't know. I don't know.

[01:53:05] There's there's always like you can have extra lore as long as it's not like necessary to the understanding of the story like that way people who are like us and like to learn all the Lord and be satisfied but you have like a surface little story.

[01:53:18] No, that feels like something that would like show up as a detail in a book that a character is thinking about like, oh now I get my third red bead or whatever, right? Probably not read. All right, that concludes our feedback and

[01:53:32] yeah, we've had a nice long chat this episode. I think that that's a good sign of the show that it just inspires such deep discussion like the fact that David wanted to jump on here and like say the things he was thinking. Yeah, I I'm loving the show.

[01:53:47] I think it's it's my so far if this keeps up the quality, I think it'll be my second favorite live-action Star Wars show after after and or the maybe it gets a pass and or if it goes really well, I don't know. Yeah.

[01:54:02] No, I mean this is poised to this could be one of my top three shows of the year so far the other two being Shogun and Interview with a Vampire. So that's high compliment. Nice. Nice. Yeah. So for listeners at home then we'll see you back here on

[01:54:21] this feed whichever one you're listening on for these weekly releases, but also on the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast there will be mailbag episodes for each of the previous eras coming so do send in your feedback for that and next week.

[01:54:36] We're going to do that midseason subscriber chat about how these events link up with later in the timeline, which will be on the which will be for subscribers of both Star Wars Canon Timeline and for lorehound subscribers now. Yes. So subscribers Star Wars Canon Timeline.

[01:54:54] What does that mean? I started a new Canon Padawan supercast that you'll find that link in the show notes and subscribers there will get early ad-free access you get the feed and release order because in the main feed I'm going to be backdating episodes to release

[01:55:11] to have them line up in the right timeline order for the in universe. So this also means in the that subscribers will get get to hold on to older episodes once a replaced like the intro episodes going to be replaced in the near future and also extra episodes

[01:55:26] like these deeper spoilers discussions and other planned extras to come so and also not to mention that supporting the podcast allows me to keep it going all the way to the end. So the more people who join the more extras I can offer anyone

[01:55:40] who wants to consider it you'll find that link in the show notes and much appreciated for that. And yes, we'll ship dust members. I will be soon offering a supercast version of the book club with an option to combine subscriptions at a reduced price

[01:55:56] talking to supercast about that and I will make more announcements about that in the near future. Speaking of will shift dust there will soon be an interview with Glamitzara co-showrunner of season 2 of beacon 23 and also there will be a book club episode covering second shift the

[01:56:17] second part of the shift book in the silo series and John what else is going on on the other feeds so much too much maybe but we love it. I know Aaron and and chase are going to be doing the boys starting this weekend.

[01:56:33] I might I think I'm going to hop on with them. I'm pretty hot on the boys right now. Yeah, I just watched any episodes because they just started they just dropped like a few hours ago. Oh shoot.

[01:56:43] Oh man and Bridgerton just dropped to I have to like cover my eyes until this week and I'm too busy. So yeah, I'm I'm pretty hot on the boys. I think I'm going to hop on with them sometime.

[01:56:55] So if you want my opinion, you'll have to go to the radioactive ramblings feed and rings and rituals has a new episode out episode 7 chapter 7 VI. They're covering the penultimate episode of season 1 of rings of power, which I thought was a great episode in general.

[01:57:11] And yeah, I hope I hope you'll tune into that. It's Marilyn Arbukila who you heard from in the feedback and dr. Sarah Brown of signum University analyzing the rings of power through the lens of ritual. Properly Howard movie review is doing their felony zoofugee

[01:57:29] zee season and they just did a cousin visiting my cousin Vinny. Yeah, great great movie. I can't wait to listen to that one. I still haven't had a chance but yeah, great stuff going on on all the feeds for our feed.

[01:57:43] Of course, you know, we're doing the acolyte the main lore feed we are doing house of the dragon starting this weekend again too busy and we are doing dr. Who dr. Who those are our main things. I'm also pre recording a bunch of similar lien stories so that

[01:57:58] those will come out monthly and we don't have to worry about it during hot lore summer and yeah, a lot of a lot of good stuff coming. I know David's working on some new projects with the collaboration and I'm excited to hear that and yeah, stay subscribed and

[01:58:15] get in any feedback about interview with the vampire. We're going to be wrapping up the season start of July with a one shot. Yeah, yeah and listen to vampire insiders weekly breakdowns about that show. Okay. Well, I guess that brings us to the people who make this

[01:58:32] possible on the lower hound side. So we're going to shout out our discord server boosters who make all that run more smoothly. Thank you. Gnarls Aaron K. Tiller the thriller dork of the ninjas doof71 captain Gingy56 and Athena Agilea and thank you so much, especially

[01:58:49] to our lore masters who make it possible for us to record and do all the things that we do to technically make this possible, especially and that's Samartian Michael G. Michelle E. David W. Brian P. Nick WSC Peter OH Bettina W. Adam S. Nancy M.

[01:59:07] Doof71 Brian8063 Frederick H. Sarah L. Gareth C. Eric F. Matthew M. Sarah M. DJ Miwa Andre B. Kwong U. Jedi Jedi Bob Nathan T. Alex V. Aaron T. Sub-Zero Aaron K. Dally V. Mothership61 Gnarls. Kathy W. And Adrian always last.

[01:59:32] So thank you so much and thank you John again for another excellent breakdown. Thank you for doing the outline and running this whole show. It's a it's a honestly, it's more relaxing to podcast when I'm not like the primary just showing up to hang out. I know.

[01:59:52] I know. I just I just had you know what? I'll plug this to while we're here. I just did in a guest spot on the lore of the Rings podcast with Aaron who's been on our some early in stories and that

[02:00:04] was so fun to just like pop in and talk about Tolkien for an hour and then leave. Yeah. No, I agree. Yep. Yeah. Well, I'm enjoying shepherding through this process. Very nice. Well, thank you for being our guide and no problem for light and life.

[02:00:22] The Lore Hounds podcast is produced and published by the Lore Hounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact get early and add free access to all Lore Hounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lore

[02:00:36] Hounds and connect with us on Twitter at the Lore Hounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening.