Silmarillion Stories - E15 - The Return of the Noldor Part 2

[00:00:00] This summer, we enter a new era of Star Wars. You mean the dawn of the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast? Yeah, yeah sure, that too. But I was obviously talking about the Acolyte. We've got to cover that on The Lorehounds.

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[00:01:27] Welcome to Silmarillion Stories, where The Lorehounds, your guides to Tolkien's world of Middle-earth. I'm Jon, and this is our podcast for Of the Return of the Noldor Part 2, the 15th portion of The Silmarillion.

[00:01:39] In this episode, we're going to be discussing the Third Battle of Beleriand and the Siege of Angband. If you want to get in on the Tolkien Talk, please send an email to lotr at thelorehounds.com. Visit our website where we have a contact form and a voicemail feature.

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[00:02:37] Okay, with me today is a returning guest, Anthony Ledon from Properly Howard Movie Review and Electric Boogaloo. Anthony, welcome back. I'm glad to be back and I've invited a friend. You have. Okay.

[00:02:54] So with me, a repeat guest on Electric Boogaloo from back in the day, Professor Chad Carmichael, professor of philosophy and also a lover of all things Tolkien. Would that be fair to say, Chad? All things is very broad. I do like Lord of the Rings.

[00:03:21] Are you a big Gawain the Green Knight fan? I don't know. Not a big... I'm largely ignorant. Beowulf translations and... Yeah, yeah. No, I also don't like some of the newer shows and stuff like that. Gotcha. Now, the newer shows are coming out soon. Is that right?

[00:03:44] I'm not up on my latest news, John. August 29th, we already did a trailer reaction where we did a full shot by shot analysis of what we think it might be based on Silmerlian nonsense. Do we have hope that there will be improved writing on this show?

[00:04:03] I hope so. It does seem like we're going into the Annatar plotline, if you're familiar with that one from the Second Age writings of Tolkien. We are going full into elvish politics next season, and I'm excited for it. You know what? I will tune in again.

[00:04:21] I was not super... I mean, I liked a few episodes. I will say that. I liked a few episodes. I'm willing to give them another shot. Man, these elves and their politics, John. What can you say?

[00:04:38] You can say a lot, and that's what we're going to do today. This is the second part of The Return of the Noldor. It was originally going to be included in my last podcast where I had tea with Tolkien

[00:04:50] as a guest, but I tried to outline it as one podcast, and I said this is going to be a two-hour podcast. Here we are doing part two, and I'm glad that we did it because they are...

[00:05:01] It's a really long chapter compared to the chapters coming before this, and there's a lot of meat to it. We did the whole second battle of Beleriand last time. We had the Noldor come in.

[00:05:14] We had Thingol be a little bratty about it, and now we are going into post-Noldor arrival. How did they get settled in Beleriand a little bit, and what happens with the different sieges, how the different houses of the Noldor interact? It's a lot of nonsense.

[00:05:32] Anthony, I know you've given your background on the Silmarillion before. Can I ask Chad what his background is on the Silmarillion and other Tolkien works? I'm interested enough that I own a copy, and I have read significant portions of it, but

[00:05:51] I confess that I'm a little bit of a newbie when it comes to the Silmarillion. That's okay. Now here's the thing about this. I wonder if... I don't want to take up too much of your time, John, but I wonder if we could talk about a

[00:06:06] few elements of the first half of the chapter before we dive into the meat of the second half of the chapter. Let's do it. Chad and I like to argue about Lord of the Rings stuff from time to time, and I've never

[00:06:23] actually gotten his opinion of Fëanor. I will say this. Fëanor is, I think, the most interesting elf in the whole book. He's fascinating. He's a believably gray character. He's got conflicting motives.

[00:06:47] He's got motives that maybe he doesn't know about, and then he's got motives that are on the surface, and he holds grudges, and he's discerning. He is the inventor of the Silmarils, which I kind of feel like is the prime mover of the story so far.

[00:07:06] Well, that is the name of the book. Right, right. So I want to ask you a question about that, but let me just say this. I do feel like the loss of Fëanor in the first half of the chapter is just a magnificent detriment to the story.

[00:07:24] Really? Oh yeah. I just feel like one of my most interesting characters is gone, and I've got to deal with the aftermath, and the world just seems more dull without Fëanor in it. I don't know. That's my sense of it. I hear you.

[00:07:44] To me, Fëanor is a tragic character, and he's a complex character, but I think his sons are more interesting to me. Maedhros, which we'll talk about in this chapter, is a really interesting character.

[00:07:58] His motivations are so conflicted, and I love the idea that these sons are trapped by this oath that they made to their father and that they reaffirmed in his dying wishes. The different ways that different sons of Fëanor deal with that current year is so different

[00:08:16] from Maedhros in that. We'll see how these different factions shake out. I think especially... Well, Cerenthir is just a punk. He is. He's just kind of an ass. That's my sense of it. And he continues to get into punkish antics.

[00:08:33] Fëanor was the same, but he had these amazing creative virtues to go with all of his punkiness. But he did his job already, right? He can't ever make that again. He made that very clear. Okay. Interesting. He can never make anything like the Silmarils again.

[00:08:52] Right, but he can create all kinds of havoc. He can, and his sons will continue to do that. But we've also got two other factions that we're starting to see how those factions start to fit into Balerion, right? That's the point of this second half of the chapter.

[00:09:09] Can the House of Fëanorfin separate itself enough from the House of Fëanor to intermingle with the Sindar elves? That's a tough question. Chad, you've read the... I know that you started with the beginning of the chapter. What was your feeling about the loss of Fëanor?

[00:09:29] It goes by pretty quickly, but I agree it's a huge deal. I think I agree with you. Maybe the most compelling character in the Silmarillion. And I just love... Now wait a second. I said most compelling elf in the Silmarillion. Yeah, fair enough. Who's your most compelling character?

[00:09:51] Who's your most compelling character? Hold on, hold on there. It's Beren. It's gotta be Beren. Beren? Yeah. Oh, I think Turin is much more interesting. I don't think he's a better person. Stay away from your sister. That's what I have to say.

[00:10:04] Well, all right, Mr. Game of Thrones over there. Sorry, Chad. I interrupted. Go ahead. I mean, it says of him that he was consumed by the flame of his own wrath. I mean, that's exciting language. That's more exciting language than you get about most characters in the Silmarillion.

[00:10:23] And I like this idea that he's sort of... He feels like a fundamentally or a character that started good, but he kind of went off the rails. And I just find that very compelling.

[00:10:39] He's like a rock star who's so consumed with his own creative spirit that he was bound to burn out. Can I read you a little? Go ahead. It's hard just to lose a sense that he's a good guy to me.

[00:10:53] I mean, I sort of like if I think in terms of Dungeons and Dragons or something, he seems sort of like a chaotic good character or something like that. I mean, look, he still wants to destroy Malkor. But for what reason?

[00:11:11] I think that's something central to Tolkien is what's in your heart while you do these acts. Very similar to Frodo and Smeagol. One big thing with Smeagol, Gollum in The Lord of the Rings is Tolkien is seeing it as the ring was going to get destroyed either way.

[00:11:31] But the difference is whether Gollum's soul was saved, basically. Whether Gollum turned around and he was like, oh, I'm going to help them. But no, he didn't. He did the wrong thing. Or what's in your heart when you first find the ring has some bearing on its influence

[00:11:48] over you or something like that. Right. Something like that. I thought it was interesting that the chapter kind of speculates almost about whether Malkor was scared when Feanor showed up. And it says no tale is told about what was in his heart. Right.

[00:12:12] And I just thought, no, he was definitely scared. You know? How could he not be? Yes. That and also you got to remember they come with the sun. The Noldor come with the first rising of the sun. And Malkor's whole army is based on darkness.

[00:12:29] Like he needs the darkness to sustain the orcs. So it's kind of like, are they bringing that? Like he doesn't know what's going on at that point. I don't know why Anthony doesn't really like elves very much.

[00:12:42] To me, it's very compelling the idea of an angry elf army showing up with fire in their flame of wrath consuming them. Okay. And they show up with the sun. I do not like elves.

[00:12:55] However, I will say, for instance, Caranthir is the perfect example of why elves are pieces of shit. But I will say this, that there's something really cool about Feanor and I just want to read this little portion. It comes from his death.

[00:13:11] It says, then he died, but he had neither burial nor tomb for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped from his body, his body fell to ash and was born away like smoke. And the likeness has, and his likeness has never again appeared in art.

[00:13:30] Neither as his spirit left the halls of Mandos. This ended the mightiest of the Noldor of whom D of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous. Whoa. I mean, talking so fantastic, but he reserves that kind of language just for the characters

[00:13:50] that he loves most. And I think that Feanor is one of those characters. I agree. You know, this, this actually goes back to a concept in Tolkien that's implicit mostly in the Silmarillion and in the main writings, but is spelled out in his extended writings

[00:14:06] that are published by Christopher after his death. This idea that elves have two elements to their being and so do men, but it's kind of to a lesser extent. Elves have this Hroa, which is their body energy and then Fea, which is their spirit energy.

[00:14:23] And to do great works, elves have to basically burn up their bodies with their spirit. And so the whole point here is Feanor just like goes out in such a blast that his anger

[00:14:38] and his wrath and his fury at being mortally wounded, just burn up his whole body. And that's awesome. And Feanor had more Hroa, Fea than basically anybody else because his mother. Yeah, his wife. Oh wait, was his wife or his mother? His mother died. His mother. Right.

[00:14:57] Pretty much right after he was born because she gave up so much of herself into the birth of him. Right. That she just couldn't sustain herself anymore. Yeah. Rockstar. This guy's a rockstar. I mean, he's, he's fantastic.

[00:15:11] And now that he's gone and we're dealing with the aftermath, you know, it's, it's, it's, I think it's a grievous loss to the story. Now of course we're not going to get to my favorite part of the story until another few

[00:15:28] chapters, but I did want to take a moment to sort of grieve the death, the fiery death of, of Feanor. Well, Rip, as they say. But it does make space for these characters of Fingon and Madras. I don't know. I probably don't pronounce them correctly, but.

[00:15:51] I don't pronounce Madras right either because it bothers me that the D H in Tolkien is supposed to be like the, so it's supposed to be like Mithros and that bothers me. So I don't do it. Right. Right. Interesting. Huh? Yeah. Now he is.

[00:16:08] But they're pretty cool, right? These characters that come into his place. The other thing, the other part of this chapter that I thought was fantastic that isn't part of the, that we're covering today, but you know, just the image of him hanging by his wrist from the cliff.

[00:16:26] Yes. And, and the connection that he makes with Finrod over the song, was it Finrod who was singing the song? Oh, oh right. Right. Right. And that's just, you get the idea that that song is sort of like deep in the psyche of elves from, from Valinor. Right.

[00:16:46] And then finding that reunion and immediately saying, kill me. Yeah. And then the prayer and then the rescue. I mean, that, that was just a really fantastic scene. Yeah. And it really felt very Greek to me.

[00:17:05] It felt like Orpheus and Eurydice, you know, just trying to find her in the underworld and beautiful, beautiful. It's a beautiful story. And of course, so, so now he's, he's he's got one hand and he's learning to fight with

[00:17:23] a sword in his left hand and he's even more deadly than before. And I guess de facto, he's sort of carrying the legacy of his father. And I guess, I guess, I suppose that's where we pick up. Fingon was so brave, right?

[00:17:39] And he forgives, he forgives this old friend. That was very moving to me. One of the rare times these elves make the right decision, right? Right. And well, I thought Majorist go ahead.

[00:17:52] Something like that was really the theme of the, of the chapter was this idea that a few key actors make good decisions and it, it really pays off. Hmm. Well, since we're just talking about the first half anyway, what do you think Chad of Majorist

[00:18:09] giving the kingship to Fingolfin, the father of Fingon? Yeah, I thought he was, I thought this was incredibly gracious of him to the way that he sort of conducts himself for the good of everybody and, and doesn't let the usual elven ego get in the way.

[00:18:29] And I, and I thought that you know, it was his kind of, it was, it was that kind of, that kind of lack of ego unusual in an elf, right? That led to a really good outcomes for everybody. Right.

[00:18:45] He goes out into this space where he's, according to the book, he's sort of unprotected. He takes the most kind of dangerous part of the land and clearly just keeps a watchful eye upon Angband for many centuries.

[00:19:00] And and just ignores the kind of various insults and, and sort of petty concerns of all the other actors that are involved. And, and it seemed to me that through these decisions, he was able to bring everybody together. Right?

[00:19:16] Yeah, it's, it's interesting because it does bring the Noldor more together, but it certainly adds more divisions to the sons of Feanor like Caranthir and a bunch of the other sons are like, what did you do? Cause this was our whole deal here.

[00:19:33] This is a Royal family, you know, we're getting ready for house of the dragon season two, Anthony. And I'm just thinking there's going to be a dance of the elves soon because nobody's happy about who's sitting in the throne of the Noldor.

[00:19:44] Well, it's one of these interesting bits of political theory that, you know, you Alliance tends to be viewed as a positive thing. Um, politically, but you almost have to make an enemy with any Alliance.

[00:20:00] Like if you, if you allow yourself with a particular people, now you're making their enemies your enemies. And also you might be creating more divisions with your own people that didn't want the Alliance. Right.

[00:20:14] And of course, Tolkien's world is really complex with this, you know, all of these various strands of elves and who came over to, you know, who came over the sea when, and who I've got a whole flow chart on it. Who's got, who's got ownership of the land.

[00:20:31] I mean, at the heart of this is just this land dispute. Like can this thing will have the authority to actually tell them where their borders are. And screw thing. I mean, that's basically the idea here. Right.

[00:20:50] And, and of course that you live forever and you hold a grudge forever in the Elvis in the, in the old Elvish tradition, I guess. Yeah. So thing though is a really interesting character because he was one of the big three.

[00:21:04] He was one of the three elves that went to Valinor to check it out, uh, to get the free sample before they brought over all the elves. And then he came back to transport everybody.

[00:21:15] But in the forest, he ran into one of the Meyer million and that became his wife and name from, from Elway to thing all. And he's King and I think this one, his marriage to one of the Meyer and his staying amongst

[00:21:33] elves that were considered lower than him because he had seen the light of the trees and they hadn't really makes him a very arrogant character and really makes him have this ego that makes it difficult for him to ally with anybody.

[00:21:46] And it's one of the major themes of Tolkien. He really likes that theme of marrying above your station. And um, he, you know, he'll does, he does this with a million he's gonna eventually, you know, uh, uh, Baron and Luthien has the same theme.

[00:22:05] We're going to find something similar with, you know, uh, uh, Eric Gorin and, and, uh, Aria wait, wait, Arwen, Arwen. So I'm universe. That's right. He really likes that. He really likes that.

[00:22:21] Um, uh, the woman is above your station and, and, and that marriage may bring about her mortality or may bring about tragedy, but, but I mean, that's, it's one of the most beautiful

[00:22:37] things in Tolkien's world is, is that you can set aside family for that kind of union at it. Very rare moments, but I think thing will continues to, uh, um, annoy me.

[00:22:54] Um, but I mean, it's not like these other guys are any much better, but, uh, the land dispute is, is ridiculous. Right? Balarian does basically wild. Give me a break. Yeah. Uh, so anyway, but made us laugh, right? Made us laugh saying, right.

[00:23:15] A King, a King is he that can hold his own or else his title is vain. Right. And he sort of just says, well, and then he goes on to explain, but like his, his, his ordering us around is absurd, but it really doesn't matter.

[00:23:29] Um, and it's to be expected, you know? Yeah. The question is who's the Kanye, sorry, who's the Kendrick and who's the Drake in this? Will's totally Drake in this, in this one. But yeah, but uh, what gets, what, what ruins the, the, the meeting is the calling out

[00:23:52] of, uh, is this, is this Karen Thier who says that he calls that basically mocks and Ang Rod's mother. He, there, there's something about Ang Rod's, uh, um, sort of hybridity that he's insecure about and they can, you know, we know, we know where your father comes from.

[00:24:09] He comes from where our father came from, but your mother is, you know, dirt. Well this goes back to the origin of the houses of the Noldor, right? Because Fey and or his mother died shortly after his birth and Finway their father decided to remarry.

[00:24:28] And that's something that's not super usual. That's not super common in elf culture. And it was very controversial. And because of that, the sons of Fey and or see themselves as pure Nolder and Noldor.

[00:24:40] Uh, and they see their cousin houses as half Noldor half Van Yar, which is the, the elves that stayed in Valinor and never came back to middle earth and are a little bit like, Ooh, we're so cool. Let me sing all day.

[00:24:56] So yeah, no, this is one more reason why these guys are annoying and should be called out for what they are. I've got a question. All right. So at one point, uh, there's to me kind of suddenly, right.

[00:25:13] It says at Merith Adderthad, many councils were taken in goodwill and oaths were sworn of league and friendship. Um, and everybody suddenly kind of comes together right there. Um, what these guys have not been able to get along for, you know, this from my book,

[00:25:32] it's 113 pages and suddenly one paragraph comes and there's this councils of goodwill and oaths and league of, of, of league and friendship. Um, what, what happened? Well if I believe this is part of the 400 year period where it opens like, yeah, so

[00:25:50] there were 400 years where Melkor was kept at bay and whatnot. Uh, maybe I'm, maybe I'm mixing up the timeline here within the chapter, but my point is I do think that, that it sometimes gets lost when you read the Silmarillion how many years

[00:26:05] pass between different sentences because it's so right. Uh, in the, in the Elvish parts of it at least, you know, things happen a little faster with men cause they keep dying faster. But uh, here we are. And so there's that.

[00:26:19] And there is still a sense of duty among the, among the Noldor I think they're like, all right, let's try to work things out at least. This is actually 20 years of the sun had passed. I think unless I'm missing. Okay. Okay.

[00:26:33] So this is right at the beginning of, yeah. And, and, and it in, it inaugurates a period of, uh, well I think a siege of Angband. That wasn't entirely peaceful, but, um, but, but a period of, of cooperation we'll call

[00:26:48] it between these various, uh, groups of elves and men. And um, I don't know, it just seemed out of character in a way. And I, and I, I sort of wanted to explain it somehow.

[00:27:02] And I found myself reaching for the explanation that number one, we've just read about Finrod sort of bravely setting aside his problems, uh, with, uh, Madras and, and saving him right. Bravely saving him.

[00:27:20] And then we read about Madras kind of being gracious and taking up, uh, uh, you know, the, the, the burden of, of watching Angband. And maybe it was just my thought was maybe it was just these good choices on the part

[00:27:33] of these two that kind of led to a, to a more positive environment where, where these, uh, agreements were possible. I don't know. Well also Feanor's dead, right? So he's sort of the hothead.

[00:27:47] The hothead is not in the room anymore and his sons are kind of hotheads too, but maybe that fire is a little bit, uh, less bright than it was before. Yeah.

[00:27:58] It does say, I think at one point it says that Madras had, had let the oath kind of kind of lie, uh, passive for a time or something like that. Suggesting that although he remembers that he has this oath that he has to come after

[00:28:12] Melkor, uh, he's maybe not as fired up about it as, uh, as, as his father was. I've got a question that comes before that text. Okay. So, um, Karen Thierre, uh, meets the dwarves of the blue mountains, right? He, it's a Bilagos and Nagrod first.

[00:28:33] The blue mountain dwarves. Oh, they come later. Later. Okay. And that's what Finrod. Okay. All right. Well he meets these dwarves and, uh, he's, he's not fond of them because of their unloveliness. That was pretty funny. And um, but they both hate Morgoth. Yep.

[00:28:55] And they're learning skills from each other and they're like, they're like so into the craft that they're willing to put a, put aside and sort of any surface level, um, unsightliness the dwarves bring to the table.

[00:29:11] Karen Thierre, Karen Thierre is a, he's a, he's a interesting kind of guy. So is this the first alliance between dwarves and elves? I believe so. Okay. Cause Thingol, Thingol does some stuff later, but it's not pretty and it's not, uh, uh, it's not really related to this.

[00:29:36] Because I think that dwarves are, I mean, the dwarves are mentioned a lot previously, but sort of in passing and never, it seems in terms of alliance, the dwarves, first of all, they're unlovely because basically somebody described the children of a Louvatar to LA one of the Valar.

[00:29:58] And he took a rough approximation based on the description and made the dwarves. So they're just rough approximations of the elves and men. So the universe was young. And so I imagine that all a is, uh, draws like a child, you know, like children, children's

[00:30:17] drawings are a little bit off. Right. And so that's why they're so funky looking, but the, the, uh, the reason that they don't have alliances, I think they're just like that. They're just kind of grouchy. If they have, they're, they're in a weird place because sure.

[00:30:39] They're, they know that the other Valor exists, but like one gave them life compared to the, uh, the elves and men who got life directly from Arul, Louvatar, the main deity, the main God, they just have this one guy in their court.

[00:30:56] So I think they're a little distrusting by nature. They also it's there in a weird spot because they were the first to ever awaken, but then they were put to sleep for countless years until everybody else woke up.

[00:31:11] Well on top of that, it's pretty clear that like looks matter in Tolkien's world, right? This is sort of this very old physiognomic point of view that like someone's countenance will reflect the virtue of their soul.

[00:31:30] And uh, unless that, you know, unless they're deceptive and in that case, maybe you can't trust it. But um, for the most part you, you know, if you look ugly, you are ugly, you know, you're, you're evil. Warm tongue wasn't winning any pageants. That's right. That's right.

[00:31:51] So, uh, it's, it's an odd bit of Tolkien's world, uh, you know, but it, it, it kind of makes it feel more authentically medieval, I suppose. But maybe hobbits are like a weird counter example. How so? Well, I mean, they're fat and not handsome, right?

[00:32:19] And generally physically unimpressive. But they are, you know, it takes Gandalf to see that deep down they have this kind of moral grit, moral fiber. I don't know. I mean, I take your point that it seems like, you know. You're right. It is a good counter example. Yeah.

[00:32:37] The other thing I was going to mention about this chapter was that, and again, this is a contrast with Lord of the Rings is that, you know, if you're introduced to this world

[00:32:49] through the hobbit and through Lord of the Rings, as most people are, you kind of get elves are old and wise and isolationist. And um, you know, they, they, they create songs and crafts and, um, sort of warlike

[00:33:11] would be the last thing that you think them like, of course they must have some history, right? And they keep like broken swords on display and things like that. But when you pick up the Silmarillion, it's just like one war after the next.

[00:33:28] This chapter is just like, just describing all the times they went to war. And I would just, you know, if, if I guess your, your first, the first guy you'd come across is a shoot, what's his name? The Henor?

[00:33:44] Well, I was thinking like Kellegorn or Galadriel or these people, when you, when you walk in, let's say you walk into their forest and you first encounter Kellegorn, you're not, warlike is the last thing you're thinking of these people.

[00:34:03] You know, they're like, they're almost like, um, transcendent and they almost are uninvolved with the wars of men and dwarves and what, but in this chapter, they are, they are just bellicose. They are absolutely bellicose in this chapter. I, um, I agree with you.

[00:34:33] I think that the point here is that these elves are young and these elves are hotheaded because they are of the Noldor and they are a Feanor. And once the Feanorians are gone, because you know, by the second age, there's one descendant of Feanor.

[00:34:52] They're territorial, they're grudge holding. They're, they're, they're quick to, they're quick to take slight. Like, I guess that's all kind of bespeaks immaturity. Right. But it's not like they're just going to war because you know, someone insulted the

[00:35:11] honor of, you know, my house or my father or someone besmirched the, the, you know, the, the purity of my, whatever it is. They're going to war for really petty reasons. These elves. Um, I, I'm just really struck by that in this chat. Yeah, it's, it's really strange.

[00:35:32] I think part of it is they felt a little suffocated by the valor. The valor said you get this part of Valinor and that's it. And you're not allowed to go back.

[00:35:39] And so it's kind of like a teenager moving out for the first time and they just want to do everything on it, throw their beer cans on the floor and put alcohol bottles up as decorations because we all did that at some point.

[00:35:51] And, uh, that's, that's where they are in life, you know? Okay. That's, that's where I'm at. D can I ask you Anthony, since, since you're the house of the dragon guy. Yeah. Did the Merith Adderthod, the feast of reuniting, did that give you the vibes of

[00:36:09] the end of episode eight of house of the dragon or Viserys brings everybody together and goes now kiss? I wouldn't, um, I wouldn't have thought of it in those terms, but like when you

[00:36:19] pointed out, when you pointed that out to me, um, I think that that has some merit. In addition to that is I, I thought that the vision given by Umo had some house of the dragon vibes.

[00:36:36] You know, there's, there's some kind of prophecy that eventually some, some dark horrible thing is going to happen. And it's up to you to prepare for this thing that's going to happen, although it's very vague. Right.

[00:36:52] Um, and in addition to that, there's, there's a little bit of confusion about who's the, who is the carrier of the prophecy? Like, like these, the two guys that get the vision, they don't talk about it with each other. So there's some kind of, um, misunderstanding between them.

[00:37:13] About it. So that, that kind of gave me house drag vibes a little. Yeah. I mean, Turgon and Finrod, this is the next bullet point I had anyway. You know, they each receive, it sounds like personalized visions to me from

[00:37:26] Umo, like this, these were sort of, you get one, you get one Finrod of then becomes a guest of thing all who tells Finrod about the caves around the river. Narag Finrod leaves and forms Nargothrond. And Elvis stronghold with the helps of the dwarves of the blue mountain.

[00:37:45] He pays them with treasures from Valinor and they form him a great necklace called the now glimmer. Remember that one? Uh, Finrod earns the title of filigree from the dwarves. So a lot, a lot here, but I wanted to go through this.

[00:38:03] Nargothrond thing because the Naval mirror is going to be an important deal later. Yeah. I don't remember why. Can you, can you, can you remind me what this necklace is? Uh, what the importance of this necklace is. It will one day have to do with thing goals downfall.

[00:38:22] Oh, I'm going to have to reread that part. I don't remember. Yeah. It's, it's a whole thing with the dwarves and the Naga mirror. So I don't want to spoil it too much cause I'm trying to go like light spoilers

[00:38:35] through the Silmarillion here on the pod, but it's, it's going to be important. That's why I pointed out now, you know, track it. Okay. All right. So Finrod's got his realm and, and uh, that's where he's going to be for the

[00:38:48] rest of the first age tour gone on the other hand is guided by Ulmo to the hidden veil of tomb Laden, where he's going to found Gondolin, the closest thing Tyrion in Valinor that middle earth ever had.

[00:39:03] And I'll, I'll just state for listeners, this is the subject of the fall of Gondolin, which is one of the three great tales that Tolkien wrote like a full version of it, basically a full novel. And Christopher then released in the early 2000s. Okay.

[00:39:18] I got a question about this. So, uh, you know, it's really hard to find the old guides, um, him to the, the veil and then the hill is described as a hill of stone. Am I to take this to mean that the whole thing is one solid rock?

[00:39:40] Good question. I guess, uh, if you look at the artwork behind Gondolin, it is pretty stony. So maybe that's the intention. I never thought about that though. I'm just trying to imagine like, is this a city that sort of like, you know, like

[00:39:59] a sculpture that's like all carved out of one piece of wood or whatever. Um, I'm wondering if this is, if I should imagine this as a city. That is an actual sculpture. Um, I don't know.

[00:40:13] I'm not, I'm not really sure if I'm reading that correctly, but when it said a hill of, of stone, what, what I imagined is sort of like, like super white, you know, single, you know, solid, solid rock, but it could be that that's just what I'm imagining. Yeah.

[00:40:35] I'm, I'm looking at it now. I think that is the intention that this is carved out of the rock. Okay. And if someone wants to write in and correct me, hello, TR at the low hands.com, uh, any other thoughts on chat? I want to go to you.

[00:40:52] Any, are you familiar with the whole Nargothrond Gondolin deal? Are you familiar with any of these tales and what do they mean? I'm really not. Yeah. Okay. I, I have a question about Ulmo. I want to throw it at you guys. You got it.

[00:41:09] Ulmo is an interesting deity in that he's, um, he's a little bit more hands-on. It would, would that, would that be a right way to think about Ulmo? He's a little bit more hands-on than the rest of these, you know, the, the

[00:41:26] Pantheon of gods, he's got a little bit of a Prometheus vibe. Okay. Right. He's he's wants to help the children of a Louvatar. He's giving them messages in the water. It said, I think in of men that like the elves can basically understand what

[00:41:42] almost saying in the water, but the men are just like, well, that seems right. That seemed, that seems nice. Uh, yeah, he's, he's the only one who really visits and helps for a long time after the Valar are angry at the Noldor. So what makes him different?

[00:42:02] I mean, he's, he's one of the original Pantheon, you know, we did see in this chapter, Manwe kind of intercede, but really only sending emissaries, you know, sending, sending, uh, you know, great Eagle to do his bidding almost shows up. Right.

[00:42:19] He, he, he, he's got, you know, rumors and news by way of waterways that he's gathering. He shows up, he gives these guys visions, you know, he, he guides them to secret places. Um, he's, he's fundamentally different than the other gods of this Pantheon.

[00:42:40] And should I read this as sort of, he, he cares about the, the, the fates of these people's more than the rest, or is it his job to, to do this? I don't know really how to read him.

[00:42:56] He's, he's a little bit rogue among the Valar, you know, he's not usually around in councils. He, if you'll recall, was the one who ferried the elves across the sea to Valinor. He's also one of the very few number of Valar who thought that they should just

[00:43:14] let the elves live in middle earth and not bring them over and just help heal that world. And so he's, he's a little bit of a wild card. He's, he's always been like this. Like he's, he anchors told Arisaia the lost isle near Valinor so that the elves

[00:43:32] have their own special island too. So he's, he's just kind of like this, like he's, he's all around good guy and also the elves awoke in water. So I think he has a bit of a special bond with them. Hmm. I didn't remember that. Mm hmm.

[00:43:51] Do you suppose that El Olmo is incapable of helping them penetrate Angband? It seems as if Angband is this sort of impenetrable force, right? They, they're able to beat him back into it, but it just, they, at a certain point

[00:44:09] they just kind of hit a wall trying to, trying to take him out, trying to take Melkor out. Are, are, are deities on the level of Olmo scared of Melkor? I think so. Melkor, Melkor is the most powerful of all of them.

[00:44:25] And I, and I think that's the point is it's, it's sad that he fell to darkness because he could have been so great, right? He could have been like the, the Vala in charge of men, but he wasn't. He just, he fell to darkness.

[00:44:40] He looked into the void too long and he went crazy. And so really only Manwe and Melkor have the knowledge of all the parts of the mind of a Aluvatar, of the, of the deity. Then the others really only have a portion.

[00:44:55] I don't think most of them are really that into fighting either. Tolkis is really the only one who's like, let's go get them. Right. So that's my question. It's like there was this, this effort to go find him. Tolkis couldn't find him.

[00:45:08] And then Tolkis basically drops out of the narrative. Yeah. And so, okay. So it's not almost thing to like go to war. Right. Um, which is kind of odd because I, I, you know, you would think like the, the

[00:45:23] sea God would also be a warlike, but not in this world. Right. Um, but a lot of these gods just check out. And I mean, I don't really know what to do with that information.

[00:45:40] Um, uh, you know, I guess I appreciate the case against man way that I've been building this entire series. Tell me the case against a recurring theme that I bring up, which is. Manway is not a very good leader.

[00:45:54] He's extremely passive and he lets things fester before making them resolve because he's worried about short-term consequences. Like the, the Valor deliberately do not interfere with milk or because they, they saw the destruction of middle earth during the original wars, the wars of the powers.

[00:46:13] And so they, they are just like, we don't want to destroy middle earth again, especially now that it's more populated with elves and men. I think it's short-sighted, you know what I mean? They're eventually going to have to do that anyway. That happens eventually.

[00:46:28] They're going to take them down. So they, they basically just let everyone build up and then they go, okay, now we'll go to war and destroy this whole area. Yeah. I mean, I guess it, it doesn't, it would sort of ruin the story if you've got this

[00:46:45] ex machina, you know, ascend from the clouds and, and, but you know, on occasion the eagles do that kind of thing. But to keep. Ulmo in the story is almost a reminder of how bad manway is. Yeah, it is.

[00:47:03] I mean, it'd be one thing if the deities are just look, they're off doing their own and, and these, these little squabbles that the elves and dwarves and orcs have are not the matters that deities concern themselves with. But almost is the, is the counter counterfactual here.

[00:47:21] Clearly some of them do care. Clearly some of them do take interest. Yeah. So it just, it just makes man look really bad, I guess. Well, and manway does interfere at some points, right? Like he sent the eagle to help thing on and, and madros.

[00:47:39] But yeah, I guess, I guess in some way my question is, you know, why don't they help more? But maybe you've answered that. I mean, maybe they're just worried that they're going, they're going to provoke some kind of catastrophic destruction. Yeah.

[00:47:53] I mean, you gotta, and this is the case that's been levied as a defense of manway by Marilyn Arbucula among others. But basically every time they intervene, something bad happens. So they're kind of just like, well, maybe we should just stop poking around in here.

[00:48:11] Like they, they had this beautiful place in the middle of a middle earth alkaline day and they had these lamps that lit everything equally with holy light and then milk or destroyed that.

[00:48:26] And then they tried to bring the elves over to, you know, save them from the destruction of manway of milk or rather. And the whole Silmaril Feanor nonsense happened. Then they, you know, they capture milk or, and they bring him back as prisoner and

[00:48:45] they think he's rehabilitated and they set them free, set him free and he destroys the two trees and they're in darkness. So every time they take direct action in this, something bad has happened. So I think that they just get really nervous about it.

[00:48:57] You remember in Lord of the Rings when Gandalf says something, I think he's talking to Frodo about how maybe Frodo was meant to have the ring and that's an encouraging thought or something like that. Yeah. I believe that's in the book, right?

[00:49:10] That's not just the movie that I'm reading. I believe so. There's, there's all these different calls to the hand of Eru Iluvatar sort of tilting the scale a little bit, you know? Okay. So you think when Gandalf says that he's talking about Iluvatar. Yeah. Oh yeah.

[00:49:25] That's not the Valar. That's Iluvatar. That is Iluvatar saying like, I'm just going to nudge you a little bit this way. You know, I'm going to make sure that Gollum trips on a rock and falls into Mount Doom.

[00:49:37] Is it possible that Gandalf would believe in some force that was not Iluvatar or the Valar? I don't think so. He's, he is one of the Maiar. Right. So he is part of this holy energy and therefore would have known Iluvatar at one

[00:49:52] point, like personally, like he, he came from this holy energy. So I don't think so. Well, that's interesting. I mean, I wonder if you could explain the hesitancy of the Valar to get involved likewise by their, their kind of deference to whatever the plan, the sort of unknown

[00:50:12] plan of the, of the seemingly uninvolved, but evidently some in some way involved high God. I think they're just really like, they were set there not to like, they, they deliberately were not told when the children of Iluvatar were going to wake up

[00:50:28] because they didn't, because every Iluvatar did not want his children, the elves and men to become like mini Valar and mini Maiar. He wanted them to have their own free will and be able to develop their own cultures.

[00:50:41] And they do, and they invent speech and all these incredible things that the Valar had never even thought of. But then the Valar go, okay, well, we don't really think that it's the time to solve the problem of Morgoth.

[00:50:52] So we're going to bring you all over here and that causes so many problems and they just keep causing all these problems. So I really do think it's a matter of an abundance of caution and a fear of causing unnecessary collateral damage. Because arguably Feynor never comes over.

[00:51:11] He never sees the, or he was born on Valinor, but you know what I mean? He's never there. He never sees the trees and therefore is never able to make the Silmarils. And therefore there's no thing to fight over, right? There's, there's no Holy energy to fight over.

[00:51:23] A lot of this came from the intervention of the Valar. Yeah. I did some research on this before. Like earlier today and I couldn't find an answer to this. So maybe you can answer this. Okay. John who or what is the Silmarillion? It's the tale of the Silmarils.

[00:51:48] So, but it's not named after the creator of the Silmarils. It's not, it's not the, the actual Feynor. Right. It's not the actual, it's not the actual, it's not the actual. It's not, it's not the, the actual Feynorillion. All right. All right.

[00:52:06] It doesn't really roll off the tongue. So it's, it's the, it's the whole tale and it has no referent to, you know, like for instance, the Lord of the Rings refers to some kind of Lord, right?

[00:52:21] Uh, I was wondering if the Silmarillion referred to some person or thing within in the story itself. No, I believe it just is basically the tale of the Silmarils, you know, you know, where did they go? What, what conflict did they cause?

[00:52:38] And I think the whole point of it being named after the Silmarils is just Feynor created them, but really the sons of the Noldor, the sons of Feynor had a lot more to do with what ends up happening to them.

[00:52:50] Other people like men like Baron and Turin and Torren's not as Silmarillion, but you know what I mean? Other, other individuals that are not of the house of Feynor ended up having a really big impact on what happens to the world based on these Silmarils.

[00:53:06] So I think he just saw those as the core of the identity of this story. The core, the core driving force behind this story, I guess. Hmm. It's kind of, um, I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's a failure on the part

[00:53:24] of Feanor's sons, or if it's a failure on the part of Thingol or if it's a failure on the part of the Valar, I, I don't know what to make of it, but the fact that Morgoth is isolated, almost totally surrounded, not totally surrounded, but almost totally surrounded.

[00:53:45] He cannot have any, he doesn't have any power beyond his own walls. And yet for 400 years, they have this siege and they can't quite vanquish him. Uh, it just seems like a major, major defeat by, I guess, by way of attrition or something like that. Yeah.

[00:54:06] And again, I think it's just that, you know, when they finally do at the end of the first stage, when they finally do take action, it does destroy like an entire continent, right? Entire part of a continent like Balarians gone at the end of the first

[00:54:20] age because of their action. And so I think they're basically like, we don't want to light a nuke if we don't have to. And if the Noldor are keeping him at bay and there's not a lot of suffering over there, maybe we just leave it for now. Hmm.

[00:54:32] Hmm. It's only, it's only later when they're explicitly, first of all, they don't ever, they're never asked for help. That's one thing like the Noldor never go like, can you help us defeat Morgoth until a Arendille comes with a Simaril and says, please, on behalf of men and

[00:54:50] elves, help us defeat Morgoth. You're the only ones who can do it. And then they immediately go. Hmm. Hmm. So maybe that's the answer is nobody ever asked and they don't want to intervene without being asked anymore.

[00:55:05] I thought it was an interesting detail in this chapter that, all right, so Morgoth is surrounded. He's, he's basically held at bay, but on occasion he can send his goons out and capture an elf. It's the Joe Pesci orcs by the way, you know, going around capturing everybody.

[00:55:27] Okay. So, so they send the goons out and captures an elf brings the elf to Morgoth and the terror of his eyes can change their allegiance. It basically just scares them into submission. It scares them in submission, but once they leave, they can, he, they will do

[00:55:50] his will, his will, no matter where they go. Uh, I thought that was a really interesting detail. And you know, sometimes I wonder like, you know, how did, how did these creatures actually become evil? Right.

[00:56:06] But, uh, you know, that he's, he's got that kind of Svengali power over and off, off, you know, I'll be honest until I read this chapter, I'd always had a major problem with the way that the movies of Lord of the Rings end where

[00:56:23] they kill the big baddie and then everyone sort of is like, you know, broke the spells broken and they all run away. Right. So, you know, you don't really have a, you don't really have to finish the

[00:56:36] battle because all of the minions are going to scatter once you killed big baddie and I didn't, I never got that sense from reading the book that that's actually how it goes down. But in this chapter, you see that there is, there's something about the eyes

[00:56:52] of Morgoth that absolutely controls the will of his servants. Yeah. And, and if Sauron were at his full power with the ring, he'd also be able to dominate people, not just with rings. But that's, that's a whole thing.

[00:57:08] Like the whole point of Sauron forging the one ring was to pour all of his power into the power of domination. It's a very Tolkien thing to do to make the big baddie like, like he's like,

[00:57:21] he holds some kind of psychological power more than he actually is like, you know, strong of arm or something. Right. It's all, it's all about like the coming of the sun or you know, the, the, the, the fear that controls the hearts of men.

[00:57:37] It's all very psychological rather than just sort of brute force. Right. Right. And I've always liked that, but yeah, we get, we get another battle as you say the Dagor Aglareb, the glorious battle. He's great at naming these battles.

[00:57:56] I don't know if you've ever listened to the Silmarillion audio book. There's one that narrated by Andy circus now, but the classic one is the one that I like and uh, that's the only reason I can pronounce any of this

[00:58:06] because I just, it's so tough if you don't, is this the one by Martin Shaw? I believe so. All right. That's what, uh, that's what a audible has. Yes. Yeah. But so, you know, the, the battles when he reads them are so like

[00:58:25] the Dagor Aglareb and you, you just get the sense that this was this great battle that just went down in legend. Like, Oh, I remember the Dagor Aglareb. Like that was insane. Madros. Uh, and then of course we have the, uh, sort of a sneak preek, a sneak

[00:58:46] peek of, uh, Glaurung. Not supposed to, not supposed to reveal himself yet, but he's, he's young and impetuous. Can't wait to get out and, uh, show it. Where does he come from? He's a fire Drake. I don't, I don't know.

[00:59:04] There's, there's a lot of creations that come out of more, more Goth and thing garage room that just, you're like, where did these come from? The boroughs, at least we know where fire my are like, they are on the same level

[00:59:16] as, you know, Gandalf, and that's why they're able to fight like that. But I don't know where the fire drinks came from, to be honest with you. Yeah. I mean, there, I just assumed that more goth is sort of raising a litter of dragons. Yeah.

[00:59:32] He does have the power to like shape the world. So I'm sure he's just like, all right, well, you lizard, you can shoot fire now and you have wings. Right. And they, they, they grow long. The lives of fire Drake's are slow and long.

[00:59:48] It takes a long time to get these, these things battle ready. I do like that. He's smart, right? Like he, he can make the decision to go out and terrorize. He's got a will of his own. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And Fingon, of course, Fingon's doing work this chapter.

[01:00:04] He saves made rows and now he's back to fight off a dragon and send them back to Angband. All around. I think on still great guy. Great guy. Still not as interesting as Fionor. It's just, I think dragons are interesting because I mean, we learn from, you know,

[01:00:27] later when we, when we get a much more, a much richer picture of a dragon and the hobbit, like they're smart, right. And they're crafty and they're, they're much more than just big monsters. Right. They can cast spells. Right. Yeah. They're sophisticated.

[01:00:48] They're, they're discerning that, you know, they're in a way in their own way. They're sort of wise. They can, they, they, they find the humor, right. They, they, they clearly have a sense of humor. Right. I mean, they're different than orcs, right? Right. Right.

[01:01:03] They have a kind of, they have a little bit more substantial personality. So I don't know. I mean, I wonder if there was something special about whatever it is that Melchor did to create this thing.

[01:01:19] Well, I also want to point out that Melchor, this is not the first time that he's allied or created something that he does not have enough control over. I think about his adventures with Ungolian. Ungolian's like, all right, now come here. I'm going to eat you.

[01:01:34] And he only barely escapes that. Right. I've got a question about dragons. Um, all right. So I think I remember, I forget the name of the dragon, but Turin has to face a dragon without wings. And this, this dragon that we meet in this chapter, it's not mentioned

[01:01:56] whether there's wings or not. And I, should I assume that if there, if it's not mentioned, I should imagine these dragons as having wings. I mean, it goes out of the way that says it's a fire breathing dragon. Right. No mention of wings.

[01:02:14] And so I'm wondering, is that the default? Good question. I, well, Glaurung is the dragon that he faces. Whoa. That's the same dragon that Turin faces later. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I just verified it because I was like, I think it's the same dragon and it is.

[01:02:33] So it's specified in that later, I guess. And I guess it's an independent book that I read. I don't know what this particular, what the chapter in this book says, but. It's specified in that chapter that Glaurung is wingless. Yeah.

[01:02:52] I don't recall that from the Silmarillion, but maybe, maybe it's an, is it, did you read the children of Hurin? I think that that's probably where I got that information. So that's an interesting independent work because there's like three versions of the tale in it.

[01:03:05] It's not, isn't that true? Isn't that what they do with it? Or is that what they do in Baron and Luthien? I don't remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Baron and Luthien book, there's three different versions. Oh, nevermind. Nevermind.

[01:03:15] But it is, it is slightly different, I think because it's so expanded, but yeah, I didn't recall that. So now I got to go look this up. So I could be making that up.

[01:03:25] Don't take my word for it, but I seem to remember that that was the case. And then it made me think like, do dragons in Tolkien's world usually have wings or is that, is that sort of a special innovation that we find out later by our drakes?

[01:03:44] I think they do. I think they do have wings because I got the sense that Glaurung was flying around causing havoc here. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure. Maybe I just assume though, because I'm watching too much house of the dragon. I don't think it's mentioned.

[01:04:01] Um, but of course someone will correct me. I'm sure if I got this. It says after they beat back, uh, you know, baby dragon or whatever that few foresaw the full meaning and threat of this new thing.

[01:04:16] Um, I suppose that sort of foreshadowing all the trouble they'll have with dragons in the subsequent centuries. That's that's right. I'm not familiar with all the tales of dragons. I know, I know what happens in the Hobbit, but there's really not a lot of dragon action.

[01:04:32] I think the part of it is. Tolkien was really focused on the character drama and the politics of this. And when he has a battle, as you've seen, we had two battles in this chapter and they lasted about a paragraph each. That's just what he does. Right?

[01:04:45] He's like, and it was a crazy battle and there were dragons and everybody went home and these people died. So that's just, that's just style. So this is what this is. This is the passage. All right.

[01:04:57] Again, after a hundred years, clattering the first of the Uruk Loki, the fire Drake's of the North issued from Angband's gates at night. So he goes to the gates. That's interesting. Um, he was yet young and scarce half grown for long and slow as the life of

[01:05:16] dragons, but the elves fled before him to Arad Withren and Dothlor, uh, sorry, dust door Thonian in dismay. North on him. Yeah. Thanks. And he defiled the fields of Ard Galen. Um, so there's nothing, there's nothing that says about him flying around, I guess.

[01:05:44] I'm just implying some wings here. Yeah. Yeah. Then Fingon Prince of Hithlum, uh, Hithlum wrote against him with archers on horseback and hemmed him around with a ring of swift riders. Yeah. Yeah. This is a wingless, uh, dragon and Glarong could not endure their darts. Anyway.

[01:06:07] Uh, it's, it's an odd bit of, uh, of the mythology that I never quite understood. Like, why does this particular dragon not have wings? Yeah, that is interesting. I'm going to have to come back to you on that. Cause that's, that's an interesting point that I've never considered.

[01:06:22] Maybe it's because he's young. It's still growing. But then when he meets Turin later, he still doesn't have wings. Right. Uh, so anyway, it could be that the wings are an innovation of, you know, you, these, these, uh, baddies in middle earth are always trying to like.

[01:06:37] Uh, upgrade their weaponry. Right. Maybe it seems like there's an implication in this story that dragons are tougher than Balrog. Do you agree with that? That that dragons are what? Tougher than Balrog. Yeah. Um, cause he's got a bunch of Balrogs, right?

[01:06:57] And he does have a bunch of them. That's a good question. I don't think so because Balrogs are Maiar. So they're like immortal. But okay. That's an interesting question. I think that the idea here is that they don't really know what to do with this

[01:07:11] thing and they're able to hold it back, but they don't quite understand how to fight these things yet. We're sort of like, maybe the Balrog is, you know, I don't, I don't know how to measure these things because you would think like almost one of the most powerful

[01:07:26] creatures in all of middle earth. And he, he's zips around and give people visions. So like, I don't know if I should measure someone sort of hierarchy in the Pantheon with their ability to have battlefield prowess. Right. Sure. And then you have these weird categories. Sorry, go ahead.

[01:07:47] Yeah. In the, in this, in this particular conflict that that Melkor is having, he's feeling discouraged, right? He's just been beaten. He feels in his heart that he sees in his heart that he's not going to be successful continuing to fight with these elves.

[01:08:01] And, and so he retreats and he comes up with a new idea and his new idea is this dragon. And it just seems weird if you tell the story like this, if you say, well, in terms of battlefield prowess, the the Balrogs are, are really, really powerful.

[01:08:17] And then he, he can't overcome them with his, you know, group of Balrogs. So he goes back and comes up with a new idea, a weaker being a dragon. That seems like a weird way to understand the story.

[01:08:28] So it seems like he, he must think the dragon has greater battlefield prowess than it was because he got the air game. If they do have wings. I don't know about that, Chad, let's say you've got a bunch of long swords and.

[01:08:40] It doesn't mean like you don't need your armor to create a dagger because just it would serve a different purpose. Right? Mm-hmm. Or maybe the dragons are just really scary. So there's a kind of psychological element. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Well, I don't know.

[01:08:58] I mean, I'm sure that John will do some research for us. I will, I will get back to you and hopefully you can have you both on again. Yep. I don't feel like Gandalf could have held back smog at the, at the, at the bridge,

[01:09:13] you know, but he did, he did hold back at Balrog. So, well, but, but here's the thing. Gandalf was allowed to use his power against the Balrog because that was a being of his same class. He was not allowed to use his powers against beings of middle earth.

[01:09:30] I see. Okay. I didn't know that. Is that right? It's sort of like a weight class kind of thing. Like, oh yeah. So we get to wrestle people in your weight class. I believe that's part of his restrictions because Gandalf is an istar. He's one of the Astari.

[01:09:43] So he was one of five special my are, who were sent out on a mission by the Valar to go to middle earth, take on mortal bodies. So that's why Gandalf can die. They take on mortal bodies, but they're like perpetually immortal.

[01:10:00] So there's some sort of like, like code of ethics regarding the kind of force that they can use. I believe that's right. They're, they're not supposed to directly intervene. They're supposed to massage the peoples of middle earth into doing the right thing.

[01:10:14] Well, these, these Astari are total failures. They're actually absolutely intervening. Right? Well, Gandalf succeeds. Gandalf is the most successful of all of them. Wait, is this, are these rules only for the good guys or are the Balrogs also constrained by these rules?

[01:10:32] The, the Balrogs are not constrained because they're just Meyer, but they're out in the world rogue. Okay. The basically Gandalf and his buddies were given these mortal bodies and said like, here's your restrictions go and massage this because again, the, the Valar

[01:10:49] remain cautious in the third age, even more so there's nonsense that happens at the second age. It makes them even more cautious. I'm going to take issue with this. I, he does more than massage the events of middle earth. He absolutely intervenes. He runs around with a sword.

[01:11:04] He strikes fear into the heart of orcs. He sets pine cones on fire. Yeah. He sets pine cones on fire, John. He's allowed to use some tricks, but he's not allowed to like go full, you know,

[01:11:20] super saying on anybody, but somebody who's also a saying, you know what I'm saying? Look, I'm, I'm, I'm making my point again here. I don't think that even Gandalf with the powers that he displays in that, in that

[01:11:35] interaction with the Balrog, I don't think he could have held back a full fledged dragon. I don't think so. Fair enough. Well, I don't think that that would be his move anyway. He would try to like out riddle the dragon or something. Yeah.

[01:11:46] He would try to outwit it. Uh, he would try to be incredibly British as Sir Ian McKellen. Just disgustingly British. Oh man, this is fun. I'm glad we did this. Yeah. Let's wrap up the chapter. Uh, you know, Balarian lives in peace for a long time after that.

[01:12:07] But of course, Tolkien has one more note, which is that the Sindar are definitely better at music than the Noldor, except he wants us to also know that with Maglor, this guy plucks really funny. He loves it.

[01:12:25] He just wants Maglor to be King of the castle when it comes to music. I love that. There's like, like everyone agrees that these guys are better than those guys. Like, like, like at one point in the chapter, it says that the Noldor are better with languages.

[01:12:44] Was that it? Was that what I read? Uh, it's, it's basically they there's two languages or two main languages right now. There's Quenya and Sindarin and the people who speak Quenya are better at learning Sindarin than the people who speak Sindarin are learning Quenya. Yeah.

[01:13:02] The Sindarin, uh, those of the Sindarin tongue just kind of suck at language acquisition. Yeah. But, but they're great at composing music. Uh, I don't know. It's just kind of funny. Maglor. Don't go up against Maglor.

[01:13:18] You gotta remember that, that this is an in universe text and so it's basically just Noldor propaganda. Sure. Okay. And in fact, one of my, one of my fan theories about rings of power is that

[01:13:30] it's even more Noldor propaganda, which is why at the beginning of rings of power, they go and then we just sailed to middle earth to, to, you know, take on Melkor. They don't talk about the Kinslaying or the oath or anything like that. Or the land acquisition.

[01:13:45] Right, right. Yeah. They're just like, we definitely went after the bad guy that happened. I have a quick question about the Kinslaying thing. Okay. Um, I feel like, correct me if you, if you don't have this impression, uh, that

[01:13:58] would be interesting too, but I have this impression that almost all the time when it comes up in the book, they talk more about how the ships got burned than they do about the killing of the Kin. Well, it does come up soon again.

[01:14:11] I think the next chapter with Thingol because remember Thingol was actually Elway who's the head of the Teleri who are the ones who built the ships and who are the ones who were the victims in the Kinslaying.

[01:14:24] It just seems weird that there's such an emphasis on the loss of the ships. Like you would think that the ships wouldn't really be on, on anybody's radar. It's the, it's the murdering of your kin that would be upset, really upsetting.

[01:14:36] It's like, um, I don't know, that surprises me. And I feel like I'm, maybe there's some, some reason why or where the ship's special in a way that I don't understand. Or they were in, in the sense that, you know, how so Feanor can't make more

[01:14:50] simmerals because that was like his, you know, beef. That was his whole being put, put into their same deal with the Teleri and their ships. Okay. Same deal with the Falmari and their ship. So he destroyed their creation and it's really insult to injury because Feanor

[01:15:06] left the rest of the Noldor in Valinor. They're like, maybe we should send these ships back for them. No, just burn them. Burn them. Wow. Okay. And that, that, that helps me understand that a little bit better.

[01:15:19] Um, I mean, it does, it does help to under, it helps us understand why these elves are so attached to the things that they create. Right. Cause it's actually, yeah, it's actually then an extension of their own souls. These things. Right. Yep. Hmm. It's interesting stuff.

[01:15:40] One of the random thoughts. Oh, go ahead. One of the random question. There's this reference to a Thangal's girdle of enchantment. Oh yeah. Do we know what that is exactly? We love the girdle. We love the girdle. Uh, yeah, this is, it's described in an earlier chapter.

[01:15:54] This is because he's married to Melian, one of the Maiar. She sets this girdle of enchantment, which is just this ring around Doriath that makes it basically impossible to find your way through unless you have a guide. Yeah, but it looks like a big piece of clothing, right?

[01:16:13] If you say so. If you say so. That's how I like to imagine it. I wonder what's behind that big girdle. No one knows. Any other thoughts besides girdles on this chapter? Yeah, just one more RIP to Fianor.

[01:16:30] Uh, just, just a incredible loss and, uh, um, just, I don't know. I feel sad. He was kind of a complicated character and he's definitely a bad guy at times. Uh, but I feel sad. I feel sad that this move, this book is moving on without him.

[01:16:54] Well, and of course we did learn too that, you know, the elves go back to the halls of Mandos and they often can be given new bodies and allowed to roam in Valinor. Not Fianor. Fianor is so goddamn cranky that he's been sitting there ever since.

[01:17:11] He never leaves. He has fires burned so hot that there's just nothing else to do with. I've seen people say that they want a buddy comedy between like a roommate's comedy with Mandos and Fianor, like the grim reaper plus this cranky guy. That's funny. Uh, thanks, John.

[01:17:31] I appreciate you inviting us. Thank you. Where can we find both of you? I'm going to let Chad go first because he's, he's the new guy to this podcast. Oh, uh, yeah, I guess. Um, you can find all my work on Phil papers.

[01:17:44] I I've written some philosophy you can read there if you're interested. Very cool. That's about it. Uh, you could check out my podcast properly Howard, uh, where me and my standup comic friend, Steve review, uh, crappy eighties movies and a few other

[01:18:01] movies too, and then of course I'm doing a chapter by chapter reread of a song of ice and fire. Uh, and I invite on professional medievalists and philosophers like Chad to help me cover those chapters. Electric Bukalu is what that's.

[01:18:18] So I'll throw in, we already have a properly Howard link in the show notes because they're one of our affiliates. Uh, I'll throw in an electric Bukalu link and chat. If you want to send me a link to your work, I'll throw that in the show notes too.

[01:18:30] All right. Thanks folks. Good talking to you. Super fun. Yeah. Thanks for having us. Well, that was a lovely conversation with Anthony and Chad. Thanks everyone for coming. I just want to do our quick outro. Don't forget we have plenty going on on the lore hounds network.

[01:18:45] We've got radioactive ramblings covering the boys. We've got Alicia on her star Wars, Canon timeline podcast covering the acolyte with me co-hosting. And that's also on the lore hounds feed. David and I are doing house of the dragon.

[01:18:59] Marilyn is going through rings of power season one in rings and rituals. So definitely check out that feed. Anthony, who you heard today is doing felonies in fugazi with properly Howard and that's going strong. So there's plenty of stuff going on. This is hot lore summer.

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