The Acolyte – S01E06 – Teach / Corrupt

[00:00:01] Okay, David, this is where we're supposed to choose a side. Green or black? John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life. So, we're not fighting? I thought this is where HBO wanted us to, like, pick sides and fight and stuff.

[00:00:24] Don't worry, I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod. But we seem to agree on one thing. We both really like this show. The politics, the drama, the lore. It was made for The Lorehounds. And since we just finished recapping season one,

[00:00:38] we couldn't be more ready to defend our black queen in the Dance of the Dragons. And with the season pass option in Supercast, listeners can get early ad-free access to each weekly scene-by-scene deep dive, plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections.

[00:00:53] See you in The Lorehounds podcast feed each week for our dragonfire hot, but probably positive, takes. The Lorehounds' House of the Dragon coverage is also safe for team green consumption. Side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore, a hardened conflict with itself,

[00:01:06] and an inescapable urge to read the book Fire and Blood by George R.R. Martin. Dragon seeds may experience burning. Welcome to the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast. And the Lorehounds' Star Wars podcast. I'm John. And I'm Alicia.

[00:01:37] And today we ask whether Sol and Chimyr teach or corrupt in the sixth episode of the Disney Plus Star Wars series, The Acolyte. Listeners, for this crossover podcast series, we'll be following the apparently controversial Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast spoiler rules.

[00:01:53] We'll talk some more about that in the feedback section, as well as the community's wildest and most popular theories and questions. But first, we'll look at each of the two sides of this episode, throwing out the most likely theories about that new planet,

[00:02:08] everything on it, and what is going on with Sol and Vernestra. We'll wrap it all up with a look at what's ahead on the Lorehounds' network this week. Check the link tree in the show notes for links to all the podcasts we host,

[00:02:20] plus our Discord where the Acolyte theory crafting is heating up. And for the record, this conversation was recorded on July 4th, 2024. America! Fuck yeah. You might have heard another laugh here. And yes, we have David back to share his hot takes. Hi, David. Thank you for stopping by.

[00:02:43] John challenged me to come at him with all my strength, so I had to show up for a quick moment. You were shucking cereal at me, so I said, come fight me on the pod. That's right.

[00:02:52] John and I are more defensive of this show than David's more in cereal mode, I guess. Is that right? Well, and I think I was defending Athena Agilea's spouse, who had declared fan bankruptcy. And I was like, get that guy some cereal and have him enjoy –

[00:03:11] I'm assuming it's a guy. Apologies if my assumptions are incorrect. Pretty sure she said husband. Yeah, I think so. That's a gendered term there. It is. It is a very specific gender term. So my point was get that person some cereal, sit down, pull up a chair,

[00:03:28] pull up a bowl, and enjoy the show because I think the show is worthy and worthwhile for super fans and casual fans alike. And I think that was my point. And John took exception at the fact that I think I was characterizing it

[00:03:45] as a Saturday morning pajamas show as opposed to a serious lore show where we really get into the details of the Star Wars extended universe. I'm not saying that that kind of show can't be bad.

[00:03:56] I'm just saying I don't think your cereal will cure it if it is bad. To me, a Saturday morning cereal show is a very specific type of show that is an adventure of the week. Not everything needs to make sense. Not everything needs to be so serious.

[00:04:11] It's okay to just have your sugary cereal. It's part of that experience. It's part of that lighthearted thing where you just can overlook some holes. I don't think that that's a show. I think if you're not liking the show, the cereal is not going to help.

[00:04:26] That was my point. I think Dr. David's diagnosis and treatment plan was faulty. Well, I was taking it as that there is more depth to the show then. And I think not everyone is connecting with the various layers that are making it so compelling for me.

[00:04:45] And I guess that's okay. It's each their own. It does seem like there are a lot of people who are because we've got a ton of feedback today. That's good. Well, so that means that – and as we know, engagement equals enragement.

[00:04:58] So if people are reacting, it doesn't have to be enraged. They're not reacting in angry ways. They're reacting in theory-crafting ways, which is fun. People are having fun with this. Yeah, it means that it's affecting people in some way.

[00:05:10] And people – like if we're just like, oh, it's fine, then we don't respond. But if there's something we have to say, we get activated by something. I would say that – I mean, it's a valid point in terms of what is a Saturday morning serial show.

[00:05:25] And we started using that term. John, I think you sort of coined that whole thing, which is like, oh, let go, have fun, and enjoy. And so I was thinking more about it in that level.

[00:05:40] I don't know the canon and the books and all of that stuff like you guys do. And I think there is a degree of the fandom, which is also in that position, where it's like, oh, okay. There's some cool action here. There's some interesting characters.

[00:05:55] They're doing some fun stuff with Star Wars. They're showing us a time period. I really like the fact that we're not on a kind of hero's journey quest to find the MacGuffin that's going to overthrow the Empire story, but that we've got a mystery that's happening,

[00:06:12] and we're doing this kind of fun storytelling way of looking at multiple perspectives and doing some flashback-y stuff, all of which I don't think we've really seen in our Star Wars. And so I'm appreciating it on that level.

[00:06:28] And what planet that is and what kind of metal that is and is this the first time we've ever seen a force saber whip thing, you know, Sith, the history of the Sith. It's all blowing past me, but there is a logic and a consistency to it.

[00:06:45] So it doesn't feel like they're just making stuff up and throwing it on the screen. It feels grounded, and it feels like it knows where I feel like as I'm watching it that Hedlund knows what the hell she's talking about.

[00:06:58] So I can just relax and eat some cereal and enjoy it, and not in a, God, this is awful, but I can't stop watching. Like, no, this is actually really enjoyable. And for a fan who's not steeped in the literature, as we could say,

[00:07:16] I'm not an academic of Star Wars, I don't know that I'm missing stuff. And that means something good. You're telling a story that is speaking to me, and all of the lore details are blowing past me, but I don't feel like I'm missing anything,

[00:07:31] and I don't feel like I'm being railroaded into having to learn the lore. I can just go along for the ride on this. And I think that's great, and I'm really glad. And I also love to see all of the Star Wars haters out there.

[00:07:46] Well, there's kind of, what the origin of the shit? It's like, yo. No, that's fine. I will lore drop on them. Yeah, but Leslie Hedlund is, and I love the fandom. I love that the fandom has the ability to stand on two feet and go,

[00:08:00] no, actually, you're wrong. Go kick ass. Because it's so steeped in the lore, and it's so well-rooted. And I think for all of those reasons, I'm enjoying the show. It's not an and-or, of course not. It's in its lane. It's firmly in the lane.

[00:08:17] It's not supposed to be an and-or, right? Exactly. That's the point. Exactly. And it's great, and it's enjoyable. And for me, I could sit down Saturday morning and eat a bowl of cereal. And not in the way of like, oh, I gotta just suffer through this.

[00:08:30] But I'm like, no, this is fun. This is like fun Star Wars. I like this. Is it engaging with you on the level of, you know, the interpersonal conflicts and things like that? Is that drawing you in? Not so... No, it's not drawing me in.

[00:08:46] I think what's drawing me in is the mystery is drawing me in. And how she's using the mystery to un... The way that she's using visual storytelling to unpack the mystery or to figure out that's what's really... In Sol's performance, Lee Jun...

[00:09:05] What's his... I don't have his name on the top of my head. What's the actor's name? Oh, Lee... She calls him JJ. Yeah, Jae Jung. Lee Jung Jae. Lee Jung Jae, yeah. His performance is great.

[00:09:17] And, you know, I love seeing a bunch of new actors that we haven't seen before. So the acting and the script writing now, I know Jon may disagree with me. I think that the script is all that. I disagree with you, too. Yeah, I totally disagree with that.

[00:09:33] Fair enough. I think this is the second best writing in Star Wars as far as dialogue goes. Wow. How? Next to Nemex Manifesto and Andor. Right. I think that's the only dialogue in Star Wars that surpasses this. The conversations happening between Chimere and Osha...

[00:09:53] I keep having to remind myself which one we're talking about. Which one is which? I mean, it's literally the same actor. It's not even twins. Yeah, right. And then the way that Sol is talking to May. I just think that these are the best conversations we've had.

[00:10:09] I see it as Andor. If we're comparing to Tolkien, Andor is about like the men of Middle Earth. And then the acolyte is about the elves of Middle Earth. These otherworldly beings that are Jedi and Sith. There are some ethereal level above the other beings in this universe.

[00:10:31] And it's okay for those to have two totally different dialogues. Yeah, pretty much. I think every character in this is a Force user, aren't they? Right. Yeah. So David, we...

[00:10:45] Oh, yeah, and by the way, full spoilers obviously for the episode we're talking about and every episode before it. David, we didn't get your hot takes on the last episode, which is the one everyone was talking about with the deaths and the lightsaber battles.

[00:10:57] That shocked me in that it was first we got Jekki and then I was like, wow, that was wild. And then was it Jekki first and then Yord? Yes, yeah. I mean, okay, so the red shirts. Yeah, they went quickly. They went quick, no problem.

[00:11:16] But then the way that she ended up with those two, that shocked me because clearly the fans are resonating with both of these characters. And she took not only one but two out and that's something.

[00:11:30] And I think then when Vanestra has to show up later and Sol has to deal with the loss of his whole team, that is some bold storytelling for Star Wars. We don't get a lot of on-screen deaths of major and minor characters. Red shirts are plenty, fine.

[00:11:48] But in terms of people that we're really resonating with and we want to hold onto, that was shocking. And I think that was really bold and I appreciated it. And I also appreciate... I'm just laughing getting the visual.

[00:12:03] I'm laughing because both of their death scenes, okay, yeah, death, whatever. But they were so shocking and she knew exactly what she was doing. And not only did she give Jekki this kind of cool death in terms of the three puncture wounds of the thing.

[00:12:20] But then the way that Yord went down was just really... He got... Yeah, it was just wild. And for her to do that, I think is bold and I applaud her doing that. And it ramps up some emotional stakes because beloved characters are down and out, gone, right?

[00:12:42] That's something. And we saw their corpses this week. They are dead, dead. Yeah. There's no, oh, maybe... Nope, they are dead. And that we see the scar and the whip in one episode, I don't think that that's a mistake at all. I think that's a very intentional...

[00:13:04] We're going to talk about that for sure. Yeah, for sure. And boy, this is a thirsty, thirsty season of television. I mean, people said that it was going to be the gayest show, but then it's actually... It's really the straight gays or gay male gays.

[00:13:21] But it's centering, it's sexifying, especially a male figure, which is somewhat unusual. Yeah. You know, I was thinking about maybe getting a red lightsaber after this episode. I saw your comment and I was like, oh yeah, that's a good way to say it.

[00:13:36] I feel like Michael Scott's going to run in and go, I'm coming out hetero. So yeah, I'm really pleased with what's happening. I love the fan reaction. I love the story. We still have to learn more about... Oh, what's the Wookiee's name again? I apologize, it's early. Kalnaka.

[00:13:57] Kalnaka. You can hear him in that song that I wrote. Yeah, that's right. So we still have to... Next week? I know we've got some Kalnaka stuff coming up. I hope we get back to the coven and the witches at some point.

[00:14:10] We've got Sol being very sinister and ominous by taking... Is it Osha on the ship? Or is it May? May is with Sol right now and Osha is with her. Yeah, so May strapped in on the bed and all this kind of stuff.

[00:14:26] So I think she's building tension really nicely. And I think the last episode we had a lot of good moving around. We moved the plot forward, we opened up with some new stuff, gave us some new mystery, and answered some questions and opened up a whole bunch more.

[00:14:46] So from a pacing standpoint and the plot delivery points, I feel like we're moving along. At first episode I was like, oh, I don't know. And this is cooking. I think she's cooking and I'm glad to see it.

[00:15:02] I'm glad that the Star Wars fandom has something to rally around on a cause. This is a good show, it's lore consistent, and we're having fun. So all y'all can... There's a lot of fun conversation going on online with the memes and the theory crafting.

[00:15:20] Yeah, Hot Lore Summer, right? It's happening. Yeah, full on Hot Lore Summer. Jon, what did you think of this episode? At times I was like, alright, get to the point. I do think that there were certain points like,

[00:15:33] we need three times for Sol to be interrupted when he's about to tell May. That was a little silly to me. Fair enough. That was a minor quibble because most of it was really great. One thing that I thought was really interesting is that

[00:15:47] people before have said that the dark side definitely lends itself to desire, right? We're told that attachments... It lends itself to thirstiness. The seduction of the dark side, yeah. Oh, that's really good, I like that. Well, that's what Leslie Hedlund cited, that word especially.

[00:16:10] But no one ever talks about it because it's usually geared towards family-friendly movies. And here we have something where you can explore that a little bit. Andor went into that a little bit, but again, Andor is about the mortals of this world, not about the otherworldly force users.

[00:16:24] I like that. This is the first time that we actually get a Sith going. He lists desire as an emotion. And he looks her in the eye and pops a grape in his mouth or something. Like, come on. I did my second watch with the audio description on

[00:16:40] and it is narrated like a romance novel during those scenes. His taut muscle, the scar traces a line across his face. I saw, I think, a tweet... Oh, who's that big YouTube channel that does a lot of the breakdowns? Which one, New Rock Stars?

[00:16:59] Yeah, New Rock Stars. It was Eric Voss on New Rock Stars. And I saw a tweet just scroll by saying, no, you have to watch it with the audio description. He was like, watch, do this. And so I was like, huh, and obviously I did.

[00:17:12] But now that you say that, that's great. I love it. That's pretty funny. Yeah, I know. I mean, I am impressed with... I've done audio description when I've watched stuff with Bob and I am really impressed with how well they translate the visual into audio.

[00:17:28] The words that they choose and the pacing and the intonation. That's a lot of work. It's a whole separate mini production to be able to cue that stuff in correctly. To write it? Yeah, exactly. You have to be a really good writer.

[00:17:42] You have to do it around the dialogue and other sounds you need to hear. Yeah, no, that's really good work. So, yeah, I love this episode. This was maybe my third favorite of the season so far. It was a necessary... You know, last episode went at 11.

[00:17:59] So this is a necessary downcycling, regrouping, realigning now that we've done the sister swap. Yeah, I had a really good time with it. And there's a lot of very interesting lore teases and also just the relationships between the characters are, in my case, that's really sucking me in.

[00:18:21] That's maybe even more than the mystery elements. What's getting me into this show are the characters and their relationships with each other and the mysteries around that and all that and how might they develop. Cool. So I read a really great interview this week with Inverse.

[00:18:40] I shared that on the Discord. It was with Leslie Hedlund. And so I just wanted to share a few fun tidbits that I learned from that. And the first one is on the subject of the sexy Sith, Manny Jacinto first said no to the bare arms.

[00:18:55] Like he's normally... Leslie Hedlund's like, I was surprised because he normally is very easygoing about that stuff. But at first he pushed back. He didn't want to do it. But then, yeah, now here we are. So, oh, showing off his bare arms, you mean? Mm-hmm. Oh, okay.

[00:19:11] Sleeveless robes, yeah. Right. No, no. I think if he had been robed, I think that whole question of being enticed, being seduced, being drawn by the dark side and what it has to offer, I think that would have been diminished.

[00:19:26] And I think by incorporating the physical sexiness, I think it elevates that whole conversation. Right. I mean, and she knew exactly what the effect was going to be. Mm-hmm. I mean, she's... I don't know if she's attracted to men. I'm not going to speculate on that.

[00:19:42] She's married to a woman. She's married to Rebecca Henderson who plays Vernestra. But she knew. She was like, yeah, this is going to make people go crazy because she was saying... She basically is looking at all of us in the eye and saying, y'all are villain fuckers

[00:19:58] and you know it. And I'm going to kill you. What a statement. Yeah. Alicia, it's nine in the morning where I am. I don't know if I can deal with that yet. She's calling us out like that.

[00:20:11] Hey, I watch these episodes at nine in the morning because they release in the middle of the night for me. Right. She also said in the interview that The Stranger was originally going to be more in the background the first season and to tee up season two.

[00:20:26] But after she saw Manny Jacinto's screen test, she's like, oh no, no, people are going to be upset if I don't give more of him in the first season. So she rewrote. She said she rewrote one later episode, especially. Maybe it was this one.

[00:20:41] I just want to point out they keep saying Sith. So I still think she also says there's a reason why we hear Kylo Ren's theme, but she does also keep saying the word Sith.

[00:20:50] And she said about Jeky's death that she said the reveal was not that it was Chimera. The reveal was just that like it reveals that a dead body falls and you see this guy. The reveal is your favorites are going down. Welcome to your new favorite. Nice, nice.

[00:21:08] I like that. He's sweeping the table and yeah, we want favorites. We want to root for him. People really love Jeky, right? That was a huge fan. Right. And then we love the one who killed her. Even more.

[00:21:20] And so setting up that conflict of like, oh, you just made me hate the, you know, made me fall in love with the person I want to hate. Yeah. Like with Gawain and Crispy Cole. It's like, okay, you made me like Crisp and Cole for one hot second.

[00:21:36] Right. Or Otto. You know, there's scenes where you're like, oh, Otto's- I don't know. I still don't like Otto. This is House of the Dragon Talk, by the way. We're mixing. It's Hot Lore Summer. We're mixing our shows. Yeah, it's Hot Lore Summer.

[00:21:49] And so I'll put a link to this article in the show notes for anyone who wants to read it for themselves. And then we also know a bit about the cortosis, which again, you know, she emphasizes just

[00:21:59] she works with Pablo Hidalgo, who anyone who doesn't know he's one of the most important people in modern Star Wars because he's kind of like the he's like the lore master, basically. The lore keeper, I should say.

[00:22:11] And so she worked with him to make sure it was all accurate. So that's why we see it so brittle that Jeky could elbow it and break it that way, because it has these incredible properties, but it shouldn't be this like super metal that's,

[00:22:24] you know, undoes everything else. And also the fact that it's really rare. Right. And did we see a vein of it on the planet? We did. Okay. We did. So now we know where he got it and probably why he's hanging out there. Exactly. Why he's there.

[00:22:42] That made a lot of sense. And then obviously I think the next big round of conversation is this, what's the planet that Luke was on in the sequels? Ah, Ahto. But um, Leslie Hedlin, we're going to talk about that.

[00:22:55] Yeah, we're going to talk about it, but Leslie Hedlin came out and said it's not Ahto the planet. Oh, okay. I'm glad it's not. I think that that's too memorabery-y. Well, I mean, you're trying to tie together. It would make a lot of sense if it were.

[00:23:10] I actually, I was slightly disappointed when I found out it wasn't, but I think so. I thought that they were going to combine Ahto with his planet from Legends. And now I think that it's just the planet from Legends, which is like an ocean planet where

[00:23:24] they mine cortosis. And it's, yeah, it was an important place in the story of Sith Lords, Darth Tenebrous and Plagueis. So it's called Beldemic. Every time you say Ahto, I want to think Hak'tuah, but that's an old joke. I just learned what that is. I didn't even know.

[00:23:48] Did you see the original video? Well, somebody showed me because it was like, I don't know. You got to give them some of that Hak'tuah. All right. Kick me out of this. Back to Star Wars. Speaking of Star Wars.

[00:24:04] I think that every time we have a story set on one of the same five planets, the universe feels smaller. And this show is one of the first. A Jedi die. A Jedi does not get a sledgehammer.

[00:24:18] Look, I think that this show is a really nice breath of fresh air because it makes the universe feel bigger, not smaller. I think especially if we have Chimera become not a Sith Lord, but instead a Sith fan.

[00:24:35] I think that would be a really cool way to expand the universe. Like, of course, somebody would learn about the Sith, especially if they were part of the Jedi like that's in the archives, right? Like that knowledge is in the archives. Of course, they would learn about it.

[00:24:48] Somebody is bound to like that idea. Right. And that's just more interesting to me. It feels much more realistic. Right. I mean, I think that it's a combination of things. I think we'll get into when we get into the breakdown, but I think that maybe he was a

[00:25:04] Sith apprentice and is no longer or there's a few ways that this could go. Yeah. Well, and I think it goes into Vanestra and why did, you know, clearly there's a relationship there. Was she his, was he her Padawan? But why do you say clearly?

[00:25:25] Because of the Scar? Yeah. And just in terms of mystery show plot set up stuff, she's not a minor character in the sense of she's some sort of faceless bureaucrat that sort of, you know, whatever. She's now showing up in the plot straight forward.

[00:25:46] Like I got to go figure, I have to, I have to go. Not another rescue team, but I have to go. Right. Well, she feels bad. She sent Sol and the crew there to get killed. Yeah. Right.

[00:25:58] And now she's wrecking and I think she's starting to see the pattern of Chimera's movements and saying, I recognize, I feel the some familiarities here. And so, yeah, the, I think the whip and scar are our first straight up clues to point us in that direction.

[00:26:15] But then just looking at the characters on the board, how can we put pieces together to make an interesting mystery? And so it just feels like, oh yeah, these two are potentially there. She's got to be powerful Jedi, right? And I believe she's got a lot of history.

[00:26:30] She's an extremely powerful, she's one of the most powerful Jedi that has ever lived. And Chimera has power because when he flicked his fingers and knocked them all on their asses, that was some power. Right.

[00:26:43] And so, yeah, there's just a lot of clues there that make me feel like there's a connection and did she screw up in some way? And, or, you know, what happened? So that's, I'm engaged because I want to know why did these two come apart?

[00:26:57] What's dark in Vanestra that allowed Chimera to, you know, taste the, you know, taste that and to want to have more of it? Or what did she do or stop him from doing or whatever? There's something there.

[00:27:12] And I think there's a darkness in Vanestra that has to be part of the cause of Chimera's path. Yeah. So I definitely agree with everyone that, of course, the scar on Chimera's back looks like it could be a whip scar, although it forks.

[00:27:30] So it would be two whips. Or alternate theory, could it be a lightning scar? You went crazy from the lightning? I mean, look. Like force lightning, like a Sith attacked him because maybe he's an age. So he says he used to be a Jedi.

[00:27:48] So okay, we'll take that at face value. A long, long time ago, whatever that means, because he looks like 30. But- Well, he could be using his force powers to keep himself DH'd. Is that a thing? I mean, he would be-

[00:27:59] Haven't we seen the opposite with the dark side though? Like usually the dark side really- It corrupts the way you look, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So- But maybe he's, ooh, but maybe he's different in some ways. Or maybe, yeah, I don't know.

[00:28:10] I have like mind transfer theories brewing in my head or something that he's cloaking his appearance or, yeah. The dark side of the force is a path to many physiques. Some consider it to be unnatural. Unnatural. Yeah, so I don't know.

[00:28:26] He was definitely, let's say he was definitely a Jedi. If he says so, I have no reason not to believe him on that. But maybe he was already also a Sith and left or was rejected or thrown away, as he said in his own words.

[00:28:39] And now he's looking to start a new type of order, cue Kylo Ren theme song. Which I think plays into some of the themes that we're dealing with in terms of the witches

[00:28:53] and the Jedi coming in and Mae and Osha and, oh yeah, we're going to make you a Jedi and you're going to come in and it's like, oh no, you washed out, bye. Right? And now he's like, okay, but why?

[00:29:07] And then she's dealing with the whole thing's like, well, why aren't you a Jedi? Why didn't you complete your training? Well, I failed. Did you fail or did the Jedi fail you? I think there's something really interesting there as well. Yeah. All right.

[00:29:22] Well, should we get into discussing? I know, David, I think you have to. I'm going to head out. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to throw some digits off my hands and celebrate our independence from the British. You make sure you keep that emergency room on speed dial. 100%.

[00:29:40] But thanks for letting me stop on. John threw down the gauntlet, so I had to come at him. Well, thank you for stopping by and sharing your thoughts. It's good to hear. I'm glad this show is firing on multiple cylinders. I'm glad for our community.

[00:29:54] I'm glad for the fandom. And so yeah, 100%. Yeah. All right. Talk to you guys later. All right. Okay, so John and I go forward with episode six, Teach Slash Corrupt. So we've got that slashy episode thing again. Yeah, I kind of like it.

[00:30:15] It is a unique thing for this show. Yeah, no, I like it. But then, you know, of course, then I ask, what does it mean that some have the slash titles and some have the solo titles that obviously link up? So we're still waiting.

[00:30:26] I still think next week we're going to get free will or choice, as you said. Yeah. But Star Wars Explained, I think it was, pointed out that the titles are one word when the sisters are together in the same place. So maybe that's it. That seems plausible.

[00:30:40] I like that. So the writers credited for this episode are Leslie Hedlund and Jocelyn Beal. And Beal, Leslie Hedlund, of course, is the showrunner. And Beal is a playwright turned TV writer and producer who worked on Russian Doll, which Hedlund did.

[00:30:55] And she's got a habit of much of other stuff. And the director this time is Hanelle Culpepper, who's best known for her episodes of 90210, Parenthood, Criminal Minds, Revenge, Grimm and lots of Star Trek stuff like Discovery and Picard. Nice. Yeah.

[00:31:11] So for this one, the action is basically split between two different locations with two sets of characters. So let's just focus on one set at a time and then do a little Vernestra interlude. OK, sounds good.

[00:31:24] So we've got part one is May and Sol and then Basil and Pip are also there. And this is do you think this is the teach side of things or do you think they're trying to suggest this could also be the corrupt side of things?

[00:31:35] I don't think she's teaching it. I don't think he's teaching anything right now. So I think perhaps corrupt, but it's not Sol corrupting. I think it's Osha trying to corrupt the ship. Or May trying to corrupt. Yeah. Fake Osha. Fosha. Right.

[00:31:50] She's she's like, I don't know how to do this. Let me reset. Well, she basically killed Osha's droid. Yeah. Did she did May kill Pip? Because if so, I think May killed Pip. That's the worst thing I've ever seen. Yeah. She just killed a droid.

[00:32:03] Oh, what if I factory reset you? And it was so casual too. Uh huh. Yeah. I think she didn't realize until later when Sol's like, you know, Osha always loved that droid and she's like, oh, and he's not even on the right body. And yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:16] I wonder if that'll be like the last straw because think about it this way. Osha. Yeah. We've heard multiple times, including from Sol this episode that Osha is really attached to that droid. Mm hmm. If that's Osha's last attachment. Right. She's going to. To lose now.

[00:32:33] Is that grief going to fuel her fall to the dark side? Yeah, I do want to just point out there is something that happens later in the timeline where a favorite protocol droid who we all know and love he gets reset

[00:32:47] because they want him to be able to access the Sith language, which is forbidden otherwise. And his eyes turn red. Is that why? Yeah. Oh. His eyes turn red like we see Pip's turn red in this. And I mean, sorry, minor spoiler, but like that turns out okay.

[00:33:04] So there's hope. Okay. So I wonder, I wonder if it's like, I'll put you into factory mode, but there is still like your memory bank somewhere. You just can't access it right now. Maybe, maybe the there's a backup in his body or something. I hope. I don't know.

[00:33:19] She looks pretty emotional when she lost the head. So I don't know. Yeah. We'll see. But this is definitely the thing that may has done that I'm most mad about. Yeah, it was pretty cruel. And for what? Yeah, exactly.

[00:33:33] So for this one, I just took like brief synopses from Star Wars dot com, the official synopses. And then we'll get more deeper into like the lore and key lines and things like that. So Star Wars dot com says about this part, nothing is as it seems.

[00:33:48] Jedi Master Sol plots a course for Coruscant after making a harrowing escape from the tragedy on Kofar. But there's an impersonator aboard the Polin, Mei disguised as Osha. Just as they're about to jump to light speed, the ship's power fails, sending

[00:34:04] quote unquote Osha off to put her non-existent mech neck skills to good use. After evading Pip and Fuzzle, who sniff out the ruse, Mei plans to beat Sol to his confession, trying to long range comms to inform Coruscant about the truth of what happened on Brendok.

[00:34:21] But the Jedi Master stuns her, promising to finally tell her his Brendok story next week. So Jon, I have to ask, how are your solspitions after this episode? Again, I don't think he directly did anything wrong, but I think he participated in the cover up.

[00:34:38] He was an accessory after the fact. He says time for me to face the high council to tell them everything. So he feels like he has something to tell. But this is also and like I feel dumb saying this after we were like, oh, they're

[00:34:51] putting too hard at Chimera. He can't be the Sith Lord, which I still think he's not the Lord Lord. But yeah, it feels like with Sol, like he's feeling guilty and they're trying to

[00:35:01] make us wonder if he's guilty, but maybe this is a misdirect and he is like he's a little bit guilty, but not like, you know, right? Right. I think what I think part of it is he he felt he probably felt like it wasn't his story to tell.

[00:35:18] Right. Because this was really the story of the the other Jedi who did the wrongs. Right. I don't know. Right. I know that this Jedi Council is about to face an audit and they hate transparency.

[00:35:34] So I think that if we're going to if we're going to play that game, I think perhaps they knew about some kind of threat like Chimera, maybe not Chimera himself, but like Chimera that was on Brandock and they hit it because they knew that nobody

[00:35:49] wanted to hear about it. Nobody wanted to actually address it. Well, I think the senators and we'll talk about that in a second. But the senators that they're talking about with this Jedi audit, I feel like this

[00:35:59] is setting up leading into the separatists that appear in the next era. OK. All right. I'm into that. I like it. So we get to by the way, Saul, he calls out emergency code zero and this is a critical distress signal for the Jedi.

[00:36:19] So this is like emergency code zero is just like this is the ultimate max emergency call SOS. Oh, wow. Makes sense, though. Yeah. So do you think like the whole thing where Saul he turns off his tracker and leaves?

[00:36:39] I think he heard like they were having disrupted communications back and forth. But I feel like he heard her say stay there and then turned off his track tracker and left immediately. Did you get that sense, too? And why do you think?

[00:36:52] I think he what I maybe he didn't know it was May at first and then he later decided, well, now that I know it's May, I'm going to have I'm going to have an

[00:37:04] audience with her before they get here because we see that right after he goes away, the Jedi get there. You know, the hyperspace is fine. You know what I thought was interesting was Vernestra is so nervous about flying into hyperspace.

[00:37:17] Is that because she was so involved with the Nihil stuff? No, it's because it's because she when she was younger, at least when she was in hyperspace, she would sometimes get these visions and she didn't enjoy the experience of it. Interesting. Yeah.

[00:37:35] That was a fun little Easter egg for book readers. OK. Yeah, I wonder if I think I still think that Saul knew it was May the whole time, but he only he only knocked her out when she was like going to make the call.

[00:37:48] And he was like, no, no, no. OK, but I think he like obviously he called her out with Pip the droid. But I think even when he sent her to fix the ship, he knew like this is not the Mechnec sister. Right. That's my interpretation. Right. Yeah.

[00:38:06] Maybe that was a test. Yeah, that's kind of what it felt like. Like he could fix the ship himself. But he's like, OK, let me see if that's actually her first. Right. Do you think this all even know the Basel's on the ship?

[00:38:19] Because it seems like Basil's always flitting around in the background and not like interacting with him. Yeah, could be. Could be. I don't know. Do you think that Basil caused the power outage to lure May so he could try to attack her, which was adorable and ineffective?

[00:38:36] I could see it. Basil is smarter than we want to think. Yeah. I love that like he and Pip were kind of squabbling like kids the first time they met, and now they seem to have done a team up. Right. That's pretty funny.

[00:38:52] OK, so meanwhile, while this is going on, we've also got Vernestra, who's she goes back to Kofar with a mission team and makes a startling discovery, which is basically a bunch of dead bodies. So we talked about whether the light whip might be connected to the scars.

[00:39:12] We definitely see when she pulls it out, like she attacks an umber moth that was like just entering the clearing behind her. So the force is still strong with this one. Yeah, she's just senses. She didn't even look at it. Basically.

[00:39:25] What do you think of the light whip? I thought it was very cool. I want to see more of it. I didn't see enough. I didn't get enough. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was very cool to see it on in live action. It is from obviously she does.

[00:39:38] She designs this when she's younger in the books. We've talked a lot about it in previous episodes. I won't go too much into it, but like she can switch it. So it's either a steady state, like a regular lightsaber or this flexible whip type thing.

[00:39:53] And yeah, the light whips. This is not invented for the Hive Republic. It comes from legends, although there are in the Hive Republic novels, there's mentions of night sisters having light whips. So I want to see that now. But I do. It is interesting. It's purple.

[00:40:09] So that makes one of two people we know with a purple lightsaber her and Mace Windu. Oh, that's a good point. And you know, of course we have that debate of like, is the legend saying that it's like partially light and dark? Is that still something that's canon?

[00:40:25] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. We see her doing something else that's very familiar from the Jedi games. She's got psychometry skills, it seems, where she walks around and can like sense the force echoes of events that happened in the places. Right. Does that give you flashbacks? Yeah, definitely.

[00:40:45] I mean, that's straight up a whole mechanic in the game. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, there's a fun, well, fun Easter egg. I don't know if fun's a word. There's an Easter egg that I only found out in the Star Wars databank, but her

[00:41:00] ship that she travels there on, it's called Contaros, which Imri Contaros is the name of her Padawan in the Hive Republic books. So those particular books are set 100 years before this. So regardless of what happens with Contaros in those books, that character

[00:41:19] would, he was human, so that character would probably be dead by now. But just very interesting. A little Easter egg there for that or something more. I don't know. We'll hear theories from people and the feedback. What did you think of?

[00:41:33] I don't know if it's her new Padawan or he just works for her, but Mog Adana, what'd you think of the new not Yord? The new the new not Yord, you said? Yeah. He made me miss Yord. Yeah. Yeah. The guy serving. Oh, I'm really suspicious.

[00:41:49] Like really, really, really suspicious. I think the way that he's like, oh, you're coming with us. So I don't know if you should come with us. I was a little suspicious of that. I'm more suspicious of him than I am of Ernesto, to be honest with you. Yeah.

[00:42:02] Yeah. I just did. He rubs me the wrong way, but like in the way that Yord did, but it makes me be like, oh, you're the wish Yord. You're, you know, the Yord we have at home. You're not the good Yord. It makes me want Yord back.

[00:42:16] I bet it's like that same sort of, well, actually personality. Well, poor, poor Yord. He's gone. He's confirmed dead. He's confirmed. He was looking rather pale. Yeah. Yep. A fun Easter egg about Magadana is that his, his first name is named after

[00:42:37] the script supervisor and his last name is named after the director of episodes three and seven. For Adana. Yeah. That's fun. You know, who else has a fun name? So we saw her on her little Skype call with yeah.

[00:42:51] A species called an Abednedo, which we'll talk about in a second. But this Senator is called Acedewa Chewant or as it's more properly pronounced. It is actually named after that lyric. He's actually named after that lyric. Every Abednedo is named after a Beastie Boys lyric.

[00:43:18] So we've got the first one was in the force awakens. Hello, Asti, named after hello, nasty. We've got some other ones that are, and this is all like the Pablo Hidalgo. He's the one who's like, okay, you.

[00:43:34] So the first one was because JJ Abrams, who was directing the force awakens loves the Beastie Boys. And so Pablo Hidalgo was like, let's take this joke and run with it. And so he named all the rest of them after that. So anyway, that's a fun one. Yeah.

[00:43:52] The Abednedos. So they look like mammalian catfish people because they've got these like flat faces and mouth tendrils. And they were originally under dwellers who evolved to live on the surface. And they are actually like really intelligent. They are curious linguists. They live in chaotic cities.

[00:44:15] So they actually seem like cool people to hang out with. They're just like this species that shows up in the background a lot of the time. Yeah. There was one in young Jedi adventure is a pirate with a redemption arc.

[00:44:27] And anyone who's seen the show who asks which pirate with a redemption arc is forgiven. So the name, do you know the name Abednedo like from biblical references? I don't remember it at all. So Abednego is apparently like at one point in the Bible, Nebuchadnezzar II,

[00:44:50] the King of Babylon, he threw three men into a fiery furnace, three Jewish men who for refusing to bow to the king's image and they were saved and the king saw four men dancing in the flames with the fourth being the son of God.

[00:45:05] So that's where the name of the race comes from because that name is named dropped in a Beastie Boys song. Huh. Yeah. Who knew? Yeah. There's also just there's another like actual fishy species seen in the background a lot in this show called Selkath.

[00:45:24] There's one particular character who keeps showing up. So just that is a completely different species. The Abednedo are mammalian, the Selkath are fish. Hmm. So that's our entry into the Star Wars databank for today. Fair enough. But I do wonder this whole like Senator Ray in court,

[00:45:43] could that be a seed for next season? Are we because she made a point of saying the name several times and that he's never been a friend to the Jedi. So I'm wondering if that's setting up a season two story. Yeah, I don't know.

[00:45:55] I think as we get closer to the end of season one, I'm like what questions are we leaving open? Because I think it might be a lot. Hmm. I feel like we're nearly to the end of the questions, but well, I guess, yeah, I guess it depends.

[00:46:09] Yeah, because every question you answer you, you open up more. Like the more we learn about Chimera, the more I want to know about Chimera. Right. Exactly. And I don't think we're going to get all the answers on him this season.

[00:46:19] I don't think that was because he wasn't even supposed to be this big a part of the season. Right. So by the way, the part of space that they're talking about with where the senators are like banding together to say, we need to look into the Jedi.

[00:46:32] That's called the expansion region and that's between the interim and mid room. And so this is a different region of space than we talked about at the beginning of the series. And there was corpse sec where the Neimoidians were suddenly wanting to have

[00:46:46] shields repaired where they never had shields before. These are two vastly different regions of space, not really near each other. So very interesting. Makes me wonder if there's something wider going on that the Jedi are overlooking. Right. Hmm. I'm suspicious. Yeah, I'm very suspicious.

[00:47:05] Do you have the sense that Vernestra has an idea who's behind this whole thing? Yes. I think she suspects Chimera. I do think that it's very possible that that was an apprentice of hers. She said something, something to tip the scales.

[00:47:22] And that seems to be in reference to something only she knows in the audience does not. Right. Right. She didn't exactly defend Saul when Moggy asked about it, did she? No, she didn't. And I wonder if she's going to just, I mean, she was very quick to blame.

[00:47:39] Oh, sure. Right. Like she'd been looking for a fall guy for this the entire time. Yeah. I'm worried for. So I think she knows it's not Saul, but I think. She might set him up to take a fall. Right. She just, I think, I think less so than.

[00:47:57] Less so than the fact that she's a Sith Lord. I think that it's possible that she just wants everything to go away. You know? Mm hmm. I agree. I think that that's what it is too. And I know book readers are like, oh, but she was a hero.

[00:48:10] But yeah, I think you can also see. You can see the roots in her younger story of how she would end up becoming so many people become what they want to avoid. You know, they become their parents. She becomes her parents in a way, but it takes her.

[00:48:25] She's been alive for what? Like 150 years now or something or more than a hundred. Yeah. Right. Okay. Well, shall we take a quick break and then come back and get into the ocean crime, your side of things? Yeah, definitely. All right. Okay.

[00:48:41] So the other side of the episode, OSHA and Chimera or Disney seems to really or Lucasfilm seems to really want us to call Chimera the stranger, but nobody calls him that. Yeah. It's not the rings of power. Can we be honest with ourselves?

[00:49:14] Let's let's enough of enough of these mysterious titles. Just name people names. Yeah. Well, he says he doesn't have a name yet, but he uses Chimera like as an alias, but he's not a real name. He's like, my name is what was the one from a soca mall?

[00:49:29] Like or Mark Maroc. Yeah. No, his name is gonna be like Paul Bob. David John, you know, something basic. He says he doesn't have he's if he's so old, maybe he's lost his own name or something. He's like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

[00:49:46] I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. He says he's so old, maybe he's lost his own name to himself in some way or distance himself from it. Or yeah, who knows?

[00:50:01] But okay, so the Star Wars.com official summary of this part is meanwhile, the real OSHA awakens on an unknown world where someone has been tending to her wounds unmasked. The stranger begins to educate the former Jedi Padawan and his

[00:50:17] philosophy on grief and the power of the dark side attempting to seduce her to his cause. So, oh yeah, credit to Abby who called out the she's one who first found the name of those little creatures we find on this unknown planet. They're called the Skura.

[00:50:34] The Skura Skura something like that. Yeah. They're not the same as the they're not the same as the ones on Luke's planet. No, the porgs. Yeah, they're not. Well, so on on Octo there was the which is a a little bit of a

[00:50:51] location for anyone who doesn't know that shows up in the sequel trilogy. We talked about it in in the Dawn of the Jedi and other overview episodes in the Canon Timeline podcast. But yeah, so there's the porgs there which find they they could not show

[00:51:06] up but this is we know this is not the planet. I'll tell you why in a minute. But there is on that Octo planets these Thala siren, which we see a character milking at one point for like a turquoise milk and those look

[00:51:19] kind of like bigger versions of these screw up. But I think they are just completely different animals. Maybe biologically related. Yeah, who knows what's related in Star Wars? Everything's made up in the point. Yeah matter the script description says they're part anteater part duck the Skura.

[00:51:39] I like it. Yeah. Yeah, they look like little they camouflage is rocks like at one point OSHA walks by and they just freeze until she walked by and they pretend to be rocks, you know, yeah, and they're like nuzzling each other like little turtle doves. They're great. Yeah.

[00:51:57] But yeah, so they definitely labeled every other planet that we've been to in this show all the ones they made up and you know regular ones like ones we've seen before like Khorasan except this one. They make a point of calling it the unknown planets and Leslie Headland.

[00:52:14] She admits it looks like after she said it's not after I know it's similar and it was intentionally supposed to be similar in terms of terrain and feeling isolated and surrounded by water and less lush green and more rocky.

[00:52:28] But the idea is that the cortosis is mind on this planet. So I don't think that's the case with our toe part of the reason that this is his home base is that cortosis is a very rare metal.

[00:52:39] I don't think we say it explicitly in the show, but that's the reason it's not after so yeah, so it's not after because I know is not a cortosis planet which of which there are very few and it is filmed in a different place.

[00:52:51] I always filmed off the coast of Ireland and this is filmed on Madeira. Okay, which I really want to go to now because like basic most of the show is filmed on my Madeira. It's gorgeous. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

[00:53:06] So there is I don't know if you remember John that there was a Clone Wars little sequence story sequence about a cortosis mine that gets destroyed. That was on a planet called a Mokyvich if that's how you pronounce it.

[00:53:21] But most people think that this planet could be a planet that's only been in legend so far called baldemic like I mentioned and baldemic is described as an ocean planets with rocky tropical islands and in the outer rim and it's

[00:53:38] mostly the people who visited there where they're like for science and also for the cortosis deposits and yeah, it happens to be where the story between the Sith Lords Tenebrous and Plagueis came to a head in Legends. So could play the same role here.

[00:54:01] Yeah, if it's the same. Yeah, huh? I'm into it. I'm into it. I'm like you're selling me on the on the lore here. Yeah. No, I think it's I think it's fun. I love I love because like David said it doesn't take anything away if you

[00:54:18] don't if you're not like, I don't know. It's just a planet whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad that you brought up cortosis because I did not remember it from the Bane books and you know, and it's even name drops in this episode. Right?

[00:54:32] Like they finally said it right. The minute I heard that I felt you in my mind my force bond with you. I felt you point at the screen like Leo and that meme see it's real. Yep. Did you also notice that both sisters?

[00:54:48] So of course OSHA now has one of May's knives or probably more because maybe seems to just have endless knives, but they both approach each other's Masters with a knife. Do you think that means it's like showing they're more alike than OSHA thinks?

[00:55:01] Yes, I think that she would like to I think well, I think both of them deny their parts of the other one that are in them right? Like one of them wants to be fully dark.

[00:55:10] One of them wants to be fully light and I don't know that Maya wants to be fully dark. She wanted to be with OSHA fully with OSHA and that was with OSHA was like that's too much. Okay, fair enough. That's my interpretation at least. Fair enough.

[00:55:26] I need I don't know about you but I need to know why OSHA left the order and I hope that that's I'm sure they're eventually going to tell us but I hope that that's one of the mysteries we get resolved in the next two episodes.

[00:55:37] Yeah, I hope so. I couldn't see them, you know moving that to next season. I think that's too much right? They teased it too much right? Right? Yeah. Chimers of course he loves to play on like this is this is how emotional abusers treat people in real life.

[00:55:57] They're like, oh yeah. No, they all rejected you. Nobody else will love you. Like I love you baby, you know, why do you still think of yourself as a Jedi? You have more in common with me. I'm the same as you. I like it.

[00:56:12] What did you think of his responses to her getting mad about him killing her friends? I mean he's so much, you know as much as the Jedi say we don't feel the emotions. He's way more cool and collected.

[00:56:24] Than they ever are like even soul has a fucking meltdown on the ship. True like he is on the struggle bus. Yeah, it's really just have an hour time and yeah, I think I think OSHA

[00:56:38] sees that and and I'm sorry may sees that no, it's so different from master. Yeah. No, I meant I meant soul is on the struggle bus. Right, right, right, right. And may see. Yeah. Yeah. Macy's more remorse in him perhaps. Yeah, right.

[00:56:55] I mean, I think OSHA she accepts it pretty quickly what Chimera says to her. She's like you killed your he's like a man who doesn't hesitate to turn you in for a crime. You didn't commit and it was like she was like, okay fair, you know,

[00:57:07] she didn't say that but it felt like that was her response. Then she's like more mad about Jackie which we fair. I'm also more mad about Jackie, but and then right where did you think that was going to go?

[00:57:18] It would have been a one-sided relationship like your master. Why do you love people who can't go as far or deep as you can? Yeah, that's a good question. Why do you love people who are less than you? Yes, right, right. Hmm.

[00:57:35] Because she says so yeah, but he manages to provoke her anger and we see her flex the force like, you know, he tells her apparently we learn that like I'll get into this in a sec, but apparently the force is

[00:57:49] fading with her because she's been it's been atrophying because she hasn't been using it. But now he says the shortcut is to just like feel dark emotions and use that side and she can now ignite the saber. It's the first thing we see or do. Yeah. Hmm.

[00:58:06] I like the whole seduction angle you get more flies with honey. Yeah. Yeah. Is an interesting juxtaposition where we hear from him. He says I lost everything when you lose everything you were fighting free and then may says to soul when you really want something it can

[00:58:23] cloud your mind you see what you want to see and it's that feels like what she said about that as much as much about the Jedi as a Sith but like she's coming out of that clouded mind and realizing the Chimera was manipulating her. Right? Yeah.

[00:58:38] Yeah, I it's it's interesting to see one fall into the seduction of the dark side and the other one get out of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, passing each other like ships in the night or like ships coming and going from Kofar.

[00:58:51] Yeah, and I'm still very curious how this forced diet stuff is going to work out if this has anything to do with that. Well, he says so he says that she asked him what do you want? Well, he's yeah. Okay.

[00:59:05] So he says let me see where did it where is it? I made a mistake with me. I thought she wanted more than just revenge. I thought she wanted what I want and I was just as well. What do you want?

[00:59:14] He says the power of two the power of man. Yeah power of Manny. So the power of two, of course, it calls back to the witches with the power of two is also of course the rule of two the Sith thing right?

[00:59:28] Right and also why you know, I think he does want to create a forced diet. So I don't know if he wants to create one between himself and one of the twins. Or if he was trying to manipulate one that might already exist between the two of them.

[00:59:44] Right, right. Hmm. Because I feel like he knew OSHA was alive before May did. Yeah, I think so too. I think he he hid that from her deliberately. Yeah. Yeah. What did you think of the helmet meditation sequence the sensory deprivation tank of the helmet? Oh,

[01:00:05] I absolutely she was going to pick it from the beginning like she was just curious like what can I do and she has she has been very very very. What do I want to say? She's been very very less less less than her sister her whole life

[01:00:27] right like her sister has always been the powerful one and now she is finally giving getting an opportunity to be something more and that's interesting. That's that's something that right is a temptation that I think she's going to fall for. Hmm. Yeah.

[01:00:45] Yeah, it is interesting because like they're using the same tools like meditation, you know to clear your mind which you could it's as light side as it is dark side, but we find that like there's a lot of

[01:00:59] But we see when they we there's a trope in Star Wars where Jedi go into a cave and they're confronted with the dark side. But also it's it's as Chimera says in this episode when you're in that

[01:01:12] state, it's just you in the force and what you bring with you. So you're bringing that dark side and confronting that side of yourself. Yeah. I found it. I thought it was really interesting. I thought it was really interesting. Yeah, I found it.

[01:01:27] I thought the filmmaking was very both like calming and unnerving, you know? Yeah, it was it was and yeah, I don't want to put that mask on I would be very frightened. Yeah, you can't see it all.

[01:01:42] He was really he was doing all that stuff without fully being able to see. Yeah, that's insane. That's insane to me. But I saw a tweet and you're going to have to believe me but Chimera walked so could run.

[01:01:59] So yeah, there's just a blind Jedi from later in the timeline. So how long when Chimera said he was a Jedi betrayed by his master a long, long time ago? I can still remember anyway. How long ago do you think he means?

[01:02:19] Like that makes it like he was emphasizing it like not it felt like more than like when I was a kid. It felt like centuries ago, but I've been frozen or in Stacey's in a back to tank. I don't know.

[01:02:34] Yeah, it's it's a weird one and I don't know it could it could be just that he sees his childhood as long ago or we could have some crazy, you know body transfer stuff going on like you mentioned earlier and I

[01:02:49] don't think we've ever seen a successful body transfer right in the visual media. Yeah, I mean, I guess you know if the one at the end is deemed successful, but it's definitely something they're going for so it

[01:03:01] could be I mean because there's a lot of things that the Jedi and Sith were capable of that become lost arts later in the timeline. Right, right. Mildly interesting, right? Madly interesting. What was it?

[01:03:17] Somebody said somebody had a good word for it in the discord and I can't remember who it was. Well, I it was Rafa and we've we've no no, but it was something else. No, somebody else said something else. Anyway, that's some hot lore.

[01:03:30] Yeah, no, it was another one. Anyway, we'll weaves. No, no, no, no, it wasn't. We'll one day we'll figure out how to Lauren it had Lauren it. We also find out that Chimera says he's not reading people's thoughts.

[01:03:44] He's reading their emotions and I bring that up because I already mentioned Venestos former Padawan Emery Contaros and it just seems interesting to note that he he had like an extreme version of empathy was his sort of

[01:04:00] force talent so it caused debilitating mental pain when he was dealing with other people's emotional states. So I just Emery was a blonde, you know, and this is a recently released book and you know, really recently released material and they're not he

[01:04:18] definitely does not look like Chimera just putting that out there but it is interesting that they both talk about this emotional connection and maybe have a connection with Vernestra. Right? What did you think about there's lots of questions we've gotten about this

[01:04:34] comment that OSHA said about the force fades if not exercised. That's a great question. And I was thinking about that. I was like, have we heard that before? I don't know. Really? I mean, maybe maybe we've heard that you get out of practice but that's way

[01:04:48] different than saying like your ability in the force fades. Yeah. Yeah. And especially she's only been out of the Jedi Order six years, right? That's not that long. Right. Well, it is. I guess it is when you're 20. Yeah, I guess that's true. It's too long time ago. Right.

[01:05:05] But I wonder. Yeah, I do think that they are setting up overall like we know that the Jedi become the force becomes more clouded for them a century after this. And the Jedi become more conservative and institutionalized.

[01:05:18] So it feels like they're kind of setting that up and how maybe their lack of, you know, doing these great feats with the force they used to do cause them to atrophy. Yeah. And that's why we don't see it later. Yeah. I don't know.

[01:05:35] So there are two explanations for this clouding of the force that happens in the next era of the timeline. One comes from and both of them tie back to this point in the timeline. So one comes from legends. One comes from canon.

[01:05:50] The one from legends says that in 150 BBY, the Sith Lord Tenebrous and later working especially with his sorry, with his apprentice Plagueis tore a hole in reality basically letting more dark side leak in. And then the Sith for the next century just kept continually expanding that

[01:06:13] terror until it clouded the light side of the force by the time of the prequel trilogies. The canon explanation comes from the High Republic book Light of the Jedi, which is the first book a lot of people read in the High Republic reading.

[01:06:27] It's the first adult novel in phase one, which is actually the second era chronologically. But anyway, we went through all that in the High Republic. I actually I just read this book. So it's fresh in my mind at the very end of that book.

[01:06:41] So you remember do you want to read the quote? Oh, sure. So it was from Marchion Roe, who was the head of this like of these Nihil super pirates that we've mentioned. And he's taken Loden Greatstorm, who is a Jedi who showed up in Young Jedi

[01:06:56] Adventures. He's taken him captive and says, is he young and Young Jedi Adventures? No, no, he's there with he's there with Bell, his Padawan who's hanging out with the kids. Yeah, gotcha. My family knew all about you people.

[01:07:11] They told me what you could do and how to resist it. He gestured vaguely toward the other cells filled with tortured prisoners. They're not getting out either. If they die, I'll just bring in more. Their job is to fill this entire deck with pain and anger and fear.

[01:07:28] Makes it hard for you to think, doesn't it? Hard for you to call on the force. He leaned back against a nearby wall and crossed his arms. My grandmother told me how to do it. She learned from hers. You don't imprison Jedi behind bars.

[01:07:43] You do it with pain. Yeah, so so who's who's Marta on that on that chain? You know, the grandmother, right? The single grandmother. It was probably the grandmother's grandmother, right? No, I think. Oh, she said she learned it from hers. Right. Well, no.

[01:08:02] Yeah, but and then she passed it on. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm so I but it says my grandmother told me how to do it and she learned from hers. Right. So the first one in that chain of knowledge has to be Marta based on. Hmm. Okay.

[01:08:16] But there's 100 years in between. So is there but anyway, they're passing it down through the rofes. Yeah, so it's like a family and for these are not for sensitive people themselves. So it's not the same as Chimera, but right. It is like this philosophy of you.

[01:08:29] Yeah, you basically distract the Jedi with echoes of pain in the force. Right. It's interesting stuff. Yeah. There was also in the hyper public there was a transdoshin Jedi, which is like transdoshins or like lizard people who are especially known for their

[01:08:49] there's they're often slavers and they often had Wookiee slaves. So Wookiees like to rip their arms off, but that's a neither here nor there for this, but but there's a trans transdoshin Jedi named Seeker who lost the force due to something called Mogrok syndrome, which is a syndrome

[01:09:07] that causes transdoshins to experience rage and aggression and the minds attempt to stave off the encephalop I can say that word encephalopathic disease encephalopathy. Yep. Medical people, you know what I mean? Yeah. But it makes it impossible for him to connect with the force and this

[01:09:29] this helps him in the part of his book by the way, because they are fighting this force eating entity called the nameless that John and I've talked about before. But yeah, just another way that it shows that like that seems to be the

[01:09:42] what direction they're going in Canon that you create more confusion and pain and aggression to cloud the light side with just negative emotions. Yeah, which I think that's more interesting than having like magical talismans basically. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. That's fair.

[01:10:00] Otherwise, it's just it's just I just don't think that's as interesting as like as doing it through the inherent weaknesses in being a good person, right? Right. Yeah, I mean and also just the fact that like the Sith have been whatever

[01:10:17] this this plan is they've been concocting it now for 900 years. That was how long the rule of two has been in place since the collapse of the old Sith Empire and everything. So yeah, a better it's something you have to give them credit.

[01:10:32] It's something they've been building and so it does it should not have a simplistic answer. It's something that has to grow over these centuries until they've reached the point to pounce. Yeah. So I found it really interesting just because we've been talking so much

[01:10:50] about like how much the lore of this show is or is not new. I actually found a Reddit post from nine years ago. So not really that recent and they say that basically this this falling of

[01:11:06] you know, the clouding of the force if they say it's not and this is by the way from fantasy liver fantasy liver says this is not due to Darth Sidious his influence on the dark side Darth Sidious being Sith in the next age

[01:11:19] important Sith in the next age. It's due to the Jedi themselves. So keep in mind that the Sith have only had two members of their order for at least a millennium how then does such a small order with nowhere near the

[01:11:32] resources of the Jedi managed to become so powerful especially when in the old Republic era there were thousands of Sith present and no Jedi managed to present and no Jedi mentions of their forcibility weakening.

[01:11:43] So this is due to the fact that the Sith order is very adaptive and fluid to a modern world while it is shown that the Jedi are held back by ancient traditions and a rigidity that has turned many of its members against the organization.

[01:11:58] The Jedi have not advanced their philosophy since the old Republic era and the stagnation manifests itself in their diminished forcibility in the Clone Wars alone. Oh and then we're going to skip that because that.

[01:12:09] So I just think it's it's interesting that like people are saying like oh this this show is making people question the Jedi like no this is from nine years ago and this was already the storytelling people were picking up from Star Wars.

[01:12:22] Oh yeah you know it's funny I was saying that I think that this is the most lore heavy Star Wars have been in a while. That's live action. I think the Adamant stuff has actually been the source of most of the Lord

[01:12:33] drops in the right years and the books too. But but as far as on screen. Yeah that's true. That's true. And a lot of these people saying that this is all new just didn't watch that stuff which you know not everyone can watch everything or read everything or

[01:12:47] you know it's just a massive amount of content. Right. But just if you think something might be new maybe look it up because maybe it's not right. Yeah. And of course we see also people sever the force.

[01:13:00] We see this a lot later in the timeline people do it intentionally because they've been traumatized or they want to like hide themselves in some way. We see very rarely but especially in Knights of the Old Republic to someone's cut off from the force by the Jedi Council.

[01:13:18] Is that permanent. Oh well spoilers for KOTOR but it's we're after that in the timeline so yeah. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. You know I own KOTOR and I've been thinking about playing it but I'm like one time to it is so dated. It's so hard.

[01:13:35] So I did listen to a lot of your episodes with Bob with that. Yeah. I was like maybe I'll just. Well that was yeah the KOTOR episode with was with March in what was with what was with March in. He's a game player.

[01:13:48] Well I'll play his games Bob doesn't know that Star Wars has not yet made their games accessible for the visually impaired. Well tell them get on it. Yes. Tell them if I can do my own text and notion they can make their.

[01:14:02] We have to shout out Cambrian Cambrian mammal on Twitter who tweets at Star Wars once a day every day urging them to at least put our alt text on their Twitter posts. Oh that's good. Yeah. Good to give them that nudge. Yes. Maybe someday they'll pay attention.

[01:14:20] They actually did it for like OK when there was what was it the Star Wars big convention in London. They did it for like a week and then stopped again. Why I don't know. Bizarre bizarre.

[01:14:35] Yeah well hopefully Star Wars Alice I will say as much as Ubisoft has its issues it is very good lately at accessibility and now that they're making the new Star Wars game it's coming out in August I think that that will be something good.

[01:14:49] Yeah I'm excited about it. I'm yeah that's gonna be a fun one even though it's not like I do tend to like the force users and this one is the you know the scoundrels but it's it looks great.

[01:15:00] The world building and yeah I don't know I really liked the battlefront campaigns and so I think that I'm going to like this. I think I'm going to get a lot. OK. So just see I wanted to mention two other like force nullifiers is one from

[01:15:15] Canon and from the high Republic books we've already talked about the nameless which are also force eaters and also the East Salamere are from legends from the throne books although we saw a statue of them in rebels the animated series. Oh really I didn't know that.

[01:15:31] Yeah I only learned about this creature recently because I read air to the empire. OK yeah yeah so they create like they're almost like like a steadying in wheel of time turn terms like where they get like a dome of where you just can't touch the force.

[01:15:45] Yeah but it's not like suffering like the nameless do it. It's just like no I feel like I've lost something like I've lost like a sense I'm blindfolded right. Not that it like destroys you. Right right.

[01:16:00] But just yeah so it seems maybe just putting out there these are the options that could be a play with what's been going on with OSHA but I think we're meant to understand it's it's mostly her own psychological trauma and then she breaks

[01:16:14] through because she goes the easy way through the dark side is that what you took away from it. Yeah I think she she's got some performance anxiety and Chimera sees that and he's going to play on that too.

[01:16:26] Yeah yeah well should we get into the feedback and see what other people say. Yeah let's do it. All right. Do you want to take the lead on the feedback. Sure people can hear another voice.

[01:16:39] Sure I know I know I'm I feel like I because this is my second podcast of the day. I don't know how much I have left of opinions. We just for anyone who's wondering we just had a deep dive into the fifth element for lorehound subscriber.

[01:16:55] So I appreciate that you've carried a lot of this podcast. I'm also I'm like here's more lore. Eat it love it. Yeah. It's it's the mistransport cake right. Yeah. Oh you want it more lower. All right. John M.

[01:17:11] After Episode 4 wrote in the Kalnaka death lends even more credence to Vernestra being the Darth tooth. Snakes are green just saying. So we know after Episode 5 of course we know that it's the Vernestra is not

[01:17:25] Darth tooth but a lot of people are still really suspicious of her and I thought it was really funny since snakes are green just saying. Yeah. He who after Episode 5 said I think it's most likely for Nestra.

[01:17:37] She's some sort of which she's got the whip and I think the light whips are which stuff but what if it's OSHA. Here's how I could see it working OSHA either carry darkness in the beginning

[01:17:47] and saw the Jedi opportunistically less likely or slid down a dark path in the wake of the trauma of losing her family and blaming her sister possibly she already knew May was alive. Maybe she finds a Sith holocron and she's like, oh, I'm not going to do that.

[01:18:00] May was alive. Maybe she finds a Sith holocron that teaches her some stuff. She leaves the Jedi Order with the intention of getting revenge or possibly innocently and then finds a holocron and or learns that may is alive while also getting all city with it.

[01:18:21] She plots revenge and disguising herself recruits Chimera who under her direction recruits may she orchestrates the whole thing intending to culminate with either becoming a dark side duo with May or taking revenge on May who she believes is responsible for the deaths of her family more likely.

[01:18:38] Maybe she's using pip as a two-way hollow in hollow con thing. Thingy thingy. All right, probably pip is some mode is in some mode that doesn't remember Pip most likely turns red ala C3PO speaking the Sith language.

[01:18:55] I mean that did this was written by the way to this episode. Yeah. She stayed home on the night of the first murder to communicate with Chimera in disguise. She hollow projects instructions to Chimera things go awry when May learns

[01:19:09] OSHA is alive and begins to repent OSHA has no plan for when the roles are reversed at some point Chimera becomes alarmed that his real master OSHA hasn't made contact and tries to ping her may is carrying pip now and we have a cut from

[01:19:25] from Chimera trying to signal to pip having a red light flash. OSHA being afraid to stun may but trying to recruit your yard is trying it to whack her make some sense. If she's trying to both use and kill me in the end doesn't want her trauma

[01:19:48] doesn't want her neutralized yet always likes having someone else to do her dirty work see sip lesson one zip lesson number one. Is that you have to kill the Jedi without weapons which actually means getting someone else to do it maybe via subterfuge for instance getting an acolyte

[01:20:05] to do it for you or a gazillion own troopers. Well, you pull the strings from the shadows. I'm not aware. That's a canon Sith lesson, but it should be or maybe it's from one of the witch cults.

[01:20:16] I'm not married to the idea, but I don't think it's completely implausible or meritless and good peace and good pods. You hoop you do you believe in aliens in the real world because I feel like we've uncovered a conspiracy theory level to you.

[01:20:31] That is it's new and I like it. I'm like, no, I think I think it's not completely implausible and we do have to say that they called out the fact that pips eyes were turned red which is interesting.

[01:20:44] So I have two questions coming out of this like if so if someone gave Chimera the thing you have to kill a Jedi without a weapon and then Chimera passes it on to a new acolyte.

[01:20:54] You have to kill a Jedi without a weapon is this like a kill a Jedi without a weapon pyramid scheme going on or could be anything nobody knows. I still think kill a Jedi without a weapon is to like corrupt them or yeah, I think so too.

[01:21:08] It's it's to get them to attack you unarmed because we've heard that so many times and even soul says it in this episode. Yeah, but I have a question about PIP based on all of this which is where and when and from whom did she get PIP? Hmm.

[01:21:28] That's a good question too. I feel like this is I will so soul notices this now, which means she couldn't have had it when she was a Jedi, right? I guess I mean he has to be fair. He's been spending a lot of time with her recently.

[01:21:46] Yeah, but that was her master. So he wouldn't know if she had that earlier right, but he didn't say that she didn't did he know but but I just feel like that's a conversation. They would have had already. Oh, I don't know. Maybe not maybe I'm wrong.

[01:22:01] Maybe he gave it to her good good good point there. But I but then I feel like he would call it PIP and not your droid. Well, I think that was also because he knew he was talking to me in that at that moment. True true.

[01:22:17] Maybe he was trying to see if she'll say PIP. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think he I my interpretation is that he knew the whole time that it was maybe thought like I'll try you know to get through with it to her

[01:22:29] while she's pretending to be OSHA and then at the moment she was like actually I'm going to call the cops on you. He's like, okay, we're done right, right. All right, Tom after episode 5 said hi John and Alicia.

[01:22:41] I had a theory about Darth Thirst he's claiming to be a Sith. I definitely think the theory that he himself is merely an apprentice is likely but there was an angle slash prediction. I had that wasn't mentioned in the show.

[01:22:55] I'm wondering if the Sith claimants we see aren't actually Sith if they are that they will attend to the attention of the actual Sith hiding in the galaxy. I can't imagine they'd be happy that there's a group out there doing things

[01:23:09] in their name and riling up Jedi to be on the lookout and below their cover. I could see if the current story is in a good place by seasons end that this season ends or next season begins with a confrontation of Chimera slash his master or even Chimera.

[01:23:27] So I should master receiving the Kelnock a treatment where to parallel may finding Kelnock a dead OSHA finds Chimera or his master dead with Darth Tenebrous or Plagueis stepping out of the shadows as the assailant would be

[01:23:44] a cool cliffhanger to end on and would allow future diving into what the real Sith have been up to this whole time. Thanks for all the coverage. I've enjoyed catching up on the timeline and hearing your thoughts Tom PS. I'm actually enjoying the spoiler policy.

[01:23:58] I'm somewhere in the middle of Alicia and John when it comes to Star Wars knowledge. So I take it as a cool way to quiz myself to see if I know what you're talking about. Thank you Tom.

[01:24:07] And we do have a special section at the end of the feedback where we get into more feedback about what people think about the spoiler policy. So okay, cool. Yeah, very nice. Yes. Thank you Tom. I like this idea that they're going to beat the sith out.

[01:24:22] This is actually something that I think during the next era there is a whole thing of what do we do if one of the former Sith becomes too loud? Yeah, that's a whole thing where a Sith Lord has to deal with that. Like, you know,

[01:24:39] there's PR there's PR for the Sith. Yeah. I think I don't think that Chimera is going to die this season though. I think that they're going. I mean, I think they know that that's that's a draw to bring people back for season two, but he's such a good.

[01:24:54] So I know people like don't want him to be Plagueis and I don't for the same reasons which are vaguely like Plagueis is supposed to be a moon and you know, I see the right age and blah, blah, blah. At the same time, if he were Plagueis,

[01:25:07] which it's canon, like we don't really know much about Plagueis in canon so it could be if he were somehow that that would be cool just because he's such a good villain and that's such an important name in Star Wars history that it would just be nice

[01:25:22] to have like a really cool Plagueis, but I think it's more likely he's venomous who is who was Tenebrous is second acolyte who he kind of tortured instead of. Yeah, yeah. He was like no you're not the one that I'm investing in I'm just going to do

[01:25:40] experiments on you instead. Fair enough and again this is something that we see recurring right is that they give lip service to the rule of two but in the end it's not really that it's not it's never really followed. Yeah, there's always extras right? All right,

[01:26:01] let's move on to Arthur after episode five said regarding the episode on acolyte where you made reference to red shirts. Here's a crossover opportunity I recently saw a cartoon entitled something along the lines of Schrodinger's crossover where a bunch of red shirts were locked in

[01:26:16] a room with a bunch of Empire stormtroopers given the troops. Sorry given the tropes see there's too many TRL. This is again where like on our for podcast given the tropes that red shirts are cannon fodder and that stormtroopers are incapable of hitting anything.

[01:26:35] What do you find when you unlock the room? Did the bullets bounce off the walls because that might help the stormtroopers right? Right. So it's really like both sides accidentally kill each other kill each other their selves rather right? Yeah, that seems fair. Yeah,

[01:26:52] a gatling a gatting get I can't talk anymore a gatting giraffe after episode five says regarding the use of two lightsabers as discussed in the podcast. I remember in KOTOR to they talk about different styles the main character

[01:27:06] uses so single two blades and double lightsaber an NPC mentions that the twin and double blades were more slaughter per swing and lightsabers were meant to be more defensive weapons than offensive. I've always taken this to mean that a Jedi defaulting to more than one saber

[01:27:26] would be seen as too aggressive or not sticking to the ideals of being a Jedi. Yeah, I'm going to push back on that. I don't I don't think so. I think we see plenty of dual lightsabers for light side users.

[01:27:38] I mean we see we see some but it is like so we that's when you see you have the dual light side lightsabers. It's called Jar Kai again as we mentioned last week.

[01:27:48] We do see some but I think it is a more known to be a more aggressive style. So like one character we see do it is a so good and we won't spoil her plot but yeah,

[01:28:01] she's we see it often with characters who are not like your traditional Jedi at least let's say yeah also. I think that the whole point is that you only have two lightsabers if two Kyber crystals call out to you.

[01:28:14] Right exactly so that's that's probably the biggest thing limiting it for sure. Yeah right so like the will of the force is with the people who have two lightsabers right I guess that's ooh so what does that say about Kym here?

[01:28:26] Mm hmm good question well at the same time sit off and get their lightsabers by taking them and corrupting them right so it's not the same as the way a Jedi you know naturally finds their Kyber crystal but that's but not all Jedi do

[01:28:38] because especially later in the timeline when you know Jedi aren't doing things the same way for reasons we see people just like finding lightsabers or inheriting them or like at this point in the timeline the dark sabers already

[01:28:52] being passed down from you know Vizsla to Vizsla on Mandalore right good quick good good points Mandalore. Yeah and we do know by the way that Leslie Headland said several times that Kreia who's a character in the second Code Nights of the Old Republic game so

[01:29:11] I talked through her whole story in that episode in the canon timeline podcast feed but we know that Leslie she's a particular inspiration in this show for Leslie Headland Leslie Headland said like yeah I looked at Kreia or Darth

[01:29:26] Trey as she's called in Sith terms and she's like I'm taking some stuff from her and one of the things she took from her is a lightsaber lightsaber style known as Trakata so Trakata is basically where you have a style where you take

[01:29:41] advantage of the fact that a lightsaber is one of the only melee weapons where you can retract the blade and put it back out again so they use this resheathing unsheathing motion to like kind of do a tricksy way so we saw this happen with

[01:29:58] Jackie where you know it's a second secret blade and then it just went pump pump pump punctured her real quick three times in a row this would be called the flash slash move another move that they do in this Trakata is this pass the

[01:30:12] blade where basically someone tries to block you with your blade and so you you pull your blade in so you can sneak behind it and then stick it out again and there's also the unbalancing block where you're blocking someone else and then

[01:30:28] so they have their lightsaber against yours and they're leaning into it so you quickly retract your blade and they fall forward because they're off balance now but the thing is not many people do this because both the Jedi and Sith look down

[01:30:41] on this or at least they did in Legends because they thought it's kind of like a cowardly cheap move cheating kind of right interesting where was I because I scrolled down Oh Rita reborn Rita reborn

[01:30:58] so Chimera is either Vanessa's Padawan not Emory who was her on in the books yeah okay or he's possibly any human oh it's a Lord whoever existed or something else I'm gonna it's gonna put that out there right like it could just be

[01:31:13] something else and I like right if it is unless he's extended his life or use cryogenics but Emory is blonde so I don't think it's him I do think I'm here extended his life or use cryogenics though and if it's cryogenics he could

[01:31:28] be anybody yeah and I asked if it could be mind transference and he said who hadn't thought of that puts Emory card back on the table also both of OSHA's mothers quote my mother could do that oh yeah can get inside the head I would

[01:31:42] like that I would like that if it's a it's like what is back here oh man what if but it can't be no but it can't be one of the mothers in Chimera though because then it's really creepy when he looks at her and says desire and pops

[01:31:56] the oh yeah I don't like that you're right you're right and Star Wars ain't gonna do that Disney's not greenlighting that right this is not this is not Westeros right right even in Westeros I don't think that's gonna yeah not not

[01:32:08] parents and children yeah like uncles and cousins and brothers here right Abby after episode 6 says Vernestra is definitely Chimera's former master I think she knows who did the destruction on Kofar will we see her will we see next

[01:32:27] our attempts to spin another story to look good to the Senate her Padawan Mog sounded sycophantic already suggested that soul might be responsible at least an Abby had a little smirk face there at least they collected the body of the

[01:32:43] bodies for burial on the dark the Darth thirst slash scars less desire aside oh my manny Star Wars is really horny isn't it she pointed out that the creatures are called scura yeah I mean yeah this is the horniest hours has ever been and

[01:33:01] I don't hate it it's as horny as mom yeah we did get a proper sex scene of sorts in and or that's true that's true I like Star Wars growing up John says I mean the show is hitting all cylinders for me and this mystery has got me

[01:33:18] hooked cliffhangers were staples pre streaming and all but I had all but forgotten how upsetting and exciting those erupt endings had me lol lol lol lol chimere is such a very dope character though he keeps saying things that have

[01:33:34] me convinced that he's not safe but he very much has tendencies lol lol lol lol what's going on I love John John's use of lol because it let me lol lol lol lol

[01:33:46] yeah I would say lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol thanks John I agree the cliffhangers I have mixed feelings about I kind of love

[01:33:57] them it's fun I mean as long as like I think they're gonna wrap it she said they're gonna wrap it up this season and you know leave some teases for a plan to but as long as it's nothing obnoxious and at the end of the season I

[01:34:09] love a weekly cliffhanger where I can be like although I am a little annoyed I'm like Saul frickin tell your story I know look I'll be happy as long as I'm not left with the identity of the stranger being I am good

[01:34:26] remember rings of power yes the whole thing and I'm like that and like that with the other stranger it's I mean so by the way I have to say that the other stranger in in rings of power sorry I'm gonna say a spoiler for the first season

[01:34:41] of rings of power now which came out over a year ago but I was really resistant at first that it would be Gandalf I really wanted to be a blue wizard or something

[01:34:52] but by the end it was like well yeah of course it's Gandalf it makes sense I'm on board and I think it's the same with chimera I was like oh I don't want to become your let it be someone less obvious but then the reveal of time your

[01:35:04] habit I'm like oh yeah no no no this is perfect right right I hear you I'm with it all right rocky Zim says interesting episode part of me wondered if he is an old Sith Lord like Exar Kun maybe he was possessed by Kun and was lured away

[01:35:21] from Roe wishful thinking on my part lol lol yeah so Roe is Vanessa's last name and Exar Kun we talked about him in the old Republic overview I believe it or maybe is anyway he was a yeah he was a former Jedi who turned to the dark side

[01:35:39] became a Sith Lord he lived like thousands of years before this but he yeah it's not impossible that he was in stasis or that he entered the mind of somebody else right we did mention in the over public overview that Exar Kun is

[01:35:55] probably most famous for inventing the double bladed saber right okay very cool Davy Mac says so we end up with soul saying he's going to tell all and OSHA putting on the helmet I'm wondering if the sensory deprivation that Chimera

[01:36:12] talked about might help OSHA clear her mind of any fiddling the Jedi may have done with her memory so then next episode we simultaneously get soul story and OSHA's true memory of what happened I don't know if the Jedi messed with her

[01:36:26] memory or just withheld information yeah I think probably with because we saw her side of things and she just had a limited view of what happened right and I think it's more interesting that way right just like a comedy of errors kind

[01:36:40] of thing yeah she was mostly in her room and missed everything she just heard like a scream and you know and whatever the drama with her sister was right all right Thomas C says I just found you and I'm head over heels did you say do 71 oh I've

[01:36:53] missed do I can't miss do do 71 says I am having having some time to think my latest theory is Chimera is Venestra's fallen Padawan picked up by Darth Tenebrae's discarded early on Chimera wanders the unknown regions and finds

[01:37:13] Ren Ren gives Chimera his philosophy and more training Chimera wants some payback on both the Sith and the Jedi so he plays a very long game okay I'm into that I'm into this this Knights of Ren relationship this is kind of where I am

[01:37:30] where I'm like well I think yeah maybe he was a Jedi and he was a Sith and he was like rejected from both and then found this new philosophy which might be connected to the Nile I'm still putting that theory in the table fair enough

[01:37:45] Thomas C says I just found you and I'm head over heels thanks for the passion and thank you for not falling into the let's hate Star Wars category would love to hang out and bring all my action figures well Thomas tell you what you you

[01:38:00] help spread the word about the lore hounds and you get a stall like a million downloads a month and we will we will throw a lore con and there will be an action figure there will be an action figure yes yeah yeah yeah this is the

[01:38:16] second time you promised a million downloads an episode and we got Lord yep yep all right it's out Maryland after episode 5 said I would not say that is needed for the existence of light nor for balance balance is needed

[01:38:31] because the dark exists in the Star Wars universe I've yet to see the dark being used for love or for good but it could it could be possible to my mind the dark manifests when people make harmful choices can I just say yeah I

[01:38:43] wonder I said on the discord to this that I wondered if the creation of ocean may could be the dark being used for good and didn't come your heel her too yeah yeah it's it's unclear because I thought it looked like he did a little bit but

[01:38:59] she did still have it wasn't she wasn't completely healed this episode but no but we we have seen in the books I noticed that there are times where it said I says hey I can do a little bit of healing I'm not green I will make sure

[01:39:11] that you're stable and then we'll get you right yeah exactly so that could be a thing yeah to my mind the dark manifests when people make harmful choices anger fear violence all exist and one must learn how much of those things they

[01:39:27] carry within themselves and decide how they are going to recognize and accept them without letting them be in control not to mention doing the work of whatever healing they can of those wounds of course darkness in and of itself serves

[01:39:40] a very important function in nature bulbs seeds and roots could not function without darkness between beneath the soil we are conceived and carried within the darkness of wounds digestion happens in darkness and it is only when the

[01:39:55] sun's light is blocked that we can see the other stars in the sky but these things are not about moral judgments or behaviors we have chosen the binary light and dark to represent a moral framework but that is distinct from a

[01:40:07] natural framework of course your mileage may vary um so I have to say just about that in general is that I do think the the idea maybe in the beginning was like the more black and white sort of fantasy storytelling that used to be more

[01:40:26] popular now in general the world is like fantasy fans are more interested in grey storytelling and Star Wars has also drifted in that direction we see in this show especially we see that like Chimera confronts all and he's like well it's

[01:40:40] not that you don't have darkness it's that you're trying so hard to deny it that it's getting in your own way so right and it actually reminds me of a conversation Luke and I had about the end of the big and 23 show and I won't

[01:40:55] spoil the ending but one aspect of it is that there is a yeah there's an entity that wants to create another entity to be as non-threatening as possible you know just and there's something like and they come across as benevolent but

[01:41:12] there's also just something highly sinister in that in that when we completely deny are the sad sides of ourselves or first of all the the lighter sides don't shine as brightly without that contrast shadow but it's just

[01:41:27] unhealthy also and it just always backfires so I think that it is about the balance in terms of like the Jedi are not right to say that anger doesn't exist and not that they say but then you're not right to completely deny

[01:41:42] yourself of it because there are is used to these emotions right as outlets and other reasons yeah and and there is also the the problem honestly that George Lucas has specifically said oh well actually the light side is balanced in

[01:42:00] Star Wars like the dark side is not part of the balance and I don't think I agree with him everything else so I don't know yeah I you're the only one who's told me about that and I believe you but I choose to ignore that because

[01:42:13] it makes no sense with anything else this is like this is on the level of talking saying that the Lord of the Rings isn't an allegory for anything you know like it's just it's just I think sometimes you're just too close to your

[01:42:28] work and you can't see what it is from a distance was also you know you go through phases where you doubt things like I think of with interview with a vampire and rice at one point she became a Christian she's like oh no there's

[01:42:40] there's not gays in my books and then her own son is gay too and then later on she like course corrected and she's like oh wait no sorry like here here's some extra gays to make up for that all right all right interview with a vampire

[01:42:54] interview with a vampire aside Marilyn continues I think soul didn't tell OSHA what happened on the planet sooner because she wanted to be a Jedi but was experiencing blockage from the trauma of what she had experienced on Brendok

[01:43:05] and this interfered with her training whatever soul knows is highly unlikely to have produced greater balance within OSHA I think or else he would have told her early on then she left before he could tell her what happened and he

[01:43:18] decided to leave it at that it's also possible that the political side of the Jedi organization decided the less said about Brenda the better I will neither condemn nor defend that choice so much depends on the wider political climate

[01:43:32] at the time what the Jedi were going through and what they had recently been through and many thanks to Alicia for asking her friend to ask a friend to give her reactions to possible Yoruba influences over the witchcraft we were

[01:43:45] seeing on Brenda I had recognized the similarities between the name OSHA and the Yoruba goddess ocean but I had no idea if the showrunners are deliberately using that echoing or if it's just to their minds a logical nickname derived

[01:44:00] from her full name which escapes me at the moment yeah no I think that it's quite possible there are like these these little Easter eggs like that in terms of naming it's quite possible they might have intentionally because you know

[01:44:15] because ocean is the OSHUN in spelt in English at least is the fertility goddess and you know the thing about May and OSHA are that they are like some sort of unnatural birth right so it seems like yeah there's a good chance there

[01:44:32] was a link there on purpose yeah that's interesting Marilyn says after episode six dang they are being so mean to us as soon as soul said I'm going to tell you when the music started I thought no but I was right it feels like TV of the

[01:44:47] 1950s and 60s to be continued yeah that's my biggest complaint and I know you like it Alicia don't worry we don't have to argue it I think Vanessa was Chimera's master something to tip the scales she said of the massacre ie to

[01:45:04] shift the political opinion against the Jedi which was already beginning to happen as shown in that brief scene with the senator and I really did not need that view of dear dead Jackie Jackie though I'm glad someone took care of

[01:45:17] the bodies could an island with cortosis which really sounds like a medical condition rather than an or metal you're not only be known if it's a truly be unknown if it's so dangerous to Jedi I know it's a big galaxy and this is I

[01:45:31] believe the outer rim OSHA as Pandora and the helmet is temptation don't go for the unknown that's dangled by a dark warrior but didn't her breathing just sound like a certain Darth blank yeah yeah yeah yeah about cortosis yeah this

[01:45:53] is in the outer rim but I think it's rare enough that and this is like early enough in the timeline where they haven't fully explored the outer rim and a lot of the outer rim was behind this so-called storm wall for a while because

[01:46:05] of the conflict with the Nile a hundred years before this so it's pot I can see it's possible they just don't know where this is I'm actually Marilyn I she kindly wrote in to talk in an episode that will have released just before this

[01:46:24] I'll talk about this at the end of the podcast and the Canon timeline podcast timeline and there's I read a passage in it that's from a myth set at the beginning of the Star Wars timeline that just kind of remind you how in the

[01:46:42] middle of nowhere space was to them and what an unknown thing it was it was like crossing going exploring the outer rim especially before this but it was like it was like going into the ocean and just hoping you find land you know right

[01:46:56] and the outer rim is one thing there's also other threats to the Jedi like the nameless that were not known before the higher right so there's plenty plenty going on that the Jedi are not aware of right all right let's move on to Maureen

[01:47:14] D you said I'm wondering when the premise of the Jedi having a legal right take children came into lore I've always seen this as something the family had the option to approve I haven't read any of the books I've always seen the search

[01:47:26] for reincarnations of the Buddha as inspiration for testing children with the force yeah oh yeah that that I mean they they ripped that in Avatar the Last Airbender but it's in here too yeah no yeah George Lucas said you know that

[01:47:42] there were definitely Buddhist influences on the Jedi ideology right and Marilyn says again I'm wondering if this sort of stance is a reflection of some previous very challenging conflict with the Nile maybe I've heard Alicia talking

[01:47:56] about that in the context of the Jedi themselves but I would be interested to know the wider implications for the Republic I also would like to know more about how much what how much authority the Republic has at this point and just

[01:48:10] how extensive that particular Confederation was was the outer rim considered wild at this point yeah so they had actually made it further into the outer rim until the Nile forced them to retreat so it is yeah it is kind of

[01:48:27] pretty wild out there in the outer rim and indeed because of this conflict it did lead to them pressing children to become Padawans and Padawans to become Jedi at a younger age in order to confront that and I think the effect

[01:48:43] that it had on the Republic is that the Republic did not have a standing army at this point during the High Republic they just kind of like would try to do the thing oh when a conflict comes up everyone has to send soldiers from every

[01:48:57] every planet in the Republic right which is a great idea but doesn't necessarily always work the way you want it to I mean that's that's a traditional like medieval feudal style military right exactly but I think basically what we're seeing is

[01:49:15] why the Republic and the Jedi start working more closely together and start becoming looking more like the same entity yeah which I think is an intentional sloppy it's an intentional obfuscation of what the Jedi are by the

[01:49:34] right all right so let's talk about the feedback from last week about the structure yeah podcast I it seems like you have a lot of notes here so I'm gonna pass it back to you all right well just I'll read this first one and then

[01:49:48] you can read the other three but so the first one the other three were I think all email feedback or discord feedback the first one was a three-star review left on the Star Wars canon timeline podcast feed on Apple and the review

[01:50:05] says spoiler there's no spoilers I love the lore hounds for their in-depth knowledge and insights into stories but the Star Wars acolyte pod is so spoiler restricted that it loses what makes the lore hounds great the lore so yeah I

[01:50:21] mean of course yeah you're free to give me whatever kind of review you want and of course it's not your problem if it hurts my search rankings and makes it harder for the fledging podcast to find new listeners but I do have to push back

[01:50:33] a little bit on the idea that the podcast lacks lore because I thought maybe it was the opposite that was the problem that maybe there was too much floor so I think there's an abundance of lore the it's I think it's the fact that

[01:50:46] we're not talking about specifically the movies you've seen directly that's throwing you and I get that I wonder if it helps to think about it similarly to how in the House of the Dragon podcast John you've read Fire and Blood but for

[01:51:02] David and for the listeners who have not you don't say future spoilers in that pod so it's kind of a similar deal here like it's not you can you might say in you know oh in Fire and Blood oh people know this Alice Rivers is going to be

[01:51:19] interesting but you're not going to say like well this is what her story plays out so I don't know I wonder if thinking about it that way helps with the people who are feeling similarly to not Qbert yeah I think people just aren't used to

[01:51:36] they aren't used to looking at Star Wars this way because it's always been told out of order and this is just a unique way to tell Star Wars and I think it's really interesting way and it hasn't been done before and there's so many

[01:51:47] resources that are already like here's all the references to later and we're trying to not be the wiki and we're trying to you know we're trying to do our own give you a different perspective yeah yeah yeah but your feedback it's

[01:51:59] been noticed in the noted in the balance of feedback so yeah definitely as always thank you for sharing your thoughts and if anyone else has any more thoughts you want to share then the inbox SW timeline podcast at gmail.com is open and I

[01:52:13] definitely want to hear them and if anyone does enjoy the way that we're covering the lore on this podcast and feels willing and able to leave a review on the Star Wars Canon timeline podcast feed wherever you're listening it would

[01:52:26] be a huge help in getting this little podcast stream that I've been developing over the past couple of years off the ground so yeah reviews that encourage people to listen are very much appreciated if that's not how you feel

[01:52:39] obviously then you know right but for anyone who does thank you in advance I love you all right Chris M. right and says hello Alicia I have never written in or anything but felt compelled after hearing the feedback you shared about

[01:52:54] spoilers from lower dumps I have loved Star Wars for as long as I remember as a youngling I would read Star Wars encyclopedias and would love to know all the little things trivia questions and the like I would watch the original

[01:53:10] trilogy movies over and over I loved it although as time moved forward I continue to watch theatrical releases and love Star Wars but I didn't make time for the lore I play trading card games and recently a fantastic game called

[01:53:23] Star Wars Unlimited was released and it's very fun and very good that's interesting I've been eyeing that one I just I just don't want to spend money on another game yeah I was just talking to someone else who's playing it anyhow this

[01:53:36] game got me to become intrigued with the lure again and catch up on all that I've missed so I started watching rebels and it's fantastic but there is still so much more what's next how do I catch up well your coverage has helped immensely with

[01:53:49] that your timeline podcast and your lore dumps on the acolyte coverage provide a very thorough and concise way for me to consume more and catch up with the Star Wars universe but most importantly I really feel it really fills out my

[01:54:02] understanding of the acolyte episodes themselves knowing the lore behind factions races time periods and whatever really really helps it all come together so please don't stop for all the podcasts I listen to that are a supplement to a

[01:54:17] TV series are for that purpose to fill in gaps that I may have missed and to simply better understand the content a bit of a ramble but I simply wanted to express that the Lord helps me enjoy and understand the show more and are important

[01:54:30] to me as a fan of Star Wars in general I am with the lore hounds for lore it's quite simple and you are doing a fantastic job with all of your coverage since it

[01:54:39] began keep it up hoping I can record my will he call at some point did you ever see I might have brought this up on a previous guy podcast but did you ever see that whole thing where like this guy was mad at his ex-wife after a contentious

[01:54:54] you told me that yeah okay yeah okay I think that's so funny it's like but for for anyone who didn't hear the story what he got a bunch of people to call her and

[01:55:03] will key sound no he put up posters that said please call my phone and do your best will key impression I really want to hear it which look don't do that don't do that but also it's hilarious and high it is fun all right well so yeah thank

[01:55:21] you Chris why thought John that you'd be excited about that I'm pretty sure you're probably the one who talked us into watching rebels Oh rebels I'm I'm a rebel Stan I actually think I think that the consistent good episodes of rebels are

[01:55:37] stronger than the Clone Wars I think the Clone Wars highs are really high but it's lows are real low and and rebels doesn't have that low I think it's a really really solid show from start to finish yeah it's true everyone should watch it

[01:55:50] if they haven't yet yep bango 31 says listening to episode 5 podcast and the chat about including some more higher public content please do I've only read the adult novels which I'm not particularly impressed by and I still

[01:56:04] feel like I don't know what the fuck is happening in the timeline yeah the adult novel you really got to read the YA novels at least because it's really incomplete I don't know why they have them on like a separate track they really

[01:56:15] should just all be included in the main track yeah I mean in the joint I think a lot of people don't want to read the junior novels because and I was the same way like because because they called junior novels so I'm like well I'm too

[01:56:27] old for that but then actually some of the junior reading has been like the myths that I talk about in my canon myths of ancient batu episode that just came out right before this those are technically junior myth like you know

[01:56:42] junior aged myths but they're just lovely little stories actually it's not it doesn't feel like a kid thing there are child books that's different but nice bango 31 says wait no I just read that one had a long day guys already last

[01:56:59] one reader reborn says I don't think it has to do with casual versus hardcore at all I think part of the appeal of the acolyte is that it's disconnected from the Skywalker saga the you know the you know who extremist haters aside that's

[01:57:16] probably the biggest reason some good faith fans aren't with it swinging it back around to the podcast that disconnect from the future of the timeline I think is refreshing in the same way I think the acolyte is

[01:57:27] refreshing every other podcast even the good ones spent a bunch of time talking about Anakin and the prophecy after episode 3 for instance instead you kept the focus tight in short what you were doing is amazing and unique and please

[01:57:41] don't change there you go listen this is this is you and I talked after we got that first email right and for me I'm like you have to just be unapologetic with the podcast you want to make because if you start changing based on

[01:57:56] every review it's just gonna be right like if there's if there's legitimate critique and you wanna like take some of that into account sure but tweak it don't change it you know right right no I mean and that's why I think it's like

[01:58:10] I keep saying it's the balance the power of man but it is it is the balance of the different like opinions where we find the happy place and if I said we had one person who complained it's not enough lower but I don't think that's really

[01:58:24] what they meant although that's that is what people who look for the feet are going to see first right but I think for the most part it seems like and someone else who complained about Laura being too much and then it seems like other

[01:58:38] people are like no this is a happy medium this is what I'm looking for and since it's what I was looking to do because what it's like like I said I think of myself as the first listener because if I'm not making it for myself

[01:58:50] as a listener then you know who am I targeting so yeah just trying to find the happy medium between that and I appreciate everyone's patience and being willing to go along in the journey and find their fun in it with I liked

[01:59:04] hearing like someone likes to quiz themselves about yeah oh what are they talking about yeah yeah so I mentioned already that's on this on the Star Wars Canon timeline podcast feed just before this day before this in the public feed

[01:59:21] I released a new episode that but I backdated it to me so this is the beginning of my backdating experiment so I know how that's going to show up in some pod catchers but not in others so I'd love to hear if that like popped up

[01:59:35] with the notification for people if you're a subscriber to that feed or how that works but you might have to scroll back to toward the beginning of the overall podcast list because this is a it's ancient myths it said at the very

[01:59:49] very beginning of the timeline and yeah in addition in my canon ancient myths of planet Batuu there are updates on the Dawn of the Jedi film and there's our first mailbag episode with Bob showing back up to talk share some of his

[02:00:06] free acolyte thoughts too and also while I was doing research for this episode I found more about like the nature of the force which is something some people have been asking about so I do a little a little dive into how that's been

[02:00:20] talked about in various especially books at the end yeah cool and then on the rest of discord yeah you guys are deep in it with hot tea so now you're doing what three hot tea episodes a week yeah it's kind of stupid but it's fun it's good

[02:00:35] it's good it's good content we do we're doing our hot takes Sunday night we're doing the main and the hot takes are patron and supercast exclusive we're doing the main coverage for that which was like two and a half hours this week

[02:00:47] and then another hour and a half feedback episode just released yeah wow cool yeah I do it a lot yeah all the way in on House of the Dragon but I think most of the audience is too so yeah yeah and and of course second breakfast we

[02:01:04] just released that two and a half hours on that one too for hotel breakfast and also a new form of raw dogging it's not what you think I promise it's safe for work ish I mean yeah and yeah then we also just film like we said right before

[02:01:25] this our new 11 Z's where you do I filmed it recorded it whatever we put it nobody had a camera I didn't brush my hair yet today yeah we recorded it about the fifth element it's it's our new monthly extra movie breakdown for subscribers

[02:01:42] so that was fun it was I love that movie you were okay David was me yeah we definitely have the Goldilocks treatment on that podcast but that's okay yeah that's all right yeah and we've got the rings and rituals is wrapping up they're

[02:01:58] getting toward the end of the season one they finish season one oh they finish season one oh I haven't listened to the last episode yet I'm going to be on next week I have to edit it still but I'm gonna be on with Marilyn next week

[02:02:09] talking about the music of season one and then I know they're gonna have a feedback episode so you still have a little time to get in the feedback go write it into rings and rituals of warhounds calm okay and then radioactive

[02:02:21] ramblings is also doing the boys right are doing season 4 episode 5 this week other than that I think that's it for our affiliates right now everybody else is on a break including you on will shift us yes yeah yeah there's still

[02:02:33] definitely if you haven't yet check out that interview with glimmer sorrow because I was just really interesting even if you didn't watch beacon 23 but we're going to be back soon there with the dune coverage nice soon as I'm a

[02:02:47] little less overwhelmed with the acolyte fair enough fair enough all right so do you want to thank our discord server boosters do you have the music for me oh I do not actually that's all right all right to do to do to do to there you

[02:03:05] go discord server boosters narls Aaron K to lure the thriller to dork of the ninjas do 71 captain g56 Athena a and lore masters some Martian Michael G Michelle E David W Brian P SC Peter oh h patina w Adam s Nancy M do 71 Brian

[02:03:25] 8063 Frederick H Sarah L Gareth C Eric F Matthew M Sarah M DJ me wa Andra B Kwong you did I Jedi Bob Nathan T Alex V Aaron T subzero Aaron K Dali V mothership 61 narls Kathy W Stewart B and Adrian we're having a great time

[02:03:49] here great job Alicia that was fantastic music I just slightly a rhythmic but whatever who cares it's fun well thank you all for joining us for this breakdown of episode 6 can't wait to come back with episode 7 are we putting

[02:04:05] our money on free will or choice for the title oh I hope it's free will I feel like that's more interesting of a title right well it's their choice or is it I guess it's predetermined we'll find out next week see you then I

[02:04:26] know how to podcast is produced and published by the law hands you can send questions and feedback and voicemails at the lore hounds dot com slash contact get early and add free access to all or house podcast at patreon.com slash the

[02:04:40] lower hands and connect with us on Twitter at the lower hands any opinion stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any for listening okay David this is where we're supposed to choose a side green or black John my

[02:05:07] soul is as black as night your turn I am black for life so we're not fighting I thought this is where HBO wanted us to like pick sides and fight and stuff don't worry I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod but we seem

[02:05:25] to agree on one thing we both really like this show the politics the drama the lore it was made for the lower hounds and since we just finished recapping season 1 we couldn't be more ready to defend our black queen in the dance of

[02:05:38] the dragons and with the season pass option in supercast listeners can get early ad free access to each weekly scene by scene deep dive plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections see you in the lower hounds

[02:05:51] podcast feed each week for our dragon fire hot but probably positive takes a lower house house of the dragon coverage is also safer team green consumption side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore a heart and

[02:06:02] conflict with itself and an inescapable urge to read the book fire and blood by George RR Martin dragon seeds may experience burning