The Acolyte – S01E07 Feedback – Choice

[00:00:01] Okay, David, this is where we're supposed to choose a side. Green or black? John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life. So, we're not fighting? I thought this is where HBO wanted us to, like, pick sides and fight and stuff.

[00:00:24] Don't worry, I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod. But we seem to agree on one thing. We both really like this show. The politics, the drama, the lore. It was made for The Lorehounds. And since we just finished recapping Season 1,

[00:00:38] we couldn't be more ready to defend our Black Queen in the Dance of the Dragons. And with the season pass option in Supercast, listeners can get early ad-free access to each weekly scene-by-scene deep dive, plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections.

[00:00:53] See you in The Lorehounds podcast feed each week for our Dragonfire Hot, but probably positive, takes. The Lorehounds' House of the Dragon coverage is also safe for team green consumption. Side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore, a hardened conflict with itself,

[00:01:06] and an inescapable urge to read the book Fire and Blood by George R.R. Martin. Dragon seeds may experience burning. Hi, it's Alicia. And John. We're back for our part two of the Acolyte Episode 7 discussion. Since we made the choice to spin our feedback discussion off,

[00:01:42] because there's so much of it, you guys are really enjoying talking about this show, and we love it. We got theory updates, new theories, I'm going off on a lore dive into the Jedi Code and especially its rules and attachments, and more spoiler talk discussion,

[00:01:57] including from one of those mythical unicorn Star Wars fans some were worried didn't exist. I thought that was hilarious. Anyway, can't wait to hear it. Let's get into it all. For the record, this was recorded July 13th, 2024. And before we get into the feedback,

[00:02:13] I wanted to also just mention a new interview with Leslie Hedlund, and I know you don't want her to stop talking about the series, but I love it. This one was with Collider. This is also about Episode 7.

[00:02:24] And there's just a few things she said in this interview that I wanted to pull out because I thought they were very interesting. And one was about the Stranger's Reveal, about the fact that a lot of people were like, well, we knew who the stranger was.

[00:02:38] And so she said, the Stranger's Reveal was one that we weren't hiding very much from the audience. It was very Wesley in the Princess Bride. It's more like she doesn't know what she going to do. We know. John's holding up a Princess Bride DVD cover.

[00:02:55] I happened to be watching that with the family yesterday. So when you said that, I was like, oh, I have that next to me. Oh, nice. Yeah, that's one of my all time favorites. Well, it was on my essential Alicia list for 11Zs.

[00:03:06] I think I picked it and then it didn't get it. That's okay. But then, yeah, Fifth Element got it, which is fair. Yeah. But yeah, so did you have any thoughts about the Chimera reveal? I thought for me, I didn't want it to be Chimera as the stranger.

[00:03:24] And then when it happened, I was very happy. Yeah. Like I just think that Manny Jacinta did a really great job embodying the character, embodying this chaotic Sith. And that's really great.

[00:03:41] I keep wanting to call him Jason Mendoza because one day I'm just going to do it without correcting myself and everyone's going to at me. But Manny Jacinta is really doing an excellent job, and it's great to see him have brains here.

[00:03:53] Yeah, I think that that's also what she was saying when I quoted her last time. She was just basically like the reveal is not that he's a stranger. The reveal is how much you're going to love him as the stranger. Mm hmm. You're going to feel like.

[00:04:06] What did you call us? I think you used a special term for us. Y'all are. Oh, villain fuckers. I mean, guilty as charged. Let's talk about the Forsaken and the Wheel of Time. Oh boy. Well, on the other side of this scale, maybe we've got Saul.

[00:04:26] And she said about Saul. How do you create a Jedi character that can do something so irrevocably wrong and still in his heart of hearts believe that he was atoning for that sin via his love for OSHA?

[00:04:39] And I think, you know, that mission accomplished there, I would say. Yeah, they did a great job. And again, doing an amazing job appearing young and just going down on those new legs. And so what she says is so contrasting.

[00:04:53] You know, we talked about the parallel between Saul and the stranger is Disney insists we call. And she said about Saul, what's interesting is that Saul offers her OSHA a ticket to an institution. It's the institution he's part of. It's the institution he believes in.

[00:05:10] It's an institution that many, many, many members of the galaxy believe in. So that's not a bad thing. But that's what he's offering her.

[00:05:18] He's saying, do you want to be part of this great legacy that you've already shown some interest in as a child and that I am living proof of success and happiness and contentment? And OSHA is like, absolutely. Sign me up. I'm eight.

[00:05:31] Well, you know, it's funny because I think back to when I was in middle and high school and I was getting really into playing music. And you know what the music teachers tried to tell me to do is teach music.

[00:05:45] And it's so true, though, that and like when you're a kid, how many other students are just like, yeah, I want to be a teacher. Yeah. And not not because they necessarily really do. And, you know, teaching is a noble profession.

[00:05:59] We love our love and support our teachers. I was raised by a kindergarten teacher for the record. But it's just the fact of it's really hard for someone so entrenched in something to recommend a different path.

[00:06:12] And so the Jedi, of course, are like, oh, you come over here. We know what we're doing here. It's it's a bit of self validation of your previous choices. Yeah. Yeah. And in contrast, she says what the stranger offers her is what if the reigning institution is wrong?

[00:06:30] Have you considered that in your adult life? Like a partner, the stranger says I've experienced something and I think you would benefit from it. I have a similar history to you.

[00:06:38] And in adulthood, I would lay it at your feet as a possible toolkit for you to pick up and forge your own life with. But yeah, you can see if if the previous institution that you were promised would be everything has failed you and let you go.

[00:06:55] And then someone says, well, I'm just going to give you the two tools to create your own path. Now, that would be a tempting invitation to the dark side, especially given by a naked many. He said, you're coming out of a pool. I know. I know.

[00:07:09] But but as an eight year old, I don't know about that. I don't know about that. Let's not as an eight year old. She's hearing this as an adult. Yeah. OK, OK. I see what you're saying.

[00:07:16] I was like, I don't think he's using the same tactics on May when he finds her. But I hope I hope he's not using the same tactics. Yeah, we don't know how old May was when she met him. I'm curious. That's true. In the finale.

[00:07:28] I want I want her to have been living a feral life, you know, just cast away for a while and just alone on Brenda. She like talks to her tattoo. Yeah, she talks. She talks to her marking.

[00:07:40] She just has those jelly flies like pinned up all over her head. Wilson. Oh, God. She's like, oh, I used to talk to you all the time on Brenda. Yeah, maybe that's how we find out that she sees the forest. I had to. Hmm.

[00:07:55] Although I guess it's not technically a forced diet if they are like two halves of the same whole. Literally, that's not quite what a forced diet is. The power of point five.

[00:08:08] And speaking of that, so Hedlund also said, also part of the intrigue of them being a consciousness that split into two bodies. What that means to me is that they are patient zero of the attempt to use the force to create life. It worked and it failed.

[00:08:21] So they were only half as strong as our midi-chlorian Jesus. They are fractured. So, yeah, I hope that I know the thing is the people who need to hear that the people who are crying like, how dare you take away the thunder of a later character?

[00:08:38] They're the ones who need to hear that. But they're also the least likely to. So are we now explicitly explaining how? Well, they did it in the show. Midi-chlorian Jesus is born. Oh, well, no, because she can't. Leslie Hedlund does not have the rights to.

[00:08:56] She does elsewhere in this say, like, you know, well, some people say that it was he was created by the Sith. Some people say that he was just created by the force. And so she doesn't have the answer to that. She can't answer that.

[00:09:14] But she's just saying in her mind, these girls don't worry. They're not meant to be as strong as that character because they're split. OK, all right. Fair enough. Fair enough.

[00:09:25] I'm just curious if we're if we're doing some kind of because, you know, we did the whole prequel redemption arc with with the Clone Wars cartoon or what do I what do I call it? The repair project.

[00:09:35] And now we're we're in the middle of the sequel trilogy repair project rehabilitation project. And I wonder if this is just one one last tick box that they want, one last box that they want to tick.

[00:09:50] For the prequel trilogy rehabilitation arc, because I know a lot of people did not like the fact that we got midichlorian Jesus as the origin of that character. I mean, I think what we're seeing is it ties into that.

[00:10:03] But it also, I think, is part of the rehabilitation project for the sequel trilogy arc in terms of generating life and things like that. Yeah, yeah.

[00:10:15] So in the Jedi's favor, though, in their defense, she points out that they just like to study virgins while we see the witches and the Sith using virgins. And she says about the witches that it's not unheard of to utilize the force in a darker way.

[00:10:33] But again, having noble intentions, it's not unheard of. There are, I think, probably one million people online who will disagree with me on that. But I don't know what to say. I've watched Star Wars. That made me laugh when I read it.

[00:10:46] Yeah, I can think of characters later who are definitely dark side users who do decent things. I'll even go in authorized timeline order.

[00:10:56] I can recall some situations in the books, I think, in the High Republic books where you see them go like, oh, but that's a dark side user. How do they heal? Right.

[00:11:08] Clearly there is something that allows a dark side user to heal and do perhaps things that would normally be attributed to the light side.

[00:11:17] I mean, I just I think the difference is that in the Sith would say this or a lot most dark side users, I think, would say this is that the Jedi restrict themselves to only one half of the color palette.

[00:11:29] And they're like, we're going to paint with the full palette. Right, right. Which fair enough. Yeah. So it's not that the dark side users restrict themselves from light side force usage. It's the other way around. It's at the light side users are like, no, we couldn't possibly.

[00:11:43] And they're like, well, then I guess you're not getting your dead kid back or whatever, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's not like they don't force push and pull, right? Like they do all the Jedi moves plus.

[00:11:54] So which is kind of really terrifying to be a Jedi and be like, OK, I have to fight with one hand tied behind my back and I have to be so good that I can fight someone with both. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you know what the secret is?

[00:12:08] What's the secret? I'm not left handed either. I watch I watch Princess Bride. Yes. That's in my head. It's such a good movie. Yeah, that's going to last the ages. Although, you know, sorry, just slide aside.

[00:12:21] A few years ago, Shelfie and I showed it to some younger friends of ours, and they all none of them appreciated it. They were all like, this is cheesy. Why are you guys so obsessed with this movie? That's the point.

[00:12:34] Yeah, I you know, this is my age now showing. I think I watched it for the first time on VHS. On a coach bus going on a field trip. Mm hmm. That's that's how I saw it for the first time.

[00:12:49] I honestly do not remember how I saw it for the first time. Probably even still have TVs on coach buses because I don't think I've been on one since high school.

[00:12:56] Um, yeah, I mean, I don't know if they show like community like movies or something anymore, because I would definitely normally just bring my own tablet. Right, exactly. But like when we were when we were kids, that wasn't a thing. Right? No.

[00:13:13] Yeah, there was definitely smartphones that started when I was in high school. Mm hmm. But it wasn't like everybody had one. They would still put on all these, you know, movies for everybody. Yeah, no, I remember. I mean, oh, I didn't have smartphones.

[00:13:26] I had cell phones started when I was in high school, but my mom, she got me one and she was like, here, this is for emergencies and stuff. So it's like, OK, put it in my pocket, turned it off and then got a very upset mom one day.

[00:13:37] Like, why didn't you? Why is your phone off? Like you said, it's for emergency. She's like, leave it on. That's really funny. Yeah, that's really funny. No, when I when I got one of those cell phones with a full keyboard, that that's what changed my life.

[00:13:54] I could text all the ladies that. All right. Go on. No, the ones that I'm talking about in this case are like the original Nokia bricks. OK, yeah, I have one of those two. That was that was my emergency phone. Now. All right.

[00:14:09] Shall we jump into the feedback? I'm not done yet. I had a razor next. I'm just going to go ahead. Go ahead. The razors were cool. Flip phones. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I can't come back. My mom has the Samsung one that folds in half. Is it good?

[00:14:22] Yeah, I mean, she likes it. So I should also say my mom used to work for Samsung. So she she always we all have some Samsung phones. Fair enough. All right. So let's start off with first.

[00:14:36] We had a E-Hope who wrote in or E-Hoop, I guess I should say, who wrote in with John. You called it some wild theories last time. So we got some theories after Episode six and then we got an updated theory just after this week.

[00:14:52] OK, so I'll read after Episode six and I'll leave the next one to you. So after Episode six, E-Hoop said, OK, I'm no longer convinced Vernestra is the stranger's boss. How about what we're seeing is actually a schism between dark side users. Vern and Darth Biceps are estranged.

[00:15:12] Vern is still a big bad, but she's using her position in the order to hunt her rivals. My OSHA idea becomes less convincing with each episode. Also, Star Wars wouldn't do that. Oh, also, yeah, responding to us saying that Star Wars wouldn't do the mother daughter sexual tension.

[00:15:30] It's two Game of Thrones. E-Hope says I'm less than 100 percent convinced and inserted a gif of a famous kiss between brothers and sisters. OK, all right. You know what George says?

[00:15:44] It's not a spotless record of not fishing in the family pond, but that's not George Lucas being an incest lover. He just is an inconsistent writer who didn't who probably didn't decide that that was his sister first. Yeah, yeah. And it is a rather chaste.

[00:16:01] You know, this is not like brother sister in a tower going at it like the first episode of Game of Thrones. Right. Nobody's getting pushed out of windows here. Right, right. Well, yeah, not for that reason, at least. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Things we do for love.

[00:16:16] Right. You want to read E-Hope's episode seven theories? I like to think E-Hope just like, I don't know, had a jog and an energy drink and then just slapped this on the keyboard.

[00:16:27] All right. So here's my new theory for Nestor and Coral are cult leaders who will cause a mass Jedi fall. Season two will essentially be following the exploits of fallen Jedi light whip gangs murdering marauding in the galaxy. More light whip now, E-Hope.

[00:16:44] I support your more light whip now movement. Yeah, that would be cool. I would love to see more of that. Yeah, I love the theories, E-Hope. Please keep them coming. They're delightful. I'm going to be picturing the marauding light whip gangs.

[00:17:02] And now I need to know, are they riding those? What are the vehicles that we saw in Boba Fett? I don't remember. I don't remember. I blocked up that show from my memory.

[00:17:13] People were complaining that there was a group of people who were riding on what do you call them? Vespas kind of basically. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Wasn't one of the Yellow Jackets people in that?

[00:17:27] Yes, I didn't dislike it as much as other people, but I need to know. That whole series was a mess. That's you know, I'm notably very positive on most of Star Wars and even I couldn't defend that season. I mean, for me, that was the weakest one.

[00:17:44] And of course, we should say to anyone who hasn't seen it yet that this was the COVID product. So there were strange things they had to do in the finale.

[00:17:53] Like in the finale, you see instead of having like everyone meet together, they all just have little face offs and groups of two because of COVID restrictions basically. So it makes it play out a little weird. And it's the Wheel of Time pile. Yeah.

[00:18:09] Yeah, I think I think Book of Boba Fett got hit even harder by the COVID stick. Yeah, seems like it. Yeah. All right. Well, we actually we have a voicemail. I asked Sebastian Zavala, who's a movie critic and writer editor blah blah blah in Peru.

[00:18:26] I asked him for his thoughts on this episode. Should we give it a listen? Yes. Okay, so the Echolite episode seven. I'm not a hater of the show, by the way. I've enjoyed quite a bit. I think like most people enjoyed episode five the most.

[00:18:41] It was pretty impactful and visually spectacular and all the fights were awesome. Episode six, I thought was dramatically very interesting. Like a like a small respite between all the action. Episode seven, on the other hand, I'm not so sure about it.

[00:18:57] There were things I liked, of course, all the small references to the lore and the prequels. The fact that they mentioned the word virgins was pretty amazing for a prequel fan or an episode one fan especially. The M-Count, of course, which is midichlorians.

[00:19:10] Apparently they're not willing to say the word midichlorians, but we know what an M-Count is. Say it, you cowards. And you know, the whole flashback thing. I think that in theory was pretty cool.

[00:19:23] I mean, I liked seeing Kalnaka in action, even though he was, you know, possessed or whatever. He was being controlled by the magic of the witches. But overall, I thought this flashback came a little bit late. It was too little too late, to be fair.

[00:19:41] I thought it should have been shown earlier, much earlier, to be honest. I think that if they showed it earlier, we would feel a little bit more for the characters, especially Sol and the other Jedi.

[00:19:56] And it felt a little bit repetitive considering we already had like one flashback to these events. Obviously not the whole event, obviously not the same perspective. But it did feel a little bit repetitive, which I didn't like, to be honest. I think the acting is really good.

[00:20:15] I think Master Sol continues to be a highlight. It's a tad disappointing that he's more or less the one to blame for everything that happened, which is interesting. I thought it was interesting too that Indara was pretty much, I mean not completely blameless,

[00:20:32] but she was a little bit less to blame, so to speak, for everything that happened. Kel'Nakai still is a disappointment to me as a character.

[00:20:42] I think that a Wookiee Jedi was so filled with potential that the fact that he wasn't very well handled by the show, it is disappointing. But I thought as always the lightsaber choreography was awesome. I think all the moves that involved the fights are pretty amazing.

[00:20:59] I think that they're dramatically potent and they look really nice, which is obviously much better than what happens in other Star Wars shows, which is amazing.

[00:21:08] But once again, I think that even though there's a lot of deep cuts and Leslie Headland and the rest of the scriptwriters clearly know their lore and know everything that happens in the prequel era especially and stuff like that,

[00:21:23] and they know how to use it and they know how to include all these easter eggs without them calling too much attention to themselves, I do think that once again this came a little too late.

[00:21:35] I mean I think for it to have been dramatically and emotionally potent it should have come earlier, you know. And it's really weird also the fact that it comes as the penultimate episode of the show or of the season.

[00:21:48] By this moment we should be going forwards, we shouldn't need this kind of obstacle like in the narrative. Going back once again in the penultimate episode does feel like an obstacle, it does feel like a stop instead of us going forwards.

[00:22:08] So I do think that they're gonna have to solve a lot of stuff in the final episode, especially in the present with Kimir and the rest. So I'm not sure how they're gonna be doing that, which is interesting because they could have used this, you know,

[00:22:25] the next to last episode to do that but they didn't because they did a flashback so we will see. So for me it's a mixed bag, I do think it's my least favorite episode of the show so far.

[00:22:37] I hope the last one doesn't end up replacing it, it wouldn't be ideal of course. I don't think it's horrible, I think the acting is really great, I think the lightsaber combat is amazing.

[00:22:47] I think there are some really good ideas definitely, I like the whole grey morality of the Jedi, the fact that they're presented not necessarily as the bad guys but as deeply flawed people

[00:23:00] and you know I think it's very consequent or coherent to the way they are presented in the prequels which is amazing. But I do think that this came definitely too late and it didn't feel as emotionally potent as it could have been.

[00:23:15] So yeah, that's my opinion, let's see what you think, what the rest of your listeners think or your guests. And yeah, thanks again for the invite. Alright so what do you think about the placement of this flashback episode?

[00:23:30] I thought it was good, I have seen this sentiment on our Discord too. And may I add, this is the kind of disagreement that I want to have on a show like this, not like we shouldn't have black women leading shows.

[00:23:43] So I appreciate that take and I think that's just going to be a preference thing. I think for me, the sin would be to bring this night into next season, to make me see another flashback next season. That would be too much for me.

[00:24:02] But I think you wrap that night up this season and then let me move on to the next mystery, I'm happy. I mean I wouldn't hate getting more perspective next season but I think yeah,

[00:24:15] the mystery element of it shouldn't necessarily hang but we can get it colored out more later in the future. I think that the placement of this episode was necessary because I think that if this had been earlier,

[00:24:28] because all of the stuff in the Chimera Reveal episode, would it have hit as hard if we were already thinking like oh well Saul you did something questionable. I think we need to settle into that comfort of seeing Saul as the good guy,

[00:24:53] as the best of the Jedi and things like that so that we get this kind of nasty surprise toward the end like this. And then yeah, I just think that the reveals of the episodes before this and the reveals in this episode

[00:25:06] would have undermined each other had it been shown in a different order. Okay, I'm with you on that. Again I do not really mind the placement of this episode. I think that you're right.

[00:25:20] I think that this was intentionally structured for a reason and I think it's worth it. Yeah, but Sebastian I really appreciate your thoughts and insights and also yeah, I know a lot of people as you said Jon are feeling the same way.

[00:25:33] Yeah and again this is the reasonable discourse guys. We've done it. We've defeated the fandom menace on this podcast. All right, shall we take turns with the rest of these? Sure. You gave me an easy one. I was going to take this. Oh I see.

[00:25:52] No, no, no, you go Rita Rueborn. I can be Marilyn. Hello, I'm Marilyn O'Apokila. No, go ahead Rita Rueborn. Small thing but I think May survives the bridge and Osha survives the prison ship crash because they probably unconsciously turn into the black smoke. Do you think?

[00:26:10] I like this a lot. When I saw this I was like oh that's good. That's good stuff. I hope so. We did see May involuntarily become some black smoke. Right, but that's my question is can they, I mean of course yeah, he's saying that they can't control it.

[00:26:26] But my question is then like can they even do it involuntarily or was that only happening to May because she had already forged the link with Anasea in terms of getting that spiral on her head? It's a good question.

[00:26:41] I don't think we necessarily need Osha to have survived in some magical way either. I know that we did have that. I just, I would be fine if they were just like ah she lucked out. Right, she landed the right way.

[00:26:54] Yeah, well I mean I think not even lucking out like she was smart about it. She was like okay I'm going down what am I going to do? She's like well all I can do is strap in.

[00:27:02] And we did see they showed when that ship came into the planet it didn't crash as much as Skidded so that definitely saved her. Yeah, yeah and what was the other thing? What was her job? Tech mech or something? Mech neck. Mech neck, I can't get you straight.

[00:27:20] The fact that she ran a high risk in space job probably had something to do with it too right? Right, yeah you saw her assess the situation. She's like I'm going down what's my best chance? Right, yeah. She knows what happens when you run out of oxygen. Yeah.

[00:27:37] Okay so Marilyn says hello Alicia and John. I'm afraid I have to object to the showrunners notions about attraction. Jackie was definitely one of my favorites and Chimere is definitely not. I have no time for the quote evil sexual domination as attraction trope.

[00:27:53] It's done too much harm over time. I can of course appreciate his physical attributes but at the end of the day he is a violent me first, screw you if you disagree with me whiny dude.

[00:28:04] His Chimere side is also part of him not just his supposedly sexy dark side Sithy persona. And he blames the Jedi for who he currently is. However badly the Jedi have behaved at the end of the day he's responsible for his own choices.

[00:28:20] I have compassion for his suffering and I loathe his choices. Nothing attractive there for me. He's a gaslighter. You know I gotta say Marilyn comes in going I'm not gonna let some podcaster named Alicia call me a motherfucker. That's right, Marilyn you are exonerated. I am not.

[00:28:39] No but I mean of course all of this is true. She continues he's a gaslighter, a manipulator and an abuser and he holds no attraction for me.

[00:28:47] That doesn't mean that he is not quote unquote redeemable but it would have to be a whale of a character arc given what they've given us so far. And I really don't think they have any intentions of redeeming him but I could be surprised.

[00:29:00] I think that they're yeah I don't think they're planning to redeem him and I kind of don't want him to. No I think it is the difference between explaining someone's you know explaining and redeeming how they are. Yeah there you go.

[00:29:13] Yeah I want the exploration we're not going to get this season his his full backstory or anything but I look forward to that. That's one of the things that will keep me hooked for next season.

[00:29:25] Right see that's that's the thing that's why I'm saying I want to let go of that night is that I want more of that right like I do want flashbacks to something. Not that I think this night is getting a little overplayed here you know right.

[00:29:37] Maybe play a different song on the album. Yeah maybe it'll be the meeting between him and me from different perspectives next season or something like that. Yeah 10 years into it. So introduces her to her her OSHA tree. She like cargo space on the tree.

[00:29:55] Like I call it Wilson I mean oh she. Marilyn says fun to be reminded of a shutter shutter. Message and I'll be nagged. Sorry I'm gonna say shot rock mess. Rock mess mesh. Ah you got it you got it. Miss Misha and I bet Nego.

[00:30:17] The thing is it's early for both of us now. Oh yeah. See I fooled you into doing an early podcast. If any if listeners don't know this is because I said why don't we just record at 3 a.m. my time.

[00:30:31] Yeah so it's 9 a.m. my time which is like a normal first thing in the morning time for me. I don't know how John does it. I just woke up at like 245 and I'm like you want to knock this out. All right.

[00:30:44] So she says it's fun to be reminded of these three who survived the fiery furnace in the Hebrew story. In your discussion of what Chimera's name might actually mean my first thought was some might call me Tim. Thanks Monty Python.

[00:30:57] This concept of distracting and confusing the Jedi with pain their own or others was exactly what a certain Sith Lord did to a certain hero to lure him into a face to face confrontation in the second ever Star Wars movie. Hope that's sufficiently non-spoilery. Perfect Marilyn.

[00:31:14] And finally I'm going to say I'm going to be doing a podcast. Perfect. And finally speaking of spoilers I entirely agree with John.

[00:31:22] While I often get lost in the confusion of new names and places and details that wash over me in the Star Wars canon timeline podcast it's your podcast and you can not spoil if you want to.

[00:31:32] And as a certain lore hounds co-host would say always to my delight anyone who doesn't like it can kick rocks. May the force be with you with them and with everyone. Yeah. OK. I was like I'm used to the David isms now. I'm like wait who said that.

[00:31:45] All the best. Was I cranky one day. No no David's the one who likes to say kick rocks. Fair enough. That is a very Gen Z coded sentence. We didn't kick rocks in the 90s. We only you know they kicked rocks in the 70s and 80s.

[00:32:00] Yeah we kicked cell phones that were dead. I don't know. We still play with sticks though for the record. Did you have hate clips. Can I ask you that. It's 3 a.m. so I can talk about anything. What does it have.

[00:32:15] Did you have hate clips as a kid or did you. Oh yeah. OK. So this is like the peak of American consumerism. Let's let's let's take a step back. Hit clips were designed for kids.

[00:32:27] They were essentially a tiny cassette player that had proprietary tiny cassettes that only played like the chorus of songs and they were hit clips. They cost a lot of money. They had 30 seconds of a song and they had a million ads on TV all the time.

[00:32:47] I do not remember this at all. Was there 2000s. This was I mean so I was in college in the early 2000s but still you would think I would see the commercials. There was a special little player for them.

[00:32:59] You had a special little player and then the hit clips themselves were designed to be on a key chain because they were they were like a.

[00:33:09] These tiny little like checks size cartridges that you put in and then there was a video now which was the music video version of this again 30 seconds. That's right about because I can see like the video now logo in my head. Yeah yeah. Anyway it's adventures in consumerism.

[00:33:31] When I think back on that I'm like no that's that's capitalism. Yeah at its core right because that is just you are getting a you're breathing an air of the product without actually getting it but paying more money for it. Right.

[00:33:48] I mean this also this is like plays into the NFTs of today or I remember before that in my time there was the Beanie Baby craze. You know we love to just invest value in something that we can collect. We just love it. Yeah yeah.

[00:34:03] Look I were raccoons. I'm not against collecting but let's not do it with hit clips. There's tick tocks on it you should you should look it up now people are just like was this a fever dream.

[00:34:16] This is yeah I mean this is like a whole new world to me is my Mandela affecting this. All right now now that I've derailed your entire pod. No yes. So my thoughts. No the people need to know about hit clips I needed to know about it.

[00:34:31] I hope somebody writes in about hip clips I hope I hope I've awakened I hope I've like awakened a dormant memory and someone that's someone has a drawer somewhere they're like oh. So Marilyn concludes this first part with P.S.

[00:34:45] Regarding Chimera's possible whale of a redemption arc I suppose he could always be the father of the twins or even the brother. What do you think. Yeah. I don't I just don't want it I want I want them to be related to this virgins.

[00:34:58] I think they yeah I think I don't think they have a father because I do think that they're thinking of like the birth of our midi-chlorian Jesus who notably.

[00:35:05] Well I mean as you pointed out at the beginning we still don't quite know what happened there so apparently we're getting I'm super excited for the explanation this week. Yeah.

[00:35:16] To find out what we find out do you want to take so Marilyn sent another email in last night responding to our first half of this episode podcast do you want to take that. Sure. Hello John. Oh hello.

[00:35:30] Hello John and Alicia good pod episode as always I found myself suddenly thinking in terms of soul as a social worker. I'm sure that you've heard cases both good and bad of social workers taking children away from homes because the homes are deemed to be dangerous.

[00:35:48] Of course so much depends on the values that one bases one's decisions on when the home is an unfamiliar culture with a seemingly strange practice which is a very common practice.

[00:36:00] And even when the home is a place where people are not allowed to have children and have children with seemingly strange practices it is difficult to make a judgment that honors the values of the home community in question.

[00:36:13] What is abusive to one culture may not be deemed so in another and yet I have to think that violence is violence whatever culture one is dealing with. Yeah. Right.

[00:36:24] Yeah we cannot be excusing violence based on culture at the same time I think this is why we want things like community policing right like is right bring people from the community to be the social workers and the police officers and whatnot of that community so that they have a better understanding of the norms and what's going on and they can read situations appropriately and not make bad assumptions.

[00:36:45] Right. Yeah. Right. Jedi we need a policeman.

[00:36:50] Yeah we needed Saul to talk to someone well I mean it's like I said you know we need him to knock on the door instead of scaling the mountain right like talk to people like hey what's what's going on in here you got a virgin.

[00:37:01] We're looking at you got some kids. What's the virgin's vibe.

[00:37:06] Social workers have codes and boards to it got to guide them and advise them but at the end of the day for the one making the decision it has to be a profoundly difficult one in many cases and you don't always have time to consult the board.

[00:37:19] A particular challenge are the situations in which the social worker is a member of a dominant culture they're dealing with a family who are more who are members of a subordinate culture much harm may be caused even with the best of intentions such good may also come.

[00:37:36] If there are any social workers among listeners I would love to hear your insights on this particular framework.

[00:37:43] This whole paragraph reminds me of the first nation issues in Canada right yes which actually I have to say so I responded to Marilyn's email and I said I especially liked the social worker point and she responded and she actually specifically brought up the first nations issues where she lives and yeah.

[00:38:03] About kidnapping for anyone who doesn't know about kidnapping children and taking them away from their families and forcing them to go to boarding schools where their language and cultural practices were forbidden and yeah this happened to my own great grandfather in Oklahoma.

[00:38:20] Yeah it's interesting she did specifically bring that up in her response. And if we're going to talk about something happening today the Uyghurs in China right now you know right similar situation. Yeah although they're doing that to adults too.

[00:38:32] They're luring adults back from Europe and then putting them in these internment camps but anyway. That's pretty crazy it's awful. All right everybody go Google the Uyghurs. Yeah it's not spelled how you think. Yeah U-I-G-H-U-R I think yeah.

[00:38:46] When I first learned about that I said to my wife I want you to guess how you spell Uyghur. And she's like wait why I said it starts with an O.

[00:38:57] Well it's also I mean because this is a Chinese word so we're just translating it into Roman letters you know. Right we're transliterating in a terrible way.

[00:39:06] Yeah anyway the point is speaking of frameworks Marilyn says it seems to me that George Lucas was borrowing freely but superficially from several without a complete understanding of the language. Of their meanings.

[00:39:23] Other than Zoroastrianism I know of no religion that claims there is a need for evil to exist free choice yes evil no. Unless one thinks of the Manichaean I might be saying that wrong but anyway splinter group who were declared heretical or non-canon if you like Christians.

[00:39:40] If you have a founder who preaches humility you can't blame them or their message if their followers don't follow that teaching even if they keep the name. In a discussion about how the witches were influencing Kalnaka I don't think that their mind control included body control.

[00:39:59] How could it when they were neither Wookie nor Jedi I think they were controlling motivation and emotion and that they died from the backlash of the release of their power by Indara.

[00:40:09] I'd also like to note that I don't think we know who killed Kalnaka yet do we or are we to assume that it was Chimere. And finally I wonder if May's survival depended in part on the presumed fact that her sisters are in fact the same being.

[00:40:26] If Osha survives so does May what do you think? Looking forward to the final episode of the season all the best Marilyn.

[00:40:33] First of all just about the mind control including body control I think so I always I know people are like stop talking about science with Star Wars but I can't help myself because Star Wars actually doesn't contradict science as much as people would think fires in space aside.

[00:40:50] But so in this case what I saw it as you know if you control someone's mind if control the you know neuro functioning in their brains then you are controlling their physical movements you're basically playing them like a puppet.

[00:41:04] Yeah I would agree with that I guess my question on the podcast was do they have access to his expertise to his training.

[00:41:11] Right and I think you're right in saying probably not I don't know that although we see like they could theoretically like we saw Anasea she knew things about Torben what he wanted his desires. So theoretically they have that they do have that same access with Kalnaka.

[00:41:29] I doubt his desire is to kill Torben unless Torben was really annoying for the last seven weeks. But also I think we don't really know how effective of a Jedi Kalnaka was in terms of lightsabers right like not every Jedi is going to be the best fighter.

[00:41:44] Right in terms of lightsabers perhaps he is really good at hand-to-hand combat and he is really good at you know we saw him really elegantly grab the blasters from people and then break them up maybe that's a strength with lightsaber fighting because of the lack of agility of Wookiees is not his strength.

[00:42:03] And that's okay maybe that's why the others are able to hold him off except Sol goes mano a mano which shocked me I was like you're going mano a mano with a Wookiee.

[00:42:16] Yeah well I mean I guess what was he gonna do and then thankfully Indara comes in at that moment. Yeah because it did take two and a half of them to take I'm sorry I'm calling Torben a half because he's on the ground at this point.

[00:42:29] One of my favorite. He impressively held him off. Yeah one of my favorite lines in all Star Wars I'd sooner kiss a Wookiee that can be arranged.

[00:42:39] Yeah so the Kalnaka comic is going to be set before all of this and that's coming out in September we'll see how quickly I can get my hands on it but when I yeah when I do get to read it I'll definitely do a little mini episode to just let people know what of interest you might take from it.

[00:42:59] There you go. And then also yeah so about the sisters being linked and if one survives both do I think there could be something there to that.

[00:43:12] Yeah I think that's right maybe as long as one remains alive the other can live so you have to kill them both at the same time which seems weird. Yeah.

[00:43:23] Okay so I actually I'm going to ask you to read the next one too because then this is the one that's triggering my lower dive.

[00:43:30] Okay all right let's do it Darth Kenshin writes in says hi all see I don't know if I could trust Darth Kenshin because they're you know can't trust a Sith. Hi all I really enjoy your coverage of the acolyte and just had one quick point.

[00:43:43] And then goes and compliments us yeah.

[00:43:44] Yeah thank you Darth Kenshin I think you're lying though you hate the coverage and just had one quick point and two quick questions regarding the force leaving someone after a while that was actually canon in a movie can't quite figure out your spoiler policy but you'll know what I mean.

[00:44:00] A character who went away from the force for a long time and tried to use it and did so successfully creating a force projection of himself but ended up dying the director of the film likened it to a drug user who kicks the habit then goes back.

[00:44:13] It puts such a strain on your body and you're not used to it anymore so it can be damaging even fatal.

[00:44:20] So it's not like OSHA can't access the force anymore but it's probably just too much of a strain on her body to be able to do it without any severe consequences. All right all right well you want to chat about that for a second.

[00:44:30] I mean yeah I'll go with that like I think we also see you know other characters who willingly step away from the force stop using it and then it's not that they put themselves in danger by reaccessing it per se but it's just it's hard you know it's like when you like any skill you stop exercising it and you get a bit rusty and then in their case it might take some effort to even connect to the force at all again which is what we see.

[00:45:01] Right. Darth Kenshin continues saying my question is about the Jedi code of no attachments. First off what's the actual depth of that when we see Jedi die on screen in film or on TV their Padawan or master always has an emotional response.

[00:45:21] Is that against the Jedi code where do they draw the line. I mean humans are hypocrites in general. Yeah I mean yeah we love cognitive dissonance we're always like you're being cognitively dissonant and like that's what like half of our society is built on. Right.

[00:45:37] I mean yeah we love cognitive dissonance we're always like you're being cognitively dissonant and like that's what like half of our society is built on. Right.

[00:45:46] I've noticed several times on your coverage that there are similarities to modern religions being inflexible and alienating people like the Jedi do with their harsh rules.

[00:45:56] However in the case of modern religions those beliefs are typically based on an ancient text believed to be the word of a supreme being.

[00:46:03] So whether or not you agree with it I would argue the inflexible nature makes sense to adherence of the religion and is justified by being the word of God. Do the Jedi believe in a singular deity who set these rules or are they all purely man-made. Thanks again.

[00:46:19] You know that's interesting because I've done quite a bit of reading on several religions. I don't think that's a universal belief that scripture is you know the literal word of God and I don't think that it's a universal belief that it has to be inflexible.

[00:46:37] I think that many religions, many more modernized religions believe that the rules can evolve with society. You know we can have a better understanding of how to interpret those writings that were by humans.

[00:46:52] Humans perhaps you know some people will say they different religions believe in divine inspiration of the text rather than you know divine words. Right. And so I don't want to lump all religions together. That's my one thing I want to clarify.

[00:47:09] I'm not saying let's all get our pitchforks and go for people who are practicing religions. No, no, no, no of course not. Yeah and of course if the Jedi it's not a monotheistic religion I would say. George Lucas does call it a religion.

[00:47:27] If they have any gods I would say they are I mean the God is basically the force itself. So no the force is not transcribing information you could say maybe the Celestials the father, daughter and son maybe they are their gods in a certain way.

[00:47:44] But the Jedi Code itself is it was written by humans we think so basically it's a set of rules that evolved through the centuries.

[00:47:53] And maybe we'll see its creation in the Jedi Prime movie that's being planned for 25,000 years before this point in the timeline which is about the founding of the Jedi the dawn of the Jedi.

[00:48:07] There is a I have to bring up there's a canon sourcebook for a role playing game called Forces of Destiny and this sourcebook is called Nexus of Power.

[00:48:20] And it says that the modern code was revised so not originally created but the version that we hear about was revised by a Jedi Master named Odon-Ur and that does come from from legends. But this is what brought it into canon.

[00:48:36] Odon-Ur by the way is a Drathos who I encourage you to look up his species D-R-A-E-T-H-O-S and he was a Jedi but they are a scary looking species. They kind of look like their heads look like horses skulls with just like protruding mouth with just teeth on top.

[00:48:56] But anyway so he was basically and he wasn't doing this alone he was working with others revising this code so like they were kind of not so much transcribing from God but then like I call it maybe the Moses of Star Wars.

[00:49:11] But it's not yeah it's not like he's taking it down from God he's looking at what's there and is like how do we turn this into what become the sacred Jedi text.

[00:49:19] So Odon-Ur he did live more than like he lived for more than a thousand years between about like 4000 and 5000 BBY so long before this.

[00:49:33] And then we see those sacred Jedi texts they get added to over the centuries and they're passed down and they do turn up in the sequel trilogy. But the interesting thing about this Nexus of Power book that I cited is that it's also especially about virgins.

[00:49:49] It's one of the best sources of information on virgins virgins in canon. Animism. That's where I'm going with with this. The more I think about this the more I think about what you're describing and how the Jedi described the force and whatnot.

[00:50:06] Yeah I think that the closest analog and animism isn't really like a religion is more of like a it's more of like a type of belief right.

[00:50:17] I think you know the force animates everything you know it's throughout everything I'm like I think that's kind of animism as far as a belief system. Yeah yeah well I guess it's true.

[00:50:28] I mean I guess I was thinking like we're talking about what our Jedi gods in some ways it's the middle. And so a lot of Star Wars fans would hate that so disregard if you do. Oh gosh.

[00:50:39] I also want to say so I when I I cited the Jedi code a few episodes ago but I actually was specifically reciting one part of it which is called the mantra of the Jedi code.

[00:50:50] So the mantra again was the one that I cited was there is no emotion there is peace there is no ignorance there is knowledge there is no passion there is serenity there is no chaos there is harmony there is no death there is the force.

[00:51:05] And this version of it it does come from legends and it was brought into canon by my favorite Star Wars novel featuring a certain Nightsister.

[00:51:14] But what's interesting is that released so I think that was released in like 2016 and that same year they released a canon comic set around the same time.

[00:51:27] So canons a character a Jedi character will show up later set around the same time and but the canon comic has a different version of this which I think kind of contradicts it.

[00:51:36] So the canon version of it is emotion yet peace ignorance yet knowledge passion yet serenity chaos yet harmony death yet the force.

[00:51:48] So like that version to me is saying that there the other one is saying you know you must suppress the dark side so that you know you can be this good Jedi monk which we've been talking about being dangerous and this other version seems like what we allow your targeting serenity and peace.

[00:52:06] But we acknowledge passion and emotion as well more passion more energy something as you're reciting that I'm thinking of is the Jedi are really good at being in denial. Yeah yeah like I think that the fatal flaw with Jedi ideology is that the Jedi.

[00:52:26] They rather than embrace and guide human emotion and human the human experience they kind of deny it. Yeah no attachment not help right that's right there is no death not we become one with the force and that's part of death.

[00:52:45] Well they do say that they do like Jackie said that in this show she says lovely to watch someone become part of the force and then she becomes part of the force. I don't believe her I don't believe her well then she became part of the force.

[00:52:58] So what is specifically said about attachment in the Jedi code is that you can't marry but romantic and familiar love is not expressly forbidden.

[00:53:08] Obi-Wan an important Jedi character says this at one point but giving into attachment is basically considered giving up being a Jedi so compassion is deeply encouraged though and we know that.

[00:53:20] George Lucas he is a practicing Buddhist and he he he based a lot of these concepts on Buddhism. So in Buddhism you have the four noble truths are kind of a central tenet of Buddhism so basically to paraphrase the four noble truths one suffering is pervasive and inescapable.

[00:53:42] Two we cause suffering by clinging to people to things to concepts about ourselves three suffering can end nirvana as possible for the path there is wisdom spiritual practice and living ethically otherwise the eightfold path. So does that sound like the Jedi dogma doctrine to you.

[00:54:05] Yeah I mean it's it's somewhere in there.

[00:54:09] I think it's it I think that they're to accept death as a natural part of life is a different thing than there is no death right and and I think that's where I get into issues with the Jedi like I think that the Buddhist teachings are more about accepting what you cannot change and the Jedi is teaching teachings are no we're going to reject something so we cannot change.

[00:54:35] So I have to say I got into the Buddhist philosophy at some point in my adult life because it actually I have an anxiety disorder and it really helped me with it because it just the concept of not clinging to things you know.

[00:54:48] Just kind of letting it's things nothing lasts forever you never you're not going to keep that pair of earrings forever you're going to lose it you know you're not every friendship is going to last forever things like that and just being able to say okay am I just causing myself more harm by clinging to whatever it is that's giving me anxiety at the moment.

[00:55:14] Yeah and and I think that this idea of you know letting go of attachments in in in a more healthy way is something that you see across religions to I mean the Moose our movement of Judaism I forgot which movement of Christianity is very similar in in tenants to Buddhism.

[00:55:38] I want to say Franciscan but I could be wrong but but my point is I think this is something that like people around the world have yearned for.

[00:55:46] Right the ability to let go and and Buddhism is most known I think because Buddhism as a as a macro religion and I know it's debate is Buddhism a religion would Buddhist consider themselves part of a religion or if it you know anyway.

[00:56:02] Explain to me that there is a religion there's a philosophical element and then there are people who have like a real religious practice of it yeah although the thing that because they would consider it a religion in you know what those who practice it in a religious way consider it their religion.

[00:56:18] Yeah but also that begs the question do you need a deity to have a religion anyway anyway I'm not going to get into theology tonight but my whole point is.

[00:56:27] I think that this is something but anyway no I'm saying if you don't consider it your religion do you need it do you need a deity to consider it a religion yeah anyway anyway my point is.

[00:56:40] Because there's a debate whether the Buddha was holy or not you know a god or not or just in Latin person anyway within within Buddhism anyway I'm again I you're pulling me into this the theological discussion that I would love to have.

[00:56:53] I think that's super fascinating but this is not that show right but my point is my point is I do think that the reason that the Jedi code resonates with people when they watch Star Wars is because it feels like that yearning that people have in the real world that manifests in all these different ways and I like that I think that's good writing I just think that the Jedi take it one step too far.

[00:57:18] Yeah well I would counter to what you said before that Star Wars is always an opportunity to talk about Buddhism because George Lucas wants it that way but I know I did pull out some some quotes and examples from Star Wars history about this idea of attachment to give us a better idea of how different because it does definitely we do see the different characters you know they take their own interpretations of it.

[00:57:43] Right so during the high republic era so set like about 100 years before this and actually there's a book The Rising Storm is actually set right after the great hyperspace disaster we talked about this week. I'm reading it right now actually.

[00:57:58] Okay great yeah so I don't know if you got to this part but Jedi Indira Stokes says love experiencing and embracing joy affection and even grief is part of the light side however a Jedi couldn't be a slave of those emotions.

[00:58:13] See I like that that's that's a lot more reasonable than what you just read.

[00:58:21] Well I mean but there is like other people different people interpreted differently so in Master and Apprentice which is a book that's set at the beginning of the fourth era which is especially about Qui-Gon Jinn.

[00:58:31] Somebody another Jedi says to Qui-Gon casual sex is not forbidden it's basically like no like it's it's okay that I'm sleeping with so and so because you know it's casual it's not like I'm not breaking my attachment. Oh my god. We're literally gonna do no strings attached.

[00:58:52] Well Qui-Gon is like no that's not how it works.

[00:58:57] It's just funny like I think of like that wave of early 2000s rom-coms about like oh my god we can finally talk about one night stands in Hollywood and it just feels like what what Qui-Gon's looking at he's like no. Yeah.

[00:59:12] But then you have another Jedi given the permission to to have sex and to basically have a family because of the threat of extinction to his species right. So it is all subjective. Yeah yeah it is Yoda.

[00:59:27] Yeah and we have a another very prominent character says in the prequel trilogy so someone his love interest asks him are you allowed to love I thought that was forbidden for a Jedi what does he say? Attachment is forbidden wait I have to put on my best voice.

[00:59:45] Attachment is forbidden possession is forbidden compassion which I would define as unconditional love is central to a Jedi's life so you might say that we are encouraged to love. That is definitely someone looking for a loophole but.

[01:00:02] Dude was trying so hard to get into those chambers those royal chambers. Yeah.

[01:00:11] I think that Wookieepedia has a nice summary on this they here's one paragraph from there they say attachment was the inability to accept change as a fundamental characteristic of life to accept death as a natural part of life the inability to let go.

[01:00:27] Feeding into fear of loss and greed leading to jealousy attachment was selfish a shadow of greed and thus a path of the dark side of the force.

[01:00:36] Therefore attachment was forbidden for a Jedi who had to train themselves to let go of everything they were afraid to lose to renounce all attachments.

[01:00:43] Thus they could be compassionate and loving and caring but not be possessive and grabbing and holding on to things trying to keep them frozen in time accepting the transitional nature of life this allowed them to love the totality of life unconditionally without selectively choosing individual life forms to become selfishly attached to.

[01:01:06] This sounds like a lot of. Lot of explaining away.

[01:01:13] My counter is that yeah it's hard not to form a parent child relationship or a sibling relationship given the structure of the master Padawan relationship in the Jedi Order so you know we see our favorite Jedi failing this particular attachment test over and over again and so it's part of that proud tradition now.

[01:01:34] And and we kind of glaze over before but Maryland brought up attachment and more brought up attraction right attraction in relation to like dominance and to me. I don't think that the show is saying that dominance is attraction I think I think. Chimera is pulling on.

[01:01:56] Lust which is different from love right and here is trying to play with lust whereas the Jedi are okay with love even though they have concerns about attachment and right again we've we've talked now add ad nauseum about how it's all kind of messed up like it all it just doesn't make sense their whole idea of what attachment is does not make sense in practice and every single generation.

[01:02:21] There are Jedi who struggle with this and kind of disprove that it's a real thing.

[01:02:27] I mean yeah for me it comes back to I am notoriously religious skeptic and it comes this for me is always the issue with religions for me is that you know there there are these absolute rules and a lot of cases that just.

[01:02:43] If you're not flexible about them they just don't make sense a lot of the time to me like which is weird sometimes the Jedi are like that right like sometimes I are flexible the way finders right now we finders of pathfinders are what they're called the ones who are on their own.

[01:02:58] Right the other way for the way finders yes I wait for the people who help navigate yes we.

[01:03:04] You know get it together Lucasfilm books but my point is like sometimes they are really flexible and then other times they're just completely rigid and it does not make sense to me.

[01:03:13] Yeah I mean but I think that that is just how institutions are and how people are and that is exactly what they've been exploring. Show me take a quick break and then come back and dive into the rest of the feedback.

[01:03:28] Yeah right okay and we're back so diving back in wondering not lost says just watched that was the best episode of star wars i think i've seen my ten year old disagreed and said it was good but not that good he said a circus storyline and clone wars is better.

[01:04:06] You both have stellar taste. That's all I'll say yeah yeah that's a great one look forward to a soca.

[01:04:15] Are you going to do David Mack Davy Mack I love Davy Mack great guy all around good guy Davy Mack I love how this episode really complicates all parties involved I have no problem believing Torben would be as torn up as he is and even kill himself all these years later.

[01:04:33] Dude was bored and wanted to go back to Coruscant and that led him let that led to him acting rash and running back to the coven which resulted in the entire coven dying plus who knows what kind of residual effects on a say as being in his mind left on him.

[01:04:48] No I don't know who's a monkey.

[01:05:01] Right in David Mack yeah let us know David Mack by the way lives in Japan so right right but no one comes out of this clean I guess kal Naka did the least amount of harm and the harm he did do was not of his own volition though maybe he felt guilty about a whole bunch of people being killed in order for him to live.

[01:05:22] I also loved the start of this episode and having the Jedi just doing a mundane surveying mission.

[01:05:30] Yeah yeah I agree I loved that I did like that that they were just like yeah what did the Jedi do when they're not you know fighting in battles or whatever saving the galaxy they're just out surveying like oh let's let's document this force virgins thing.

[01:05:46] Right yeah and what's really sad about Torben especially is that Torben wanted to go back to Coruscant for his relationships right to be around people he knew and not isolated anymore.

[01:06:01] Yeah and because of his actions he ends up in a barrage vow and completely isolated from other humans or not other humanoids I should say this world.

[01:06:13] Yeah yeah I mean but he isolated but then like I said before he picks like a heavily populated place like I would rather do it kal Naka style like let's just go live in the woods make some mystery stew and like study animals or whatever.

[01:06:29] We record the podcast from the woods now. Yes if I could.

[01:06:35] Okay Rocky's in says I liked my mother on a say her power seems pretty cool she wanted to let OSHA choose and that is a good thing to do the Jedi definitely are being exposed for their morals and ways of the order that are not so righteous interesting how Saul was so determined to have OSHA as a Padawan.

[01:06:54] Talman Talman being Torben was so set to on going back to Coruscant and was manipulated in a way I think yeah definitely not so much by Anasea but from his perspective on things. I agree.

[01:07:08] Just weird that soul was drawn to OSHA so much was it the force of their that world or their virgins that was driving soul that way also makes sense as to why the four Jedi would be conflicted with their emotions about what happened trying to move on covering up a lie that killed so many people.

[01:07:25] I don't think in dear and are meant to kill the witches she was trying to save kalnocker and the rest was the deaths of those which is.

[01:07:33] And the result was the deaths of those which is that fight was great though with kalnocker seeing a wookiee Jedi fight was awesome maybe we can get buryaga on a live action show or movie with him fighting so buryaga is a wookiee Jedi character from the hyper public books.

[01:07:50] That would be terrifying a wookiee who can already rip your arms off with force powers a Sith wookiee would be even scarier. Yeah.

[01:08:00] Yeah I said I said there's there's a wookiee who shows up later in the timeline called chrysanthemum and he's really intimidating he's not for sensitive but I would love to see a Sith version like him you know.

[01:08:13] Yeah yeah it's a we don't get enough variety in this I mean one thing I'll say has let me down a little bit on okay is that they said it was from a perspective and I don't know if we've gotten that fully I don't know if it lived up to that promise.

[01:08:32] Okay yeah I know that that's something that Bob has been saying so did I Jedi Bob has been doing also weekly breakdowns on his YouTube channel and that's the one thing he said is that he hoped for more dark side perspective in this show. Yeah. But it's not.

[01:08:50] Yeah I don't have a problem with that I'm going to see what happens in the finale. Okay. Yeah fair enough. Now take sub zero.

[01:09:00] Sub zero writes in and says I really love this episode it filled in a lot of the gaps I heard slash read some say that they would have preferred episodes three slash seven back to back but I kind of like the placement but let's not have any more apps without Chimera he was missed agree.

[01:09:22] I don't think any of the four Jedi were evil by any means I think on balance they were still more on the good side to varying degrees history is littered with people who thought they were doing the right thing but end up causing great harm intent only takes you so far consequences are what truly matters soul was definitely flirting with the dark side he seems barely in control of his emotions and the creeper vibe was a hundred percent intentional even down to the way he was skulking around.

[01:09:50] And going down on those on those new look like I'm there's nothing suspicious about that. Yeah I respect someone with a good appetite.

[01:09:58] I know I just I just think it's funny because I think you're right I think you said this it's late it's like a college vibe right yeah I'm at the dining hall this is an all you can do my leg buffet.

[01:10:09] He's like I got Wookiee cooking for me.

[01:10:11] Yeah my meal pass is yeah all right great physical acting by LJJ soul wanted slash needed a Padawan so bad it was cluttering his judgment I couldn't believe it when he lit his saber after telling Torben to exercise restraint and just straight up murdered mother on a saying he was the most guilty of the bunch.

[01:10:30] I mean I see why he at the moment it was like a panic reaction you know yeah like delicious I'm gonna kill her it was just like what's going on stab and then we'll fear the past the dark side anyway yeah I was wrong about Indira I thought she would have been the one who tried to rip the kids away but she wanted nothing to do with it she was in damage control mode the entire episode that move she made on kill knock up a street out of the matrix so dope her telepathy powers were so strong that it broke the bond held by the king.

[01:11:01] Yeah.

[01:11:02] So that proves Vernestra that moves Vernestra up the board in terms of who might become his master and also mother coral who was Mia at the end although I never got the vibe that coral was strong enough or devious enough to be a set master she seemed like more of a linear a to b kind of gal.

[01:11:23] Then I'm sorry yeah you are respond to that for.

[01:11:25] Yeah so I so it sounds like we're not going to find out what happened with coral this season that's going to be a season two thing and I'm wondering if we're not going to maybe we should like temper our expectations about finding out who Chimera's master is in the finale because keep again Chimera wasn't as supposed to be as prominent this season until you know the undeniable power of many just until on screen.

[01:11:52] Basically yeah yeah I think yeah I mean I'm fine with you know we all just want like somebody to show up and be like hey I'm ten of bris I think we should not expect that in the finale this season.

[01:12:05] Yeah and then some silly commentaries from subzero John Lore hound is going to have to revise his song to may did start the fire although I have questions about how small a fire like that could make a whole complex blow up whatever was in that lamp was arson grade accelerant.

[01:12:23] Yeah this is why I want another revisit because I want like more clarity on that.

[01:12:29] Maybe a couple of things there's a lot to do next week to land this plane I really hope Leslie and co know what they're doing this obsession with six or eight episodes is baffling to me I completely agree you know what we were at twenty two I've recently been like revisiting old shows.

[01:12:45] Yeah twenty two episodes twenty two is too much I agree with that I twenty two is too much twelve is good twelve is good ten is good eight is too few I don't know why we went to eight.

[01:12:58] It's a budgeting thing basically they're like okay well because this was a super expensive series I think it costs like a hundred and eighty million to produce and that wouldn't include that marketing costs and all that.

[01:13:10] So yeah it's very expensive and they're basically like okay you can that divide that up into eight short episodes it's that's where it comes from it's not like I don't think it's it's definitely not that Leslie headlands like I don't have more story to tell or I you know want the episodes to be short and few.

[01:13:27] It's just the reality of production and this is a theory this is how now studios plan and budget their shows. Yeah yeah but we get better we get better like special effects now we get more on site location and yeah yeah yeah everyone's got an answer don't they.

[01:13:51] So Abby says I'm going to say something deeply unpopular as I know people like him for some reason my soul spissions were correct but even I didn't think that it's that it was him all along the main culprit the very bad juju all the creeping around.

[01:14:07] So he is so set on wanting a pat on that immediately assumes the worst of this family just to justify himself in his actions not listening to the voice of reason of Indira seems she is only culpable of the hushing up parts and maybe the losing control of her colleagues part.

[01:14:23] It would be him in need of feeling a lot of guilt not Torben who got roped into get going along and basically just tried to stay alive after soul just shot first without asking any questions without understanding anything only jumping to conclusions.

[01:14:37] Mother coral was another who was all too ready to go on the offense and who manipulated may to do so too but wasn't that just their way to protect the coven.

[01:14:47] Miss guided sure and we saw the consequences yet it all goes back to creepy uncle soul they should have ended up they should have ended each other and maybe everyone else would have been okay damn.

[01:14:59] Isn't it just good writing though the tragedy of it all kind of everyone is to blame in one way or another they are all reacting according to their personalities and beliefs.

[01:15:09] Yeah yeah yeah I think I think mother I don't say I could have communicated better however I think that soul probably is the main the main culprit I think that's probably right.

[01:15:27] I mean I think that that's what this episode is communicating but it doesn't mean that like he's a bad person for it he just was he you know obviously he wanted a padawan and for some reason you know he just he saw ocean he's like this little girl she needs me to rescue her everything else came secondary to the story he created in his own head the second.

[01:15:50] And saw coral yelling at her I wonder if he created that in his own head or did someone put it there.

[01:15:58] Yeah I mean so we saw him looking in on he saw the interaction by the bunta tree with OSHA and may and he saw OSHA say to me to like basically not torture the jelly fly even though she had done a second before he didn't see that part so I wonder if that's the moment where he was like okay this one who said be nice to the jelly fly she's my.

[01:16:22] She's my new daughter. May didn't start the fire. At least not on purpose. Yeah.

[01:16:31] John member of the pod I almost have friend of the pod but member of the pod says no matter how powerful they were like eight years old when may called out for her mama after the fire was completely out of control that hit me children as pawns in the games of adults when OSHA called out for her mom mama that hit me soul is to blame Torben got a little bit too far.

[01:16:54] I got violated and he was still a padawan so I understood his actions but soul soul was just oh so nasty was that a good rendition of. Or is it wookiee is it is. I still can't do the wookiee thing well. The whole.

[01:17:16] Oh yeah that wasn't that wasn't a good book I'm gonna I'm gonna go back.

[01:17:19] All right that's a little better the whole they might be in danger like dude who are you to make such declarations who are you to decide that soul who gave you the right to question things like you have no understanding of soul so do we all now still believe that in Dara was really killed by may listening to the pod I and I remain staunchly in favor of a rendition of may didn't start the fire.

[01:17:46] I think that's what I'm gonna go with I still want didn't because I don't think she started the fire right.

[01:17:53] Made in start the fire I'm just gonna say the fire because it's not gonna flow off the tongue roll off the tongue a little bit can I just also say I think part of the reason that and look soul had confirmation bias from the beginning but there were some concerning things that may said when they were interviewing her for you know the Jedi and.

[01:18:16] And that was largely because she's a kid and she sometimes kids have trouble understanding nuance and statements right like and and she kind of oh you sacrifice yourself. Right right you have to sacrifice a part of yourself yeah.

[01:18:32] Right right and and that's I could see a Jedi saying something like that right like sacrifice part of yourself to the Jedi order but this is this is just a case of he hears something he's like oh I see a giant pit and I see a girl saying she's gonna sacrifice herself.

[01:18:48] Right she might be in danger I don't think that's a completely unreasonable conclusion to come to I don't think the reaction should be climb a fucking wall.

[01:18:57] I'm mounting and break in yeah yeah I think he like you said Alicia's he should have knocked on the door and been like all right look she says she wants to sacrifice herself for peace of mind can we just observe the ceremony to make sure you're not gonna have to like kill these kids.

[01:19:11] Right or even just yeah before that before they broke in in the first place just be like hey so we're just like around here doing some work can we come in and talk to you can we talk to you about our savior the midi-chlorians. Right it's a problem.

[01:19:26] So yeah Maryland also this is not in response to John specifically but Maryland said on the on the discord and I thought that this is a good one how about no one is to blame though everyone is responsible. Everyone started the fire. Everyone started the fire.

[01:19:47] Roll off the tongue either yeah we're gonna have to go with me. Alright so a paradise says I'm not ready to just check soul in the rest of the Jedi into terrible awful people pot.

[01:19:59] And I think people would do well to remember this show is trying to show the gray of it all so sold did think the children were in danger and perhaps rightfully so we still don't know what exactly was going to happen.

[01:20:13] The actual Jedi Council said now leave them alone before finding out about the quote unquote twins origin if it wasn't for realizing they are part of or possibly origin of the virgins and Torben rushing off to the coven.

[01:20:27] Soul may have been reigned in he didn't look ready to rush into it until he was told to chase after Torben I do wonder if he's gone with Calnaca instead of I do wonder if he had gone with Calnaca instead of instead how things would have turned out.

[01:20:41] I'm just pausing there for a second I know so we did get clarity and I think that this was properly conveyed to that they are not the origin of the virgins the origin of the virgins is like whatever that hole is that the witches are praying. Right right.

[01:20:57] Yeah but they're definitely they were their creation was definitely enhanced by the power of that virgins. Yeah. Yeah I agree that with it. Torben it's all wouldn't assault already cross some lines but the final lines that were crossed for.

[01:21:16] They were started by Torben rushing off to be like oh i can solve the problem right now and go home but i also think that mother on a say she kind of.

[01:21:25] What she did to Torben by possessing him before that and like playing on his desires his homesickness she kind of set that up by accident. Yeah she did help goad the situation to existence.

[01:21:39] Yeah so parody says don't think the final confrontation happens if soul didn't have to chase down Torben Torben also ignited his saber first if I recall correctly to be honest couldn't tell 100% what happened between soul and mother on a say he seemed confused himself with how he killed her once she turned into the smoke monster still left with a lot of questions and not a lot of solid answers.

[01:22:00] Yeah. Yeah I hope more I hope more answers are coming not your flashback. Well I could I could get look bring all the flashbacks you can you can have flashback to like flashback to the pregnancy in the middle of the year.

[01:22:15] So yeah you can have one more flashback of that night though you're permitted one more. A lot of you can have as many as you need to tell the story you want to tell.

[01:22:24] No no I don't think so I don't think so I think I write the show now.

[01:22:27] Do you want to do moisture farmer says mind transference creating life using the force of virgins all things that track very closely with Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious or at least their interest in it maybe the Sith become entangled because they're also studying virgins find out about the coven and what they can do and pursue it themselves.

[01:22:50] D plague. Funny Darth Plagueis friends call him. Yeah yeah. Hey deep like he figures out midi-chlorian manipulation Sid figures out Sid figures out. Okay we have to edit some of this. You bleep you bleep that right out.

[01:23:20] So basically we're talking about the line of Sith that continues from here if so we've already talked about Plagueis might be a Sith that's Plagueis is a Sith that emerges in exactly this era an important one and then takes on later Darth Sidious who is the main Sith of the next era.

[01:23:40] And then yeah we've talked about the fact that there are there's a force die add storyline right. I think the Jedi just as Torben said thought they were doing the right thing.

[01:23:52] I can see the hater Internet going on all week about the Jedi being evil and solving her horrible blah blah blah. I think they all seem to be doing what they thought was right at the time.

[01:24:02] So was a little too emotional for a Jedi especially a fully trained one. Wikipedia says that a virgin's in the force can sometimes warp for sensitive people's connections to the force and their abilities.

[01:24:14] So I wonder if that's an ingredient in this bowl of fubar stool stew school stew.

[01:24:22] Also I thought it was kind of ironic that Torben wanted to go home because he was so bored and then ended up taking the barash vow in silent meditation for 10 plus years or whatever it was. Yeah that's exactly what I said before. That's maturity I guess.

[01:24:36] And then you tell yourself no that's not maturity. Open questions for finale. How did May survive the fall. What happened to Mother Coral. When how and why does Chimera become involved. Vernestra. How does she know. When did she find out.

[01:24:54] Sorry what does she know when did she find out was she keeping helping keep it from the council. Is she secret Sith etc. How were the twins created. Why are they one consciousness in two bodies. How does that work. Which coven more info please. Why were they exiled.

[01:25:10] What is their name. Where are they from etc etc etc. What is unknown planet and why keep the name a secret from viewers. Well I can already tell you that we're not going to get the answers to some of these questions.

[01:25:26] We are definitely we are promised the answers to how the twins were created. And what is the nature of their creation. We already know yes it's one consciousness in two bodies. They clarified that this episode how that works and how they are created.

[01:25:37] That's been promised in the finale. I hope there's more information about the witch coven would be great to see how May survive the fall.

[01:25:45] But some of this is definitely waiting for next season like I don't think we're going to find out what happened to Mother Coral until next season. I don't know if we're going to see more of the twins.

[01:25:55] I don't know if we're going to see May and Chimera meet this season that might be one for next season.

[01:26:03] So I mean yeah just we have to keep in mind that they have a particular mystery that they're setting up for this season which is pretty much what happened that night and like who are these twins what is the nature of these twins.

[01:26:17] And then I think stuff like who Chimera's master is like I said I think that that's going to be a season two thing. Fair enough. Fair enough. And that's just off the top of my head.

[01:26:28] I don't think they can answer all those in a single finale episode and if they answer only one which ones are most pressing. I'm concerned there's going to be too much unresolved. Headland has said she doesn't like to keep big mysteries hanging between seasons.

[01:26:40] I'm less optimistic this week than last that they'll be able to wrap this up in a satisfactory way. I really hope they do. I like the show and I want non Skywalker saga content to continue getting made.

[01:26:51] I want a strong series plus I want to know exactly how old Monday is to this to the day. Otherwise I'm going to write it. Yeah I mean we don't even exactly know how old Vanessa is.

[01:27:04] I guess we do actually know we do know that because we know when she was born. Yeah I mean Keanu. Yeah let's let's see how long does Syrians live. Tell us next season but it's fair enough. Fair enough.

[01:27:18] All right. So we the rest of it is about spoiler gates. So I hope that this is a discussion that people are finding interesting.

[01:27:27] I'm finding it an interesting discussion because you know it's just a good reminder that you know there's a diversity of opinions in this audience even though we're all here because we want to know more about Star Wars and explore this.

[01:27:40] Yeah we see that there's a variety of perspectives and experiences so yeah I find this very interesting. So OK. The first is from. So this was on Twitter from a tech funk dub and tech funk dub says just my two cents.

[01:27:57] I do feel the spoiler rules on acolytes are a bit draconian. However as you seem to love just about every IP I do and you do such a good coverage when you get into the lore I am not at all concerned and won't stop listening.

[01:28:09] OK well thank you for that feedback and for the compliments. I like that it almost went to only a Sith deals in absolute but it really really got into some more nuance there. So thank you. Oh it's my turn. Yeah Hubert. Firstly I feel horrible.

[01:28:26] I left a three star review out of spoiler free frustration. I do however appreciate you addressing my feedback and you're absolutely right. You cover acolyte the same way as hot D.

[01:28:36] But when John mentions things and then gets bleeped I feel like I am OSHA and Master Soul is never going to tell me what's going on. Anyhow I get the format and I appreciate the work that you put into coverage.

[01:28:48] Yeah so I said that I would I wrote back and said that I would reveal the bleeps as much as I can that I could think of. And so I'm thinking I can remember for I don't know if you have any to add to this pile.

[01:29:00] The first one was one of our was maybe the very first episode and the bleep was I don't even remember what it was about. I remember at the time thinking like this is not such a important thing.

[01:29:10] Like it's not such a huge spoiler but it was funny to do the bleep just to kind of introduce the concept. So sorry about that if that frustrated anyone.

[01:29:18] Like I said I don't remember exactly what it is about but I do remember that you said Obi Wan and I remember that because that's what you call your son on the podcast. Yeah.

[01:29:28] The second one I can't remember if I bleeped this or just took it out but it was actually it wasn't even a Star Wars spoiler at all.

[01:29:33] It was a Wheel of Time spoiler and you were comparing a character from the Wheel of Time to you know a dogmatic character who might not be Darkseid in this show.

[01:29:46] And I didn't I took it out because it's a character who's going to play a prominent role in season three and I didn't want a Wheel of Time. And so I didn't want a lot of Wheel of Time listeners.

[01:29:57] The third bleep I remember is last week when you said something about a blind Jedi. You said their name and I bleeped the name and then said afterwards that was about a blind Jedi.

[01:30:08] And I think I was actually protecting most of the audience listening on that one because I will be straightforward about that. That is not from a live action thing. The character you were referring to.

[01:30:18] So if you don't know who the blind Jedi is and no we're not talking about the monk who appears in live action who is a guardian of the wheel not a Jedi.

[01:30:27] Then yeah if you don't know that then that is that is part of one of the most satisfying story character arcs in all of Star Wars. And I think because it's not live action a lot of people don't know it yet.

[01:30:40] So I am if you don't know who it is already then you are who I'm protecting on that. Justice for. I did it really long so that you could do a nice long bleep on me. Lots of lightsaber sounds.

[01:30:57] And then I also this week I bleeped myself for saying the name of a character in Ahsoka and as someone who listens to punk music if you don't know who that is don't worry about it.

[01:31:07] But basically like when it comes to titles like Ahsoka or there's another TV show called Obi Wan like I'm not going. There's an inherent spoiler in that I'm not going to pretend that Ahsoka is not in Ahsoka. Maybe it's all about her force ghost.

[01:31:20] But I will try to protect like the identities of other characters that show up because I don't want you to know who does or doesn't die in stories before that. Things like that. Yeah. And so those are the four that I remember. I don't know.

[01:31:36] Do you remember any others? I don't remember. Well I don't I rarely listen to podcasts that I've recorded because then I have to listen to my own voice and I have to cringe. Yeah. OK.

[01:31:46] But yeah I hope that the flashback episode this was written before the flashback episode. I hope that that scratched the itch for you in getting the answer from Saul finally.

[01:31:56] And Kubert thank you for the self-reflection and you know your opinions are valid and valued no matter how many stars they come with. Yeah. No like I said last time I do really appreciate the weighing in. I appreciate the diversity of opinions.

[01:32:11] I also want to thank NVM CB Puck Gremlin and Mark A who left really nice reviews this week. I've read them I really appreciate them.

[01:32:22] I'm not quoting them because they didn't specifically bring up the spoiler policy but yeah I that really helps when when people leave reviews saying that they're enjoying it and it helps other listeners to find it.

[01:32:34] So yeah it's lame I know for podcasters to be like please don't leave negative reviews but it is appreciated when you email the negative feedback just because I'll be perfectly honest I'm trying to build an audience.

[01:32:48] Yeah and there is something about Star Wars that brings up the negative reviews. Right.

[01:32:53] Like I've said this for a while like our Star Wars podcast has our Star Wars specific feeds on the warhounds has by far the lowest average rating and I don't think that we cover Star Wars any worse than any other shows. No.

[01:33:09] And I just think that it's so funny that we Star Wars is so graded on a curve.

[01:33:14] Well I know I mean there was there were people who were like just leaving one stars for anything that said Acolyte and that happened to the Star Wars Canon timeline podcast as well like I noticed it says Acolyte in the title for SDR reasons and yeah there were just like there was just suddenly a batch.

[01:33:29] Oh this previously Acolyte on the warhounds feed though I'll say that. Okay.

[01:33:33] In this case yeah there was suddenly there was like a batch of one star ratings I'm like well I have a feeling I know what that's about I'm not going to take it personally those people didn't leave reviews.

[01:33:41] Yeah it's really weird like even on the warhounds YouTube channel because we just auto post all our podcast as well you know basically just thumbnail videos on YouTube and it's just funny like somebody comment they were like this Star Wars is terrible and I was like I don't make it buddy.

[01:34:00] We just talk about it. Yeah. What do you what do you think you think Leslie had lit is browsing the reviews of this podcast. Yeah exactly.

[01:34:09] Bob Iger is going to be suddenly be like you know what you know warhounds podcast is doing poorly in the rankings so I just have to cancel. I'm going to stop making Star Wars. Make Star Wars more white because the warhounds they're going down in their rankings.

[01:34:26] So I just I'm going to shout out to the two other reviews that were left and they said did say something about the spoiler policy so first john g4 that's a five star review thank you so much said I love this podcast especially how the spoiler rules almost make it its own story keep it up.

[01:34:45] So just for the balance of things and then you call 098 left a four star review and ended it with PS I don't feel strongly either way about the unique spoiler policy but it's a cool concept to see the stories from their perspectives without rehashing all the more well known stories from the Imperial era and gives us an interesting perspective so cool smiley face.

[01:35:08] Nice range of opinions you want to take the next one.

[01:35:11] Sure Matthew F says I didn't want to leave a negative review that would impact your search rankings but I have to say I think that per the negative review the strict spoiler policy really does a disservice to an otherwise very enjoyable podcast.

[01:35:25] I would strongly suggest that you allow knowledge of the mainline movies to be discussed it's just so awkward to maintain the conceit that the viewers don't know the basic core plot it really distracts from otherwise fantastic content in my experience.

[01:35:36] Of course tastes can vary so this is just one data point thanks for producing fun content and being a positive voice in the fan community. I mean yes so the spoiler policy I think.

[01:35:49] No one was complaining about this until we did the lower hounds crossover and I think that that is the main thing is it's mostly people I mean someone you know correct me if I'm misrepresenting you but for a lot of people I think it was a surprise that something was being covered in the lower hounds feed that way.

[01:36:06] Whereas in the star wars canon timeline podcast is just inherent to the structure of the podcast to like the point of why I'm doing this podcast this way.

[01:36:16] Yeah I guess well I also think it's the first like on screen thing that you're talking about on this too right. Right well yeah like young Jedi nobody is watching.

[01:36:26] So right so you know when you when people are excited to talk about a new thing they're like oh I want to talk about all the things I know.

[01:36:34] And so that might be the reason that suddenly it came out of the woodwork but you know to compare it you know hot tea is one thing but to compare it to something that I think is even a closer analog is rings of power like we know what happens in that whole second.

[01:36:47] Right.

[01:36:48] And if you go back to our rings of power coverage which I kind of want to redo season one because I didn't know how to podcast back then but even even on season two I know my plan is I I know a lot about what's going to happen and I'll talk about what happened in the Lord of the Rings but I'm not going to talk about the other stuff that I was in the second age I don't want to talk I don't want to spoil things that might happen in the show.

[01:37:08] Right. Yeah and that's yeah that's that's kind of the idea and I think it's going to get a lot easier to once we get into the next era and we're talking about Anakin I said the name Anakin.

[01:37:18] And then people are going to be less eager about like why aren't you talking about Anakin which we are we're talking about Anakin's midi-chlorian Jesus that's yeah I told you that's how he enters the story.

[01:37:29] I acknowledge the existence of this important character we're going to talk a lot about I'm not going to bring up what happens with him until we get there because I just think it's more fun to like take a moment and look at the current place we are.

[01:37:46] I think you get Matt Lennar for an interview I believe in you. That'd be cool. Alright.

[01:37:55] So moisture farmer says listening to the new app now and the discussion of feedback about not mentioning characters events etc that haven't happened yet I was mixed on that initially but likening it to book reader versus viewer for things like Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings makes a ton of sense to me.

[01:38:12] I think my resistance was primarily who doesn't know who Luke or Yoda or Vader are these things are so pervasive in pop culture if you're listening to this you have a passing familiarity stop being coy laughing emoji goofy face emoji but I am not a reader of George RR Martin or Robert Jordan and immensely enjoy those shows.

[01:38:32] So Robert Jordan is is a real time and George RR Martin obviously Game of Thrones dance dance of dragons.

[01:38:40] And I support his right to say how many legs a dragon has in his books anyway recent blog post moisture farmer says my enjoyment has been enhanced considerably for the house of the dragon and wheel of time podcast especially by lore hounds with wheel of time for what it's worth.

[01:38:59] And it might not have been if it was full of open acknowledgement of plot and character moments yet to come. Just wanted to say I appreciated both the listeners feedback and your openness to it with the discussion.

[01:39:10] It helped me better understand my own point of view with a reminder about the importance of diversity of opinion and how it can further our understanding and enjoyment of all this great content kudos. And then TATMAITM there are too many acronyms in this message lol.

[01:39:29] Initialisms yeah for the record by the way we have talked about Yoda a lot he's already 700 more than 700 by the time of the acolyte so.

[01:39:40] Is around yeah anyone who wants to know more about Yoda species we go into that especially in the young Jedi adventures episodes and we're definitely talking about Yoda and yaddle in the episodes which you may have already listened to if you listen to this later where we break down the different phases of the hyper public books.

[01:39:58] But yeah Luke invader aren't alive yet at this point so we can say those names those are characters people might have heard of but we won't spoil the stories yet and yeah yeah and thank you for the wheel of time love yay next season you actually get to hear me I'm being released from the white tower dungeon.

[01:40:15] I think David is from what I've heard from him I don't think he's interested in covering season three but I'll let him I'll let him decide what as we get closer. Yeah in 2026. All right you want to take the last one.

[01:40:32] Oh no I scrolled up I've made a huge mistake all right here we go Caitlin.

[01:40:38] Hi Alicia and John I am a newish lorehounds fan and I and an even newer Star Wars fan I found the lorehounds while looking for wheel of time content and have been a listener ever since well thank you Caitlin it's so nice to see people coming in for wheel of time.

[01:40:53] It's a smaller community but it is a hearty one. It is a passionate community.

[01:40:58] Yeah I'm emailing in response to some of the spoiler feedback you've gotten in particularly in particular the feedback that said do you really think people are watching acolyte without having watched the rest of Star Wars or something to that effect.

[01:41:12] Well I am here to say that I am literally that person after dating a Star Wars superfan for four years I have finally just watched all me nine main movies I started May 4th 2024 and finished June 30th 2024.

[01:41:25] I have seen zero other Star Wars content until now acolyte is my first live watch and it was released on June 4th 2024 so yes I was in fact watching acolyte without having seen all the main movies.

[01:41:38] I realized that I'm probably an extremely small minority and that most people have already seen Star Wars by the year 2024 either way I really appreciate the spoiler restrictions as someone who hasn't seen most of the franchise.

[01:41:50] I love the amount of lore provided and find it digestible and interesting even as a new fan I tried to listen to other podcasts that felt a bit careless and even elitist in a way though I do not expect other podcasts to cater to us very few newbies.

[01:42:05] I really appreciate the way you structure your structure helps those who are just starting our journey. Best Caitlin. Vindication. Yes that certainly take your victory lap Alicia before I continue.

[01:42:21] Well no I mean I just want to say that I know it might be a minority but I know other people who are in the same boat as Caitlin and I've been surprised by people who I'm like wait you don't even know the major twist in like the original trilogy.

[01:42:37] Yeah. I know Caitlin you're not alone.

[01:43:12] Several thousand people downloaded our last acolyte episode and when I think about this you can't assume that all of those people are super fans like you you know like you know the I'm talking to the people who are writing and saying like well everybody knows this I just think that you can't assume that everyone's as committed a fan as you and you know.

[01:43:37] There's a lot there's a whole generation that saw the sequel trilogy and nothing else right because they went and they went oh this sounds like a cool franchise and they went in and maybe they didn't go back maybe because they were disappointed by the last movie and but maybe they didn't go back and they didn't watch the original trilogy guys it was in 1977 how many other movies from 1977 have you watched recently.

[01:43:57] Yeah. That's all I'm saying is I do think that there's a bit of original trilogy centrism.

[01:44:05] That is not necessarily true for everybody it is true for a lot of the fandom but I don't think that you can say it's universal and so I appreciate this take that you know it's not not everybody has already seen everything especially the animated stuff my god I mean so many people have not watched the animated stuff where most of the lore is on screen.

[01:44:25] Exactly. Yeah and some of the greatest story arcs and we got a reference to I mean I said I did say openly Osaka has a good reference story arc in the clone wars I think that's fine to say but I'm not going to tell you.

[01:44:37] Right goes blind in a different series you know because it's a spoiler yeah. Right justice for all right I won't do it again I won't make you believe it again.

[01:44:46] But yeah if you've skipped the books if you've skipped the animated series then you are also missing some really cool lore but we're gonna fix that together if for those of you who are listening to the Star Wars canon timeline podcast.

[01:44:59] Yeah maybe if I if I can elbow my way into this phase two higher public books. Well yeah no that's something actually that is something I want to set up for the near future it's going to be an upcoming flashback episode.

[01:45:11] So are you going to do phase two first. Yes. Okay all right. Because that chronologically happens first. Fair enough.

[01:45:18] Yeah okay well we'll keep the outro short since not much has changed since a few days ago so get your full house of the dragon coverage on the lore hounds and prep for rings of power on rings and rituals and it sounds like we're getting a season wrap up of the boys on radioactive rambling soon.

[01:45:36] Yep yep. On the Star Wars canon timeline podcast do check out the canon ancient myths episode.

[01:45:44] Oh and I did get feedback today from Adam thank you so he said that he did not get notifications on podcast addict either which is the app that I use and just I don't know you might have to turn it on on podcast addict I have mine set up to auto refresh every eight hours.

[01:46:00] And so when it does that I get a notification that says all the episodes that have been released in the past eight hours even if they're backdated. So I don't know. Okay.

[01:46:10] But that's yeah that's just one thing so I but I've decided that like I said that is clearly not how this works on on most podcast players so I'm going to try it a different way this week at the before the next episode of the accolade comes out.

[01:46:25] Watch out for a Star Wars visions Sith legends episode where I'm joined by two of my besties one is a professional animator and the other is a Sith lover and we're going to talk about we're actually going to talk about three of the episodes from that international animated anthology series that are set in the old Republic.

[01:46:44] And then we're also doing a separate episode we're going to record them at the same time but we're going to separate them into two episodes but we're talking about two more that are set during the hyper public era and these are legends of course but there's some cool stuff to pick out of them.

[01:46:59] And yeah see the show notes for information about which episodes are being covered and then we'll see everyone next week for the finale may be many minutes long. I'm sure it will be well maybe not the episode but our coverage will be.

[01:47:13] I've got some I've got some music lined up and you want to do the shout outs. Oh sure let's do it let's do it. Let's see where we got so again rolling the dice here. Let's see what this is. All right.

[01:47:30] NARLs Aaron K killer the thriller dork of the ninjas do 71 Captain Gingy 56 and Athena a are our discord server boosters lore masters some Martian Michael G Michelle E. David W. Brian P. S.C. Peter O.H. Tina W. Adam S. Nancy M. Do 71 Brian 80 63 Frederick H. Sarah L.

[01:47:59] Gareth C. Eric F. Matthew M. Sarah M. DJ Miwa. Here we go. Any more music. Yeah. Andre B. Wong you dead I. Jedi Nathan T. Alex V. Aaron T. Sub zero Aaron K. Dali V. Mother ship 61 NARLs Kathy W. Stewart B. Our new supercastle or master Jeffrey B.

[01:48:38] And Audrey on thank you all thank you all for your support sorry for the silly voices we're still we're still trying out new sounds here. I hope you guys are enjoying our new musical takes on I think I think it livens it up.

[01:48:52] I think David said it on a recent podcast he's like look if anyone's listening by now they're here for the laughs.

[01:48:59] It was like two hours into our how deep coverage I even did it on the interview with the vampire I know you didn't listen to the end of that episode because of spoilers but I'm ready to watch. All right awesome. I can't wait to hear what you think.

[01:49:12] But anyway at the end I did my some music with it and then I said see guys I did the music. Well I'll listen to that eventually. Yeah. That was a great podcast everyone should go check that out.

[01:49:24] Yes yes definitely you'll find that in the main lower hounds feed and the first part is non spoiler free for people who haven't watched the show and you're like I don't know if I want to watch the show listen to us talk about it and you can decide.

[01:49:39] All right well thank you for all of you who are listening through to this point. It's been some great discussion.

[01:49:45] Thank you to everyone who's weighed in positive or negative about about the spoiler policy about the episode we really like John said earlier this is the type of Star Wars discourse that we want you know.

[01:49:58] Yeah and only a Sith deals in absolutes you can you could have nuanced feedback too. It's OK. Exactly exactly. And thank you to this awesome community for showing us that. Absolutely. All right well we will see you all.

[01:50:12] I mean I guess I'll see you on the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast in just a few days with that Star Wars visions episode and then we'll see you back in all the feeds for the finale wrap up. Just one more episode. All right.

[01:50:26] See you on the other side. See ya. The Lore Hounds podcast is produced and published by the Lore Hounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at the lorehounds dot com slash contact.

[01:50:39] Get early and ad free access to all the Lore Hounds podcast at Patreon dot com slash the Lore Hounds and connect with us on Twitter at the Lore Hounds.

[01:50:47] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening. OK David this is where we're supposed to choose a side green or black. John my soul is as black as night. Your turn.

[01:51:18] I am black for life. So we're not fighting. I thought this is where HBO wanted us to pick sides and fight and stuff. Don't worry I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod but we seem to agree on one thing.

[01:51:31] We both really like this show. The politics the drama the lore it was made for the Lore Hounds. And since we just finished recapping season one we couldn't be more ready to defend our black queen in the Dance of the Dragons.

[01:51:43] And with the season pass option in Supercast listeners can get early ad free access to each weekly scene by scene deep dive plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections.

[01:51:55] See you in the Lore Hounds podcast feed each week for our dragon fire hot but probably positive takes. The Lore Hounds House of the Dragon coverage is also safe for team green consumption.

[01:52:04] Side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore a heart in conflict with itself and an inescapable urge to read the book Fire and Blood by George R.R. Martin. Dragon seeds may experience burning.