The Last of Us - S02E01 - Future Days

[00:00:00] The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. In one podcast, called The Lorehounds by Some, a weekly recap with tons of analysis, two Wheel of Time superfans will lead you through a world of powerful magic, tricky prophecies, and cutthroat politics. Join me, John, and my co-host Alicia for weekly coverage of Season 3 by searching your podcast app for The Lorehounds.

[00:00:27] Dov'y andi se tovas again. It's time to roll the dice. Welcome to The Lore of Us podcast, where The Lorehounds, your guides to the fungal apocalypse.

[00:00:56] I'm David, and this is our coverage of Episode 1 of Season 2, Future Days, for The Last of Us on HBO. Today with me, as he was many years ago, John. How you doing, John? That's me. We're in our future days now, so we can do a lot more even though you're traveling and I'm sick, so we're off to a great start for Season 2. I'm infected, I guess.

[00:01:22] Yeah, right. Just, you know, cut open your belly a little bit to hide the infection scars. That's right. I wish I had immunity. That would be great. So we're going to start off with our hot takes for the episode, and then we're going to get into a thematic-based discussion of the episode. If you want to contact us and be part of our feedback, you can send an email to T-L-O-U at thelorehounds.com or you can head on our Discord, which you can find at the link in the show notes.

[00:01:49] If you would like to support the podcast, you can subscribe for monthly subscriptions at Patreon or on Supercast. It's like the same thing as Patreon, just a little bit better for podcasters. There are links for everything in the link tree in the show notes below.

[00:02:08] So, Jon, what else have we got going on in the Lorehounds? We'll have some more at the end of the podcast, but you and Alicia are just finishing up on Wheel of Time. So if you're a Wheel of Time fan, go check that out. You guys are, is this the last week? Yeah, we're just about to record the last episode, and that'll come out on the day of the premiere. Amazing. And we're about to start Andor next week, so we're rolling off a huge property, Wheel of Time. We just came off of Severance. Now we've got Wheel of Time.

[00:02:36] Now we've got Last of Us, and now we're going straight into Andor. But fortunately, we're calling in our squadrons. We're going to have some air support coverage for us to cover the crazy release schedule that they're doing for Andor. So expect episode-by-episode coverage from us. Jon, you, and Alicia, and myself, we're each going to take one episode per week, and then we'll have different rotating co-hosts with us to cover.

[00:03:04] So that way we can take the Empire on in force. That's right. That's right. It's going to be great. Also, Alicia and I both were unsure if we were going to do full coverage of Doctor Who. Then we watched episode two of Doctor Who on screeners, and we were like, this is, we need to keep covering. So I guess stay tuned for our episode two coverage on the day of release.

[00:03:30] I love it. And Ian from Captain Spot is joining you guys, which is great because you have a legit Brit on the podcast now to make us sound more authentic. We now are legally allowed to talk about Doctor Who. Before that, it was an illicit podcast. I love it. So let's get into The Last of Us. It's been so long, I forgot what our theme music sounded like until you just played it on the intro.

[00:03:51] So this was a early podcast for us back in our day. You were chuckling at some of our early material earlier on on our Discord. And you are a big fan of the games, if I'm not incorrect in that. Yeah, I played both games. I've played the DLC, Left Behind. And I think they're great, amazing games. I think they changed the face of gaming because they were the first ones to do this kind of linear storytelling that was very cinematic.

[00:04:22] And I think a lot of games today are embodied after that formula. And this, to me, is one of the most interesting gaming adaptations because of the heavy involvement of Neil Druckmann, who created the games, creative director of the games. But also because Craig Mazin has played the games. It's made by and for gamers. And there's something magical about it.

[00:04:48] Right. And if I'm not mistaken, this is one of your personal favorite games. You adore this property. Yeah, this was one where I had just started dating my wife. So this would have been around 2014. I think the original game came out in 2013. And she had the game. And she just had that lying around. And I was over at her house. And she's like, why don't you try this one? We both like video games. Why don't you try this one? And I just played it and I beat it in a day. We canceled all our plans.

[00:05:18] And we just took turns. Awesome. So a lot of deep history for you. Yeah. Right. I knew nothing about this game prior to the show coming on air. And when we got word that this show was going to be coming to HBO, you were like, we have to cover this. And I was like, okay, cool.

[00:05:37] And I think I really enjoyed season one as much as a non-game player possibly could. I just thought that everything, the casting, the cinematography, the writing, it's smart. It really respects its audience. It respects the audience who've never played the game. And it respects the audience who have played the game.

[00:06:04] At least that's what you guys tell me. And I was really taken with it. And so I am pretty excited to be back into this world and talking about this with you guys. Because this show kind of goes back into our roots. It does. It does. And this is one where most games that have good stories, people say they're like, for a video game, this has an amazing story. This was one of the first games, I think, where people said, this has a great story, no caveats.

[00:06:33] Like this, you could put this story toe to toe with any movie or show. And that's what makes this franchise special. This was one of the first games to do that. And that was on purpose. That was something that Neil Druckmann really wanted to do. And so here we have a show that is trying to translate that and making smart adjustments for the medium. We talk about the shippy test, right? Right.

[00:06:57] This is the message of meeting the medium. And we talk about, you know, are the changes necessary for the medium? And here, I think absolutely every one of the changes makes perfect sense for the medium. I think of the way that they changed Bill and Frank in season one, where it went from like this kind of nothing burger of a story that was just a sad story into this tragic Romeo and Juliet kind of thing, you know? Better than Romeo and Juliet because they had a happy ending.

[00:07:26] Right. Right. They had their own agency. Yeah. And, and yeah, the, I have to say I did a rewatch not long ago and I think if we had been doing the category of favorite episode of television for that calendar year, I think the Bill and Frank episode would be that for the year that this came out. It was so good.

[00:08:20] I had no clue that there's just nothing that is telling me that this is a video game. Yeah. It stands on its own completely. Yeah. Well, should we get into our hot takes for the episode? Let's do it. Reality is nothing but a collective hunch. It's like, I don't know why they brought that line in. It's a Lily Tomlin line, like literally from one of her things, but I just had to put it in my outline somewhere because I thought that that was pretty funny. I don't know. Does that have any game relevance to it? No, I just thought it was good.

[00:08:48] I, as far as I know, that's not a game, a game reference. Right. So I've been trying to stay away from the other reviews and official podcasts and other podcasts. I got a little spoiled today when I was trying to call up some cast information. And I think I know who Abby is, but you know, or who, but what's some of the things that's going on with her. Yeah. So I'm trying to. Can I just say that in the, in the post credit, like how we made the episode thing. Right.

[00:09:17] They are like spoiling things like that. And I don't know if that's what they meant to do or if like somebody in production put them in the wrong episode or something. Hmm. But, uh, be careful out there. I'm not going to spoil like Abby's origins or anything like that. Like you already know most of them, but there are some details that I think are, uh, important that you don't know yet. If you, if you only watch the episode, uh, and, and so be careful out there with like the, the extra stuff. Yeah.

[00:09:45] I was even just looking, I think I might've been on Wikipedia and I was just trying to find some cast member stuff and boom, there was the thing. And I was like, ah, shit. Now I like now I'm spoiled for that. So yeah, I'm going to try to avoid a lot of that personally. Cause I just want to be with the show and let the show runners do their thing. So, but that's a really good call. Just everybody be careful Googling out there. Right. Be careful with Googles. So I thought that this was a pretty solid season opener.

[00:10:16] It sets the stakes. It reminds us of the big thing that sort of the big outcome from last season, which is the big lie. Like we start that sort of right away. We build the world, we see Jackson, and then they introduce all the elements that start the sort of ticking clock. That is going to be the drama of this episode. I did see the main trailer that was released.

[00:10:41] So I've got a lot of that visual imagery in my head, but that's really all I've consumed sort of external media wise. So I see, I see some of the stuff that they're laying down, right? There's going to be some big dramatic set pieces. There's a bunch of stuff, the lie, but they, in the story, they did a good job of setting things up that there's more infected around. There's fungus in the pipe, right? And we obviously, we have the fireflies.

[00:11:08] And I also thought that the opening fight sequence, even though I wasn't faked out by it, but there was a line in there where, oh, what's his name? I forget his name off the top of my head. It's somewhere down in my notes here. Anyway, the young gentleman that is sort of refereeing the fight. Oh, Jesse? Jesse. Was he refereeing that? Okay. Yeah, yeah. It was Jesse. That's right.

[00:11:35] He says, oh, yeah, I told the other guy to pull his punches. And Ellie's like, don't ever do that again. Like, fight straight, right? For real. And I kind of thought that this episode was giving us some easy plot wins. Like, oh, fungus in the pipe. Or just seeing the roots in the pipe. Oh, I'm like, oh, fungus is coming there. Oh, there's a bunch of, they're really highlighting the wall a lot. You know, and, oh, wall duty is terrible.

[00:12:03] And they show us lots of scenes of the wall and the door opening and closing. Okay, so we're probably going to get a battle sequence, you know, something around that. So they're giving us a lot of easy plot wins. But what that does is that that's pulling me in because I'm like, oh, I get the show. I see what they're putting down. I'm vibing with what it is.

[00:12:24] But what I think it really is, is a giant sucker move to pull us in really close and then punch us really, really, really hard in the face a lot of times. So I'm sort of bracing myself for, man, if season one kind of, you know, I felt like a little emotionally beat up coming out of it. But I have no idea what to expect in season two.

[00:12:49] So I thought that was that little fight scene kind of set things up nicely for me. So I'm pretty excited by what they're setting up. It feels like we're going to get a lot of flashbacks as well. Obviously, we have the major theme of this season. One of the major themes of the season is the big lie and that sort of, you know, thing that's in between Joel and Ellie. And it's festering and it's going to come to the surface. Moral injury.

[00:13:18] That's a great way to put it. And so that obviously is going to be a big plot device, a little, a big crank. It's like a big dial that we can just turn up and call drama. The drama meter. Yeah. It's the drama meter. And we're just going to crank that dial up pretty high.

[00:13:39] And then the, I think one of the favorite things that I had for this episode was the fact that they show us the conversation that Joel and Ellie have. When Joel says the big lie and they're standing there overlooking Jackson right in down in the valley.

[00:14:04] And then they end the episode with Abby and her crew at night, not in the daylight, but at night, standing basically in the same place with Jackson down in the valley. And I was like, oh, nice. Just a really nice bow wrapper on the whole episode. So that was really great framing. I want to tell you too about that first one, the continuation scene. That was just literally just the continued shot from the end of last season.

[00:14:34] They, uh, they had filmed more and there was a debate on how much to use. Oh, interesting. They decided in editing to cut it where they did, but they were just used the whole shot in the beginning of the season. Nice. Nice. Cause they, they were like, do we end it where the game did? Which is what they ended up doing. Uh huh. Just with okay cut. And I think that's perfect. I don't, I don't think they should have gone further. Right. Uh, but, or do we say like next season we're going to Jackson? Right. Right. Nice. So John, what did you think of this? Uh, uh, how long have we been away?

[00:15:04] Two years, three years? It's been two years. Two years. This was 2023. Uh, yeah, it was January. Time is a flat circle. So it was like a little bit, a little bit over two years. I think that's pretty good for, for a fantasy show these days. It's not bad for a high budget. High. Yeah. Big name. Yeah. That's not bad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's kind of the standard turnaround right now. Yeah. Um, I, I thought it was great. They, they, you know, listening to you talk, I'm like, oh, he has no idea what's coming for him.

[00:15:32] The emotional, the emotional damage that Neil Druckmann and Craig Mason are about to inflict upon you is just. That's what I'm saying. The fight scene, right? For it. No, I'm not there, but they're suckering me in. They're like, I'm like, oh, okay. I get it. I see the foreshadowing. I see the checkoff's pipe with the, you know, things that like, man, you got no idea what's coming at you. Just like that big guy, you know, they're not pulling punches. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're not.

[00:15:58] And, and they're doing something that they did last season, which is they have some surprises and delights for game players to remember the, the, uh, the fungus having these, you know, network of branches that's new in the show that did not exist. That mechanic in the game. Right. There was a spore mechanic where like, if there was an, a long time infected person, like dead infected person in the, in a basement or something, right? Yeah. Well, they, they would just like emanate spores.

[00:16:26] And so you'd have to wear gas masks and probably they didn't want to like have big name actors wearing gas masks all the time. And that was like a change in the show. I remember, uh, a lot of the conversation around the expanse and they were, the, the guys were talking about how terrible it is to shoot, especially TV movies a little different, but TV with helmets like they fog up, they're uncomfortable for the actors. Yeah. You got Pedro Pascal in the Mandalorian. We never get to see him. Right. You know, it's right. Right. So. Yeah.

[00:16:56] So I'm, I'm sure there were many reasons for that change. Uh, and, and just, there was no threat like that. And I can't even think of like a comparable threat like that in the game at this point. So I don't know what's going on with that. And that's exciting to me because now something new can happen. Um, there, there was a lot more character development in Jackson. Uh, and I thought that that was great. They added some great characters like Gail, the therapist, amazing job.

[00:17:24] I heard, I listened to the official podcast and I heard Craig Mazin say something that I loved, which was he subscribes to the Vince Gilligan theory of comedy actors, which is, you know, you cast a comedy actor for a dramatic role, uh, to get the best performance. Wow. Okay. He cast, he cast, uh, Catherine O'Hara, who is famous comedy actor. Right. We'll talk about her more later. So. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I just think amazing choice for that, uh, really set up Dina. Well, I think she was a star of this episode really shined the performance.

[00:17:54] Uh, it was the Dina show. It really was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I loved Joel and his contractor setting that again is, is something that they've added in the show, this whole big background. Um, I think he might've been a contractor in the books book in the game too. Uh, but they didn't put this emphasis on it and it wasn't like they were like, no, he's a contractor again in Jackson. Uh, but I, I really love how they've like in just a few scenes, they really stationed where everyone is as pillars of this community. Yeah.

[00:18:24] Right. Right. And that's, that's so impressive. Can I just interject something to you really quick about that? Well, I don't want to get too far off it. Uh, on our discord, we have a channel set up for, it's called the forum. Uh, it's a weird discord's weird in some ways, but anyway, we've got a whole thing set up for the last of us and each episode will have its own siloed, uh, channel. So you can conversate in there without, you know, anybody else being spoiled, spoiled if they haven't seen that, uh, episode yet gone to that channel.

[00:18:53] But I opened up another channel I I'm calling, uh, what did I call it? Clicker caps or something like that? I forget. I believe so. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm posting screen captures from the episode as I'm rewatching the episode. And there is this great, just things that I'm, I find interesting and beautiful shots and little clues and stuff like that. And there's this beautiful shot of Joel. The first shot of Joel that we see he's it's called a frame in a frame, right?

[00:19:19] So there's the frame of the shot and then there's a inner frame, the wall, the building, uh, you know, the doorway behind where he's sitting. And it's just a great shot because in that moment, we learn that he's a contractor. We learn that he's aged. You know, we just, we learned so much about him in just one visual bite. Right. And it tells you, it just told me everything I needed to know about where Joel is in this world right now that he's gone back to being a contractor. Right.

[00:19:47] And you know how many details they're, they're paying attention to there. Uh, I, again, I'm going to pull up the official podcast one more time. I don't think I'm going to mention it again because I don't want it to be like a regurgitation of the official podcast. Exactly. Uh, picks up Ellie's guitar. There was like a whole discussion where Craig Mason is like trying to determine the angle the guitar should be at in a teenager's room and how much dust should be on it. Amazing.

[00:20:17] Like that is the level of detail that they're looking at there. And I, and I think that's great. I think that's really great. Um, but yeah, I mean, overall really effective first episode. I, like I said, I, they didn't get as far as I thought they were going to get plot wise, but I'm glad that they slowed it down because we know that they're taking multiple seasons, two or three to get through game two. I think that's smart. It's a lot longer of a game and it has more depth in perspectives. Okay. So I, I am excited to see what they do with this.

[00:20:47] I think somebody on our discord posted that, uh, season three has already been approved before, before the episode aired. Amazing. I love that. That gives me so much energy for the show. I hate it when they like, Oh, Dune, when they, when the Dune, the movie came out, the Villeneuve movie, they didn't say until like a week later. And so you're just like, what, what are you guys doing? But knowing that three is coming, I can build my investment into the show, into

[00:21:15] the characters, into the story in a way that I can't, if we're like, I don't know if we're going to get another season. So I'm really glad that they did that. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm over here crying about the wheel of time because we, we still have no idea. Yeah. And, uh, but that's apparently an Amazon thing. Like I think rings of power got renewed like a month or two ago. Like it's not. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like they're redoing quickly anymore. It's, it's very frustrating.

[00:21:42] Anyway, anything else for the hot take? I think I'm good. Okay. Well, maybe we could take a little break and then when we come back, we will get into the episode. Let's do it.

[00:22:12] And we're back. Like, so I titled this section before we get into the episode proper, I entitled it Joel is a monster and other context. And if you were listening with us back then, I, uh, I, I said for the final episode that Joel is a monster and everybody got all of an arms. We had to do a two part. We had so much feedback. We had to break it up into two completely separate podcasts.

[00:22:41] Uh, anyway, I'm so that's just a little wink and a nod. And I should also mention that we have a blog on our webpage and one of our lore master subscribers and friend of the pod do 71 wrote a really great, uh, blog post about this very topic and about sort of talking about the moral complexity of the character of Joel. So definitely go to lorehounds.com and go to the blog and read that because it's a, it's a really nice read from doof. Anyway, we have a five-year time jump.

[00:23:10] And so this is just a little preamble before we get in just a few little, I got a couple of nitpicks, but I wanted to, we wanted to sort of set some contextual issues as well. Um, so we've got a five-year time jump. Um, there's a big question around the big lie, which I think is going to be something that we're going to be seeing a lot, which is does Ellie suspect or does Ellie know, or like what's going on for Ellie that she is pushing Joel away so

[00:23:39] hard behind besides just being a 19 year old kid. Um, so they've been here for five years. They've become part of the community. John, there was a sign, uh, when they were playing at the new year's party, it said 2029 is where the game pandemic and the TV show pandemic difference. Dark dates. Yes. The, the game was 2013 when the game came out, the show backtracked it to 2003. Okay. So that's why I'm confused.

[00:24:08] Cause I thought it should be like 2038 or something like that. So, so we're 25 years into the future from the pandemic. 26. Yeah. Yeah. The 26, the, uh, from the start of the fungal apocalypse. So we have a big thing about this trolley car problem, right? Which is, um, what would have Ellie, what would Ellie have done if she had had agency to choose? She didn't choose. Joel chose for her while she was under sedation.

[00:24:37] And so that's part of the big moral complexity. And I think part of the setup for this whole season. And I don't know, you have to tell me, does the title future days, how does that relate to the way that the season is kicking off or any of these sort of bigger meta context issues? Do we know about that? Yeah. So this is, this is a song that pops up in the game. We, I don't think we heard it at all this episode.

[00:25:05] No, I think we only had one needle drop for this one besides the jug band playing. But anyway, I think we'll probably, um, we'll probably hear it at some point. This is, this was a deliberate, like they referenced it in the podcast too. I said, I wasn't going to bring it up again, but this is, this is another thing because they, they said we're going to get out there. We're going to get ahead of this controversy because the song in real life came out in 2013, which would have made sense in the original timeline.

[00:25:31] And they said, do we have to pick another song for the show? Because the song wouldn't have existed. And to quote Craig Mazin, I don't give a fuck. I like the song. It's, it's important to this. We're keeping the song. This is a Pearl Jam song, uh, called future J future days. And, uh, the lyrics I think speak a lot to who Joel is. Joel is a monster. The first two lines, if I ever were to lose you, I'd surely lose myself. Perfect. Right.

[00:26:02] You know, that, that seems like Joel's anthem, right? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Okay, cool. So, um, there was a couple of other things that I wanted to point out really quick and this appeared to, I don't know that we talked about it, but it was definitely present for me last season, which are these totems, these character totems. So what do we think of, of when we think of Ellie, we think of the, her switchblade, or if we see the switchblade, we think Ellie, right? Right.

[00:26:32] Like the one episode when her mother died and, you know, or we see Ellie's literal, you know, origin story from that standpoint, you know, the switchblade was there and we're like, oh, okay, we get it. Right. This is, this is a big deal. Uh, we have, when we think of Joel, oftentimes we think of the watch that he had, you know, the, the one that his daughter got fixed for him, which I do not think I saw at all in this episode. Maybe he's letting her go a little bit. Uh, I think so. I think it's interesting.

[00:27:02] So that's why I wanted to highlight these a little bit. Uh, I think Tommy, for me, whenever I think of Tommy, I think of a rifle. Like there's just something about him, you know, his, his marksmanship, his time in the army, all of that kind of stuff. So that's kind of a totem for me. And then for Dina, I, I don't know anybody else really that I can pick a totem for yet, but for Dina, it's gotta be that knit hat. Okay. That hat is just so, I see it. I'm like, oh, that's Dina.

[00:27:32] Like I got it. So she's iconic. She is. Uh, one other funny little note, um, because they have it in the show giraffe. I don't know if you probably didn't know this, but giraffe are highly sought after in the bushmeat trade because it's people like it. So I'm surprised. I had no idea. Yeah. I'm surprised that people have not tried to eat those in, uh, in, in the show. So. Maybe they have, there's just enough. Yeah. You never even know. But anyway, I thought it was kind of cool.

[00:28:02] Well, I think those are just native to Salt Lake City now. They are now. That's where we were in the finale of last season. Yeah. So I had a couple of, uh, realism nitpicks that I wanted to call out, but I'm calling them out all in a way to kind of dispel them for myself because I see them as conceits for the story. And if we're 25 years into the future, if you picked up a paper magazine and it doesn't

[00:28:29] crumble in your hands or is, is almost unreadable, like that doesn't seem very realistic to me or like gas, right. That, you know, in, uh, in last season, you just got to let that go. Yeah, exactly. Right. Or cassette tapes. You know, we get a scene of, uh, of Ellie's, uh, garage bedroom and there's a whole bunch of cassette tapes and she's listening to a Nirvana song. Like I doubt that a lot of cassette tapes would be playable at, uh, this far in the future.

[00:28:56] Um, or, or cutting her own wound, you know, the, the, the sharpness of the knife, like that would be, have to be super sharp and you could probably speak to this, a guitar without a strap. You just can't. I don't keep a strap on my guitar. You do not. No. Well, I, if I, if I have to stand and do it, but I often just sit with an acoustic guitar. All right. All right. All right. It just seems to me like one of those things, like it's very hard to manipulate a guitar if you don't have a strap. So. Nah, well, maybe an acoustic guitar.

[00:29:26] Definitely. I don't do a strap unless I have to stand. Right. Okay. Fair enough. Anyway, just a couple of, there's, there's some little nitpicks like that, but again, I'm just calling them out, but you know, there's conceits for the show, their devices for the show and it's, it's fine. So I'm not gonna get too, too worried about it. So let's start talking about life in Jackson, this post apocalyptic community that has electricity, agriculture, governance, social life.

[00:29:55] It seems like Jackson has done really well for itself and it's starting to welcome or actually go out and bring people in where in the past they had been pushing people away. Yeah. They are, they're growing and you have this whole push from Maria. Like we have to build more, more, more. And, and actually telling Joel, like, Hey, we can't turn people away. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think it was sub zero in our discord who made a really interesting point too, about

[00:30:24] this whole question of being refugee and being an immigrant. And like, once you make it over and how, what your attitude is to other people behind you and, and, uh, Maria says to him like, man, you were a refugee once too, you know, like, yeah, this is a big pattern we see in the real world. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. But I, I mean, Jackson, if you're going to live anywhere in this world, Jackson seems like the place to be. But one of the, yeah.

[00:30:51] I mean, from what we've seen, this seems pretty, pretty good, pretty good, you know, great governance, electricity, like all of that. That's, that's pretty amazing. And they do a really good job of visually showing that to us too. As we lift up coming out of Jackson, they make a point of going right past the utility lines. And in lots of shots, like when Joel's sitting in that, uh, that house or when Ellie and Jesse

[00:31:19] and the other guy are fighting in the barn, there are electric heaters in the background. Mm-hmm. Heating the space up. And it's like, oh, okay. So they've, and we knew that from season one, but like they, you know, they're, they're, they're letting us know that this is a society that has not only stabilized itself, but is actually now prospering and growing. And people get to go outside, right? I mean, this is a lot different than Fedra in the first season.

[00:31:47] You know, these, these military run encampments. Right. Exactly. And, and where you would be punished for going outside where here it's more of a safety and thing. Right. So Joel is living a life as a, the, the chief contractor, like the, the town planning commission guy, like he's in charge of, of building stuff. He's got it. He's got it.

[00:32:13] I love, I love the, the shot of him just like stretching his joints because they're just starting to, it's just starting to bother him a little bit when he moves his hands. Well, if you remember, and I thought this was interesting cause we never see the watch, but that was the hand that he punched when he killed the Fedra guard. Oh. When they were escaping and all season one, that injury, he said, I think he told tests

[00:32:42] that maybe he got a hairline fracture. She asks him about it at one point and throughout the whole of season one, his hand is bothering him constantly. And so we see that old wound is there. So it's still Joel. He's aged, but there's, there's still some of his past, you know, uh, uh, and a lot more of his past is about to catch up, but a little bit, you know, in, in his body there. So. Yeah.

[00:33:11] He's not stopping the fire here. Hmm. I didn't know if I'm, am I, I don't, am I looking for Markley's and shadows with the circuit breaker with the, the bi-metallic switch and, and sort of, you know, uh, was there any foreshadowing in there or not? I don't know. Maybe that's just me, but here's the problem. If you ask me a question like that, I either have to like answer honestly and then rule out or rule for something definitely happening. Cause I know, or I have to lie. Right.

[00:33:41] Right. And I, I don't think either of those are satisfying for anybody. Okay. You're just going to have to guess at the foreshadowing. Sometimes you're just going to have to be silent. Yeah. I get it. What did you think? So this is where we first meet Dina. This is. Yep. Yep. And I, and I love, Hey kiddo. And it's a fake out, right? Mm-hmm. And she is very, I was like, are you, she was a little friendly with him a little too,

[00:34:08] too, uh, you know, too, uh, doughy eyed with him. So I, I, I kind of like, am suspect of her motives a little bit. I get the sense that Dina's like that with everybody though. She's a heartbreaker and a life taker. That's what I've dubbed her as. Okay. She is so emotionally available and interesting. And I think she's the kind of person that when her spotlight is on you, it, it feels

[00:34:36] like the sun, it feels warm and you're like, wow, this person is just so great. And I think that's going to be trouble for Ellie later on. Yeah. I was going to put on her sunscreen then. Exactly. Um, but that the way that they set up Dina, not only with Joel's relationship and then sort of the, the nuances that are going on there, but that she's able to deduce really quickly that he's in therapy.

[00:35:05] She's like, he's, he used some phrase like, I'm not responsible for somebody else's emotional state. Yeah. Well, big or whatever. And she's like, bro, are you in therapy? Cause that's not a normal thing that people talk about. Yeah. And, but also I think it's also a commentary on like, you know, people weaponize therapy speak all the time. Mm-hmm. A person who is awful to other people will go to therapy, get validated and then repeat what their therapist says as a defense for their action. Mm-hmm. And I think that's kind of what Joel is doing here. Okay.

[00:35:35] Like Joel knows he did something wrong here. Sure. Sure. And he's saying, okay, but I'm not responsible for what I, how, what I did made you feel. Mm-hmm. You know, and you're like, well, you kind of are. You're part of the conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, we don't know what, you know, what conversations they've had. We don't know what happened in those five years. We don't know if she knows, if she's figured it out, if, if it's something else.

[00:36:02] We know that there's new tension from what happens at the end of this episode. But other than that, we don't really know much about what's happened. And that he, he does, he, it goes, it goes right to the setup for this big. And that's dramatic tension, which is like, he asks her, what did I do? Dammit, Joel, you know what you did. Yep. And so he's doing exactly what you're saying is he's weaponizing the conversation in a way.

[00:36:31] He's trying to make Dina an ally. Right. Right. And Dina's like, oh, poor old man. Let me help you get your daughter back. So let's talk about Ellie a little bit. So she's 19 now. Yep. And I thought that doing the five-year jump in a show context makes sense given where, oh, remind me the actor's name. God.

[00:37:02] Bella Ramsey. Bella Ramsey. Thank you. Sorry. We're, I'm traveling and it's spring break and blah, blah, blah. So I'm out of pocket a little bit. But anyway, Bella Ramsey has grown up in the last couple of years. Well, this is right from the book. I mean, right from, oh my God, I'm going to keep saying the book. Right from the game is this time jump. It is. Okay. Yeah. There's a long time jump in the game too. So that was always going to happen. In fact, that was why people complained that Bella Ramsey was playing her because they said she's not going to look old enough in season two. I think she looks old enough in season two. Yeah. I think it's fine.

[00:37:31] I don't, I don't have a problem with it at all. It totally works for me. She, she seems now her attitude. It's another thing, but I don't know. It feels like a 19 year old to me. Right. And it feels like that. She doesn't look and act like a 19 year old. I've never met a 19 year old. Look back at your own past people. It's kind of hard to see yourself back then, but yeah, it's, it's very true.

[00:37:55] Uh, and so what is, so I think for me, a lot, a big question that I was asking myself is, okay, what's normal 19 year old behavior relative to how you're relating to your over protective parent figure, right? Versus what is, why the outsized reaction? What is having Ellie push him away so hard?

[00:38:25] Mm-hmm. It's one thing to try to, Hey, I'm making my way in the world. I want to separate a little bit. I need to, to, you know, get out into, and be my own identity. And Joel is very, yeah, exactly. Joel is very overprotective and a dominant personality in the town. So it makes sense to a degree, but then to what degree is it? It's her discomfort in their relationship. Yeah.

[00:38:55] I, I, I don't know. Pass. Okay. Because I think that's where the, the big lie is. I think it's fair to say like from her facial expression after he told her that we get in this extended opening, she doesn't fully buy it from the beginning. She does not fully buy what he says. Right. Right. I mean, she wouldn't have asked the question if she fully bought it. Right. Exactly. You're like, Oh my God, you rescued me from Raiders. That's amazing. Thank you so much. You know, and then move on. Right.

[00:39:25] But she actually had to challenge him. Like, bro, is that the truth? Like that wasn't him. That wasn't, that wasn't her asking if it was true. That was her asking if he was going to double down on the lie. That's a really good point. I didn't thought, I didn't think about it that way. She is smarter than that. Mm-hmm. She's very emotionally intelligent. Mm-hmm. Very emotionally intelligent. And she knows how to make people uncomfortable. Like she makes Tommy uncomfortable when they're out on patrol.

[00:39:53] I think she's also smart enough to know like something happened back there. Mm-hmm. And I can either accept that he did it for my best interest and we can move on and have a peaceful life here in Jackson. Mm-hmm. Or I can have this eat at me. And I don't know if the second one is a choice or not. I think that's a good point because can you, if you, if you feel that and you know that

[00:40:21] it's there, sometimes there's, how can you not let it affect you? You can put it out of your mind, but it's still going to be there. Right? You blast Nirvana to keep it out. You what? You blast Nirvana to keep it out. Exactly. Yeah. You know? And I, and I was questioning too, Joel's over protectiveness. Okay. You know, we had lone wolf and cub and they had to work their way through the wilderness

[00:40:50] and they formed a bond and all of that kind of stuff. Now they're safe in Jackson. So why the continued over protection? And I think for me, I was, I was questioning. I'm like, okay, is he feeling guilty about what he did to save her? Like what is going on internally for him and his own thoughts about that? But then also there's still another secret.

[00:41:18] So there's the lie about her quote unquote rescue, but then there's also the lie of a mission about her immunity. And is somewhere in the back of Joel's mind, a truth that still exists that she could be a cure for humanity. Right? Not just a treatment, but maybe even a cure. And maybe I should try to keep that safe as well.

[00:41:44] So I was just trying to question what Joel's motives were in terms of his overprotective nature beyond just the lone wolf and cub. And we survived the wilderness kind of stuff. Yeah. I think, I think it might be still most of like the lone wolf and cub though. Like that's just his daughter now. Mm-hmm. Which is interesting that Gail challenges him like Ellie's not your daughter either. Yeah. Yeah. You know, as much as Dina's not, you know, his like found foster kid, Ellie is too.

[00:42:14] Right. Right. And she's 19 now. So, you know, by laws of previous civilization. Exactly. Like what, what law is there now? Exactly. There's the community standards, but yeah. Mm-hmm. Where are you going to go? Oh, I'm going to move to Seattle. Oh, okay. Right. Good luck with that. What's the deal with Curtis and Viper? We get, we get that name drop twice in this episode. I didn't pick up on anything that they were meaning with that. Okay.

[00:42:44] So they, they, uh, uh, Dina calls, uh, she says to, when she comes to get. Oh, I'm sorry. This was a, this is a game callback. I forgot about this. I, um. You're sick. I, I just looked it up. Yeah. Yeah. Um, this was a, a fictional 80s action series. Yeah. That were referenced in the games.

[00:43:11] Uh, and it says Sarah borrowed her neighbor's DVD copy of Curtis and Viper two for her father's 36th birthday. Oh, that was the movie that they were on the watch together. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Oh, that's so sad. That's so sad. See, it's been a couple of years since I played the games. I should probably replay them. Yeah. Fair enough. So she gets, they, they, they name drop that twice and I don't know if that's just a wink and a nod for game players or if there's a little bit more going on there. So. I think that even happened in the show though.

[00:43:37] I, I think given in season one, they, uh, they borrowed the movie. Because they, they brought up the movie at the beginning and then the other, the other thing that, the other artifact that was recurrent was the comic book that Ellie and I forget the young boy's name. Yeah. Sam. Yes. Thank you. Uh, we're bonding over. So.

[00:44:02] Uh, the fight training, did you, uh, did you get sucker punched by that at all? Or did you pretty much figure out what it was from the, from the get pretty much right away? I was like, all right, she's, she's training. Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is not for real. She's sparring at least like at the, at the most it was going to be like a bar fight, but yeah, I, I wasn't, I wasn't tricked. You were or no? No, no, I wasn't not. I think we've watched too much television to be tricked by something like that. Probably. Probably.

[00:44:32] But one thing that I really liked in that scene was when she fell, we see her forearm and we see the tattoo that she now has because they had to figure out some way to hide her bite mark. Right. And the scarring of the, on her forearm. And so we get a quick glimpse of that in the scene. I was like, ah, good job guys. Like world building exposition built in. And they're, they're doing that thing where they're treating us like, you know, reasonably intelligent.

[00:45:02] Yeah. It looks more like a bird now than a bite. So yeah, they, they did something to it. Uh, there, so her and Tommy are out on patrol duty. I just want to call out the M14 rifle that they're using in the sniper variant. So, uh, they're not shy with ammunition. So they must be, uh, they must be making ammo in Jackson. Like that's something you can do. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:45:28] Or, or at least they have like enough scouting patrols to find plentiful stuff. Scavenging. Right. And I remember in, uh, walking dead, that was a big, big deal. Right. It was, uh, uh, wasn't Negan's, uh, they could, they could do it or somebody was making, Oh no, they found, uh, they found all the makings for it in one episode or something. So I never walking dead. It, uh, at all. No, I, I, I watched like two episodes maybe at first. Oh, and I was like, this isn't for me. Okay.

[00:45:57] And I feel like I saved a lot of my life with that. Yeah, I think you did. I think you, you're fine. You still made it into podcasting because that was one of the shows that bootstrapped a lot of podcasters was dead. So I, I feel no remorse. We do get the name of Alpine being dropped several times in this episode. So this is probably one of those neither confirm nor deny things, but, uh, I did pick up on that name. Okay. Uh, I don't know if you, yeah, you just have to be silent.

[00:46:28] And, uh, the garage, what did you think of Ellie's garage? It's very teenager. But it's a teenager with guns. Yeah. Gun oil and a workbench. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it says this is where Ellie lives, right? Like I don't, I, I think they did a great job. I mean, look, it's very close to the game design, uh, but immaculate job creating it. Really? Is that, is that a, uh, uh, a strong, I didn't realize that. That's right.

[00:46:57] I'd have to go back and like check note for note, but it's very close. It's very close to what they were doing in the game. Yeah. I like that. Um, you'll even, we'll even talk about it, but like towards the end when she's like coming home, uh, and walking past Joel, like that is straight out of the game. The whole, basically the whole dance scene is straight from the game, like shot for shot. Yeah. So they, they did a lot of that as well as adding a lot of character death moments. Okay.

[00:47:24] So the song that she's listening to at one point, well, and she's in the garage is love buzz by Nirvana, which is a 1987 song. So that's going way back. She's pulling up some, some real deep guts there. And we see the, uh, uh, rack of cassettes that she has. And again, I don't know that cassettes would make it that far into the future, but kind of cool, like cool retro, right? You know, photograph, I think phonographs would be better, uh, I'd be a better option

[00:47:53] than set tapes, but I don't know. Unplayed cassettes might be okay. It's really playing them that, that really playing them in heat that really destroy them. Right. And so if you're in, um, if they're not being, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, in a sort of stable environment, you know, but if you're getting a lot of temperature swings and if we don't have electricity widely available, then yeah, I just think they would weather pretty fast as well. So, and they'd be old at that stage anyway.

[00:48:23] Maybe they were, you know what, let's headcanon. They were all in a basement somewhere and, uh, and they were protected from the elements and everybody was fine. There was a Gen Xer who had them, uh, hermetically sealed, uh, along with a bunch of comic books and other memorabilia and, uh, they hit a big stash and now they're on the sort of bootleg trade trade market. Jackson. Cause she does finish their collection in 2003 and they said in 10 years, I'm going to sell this for a fortune. Perfect.

[00:48:53] Can I ask you about the horse shimmer? Is that a confirmable game detail? Yeah, there was, there was a horse shimmer of the game. Okay. Cause she goes up to the horse and it's like, Oh, shimmer. Oh, so. Yeah. This was, this was a horse in the last of us part two. I, that was, yeah, that was, that was Ellie's patrol horse. Okay, cool. So let's talk about Dina a little bit. Like I said, the life taker and heartbreaker.

[00:49:22] Uh, and we get this relationship that is developing between her and Ellie, but she had just broken up with Jesse and she was dancing with another fella at the new year's party. So what's going on there? That's just 19 year old, like live in life, right? Yep. Yep. Yeah. She and Jesse are on and off all the time. And, uh, and now she's like, I'm going to go kiss Ellie in front of him. In front of everybody.

[00:49:51] Now you got to go, is she just making somebody jealous or is she really into Ellie or, or whatnot? Yeah. I loved when they were, uh, out at that, uh, old groceries, uh, that shopping, that grocery store, their interaction, the, the little sign language that they were doing was cracking me the hell up. You know, it's really funny because the wheel of time has this like made in hand talk where the warrior people, the ideal, they, uh, they have made in tune, tune, tune, detrates battle language.

[00:50:22] Okay. Anyway, so wheel of time, uh, you let us have this, can we have this for a moment? Because the show's probably about to get canceled. Could we have this David? Um, please. So, so they have this whole thing and it's very cool. This made in battle talk and, and it's sign language, very serious. Uh, you're like, you could tell jokes that they do all the time, but you know what I mean? And then I see them like miming nonsense in this and it's just making me crack up. Like I'm thinking what, what would Alicia translate this to in, in made in hand talk? Right. Right.

[00:50:52] I love it. And then Ellie's like doing the whole spurting blood out of the neck thing. Right. Right. So good. Like, is that necessary Ellie? Right. And then in her diary, she's writing, don't fuck this up. Don't fuck this up. Don't fuck this up. So she's really falling for Dina. And I think Dina is somebody you could fall for. Yeah. And I love that they brought the diary and this is something that, uh, Ellie's journal is something that when you're playing the game, the more you play, the more it fills up

[00:51:19] and you can go into your menu and read more of her journal and it'll just have like random details. It'll have her thoughts and things like that. It's a really high detailed game. That's really cool. That's really cool. Yeah. All her doodles and everything like that. Yeah. It like fills it up with stuff like that. It looks exactly like, like you saw in the show. So however far you are in the game, it'll, it'll have like entries. Right. So one last thing I wanted to call out about Dina, I don't know if you have anything else that you can say, right? Cause there's a, there's a lot embedded in there other than like, I think she's a great

[00:51:49] character addition and I'm like super psyched to see what goes on with it. But she has a knife. She has a particular kind of knife, which is called a K bar. And that is a combat knife from, uh, I think it was, I was skimming the Wikipedia article earlier today and I think it was a little pre-World War two. I'm not sure if it goes back to one, but this is an iconic knife of the United States Marines.

[00:52:16] The Marines are issued K bars and they are a totem of having served in the Marine Corps in the United States Marine Corps. And that she has one is an interesting detail. And again, with the, uh, M14 rifle that Tommy and, um, Ellie are, uh, shooting up on the, when they're up on that ridgeline, the prop master, and I don't know how much, you know, Druckmann and, um, game or I want to say gaming.

[00:52:45] Um, that's not right. Uh, mazen. Mazen. Thank you. I don't know how much Druckmann amazing are involved in these conversations or if this is props department people and the weapons masters, but they are paying attention to certain details. And that was one that caught my eye. And I was like, oh, that's a really good character moment. That tells me that Dina, even though she does, she may not know the history of the K bar.

[00:53:12] And what it symbolizes, at least in our day and age, but it's a really good knife and it's designed for a purpose and that she has discovered it. And that is the one that she has chosen tells me that she is a badass just as much as a bad badass as, um, as Ellie is.

[00:53:34] And so again, really chef's kiss to those kinds of, uh, production details that extend the characters and the story. Yeah. And also she's a lot more cautious than Ellie. I liked that they put in the, in the recap. I actually watched the recap for this just to, just to see what they would put in. Uh huh. And they put in tests telling Ellie, like, you're not immune from being torn apart. And that's something that Ellie never learned. It's like, you can't just run in just because you can't get infected. Right. Right. You can still get torn up pretty badly.

[00:54:04] Right. Gail, how amazing was it to see Catherine O'Hara? I knew she was going to be in this season. I didn't know as what. Uh huh. And she was a delight and an absolute delight. I mean, did you watch Schitt's Creek? I watched a number of episodes during the pandemic and I, and we've talked about this on many podcasts before cringe. That kind of cringe humor is just, you know, it's, it's not my cup of tea, but I did enjoy it. I did. I did.

[00:54:32] Uh, I did think that the episodes that I watched were funny and it was good. So. Yeah. And, and she's, she's been brilliant for much longer than Schitt's Creek has been on. Like she, you know, Home Alone, all, all those classic movies, Beetlejuice. And she goes all the way back to John Candy and, uh, oh God, what was the Canadian actors troupe? Um, the comedian troupe up there. I'm going to get in trouble with our friends to the North. Elbows up everybody. Um, anyway, it doesn't matter. Nancy is quitting. Second city.

[00:55:02] Second city. That's it. Thank you. Uh, pre sort of, uh, you know, I mean, second city had as much to do with Saturday night lives, early success as did anything because a lot of energy and talent came from second city. So, uh, and so she goes back to that. So I loved that. She knows how to talk about weed. She was like, but to shake and stuff, you know, buds, sticky buds.

[00:55:32] I was like, oh my God, she's speaking my Gen X language. That's how I used to talk about weed in high school. She, you know, I think she could sell anything. I'll always remember her and Schitt's Creek, you know, her daughter goes to her and she goes, why did you down like a handful of antidepressants this morning? And she goes, I was hungry. Like, like she's, she's just so good and everything. But, but here is, you know, I said that, that on the podcast, you know, uh, the Vince Gilligan

[00:55:58] theory of, of comedic actors is what Craig Mazin subscribes to. And here we have it like another comedic actor can just nail a serious role. Go straight into, yeah. And really work the drama. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I felt like this was a little bit of, um, the crossover episode was shrinking. I know you enjoyed that show. I believe you mentioned that, that you had. Uh, yeah. I mean, I haven't watched the whole thing, but I've enjoyed the episodes I've seen so far.

[00:56:28] Yeah. And, uh, she, she sort of goes into modeling the behavior at the same time that it's exposition for the show. And at the same time, it's ramping up drama, dramatic tension because we're like, uh, okay. Is it Eugene or Elliot? I forget what her husband's name is. Uh, Eugene, Eugene. I mean, Joel killed Eugene in a way that sucked, but at the same time is justified.

[00:56:56] So what is all that about? I mean, my, my assumption, and this is, you know, something added to the show. So I'm not even like being cute about it. My assumption is Eugene got infected and so needed to be put down essentially. And, and I assume Joel put down Jean, Eugene, like you would an animal because that's who Joel is. And she saw it and was like, oh my God, I'm never going to get over this. And that is a safe assumption.

[00:57:27] And I am not trusting the show. Like that could work. It could play out for me like that. I mean, just hearing what you're saying about what you're looking forward to in the intro, I don't think you should trust this show. Right. At all. So there's a twist yet to come around this story element, I think, because they spent some time to setting it up.

[00:57:49] When Joel is looking around the house, we see a painting of a cowboy on a horse leading a horse that has no rider behind them. Right. So two riders, you know, two horses, but only one rider. Okay. That's a little sad. Right. So she lost her husband. We see the two pairs of shoes next to each other in the entryway.

[00:58:11] So they did a bunch of stuff to set this up and put some inertia into it. So how this is going to resolve, I think, is going to be part and partial of the overall season. And it's a question of just how far they're going to take. I think it's almost more thematic than anything. Again, the therapist bit is completely show creation.

[00:58:39] I guess they were going to do this in episode one of season one and they decided it didn't really fit. And so they saved this idea for when they were settled in Jackson. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. And I do love how she models the behavior that she wants Joel to exhibit, which is face up to, you know, have courage in the face of your fear and tell the truth that you know is the truth that's eating at you. Right.

[00:59:06] And when he gets that look, and this is another screenshot that I put in the clicker caps on the discord. Yeah, I saw. The look on Pedro Pascal's face of going from that emotionally vulnerable person to then being Joel the monster was stunning. Brilliant. It was sublime.

[00:59:36] Yeah. I was terrified for Joel for a moment. I thought she was going to murder him. But I don't know. I think Joel has enough people trying to murder him right now. He's going to have a bunch more coming right after him in a minute here. Right. Right. Joel is not, he's not a person who, who leaves few bodies behind. No. What did you call him the other day?

[01:00:03] So we've got Pedro Pascal and we're about to have Diego Luna on screen. You called them daddies and I called them zaddies. Which I think that's actually wrong because I think, I think a zaddy is supposed to be a grandpa. Okay. I, I can't keep up. Can someone from Gen Z write in and tell me the proper use of zaddy? Okay. Well, anyway, we're getting, maybe don't. We're, we're, we're getting zombie daddy and space daddy both in the same month. So that's pretty exciting. Yeah.

[01:00:33] Let's do a quick roundup of a couple of other characters and then we can take a break and then talk a little bit about the new year's dance and the grocery store encounter. And then we'll wrap up with Abby and the fireflies. Uh, Tommy, Maria and Benji are thriving as a family and Tommy and Maria are sitting at the center of the council chambers. Yes. And I have now confirmed the definition of zaddy. It is a sexually attractive man, especially an older one who is fashionable or charismatic.

[01:01:04] I think we're good. I think we're good. I think we're good. I think that fits. I think that fits. It's zaddy April. Okay. Yes. Zaddy April. I like that. It's zaddy spring. Somebody's cringing out there so hard. I just want to say that right now. Exactly. Because you got Riz, baby. Uh, I love using slang with my daughter and her friends. Well, like there's several parents that we like antagonize our children with saying like Rizler and that drives them crazy. So love it. It's great.

[01:01:35] Uh, Benji, speaking of the youth, we've got Benji around and, um, uh, Joel is now an uncle. He's a good uncle, you know? He's just, he's just revving them up. Yep. And we've also got Jesse who I think we're going to see a little bit more of. Looks like he's, uh, he's only four years older than the, than the, than the girls, but, uh, he seems to be a little bit higher ranking in some way. Yeah. I mean, it's still, you know, as, as much as they're growing, they're still a small community. Yeah.

[01:02:03] So I think anyone, anyone of fighting age is going to be of high value here. Right. And in this sort of quasi paramilitary sort of, uh, setting. Right. And he seems like to be a pretty good natured guy. Like I, I like him already as a character. So. And I, I think that's interesting because we have now the love interest of Ellie, but her ex is not a bad dude, right? Like, this is not like somebody we can hate and be like, oh, thank God Dina got away from him. And she totally disrespects him by taking his drink. She's like, you're mine.

[01:02:32] I'm drinking your drink. Okay. Now I'm going to go dance with this girl. Right. Right. Like, oh, that was some bad flashbacks right there. So. Oh boy. Not that I had that kind of specific situation, but. I think you had that exact situation. The whole thing at the bar and being young and having lots of fun. David, just say it outright. Say it. Well, honestly, I'd rather sit in smoke weed with Gail. Yeah. Be at the dance. That's right. You can start to heal.

[01:03:03] And I think we've got a lot more characters to come. I mean, we know that Jeffrey Wright's coming up and, and they pulled some surprises on us on season one. And so we don't know yet what there is to come. So I like that. I like that. We've got room to grow into this world and to see some new people. So. Yeah. Any other. Jeffrey Wright, by the way, played the game actor, the game character too. Oh, as well. With motion capture. So that's, that's going to be a cool pull. I love Jeffrey Wright. He's so good. He's great. Yeah. Can't wait.

[01:03:32] Any other characters that you want to shout out real quick before we take a break? I think we've got plenty here. I mean, we, we could keep going, but everybody else is, is so minor that let's, let's move on. Sounds good.

[01:04:02] And we're back. So let's talk a little bit about the new year's dance, the grocery store encounter, and then Abby and the fireflies. Sounds like a band. Uh, the new year's dance. There's, I mean, we've talked about it a little bit. But the only other thing that I was kind of curious about, not curious about, but I thought it was interesting that they put it in there was the slur. Uh, and I can't remember the character's name cause they say his name.

[01:04:32] Uh, and, but Joel like runs into him like a freight train. Yep. Yep. Woo. Uh, it made it more brutal than in the game too. Like in the game, he just like shoves them in this one. He's like, get on the floor. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. And, and something that somebody pointed out, I think on Reddit, I saw is like the world stopped in 2003 here, right? Like gay marriage still wasn't legal. And I think any U S state. Mm hmm. Right. Right. Like we were in a much different place than we are today.

[01:05:01] And when he said that, I was like, wait, what did he say? And I actually backed it up to actually get the, the word. And I was like, Oh, you know, I, I was kind of in a world where like, whatever. Okay. It's a family place, right? You don't want them necking and petting each other up. Fair enough. I get that. And she says, sorry twice. And then that's when he, you know, says that slur. Uh, yeah. It starts off where like, it might be normal. Like he might just be like, stop making out in public. Like anybody.

[01:05:30] And you're like, okay, PDA, maybe he doesn't like PDA. And then he goes, Hmm. Yeah. And he uses the slurs and you're like, Oh no, you're a homophobe. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so that's from the game. That's interesting. Yeah. That's, that's straight. Basically from the time that they get on the dance floor, uh, through that whole sequence is straight from the game, like shot for shot. Right. Even like angle by angle. Wow. Wow.

[01:05:57] So there's a, uh, a shot where Ellie is going into, I'm looking at clicker caps now where she's standing in the room and they have her silhouetted. And then we have the big fairy lights, Christmas lights, whatever, uh, drapery thing in the center of the room and the sort of almost crown like shape and, Oh, just visually gorgeous shot.

[01:06:24] But the thing that, that made me think of was in the grocery store with they're called stalkers. Is that the right? Yeah. That's, that's, that's their game name. And, and here we are, I think we're going with it in the show. And that, and we've seen this a little bit in it with some other kinds of, uh, uh, infected, but it's almost like there's a little crown of fungus coming out of their heads. The clickers have those. Okay.

[01:06:53] Oh, the clickers have those as opposed to what are the, the other ones have the big mushroom things in their heads. Well, that's what I, yeah, no, not that. Okay. Okay. So we're, we're talking about the, the, yeah, no, the, I think all the clickers, have sort of like different amalgamations of fungus. So some of them are more like crown like, and some of them are, are more mushroom looking, but. This is more like a tiara, like not a full headdress, not a whole fascinator, uh, thing. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:07:21] Anyway, this is, this is, yeah, this is a new thing. So visually it looked beautiful. Like, and it made me think of that and think of Ellie and, um, and the infected as well. So, uh, I don't know. I didn't have much else on the, on the dance. Did you? No, no. I, I think, you know, we've speculated before, like, is this a real thing? Is Dina really interested in Ellie? Is she trying to make Jesse jealous? Is this, are they, you know, who knows?

[01:07:49] I, I think Ellie is for sure interested in Dina. Very, very. Cause she's not interested in cat. We know that. No, I, I, oh man, the way she goes, I feel like this must be like a, an experience that a lot of, of gay people have had of like somebody saying like, oh, well there's another gay person. You two must like each other. Like, no, that's not how it works. It's like, same as, as street people is like, you know, you gotta find somebody to vibe with. Yeah. Uh, pretty funny.

[01:08:17] So let's switch over to the grocery store encounter going out on patrol. And I don't know about you, but if I were on patrol duty, recon duty or whatever, I'd be really hesitant to wanting to go out on patrol with Ellie. And Dina is questionable in my book. The fact that they just go off book like that and find their effective, find their bad asses fine. They can, you know, hold their own.

[01:08:46] They're just, you just don't do that stuff when you've got a whole community's life at stake here. So I was really, this whole episode, I was just being a middle-aged dad, just going, oh my God, like stop taking risks. Stop being an asshole about stuff. Yeah. They, well, you don't need a wild card on a mission. You just don't. No, not at all.

[01:09:10] Uh, and cat was kind of useless as, I'm sorry, cat, but you're kind of useless as a patrol leader. I know. It was rough. Yeah. I, I don't, I don't understand what the authority stuff was going on here. She, she did nothing. No. And neither did the other two, uh, on patrol there. So. But I think it's almost like Ellie and Dina are like elites of this community, right? Like they are like. Yeah. Everybody knows them. Everybody respects them. Everybody knows they have their daddy, Joel. And. Yes.

[01:09:40] Like. Yes. I feel like these people are almost like scared to cross them. Hmm. Yeah. Cause otherwise you can get run over by Joel, like a freight train. Right. So that's a good point. And they're bad asses, right? They're legit bad asses. And Jesse even says so. He says something to them, uh, on the side, like, Hey, take this a little bit more seriously. People kind of look up to you. Right. Yeah. That's, that's absolutely true. They, they signal that too. Yeah. Uh, and then I liked that they, uh, we get a little, I think it's foreshadowing, which

[01:10:09] is with the colored flags to let them know, like, you know, uh, what color of the, what the color of the day is, you know, to come back with that you're safe and, um, not, uh, under threat or under dress. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the mini mystery with the bear and the stalker. Is this game stuff or is this something new? The stalkers are in the game. Yeah.

[01:10:39] Um, the, the bear though, the bear is a bear. I think that's new. I think that's, again, I haven't played the game in a couple of years. I think the bear thing is new. I think stalkers are introduced in a much different way in the game. Mm hmm. Um, but yeah, I, I, I also think that we have seen large animals taken down my infected before too, though, even in game, even in season one. So I don't, I don't know why they use that to show that it was like a big deal.

[01:11:05] I think it, for me, it sort of tied into the mystery of what was going on. And I think it builds up, for me, what it was doing was building up the intelligence factor of this particular kind of infected. So maybe they're starting to get some speciation. We're getting some differentiation in the species.

[01:11:35] So we had like a big tank one in, uh, in, uh, where was that in, uh, with Kathleen, uh, it was at Kansas city. Oh yeah. Yeah. And, um, and, uh, with the clickers and in some other kinds. So, you know, I, yeah. The bloater is the one that was in, that was the big one. And I mean, look there, I'm just gonna be honest with you. There were stalkers, maybe not referred to as that in, in game one. And they just didn't put that in season one of this.

[01:12:04] I think they're, they're just kind of. Oh, it's smart doling it out. Yeah. They're, they're, they're spacing out a little bit more. Um, they're making a very big deal about it in the show here. So I don't know what they're doing with it in the show. So, okay. Did the, what did you, did you enjoy the whole sort of encounter in the grocery store? I mean, yeah, I thought, I thought that was great. You know, they're yelling at it, like run at me, like trying to bait it so that I could get them closer, get back in the spray.

[01:12:32] And then it, it hides and you're like, and she goes, oh shit. Like this is not predictable behavior anymore because before now all the infected have been animalistic. Like they have, you can follow the patterns. Yeah. And, and here now you have somebody like thinking. Yeah. And, and trapping you and then like making these weird sounds, not like normal infected sounds, but almost like hurt human sounds. Like child.

[01:13:01] So like, she's like, what is that? You know, Ellie's like, what is that sound? That is not a normal, you know, the, the normal clicker sounds. So. Yeah. Well, well the, the runners, the, the base infected, the like recently infected do also like yell and, and sound like humans. Okay. So that, that part is not as new, but this like whimpering, I think is kind of new. Right. And did you notice that the stalker had no problem with the sunlight?

[01:13:30] Yeah. Yeah. And, and again, they actually added the whole, like, they don't like sunlight into the show. Um, I, they didn't really do a lot with that in the game. I mean, in the, in the, um, in the first season, I thought. Uh. Yeah. We had the one, one definite scene of the sun shifting when they were in Boston and right. Right. Mad of the move. That's what I mean. Like they, I think they don't love it, but like it's not, it's not going to hurt them. Well, this one was like full on in the sunlight. So. Yeah.

[01:13:59] Uh, in the, in that sunbeam. And I thought at first when it, when she's looking at the magazine and then we see the first, uh, little movement on the shelves and the, I went back and did a frame by frame of that. It's sitting there the whole time frozen and you don't notice it until it moves. And I thought it was a cat. I, yeah, I was like, what the hell? And then when we see its face with the bear claw marks across it and the missing nose and stuff, I thought I was like, wow, that looks like a cat.

[01:14:28] I don't know if they were intentionally playing that up, but that's the vibe I was getting. So. Uh, I have a piece of wild speculation here that you are not going to be able to confirm or deny. Yeah. I see it here. I see it. Yeah. And I was curious. It was like, oh, okay. Well, like how do we have a different kind of infected, like a fundamentally different kind of infected here? Not fundamentally. Sorry.

[01:14:57] It's too strong of a word, but a significant difference. And so I started thinking through it. I was doing a little Mr. Spock, you know, doing some speculation and we could have natural evolutionary processes or we could have intentional genetic manipulation by people. And I did some internet reading, you know, I'm not going to call it research, uh, and, uh,

[01:15:25] around questions of evolution and, and, uh, biology in, in fungus. And as far as I could tell that fungi have a, a slower evolutionary tempo compared to a lot of other organisms. And while you could get two or three different kinds of speciations, uh, or you could even have something called horizontal gene transfer, or you could have this, this other thing called

[01:15:54] host, host pathogen dynamics where a host and a, and, and its pathogen share, uh, some genetic materials that, that, uh, the, these fungal creatures could evolve to these different forms so quickly. And this is a new one. May I don't do have we, we have an encounter, like Ellie is saying in that council, we haven't encountered this before. And there's a lot of wise people on that council and they're like, oh yeah, we don't know about

[01:16:24] this. So that's a new thing. So is that normal evolutionary process? Now we know that the game will conceit certain things, gasoline, magazines, you know, uh, cassette tapes. Okay, fine. And the whole premise of the fungus, right? This is a fantasy sci-fi show. It's fine. But are they going to play with the rules of evolution in that and allow for this kind of speciation speciation to happen?

[01:16:51] Or if I could get real tinfoil hat theory, you know, we get, oh, Seattle, there's a dude in Seattle who has resources, you know, did the fireflies, have they been messing with fungus? You know, they've got a research lab. They were studying cordyceps. Could they have intentionally manipulated these fungi things and maybe even bred these as like

[01:17:19] bloodhounds or, you know, using them in some way. Maybe Abby's using them to chase Joel. I don't know. Maybe that's a little too far. That's a little too tinfoil hat, but it's, it's an open question for me. Like, how do we end up with these? So I don't know what you can say or you want to feel comfortable in saying. I think it's fascinating how deep you went down this hole. I, I'm not going to say anything. I know exactly what stalkers are and I will pass. Okay. Fair enough. Good work.

[01:17:48] I had fun doing some internet reading today about evolutionary processes and fungus. I think you evolved through this process. I think I did. So let's talk about, and I'm known for hunting the shadows, right? You know, like I got called out for that before, for around foundation, but Hey, I'll wear that badge proud. Let's talk about Abby and the fireflies.

[01:18:13] So opening shot of, um, uh, of the crew, uh, burying their dad. And I love that. We see there's this long shot and we see Abby standing off to the side of the rest of the crew. Okay. Again, visually telling me everything I need to know and they're burying their dead.

[01:18:39] And we don't really learn why Abby is so emotionally taught, uh, and wound up about this. And this is where I accidentally spoiled myself. I'm not going to say anything. Uh, but I get it from they did. Yeah. And this is what I was saying before. Like they, they tell you basically in the post episode, uh, uh, explanatory material, but like, if you don't want to know, then I'm not going to tell you here. Go watch that. Right. Um, definitely don't Google any of these names. You're going to get so spoiled. My God.

[01:19:10] Right. So we got Owen, Mel, Nora and Manny, as I understand it. And we get a name drop of Isaac. He's the guy in Seattle. Okay. Right. Exactly. And so that they went to Seattle and back and it took him five years. Like that's a lot. Fair enough. I get it. I mean, it's a long distance too, right? It's a way it's not far. I mean, sorry, they got to find Joel. Yeah. Yeah. They have no modern transportation. Nope. Yeah.

[01:19:40] So, uh, and we get this other dominant theme, I think, which is revenge or, and or hate. Yeah. The hate flow through you. Uh, and, and then a sub theme to that, I think is you can't escape your past. Yeah. There was, there was a quote I think I shared with you where Neil Druckmann at one point said like, the last of us one was about love. The last of us two is about hate. Hmm. Right.

[01:20:10] And, uh, we're starting to see that, right? Like we have Gail saying like, I, I hate you. Yeah. We have Abby clearly hating Joel. Nice. Uh, Ellie. Ellie hating. Mm-hmm. Maybe hating, maybe just resenting, you know, in, hating in like a teenager way. Kind of. Mm-hmm. She hates that he's overprotective at the dance. Yeah. We even have the hate of the homophobe, right? Like you've all these different variations on hate. Yeah.

[01:20:40] That's a good point. And Joel even, uh, enculturating Benji into what do we do to monsters? We shoot them. Right. Right. You need to have some, you have to have a little bit of hate in your heart to be able to do that. Yeah. Um, although if I lived in this world, I'd probably teach my kids to do the same, you know? Like. Exactly. You gotta teach them early on that one. That's right. And Abby saying, when we kill him, we kill him slowly. Yep. So, revenge. Revenge.

[01:21:08] She's gonna, she's, she's trying to take joy in this, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you know, you know enough about how she feels. Like, you know, she's a firefly and other fireflies died. You know, someone special to her died in there. Mm-hmm. And they were trying to save their people, right? They're tribalistic in this. We're fireflies. What do we do? We go find other fireflies. Um, and we tried to save them and we couldn't save anybody except ourselves.

[01:21:37] So, there's a lot of that trauma, uh, residual trauma. Yeah. Which we know Joel and Tommy, they were handing out trauma like, uh, candy at Halloween. Yeah. You know? So, uh, I did like that when we see the fireflies approaching Jackson, that at first I was like, are these zombies? Are these infected? And then it was like, oh no, it's, it's Abby and crew. Then I thought it was just raiders.

[01:22:05] And then it was, oh, it's Abby and crew. But they were walking through the forest, very zombie-like to me. Like there was a clear signaling, uh, that they were intending us to get a moment, a sense of a moment of that. So, uh, I, I don't know if they're just, you know, they're just having a little, they're just pushing some drama or if that has any actual, um, real world consequence. But I, I just appreciated the way they, they shot that whole scene.

[01:22:33] And then again, the book ending where we had Joel and Ellie, where Joel tells the big lie. And now we have Joel's past coming back to get him. And it's going to have dire consequences for everyone in Jackson, not just Joel. Yeah. We'll see what happens. So. All right. I didn't want to have anything else. Do you, uh, you want to share any other thoughts or are you pretty good?

[01:23:02] I mean, my, again, like I am so like hamstrom here. Like I cannot, I cannot say most of my thoughts. Uh, it'll be a lot of fun. Maybe I'll do a spoiler section with somebody mid season or something like that. That'd be fun. Yeah. I know Brandon was going to start playing it like a month ago, so I don't know how far he is. So we'll see. We'll see where we're at with that. Right. And I know Alicia actually has watched all the cut scenes of part two. She didn't play it, but she watched all the cuts. Okay.

[01:23:31] So she'll, she'll be able to talk about it too. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You should definitely get some, uh, get some spoiler, uh, action, uh, thrown in there. Boy, I'm trying to think of, uh, spores, spore lore. No. Yeah. I don't know. Like maybe that's a little too silly. You're fine. You're good. You're good. I think that's great. All right. What do we have going on, on the network? We've already talked about wheel of time and, and, or, and then we're not even for main lore hounds feeds.

[01:23:59] We're not even looking past and, or at this point, we're going to be exhausted. And doctor who everyone always forgets about doctor who I always forget about doctor. I apologize. It's a fun new season. I have to say, I think people should watch it. It's, you know, if you're watching and, or you already have Disney, it's on Disney. Right. Uh, I had to listen to your guys podcast cause you had Ian on. So, you know, yeah, we had Ian from captain's pod. And, um, the, the first episode we were talking about it on the podcast, like it was actually a really good onboarding episode of this season. You could, you could start watching doctor who this season. Oh, wow. Okay.

[01:24:29] Just straight. Never. Yeah. I mean, doctor who has always been like that, like easy on board because it's, it's like this adventure of the week kind of thing. But I think the last episode that they did is season two, episode one was like perfect onboarding. Nice, nice, nice. And beyond that, we're not even going to talk. So, uh, what do we have going on with the rest of the network? I think Alicia doesn't have anything going on with Wolf shift dust or star Wars cannon timeline because she's been more than full time on wheel of time. Yeah. She's got Dune coming on. We'll shift us at some point. Okay.

[01:25:00] Uh, and then I know Aaron just did Ponyo on radioactive ramblings. Mm-hmm. And we had him on for the white Lotus coverage that we did. And so there's two episodes out about a white Lotus. I'm too, I'm too sick to do it. Oh, that might, that might, that's the, yeah, yeah, yeah. The music. Yep. Yeah. Um, yeah. And, uh, properly Howard, I think coming back with a new season soon. Do we know? Yeah. I think they're going to do a Kevin Bacon, uh, season. That's fun. Uh, which should be fun. And they did it.

[01:25:29] Logan's run, right? Yes. And they tied it in. They related it to, uh, the wrap up of severance because of course we covered severance with them. So they have, uh, a podcast out covering, recapping the season and that one with Logan's run. And that was a very funny episode. Very cool. And, uh, what's going on with nevermind the music? They're just doing their thing. They had a really great one with, uh, uh, tears for fears was really good.

[01:25:57] But it was, it was a kind of a quintessential nevermind the music podcast because it's a song from, uh, uh, songs from the big chair, which is a reference to a psych psychology, the big chair, sitting in the big chair and tears for fears, uh, all psychology. So both Mark and Nicole had so much to talk about in that episode. That was really good. And, um, I think they're getting close to wrapping up their, all the pre material,

[01:26:22] the stuff that they had prerecorded and I, I, I hear Mark talking about the next season. They're starting to get prepared for that. So, but they're, you know, every, every week go check them out. Very nice. All right. And you could always check out rings and rituals if you want more Tolkien stuff. Yep. Well, I think that's it for our show notes. You want to give the thank yous? I can do that real quick. To our discord server boosters.

[01:26:49] These are folks who donate their nitro bits on discord, which like, that sounds like those are English words, but I don't even know what they mean myself. But, uh, these are folks who basically make the server a better place for our community to gather and have a virtual water cooler. So Aaron K. Tiller, the thriller, dork, the ninjas, do 71, Athena, Adjalea, Tina, Lestu, Nancy M. Ghost of Perdition and Radioactive Richard. Thanks for being great stewards of our community.

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[01:28:03] Uh, Brian P, SC, Peter O H, Patina W, Adam S, Nancy M, Doove 71, Brian 8063, who is also our blog lore master, our lore brarian. Uh, he is the editor in chief of our blog, which is an open submission policy. Uh, so if you've got something to say, send us an email to editor at the lore hounds.com. And we would love to review your stuff and put it on our website.

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[01:29:00] and forever last but lost somewhere to the mists of time, Adrian, we miss you. We hope you're well. And thank you to everyone who listens. Thank you to everyone who subscribes. We will see you next week for episode two coverage. John, thanks. Bye everyone. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact.

[01:29:30] Get early and add free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. The Wheel of Time turns and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend.

[01:29:54] In one podcast called The Lorehounds by Some, a weekly recap with tons of analysis, two Wheel of Time superfans will lead you through a world of powerful magic, tricky prophecies, and cutthroat politics. Join me, John, and my co-host Alicia for weekly coverage of season three by searching your podcast app for the Lorehounds. Dovyeandi se tovas again. It's time to roll the dice.