The Last of Us - S02E02 - Through the Valley

[00:00:01] Hey Mark, I was listening to Paramore the other day and it really made me think about the amygdala and the limbic system. You just made those words up, didn't you? What, Paramore? We're the Nevermind the Music Podcast, where one musician and one psychologist talk songwriting and the mind, one song at a time. We'll hear everything from Green Day and OutKast to Stevie Wonder and Dua Lipa. And we mostly try to stay on topic. Except for when we don't want to. Nevermind the Music, wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:00:49] Welcome to the Lore of Us Podcast, where the Lorehounds, your guides to the fungal apocalypse. I'm Jon. And I'm David. This is our coverage of Episode 2 of Season 2, Through the Valley of The Last of Us on HBO. We're going to start with our hot takes and then we will get into a discussion of the episode, sort of on a thematic-based discussion.

[00:01:09] If you want to get in touch with us and let me know why cassette tapes would be completely viable in the post-apocalyptic future, send email to tlou at thelorehounds.com. You can also join us on our Discord. We have a lively and fun Discord. Great, great group of people there. Great mod team and a lot of chatter and discussion about all the shows we're covering.

[00:01:37] But we have a whole setup just for The Last of Us. And so each episode has its own little channel. So you can join the real-time conversation there. Well, we're here. You can also support the podcast and get ad-free episodes by going to the link tree in the show notes and clicking on Supercast or Patreon. Those recurring subscriptions will get you all of our content, including a bunch of other shows that we're doing. You want to highlight a couple quick things, David?

[00:02:07] Well, you guys are just wrapping up on the Wheel of Time. And so we had a lot of bonus material for that. We had a ton of bonus material for Severance as well. And we are starting Andor this week as the day of recording. We are on Andor Eve. That's right. And I posted a GIF on Blue Sky today of one of the Matrix agents dodging bullets.

[00:02:34] And I'm like, that's me trying to avoid all the pre-season reviews and things like that. I'm just like a complete embargo. I need to go in fresh. I need this. So we're doing a squadron-based coverage for Andor. We're going to have episodes out for every... We're going to have podcasts out for every episode of television.

[00:02:57] And John and you and Alicia and myself, we're each going to take one episode a week. And then we're going to have rotating co-hosts with us. And then that way we can cover the entire season without driving ourselves into the ground. We've thwarted Darth Vader and his evil plans. No! David, you are the show-only watcher. I'm the game player. I think that's all people need to know. We've gone into that more in depth. Correct.

[00:03:26] But this was your first time seeing... Abby play golf. Abby play golf. Abby's going golfing. I just... I've been waiting for a long time for this episode. Ever since you started on your Joel is a monster kick, I go, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. Just stick with me, buddy. So I'm going to let you do your hot takes first here. Okay. Abby's a monster? Abby's a monster. Okay.

[00:03:56] I feel very foolish after... Well, don't. Because I was 2-2 until I played the game. No, no, no. I meant from last episode. So last episode, we should caveat to you were ill and you were not well. Uh-huh. And I was traveling. I was in the basement of a relative's house. And so... And of course, I'm, you know, trying to cram the episode. I'm trying to, like, make content. So I put on my tinfoil hat and I had all kinds of crazy takes about all kinds of stuff.

[00:04:25] And I just let you run. You did. You just gave me all the... But aren't you glad I did? You just gave me all the... And then my only... I think one of my main assessments from episode one was the fight scene that we open up with, with Ellie, you know, doing some combat training. And the whole sort of don't pull your punches, sucker punch, you know, pull them in closer, all of that kind of stuff. Well, they did it. You know, that's what I was predicting was going to happen with this season.

[00:04:55] And I was not predicting it for episode two. And I was not at all expecting that Joel was not going to be with us anymore. So it was shocking that 56 minutes went fast. And they pulled it, they set up a bunch of expectations and then they subverted a bunch of stuff. And it was really great. I was continually...

[00:05:21] I literally, at points of the episode, I was like, I don't know what's going to happen. I have no predictive ability with this plot. I mean, you watch enough television, you pick up enough stuff, you can just sort of naturally predict some things. And this thing was not predictable in any way. I guess karma's a bitch. You know, Joel, like you got it in spades. Now we have Abby versus Ellie. That's going to be really interesting.

[00:05:51] I was very cold watching this episode. I was, you know, somewhere between Hoth and Hardhome. I was like, uh, zombies, frozen zombies, terrible. I do have some technical nits. I'm mostly going to shut up about them. I just can't believe that Jackson didn't know about the lodge up the hill from them. And their radio is set up really bottom. I don't necessarily think they don't know. I think it's just there's a lot of space around them. And like, they're not going to record every single thing around them. That's a great position for, no, you would.

[00:06:20] Like they're that organized. We could argue about it, but to me, it's a tactical weakness that they weren't occupying that thing up there and actually had, you know, some line of sight radio communication. That's a great listening post up there. But anyway, I'm not going to harp on about it because none of it really matters for the story. And in the story of this episode and the story for the rest of the season, uh, none of those

[00:06:46] technical details really matter because what's important is the fact that they killed, they killed, uh, they killed old Ned. They killed old Ned. This is, I said this to the discord, like this is a Ned Stark level death. Yeah. And when I tell you the fandom, when this game came out, had so much rage. Really? It was, it was bad, man.

[00:07:13] It was like Reddit was a flame. People were not happy. They were like, I played this game for Joel and now he's dead and I can't play as him again. And I'm upset. They did not want to play as Ellie. They did not want to play as anybody else. They just wanted to play as Joel. And a lot of people like to this day are like last of us, one amazing game. Last of us to shit game. Wow. And I completely disagree with that.

[00:07:41] I think both games explore the theme of what the things you'll do for love, you know? Cause Abby, as much as you want to hate her right now, did that out of what love for her father and the fact that, that her father was mercilessly killed by this monster. I'm going to, I'm going to let you have Joel as a monster now because, because now he's, he's gone. He's been put down. Any other hot takes? Um, no, not really.

[00:08:10] I think, uh, I've got some notes for the episode. I was joking with you like, Oh, this is going to be a quick episode, right? Cause it's just one giant set piece and you're like, ah, so there's, there's a lot that I enjoyed about this episode. There's a lot of humor. Um, and yeah, it was just shocking. Just absolutely shocking. You, and we can talk about it. Let's save it for when we get into the actual episode.

[00:08:35] I just feel free because this is the big secret of the second game. Like that, the set, the premise of the whole second game is based on this event, right? This is the inciting event incident, but I couldn't tell you that until, until it happened. And now everybody knows this is the journey we're on folks gather around, hold hands. We're on a journey with Ellie now and we're going to see what happens. Yeah. It's going to be wild. It's going to be wild. And we're going to go places.

[00:09:04] I think we're, yeah, we're, we're on the move. Something that I wanted to say is I see a lot of, wow, that was incredible television. But now I'm like, you know, I see people saying, I don't know how I'm going to keep watching without like the levity of their relationship. Right. And what I'll say to those people is without spoilers, the show and the game have always

[00:09:29] had a theme of there are moments of beauty, moments of love, moments of relationship in this post-apocalyptic horrible world. And it's not going to let that go just because Joel's dead. I think that's interesting because I was really grooving on Jesse this episode. I loved the banter when he wakes her up. That was really funny. He was really funny. Last episode, Dina was hilarious, especially last episode.

[00:09:58] I rewatched most of the episode before episode two aired last night. So like I kind of, you know, back to back. And the scene of them in the supermarket place, you know, and doing the sign language about, you know, going to kill the infected was hilarious. Like she is so funny. The casting is so perfect for her character. Not that I know from the game or anything, but I'm just vibing with the actor's portrayal. I'm picking up on the chemistry between Dina and Ellie.

[00:10:27] I'm picking up on the chemistry with Jesse. So we got this little sort of triangle thing. Even Abby's crew. Well, I was, I was buying all the chemistry. I was buying all the characters. So there's a lot of rich storytelling, I think, yet to be done with these two sets of characters. Yeah. And, and knowing what they did to us, notice the victim language that I'm using here, victimized by season one.

[00:10:55] And the journey that we went on, the moments of humor that I remember the, the older couple that they came across before they crossed the river of death. Like that was Graham Green, who was the actor. I forget the, the actor, the, the wife's name. That was hilarious. Obviously the Frank and Bill and Frank episode was just incredible, just beautiful, completely unexpected. Yeah. And a show edition, right?

[00:11:24] Like completely changed that. And, and this, this episode also added a huge plot line. There was no attack on Jackson in the game. Okay. They just added that whole sequence. And I thought one, it was better than anything in game of Thrones in terms of zombie fights. Interesting. I think that was what the long night should have been. Okay. You know, like we, we never really got that cool of a zombie fight in game of Thrones. Mm-hmm.

[00:11:48] Uh, and then secondly, it added to the, they, they did it in a smart way because it added to why Joel was off his game. It added to Joel is distracted because his home is burning. Ah, right. And he wasn't picking up on the vibes. Yeah. He's not going to question. Yeah. He's an armed group of people up in this. Right. Right. He's going to turn his back on them while they're taking care of Dina. Mm-hmm. All these mistakes that Joel wouldn't normally make. That's interesting. I didn't pick up on that.

[00:12:17] He's staring at burning Jackson. Mm-hmm. He's worried about his brother. He's worried about if Ellie is still there. Mm-hmm. I think it makes so much more sense. That's a really good point. You know, Alicia posted an interesting comment on Blue Sky today about, and maybe this, I'm not sure what she was referring to specifically because she didn't actually name the show.

[00:12:40] I'm assuming it was Wheel of Time related, but she was making a general comment, and I don't want to misspeak about her meaning for her herself. She'll blue sky at you. Don't worry. But the thing that I was taking away from it and the kind of back and forth that we got into was around the Shippey test. Mm-hmm.

[00:13:04] And this whole idea, Tom Shippey, who's a famous Tolkien scholar and gave a speech, which you can go if you search for medium and message Tom Shippey, S-H-I-P-P-E-Y, you'll find his, there's a blog post on the college where he gave the speech. And there's an audio file you can download, and there's also a transcript.

[00:13:28] But he talks about this idea of the medium and the message, and he's doing it in relation to the first Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings movie, where they had to chop and change a bunch of stuff in the adaptation of the movie relative to the book. We know this, this is a thing that happens, but he was able to put a framework around it, which is really interesting, and we like to call it the Shippey test, which is,

[00:13:52] did the core message of the original author, the intent of the original author, was that delivered regardless of whatever changes are needed to make a teleplay, you know, the filming, the, you know, all of the production details,

[00:14:11] to make an actual movie or TV show work and make sense from a storyline, you make changes, and are those changes, do they still deliver the original intent of the author? And Alicia was saying something akin to that she's appreciating, again, I want to be careful about characterizing, but like, it's okay to go further in a way.

[00:14:40] She was like, she was kind of enjoying, you know, further, wider, more, bigger adaptations, and I was like, oh, that's interesting. I hadn't really thought of it in that way, and it really made me think about this episode, how much is deviated from the original drama of the show, or I mean, of the game, and again, they did it in season one.

[00:15:05] And if you can pull off these really, really wide changes from the original source material, you know, more power to you as a writer and showrunner in the whole production, because it's high stakes, right? The further you get away from the source material, the further you're pulling, you're messing with fan expectation, especially if it's well-known and well-loved particular piece of material.

[00:15:35] And if you do it wrong in the day of the internet, right, in the day of Reddit, you know, you're never going to hear the end of it. And so I think it's interesting, I think it's just an interesting frame for, a frame question for this episode and this season, how wide was the deviation from the original story, the original game story to this on-screen adaptation? And you're saying there's a whole new sequence that didn't even, or same with Frank.

[00:16:05] Frank and Bill, right? Yeah. Wide, wide stories. But it's really moving the whole story forward every time they do it. I think that's right, but at the same time, they're keeping the core of the character moments, and in a lot of ways, enhancing that core, right? They are. This is a successful adaptation. Adding that whole Jackson fight makes Joel's motivations make more sense. It also develops Tommy and Maria a lot better, which they were not very developed at this point in the game.

[00:16:43] Mm-hmm. Ellie is on the floor next to him. Witness his death. Just begging him to get up. Right. I think that they couldn't change that, right? Mm-hmm. Like, that was so core to what that character moment needed to be. But they did change some things. Like, they, you know, why are we getting this deep into that scene? Let's get right into the episode breakdown, and then we'll take a break after we do the first set of scenes. So, Abby and friends is my first section.

[00:17:10] In her dreams, Abby pleads with herself not to open the door to her father's corpse. She awakens with her friends who try to convince her to abandon her hunt for Joel once they see how sophisticated Jackson is. She goes on a watch and falls into a pile of infected corpses, awakening an army underneath. She runs from them, barely escaping with the help of Joel, who finds her and rescues her with Dina.

[00:17:38] So, it's interesting to me that they went straight into, I mean, this episode, I did not see this coming at all, right? This whole episode I didn't see coming. Nobody did. Look, I want to tell you, you see it coming more in the show than in the game. Mm-hmm. You don't know anything about Abby's backstory, really, at this point in the game. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:05] By the time she kills Joel, you think, was this like a Raider group that he pissed off? Like, because he always said he would be on both sides of the Raiders in the first season, in the first game. So, like, you have even less context for Abby in the game at this point. And I think it was smart to bring the context more up front because it makes you a little bit more sympathetic for Abby. And it makes her a more complex character. Sure, and then you want that dramatic tension increasing. Right.

[00:18:32] Because if you're going to spend the whole second half, the whole back half of this season, back half, I mean, we're just starting at the season. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, if you make the rest of the season about, you know, this next level conflict. This, by the way, this conflict is spanning two seasons. Wow. Like, the second game, they are splitting up into two seasons at least, I said. Whoa. Okay. Which I think is right. It's a lot longer than the first game. There's a lot more ground to cover. Okay, literally. Yeah.

[00:19:01] I just wanted to put that out. Right. Jackson to Wyoming or Jackson to Seattle on foot is a long way. Yeah. So. Yeah. Maybe on horse. We'll see. Yeah. Well, you know what I mean. You know, we're not hopping on a airplane here and flying across.

[00:19:16] So, that this fact that it was Joel and Dina that she sees, it's not, like, there's no sense of probability or improbability. It's just one of those things that happens in life. I remember one time being on a trip with a group and we're getting off plane. We're in a very remote place. We're, you know, in a completely different continent on the small airstrip, on the small little place.

[00:19:46] And as we're getting off the planes, some of the people getting on the plane know one of the people in our group. And they're, like, besties from, you know, years before or something. And they haven't seen each other in a little while. But there we go. In this random place in the world, you know, you meet people that you know or have connections to. Like, the fact that that's Joel, it made sense to me. It didn't make nonsense. You know what I mean? It's, you know, is it improbable?

[00:20:15] Maybe, but not that improbable. It's not that improbable. Like, he goes, I'm sure this guy's constantly out on patrol. He likes the action. Mm-hmm. Well, it just doesn't even matter. Just like, you know, I mean, her plan is dumb. Yes, it is. Oh, we're going to capture a patrol. She just lucks the fuck out here. Completely. There is no, like, Abby is no tactical genius here. Mm-mm-mm. Not at all.

[00:20:40] And I forget the name of the guy who is the tactical, who has that sort of, he looks like another actor, like a famous actor. And I can't think of who it is. I don't remember who was doing the tactical speaking. It was either Manny or Owen. I think those are the only two guys with them. Right. I think it must be Owen. Owen is the one she's closest to. Yeah, yeah. It's him. It's him. And he's sort of the more the brain, they're setting him up to be the more tactical brains of the operation. Manny is more impulsive.

[00:21:09] He wants to, like, hit Eli. And they're like, no, no. I do like the fact that, well, this is jumping ahead a little bit, but, you know, you get shot, you get kicked in the gut. It's like that. It hurts, and it knocks the wind out of you. There's no 10-minute fight here where you're still duking it out. Like, somebody kicks you when you're down like that, knocks the wind out of you. I'm sorry. You know, you're down for a while. So, I like the realism of the fight. Who's getting kicked? You were talking about Joel later?

[00:21:38] Yeah, I'm jumping ahead. You're jumping ahead, man. You're keeping me on my toes. I got to please you. Sorry about that. That's all right. So, the thing about this group, though, is interesting, is that they clearly have paramilitary training. You know, they mention a FOB. And a militia. They say they're part of a militia. Yeah. They say they're part of a militia, and then they use this terminology, FOB, FOB. It's a forward operating base. It's like a base in front of a base kind of thing.

[00:22:08] Owen has a good tactical sense about him in terms of analysis. When they all wake up, they're all like, oh, shit, shit, shit. You know, they realize the stakes. And they're – but the portrayals were all really good, too, because it wasn't that over-the-top, oh, I'm in the military. Yes, sir. No, sir. You know, it just felt very natural. It felt like these people were together for a long time. Yeah.

[00:22:37] But all around, the acting and the portrayal felt very natural to me. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. And we have got this new faction now, so they're no longer Fireflies. W-L-F. They are W-L-F. Mm-hmm. I know what that means. I'm not going to tell you. Do not, and I'm not going to Google it. Stay tuned. Because I will be badly spoiled if I do. Yep.

[00:23:00] So, this whole thing with these armies of infected, like, how are they here? How are they moving? I just – it's kind of breaking my brain a little bit that they – their patrol – like, these – I don't know. I just don't know how to understand why there's a big pile of infected just rumbling under the ground here. But whatever.

[00:23:29] I don't think they need to eat. I think they can just kind of fall down and be there for a while until they're awoken. Yeah, but how did they get there? I mean, this is right outside of Jackson. This is on a two-person patrol in Jackson. You know, this isn't even like a patrol in Forest or something. I think they do a little bit more exposition in the game where they're like, you know, the hordes of infected will, like, migrate when they can't find food. Like, they'll run together. So, this could be like they were migrating and they got buried in the snow.

[00:23:56] Yeah, they seemed like they were at the bottom of an avalanche, kind of. Yeah, maybe that's what happened, right? Yeah. And then enough of them survived. But then underground, it's sending out these, you know, these seeking tendrils. Yeah. Did you know that they shot in a real blizzard? I feel so sorry for these extras who were buried in the snow and then had to, like, erupt out and go running as fast as they could. Yeah, but this was no fake snow. Like, they shot in a blizzard. It's in the – I mean, I would recommend people honestly don't watch the after episode stuff.

[00:24:26] Okay. If you don't want to be spoiled because they're a little loosey-goosey with that compared to a lot of other stuff. That's good to know. But they did talk about it being a real snowstorm where they're shooting the battle and they're shooting the Abby and Joel scenes. No wonder it looked so convincing. I was like, what? I was like, damn, you guys really went for it. But then there was some iffy CGI at one point when the bodies were erupting. But then I was just like, I don't care. I didn't even notice. I was so into it. Yeah, it wasn't so great.

[00:24:57] The fence scene, though, my God, that was terrifying. Straight out of the game. I had no clue how that was going to resolve. I was like, oh, man. Yeah, she could have been gone real quick. And yeah, that made me feel really claustrophobic. My God. The jump scare completely got me. You know, when they all start hitting the fence as she's going down that little side thing. Because I was totally expecting them from the other side. Right? You know, suddenly they're like, bam.

[00:25:22] And it's terrifying because you've got the hole in the fence and they're crawling through and you can't really turn around. Ah. Yeah. And then once one is on you, it's all you can do to, you know, defend yourself. And then having a .357 go off in your ear next to your head. You know, that is, I like how they made her ring for just a second. Yeah. When she's sort of in shock after Joel shoots the infected off of her. But I like that. Are you good? Are you bit?

[00:25:52] Let's go. Like, but you're ringing because when that, the front of the muzzle goes off next to your face. Yep. You're going to know it. Right? You know, so that was good. It's such a good introduction to Abby. I know we got her introduction a little early. But I mean, you know, I found this out too. Caitlin Dever, who plays Abby, her mother died and she went to the funeral three days before starting shooting. Oh, man.

[00:26:21] And so she's using that. Yeah. You know she's using that in these scenes where she's talking about losing her father and all that. And I mean, respect to her for being able to translate. My God. Yeah. That's tough. All right. Let's take a break and let's get back and follow up with our friends.

[00:26:57] We're back to catch up with Ellie and Jesse. Jesse wakes up Ellie for patrol duty. She asks to go with Joel, but he's already left after getting an apology from Seth along with some steak sandwiches. Ellie and Jesse get caught in a blizzard and shelter in place at Eugene's Marijuana Emporium. When they learn Joel and Dina are missing, they go on a rescue mission. Jesse, I said this before, but Jesse is totally cracking me up.

[00:27:24] I love his joie de vivre. I love his ability to take an awkward emotional situation and just give Ellie complete shit about it and have fun at the same time. And his last little line of like, you know, the last little thing he says was, it is fucked up that you did that though, right? Yeah. That was a really great little tease. He's great.

[00:27:48] They incorporated him more in this than they did in the game at this point. I believe it was, and somebody could write it and correct me because it's been a little while since I played the game. I believe it was actually Joel and Tommy together, not Joel and Dina. And then I think Joel and Dina were, I'm sorry, Ellie and Dina were together. Okay. And that's how they both end up over there. And so Jesse wasn't really involved. But I like that they're incorporating Jesse more this early. They, they're doing a lot of really smart, like we want people to get to know this character and it's TV.

[00:28:17] So they're going to have less time with the character. So let's bring them in earlier. Again, making those shippy test changes that not only deliver, but actually make the story better for the medium. So that's very cool. So the, I thought too, that that argument that Jesse has with Ellie, where Ellie is saying, look, our, our, you know, my relationship with Joel is complicated. It always sort of will be.

[00:28:45] And, but we're still Joel and Ellie. So like whatever you see on the surface, that may be true, but also understand that in our core, you know, we're, we're still, we still have this bond. Yeah. And that is all really great emotional sucker punch set up for what happens at the end of the episode. Especially because they never quite make up for this spat. Exactly. Right? Exactly. I mean, that's tough. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:15] And so she's going to be carrying this. So they said, I think, and if you think about it, the efficiency at which they set up the relationship, the current state of the relationship between Joel and Ellie, just in episode one. We are very quickly into this. Oh, you know, it's difficult. The whole thing with the therapist, all of that stuff. So that when we do, when, when Ellie does lose Joel, it has that much more of a punch. Right.

[00:29:45] Yeah. Yeah. And of course I like Jesse being the, you know, the instigator, I should say here. Mm-hmm. But also he does want Ellie to grow up a little bit. Right. I mean, the way that they have this, this interaction with Seth, I thought was really interesting. Maria's like, we can't have beefs in this community because this is a small community. We can't just have people walking around with beefs. And Ellie's such a brat about it. I mean, look, she has no obligation to forgive him.

[00:30:12] Like he, he used a slur and, and, you know, it's going to take some time to heal that at the very least. But, but it's really interesting that Jesse's like, yeah, I'll take the sandwiches. But I had a note somewhere and I don't see it in here, but yeah, I was going to say that I really liked how they handled the Seth situation. Yeah. And I think, again, it goes back, it's really interesting.

[00:30:39] They're, they're doing some very mature emotional modeling stuff. Like with Catherine Ahara last episode, how she explains to Joel about her and how she's feeling about Eugene and the death of Eugene. And then she, she models the process though. Right. And Seth models the process. He goes, he, he recognizes the, you know, he apologizes for the, the offense.

[00:31:09] He recognizes the, the depth of it. Like, it's not something I should even be thinking. And I'm, I'm sorry about it. And here's some sandwiches in the good faith effort to say, I want to, you know, have a good relationship. And I promise that I won't be doing that anymore. And, and it was really a very mature situation. And Ellie's a complete brat about it. You know, she could have at least said, thank you. Yeah.

[00:31:37] I mean, look, again, I don't want to say like, she's obligated to accept the apology because no, she's not. Like he, he said something really hurtful. Yeah. But he's, but he's actually honestly apologizing here. Yeah. But you're under no obligation to accept that apology for something vile. I, I. Yeah. But how do you ever, where is grace? Where is, where is, where, where do you, where is repair? Where is restoration? Where is. Well, that's, that's. Yeah. Worldview. And there's other worldviews, right?

[00:32:02] Yeah, but that, that, that, that's a closed door for, if, if somebody's coming honestly to it and is being very authentic about it, you don't, it doesn't mean you have to be friends with them. But at least you can acknowledge the fact that they've, they've recognized the wrong and are trying to restore. I think Ellie, look, I, I probably would have done so, but I think Ellie is within her rights to reject the apology and to say, you know, I, here's what she really should.

[00:32:32] I would have done is just say, look, that was really messed up. I'm not ready to reconnect here. Well, nobody's asking for a reconnection, but she at least needs to acknowledge the good faith effort. You're, you're, you're, you're putting the onus on the victim here, I think. No, absolutely not. Absolutely not am I putting the onus on the victim. He made a good faith effort in a constructive, restorative justice type situation, and she threw it back in his face. He acknowledged the fact that I shouldn't even thought that.

[00:33:02] He's making a good faith effort. Who's going to benefit from accepting the apology? She will. The community will. Because now she's holding, she's holding on to the hurt and she's, I'm not saying she's. It's not a victim blaming thing, but if we're going to move past, if we're going to like restorative justice wise, move forward from here. You have to at least acknowledge the effort that he made.

[00:33:32] Okay. I, I, I think we may have to disagree on this one. Okay. I think, I think maybe we, uh. Because then what do you end up with? What, what I would do personally is different than what I would obligate someone else to do. And I, I don't think I'm willing to obligate Ellie to accept the apology at this point. Okay. Because then you just end up with a continued fracture in the community. I think, I'm not saying that she has to be friends with him.

[00:33:56] I know, but I, I just think that people who have been wronged do not owe the, an apology mostly serves the apologizer. Hmm. No, I would disagree with that, but. All right. All right. I, I, I do think an apology mostly serves the apologizer. Okay. Uh, I, I think we, we, we're coming from two different points on that. Um, and I, I just don't think that Ellie owes him absolution. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm.

[00:34:22] I, I, I do think that there is something to be said for like, no, you did something really fucked up. Now go sit in it and think about it for a while and better yourself. You are responsible for bettering yourself. He did. You know, after a while, maybe things will cool down, but I'm, I don't want to connect with you right now. Okay. You didn't, you didn't completely change your life overnight. I'm sorry, but he did not completely change his life overnight. No, and that's fine.

[00:34:46] You, you give him space though to, to live into that promise of not continuing to hold that view. Okay. How is he going to, otherwise you, otherwise you bought, that person is boxed into that point of view by everyone else forever. There's no space for grace. There's no space to allow somebody to move through past that. If you, if you never forgive them.

[00:35:15] I'm not saying, I'm not saying never forgive them. I'm just saying the morning after I'm not going to obligate Ellie to go be like, yes, sir. Because of that heartfelt apology, you are no longer homophobic. Good day, sir. Well, okay. Well, anyway, we should probably move on. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Look, we're not going to agree on this one. That's okay. That's okay. This is, this is going to be the next great debate on the feedback. Isn't it? Hey, uh, engagement, right? Okay.

[00:35:45] Um, what else we got in this scene? Uh, Eugene's backstory a little bit. Eugene being a firefly. Eugene being the, the weed master of, of the. I was wondering why Catherine O'Hara knew she was extolling the virtues of his weed. Yeah. It was a thing. I think it was a thing in the game too. I think he died of old age though. Okay. Uh, that he was the weed guy. Right.

[00:36:09] And we don't ever get full completion on the story. Like we're, we're still learning more about that. Joel put him down, quote unquote, put him down and that it was not a, a great situation all around. Yeah. But we still don't know the reason why it happened. They're still obfuscating that. Yeah. And, um, and he was a Vietnam vet.

[00:36:39] We learned that he had a war history. Uh, he knows how to make a gas mask bong. He does know how to make a gas mask bong. That's pretty good. Have you ever smoked out of a gas mask bong? I, have I seen what? Have you ever smoked out of a gas mask bong? I, I reserve my right to remain silent. And, uh, no, I actually haven't. I haven't. I'm, I'm just joking. But I've seen one, but I've never smoked out of one. Anyway.

[00:37:04] Anyway, um, I, I did enjoy this whole, you know, Ellie dynamic of like, yeah, look, you're probably going to run Jackson one day, but right now you don't. So I'm taking the weed. That was really funny. And then I got real, uh, uh, Han Solo, uh, Empire Strikes Back vibes when he gets on the Tauntaun and he tells the deck officer and he says, I'll see you in hell as they're both writing off.

[00:37:29] I, I just loved the energy and I loved, um, that part of the relationship between, uh, Jesse and, uh, Ellie in that moment that they, they just knew what they were doing and they were, you know, they were all about it. And yeah, it was just cool. As much as they are bratty teenagers together, they still will do the job. Right. They're still effective operators. Yeah. Yeah. Really good stuff here. I love, I love everyone, you know, where, where, you know, you said this episode flew

[00:37:59] by for you. This episode actually took forever for me because I knew it was coming and I was feeling anxious the entire time. Every moment I'm like dreading the moment. So let's move on to Jackson with rumors of intelligent infected and an increase in sightings. Tommy and Maria remind the people of Jackson of the plan basements and roofs later, a worker trips the infected route monitoring system causing the army of infected to attack Jackson during the fight.

[00:38:27] Tommy lures bloater away from Maria and barely kills it with a flamethrower. The couple lead a defense in which the town is decimated, but survives. That was pretty epic. There, some good exposition there in terms of setting us up for what's going to happen with the town meeting. I thought, you know, Tommy was funny. Like what, what is it? Oh, what was it?

[00:38:55] It was the person who shot themselves in the leg and they're like, don't be that guy. Yeah. That was really good. Yeah. That was good. They, they, oh, here's where my note is about the Seth situation. All right. So nevermind. Um, the, but yeah, it was good. It was a good setup. It was effective. It was efficient. We knew exactly what to expect in the fight. Um, in terms of where the pieces on the board were going to be, you know, people up and people down, that kind of thing. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:25] And then they just got right to it. Right. It wasn't like a two, three episode. Oh, you know, we're expecting a big fight. We're expecting a big fight. No, they were just like, boom, here's the fight. Let's go. Right. Right. And I like how Maria took it seriously too. Like, yeah, she wanted to talk to Ellie, but she's like, pay attention before, you know, pay attention to what was going on. We'll talk right after. Right. Right. Uh, I am a little bit disappointed in their defenses and I'm sure, you know, I think there,

[00:39:51] I saw a couple of people on the discord talking about it a little bit, but like, you know, emote, some stakes. But they're growing. If you make emote, you're going to be able to grow? You grow backwards. That's where there's nothing in front of them anyway. So listening posts, I don't know there, you, you could get very noodley about, uh, how their defenses were set up, but it doesn't matter. The fact is they got attacked and they got overrun and, uh, they had, they had some cool

[00:40:19] defenses and it was a, an attack that was bigger in scale than they ever could have imagined. I think is the point. Yeah. And, and like I said, there was no like siege of Jackson in the games at this point. I won't spoil anything. But there was no, like anything like this. It was just horde chasing Abby and Joel, and then eventually they escape it. That's it. Right. Right. So the infected are getting smart.

[00:40:47] Some sort of hive brain thing going on here. I think they're still pretty dumb, but they, they knew how to get up on the roofs. So, you know, they, they figured out, Hey, you know, go in the building, go up the stairs and then like, you can go eat the people. And that doesn't seem like typical stimulus response infected behavior. Right. And you're like, Oh, you know, let me, it depends how infected they are. Like the, the early infected do still see, they still have some like humanity a little bit in them.

[00:41:17] Right. It's, it's more of the later infected that are like blind and just like the bloaters, right? They're not smart. They just, well, that dude was smart. He broke into the wall. He knew how to do that. Slammed until he got in. Yeah. But he, he did it in a place that was less defended. Hmm. All right. Fair enough. So fair enough. Yeah. Maybe they're, maybe they're getting a little smarter. Uh, yeah. I mean, there's, there's some kind of thing and maybe that's, who knows, maybe that's a change that they're putting in there because we got the, um, Oh, what was it called?

[00:41:47] The, uh, the stalker or, uh, the stalker was, uh, the kiddie cat is in the game, by the way. Uh, that's, that's, that's from the game. They are, uh, I, I don't want to tell you like what they are. No, don't say anything. Don't say it. Um, it's not, it's not even that big of a reveal, but I just don't want to say anything. It's fine. Um, but, but they are, you know, they are a little more able to like use their senses, I guess. Right. Right. And be very stealthy as, as it was last episode. Right. Right.

[00:42:16] They don't just run at you. And that was the scary part. I would say too, that in this battle scene, you have a lot of people who have a bunch of limited experience, but I mean, nobody has a big, a big toe to toe brawl like this. I think it would be very easy, easy to accidentally shoot some people who are not infected. If you're there and you're turning around and you're just responding to things.

[00:42:43] I could see how this would translate back into the video game. Like I know you was like, this didn't exist in the video game, but this could have been a very video game scenario. I mean, look, you, you have so many moments of just hordes of zombies that are in the video game and not in the show. Okay. So maybe they're taking some of that. Yeah. I think they're just kind of concentrating it at one point to have a big scene. I was listening to the official podcast and Craig Mason was talking about the director for this episode. He was like, Hey, you know, you nervous? You got this big battle scene. He's like, yeah, you know, that that's all true.

[00:43:13] But I'm, I'm more nervous about the scene. Right. Fair enough. I did like it. The, there was a little bit of background music when the dogs came out, there was a little, you know, like here come our, you know, it was the thing that turned the tides. Yeah. And, and Maria dogs. Yeah. And Maria was the one who, who, who let them loose and made that tactical decision. And that's the thing that was able to turn the tide in the battle. Yep.

[00:43:42] So, and if you listen closely, there's a little bit of music when the dogs come running. It's pretty funny. Did you like Tommy with his flamethrower, like go into the last moment and then the bloater is about to kill him and then he just falls over dead? I don't know how I feel about that. Uh, you know, I, obviously I kept waiting for who's going to rescue him or how's it going to happen or, you know, what, what thing he's going to do. It'll be interesting psychologically because he was at death's door.

[00:44:13] Uh, he was, he, he was, um, it at that point of like, okay, this is it. There's nothing. I got nothing left in the tank literally. And I've got no options out of here. And he, you know, collapses into Maria's arms at the end of the fight. You know, he's so mentally and emotionally exhausted. And he, and he sacrificed himself for her really. Right. He drew the bloater away from her. That's right. Loater was right for her. Yep.

[00:44:38] And, uh, I, you know, on second watch, uh, I kind of, uh, kind of was like, oh, okay. The fire, they show the bloater when it lands, you know, with its head sort of close to the camera there. And you can see the fire going into the skull cavity or whatever. And so the, the fire just burned through enough that it, you know, finally damaged something critical in the systems. And I was like, eh, okay.

[00:45:04] I don't know if I wanted more of a triumphal thing or, you know, we'll see if there's some emotional repercussions that come later out of that scenario. Yeah. I did enjoy all the development between the Jacksonians, uh, especially, you know, you get the, the shooting, the, the infected guy, right? The guy's got a bite. He just hands him the pistols. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, I thought that was a great exposition moment.

[00:45:32] Like we talk about, maybe you don't need to know what happened to Eugene cause you just saw it. That's exactly what happened to Eugene. Right, right, right, right. But it's good world building, right? It's all interlocking without it necessarily being intentional, you know, world built or, uh, uh, intentional plot construction is just cohesive world building. They're following the rules of the world that they set up. And so everything inside of that, if it follows the rules, then it makes sense.

[00:45:59] It was wordless and it, and it showed us exactly what happens. Yeah. Yeah. It was really powerful actually. Cause you're, you know, you've been living with this for how many years and, uh, and how many times have you done it for other people? And so it's part of the culture. Right. You ready to talk about the scene? I guess let's do it. When Joel and Dina arrive at the ski lodge, Abby and her friends, the WLF ambush Joel distracted by the destruction of Jackson. Joel was caught off guard.

[00:46:29] The group puts Dina to sleep while Abby shoots out Joel's legs and reveals she is the daughter of the unarmed doctor Joel shot in Salt Lake. Abby takes her time monologuing and torturing Joel until Ellie walks in and is taken down to the floor to look Joel in the eyes. She begs him to get up and he tries, but Abby makes the killing blow. Ellie promises to kill them all. My name is Indigo Montoya. Wait, oh, I can't remember now.

[00:46:58] I flubbed the line. My name is Indigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die. This is a lot of avenging death happening here, man. And that's, you know, the game knows and the show knows that it's asking the question, when will the cycle of violence stop? Right? And how important is it to seek vengeance? These are questions the game is knowingly raising. And I will say answers in interesting ways. Okay.

[00:47:27] And I think this goes back to a little bit to our previous conversation about like when when at a sociological level, you know, maybe on a personal level, you know, I'm never going to have a drink with that guy or, you know, hang out with that group of people or something. But where does a civil society end and personal, you know, personal revenge begin, right?

[00:47:51] You know, where's the balance point there in terms of what are laws and what is the function of them in society? Because, you know, in this particular aspect, this is just a never-ending cycle of revenge, right? Yeah, and I'll say like, I think my point is you don't have to get revenge to withhold forgiveness, right? Sure.

[00:48:18] Forgiveness is a gift freely given and withheld. Just because you don't forgive someone doesn't mean you're going to go on a revenge mission on them. No, and it's a question then too of how great is the hurt or the damage and at what point does the – at what point do we need to have rules as a society versus what I'm expected to do as an individual?

[00:48:46] Okay, you committed a crime against me. The system is going to handle the administration of justice and I have to be content with that because then if I go and revisit the same harm on you, then what are we into, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, how'd you find Pedro Pascal's last performance? Um, I kept wanting – he – yeah.

[00:49:15] Like, he – it was – the whole – I'm at a little bit of loss of words because the whole setup from the show running writing standpoint was full of little markers that I thought would somehow get exploited or turned or, you know, would result in the escape.

[00:49:46] So, you know, when Joel was looking between the different WLF members and seeing that there's some dissension in the ranks and he's like, oh, maybe I could exploit that and, you know, then turn one against the other and catch them off guard and then, you know, do something. Or, you know, how is he going to rescue Dina? Yeah. But the whole thing, he was just completely – what's the word I want to use? He was just – he was – like you were saying, he was distracted. Yeah.

[00:50:15] And he got into a position where there was no escape from this. Yeah. And he accepted it. There's no way to turn it. He accepted it at some point. Mm-hmm. I – so, I want to tell you the game line, which is a little bit different, you know, when he tells her, oh, shut the fuck up and do it already. Which is a great, great Joel line. It was great, but the game line was, why don't you say whatever speech you got rehearsed and get this over with? Ah, nice. I kind of like that one better. I kind of missed that. Yeah.

[00:50:46] But Joel is a man of fewer words, right? In the show, the show Joel. Yeah, and that – and I'll say she already did give most of the speech she rehearsed, I think, at that point, so maybe it wouldn't have made sense. Right. They did extend that monologue quite a lot because, like I said, your point in the game, you don't even know that Abby is a Firefly, a former Firefly. You just think they're a raider or something. They could be anything, right? Right. Anybody from Joel's past, he pissed off.

[00:51:13] So I do like the way that they extended in this. I got to say, though, you know, Caitlin Dever, who plays Abby, she was one of the considerations to play Ellie. Oh, okay. They were originally going to make this a movie, and then the movie lapsed, and they decided to make it a show, and they decided she was too old to play Ellie at that point. Hmm. But they originally were going to cast her. I got to say, she looks and acts and sounds more like Gay Melly than Bella Ramsey does.

[00:51:43] Interesting. Interesting. And I'm not saying I'm knocking Bella Ramsey's performance. No, no, no. I think it's a great performance. But she feels like a much more distinct character than Gay Melly. Whereas show, you know, show Abby feels like Gay Melly, which is fine. Like, I do think we're supposed to, you know, you're supposed to compare the two. You're supposed to put them side by side and be like, they both just lost their father. Absolutely.

[00:52:12] What does that do to somebody? Right. And I think the pairing, and how much is Abby like Joel? Right. And how driven and focused she is on her revenge. You know, I think Joel was driven to survive. I don't think he was, he didn't make, he didn't make things five years personal or however long it took for them to go to Seattle and back. Um, you know, I think Joel seems to move on more, but, but I do love the comparisons.

[00:52:43] There weren't many of these sort of totemic, um, or icon, iconographic elements that we've had the watch, the switchblade, things like that. But there was, uh, part of a scene, uh, where was it? And I'm trying to remember where, where we do see that, uh, Abby has a watch. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I was like, oh, maybe that's it. I mean, it was, uh, maybe it was an episode one.

[00:53:11] Uh, and I was like, oh, isn't that interesting? She's, uh, she's a little bit like Joel in some way. So. I love Abby's line where she says, you know, there's just some things that we all agree are just fucking wrong. Mm-hmm. And, I mean, it goes back to your, she's on your side on the Joel is a monster scale, right? Mm-hmm. Like, she is on your side. She's like there, I, I, and, you know, people are questioning, like, why didn't she ask why he did it? I think that's why. Mm-hmm.

[00:53:41] She just says there are some things that are just fucking wrong. Killing an unarmed doctor is just fucking wrong. Right. And is shooting somebody in the leg and then beating them to death and stabbing them in the neck with a broken golf club, is that right or is that wrong? Well, here's the thing. She says, this is wrong by my code. Mm-hmm. And I'm going to do it anyway. She's making a conscious choice to break her code. Right. Yeah, yeah, no, that's true. You're right. You're right.

[00:54:09] Because the whole code thing sets up. Yeah. Her, her thing. And her, I mean, except for maybe Manny, and I forget the other woman's name. There's Nora, there's Mel. Mel is the medic. Mel is the medic. Oh, so Nora. I didn't see Nora or Manny.

[00:54:29] I can't remember, but I certainly think that Mel, the medic, and Owen seemed particularly disturbed by the ongoing beating. Yeah. I think they were like, okay, fine, revenge, kill him, and move on, right? But they were a little bit horrified by Abby's. Yeah, they were. The depth that Abby was going to. Depth? Is that the right word? Whatever.

[00:54:56] The extent to which Abby was drawing that out. And that's why, you know, Owen hands her a weapon and he's like, just end it. Yeah. Yeah. It's done. The guy can't even talk anymore. Like, what are you doing? Yeah. This is twisted. It's, shall we say, monstrous behavior? Yeah. I mean, look, she was hurting herself more than Joel at that point. Like, her own psyche will never recover from that. Right. And she couldn't forgive him.

[00:55:24] Um, and that's interesting that now that we, I think about that, the, and I'm not talking about the, the scale of the, the incident here, but just this question of forgiveness. So, we had a, one question of forgiveness with Seth and Ellie, and here we see Abby cannot forgive Joel and goes to an extreme length to, uh, continue to act out on that.

[00:55:52] Uh, the opposite of, you know, I mean, to the, what is it even, I don't know even if it's connected in the same way, but it's, she's, she's, um, acting on her feelings of anger and hatred. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. And just, just to draw a contrast there though, Ellie withholding an apology isn't harming. No, no, no, no, no. Okay. It's not harming Seth. He, any, any consequences from his actions are from his actions.

[00:56:22] Her withholding an apology, withholding a gift is not doing anything to him. Sure. Whereas. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Go ahead. Continue. And any psychological harm he's going to suffer is based on his own actions. Mm-hmm. The, the difference is, you know, it's, it's different if Ellie goes like, all right, well now I'm going to start calling you slurs, you know, like, um, but, but Abby is like, no, it's, it's not about an apology. I don't want an apology. And she brings four people with her to be involved in this. Yeah.

[00:56:50] And she, she bloodies all their hands. Right. Yeah. Uh, she's like, I, I need to inflict as much. Uh, in fact, I need to inflict more pain on you than my dad had inflicted on him. Right. You shot him in the head. I'm going to. I'm going to. Yeah. Torture. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think it's interesting. We're getting to a, um, more nuanced investigation of this forgiveness question too. And I, I think it's good because you're right.

[00:57:17] Uh, um, she doesn't have to, Ellie doesn't have to do anything relative to Seth other than to maintain a civil presence in town. Right. She's, she can't go around town spray painting Seth as a dickhead on. No. And I don't think she will. No, I'm not saying it's not about whether she would or she wouldn't. It's about the question of where does, uh, you know, the question of forgiveness and retribution

[00:57:46] and society. No, she's not obligated to give him forgiveness, but she's also obligated to not continue to act out against Seth. Do you see what I mean? She can't go throw eggs at his house. Well, she, she hasn't acted out at him at all at this point. I'm not, I'm, I'm talking, I'm, I'm widening the, the, the, I'm trying to get to. She shouldn't have retribution to him. Neither should.

[00:58:13] And, and Abby probably shouldn't have gone after Joel for her own sake. Well, I'm not talking about Abby and that, right? There's a meta thing, but it's just like, okay, well, do you owe somebody forgiveness for this kind of level? Well, no, maybe you don't, but then you also, you know, you also just need to be able to participate in society next to that person. Right. If he's a cook in the, uh, at the cafeteria, you can't go in and like flick mashed potatoes at him every time you go get your food. Yeah.

[00:58:38] And well, and with the level of wrong that Joel did, you know, functioning society, he goes to prison. Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Or has some kind of restorative, you know, you brought up restorative justice has, has some kind of incarceration that rehabilitates him. Right. Theoretically, but it, and it's interesting because then that is a bandwidth, right? Like we're in a zombie society. Right. Which walking dead, uh, tried to deal with, with the whole Negan in jail thing, right?

[00:59:06] There's a whole thing where they had to, they actually build a jail and to put this one dude in and they're like trying to figure out how do we, how do we manage for that? Um, and, uh, you're not going to get me to watch the walking dead. So you can, I'm not, I'm not, no, no, I'm just, just pointing out the fact that another show did try to, uh, address some of this question. So I, I just think it's interesting. I mean, it's, it's part of the, it's part of what's, the show is provoking the thoughts and the conversation, right?

[00:59:34] I think we're having a lovely, interesting conversation. Yeah. And then, uh, then we, then I have the vision of, of Joel just getting shot in the knee. Like, oh God. Like that was so brutal. That's rough, huh? Just right. Just kneecapped right there. Bam. If he had lived, he would never walk the same again. No. And there's no way. Right. Then I was like, when they did that, I was like, this changes the whole dynamic of what could potentially even happen in the rest of the show.

[01:00:04] And then they kill him. Yeah. So it's like, and I thought it was really interesting too, that Ellie is so ineffective. You know, she sneaks through the door. She doesn't see Manny and they, they subdue her really quickly and effectively where they were, where they prepped us for episode in episode one that she's, uh, you know, getting better as a, uh, one-on-one fighter. One-on-one. Yeah. But now she didn't expect to have the whole crew there.

[01:00:34] Militia who seemed to be very capable. Yeah. And who are not afraid of violence. They definitely heard her coming in. Yeah. And they were like, all right, get the door. Uh, I think Manny just happened to be over there because everybody else was surprised. Okay. Yeah. All right. And, and she reacted, she saw Joel on the ground and rather than, she rushed in, you know, she, she. I always remember Gary Oldman in Batman too. I think it was in, in the dark night going doors and corners kid. Yeah, exactly. Robin.

[01:01:03] Or we could say, um, uh, corners and doors is, uh, from the expanse. Uh, Miller, uh, is, is also, that's a famous line. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's another one. Yeah. Uh, so now with, uh, no zaddy keeping us. I love that that's a full bullet point for you here. I guess we're going to Seattle. I guess we're going to go meet Isaac and learn all about the WLF. No spoilers, but I think you could guess what Ellie wants to do next. Yes. Wafo.

[01:01:34] Wafo. Is this a Wafo? Do we need to bring Wafo back? Wafo. Are they, we can always do Wafo. I mean, we, we've been doing it on Wheel of Time. We've been, uh, we've been, we've been doing it on a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard. Yeah. I can't imagine the bind you were in prior to this. Just, you just couldn't say anything even because a, a, a, a Wafo or no Wafo, like, you know, would, would, you know, I can neither confirm nor deny. I just went, uh-huh. Uh-huh.

[01:02:03] After everything you said about the future last episode, I was like, I just have to do this for one more week and then it'll be fine. Yeah. And we'll be good. We'll be good. I feel free now. I feel free. Even last season, I felt a little bit like holding my tongue on like, every time you're like, Joel is a monster. I'm like, don't worry. Bro, you don't. He'll get his. He'll get his. All right. Let's take another break and then let's, let's wrap this thing up with the end scenes.

[01:02:50] Ellie, Dina, and Jesse ride back to Jackson with Joel's body in tow. The town reels from the destruction of the attack. Through the valley, sung by Ashley Johnson, Ellie's voice actor in the game. Please in the background. One thing I noticed on this, cinematography wise, this episode wasn't, didn't stand out. There wasn't anything big that stood out to me. I mean, they really put a lot of focus in on the action that was going on.

[01:03:18] But one thing that I did appreciate is that we, we kind of open with a long shot on Jackson after the dream sequence. You know, when they wake up there, it's one of the first things that we see is, you know, Jackson in the distance. And then on, as they're riding in, we close with a long shot of Jackson from the mountains. And they, they did that last episode as well.

[01:03:45] And so they're sort of situating Jackson visually in our way. And if, if we're going to be leaving Jackson, that's my prediction, then it's, I don't know, it's a kind of a nice way to bookend and to make Jackson itself a character in the, in the show. Yeah. Yeah. And, and the beginning of it being like, look at this formidable place. We'll never get in. And in the end it's in flames. Right. Right. And they've accomplished their mission. And then now that I don't even need to get in.

[01:04:15] Yeah, exactly. Time to go home. Uh, so Ashley Johnson was Ellie's game. Did we haven't seen her right? Or no, we have. She was Ellie's mother. Season one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. I thought, I thought that was right. And so that's a really beautiful moment, right? That, that Ellie's mom is singing through the valley. Yeah. In the background. Right. And is that song? I don't know that song. It's a Johnny Cash song.

[01:04:44] I was wondering if it was, there was a Johnny Cashness to it. I had, I had that straight thought, but I didn't put a lot of stock into it. So that's cool that it, that it is. So on the official podcast, they said that they had filmed. So they had filmed this as Ellie. Like she did the motion capture with like a motion capture guitar and everything. Oh wow. Of Ellie doing this in the game and then they cut it. So, but they still have the recording, I guess, or maybe they had to redo it. I don't know.

[01:05:10] But, uh, they, they wanted Ashley Johnson to do it again for the, for the show. And I think it really worked. I think it's a, a, a really nice piece of music for the, for this wrap up. And, and it's kind of a cool, you know, I, I wouldn't have known that unless you told me kind of a thing. And I, it does, it makes a nice wraparound, uh, for all of it. Isn't Ashley Johnson, one of the, um, what's that D and D, um, uh, Mythic Quest or something? No, no, no.

[01:05:38] It's the, um, the live action one with all the voice actors. I'm blanking the name now. Uh, Critical Role? Yeah. Isn't she a Critical Role? Yeah, she's in Critical Role. I just woke it up. But yeah, I thought so. I thought so. She's done a lot of voice acting too in general. And, and like, I want to say she's not just the voice actor for Ellie. She is the actor. Like they, you can watch and they put like the dots on their faces and they like, they're even capturing, this was one of the first games to do it, I think, to capture facial expressions for the actor, not just the body motion. Right.

[01:06:08] And you, you could even see her on the ground, like pressed up against the ground doing that scene as Ellie. Wow. Um, that, that Bella Ramsey did. Okay. Uh, what'd you think of a Bella Ramsey performance by the way? Cause that was, that was a big shift of I'm going to grieve so hard and then I'm going to turn angry and tell you I'm going to kill you all. Hmm. Yeah. Uh, I didn't remark on it. It's not anywhere in my notes.

[01:06:37] And I guess maybe that's saying something because she delivered what I expected her to deliver. Like she met expectations in the best way. Like, I guess I was just so, I'm so wrapped up in my zaddy being murdered. That, uh, yes, exactly. So I've, so I'm vibing with her, right? Like I feel quite the daddy daughter day. Yeah. Yeah. They really did. So I guess I'm feeling like she did what she needed. She delivered as an actor and for that role. Yeah. So boom, she did it.

[01:07:07] Right. Yeah. Uh, it worked on me. There are a fair number of complaints about Bella Ramsey this season. Um, I, I, I don't subscribe to them. Like, I think she's doing a good job. I think people in general were just like, she doesn't look enough like gay melee. And, and I, I think there was some criticism of like, she looks too young to play the age at this point in the story. Mm hmm. I, I, I don't really agree. I think she's doing a good job.

[01:07:35] I have no criticism whatsoever. I have no, I have zero casting criticism. I have some nitpicks about, you know, what kind of radio they're using because they were holding handheld VHF radios and she was talking on an HF radio. So like, that's a whole thing. But I, like I said, it doesn't matter to me because the point is the, the storytelling. Right. If you're noticing that there's going to be a problem. Right. Well, I'm going to notice that because I'm a nerd that way anyway.

[01:08:03] So, uh, you know, in, in point defense things and forward operating bases, whatever. Uh, but in terms of production. And, um, the look and the feel and the actors, I have zero complaints. I can't believe people would be complaining at this point. Yeah. I, I don't understand the hate. There's, there's some like, you gotta be careful where you go on the internet because there is some real like vitriol about game two and the plot of this season.

[01:08:31] Uh, again, people don't like when you kill who you consider to be the protagonist. Right. Right. Uh, see Ned Stark. Yeah. Right. And I'm sorry. I'm sorry if that spoiled it for you. The Ned Stark thing, but it's been like 20 years now. So I think we're good. Yeah. Um, all right. All right. Uh, feedback. We've got a couple pieces here. Oh, okay. Nobody coming after me for cassette tapes.

[01:08:58] One person came up to you for cassette tapes, not an email. They left a comment on Spotify, which I recently figured out how to pull. Okay. So don't look everyone. It's better to email us. We'll, we'll get it for sure. Email us. But like, uh, if I find it, I'll put it in a good pot as usual. This is from gamer girl. It says good pot as usual, but please let go of the cassette thing. I have cassettes from the eighties that play just fine. Keep up the good work. Zing. Fair enough. Fair enough. I'm off it.

[01:09:28] I'm off it. Do you want to start reading do 71 do wrote us a blog post? Yeah. Looks, it looks like he did. Didn't he? All right, here we go. Dear David and John. Hi guys. Well, that episode is this a after episode one or episode two. Episode two. Do send this today. Oh, okay. Great. Oh, so he took some time. All right. After hopping on the discord and seeing posts and reactions, I wanted to share my thoughts on the second episode. Oh, there, there it is right there.

[01:09:54] Which I felt masterfully used juxtaposition to create one of the most emotionally impactful hours of television I've experienced. Period. What struck me. Period. I can't, I'm not going to do an English accent. That would be disrespectful. You just did though. I know. And I apologize. And I hope you can forgive me one day, doof. What struck me most was the brilliant structural contrast between the large scale threat and the intimate personal violence.

[01:10:24] Ah, I like where he's going with this. On the one hand, we have a spectacular battle for Jackson. A visual triumph of effects and choreography showing an entire community fighting for survival. Jean called, rightly called it the best depiction of a battle scene on TV since Game of Thrones Battle of the Bastards. What makes this sequence particularly powerful is how it reveals Tommy's character through action.

[01:10:50] The moment he realizes the infected will breach the walls, he immediately runs to man the flame units, already placing himself in the most dangerous position. Not a general sitting back to strategize. Tommy's, Tommy's been in combat many times. His is the leadership under fire. As the battle spills into the streets, stores, and rooftops of Jackson, we see Tommy spotting the bloater moving towards his wife's firing position.

[01:11:19] Without a moment's hesitation, he throws himself into the heart of the danger, deliberately diverting the bloater's attention towards himself instead. His confrontation with the monster while wielding a dwindling flamethrower whilst employing familiar tropes created breathtaking tension. But more importantly, it showed us exactly why Tommy is one of the community's leaders. His instinct is to protect others at his own expense.

[01:11:48] The relief when Jackson survives gives the viewers a moment to exhale, with Tommy's heroism standing as a testament to what's worth fighting for. And I do love, just to put a capper on it, Doove, I love seeing him collapsing into the arms of his spouse. He's just so spent physically and emotionally and relieved that his wife is alive and that his town has survived. And he really did put his all into that fight.

[01:12:18] So, good call. Yeah, and the scale of violence, right? The big battle versus the intimate personal moments, both with Joel and Ellie and with Tommy and the bloater. It really was. I mean, that was one of the complaints about Westworld, right? We just can't get the battles right. Mm-hmm. And here, we got the battle right. I think you're right. This was great. Yeah.

[01:12:39] I think, yeah, I can't fault the, yeah, I'm trying to think through if there's anything that threw me off. And no, it all felt very kinetic. It all felt very, it flowed. It didn't drag on. It didn't get lost in what it was doing. It did the thing that it set out to do. Yeah, I think it was good. Yeah. Right.

[01:13:03] And like you and Du were saying, like this small scale thing, like it's like watching Jon Snow run through the army, right? Mm-hmm. At the same time as watching the big spectacle. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You want to continue? I can. Then comes the devastating counterpoint, the claustrophobic, intensely personal violence of Joel's death at Abby's hands.

[01:13:28] After the relative victory of saving Jackson, this intimate brutality feels like a gut punch. The actor portraying Abby was extraordinary. Yeah, she was. She did a, her and Bella did both excellent jobs. Her character was coiled like a spring throughout the early interactions until she finally exploded, shockingly shooting Joel in the kneecap. Despite their limited screen time together, both characters communicated volumes. Joel's palpable guilt.

[01:13:56] Abby's consuming rage. And Joel's almost eerily calm acceptance of his fate. What struck me wasn't defiance or dignity in Joel's final moments, but rather a cold recognition. This is a man who's been on both sides of violence. A hard man some would call a monster. Well played.

[01:14:24] And there's an almost disconnected quality to how he faces his end. He doesn't struggle or desperately call for life. It's more like, okay, time to die. I'm going to interject Roy Batty there and from Blade Runner. But anyway, the guilt that had been corroding him from the inside seems to have prepared him for this moment. I found myself wondering if he would have already reacted differently. If he would have reacted differently.

[01:14:53] Had he known Ellie was nearby? If that might have awakened something more desperate in him. Some will to survive. Should we pause here or do we want to keep going? We can pause here. Okay. Do you have any thoughts about this? I think that's absolutely right. You know, Joel. Just accepting like, all right. You know what? I've heard a lot of people.

[01:15:21] I did my best with, you know, not dying so that Ellie had a dad. But I guess this is it. I guess this is it. You know, my kneecaps are shot out. I'm not going to be able to do much anyway. Just that. And it's interesting when they were putting Dina to sleep. He almost nods to her like, it's okay. Yeah. In some way, Joel recognizes, finally recognizes who he's standing before.

[01:15:50] Not in the sense of, oh, this is the doctor's daughter. But this is a group of people who, if they say they're going to do this thing, they're going to do this thing. And the thing that they're here to do is kill me, not to kill anybody else. And Abby says, I have a code. Dina's defenseless. Now she's asleep, right? So I think you're right. That I think Dew's right here in that he can accept his fate because he knows that Ellie's not nearby. Yeah.

[01:16:20] Yeah. And it's only when Ellie's there, he tries to get up. That's really the most heartbreaking thing. He says, get up. And you see him move just a tiny bit because he's like, I want to get up for you. Yeah. His hand moves and he sort of lifts his head a little bit. Yeah. Yep. Yep. All right. Continuing. The most chilling. Oh, I see. There's another pause down here. This is a, you're right. This is a blog post.

[01:16:49] That's why I added the pauses. Yes. Thank you. I should have. I wasn't reading ahead. I wasn't scrolling further enough down. The most chilling moment was Abby's almost statistic, statistic, ah. Statistic smile. Statistic smile when delivering the coup de grace. That single expression captured the thematic heart of the season. How revenge transforms a person providing momentary satisfaction that ultimately hollows them out.

[01:17:17] And then there's that scene with Ellie looking at Joel as he lay bloody and unresponsive on the floor. It got seriously dusty in my living room when that happened. My wife was quietly in tears next to me. The crushing weight of their unfinished reconciliation hung in the air. All that unspoken love conveyed in just one look from Ellie contrasted with the fear in her voice.

[01:17:45] Bella Ramsey absolutely nailed it in that moment. Smashed it out of the park. Part of me hopes Joel was conscious just enough to hear Ellie in those moments to know that she was there and that she still cared deeply despite everything. Hmm. Yeah. You want me to finish this so you don't have to keep going? I know you. Yeah, I got it. I got it. I can do it. Unless you want to. Yeah. No, no, no. You're good. All right. I want to just, you know, make up for. Alicia always has me alternate.

[01:18:14] So now I'm throwing off my rhythm. Okay. All right. All right. All right. Yeah. So it's, we haven't, you and I haven't been on the microphone together much. I know. I know. This is classic lore hounds. Yes, it is. Absolutely. Going back to our roots. This episode brilliantly juxtaposes different types of horror. The spectacle of infected overwhelming a community versus the intimate horror of watching someone you love being brutalized.

[01:18:38] The relief of surviving one threat only to be confronted with an even more personal loss. It shouldn't come as a surprise or enter spoiler territory that this whole season will explore the repercussions of the season one finale. Abby enacting her, enacting her revenge, or as she sees it, inevitable justice and examining how that vengeance ripples outward and exacts its toll on everyone involved.

[01:19:07] The showrunners understand that true horror comes not just from bloaters and clickers, but from what people become when pushed to extremes. And the contrasts they've built into this episode demonstrate this masterfully. How they handle the next episode in particular, following this one, which even on the other great drama, which even on other great dramas would have been a season finale, will be a test of how they interpret the story.

[01:19:38] How they interpret the story the game was able to tell over hours of extended gameplay. As always, keep up the great work. Stu, aka Doove71. Wow, this was a great email. Thank you, Doove. This was awesome. I love your perspective on this whole show and this. This is indeed a good material for a blog post, if one were to wish to write one.

[01:20:08] Yeah, I think you could just read this whole thing. Just send it to Brian. He'll clean it up. Yeah. And just by the way, we do have a blog. You can go to lorehounds.com and you can find it there. You just did one on Andor, right? I just did one on Andor. I did one on the evolution of a revolutionary. Six defining moments in Cassian's journey.

[01:20:30] I look at six key moments across the 12 episodes where I find real personal poignancy in what happens and how it's explored and how Cassian goes from a thief who's just surviving to a revolutionary who gives it all.

[01:20:56] And yeah, I had a lot of fun sort of deconstructing the storyline after watching the – doing a double rewatch of the season. Can you tell I'm excited about – I think you're a little excited about Andor. You were putting like the – who's like the biggest show on right now rankings? You put Andor at the top. I was like, I don't actually think that's true. I think you're just really excited for Andor.

[01:21:19] Dude, the material that's out there on the internets right now is – a lot of people are covering the show and there's a lot of podcast coverage, a lot of YouTube coverage. Yep. It's big splash. You could say, oh, what's the viewership numbers, right? Through looking at how many hours it's watched and all that kind of stuff. But I was sort of thinking more just on a gut check in the cultural zeitgeist.

[01:21:48] And it feels – yeah, of course I'm biased because of Andor. I believe that in your gut you consider Andor the most popular show on TV right now. The hype is real. That is for sure. How big is the hype? I don't know. That's anyone's guess. But all right. All right. I think let's talk about what we're doing quick. We talked about it mostly in the front. Andor. We're doing Andor full coverage. The last of us, you're here.

[01:22:18] Finishing up Wheel of Time. We just have to do our feedback episode after this. And Doctor Who, we're doing full coverage because we are crazy people. And you guys are hanging out with Ian from Captain Spot, which is great. Yeah. That's right. He's coming. He's not going to be on this week. He can't make it this week. But he's coming in when he can. That's great. That's great. And then Daredevil, Alicia and John. I think they had Luke on as well. And they wrapped up. I think so, yeah. I haven't listened to it because I haven't watched the last episode yet. Oh, okay.

[01:22:47] And then, yeah, we've got some more stuff coming later this year. But who cares? Because Andor's on right now. That's right. You want to just tell people about our affiliates quick? Sure. Well, let's see. Rings and Rituals is on hiatus. We'll shift dust after the silo coverage and now Wheel of Time. I'm not sure what Alicia's plans are. Alicia's doing Dune next. There's always talk of Dune next.

[01:23:12] And then she's got the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast where she's breaking down the whole Star Wars Canon Timeline bit by bit. And so she'll be resuming that soon too. Right. And then Anthony and Steve should be coming back with a, I believe they're going to be doing a Kevin Bacon film festival type thing. So that'll be fun. And Radioactive Ramblings were doing some Studio Ghibli films. Yep. They were doing Ponyo recently, I believe. Right.

[01:23:44] Did you say Nevermind the Music? I did not say Nevermind the Music. You said Nevermind the Music. Nevermind the Music. They're doing weekly coverage of the intersection between music and psychology. It's very cool stuff. They got sidetracks every now and then where they go a little deeper into a side conversation. But they've got so much stuff going on. Right now, I think tomorrow they have a podcast on Baby, Baby, Baby by TLC. Oh, nice. That's great. That's great stuff.

[01:24:14] And I think they're coming near the end of their first season. And I believe Mark was starting to get ready for their next season. That's exciting stuff. Quick thank yous, David. Discord server boosters, Aaron K, Tiller the Thriller, Dork of the Ninjas, Doove71, Athena Agilea, Tina, Lestu, Nancy M, Ghost of Perdition, and Radioactive Richard all are supporting our Discord community by donating their Nitro bits, things, whatever. To our Discord.

[01:25:12] To our Discord. So it's a more cooler place. Thank you. Thank you.

[01:25:40] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You're here. And we will talk to you on episode three. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact.

[01:26:08] Get early and ad free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Hey, Mark. I was listening to Paramore the other day and it really made me think about the amygdala and the limbic system. You just made those words up, didn't you? What? Paramore?

[01:26:36] We're the Nevermind the Music podcast where one musician and one psychologist talk songwriting and the mind one song at a time. We'll hear everything from Green Day and OutKast to Stevie Wonder and Dua Lipa. And we mostly try to stay on topic. Except for when we don't want to. Nevermind the Music, wherever you get your podcasts.