The Last of Us - S02E03 - The Path

[00:00:01] Hey Mark, I was listening to Paramore the other day and it really made me think about the amygdala and the limbic system. You just made those words up, didn't you? What, Paramore? We're the Nevermind the Music Podcast, where one musician and one psychologist talk songwriting and the mind, one song at a time. We'll hear everything from Green Day and OutKast to Stevie Wonder and Dua Lipa. And we mostly try to stay on topic. Except for when we don't want to.

[00:00:25] Nevermind the Music, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Lore of Us Podcast. We're the Lorehounds, your guides to the fungal apocalypse. This is our coverage of The Last

[00:00:54] of Us on HBO, Season 2, Episode 3, The Path. I'm John. And I'm David. And I did your line before, so now I've ruined the whole rhythm. I thought we had like a natural flow so we didn't actually script out the intros like we usually do. I know, I know. It's confusing. It turns out now that we're without Joel, our whole vibe is off. He was the glue that was keeping this union together.

[00:01:20] Basically, basically. And yeah, the world has changed, so we have to adapt with it. Did you see he's not in the intro anymore? I did not watch the intro. I skipped it. There were two silhouettes of them in the intro and they took his away. Oh, that's right. In the fungal thing at the very end. Now it's just, well, where's Dina? That's not fair to Dina. Maybe she'll earn that spot, but not yet. I think this episode, they really wanted to like emphasize Ellie is alone.

[00:01:46] Sure, sure. Well, we're going to start with our hot takes and then we're going to get into a discussion of the episode, sort of more thematically based. If you have emails, and thank you for the ones who did send in emails this last week, tlou at thelorehounds.com. We always love to hear from you. And this, this is a show that engenders a lot of conversation. Yeah.

[00:02:09] There's a lot of feelings and thoughts and we're anything if we're not like sensitive and thoughtful community. And so we do definitely want to hear, uh, hear what you have to say about this, uh, series because this thing is hitting hard. Uh, the discord is also another great place for us to have conversation. It's popping. It is. And that in the and or one, man, there were people writing

[00:02:35] novels in there. It was deep. It's really good. Uh, if you like what we're doing and you want to support us and support our co-hosts, you can subscribe either as a monthly or a, uh, annual membership. And there are links for all of that in the link tree. Yeah. We got a lot going on right now. We're doing, and, or as you said, this show, Dr. Who finishing up wheel of time. I just have to

[00:03:02] edit the, uh, wrap up and we're, we're all set with that season. So that'll be a relief. Yeah. It did get some good, uh, I was looking at the numbers a little bit. Uh, it was a solid season for you guys this year on that. You know, it's funny because you know, our numbers are higher on some shows, but, uh, I think we have a higher percentage of the wheel of time fan base cause it's just a smaller fan base. Right. I think we've, I think we've infiltrated Twitter of time,

[00:03:27] blue sky of time, whatever it is. Right. Right. That's great. Good to hear. Yeah. Right. Uh, we'll have more news about the, uh, affiliated network at the end of the podcast. I think, um, the last little thing is John, you've played the games. I have not. I've only watched season one. So you had to keep a secret for a very, very, very long time and you did an excellent job.

[00:03:53] Thank you. Thank you. I really did try to not like be like, Oh, I don't know what's going to happen. You know what I mean? Like I tried to not be like cutesy about it. Yeah. Uh, and then, and now you've been as hurt as I was. Goodness. I love people are bringing back their 2020 when the game came out, their 2020 playthroughs and their reactions on like the streamers are breaking out the recordings of their reactions to Joel's death in the game. They're like, wait, what, what you're like, it shocked you in the game just as

[00:04:22] much as perhaps more because there's no spoilers out there. Uh, man, it's, it's such a move, but we're not here to talk about Joel's death. No, at least not directly. We're here to talk about episode three, the path, which is a big Ellie episodes. You want to give your hot takes? Yeah. And this might come as a little bit of surprise, not only to you, but, um, to the listeners. I've really been thinking

[00:04:46] about it a lot and I've come to a decision. Okay. Uh, and I don't know this, this, I apologize in advance if this is a shocking thing or not, but I really, I really do feel that corn is the way to go. I agree with Scott that it's a great cover crop. Uh, it has a high utility value to it and, uh, it's quick growing and yeah, I just think it's the right way. He's got some good arguments.

[00:05:15] I love though that like everyone's like, look cool, but time in place. It's an open meeting, man. According to the bylaws. I mean, shucks, it's, it's an open meeting. My other hot take was that Ellie or, uh, that, uh, Bella Ramsey is just, uh, she's a mediocre, they are a mediocre actor. I see you laughing. Yes, I see you laughing. Bella's doing a great job.

[00:05:40] Well, man, she's dropping the hammer on this. Uh, well, I didn't mean to use hammer in the wolf episode here with the, with the weird cultists, but yeah, they do have a name, but I, I not going to reveal it just yet. Right. Uh, I noticed that you had said set up episode and not to be controversial or anything like that, but just, I think set up is, is almost, it kind of diminishes the importance of this episode. Something that I was really thinking about. It is a set up,

[00:06:11] absolutely functionally. It is a set up episode. Like we've closed a major chapter. We've almost, that, that could have been a season finale. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And, and, uh, uh, so, so now we've got this show that has to recalibrate itself. And I think that the show did something, which was very important, which is we needed to accept Joel's death and we need to reorient to

[00:06:38] the world as it is now, uh, in the show. Um, it's not Pablo, uh, Pedro, sorry, Pablo, Pedro Pascal or Bella Ramsey anymore. It's Bella Ramsey. And, uh, Oh, I can't, I don't know Dina's, uh, Isabella Merced. Thank you, Isabella Merced and some others. But if we didn't take a beat and let that sort of breathe and let that sort of grieving prop

[00:07:04] process occur, we all knew we were going to Seattle, but we did need to have that, those opening scenes with, uh, with Tommy and, and Joel's body. Uh, and, and we need to lay some new track and groundwork for the fandom to move forward with the, with the, where the show is going. I've heard some, you know, I'm sure this was true in the video game world as well.

[00:07:30] The game, the, the, the story is, is redirecting, right? So it's not, Oh, lone wolf of the cub. And we're just going to go on a couple of seasons of this and, Oh, and then they have this big conflict and they resolve. There's a fundamental shift to this. And there are people who are like, Oh, I don't want that. I wanted this. I ordered vanilla and now you're giving me vanilla chocolate swirl. Right. But from a storytelling standpoint, I am a hundred percent. Take me on the journey that,

[00:07:59] you know, I've given you my trust and my attention and you want to tell me a story, tell me a story. And this is what's happening. It's not feed me entertainment, feed me the same thing every week, you know, variations on the theme, but actually take me on a journey so that I am coming to a new place with new understanding, new experiences, new thoughts. Um, there is a ton of

[00:08:25] big theme stuff going on in the show, nature versus nurture, grief, vengeance, retribution, injustice, that whole sort of mishmash apologies versus forgiveness, uh, all of that stuff. There are some heavy duty things. And I think it would be a lesser show if it just sort of was on the fly wheel of delivering the same thing over and over again. This is something we're going in a new

[00:08:52] direction with the story because that's what happens in life. That's, that's real in a way. So, um, so, you know, yes, it is a setup episode, but I think the episode is, is much more. I was wondering too, if we're going to see any flashbacks with Joel and I kind of hope we don't, I kind of hope we're, we're, we're done. I mean, I love Pedro Pascal, right. Um, and I just kind of feel it,

[00:09:18] I mean, his fingerprints are all over the show, right? It's the central source of tension between Ellie and Abby. We still have the mystery, you know, as, uh, Gail, um, uh, is, uh, you know, still like, Hey, what is that? Like what, there's something weird here and I kind of want to know what it is. I mean, you have five years missing in this story. So I, I'm just going to say, you know, I, I don't

[00:09:43] know what they're going to do in the show. I, I think that you gotta do some kind of exposition on what happened in those five years at some point. Um, especially because we start off in such a hostile point with, with Joel and Ellie. Right. Right. So we'll see. Uh, you know, I'm, if, if we didn't get any flashbacks with Pedro Pascal, I'd be fine. If we get some, I'm just trusting that they're going to use them because it's a cheap way to, you know, keep a star power in, in the thing. It could

[00:10:10] be, it could be used as a inexpertly, I guess. Well, we do know that Pedro Pascal finished filming earlier than everybody else. So they're definitely not going to like use them heavily. Right, right, right. So, so we'll see. Uh, I thought the background music was really nice. It was palpable. It was present, but not overbearing. It set the right tone. Um, there just as a personal nitpick, there's a lot of ADR that's automatic dialogue replacement.

[00:10:37] So when they capture the audio at the time of filming, if there's like a saw going or the microphone wasn't working, they have a system to insert. I'm explaining for everybody just cause I don't want to sound like a film. I'm just agreeing. I'm going here, here. Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot of bad ADR and it really bothered me. Um, my last two thoughts. One, I posted something on blue sky today of just Joel's watch. I was like really interested

[00:11:04] visually. I thought that was a really nice thing and I wanted to share that. And I was searching for the right hashtag. I wasn't sure if it was TLOU or the last of us, bro. There are some disturbing images of people doing stuff with the characters of this. So do not be careful if you're out there on the internet, there are weird people doing weird stuff with these characters. It's bad. Stay away from the skeets. It is bad. Uh, and my last comment is Dina is right. Guns and waistbands is dumb movie stuff.

[00:11:33] You shoot your ass off and, uh, the gun falls out and, uh, holster your weapon properly with a safety strap, please. Do you know who Isabella Merced played in the past? I do not. People were, people were cracking up at her pulling out the map. She was Dora the Explorer in the Dora movie. Oh, in the movie. And so they're like, Dora's got her map back. That's awesome. She's got her backpack.

[00:11:59] So that's a giant week. And my daughter used to, to watch a lot of Dora and, uh, then Diego. And, uh, that's, I completely missed that. I had no clue, but now that I'm thinking about it, I think that's really funny. I mean, I don't know if that was intentional, but, but it's, they had to, they had to know. Yeah. They knew she's great. I love her. I really vibe with her. Great charisma. Great, a great stage presence. Like she just, she really does take over the screen when she's acting.

[00:12:27] Yeah, absolutely. And I love their chemistry. I love to see what they're cooking. Yeah. They're, they're, they're cooking something. There's cooking something with that little, with like your joke later. Can you want to pull it up to now what you named their little journey? Oh, uh, broke back Snoqualmie. Cause there's two broke back scenes in this. Uh, we also have a little bit of the pit, uh, in the hospital scene, but when Bella's grieving Joel and she's smelling his shirt,

[00:12:55] it's like, that's, you know, that's spoilers for broke back mountain. That's like the power, the most powerful part of that movie. Uh, but yeah, then they're in a, in a tent in the woods. So. Yeah. I mean, for me, I, I did say it was a setup episode. I didn't mean it derogatorily. Like no, no, I didn't think so episode. Yeah. I guess if the other, yeah. Like it, there is no climax without a setup episode, right? Like we are moving pieces right now that we just did a

[00:13:24] lot of moving pieces in this episode. And I saw, it's actually some complaints in the discord. Like how are we jetpacking all the way over to Seattle with no trouble? And for me, here, here's what I have to say. This is a story and we've already done the there and back again thing. Right. Do you really want another season of them getting to Seattle or do you want to see the story in Seattle? And the game does the same thing. You're, you're just in Seattle, maybe a couple like cut scenes, but you're, you're just in Seattle. Here's, I think that's the right decision

[00:13:53] for the story. I agree. And we'll, I think we, yeah, we can talk about it now or later. And I don't want to take, I don't want to take too far off your, take too much of the wind out of your hot, hot take sales. Here's just my little headcanon between, I was looking at the pep today. I was like, okay, the snake river pass or Snoqualmie. Like I was really working out the, because I'm from Seattle. Like I know Snoqualmie. I know Snoqualmie pass. I, you know,

[00:14:18] I know these things and between Seattle and Jackson, except for Boise or Spokane, there's really no major population centers, A and B it is some rugged terrain. So in terms of raiders, in terms of infected, it is a less hospitable environment. So, you know, I I'm fine

[00:14:46] with the fact that they, and they were setting out in the summertime, right? So three months, New Year's, January, February, March, you know, it's still going to be March got to be a little bit later because March is still going to be kind of rough crossing the passes. But anyway, I'm fine with it given the geography. So sorry, I didn't mean to take your, no, you're good. I think that's right. That's all good context. And, and plus you got Dina planning the trip. Like we're going to avoid major cities. You know, she, she did put a lot of thought into this. She wasn't Ellie just

[00:15:13] shoving guns in a bag and running, which yeah, I think that's absolutely an Ellie's character. And, and she needs Dina to pick up the pieces here. A hundred percent. They're not, I would have been dead in like a month at the most. And, and, and so I did buy that it was an easier journey. Plus they've been practicing killing infected every day for five years. Like I, I don't think that it's as much of a threat for them now. I think they know how to survive out there. Right. So I, I believe that. And like Joel and Ellie,

[00:15:41] like it's a series of unfortunate events in the first game, right? In the first season. And, and like, again, I just don't want to see that story again. Right. We are telling a new story here. It's clearly centering around Seattle. Let's get there and get going. Agreed. A hundred percent agreed. But yeah, I think, I think they did a great job. Uh, they made, they made interesting changes and I can't even talk about all of them because I think they're going to reverse on some changes. Like they're going to bring in certain plot points

[00:16:09] a little later. Okay. Uh, but you know, they did redeem Seth more than they did in the game, in the game. People call him bigot sandwich because that's what Ellie says. She call, she says, Oh, thanks for the bigot sandwich or something like that. Um, and, and you know, he, he at least did his best to make things right. Um, she still doesn't have to forgive him. We can talk about that later. She still doesn't have to, she chose to.

[00:16:34] And I do want to be careful around that because I think we did trigger or triggers the wrong word. There was some activation around that. And I think part of it too, is because I reacted to your reaction and you, then we were like reacting off of each other. I think we just had a difference of opinion. Right. And I, I, and I felt emotional about it and it's surprising. It sort of took me by surprise and I didn't realize that those, my reaction to your reaction. So I think that might've played

[00:17:00] into some of that as well. Yeah. Let's talk about that in the feedback. Cause I think we got some feedback on it. Yeah. Um, in fact, that's most of the feedback we got. Um, we, we didn't actually get as much as I thought, like we did have conversation in the discord, but I'm not as nice as Nancy. So I don't include discord as much when we're doing these, especially right now when we're doing like four shows, I just can't like put everything in. Right. Sorry, everyone. Write an email if you want to be included. Yeah. T-L-O-U at the Lawrence.com. Uh, I just can't go into the

[00:17:27] discord and like track who's saying interesting things. But, uh, yeah, I, I think, I think that's a nuanced conversation that we can have later in the episode. But, uh, as, as far as, you know, the, the hot takes, I just think they really nailed all the emotional beats. They really, they really got everything that you needed to get with this. Agreed. Uh, and, and I, they, they grew up Bella Ramsey's hair, which I think is good. Cause that's closer, a little closer to, uh, actually, is it closer? I think she actually had short hair by the time of that.

[00:17:57] Anyway, the point is they changed the look materially to be like, this is a new Ellie. And I think that that was good. Right. Right. Meter made, uh, Ellie look a little bit more mature. Yeah. And, and just to be too, um, on this, I guess Bella Ramsey prefers they them, but is not also not as specific. I think it's like a either. Yeah. Either or. Yeah. Yeah. I looked it up today and I guess more recently they've been saying they, they prefer that they, them a little bit more, but, but they're

[00:18:27] not also, um, uh, adamant necessarily about it. So if it slips a little, and again, we talk about the character versus the actor. Yeah. I will, I will use she, her pronouns with Ellie because that's the character's gender. Um, anyway, point is good episode necessary setup, right? This is, if it were all climax, it would be very boring. It would be very boring. All right. Should we take a quick break and then get into the

[00:18:52] full episode? Sounds like a good plan to me. We're back. So let's start off with grieving Joel as Jackson reels from the infected attack. Tommy takes over the morgue to prepare Joel

[00:19:21] for burial. He tells Joel to give Sarah his love. Ellie wakes up screaming in the town hospital and is sedated for treatment. This, uh, I, I felt good, felt good. Yeah. It's funny how, how we describe feeling good about bad things, but I felt that this was

[00:19:39] appropriate. I felt that the, um, the, the whole sort of setup, I guess, um, yeah, I'm just trying to think about like what would happen. Like I can't, I'm trying to remember what happened with Ellie cause she was riding on the horse. She wasn't that bad, but I guess she, at some point they needed to sedate her and then she, she woke up out of, out of that. I think it was much more psychological injuries than it was. Yeah. But, but she

[00:20:07] was beat up by, by the ground and like kicked around. Yeah. She probably had a broken rib or something like that. Cause they had a chest tube in her draining fluid from her chest cavity. So there was probably some internal bleeding or injuries there, but that, uh, regardless of what you think about the scream and what, you know, would somebody do I, whatever just the, it, the, the intensity of acting that she is displaying.

[00:20:35] Um, and the, and then later we'll talk about it with the time skip, but she's really, I, I feel she's found the character. I, she's found out who Ellie is and she is acting the hell out of this part. Yeah. And the scream really felt, it was just very visceral. It was very real to me. Yeah. I look, I didn't love the scream, but I, I don't think that's her fault. I think I just would have not put a scream there and that's the writing and directing.

[00:21:06] That's not her. Um, but I, I think she sold it for what it was. I just, I just think, uh, it was a little over the top. The fact that she like wakes up screaming. Yeah. I was just like, ah, that doesn't feel right. But, um, yeah, I get it. I mean, she lost the one person that she really trusted in the world. Right. Right. And the, I thought the way that they opened it with the flaming, you know, uh, mushroom barbecue out front was, was quite evocative.

[00:21:33] Tasty. Uh, I really liked the, yeah, I don't know. Do bloaters taste good? Uh, I loved the, the watch, you know, really zeroing in on that. And I was thinking about you when they zeroed in, I was like, I love this because he loves the watch. I don't know. Yeah. It's a totem, right? It's a, the symbol it's branding. Uh, I don't know if we're going to ever see the watch again. Um, cause she didn't take it as far as I'm aware. Yeah. And, and I think that

[00:22:00] was really intentional. That was like, I don't want to remember you. I want to avenge you. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's another one of his symbols is, is that gun. So I thought that was really great. And then I really loved having Tommy come in. I thought that was emotionally appropriate as well. Given that the whole, one of the big motivations, uh, was for them to get to Tommy, to go find Tommy. Yeah. Right. It was a big driver for, for Joel and the whole

[00:22:29] story. And it really sets up Tommy. They set up Tommy quite well in this episode. He's gone from being the kid brother to being, you know, town council, blah, blah, blah. And, um, I think it's a, it, it sets up a good, uh, mechanically it sets up so that when Tommy pushes back on

[00:22:53] Ellie saying he's my brother, I know him pretty well. Uh, you know, so step off, uh, uh, my friend. I thought that, you know, by putting Tommy in there with Joel, then we really, uh, um, reframe that and, and solidify that relationship between brothers. So then later where we have that, uh, emotional context fresh when Ellie, uh, is challenging him a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And,

[00:23:21] uh, all right, let's, let's talk about the challenging later, but I did really enjoy watching Tommy just like the slowly ritually wash Joel, right? It just felt like I am cleansing my brother after all he's done too. Cause I, I do think that Tommy knows that Joel did some fucked up stuff. Yeah, absolutely. He does. You know, he talks to Gail about it later. Yeah. He was not like, you know, he did some great stuff, but he also did some really bad stuff.

[00:23:49] Right. And that's not even counting what he did in Salt Lake. Right. And, and to be clear, I've been seeing some chatter of like, well, you know, the, the, why nobody's questioning why the, uh, why the, the wolves killed Joel and like, you know, maybe they won't come back. And like, I don't think the, I don't think anyone in Jackson right now knows why Joel was killed. Correct. Because Dina was unconscious when it was explained. Right. Yep. So we just don't know.

[00:24:19] Well, we know, but you know what I mean? And I will tell you something. We didn't find out to like halfway through the game. Why Abby killed Joel. Oh, right. So you don't even find out the first half of the game, like with no redeeming quality for Abby, just like, Oh my God, she killed our fake dad. And, and I think that they did it this way so that honestly, I think it was so that the actor didn't get the backlash that the game actor got because the game actor was like

[00:24:48] wildly harassed and it was really bad. And I, and you know, kudos to Pedro Pascal posting a selfie with, uh, right, right. With the actor, uh, Caitlin Dever, right. That's her name. Um, I, I think that was a really good move by him. That was really, that was really classy. Cause we've seen some unfortunate, um, situations. Uh, I mean, obviously with, uh, Amon Best, uh, Jake Lord. Yeah.

[00:25:13] Yeah. Hate Christensen. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So, uh, I, I would hate even Joffrey. Uh, uh, what's his name? Anyway, his name, Jack, somebody Jack, um, yeah, it's Jack something. Anyway, he, he got harassment just for playing an evil guy. Like stop harassing people just for playing characters. You don't like their actors. It's so stupid. Yeah, it really is nuts. Uh, well that's, that's,

[00:25:39] that's cool. Yeah. Cause we don't want that this, this fine young actor to be harassed for playing Abby. Uh, yeah, nobody. I wonder, do you think though it would have been better storytelling to leave that secret on the table? No, no. I think, I think this is a good storytelling because I need, I need the, the, for the tension to Ram, I need to know what the points of views of these two characters are so that I can kind of project where they're going to cross. Like I know they're going to cross, right? I know their trajectories are

[00:26:07] going to cross when, how, and where is what is going to be the delighting and the surprising and the, oh my God, uh, you know, thing. Right. But if I didn't know that it, the, the shock value, yeah, it wouldn't work. I don't think it would work. Okay. This works better for me. Fair enough. Why don't we skip some time? Three months later, Ellie's injuries have healed, but she's barred from leaving the hospital until she talks to Gail, who she eventually placates with textbook right answers. Ellie returns to Joel's house going through

[00:26:37] his belongings and taking his revolver until Dina arrives to bring cookies and Intel. The WL, WLF or wolves, uh, are the Washington liberation front from Seattle and Dina knows their names or most of them at least. Ellie wants to go after Abby. Something that you said earlier, which I'm sort of in agreement with is not only did we time

[00:27:02] skip, but we play skipped and it wasn't, I don't know if it would be fair to call it jetpacking because they showed us the scenes, right? They showed us several cut scenes saying they're moving across the landscape. Yeah. But what I like about the whole thing and the, and the whole setup aspect of this show or this, sorry, this episode is that these are appropriate time jumps. These are appropriate times to heal. These are appropriate times for seasons

[00:27:29] to change and there's stuff going on that we don't really need to know. We're zeroing in on the important moments and we're zeroing in on the point on the story beats that are really explaining to us the point of view of the authors of the story. That's right. Uh, they actually added the time skip in the show. Uh, and part of that is that there was no destruction of Jackson in the game. Right. And so Ellie was just, and she wasn't that injured. So they just like, she was like, I just gotta go. Yeah. You

[00:27:58] know, I can't wait. The other mechanic I really like with the three month time skip in the hospital thing was with Dina because now we have this great character beat between them where Dina's like, I'm going to piss you off. So here's some cookies and, and then I'm going to show up and be your best friend and ride, literally ride or die. Right. We are

[00:28:23] literally going to ride or die on this one. And, uh, that without that three months and without that little honesty bit, uh, I wasn't going to, I didn't tell anybody else. I was telling you first, I was saving it so that you could heal that. Uh, I felt that mechanically also was a very smart decision for the writers to use that time jump indirectly as well. I thought that was very smart. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think it's good again. Like I know people

[00:28:52] are like, well, I don't want a jetpacking, but like, do you really want to see them just camp for three months? Right. I just, I just don't think that you really, you, you know, this is why we're viewers and they're making the show because they can tell us you don't want this. Yeah. And sometimes like, I bet you didn't think you wanted Joel to die, but I guarantee you, you're going to have a good story out of it. Yeah. And that's, that's the point of a storyteller is not to give you what you want, but what you need. The

[00:29:20] only thing that I'm sad about, uh, potentially reframing our focus away to Seattle is that I'm not going to get to see Stefan Chang flex his big guns when Tommy can't pound in that steak. We got Jesse over there, you know, step aside old man. But the future is Jesse, right? Well, who knows if we're going to see him again or Tommy or around these people. Yeah. I mean,

[00:29:46] I know. Yeah, of course you do. Do you know? And no, I do not. And I do not want to know. I want to be surprised and delighted. And so that's why I'm really trying to be careful about going on the internet with anything on the show. Yeah. Don't just, just stay away from Google. Even, even looking up Steven Chang's name today, I almost got spoiled. Don't do it. Yeah. So, but I had to know who, who, who owned those arms because those are

[00:30:12] some nice biceps. Uh, I, I, I love Gail. Sorry. What? That was a ridiculous statement. I'm fawning. What do you want? Keep, keep going. Keep going. Um, Gail. She's a great character. She's a national treasure. I mean, look, Catherine O'Hara is, is a national treasure of the real world. And so of course her character is going to be great. Again, game, uh, show edition,

[00:30:39] not in the game. I think great edition. I love, I really loved, oh my God. I loved Ellie being like, I'm fine. Well, the speed at which you said that suggests that you're not. And she goes, Hmm, let me consider a minute. Like it was so good. Ellie, Ellie is too smart for her own good, you know? And this is, this is something that you, you see with people who are intelligent in therapy is that they learn to give the right answers and they don't get treatment. Right. And that's,

[00:31:08] and, and the therapist, look, the therapist usually sees right through it, but there's really nothing you could do about that. Right. And maybe there is. And you just, well, you're, you're, you're smart like Gail and you, you play, right? You know, you, you know, it's a little sort of cat and mousy game and, and, uh, you, you develop your little tricks and whatnot. Yeah. I know it's later, but I didn't really bring it in. I don't think I even wrote in, uh, later so we could

[00:31:33] talk about their little baseball scene later. Um, it just, I love the way that she goes, I'm supposed to have a therapist so that I can upload and they're like, well, what do you do? I drink a lot and I smoke as much as I can. Uh, that is the definition of no Fs left to give. I'm the only psychotherapist in this place. I got to do what I got to do. I wouldn't suggest doing this in real life. No, no, no. But, uh, you know, in the zombie apocalypse, I think whatever substances you

[00:32:02] want to take are fair game. You're in your, uh, your partner, husband, whatever was brutally, um, uh, murdered by Joel, murdered, whatever, I, you know, whatever the appropriate down. I think it's probably the right phrase. Yeah. That's rough. Mercy killed. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, you got a lot of, you got a lot, you're processing a lot of trauma for the town. So it's, it's all good. Uh, and I just love, I do love the smart playing with psychotherapy,

[00:32:31] with therapy in general. Uh, it's, you know, we made fun of in TV, made fun of, of the sort of 12 step groups and circle, you know, small group, uh, conversation stuff. And now we're making fun of, of, uh, of talking with your therapist. It sort of is a indicator that therapy is now at a level where everybody can kind of partake in the joke, right? It's a, it's a, it's a bit of an indicator.

[00:33:00] And so, uh, I thought they played with it smart and played, um, Ellie's sassiness quite nicely with it. She's sassier in the show than she is in the game a little bit, but, but still, I, I think she's a little bit more grounded in the game and they're, they're really amping up her aggression in the show. Right. Right. Yeah. They're, well, we, we already talked about this

[00:33:23] a little bit, but the mystery of what Joel did is Gail's onto it. She's, she knows something's up. He's seen me a lot of times and she's like, yeah, but you know what it is, you know, does she, that's a question? No, I'm, I'm saying, no, no, I'm asking the question. Yeah. That's what, does she know? That's what I'm, that's what I'm asking. Oh no, I'm saying that's what Gail is assuming. It's like, you must know. Right. And I'm, I'm asking you, does Ellie know? Right. Oh,

[00:33:53] I don't know. I can't tell you, but Gail thinks Ellie knows. That's my point. Right. Right. Yeah. No, I know. I got that. Yeah. Cause now I'm, I'm not convinced. I'm not sure what to think if Ellie knows or not knows. She, I think she does know, then she's shoving it aside and saying, I need revenge anyway. If she doesn't know, then Abby has quite the truth bomb to drop on her, which would be a great scene. Right. When these, when these two meet each other,

[00:34:18] finally, uh, or when the truth is revealed, you know, cause the truth will out. So, but the thing is, is the whole process is going to in, um, embroil these two communities. Right. You know, it, it already has, and it will continue to do so because the truth is not out. Right. It's, it's, it's open. It's, it's hidden. And if there was some truth known about

[00:34:44] it, you know, maybe people could react a little bit differently. Yeah. Maybe Jackson would have a different opinion. Yeah. But instead they're just like, what if somebody comes back to hunt somebody here again? Yeah. Which is, I understand that threat to that, the, that concern of that as well. I honestly think that their assumption is probably just either, either it was somebody who Joel wronged as a raider because, because Tommy knows that or that it was, they came across

[00:35:10] them and they tried to rob them. Right. You know, just in scouting. Right. Right. But that's a, that's pretty intense. Yeah. And how much does the rest of the community know? How much do all the council members know? I don't know. That's interesting. Right. So. Right. I think they all know that Joel had like a checkered past. Yeah, for sure. I did love when Ellie was leaving the hospital. If you watch that scene over again, her face is light shadow, light shadow, light. And then

[00:35:38] she ends in all shadow when they cut the scene. And all the while the emotions that are playing out on her face are really good. Right. There's a, Hey, I'm free. I'm out. And now it's like, Oh, what did Gail tell me? And Oh, I got to go out and deal with the real world. And now that Joel's not in that world anymore, it was a, it was again, some stellar acting by, uh, by Bella Ramsey.

[00:36:05] Yeah. I thought that was great. I mean, look at the back and forth between Dina and Joel too, when she comes in fantastic. I, I, I love that Dina, you know, Dina can be really, you use the word narcissist later in your notes. Quotes. I big quotes around it. I think I disagree with that. I think she's, she's very bubbly and she's, she can be kind of self-centered, but I wouldn't venture her into narcissism because a narcissist wouldn't have

[00:36:34] waited to tell Ellie. The, no, you, you're reading my notes out of context. So, that's fine. Be careful. I put big quotes around there because I wasn't sure if narcissist was too strong of a word or if it was just self-centered. But I was thinking about it more. Dina really likes being Dina. Yeah. She loves who she is and she's playing in the world and playing with people and playing with people's emotions a little bit. Uh, cause she knows what she's doing to Ellie. Uh, there's

[00:37:04] no doubt in my, in my mind. Um, and I don't think a narcissist would have put themselves in harm harm's way to help Ellie. I'm not saying she's not a narcissist, but I'm saying there's a, there's a, a self-reflective quality that she really, like she looks herself in the mirror and she's like, damn, I look good. Maybe we're just not used to seeing confident characters, especially female characters in media. Right. Like I, I honestly, what problematic thing has she done? Like name one thing that was like really selfish. Cause I can't think of one. She kissed Ellie. Is that selfish though?

[00:37:34] Not really. But Ellie also. Right. But, but she says, I'm not gay. You are. So if you are knowingly playing with Ellie's emotions around that, then you gotta be careful. You know, if you want to play, Hey, I want to, Hey, I, I really, I'm really into you. I'm not sure that I want to have a, you know, get married and settle down and all that kind of stuff. But you know, if we can

[00:38:01] fool around a little bit, you know, if consenting adults, et cetera, et cetera, fine. But she, when she said I wasn't that high, that's that teasy thing where like I, now I'm not sure. David, David, the closet is glass. The closet is glass. I've never heard that. You've never heard that. This is, you know, I, you know, she says I'm not gay. I think the closet is glass. I mean, the way she kisses her, the way she's like, I wasn't that high, the way she's bringing it up again.

[00:38:29] Right. But she's clearly with Jesse as well. So she's, I don't, but she's quite anyway, we're getting into, I don't want to go into, I am, I am a cis at male. Like, I'm not going to argue this. It's a little trickier in the show because again, there was no real big time gap in the, in the game. So they were still broken up by the time she left in the game. So they've changed it so that she's back together with Jesse by the time. Right.

[00:38:55] Or at least she has been back together with Jesse at a point since, since new year's. Well, if somebody has a point of view on Dina's orientation, please write in and let us know because I can't say too much because I might know things. Right. Yeah. But I'm just saying if I base it purely on the kiss and the aftermath, the closet is glass. That's all I'm saying.

[00:39:19] Okay. Anyway, she's playing with her emotions, I think, because either you're into her and you're like, Hey, let's go to the next step or you're not right. I think, but also wouldn't it play the same way if she was like, I have considered myself straight my whole life, but now I'm considering maybe I love a woman or I'm attracted to a woman. Like, like that might also come out the same way, like dipping your toe in.

[00:39:44] Sure. It's fair. But she, the way she drinks out of Jesse's glass at the dance and the way there's, there's just a lot about Dina that is showboaty and playful. And, but, but I don't, if, if I just look at Ellie's position, she is, she's like, does she like me or does she not? She just told me that she's not into women, but then she would told me in a, in a, in a final

[00:40:13] good night comment that I wasn't that high indicating that, you know, there was more to it than it wasn't. Because when they say, when she says, um, Oh, you were drunk. I, you know, I, I was drunk. You were high. It didn't mean anything. And Dina's like, yeah, of course it didn't mean anything. I'm just curious how good it was. But, but they're not have also been a defensive, like, Oh, she said it doesn't mean anything. She said it's like, yeah, I know. But I, I read that face value. She was pretty straight

[00:40:39] about that. All right. Again, I, I can't really go too deep into this, uh, but, but I, I just, I think they're playing and look, they could, they could do whatever they want on the show, but I think they're playing Dina as into Ellie. I agree with that. She went with her partially because it's her, one of her best friends and she wanted to help her and didn't want her to be alone. And she knows that she's going to be a fucking moron and put guns in her pants. Right. But, uh, but also I think it was partially like,

[00:41:08] I want to be closer to Ellie. Yeah. And this is a, a several month camping trip with Ellie. A hundred percent, a hundred percent. And she's the one who initiated the kiss and she's the, I mean, you know, Dina's, Dina's playing into it, but she's just not being like, Hey, Hey, I'm into you. Let's, uh, you know, let's go. She's, she's, she's playing, um, hard to, not hard to get. She's teasing, playing a little hard to get. She's like on and off again.

[00:41:33] Yeah. And I, and I think that's all just Dina, right? That's just all who she is in general. Okay. Yeah. And I, and I am absolutely not denying the fact that Dina is into Ellie. I think she is absolutely a hundred percent into Ellie, but is it because, but is she playing straight with it? Is she playing straight with, you know, is she, is she being honest with herself? Is she being honest with Ellie? I don't know. I think, I don't know. I, I just got to stop now. Let's move on to

[00:42:02] the next topic. Ooh, this show, man. Like seriously, y'all, this show is like got layers. I'm not leaving because I'm like upset about anything. I'm leaving. Cause I, if I go further, I'll talk about spoilers. Yeah. I totally get that. I totally get that. You cause you either, even, even, even confirming the denying of something is a clue. Right. You know, I, I, what's that always sunny quote? I'm playing both sides. That way I, that way I always come out on

[00:42:30] top. There you go. So I, that's why I, with stuff like this, I try to argue both ways so that it's like, you know, who knows? Yeah. I did like the cookie thing though, because I thought it was not only, uh, uh, the peace offering, but it was also a communion. You know, they, she, you know, she ate the cookie and then, uh, then, then, uh, Ellie ate their cookie and then Dina gave the cookie, ate the cookie. And it was like, they're sharing an agreement. Right. I bring these in much

[00:43:00] better than Christ crackers. Yeah, absolutely. Of course it is. I mean, if you look at the face at Bella Ramsey, she was like, those cookies are good. It's like solid apology. Yeah. I accept your currency. Uh, did you notice that, uh, Dina has a watch that is not dissimilar to Joel's? I didn't notice, but that's cool detail. She has a round face watched with numbers on it with a sort of utilitarian band. And, uh, it, it very, it's not the same watch, but it is very visually

[00:43:28] similar. Okay. So, well, she's her, she's Ellie's companion now, so she better bring some Joel with her. That's right. That's right. Uh, and funny setup to, uh, WLF small enough for us to handle. Yeah, I know. I know. I heard that. I was like, are they gonna like reveal that by the end of the episode or is this going to be something that I have to just go home about? But no, they, by the end of the episode, they show you that they have like an infantry basically. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:55] You're clear. You're clear that this is a well-armed group of people. Yeah. You are very clear by the end of the episode that this is not going to be the easy task that they hoped it would be. Right. Well, let's talk about the Jacksonians. Sure. Uh, Ellie and Dina go to Tommy with the intel, which he's pissed that she withheld it from him too. Uh, but he insists on running it by the town council. Ellie tries to, to lobby Tommy and Jesse and Jesse encourages her to write down her thoughts

[00:44:23] so she's not so pissed off. At the meeting, the town is hesitant to send 16 of their warriors on a revenge mission. Seth stands up and shames the crowd before Ellie makes a speech about justice versus revenge. The vote fails to pass eight to three. So before the council meeting, and I mentioned this before, I really liked Tommy's pushback on, um, to Ellie about grief. And it made me think that

[00:44:51] grief is not a possession. Grief isn't a thing to be compared. I love him too. You know, I loved him too. You know, uh, and you could just say, I loved him. You don't have to say to, you know, as in like, you have to defend your position. I just don't think grief is a thing that we should measure or, or relate to as an object. I have grief and you don't kind of thing. If, if you're,

[00:45:19] if I'm close to you and you're grieving, then that's affecting me as well. Like, you know, there's a, there's a sharedness to it. And, and, uh, I just really liked the way that Tommy said, Hey, you know, he was my brother. I very well understood him. And so, you know, can't use these arguments with me to, you know, goad me into action or to make me think a certain way. I I'm very clear

[00:45:45] on who Joel was. And what's really interesting to me is this distinction between Joel and Ellie here. Whereas Ellie says, if he, if it had been you, he'd be halfway to Seattle by surprise. And he's like, no, if I were in trouble, he would be halfway to Seattle. Once people are gone, they're gone. Mm-hmm. And I think that's right. I saw this Reddit post the other day and I wish I wrote it down or like found the person to credit, but I didn't. So sorry. If you're somehow listening here,

[00:46:13] write in and I'll credit you. But I saw this Reddit post where somebody said, Joel is a protector. And if he was without Ellie, he'd have no to protect. He would just fall back into depression like he was before. And I think that's absolutely right. I don't think Joel would seek revenge on based on Ellie dying. Uh, and, uh, he might be hurt and lash out more, but he wouldn't, it would be in an, uh, in an unfocused way as opposed to a focused, I'm going to kill this person who killed, who hurt me. Uh, because that's what he was doing. And,

[00:46:43] the constructometer would have gone way down. Right. Didn't Frank say that to him? Uh, yeah, I think it was Bill and he was like, oh, you and me are protectors, right? Yes. Right. Yeah. I think that's absolutely right though. I, I do think that this is a fundamental difference. There's, you know, Gail later says like, oh, they're, they're so much alike, but I think this is a fundamental difference between them. Whereas Ellie is consumed by this hatred

[00:47:09] and vengeance. And Joel is, is much more like, I'll protect you while you're alive. But, but once you're gone, I got to let go. That is a very astute point. I really liked that. I think that's very true. They, they, there are some parallel, the, they're not complete parallel lines, but there's this point of their character that is parallel, but that's the point where they cross. I think you're right. Right. And so we don't have to take every character at their word because I think each person knew Joel in a different capacity. Mm-hmm. As we all, yeah.

[00:47:37] Yeah. And so Tommy sees this aspect of Joel and really is, is like, that's why Joel was going to get Tommy in season one, right? Because Tommy might be in trouble and he might still be alive. But if he knew Tommy was dead, he would have just stayed right put in, in Boston. Right. I can still hear Pedro Pascal, Tommy, you know, yelling out when they get to Jackson. Yeah. That was a great moment. Yeah. Great moment. That's good. I did like Jesse's wise words. Yeah.

[00:48:05] He's like, but, but the thing is people do vote for anger. Yeah. So. Wait, when? But she also got a little angry at the end, which is good. She showed some emotion. I think, you know, the pathos, right? You know, people, people are stirred by their emotions. And actually Seth's anger is kind of what activated them. Seth, Seth, Seth. Oh boy, Seth. He's having a bit of a redemption arc.

[00:48:32] Yeah. Yeah. Which sort of gets into the conversation that we had from, from last episode. And I think both things could be true. He could have a redemption arc and she didn't know him an apology. I agree. And I'm in agreement with that. So, but we can, we can talk about it when we get to the feedback. Yeah.

[00:48:48] I did think about though, the, uh, his point Seth's point, which is now WLF knows that we are, uh, here and accessible in a way, you know, there, he, he brought up a point, but then it's this zero sum game of, uh, us and them kind of thing.

[00:49:07] And then you get into this whole offense versus defense thing. I just had actually had a really interesting conversation for the season pass for Andor with, uh, Matt Cavanaugh, who's a retired Lieutenant Colonel who taught, who used to teach military strategy.

[00:49:24] And we were talking about this with, you know, small groups and hyperfactionalism and this idea that, uh, uh, if you want something and you have the means, you know, that's there's talking about strategy and this idea in this world that here are these two communities. If they were geographically closer, would they have fought already? You know, the, the only reason they don't know about each other and haven't interacted is because of this, you know, two big mountain ranges, basically one and a half brown mountain ranges. It depends on how you count them.

[00:49:54] Uh, I, I do think Jackson is less of a conquering community and more of a welcoming community, you know? Absolutely. They don't, they've gone out and pick a fight. No. They, we saw at the beginning of this episode of them bringing in refugees. Right. Right. Right. Where last season they were more standoffish and trying to be just on their own this time. Now I think they're stable and feeling more like, okay, we can bring people in.

[00:50:21] And I think that's just a resources thing. Like they just didn't have the resources to bring in more people. Right. At the time. And they didn't have defenses. So like if they were raiders trying to get in, they get in and you're screwed. And your best defense is an offense then is having active strong patrols out patrolling your borders. Marking your territory. Whereas now you have, you have actually like a town. You have, you have patrols.

[00:50:46] You have, you have all this infrastructure and so you don't have to be quite as cautious. You can, you can be cautious, but there's people on the ramparts looking down with guns. Right. Right. And right. And the regular patrols and everything. And I thought about this too, you know, Seattle is a, the WF. They're a community. No matter what we think of them, whether we have the, whether we share their values or disagree with their values.

[00:51:10] But then is it right to send people from Jackson on this murder mission, you know, or this mission to avenge Joel's death? So I don't disagree with the council's decision there. So, you know, I don't know. I don't, you know, I don't know that it's a good idea to send 16 people to go murder some other people. Is that justice? I don't know. Maureen D raised an interesting point. That's like, why 16 or nothing to go to Seattle?

[00:51:41] Why not eight? Right. I think, all right, I'm going to defend the show here, but I could see it your way, Maureen. I think maybe they say like 16 is the minimum we could do where we feel like we could take these people. Right. Four, eight, 12. Yeah. So, I mean, if you think of two squads of eight, so now you have, and then you have medics in both.

[00:52:07] So that's effectively seven fighting people plus a leader on each. So that's two. So that's five. So you get sort of fire teams of five. It makes sense to me that you would, you would do eight and eight. And then that way they're supporting each other and they're integrated. I'm sure somebody thought about that. I also think it's completely predictable. Like Tommy and Maria could both have predicted that Ellie would just go off on her own. Whoa, a hundred percent.

[00:52:34] I don't know why anyone thought that, like all they were really voting on was whether to give Ellie backup or not. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the town knew that. And that's a little shameful that they didn't send her anybody. Or they could have just said, we're not going to send 16 people, but we'll give you a horse and provisions and, you know, we'll help you plan it or something like that. Like don't sneak off in the middle of the night. Don't have to steal supplies. And yeah, I think the town could have said, do you want to, do you want to go? Okay.

[00:53:03] You're a free citizen of this town. Right. You're, you're, you're owed a certain amount of something here. We'll give you what you need. Uh, we're not necessarily sanctioning you, but if you choose to leave, we're not going to, we're not going to make you leave with nothing in your pockets. Right. I mean, at the same time, like should Ellie be forced to not draw on the resources of the community that's already struggling if it's just for a vengeance quest for her herself?

[00:53:32] That's like, I could see both sides here. Yeah. Yeah. So you're very good point. That's a very good point. Do you think Jesse voted no? Yes. Absolutely. I think Jesse voted no. He voted no. Even he hung his head a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, Jesse voted no. Yeah. A hundred percent. I think Tommy might've even voted no. Yeah. Well, she got three. We don't, yeah. We didn't get any other indication. There's a bunch of people we don't know on that council. So. Yeah. I could see a number of people voting yes.

[00:54:02] And we only know three of the council. So. Yeah. All right. Well, let's take another break and then we'll come back and go to Seattle. So we're on the West coast, baby.

[00:54:31] The best coast. Well, that's incorrect. I'm, I'm from Seattle. I actually born in Seattle. So. And I'm a happy New Englander transplant. Yeah. Now you're on the best. And now that you're on the real best coast. I'm in the East coast. Yes. I enjoy it here. Although West coast has the best rap. I'll, I'll, I'll die on that hill. I was just recently in San Diego and I was at a business conference staying at the hotel at the marina by the airport. Man. It was a bubble.

[00:54:59] It was like, Oh, it's sunny and people are out and people are beautiful. And there are boats in the marina. It was such a bizarre going from New England at the end of winter to sunny San Diego. Wow. I don't want your sun. I want my cranky winter. And it was like hopping. There were like multiple conferences happening all simultaneously. And there are people buzzing everywhere. Go enjoy your earthquakes. It was wild. Go enjoy your earthquakes. You crazy West coasters. I'll be over here with my winter. Yeah.

[00:55:29] I will take the winter over no earthquakes, tornadoes, fires. Yeah. All that stuff. Honestly, like I thought about moving to California for a while and, uh, and like it, it was like a realistic thing. Yeah. And then I was like, I am too afraid of the wildfires. Like, honestly, like, you know, what really sold me is when I was considering this was right when they were doing, they had that like black smoke in the air in San Francisco where you like couldn't even run the AC or open the window. Right.

[00:55:56] And I was just like, well, I can't do that. I love San Francisco. I just don't want to do that. Right. Right. Right. All right. So Seattle, a group of cultists following the teachings of a prophet seek safety in Seattle on their way. They are attacked by the wolves. Later, Manny scouts a safe path for the wolf army. A prophet isn't magic. They're just people that see truths hidden from others and share the truth no matter what the cost.

[00:56:26] So new faction. Yeah. Kind of new factions. Like we, we know a little bit about the wolves from Abby and whatnot, but the, these are a new faction. They do have a name. They did not give us the name. They have a couple of names that you can call them, but I don't want to spoil it. I have seen their names in recaps, so I don't know really how much they're hiding it. And it's just a name, but I'll, I'll let people figure it out by themselves. I did listen to another recap, um, today.

[00:56:56] I listened to the midnight boys, uh, and they mentioned the name, but I don't remember it, but they didn't give any details about it. And I didn't, I didn't try to think about the name at all. So, and I've already forgotten it. It's nothing crazy. It's nothing like really spoilery. Yeah. Anyway. So let's just call them the cultists for now is my point. Fair enough. Yeah. They, they are culty with those big cuts on their faces. Yeah. They've got those scars. Yeah. And they are kids. Yeah. They're, they're giving hammers to the kids and, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's,

[00:57:25] it looks pretty dark, doesn't it? But yet they're, they're like, oh, we are peaceful and we're just, you know, um. Um, so when I read your outline and you have this line here, which I highlighted, they're attacked by wolves and, uh, and I, I highlighted it before I did my second watch this afternoon. And then when I was doing the second watch, the guy does say, you know, the girl says demons and the guy says wolves. Yeah. And then I was like, damn, but they have a code. They didn't kill Dina.

[00:57:55] You know, this, is this really wolves or is I, I got all like conspiracy and making it more complex. It's wolves. It's, uh, I'm just, let's not just lay around that long. Don't, don't let me go hunting around in the closets and the shadows. What's the name of the guy that you, you focus on? Markley. Markley. Yeah. This is not a Markley. Those were the wolves. Those were the WLF. Right. And I, they had means to defend themselves. They had bows and arrows and hammers. I don't know. You know, they supposedly, cause I got thrown off. Yeah, but the wolves have weapons, right?

[00:58:24] Like they are clearly militarized. No, no. The, the, the cultists. Yeah. Yeah. You know, cause, cause, uh, Abby says we have a code. We don't kill people who don't have the ability. Oh, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. So I was like, why did they just slaughter these people and leave them on the roadway? That just seems very, but then it's like, oh, okay, well it's assigned to others. Stay away. Blah, blah, blah. So. Yeah. Uh, I, you know, waffle on that one. Yeah. A hundred percent.

[00:58:48] Uh, and the bodies are not that old when Dina and, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's. Yeah. They're, they're aligning the timeline by the end. Yeah. So that, uh, that's, it's pretty close. Um, and I don't understand it's the Seattle situation. So I will say this really quick.

[00:59:12] I felt visually like I was in Seattle, like when we were on the street with, uh, with the, uh, wolf people. Uh, I, I was like, oh, I kind of recognize that street, you know? And the, you know, some of the views, the Manny is up in the space needle that is actually on this, you know, I could see the railing, you know, all that kind of there. So that, uh, kudos for that. Cause it felt very, very good. But, um, where did they get the gas? That, that, um. Just go with that one.

[00:59:41] Right. Exactly. You're going to need to. Yeah. And, and I get where they got the military hardware. That's a striker. That's what that, uh, uh, APC is called. And the, you know, there's a big, uh, joint base just South of Seattle, uh, just, just South of Tacoma. So, you know, no problem getting the, the materials. Um, but then I'm like, why are they moving to a forward operation? Operating base. A forward operating base is, is like a satellite base that you extend out from your main base. So what is it there? Why are they moving to a forward operating base?

[01:00:11] Why is he clearing sectors visually from them up there? What else is going on? I mean, is it, is there really that many infected in Seattle still? Yeah. It's, it's a city, you know? Sure. So like you're always going to have infected in the cities. Yeah. That's just like a thing. I think, I think you're just going to have to accept that as kind of a rule of the show. Okay. All right. Right. In cities you're going to have infected. They did film all those in British Columbia. Well, yeah, of course they did. Which, which makes sense, you know, similar climate. Um, Vancouver, especially. Yep. So yeah.

[01:00:41] They, uh, they, I, I, you know, I've never been to Seattle, but pictures I've seen have looked like this. I know in the game they put like real businesses that are still there. Oh, funny. So that like, it would, it would like really feel like it was Seattle. Nice. Nice, nice, nice. Well, I can tell you the one, uh, one very accurate thing is everything is green and mossy and moldy. So they got that right. It's wet. It is wet. It's wet. And, and I do think that's interesting because the first game didn't really have that, that ecosystem.

[01:01:10] And now we are, we are going into this and, and this is, you know, a main location in this game. Right. In this season. Right. Right. Well, I, I do, I will agree with Perry Como though, that the bluest skies you've ever seen are in Seattle. So. Ooh. It's a very good song. I, if you don't know that one, but. I don't know it. It's a famous song. Yeah. And it's true. Cause when the blue skies come out in Seattle, you're like, oh shit, it's blue sky. Well, that's nice. Do you see it often though?

[01:01:38] So enough so that you're like, oh, it's blue sky. Yeah. That's nice. That's nice. Yeah. So we see Manny. Yes. He's being a little bit grumpy up there. Clearing sectors. Rah, rah, rah. I don't know. They, they, it's not going to be a nice climb up to the space needle. I forget what, how many feet up in the air that thing is, but you know, it's a, it's a significant, you know, it's a bit of an elevator ride. So if you get to climb that manually, that is a pain in the ass. I will tell you that.

[01:02:09] Good military training. Yeah. Yeah. He's definitely good militia training. Yeah. He's going to have some good upper body strength. Yep. And yeah, I don't really have anything else to say about this. I think this is a lot of waffle. Yeah. So why don't we go to the final set of scenes? The escape. Dina finds Ellie packing guns for a rogue mission. She takes charge, pulling out a map of the route to Seattle and I'm the map. I'm the map. You should have pulled a clip. I know.

[01:02:38] And leaving to get supplies from their helper, Seth. The duo heads to the gate where Seth gives them two horses with supplies and shakes Ellie's hand on the way out. They visit Joel's grave and Ellie leaves coffee beans. They arrive in Seattle to find the dead cultists. What is up with the coffee beans? Is that cause Joel ate coffee? They did references in season one, but it was referenced a lot more times in the game, just how much he missed coffee. Okay. And when he could get coffee, he was like, oh, this is the best.

[01:03:08] Got it. There's like a line that's like, he would have sold half his possessions for a cup of coffee. Okay. And so she brought some coffee beans from Jackson. She put them there. I now remember that scene after they've left Bill and Frank's where he's making coffee in the percolator thing and she's like, oh, disgusting or whatever. Right. And he's like, this is the shit. Like you, you don't even know, kid. Right. Right. I honestly miss coffee. I stopped drinking coffee in November. Oh, wow.

[01:03:38] And I miss it a lot, but it's made my blood pressure a lot better. So I stopped. For sure. I stopped for a number of years. I did like a meditation course that was like a week long and I had stopped for the longest time after that. This is a long time ago. Long before I met my wife and before the birth of my child. And then my child was born and I started drinking coffee again. I drank a lot of coffee in the first couple of years, but I stopped partially because I,

[01:04:08] you know, my blood pressure, but like I'm still drinking green tea in moderation and it's a lot less caffeine too. Right. But yeah. I do a, we're getting way off track here. I do a, I do my own half. This is what the people come for. Hmm? This is what the people come for. Well, this should be a second breakfast topic. Actually. We did a coffee. Did we? Oh yeah, we did. Way back when. We can do it again. I don't care. Yeah. We can recycle that. I do a 50, 50 half calf plan.

[01:04:33] I make, I get beans from the same roaster, a decaf one and a regular one at the same roast and I mix them together so that I can have three to four cups in the morning. Whereas if I drank two, I'd be like, uh, so because I like the ritual. I enjoy the ritual of drinking my coffee in the morning. I miss it. I miss it. But now I have a tea, so it's fine. So, uh, we've, we've got, you gotta do the Ted Lasso, his reaction to tea.

[01:05:03] Uh, well, I have, I have green tea. I, I, I still don't really love black tea. Okay. Like English. Well, yeah. Just like Ted Lasso. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like it's fine, but it's, it's not great. I used to make a London fog when I worked at Starbucks. I used to make a London fog a lot. You know, the Earl gray tea, a little bit of milk, steamed milk and, uh, like a little bit of honey. Mm. Nice. Delish. Delish. Well, anyway, back to Seth and friends. So, uh, your, your friend Seth is back. Yes. Your best buddy from last week.

[01:05:33] That's right. That's right. That got us all into trouble. Indeed it did. Are we talking a little bit about that now or? I think we can kind of elide into feedback here. Okay. Cause we kind of talked already about Ellie and Dina on the, on the trail. Yeah, we did. And so I think that's all, all done. And again, just to be sure, I'm not calling Dina a narcissist, but I, the, the, just the fact that she's in there. So I just want to, don't, don't add me about that one. I'm going to say she's just confident and she's, she is confident in herself.

[01:06:03] She's comfortable in her own skin. Uh, but at the same time, I think she's having feelings that maybe she didn't expect. Sure. Fair enough. You know? Fair enough. And, and maybe this is one of the first times she's felt like, Ooh, who am I? Mm. Fair enough. I accept that. I accept that. That, that, that, uh, line of questioning. So, uh, Seth, who. What'd you, what'd you think of this before we go into feedback?

[01:06:29] Well, they showed him in the town council meeting and I absolutely knew that he was going to then, you know, be something. Um, and it makes sense now the whole, you know, build up for it. Um, and I want to go back to that, that whole apology thing. She, I agree that she's not obligated to forgive him, you know, to, to accept his apology.

[01:06:56] And there was a comment from somebody in a feedback, I think something about the, the fact that it, she wasn't prepared. They ambushed her with that. So, yeah, I totally agree that that was, uh, um, she was not a willing participant in that conversation. So that was unfair for Ellie to be thrust into that situation. Yeah. It was, it was quite an ambush, right? Yeah. Completely. It was, I'm not going to tell you what's going to happen until you get there. Whereas Seth had time to prepare.

[01:07:25] I, I think that was an incredibly unfair situation. Totally agree with that. And I think the point that I was ultimately trying to get is when people, uh, make those kinds of mistakes, how do we create space for them to move away from that when they have realized, and maybe he was forced into making the apology, but then during that sort of quote unquote forcing period, he realized, oh yeah, that was a really shitty thing for me to say.

[01:07:55] And I actually do feel bad and remorseful about it. Where's the space for that person then to move forward, demonstrating not just in word, but indeed to, um, to be somebody, you know, to change who, who the community knows them to be. And it's interesting that the show runners and the writers decided to continue this storyline and this element and, and actually have Seth be a supporter of Ellie's point of

[01:08:24] view to the point that he materially helps them against the rules of the community. Yeah. I mean, I, my philosophy has been, yes, we can leave people room to grow, but we are not obligated to remain in relationships with them of any kind. Sure. You know, if, if Ellie wants to just like not talk to Seth anymore because she was very hurt by what he did and she's protecting herself, it's totally up to Ellie. Right.

[01:08:50] And, and he's not owed, he's not owed forgiveness. He can take the fact that he didn't get forgiveness and say, I'm not going to do something like that again so that I won't need forgiveness again. And that's how he grows. He's not owed absolution for what he did, especially the day after. So David, we, we did get feedback on these and, and again, this is not a team sport here.

[01:09:13] No, there are, there's a sort of a spectrum of people who are more pro and against compulsory acceptance of forgiveness. Yes. Compulsory. Yeah. Yeah. So, and, and so I just want to say, you know, I don't want to read them in full because I, I don't want to, one, I don't want to ascribe all us to the opinions of, of various people because I feel like it has been kind of portrayed as a team sport, even though it's not.

[01:09:39] Um, but, but also like, I, I just think that we've kind of hashed this out quite a bit already. Right. Yeah. So, uh, Sarah B wrote in and just said, you know, back then and now, uh, you know, before and after the world ends, Ellie doesn't have to forgive and, uh, and he's wrong, you know, in whatever world is wrong on whatever world. Uh, Andrew V, you know, was laughing that, you know, we called it when we said we're going to get a lot of feedback on this one, which we actually didn't in email, which I'm actually pretty surprised about.

[01:10:08] But, um, you know, we, I think we got more and or feedback than we did last of us. But anyway, um, he, he called my opinion, the millennial one. And, uh, yeah. And, uh, yeah, I, I think he's saying like refusing a genuine apology is, is sort of like the victim gaining dominion over the, the person who made the offense that I, I, I just

[01:10:37] gotta say, I totally disagree with that. Uh, but like, I don't understand you're not gaining power over somebody by refusing forgiveness. You're just not giving them a gift. If you, if, if I say, I don't want anything to do with you and I walk away, I have, I don't have control over you. Any control I have over you is in your own head. You know, that's, that's, that's on you to be whatever person you want to be over there. That's how I feel about this. And that's, that's my philosophy in this. Fair enough. I don't know.

[01:11:07] You have any other thoughts before we wrap this up? No, I just want to make sure that, um, that everybody out there listening is okay as well. You know, I, uh, I definitely, we, it, it was a conversation that strayed into something that I didn't realize what was gonna, you know, people were going to have, um, as strong of, of opinions. I mean, it's one thing, ha ha, Joel's a monster, right? It's a, and, and we do two feedbacks podcasts about it.

[01:11:34] Uh, and that was, you know, trial of Joel Miller. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It was more fun and, and, and sort of lighthearted in this one, you know, and I don't know if the world just right now is, is very, feels very crunchy in a lot of ways too. There's a lot of, uh, stuff going on in the world. I'm just feeling that even just in my daily life and with, you know, stuff with, uh, family, school things. So I just want to make sure that everyone's okay. And, and they know that when we have these kinds of conversations about these kinds of

[01:12:04] topics, we're trying to come to them very honestly and authentically and actually have some conversations sometimes around nuance is not easy necessarily in this because you and I can have a conversation. We have an understanding and agreement, but everybody else is sort of listening in on this and it's the, you know, that weird positive. It's parasocial. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and like you and I, we, we had that conversation and then we were just like laughing about stuff later.

[01:12:31] And like, I, I, to me, I didn't take anything like adversarial away from it in the end. I was just like, okay, that was an interesting conversation we had where we didn't quite agree. Yeah. That's fine. You know, that's, and, and also like, I think whatever opinion you have on it, I think everyone can learn from deeper conversations like that. And that's, I think part of what the Lorehounds is founded on is this idea that we're thinking and feeling and that we're sharing and examining these kinds of things.

[01:12:59] I mean, you and I have gone through a lot and now it's you, me and Alicia and we, you know, we didn't explain to be in business together with each other. And, and move podcasts, hosts, and do all this kind of stuff. Yeah. So we have a shared history of trust between us. Yeah. Knowing that we can, we can do these things. And so, and so I, and I get that the show just maybe, you know, the, the show is tripping

[01:13:25] on so many levels of, you know, of all these big themes and stuff like that. So anyway, I just want to make sure that people feel okay. And if there is something to say, we read all your emails and we process them and whether they get on air or not. If they're mean, we're not going to include them, but if, but you know, if they're, and, and also like, we don't include stuff that's just like, I really liked this, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, Yeah. Just cause you know, I think we, we try to include feedback that's like conversation starters, right. That are, that are substantive.

[01:13:55] Yeah. That are like theory crafting or like an interesting take on a scene or something like that. And I, I think that's, that's what we're trying to do here. And I was looking over at the end or, um, for the episode three thread, there are some deep conversations going on really nuanced stuff that is very, that could be, um, Nancy spoiled them. Nancy has spoiled the listeners and now they don't want to send emails anymore. Right. They're all on the discard. Like there are some really fascinating conversations and I have to give it to the community.

[01:14:25] Everyone is being respectful. Everyone is acknowledging and being gracious and giving each other space and, and, uh, asking good follow-up questions and making good secondary points. And that level of healthy discourse in an online forum in this day and age is extraordinary to me. So I really just want to say thank you to the community for everybody, you know, just being able to, to have this kind of conversation where it might get a little, uh, uncomfortable

[01:14:54] or, or like, Oh wow, I really don't agree with that. But yeah, there was, there was some really great stuff that was really nuanced and like tough subjects, especially like you were saying in the end or thread. And I, I was really impressed by the community. So thank you. Thank you all. And thank you to our mods for, for keeping everything nice and clean. Yep. For sure. All right. I think is our last piece of feedback. Oh, right. Yeah. That one, he got it in just in Cincinnati, Joe. I didn't even copy it into the outline. We're right from Gmail. All right.

[01:15:24] Uh, we liked this episode and had some good character interactions and look great. However, some things this season don't make as much sense as I'd like. And I'm thinking that's because it's an adaptation when playing a game. You don't have to question. You don't have time to question plot details and you're focused on different things. And when watching a show, especially a prestige one, the council scene was good, though. No one seemed to discuss why this WLF squad only tortured and killed Joel. That's a really good point. Yeah.

[01:15:53] That's a really, really, really good point. Yeah. Good point. I was glad the council voted against Ellie's quote justice plan. There is no reason to think this group is going to be coming back to Jackson. They were clear with Dina that they didn't want to hurt or kill anyone else. Sending an armed posse to Seattle and attacking WLF is much more likely to cause future issues than just leaving this alone. In fact, I'm surprised no one spoke up during the meeting to say that they definitely shouldn't

[01:16:22] go after Abby and crew because successfully killing her could lead to worse problems down the road. Ellie setting out alone on a suicide mission is not surprising given what we know of her character. Dina wanting Ellie to have supplies, et cetera, makes sense. But Dina going happily along like this is a weekend excursion rather than a dangerous cross state killing trip that will likely get them both killed felt odd. The WLF squad was six going after one guy. This is two going up against six or likely more.

[01:16:52] And they apparently made it all the way to Seattle without any trouble, which makes it it would seem strange given how dangerous we've seen this world is. Cincinnati Joe. Thank you, Joe. Long time friend and supporter of the pod. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good point about that. Why the council wasn't having a attorney's general or what is it?

[01:17:16] Wait, what are the, I forget what the, they call it in the US government, the people who police their own agencies. Inspector General. Yeah. The inspector's general. That's I was thinking I was getting confused with her attorney's generals, but yeah, we didn't have an IG report like, wait a minute. Why is Dina alive and why was she knocked out? Yeah. And they only killed Joel. And Ellie alive. If they were raiders. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they would have killed, you would have assumed they would have just taken them

[01:17:46] and gone. Right. It's a good question. I didn't consider that. So thank you for bringing that up, Joe. I, I, you know, I, I will say I disagree with you on the Dina thing. I think she's clearly into Ellie and wants him alone time with her. And, and I do agree that she loved Joel and they, they said that better in the show. They, they, they reference it in the game, but you never really see them interact in the game and they do it better in the show with that. Absolutely. And she, she's learning from him. She wants to hang. She goes out on patrol with him. Da da da. Yeah.

[01:18:15] So yeah, she really, she really finds that, that parental figure, that male parental figure important to her. Yeah. So I, I think that it does make sense for Dina to go. It's certainly risky, but Dina, I think it's perfectly in our character. I think she's. The explorer needs to be out on the trail. That's right. I think she was impressed by Ellie's speech as well. Yeah. Yeah. So. And I love Gail saying like, oh, she's lying. Like that.

[01:18:45] It's not about justice. We didn't even talk about that. Yeah. Yeah. Total liar. Not about justice. We didn't even get into the whole nature versus nurture of it, but yeah, we'll, we'll maybe another topic for another. But I, and I also enjoyed like, we talked, he's like, well, there's a difference between lying and being a liar. And she's, he's like, yeah, I know. She's a liar. I said what I said. 40 years of therapy in the post-apocalyptic world. She leaves no crumbs. She ate. This is what the, as the kids would say. That's right. That's right.

[01:19:13] Are you saying that at school pickup to make your daughter cringe? Yeah. I haven't been recently. But. My daughter's too young to make cringe. She still thinks I'm, I'm cool. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's more for fun. We're, we're, we're still in the fun, like dad, you know, we're, we're not into the, roll your eyes silently and walk away. Yeah. We're a couple of years from that yet. So. Yeah. Get your hot topic gift cards now. Yes. Right.

[01:19:42] Well, let's get out of here. All right. Go check out the affiliates. Nevermind the music covering music and psychology every week. Great stuff going on over there. Radioactive ramblings doing some studio Ghibli stuff. I don't know if they're doing some book stuff soon. I think that would, that would be fun if they, right. And they were doing red rising. I always see, I always see, um, radioactive Richard talking about the stormlight archive, which I'm reading right now. So maybe, maybe they'll give me some companion podcast to go along. That'd be fun. That'd be cool. That'd be nice.

[01:20:11] Uh, we've got properly Howard coming back with a new season soon. We've got rings and rituals going to be back for more power at some point. And we've got, we'll shift dust doing Dune soon. I'm told. I'm told. Dune is always coming. And, uh, Dune is always coming. I am going to be on the Dune Minute podcast. Uh, with Alicia, right? She's doing her own episode. I'm doing the end episode. Oh, okay. You're doing it separately. I didn't know that. Yeah.

[01:20:38] Cause you know, they do, they do five podcasts a week of about 15, 20 minutes each long. And they cover exactly one minute. Absolutely only one. They stop. If the scene stops in the middle of a dialogue or whatever, that's where they end their conversation about the podcast. It's incredible. Incredible. Anyway, I, but when they have a guest on you, you're sort of there for a five minute chunk. So you're sort of there, a guest host on for the week. Okay. It's all recorded in one day and then they, you know, they chop it up. All right. And, uh, publish it out.

[01:21:08] And I'm going to be covering, I believe Alicia is doing something having to do with, um, uh, Alia and, um, Paul's mother, uh, lady Jessica. Mm-hmm. Um, and I'm doing the, the naming ceremony when, when, uh, Paul Muad'Dib, also known as Usel gets his name. Um, so that, that'll be fun. That will be fun. And I didn't mention, uh, Alicia's other podcast, Star Wars kind of timeline podcast, which I

[01:21:36] know she'd been plugging lately because they want some, they want some, uh, and or lore. People are asking for more about the Rakatan invaders. Yes. I was calling them the Rakatan invaders. It was the Rakatan invaders. It's like, I know I've got the syllable. I mean, she dropped a lot of knowledge on me in that podcast. I listened to it. I listened to that podcast. Yeah. Yeah. A great researcher. Alicia's always a great researcher, but. Yeah. I think she outdid herself on this one. So if you are a subscriber, that's live on your feed now, or if you're a season pass holder for Android, that's on your feed too. Right.

[01:22:05] And then I just did a video analysis of the TIE Avenger. I don't know if you got a chance to watch that. I haven't watched it yet. Okay. Busy day today. And I had that side conversation with Matt Cavanaugh, who was the retired. And we were talking about, we started off with a Monty Python quote from Life of Brian. Right. Right. I had to delete it from the soundboard just now. And so we talk about, and again, those are season pass or subscriber exclusives.

[01:22:32] We talk about hyperfactionalism in rebellious movements. And he pointed out that the Maya Pei Brigade, he was like, oh yeah, no, that was totally familiar to me. Like that's a bunch of young, you know, hyper young soldiers who don't have any leadership around them. That seemed pretty accurate to me. And I was like, oh, that's really interesting. That's very true. So it's Lord of the Flies all of a sudden. Yep. Absolutely. And I think we have not seen the last of the Maya Pei Brigade. You think so? Yeah. All right.

[01:23:01] I think they're, they introduced them for a reason. Okay. Fair enough. I think we're going to have to get the whole gang together by the, just like the Lorehounds have. Squadron style. Yeah. And squadron style it is tomorrow. Tomorrow night. I know. Happy Andor Eve. I know. Happy Andor Eve. So check that out. Doctor Who, can I just say, if you're a science fiction fan, this season of Doctor Who has been a blast. Like we weren't going to cover it in full. Nice. But it's been really, really good. Cool.

[01:23:28] Like they, they just did, I'm not going to tell you which one, because that's a spoiler. They just did a sequel to like a 20 year old episode. Oh, nice. Very good. And it, and you don't know that it's a sequel to that episode until like halfway through. I saw you guys chatting with Ian on the, on the production server and it seemed like you guys are having a lot of fun with it. So. We are. And we're doing shorter podcasts, you know, it's not, it's not as much. Yeah. Doing the light fast ones. Yeah. But, but it's, it is so much fun this season. I think they're really, they're really getting into it.

[01:23:55] And the most recent episode is one of the horror episodes, which I think is where Doctor Who shines a lot of the time. Okay. Anyway, I just want to plug it because it's a great show and it's at risk of cancellation. And I hope that we don't get that because it's been on since 1963 other than the gap. And I would like it to continue. Very cool. Sonic screw cast. That's right. All right. Should I give some shout outs? Go give the shout outs. Yeah. That's what I was going to next. To our discord server boosters, Aaron K.

[01:24:25] Tiller, the thriller, Dork of the ninjas, Doove 71, Athena, Ajalea, Tina, Lestu, Nancy M. Ghost of Partition and Radioactive Richard. They all pay a subscription to discord and then you get a couple of bonus. I don't know. They're nitro bits. They're nitros. What are they? I don't know. Boosts. Boosts. They are server boosts. Boosts. I think the other thing I was calling them is from Twitch. Your bits. Yeah, maybe. But anyway, they boost our server. You can donate and support other servers.

[01:24:55] And so they do that for the Lorehounds community server. So thank you because it makes the server a more functional space and makes it a better place for the community to congregate. Our virtual water cooler, if you will. There's a link in the link tree if you want to check it out too, if you haven't been there before. It's free to join the discord. I just want to make that clear. Everybody. These are just people doing a nice thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no obligation to boost. But thank you for those who do.

[01:25:23] To our Loremasters, they are our top tier subscribers, the people that help us hold it all together. Samarshan, Michael G., Michelle E., Brian P., SC, Peter OH, Adam S., Nancy M., Doove71, Brian8063, who's also known as Usul, Frederick H., Sarah L., Gareth C., Matthew M., Sarah M., Andra B.,

[01:25:48] Kwong Yu, Deadeye, Jedi, Bob, Nathan T., Alex V., Sub-Zero, Aaron K., Dally V., Mothership61, Gnarls, Kathy W., Lestu, Jeffrey B., Elisa Yu, Neil F., Ben B., Scott F., Stephen N., Julia F., Kali S., Ilmaril, and forward slash Tim, forever last but never least, Adrian. Thank you all so very much.

[01:26:16] Whether you're a subscriber or not, whether you're a lore master or a lore founder or a lore hound or whatever, thank you for being here. Thank you for participating in the life of this community. We really appreciate it. See you all later. The Lore Hounds Podcast is produced and published by The Lore Hounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact.

[01:26:41] Get early and ad-free access to all Lore Hounds Podcasts at patreon.com slash the lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. It's underway. Excellent. If we release three episodes per week, the Lore Hounds will never be able to cover every episode.

[01:27:10] The Imperial Forces will crush the rebellion before it begins. Stand by. We're picking up something on our scanners. Echo Squadron reporting in. Delta Squadron on your left. Jango Squadron on your six. With Imperial Forces coming in fast, we're calling all Rebels to join the fight this season. Starting after the April 22nd premiere, you'll hear three full breakdowns for each week's episodes of Andor Season 2. Each podcast will be led by one of our squadron leaders, Alicia, David, and John.

[01:27:38] We'll be bringing in new and familiar voices to fill out the roster. Search for The Lore Hounds on any podcast platform to join us in a galaxy far, far away. And don't forget to check out our season pass for even more content like our Holocron bonus pods. It's good news for anyone except Darth Vader.