The Penguin - S01E04–06 - Cent'Anni, Homecoming, & Gold Summit - DCUniverse

[00:00:00] Hey everyone, future editor David here, just dropping in. We had a technical issue with the recording and so my microphone wasn't picking up correctly and it got recorded on a different source so my audio sounds a little funky this time. Apologies for that. We'll get that corrected on the next one. Otherwise, enjoy the episode. Talk to you soon.

[00:00:40] Welcome to the DC Universe, a comics versus podcast where the Lorehounds your guides to Gotham City's latest party bills. I'm David.

[00:00:49] And I'm Alicia and picking up where we left off a couple weeks ago this time, we're taking a look at episodes four through six of the HBO limited series The Penguin. Those are the episodes CentAnni, Homecoming and Gold Summit.

[00:01:04] Make sure you're caught up before listening on because we're going to get right into spoiler territory.

[00:01:10] John is unfortunately a bit too busy this week, but he'll be joining us again for our episodes seven and eight breakdown with his thoughts in the rest of the series.

[00:01:18] I think John has even threatened that he might catch up with the series before.

[00:01:23] Ooh.

[00:01:23] We'll see, we'll see.

[00:01:25] Gets another one. Sucks another one in.

[00:01:28] We want to hear your thoughts as well. Send feedback to lorehounds at the lorehounds.com. Voicemails are also encouraged or head over to our website and use the contact form there.

[00:01:41] Please do also join the conversation on our discord server where we're talking about the penguin, Agatha and whatever else you're reading, watching, playing or listening to. You'll find links to everything in the show notes.

[00:01:52] Alicia, did I see that the Agatha finale dropped a day early or was that on time?

[00:01:59] It was on time.

[00:02:01] Oh, okay.

[00:02:01] But yes, I did watch it first thing this morning before spoilers got in my face.

[00:02:07] We won't talk about any of the details there. Are you happy though?

[00:02:12] Yes, I am happy.

[00:02:14] They broke Marvel trends with finales in a good way.

[00:02:19] Oh, that's good. All right. I'm happy to hear that. Especially with these two comic spin outs.

[00:02:27] Now, spin outs in the right way. Like these are these, you know, hybrid projects, I guess, in a way, because they're not following mainline stories, right?

[00:02:36] They're, um, the Agatha is, is part of the MCU.

[00:02:39] Right. But I mean, out of the comic book stuff, right? Like they're, they're creating, they're weaving new stories.

[00:02:44] Oh, sure. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Yeah. They, they play flat, fast and loose, especially the MCU.

[00:02:49] Right. So just, it just feels nice to have two. It's actually kind of feels nice to have DC show making a representation, making a showing along with Marvel and then having two good shows simultaneously.

[00:03:02] It feels a little bit of an embarrassment of riches.

[00:03:04] Yeah. Except this is not the new DCU, Penguin.

[00:03:09] No, right. But still DC.

[00:03:09] This is Elseworlds. Yeah, it's still DC. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:03:12] Yeah, exactly. But still DC. Right.

[00:03:13] So. We're still waiting to see the DCU if it's gonna live up to the hopes.

[00:03:19] Right. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed.

[00:03:21] Cause yeah, it feels out of balance when they're, when they're not representing.

[00:03:24] It was kind of a shame what was going on before.

[00:03:27] Anyway, we're here to talk about, uh, Chintani, Homecoming and Gold Summit.

[00:03:32] Hopefully I got my Italian right there.

[00:03:34] Uh, I've heard some other podcasts butcher that.

[00:03:37] So I was like really nervous.

[00:03:39] Anyway, um, let's just set the episodes really quick.

[00:03:43] Uh, Chintani is all about how Sophia winds up in Arkham and then getting her revenge after 10 years.

[00:03:50] Homecoming is where Oz takes out the heart of the Moroni family and then goes into hiding and then finds his base.

[00:03:59] And then Gold Summit, our most recent episode is where Oz gathers his allies and enemies alike

[00:04:06] and getting his new bliss business off the ground.

[00:04:10] We're going to kind of go through this in a character based discussion and more of a meta narrative rather than a scene by scene or episode by episode.

[00:04:21] And I know, uh, Jean did send in some written thoughts.

[00:04:25] Uh, Alicia, do you want to read his notes really quick?

[00:04:28] Sure.

[00:04:29] He says this series is amazing and all of the actors should win awards.

[00:04:33] Just two things that I want to say.

[00:04:35] Sophia is frightening and Oz is as well, but in a different way with us.

[00:04:39] He tries to disarm you with his fast talking and compliments.

[00:04:43] Folks like that are harder to deal with because they hide their contempt for you until it boils over and then boom, they explode.

[00:04:50] Sophia, you see it coming and she doesn't care at all that you see her coming at you.

[00:04:54] She isn't trying to hide anything at all.

[00:04:56] And she wants you to know she isn't hiding anything.

[00:04:59] And I think that Oz hugging Vic is my favorite moment when he tells him to look up, meet his eyes, don't look down and then embraces him after Vic just killed for the first time.

[00:05:10] That is some real gangster shit right there.

[00:05:14] Murder, theft, drug deals, stick up, etc.

[00:05:17] You do it the first time and you feel bad, sad, you feel afraid.

[00:05:21] But then the guy who has taken you under his wing, showing you the ins and outs of the game embraces you and whispers to you in a loving way that it gets easier.

[00:05:30] That's it. You're done. You're in.

[00:05:32] And now Vic is in for the first time.

[00:05:34] I'm afraid for him.

[00:05:35] This is great stuff.

[00:05:37] Have a dope pod and I can't wait to hear y'all break it down.

[00:05:41] Peace.

[00:05:42] All right. Good, good notes and looking forward to hearing Jean's final wrap up thoughts.

[00:05:47] What are your overall takes?

[00:05:50] And then there's a bunch of stuff in Jean's comments here that I think we'll, we'll end up picking through when we get into the full discussion.

[00:05:56] But where are you at?

[00:05:58] Yeah, I think that especially, I mean, for me, Sophia is, I, yeah, both of them are, are really fascinating characters.

[00:06:08] You know, like I said, okay, this is getting me to understand a little bit better the crime genre because like I'm, I'm rooting for a murderer to get the entire city addicted to drugs while also rooting for another murderer to beat him to it.

[00:06:23] And then for them to like brutalize each other in the process.

[00:06:28] Yeah.

[00:06:29] I mean, I think, um, Trentani, the, you know, the Arkham episode that is my favorite in the series so far.

[00:06:35] That was a really, really powerful just seeing the entire transformation of Sophia and you know how she fought against it and then finally gave into it and how she's trying to still, she, she's like, okay, I'm no longer the good girl that I was, you know,

[00:06:52] giving speeches for charity, but she's still trying to do it on her own terms in a way that where she can live with herself.

[00:07:00] And I agree with Sean that she probably, she has, I would say she has more of a moral compass.

[00:07:06] Whereas Oz wants to be, he wants to be the good guy, but he doesn't necessarily have the character for it.

[00:07:16] He has the desire more than the character and she has both, but it's just been corrupted through this Arkham lens.

[00:07:23] Mm hmm.

[00:07:26] Yeah.

[00:07:26] What do you think?

[00:07:27] I think this is a really great series.

[00:07:32] This is one of those unexpected surprises in the year.

[00:07:35] We get these occasionally, you know, we, we, all the news about what's coming out this year.

[00:07:40] And I know that this was pre announced, but it's not at all what I expected it was going to be.

[00:07:47] And I'm, I'm really enjoying having a really gritty crime drama on a Sunday night appointment viewing the, they put a lot of effort into the product, into the production and the design of this.

[00:08:02] The acting has been on point.

[00:08:04] Some of this writing is just really incredible.

[00:08:07] Like John was just pointing out now that the whole setup with, you know, Vic and, and Oz in this moment, that's a really nuanced moment.

[00:08:16] And going in and actually taking the whole episode to give us Sophia's background, you know, in Arkham and, and, you know, her setup and, and, uh, transition or transformation into, you know, this, uh, feared hangman like character, uh, even though, you know, she's, she's not.

[00:08:37] And I love the fact that this is called the penguin, but it's, and I was a little worried when we started, even though I was enjoying it a lot, I was a little worried that this was just going to be a, um, uh, vehicle for, uh, the penguin.

[00:08:54] And that Colin Farrell, it, this was just going to be a acting vehicle for Colin Farrell.

[00:09:00] But as our point of view, we've moved around and we've gotten a lot into Vic.

[00:09:07] We've gotten a lot into Oz's mother.

[00:09:09] We've obviously gotten, gotten into a lot of Sophia.

[00:09:13] So yeah, it's the penguin story because he's the chief actor here, the protagonist in a way of like trying to, you know, it's his.

[00:09:23] Machinations that are driving the story and setting up all the conflicts, but the fact that then we move around.

[00:09:30] When we spend time with all of these other characters, uh, is really enjoyable and it really spreads the, the acting love around.

[00:09:39] I mean, all of these actors are, I'm just enjoying every performance that's on here.

[00:09:44] So yeah, I think overall, I'm just so pleased and I just have no idea how we're going to wrap this up in, you know, a couple of more episodes.

[00:09:55] There's such rich storytelling in here and I'm going to miss the show when it's gone.

[00:10:02] Uh, I, I love a good ongoing series, but then there's other shows, you know, I'm, it's going to be one of those bittersweet moments.

[00:10:09] It's like, you know, station 11 or queen's gambit, uh, those kinds of, uh, uh, short series that packs such a wall up.

[00:10:19] And I guess all along.

[00:10:22] Yeah.

[00:10:22] Is, is that the only going to be a single season as far as we know now?

[00:10:26] Okay.

[00:10:27] Yeah.

[00:10:28] So when they pack such a wall up and then you're like, wait, I want more, but then it's also just so satisfying that they've, they've wrapped it up.

[00:10:34] So I, I really have no idea how this is all going to, uh, to, to get wrapped up.

[00:10:39] And that's a good thing.

[00:10:40] Right.

[00:10:40] I can't see, I can't see what the writers have in store for us.

[00:10:44] And that means that the writers are doing a really good job.

[00:10:47] So lots of things also because of the format, like, well, first of all, I think, yeah, they call it the penguin, but we have three protagonists.

[00:10:55] I feel like here.

[00:10:56] Uh, and that's why we talk about all three of them.

[00:10:59] Um, but also.

[00:11:01] It, the format and, and the nature of this being an elseworlds project and everything.

[00:11:05] Uh, it just means that like the titular character could die at the end of this series.

[00:11:10] I don't know, maybe that's how this ends.

[00:11:12] Who knows?

[00:11:13] Like really they could go any direction and it would make sense and be satisfying because I believe in this team of writers.

[00:11:19] They've shown us.

[00:11:20] Exactly.

[00:11:21] That they know what they're doing.

[00:11:22] They know where they're going.

[00:11:23] Exactly.

[00:11:24] And that feels good.

[00:11:25] That's what I want from a good prestige, you know, uh, level television show.

[00:11:31] And then, like I said, I think on the last pod, the, the, this is great.

[00:11:36] It's pulp material, but it's prestige level quality in the writing and stuff.

[00:11:41] So, uh, it's, it's, it's hitting, it's hitting all the different sweets, you know, the spots that it's hitting the, the sweet, the savory, the umami, you know, all of the, whatever the things are in your tongue.

[00:11:53] It's a salt, fat, sweet, sugar, heat, something like that.

[00:11:58] Yeah.

[00:11:59] Yeah, exactly.

[00:12:00] So cool.

[00:12:01] All right.

[00:12:01] Well, let's do this.

[00:12:02] Let's take a little quick break and then we're going to jump into it and we'll start off with talking about Sophia's arc over these last three episodes.

[00:12:26] So let's get into Sophia's story.

[00:12:30] Uh, what do you have Alicia?

[00:12:33] What's, uh, what's on the top of your mind for Sophia?

[00:12:35] Yeah.

[00:12:36] Um, well, I mean, I guess we have to start with her episode for transformation and we see her at first, like just her, I mean, so, so many compliments to Kristen Miladi.

[00:12:48] And obviously everyone's saying the word Emmy with her name.

[00:12:52] And I hope that the Emmys are listening.

[00:12:54] Um, I would hope so.

[00:12:56] I mean, for them to snub it because of a content reason, as opposed to, I mean, like if we just look at her performance, it is extraordinary.

[00:13:03] So I agree.

[00:13:04] Yeah.

[00:13:05] I think this might break through and I think the presence of Colin Farrell might help that too.

[00:13:09] But, um, I think this has now been dubbed prestige enough.

[00:13:15] Indeed.

[00:13:15] But yeah, so we see a couple of instruments to Kristen Miladi because we see her in this earlier phase and she it's there to the costuming to what is it?

[00:13:25] Christopher Salon, I think is the costume designer who also deserves awards.

[00:13:30] Um, we see her, you know, she's, uh, she's a sheltered little rich girl whose mother has died, but she doesn't yet realize the full darkness behind that.

[00:13:41] And, you know, she is a charity spokesperson.

[00:13:45] Um, and then she, you know, obviously her mother dying is like the one major scar in her life at that point.

[00:13:52] And so when she gets called out for not helping women who died, like her mother by that reporter, then that's, that's a turning point for her.

[00:14:01] That's when everything changes.

[00:14:03] Mm hmm.

[00:14:04] You know, there's a conversation that's around on the internet about, you know, is this comic book?

[00:14:11] Is it bookie enough?

[00:14:12] Is it not?

[00:14:13] Uh, is it, you know, too much?

[00:14:15] Like where's the balance point of like this?

[00:14:17] I mean, there's people who say it's not comic book enough need to read more comic books.

[00:14:21] Exactly.

[00:14:22] But what I love what they're doing in the transition to the screen is they're taking some, somewhat, and I'm not a comic book aficionado.

[00:14:32] But they're taking some things that I think of as, as cornerstones of good comic material, which is, you know, character backstories, uh, uh, characters and their crews, you know, bringing their, their team together or even having their base or their secret layer.

[00:14:49] And in this one, we get that epic level backstory for Sophia that I would want from a comic book thing, right?

[00:15:00] And taking me out of time and then actually going in depth and in deep into this.

[00:15:04] And, and so putting her into her time in, in Arkham and giving us that, that, well, not even, even the Arkham stuff, just going back to like what you were saying with the, uh, with her mother's death.

[00:15:18] And then the unfolding setting up and then the unfolding of this mystery of, of her father's predilections, you know, this, this warfulness that is a really deeply traumatic experience for her.

[00:15:33] Right.

[00:15:34] I can't even imagine, you know, when you know, and then to, to see it and then to start to come to the realization, but then trying to suppress it in your own mind.

[00:15:43] Like, no, this really can't be true.

[00:15:44] Like my, my father really can't be this horrible and evil.

[00:15:48] Um, it's a really compelling backstory.

[00:15:51] Yeah.

[00:15:52] And remembering the scratch marks on her father's face after the reporter tells her that these other women who died had scratch marks on their face.

[00:16:02] And, you know, she, when she found her mother hanging, her father had scratch marks on his face.

[00:16:07] So this is where she, she puts it together that her father probably killed her mother.

[00:16:12] And then, I mean, this is.

[00:16:14] And then to suppress that in your own mind.

[00:16:16] To go, no, I can't, I can't do this.

[00:16:18] And then there's another woman there saying, you can help women like her.

[00:16:23] You can save women like her.

[00:16:25] And so, yeah, I think the right, she did the right thing morally in going to meet with the reporter.

[00:16:34] And, yeah, what do we think about Oz's culpability in tattling on her for, and I, I believe him when he says he did not realize it was going to end up with all of that, with her committed to Arkham forever.

[00:16:47] And, you know.

[00:16:48] Right.

[00:16:48] Um, but still, he, he turned her in to give himself a leg up.

[00:16:55] Where are your feelings on that?

[00:16:56] Yeah.

[00:16:57] Yeah.

[00:16:58] We, cause we didn't see him actually talk to, uh, Falcone senior.

[00:17:05] Um, what's, I forget is the character's name.

[00:17:08] I mean, it's Falcone, but.

[00:17:09] Carmine.

[00:17:10] Carmine.

[00:17:10] That's it.

[00:17:11] Thanks.

[00:17:11] Yeah.

[00:17:12] Mark Strong, who we're going to get to see in a Dune prophecy coming up.

[00:17:15] That's exciting.

[00:17:16] That, you know, we didn't see Oz actually have the conversation.

[00:17:21] So there's a, they're leaving it shrouded in mystery, which I, I like.

[00:17:27] Because then everybody gets to have their own interpretations of it.

[00:17:31] And, you know, Sophia has her interpretation of it.

[00:17:35] Oz has his own interpretation.

[00:17:37] We have our own interpretation.

[00:17:38] We have to like pull, you know, sort of, uh, we have to make a bunch of assumptions about what was said.

[00:17:47] So, and the way that I look at it is, is Oz's part of Oz's job.

[00:17:52] You know, I'm not, I'm not arguing the morality, but I'm just looking at the, the, the setup of it.

[00:17:56] He's this, you know, he's a driver and part of his job is to look after, um, uh, his charge here.

[00:18:04] And he probably has some standing orders about like, you know, keep me posted and let me know what's going on.

[00:18:09] And when he sees a potential threat, like, Hey, we've got a reporter nosing around.

[00:18:16] If he didn't tell somebody in, you know, above him, then his position is in jeopardy.

[00:18:22] And so the right thing for him to do was to say something, see something, say something, I guess.

[00:18:29] I don't know.

[00:18:29] That's kind of weird.

[00:18:30] Uh, but then, so, okay.

[00:18:33] So that's pretty, for me, in my mind, that's pretty straight.

[00:18:36] That's pretty linear.

[00:18:37] That's pretty straight where it gets really interesting is the fact that Sophia basically

[00:18:43] accuses him and says, you knew that my father was the hangman.

[00:18:47] You knew that he was murdering these women.

[00:18:49] You knew what his predilections were, and you did nothing to stop that change that protect

[00:18:54] me.

[00:18:56] You, you could have, you know, a reasonable person would have made some assumptions about

[00:19:02] what kind of danger I would be in if you then put me into, uh, uh, into that situation where

[00:19:09] my father knows that I know, you know, potentially about what he's been doing.

[00:19:13] And I think that's the interesting moral dilemma is, yeah, your, his job was to say something,

[00:19:22] but was it his, you know, what was his job relative to the fact that this guy's a real

[00:19:29] sicko, right?

[00:19:29] I mean, yeah.

[00:19:31] I mean, I guess his job is defined by the fact that he's paid by Carmine, but.

[00:19:36] Right.

[00:19:37] I would, it depends how he defines his own job.

[00:19:40] And I would have hoped that he would define his own job as protecting Sophia.

[00:19:45] And clearly.

[00:19:46] Right.

[00:19:46] That's not the case.

[00:19:48] So he might, he might not have intentionally, you know, sent her to Arkham or intentionally

[00:19:55] allowed her father to keep on killing, but in his own selfishness, that was the result.

[00:20:02] And he doesn't seem to really care all that much about, you know, he's like, Oh yeah.

[00:20:09] Awkward.

[00:20:09] Yeah.

[00:20:11] Yeah.

[00:20:12] And he's, uh, he's true to himself in that regard and that he's, he wants to climb the

[00:20:19] ladder and he has this belief that he's destined for something greater than just being a driver.

[00:20:25] Yeah.

[00:20:27] Yeah.

[00:20:28] So we, we got a, um, pretty brutal look at Sophia's time in Arkham with the electroshock

[00:20:34] therapy and everything.

[00:20:36] And, and until finally, and she has this, this, um, yeah, this woman next to her who

[00:20:41] goes by the name Magpie, who is a character from the comics, but they just kind of took

[00:20:45] the name and you know, they're like, here's an Easter egg for you.

[00:20:48] Just a little nod.

[00:20:49] A little wink.

[00:20:50] Yeah.

[00:20:50] Yeah.

[00:20:51] Um, but yeah, so she is being baited by the people in the institution, presumably at the

[00:21:00] urging of her father until finally she snaps and takes it out on Magpie who may or may

[00:21:04] not have been snitching on her for, for more of this bliss drug.

[00:21:10] Um, and obviously snitching is now a sore point with Sophia for obvious reasons, but then

[00:21:16] she just, yeah, she just completely brains her and then screams, I told you I'm fucking

[00:21:23] innocent.

[00:21:24] It's like, yeah, way to prove it.

[00:21:25] But I mean, she was right, but also she's just been pushed beyond her brink.

[00:21:31] And, um, yeah, I think this is she's become, she's become what she's been accused of, but

[00:21:37] in a different way.

[00:21:39] And this is one of those situations where the only way out is through, right?

[00:21:44] There's no there as she keeps pressing up against the barriers and realizing that everybody's

[00:21:50] been paid off.

[00:21:50] This whole thing is a setup, right?

[00:21:54] Carmine has dumped a lot of money into these people and, and to create this, uh, thing for

[00:22:01] her, which, you know, just step back.

[00:22:05] It's taking a step back for a second.

[00:22:07] What a piece of work Carmine is, you know, not only is he has this statistic, you know,

[00:22:13] murder fetish thing, but then your own daughter, your own flesh and blood to put her into that

[00:22:20] position and then to pay actively pay and actively set up to have her psychologically

[00:22:24] broken, if not killed.

[00:22:27] That is, that's seriously messed up stuff.

[00:22:31] And I don't think he necessarily realized or anybody would necessarily realize that this

[00:22:42] is this crucible for her and to take this, um, you know, little, uh, this little girl, uh,

[00:22:52] this society debutante and to run her through this gauntlet and for her, you know, metal

[00:22:58] to be tempered and to come out the other end with this clarity and this focus and this, um,

[00:23:04] this ability to survive and to be violent and to brutalize other people, um, to get whatever

[00:23:13] it is that you want or, or need.

[00:23:15] That I think is a great surprising.

[00:23:18] We've seen it right.

[00:23:20] We, cause we have the omniscient thing, but I don't think Vidi saw it.

[00:23:23] He didn't see it coming.

[00:23:25] Poor uncle Vidi.

[00:23:27] Do you think he really cared about her mother?

[00:23:30] Um, as he claims, yeah.

[00:23:32] Yeah.

[00:23:32] Yeah.

[00:23:33] But then, I mean, that was this show just really make things move along quickly.

[00:23:39] Um, like, so she does, she gasses the whole family, kills them all off, uh, except for

[00:23:45] her niece, which, you know, her niece Gia and you have to wonder, cause now G is a part of

[00:23:51] the system and is that going to come back and bite Sophia later?

[00:23:54] Yeah.

[00:23:55] Um, I just think of Agatha and something she said about a certain seven.

[00:24:01] Okay.

[00:24:02] Or I, I kind of go to either, I haven't seen the last two of those.

[00:24:06] Oh no, no.

[00:24:07] This is from, this is from an earlier episode.

[00:24:09] That's how the people who are stalking her, how they, their origin story is because she

[00:24:14] showed this kind of mercy.

[00:24:16] I, I, but then, and then I kind of flip over to, uh, Quentin Tarantino to, uh, Kill Bill.

[00:24:21] And, and when, um, there's a conversation where she says to the, one of the, the daughter of,

[00:24:27] of one of her, her, um, former compatriots, like, if you're still raw about this, come see

[00:24:33] me later on in a few years.

[00:24:34] I'll, I'll, I'll meet you wherever you need to meet.

[00:24:37] We can resolve this.

[00:24:39] So yeah.

[00:24:39] Will G come back and, and, uh, have a beef with Sophia.

[00:24:43] Yeah.

[00:24:44] And then of course, and then she leaves Vidi alive, but then she kills him like almost

[00:24:49] right away.

[00:24:50] So she does the whole, like tying him up thing, gets him to, you know, lend his support.

[00:24:55] And then when he, the, as soon as he starts to protest, she uses him as a prop to show

[00:25:01] people what happens, you know, she says he's the only made man at the table and then she

[00:25:06] takes him out.

[00:25:06] And that is both she and Oz are using a similar tactic of, you know, we, those, those people,

[00:25:15] they didn't, Oz says later, they didn't even know your name.

[00:25:18] And she's basically, she's doing the same thing.

[00:25:22] Um, so yeah, I have two thoughts there.

[00:25:25] One with the, about the Vidi situation, but then also two about, about this, what they're

[00:25:31] doing with their, um, both of their positions from, from taking over, uh, the mob

[00:25:36] stuff with Vidi.

[00:25:38] Did you read it that she was trying to get his support?

[00:25:43] I read it as, um, she just needed to get the cash.

[00:25:46] Well, I mean publicly.

[00:25:48] Right.

[00:25:48] Oh, sure.

[00:25:49] That too.

[00:25:50] Yeah.

[00:25:50] She wanted just to get the cash, but then when he offered, Hey, I can help you.

[00:25:54] I think she did and, uh, do that.

[00:25:56] But then when she murdered him, that was just a baller move.

[00:26:00] Like that was absolutely.

[00:26:02] He's like, Oh, okay.

[00:26:03] Be cool.

[00:26:03] We'll be cool now.

[00:26:04] Okay.

[00:26:04] Let's not get out over our skis.

[00:26:06] And she, you know, she doesn't hesitate.

[00:26:08] And I think it is such a powerful object lesson to the people that she's trying to get onto

[00:26:15] her side, not as a threat to them.

[00:26:18] Like I'll kill you.

[00:26:19] If you step out of line, it's more the object lesson of this is a new era.

[00:26:25] This is the, like you were saying, this is the only made man here.

[00:26:28] And we're tearing that system down and we're building a new system based on us.

[00:26:33] And then the whole thing with Oz, and this goes into my second point of this language,

[00:26:39] like unionizing the mob and this very sort of proletariat sort of, you know, smash the

[00:26:45] power.

[00:26:46] I can just see her like holding up a raised fist or something.

[00:26:48] It feels very, I had really confused feelings because they're saying overthrow the existing

[00:26:55] power structure and, you know, take your place, you know, and get rid of these one percenters.

[00:27:01] You know, they're telling us to eat cake and we're saying, no, we're going to drag you down

[00:27:04] to the square and guillotine you kind of thing.

[00:27:06] It really caused me a lot of emotional confusion, but in a great way because they're, they're

[00:27:12] speaking this very lefty progressive politics in a mob situation with selling drugs and taking

[00:27:19] over the same.

[00:27:19] Well, I mean, people unionize or M people turn to crime because they feel disenfranchised.

[00:27:25] So.

[00:27:26] Exactly.

[00:27:26] They're trying to take over the franchise, which is great.

[00:27:30] But that, that whole moment.

[00:27:33] But I mean, just that like, they feel like their power is taken away disenfranchised in

[00:27:37] that sense.

[00:27:38] Yeah.

[00:27:38] Yeah.

[00:27:38] Yeah.

[00:27:39] Powerless.

[00:27:39] Yeah.

[00:27:40] And then she claims a new power, the gigante power.

[00:27:44] Right.

[00:27:44] Right.

[00:27:45] That is such a cathartic moment for the whole show and for her and for her character.

[00:27:52] It's really, and the, you talked about the costuming and I think there were some conversations

[00:27:57] with around, uh, make, I didn't read any of these articles or anything like that, but I know

[00:28:01] I saw, uh, some references to them that they were intentionally styling her makeup to be,

[00:28:07] you know, and her costuming in a way so that it's this, uh, it is this costume for

[00:28:12] Sophia for her to, um, uh, present, uh, uh, it's almost like putting on a cape, right.

[00:28:20] Or your mask, right.

[00:28:21] This is her mask is, is the way she's also, she's also unmasking in a certain way because

[00:28:27] you see the more she's like showing more her scars.

[00:28:30] Like she used to cover up where she claws at her own neck and she has a mysterious scar

[00:28:34] on her shoulder.

[00:28:35] We're not sure where that came from yet, but, um, she's now when she's about to do her

[00:28:40] worse, she shows it off.

[00:28:41] And I guess it's also, it's like a battle scar way of, you know, I might look like this

[00:28:46] cute little girl, but, uh, trust me, you don't want to mess with me.

[00:28:51] Exactly.

[00:28:51] I guess I didn't realize that I noticed the big scar on her shoulder, but I guess we

[00:28:55] did.

[00:28:55] I didn't realize that we didn't get the origin story for that.

[00:28:58] That's scarring.

[00:28:59] No, I mean, it could be from, um, yeah, it must be from outcome of course, but we didn't

[00:29:05] really see it.

[00:29:05] We haven't seen it happen.

[00:29:07] And for her to show off that is such a great moment of psychological transformation.

[00:29:14] She's embracing herself.

[00:29:16] herself.

[00:29:17] She's embracing the pain that she went through.

[00:29:20] She's seeking a kind of wholeness.

[00:29:22] It makes me think a little bit of earthy, like where the main character, uh, uh, uh, becomes

[00:29:29] whole because the, they, I don't want to spoil too much.

[00:29:33] Anyway, there's, there's this whole thing of, of, okay, here I am.

[00:29:37] I'm this debutante girl and I have this dark, uh, uh, persona that, that was, uh, created

[00:29:43] in my time in Arkham and now I'm fusing those two things together or I'm, I'm accepting both

[00:29:49] sides of, of that.

[00:29:51] And that is now my power, right?

[00:29:54] That is, and it's on display.

[00:29:56] It's not hiding behind little, you know, uh, cute, uh, little neck scarves and things like

[00:30:03] that, but it's, it's full on display.

[00:30:05] And if you can't deal with it, we're going to have problems.

[00:30:09] Yeah.

[00:30:10] Yeah.

[00:30:10] Well, that especially, I mean, I love everything she's been wearing and it's been great, uh,

[00:30:15] on the official HBO podcast to listen to the, um, costume and hair designers and how much

[00:30:21] fun they're having with this character and how like her, like how her hair is transforming

[00:30:26] and things like that.

[00:30:27] And, um, but yeah, that, that yellow dress with the gas mask and that like Egyptian style

[00:30:35] eye makeup that is going to live in my head forever.

[00:30:38] That is such an iconic look.

[00:30:40] Yeah.

[00:30:40] And I can see the comic book panel of her with the gas mask and the yellow dress and the

[00:30:44] gas, you know, forming around behind her.

[00:30:46] She looks very different in the comics, but I guess they are making her by adding scarring

[00:30:50] and stuff.

[00:30:51] They're making a bit more.

[00:30:52] Well, I was just, just taking from the, what they gave us on screen.

[00:30:55] I could transfer, I could make a picture of my own, right.

[00:30:59] Of a comic book panel of, of that and just see.

[00:31:02] Yeah.

[00:31:02] Absolutely.

[00:31:03] Yeah.

[00:31:03] Yeah.

[00:31:03] I, someone should make that into an art print.

[00:31:07] Yeah, exactly.

[00:31:08] Um, but speaking of the comics, so in the comics, Gigante is her last name, I think through

[00:31:13] marriage and her maiden name is actually Maroney.

[00:31:18] Her mother was a Maroney, which is the family that she's warring with in this, but now we see

[00:31:24] her.

[00:31:25] So after she tells them, Oh, we're getting rid of all the maid men.

[00:31:28] Then she turns and makes an alliance with Maroney.

[00:31:32] Yeah.

[00:31:34] Who, um, I mean, they have like an enemy of my enemy thing going on because we'll talk

[00:31:39] about in a minute what Oz did to Maroney's family.

[00:31:41] And of course, Sophia now knows that Oz killed her brother, et cetera.

[00:31:45] Um, but it also feels like she's turning to him as a sort of surrogate father figure.

[00:31:52] Totally.

[00:31:53] That cooking scene was so tender.

[00:31:57] And I really had questions about how long that alliance was going to last and whether

[00:32:03] it was going to be that fruitful.

[00:32:05] And the fact that they, he's at his lowest, right?

[00:32:10] He's his, his wife and son, even though his son was a bit of a, right.

[00:32:15] Still a son.

[00:32:16] It's still a son.

[00:32:17] And, and, and just the horrific nature of it.

[00:32:20] So he's at this, uh, you know, low ebb of his life.

[00:32:26] And then ostensibly the person, the last person in the world that he wants to, you know, next

[00:32:33] to Oz walks in the door offering an alliance.

[00:32:38] Mm-hmm.

[00:32:39] So I was like, oh, this is going to be, there's going to be beef between them.

[00:32:43] But then for them to put the situation of them cooking together, which is how intimate, right?

[00:32:50] That's, uh, uh, for human beings, you know, sharing a meal together.

[00:32:53] That's, that's significant.

[00:32:55] It's, uh, in, in that kind of intimate setting.

[00:32:58] And then I loved the twist that, um, he wasn't cooking an Italian meal from his own cultural

[00:33:07] heritage, but he was, uh, cooking something from Nadia's.

[00:33:11] Right.

[00:33:11] And listening to Persian music and stuff.

[00:33:14] Yeah.

[00:33:14] And then, and then like saying a little, uh, I'm assuming a little Persian, you know, prayer,

[00:33:19] like, you know, saying like manja or bon appetit or, or whatever that, that version of it was

[00:33:25] a really cool twist and they didn't need to do that.

[00:33:28] And it doesn't, you know, it doesn't add a huge ton of things, but it just highlights

[00:33:34] it in a way that I wasn't expecting.

[00:33:36] And so it drew me in a little bit more.

[00:33:38] How much he loved his wife.

[00:33:40] Yeah.

[00:33:41] And then how much he's sharing this part of his life with her.

[00:33:46] So it's very intimate and she can't, and he's a very, again, like this, like you pointed

[00:33:52] out, we're rooting for terrible people.

[00:33:56] But he, uh, in that moment, I was just so like, God, he's just being so, like you said,

[00:34:01] fatherly and he's bringing, and they're, they're developing this very intimate and trusting

[00:34:05] relationship.

[00:34:07] Perfect.

[00:34:08] It was so good.

[00:34:10] Yeah.

[00:34:10] And, uh, her other alliance that's coming up is, uh, Dr. Julian Rush, the O'Rossi character,

[00:34:18] who he's feeling really guilty because we see in episode four that he, um, you know, he was,

[00:34:25] he was like the assistant psychiatrist in Arkham.

[00:34:29] And so he participated in what amounts to basically torture of her.

[00:34:35] And then until he couldn't take it and he quit.

[00:34:37] And now he's got some guilt and it seems like he's letting her work it out in their own sexy

[00:34:43] way.

[00:34:44] But this, this whole dynamic between them is giving me gender swapped Joker and Harley

[00:34:50] Quinn vibes because, uh, Joker was an inmate in the asylum and Harley Quinn was his, um, therapist.

[00:34:58] And then he corrupted her to become, you know, the icon that she is.

[00:35:04] Oh, that's interesting.

[00:35:05] I didn't realize that that was the relationship.

[00:35:07] I didn't know what the Harley Quinn Joker relationship was, uh, or I didn't know that part of the story.

[00:35:12] That's interesting.

[00:35:13] Yeah.

[00:35:14] So then I wonder if she's the Joker, I guess the penguin is her Batman.

[00:35:21] Uh, I, he, I don't know what to make of him.

[00:35:26] Because the penguin has, uh, has a, um, uh, sorry, Robin, you know, in, in Victor.

[00:35:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:35:35] Yeah, that's a good point.

[00:35:36] And that's what I love.

[00:35:37] That's what I even got the Robin origin story.

[00:35:39] Okay.

[00:35:39] Sorry.

[00:35:40] I'll stop.

[00:35:40] No, it's perfect because it's making me think about, again, all of these other little comic book, what are, um, uh, can, you know, are, are, uh, I want to, I don't want to use the word tropes because it often oftentimes has a negative spin, but just the, um, um, established.

[00:35:59] Archetypes.

[00:35:59] The archetypes.

[00:36:00] That's it.

[00:36:00] That's the word I was looking for has these archetypes that we're bringing in.

[00:36:04] And that's also more of that.

[00:36:07] And that's really cool.

[00:36:08] I didn't realize that.

[00:36:09] Uh, but yeah, I just don't know what to make of, um, of Julian Rush's character.

[00:36:16] Of, of, uh, he, he's, he's in, he's in love with her.

[00:36:22] He's enchanted by her.

[00:36:24] And then it has this really weird twist to it because of the experiences in Arkham and then his own twisted psychology and wanting to be punished and to be bound and, and all of this stuff.

[00:36:41] Yeah.

[00:36:42] I don't know what to make about it, but he's clearly enchanted by her.

[00:36:47] And then I think he's even more enchanted by the power that she has.

[00:36:51] Yeah.

[00:36:51] Well, I feel like, yeah, that this, all the characters in this show are loose screws and you don't know if they're going to like hold or fall or, you know, take the whole thing tumbling down.

[00:37:01] Exactly.

[00:37:02] Yeah.

[00:37:03] Yeah.

[00:37:04] So we've got Sophia dealing with the legacy of the hangman and we know she's not the one who was hanging the women, but you know, she had these expectations that she was.

[00:37:15] It makes people look at her a certain way.

[00:37:17] That's making her act out and ultimately behave in a certain way.

[00:37:21] So is she now any better than the hangman?

[00:37:24] She seems to have her own moral code, but she's killing a lot of people.

[00:37:29] It's interesting.

[00:37:30] The conversation with Eve, that whole setup was so brilliantly executed.

[00:37:36] The way that they delivered the lines, the way they moved through the apartment, the whole setup of her holding her at gunpoint and the tension, like you just don't know, is she going to?

[00:37:47] And you hope that she doesn't, but no, all of that.

[00:37:51] But the fact that then we get to see, we get the reveal of Sophia as not being that kind of person that, that, that she does have a code that she isn't gonna.

[00:38:02] And I think it's an extension of taking Gia out of the house before she murders the rest of the family, that she does have some lines that she won't cross.

[00:38:14] And that makes her more of a cogent, coherent character.

[00:38:20] Whereas a Joker character, it doesn't matter what the, where the lines are.

[00:38:24] Oh, there's a line there.

[00:38:25] I'm going to step on it.

[00:38:26] There's a line there.

[00:38:27] I'm going to scribble all over it.

[00:38:29] You know, I'm going to, I'm going to mess with the lines where Sophia is establishing some boundaries.

[00:38:34] And so we can put her at least into a, into a positioning.

[00:38:40] But the, this idea of her being horrified by what her father did, but also not eschewing it and coming out and saying, look, I'm not the hangman.

[00:38:56] I've stopped making me out to be there.

[00:38:57] But she's using the power of the fear of the hangman for her own ends.

[00:39:02] She's again, Agatha.

[00:39:06] So, but yeah, that conversation with Eve.

[00:39:09] Oh, I need to go back and rewatch that because the, the, the acting on that and the balance of power and the balance of forces.

[00:39:19] And in that, you know, Eve sets it up so that it's like, okay, fine.

[00:39:26] You know, we're going to have this conflict one or another.

[00:39:28] So let's just get it over with.

[00:39:29] And I'm prepared to, you know, meet my end if that's what, you know, this really is.

[00:39:35] And so for her putting herself out there and then the reveal of Oz, you know, of what Sophia tells us, tells her and us about Oz and the reporting back.

[00:39:48] And in the real situation.

[00:39:50] So there's this.

[00:39:51] But I don't know that Sophia has a full, I don't think she has a fair picture.

[00:39:58] I mean, not that it's not to excuse Oz's role and what happened to her, but I think she is greatly exaggerating in her own mind.

[00:40:07] And that's also to Eve.

[00:40:09] Right.

[00:40:09] And then, so that turns Eve, right?

[00:40:11] So that flips her so that she gives up Oz's location.

[00:40:14] I think also another, like there are little things that flip her, like just, so she walks in and you see Eve has this elaborate setup for her fashion, including like wig stands and things like that.

[00:40:26] And, but Eve is at this moment, just, she has her natural hair and she's just wearing sweatpants and she still looks great.

[00:40:33] But, but Sophia asks her, does Oz ever see you like this?

[00:40:39] And she's like, once or twice.

[00:40:40] He hates it.

[00:40:41] You know, and I think little things like that is just stick in her head of like, does he even see me for who I am and care about that person?

[00:40:50] Or does he care about the role I play in his life as his comfort?

[00:40:56] Mm-hmm.

[00:40:57] And I was surprised that by his reaction when Eve rejects him, I guess this is sort of, we're sliding sideways over to Oz.

[00:41:07] Right, right, right.

[00:41:08] If we're going to do that, I do have one important thing that I need to say about, about Sophia is that I have a bad feeling that her brother was behind some of the stuff that happened to her and that that is going to come out and she's just gonna, that's going to be it.

[00:41:25] Interesting.

[00:41:25] Okay.

[00:41:26] All right.

[00:41:27] Okay.

[00:41:27] Okay.

[00:41:28] I, I, I wasn't, I don't know that I see what you're seeing, but like, that's kind of like, that would be wild if they, if they went somewhere like that, that would be wild.

[00:41:39] I'll wager my internet points.

[00:41:40] All right.

[00:41:42] Well, anyway, on the, the Oz Eve thing that he got, he gets so upset when she rejects him.

[00:41:51] Mm-hmm.

[00:41:52] And I was like, dude, you, don't you understand this relationship?

[00:41:57] Mm-hmm.

[00:41:57] That you, did you actually put your heart into this relationship?

[00:42:01] That's, that's what I didn't understand about Oz's character.

[00:42:05] But then I, I guess it's that.

[00:42:08] He's a narcissist.

[00:42:09] Yeah.

[00:42:09] He doesn't, he doesn't realize that he is not putting in the same care and effort that he expects from other people.

[00:42:17] Mm-hmm.

[00:42:18] Okay.

[00:42:19] He thinks he can, you know, do and say the same thing with Victor.

[00:42:22] He can do or say superficial things.

[00:42:23] Like he can call someone else out for interrupting Victor when he's stuttering.

[00:42:27] But when it comes to him, he'll, he'll do that stuff.

[00:42:31] You know, he's a hypocrite.

[00:42:33] Mm-hmm.

[00:42:34] Right.

[00:42:34] And he's always in the right.

[00:42:36] It's, it's always him against everything.

[00:42:37] He's, what do they say?

[00:42:39] Main character energy?

[00:42:40] He's like.

[00:42:41] Well, he, he definitely thinks he does.

[00:42:43] Yeah, exactly.

[00:42:45] Yeah.

[00:42:45] Well, before we dig into Oz, do you want to actually make a quick swing through Vic's arc?

[00:42:51] Yeah.

[00:42:51] Before?

[00:42:52] Mm-hmm.

[00:42:53] So, yeah.

[00:42:54] So we, first we pick up with him.

[00:42:57] Um, he's been slotted into the caretaker role by Oz of, of Oz's mother, Frances.

[00:43:03] And so, and he's like, Oz doesn't even tell him.

[00:43:07] He's like, where can I take her?

[00:43:08] And he's like, I don't know, find somewhere.

[00:43:09] So he takes her to his friend Calvin's house because we, Calvin got shot by Sophia, as we saw on like, when was that?

[00:43:16] Episode two or something.

[00:43:18] Um, and so this is Crown Point.

[00:43:21] Mm-hmm.

[00:43:22] So this is Crown Point.

[00:43:23] This is where we saw flooding.

[00:43:24] And it turns out this is also where the Cobbs used to live.

[00:43:28] This is where Oz grew up.

[00:43:30] Um, and Frances is not, she's declining now because she is back remembering bad times and the loss of her sons.

[00:43:39] Mm-hmm.

[00:43:39] And, um, Victor though, he seems to be kind of thriving a little bit because we see his stutter ebbing as he gains confidence.

[00:43:50] Right.

[00:43:50] And yeah, I just, does it feel like he's more confident than he has been so, so far?

[00:43:55] Yeah, he, I think he had a purpose and he had a clarity of, of purpose of what he needs to do and figuring out where to, to position themselves and, uh, getting, and then having Oz saying, oh yeah, that's a good idea.

[00:44:13] Like actually that works out.

[00:44:14] Like, so yeah, he's, he's doing things.

[00:44:16] And then of course he's working the, uh, drug trade and then, and that's going well.

[00:44:22] And he's able to give pursuers the slip.

[00:44:24] So yeah, all in all his character is developing.

[00:44:27] And ultimately in that life, it's going to lead to the fact that there's going to be death involved.

[00:44:33] Hmm.

[00:44:35] That's unavoidable.

[00:44:36] And of course they, you know, uh, in just really nice, simple storytelling fashion, they just build up the squid thing.

[00:44:42] We know that this is coming.

[00:44:44] Right.

[00:44:53] And the directors are, how are they going to show that ultimate conflict coming through?

[00:44:58] And, uh, I don't know about you, but I, my pulse was pounding during that scene.

[00:45:05] Did you find that that was the, did they have the right chemistry there for, for that confrontation with squid?

[00:45:11] Um, yeah, I mean, I, before he killed him, I was like, oh, he's got to kill him.

[00:45:16] And which is where, you know, cause I am, I'm a chaotic good, you know, when I play games, like I'm not the murder one, but, um, they just lead the dots there.

[00:45:28] And, you know, I'm sympathizing, I'm empathizing with this character.

[00:45:31] And so like, oh gosh, yeah, dude, you got to kill him now.

[00:45:35] Like he's not gonna, he's not gonna stop.

[00:45:38] Yeah.

[00:45:40] But, uh, I do wonder, you know, I talked about Victor building up his confidence.

[00:45:44] What is that going to do?

[00:45:45] Uh, at the moment he's shaken, but then as, as Jean pointed out, Oz validates this probably in the same way that his mother validated this sort of behavior to Oz growing up, you know, like, oh, you did the right thing.

[00:45:59] You are strong.

[00:46:00] You are, you know, taking control.

[00:46:02] Um, so what is this going to do to his character?

[00:46:05] And if we look at the, the beats, the narrative beats that Vic's character has gone through, right?

[00:46:12] You know, they were stealing the hubcaps and he faces, uh, that first moment of death with Oz.

[00:46:18] And then he faces it again, uh, at the, with the sunrise moment.

[00:46:24] And then he's accepted.

[00:46:26] And then he has these various trials and tribulations of, okay, you know, I've got to, um, I have to steal this or, uh, you know, manufacture this evidence or handle, you know, drug trade or, you know, he's, he's jumping.

[00:46:42] And then, oh, like, you know, the, the girlfriend, uh, uh, trial of like, oh, you know, I have to choose, you know, one or the other.

[00:46:49] So he's making very, um, linear progressions on his, his character.

[00:46:56] Yeah.

[00:46:57] And then the question is, uh, where are we going to end up with Vic?

[00:47:02] Is what's going to, what's going to happen to Vic at some stage?

[00:47:06] Because I wonder, is he built for this world?

[00:47:12] He's choosing this world, but has he really built, has, has the world conditioned him to, to really thrive without Oz?

[00:47:21] Like if, if Oz wasn't there egging him on, he seems like a, um, a nice kid, you know, who, who would have normally gone about his life.

[00:47:29] And this world is brutal and life is short and, um, uh, you have to be as quick on the gun as, as anybody to survive.

[00:47:42] And does he, has he really been conditioned in that way?

[00:47:46] I don't know.

[00:47:49] So I, I just, I thought about while you were thinking, um, so they keep showing this, these clips from the movie Gilda, uh, you know, with, put them.

[00:47:59] Put the blame on me boys, put the blame on me.

[00:48:03] And Rita Hayworth is singing that that's from this movie Gilda from the forties.

[00:48:08] And, um, the movie is basically about a character who has to choose whether his loyalty is first to his boss or to a woman in his life.

[00:48:20] So I just find that an interesting parallel, but anyway, um, but also, yeah, I wonder, he says he wants to be one of the guys and on the action,

[00:48:29] but it seems like he's actually been promoted above them.

[00:48:31] So I don't know what he's talking about.

[00:48:32] Like you've got a, yeah, the way I, even though he's got, um, uh, he's, he's Oz's confidant.

[00:48:42] He still has to, you know, do his sort of apprenticeship, I guess.

[00:48:46] He, you know, he's still got to get the, he's got to still build his experience and Oz needs him to do certain things.

[00:48:51] And, you know, so I felt that, uh, that is all just part of his apprentice, his ongoing apprenticeship.

[00:48:57] And yeah.

[00:48:58] And, and the part of that apprenticeship is being able to take on challenges and problems on your own.

[00:49:05] And so when he says to, to Oz, like, Hey, I've got this problem.

[00:49:09] And Oz is otherwise distracted.

[00:49:11] And then he solves his own problem.

[00:49:14] Again, that's all part of his, his growth.

[00:49:17] That, um, um, that Oz is trying to, you know, see if, if he doesn't continue to grow, would he just keep him around as a quote unquote pet?

[00:49:27] Or would he, you know, but now he's really embracing him and bringing him up as a brother.

[00:49:32] Cause I think that's the thing about Oz is that he's fundamentally lonely.

[00:49:36] You know, he misses his brothers.

[00:49:38] We still don't have a miss.

[00:49:39] We don't have the soul for the brothers.

[00:49:41] Yeah.

[00:49:42] They keep bringing it up.

[00:49:43] So I think it's definitely, we're getting that story in the next two episodes.

[00:49:46] Probably I'm going to guess episode seven.

[00:49:49] You're right.

[00:49:49] Right.

[00:49:50] Which hopefully it will be, um, yeah, hopefully it's juicy.

[00:49:53] They've given every indication.

[00:49:55] I just want to know, did he kill them or not?

[00:49:57] Right.

[00:49:58] Exactly.

[00:49:59] Exactly.

[00:50:00] You know, you mentioned the, um, Gilda, uh, thing in the musical, there was another little embed, a little Easter egg for the movie, Gloria, a 1980 movie.

[00:50:10] And it was on the television and as a woman shooting a pistol at a car as it was driving by.

[00:50:16] And it's a movie about a woman who takes on the mob, um, and sort of fights back.

[00:50:22] And, you know, so yeah, there, the writers are, there's some background stuff going on for sure.

[00:50:27] Yeah.

[00:50:27] Very clever.

[00:50:29] Yeah.

[00:50:29] And, uh, Gilda is also a movie about, it's like the Casablanca with unlikable characters, you know?

[00:50:39] Should we talk a little bit about Oswald, Oz Carl?

[00:50:43] Yeah.

[00:50:44] Yeah.

[00:50:44] So we, we picked up with him with a Maserati funeral and, um, he keeps bringing up his hero, Rex Calabrese.

[00:50:53] So now he's tells Vic, Vic about it.

[00:50:55] So we know this is how Oz wants to see himself.

[00:50:58] But do you think, do you think he's Rex Calabrese?

[00:51:01] Do you think even Rex is Rex Calabrese?

[00:51:04] No, obviously not because he, because Rex lives in a mythology in a, you know, Oz has put him on a pedestal as something to achieve.

[00:51:14] And what do they say?

[00:51:15] Never meet your heroes.

[00:51:16] Right.

[00:51:16] You know, I'm sure he had his own shortcomings and problems, but yeah, he's a, he's a mythological character.

[00:51:25] He's a mythological character for Oz to emulate in a place that probably, you know, if you didn't have some sort of beacon or narrative to follow for yourself, that's a hardscrabble world to pull yourself up from.

[00:51:41] Uh, and, and so, you know, Rex fulfills that for him.

[00:51:45] Did you think with the Maserati funeral, I like how you put that.

[00:51:49] It looked very, when they shot, when they, um, were the camera in front of the car, it looked very much like a monster's face or it seemed very monstrous to me.

[00:52:02] But yeah, maybe it's representing, you know, the ugliness of the source of this newfound wealth.

[00:52:08] Right.

[00:52:09] Right.

[00:52:09] And I like the fact, I appreciate Oz's willingness to recognize the moment of transformation of saying, okay, that, you know, the past is now over and we are now moving into a new reality.

[00:52:23] And that means that we need to adjust and meet the moment.

[00:52:26] And the Maserati no longer serves that moment.

[00:52:29] The Maserati was a tool, uh, for a time.

[00:52:34] And that time has now changed.

[00:52:35] So I can, I can easily let it go.

[00:52:37] It's not a problem.

[00:52:38] He's just like, yeah, it's fine.

[00:52:39] Whatever.

[00:52:39] He's a good sport about the car for sure.

[00:52:41] But also, I mean, you know, Vic did save his life.

[00:52:44] That's why the car's messed up.

[00:52:45] So.

[00:52:46] Exactly.

[00:52:47] But then all, again, all going to the fact that Oz is not lamenting.

[00:52:53] It means that he's accepted the future.

[00:52:56] You know, he's accepted the now.

[00:52:57] He loves chaos.

[00:52:58] Like he's his happiest when things are going left, you know?

[00:53:02] So, um, and he also, you know, he seems on the surface, he talks about being a nice guy, but then we see when he goes to take the Moroni Santaj.

[00:53:14] Fine.

[00:53:15] That's all well and fair in their families.

[00:53:17] Right.

[00:53:18] But he kills everyone in the tattoo studio.

[00:53:21] Like even the artists immediately like put up their hands and he just guns them down.

[00:53:26] Like that is not hero or even anti-hero behavior.

[00:53:31] Right.

[00:53:59] Yeah.

[00:54:01] It's because of, of the, the sound and visual design rather than just showing us coming in with guns blazing.

[00:54:07] We've seen that before.

[00:54:08] This is a funny take.

[00:54:10] But then what I found interesting too, was the, the guy who, um, who actually ultimately captures Taj is Victor.

[00:54:21] Right.

[00:54:21] So again, Victor is proving his worth and he's extending himself time and time again.

[00:54:26] So he's the one who's actually puts hands on him and pulls him down and punches him out.

[00:54:31] So.

[00:54:31] Yeah.

[00:54:32] Yeah.

[00:54:32] And then we also, we see again that, um, in order to enact revenge, Oz will shoot himself in the foot.

[00:54:40] Like he has to, he, you know, eat, whether or not he got the mushrooms, he was going to burn, um, Taj alive.

[00:54:50] And, you know, hopefully with his mother, with him, which he succeeded in doing, but in doing so he,

[00:54:55] he ended up destroying most of the mushrooms who can't handle like a fire and whatever the chemical stuff that was falling out of the ceiling.

[00:55:04] So, yeah, he just, he, I don't think he has what it takes to be a long-term mob boss because he's too chaotic.

[00:55:16] He will shoot himself in the foot, um, in a fit of temper.

[00:55:20] And I think Sophia is more stable in that way.

[00:55:23] Hmm.

[00:55:24] I was recently, um, on a electric bookaloo pod with, uh, Anthony.

[00:55:30] Uh, he, you know, as, as all of us do from time to time, we get to join him on, on that podcast.

[00:55:36] And we were talking about a Tyrion chapter and in clash of Kings.

[00:55:41] And we were talking about Tyrion's character and how he is a really intelligent and smart operator, but ultimately he doesn't have the wisdom to see that some of his, uh, uh, um, plottings and, and setups that he's trying to, you know, the little.

[00:56:02] Machinations.

[00:56:03] Machinations.

[00:56:03] Machinations.

[00:56:04] That's the word.

[00:56:04] Machinations that he's trying, that he has are where the downside, where the pitfalls are, where the, where the little problems are.

[00:56:11] And so there's, it's a tragic flaw with his character.

[00:56:15] And I, and I think Oz is the same.

[00:56:18] He's really good.

[00:56:20] Like you said, in the, in the, in the moment.

[00:56:22] I think Tyrion's smarter than Oz, but yeah.

[00:56:23] Yeah.

[00:56:24] But I mean, look at Oz, I mean, they, from zero to a huge thriving operation in, you know, in the underground there, he's good at a, at a certain level, but can he actually be that, that top dog and actually see out?

[00:56:38] Because I think he, I think his, uh, the excitement of the chaos is always going to be his downfall because he'll rather, he wants to have that.

[00:56:48] Like you were saying, he doesn't want stability.

[00:56:49] He wants chaos.

[00:56:51] Yeah.

[00:56:52] And that will always, I do think Tyrion wanted stability and would have been a good.

[00:56:57] Agreed.

[00:56:57] Uh, head of state, but.

[00:56:59] Right.

[00:56:59] Yeah.

[00:57:00] But he's always disadvantaged because everybody disadvantages is him.

[00:57:04] Right.

[00:57:05] So he doesn't have the council of wisdom.

[00:57:07] Like, you know, he doesn't have wisdom because he can't have counselors to help him see what he can't see.

[00:57:13] Yeah.

[00:57:13] I see him a bit as a Sophia character, Tyrion, now that I think about it.

[00:57:17] Hmm.

[00:57:17] Interesting.

[00:57:18] I wonder if Anthony's watch.

[00:57:19] Oh, well then we know that they did watch it.

[00:57:21] Right.

[00:57:21] We know they watch, they started, they, uh, they, for anyone who doesn't know and properly Howard, there is a breakdown of the first episode from them.

[00:57:29] Our discussion of it.

[00:57:30] Um.

[00:57:30] Well, maybe we'll have to pull in a conversation with Anthony.

[00:57:34] Yeah.

[00:57:35] Uh, but yeah.

[00:57:37] So Oz also, you know, he thinks, he thinks he's a step ahead of something before it's actually done.

[00:57:43] So he thinks he tries to have Moroni killed in jail.

[00:57:46] And I don't know why he thought that that would work, but instead it helps Moroni escape.

[00:57:51] So, uh, and then when Moroni calls him, he's immediately like, he doesn't let him find out for himself and buy himself time or something.

[00:57:59] He immediately has to gloat.

[00:58:01] I killed your family, you know?

[00:58:03] Right.

[00:58:03] And doesn't say I killed your family.

[00:58:05] Just like try calling.

[00:58:06] Yeah.

[00:58:07] Right.

[00:58:08] Right.

[00:58:08] Well, because he said some, Oh, so funny.

[00:58:10] You say about being torched or I forget what the word was, but yeah.

[00:58:15] Well, and it goes to the old adage, right?

[00:58:17] If you take a shot at the King, you best not miss, you know, you don't be screwed up.

[00:58:22] And, uh, he, again, I think it goes back to your, your point, even though he would rather have had, uh, uh, Moroni completely wiped out.

[00:58:31] But the fact that the, that, that, uh, he's not, it's more chaos for him to thrive in and more of a challenge.

[00:58:39] Like he's always going, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[00:58:42] He's always going to create situations where he gets to have to think his way out of a chaotic situation, unexpected circumstances.

[00:58:50] Right.

[00:58:50] Well, I, I, yeah, I think he, he thinks that, you know, I don't think he thinks a few steps ahead.

[00:58:58] He just thinks that, um, yeah, yeah.

[00:59:00] He, he's like, Oh, I fixed the problem.

[00:59:02] And then, you know, he really has it like with, uh, Eve where he put her girls in danger and didn't think about how that would come back and bite him in the butt.

[00:59:13] You know, she might eventually be done with his bullshit and turn on him.

[00:59:20] Yeah.

[00:59:20] He's got blind spots for sure.

[00:59:22] Yeah.

[00:59:23] He definitely has blind spots.

[00:59:24] Yeah.

[00:59:25] And what do you, I mean, it's not a blind spot.

[00:59:28] It's a question.

[00:59:28] It's an interesting question.

[00:59:29] Is it a strength or a weakness, uh, with his mother?

[00:59:33] Because his mother is a kind of, um, psychological and historical beacon, a way for him to track himself as he's progressing, as his growth is progressing as a, you know, criminal underworld boss.

[00:59:49] He can always look back at his mother because she's real.

[00:59:53] Like everything else that he has are memories or mythologies, right?

[00:59:57] You know, Rex Calabrese or his brothers or his father.

[01:00:00] Those are all gone and intangible.

[01:00:03] Now his mother's tangible and he can see, and she can remind him of who he was.

[01:00:08] And, you know, and this, you know, this idea that he's destined for greatness.

[01:00:12] But is that also a weakness because he's got to make sure that she's protected and safe?

[01:00:18] Right.

[01:00:18] Well, has he become a more twisted version of what he could have been because of her, uh, because of her encouragement.

[01:00:26] But yeah, we find out she has, uh, Lewy body dementia, which Lewy bodies are proteins.

[01:00:32] So that's what the body part refers to, but it does also affect the, you know, the, the person's body who has it and also gives them hallucinations.

[01:00:41] That's why she's seeing her sons and stuff.

[01:00:43] But this is apparently the second most common, uh, dementia after Alzheimer's.

[01:00:48] And it is, as he said, it's often misdiagnosed as Alzheimer's or Parkinson's because of the effect it has on the body.

[01:00:55] So it's really, it reminds me of, um, it reminds me of, of this talk that I saw at TEDx Amsterdam in 2018, uh, by a Dutch writer named Hank Blanken.

[01:01:09] And so this TEDx was, it was all in English because it's an international thing.

[01:01:15] So there are people from all over the world in the audience there.

[01:01:18] Um, I happen to be for this block of, of talks.

[01:01:21] I was sitting next to a woman from South Korea.

[01:01:24] So I was talking to her about my stuff.

[01:01:26] And then, uh, Hank Blanken, this Dutch writer comes on and he just says in Dutch, I'm going to say this in Dutch.

[01:01:32] I'm not going to take any questions and I'm going to go.

[01:01:34] And he has, he has Parkinson's and, um, actually he might even have a Lewy body come to think of it, but he was talking about his, uh, that he's declining and that he wants, you know, the Netherlands.

[01:01:51] Uh, if you think of liberal laws in the Netherlands, probably the third that comes to mind is euthanasia.

[01:01:56] But his argument is that euthanasia laws are not, uh, liberal enough because he basically is at the point where if he wants to have an assisted suicide, he has to make that decision while he's still mentally sharp enough.

[01:02:15] And he wants to be able to give his wife the right to, you know, put a, he said, put a pill in his oatmeal basically.

[01:02:23] Right.

[01:02:24] Um, but have a healthcare directive.

[01:02:27] Right.

[01:02:27] But we would call that in America, a healthcare directive where somebody has a power of, uh, authority over your medical decisions.

[01:02:35] Yeah.

[01:02:35] Yeah.

[01:02:36] In, in terms of which you can obviously have, uh, in the U S you can't even, you can't assisted suicide is in most cases.

[01:02:42] Exactly.

[01:02:43] Uh, it's becoming more so, but in the Netherlands it's supposed to be more liberal, but yeah, he's saying basically I have to make the decision to do it while I still have good time left in my brain.

[01:02:55] Um, and I would rather to, to live every moment I can with my wife and then, you know, have, have her be in that position.

[01:03:04] And I just, and I was thinking the poor South Korean woman next to me did not speak Dutch, obviously.

[01:03:10] And all the, the half of the audience that didn't speak Dutch, all they saw was everyone sitting in silence and crying.

[01:03:16] And, um, and then when the talk was over, it was immediately like, I'm so sorry, but what just happened?

[01:03:22] And to like, tell her this translate this whole talk, but, but it just, I don't know.

[01:03:28] I just, it really, I think about that.

[01:03:31] I don't remember a single other talk that I saw that day, to be honest, but I still think about that all the time.

[01:03:37] And this episode made me think of that too, when she's asking her son to do that for her.

[01:03:42] And also just seeing reactions online where people are like, that's the wrong thing to do to help her.

[01:03:48] Um, and I don't, I have to disagree.

[01:03:51] I don't think it's the wrong thing to do, but is he capable of it?

[01:03:55] Hmm.

[01:03:56] Hmm.

[01:03:57] And I think we're gonna, there is a lot of dramatic tension, a lot of narrative tension here with Vic as her caretaker and his arc.

[01:04:07] And then, like you said, this, this, uh, interaction between Oz and, and Francis about her health.

[01:04:15] And then that she's this queen that he's trying to protect.

[01:04:18] Right.

[01:04:18] And, um, well in chess, he, it's, it would be a king, but anyway, like, oh, this positioning of, of, of, you know, if it's, if he doesn't have her, is it game over for him or what does he become without her?

[01:04:32] Um, and yeah.

[01:04:34] So I, I definitely think that we're going to get some, but maybe it's going to be wrapped up with the storytelling of, of his brothers and his, the rest of his family history.

[01:04:43] But also if she's not there, you know, he, he is his biggest fear is that something happens to her.

[01:04:51] Yes.

[01:04:52] So if she is gone, then he's completely, he's untethered, but that's in the most dangerous way for his enemies too, because he has nothing left to lose.

[01:05:03] Right.

[01:05:03] He's got a, he's, he doesn't have to devote any energy, attention or, or, um, resources to protecting that part of his, uh, of his identity and of his operation.

[01:05:14] Right.

[01:05:15] This, um, oh, go ahead.

[01:05:17] I was going to say, I love the scene though.

[01:05:19] Um, just in terms of like showing his humanity and their humanity as a mother and son, you know, that scene where he's doing her makeup and obviously he's well-practiced in it.

[01:05:30] He does a really good job.

[01:05:31] Um, but then as you, you see the hand putting on the lipstick and everything, but you still see the dirt under the nails.

[01:05:39] Yeah.

[01:05:39] Right.

[01:05:40] But he's like, I want to preserve you.

[01:05:42] And he tells her she looks like Gilda, you know, and you look powerful.

[01:05:46] And he wants, he's getting his hands dirty and he wants her to be like the symbol of what, what he's doing it for basically.

[01:05:55] Right.

[01:05:55] Right.

[01:05:56] Part of this mythology that he has, um, for himself.

[01:05:59] And the, this idea that here's this guy who's dealing drugs and dealing death and he just burned a mother and son alive.

[01:06:09] Mm-hmm.

[01:06:10] And yet he's, it's just such a beautiful tender moment between, uh, uh, uh, mother and son.

[01:06:18] Uh, it just, I, I love the complexity that they're giving us in this show.

[01:06:23] I, I don't know of another show right now that's on, that's doing this kind of level of character work.

[01:06:29] Hmm.

[01:06:30] And these intricacies and these complexities and what, what it's doing to us as the audience, like the, the conflict that I'm feeling of like, this guy is horrible.

[01:06:38] But my God, this moment that he has with his mother is absolutely incredible.

[01:06:43] Well, we're going to talk about, uh, Pachinko next week.

[01:06:45] And there's definitely a character there that I have those feelings about and people are like, he's just bad.

[01:06:49] I'm like, no, but except when he's good.

[01:06:52] Except when he's good.

[01:06:53] Exactly.

[01:06:53] And then I thought it was interesting with, and we don't want to spoil any of the Agathy stuff, but there's a character there who has been, um, uh, experiencing something that we've questioned.

[01:07:09] And then if you actually look at what happens, the resolution for that, it could be a very dementia like experience where people wake up in a moment and you're like, where am I?

[01:07:20] What's going on?

[01:07:21] Who are you people?

[01:07:22] I have lucidity.

[01:07:23] And then, you know, boom, you get sucked down again.

[01:07:25] And, or I don't know what the way to describe it is, but you know, your synapses, your chemistry switches again, and then you're in these different, literally different realities.

[01:07:56] Mm-hmm.

[01:08:03] What's happening with, with this, uh, storyline, uh, around that.

[01:08:08] So, but anyway, uh, Deirdre O'Connell, what a command performance.

[01:08:14] Like, what a break role for her.

[01:08:17] I mean, I was looking at her filmography and it's, you know, she's, she's been working steady, you know, but man, this role I think is really putting her on the next level of, of, it's like, wow, where have you been?

[01:08:32] Mm-hmm.

[01:08:32] Kind of thing.

[01:08:34] Yeah.

[01:08:35] And it's for her.

[01:08:37] I think that he goes to such lengths to get the power back on.

[01:08:41] Mm-hmm.

[01:08:43] So, he's got another ally slash enemy in the government now after almost taking his nose.

[01:08:50] And doesn't, and doesn't Vic say to her or wait, yeah, he, he said to her, like, it was Oz who got the power back on.

[01:08:58] Right.

[01:08:58] Right.

[01:08:58] So, there's this whole, like, oh, my son.

[01:09:01] And it's great.

[01:09:01] Victor sees things.

[01:09:02] He sees things.

[01:09:03] He knows what's what.

[01:09:06] Yeah.

[01:09:06] Right.

[01:09:06] Right.

[01:09:07] This, this other idea, which we didn't really talk about with, with her character, that the way that you deal with somebody or, you know, how you interact with somebody with dementia.

[01:09:27] Vic is doing the whole play along game of saying, oh, yeah, you know, it is, you know, so and so.

[01:09:32] He's down at the, the, the, the, the office paying the bill.

[01:09:36] And she's like, oh, okay.

[01:09:37] And I remember when I first heard about this approach to just going along with that person's reality and how, how much peace it brings them and you and the stress and everything.

[01:09:50] And I don't have anybody in my life who, I haven't had to face this head on this situation.

[01:09:55] So, I'm not a person to speak about other than that.

[01:09:58] I'm aware of that.

[01:09:59] This is something that people do.

[01:10:01] Yeah.

[01:10:01] And it was just really interesting.

[01:10:03] And where Oswald was like, no, we're dealing with reality.

[01:10:06] We're here.

[01:10:07] We're now.

[01:10:08] That person's long gone.

[01:10:09] And then, of course, he's got raw feelings about it.

[01:10:11] Like, don't say that person's name.

[01:10:12] You're not allowed to speak about them.

[01:10:14] But I just like how they, they brought in that little part of, of, of caring for somebody with dementia, that whole, like, go along sort of strategy.

[01:10:24] Yeah.

[01:10:25] Yeah.

[01:10:25] No, I remember my last big conversation that I got to have with my grandmother.

[01:10:30] She was, at this point, she kept reverting back to talking about the road trip that she took when she met my grandfather.

[01:10:39] And, you know, that's, this is where they fell in love and stuff.

[01:10:41] And it was a road trip across the U.S.

[01:10:43] And she just, it had gotten to the point where this was her, the main story that she was focusing on.

[01:10:49] And, you know, so I was talking to her and I tried to bring up, there was another road trip that she also took with my grandfather through Europe.

[01:10:57] And I tried to just kind of steer things in that direction.

[01:11:02] I'm like, oh, remember going into Paris with the roof down and stuff.

[01:11:05] And it just, even though it was within, you know, the bounds of her being with her husband and being in a happy moment on, on the road, it was just, it was clearly upsetting to her that I was trying to steer it.

[01:11:19] She's like, no, no, we were in California.

[01:11:21] Like, okay, sorry, yes.

[01:11:25] And of course, she didn't know who I was because, and for him to be, yeah, for that to have been the case, I couldn't be alive.

[01:11:34] I wasn't born yet.

[01:11:34] It's gotta be, I can only imagine just the emotional impact of having to deal with the fact that, you know, this person doesn't recognize you or know you.

[01:11:48] But then in a flash, the next day, in an hour, that suddenly are, they do.

[01:11:53] It just gotta be hard.

[01:11:55] The last thing, yeah, I said to her was, I love you in Russian.

[01:11:58] And she said, but I just met you.

[01:12:00] And then that was the last time I saw her because COVID happened.

[01:12:02] Yeah.

[01:12:03] Oh, God.

[01:12:05] Okay.

[01:12:05] Well, yeah, anyway.

[01:12:08] Thank you for sharing that.

[01:12:09] Sorry for that.

[01:12:11] We slid in.

[01:12:11] Well, not sorry, but you know what I mean?

[01:12:13] So.

[01:12:13] No, but this is something that I noticed that it seems like when, in our discord, what we're talking about on, on, on social media, where people are talking about it, it just, this is these points keep cropping, popping, keep cropping up in all these different stories because they're so relatable.

[01:12:31] So many people have been in these positions.

[01:12:34] Yes, yes.

[01:12:35] Absolutely.

[01:12:36] Absolutely.

[01:12:36] I will shout out the bald move folks.

[01:12:40] You know, our former podcast parents, they do an annual fundraiser for dementia and Parkinson's, that whole sort of research.

[01:12:50] And so they do a 24 hour marathon.

[01:12:52] So they've been raising a lot of money for it.

[01:12:55] And it seems like there's been a lot of medical advances, like we're starting to understand things a bit more.

[01:13:00] So that's, that's good.

[01:13:04] So anyway.

[01:13:05] Well, yeah.

[01:13:06] So back to some gangster shit.

[01:13:09] Back to not reality.

[01:13:13] So, wow.

[01:13:14] I guess stuff like this does happen, but they're, they're having a gang war about the drugs.

[01:13:19] Yeah.

[01:13:20] And so Oz is, you know, he's, he's, we've had a time jump between episodes five and six.

[01:13:27] And so he's managed to get like the, the bliss growing again in his new lair and he's ready to start dealing.

[01:13:34] But two of the dealers that he sends out turn up dead.

[01:13:39] And so he has to.

[01:13:41] Members of another gang.

[01:13:42] Right.

[01:13:42] They go out and they pull off some corner boys.

[01:13:44] Yeah.

[01:13:45] Right.

[01:13:45] Yeah.

[01:13:46] And so then he, you know, this is the threat hanging over anyone who deals bliss will die.

[01:13:52] And so this is where Oz thrives in making last minute short sighted decisions.

[01:13:59] And he's like, you know what?

[01:14:00] We're going to just give it all away.

[01:14:02] And, and so who's going to say no, just, you know, put it in the hands of anyone who will take it at free samples for everyone.

[01:14:10] How do you think that's going to turn out?

[01:14:12] Well, I think Stringer Bell would be pretty impressed with his, with this move.

[01:14:17] This is good market economics.

[01:14:19] You know, get your product out there.

[01:14:21] Get everybody interested.

[01:14:22] And invested in it.

[01:14:23] And the undeniability of it.

[01:14:26] And I think it was smart.

[01:14:29] And it brought all of the other players to him.

[01:14:33] You know, he was actually able to bring the gold summit together.

[01:14:37] And boy, what a great sort of St. Crispin's Day, you know, type of speech, you know, or Braveheart or something like that.

[01:14:48] You know, they will not, you know, he's rallying these, these troops.

[01:14:51] And just a fun little TV moment there of everybody cracking their beer as a sound of their like, okay, I'm in.

[01:15:00] I just thought the whole thing was very well pulled off and very clever.

[01:15:04] And again, Oz thriving in the way that he thrives, which is I got to think of something in the moment.

[01:15:11] And here's my play.

[01:15:12] I can see the big vision and I can see the short-term vision.

[01:15:16] I can't see the middle ground.

[01:15:17] And this middle ground is fraught with problems, right, between all of these gangs.

[01:15:22] So.

[01:15:23] Yeah.

[01:15:24] Yep.

[01:15:25] Yeah.

[01:15:26] And so now we've got, we've have Sophia and Eve have met.

[01:15:30] Sophia's deigned not to kill her so far at least.

[01:15:32] Such a good scene.

[01:15:34] We've got that victory moment of Oz getting the power back on and then coupled with that, you know, speech where he gets all the gang leaders together from all these minor gangs and says, you know, those made men, they don't even know your names.

[01:15:48] And they all crack a beer open together, which is cheesy in the best possible way.

[01:15:55] And Victor and Oz's mom are celebrating these victories.

[01:16:00] But Sophia is standing in their foyer with a crowbar in her hand, which by the way, crowbar Joker's weapon.

[01:16:08] Oh, really?

[01:16:09] Oh, nice.

[01:16:10] Good call.

[01:16:11] See, I love the fact that they're putting all these little Easter eggs in there.

[01:16:14] So for the comic book folks, they're like, there's a richness there.

[01:16:17] And then for me, like, ah, it's just a crowbar.

[01:16:19] It makes sense for the character.

[01:16:20] It makes sense for what she's doing.

[01:16:21] Right.

[01:16:21] And it's dangerous.

[01:16:23] It doesn't take anything away.

[01:16:24] Yeah.

[01:16:25] It's not distracting.

[01:16:26] And it adds things in its own way, which is like a crowbar is a blunt force instrument when it's used in crimes of this situation.

[01:16:33] So that portends violence.

[01:16:35] Right.

[01:16:36] Yeah.

[01:16:36] So.

[01:16:37] So.

[01:16:38] Oh.

[01:16:38] Go ahead.

[01:16:40] Well, I was just going to say, we just saw Sophia not kill Eve.

[01:16:45] So what happens when, but she's pissed because of all of the things that Oz has done, especially.

[01:16:51] Right.

[01:16:51] Like her brother.

[01:16:52] So what is that Vic?

[01:16:54] Okay.

[01:16:55] Right.

[01:16:55] You know, she, we could, she could be quite easily, but when she encounters Francis, what is that going to do?

[01:17:01] What is that confrontation going to look like?

[01:17:03] Because how is Francis going to, is Francis going to pick her, piss her off?

[01:17:07] And is, Oz would snap if someone belittled him, but Sophia, we've seen her snap, but is this going to be the trigger or not?

[01:17:17] And if she does end up killing Francis, does that in a way make things easier for Oz?

[01:17:24] Because then he doesn't have to do it himself.

[01:17:26] Oh God.

[01:17:27] I didn't even think about that.

[01:17:29] But I'm just sort of getting lost in the thought of, of, uh, Francis having a moment of lucidity and just absolutely taking Sophia apart, you know, by, you know, verbally taking her apart.

[01:17:41] Like who are you and what are you?

[01:17:42] And like, bop, bop, bop, bop, and just taking, dressing her down.

[01:17:46] Or we could get some interesting backstory reveals because if she's in the past somewhere, you know, in that moment.

[01:17:53] But then will Sophia have a moment of humanity and not kill her or, or, or, or what will she do?

[01:18:00] Because this is just a poor woman who's suffering dementia living in, you know, what was a squalid cold, like, Oh God, it like they really did a great job of, of like, this apartment is cold.

[01:18:12] It's kind of shitty.

[01:18:14] You got to run this generator.

[01:18:15] Da, da, da, da, da.

[01:18:16] But yeah, so much good.

[01:18:18] So many good potentials here.

[01:18:20] Yep.

[01:18:22] Yeah.

[01:18:22] It's going to be a really explosive last two episodes.

[01:18:27] And then, so what do we got?

[01:18:29] We have, we're on six now.

[01:18:32] We are, we're going to eight.

[01:18:33] So two more.

[01:18:34] Yeah.

[01:18:35] So two more.

[01:18:35] So we have the third of November and then the 10th of November and then boom, the 17th of November, we've got Dune Prophecy.

[01:18:44] Right.

[01:18:44] So our Sunday nights.

[01:18:45] Yeah.

[01:18:46] We've got a nice fun.

[01:18:46] I knew that HBO was going to do that because it would be dumb of them not to basically.

[01:18:51] Exactly.

[01:18:51] Amazon, why don't you learn this?

[01:18:53] Why did the Wheel of Time not start like two weeks after Rings of Power ended?

[01:18:58] Yeah.

[01:18:58] Yeah.

[01:18:59] Well, I mean, actually I'm glad right now as a content creator that it, that would be too much, but.

[01:19:04] I'm bracing for 2025.

[01:19:06] I'm really worried about our scheduling.

[01:19:08] It's going to be, it's going to be rough because there's so much good stuff coming up.

[01:19:12] But hey, we've got a network of people to help, you know, do different things.

[01:19:18] And maybe we can wrap up with talking about what's going on in our Elseworlds, in the Lorehounds Elseworlds.

[01:19:24] What do you, you've got a bunch.

[01:19:25] You just, you have been cooking.

[01:19:27] Your kitchen.

[01:19:30] It's been, yes.

[01:19:31] Spook-toe, we're madness.

[01:19:34] So just as, after we stop recording this, I'm pushing out an episode where Marilyn and I talk about what are real witches?

[01:19:43] What does that mean?

[01:19:44] What does it mean in the past?

[01:19:45] What does that mean in the present?

[01:19:46] Oh, you want to school?

[01:19:48] It's class.

[01:19:48] Class is in session.

[01:19:49] But there's also, we have a, there's a fun short story in there and some other audio, little fun audio spooktober gifts.

[01:19:59] Love it.

[01:20:00] Love it.

[01:20:00] And yeah.

[01:20:01] And then of course on the Woolship Dust public feed, there is coverage of the craft and the craft legacy.

[01:20:07] And on the Lorehounds, we've been doing the Poltergeist coverage.

[01:20:11] Yep.

[01:20:12] So spooktober's been going hard.

[01:20:14] I loved your setup for doing the, I was wondering how we're going to do it in the way.

[01:20:18] And then when you got the outline done, I was like, oh, this is perfect.

[01:20:21] Putting the original Poltergeist in the 2015 remake head to head and doing the little sort of breakdown that way.

[01:20:28] That was perfect.

[01:20:29] And then for 11z's, which is our subscriber bonus podcast for movie reviews, we did Poltergeist 2 and 3.

[01:20:37] And surprisingly, 2 and 3 hold up really nicely.

[01:20:40] I mean, they're fun watches, even if they're like, you know, yeah.

[01:20:45] Yeah.

[01:20:45] No regrets.

[01:20:46] Those sequels can just trash a property or a title, but they held up.

[01:20:51] They were okay.

[01:20:52] I thought 3 was kind of cool because the way that they flipped it up and put it in an office building.

[01:20:58] It's so 80s.

[01:20:59] It's so, so 80s.

[01:21:01] Right.

[01:21:02] It's a skyscraper.

[01:21:04] Yeah.

[01:21:04] Condo building.

[01:21:06] Yeah.

[01:21:07] And as John pointed out, they're short.

[01:21:10] Yes.

[01:21:12] Back in the day when movies were a nice hour and a half.

[01:21:15] Boom.

[01:21:16] Get it done.

[01:21:17] And then for our second Brackfest podcast, which is also our subscriber exclusive podcast, we talk about blood sausage.

[01:21:25] I didn't realize that people were going to actually have sexual reactions.

[01:21:30] I mean, you guys eat mussels all the time.

[01:21:33] Like, it's the same thing.

[01:21:35] I would rather eat blood than mussels.

[01:21:37] Sorry.

[01:21:38] I'm going vegetarian on you again.

[01:21:40] Hilarious.

[01:21:41] I picked this subject.

[01:21:43] I thought it was Halloween-y.

[01:21:46] Yeah.

[01:21:46] What's our topic?

[01:21:48] And if you're not a subscriber, Second Breakfast, we talk about a breakfast topic.

[01:21:52] And then we talk about what's going on in our individual lives.

[01:21:55] And then we talk about news and updates in the industry and with lorehounds and takes listener feedback.

[01:22:02] But it's a fun place where we get to talk about other things other than TV and movies.

[01:22:09] And I think next month, did we pick a topic already?

[01:22:13] John said he wants to do birds for breakfast because of Thanksgiving, I guess.

[01:22:16] So I'm going to be an observer on that one.

[01:22:21] Well, what did you say?

[01:22:22] You were going to talk about pea proteins or something?

[01:22:23] Yeah.

[01:22:25] Although I don't eat that for breakfast.

[01:22:28] Well, I guess I could with sausage.

[01:22:31] For Wolfship Dust, you also have Silo about to fire up.

[01:22:34] Yes, Silo is about to start.

[01:22:36] So we are also today as we're recording the Silo short stories breakdown is dropping in the book club.

[01:22:44] And there will be two rewatch episodes for the book club coming up right after that.

[01:22:48] And in the public feed, Luke and I recently released a breakdown of the first trailer that came out.

[01:22:54] And yeah, we're going to be doing weekly coverage there like last year, but slightly different because we have screeners this time.

[01:23:00] So we can be a bit more timely.

[01:23:01] Yeah.

[01:23:02] Thank you, Apple.

[01:23:03] They are so generous.

[01:23:03] They're like, oh, you want screeners?

[01:23:04] Here you go.

[01:23:05] Here you go.

[01:23:05] Oh, this person, that person.

[01:23:06] Yeah.

[01:23:06] It's really great.

[01:23:10] And then you're going to be running point on that.

[01:23:13] We'll shift dust.

[01:23:13] But then you're going to be jumping over and joining you, joining me for Dune Prophecy.

[01:23:19] And I'll be taking the lead on that.

[01:23:20] I just put together a show guide for that, just for the onscreen stuff.

[01:23:25] And we'll get the Discord channel fired up here in a minute.

[01:23:28] I was going to do a trailer breakdown again.

[01:23:31] And then you and I are going to do a like a season preview, do some little setup about a week.

[01:23:37] We'll drop that about a week before the episodes start, which start on November 17th.

[01:23:43] And it's a very short season, just six episodes.

[01:23:46] So it's going to be a wrap up pretty quick.

[01:23:50] And then otherwise for Lorehounds, I'm working on a Star Trek, the motion picture 45th anniversary podcast.

[01:23:57] We were jokingly playing around, jokingly, I don't know, interstellar.

[01:24:01] I threw the idea out because it's a 10 year anniversary and people, boy, there was some reactions.

[01:24:07] Well, you're talking about me.

[01:24:09] I don't love the one aspect of, yeah, I don't love that.

[01:24:13] One aspect of the story.

[01:24:14] But I love the science because I know Aisha from every sci-fi film ever is doing an episode specifically about the science of the movie.

[01:24:23] And that is perhaps the best science-based movie.

[01:24:28] There's a really excellent book by science advisor, Kip Thorne, about it.

[01:24:32] Right, right.

[01:24:33] And then we have our end of year wrap up stuff in planning as well.

[01:24:37] So, yeah, we've got a lot coming yet.

[01:24:40] Radioactive Ramblings, they are doing the Red Rising book club series, doing a series on Red Rising as a book club.

[01:24:47] They just dropped an episode the other day.

[01:24:51] And I got to check, what was the last Nevermind the Music podcast that just came out?

[01:24:58] Oh, I haven't listened to the newest one.

[01:25:00] I saw one just popped up.

[01:25:01] Actually, no, I did.

[01:25:02] Was it another sidetrack about AI?

[01:25:04] No, no, it was, where was it here?

[01:25:08] I'm just looking at the list.

[01:25:09] The last one I listened to is there was a sidetrack about talking about AI and music versus AI and psychology.

[01:25:17] Yep, that's the one.

[01:25:18] And we're going to start doing a couple of crossover podcast drops to help promote their feed.

[01:25:27] But if you've not listened to them, you absolutely have to go.

[01:25:30] It's like Lorehounds, but for music and psychology.

[01:25:33] It's amazing.

[01:25:35] It's such a podcast.

[01:25:37] And properly Howard, I'm not sure they're a little bit on a break for their movie reviews,

[01:25:42] but we know we're going to be doing a joint coverage of Severance when that starts in January.

[01:25:49] Date, was it the 17th or something like that?

[01:25:52] So that'll be coming up.

[01:25:54] Star Wars canon timeline, anything coming up there?

[01:25:57] Yeah, so the canon Padawan subscribers are getting a spooktober bonus with,

[01:26:04] that's a short story from the Legends comics about Darth Nihilus.

[01:26:08] And it's just been such a squeezes month with trying to catch up on Silo and Dune stuff.

[01:26:15] November, I'm going back to, I'm still doing the sweep through the High Republic with flashback episodes.

[01:26:21] So more High Republic content.

[01:26:23] Next up is going to, oh, do I still, actually, I forget if I, oh yeah, I still have to publish the High Republic Visions episode.

[01:26:35] Did I publish that one?

[01:26:38] And then the next one after that is going to be the Young Jedi Adventures.

[01:26:44] Going to talk about the Kalnaka comic.

[01:26:46] Going to talk about Darth Plagueis.

[01:26:48] Lots of good stuff coming up over there.

[01:26:50] Whew, boy, we could spend a good third of this podcast just on what content's coming up.

[01:26:57] But we should probably wrap up here.

[01:27:00] So I picked out some music.

[01:27:02] Hopefully it's fitting.

[01:27:03] I'll read the Discord server boosters if you want to read the lore masters.

[01:27:07] Okay.

[01:27:08] So here we go.

[01:27:10] Hopefully this is fitting for the penguin.

[01:27:13] Discord server boosters.

[01:27:15] Aaron K.

[01:27:15] Tiller the Thriller.

[01:27:17] Dork of the Ninjas.

[01:27:18] Doove 71.

[01:27:19] Athena Adelaia.

[01:27:21] Tina.

[01:27:22] Le Stew.

[01:27:23] Nancy M.

[01:27:24] Ghost of Perdition.

[01:27:25] And Richard W.

[01:27:26] Thank you.

[01:27:26] Thank you all for boosting our server and making a better place for our community to have our virtual water cooler space.

[01:27:34] And thank you to all listeners and all Lorehound subscribers.

[01:27:39] You make this possible.

[01:27:40] But thank you most especially to our lore masters.

[01:27:43] Samarshan.

[01:27:44] Michael G.

[01:27:44] Michelle E.

[01:27:45] Brian P.

[01:27:46] SC.

[01:27:47] Peter O.

[01:27:47] H.

[01:27:48] Bettina W.

[01:27:49] Adam S.

[01:27:49] Nancy M.

[01:27:50] Doove 71.

[01:27:51] Brian 8063.

[01:27:53] Frederick H.

[01:27:54] Sarah L.

[01:27:55] Gareth C.

[01:27:56] Eric F.

[01:27:56] Matthew M.

[01:27:57] Sarah M.

[01:27:58] DJ Miwa.

[01:27:59] Andra B.

[01:28:00] Kwong Yu.

[01:28:01] Dead Eye Jedi Bob.

[01:28:02] Nathan T.

[01:28:03] Alex V.

[01:28:04] Aaron T.

[01:28:04] Sub Zero.

[01:28:05] Aaron K.

[01:28:06] Dally V.

[01:28:07] Mothership Gnarls.

[01:28:08] Kathy W.

[01:28:09] Lestu.

[01:28:09] Jeffrey B.

[01:28:10] Elisa U.

[01:28:11] Fosse U.

[01:28:11] Neil F.

[01:28:12] Ben V.

[01:28:13] Scott F.

[01:28:14] And always last.

[01:28:15] Adrian.

[01:28:17] We will see you all on a wrap up for Penguin 7 and 8.

[01:28:24] And hopefully we'll have a couple of friends along with us.

[01:28:26] But until then, thanks.

[01:28:28] Put the blame on me, boys.

[01:28:31] Put the blame on.

[01:28:32] The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds.

[01:28:36] You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact.

[01:28:42] Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds.

[01:28:47] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities.

[01:28:53] Thanks for listening.