The Rings of Power - S02 Wrap-up - Part 2 - Mailbag

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[00:01:14] Welcome to the Rings of Power Podcast, where the Lorehounds, your guides to Tolkien's world of Middle-Earth, the road goes on. I'm David.

[00:01:22] I'm John.

[00:01:23] And I'm Marilyn. And this is part two of our Wrap-up Episode for the Rings of Power Season 2.

[00:01:30] In this episode, I think we're just going to cut to the chase and just get right to the emails because the document goes forever on.

[00:01:38] Just a quick note. Nancy, we miss you.

[00:01:41] Oh, Nancy.

[00:01:43] John, do you want to kick us off? We're not going to give the email address out.

[00:01:50] Because they kept coming in. They kept coming in.

[00:01:53] John's frantically adding voicemails and emails.

[00:01:57] Oh, I miss Nancy.

[00:01:58] Not quite even as we speak, but close too.

[00:02:00] I miss Nancy. Nancy's not allowed to go on vacation in Rings of Power Season 3.

[00:02:06] David said something quite similar.

[00:02:08] And I said, yes, well, as long as she doesn't, when we're not in the middle of something like this.

[00:02:13] Not on a hit television show. I thought I saw an email somewhere, something from an Amazon executive, how they're very pleased with the numbers of engagement.

[00:02:23] And they're, you know, I think they're really happy.

[00:02:28] And it seems like there's a lot of good press.

[00:02:32] Patrick and JD have been doing the rounds on the press junkets.

[00:02:36] Wow, they sure have.

[00:02:38] Yeah. So that's good.

[00:02:40] That's great.

[00:02:41] Nice.

[00:02:43] Should we get into it?

[00:02:44] Let's do it.

[00:02:44] Let's get so into it. It's crazy.

[00:02:47] Okay.

[00:02:48] On the affairs of wizards is our next topic on the feedback since we did the deep lore stuff last episode.

[00:02:55] And thanks to Mark for the fun game.

[00:02:57] That was so fun.

[00:02:58] Oh yeah, that was great.

[00:02:59] It was really great.

[00:03:00] That was fun.

[00:03:01] Go back and listen to it if you haven't.

[00:03:03] David, do you want to start off?

[00:03:04] Do you want to do this section since I did all the last section?

[00:03:07] Sure.

[00:03:07] Sure, I can do that.

[00:03:08] Paul from Buckingham, England.

[00:03:11] The British invasion continues, John.

[00:03:13] They're coming with tea and crumpets for you to attack the eagles.

[00:03:18] Hey!

[00:03:18] Bring it!

[00:03:19] Bring it!

[00:03:19] I say.

[00:03:20] I will wear a full print American flag.

[00:03:25] Are you going to get a lifted truck?

[00:03:28] Paul says, enjoy the season finale summary.

[00:03:33] I agree.

[00:03:35] It would have been more interesting if both wizards were blue.

[00:03:38] I can at least put your minds at rest about one thing.

[00:03:42] There are some new interviews with the showrunners online today, and they clearly state in the answer to a direct question that the dark wizard is not Saurmon.

[00:03:50] So likely one of the wizards here in the rings of powers is at least blue.

[00:03:55] See you in two years.

[00:03:57] John, you pushed back pretty vigorously about this the other day.

[00:04:00] I think Marilyn and I are on the same page.

[00:04:03] Yeah.

[00:04:03] They did not give a solid no.

[00:04:05] It was a...

[00:04:06] I did not find one in which they clearly state anything.

[00:04:11] So that's kind of my hesitation.

[00:04:13] I will reserve judgment until, you know, we actually get there.

[00:04:17] It is an Aes Sedai no.

[00:04:20] Right?

[00:04:21] Yes.

[00:04:22] Yes.

[00:04:23] Exactly that.

[00:04:24] It's very close to the Aes Sedai in The Wheel of Time.

[00:04:26] Can't lie.

[00:04:27] If you're not in on that with us, which you should be because it's a great series and if you like the rings of power, you'll like that.

[00:04:32] Um, it's very like they, they cannot speak an untrue word.

[00:04:37] That's the actual oath.

[00:04:38] Right?

[00:04:38] So it's not that they can't lie by omission.

[00:04:41] They can't speak an untrue word.

[00:04:42] And I think that's what we have here.

[00:04:44] It would be, I think one of the phrases would, it would be nearly impossible for him to be able to get Sautamon.

[00:04:51] And I'm like, yeah, okay.

[00:04:52] We have to remember that these are professional liars.

[00:04:57] Yeah.

[00:04:57] You know, they're, they're writers.

[00:04:59] They are, you know, fiction, fantasy writers.

[00:05:01] Right?

[00:05:01] So they, they're writers and, and they're lying to us.

[00:05:04] Right?

[00:05:05] You know, this world doesn't exist.

[00:05:06] So they're good at these things.

[00:05:08] Right.

[00:05:09] But anyway, Paul, I too agree with you that, uh, I would love it for him to not be Sautamon, but I think I'm slowly resigning myself to the fact that probably end up will be.

[00:05:20] So.

[00:05:21] I would be thrilled if it was a blue.

[00:05:24] Ryan L.

[00:05:25] I believe I'm pronouncing that right.

[00:05:27] Sorry if I'm pronouncing your, your name wrong, but thank you for writing in nonetheless.

[00:05:31] Hey all first.

[00:05:32] I just wanted to say, enjoyed your coverage this season.

[00:05:34] Loved tuning in every week.

[00:05:36] Well, we loved having you here every week.

[00:05:39] So thank you.

[00:05:39] Thank you so much.

[00:05:40] I'm not very deep into the lore, but I took your discussion on the dark wizard portion of the episode.

[00:05:45] That was a, it was almost a foregone conclusion that they must be Sautamon.

[00:05:50] I was curious if it was still possible that this could be one of the blue wizards as not much as known of the blue wizards.

[00:05:59] Is it possible that Gandalf was old friends with the blue wizards before being sent to middle earth?

[00:06:05] Sure.

[00:06:05] I was thinking that this could give the show runners room to be a little creative without explaining every Tolkien mystery or potentially ruining characters from the original Jackson trilogy.

[00:06:16] Side note regarding your criticism of the finale.

[00:06:19] I don't think it was too much or undeserved necessarily, but I will say I was surprised about some of the parts you didn't enjoy.

[00:06:28] Hmm.

[00:06:29] And he doesn't elaborate, but that's okay.

[00:06:32] Yeah, it's certainly possible.

[00:06:34] You could have Gandalf and a blue wizard, I think.

[00:06:36] Um, and maybe that is what they're kind of not hinting that they're going to do.

[00:06:42] Sorry, just the way they express it is, is a little challenging, but, um, there, there's nothing there, there are several things that contradict each other in the, in the, in the lore about whether or not two blue wizards were successful or a failure.

[00:06:58] When did they go out and so forth?

[00:07:00] Um, it is certainly said that a lot and was present before the third age, but usually invisibly and almost always with the elves.

[00:07:13] So, you know, it's, it's probably just the show runners, you know, stretching it, but yeah, we shall see.

[00:07:22] Yeah.

[00:07:22] I mean, I, yeah, very possible that it's still a blue wizard, although I think they probably won't call it blue.

[00:07:28] Um, we do have writing, we do have a very small, like, it's like a paragraph where Tolkien and his extended writings that end up in history of Middle Earth go.

[00:07:36] Yeah.

[00:07:37] Um, maybe the blue wizards went to the east and started magic cults, right?

[00:07:41] Like very casually.

[00:07:42] Right.

[00:07:42] So yeah, that's, I think that's why people were excited for it to be two blue wizards is that that felt like a, a really exciting possibility.

[00:07:50] And so we didn't have that.

[00:07:52] The reason I think that Marilyn and I were so, and I, I guess I should only speak for myself, but the reason I'm so, um, kind of resigned to it being Saruman is that they are so Saruman coding this guy.

[00:08:04] Yeah.

[00:08:05] That with, um, the orb like staff with the, uh, the, the way his hair is kind of, um, and especially in his phrasing old friend, old friend, uh, and, and this, um, this whole join me.

[00:08:21] And then, uh, it's, it's, it's literally just a replay from the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

[00:08:26] So.

[00:08:27] Yeah.

[00:08:28] And in, in the 12th volume of the histories of Middle Earth, they have a couple of final paragraphs about the east thought with, which Tolkien wrote shortly before his death, really.

[00:08:39] And by that time he, he had given them names.

[00:08:42] Right.

[00:08:43] He had been going off together into the east and managing to, um, counteract a lot of Sauron's work and trying to get all the men of the west involved in his battles and so forth.

[00:08:56] So that when the third age final battle did begin, there were far fewer folks from the east who came and support us out on when the call went out.

[00:09:06] So in that they were successful in their mission.

[00:09:10] So he's had a lot of ideas about the blues and I guess you could say the showrunners have too.

[00:09:42] Yeah.

[00:09:44] That's, that's most of what we get.

[00:09:45] Right.

[00:09:46] I think, I think there's a little bit somewhere where, where Gandalf Aloran was sort of hesitant to go.

[00:09:51] Oh yeah.

[00:09:52] There's a wonderful, it's, I think it's an unfinished tale.

[00:09:54] So there's a nice.

[00:09:55] Yeah.

[00:09:56] That sounds.

[00:09:57] Chunk where they describe the whole process by which Manoway summons people.

[00:10:02] And, you know, Yavanna insists that Sauron bring Ruddy asked along because.

[00:10:07] Yeah.

[00:10:07] Great, great fucking idea, Yavanna.

[00:10:09] Yeah.

[00:10:10] Right, right.

[00:10:11] Well, she's concerned about plants.

[00:10:12] He was a big help.

[00:10:13] She was concerned about plants and animals.

[00:10:15] We don't know.

[00:10:15] We don't know.

[00:10:16] I'm just kidding.

[00:10:17] He might have saved a lot of animals in, you know, in Merckwood and so forth.

[00:10:22] Listen, I'm, I'm just cranky today cause I had a bad tech day as David described it.

[00:10:26] So.

[00:10:26] Yes.

[00:10:26] No, you crank away.

[00:10:28] That's perfectly fine.

[00:10:28] So I was just going to wrap up and say, it's interesting that, uh, Reen, uh, Ryan, I apologize,

[00:10:34] uh, how they say, uh, our criticisms aren't as, um, heavy, uh, as we might've been worrying about, but I'd be curious to know what they thought that they, that we were in agreement or disagreement with them about.

[00:10:50] So.

[00:10:50] Yeah.

[00:10:51] But I'm glad because we don't want to be.

[00:10:54] Yeah.

[00:10:54] We love this property.

[00:10:55] We love, we love the fact that Amazon is doing this and, and we want to be, have, you know, critique when critique is necessary and, you know, be critical when critical is necessary without being negative.

[00:11:05] And that's a, a balance that we are always seeking.

[00:11:09] Anyway.

[00:11:10] Mark G.

[00:11:11] Go ahead.

[00:11:11] I just want to say, I don't recall who it was on the discord.

[00:11:15] Do you remember Marilyn who, who asked us point blank?

[00:11:18] Like, do you think you would have not criticized certain things if you weren't podcasting about it?

[00:11:24] If you weren't analyzing it so closely?

[00:11:25] Hmm.

[00:11:27] Was this Tina?

[00:11:28] I think it was Tina.

[00:11:29] I honestly can't remember John.

[00:11:31] Well, somebody did and sorry for the lack of credit, but, and I think you and I both answered.

[00:11:36] And my answer was, I think certain things I would not have criticized as strongly.

[00:11:42] And those things are like the, the image at the end, right.

[00:11:45] Of all of them standing on a cliff.

[00:11:47] I think if I hadn't just covered wheel of time, that probably wouldn't have bothered me that much that they're doing the exact same action hero pose, but other things like grand elf is just so silly, right?

[00:11:57] Like I, I'm, I'm, if I were watching that on my couch doing nothing else, I would have been like, really?

[00:12:03] You still would have cringed.

[00:12:04] Come on, come on.

[00:12:05] You can do better.

[00:12:06] And I know these writers can do better, which is why I'm criticizing it.

[00:12:09] That's the biggest thing for me, John, you know, having seen the wonderful things they did with that art.

[00:12:15] Um, I just wish they could have applied that same talent and gift and storytelling to the blue wizards.

[00:12:23] I think my process as I described it was, I, I don't do the analytical thing, but I respond more in terms of, you know, how do I feel about this?

[00:12:33] And then I step back and say, so why do I feel this way?

[00:12:36] And that's where the NLL process comes into the extent that it does.

[00:12:40] And, um, you know, I sort of compile that accordingly.

[00:12:44] I think a lot of times for me in watching it a second time and analyzing and in breaking the scenes down, oftentimes I find that I enjoy a show more than when I did on my first watch.

[00:12:57] Hmm.

[00:12:57] Because I can appreciate the facets and what they're trying to do with a character or with a scene, or I pick up on little visual details or, you know, sound design stuff.

[00:13:06] And I can see the skill and the craftsmanship that they're putting into it, or I understand the characters motivations a little bit more.

[00:13:13] So it almost works in reverse sometimes depending on the show.

[00:13:17] Well, that's what I really value about your presence.

[00:13:19] Lots of things, but that in particular, cause that is something I'm absolutely not geared to do.

[00:13:25] The visual.

[00:13:25] The visual stuff.

[00:13:26] I mean, I've, I only just learned Dutch angle this year and I'm very proud of myself whenever I recognize it's a whole lot.

[00:13:31] You've used it multiple times.

[00:13:33] You're doing that.

[00:13:33] You're doing that again.

[00:13:34] Yeah.

[00:13:34] So it's really helpful to me to have that frame, that lens through which you're looking at things because it, you know, it's not something I have.

[00:13:43] Sure.

[00:13:43] Right. Let's go into Mark G. Mark says, hi all.

[00:13:47] Yes.

[00:13:47] Me again, just in case I'm not too late.

[00:13:50] Another thought.

[00:13:51] So we have confirmation of the stranger is Gandalf, something we have all suspected with the crumbs that they've been dropping all season.

[00:13:58] I'm fine with that.

[00:13:59] I suppose though it is a bit R2 in C3PO.

[00:14:04] I'm just glad they've cleared it up now rather than having to drag it into another season as a mystery.

[00:14:10] I agree.

[00:14:10] Amen to that.

[00:14:11] Absolutely.

[00:14:12] Thank you for putting it to bed.

[00:14:13] No more mystery boxes.

[00:14:15] It's unanimous.

[00:14:16] We don't need the extra drama of the mystery, right?

[00:14:19] There's a, this is a dramatic enough world with a dramatic of enough storyline.

[00:14:24] So seriously,

[00:14:24] but I think I detected a similar style clue being dropped about the dark wizard.

[00:14:29] The phrase old friend screams Sauron.

[00:14:32] It's how he greets Gandalf and Isengard.

[00:14:35] Well, I've made my peace with Gandalf.

[00:14:38] I'm very worried about this actually being Sauron.

[00:14:41] It really changes the dynamic between him and Gandalf and calls into question why Gandalf would have such respect and trust in him up to early fellowship,

[00:14:50] knowing that he was knowing what he was doing and doing in Rune all this time.

[00:14:57] Can they really make this work?

[00:15:00] I'm hoping that old friend is just how all is story address each other.

[00:15:04] But I think we might ignore this coding at our peril, or I may be just greedy for more internet.

[00:15:10] Thanks again.

[00:15:12] Kaiser in Scotland.

[00:15:13] Thank you for writing in.

[00:15:16] And yes, I think I was kind of thinking that too, in my head was like, Hmm, is it that are they all old friends?

[00:15:23] That's why I kind of asked that pre lore question.

[00:15:25] Like what were all the is story doing prior to being shot into the atmosphere.

[00:15:31] They always got together at festivals, right?

[00:15:34] Yeah.

[00:15:34] Everybody knew each other.

[00:15:35] There's there's parties, you know, because the story are singular and in essence.

[00:15:41] Yes, they absolutely are.

[00:15:43] This was a one time attempt by the Valar to find some way without dominating overpowering intervening directly kind of whatever.

[00:15:54] Right.

[00:15:54] To urge, encourage and assist the peoples of Middle Earth to resist.

[00:15:58] Because everyone knows that half measures are always the best way to go.

[00:16:03] Well, having used full measures once or twice and not having come out well, I think, you know.

[00:16:09] I don't know.

[00:16:10] I actually, I disagree with that, Marilyn, because I actually think bringing the elves to Ammon was a half measure.

[00:16:19] Oh, interesting.

[00:16:20] Okay.

[00:16:21] Well, if you see it that way, yeah.

[00:16:22] Because you're not fixing the problem.

[00:16:24] You are just removing people from it.

[00:16:27] I was thinking half measures in terms of rather than saying to the elves, we really think it's a good idea for you to come here that that to me, coming from, you know, angels and archangels.

[00:16:40] Is not really offering a choice to beings who have never seen them before.

[00:16:47] Oh, no.

[00:16:47] Whereas in this case, they are specifically forbidden from showing any power or domination or direct confrontation.

[00:16:55] Right.

[00:16:56] With anybody.

[00:16:57] I think you're bringing up sort of a more coercion versus free will kind of thing.

[00:17:02] Yeah.

[00:17:03] Which to me, what I'm saying is, as far as half measures, like Middle Earth was destroyed by Morgoth.

[00:17:10] Yeah.

[00:17:10] And rather than fix the problem, rather than actually go for Morgoth and fix the problem, they said, you know what?

[00:17:17] But we'll just bring you all over here.

[00:17:19] Why don't you all come live with us in this bubble, in this bubble that we've created, this artificial bubble.

[00:17:25] Right.

[00:17:25] It was a bad decision.

[00:17:26] It was a bad decision.

[00:17:27] And I think I would call it a half measure.

[00:17:29] I think Manway's constantly taking half measures, right?

[00:17:32] Morgoth will be in chains for three ages.

[00:17:35] Ah, okay.

[00:17:36] Right.

[00:17:36] I think constantly, constantly second guessing himself and creating more problems down the line.

[00:17:43] The case against Manway continues through Silmarillion stories.

[00:17:46] If you've not listened to Silmarillion stories, you won't get that.

[00:17:49] But why don't you, why don't you come join us?

[00:17:51] We have a lot of fun on that show.

[00:17:54] Speaking of the Silmarillion pods, let's jump over to Sarah J and then we'll come back to Peter OH's voicemail.

[00:18:01] Okay.

[00:18:02] When I saw the witch's hat and the stars almost highlighted in the sky, my first thought was the rune that Gandalf signs his name with on Bilbo's door in The Hobbit and on the fireworks in L-O-T-R.

[00:18:17] Love your work.

[00:18:18] You're currently listening to this and going through the Silmarillion pods as well.

[00:18:23] Also a shout out to the Silo pod.

[00:18:25] Yay, Silo!

[00:18:27] Thank you, Sarah.

[00:18:28] And I know Alicia is gearing up for that right now, is actually on a podcast with her and Luke today talking about Dune.

[00:18:35] Yes.

[00:18:35] And we were talking about Silo a little bit and they're excited.

[00:18:38] They've got their screeners and they're going to be able to stay to pace with the episodes.

[00:18:43] So very exciting news.

[00:18:44] I'm not sure that the constellation reminds me of the G rune though.

[00:18:50] I mean, except insofar as it looks kind of rune-like, if you will.

[00:18:55] You could tip it on one side and see it almost like a pie in a way.

[00:19:00] I kind of read Sarah's email as like she had a memory of a visual image, but I don't think we've checked the visual image.

[00:19:08] It's a vibe check.

[00:19:09] It's a vibe check.

[00:19:10] It's a vibe check.

[00:19:10] I see what you're saying, Sarah.

[00:19:12] I'm with you.

[00:19:12] Yeah.

[00:19:14] All right.

[00:19:15] Peter OH, voicemail?

[00:19:17] Yes.

[00:19:17] Lore Master Peter OH, one of our top tier subscribers and has been with us for a very long time.

[00:19:23] Thank you, Peter, for all of your ongoing support.

[00:19:27] And it's lovely to get a voicemail from you.

[00:19:29] Yes.

[00:19:29] Very nice.

[00:19:30] Very nice.

[00:19:31] Hello, David, John and Marilyn.

[00:19:33] Hope you folks are doing well.

[00:19:35] I wanted to give my thoughts on the show's treatment of the Astari.

[00:19:38] Back in early season one.

[00:19:39] Back in early season one, I thought the stranger was probably Sauron, but like most people, I was leaning heavily towards Gandalf by the end of season one.

[00:19:46] Fast forward to the first episode of season two.

[00:19:48] I thought the actor Daniel Wayman was giving classic Gandalf vibes in his interactions with Nori.

[00:19:53] I'm talking about his mannerisms and his overall demeanor.

[00:19:57] Also, we know that book Gandalf had a huge affinity for Hobbits and I like that the show is attempting to give the origin story for that relationship.

[00:20:04] Moving on to the dark wizard for a second, I too would be disappointed if he turns out to be Saruman.

[00:20:09] While the show is taking liberties with the timeline, TV Gandalf's actions and motivations are still in harmony with the writings of Tolkien.

[00:20:16] But if the dark wizard is Saruman, that would fundamentally change the dynamic between him and Gandalf, and it's a little difficult to swallow.

[00:20:23] I'm hoping the dark wizard is one of the blue Astari.

[00:20:26] I know on the pod it was speculated that the show creators did not have the rights to the blue wizards, but I'm pretty sure the Lord of the Rings mentions five wizards.

[00:20:34] So maybe it's just the blue part they had to leave out.

[00:20:37] I also wonder if the dark wizard will eventually find work in Angmar.

[00:20:40] The writings state that the Witch King was a powerful sorcerer in his day.

[00:20:44] Were the Nine Rings powerful enough to enslave a mire?

[00:20:47] I'm thinking not.

[00:20:48] Also, the Nazgul were originally human, not mire.

[00:20:51] But who knows where the show will go.

[00:20:54] Also, in Tolkien's writings, Saruman came to Middle-earth first, followed by a reluctant Gandalf.

[00:20:59] I'm hoping that this has no bearing on the show wizards.

[00:21:02] Regardless, I'm looking forward to more Ciaran Hines and Daniel Wayman in season three.

[00:21:07] Lastly, I wanted to give two thumbs up to the Grand Elf reveal.

[00:21:11] Long story short, it worked for me.

[00:21:13] Yes, it was a little cutesy, but the hobbits in the Shire have always been a little cutesy,

[00:21:17] so I'm not sure why this came as a surprise to anyone.

[00:21:20] Also, I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of season five the show was drawn a line from Nori and Poppy to the future Tuck and Brandybuck clans.

[00:21:28] Perhaps we will see Nori inventing the game of golf.

[00:21:31] Anyway, thanks as always for the stellar coverage.

[00:21:34] It has really enhanced my enjoyment of season two.

[00:21:36] I'm already looking forward to season three.

[00:21:38] All the best, guys.

[00:21:40] It's so lovely to hear Peter OH.

[00:21:42] He's been with us for so long, and I think this is the first time I've ever heard his voice.

[00:21:46] Yes.

[00:21:46] So, Peter, thanks for writing in.

[00:21:47] You are, I don't know, you should almost be sitting in on one of these podcasts.

[00:21:52] He knows his lore.

[00:21:53] Seriously.

[00:21:54] He knows a lot.

[00:21:56] Thoughts?

[00:21:56] There was a lot there.

[00:21:58] I'm glad that the Grand Elf reveal worked for you.

[00:22:02] Genuinely.

[00:22:02] I never begrudge people enjoyment of things that I did not enjoy.

[00:22:07] Yeah, I think it will be fine.

[00:22:10] It will be fine if it's Gandalf and Saruman.

[00:22:14] It's not going to completely break me, but I think what they will eventually get to, if that is the case, is they're going to say, every time an Ishtar goes to Middle-Earth and gets incarnated, they lose their memory.

[00:22:31] Mm-hmm.

[00:22:31] And this story has played out before.

[00:22:34] Right.

[00:22:35] And I kind of hate it.

[00:22:36] I kind of hate that if that's the case.

[00:22:38] These are immortal beings and these are extremely powerful angels, essentially.

[00:22:44] Just because they're trapped in a mortal body does not mean they lose that completely.

[00:22:49] And I would be very disappointed if they just say, well, the same thing happened in the Second Age.

[00:22:55] Yeah, I mean, I get that your memory might be scrambled if you arrive in the middle of a meteorite.

[00:23:02] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:03] But surely Kyrton would give you a smoother trip across the sea and the ship.

[00:23:08] Right, exactly.

[00:23:09] All of your bits would still be intact.

[00:23:12] Yeah.

[00:23:13] Yeah.

[00:23:13] I just don't think that would work for me.

[00:23:16] And call him Purple Wizard.

[00:23:17] I don't care.

[00:23:19] Yeah.

[00:23:20] Polka dot wizard.

[00:23:21] You know, you don't know what I mean.

[00:23:22] Just don't make him...

[00:23:23] Yeah, I mean, the complications of how they would explain that.

[00:23:26] And it's almost like, oh, and then they woke up and it was all a dream, which Tolkien absolutely hated.

[00:23:34] To him, that kind of an approach to story completely eradicated its possibility as a fairy story.

[00:23:41] It has to be real within the world and within the experiences.

[00:23:45] So...

[00:23:46] Like we talked about on the Lorecast.

[00:23:47] Exactly.

[00:23:48] Eutrophication and fairy stories, yeah.

[00:23:50] Exactly, exactly.

[00:23:51] So, interesting speculation about, you know, where are primary Hartfoots and stores and everybody are going to end up?

[00:24:02] And, you know, whose ancestors are they going to be and so on and so on.

[00:24:07] I do like the fact that...

[00:24:10] I'll say this about it being Gandalf and then going into this history of the stores and the hobbits and all of that.

[00:24:23] I actually kind of like that it's Gandalf if we're going to say, okay, we're going to take these folks and they're going to end up over the Shire and Tom's going to be there.

[00:24:31] And Gandalf and why he has such an affinity for the hobbits in the Third Age.

[00:24:38] That on a meta level works for me and I'm kind of happy that that is connected.

[00:24:43] It is.

[00:24:43] Whether the reveal of the Gandalf, you know, what have you.

[00:24:48] However...

[00:24:48] And it may have...

[00:24:49] Gandalf might have been fine if it were just structured differently in the context of the story and how it was delivered.

[00:24:57] But anyway, you know, that kind of is one of those nitpicky details.

[00:25:01] But I'm happy that we're...

[00:25:05] Gandalf's relationship with the hobbits is rooted in something now on screen.

[00:25:10] Yeah, and a lot of people are saying that they love the fact that we now see why in the Third Age Gandalf chose to spend a couple of years with Tom Bombadil after everything was accomplished before he sailed west.

[00:25:23] That can't happen.

[00:25:24] That's nice too.

[00:25:24] That can't happen if his memory gets erased.

[00:25:27] Mm-hmm.

[00:25:28] Right.

[00:25:28] They're going to play a lot really fast and loose.

[00:25:30] I honestly kind of want to stop talking about this though because...

[00:25:33] Sure.

[00:25:34] At this point, we're working ourselves up over something that may never happen.

[00:25:37] That's true.

[00:25:38] That's a very good point.

[00:25:39] That's a very good point.

[00:25:40] Excellent point.

[00:25:41] Thank you, John.

[00:25:42] Okay, next up is Double T.

[00:25:44] Good to hear from you, Double T.

[00:25:45] It's been a minute since we've got a feedback from you.

[00:25:48] Anyway, they say,

[00:25:50] Hello, all firstly, I think the scene in Numenor may have been misinterpreted.

[00:25:56] The scroll they handed to the priest...

[00:25:58] Okay, so this is an email.

[00:25:59] We're still talking about wizards, but he's got some wizard stuff in there and then we've got some other stuff.

[00:26:03] Mm-hmm.

[00:26:05] So, the scroll they handed to the priest wasn't meant to be evidence.

[00:26:09] It was just the charges laid against Muriel and the faithful and the royal decree against them.

[00:26:15] You can see that the text looks the same as the scrolls they stuck against walls and doors.

[00:26:22] After all, what does an authoritarian regime need with evidence?

[00:26:27] That's a good pickup.

[00:26:28] I miss that and that's a nice little detail.

[00:26:32] Mm-hmm.

[00:26:32] Continuing, also here's some more for you to do some hounding on what do you think of these quotes from the showrunners regarding Gandalf.

[00:26:41] Deep in the history of Middle Earth, Volume 12, this is a quote,

[00:26:45] Tolkien confirms that Elorion, aka Gandalf, had already visited Middle Earth.

[00:26:50] Something that we have talked about on previous shows and...

[00:26:53] And just half an hour ago.

[00:26:55] Yeah.

[00:26:55] Within the last hour.

[00:26:57] And then, I think even in our Second Age podcast.

[00:27:01] Yep.

[00:27:02] So, Tolkien left it open that Gandalf may have come earlier than the Third Age.

[00:27:06] Gandalf the Grey falls to the Balrog and then is sent back as Gandalf the White, who's not exactly the same guy, but he's the same guy.

[00:27:15] This is the idea that perhaps there was an even earlier iteration before he was the Grey.

[00:27:21] We have a destination and an arc and a journey for him that will hopefully tie into the later stories in a way that is unexpected.

[00:27:30] You might also eventually see him get a hat.

[00:27:34] Which seems to suggest that they're giving Gandalf an earlier incarnation.

[00:27:48] Yeah.

[00:27:49] And then, the first incarnation, where he deals with the evil blue wizards in the East might allow them to still have Gandalf the Grey sent to Western Middle Earth in the Third Age, consistent with the lore.

[00:27:59] I think that's quite nicely thought out.

[00:28:03] To my surprise, this was my favorite season of TV so far this year.

[00:28:07] Yeah.

[00:28:07] A load of the podcast as well.

[00:28:09] Double T in Melbourne, Australia.

[00:28:11] Thanks, Double T.

[00:28:12] What do we think?

[00:28:14] Yeah, I'm totally fine with them giving Gandalf.

[00:28:17] Like, I think Marilyn, you may have been more bothered by being Gandalf than I was, right?

[00:28:22] Not bothered, just disappointed.

[00:28:24] I see what you're saying.

[00:28:26] For the potential of the blue wizards, right?

[00:28:28] Right.

[00:28:29] Not because it's Gandalf necessarily.

[00:28:30] I wish they had treated them the same way they treated Adar.

[00:28:34] As open canvas, we can do some wonderful creative things here.

[00:28:39] And, uh...

[00:28:40] They didn't even have to call them blue wizards.

[00:28:41] They could have just been wizards.

[00:28:43] No.

[00:28:43] Right, exactly.

[00:28:43] You know, Istari.

[00:28:45] But I, you know, I hear how people are so excited.

[00:28:48] Everybody loves Gandalf.

[00:28:49] It's nice to have a familiar figure.

[00:28:51] I don't think that they needed to establish, you know, why Gandalf was so fond of the Hobbits,

[00:28:56] because they do plenty of that in the Third Age.

[00:28:59] But, you know, whatever.

[00:29:01] They just asked in an interview, Sir Ian McKellen, they asked him,

[00:29:05] will you come back as Gandalf if they do an Aragorn origin film?

[00:29:08] Because that's in talks.

[00:29:10] Yeah.

[00:29:10] He said, if I'm still alive.

[00:29:12] Yeah.

[00:29:13] Basically.

[00:29:13] He's got such a sense of humor.

[00:29:15] Yeah.

[00:29:16] He's wonderful.

[00:29:16] He's absolutely wonderful.

[00:29:19] All right.

[00:29:20] Shall we move on?

[00:29:21] Yeah, that wraps us up for the Affairs of Wizards.

[00:29:25] Next up, we have Adaptation Choices.

[00:29:27] What do we do with Peter Jackson?

[00:29:29] I love Nancy's commentary here.

[00:29:31] Do you want to keep reading or do you want one of us to take over?

[00:29:34] Do you want to take over, Marilyn?

[00:29:35] Sure.

[00:29:35] Great.

[00:29:36] Unless John had a hankering.

[00:29:38] No, no, no.

[00:29:39] That's perfectly fine.

[00:29:41] All right.

[00:29:41] Amos W.

[00:29:42] Hey, all.

[00:29:43] Love the second season of Rings of Power.

[00:29:45] I feel like it was a significant improvement on the writing from season one.

[00:29:49] Yeah, I think we're pretty much all in agreement with that.

[00:29:51] Yes.

[00:29:52] A couple of things I wanted to note.

[00:29:54] I loved all of the nods to other classical works of literature from the mosaic Let My People Go in the first episode to the Julius Caesar reference of Adar stabbing Sauron instead of crowning him.

[00:30:05] A moment that they mirrored perfectly in the last episode with the orcs stabbing Adar in the turn.

[00:30:12] I loved it all.

[00:30:13] Maybe Marilyn can weigh in on this, but Celebrimbor's death was given strong Saint Edmund of East Anglia vibes.

[00:30:20] Saint Edmund was a king of East Anglia when the Viking great heathen army overran his kingdom and then used him for target practice and shot him full of arrows.

[00:30:29] Celebrimbor's deathbed prophecy felt like something straight out of a saintly hagiography.

[00:30:33] Yeah, I certainly agree with that.

[00:30:36] As I said before, I haven't actually watched the episode.

[00:30:39] I've listened to parts of it.

[00:30:41] I've heard people talking about it and so forth.

[00:30:43] So I know in general what happened and I can definitely agree that that is a very similar circumstance.

[00:30:49] If I can interject here quickly too on what Amos is saying, this is one of the strengths of having a writer's room with showrunners who have a strong creative vision.

[00:31:01] Is that a human being is going to make these tie-ins and comparisons and pull all of this kind of stuff together in a creative way.

[00:31:09] I mean, chat GPT may be great for summarizing your meeting notes or, you know, taking notes while you're working in the writer's room.

[00:31:17] But it's really the human ability to create these crazy allusions to things.

[00:31:26] Not crazy, but you know what I mean?

[00:31:27] These wide leaping allusions to things, especially in visual reference that I think just creates for a richer body of work.

[00:31:36] So I just really hate the fact that the tech influence on studio productions is squeezing the writing because it's without the writing, we have nothing.

[00:31:49] Yeah.

[00:31:50] And of course, Tolkien would have known about that whole reference in the saint story and everything else.

[00:31:55] Yeah.

[00:31:56] Because not only was it, you know, a Catholic saint's story, but it was also part of Anglo-Saxon history, something he would have known.

[00:32:04] So, to continue with Amos, I know John had trouble with Theo being the leader of Pelaguer, with Theo's only qualification being that he is a healer.

[00:32:12] And to John, I just want to say, the hands of a king are the hands of a healer.

[00:32:17] No, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:32:19] That's not, that's not exchangeable, folks.

[00:32:22] That's, that goes one way.

[00:32:24] This is a square rectangle.

[00:32:26] This is a square quadrilateral situation here, right?

[00:32:29] Like the, the, no, I'm sorry.

[00:32:32] I'm sorry.

[00:32:34] I'm sorry.

[00:32:35] There are broken people and they need healing.

[00:32:38] And he's a, he's, he's a kid who, who's gotta, who's gotta.

[00:32:43] Don't play with me like that.

[00:32:44] The hands of a king are the hands of a healer.

[00:32:47] The hands of a healer are not necessarily the hands of a king.

[00:32:51] Right.

[00:32:52] Otherwise you got a lot of kings running around and, and it's no way to determine your system of government.

[00:32:57] Help, help, I'm being repressed.

[00:33:02] It was interesting because, because Amos wasn't the only one who came up with this particular attribution, but I tend to agree with you, John.

[00:33:10] I think that is a more specific reference to Numenorean kings and not Southlander healers.

[00:33:16] I'm watching you, Amos.

[00:33:18] But, at the same time, I will still maintain that, um, for Southlanders and wild folk and all the rest of it, someone who had the knowledge of healing would have been looked up to.

[00:33:29] Whatever they eventually called him.

[00:33:31] So.

[00:33:32] The witch king of Aengstmar is what I'm going to call him.

[00:33:35] No, no, no.

[00:33:36] The, uh, the, the king of the dead is what I'm going to call him.

[00:33:39] Okay.

[00:33:39] That's my guess.

[00:33:40] All right.

[00:33:41] To get back to Amos here.

[00:33:43] I think my biggest disappointment of this season was that Numenore was too small.

[00:33:48] The political dealings that they showed us seemed more like the politics of a small city-state, not a kingdom on the verge of cross-continent colonization.

[00:33:56] Like they only showed us one nobleman, one candidate for kingship, one guild leader.

[00:34:01] It just felt rather small.

[00:34:03] Maybe I'm just comparing it too closely to A Song of Ice and Fire, but shouldn't there have been a lot more noblemen, town governors, et cetera, who needed to weigh in on who should be king?

[00:34:13] Obviously, they only had so much time that they could spend on this plotline and couldn't do a whole estate general or anything.

[00:34:19] But this is one of the few things I felt they did better in season one.

[00:34:23] Interesting.

[00:34:24] I'm hopeful that they expand Numenore in a satisfying way in the next season with Elendil's plotline.

[00:34:30] Well, it's true that there's a whole chunk of Numenore that we haven't seen and that is, you know, well, there's several chunks, but the one I'm thinking of now is the direction that Elendil is heading, which is the western portion.

[00:34:44] That's a good call because we did see him writing off and so that means they're going to expand the story that way.

[00:34:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:34:50] And if we have the Adar storyline off the table now, we may diminish and have a little bit more room.

[00:34:57] But then I go back to my earlier criticism of that's what you get with eight seasons.

[00:35:03] You know, you're artificially constraining yourself.

[00:35:07] Eight episodes.

[00:35:09] Sorry, eight seasons.

[00:35:10] I apologize.

[00:35:11] Yeah, eight episodes.

[00:35:13] We're not breaking news here.

[00:35:14] No, no.

[00:35:15] And we get a lot more internal politics and goings on in Numenore last season.

[00:35:22] So it was pretty light this year.

[00:35:24] Again, I've said it before.

[00:35:26] I'll say it again.

[00:35:27] Just wait.

[00:35:28] Just wait until season two or three to introduce Numenore at all and then do it right.

[00:35:33] Mm-hmm.

[00:35:33] You know, I just don't think there was really nothing last season that felt like it was necessary

[00:35:39] to the main plot.

[00:35:42] And yeah, I think you're right.

[00:35:44] You're right on Amos.

[00:35:45] I think the island felt small in a way that it should be this great grand place.

[00:35:51] And so that's, yeah, minor criticisms.

[00:35:54] I think overall, I'm excited to see what they're going to do with this, especially now that we don't have a Reggie on around.

[00:36:00] Now they're going to have a lot more plot.

[00:36:04] Yeah, that was that was basically my thought.

[00:36:06] I think because they have so many storylines going continuously and I know for some people that's a challenge.

[00:36:13] I don't mind it.

[00:36:14] I like being kept up to date and sort of a more or less continuous timeline.

[00:36:20] So, you know, meanwhile in our metal loss, we see this or that or whatever.

[00:36:24] I think they're worried that people are going to forget.

[00:36:26] And so every so often they feel like they have to say, okay, so yes, meanwhile, back at the ranch, you know, back in our metal loss, whatever.

[00:36:32] But not everybody likes that approach.

[00:36:35] Yeah. And I and I think it would have been really magical to at the end of the season.

[00:36:39] We think all hope is lost.

[00:36:41] And then you just have the Numenoreans arrive in polar gear.

[00:36:43] Mm-hmm.

[00:36:44] Right.

[00:36:45] Oh, that's an interesting new faction.

[00:36:47] We're going to explore next season.

[00:36:48] Don't even give me any like arguments or anything.

[00:36:51] Right. Just because we we know there.

[00:36:53] I'm not going to go into the pot.

[00:36:55] You know, keep your secrets.

[00:36:55] I'm not playing it tonight.

[00:36:58] But but we know that the Numenoreans come over at some point and start doing a little exploring.

[00:37:05] And we got that at the end of this season.

[00:37:07] But wouldn't it have been really interesting to get these random Numenoreans just come here?

[00:37:12] And what if they just reveal a sealed or he's like, hi, nice to meet you.

[00:37:16] I'm a sealed or and we're like, yeah, you know, I'm just thinking like that's so much better of a way to hype it than like, okay, we're back here to do not much again.

[00:37:25] Well, I mean, that's kind of what they were representing in season one, I think, which I know you feel that maybe they didn't really even need to be there at all in season one would have been very difficult to establish the relationship between Galadriel and Halbran slash Sauron if we didn't have that kind of a, you know, you know, I don't fully agree.

[00:37:44] I agree.

[00:37:45] No, I know.

[00:37:45] I think you could have done exactly what you did with the Numenorean army, but with the Elvish armies.

[00:37:52] Yep.

[00:37:54] I just like the fact that by establishing them in season one as rescuing.

[00:38:00] And then at season two, we have creepy Camden coming in and saying, oh, yeah, if you want to eat, you got to cut down a lot of trees.

[00:38:06] All right.

[00:38:07] Yeah, that's how they're showing the shift.

[00:38:09] Yeah.

[00:38:10] Because of the compressed timeline.

[00:38:12] I get what you're saying.

[00:38:13] Yeah.

[00:38:14] Well, I get what you're saying.

[00:38:15] So we're rewriting now and I don't want to do that.

[00:38:18] Yes, we are.

[00:38:18] So let's go back to Amos's.

[00:38:20] They're not going to make the show again.

[00:38:22] Email.

[00:38:24] And speaking of plot lines for future seasons, which we just were.

[00:38:28] Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Smeagol a store?

[00:38:32] Should we be looking for Smeagol and Deagle in upcoming seasons?

[00:38:35] No.

[00:38:35] What do you all think?

[00:38:36] No.

[00:38:37] If they do.

[00:38:38] They were stores.

[00:38:38] They were stores.

[00:38:40] That is correct.

[00:38:40] I'm saying no, don't look for them.

[00:38:42] No, the timeline.

[00:38:44] I mean, that would just be an amazing compression.

[00:38:48] I'm not sure that it would get enough oxygen to carry.

[00:38:52] Carry.

[00:38:52] We are.

[00:38:53] Okay.

[00:38:53] So just to put it into perspectives, we are currently towards the end of the second age.

[00:38:58] The Lord of the Rings does not happen until several thousand years into the third age.

[00:39:04] The ring obviously slows down your aging, but does it slow it down thousands of years worth?

[00:39:11] I think that's too unbelievable.

[00:39:12] That's too much.

[00:39:14] Yeah.

[00:39:14] So I would.

[00:39:15] And, and don't tell me that like the Lord of the Rings happens a couple hundred years

[00:39:19] later.

[00:39:19] You know, don't do that kind of time compression.

[00:39:22] Well, yeah, we'll see.

[00:39:24] We will see.

[00:39:25] We don't know how long it sat at the bottom.

[00:39:27] Oh, keep your secrets.

[00:39:32] Right.

[00:39:33] Anyway, I cannot wait for season three.

[00:39:34] And thank you, Lorehounds for your amazing coverage.

[00:39:36] Thank you very much, Amos.

[00:39:37] And yeah, I can't wait for season three as well.

[00:39:41] Yeah.

[00:39:42] Matthew, why?

[00:39:43] I love the Jackson movies, but I haven't watched them more than four times or so.

[00:39:47] And I don't have all their lines memorized.

[00:39:49] Well, I would be astounded if you did, Matthew.

[00:39:52] And I should have started by saying thank you for writing in.

[00:39:55] I've read the books a couple of times and I'm slowly working my way through the Silmarillion.

[00:39:59] Bravo.

[00:40:01] I don't mind the many references to the Jackson movies or to later quotes in the Lord of

[00:40:09] the Lord of the Rings.

[00:40:09] I don't notice them.

[00:40:10] Still, there were a few times when something stood out or didn't feel right.

[00:40:14] And I didn't like the reference.

[00:40:15] I do wish they hadn't felt the need to bring into the show all the familiar slash fan favorite

[00:40:20] characters that they possibly could, e.g. Gandalf, and had been more confident in telling

[00:40:25] their own story with new or lesser known second age characters.

[00:40:28] Yeah, I'm with you on this myth.

[00:40:30] I wasn't a fan of making Galadriel heavily involved with Sauron and partly responsible for his

[00:40:35] rise.

[00:40:36] My understanding is that she's more in the background in the second age and not completely

[00:40:39] fooled by him.

[00:40:41] Lore wise, this is absolutely true.

[00:40:44] And that she was already one of the oldest elves in Middle-earth in the second age, which

[00:40:47] she doesn't really act like in the show.

[00:40:49] Also true.

[00:40:51] I have no problem with Morfid Clark's acting and her character.

[00:40:54] I just wish the character was given another name.

[00:40:57] Like Calibrian, for instance.

[00:40:59] I've actually thought this myself.

[00:41:01] I can't remember if I made it up myself or if I read it somewhere.

[00:41:06] Again, you destroy the Galadriel-Sauron connection by doing this.

[00:41:10] But what if this had been Calibrian instead of Galadriel?

[00:41:15] I'm not actually into it.

[00:41:17] I think you need, if you're going to have someone go toe-to-toe with Sauron, it needs

[00:41:20] to be a Noldu who lived in the light of the trees.

[00:41:25] I just don't think.

[00:41:25] Some of the Galadriel stature.

[00:41:27] Yeah.

[00:41:27] I don't think Calibrian has that stature.

[00:41:31] Yeah.

[00:41:32] No.

[00:41:32] She is a...

[00:41:33] You're right.

[00:41:33] She's a lesser elf.

[00:41:34] Sorry.

[00:41:35] I'm just going to do it power level-wise.

[00:41:37] Lesser elf.

[00:41:38] Sure.

[00:41:38] Sure.

[00:41:40] Matthew continues,

[00:41:41] I'm sure there would be ways to give her a backstory which makes her determined to

[00:41:44] be out hunting Sauron, such as a presumed dead father.

[00:41:48] All that aside, I loved episode eight.

[00:41:51] It didn't hit me as a bumpy episode, unlike you guys.

[00:41:54] It was my favorite episode of the whole show so far.

[00:41:57] There were parts of episode seven I didn't like.

[00:41:59] Hmm.

[00:41:59] Stopping the elven charge.

[00:42:01] No one's going to hear the halt command.

[00:42:02] Come on.

[00:42:03] That took me out.

[00:42:04] Ah, they got elvish ears.

[00:42:05] You're fine.

[00:42:06] And it could have been one huge Osanwe, right?

[00:42:09] Mm-hmm.

[00:42:10] Although the Sermon just really have kind of left Osanwe alone, which is probably a

[00:42:14] good choice when I think about it.

[00:42:15] Yeah.

[00:42:16] And I understand but didn't like the kiss either.

[00:42:18] And I really enjoyed the final confrontation between Galadriel and Sauron.

[00:42:23] It was a real moment of redemption and moral triumph, even in outward defeat

[00:42:27] and what would have been death.

[00:42:29] Now, here's something I've been banging my spoon on my high chair about.

[00:42:33] I love that image.

[00:42:36] I've seen no one mentioning that Diagl and Smiagl were stores, or at least descended from

[00:42:40] stores, and that they would find the ring before it made its way to Bilbo.

[00:42:44] You made the comment that the show is making connections to everything it possibly can.

[00:42:48] Surely in a show about the rings of power, it's not going to skip the connection to the background of the guy who had the one ring for hundreds of years and plays a huge part in the books and its eventual demise.

[00:42:59] Instead, everyone's talking about the founding of the Shire as the future for the halflings in the show.

[00:43:04] I'm sure that's the destination for a lot of them, especially Nori.

[00:43:08] But surely at least some of the stores are going to end up in the Vale of Anduin.

[00:43:12] Let's stop there.

[00:43:13] Let's stop there.

[00:43:15] All right.

[00:43:16] Keep your secrets.

[00:43:17] Yeah.

[00:43:17] Yeah.

[00:43:18] I was just like, oh, wait.

[00:43:20] Oh, this.

[00:43:20] I did not take the spoiler out of this one editing it.

[00:43:22] You didn't look closely enough.

[00:43:23] Yeah.

[00:43:24] Anyway.

[00:43:25] Spoiler aside, we already talked about this a little bit and, you know, the time compression problem.

[00:43:33] I mean, I suppose they could.

[00:43:36] We could have characters who have those names, but.

[00:43:39] Yeah.

[00:43:39] I think that they're never going to be.

[00:43:41] I would accept.

[00:43:42] Right.

[00:43:42] Like have somebody named Deagle and be like, oh, yeah, it's a family name.

[00:43:45] It gets passed down.

[00:43:46] Right.

[00:43:46] Exactly.

[00:43:47] Exactly.

[00:43:48] Great.

[00:43:48] And of course, you could even say that the Gund was intended to be something of an evocation of a certain character's grandmother who was the leader of their folk.

[00:44:02] I think you can say that.

[00:44:04] Settling.

[00:44:05] Settling.

[00:44:05] You're the undoing.

[00:44:06] Yeah.

[00:44:07] Okay.

[00:44:07] Yeah.

[00:44:08] I more meant the other part of it.

[00:44:10] I know.

[00:44:11] I know.

[00:44:12] But yeah, I, I, again, I, you cannot compress the timeline between this and the Lord of the Rings because you need the line of Kings to fail to have Aragorn.

[00:44:22] You need that.

[00:44:23] And you can't have that happen in a couple hundred years.

[00:44:28] Yeah.

[00:44:28] And even if they have technically the rights to the book, why would they want to be moving into this?

[00:44:36] I mean, very, very suggestively, maybe the last shot is of a hand groping in the mud in a river somewhere.

[00:44:43] But yeah, no sense of how long it has been since keep your secrets.

[00:44:50] Right.

[00:44:50] And you really need to make sure that the legend becomes forgotten, right?

[00:44:54] Like that's the whole point of the Lord of the Rings.

[00:44:56] Nobody needs to look out for this.

[00:44:58] Excellent point, John.

[00:44:59] Excellent point.

[00:45:01] I want to jump back on Matthew's comment here about the things that they liked versus the things that we liked and vice versa on the dislikes.

[00:45:12] When I look at the comments online, the sane comments online and, you know, on the wider internet and then on the very rich and lovely conversations going on in our discord, there are all of these things.

[00:45:29] Well, I like this, but I didn't like that.

[00:45:31] And this was okay, but this, and then the other person says the opposite.

[00:45:34] That goes into what I think John described as a lumpy season or lumpy episodes.

[00:45:41] And we see this from time to time in some shows where there's universal praise or it's like a histogram, right?

[00:45:50] Everybody's over on one side, either with like, hey, that was a really great season or everybody's over on the other side saying, oh, that's really not great.

[00:45:56] But when you have a pretty wide distribution of what people liked and didn't like, that's where we see this thing of having uneven seasons and people really enjoying and not enjoying.

[00:46:09] And so, and that's the tricky water for us to navigate as, you know, podcasters and doing critique is to then not yuck other people's yums while we're trying to be critical without being negative.

[00:46:23] And it's evident in Matthew's email here, which is saying like, hey, I like that.

[00:46:28] And you didn't like that.

[00:46:29] Isn't that interesting?

[00:46:30] Right.

[00:46:30] Right.

[00:46:31] You know, I just want to clarify, I actually really didn't have any big issues with episodes one through seven at all.

[00:46:39] Yeah.

[00:46:40] I had some nitpicks, but those are nitpicks.

[00:46:42] Those are, you know, and if I were to rank the season, you know, you'll have to tune into our Christmas episode that we do our top 10 shows of the year, which is for the public, by the way, you can, you can, you can find that on the public feed.

[00:46:54] I think we do an extra thing for subscribers, but our rankings will be public.

[00:47:01] Look, I would put this in the top half of my list.

[00:47:03] I don't know where.

[00:47:04] For sure.

[00:47:05] It's in the top 10.

[00:47:06] I would put it in the top five of my list right now.

[00:47:09] I just don't know where.

[00:47:10] I have to think a little bit more.

[00:47:11] So I want to say this was a really successful season and a clunky finale is not going to ruin that for me.

[00:47:19] Right.

[00:47:19] A bad finale might ruin that for me, but this was not a bad finale.

[00:47:22] This was not a bad finale.

[00:47:23] This was a clunky finale.

[00:47:24] No, no, no.

[00:47:25] And I think our reactions are a reflection of our various experiences of when, where do we start in Tolkien and when.

[00:47:34] And I've noticed differences in response depending upon the answer to that question.

[00:47:41] So thanks, Matthew.

[00:47:43] Lots of stuff there to think about.

[00:47:46] Moving on to Jim.

[00:47:48] Hi, Jim.

[00:47:48] Thank you for writing in.

[00:47:50] He says, when I put my Tolkien hat down.

[00:47:53] There we go.

[00:47:56] And focus on sheer entertainment value.

[00:47:58] I think the second season has redeemed the faults of the first season.

[00:48:01] Couldn't agree more, Jim.

[00:48:04] I was happy to see that they addressed the many mystery box issues from season one and that they didn't leave questions.

[00:48:11] Mithril slash Sauron blood.

[00:48:13] From this season lingering for longer than an episode.

[00:48:16] Yeah, we talked about that a couple of times, I think.

[00:48:19] Don't get me wrong.

[00:48:20] There is certain lore changes that irk me.

[00:48:23] However, with the complicated rites involved in all of this, I'm remaining grateful.

[00:48:27] We are getting a show in the second age at all.

[00:48:30] Hear, hear.

[00:48:31] I think the writing needs to be tightened up a little here and there.

[00:48:34] And as much as the winks to PJ's trilogy are homage to that interpretation,

[00:48:39] I think they're using references, quotes, callbacks far too much now.

[00:48:44] They have laid the foundations they need to trust in the story they want to tell.

[00:48:49] So, fingers crossed for season three.

[00:48:52] What do you think, gentlemen?

[00:48:53] I think the cold open to season three is going to be Elrond skateboarding in on a shield.

[00:49:02] Naughty man.

[00:49:05] I, this is pretty sums up a lot.

[00:49:07] I think I was also very entertained.

[00:49:10] I was, they elevated themselves from season two.

[00:49:17] And I think they're growing as showrunners and writers rooms.

[00:49:21] And, you know, we talked about, I talked about this on the front side of our episode,

[00:49:25] our first part of this feedback episode.

[00:49:27] So, yeah, I kind of agree with everything that Jim is saying here.

[00:49:33] I'm really happy the mystery boxes are over.

[00:49:37] And even when they did set up little mysteries in here, like a vision,

[00:49:42] they paid it off really quickly so that it wasn't this like,

[00:49:45] oh my goodness, you know, what are they doing?

[00:49:48] I mean, it, it, it worked really well.

[00:49:50] And then when we did have little mysteries,

[00:49:53] like what did Sauron do with the mithril and what, you know,

[00:49:56] and the blood and those kinds of things, they weren't,

[00:49:59] hey, here's a, we're dangling a mystery in front of you.

[00:50:02] It was just really nicely woven into the story.

[00:50:05] So I appreciate their, their maturity as, as, um,

[00:50:09] as a production, uh, being able to balance those.

[00:50:13] And the whole Sauron Celebrimbo relationship.

[00:50:17] So good.

[00:50:19] Absolutely.

[00:50:19] So good.

[00:50:20] Fantastic drama.

[00:50:21] I mean, Shakespearean to my mind.

[00:50:24] And I just remember how the three of us with the first couple of episodes,

[00:50:28] we're just really excited.

[00:50:29] Yeah.

[00:50:30] Saying, yes, they have definitely stepped up.

[00:50:33] This is definitely better than season one.

[00:50:34] And I don't think any of us have thought otherwise, you know,

[00:50:38] all the way through.

[00:50:38] Yeah.

[00:50:40] You know, um, something I'm thinking about now is I remember reading the news in

[00:50:45] summer 2023 that when the writer strike had started,

[00:50:51] one of the teams was finished filming and some of the other teams were not

[00:50:55] finished filming on this show,

[00:50:57] which meant that some of the teams were not allowed to change any dialogue

[00:51:01] onset.

[00:51:04] And I'm wondering if Celebrimbo scenes were allowed to be tinkered with and the

[00:51:11] other ones had to go forward with whatever was on the page for some of the

[00:51:14] later episodes.

[00:51:16] That's really interesting, John.

[00:51:17] Thank you for remembering that fact.

[00:51:20] I was also thinking about COVID restrictions when we were talking about,

[00:51:24] you know, the smallest of Numenor.

[00:51:26] There's this thing written on the page about Grand Elf.

[00:51:29] Can we change that?

[00:51:30] No.

[00:51:30] Nope.

[00:51:31] The union says, no, we're keeping it.

[00:51:34] My old friend.

[00:51:38] We're keeping the Grand Elf.

[00:51:40] Yeah.

[00:51:40] Well, hopefully we are finally beyond now all of the COVID and strike related to

[00:51:47] something else will happen to throw.

[00:51:49] You're right.

[00:51:49] You're right.

[00:51:50] Just going to happen.

[00:51:52] Move on.

[00:51:53] Let's move on.

[00:51:54] Let's not jinx anything going forward.

[00:51:56] No, no, no.

[00:51:57] Yes.

[00:51:57] The future is uncertain.

[00:52:00] So what is certain is we have a new section now called character portrayals.

[00:52:04] Yes.

[00:52:05] All right.

[00:52:05] Let's take a quick break.

[00:52:06] When we get back, we will move on to a new section.

[00:52:22] Nicole, did you ever notice how the sign by Ace of Base has really strange key changes?

[00:52:26] I did not, Mark.

[00:52:28] I'm a real person.

[00:52:29] Well, let me tell you about it.

[00:52:30] I'll let you talk about neuroscience gobbledygook.

[00:52:33] Yes.

[00:52:33] I thought you'd never ask.

[00:52:35] This is the Nevermind the Music podcast.

[00:52:36] Where one psychologist.

[00:52:38] And one musician.

[00:52:39] Deep dive into the songs you love.

[00:52:41] So you don't have to.

[00:52:42] And there's plenty of time to get off topic.

[00:52:44] From semi-charmed life to the way you move.

[00:52:46] And who could forget the crossroads.

[00:52:48] Is it the crossroads or the crossroads?

[00:52:51] Save it for the episode, Mark.

[00:52:53] Listen to Nevermind the Music.

[00:52:54] Wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:52:58] Wünschst du dir jemanden, der dich versteht wie kein anderer?

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[00:54:02] And we're back with some character portrayals.

[00:54:06] Jim continues from, it was the last Jim, but I divided the emails because I tried to Nancy it for a minute.

[00:54:14] Only Nancy can truly be Nancy.

[00:54:16] Exactly.

[00:54:16] I'm nowhere near as practiced.

[00:54:19] Jim says, Tom Bombadil slash Rory Kinnear did a great job with guiding the stranger slash Grand Elf this season.

[00:54:29] If you didn't know who the actor was before the show, you should watch The Bank of Dave on Netflix.

[00:54:35] It's a great little movie.

[00:54:36] Okay.

[00:54:37] Hmm.

[00:54:37] I haven't heard of that one.

[00:54:39] Me neither.

[00:54:39] Adar slash Sam Hazeldyne followed the brilliant work from Joseph Maul.

[00:54:45] I am gutted to see his character depart the show, but Adar has fulfilled his purpose in delivering Sarah on his army.

[00:54:53] Agreed.

[00:54:54] Yeah.

[00:54:55] Yeah.

[00:54:55] I would have loved to see it go.

[00:54:57] Mm-hmm.

[00:54:58] My standout performances were without question, Charlie Vickers and Charles Edwards, though.

[00:55:03] The back and forth was spectacular this season.

[00:55:06] The unraveling and realization of the trap Kelly B had fallen into this season was thrilling to watch.

[00:55:16] Kevin is the new punchable Joffrey of the second age.

[00:55:19] Sure.

[00:55:20] Sure.

[00:55:21] Overall, I am sad to see the credits roll on the eighth episode, and I cannot wait to see season three tackle something else that's going to happen.

[00:55:31] I'm editing this out alive.

[00:55:34] Side question for you all.

[00:55:37] Obviously, without spoiling the show for listeners, but if you had to pick an age from Tolkien's works, which age would you choose and why?

[00:55:46] That's a tough question.

[00:55:48] Much depends on who I am.

[00:55:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:55:50] If I were a new minority, I would happily pick the second age.

[00:55:54] Oh, sure.

[00:55:55] And just die.

[00:55:57] What member of what peoples you were.

[00:56:00] Yeah.

[00:56:01] Yeah.

[00:56:02] Mm-hmm.

[00:56:02] And then I would just die long before the whole conflict with the faithful even came up.

[00:56:11] I was just thinking an elf of the second age.

[00:56:14] I mean, there's a lot of adventure to be had, you know, organized and, you know, around and doing stuff.

[00:56:22] Like, there's stuff happening.

[00:56:23] You know, that seems workable for me.

[00:56:25] I mean, my default Dungeons & Dragons character is a half-elf ranger.

[00:56:31] So, you know, put me in a wood.

[00:56:33] I just want to be Elrond.

[00:56:34] No.

[00:56:36] I'll take Elrond, dear.

[00:56:37] Thank you.

[00:56:38] Okay.

[00:56:38] There you go.

[00:56:39] You know, traipsing around the woods, doing that kind of stuff, and keeping the trails safe for, you know, the regular folk of Middle Earth.

[00:56:48] So, I could be down with an elf in the second age, doing stuff, you know, being active.

[00:56:54] You're both in the second age.

[00:56:56] I don't need to die in Valerian.

[00:56:59] No, you're both being too modest.

[00:57:01] I'm picking the years of the trees as an elf in Valinor because I want unlimited time and unlimited access to resources to learn lore.

[00:57:12] That's what I want.

[00:57:12] That's why this podcast exists is because I like learning lore.

[00:57:15] You even have, in the years of the trees, you even have Morgoth as a resource.

[00:57:21] You have Melkor, who's teaching you how to smith.

[00:57:24] You got everybody there.

[00:57:26] There you go.

[00:57:27] You know, I, no, no.

[00:57:30] You get the second age out of here.

[00:57:31] Get the second age out of here.

[00:57:32] I want the trees back.

[00:57:34] My second choice, and one I've often made, if anyone ever asked me the theoretical question of where would you like to live in Middle Earth?

[00:57:45] Would be to be either elf or human in Rivendell post the Three Rings passing.

[00:57:55] Really?

[00:57:57] Because the lore.

[00:57:59] I don't have to live through wars and conflicts and uncertainty and all the rest of it.

[00:58:04] But there I am.

[00:58:05] There's still elves there.

[00:58:07] There's still people who experienced, you know, the great years.

[00:58:11] So that would be my home place.

[00:58:13] But then, come spring, long about my birthday, I think I would wind up in Lory and watch the trees blossom and so forth.

[00:58:22] And then by summertime, I'd be out on the Grey Havens with Cairdan because I always have to spend summer by the ocean.

[00:58:30] And then long about Flamas, August 1st or so, I'd make my way back.

[00:58:35] I'd get special permission.

[00:58:37] Or maybe I would be an elf, so I wouldn't need it to go through the Shire just to see the first harvest and enjoy that sort of thing.

[00:58:44] And then, you know, around about the end of September, early October, I'd be back in Rivendell for the winter.

[00:58:50] Very nice.

[00:58:51] Very nice.

[00:58:52] Wow, you got it all planned out.

[00:58:53] I do.

[00:58:54] I've thought about it.

[00:58:55] Another correct answer I'd take is Gondolin before the fall.

[00:59:01] In the first age, I'd take that.

[00:59:04] Anyway.

[00:59:05] But you're right, John.

[00:59:05] It would be pretty fabulous to actually see the light of the two trees.

[00:59:08] Yeah, I want to see that.

[00:59:10] That sounds great.

[00:59:11] They're always talking it up.

[00:59:13] But then I want to die before all the conflict starts.

[00:59:15] And you're not supposed to die in Nelhenor.

[00:59:18] Do you have to, though?

[00:59:20] I think once you've seen the light of the trees, it's still within you.

[00:59:23] And there's still...

[00:59:24] I see.

[00:59:25] Maybe I just want to be one of the van yarders, singing my stupid songs.

[00:59:29] I've always wanted to be Talari because you live by the ocean and you get to sing.

[00:59:33] Oh, I was just going to quickly say on Jim's email that agreed across the board that acting was really superlative this year.

[00:59:41] Oh, yeah.

[00:59:42] There was a substance to that email.

[00:59:46] Ask us a speculative question and we're off to the races.

[00:59:49] That's right.

[00:59:50] And I just have to echo, Jim, your email that the actors are really leaning into their characters.

[01:00:00] And when they're given good room to move like that, it's really spectacular.

[01:00:05] And I have to say, going through all these feedbacks and then again, seeing all the various conversations in different online forums and things like that, this has been a strongly positive season.

[01:00:19] People have really enjoyed it and are really grooving on it.

[01:00:23] And that...

[01:00:24] I remember, John, we were talking before the season started.

[01:00:27] We were a little nervous.

[01:00:27] We were biting our nails like, oh, is this going to work out?

[01:00:30] How is this going to go?

[01:00:31] And they hit it.

[01:00:33] They really did.

[01:00:34] And a lot of the strength of the season comes down to what Jim is pointing out, is that the acting was on point.

[01:00:42] Yeah.

[01:00:42] They landed Vingalot.

[01:00:44] I deem the Kela Jimbor.

[01:00:50] I also wanted to bring up, Charlie Vickers recently did an interview.

[01:00:55] And he was saying how they didn't tell him he was Sauron at first.

[01:00:59] Oh, isn't that interesting?

[01:01:00] They waited until he had shot two episodes.

[01:01:02] They told him, oh, yeah, you're this villager from the Southlands, you know, long lost king.

[01:01:06] Perfect.

[01:01:07] That is so great.

[01:01:08] And then two episodes in, they're like, so by the way, you're Sauron.

[01:01:11] And somebody in the comments was like, did he get to negotiate a raise now that he's the main guy?

[01:01:18] Seriously.

[01:01:20] Seriously.

[01:01:20] Yeah, I remember him talking about that after the first season.

[01:01:23] It was pretty funny.

[01:01:25] Yeah.

[01:01:26] Well, shall we move on to a voicemail from Vanessa, frequent voicemailer on Kela Brimbor?

[01:01:33] Hi, John, David, Marilyn, and of course, Nancy.

[01:01:36] It's Vanessa from San Jose again.

[01:01:39] Hi, Nancy.

[01:01:39] I'm going to share a theory that I heard this week on the Episode 7 feedback podcast on Dug Too Deep on Bald Move.

[01:01:48] And the timestamp on it is 3537, I believe, if you want to go and listen to it.

[01:01:53] But it was one I haven't heard before.

[01:01:55] And I think it might answer the question we've, of course, discussed ad nauseum, which is, you know, what, what, why does Sauron need Celebrimbor to craft these rings of power?

[01:02:08] And the theory here is that the reason he needs Celebrimbor is that Celebrimbor can create objects of beauty and Sauron can't.

[01:02:17] Sauron, by his nature, is a servant of Morgoth, as an evil creature.

[01:02:22] When he creates, he can only make things, he can only twist or corrupt when he creates.

[01:02:31] His, his things, you know, would be very practical.

[01:02:34] They would be very, you know, he can't bring beauty into his creations.

[01:02:41] And I don't know how true that is to lore, the lore, and I just wanted to get Marilyn's thoughts on that.

[01:02:48] But I thought it was an interesting theory.

[01:02:50] And, you know, because the rings of power, he wants to tempt men and elves and dwarves to use these.

[01:03:01] And, you know, we're superficial creatures in many ways.

[01:03:06] And, you know, we like things that are beautiful.

[01:03:10] We like, you know, first impressions are important.

[01:03:14] And we're, you know, things that are attractive, we're drawn to.

[01:03:18] And the idea here is that because they'll be beautiful, these creatures might be more inclined to use them.

[01:03:26] As opposed to, like, when Sauron goes and he makes the one ring, it's a very simple gold band.

[01:03:33] You know, it has the writings that only light up in fire.

[01:03:36] But it's nothing to, you know, you know, write home about.

[01:03:42] So anyway, I thought it was just an interesting idea.

[01:03:45] And again, I wanted to get your thoughts on it.

[01:03:47] And I hope you guys are having a great week.

[01:03:49] And take care.

[01:03:50] Bye.

[01:03:54] Yeah, I'm, other people have posited this.

[01:03:57] And it's an interesting idea.

[01:03:58] I think it is within the lore to say that those who are at heart evil, well, they cannot create things that are entirely new, period.

[01:04:11] That's basic.

[01:04:12] They can corrupt.

[01:04:13] They can corrupt.

[01:04:14] They can corrupt pre-created things.

[01:04:18] And Tolkien talks about, in The Hobbit, actually, orcs inventing horrible devices and, you know, torture instruments and all that kind of thing.

[01:04:26] But now we're getting into sort of a mishmash between lore and how they're presenting it on the series because in lore, all the rings were created at one time.

[01:04:35] Mm-hmm.

[01:04:37] And so by that...

[01:04:39] Even the one ring?

[01:04:40] Except the one ring.

[01:04:41] Right, right.

[01:04:42] Yeah.

[01:04:42] But all the other rings were created all at the same time.

[01:04:46] The movies have chosen, excuse me, the series has chosen to have them, you know, first the three and then the seven and then the nine.

[01:04:54] So each time...

[01:04:56] Well, the three, I just want to make clear, the three were created after the seven and the nine, correct?

[01:05:00] The three were created after, yes, because they were, the seven and the nine were part of the essays in the craft, which was, you know, a group of, you know, however many...

[01:05:10] It would have been like Murdania's crew creating the seven and the nine absent Celebrimbor.

[01:05:15] And then Celebrimbor later, he's like, well, Sauron made all these rings.

[01:05:19] I'm curious about rings.

[01:05:20] I don't want Sauron involved.

[01:05:21] Don't fully trust him.

[01:05:23] So I'm going to make these three in secret.

[01:05:25] And that enraids Sauron that he couldn't touch or correct the three, right?

[01:05:29] Right.

[01:05:29] But he still could dominate them.

[01:05:31] Yeah.

[01:05:32] And that's the special sauce that Sauron adds to it that Celebrimbor would not have been interested in adding because, you know, he did not have a will to dominate.

[01:05:40] He had a will to excel, certainly.

[01:05:43] But I don't think domination was ever part of his game.

[01:05:49] So we do see Sauron contributing to the making of these rings in a way that Celebrimbor wouldn't.

[01:05:58] This is in the series.

[01:05:59] And of course, the particular case in point is the blood which was disguised to look like Mithril.

[01:06:06] And you got to ask, well, if there was absolutely no Mithril in the nine rings, how did they get made with this same process?

[01:06:14] Because, you know, Mithril was essential in the creating of the three rings.

[01:06:17] I mean, they made that fairly clear.

[01:06:20] Hmm.

[01:06:21] Good point.

[01:06:21] And it was essential to the making of the dwarven rings.

[01:06:24] So did Sauron learn something that made him say, okay, now I can use my blood instead of Mithril?

[01:06:32] I mean, they're really kind of vague about the whole, you know, power, not of flesh, but over flesh piece.

[01:06:39] Yeah.

[01:06:39] I mean, I'm kind of like, they're magic rings.

[01:06:43] I'm okay with them not fully explaining that.

[01:06:45] Yeah.

[01:06:45] No, you kind of have to come to that place.

[01:06:47] And Tolkien's magic is fuzzy all around.

[01:06:50] And that's fine.

[01:06:51] Well, it is not what most people think of when they think of magic.

[01:06:54] Right.

[01:06:55] Right.

[01:06:55] It is about craft taken to a level that mortals don't have time to achieve.

[01:07:01] I guess fuzzy relative to how we understand a lot of magic in modern media, Dungeons and Dragons.

[01:07:08] We have books on magic.

[01:07:09] Right.

[01:07:10] Harry Potter, we have old schools where kids go to learn, you know, magic.

[01:07:14] Well, but Harry Potter is still a soft magic system, right?

[01:07:18] So this is a concept that arose in the 21st century.

[01:07:23] This is something new, is soft and hard magic systems.

[01:07:26] And it's actually, I don't remember who did.

[01:07:28] I think Brandon Sanderson might have actually been the one to like really coin this distinction.

[01:07:33] And it comes from hard and soft sci-fi.

[01:07:36] Because that was already a distinction in there.

[01:07:37] Hard sci-fi is where the science is like correct.

[01:07:42] You know, like everything is only science.

[01:07:44] The expanse is hard sci-fi.

[01:07:46] Kind of.

[01:07:47] Yeah.

[01:07:49] Because there's alien magic eventually.

[01:07:51] Well, eventually, but that's in the books.

[01:07:54] It's harder sci-fi than most.

[01:07:56] But I'm saying like, but if you like, say you go on screen, when they're showing the Rocinante firing its point defense guns, you can see on the backside of the gun, there's a little thruster that fires it to create the oppositional force of the bullet leaving the front of the gun.

[01:08:16] And that's hard sci-fi.

[01:08:18] As opposed to Star Trek Enterprise.

[01:08:21] Okay.

[01:08:21] Or Star Wars, right?

[01:08:23] Swing around.

[01:08:23] Oh, yeah.

[01:08:24] Light.

[01:08:24] Light does not work like that for a lightsaber to be able to operate, right?

[01:08:28] Right.

[01:08:28] And you can't hear explosions in space either.

[01:08:31] But yeah.

[01:08:32] I totally agree with you, David.

[01:08:33] Those are great examples.

[01:08:34] And in the end, sci-fi and fantasy don't have quite hard ends.

[01:08:41] Like they do overlap and they are kind of part of the same spectrum.

[01:08:45] But so I think Brandon Sanderson coined the whole hard and soft sci-fi terms.

[01:08:51] And if you have something different, listener, please feel free to write in.

[01:08:55] But I think that the clearest example of hard fantasy I can think of is the wheel of time.

[01:09:02] Because that is, these are the limits of the one power.

[01:09:06] These are the things you can do with it.

[01:09:08] Here's how we build on it in this.

[01:09:10] And there are very clearly defined limits to it.

[01:09:12] So I think that that's the best example I can think of with that.

[01:09:18] Whereas something like Tolkien is very like, the magic will happen when it needs to and within the parameters that I have in my mind at the moment.

[01:09:27] The thing is, Tolkien was dealing with medieval magic systems and they were far more scientific in many respects because they're based in alchemy, which was the origin of chemistry.

[01:09:39] Mm-hmm.

[01:09:40] Right.

[01:09:40] And there were specific steps and processes and so forth.

[01:09:44] What was needed was the knowledge of the process, not an innate power or ability.

[01:09:51] Right.

[01:09:52] And I think things like Harry Potter rely far more on the innate power and ability.

[01:09:56] You know, anybody can wave a wand and say, expecto patronum, but it only works if you are a wizard.

[01:10:03] Yeah.

[01:10:03] And we never really get that defined.

[01:10:05] And I think that's fairly soft magic.

[01:10:07] Whereas Tolkien tries to explain that it isn't magic so much as it is this ability to have so much time that you can perfect your craft, your art.

[01:10:20] He was thinking in terms of artists who lived without limits of time and how much could they achieve, how much could they proceed in their art to accomplish these amazing things that to mortals who had a very limited time space appeared to be magic.

[01:10:41] Mm-hmm.

[01:11:12] And she says, well, I'm not sure what you mean by that because you use the same word for the deceits of the enemy.

[01:11:18] Mm-hmm.

[01:11:19] And so, then we get into the whole difference between Goetia and Magia, which I know I've talked about in some podcast episodes or other.

[01:11:26] Did you ever, Marilyn, in your teaching work, ever do a reverse study of magic?

[01:11:33] Okay.

[01:12:04] Mm-hmm.

[01:12:05] So, that what you have nowadays in many, if not most systems is the concept of projecting energy through a symbol.

[01:12:14] Mm-hmm.

[01:12:15] That's the most basic definition of actual magic as it is practiced by Wiccans and pagans and things like that.

[01:12:24] But I'm thinking more of the, you know, what does the way that we write about magic now, like if you just grabbed a, you know, somebody who's writing science fantasy, you know, or a fantasy book, they have a magic system.

[01:12:37] What does that tell us about our values now versus, say, Tolkien's values, his cultural values, his innate cultural values, and how he's depicting magic at that time?

[01:12:47] Well, in terms of literature, for the most part, unless you were very clearly a Christian alchemist, any kind of bizarre or magical behavior was very sus and probably came from the devil.

[01:13:01] I mean, where else?

[01:13:03] So, there's that whole taint upon it for a long period of time, and that may be part of why Tolkien was so keen on making it clear that this was not the case.

[01:13:13] Yeah.

[01:13:13] Which didn't mean that, you know, the devil figures, you know, Morgoth and Sauron, weren't doing a lot of these evil things through their own power, their personal power.

[01:13:24] We would hear them talking about pouring their personal power into an object and so on.

[01:13:29] So, that was something I think that he was concerned with, not implying that Celebrimbor is just another Faust who sells his soul to the devil so that he can learn what he needs to learn to make beautiful things.

[01:13:40] Right.

[01:13:41] It'd be very easy to read him that way if you weren't already steeped in understanding that this is not how Tolkien conceived of magic and its use.

[01:13:51] I'm with you, Mare.

[01:13:52] I hope that helps.

[01:13:53] I hope that helps.

[01:13:54] Thank you, Vanessa.

[01:13:56] Yeah.

[01:13:56] That was a good conversation on that one.

[01:13:59] All right.

[01:13:59] Let's move on to Sauron Distracted by Karen R.

[01:14:05] One of the things I loved most about the extraordinary consequences, sorry, the extraordinary sequences with Sauron and Celebrimbor is that Celebrimbor discovers the time loop because Sauron's attention slips when he has too much on his plate.

[01:14:19] And specifically, when there is an army outside his gates, which is literally how the ring is able to be destroyed in the end.

[01:14:25] Frodo and Sam and Gollum make it to Mount Doom because Aragorn and Gandalf and the others are able to keep his attention focused elsewhere.

[01:14:33] As Gandalf says in the last debate,

[01:14:35] His doubt will be growing even as we speak here.

[01:14:40] His eye is now straining towards us, blind almost to all else that is moving, so we must keep it.

[01:14:46] Therein lies our hope.

[01:14:48] And Gandalf goes on in words that resonate for the elven forces in episode seven.

[01:14:54] We must walk open-eyed into that trap with courage but small hope for ourselves.

[01:15:03] Bjorknoth, anyone?

[01:15:05] Did I say that right?

[01:15:06] Pretty close, pretty close.

[01:15:09] So props to the writers and showrunners for signaling Sauron's distractibility in the very episode that Celebrimbor is unable to unmake the rings when he tries losing a finger in the process, I might add.

[01:15:22] That kiss is not the most interesting thing about that kiss.

[01:15:27] Actually, why don't we talk about that first?

[01:15:29] Let's talk about the distracted Sauron.

[01:15:32] What do you think?

[01:15:33] I think this is brilliant.

[01:15:34] I never would have thought of it.

[01:15:37] So props to you, Karen.

[01:15:39] This is a wonderful observation.

[01:15:41] And then I hadn't got that resonance.

[01:15:44] And I like how you brought in Brithnoff and the indomitable courage from our broadcast on the same topic.

[01:15:54] Yeah, it's also...

[01:15:58] It's also...

[01:15:58] I want to talk about Sauron not conceiving of people sacrificing things, right?

[01:16:06] So the whole reason that Frodo is able to get to Mount Doom is because Sauron assumed that Aragorn or somebody with him would be wearing the ring so that they could be powerful, right?

[01:16:17] It assumed that everybody just wants power like him.

[01:16:20] And when Frodo goes to destroy the ring, he couldn't even conceive of somebody wanting to do that.

[01:16:26] Right, right.

[01:16:27] And similarly here, I don't think he conceived that Celebrimbor would be able to... would be willing to give up a part of himself so essential, his ability to craft rings.

[01:16:36] Mm-hmm.

[01:16:37] To craft anything, right?

[01:16:38] Right.

[01:16:39] Like, this is part of his dexterity.

[01:16:40] This is his opposable thumb.

[01:16:41] Right.

[01:16:43] To serve the greater good.

[01:16:45] I don't think he ever fathomed that Celebrimbor would do that.

[01:16:47] And that's how the nine rings get away.

[01:16:50] Now, he does get them back.

[01:16:51] But you know what I mean?

[01:16:52] Yeah.

[01:16:53] I think we see patterns there too.

[01:16:56] Mm-hmm.

[01:16:57] Mm-hmm.

[01:16:57] And this goes into the larger...

[01:17:01] And I'm not using this word in a negative way, but the larger trope of the bad guys in big stories is they're fallible, right?

[01:17:10] Yeah.

[01:17:10] For as dangerous and potent as they are, you know, there's an exhaust port in a giant space station.

[01:17:18] You know, a...

[01:17:19] How did they defeat the Harry Potter bad guy?

[01:17:23] I'm sure he had some sort of weakness somewhere.

[01:17:24] Oh, but I could...

[01:17:26] Yeah, he had Horcruxes.

[01:17:27] That was the whole thing.

[01:17:27] Right.

[01:17:29] I think of Tolkien as like the reverse Macbeth, right?

[01:17:33] Which is...

[01:17:34] Macbeth is the whole thing of, oh, well, the king was so good he couldn't see evil.

[01:17:38] Tolkien is very like evil so evil it can't see good.

[01:17:42] Mm-hmm.

[01:17:42] It's the reverse Macbeth.

[01:17:43] Nice.

[01:17:44] Nice.

[01:17:45] As well, evil forces will always be at odds and in friction with each other, whereas the good forces can actually ally and support each other to...

[01:17:55] Because if it weren't for the forces, you know, showing up at the Black Gates to distract Sauron, for Sam and Frodo to, you know, hook around the backside.

[01:18:06] Mm-hmm.

[01:18:06] So...

[01:18:07] Mm-hmm.

[01:18:11] Evil contains the seeds of its own destruction.

[01:18:14] And unwillingly aids the good.

[01:18:16] Unknowingly aids the good.

[01:18:17] Right.

[01:18:18] And that comes up all the time, you know, Theran has a saying of oft evil will shall evil mar.

[01:18:27] Hmm.

[01:18:28] Mm-hmm.

[01:18:28] So, it comes up in a number of different cultures throughout Middle Earth.

[01:18:32] But the thing about the good side is the good...

[01:18:34] You gotta do the work.

[01:18:36] Right?

[01:18:36] Absolutely.

[01:18:37] Yeah.

[01:18:37] You can't just go, oh, we're good, so it's all, you know, it'll be fine, you know?

[01:18:41] And you also sometimes have to do the sacrifice.

[01:18:43] Exactly.

[01:18:44] Right, exactly.

[01:18:45] It's really interesting, because I might get hate for this, but it's actually one of the philosophies I deeply disagree with Tolkien about, is that the good people are better at getting together and doing the work than the bad people.

[01:18:59] I actually think it's often the opposite in the real world.

[01:19:02] Oh, sure.

[01:19:03] And I don't think that's reflected in Tolkien's work, and maybe Tolkien's work is aspirational, and that's great.

[01:19:10] I think it's reflected in the person of Gandalf.

[01:19:13] Hmm.

[01:19:14] And him wearing the Ring of Fire, because his whole mission was to unite all the peoples of Middle Earth, bring them together to contest with Saoadon.

[01:19:26] A real yes-we-can kind of guy.

[01:19:30] Well, whatever.

[01:19:32] I'm just kidding.

[01:19:32] I'm just kidding.

[01:19:33] I know, I know.

[01:19:33] But I think that is Tolkien saying, look, I know this isn't going to be easy, because I've posited a world unlike ours, in which everybody's off in their own corners, and nobody really wants to be the first one to start flipping the bird itself.

[01:19:49] Sure.

[01:19:50] And the thing that's intentional in this world, you know, is that we can come together and defeat those who seek to dominate.

[01:19:55] That's why it's a fairy story.

[01:19:57] Mm-hmm.

[01:19:58] And he's wanting to represent the very best, and to give our people and our world hope.

[01:20:04] As well as to escape to a place where, you know, this kind of thing can happen.

[01:20:10] And yes, sometimes you have Saruman's in your midst, but you also have Theodon's.

[01:20:15] But then the warnings of, like, a Saruman or a Grima or somebody like that is a warning.

[01:20:21] It's a helpful way for you to be able to identify the outlines and the shapes of those people and those forces and those patterns.

[01:20:29] Mm-hmm.

[01:20:30] So, you actually are learning to identify those things in the real world.

[01:20:36] Eomer, when he first meets Aragorn and Gimli and Legolas, how is a man to judge between good and evil in these times?

[01:20:43] And Aragorn's response is, as he ever has, good and evil have not changed with the passing of a few years.

[01:20:50] Yeah.

[01:20:51] It's just interesting to me that I think so much of fantasy literature post-Tolkien has obviously been greatly influenced by Tolkien, but in some ways has been a response to Tolkien, right?

[01:21:01] I think the Grimdark genre is really a response to Tolkien.

[01:21:05] Oh, sure.

[01:21:05] Even outside of the Grimdark genre.

[01:21:07] I would say the Wheel of Time, you know, everybody likes to make fun of the fact that the first Wheel of Time book is just kind of a retelling of the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

[01:21:16] Basically.

[01:21:17] But as you go on, Jordan really challenges those kinds of ideas.

[01:21:21] He has a whole, I can't spoil it because we're going to cover the rest of it, but he has a whole thing of how hard it is to get the people wanting the same thing to do the right thing together and not work actively against each other and not act cruelly in the name of good.

[01:21:39] Of course.

[01:21:40] Yep.

[01:21:41] Yep.

[01:21:41] So.

[01:21:41] Now I'm thinking of Denethor.

[01:21:43] And.

[01:21:44] Yeah.

[01:21:45] Yeah.

[01:21:45] You know, it's, it's there, it's there.

[01:21:48] Yeah.

[01:21:48] And I think to some degree we think it isn't because everybody's saying, oh, you know, Tolkien is so black and white and, you know.

[01:21:54] Well, I don't, I don't think that.

[01:21:55] And I know you don't think that.

[01:21:57] I know you don't think that.

[01:21:58] But if other people are saying it often enough, it becomes.

[01:22:02] Yeah.

[01:22:02] More difficult to remember.

[01:22:03] Actually, that's not true.

[01:22:05] I have to, on the fairy story thing and, you know, the restoration thing was just.

[01:22:10] And what that we get from that, I just think about in the Jackson films when Eowyn kills the witch king.

[01:22:19] And that, you know, and I am no man, like how much that energizes me.

[01:22:25] Yes.

[01:22:25] How much that fortifies me when I think about that scene or when I see it.

[01:22:31] Mm-hmm.

[01:22:31] That is a fairy story element, right?

[01:22:34] That it brings you something in your real life.

[01:22:38] It's an entirely made up fantasy, whatever.

[01:22:42] No, you know, but yet I can take so much energy from it.

[01:22:46] And just, it makes me feel, it gives me emotional, it activates emotions that then I can translate into real action in my life.

[01:22:59] It is a small eucatastrophe in the middle of a large.

[01:23:03] Mm-hmm.

[01:23:04] And the witch king goes, God damn it.

[01:23:06] I didn't read the fine print on this.

[01:23:08] Prophecy.

[01:23:12] All right, let's move on to the rest of this email.

[01:23:14] That kiss is not the most interesting thing about that kiss.

[01:23:18] I think the most interesting thing about that scene is not the kiss itself, but Adar's reaction to it.

[01:23:24] Take a look at Sam Hazeldyne's body language just after Elrond walks away from Galadriel and is out of the shelter.

[01:23:30] I am of several minds about whether Elrond intended to provoke that reaction in Adar.

[01:23:36] But I have no doubt that we were meant to clock the reaction.

[01:23:39] I'd be interested to hear what you think about it.

[01:23:41] I'll be honest and say I have no idea what the reaction was.

[01:23:44] Yeah, I'm not remembering either.

[01:23:45] And I haven't had time to go back and look.

[01:23:47] Wish I could go back and look.

[01:23:49] Boy.

[01:23:49] Anybody?

[01:23:50] Oh, guys.

[01:23:51] Sorry.

[01:23:52] Sorry, Karen.

[01:23:54] I'm going to dig it up real quick.

[01:23:57] Well, if you guys want to keep going on, I'll take a quick look.

[01:24:00] Okay.

[01:24:00] All right.

[01:24:00] Thanks, David.

[01:24:01] Let's move on to Martin.

[01:24:03] Hi, guys.

[01:24:03] Thanks so much for the Rings of Power podcast.

[01:24:06] Thank you, Martin.

[01:24:07] Thank you.

[01:24:07] One bit of feedback on the season, sorry, episode eight review.

[01:24:11] There was a discussion about what it was that led Farazone to connect his vision of Saram Halbran in the Palantir with Muriel apart from opportunism.

[01:24:20] I figured it was because Farazone knew that Muriel had previously looked into the Palantir and assumed that Muriel would have seen the same vision, i.e. Sauron.

[01:24:30] He had no reason to think that each person who looked into it would see a different vision.

[01:24:35] Okay.

[01:24:36] All right.

[01:24:37] Interesting idea, Martin.

[01:24:38] I'm in on that.

[01:24:38] That could work.

[01:24:40] Separately, I'm wondering if you guys have thoughts about how Sauron will be depicted ongoing.

[01:24:45] One of the most powerful aspects in the depiction of Sauron in the books and to a lesser extent in the movies is that he is off screen.

[01:24:54] He is like a disembodied evil presence.

[01:24:57] I understand that he isn't actually disembodied.

[01:24:59] And then in the third age, he is not actually a big fiery eyeball.

[01:25:03] No, he is not.

[01:25:05] The fact that he is not depicted as engaging in day-to-day interactions with his generals or even the wraiths, for example, makes Sauron seem profoundly powerful and fearsome.

[01:25:18] How do you think Rings of Power will handle this?

[01:25:21] Do you think we won't see much of his physical form of Charlie Vickers in the final season?

[01:25:25] Or at least after...

[01:25:28] All right.

[01:25:29] Keep your secrets.

[01:25:30] ...an event?

[01:25:31] Yeah.

[01:25:32] I mean, for me, I just think that is because he suffered a defeat prior to The Lord of the Rings, right?

[01:25:41] That's why he's off screen.

[01:25:44] He's supposed to be more cautious at this point.

[01:25:47] And also, it had an effect on him, that defeat, which basically constrains him in certain ways.

[01:25:55] I don't want to be too spoilery.

[01:25:57] Yeah.

[01:25:58] There's reasons why Sauron's appearance may change later, and we just can't talk about it at this point.

[01:26:05] So I do think we eventually will not see Charlie Vickers in the role anymore, but I don't know when.

[01:26:10] Yeah, it'll be interesting to see when and how they make those kinds of choices.

[01:26:14] Yeah.

[01:26:15] Because he's such an asset.

[01:26:16] You hate to lose him.

[01:26:18] And yet, I'm of the Alfred Hitchcock belief that it's the evil that you don't see that's far more terrifying than the evil you do see.

[01:26:28] I'm with you.

[01:26:29] Yeah.

[01:26:29] I think that's what makes Sauron a powerful villain, right?

[01:26:32] And even the ripoff of Voldemort in the Harry Potter series, right?

[01:26:38] You don't see him that much for the first few books.

[01:26:40] And then J.K.

[01:26:41] Rowling's like, well, here you go.

[01:26:42] Yeah.

[01:26:43] Yeah.

[01:26:43] And the Wheel of Time, like very light depictions of the Dark One.

[01:26:50] Mm-hmm.

[01:26:51] Mm-hmm.

[01:26:53] Well, Abdul in Altrincham, a place that I don't know how to pronounce.

[01:27:01] It's outside of Manchester.

[01:27:02] I looked it up.

[01:27:03] Oh, it's in Manchester.

[01:27:04] A Mancurian?

[01:27:05] I believe so.

[01:27:06] A Mancunian?

[01:27:12] I believe so.

[01:27:32] To milk the...

[01:27:34] Yeah.

[01:27:35] People were saying, and I agree with this, like, I would love to see Ted Lasso back in America or the team in England doing its own thing.

[01:27:44] And we talked about seeing the Women's League getting started up.

[01:27:48] Yeah.

[01:27:48] That'd be great.

[01:27:49] Cameos from the original team would be fun, you know?

[01:27:53] All right.

[01:27:54] Abdul says, hello.

[01:27:56] I've really enjoyed your coverage of season two of Rings of Power.

[01:27:59] Your initial comments on episode eight, Mirror Mine.

[01:28:01] Too much Jackson member berries, but overall a good effort.

[01:28:05] My question, mainly to Marilyn, are there any other literary properties that have so many gatekeepers over the lore?

[01:28:13] As a fantasy and sci-fi fan, I have experienced my share of dodgy adaptations, so now avoid the obvious poor ones looking at you, Earthsea, and the dark is rising.

[01:28:25] Amen.

[01:28:26] I didn't read or watch Harry Potter because I didn't want to be that guy who's read a better version slash seen it all before.

[01:28:34] Greek, Norse, Roman mythology, Shakespeare, Brothers Grimm, all that, all get adapted, but without the toxic discourse.

[01:28:41] Why does Tolkien attract this?

[01:28:44] What do you think, Marilyn?

[01:28:46] Well, my first response is the extent of the exposure to the literary piece in question.

[01:28:57] I don't think anybody knows as much Greek, Norse, Roman mythology as knows Lord of the Rings.

[01:29:08] Because of the media and because of the film adaptations, because it's been around for this length of time.

[01:29:16] I mean, I'm sure you could get people together who would, you know, go on at great length about Ulysses by James Joyce and have extremely pointed discussions and strongly held beliefs and so on and so on and so on.

[01:29:31] But nobody knows about it because it's a very, very small universe that we're talking about.

[01:29:35] Whereas Tolkien has now come into literary and visual and other representations on a scale that has so many people involved.

[01:29:49] That because it is such a moving and well-written piece, it connects with people on an individual and personal level and they start to see it through their own lenses.

[01:30:01] And you get enough people with enough lenses seeing it in different perspectives, you're going to start having conversations.

[01:30:07] Now, let's just set aside the haters who are using it deliberately to stir up as much ill intent and kerfuffle as they can.

[01:30:15] Because that's a completely different group, I think.

[01:30:20] There are some people who genuinely hold to the Christian aspect of things and can get very fervent about it.

[01:30:27] And there are people who hold to the pagan aspects of it and can be very firm about it.

[01:30:34] So, maybe it's in part because it draws from Greek Norse Roman mythology.

[01:30:40] Not so much Shakespeare, but some.

[01:30:42] Brothers Grimm, absolutely.

[01:30:43] He's adopting all of these things.

[01:30:45] And so, there are so many more aspects, different aspects to draw in different people and different perspectives.

[01:30:54] And so, one person reads it through this lens and says, this is what Tolkien is all about.

[01:31:00] And another person reads it through a completely different lens and says, this is what Tolkien is all about.

[01:31:04] When we have a piece of literature we love, we want it to support our own views.

[01:31:09] We want it to be a reflection of what we believe and think and so on.

[01:31:13] And when you start getting that kind of a connection with it, then yeah, the fur is going to fly.

[01:31:18] Because now it's personal, so to speak.

[01:31:21] And I think there's a group of people out there who identify themselves as Western chauvinists in some way.

[01:31:31] Oh, sure.

[01:31:31] That's another lens.

[01:31:32] Right.

[01:31:32] But what I'm saying is that then, well, what are we going to do?

[01:31:37] We're going to reach back into Western canon and then we're going to do like you say is we're going to take text, adopt it to fit our lens.

[01:31:45] Mm-hmm.

[01:31:46] Our point of view, our imperatives.

[01:31:48] Mm-hmm.

[01:31:49] And it doesn't matter what the original intent is, we're just going to.

[01:31:52] Right.

[01:31:53] Right.

[01:31:54] And there's also the very common religious practice with it called proof texting.

[01:31:59] Mm-hmm.

[01:31:59] You know, you look through the Bible and you can find scripture to support a whole lot of very contrary views.

[01:32:06] Mm-hmm.

[01:32:06] Many a Twitter argument is back and forth about if you only knew what the Bible said.

[01:32:13] And, you know, you can do a lot of proof texting with Tolkien, particularly since we know so much of his text.

[01:32:20] Not just the published ones, but, you know, going all the way back to 1916 and all the way through after he died.

[01:32:26] Right.

[01:32:28] Not many authors have that kind of an exposure.

[01:32:31] Can I bring you through my three-tiered approach to why people get so upset about Tolkien?

[01:32:37] Go for it.

[01:32:39] I was just thinking about this recently, actually, when I saw this email.

[01:32:44] And I think there's three big reasons.

[01:32:47] One is, simple reason is there were rights issues where Tolkien sold the rights and was very sour about it later.

[01:32:54] Uh-huh.

[01:32:55] And I think people get very sensitive about adaptation because they feel like Tolkien wouldn't have wanted it adapted at all.

[01:33:01] Yeah, there is that piece, isn't there?

[01:33:03] Which I don't know if that's wholly true.

[01:33:04] He did write about, oh, you know, I could see it being adapted in this way or that way in some of his letters.

[01:33:10] Mm-hmm.

[01:33:10] I think he was, though, soured about the way that he sold them for basically pennies of what they were worth, right?

[01:33:16] Yep.

[01:33:16] Sure.

[01:33:17] And so that's going to inspire some sour feelings about people who feel like he was kind of done dirty.

[01:33:22] Mm-hmm.

[01:33:23] Then you have Christopher, who preserved all these things and shepherded it and made very clear his dad didn't want things adapted this way.

[01:33:34] Mm-hmm.

[01:34:01] And then you can get very sensitive.

[01:34:03] Mm-hmm.

[01:34:03] And I completely understand that.

[01:34:04] And I think that's justified to feel however you feel about it.

[01:34:08] Yeah.

[01:34:09] Um, and then the other thing is just he's a contemporary.

[01:34:13] I'm sure you could find people in Shakespeare's time going, well, that performance wasn't at all what he intended.

[01:34:21] I was drinking with Will the other day.

[01:34:25] And boy, did he have a lot to say about how they performed on Thursday night.

[01:34:31] And he's going to have some words with them.

[01:34:33] I'm sure you had stuff like that and, you know, reviews in the newspaper where people get very upset about certain performances.

[01:34:39] But we don't have a lot of those opinions, right?

[01:34:43] Because we're not there.

[01:34:45] And we are here where Tolkien died within the last 50 years.

[01:34:53] Mm-hmm.

[01:35:21] And we're going to have a lot of people with him.

[01:35:21] We're going to have a lot of people who can have an opinion and express it.

[01:35:24] Let us also say that there's been plenty of toxic discourse in certainly in academic communities, scholarly communities about interpretations of Shakespeare.

[01:35:33] I'm sure.

[01:35:34] You know, just on and on and on.

[01:35:35] But again, that's a certain subset. They communicate very well with themselves, but they're not necessarily out on the wider internets because it has not achieved the same kind of, I'll call it pop culture status, that Tolkien has.

[01:35:51] Yeah, you know, those kinds of discussions are reserved for people who know what Barovian means.

[01:35:57] David, did you have any thoughts on this before we move on?

[01:36:02] Not additionally, well, I would just chime in on the conversations that academics, boy, the academics burn themselves down.

[01:36:09] But like you said, Marilyn, those are contained conversations within their talk spaces where in this, you know, we have all of these people out there reading and have been reading since they were children at various stages.

[01:36:26] When I first read Lord of the Rings, I didn't have social media to go to or to have other people reinforce my thoughts or values.

[01:36:34] You know, wouldn't play Dungeons and Dragons to be able to do that.

[01:36:38] So, I think it's that we have this interesting cross-currents of real-time communication where anybody can share their opinion at any time.

[01:36:50] And then those people of like-minded value can start to cluster around it.

[01:36:55] Mm-hmm.

[01:36:57] And I can think of three Tolkien scholars who I know and have communicated with.

[01:37:05] One of them supports the notion of adaptation.

[01:37:11] One of them calls it plagiarism.

[01:37:15] And one of them has refused to ever see any kind of visual representation of Tolkien because they say the text was their first introduction and the text is all they want.

[01:37:28] And they really don't want to see anybody else's visualization because they have their own.

[01:37:32] Fair enough.

[01:37:33] So, there you go.

[01:37:33] Right.

[01:37:35] Speaking of visualizations.

[01:37:37] Yes.

[01:37:37] I did rewatch the scene.

[01:37:39] Oh, yes.

[01:37:40] What do you think?

[01:37:40] Of the kiss.

[01:37:41] Yes.

[01:37:41] I will say this.

[01:37:43] The acting that Armao and Clark, right?

[01:37:48] Is it Clark?

[01:37:49] No.

[01:37:49] Morfid.

[01:37:50] Morfid.

[01:37:50] Yeah, Morfid Clark.

[01:37:51] Yeah, thank you.

[01:37:52] Because there's another Clark in House of the Dragons.

[01:37:54] I was like, whoa.

[01:37:55] Okay.

[01:37:55] Wait a minute.

[01:37:55] My brain train wrecked.

[01:37:58] The acting.

[01:38:00] Oh, so good.

[01:38:01] Yeah.

[01:38:02] The looks that pass between them when he's about to, when he's like, what am I doing here?

[01:38:08] I got to figure this out.

[01:38:09] And then the kiss.

[01:38:10] And then after the kiss, stellar.

[01:38:12] The way that Adar reacts and walks away, I don't think Elrond was trying to provoke anything.

[01:38:18] I think he was trying to get away with something, which was to be able to palm the key.

[01:38:24] And his whole, because he knows that they're going to have to go and fight.

[01:38:30] And that means a lot of people are going to die.

[01:38:32] Mm-hmm.

[01:38:32] And he knows that he's got to get Galadriel free for a number of reasons.

[01:38:39] For tactical reasons, to have, you know, an enemy in the ranks of the orcs on the backside of somebody as potent as Galadriel.

[01:38:45] Mm-hmm.

[01:38:45] As well as, this is one of my dearest friends in all of creation.

[01:38:50] I have to—

[01:38:50] And I've treated her pretty rottenly for the last couple of weeks.

[01:38:55] And she's prisoner, and I'm here under a banner of truce or, you know, of treat, you know, trying to negotiate here.

[01:39:04] And I have this one chance to possibly save her life.

[01:39:09] And I think that's all it is.

[01:39:11] And I think Adar is—it's hard to—it's really hard to gauge what Adar is thinking.

[01:39:16] He's a little bit like, huh, that was weird.

[01:39:20] And he's just sort of ponders for a second and cocks his head as Elrond leaves.

[01:39:26] So that's what I take away from it on multiple watches here.

[01:39:32] Well, Karen, you should write and tell us what you take away from it.

[01:39:35] Yeah.

[01:39:35] Because I don't think any of us had had any particular reaction, and we would love to know what yours was.

[01:39:40] I don't think it'll ever get on a podcast.

[01:39:42] Or maybe we could start off season three with it.

[01:39:44] Who knows?

[01:39:45] Discord.

[01:39:46] Pop on the Discord.

[01:39:46] Yeah.

[01:39:47] Yes, definitely put it on the Discord, and we can continue with that discussion there.

[01:39:51] We actually have a live contribution from Adar here.

[01:39:55] It was only a kiss.

[01:40:00] Harkening back to our game.

[01:40:02] Thank you, Mark.

[01:40:03] Thank you, Mark.

[01:40:04] Yeah.

[01:40:04] There you go.

[01:40:06] All right.

[01:40:08] All right.

[01:40:09] Last thing for this section, we have a voicemail from Nikki.

[01:40:14] Hello, David, John, and Marilyn.

[01:40:16] My name is Nikki, and I'm calling from Toronto, Canada.

[01:40:18] I just wanted to say that I'm a huge fan of the show.

[01:40:20] I think you guys do a great job.

[01:40:22] Thank you, Nikki.

[01:40:22] I've really been enjoying listening to the show the day after the episodes from season two dropped.

[01:40:29] I usually watch the show Thursday morning, and then I listen to your show Thursday afternoon,

[01:40:35] and then I go back and watch the show again on Thursday evening.

[01:40:39] And some of the things you pick up that I don't pick up, it's great to have listened to your point of view

[01:40:45] and then re-watch the show, thinking about that and keeping your points in mind.

[01:40:50] There's a couple of things from your last episode, on episode eight, that I wanted to just throw out there,

[01:40:59] see if this makes any sense to you.

[01:41:02] I was thinking in particular about the scene with Adar as he's kneeling down, face against the rock,

[01:41:12] when Galadriel first escapes Reguion with the women and children.

[01:41:17] And you guys mentioned that, I guess some theories were that he might be praying or something like that.

[01:41:24] How it struck me was that he was instead trying to hide his face in fair form from his children.

[01:41:34] So I thought he was maybe just put on the ring or had put it on before and realized what happened,

[01:41:40] but has not shown it to his children.

[01:41:43] And so that was more for his sake, not knowing how they would react to that

[01:41:51] and whether they would turn on him and not trust him if he was now an elf again.

[01:41:55] So he wanted to save that to show it to Galadriel first and then propose giving back the ring to her

[01:42:04] and teaming up with her and not knowing how they would react to that.

[01:42:08] So that's how I interpreted that scene.

[01:42:11] And then there was one other scene between Galadriel and Sauron.

[01:42:18] And I know there was lots of discussion around why did they drag out the scene?

[01:42:22] What was the point of it?

[01:42:23] Did we really need it?

[01:42:25] And that maybe it was for her sake of being able to say, yes, you know, I was able to resist and say no.

[01:42:33] Now, I thought, yes, that is definitely how I interpreted that part for her.

[01:42:39] But I also want you to maybe consider that for Sauron, that he wasn't ready to say no to her either.

[01:42:48] And that this long drawn out battle was his attempt to give her another chance to come over to the dark side and join him.

[01:42:56] I mean, I don't feel like he wanted to kill her.

[01:43:00] And in the end, he didn't kill her, right?

[01:43:02] And it's obviously he's a Meyer.

[01:43:05] It seems like he could have killed her if he wanted to.

[01:43:08] And that he was just playing with her.

[01:43:10] So I think that he dragged the scene out hoping that, A, she would change her mind or that he would be able to kind of manipulate her into joining him.

[01:43:25] And then using the crown of Morgoth to stab her, perhaps that was a way to speed up her descent into evil and not necessarily to kill her.

[01:43:40] But maybe as a way to ensure that, you know, he's dug his claws into her and there's no going back to good for her.

[01:43:48] So those were just some things that I was like, hmm, maybe this is what's going on here.

[01:43:52] So I didn't feel like that scene was too much or dragged out too long.

[01:43:57] I thought it was just great.

[01:43:58] I thought the whole episode was great.

[01:44:00] I loved the entire season.

[01:44:02] And I can't wait for more, especially more dwarves.

[01:44:07] So awesome.

[01:44:07] Anyways, keep up the great work.

[01:44:09] Can't wait for season three.

[01:44:10] Bye.

[01:44:12] Oh, thanks, Nikki.

[01:44:13] That's great.

[01:44:14] Great voicemail.

[01:44:14] Thank you, Nikki.

[01:44:15] We hope to hear from you again on future episodes of any show that you're watching, that we're watching.

[01:44:21] For sure.

[01:44:22] Yeah.

[01:44:22] I'm calling up the, I called up the scene with Adar on that stone thing.

[01:44:28] It's really interesting because he's on his knees and he's very much both hands up prostrated.

[01:44:34] It's almost a coffin shaped like object.

[01:44:38] I'm not saying that it is, but it is in that sort of long rectangular shape and it's got some runic, you know, sort of designs on it.

[01:44:51] And it's a very weird position for somebody to be in if they are not in some sort of, you know, a moment of reflection or dealing with something that's very heavy or, you know, either praying or just like overtaken with emotion.

[01:45:12] So it's very strange.

[01:45:14] I thought it looked like he was almost in pain.

[01:45:16] Mm-hmm.

[01:45:17] And was having trouble holding himself upright.

[01:45:20] Because the changes that Nanya is affecting on him.

[01:45:23] That's good.

[01:45:24] Healing doesn't always feel better.

[01:45:26] And then once his hand comes out from the side and we see the ring, his hand, his skin, that's the first indication we get is his hand is not scarred and it's not discolored.

[01:45:36] But it's just, it's normal human looking flesh.

[01:45:38] I was just so startled by what happened that I just wasn't in any kind of an analytical frame of mind.

[01:45:47] I was just like, oh my God, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, look, what are they going to do now?

[01:45:52] You know?

[01:45:52] So that whole speculation of he didn't want his children to see him in fair form, really interesting.

[01:45:59] Because now I start spinning off into all these, well, what would have happened and how could this?

[01:46:03] And that's what I was kind of in the middle of, even as part of me said, whoa there, don't get too invested because you know it's not going to work.

[01:46:12] Yeah.

[01:46:12] The whole idea that they could actually have had some kind of truce and reconciliation and that, you know, Sauron is the actual enemy.

[01:46:24] That just, of course, my whole being warmed to this notion and of course it was shot down fairly quickly.

[01:46:30] But it couldn't have gone any other way because Sauron needed his orc army and he was going to get in the way of that.

[01:46:36] So the orc guard does withdraw pretty far back when he turns around.

[01:46:41] And then they do a little, that little trick.

[01:46:43] They don't show his face changing from that form.

[01:46:47] They only show his face changing back to the form.

[01:46:50] He just turns and he's.

[01:46:51] And see that, I completely went over my head.

[01:46:53] I didn't even notice that.

[01:46:54] So that shows how, you know, how impressed I was with the whole thing and definitely not in an animal.

[01:47:01] I forgive you.

[01:47:02] What about you, John?

[01:47:04] Yeah, that line, that line.

[01:47:06] Before, John, I'm going to just preempt you slightly because I just really want to give a shout out before I forget.

[01:47:11] Yeah, go ahead.

[01:47:12] Nikki and everyone else, if you want, go to our blog at thelorehounds.com slash blog.

[01:47:20] And or there's a link there on the main site.

[01:47:22] And Brian8063, who is our editor-in-chief of our blog as well as one of our lore masters and Discord moderator, does a lot of work for the Lorehounds.

[01:47:32] Thank you, Brian.

[01:47:33] Sure does.

[01:47:34] He wrote a really, really interesting article about detente using the lens of the political theory term detente and, you know, relaxed posture between adversaries about using a lens from modern history with American relationships with Russia.

[01:48:02] And how, and using that lens to look at this between the orcs or the Uruks and the elves.

[01:48:09] Really, really cool article.

[01:48:10] So go check it out.

[01:48:12] Yeah.

[01:48:12] John?

[01:48:14] John?

[01:48:15] I kind of disagree with everything everybody was saying.

[01:48:18] Yeah, I think it's more than what could have been with Adar, right?

[01:48:24] And I think had Adar worn the ring for another couple thousand years, he would have been restored to his full self.

[01:48:32] Right.

[01:48:33] And hopefully he...

[01:48:34] I don't disagree with that.

[01:48:34] He goes to the halls of Mandos, and Mandos is like, you know what?

[01:48:38] You tried, Daddy.

[01:48:39] Why don't you get back out there?

[01:48:41] Let's give you a fresh bod.

[01:48:42] But he didn't have a lot of people killed.

[01:48:45] And he did do a lot of...

[01:48:46] Yeah, we'll say to Galadriel.

[01:48:48] ...villainous things.

[01:48:50] Well, seemingly, you know, the orcs were cutting down trees and tearing up the ground and, you know, enslaving people.

[01:48:59] I will say, Galadriel's a little bit of a serial killer for orcs, though.

[01:49:02] She is.

[01:49:03] And she recognized it.

[01:49:04] This is a real I Am Legend moment.

[01:49:06] Right, exactly.

[01:49:07] Exactly.

[01:49:08] She recognized it in this scene and apologized for it.

[01:49:14] Mm-hmm.

[01:49:15] That was almost as astonishing as Adar suddenly being reverted sort of back to elf form.

[01:49:21] That I think that seeing that this was possible for him brought this aha moment for her as well.

[01:49:30] You cannot imagine season one Galadriel apologizing for telling orcs.

[01:49:33] I'm sorry.

[01:49:33] No.

[01:49:33] It's just not going to happen.

[01:49:34] Yeah.

[01:49:35] Yeah.

[01:49:35] Yeah.

[01:49:36] So, it was a healing moment for both of them.

[01:49:40] So...

[01:49:40] And so much could have come from it and didn't.

[01:49:43] What...

[01:49:43] And then what is that going to mean for Galadriel's character in season three?

[01:49:47] Exactly.

[01:49:48] It means she's ready to transform into Cate Blanchett.

[01:49:51] And to start growing her hair out for a certain dwarf.

[01:49:54] I hope that it means that she's going to be led by a randier to the Greenwood and begin her transformation, more or less as John describes.

[01:50:03] And we'll find Caliborn there.

[01:50:05] Oh, with a young girl.

[01:50:07] Yeah.

[01:50:08] He's not...

[01:50:08] He's been seahorsing.

[01:50:10] I'm telling you.

[01:50:11] I can't wait for you and Sarah to go through Rings and Rituals and start unpacking these a little bit more because there's some stuff in here that I think...

[01:50:20] There really is.

[01:50:20] It's very easy because we're trying to get these out and meet the deadline of when the episode airs.

[01:50:30] But when you start to take apart in a very minute scale these scenes...

[01:50:34] Yeah.

[01:50:36] I forgive you.

[01:50:38] I forgive you.

[01:50:39] The look on their faces is extraordinary what's happening here.

[01:50:44] So, they really are doing some deep, deep work.

[01:50:48] Yeah.

[01:50:49] And what Nenya represents now.

[01:50:53] Pretty extraordinary.

[01:50:54] Yeah.

[01:50:56] Well, we've got another six pages of feedback.

[01:50:59] We're two hours in.

[01:51:00] So, David...

[01:51:01] It's our listeners.

[01:51:01] They keep sending in these incredible questions.

[01:51:04] I know.

[01:51:05] It's only a couple of scrolls to the bottom of the page.

[01:51:07] Are we going to do a third feedback episode?

[01:51:09] No, no, no.

[01:51:10] We're going to finish this off.

[01:51:11] Let's go.

[01:51:11] All right.

[01:51:11] Well, hold on.

[01:51:12] Let's take a quick break.

[01:51:13] Sounds good.

[01:51:14] We'll come back and we'll do some more.

[01:51:36] And we're back.

[01:51:37] David, give us some big battle talk.

[01:51:41] Big battles.

[01:51:42] Mark from Chicago.

[01:51:43] Hello, everyone.

[01:51:43] Love season two.

[01:51:44] Thought it was much better and gave us more pure Tolkien than season one.

[01:51:47] This kept me much more engaged.

[01:51:49] Two things bothered me about the battle scenes at Eregion.

[01:51:54] The river is dammed and the orc troops are trampling through the mud and pulling the ravager through.

[01:52:00] This would take a long, long time.

[01:52:02] This river is huge.

[01:52:04] I would suspect the river bottom to be soaked and very hard to traverse.

[01:52:08] The ravager itself would weigh a ton.

[01:52:10] And even though it seems the orcs are laying wood down to pull the ravager through the mud, which is true.

[01:52:16] I did.

[01:52:16] I did clock that as well.

[01:52:17] They were laying track out for it.

[01:52:19] There's no way it would budge.

[01:52:20] They really would need to soil to dry out much more than all the elves prancing through the mud like it was hard ground.

[01:52:27] No way that would work.

[01:52:31] I don't disagree with you, Mark, necessarily.

[01:52:34] But then I'm like hand wavy, you know, moving on.

[01:52:38] Marilyn, you've got something to register.

[01:52:40] I talked about this.

[01:52:41] Yeah.

[01:52:41] And it's just the Battle of Agincourt and said I don't know why I didn't think about it sooner.

[01:52:46] But yeah, it really would not have worked in a real world connection.

[01:52:49] I also want to make a correction.

[01:52:51] I said the Battle of Agincourt was 1405.

[01:52:53] It was actually 1415.

[01:52:55] Oh, my God.

[01:52:56] John.

[01:52:57] Marilyn.

[01:52:58] I'm sorry.

[01:52:59] That's it.

[01:52:59] I'm gone.

[01:53:00] Sorry.

[01:53:00] I will go in disgrace.

[01:53:03] Yeah.

[01:53:03] I just want to say there are many more things that do bother me.

[01:53:07] And battles are something that just go over my head.

[01:53:10] Like military logistics.

[01:53:12] That's something because I don't know a lot about it.

[01:53:15] It usually washes over me unless something's completely ridiculous.

[01:53:19] Yeah.

[01:53:19] But this is plain old material physics.

[01:53:21] Yeah.

[01:53:23] Her elastic flow.

[01:53:26] Yes.

[01:53:27] Yes.

[01:53:28] Indeed.

[01:53:28] In this case with mud.

[01:53:29] Or having several legions of orc armies in the forest next door to you and nobody knows about them.

[01:53:35] Anyway.

[01:53:36] Right.

[01:53:36] Right.

[01:53:37] They sent a greeting letter.

[01:53:40] Mark continues.

[01:53:41] Merdanya is a jeweler ringmaker and yet she's on the ledge of the outer walls like some sort of soldier calling out, they have a ravenger.

[01:53:49] Hold on.

[01:53:50] Hold on.

[01:53:50] Hold on.

[01:53:50] I want to say, I'm going to defend that.

[01:53:52] All the Noldor will be practiced in battle because of all the nonsense in the first age.

[01:53:57] That's my point.

[01:53:57] Because Noldor.

[01:53:58] Yeah.

[01:53:59] Well, he continues, how the hell would she know what a ravager is when she's next to the archers and in the thick of it?

[01:54:05] So, you know, fair point.

[01:54:06] I think you answered there.

[01:54:09] Mark.

[01:54:09] He's also a Ravie Point character, so.

[01:54:11] Yeah.

[01:54:11] Exactly.

[01:54:12] Again, I'm loving the season.

[01:54:14] The acting of Celebrimbor, Kyrdon, and both Durin's has kept me on pins and needles.

[01:54:18] But this was a little too far of a stretch.

[01:54:21] Fair enough, Mark.

[01:54:22] Registered and not disagreed with.

[01:54:26] Keep up the great work podcasting.

[01:54:28] Loving them.

[01:54:28] Thanks, Mark.

[01:54:29] We appreciate your email.

[01:54:30] Yeah, thanks a lot.

[01:54:31] Maybe this was one of those instances that John talked about where, you know, they weren't allowed to make any edits.

[01:54:37] Right.

[01:54:37] And we have to put things on screen and we have to compress time.

[01:54:40] And, you know, do all that stuff.

[01:54:43] Yeah.

[01:54:43] All right.

[01:54:43] Next up, Jim.

[01:54:44] The Siege of Eregion was a visual treat.

[01:54:47] However, for me, there were some issues like fighting in the mud, siege engines that didn't add up.

[01:54:52] And it was always going to be the hard bar to hit when we have been spoiled by Helm's Deep and the Pelennor Fields battle from Lord of the Rings.

[01:55:01] I will say the real treat for me, though, for the battle was Damron.

[01:55:09] The CGI was great.

[01:55:11] I loved seeing a troll with hair.

[01:55:14] It just made him look all the more.

[01:55:15] You're really into Damrod, David.

[01:55:17] He's awesome.

[01:55:18] You bring him up like every podcast.

[01:55:20] And then when he gets hit in the belly by the Ravager thing.

[01:55:24] Yeah, it was good.

[01:55:25] I really enjoyed it.

[01:55:27] I got Helm's Deep vibes a little bit, mostly when they were playing with siege ladders.

[01:55:33] But on the whole, I don't think there was sufficient reflect.

[01:55:37] Because, of course, the conditions are completely different.

[01:55:39] The castle's different, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[01:55:41] I am glad they didn't have Elrond and Doran counting their kills and competing.

[01:55:46] That would have been too much for me.

[01:55:48] Seriously.

[01:55:49] For sure.

[01:55:49] And it wasn't that kind of a battle.

[01:55:52] We did get dwarves with machine gun crossbows.

[01:55:55] Anyway, Cincinnati Joe says, while this season was definitely better than the first, it still wasn't great to me.

[01:56:01] I won't go into a long list of nits, but why was Galadriel such a failure?

[01:56:10] She hunts for Sauron for a millennia, and then he falls in her lap.

[01:56:14] Yet she can't even tell it's him.

[01:56:16] Once he reveals himself fully to her, she tells no one.

[01:56:20] Because of her, Celebrimbor is doomed, Aragion falls, and the seven and nine tainted rings are created and loosed upon the world.

[01:56:30] Celebrimbor's dying wish was that for her to flee with the nine rings for men, she had one job.

[01:56:36] Instead, she wastes time trying to help a handful of people escape.

[01:56:39] We've seen her kill orcs by the score, but when she's surrounded, she tells them immediately that she has the rings that they don't know existed.

[01:56:48] When Sauron shows up instead of fleeing, she stands and watches until he realizes she has them.

[01:56:55] Throwing herself off a cliff was bold and somehow manages not to kill her.

[01:57:00] Shrug emoji.

[01:57:02] Do you think she'll do better next season?

[01:57:04] I guess my overall issue with the season was that too often it seemed like the creators knew an outcome or a scene they wanted, but they didn't handle the details carefully enough.

[01:57:13] Once I started noticing that, it drives me crazy.

[01:57:18] We've talked a lot about that.

[01:57:20] Once we get, as a reaction, once we get bounced out and we lose that verisimilitude, we start to see all the flaws and the stitching and try to pick at all the things.

[01:57:31] The version is broken.

[01:57:32] Yeah.

[01:57:33] I mean, he's not wrong in many respects.

[01:57:35] I would add, for example, that she tells no one, yes, it's out of shame, which was not a good justification.

[01:57:45] I think it's going too far to say because of her, Celebrimbor is doomed, Regian falls, etc., etc.

[01:57:53] Sauron had a little bit to do with that too.

[01:57:55] I'm just saying, you know, appropriate responsibility appropriately, as it were.

[01:58:04] Yeah.

[01:58:05] And Celebrimbor's dying wish was that she help the non-combatants of Regian to flee.

[01:58:13] I think he actually asks her to do that and says, I will just stay behind and distracts Sauron and get away.

[01:58:20] Also, there is the whole idea of like, and the stranger learns this lesson, right?

[01:58:23] Which is, if you're not going to save the innocents, what's the point of being good?

[01:58:27] Right.

[01:58:27] You're not being good.

[01:58:28] You're just treating things like a game like the evil people do.

[01:58:32] And they were also doing an echo of Idril Celebrimdolf's secret tunnel out of Gondolin.

[01:58:39] I'm pretty sure that they wanted to hear it.

[01:58:41] Secret tunnel!

[01:58:42] Secret tunnel!

[01:58:43] Sorry, anyone who watched Avatar the Last Airbender, you will get that, and anyone else is very confused as to why I'm singing.

[01:58:49] Oh, it's just you, Jon.

[01:58:51] I know you like to just break out in song.

[01:58:52] Yep, yep, yep.

[01:58:53] And it's an excellent point that the orcs should have had no clue as to what the Nine Rings were, unless the blood of Sauron was calling to them.

[01:59:00] But that's, you know, thank goodness they didn't try to do that jazz hands.

[01:59:05] Right.

[01:59:06] But there is a lot that she has to answer for.

[01:59:10] Absolutely.

[01:59:11] And she starts to answer for it in this season, I think.

[01:59:14] Right.

[01:59:15] All right.

[01:59:16] I'm going to carry on, if that's all right.

[01:59:18] Yeah.

[01:59:19] We're going to move into a new section on our format.

[01:59:22] Mike S.

[01:59:23] Hello.

[01:59:24] To begin with, I've been joining your podcast since the second age.

[01:59:26] Ooh, an OG listener.

[01:59:28] Love that.

[01:59:28] Ooh, yay.

[01:59:29] Thanks for sharing your knowledge and giving fans like me a place to indulge my love for Middle Earth.

[01:59:33] David, I appreciate your curiosity.

[01:59:36] John, I appreciate your point of view and sense of humor.

[01:59:39] And Marilyn, you're simply wonderful.

[01:59:42] Thank you, Mike.

[01:59:44] Thank you also for Rings and Rituals.

[01:59:47] Well, you're very welcome.

[01:59:48] What a lovely sentiment all over the place.

[01:59:50] Very kind.

[01:59:51] Thank you.

[01:59:51] I defended season one to the point of exhaustion with my peers.

[01:59:55] So, I'm very much enjoying the enthusiasm everyone seems to be sharing for this season.

[02:00:00] I've only watched up to episode seven at this point, but it seems to me the show is preparing us for the fall of Khazad-dum.

[02:00:07] Having read The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, though I was young and admittedly the movies have crowded my memory, am I wrong in remembering the fall of Moria took place during the third age?

[02:00:17] I was under the assumption that Balan and Ori traveled to Moria and acted as stewards or something along those lines.

[02:00:24] Am I completely off on this?

[02:00:26] Is the show just going in a different direction, or were there multiple ages of this kingdom?

[02:00:34] Any knowledge you can share is always welcome.

[02:00:36] Forgive me if I'm completely wrong about this.

[02:00:38] Thank you.

[02:00:39] Thanks, Mike.

[02:00:41] Thank you for your kind words.

[02:00:42] And do we have a little bit of lore on Khazad-dum and Moria?

[02:00:47] How do we get from Khazad-dum to Moria?

[02:00:50] Well, I just want to say, I think this email was sent after episode seven, so Mike would not have seen the kind of closure of the Balrog plot.

[02:01:00] What I think is the closure of the Balrog plot.

[02:01:03] Right.

[02:01:03] But Marilyn, you were going to say?

[02:01:05] Well, just that you're right that it was the third age that the Balrog first appears.

[02:01:10] And remember, you know, Gandalf doesn't even know what it is when he first encounters it.

[02:01:15] But if the Balrog had made such a splash appearance in the second age, I think everybody would have remembered it.

[02:01:22] At least Gimli.

[02:01:24] He knew about Dorin's pain.

[02:01:26] But of course, it was because it was the third age when it happened.

[02:01:29] So, the dwarves tell their stories going back that far.

[02:01:34] And this could be something of a stumbling block.

[02:01:36] I don't know what they're going to do, show-wise.

[02:01:40] Unless, I think, John, it was you who suggested that they're just going to say, right, you know, Balrog is completely shut up and completely unavailable.

[02:01:48] He's disposed of.

[02:01:49] We're not going to see him again.

[02:01:51] I'd be perfectly happy with that, you know.

[02:01:54] They had their fun.

[02:01:55] They did their PJ moment.

[02:01:56] They said, wow, look, we can do a Balrog too.

[02:01:58] And it was a wonderful ending for Dorin III.

[02:02:03] And both of them acted the heck out of it.

[02:02:05] And so, it was a great scene.

[02:02:07] I loved it.

[02:02:09] But I hope we're not going to have, you know, Return of the Balrog any time in the next couple of seasons.

[02:02:16] Because I just don't think it's necessary.

[02:02:17] So, just in terms of nomenclature, Khazad-dum and Moria.

[02:02:24] Moria is the fallen name.

[02:02:26] Okay, got it.

[02:02:27] It's what it's named post-fall.

[02:02:29] Got it.

[02:02:30] Moria is the elvish for Black Pit.

[02:02:33] Oh, there you go.

[02:02:34] And so, that's what it becomes after the Balrog has, you know, chased all the dwarves out.

[02:02:40] But then Gimli is unaware that Moria is fallen.

[02:02:44] Oh, no, no, no.

[02:02:46] Well, okay.

[02:02:47] So, Moria is the name given to it after the Balrog does everything in the third age.

[02:02:55] Balrog-ian things.

[02:02:55] But, like, well before Gimli's friends had revived it.

[02:03:00] Gimli's friends died in an effort to reestablish Khazad-dum from the ruins of Moria.

[02:03:07] But he knew it was called Moria because it had already been a ruin.

[02:03:09] Got it, got it.

[02:03:10] And then that's when, in the movie, when we see in that room and all that kind of stuff, that was the reoccupying force.

[02:03:17] Right, right, right.

[02:03:18] Yeah, got it.

[02:03:19] Okay, that makes sense now.

[02:03:20] Because I didn't know that it was so infested with orcs at that point.

[02:03:23] Perfect.

[02:03:23] And it was the orcs, presumably, who, you know, called the Balrog and said, hey, we got some trouble taking.

[02:03:30] Pest control, please!

[02:03:31] All right, moving on.

[02:03:32] Arthur H., listening to the discussion of the gift of Min in the feedback episode, I must recall the words of Arwen at the end of the tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

[02:03:44] If this is the gift of the one to Min, then it is bitter.

[02:03:50] Did anyone think to keep the receipt?

[02:03:57] Oh, this is Arthur.

[02:03:59] This is Arthur.

[02:04:01] This is Arthur.

[02:04:03] I have to put that into context for myself.

[02:04:05] Yeah, I think Arthur.

[02:04:06] I will say, you know, talking to Mark about Nicole's idea of scheduled and unscheduled losses, right?

[02:04:12] Scheduled and unscheduled grief.

[02:04:14] Arwen is someone who expected to be immortal.

[02:04:16] Arwen did not expect to have to die at all and did not expect to be married to a mortal and to have to lose a husband.

[02:04:23] And so I think that's part of the bitterness, right?

[02:04:27] Like, Aragorn, from the time he's born to the time he dies, understands that he will die one day.

[02:04:32] And he's actually one of the...

[02:04:33] He is the first Numenorean descendant in a long time to accept it.

[02:04:40] And Arwen doesn't have that benefit.

[02:04:43] She has to learn that later in life after being a serial longevity for however long.

[02:04:50] Thousands of years.

[02:04:52] And so I think there's a big difference there.

[02:04:54] And so it is bitter to receive if you weren't expecting it, for sure.

[02:04:58] Well, and even if you were expecting it.

[02:05:00] And yet, Aragorn has the wisdom to know that it's going to happen.

[02:05:06] And therefore, he wants to pick the time himself.

[02:05:10] And to have it be a peaceful fall and a sleep and a departure.

[02:05:15] Which, again, very few humans are able to do.

[02:05:18] Well, of course, I'm not sure anybody can do that now.

[02:05:20] Some people say they can or have done whatever.

[02:05:25] And it's...

[02:05:26] Yeah, it's part of his culture.

[02:05:29] His people.

[02:05:30] You speak people after they're dead, Marilyn?

[02:05:32] Not if I can avoid it.

[02:05:34] They have done it.

[02:05:35] That's why I was like, wait, what?

[02:05:37] No, just some people say that...

[02:05:40] There was a whole movie which premises around

[02:05:43] it's the last day of a life of a woman

[02:05:45] and she wakes up and thinks, yes, today would be a good day to die.

[02:05:48] And I don't think there's any, you know,

[02:05:50] chemical assistance or anything involved.

[02:05:53] And I think there...

[02:05:54] I think people can reach a point.

[02:05:56] I'm thinking of both an aunt and my mother

[02:06:00] where they decide this just isn't fun anymore.

[02:06:03] I'm ready to go.

[02:06:04] And they just kind of, you know, let go.

[02:06:08] Don't ask me to explain it.

[02:06:10] I have a relative like that as well.

[02:06:12] Hit 101 and then died the next day.

[02:06:15] Wow.

[02:06:16] Yep.

[02:06:16] And some people hold on until, you know,

[02:06:19] their children can come and say their final farewells.

[02:06:21] And we may have more control over the whole process than we think,

[02:06:25] but we won't know until, you know, the time actually comes, I suppose.

[02:06:29] Right.

[02:06:30] On that, Cherry Notes...

[02:06:32] Yeah, I know.

[02:06:32] I was like, we are.

[02:06:33] Jim.

[02:06:34] Whew.

[02:06:35] Jim says,

[02:06:36] I have been listening since before the breaking of the first podcast.

[02:06:40] Uh-oh.

[02:06:40] In that time, I have listened to many lore hounds of the early years.

[02:06:45] Long-time listener.

[02:06:46] First-time emailer.

[02:06:47] Thank you, Jim.

[02:06:48] Good to hear from you.

[02:06:50] Great, Jim.

[02:06:51] Thanks.

[02:06:51] I've always been a fan of Middle Earth and Lord of the Rings as far as I can remember.

[02:06:54] I remember my dad reading to me The Hobbit and The Fellowship of the Ring when I was a kid.

[02:06:59] Seeing the trilogy when I was younger was so influential when I was growing up.

[02:07:04] I even traveled to New Zealand many years ago to see the Shire in Matamata.

[02:07:12] I can't say it.

[02:07:13] Matamata.

[02:07:13] Matamata.

[02:07:14] Thank you.

[02:07:15] Canoeing down the Anduin River and seeing the Middle Earth firsthand.

[02:07:18] New Zealand is breathtaking and the most welcoming, friendly people I've ever encountered.

[02:07:23] Well, if that's not a...

[02:07:25] Travel endorsement.

[02:07:26] Exactly.

[02:07:27] And I can definitely second everything he said.

[02:07:29] Matamata is wonderful.

[02:07:30] The Anduin River, quote-unquote, beautiful, and so many other things.

[02:07:34] It's just a joy to be able to take that kind of a leisurely and lengthy trip through those two islands.

[02:07:42] One bite will fill a grown man.

[02:07:47] Continuing, the Silmarillion and the history and lore of the First and Second Ages have eluded me for many years now.

[02:07:53] Two young children and a job that keeps me very busy.

[02:07:56] I could never get past the first few chapters of the Silmarillion without having to restart it again.

[02:08:01] This has frustrated me for many years.

[02:08:04] Your Second Age podcasts were such a great jumping-off point for me.

[02:08:07] I was hooked on them.

[02:08:08] Listening to John and Marilyn and their extensive knowledge of Tolkien was so helpful in my understanding.

[02:08:14] The way you guys broke it down in decisable chunks was perfect.

[02:08:17] I still go back and listen to them every now and then.

[02:08:20] This really gave me the push to throw myself into the history and lore, so thank you so much.

[02:08:26] Oh, you touched my teacher's heart with great delight.

[02:08:29] Our work here is done, John.

[02:08:31] We've been ticed.

[02:08:32] No, no, we've got more work to do because, John, after he—Jim has to go in to make sure to listen to the Silmarillion podcast,

[02:08:39] and then, of course, the—what's your next project, John?

[02:08:43] I'm not committing to anything yet, David.

[02:08:44] You're not locking me down.

[02:08:46] That's a good idea.

[02:08:48] Bully you into doing it.

[02:08:49] But it's John who deserves all the credit for coming up with a format and an approach that just really works very well.

[02:08:55] I don't know.

[02:08:56] David and I both workshopped The Second Age for a long time.

[02:09:00] Okay.

[02:09:01] People don't know this, but there was a secret first episode that we went through the entire history of Numenor in one episode.

[02:09:08] We were going to—the Second Age podcast was originally three podcasts.

[02:09:13] Three episodes.

[02:09:14] So, this goes—

[02:09:15] We tried to do it in—this long-windedness.

[02:09:19] This thing of like, oh, we'll do this in a very short period of time goes all the way back to the—

[02:09:23] It goes back all the way to the dawn.

[02:09:26] Before the breaking of the first silence.

[02:09:27] Yes.

[02:09:28] And, yeah, we had to—we were like, all right, maybe we double the length of the podcast and we do some other stuff, too.

[02:09:37] And then—

[02:09:37] Yeah.

[02:09:38] Yeah.

[02:09:38] So.

[02:09:39] All right.

[02:09:39] Continuing Jim's email.

[02:09:40] Along with your podcast, I watch a lot of Nerd of the Rings videos on YouTube that helps visually to see the maps and movements of characters and armies.

[02:09:47] I highly recommend this for anyone who's out there who wants to delve deeper.

[02:09:51] That is great.

[02:09:51] I also have to highlight The Silmarillion by Andy Serkis on Audible 2.

[02:09:56] I am halfway through it now, and it's brilliant.

[02:09:58] Andy Serkis' voice is very powerful and versatile.

[02:10:01] Along with you guys, I'm enjoying my commutes to work in the car and sometimes stay on the motorway longer than just to make sure I have to finish a chapter or a podcast.

[02:10:11] Get you just blown to the parking lot?

[02:10:13] You don't have to use all that extra gas.

[02:10:14] I think that's what he means, probably.

[02:10:15] Yeah.

[02:10:16] Yeah.

[02:10:16] The NPR effect.

[02:10:18] Well, that's great.

[02:10:19] That's great.

[02:10:19] And, yeah, I'm glad that you're with us, Jim.

[02:10:22] Thanks for writing in, and I hope you're enjoying diving deeper into the lore.

[02:10:28] We'll keep going on the Tolkien if you do.

[02:10:30] Yeah.

[02:10:31] We've got War of the Roharim coming up next, and then, of course, we'll have – Marilyn will have season two of Rings and Rituals.

[02:10:38] And Silmarillion stories going, of course.

[02:10:40] Of course.

[02:10:40] Absolutely.

[02:10:42] Yeah, thanks, Jim.

[02:10:42] All right.

[02:10:43] Karen R., I believe this is a continuation from their email from earlier.

[02:10:48] I listen to a lot of Tolkien podcasts these days, a habit I acquired when I needed help to process the disappointment of season one, and you guys were my favorite.

[02:10:59] I so appreciate the combination of generosity and learning with which you approach the adaptation, and even as an old Tolkienista, I benefited from your Second Age refresher course before the series began.

[02:11:12] Marilyn is a fantastic addition to the cast.

[02:11:14] I love that we are increasingly hearing glee as well as sober wisdom in Marilyn's voice.

[02:11:20] Great job, too, with the explication of the Beowulf and Tolkien's relationship to the poem of Maldron in the Circle of Light episode.

[02:11:29] Oh, there you got a little praise for a Circle of Light episode, John.

[02:11:32] Oh, very good.

[02:11:32] Very good.

[02:11:33] I'm glad that somebody liked that.

[02:11:34] I've taught Beowulf and Tolkien on Beowulf and Maldon, and many times I've appreciated the compendious treatment.

[02:11:43] Oops, sorry, my cat just kicked the keyboard and changed my position on the page.

[02:11:50] And she's very demanding right now.

[02:11:52] She's like saying, pet me, pet me.

[02:11:54] Well, you've been here long enough.

[02:11:56] Yes, exactly.

[02:11:57] Come to bed so I can curl up in the crook of your legs.

[02:12:00] And what a treat to start the most recent feedback episode and hear a letter from Anwen, although I wish she had sent a voicemail as her New Zealand accent is not to be missed.

[02:12:12] Her podcast is my other favorite, Rings of Power cast.

[02:12:15] You really do need to get Anwen and her co-host Penny on as guests when you can.

[02:12:20] All right.

[02:12:21] All right.

[02:12:22] Look into that.

[02:12:23] I didn't participate on that particular podcast.

[02:12:26] I think I was feeling a bit poorly that day.

[02:12:28] Yeah.

[02:12:29] And I will say that the folks over at House of Podcastica, I used to listen to a lot of their Walking Dead coverage back in the day with Jason and other folks.

[02:12:39] They've always struck me as really kind people.

[02:12:42] The whole lot of them.

[02:12:43] Everybody for all the different shows they do, really kind people and very genuine.

[02:12:48] And so it was really lovely to get an email from them.

[02:12:51] So that's my shout out back to those fine folks there.

[02:12:55] And I think you're automatically qualified to talk about Tolkien if you're from New Zealand.

[02:13:00] It's built into, it's part of your, it says it in the passport if you travel.

[02:13:05] Tolkien expert.

[02:13:06] Yeah.

[02:13:06] Yeah.

[02:13:06] It's the closest I've ever gotten to going to New Zealand is when a new video game comes out.

[02:13:11] Sometimes you can change your time zone on your Xbox to go to New Zealand and so that it unlocks 12 hours earlier.

[02:13:20] All right, my friends, we can see the end here.

[02:13:23] The last two, we have Ibrahim with a short message.

[02:13:28] Amazing podcast.

[02:13:29] You've inspired me to finally buy the books and dive into the world of Tolkien.

[02:13:33] Well, audiobooks.

[02:13:34] Hey, they count.

[02:13:35] They count.

[02:13:36] Absolutely.

[02:13:36] In your opinion, in what order would you recommend people read the works?

[02:13:43] Wow.

[02:13:43] We're going to have as many opinions as we have podcasts here.

[02:13:46] If not more.

[02:13:47] I mean, so much depends on what you're interested in and why.

[02:13:53] When I introduced my partner to the world of Tolkien by reading them to him, I started with The Hobbit and then I went to The Lord of the Rings and then I did Silmarillion.

[02:14:03] Just because most people are interested in stories and Silmarillion is more of a mythology and a compendium and an analystic history, which is kind of tough sledding if you don't know much about the world and you start there.

[02:14:19] So, for the rest of it, you know, it's up to you.

[02:14:22] It so much depends on what has drawn you into the world and what continues to maintain your interests.

[02:14:26] So, what do you think, John?

[02:14:28] The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Lord of the Rings again, The Silmarillion, The Silmarillion again.

[02:14:36] When you say Lord of the Rings, are you talking all three?

[02:14:39] Yes.

[02:14:39] Okay, the complete.

[02:14:40] That is one book in my opinion.

[02:14:42] That's one book.

[02:14:43] Absolutely one book.

[02:14:44] Yeah.

[02:14:44] It was in Tolkien's mind as well.

[02:14:46] Right, right, right, right, right.

[02:14:49] Silmarillion twice, like I said, Unfinished Tales, The Three Great Tales, which are Beren and Luthien, I don't think in this order, The Children of Hurin, and The Fall of Gondolin.

[02:15:01] Then, it's kind of free-for-all, but you can, I mean, if you really want to read, like, every word, I would probably go Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien after that.

[02:15:11] Right.

[02:15:12] Maybe the Humphrey Carpenter biography, and then go into things like History of Middle-earth, which is the, like, 12-volume huge compendium of everything Tolkien ever wrote, basically.

[02:15:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[02:15:25] And some of them do read almost like text, like The Lost Tales 1 and 2, you can read through fairly easily.

[02:15:32] Some of them are just chunks of literary textual analysis, and you really gotta wanna.

[02:15:39] Yeah.

[02:15:40] It's fun, once you are familiar with Lord of the Rings, to read the four volumes that encompass his early drafts.

[02:15:47] Hmm.

[02:15:47] Because it's really interesting to see how the story develops, but I wouldn't recommend that necessarily right away.

[02:15:54] It's only that when you can stomach the notion that Frodo was initially called Bingo Bungo Baggins, that...

[02:15:59] Yeah, I know, that would always get to me.

[02:16:01] Enter that world.

[02:16:03] Maybe you need to publish your appendix N, John, of your order of reading the books.

[02:16:09] I mean, I've not read all of that.

[02:16:11] I have not read all of History of Middle-earth, and probably nor will I read the whole thing, because it is, like Marilyn said, some of it is very readable.

[02:16:20] 12 volumes?

[02:16:21] And some of it is not.

[02:16:21] 12.

[02:16:22] Yeah, and it's not like 12 novels.

[02:16:24] It is 12 books that are largely reference.

[02:16:27] And so, I've used it a lot as reference, but I don't really read it straight through like you would in novel.

[02:16:32] Like reading the Encyclopedia Britannica.

[02:16:34] Right.

[02:16:35] Something like that.

[02:16:36] But if you go into, you know, the two things I mentioned, but then there's also Morgos Ring and the Peoples of Middle-earth.

[02:16:45] Right, as part of History of Middle-earth.

[02:16:46] Yeah, because they give you Tolkien's own reflections towards the end of his life, a lot of the background stuff.

[02:16:54] If you're really interested in how Tolkien conceived of the, you know, serial longevity versus mortality, there's some excellent stuff in it.

[02:17:03] I remember a really good passage in Peoples of Middle-earth on the Dwarven Rings, actually.

[02:17:07] Yes.

[02:17:08] That was the whole thing.

[02:17:09] Yes.

[02:17:09] Also, there are a few post-Christopher books.

[02:17:15] I think just two, actually, right?

[02:17:16] Absolutely.

[02:17:16] It's just Nature of Middle-earth, which is very good.

[02:17:20] I've read a lot of that.

[02:17:21] The Nature of Middle-earth, which is kind of a compendium of a lot of lore.

[02:17:26] And The Fall of Numenor, which is just a compilation of all the Second Age writings.

[02:17:30] You don't really need that if you have all the other stuff, but it's nice to have.

[02:17:33] You know, it's just a nice little compendium.

[02:17:35] It helps straighten out things in your mind.

[02:17:36] And then, of course, if you're interested in languages, there's another whole forest of writings, which I don't know much about myself anyway.

[02:17:45] You won't run out, but if you want to read the main stories and everything, I would just stop at The Great Tales.

[02:17:55] Do Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The Three Great Tales.

[02:17:59] Yeah.

[02:18:00] Yeah, I would agree with that.

[02:18:02] Here we are.

[02:18:03] The final category, as Nancy wrote it.

[02:18:07] All right, then.

[02:18:08] Don't keep your secrets.

[02:18:10] This is a standalone email from Andrew S.

[02:18:14] This might not be possible, but I would love a long episode or series of episodes where you all discuss your thoughts and ideas regarding the future of the show with full spoilers.

[02:18:27] No Frodo quote sound bites.

[02:18:30] For those of us who love the series and have read the lore and the books, it would be such a fun way to listen to your ideas on the future of the show and where you thought characters and the plot lines would end up.

[02:18:42] I love the season and all and have really enjoyed being a subscriber.

[02:18:46] Thank you for all that you do.

[02:18:48] Thank you, Andrew S.

[02:18:50] Thank you.

[02:18:51] So I put this in a at the end because I was like, maybe we could just give a spoiler warning and give a two minute conversation on where we think this is going.

[02:19:00] But I want to also say.

[02:19:02] Two minutes.

[02:19:03] I'm doing giant scare quotes.

[02:19:05] Before we do that, we have we already have the six episode Second Age series.

[02:19:13] Right.

[02:19:13] Where we talk about the full history of the Second Age.

[02:19:17] Right.

[02:19:17] So you will be able to get spoilers for the whole series for that.

[02:19:21] So if you really want a deep dive onto everything, go back, you know, two years to the to the Second Age podcast.

[02:19:29] And that's in the main Tolkien feed.

[02:19:30] If you want like an easy way to find it, it's the first step in the Tolkien feed.

[02:19:34] But yeah, so I'm going to give a big spoiler warning here.

[02:19:37] We're going to we're going to talk big spoiler, big spoilers in a moment.

[02:19:42] I just want to say before we do that, thank you, everyone, for coming.

[02:19:45] If you don't want spoilers.

[02:19:47] And I want to mention that our live show was canceled because of Hurricane Milton.

[02:19:51] Unfortunately, it was in the path of one of our coho one of our podcast.

[02:19:57] The organizer.

[02:19:58] Yeah.

[02:19:58] So I just wanted to say, you know, we hope Aaron and.

[02:20:03] And his family are safe.

[02:20:04] And we are going to cancel it for now.

[02:20:06] We'll let you know if we reschedule something later.

[02:20:08] Anyone who bought a ticket will get a full refund.

[02:20:11] Just want to check it out.

[02:20:11] It should already have done, actually.

[02:20:12] Yeah.

[02:20:13] Yeah.

[02:20:13] I think that should be done already.

[02:20:16] Please stick around for any, you know, our other shows on the network.

[02:20:21] We'll talk about them again at the end.

[02:20:23] But at the end of every one of our podcasts, we talk about everything happening.

[02:20:26] So you're not going to hear anything too new.

[02:20:28] Agatha, Dune, Silo.

[02:20:31] I think that's enough said.

[02:20:32] Penguin.

[02:20:33] Penguin.

[02:20:33] We're doing some.

[02:20:34] Check out Nevermind the music.

[02:20:35] Yeah.

[02:20:35] They're doing great stuff.

[02:20:38] Radioactive ramblings.

[02:20:39] Radioactive ramblings.

[02:20:40] Yep.

[02:20:40] Yep.

[02:20:41] Yep.

[02:20:42] And Alicia is cranking up Silo.

[02:20:44] Yeah.

[02:20:44] I just.

[02:20:44] Yeah.

[02:20:45] Yeah.

[02:20:46] That's coming soon.

[02:20:47] Real quick, John, on the Supercast season pass.

[02:20:52] Have we thought about what we're going to how we're going to leave that open for a while?

[02:20:57] Yeah.

[02:20:58] A couple of weeks.

[02:20:59] A couple of weeks.

[02:20:59] And then after that, you'll just have to sign up for regular Patreon or Supercast if you want the bonus stuff.

[02:21:04] Sounds good.

[02:21:06] Yep.

[02:21:06] Great.

[02:21:07] And always come over to the Discord and join in the conversation there.

[02:21:12] Yep.

[02:21:12] Definitely.

[02:21:14] All right.

[02:21:15] Cool.

[02:21:15] So we're going to do some spoilery spoiler things?

[02:21:18] We're going to do a little bit of spoiler.

[02:21:19] And then we'll do our thank yous at the end then?

[02:21:21] Yeah.

[02:21:22] Okay.

[02:21:22] Yeah.

[02:21:23] Goodbye, all you non-spoiler people.

[02:21:26] You had a great time.

[02:21:27] I hope you'll join us on another show.

[02:21:27] Thank you, everyone, one and all, for your support.

[02:21:29] Thank you so much.

[02:21:30] It's been great.

[02:21:30] Thank you.

[02:21:33] Keep it secret.

[02:21:34] Keep it safe.

[02:21:36] All right, then.

[02:21:37] Don't keep your secrets.

[02:21:38] I wasn't prepared for.

[02:21:39] Did you like that?

[02:21:39] Did you like my turn of phrase there?

[02:21:41] Oh, yeah.

[02:21:42] I wasn't prepared for spoiler stuff, so.

[02:21:45] Do you want us to not do it in front of you?

[02:21:47] No, I don't care.

[02:21:48] We did the whole.

[02:21:49] I did the whole.

[02:21:50] Yeah, exactly.

[02:21:51] The whole second age.

[02:21:52] I don't think there's anything we talk about that you don't know something about.

[02:21:55] Yeah, exactly.

[02:21:55] So I want to limit us to just next season.

[02:21:57] What do we think is going to be the focus next season?

[02:21:59] Oh, goodness.

[02:22:00] I'm not at all prepared for this conversation.

[02:22:02] Well, the forging of the One Ring, the migration of all the Uruks back to Mostor, where they will become orcs again.

[02:22:13] Mm-hmm.

[02:22:16] It looks like they're going to go for the denuding of the forests and some kind of Numenoreans as resource colonizers.

[02:22:33] Yeah, yeah.

[02:22:34] That was clearly communicated at the end with Kemmen there in Palagir.

[02:22:41] Is Yldur just going to go back?

[02:22:42] I wonder if they will use him as a hostage and try to threaten Elendil to bring him back into-

[02:22:47] I can see that.

[02:22:50] Armenalos.

[02:22:51] We have his father going to the west.

[02:22:53] Right, but is he going to turn and come back when he gets a message saying, hey, is Yldur alive?

[02:22:58] And if you want to still see him alive, then come back to be judged or whatever.

[02:23:03] That will be some good fodder for some clandestine meetings and, you know, drama for, you know.

[02:23:09] I really hope-

[02:23:10] And what's her name?

[02:23:11] His daughter, Aarion.

[02:23:14] Aarion.

[02:23:14] Aarion, yeah.

[02:23:14] So, they're all still alive, so.

[02:23:17] So, he may continue to erode Aarion's walls of certitude about her choices.

[02:23:22] Well, she certainly protected him, so.

[02:23:25] Yes, yes, which may be the early signs.

[02:23:28] I really hope they show us Yldur saving a sapling from the white tree.

[02:23:34] Yes, that's a big character moment.

[02:23:36] They've got to do it.

[02:23:37] They absolutely need to do that, if only for reparations to what Peter Jackson and company did to Ysildur's character in the opening of The Ring.

[02:23:45] Yeah, exactly.

[02:23:47] Exactly.

[02:23:48] Yeah.

[02:23:48] Exactly.

[02:23:50] For me, I think we have to see Sauron go to Numenor.

[02:23:54] We've got to see him really-

[02:23:56] That fast?

[02:23:56] Wow.

[02:23:57] Yeah, well, I think the Numenoreans are going to, or, you know, maybe at the end of the season they capture him.

[02:24:05] If he goes south, are they going to capture him from Palagir?

[02:24:09] Yeah, well, so, basically the whole thing with Sauron in the books is that he thinks that he's all tough, and then the Numenoreans come and he's like, oh, I actually can't beat these guys with my current forces.

[02:24:24] So, I'm going to surrender, and I'll improvise.

[02:24:27] I will figure out what to do once I'm on the other side.

[02:24:29] So, they take him into custody, and basically immediately he gets into Farazone's ear.

[02:24:34] And he ends up, you know, corrupting him even further.

[02:24:38] Which will be even faster because he already saw him as Halbrand.

[02:24:40] Right.

[02:24:41] He's preceded him through the Palantir.

[02:24:43] Right.

[02:24:44] Yeah.

[02:24:44] Right, right.

[02:24:45] I wonder what they're going to have him look like.

[02:24:48] Are they going to have him return to the Halbrand look?

[02:24:51] I think that they showed us exactly what he's going to look like in his fight with Galadriel.

[02:24:56] Ah, good point.

[02:24:58] Black hair.

[02:24:59] Very good point.

[02:24:59] Yeah, that was a call forward.

[02:25:01] Oh, I missed that.

[02:25:02] Huh, I have to-

[02:25:03] Interesting.

[02:25:03] Yeah.

[02:25:04] I thought it looked very much like Halbrand with an Elrond haircut.

[02:25:08] And more Númenorean, I thought.

[02:25:10] And more Númenorean armor and whatnot.

[02:25:12] Yeah, yeah.

[02:25:13] I hope they bring back Círdan.

[02:25:15] I want to see more.

[02:25:16] I mean, I hope we find out what happened to the Númenorean fleet.

[02:25:21] I mean, the Lindon fleet.

[02:25:22] Mm-hmm.

[02:25:23] You know, and maybe that'll help bring back Círdan as well.

[02:25:26] I wondered if they might, because right now, Sauron can rampage around, you know, all of the Elvish lands in the Northwest.

[02:25:32] So, is there some way that the Númenoreans can sail in there to help Círdan basically chase Sauron back?

[02:25:40] Or are they just going to eliminate that whole section and say, right, the Númenoreans are landing there and Sauron is there and somehow-

[02:25:50] I think that's what they're going to do.

[02:25:52] Because Sauron's got a bunch of disorganized former Uruks and, you know, they're not going to be all that great.

[02:25:58] Yeah.

[02:25:58] I think Sauron doesn't want to sacrifice.

[02:26:00] And also, they just took a big loss going into Eregion, right?

[02:26:04] So, they need to regroup there.

[02:26:06] Which means he's going to have to forge the ring fairly early on in Season 3.

[02:26:09] I think that's right.

[02:26:10] I think he's going to forge the ring early on.

[02:26:13] He's going to get captured by Númenore at one point.

[02:26:16] And I think he's going to begin the corruption.

[02:26:22] And perhaps, because we know that some of the Nazgul may be Númenoreans, perhaps he'll start to recruit Nazgul.

[02:26:29] He'll start handing out rings.

[02:26:30] Right, right, right.

[02:26:32] My personal- I would devoutly love if they do what I said before.

[02:26:36] A randir takes Galadriel back to the Greenwood for rest and healing.

[02:26:42] That's where Celebrimbor and Kilibrian have been all this time.

[02:26:45] They're going to have a lot of work to do.

[02:26:47] Yeah, but why, right?

[02:26:50] Why what?

[02:26:50] Why were they there the whole time?

[02:26:54] Because Celebrimbor-

[02:26:55] Celebrimbor was a Sindor and an elf.

[02:26:58] That's where a lot of the Sindor are.

[02:27:01] Post-Valarian's destruction.

[02:27:04] He hasn't met Elvron yet, at least as far as we know.

[02:27:09] So presumably there's no possible link there to take him to Rivendell.

[02:27:12] I don't see how else they're going to bring him in, quite frankly.

[02:27:15] Yeah, I think you're right.

[02:27:19] I think we're going to establish the beginnings of Lothlorien and Rivendell next season.

[02:27:24] We're going to see the new Elven realms.

[02:27:26] Right.

[02:27:26] Which is why, again, I wonder what is Kirdan going to be doing with the Ring of the Ring?

[02:27:30] Please, God, don't have him give it to Gandalf.

[02:27:35] Nah, he's just going to be chilling.

[02:27:36] He's just going to be chilling with his Ring of Fire.

[02:27:39] Making some ships.

[02:27:40] Well, they're going to get back, don't they?

[02:27:43] Well, Kirdan does fight in the Second Age a couple of times.

[02:27:47] Hmm.

[02:27:49] So he's there on the slopes of Mount Doom when Sauron is defeated that time.

[02:27:55] And he and Elvron together advise Isildur to destroy the One Ring.

[02:28:01] So if they're sticking to that, then they've got to get him back somehow.

[02:28:05] Yeah.

[02:28:05] And we're going to have a huge, not next season, but we're going to have a huge battle, right?

[02:28:10] At some point.

[02:28:11] The last battle.

[02:28:12] The last alliance.

[02:28:13] The last alliance.

[02:28:14] Yeah.

[02:28:15] Yeah.

[02:28:15] Yeah.

[02:28:16] I think that's going to be the season five, though.

[02:28:18] Right.

[02:28:18] Yeah, that's got it.

[02:28:19] I think that will probably be the penultimate episode and what I think will happen.

[02:28:24] Well, maybe not the penultimate episode because they have some work to do with Isildur post-war.

[02:28:29] Right.

[02:28:30] They could use the whole.

[02:28:30] Well, for one thing, he's going to have to be married and have children before the war.

[02:28:33] So he's got a lot of work to do.

[02:28:36] The whole season could be around, you know, that could be the fight, right?

[02:28:41] They could do.

[02:28:42] They could be.

[02:28:42] They could do several episodes on.

[02:28:45] Yeah, they could.

[02:28:46] Because you've got to get there.

[02:28:47] It's a years-long siege in the book.

[02:28:50] Sure.

[02:28:51] Yeah.

[02:28:51] I mean.

[02:28:51] Seven years.

[02:28:52] Seven years.

[02:28:53] Mm-hmm.

[02:28:54] Sieges were long affairs.

[02:28:56] If they were carried out properly.

[02:28:58] On the part of the besieged.

[02:29:00] Yeah, I think, again, I don't want to speculate too far out, but I could.

[02:29:04] I'm now going to speculate about the last shot of the season.

[02:29:07] I think the last shot of the season is Gandalf receiving the Ring of Fire and the Astari coming over.

[02:29:12] Oh, interesting.

[02:29:14] Interesting.

[02:29:14] That's my prediction.

[02:29:15] For a three.

[02:29:16] Okay.

[02:29:17] I figured it was going to be.

[02:29:18] No, the whole series.

[02:29:19] Oh, the whole thing.

[02:29:20] Okay, gotcha.

[02:29:20] Okay.

[02:29:21] I figured it was going to be Diego's hand reaching down into the mud and pulling up.

[02:29:25] Could be.

[02:29:26] I could see that too.

[02:29:26] That would be.

[02:29:27] But I think one of the last shots is going to be Gandalf getting the Ring of Fire.

[02:29:31] Yeah, probably.

[02:29:32] For season three, what's going to happen with Durin?

[02:29:34] Durin IV, who is now king.

[02:29:36] That's a good point.

[02:29:37] Well, he's not now king.

[02:29:38] He's completely off the lore now.

[02:29:39] He's not now king.

[02:29:40] We're completely off the lore.

[02:29:42] He's contested.

[02:29:43] He's contested, yeah.

[02:29:45] He's congested?

[02:29:46] Maybe we should get him a...

[02:29:48] With not quill.

[02:29:49] All that dust, you can...

[02:29:51] Not to mention it's starting to get moldy there.

[02:29:54] Yeah, get the ball to heat things up a little bit, drive the moisture out.

[02:29:57] Right, right, right, right.

[02:29:58] Good point.

[02:29:59] Good point.

[02:29:59] Or is that going to dry out the air?

[02:30:00] I don't know.

[02:30:01] Yeah, well, then you'd need a humidifier.

[02:30:02] Well, that's the whole point, yeah.

[02:30:04] But then the mold comes back.

[02:30:07] Like...

[02:30:07] Well, yeah, there's really no lore speculation we could do on that.

[02:30:10] That's just free-falling at this point, so...

[02:30:13] Right.

[02:30:14] Yeah.

[02:30:14] Is he going to take the ring?

[02:30:16] Is his brother going to take the ring and be contested?

[02:30:18] I think he's going to...

[02:30:19] Well, yeah, that's right.

[02:30:20] They name-drop the brother and the other kingdoms who want the rings.

[02:30:24] Mm-hmm.

[02:30:25] Mm-hmm.

[02:30:26] I'm looking forward to meeting Anarion.

[02:30:28] Yes.

[02:30:29] Yes.

[02:30:29] And seeing something of the faithful in the west, which was calling to Isildur every time he was on his ship,

[02:30:34] and they sailed past the peninsula, right?

[02:30:37] Along with the voice of his mother, which is what I think it was.

[02:30:40] It could have been the voice of Oenon, but, you know, I hope we see that.

[02:30:46] That's two off-screen characters, at least two off-screen, three off-screen characters that are hinted at two for sure next season.

[02:30:56] And Galadriel's husband, we don't know if he's going to...

[02:31:00] And daughter.

[02:31:00] And daughter.

[02:31:01] And daughter.

[02:31:02] And daughter.

[02:31:03] But anyway, with these two brothers that are off-screen, on Numenor and in the dwarven kingdoms.

[02:31:12] Yeah, we've had fathers and children for three seasons.

[02:31:15] I wonder if we're going to start getting more into brothership in season three.

[02:31:18] Yeah.

[02:31:18] Well, and we haven't seen the Harfoots in a season either.

[02:31:22] The rest of them, yeah.

[02:31:23] Yeah, that'll be interesting to see how much they pursue that, because they've got a lot of rich stuff to work with.

[02:31:28] I mean, they're going to be trying to migrate back in the middle of, you know, battles all across Middle Earth at this point.

[02:31:34] The fallow hides have got to be involved somewhere.

[02:31:37] Probably.

[02:31:38] Probably.

[02:31:39] I hope they don't emerge in camo and whatnot, as one of our listeners wrote in about.

[02:31:43] I mean, it's an interesting notion, but I think there's more to the fallow hides than, you know, the tooks chasing out the ruffians.

[02:31:50] Right.

[02:31:51] Well, that's basically all I got.

[02:31:53] You know, we've got the Sauron and Numenor corrupting, you know, the faithful sort of regrouping, you know, the founding of the new elven realms of Rivendell and Lothorian.

[02:32:05] I think those are the main beats they have to hit next season.

[02:32:10] And the forging of the one ring.

[02:32:12] And the forging of the one ring, yeah.

[02:32:16] All right.

[02:32:17] And some new Nazgul running around.

[02:32:18] And some new Nazgul.

[02:32:19] I think the Nazgul are going to be a season four focus.

[02:32:22] That's my prediction.

[02:32:23] I think so.

[02:32:23] Yeah, but we'll get them.

[02:32:25] They'll get their rings.

[02:32:26] Yes.

[02:32:27] Some of them.

[02:32:27] I agree.

[02:32:37] Is once Numenor is on the brink of falling, we're going to get some characters popping up.

[02:32:43] And we know one of the Nazguls likely from Rune.

[02:32:46] And so I think Bronc is a strong possibility.

[02:32:51] I forgot his name.

[02:32:54] Well, some people think Bronc was killed.

[02:32:56] I don't think so.

[02:32:57] Yeah.

[02:32:58] But one of those.

[02:32:59] One of the people with the masks.

[02:33:01] Yeah.

[02:33:02] One of the indigenous.

[02:33:03] My people were once kings.

[02:33:04] All right.

[02:33:04] You're a Nazgul.

[02:33:05] Exactly.

[02:33:05] There we go.

[02:33:07] Well, that's too much exposition for a character without being a Nazgul.

[02:33:14] Just should have kept your mouth shut.

[02:33:15] Exactly.

[02:33:17] All right, everyone.

[02:33:18] This has been fun.

[02:33:20] Yes.

[02:33:21] Go check out our affiliates.

[02:33:23] And please join us for more fun stuff on Agatha.

[02:33:27] Dune prophecy later in the year.

[02:33:29] Severance early next year.

[02:33:31] War of the Rohirrim in December.

[02:33:31] Penguin stuff going on too.

[02:33:32] Yeah.

[02:33:33] War of the Rohirrim.

[02:33:34] Can't forget about that.

[02:33:35] War of the Rohirrim.

[02:33:36] That'll be in December.

[02:33:39] David, hit me with some thank yous.

[02:33:42] Hit you with my best shot.

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[02:34:38] You know, reading the feedback that we were getting and hearing the feedback of the people who wrote in, you know, saying thank you for the work that we do on the podcast and sharing their appreciation.

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[02:35:26] So, thank you to our Lore Masters, to all our subscribers and everyone.

[02:35:31] It's been quite a season of television.

[02:35:34] Thank you.

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[02:35:35] Thank you, folks.

[02:35:36] Thanks, everyone.

[02:35:37] It's been a fun season.

[02:35:38] Definitely.

[02:35:39] And we'll see you on the next one.

[02:35:42] The Lore Hounds podcast is produced and published by the Lore Hounds.

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