The Rings of Power - S02E02 - Where the Stars are Strange

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to the Rings of Power podcast where the Lorehounds, your guides to the wonderful

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_03]: world of Middle Earth. I'm David.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm John.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Marilyn. This is our coverage for Prime Video's original series, The Lord of

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_00]: the Rings, The Rings of Power, Season 2, Episode 2.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to start off with our hot takes for the episode before we get into a scene

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_03]: by scene breakdown.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_02]: If you'd like to contact us, send emails to LOTR at thelorehounds.com. If you want to

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_02]: join our Discord server, support the community by subscribing on either Supercast or Patreon.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_02]: You can find all those links in the link tree in the show notes below.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you're not into recurring subscriptions, you can find a link to our Season Pass,

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_03]: which is a great way to support the podcast but not have an ongoing subscription. It's

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_03]: $10 flat. You get access to the one guide to Rule them All, which is our notion-based

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_03]: show guide, which has been curated very carefully by John and Marilyn that has show information

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_03]: that won't spoil you on the wider, bigger story.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's going to have all of our episode breakdowns and screenshots and all that

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of stuff, as well as you get ad-free episodes of all of these podcasts and

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_03]: the weekly bonus lorecast, which is where Marilyn, John and I will take a topic that we find relevant

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_03]: in the episodes. And then we go deep about 30 minutes or so on those to really flesh out

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_03]: the lore of the world a little bit. Let's get right into the podcast because we just recorded

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_03]: our episode one. This is our episode two. We're going to do three tomorrow night. We're

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_03]: gifted a gift from Jeff, the giver of gifts, gave us screeners. So we're very lucky and

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_03]: we're very grateful for those. We're going to be very careful about not spoiling episode

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_03]: to episode even though we're watching ahead. But I think we're pretty good about carving out

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: our little bubbles for each of the episodes.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And we will only be able to watch ahead through episode three because I think after that it

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_02]: will be weekly screeners. So yeah, we're not going to watch ahead after this triple drop. It's

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: just the way scheduling is there's no way to do it without doing that.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Unfortunately, yeah. And that's a very big boon for us to have these. A real quick

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_03]: refresher because we've talked a lot about this on episode one. So any questions about this

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_03]: set up stuff or in our coverage stuff? I refer you back to the episode one.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a general casual fan. John is sort of a super fan. He's read lots and of course

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Marilyn is an academic level and has taught and studied and researched Tolkien. So I think we've

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_03]: got a good spectrum of folks to talk about the show. And I think for our lorecast,

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_03]: we're going to be talking about the Myar and the Starry.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to do sort of a breakdown of power levels.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. From Aruh Arugula. Sorry.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Arugul is a little bit hard for real name. Let's not confuse the masses.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_03]: From the top down right through the supernatural beings.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep. And I think we'll talk about sort of the relative levels of the mortals too.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. Children of a Lupitar. Children of a Lupitar.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Perfect. But yeah, so I've actually placed a really handy

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: visual chart in the show guide. Nice.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're a subscriber, you can access that. And everyone who will listen to the

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_02]: lorecast is a subscriber. So I guess we don't have to worry about that.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_00]: There we go. And it's color coded folks.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_02]: It sure is. Always over.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So let's jump into our hot takes for episode two. Marilyn, why don't you lead us off?

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_03]: What did you think of this episode?

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, just terrific. I thought it was interesting the first episode made me think

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_00]: of Paradise Lost with the whole origin story of Lucifer turned Satan.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Now we have the age old tale of Mesa Stafales and Faust.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. Where Faust is the one who sought knowledge and plumbed the depths of his learning and grew old

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and death is approaching. And now he's feeling all the things that he's missed out in life and

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_00]: saying, oh, if only I could just have my youth back. What would I give to have my youth back?

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: There comes Mephistopheles and says, well,

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_00]: give me your soul and I'll give you your youth back and more besides.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's this definite notion of.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, pays to have an academic on our crew here. That's a great poll. That is a really great

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_00]: poll. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very famous and I don't know how much Tolkien was thinking of it

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_00]: when he created this whole thing. But it's a type of tale that's been told for a very long

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_00]: time. Right? The means of achieving it, that the manipulation that happens is just stunning

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and the way they show these things in particularly in this second season, quite extraordinary.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I will pat myself a little on the back to say that I was satisfied to see the rune

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_00]: plotline developing as I anticipated. Excellent. Good job. We'll say more about that later.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Internet points to you. Internet points to me. Yes.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. I'm pointing at the screen like Leo.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Delighted to see the doors plotline starting up now. Just

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah,

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: wonderful to be back and how's that do and with Duran and Disa.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And still they're working on this theme of trust. You know, who you're going to believe?

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Who are you going to call?

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to call. Don't call Saul. He's not going to help in this case.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So I found that I wonder if it's going to be throughout. I can easily see where it would

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_00]: be throughout the whole season, season two. So we shall see. Great. Yeah. What about you, Dave?

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Kick it over to John. Yeah. All right. All right. I think this is great.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this is exactly what I wanted out of when we did the second age podcast,

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_02]: we talked about Anatar and the Todd. I love the way he has it on the show.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Yeah. And we talked about how it was going to be a whole, how does Sauron get in your head?

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And who is Sauron? How do we recognize him? And how does he play to the vulnerabilities

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: within you? Right? I mean, we see even in the Lord of the Rings, right? When Sam

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_02]: puts on the ring, he sees himself with a great garden, right? Like he's,

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Sauron is very tailored to you. He will, he will tailor his temptations to you. And I think that's

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_02]: really fascinating and that's really characteristic of him as a villain. And so seeing him really

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_02]: play his cards with different characters with Adar. And then with Killa Brimbor. It's

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: really fascinating to see him change, right? He's no longer the lost king of the Soutlands.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Now he is the Lord of Gifts, right? And now he's Elvish and I love how he's so tailor-made to

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_02]: kill a Brimbor that he might not appeal as well to other characters, right? Other characters might

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_02]: be suspicious. So it's really exactly what I wanted from this season. I also, in the middle

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_02]: of this episode, I thought, I see why they did a multiple episode drop. As much as I wish

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_02]: that we had a weekly release all the time, they really are touching on different zones of the world

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_02]: of this massive world in each episode. And so I see why they did what they did. They wanted to

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_02]: give us a taste of everybody by the end of these three. Yeah, we still haven't seen anything from

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: New Menor. So stay tuned, folks. Right. Well, anyway, I'm very thrilled. David?

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that's a good point that they're trying to pick up the energy from the long

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_03]: delay between and so hitting all three and making sure they get full coverage of all of

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_03]: the different plot lines. I think you're right. I think that's a... As we were complaining about

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_03]: the three episode drop, which is a lot of work for us podcasters. And I think a lot of work

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_03]: for viewers do like, oh my God, I gotta... Right. And then people get out of sync because, oh,

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I haven't watched two yet and I haven't watched three yet. And I think that's bad for a water cooler

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_03]: conversation in terms of coalescing people. But at the same time, I get from a story standpoint

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_03]: why they might want to do that a little bit. Yeah, I mean, come on. The extended versions

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: are like four hours of Peter Jackson movies, right? Like you can sit down for a little bit.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't wonder what other programming Amazon has after this, what's coming right up.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_03]: NFL because I think they have NFL. So anyway, let's not try to read the tea leaves at Amazon.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_03]: My overall take, again, like on first viewing, I was like, I'm not sure. And like I said on

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_03]: episode one, is it a me thing or is it a show thing? But doing the breakdown today,

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_03]: there were at least two big scenes. There was one with Galadriel and Elrond. And then Elrond

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_03]: with Kierdon. Yeah. And these really deep conversations, and then of course,

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Trixie Sauron doing all of his kinds of stuff. So even if at some sort of surface level for me,

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_03]: the show, like I'm having a hard time getting into it, if I can sort of get beyond the veil of

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_03]: whatever this is and then actually get into what they're doing with the show,

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_03]: it, wow, like there's some cool stuff here and there's lots of amazing lore things. And I know

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_03]: just enough to go, oh, they said this word or they mentioned that place. And I'm like,

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, what's that about? I get to talk to my friends on the podcast about like,

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_03]: what does that mean? And how is that working? And all of that kind of stuff. So

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm kind of existing in a dual world yet. And we'll see the rest of the season. But

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm definitely underneath at the structure. I'm really liking what they're doing.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And it does feel maybe it's just because these first couple of episodes,

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_03]: it's a huge amount of setup. They're winding up the clockworks for this season.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think the danger is if they spend too much time winding and not actually

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_03]: getting through the resolution of the tension that they're setting up.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_03]: So we'll see how well they've paced the season out by the end of the season.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_03]: One thing I did like from a technical standpoint, from sort of a lore,

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_03]: like a generalist lore standpoint, it was with the Annatar name. They're very good at telling us

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_03]: how to see the names without making it like they're teaching us. But yet they are schooling us

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_03]: with all of these names and these places. And that is really great because

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_03]: as we saw with season one and the mixed results of the season in terms of its,

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, how well it did overall. One thing we know that it did was it brought in a huge wave

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_03]: of new readers. Yes, absolutely. And so this whole new crop of readers and I think even old

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_03]: readers like me, if I go back and I reread Lord of the Rings or get into this little

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_03]: more alien a little bit more, what's going to be in my head? The show because I'm going to

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_03]: hear Khalsa Doom pronounced that way and, you know, and Annatar like pronounced that way. So

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_03]: they're really doing a good job in terms of inculturating us into the world,

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_03]: into these pronunciations and things like that. So. And Galadriel.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Galadriel. All right. All right. So we have to re-hash our old beefs.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's also say that I thought that how they did the summary of season one

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: in the very first episode was very well done. Oh, I skipped that so fast.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, I'm watching for the listeners, John. Yes. Yes. Yes. While I'm glad someone is,

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm watching for myself. Of course you are. We should say before too, we get into the scene by

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_03]: scene. Well, I think John and I, we talked about this before we got on the microphones

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_03]: a little bit about the opening. And I think we're going to talk about the opening credits

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_03]: maybe a little bit later. We'll watch them and see if there's anything interesting.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think we need to spend any time on this episode other than to say that

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_03]: it's a riff on season one. And I don't know yet how significantly different or important.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_03]: There may, there are definite differences because this is a different opening. Yes.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_03]: But I don't know if there's any really thing of importance or significance yet. So

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_03]: we're going to pause on that for a moment. And if there's important stuff in there,

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_02]: we'll bring it back around. Yeah, we've got an episode four so that we spread it out a little bit.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Okay. Did you notice anything that was important that you thought? Well, the first thing

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: to notice is that it's a red gold sand this time. Okay. And wondering what that means.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. Well, didn't the showrunners come out before the season and say,

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_02]: this season's all about the villains? They did. I didn't see that but yeah.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't have all of the black sneaky bits coming through so much.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's still using the cymatics, the modal vibrations. Right.

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a great Wikipedia article on this, CYMATICS. And it talks all about these sort of sand tables

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_03]: and sound wave vibrations and stuff like that. So which I think is a great, we thought it was

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_03]: great in season one because it all goes back to the music. Right. That arrow was the symphonies

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_03]: that he was conducting. Sound creating form. Yeah, exactly.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And John, I know you were a little sad about this but I'm so glad that they're using the

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Howard Shore music for this because it just embedded itself in my heart and soul.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It's growing on me. It's growing on me, the theme. I still much prefer

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Bear's themes within the show. Oh, sure. Oh, sure.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But I just... I may be a little biased since he's come on the pod.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Bias away, you know? Everybody has their own style of music and their own appreciation.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But no, I thought it was a lovely acknowledgement and the passing of the torch.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah. Right.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Plus just the familiarity of the opening music helps bring many of us back into the world again.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So... Fair enough.

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. So our scene by scene guide, John writes a synopsis of the episode and that's going to

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_03]: be all available in the show guide and the one guide. And then we use that as our

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_03]: episode breakdown so we'll be... You can refer back to what we're reading off of if you're a subscriber.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_03]: But John, do you want to take it away?

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Yeah. And don't forget you can click into the names of the characters and the

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02]: locations and it'll bring you to places.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. That's very cool.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Back to the dwarves is the first scene. The pit of Mount Doom smolders as we pan over a map

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: to Khazadum. There we see an array of mirrors bringing lights into the cave.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Doren the third and Disa tightened their purse string. Oh, I'm sorry. It's Doren the fourth.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And Doren the fourth and Disa tightened their purse strings now that Doren has been demoted.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And Disa reaffirms her love for him as she tries to convince Doren to speak to his father.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: She senses an incoming disturbance that collapses the bridge and blocks the light

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: from entering the kingdom.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Marilyn, what did you think of the dwarven technology down here in Khazadum?

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, this has been one of the most magnificent

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_00]: creations of the series. I think so many people are just thrilled to be seeing Khazadum

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and all its glory. My first thought was, are we losing it so soon?

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I wanted another whole season of Khazadum and all its glory. So

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: how they're going to repair this, I don't know. I mean, maybe there's a little

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Dormish Anatar coming along to do something along those lines. But

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_00]: no, I was really sad to see the massive mirrors at the very top of the beautiful sculpture on the

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_00]: eastern gate be destroyed and watch how one by one the reflectors lost the light. And I mean,

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_00]: it was it was very well done. It was very well done. And finally we know why that rock

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: was falling on that particular bridge so good. We're done with that.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. It's not it's not no more discussion about why and how and all that. Yeah, it was not the bell

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_03]: rock even though it could remind you of it. Well, I was going to say that that that scene is very

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_03]: thematically related to the movie scene. Of course. Right. And you know, they're

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_03]: there. They're very good at using the visual language of Jackson's movies.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm pleased to say that they seem to be now limiting themselves to just that I have

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: yet to have a Jacksonian moment that throws me out of the story. Yeah, I think I agree. I think

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm with you on that. I never felt like I got bounced because oh, they're just ripping Jackson.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no. But they are drawing upon Tolkien's language itself. It's so the song that Gilgallad

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_00]: sang in the last episode. Clearly even same phrases that Galadriel sang. I think I

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_00]: mentioned that already. So apologies for repeating myself. I love the visual

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_00]: of the map of Mordor with Mount Doom exploding and the tentacles reaching out through the map.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was cool. And I wondered is this supposed to represent, you know, plate tectonics

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_00]: or is it the Sauron energy? And of course, you could say the answer is yes.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Right, right to both. But it seems now that Sauron equals tentacles. We're going to see

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00]: another scene with this same image, tentacles, roots, no things reaching out and digging in.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. You know, the more we see of Khazadum, the more I think so. So we know that the Balrog

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and the writings of Tolkien doesn't really show up until the third age. And so people were

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_02]: saying, well, are they breaking lore here by having him show up in the second? The more

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I watch this, the more I think either the Balrog was just a tease last season of the third age

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: things that are going to happen and they're not actually going to have a whole bit with it.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Or I think they're going to have the Balrog be dealt with this show and then go his dormant

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_02]: again and then they'll come back in the canonical time. Look, sometimes some creatures, we just

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_03]: take a long time to wake up in the morning and you know, you've got to have some coffee.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't give him his coffee. Think about it for a minute.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_00]: However, I will say there was something in one of the trailers that leads me to believe

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: that there is going to be, well, two things, there's going to be more active Balrog in

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_00]: this season. But I won't spoil any of them for those of you who have deliberately not watched

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_03]: teasers or trailers. And it's hard to know how much they got out over their skis a little

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_03]: bit in episode one. Some people might criticize them for doing some weird stuff. And then as we

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_03]: know, they did really season one. You mean season one, season one. And how much have they pulled

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_03]: back? So it was things that they might have opened up in season one. They might go, let's be a

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_03]: little bit more demure about that and very mindful. They are. I think they're being

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: very mindful about it. Very cutesy. All right. So what did you think?

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so I liked being back with the dwarves. I like our characters. The one thing that I

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_03]: felt a little bit, and it's fine. It was very gender normative though. It was very much like

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_03]: during the man and this is the woman. And then their whole conversation about their

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_03]: relationship and what's going on. And of course, they introduced the fact that,

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_03]: okay, you know, they're not, he's not a prince anymore, so he doesn't get to live off the state.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, they've got to make their own ways, which we see later on in the episode.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_03]: But this is a very, very human conversation. These are very human interactions. They're

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_03]: not dwarven interactions. We don't know what dwarvens would be like other than,

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_03]: but we're all writing and creating from a human centered. So any aliens that we see

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_03]: oftentimes in science fiction and fantasy are just echoes of humanity, right? Because how do

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_03]: you get out of your own mindset? It's nearly impossible. So it's fine. You know, you can

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_03]: lean one way or another, but I just felt that they leaned in a very human direction.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And this felt very normative in terms of cisgendered beings, you know, arguing over

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_03]: household domestic finances and relationship stuff. I'm not knocking it, but I'm just saying it just

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_03]: seemed to me like, we'll do something with dwarves a little bit, right? Tell me a dwarven story,

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_03]: not necessarily a human story. I think that's my point. Does that make sense?

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think Tolkien always explicitly wrote in a very shades of humanity.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Right? Like, I don't think he wanted them to seem alien. I think he wanted them to feel

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_02]: like a different kind of human.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: They're all children of a Lulutar, whether by choice or by adoption, as it says in that

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: chapter in Silmarillion. So, right.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know. There just wasn't enough dwarven spaces on.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, I get it. I see what you're saying. I didn't trouble me in the least.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: You want to make these some more beardy? Is that the problem?

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_03]: No. Oh, I'm glad. I actually, wait, don't box me into a corner here, man. You're

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_03]: in, like I said, I like the characters. I like the actors. I like the portrayals. I just, you know,

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_03]: the writing, the dynamic of the writing was just very like, I recognize that conversation.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure. Sure.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And it wasn't, it didn't, it didn't, it didn't show me anything new about dwarves.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_03]: It should, what I learned about dwarves was their amazing technology, which we knew about

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_03]: with the mirror system. And then we get to see a marketplace and what daily life is

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_03]: like for dwarves. That was all great, right? That's, that's bringing me into the world. And that's

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_03]: something they did, they showed something new and interesting with the mirrors and they made

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_03]: that a plot point. And I just thought the relationship was very mundane.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: We're also going to see a little later of dwarven culture that if you are an expert

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: in whatever craft it is, you can stand in front of the king and say, actually, no, we can't do

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_00]: this. And it doesn't matter if you're a Narvi or if you're a Disa,

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_00]: your knowledge is accepted and respected. Great. So,

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: so let's go back to the elves. Galadriel's vision is next. Galadriel pays respects to

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02]: her brother when Kaleb Rimbora arrives in the forest speaking of an unexpected visitor

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_02]: as the forest darkens. The vines ensnare Kaleb Rimbora who recites a poem

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_02]: of the rings in the black speech. Galadriel reawakens in a council meeting with Gilgallad,

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_02]: asking her advice to deal with Sauron. She agrees with the council that they should invade Mordor

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_02]: slash the Southlands. Gilgallad intuits that she has had a vision and she confesses that she

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_02]: still worries Sauron will turn to crafting more rings for domination with Kaleb Rimbora.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Gilgallad insists Kaleb Rimbora's knowledge is safe, but Galadriel sees Halbrann outside Oregion

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and continues to press Gilgallad and request to go there. Gilgallad worries about Sauron's influence

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02]: over Galadriel and forbids her from phasing him alone, but Galadriel has another plan.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So long seen, but why don't you start, David? You haven't started yet.

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_03]: David, one thing I hope they don't do and it's fine to use them using flashbacks and dreams.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I just want them to be careful about it. At first I was a little confused that I was like,

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_03]: what was this dream? Then suddenly it's a waking dream. It's like, okay, so we got Mouadib here

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_03]: having a waking dream because she's wearing the rings.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, but also he says later it's enhanced your power of foresight.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Right? So this is something in Galadriel. Exactly.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, interesting. Okay. That's a good point.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. And take the mirror of Galadriel, right?

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of that foresight going on with that character.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_03]: One of the things I do love about all of that we're seeing here

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_03]: is that it really makes everything that happens in Lord of the Rings.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm even more amped for rewatching or reengaging with that material to really

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_03]: understand. I'm like, oh, I get it now. I get why this is all going down. So it's very cool.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I liked this whole idea that the seeds that she's planted are the things that are

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_03]: causing problems. And of course we see Kelly Brimboer here getting crucified.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And I thought of you, Marilyn. I was like, well, he's on a tree and he's bleeding

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_03]: and he's got things. This is a crucifixion. And so I really like the visual imagery that

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_03]: they were using here, how evocative it was. Pretty rough.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, they are foreshadowing potentially the very gruesome and spoilers that Kelly Brimboer will

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: have that anybody who has read the books will know only too well. And I thought it was really

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_00]: quite brilliant how they did that. So hold on to this image for future episodes.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely hold on to this image. I loved that it started with another seed planting

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: from Memorium tying us back to Avarandir and to Adar. They were planting the seeds

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_00]: life and defiance of death right before battle. Here, Galatrilo's planting seeds

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: for Memorium. Supposedly to beautify and enhance this memorial to her brother and then it all turns

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_00]: horrible. I was really glad they gave this to us so early on because we saw most of this image in

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: the trailers. And I thought, what are they doing? Yeah, you could do anything in a vision, right?

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Right, but this is super. And there was even this sort of suggestion that

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_02]: we see Sauron sculpting Kelly Brimboer. Yeah, and himself being lost in Sauron's will, right?

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes. All those creepy vines again, the tentacle thing going toward him and just

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: overwhelming him. So I thought it was very, very powerful, very well done. And then to find out

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that this is her possible future vision or symbolic warning maybe if you will.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So no wonder she's so concerned about Kelly Brimboer. She would have been just anyway,

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_00]: but now I mean these things keep coming to her. So she knows that there's something

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_00]: there's something that needs to be addressed as soon as possible.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And I like that it's building the ring mythology that the rings are doing stuff to people.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_03]: You put this on and you get an instant reaction and the tree comes to life, right?

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_03]: They're powerful, but then they're affecting the wearer as well. And we know that from the Jackson

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_03]: movies and obviously the books where whenever Frodo puts on the ring or Bilbo talks about it,

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_03]: they talk about the effects of what the ring does to their physiology.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Which could be a little uncomfortable for people who want to hue close to the lore

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: because there was never a sense that the Elven rings had that kind of

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_02]: impact. Well, but there was a sense that had Sauron been able to use the one ring,

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_00]: he would have been able to adopt. Oh absolutely. There was clear there was a back door

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: in the Elven rings. But and maybe you could argue well it's because thousands of years have

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_00]: passed and they have grown into the ring and matured and know how they can use it.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Plus Sauron was again spoiler alert, but if you know Lord of the Rings, you know that Sauron

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: was kind of in deep freeze at this time. And so the rings were freed from his influence as much

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_00]: as they could be and they had more time to learn. But I have felt ambiguous about this from

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_00]: the beginning. Now when she first picks up her ring and puts it on, the sort of looks

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that they're having her give and and and of course Elrond's perpetual

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_00]: existence. Yeah, he's looking really unhappy. Resting Elf face. Well not exactly resting though,

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02]: is it? Problem. I mean I like it because when you look at the one ring and the different

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_02]: effects that it has on people, these rings really are about enhancing what is already present.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Right? That's correct. It's not about adding a new power, it's about enhancing what's already there.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It's about making Sam think he can have a giant garden. It's about letting Bilbo and Frodo who are

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_02]: already gridded hiding because their hobbits hide a little better, right? And so I think that it's

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_02]: completely reasonable to have Gladriot Hove enhanced foresight, to have the elves who have

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_02]: the light of the trees of Elinor within them be able to bring that light into the trees of Linden.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are some scenes, I can't remember exactly where it happens, one in particular,

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: actually it's shortly after something happens in this episode but further down

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: between Caleb Rimbour and Elrond that we see Gilgallad looking down at his ring.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: As if something has drawn his attention to it and then he shifts his hands and covers the ring

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_00]: with his other hand. It's a subtle thing but it's there and so I'm just wondering how many

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: messages are they sending out to us that I'm missing? Yeah. I mean we also have this whole

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: idea that Galadriel is not quite over her ex, right? And that's going to come up a couple times

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_02]: through this episode is, hey, Sauron didn't leave you. You are still under the influence of Sauron.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And she goes it? Yeah. Yeah and I like that we're seeing this transformation where she's been

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_02]: really cocky this whole time, right? And I think she was humbled at the end of last season

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_02]: by the way she was deceived and she's starting to be like, all right let me slow down a minute

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_00]: which is good. Yes and not make assumptions about how am I doing here? Of course we don't want to

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_00]: go in the other direction where she doesn't trust yourself at all. Again, trust. I mean this really

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: is to my mind it just keeps coming up again and again. I was thinking about something David said

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_02]: which was David you said we're going into Galadriel's master of deduction thing.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I've got in my notes here CSI Linden. But the problem is if you're a master at deduction and

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_02]: you're always looking for clues somebody can feed you clues and lead you down the path that they want

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_02]: so it cuts both ways. Yeah. Anyway, you were going to say something David? Yeah well I was actually

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_03]: going to bring up the CSI Linden thing and you know Galadriel's enhanced powers but then

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_03]: just going back to that conversation with the king with his little council meeting there.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Besides some of the more background maps there that was interesting one thing that I really liked

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_03]: is this may be more of a superficial thing is Galadriel as a general of the northern armies

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_03]: doesn't look like a general in our sense of a western you know big shoulder boards and a hat

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_03]: and lots of metals and stuff. She's wearing what Galadriel wears and she's a general and I'm like

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm down for that. I really appreciated the fact that they didn't they address her as general and

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_03]: you know she's accorded those you know that privilege and rank but then hey we don't need

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_03]: to have all of you know we don't need the not in camo. Yeah she's not in camo and doing the

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_03]: hardcore salute stuff and that so I just really appreciated the fact that they didn't the show

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_03]: runners didn't bend to that those sort of stereotypes. And we have another woman who is

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_00]: commander of another region. I think it was the south but I'm not sure that's true. Okay.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm also starting to notice more women in the ranks of the soldiery. Yes I noticed that too

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_03]: so it's good stuff. Aragion is protected 10 foot thick walls foreshadowing foreshadowing here

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_03]: come on yeah it was like like shine a big light oh and doesn't take an eye you know

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_03]: an eye of an eagle to know it's like oh we know where eagles are coming so

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_03]: they're they're they're having some fun with the writing here I think.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Hmm yeah shall we move on to Halbrand. Sure. A messenger asks Sauron Halbrand to leave

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: a Reggion but he refuses. Caleb Rimbourg insists on leaving him be even though he's injured.

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_02]: He says there will be a messenger from Lyndon any day but the scene cuts to the bodies of

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: the messengers and the crushed message. So sad. Not a lot here this is really also

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah well actually I do have. Okay. This is one that may kind of slide a little bit towards

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_03]: jazz handy because who took out the messengers. Oh yes I do have a note about that. If no

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_00]: messengers arriving who is that Sauron or Adar. Right if it was Sauron how did he know about

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_00]: them. Mm-hmm. And who did he have do it who does he have in his control right now that

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_00]: he can tell okay go do that I never thought it might be a door. But why would it be a door

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_03]: because why would he be trying to intercept messages between. Yeah there's also all the way to the

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_00]: east I just it's not yeah it just doesn't work it doesn't work but I don't think it was random

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_00]: robbers either because if it was and they wouldn't have killed the horses. They and they made

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_03]: it seem very gruesome with the chains and them dragging away codes very orc right.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure sure but we prefer Uruk. Uruk sorry. And which Uruk have decided that they're

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_03]: going to take orders from Sauron. Mm-hmm so yeah I think it's a very good question it's

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a it's a it's a little bit of a mystery. I wonder if they're gonna you know resolve it

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_00]: some day or if they just said all right it's enough that you guys know that the message

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_00]: never got there because the messengers got killed. But then there's another little subtle

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_03]: thing which is the way Sauron turns his back to show off his injuries. Oh yeah oh yeah.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Right he's being very tricksy. Yeah all part of the deception. Great and but in every interaction

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_03]: with with Halbrand, Sauron whatever there's always some very subtle manipulation some little when

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_03]: he's talking to the the Southlander or you know there's there's all these little manipulations

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_03]: and little sort of drawing out and little coy phrases and he knows how to reach into somebody

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and pluck their strings. And I think he probably called down the thunderstorm just in time to get

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_00]: soaking wet. Right yeah yeah. And play on Calibri Impaurs guilt still further. Really good point.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_03]: He does a lot of weatherworking in this in this episode. He's you know I was thinking of Sauron

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_03]: almost like a that we calling back to the previous scene you know once he's infected you it's

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_03]: like a bee sting the more that you have interaction with him you know the more

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_03]: times you get stung the worse and worse your reactions get over over time. Interesting.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_03]: It just sort of the way that he once he's got a hold on you you can't ever get it out or

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_03]: maybe it's like a jellyfish sting you can never get the thing out right it's going to be in there

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_02]: for a long time. I mean it's the way all cults work right is is they prey on the vulnerable

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_02]: they prey on people looking for answers and they give them to them. Well and they also

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_00]: prey upon being able to determine your particular characteristics and your weak points. Yeah.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And then explain I mean the whole thing from last season you know find out what they fear most

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_03]: and tell them how they can overcome it. Right but who doesn't have fears who doesn't have

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_03]: self-doubts who doesn't have well exact regrets and you know I wish I I wish I had or

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_03]: if only I had you know turned left instead of right sort of thing.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I think that's the point right is that's why nobody could have destroyed the ring it had to

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_03]: be an accident. Yeah. Yes that's really interesting. Tolkien made that clear in his letters and in

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_00]: various other places actually in one of the earliest manuscripts versions of Lord of the Rings

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00]: he has Frodo who is then got a different name Bingo say. Thank God he didn't do Bingo sorry just go

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_00]: ahead. Yeah he had him say I will take the ring although I am not sure I can destroy it.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So that idea was in Tolkien's mind very early on. Interesting. Yeah.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Well speaking of cults let's move on. Oh yes good segue.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Magic cult here in Rune a master writer travels towards magic cult headquarters there in Acolyte

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_02]: delivers moths that reform as the dweller a mysterious wizard like figure learns of

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Sauron's presence in Middle Earth and scolds the dweller for failing to capture the stranger.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_02]: The tracker arrives to offer his services capturing the is star.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I was just the whole watching this whole scene and I'm just like OK Marilyn like what do you

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_03]: got here. Let's talk there things to talk about I mean is it is it Syrian Heinz the actor

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Kieran Kieran Heinz that's what it is I couldn't remember what it was great to see him again

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_03]: so cool and is I think John you thought you said that you thought he might be a blue wizard

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh he's blue. Okay yes he's blue if he's not blue I'll be shocked. Yeah me too me too and it also

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to my mind reinforces my case that the stranger is also a blue. So how many blues were there

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_03]: just two. Okay so this could work out really nicely. I really I'm I am more encouraged even with

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_00]: knowing already that Corey Olson is on my side I really very encouraged by this whole thing.

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah I love that we have the you know the Rooney Korsman music is Irish Desert with Bedouin drumming

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a real nice lick very energetic and they use it for the end credits

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_00]: with women's chorus that sounds a lot like Bulgarian singing so I mean there is really

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_00]: going for the multi ethnic mix here. It's a lot of fun. So yeah we have the blood ritual

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: to re-embodied the water. Literal blood magic. Literal blood magic and you know that is a

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_00]: clear sign of Goetia this manipulative dominating form of magic and I like that we now have a name

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_00]: for them the white wings. Mm-hmm. You know when he's saying you know was it worth expending

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_00]: the blood for you white wings to reconstitute given all your failures. We only see one

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_03]: reconstituted as well. Yes isn't that interesting. Three jars were brought in.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm pretty sure three jars were brought in but only we only see the one being opened.

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But the other thing is this is the first time we've heard that one speak.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay for all season one the dweller never said a word. Huh. And now the dweller is being

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_00]: called upon to presumably report for all three of them. Interesting. So yeah I was

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I was very interested in that. I think they couldn't afford the casting but that's okay.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Well or are they you know a lot of the moths got eaten on the way who knows.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I was interested that the staff that the wizard is carrying has a headpiece that looks very much

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_00]: like a flattened version of a Nile Goddess statue. Mm-hmm. So again we're going to

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_00]: desert community. Okay. Desert climb. It's a classic pose with you know the arms over the head kind of

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_00]: thing. With a big gem in the middle of it. Right so obviously they're not doing a one to one

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_00]: correspondence here and there's nothing feminine looking about this particular form.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But the raised arms curved over the head

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: very much said you can Google Nile Goddess statue and you'll come up with images of what

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm talking about here. And I found it interesting that the men agreed to work for the evil wizard

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_00]: so that he will heal the people's skin disease and I'm wondering if they're signaling leprosy here.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm. Because again according to some historical interpretations it was the crusaders

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_00]: who went to the east who brought back leprosy to western Europe. Now I don't know if that's

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_00]: accurate or not but that's been one of the stories that has been spread so they're using lots of different

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_00]: contemporary cultural images to reinforce this notion of the desert community without using

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_00]: any one particular desert culture. Mm-hmm. So I find that all of that interesting. It's

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_03]: got to be hot under those masks. Yeah but you save a lot on sunscreen. Yeah you do,

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_03]: you do. But you're right the masks don't coat like I didn't recognize those. No. Those seemed very

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_00]: holy you know quote unquote original. Quite original and if that was John Howe my goodness

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_00]: he's just continuing to come forth with new wonderful ideas it's great. I just googled

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_03]: for Nile Goddess statue. Uh-huh. And yeah boom the curved raised it's like right there

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_00]: it's so clear. Whereas the previous season we saw the staff and what was on top looked very much like

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_00]: ISIS, the typical thing associated with ISIS so we seem to be going with these

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Egyptian deities. So how what can we safely talk about in terms of staff lore like this

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_03]: staff with this you know these raised arms or the the gem the strangers constantly looking for

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_03]: this power up staff that he sees in his dream and he thinks he gets one in this episode but it

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_03]: doesn't last, it doesn't work and obviously we have you know in the in the I'm just going to

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_03]: reference the movies you know with Sauerbahn and Gandolf and you know using their staffs what can

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_00]: we safely talk about about staff lore? Well it was the Egyptian magical tradition that first gave

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_00]: us staffs as far as I know. If you think about the the story of Moses and how he was contesting with

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_00]: the Egyptian magicians and they would you know have their staffs and they throw them on the ground

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and they turn into snakes and then they pick them up and they turn back to staffs. Okay. And

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Moses doing similar kind of kind of magic and his overpowered the others because his source

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_00]: was Yahweh and that idea of a magician needing a staff kind of got transferred into the major text

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_00]: the Hermesities trade meghestis I probably didn't say that correctly. It's basically

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_00]: a manual of magic that came from the Egyptian version of

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_00]: the Greek and Roman Hermes Mercury god and it was all about magic. Thoth was the name of the Egyptian god

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_00]: so it was the book of Thoth was another name for it and it just had you know these systems

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_00]: spells and gestures and here's how you do stuff and so forth and that got transferred into

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Western Europe through alchemy because alchemy was a system of magic which got really popular in many

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_00]: different places throughout Europe and the Middle East they attempt to change lead into gold.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Right, right, right. And so as a process of that you have these other concepts and systems

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_00]: coming in with this book of Thoth and so you eventually things like wizards have to have

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_00]: staffs or at least wands become embedded in Western oceans of okay so how do I know if it's a magic user

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_03]: or not? Right and obviously wands have now been even more enculturated following the Harry Potter

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_03]: material. Yeah, I just have that going back to the ancient Egyptian and Hebrew history I just

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_03]: have Charlton Heston with his staff right and that's burned in now to my synapses.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_00]: For many people it is supposed to be a tool through which you can channel your power

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and we'll see that in a subsequent scene with this episode and you also see how well

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_00]: the magician is able of controlling that power channeling it and so the staff is supposed

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_03]: to help you with that according to some system. And then that's even in terms of the spread of

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_03]: that idea even all the way out into our role playing games with Dungeons and Dragons and having

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_03]: magic users often times need a spell, a focus to channel their energies or a thing to some

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of talisman or something. And practicing wickens and pagans and so forth many of them will

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_00]: use staffs, many of them use wands, many of them say it's not the tool, it's the mind that's important

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_00]: you know you can use your finger as a wand if you need to direct energy somewhere.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a whole range of beliefs about that. The druids of course the druid staff

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_00]: is an image that many people think of. Right right so it really was a very very widespread

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_03]: so in image Tolkien's magic systems then it's a focus for the Astari then to

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_00]: channel their energy. Yes yeah that seems to be how they use it and you know if you think of

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Gandalf battling the Balrog and his almost his final act as Gandalf the Grey was to

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_02]: smote the bridge with his staff. Right right you wouldn't begrudge an old man his walking

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly exactly. Jackson makes good play of that doesn't he?

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And Saruman I think had a gem in his like an opalescent sort of stone in his staff.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_00]: He did. Where Gandalf I don't think did. No his Gandalf's staff was a lovely

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_00]: rooted kind of a root sort of a root knot yeah which if you looked at it could suggest the

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Elvish rune frugi which was a very clever design feature. Also Saruman is a Maya who was from the

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Vala Owlay the Scything Vala Gandalf is from Manway. Good and the fact that you with your

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_03]: skills there John I'm here all night. He's doing it he's doing it. Yeah he's good.

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Saruman's staff as represented by Peter Jackson in a very clever way was not a natural substance

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_00]: it was iron or looked like iron and it had the pinnacles like or think pinnacles and

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_00]: what was within and I'm not even sure it was a gemstone per se it looked more like a smoky

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_03]: globe. Right I was thinking in an opal some opalescent. Yeah I think it my thought was some kind of glass

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_00]: but very smoothy. Also suggests of course the Palin here. Yes that too so. All right any other

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_03]: thoughts on this scene? Interesting design in the temple I don't know where they made that up from

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_00]: but that's very Middle Eastern okay very Middle Eastern reminded me of bits of Crete and of Greece.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_03]: You got all that some heat management stuff you know high ceilings

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_03]: that at all works in that kind of stuff but I think you have a note here which I also had

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_03]: a thought of what was that growl at the end of the scene when he threatens the

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_03]: or was that my note maybe that was my note you know that is my note I just

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_03]: didn't bullet point it in the same way there was a growl at the end when he threatens the

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_03]: the dweller and it sounded like the ward from episode one. Oh interesting.

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Interesting but no monster appears and that's right when a servant says hey you know the

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_02]: tracker the trackers are here. Okay interesting. Yeah and just to be clear for listeners the

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_02]: blue wizards were referencing our two other Istari they are two other wizards of the same

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_02]: class of Maiar which we'll get into in our lore cast of the same class of Maiar as the stranger

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and there's really they kind of come to Middle Earth and then they just nope out they just

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of disappear and they're it's very vague in the writings of what happened to them

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_02]: but one of the theories that Tolkien posited because he would theorize about his own work

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_02]: as if he didn't write it one of the theories that he posited was they went to rune and

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_02]: at least one of them started magic cults right and so here we are we've got a magic cult we've

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_02]: got a wizard looking guy if that's not a blue wizard come on what are we doing here exactly yeah

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah they're really wasting a lot of good lore if it's not a blue wizard yeah as well as an actor

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_03]: and he talks very authoritatively like you're gonna go up against an Istari you know tracker dude

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_02]: no way he's gonna smoke you you're gonna fight me yeah you're gonna fight somebody my age my power

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah yeah which of course is interesting because at this point Kyrgyzstan the blue wizard has no notion

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_00]: of um the stranger's ability and the fact that he has enormous power but he has yet to have control

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_00]: as well right and they know that though well they learn it in a subsequent scene this episode

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_03]: don't they he says he says we've got a he says to the dweller uh you know we've got to find

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_03]: him before he he figures out how to harness his power that's true that's true yes so yeah so that means

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_03]: that's I think it's further it's it's good another good pointer to the fact that he might have himself

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_03]: gone through that so he knows what the stranger is going through oh good catch david yeah I like that

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I like that a lot okay all right let's take a quick break before we get back to the show

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and we're back to talk about the stranger's name nori attempts to name the stranger but he says your

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: name is who you are not something given to you also gege said that too no i'm just kidding yeah

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_02]: poppy proud fellow say bigger see uh yeah vibes all over this i'm leo pointing at the screen

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Ian a poppy proud fellow attempts to find a shortcut but the stranger worries about resource

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_02]: management because he is a dnd expert like david the trackers almost find them before the group

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_02]: hides when the tracker leaves the trio finds a new trail i'm all about humor tonight yes yeah you're

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_03]: good you're good uh big big time um big time ursi vibes here uh you'll you'll feel your heart glow when

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_02]: which is kind of funny is that is that talking ask because that's not something that's always

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_02]: stuck out to me in talking right is uh you know gandalf has himself has if this is gandalf

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_02]: if the stranger is gandalf which we don't know yet gandalf himself is mithrandir is gandalf is uh

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_02]: olorin like has many names and still answers to them all and seems to welcome them all i i don't

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_00]: know if that feels very polka anesthemy no because talking wanted to invent all of his own

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_00]: names himself exactly everyone had like five names in tolkin yeah at least i mean just

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_00]: consider that the elves themselves had you know at least two major languages right you have

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_00]: a name yeah and in families you were given a mother name you're given a father name maybe

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_00]: you got a third name when you found out who you really were but maybe that's the thing

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_02]: that they were pointing back to get ursela went out of the writing stack i mean come on

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_03]: come on here what um what do you guys make of the fact that

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_03]: uh nuori seems to forget that she said dodrick earlier because you know she said you know she

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_03]: she suggests the name they're talking all the stuff happens and at the end

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_03]: she says what about dodrick and they say well you already suggested that she goes i did

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_03]: and she seems to be afflicted with some sort of memory thing and i i i just took it as like

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_02]: she's going through the list and she repeated one already because she's just keeping going

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_03]: through the list of hard foots but they did they dedicated several lines to that and and

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_03]: and it made a point in it and you don't need to they've already showing us that they're

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_03]: suffering from heat exhaustion in other ways so it didn't make sense to me it it it seems to me

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_03]: like that that might be an opening for something else going on with nuori i thought it was a

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_00]: response to i can't remember what it was they had just realized or discovered but

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_00]: she and poppy were looking ahead on the trail possibly were cutting across making a decision

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_00]: about something and i think maybe that was distracting nori because she was you know

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_00]: considering the deeper implications of do we really know which is the best way to go right

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_03]: and now they're gonna have to go the way that they think it's going to be harder to avoid the

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_03]: right the baddies so right uh hardfoot hiding skills in our well-practiced wasn't that great how

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_00]: they you know they showed them doing their thing and the stranger is bundling things up and looks

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_02]: around and they're gone they're gone yeah this was actually now i'm going to be the one pushing

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_02]: back this was actually the one peter jackson esque reference that i didn't like uh-huh it was

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_02]: fine fine yeah i totally got that sorry i'm not getting it like when when the the shire four are

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_00]: hiding under oh okay i'm with you know under the little cliff absolutely absolutely yes and all the

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_03]: bugs and centipedes and stuff start to crawl right right right so instead of roots we have

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_00]: there the webbed cover that they use yeah and then we have the snake menacing them so

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_03]: it didn't take me out john but i totally could see it i don't disagree with you in terms of yeah that

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_02]: was the one that's been like too much too much well clearly it didn't take me out so

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_02]: i was too busy focusing on other things i guess yeah well i guess later on we'll see how that

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_02]: resource management goes but for now let's go to more resource management the dwarven food shortage

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_02]: the dwarves of kazadum worry about their withering crops with a lack of sunlight

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_02]: disa brings her stone singers to doran three to find a path to dig new sunshafts however they

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_02]: fail to do so we also meet narvi a close confidant of doran the third and doran tries to ask about

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_00]: his son but disa turns it around on him yeah that's called triangulation sire i refuse to

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_03]: participate in it this was the one scene that was for me there's a little bit too much exposition in

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_03]: this the the you know disa talking with her her um two other stone singers and then the oh well

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_03]: yes sire a you know volcano this was just a big exposition dump and sort of syncing up the gears

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_03]: a little bit um and yeah then the whole again just the same vibe that i had before and i don't mean to

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_03]: be a downer but the whole family dynamic thing with the the proud you know whatever they just felt very

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_03]: human to me and not dwarven but again that might be a me thing so anyway i felt that we're

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_00]: dwarven because we were hearing about we were seeing how dwarves functioned together we were hearing

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_00]: about dwarven approaches to things like engineering and and digging in and management and so forth

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_03]: right right right i suppose that was there i probably was paying attention to the other stuff

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and not that so but also seeing how um this particular dorven king um interacts with

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_00]: his subjects some with his subjects and in particular with someone like disa

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_00]: i think has his respect for her skills maybe even before oh yes you're also my son's wife

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and so that's nice to see the the uh you know if you're talking about gender gender equality

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_00]: that our best stone singers tell us you know well that's huge right right think of all the

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_00]: stone metaphors that the dwarven language contains if these are your best stone singers

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_03]: that means something that's a good point yeah that's a good point yeah and that and that i the

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_03]: he was looking very kingly there too that was a great some good visuals and that

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_03]: but the fact that you know hey you're the expert stone singer and you want to do this thing

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_03]: cool do that thing because you are the top stone singer so i'm just the king what am i

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_03]: what do i know about stone singing you know about stone singing do the stone singing and then

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_00]: he comes off of his throne and he gets down to disa's level and that's when he starts talking about

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_02]: relationship stuff yeah right yeah taking off his king hat and also his grandpa hat

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_00]: can i just say when disa says we can't hear the mountain anymore uh that was terrifying

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_02]: hmm and you have to wonder if that's something put there by a certain myar

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_00]: well that's the thing john throughout this whole episode every time something goes wrong

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_00]: you're beginning to what was it sarah i mean you're seeing sad on in your own shadow

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_02]: i just hope they don't overdo that well but but i think it's good that they're not making it

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_00]: explicit right that it is of course yes yes yes let us keep our let us keep our minds

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: clear and recognize that there are other forces in the world besides saudan and sometimes you know

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_03]: an earthquake is just an earthquake right but later in the episode the way that the whole

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_03]: the whole thing with they can't hear the mountain the way that it's it's reading for me

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_03]: is that so the king disowns his son the prince that's a schism within dwarf society

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_03]: and that schism is having effects on beyond and then you throw in an active volcano

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_03]: and they're they're all out of whack like the whole dwarven balance is is um destabilized

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_03]: i like that and and the the fact that they can't hear the mountain singing has to do with the fact

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_03]: that the son the king and his son are are having a schism and if you could heal that

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_03]: then maybe they could hear the mountain again wow i really like that yeah really great theory

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_03]: i'm liking it okay it seemed pretty obvious to me so i don't know i was just like god

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_03]: this seems like a simple simplistic plot but if you guys think it's good that's why we have

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_02]: fair enough all right well we have a little bit more dwarven stuff to get through sorry david and

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_02]: uh i call it every man doran four doran four just tries to go to work but is bullied by his

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: co-workers arriving home disa tries to impress the seriousness of the situation upon him

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_02]: i just feel badly for the guy mm-hmm yeah yeah i was i was listening to a podcast recently about

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_02]: royals particularly uh queens of history catheter in the great uh talking about maria and tunette

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're talking about how like nobody is actually built to be a royal and it's a job that

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_02]: you're born into and you can't get out of mm-hmm and it's just a weird job and here we are i mean

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_02]: we see it in modern day too right with like prince harry and meghan marco they try to

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_02]: they try to get out of being royals and they're just harassed still and and it's just a tough

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_02]: thing like it's yeah they are awarded immense privilege but they're also trapped in this idea of

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: fame and i think doran three can't live sorry doran four can't live a normal life even if he chooses to

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_03]: now yeah you're born into it or you marry into it yeah so john i know that you'll probably never

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_03]: get around to watching the crown but i'm going to have you put it on your uh your ever expanding

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_03]: list it's like uh karkamukeruk or whatever the guy in uh or see who's got the list kurokora thank you

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_03]: who has just endless lists of things it's i feel like that's our our two watch list it just never

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: ends you know i'm more interested now than i've been in the past i just listened to a four part

[01:03:26] [SPEAKER_02]: series five part series on princess diana a podcast series on princess diana oh oh this is

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_02]: interesting i i actually maybe i'll watch the crown one day so i thought it was excellent

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_03]: the the the latter seasons i didn't have as much once i got up into a more modern age i got i sort of

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_03]: lost interest in it the but the very first two or three seasons are phenomenal the acting is

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_03]: superb the story construction got matt smith mm-hmm and it goes right into this thing of

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_03]: hey i'm just a kid and we live in a cool castle and oh shit i'm now the you know i'm now the titular

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_03]: head of this country what does that mean how do i deal with this how does this affect my marriage

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_03]: how does this affect the fact that i'm having a family all of this stuff and they really grapple

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_03]: with it i think really well in the in the early seasons and how can i possibly meet everybody's

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: expectations mm-hmm because often they contradict one another very good point in how i'm going to

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: embody this role yeah no i think it's an excellent series there's there are historical inaccuracies

[01:04:37] [SPEAKER_03]: they do play around for their own purposes just sure but then take it as a as a fictional work

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_03]: right you know or as is the best of that kind of fictional work and i would have loved to

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_00]: have taught a class in which i had students watch the episodes and then say okay go fact

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_00]: check these and then we'll come back and talk about that would have been fun to be honest with me

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: do they rightfully portray charles's affair with camilla when they get to the diana stuff because

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: yes he got he got so much of a pass for how he acted anyway all right all right all right

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_00]: wrong podcast wrong podcast podcast here already folks you heard it here first let's let's go

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: let's move on let's move on galadriel's please next galadriel tells elrond she's worried about

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: sarron's pursuit of kelo brimboar she asks him to accompany her to oregion but he is hesitant

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_02]: after seeing galadriel's deception under sarron elrond believes all the elves are falling

[01:05:36] [SPEAKER_02]: under his deception so this had i think some of the most interesting dialogue of the whole

[01:05:44] [SPEAKER_03]: episode what would you all think elrond is just going hard here he was so if you have any

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_02]: respect for her friendship leave now like i know and my favorite line was he says why would he not

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_02]: want you to go to oregion alone she goes because he thinks i'm still under uh or i know she says

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_02]: you know why and he goes i'm asking if you know why that was such a great that was like oh you

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_00]: are in detention right now you know what you did wrong he was hard he just and i think part of that

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_00]: comes from the fact that it's breaking his heart that he has to be this way because this is his

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_03]: dearest friend but do jump off a cliff to keep rings out of the hands of his king who gave him a

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_00]: direct order to give him the the things yeah and yet the king accepts him back right tell us

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: about the quality of the king which i think is the answer to that is good right you want to foster

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_00]: dissent if you are a good king you do right you want to hear from all all opinions not just your

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_03]: own or people who are going to support you and this description of sarron here is this somebody

[01:07:02] [SPEAKER_03]: who can look inside you and pluck your notes and the labyrinth is his and if you're in it

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_03]: you've already lost like all of that was just great lore work around and if it didn't start to

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_03]: crystallize already for you in this season then like go back and watch episode one again and just

[01:07:21] [SPEAKER_03]: see the subtle manipulations that hall brand a case alron is doing because there's so many little

[01:07:27] [SPEAKER_03]: things you mean season one no episode one oh absolutely like even just go back to episode one

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_03]: and you can see him manipulating adar and you know and all of the stuff so it's just it was such a

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_03]: great counter note counterpoint note to what we're seeing with salron so here's a question for you

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: how does alron know all this that is a good question where does he get all of this knowledge

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_03]: and where did gill gallad get some of that lore knowledge as well like they they know they both

[01:07:59] [SPEAKER_03]: know stuff that galadriel doesn't know about sarron and she's the one that's been hunting him for so long

[01:08:04] [SPEAKER_00]: yes but gill gallad is okay than right now he's older than elrond he is the same age as galadriel

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: but the showrunner seemed to be giving us a younger galadriel yeah i don't understand that but

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: um i well i kind of do understand it right they want to they want to give us a reason

[01:08:20] [SPEAKER_02]: for galadriel to be suspicious of sarron going forward uh well he already has

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: anatar going forward rather but i i think um elrond has always been a master of lore right

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_02]: that's been his whole thing he is a good and he has been studying under gill gallad he studied

[01:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: under you know he was fostered by the sons of fan or i think he he definitely has had

[01:08:48] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of exposure to the like the high lore in a way where i think galadriel has been more

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_02]: relational right galadriel spent a lot of time with melian and a lot of time yeah sort of honing her

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: senses but not necessarily her knowledge of lore and i guess show galadriel has been fighting a

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: long time right not not knows in a book but instead on the field yeah so they have just

[01:09:15] [SPEAKER_02]: had different you know she says you're just a politician okay but he's been in a book for this

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: whole time right like he has studied what happened and he saw firsthand the destruction of of a

[01:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: lot of realms in the first age that's a good point yeah because she's out leading elf team six

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_03]: hunting oh some have been sarron uh oh my gosh sorry i got too far with that one

[01:09:39] [SPEAKER_00]: very good very good five points to your house

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_00]: to mix metaphors and world entirely in the lore um elrond is also had some experience with kyridon

[01:09:52] [SPEAKER_00]: at some point i'm forgetting exactly the details of after which disaster he was associated with

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_00]: kyridon for a short time and then his parents all went to do or you know some real business it was after

[01:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: randiel had already gone and the sons of fanor descended upon their group and that was the third

[01:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: kin slaying and you know that was the time when alrond was with the two oldest sons of fanor

[01:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: etc etc but kyridon does come in there at some point stop slaying we've had enough of it

[01:10:29] [SPEAKER_00]: seriously seriously but see none of this has anything to do with sarron so that's why

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: you know he seems to have sarron specific language and knowledge and i'm just wondering

[01:10:42] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a good question it's convenient for the show obviously but um you know i guess we just have

[01:10:48] [SPEAKER_02]: to make our own hand i mean sarron was openly the chief lieutenant of morgoth right so i think

[01:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: that the the whole middle of middle earth would have known of him and i and i don't think galadriel

[01:11:00] [SPEAKER_02]: was missing information that sarron was great at deception it's just that she didn't know that

[01:11:05] [SPEAKER_02]: that was sarron she didn't realize she was falling under it right but then he calls her out for the

[01:11:10] [SPEAKER_03]: fact that he played you because you're so single focus you know the flaws that you you know we all

[01:11:18] [SPEAKER_03]: carry flaws he got yours and he plucked them like a string you know like strings uh yeah

[01:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and i but i also think if elron were really desperate for something then sarron would have

[01:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: done the same to him i don't think this is a knowledge that i think this is just yeah sarron

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: is better than you he is stronger than you he is i literally a holy being which is why

[01:11:39] [SPEAKER_03]: elron wants nothing to do with the rings because the moment you even even trying to

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_03]: reject the rings you're playing into his hand right you know that the game is is sarrons and

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and can you get outside the game and this is much more uh potent than it is in the lore itself

[01:11:58] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah that the idea that these rings are so closely bound with sarron um the only reason

[01:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: why it was really a problem was when once sarron had forged the one ring which could overpower

[01:12:11] [SPEAKER_00]: the elven rings prior to that it was a very different sense but i also think we we haven't

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: been explicitly told that sarron has current influence over the rings we've just been told

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: that the elves are worried that that might be the case yes which is a reasonable fear i think right

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_00]: he told you how to make these at the same time this could be the elves doing sarron's work for him

[01:12:34] [SPEAKER_03]: right right well i mean that starts to blend into the next conversation with kiridan and about

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_03]: you know yes the you know is is beauty no less beautiful even though the hand of the creator is

[01:12:49] [SPEAKER_02]: you know yeah well let's go there let's go yeah so elron seeks the advice of kiridan who tells elron

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that the flaws of the creator do not lessen the work using rumiel and diarone as examples

[01:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: which i i was like wait a minute we are doing deep polls here we'll talk about this in a minute

[01:13:08] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah he calls humility the truest form of sight and insists elron judged the work not the creator

[01:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: kiridan tells elron to consider the ways they can use the rings for good and keep them away from sarron

[01:13:22] [SPEAKER_03]: so much going on in this conversation yeah this is my favorite scene yeah hands down these two

[01:13:27] [SPEAKER_03]: back-to-back really play well with each other play off each other well and wow wasn't i thinking

[01:13:32] [SPEAKER_00]: of cancel culture mm-hmm yeah when i heard kiridan say judge the work and lead the judgment of the

[01:13:38] [SPEAKER_00]: one who brought it to the one who sees all things it's interesting right because i i have this

[01:13:45] [SPEAKER_02]: thought myself sometimes um you know we recently had the allegations come out against neil gayman

[01:13:51] [SPEAKER_02]: right that he um sexually assaulted some people um and i i love a lot of neil gayman's work

[01:13:59] [SPEAKER_03]: we talked about it on foundation with azimov he was very handsy right as they used to say right

[01:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: right and the question is can we permit ourselves to support the work of someone who has done

[01:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: awful things and i think it's easier if they're already dead yeah i agree yeah because you know

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not financially benefiting them right and that i think that's the hook for a lot of people

[01:14:28] [SPEAKER_00]: it goes beyond finance i mean that seems to be one of the memory it seems to be a simple way to okay

[01:14:36] [SPEAKER_00]: you did this terrible thing i am going to punish you quote unquote by refusing to give you money well

[01:14:42] [SPEAKER_00]: guess what presumably if they're so famous for work they've already got a fair bit of right right

[01:14:48] [SPEAKER_00]: right fair enough and so how is that are you hurting yourself more than your person yeah i

[01:14:54] [SPEAKER_02]: think in some other ways it's about giving people oxygen in the conversation right giving people

[01:14:59] [SPEAKER_00]: room exactly let's just not even talk about them but then when we go to even a further extreme like

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_03]: a bill cosby or uh oj simpson uh and i recognize that i'm i'm identifying two uh african-american

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_03]: men and i don't want to talk about harvey winstein you know harvey winstein thank you they

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah there you go perfect rickard vagner rickard vader perfect there you go hundreds of years dead

[01:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: you could go on a large of a human being anti-semitic to the health right the most beautiful operatic

[01:15:30] [SPEAKER_03]: music i will ever hear in all likelihood so so and i was just thinking with like with winstein and

[01:15:37] [SPEAKER_03]: and uh say cosby um like horrible horrible stuff you know alive winstein's hard because yeah it's

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_03]: tough right with winstein because he produced so many great movies right and bill cosby was a guy

[01:15:52] [SPEAKER_03]: i grew up watching you know with uh you know on cartoons and i know i used to watch him at four

[01:15:58] [SPEAKER_03]: am when i couldn't sleep i used to watch the cover show yeah i mean he made us laugh and and his

[01:16:04] [SPEAKER_03]: comedy he has some brilliant comedy uh so yeah i don't know it's really it's a really hard thing

[01:16:11] [SPEAKER_03]: to separate it's it's one thing if you're kind of icky you know but it's another thing when you're

[01:16:17] [SPEAKER_03]: actually assaulting people yeah and and and drugging people and this kind of stuff like that like

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_03]: i don't know it's it's a really confusing i mean it's not confusing but it's confusing in how

[01:16:29] [SPEAKER_00]: we relate to their work right which is so talking about but what keo dan is saying to us is leave

[01:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: the judgment of the person to someone else of course if you don't believe into someone else who has

[01:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: wise judgment that might be problematic but he also says this kind of vision is called humility

[01:16:48] [SPEAKER_00]: right and it is difficult for most but it is also the truest form of sight yeah now whether you

[01:16:56] [SPEAKER_00]: interpret this as well there but for grace go i or you recognize that you know the the uh lotus

[01:17:05] [SPEAKER_00]: grows from the stinky mud um it's it's hard because we we want to be the judge we want to

[01:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: administer punishment because it gives us a feeling of of control in some fashion

[01:17:25] [SPEAKER_03]: you know well if you do this then i can do that but you see it all the time with kids

[01:17:30] [SPEAKER_03]: you know absolutely little kids like you get one kid hits another kid the other kid

[01:17:35] [SPEAKER_03]: where they do they hit them right back it's almost but what is it doing to you yourself right right

[01:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: to to hit another person and say there that that makes it okay why does it feels good yeah it's like

[01:17:47] [SPEAKER_02]: pow it feels it's wonderful yeah but i do think we've hit an interesting point here of okay it's

[01:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: very different to compare someone who is annoying to somebody who is doing hard things like a

[01:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Harvey Weinstein a predator right a predator that's a very important for it um and and i almost feel like

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_02]: kyrdon is being a little unfair to elrond here he's saying oh day dieter on was insufferable

[01:18:17] [SPEAKER_02]: but that's not saying he's a villain that's saying he was annoying well i think it's the first level

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_00]: i think he uses it to get out okay attention and he gets elrond's attention clearly elrond had this

[01:18:31] [SPEAKER_00]: marvelous notion of dieter on and kyrdon said oh he was a drunk and you could see the shot

[01:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: that was room ill he said right oh sorry room ill room ill room was the drunk and you can see

[01:18:41] [SPEAKER_00]: the shock but that moment is shock is where new information can get in because you are suddenly

[01:18:47] [SPEAKER_02]: realizing okay maybe i don't know at all but i but i think that the way he's being a little unfair

[01:18:53] [SPEAKER_02]: is saying like oh well you like these poems of this guy who had an alcohol problem well that

[01:18:58] [SPEAKER_02]: means you have to accept the works of a genocidal maniac named saura you know what i mean like it's

[01:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: a little a little apples and oranges i think i think i think we can have more nuance than that

[01:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah and he goes on to have that nuance by saying you are wise to fear the power yeah yeah this power

[01:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: to influence so many because domination is definitely not the basis of eru's plan domination is the

[01:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: opposite of free will so you can't let that blind you to the ways that it can be used for good

[01:19:32] [SPEAKER_00]: you know tools can be neutral now can rings that were made possibly influenced by notions

[01:19:41] [SPEAKER_00]: of saura and be neutral that's something that i think that right they're exploring in this series

[01:19:46] [SPEAKER_03]: and my mind immediately went to you know uh the conversation around heresema and the dropping

[01:19:53] [SPEAKER_03]: of the atomic bomb oh yeah yeah and we were talking about that relative to house of the dragon and

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_03]: this last season where we had you know using a dragons are in effect a kind of nuclear weapon

[01:20:06] [SPEAKER_03]: and and using that power and so it's a really slippery slope to like can you use this tool

[01:20:14] [SPEAKER_03]: and there's a concept which i'm not well versed in but i i'm aware of it which is called the

[01:20:19] [SPEAKER_03]: tools of the master right i mean do you take um uh you know with people who you know enslaved people in

[01:20:26] [SPEAKER_03]: the in in the american history one of the fears i think of people is is like well if if african-americans

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_03]: suddenly get power they're gonna do us like they did to us but then there's a very there's an

[01:20:37] [SPEAKER_03]: important check there which is we can't do that because that's tools of the master that makes

[01:20:41] [SPEAKER_03]: us know better than who who they were to us and we have to be beyond that if we're going to

[01:20:48] [SPEAKER_03]: live and thrive and so if you use power this kind of power now kirdan is an elf who's very old and

[01:20:56] [SPEAKER_03]: very wise and he's a of a particular thing can he use this power he feels like he's confident enough

[01:21:02] [SPEAKER_03]: to to to hold on to this power and use it wisely but men are corruptible right and i think isn't

[01:21:09] [SPEAKER_03]: that line even thrown out somewhere kello put in board says that later on in the episode now

[01:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah yeah yeah yeah that's um audrey lord the master's tools can never dismantle the master's house

[01:21:20] [SPEAKER_03]: okay yeah right that's where that comes i think it's a really powerful concept and i first came

[01:21:24] [SPEAKER_03]: around to it in um oh what was the uh television show i have to think about it again but i'll

[01:21:31] [SPEAKER_03]: let me google it real quick and um sure oh it was it was the oh it was the cthulhu one with

[01:21:38] [SPEAKER_03]: um anyway i'll think of it keep oh the lovecraft country yes love country thank you yeah lovecraft

[01:21:45] [SPEAKER_03]: country that's when i sort of first became aware of that that concept in that term

[01:21:49] [SPEAKER_03]: and i think it's really i think it's a really interest i think it's an important thing to

[01:21:54] [SPEAKER_00]: understand and think about yeah and this the final part of kirdan's conversation with alran

[01:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: it is not your enemies who have the rings but your most trusted friends

[01:22:04] [SPEAKER_00]: mm don't abandon them open your eyes and guide them and i think this is addressing

[01:22:11] [SPEAKER_00]: elrond's hurt yes these are his most trusted friends why don't they agree with him yeah

[01:22:19] [SPEAKER_00]: i think that's what's eating at him as much as anything else mm yeah how can we have such

[01:22:26] [SPEAKER_00]: opposite views of this when we're such good friends and we agree on so many things and all

[01:22:32] [SPEAKER_00]: of a sudden it's it's harder when our dearest friends disagree with us than someone i don't even know

[01:22:38] [SPEAKER_02]: right like obviously sarron disagrees with you when you we don't have to worry about that no no

[01:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: don't waste any time on that one but open your eyes and guide them you have this privilege of

[01:22:51] [SPEAKER_00]: being their friend so who else would you want to have guiding you or you know giving you

[01:22:59] [SPEAKER_00]: these alternative suggestions and so forth then friends who you have trusted all your life

[01:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: i think that's what's more startling to me than anything that switch was very hard for me that

[01:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: the flip i mean at the very end of season when we did see elrond looking at galavadril with a

[01:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: very hard look mm-hmm and that's all we got the next thing we know galavadril is chasing

[01:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: after elrond saying stop stop stop you know there was some stuff in there that he might have

[01:23:29] [SPEAKER_02]: benefited from seeing but well but but i think elrond kind of says it all in their conversation

[01:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: in the previous scene which is you know she goes we made these say that she goes no you

[01:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: you made that choice for us by withholding information you didn't give me the free will

[01:23:46] [SPEAKER_00]: to make my own choice here yeah no that that is an excellent point it may also be that elrond

[01:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: is feeling guilt for his own participation because it was his myth thrill that paid the whole

[01:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: thing possible yeah i do want to give the quick trivia for people before we go uh diarond is this

[01:24:05] [SPEAKER_02]: is the one i have more familiarity with i had to look up a room meal but diarond is the

[01:24:10] [SPEAKER_02]: the elf that ratted out baron and luthien to thing all so said your daughter is is going and

[01:24:17] [SPEAKER_02]: cavorting with men well i just think it's funny that they they say i laughed because

[01:24:23] [SPEAKER_02]: thinking of diarond the the elf that ratted out baron and luthien that was kind of a narc about it

[01:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: uh calling him insufferable made me laugh i was like yeah diarond does suck

[01:24:34] [SPEAKER_02]: a tattletail a tattletail yeah he's a he's a tattletail there and room meal i guess was a

[01:24:39] [SPEAKER_02]: lure master of valinor who apparently wrote the anilindole was the one who recorded it

[01:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting yeah so we had to get to recover from the responsibility yeah these these are

[01:24:52] [SPEAKER_02]: deep cups indeed wow absolutely he learned the secret language of the valor which most elves do not know

[01:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah that's huge yeah that is definitely but i guess was a drunkard at the same time

[01:25:07] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah well sometimes we see things that scare us so much we have to uh

[01:25:12] [SPEAKER_00]: rely on some crutches to see us through i'm not giving any kind of

[01:25:16] [SPEAKER_00]: approval of alcoholism believe me but um yeah you can understand why it happens right

[01:25:23] [SPEAKER_02]: all right so the next scene is the stranger is not thriving in ruin the stranger collapses from

[01:25:28] [SPEAKER_02]: dehydration they get him water but accidentally ring the bell of the well attracting the traggers

[01:25:34] [SPEAKER_02]: they arrive and the stranger uses his uh sorry he finds a stick and uses it to send everyone

[01:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: into a sandstorm including the harfoot's he tries to catch nori but she is swept away in the storm

[01:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: two and the staff crumbles along with poppy being swept away well who yeah but who cares

[01:25:56] [SPEAKER_02]: poppy cares but he doesn't really he's he's he's concerned about nori poppy is poppy is

[01:26:01] [SPEAKER_03]: straight upside character here i know i was thinking in this that clearly these two harfoots

[01:26:07] [SPEAKER_03]: do not have their first aid certifications because when somebody is not bleeding or not

[01:26:11] [SPEAKER_03]: breathing as which nori says you don't drag them on a mat yeah you just either water is going to

[01:26:18] [SPEAKER_03]: make him breathe again and now i'm sorry i was a little weird i had this was the one scene where

[01:26:22] [SPEAKER_03]: i had some like oh this is a little clunky it's a little lumpy i get it all i get the mechanics

[01:26:28] [SPEAKER_03]: of it all and and where we're going but like yeah i was like okay moving on well put it down to

[01:26:33] [SPEAKER_00]: sunstroke yeah yeah they weren't thinking clearly i mean the fact that they didn't react in the

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: slightest when this big bell starts to ring i mean usually the harfoots are the ones who are best able

[01:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: to hide from humans but of course they're completely out of their usual environment the whole point of

[01:26:49] [SPEAKER_03]: the trackers was they was going to capture the harfoots hold them hostage to get the stranger

[01:26:54] [SPEAKER_03]: instead they charge right adam they never mind the maneuvers as as the quote goes and and go

[01:26:59] [SPEAKER_03]: right adam which is like wait that's not what your plan is and then oh we're gonna hide

[01:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: i don't want maybe they underestimated his power who knows who knows i think the thing is

[01:27:10] [SPEAKER_03]: the staff disintegrates though i think that was interesting wasn't it yeah yeah so it's not

[01:27:15] [SPEAKER_00]: just the physical tool it's also the ability to use it and is the it does the tool can the tool

[01:27:23] [SPEAKER_03]: manage the power that you're trying to channel through it as well because that was like a

[01:27:26] [SPEAKER_03]: little stick to hold the the rope thing sure sure but i think it's also a question of

[01:27:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that's part of what you have to learn which is which is how to conduct the power through the tool

[01:27:39] [SPEAKER_03]: agreed yeah and maybe in shaping the tool uh you know there's a you know you maybe you have to

[01:27:46] [SPEAKER_00]: make your staff not just find it that's often part of of lore from from many different cultures

[01:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah right yeah so uh it fielding is what i've titled the next scene oh i love that so much

[01:28:00] [SPEAKER_02]: kelo brim bore shows his assistant his new invention a field in an invisible metal made of mithril

[01:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: that becomes visible in moonlight on the cold night on that cold night rather they discuss

[01:28:12] [SPEAKER_02]: allowing saran inside kelo brim bore meets saran outside where he successfully convinces kelo

[01:28:18] [SPEAKER_02]: brim bore that he was in linden when the rings saved the trees he deceives kelo brim bore into

[01:28:25] [SPEAKER_02]: thinking he's been abandoned by gilgallad leading kelo brim bore to take the conversation

[01:28:29] [SPEAKER_02]: inside it's it's he plays on the doubt right it's so good he is the evil talented manipulator part

[01:28:37] [SPEAKER_02]: excellent right the the way he goes oh i'll just be going and oh you don't need me here

[01:28:43] [SPEAKER_02]: he knew as soon as he could speak to kelo brim bore that was the way that was that was why

[01:28:49] [SPEAKER_02]: gladrile didn't say don't let him in she said don't even treat with him treat with him because

[01:28:55] [SPEAKER_02]: she knew he would be able to deceive kelo brim bore or if there was at least a risk of it

[01:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: standing outside playing peter gabriel works just that one line isn't this always the way with us

[01:29:08] [SPEAKER_03]: creators you know making it a you and me bro right so is the this mithril uh thilden is this

[01:29:20] [SPEAKER_00]: to speak friend and enter absolutely is want to make sure i was correct on that which is why it gives

[01:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: me hope for the doors of door and especially now that naradri is on the scene so fingers crossed

[01:29:31] [SPEAKER_02]: it is that and also in the shadow of mordor video games which i loved which are very

[01:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: lore not accurate you could find little a filled-in pieces random places with your shadow sense

[01:29:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and you could claim them it was great it was great okay did anybody else like the elven umbrella

[01:29:48] [SPEAKER_00]: that they brought out i thought it was brilliant because it's modeled after a plant oh yeah or at least

[01:29:55] [SPEAKER_00]: that's what it made me think of you know the jack and the pulpits nope nope it's a wonderful woodland

[01:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: plant it's it's rare now it's a protected species okay you see it in in new england forests um

[01:30:05] [SPEAKER_00]: where there's a lot of good undergrowth the the there's a a statement like piece in the middle

[01:30:11] [SPEAKER_00]: they call them johnny jump up sometime and then a leaf comes up and oh yeah sure i've seen these

[01:30:16] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah i thought you would yeah yeah yeah so let's bring in the rest of the conversation so we can

[01:30:21] [SPEAKER_02]: talk fully about and definitely and kelly brimbo is thrilled to hear sarron's tale that his rings were

[01:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: success he feels he has finally succeeded as a creator and opens a first-age bottle of wine

[01:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: sarron yeah sarron implies he is an emissary of the valar but kelly brimbo is hesitant to

[01:30:42] [SPEAKER_02]: believe it sarron dims the lights relights the forge and takes the elvish form of anata the lord of

[01:30:49] [SPEAKER_02]: gifts his goal is to get kelly brimbo to forge rings for the other peoples of middle earth i like

[01:30:58] [SPEAKER_02]: that we have a mission now right this is now our our guiding path for sarron this season

[01:31:05] [SPEAKER_03]: the uh did you catch that the forge even is in the shape of an eye they've been playing with the

[01:31:11] [SPEAKER_03]: eye motif a lot with the lava and the forge yeah so they're they're being tricksy the show runners

[01:31:18] [SPEAKER_03]: are being tricksy with the cinematography yes which is good right we want them to do that

[01:31:24] [SPEAKER_03]: as long as they don't overdo it yes right it's got to be right it's a fine line right well we know

[01:31:29] [SPEAKER_03]: when it's it's it's like certain things we know what it is when we see it and when it's off we

[01:31:33] [SPEAKER_03]: know it's off i thought it was interesting that sarron went out as a blast of ice and in this one

[01:31:41] [SPEAKER_03]: he comes back in a blast of fire so i was like oh wait a little song of ice and fire action going

[01:31:47] [SPEAKER_00]: here you know well of course ice and fire supposedly two of the most intense elements so

[01:31:52] [SPEAKER_02]: that would make sense i i love this new look for sarron i love the anatar look it's exactly

[01:31:59] [SPEAKER_00]: what i wanted out of out of sarron in the second age right yes absolutely and that one image of him

[01:32:08] [SPEAKER_00]: as he's floating with godlit clouds behind him in his robe yeah gently building the reason

[01:32:15] [SPEAKER_00]: classic jesus image jesus and also mary i've seen that painting that oil in the basement of my

[01:32:30] [SPEAKER_00]: their religious imagery backgrounds there with that but talking wasn't really interreligion was he

[01:32:37] [SPEAKER_02]: interesting question john i'm just kidding um yeah so so i i mean i love this and i think charlie

[01:32:43] [SPEAKER_02]: vickers is a really great job changing his vocal tone to to be amazing hello i am anatar the lord

[01:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: of gifts he's no longer the gruff halbran i think really doing a great job here i'm so glad

[01:32:57] [SPEAKER_03]: with this casting yeah i think i think it's superb been doing it well my only question i wonder why

[01:33:05] [SPEAKER_00]: kelo brim bore didn't sense it when they put the rings on

[01:33:10] [SPEAKER_03]: kelo brim bore didn't sense it he was the crafter he was sure of them and he wouldn't sense the

[01:33:16] [SPEAKER_00]: vibrations that they're activating i don't know i mean why did he not have one himself i mean

[01:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: well it sounds like aaron it gallant scarfed them all i know but in in their initial creation it was

[01:33:29] [SPEAKER_00]: auran and galadriel and kelo brim bore so right it just i don't know i mean i don't know that

[01:33:35] [SPEAKER_00]: there was any lore elements that would have supported that interpretation but it just occurred to

[01:33:40] [SPEAKER_00]: me to wonder you know why what is he so completely cut off i mean there's a son way and we've

[01:33:45] [SPEAKER_00]: talked about this distance interfere with that but surely there would have been other messengers

[01:33:51] [SPEAKER_00]: who would have come to oregion saying yes the tree the tree we don't have to leave

[01:33:57] [SPEAKER_02]: middle earth isn't it wonderful right right it's a good question it's a good question i just love the

[01:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: i'm going to open the first age bottle wonderful and then he never drinks again

[01:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: because he gets knocked on the floor when anatar all appears i mean i mean i mean you can

[01:34:16] [SPEAKER_02]: definitely sub out some like romantic music for when anatar comes in the look that kelo

[01:34:21] [SPEAKER_03]: brim bore gives him oh lord oh lord don't get me started question uh with anatar sauron whatever

[01:34:30] [SPEAKER_03]: wasn't there a time when sauron was on new manure and he appeared to the new minorians in a different

[01:34:37] [SPEAKER_02]: four i'm trying to so in the lore that happened after after the rings were forged right oh that's

[01:34:44] [SPEAKER_03]: what it is okay i had a backwards i had a backwards in my head now he's he's on new norby it is

[01:34:48] [SPEAKER_02]: a weird order i would assume it was the opposite order as well because you would think he'd want to

[01:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: be in the second but in in the writings he did go to the elves first got it okay cool and i'm still

[01:35:00] [SPEAKER_03]: wondering when the dwarf rings are going to uh get made show their creed well we saw in the trailers

[01:35:07] [SPEAKER_03]: right oh yeah in the trailer it's clear that they it's gonna happen right um well we'll have to wait

[01:35:14] [SPEAKER_00]: what actually i have an idea but i won't i won't spoil it there was one other thing

[01:35:17] [SPEAKER_03]: that caught me in this which is the whole sub creator conversation uh and that you know the this

[01:35:24] [SPEAKER_03]: whole idea of creating these rings and creating this these powerful forces and uh when kelly brim bore

[01:35:31] [SPEAKER_03]: is like oh you know he's like you know uh how brand is asking about are you crying he's like no he's

[01:35:37] [SPEAKER_03]: like you don't you don't know the joy that i'm feeling right now yeah and then it just made

[01:35:41] [SPEAKER_03]: me think of that whole sub creator stuff that was going on you know with tolkin but then

[01:35:46] [SPEAKER_03]: then it i looped back and i was like it has sauron created or is he just manipulated and

[01:35:53] [SPEAKER_03]: isn't that a thing in with tolkin which is evil can't create it can only bend in in malformed

[01:35:59] [SPEAKER_03]: things that have already been created great catch yeah so there was that subtle playing

[01:36:05] [SPEAKER_03]: going on where where saurons watching you know or how brand is watching him and i couldn't tell

[01:36:11] [SPEAKER_03]: what vickers was giving us was he giving us jealousy was he giving us but i do know

[01:36:16] [SPEAKER_03]: or i don't know or it was just great it was very it was it was really well played

[01:36:21] [SPEAKER_03]: if he was giving us something it was i've got you that too mixed in as well

[01:36:28] [SPEAKER_03]: are you my friend and i love that too oh that line it's like you have to invite a vampire

[01:36:34] [SPEAKER_03]: you know part of vampire lore you have to invite them in the house right he's like are you my

[01:36:38] [SPEAKER_03]: friends you know it's like okay so now we're bonded now i've even got you even he's kind

[01:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: of sparkly like in twilight and i have a feeling it's only going to get more intense we'll see

[01:36:49] [SPEAKER_02]: yep so this is this is all really great stuff i think really great setup for the rest of the

[01:36:53] [SPEAKER_02]: season um we have one last scene a new power dynamic where gilgallad gives galadriel orders

[01:36:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to go to a reggae on but makes clear that elrond is her new boss meanwhile durin four is

[01:37:06] [SPEAKER_03]: invited to a reggae on by killer brim bore yeah so messages aren't getting in but messages got out

[01:37:14] [SPEAKER_03]: well because guess yeah he wants his back message to get out exactly yeah which i just think i'm just

[01:37:21] [SPEAKER_03]: pointing back to mariland's earlier question yeah is how is he throttling the communications to

[01:37:27] [SPEAKER_03]: a reggae on yeah right what forces does he have outside of a reggae on that's a good question

[01:37:31] [SPEAKER_02]: that gets set up how did it get set up yeah maybe he didn't go right to a reggae on took some orcs

[01:37:39] [SPEAKER_00]: well and again this is sort of a question throughout about because my art what are his limits

[01:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: he is subjecting himself to some pretty serious limit right but he has a purpose in mind when he

[01:37:55] [SPEAKER_02]: does that yeah he can do a lot more than we see on screen yes and i'm not sure that he has any

[01:38:01] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of control or influence over orcs at this point because they are all committed to a god

[01:38:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and are scared at the thought that sauron the necromancer might actually have come back yeah

[01:38:15] [SPEAKER_00]: so who else does he does sauron have to pick on for bully boys you know well we know sauron's

[01:38:21] [SPEAKER_00]: very good at recruiting men well that's true and interesting that it's kela brim bore who talks

[01:38:26] [SPEAKER_00]: about men being easily corrupted yeah when this topic of rings for men comes up sauron's like you

[01:38:33] [SPEAKER_00]: don't say you don't say men are easily corrupted imagine what a new thought i'll have to ponder

[01:38:41] [SPEAKER_02]: this for a while i'll be in my study for a while yeah all right well that was a lovely episode

[01:38:49] [SPEAKER_02]: we did it in under two hours this time it was exciting hey hey shall we just talk quickly

[01:38:54] [SPEAKER_02]: about programming notes by the way before we do that send in feedback to lotr at the lorehounds.com

[01:39:00] [SPEAKER_02]: nancy'll be on the other end so please uh please send her a nice email if you want to do feedback

[01:39:05] [SPEAKER_02]: i think we're gonna limit feedback to just emails and voicemails this season because we're

[01:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: doing the extra lorecast so make sure you post in an email or the contact form or voicemail

[01:39:16] [SPEAKER_02]: if you want your email if you want your feedback right on the podcast

[01:39:21] [SPEAKER_02]: um alisha just told me what she's doing this week i'm trying to make sure that i have it

[01:39:25] [SPEAKER_02]: correct she is doing a podcast with maryland maryland you want to talk about that quick

[01:39:32] [SPEAKER_00]: yes it was the second half of a series on the myths and legends from star wars i think part one

[01:39:41] [SPEAKER_00]: is coming out this week oh it's part one coming out this week okay so that's part one of that

[01:39:46] [SPEAKER_00]: is coming out and there is a part two that we just recently recorded so that's why that was uppermost in

[01:39:50] [SPEAKER_00]: my mind but yeah we had a lot of fun um imagine that putting alisha and i together and we get to

[01:39:57] [SPEAKER_00]: talk about myths and legends and witches and wow and she's also doing her wool shift dust book

[01:40:03] [SPEAKER_02]: club with the first part of the third book of the wool shift dust series and that is the

[01:40:09] [SPEAKER_02]: silo series dust part one so that'll be a good time and we also have i think next week aran's

[01:40:19] [SPEAKER_02]: going to be back with more radioactive ramblings but not right now so i'll keep you all posted on that

[01:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: next week for us david can you talk a little bit about alien uh we are going to have a movie reaction

[01:40:31] [SPEAKER_03]: alien romulus movie reaction podcast to go along with our two previous podcasts that we did on the

[01:40:37] [SPEAKER_03]: 1979 movie one with a couple of academics and then one um where uh aisha and alicia and i get together

[01:40:45] [SPEAKER_03]: and talk about 79 so but we should have a reaction we don't have it scheduled yet but uh we're

[01:40:51] [SPEAKER_02]: gathering our or marshaling our forces that very cool and i know alisha brandon and i are going

[01:40:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to be doing a beetle juice beetle juice a couple weeks so that'll be a lot of fun too

[01:41:05] [SPEAKER_02]: cool and mariland and i also recorded a podcast on silmarillion stories of maiglin that we will

[01:41:10] [SPEAKER_02]: be releasing this month as well so that'll be a lot of fun yeah that took a really interesting

[01:41:14] [SPEAKER_02]: turn didn't i thought that was a very unique conversation about tolkin like i've never i've

[01:41:19] [SPEAKER_02]: never actually considered that topic in tolkin before we did talk about um you know trigger

[01:41:24] [SPEAKER_02]: warning for that podcast sexual assault um within tolkin because it's relevant to that

[01:41:28] [SPEAKER_03]: chapter oh yeah okay one other thing is uh for subscribers uh v for vendetta on 11z's all right

[01:41:35] [SPEAKER_02]: right right well so good work you want to do our quick shout outs sure hit me

[01:41:42] [SPEAKER_03]: maybe some music very nice i don't know should i put on a pair of wingtips

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[01:42:11] [SPEAKER_03]: our community to our allure masters uh our top tier monthly subscribers and annual subscribers

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[01:42:56] [SPEAKER_03]: jeffrey b elisa u and forever last but never least adrian thank you all so very much we couldn't

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[01:43:13] [SPEAKER_03]: gal's old sports thank you thank you thank you thank you cool all right one more two more podcasts

[01:43:21] [SPEAKER_02]: to go for this recording the lorkast right after this so see you all on the third episode the

[01:43:30] [SPEAKER_02]: lorkhounds podcast is produced and published by the lorkhounds you can send questions and feedback

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