The Rings of Power - S02E05-07 Mailbag

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe he'll become the Witch King of Enxedmar.

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to The Rings of Power Podcast. We're the Lorehounds, your guide to Tolkien's world of Middle Earth. I'm John

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Marilyn and this is our feedback episode right John? It sure is we didn't write an intro so it's a nice improvisation there

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, I'm getting this stuff, you know. Yeah, so we did a mid-season feedback roundup

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And now it's been a few more episodes. We're here to talk about people's feedback for episodes five and six

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Then I think we're gonna come back one more time at the end of the season and talk about the last two episodes

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's where we are at at this point because it's just a lot of podcasting

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_02]: We got the main cast we got the Lore cast and now so these

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Supplemental feedback episodes David could not be here tonight if you haven't noticed so we're all trading off now, right?

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, there that's fine. Yeah, that's that's the beauty of having three co-hosts

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely that we can all you know somebody somebody feels under the weather like I did last week David does tonight

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And the other two can go on and

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Fulfill the prophecies and have a wonderful time doing it exactly exactly

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's just gonna be you and me tonight and I think on the Lore cast too

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_02]: But David is on the main recap which we recorded last night, but it's not out because of the magic of podcasting

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_02]: But it is a magical episode nonetheless, it sure is yeah, we had a great time great conversation

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So I just want to say this is coming out after

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Episode seven so I I'm gonna say we can talk spoilers for through episode seven

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you have not watched through episode seven, okay turn away

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I don't think I could possibly go back in time and not talk about what I've already seen now

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_03]: It becomes very difficult to separate out. Oh, which episode did this happen in so, you know

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_03]: That's just the way we roll folks and apologies if that disturbs anybody at some point

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's all right. We've we've got the team here. We're ready to go

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_02]: If you want to send in feedback

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You can do that at LOTR at the Lorehounds comm you can go to the website the Lorehounds comm and use the contact form or the voicemail

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Feature you can go on your phone and record a voice memo

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You can email that to us at LOTR at the Lorehounds comm and yeah, I want to just give a big thank you to Nancy

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh Nancy collecting all the feedback co-leading it nicely

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Will you want to talk about Nancy Marilyn? Nancy is wonderful Nancy is a

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_03]: treasure I

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Love that she's taken on a second career quote-unquote

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_03]: We're both sound like we're both in the same stages of our lies we's a V careers and whatnot and wow, she's just

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_03]: She's just jumped in with Bill Fee and

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Doing all kinds of wonderful things for us. So a glario light that they like that they Nancy

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think it's time we

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Get started let's get into the feedback do it just as a reminder if you want the Lorecast and if you want the show guide

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: You can head to the show notes go to the linkery season passes ten bucks

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It's one time forever or you can join a recurring subscription and get all of our goodies

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the last time I'll do salesmanship till the outro. So don't worry there we go

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_03]: To start off. Yes, we have one from Altale Rola

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Otherwise known as New Zealand which is very exciting. Yes, would you like to read it? I will happily read it

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Hi, David John and Marilyn I host cast of the Rings

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Lotr podcast on the podcast Dica Network

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for your awesome podcast. Well, thank you. That's very kind and when I am

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Especially enjoying the Silmarillion stories to help me through my second reading of the book. There you go, John

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I knew

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_03]: It is so interesting to dive back into this lore as an accompaniment to the Rings of power

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_03]: The showrunners are doing a great job of bringing us juicy bits of lore while keeping the casual viewer engaged

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a bit of a balancing act, isn't it and I agree they're doing a good job there

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I am enjoying listening to your breakdowns each week though. I always wait until after we've recorded

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Also avoid any online discussions so we can record fresh

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I know what she means that's or he I'm assuming she I shouldn't but I know what they mean there

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll get it right

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_03]: It's really tricky to be sure that I want to come to it just with my own

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Experience and views and so forth and then I'll listen to what other people have to say right? Oh, that's interesting

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't catch that. Yeah, you know, I want to say I did listen to Anne Wynn's podcast and really

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Really enjoyed what I heard. I haven't listened to

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Everything just yet because you know, we're busy and I also try to keep my opinions pretty pure for the season

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But then I'll go back after the season and I'll listen to other stuff and really great work

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And and I would just want to thank you podcaster to podcaster for writing in and

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: recommending our podcast and all that and

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, good luck with the rest of the season

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I've been meaning to write you an email back and it will come if I if it hasn't by the time this airs

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_03]: and

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Props to you for getting screeners

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah being very careful not to watch too far ahead. It's it's a real temptation, isn't it? It is and thanks for giving recommendations

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_03]: The Lorehounds that's wonderful and wow you were an extra on the two towers

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_03]: You'll have to tell your story about that sometime. I hope this is very exciting

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the Lord of the Rings tour guide for two years

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I wonder if you are tour guide for any of the tours that I went on when I did the Lord of the Rings

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_03]: tours of our Teotra

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Now the question is what kind of an extra were you what species were you?

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well there were an awful lot of work extras

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I know that I ran across in my travels

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_03]: So could be fair enough or maybe they were enough who knows yeah, you never know

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Hanon lay melon in thank you. Thank you very much on when lovely to hear from yeah

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, Hanwin. Hope you write in again and let's let's get in touch

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm always looking for new guests for some Merle in stories. There you go. That would be a lovely pairing I think yeah

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, Michael L

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_02]: writes in and says hi David John and Marilyn huge fan of the show

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I've been really been enjoying rings of power and loving all your content on the first and second age lore

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I read the appendices of the Silmarillion a few times

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I think oh and the Silmarillion. I was like it's a bit of the Silmarillion

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Appendices and to the Silmarillion a few times and had a quick question about a our and deal

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I was catching up on a pad podcast past podcasts about rings of power season one episode three

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_02]: John and David mentioned that a our and deal was the son of Baron and Luthien and therefore had some my our blood

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It was my understanding from the published Silmarillion that

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Arendale's parents were two or an e-drill

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It that it was his wife Elrond's mother that was Baron and Luthien's granddaughter and carried my our blood

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I know Tolkien is known to contradict some parentage details

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So I wasn't sure if this was from some other writings apologies

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_02]: If you already addressed this in a later episode and I missed it

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks again for all that you do Godspeed and Namari a yeah

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, I just want to say cuz because you weren't on that podcast Marilyn. So I'll do the correction right?

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I may have corrected it on a later podcast

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I remember if I did you did I did okay or at least it came up again in a subsequent podcast and we

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Clarified and we went down the whole ancestry line fairly recently too, I think me maybe I should yeah

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I think well we I think we even talked about it on this week's recap

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Which did not come out by the time Michael wrote this email right?

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no you're you're absolutely right. It's it's elwing that comes from Baron and Luthien

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I think probably what was in my head when I wrote down that in the outline was that Elrond is kind of the merging of all of these

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Elvis lions

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But I was just I just misspoke and I

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Apologize to the peoples of Middle-Earth for getting their lineage is wrong

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So thanks for bringing that up Michael, maybe I should record a little a little bit like hey, it's future John

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: This was wrong

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_02]: In your copious amounts of spare time. Yeah, right? Yeah one day I'll do an edit to that episode

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Next we hear from Jordan M

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Salute all quickie this time I promise

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Wait wait wait wait wait wait

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Jordan is going to be mad if I don't read the French. Oh

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_03]: But I wanted to use my I wanted okay. All right. All right

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll have this you do it and then after every French phrase. I will I will

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Attempt it to use Jordan because Jordan Jordan's goal in life is to make me say as many French words as possible

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to make sure that I honor that request and I'm gonna repeat any French phrases after you

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, well here's the first one. Salut all

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Salute no tea in the end

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Quickie this time I promise

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Whilst sad I couldn't indeed torture John with some French

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_03]: But you who succeeded in that goal Jordan

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Marilyn, don't force it

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Bravo

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Bravo

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Merci bien Jordan

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Vous êtes trop gentil

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_03]: John my husband turned to me at some point to ask why I suddenly pulled out my phone and was frantically typing

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I had to explain. Well, John just straight washed Rufus Sherry

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_03]: You want to try a Sherry?

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Sherry

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Only to be quickly relieved by your own rapid fact checking

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_03]: So hashtag John marked safe from the Montreal gay community. Haha. Oh, that's excellent

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't I don't need that on my tail. You know, I don't I don't need I don't need a whole group

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Hunting me down no to mill I mean let me know that Rufus Winwright is indeed a gay man

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it could be um

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes a difficult moment if that were to come about

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_03]: He continues shout out always to David to and Nancy for her excellent editing and PR work

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_03]: bull

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm sorry. That was my cue

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Boom off to watch episode five and then spend the day's chores listening to my new season pass

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Cheers mezany mezany

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: That's my that's my french accent everyone enjoys I learned it in ratatouille

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I was gonna say it sounds like you got it from some movie or other so

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Ratatouille sounds about right. Well, thank you Jordan

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I really do appreciate you uh, your your mission in life to make me say as many quebecois phrases as I can

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, salut Jordan message on a body not to be confused with message in a bottle

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay. All right. I see what you're doing there. That was Nancy. Yes. Yeah. All right

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's Neil now wrote in and said I have some linguistic questions

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_02]: The message on the body was written in the alphabet of coups duel the language of the dwarves

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: However, black speech has no alphabet of its own

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm assuming the message is actually in black speech to my knowledge

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_02]: We as the audience have only seen black speech in tangoir as the inscription on the ring

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Why did adar write it in coups duel and not tangoir adar doesn't know coups duel

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_02]: He knows black speech west run and quenya, which is why he should use tangoir

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it possible one of the uruks is multilingual?

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Could this be another aspect of their culture

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: An uruk linguist seems unlikely but honestly I love that possibility

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Do we think that they adar and the uruks?

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Use coups duel to confuse killibran boar or the ruler of the region assuming they don't actually know killibran boar specifically

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know adar knew about the the elven rings too

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So was it to make killibran boar think the dwarves sent it but also get the message across to anatar

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it would have been too obvious to send hit in tangoir because the elves would know automatically that it's not cindar

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's unclear if they could know if it's not quenya as most of them probably don't speak that either

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But killibran boar would have been able to read quenya and would have probably recognized it as black speech

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Why does adar care?

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Why wouldn't he want to out anatar as saran writing black speech on the body?

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Why be so cryptic just to mess with anatar?

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it wasn't physically possible because there wasn't enough room on the body

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So what I want to know is which uruks speaks kazdoo

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Kuzoo

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they're all

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they are just telling the story that adar is a linguist and knows all the languages and that's that

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, he certainly had a lot of time to learn the language. Just has any

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_03]: well, yes, he has but um

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_03]: In point of fact

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_03]: The actuality is a little bit different from

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_03]: What it's neil now is positing if you go to the

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Appendices and lord of the rings on the languages we learned that the kyrth

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Otherwise known as the runes were actually first devised in belarian by sendar elves

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So you need to not confuse the alphabet with the language

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_03]: You can use an alphabet to write in any language you want

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_03]: With a little squidging around in variations for some alphabets that don't have some of the

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Letters or sounds or whatever that another alphabet might

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_03]: So it was mostly used only for a

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_03]: note

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_03]: For scratched or incised inscriptions

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_03]: For names and memorials on wood or stone and this was the first thing I thought of was well, of course

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_03]: They wouldn't use tango because that would be virtually impossible to carve into flesh

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to use

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_03]: runes

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_03]: However, you came to know about them but in this case

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Presumably adar learned about runes when he was in malarion because it was the elves who invented runes

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, they spread really interesting marilin. Yeah, they spread east in the second age

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Which is the age we're in now

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And the kyrth were used by elves humans dwarves and orcs

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And they were somewhat altered by each of the peoples that used them

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So we're so accustomed to saying okay runes equals dwarves, but in fact, that's not the case

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Runes have been used by all the peoples that we know that used writing at all

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Then diaron

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Developed his own particular version of the kyrth

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_03]: While he was in doria

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_03]: That was used in a region and spread from there to chazadum

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So the elves actually had it before the doors did

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, how did the guy have the time after tattling on baron and luthien all day?

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_03]: He got a wonder maybe he's trying to make up for something

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And then here's a quote it is said that black speech was devised by salron in the dark years

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Which are another name for the second age. So here we are in the middle of it

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And that he wanted it to be the language of all his servants

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_03]: So that didn't work out

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_03]: After his first overthrow only the nazgul

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_03]: mean

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Maintained the language of black speech until sauton returned to morthor

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that answers an awful lot of kneel's

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_03]: suppositions and questions and whatnot

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_03]: The runes were everywhere

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody knew them everybody used them for their own alphabets who wanted to and they're primarily

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Used for

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Carving things which you know can turn your stomach a little if you think about

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we're talking about here

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And the black speech was already around at this point. We've already seen it used in many instances

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that's just the showrunners, you know

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Tootling things for their own convenience. It's actually in

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_03]: The appendices which of course they have permission to use in the ring

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_03]: So I hope that clarifies it all. I don't know. There's anything I missed john

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I I think that's it. I think the only other thing I'd clarify is I I think actually more people speak

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Quenya than neil is alluding to in a reggae on

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I you know, it is the language of lore

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But that means that if you want to go read like an old lore book then you have to speak quenya

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_02]: um, and it's it's the

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: It seems like from my understanding like all the annals of these cities are being written in quenya

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_02]: You can't I would think so and and also thinkles gone the band on cindurine is gone

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Like they could openly speak quenya. Nobody's gonna stop me. The band on quenya is gone

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, and let's remember adar was in his origins an elf

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and we don't know how long he lived as an elf until he was taken and tortured and twisted etc. etc

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_03]: but um, right he lived through it all I mean, I wonder if he is of the same age as kiran

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, that's interesting speculative book

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, thanks neil. That's that sparked an interesting lore drop by mariland

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you definitely got me going on that one. He also thinks

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: You want to read about saran's master plan with double?

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I will indeed do that

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Greetings my take on saran's machinations in this episode seem to be different from the podcasts. I've listened to including yours

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_03]: So maybe i'm way off, but this is how I saw it

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_03]: This guy is spinning wheels within wheels and it's as glorious to watch as it is diabolical

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no argument there. Although i'm not sure I think it's glorious but diabolical absolutely

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_03]: He continues

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_03]: As planned this has him go to khaza doom to appeal to the dwarves

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I believe that saran's primary goal here is not the myth reel at all

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_03]: But to use king dorin's greed at the prospect of untold wealth and riches to motivate him to accelerate his myth reel mining operations

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_03]: The goal being to reach the bow rung awaken it and cause their destruction or at least in the hope of gaining it as an ally

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_03]: The scene was brilliantly done with one hint at saran's true motivation being the quick focus on the flaming torch

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I assume that means the fire in the basket with the balrog flashing out

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I'd encourage you to watch that scene again with saran's unleash the balrog plan in mind

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's remember that dorin's veins balrog is a maya and a former servant of wargoth just like saran their kind of old co-workers

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, yeah, I like that description. They might not all they might not have met

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean it was a big enterprise right but still that's true. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's like I think

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02]: saran is more of a bezos to an amazon worker that uh

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: You know that that the balrog would be yeah, probably

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe a vp. Maybe besides the balrogs reported directly to watercoff

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think they would probably consider themselves on an equal plane with saran. I don't think that saladon would consider it

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: That yeah, yeah, I think saran kind of

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_02]: You know sometimes companies will run with like, you know, they have their regular hierarchies and then they have like a loose cannon kind of

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I think saran is kind of the loose cannon right? He's he was kind of allowed to do a lot of what he wanted in the first age

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And he you know had very creative malice

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure up to a point and at the end of the day john, is it not in fact all about project management

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It is all about project management. I like that that's catching on

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm very proud of that one. I can see where you are. So getting back to the message here

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So saran's manipulating events to create a mythreal shortage and using that to bring the doors closer to the balrog

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And keep in mind that it's the ring that saran himself corrupted and gave to king durin that is fueling the king's greed and allowing

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_03]: saran's plan to work

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Then upon returning to oregion

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I think he brings forth some of the mythreal that he's been stashing away telling kello brimbo the doors gave it to him

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Meanwhile, the armies have worked that he lured from most or to a reggae honor at its gates

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_03]: The doors are closing in on unleashing the balrog

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_03]: The nine rings of men are almost finished and he no doubt plans to slink away from it all and with a takeaway bag of nithril

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's also note that unleashing the balrog not only pays off by driving the doors out of khaza doom

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_03]: But also in mutually killing saran's greatest threat in the third age gandalf

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Which all panned out perfectly for him until the valar intervened and respond gandalf

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not sure there was that much foreknowledge of what was going to happen even among the valar. Yeah

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that was eru's response to oh, i'm even wearing my spibhimi shirt tonight spibhimi

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, shall prove but can we say what spibhimi is before we

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Of course questions spibhimi is a term coined by the wonderful folks at the prancing pony podcast

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_03]: It is stands for shall prove but mind instrument

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_03]: spbm ispimimi meaning

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Even the worst things that morgoth or any of his subsequent

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_03]: evil cohorts ever do

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Can be used by eru alivut hath to bring about a greater good that nobody had even imagined

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, right

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Makes sense to me makes sense to me too

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, let's see take away a bag of mithril

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And respond again of enormous credit has to go to the writers for constructing most of this because the source materials reveal

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Only a vague hint at saran's manipulation and creating the ring

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks and living the podcast. Well, there's some stuff in here that i'm not sure that i'm

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_03]: quite on board with and of course

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_03]: We're at the advantage now in future history

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm assuming this episode was i mean this email was written before the episode in which we saw that in fact that mithril was

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Now we're near being mithril. It was yeah, yeah

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_02]: We're we just are at an information advantage because we watch episode seven

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So now we know there was no mithril to be had anyway, right? It was all the blood of sauron

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, right and i think you could read the the flash of the bow rogg in the flame there as sauron went past in a number of ways

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, but you know this the one presented here in this in this feedback is certainly

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_03]: As viable as any other because they don't really specify it too much

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I also think it's important that we keep in mind the difference between what the show runners are doing and what both is doing

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah, because

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_03]: They're not the same thing and i'm not saying better or worse on either side. I'm just saying

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes some of the things you're seeing are actually the creations of the show runners based on talking material

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's talk about mithril some more because kaiser came in with an email that basically

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_02]: pretty pretty

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: well

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_02]: predicted this episode

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Kaiser wrote and again before episode seven ever came out. Hi all so this question of the week is

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Where did sauron get the mithril? I have another question. Are we sure it's mithril?

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_02]: This is presented during the deception of kelobrin moor

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Could it be some other substance with much more of saurons paint a backdoor into the nine that will allow him to control them

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And if it is mithril, perhaps it was some that he squirreled away earlier to work on in secret

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's face it. He didn't try particularly hard to get more mithril at kazadum did he

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, can I have some mithril durin? No. Well, well, okay, never mind. Bye

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Also, I must admit I did think the dwarves were pulling fully formed coins and challenges out of the rock at first. Ha ha

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think kaiser deserves some internet points or at least

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely serial because in fact we now know from episode seven

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_03]: That it was absolutely some other substance with much more of saurons taint

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Not as much saurons taint as you could get. Yes, your delivery truck full of internet points will be arriving in about three business days

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Project management gotta love it. Mm-hmm

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we've got a voicemail next. Oh, we do. Yes. Yeah, shall I read it? No, I have a recording

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's right. Duh

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: That's all right. All right. Here we go. Hey everyone. It's finessa from san jose

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Just hope you're having a great week wanted to call in. I just finished listening to the latest episode

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And had a quick comment. There was a question about what celeb rembore might bring to the rings of power

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_01]: That sauron himself couldn't bring and I think the thing that he brings

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Is legitimacy

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Celeb rembore is known throughout the power circles of middle earth. He's known to be

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Wise, he's known to be kind. He's known to be

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Extremely talented. He's the master craftsman of the age

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_01]: He's trusted. He's well regarded. He's respected

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_01]: If he shows up or if one of his representatives shows up and says look

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Celeb rembore made these rings of power for you. They're going to help you

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Elevate your people. They're going to help you solve your problems

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: These are his gift to you

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: That's going to be met with a lot more trust

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01]: With a lot more

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Legitimacy as I said before people aren't going to second guess that

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_01]: They're not going to believe that celeb rembore would give them something that would be harmful

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_01]: As opposed to anatar or sauron in his anatar

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Persona who would be coming in going hey, my name is anatar. You don't know me from adam

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But um, I made these rings of power for you and and would you please just put them on and use them?

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01]: You can trust me. I they're going to be great. You're going to love it

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: um

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: best thing ever

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: People are going to look at him and go first off who the heck are you and where did you come from and

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to just meet that with a lot of skepticism with a lot of trepidation

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: With just a lot of caution

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And uncertainty

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's going to cause

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Soran's plans to be

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Not realized as quickly as he probably wants them to be

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: At least that's the impression I get from the show that he's trying to move on this quickly

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_01]: In the books it seems it takes a little longer and that's okay. Anyway, those were my two cents

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: um do with them what you will

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and have a great week and

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Talk to you later. Bye

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, if I can do what I will with them I will agree with them. I think that's that's a great point is that

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Caliburn bore you're right is is very well regarded amongst the peoples of Middle Earth and

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, he had that problematic grandpa, but we don't care until people based on their grandpa

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I think that's a great point is the dwarves. He's besties with them. They'll take him the elves

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_02]: he's an elven lord of the of the

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_02]: But what is the second most powerful elven realm within within

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Middle-earth at this point. So yeah, I think that's a great point. That's a great point

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_02]: It's it's a distribution method right project management project management. We need the distribution network

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, certainly I agree that um

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_03]: kelebrin bore's

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_03]: reliability was a key factor in persuading the dwarves to

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh bring the material to make the dwarven rings. My question was

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_03]: More about the actual manufacturing process the shows keeps seeming to tell us

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_03]: that

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Sauron cannot make them by himself if he could he would

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And the whole see the whole part of the season where he keeps, you know, he's

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Well season episode seven. Sorry. I can go ahead and yeah

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I'm so sorry. So he's created the the

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Imaginary bubble for kelebrin bore to work endlessly not knowing how many days and nights are passing

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_03]: He chains into the table and says finish them and so forth clearly

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_03]: There is something that kelebrin bore has or knows that he is not shared with Sauron

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_03]: That Sauron doesn't know or can't figure out

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_03]: He needs kelebrin bore to do this and that's the part that I find interesting

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And in the books it does take a little longer to make rings as in

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_03]: 500 years

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Or longer. It's a very long spread of time

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_03]: so um

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And also doesn't doesn't anitar say to kelebrin bore in this episode in episode seven

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I've learned so much from right

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so he does he does acknowledge like this is something that I did not know how to do before

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I really think that's the case and you know the final test as if you will is is the nine rings for humans

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, will it work if I use some of my own blood?

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. And of course, he won't know until he actually has some people try them on and see what happens presumably

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_03]: But ultimately he will go off Sauron will go off by himself

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_03]: To mount doom and forge the one ring. Um, at least that's

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_03]: It seems to be the trajectory that they're on so

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you want to read leila's next sure thing

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Leila writes on discord

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_03]: My theory on Sauron and andar in the orcs is that Sauron can basically mind control the orcs to do his bidding

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Because he essentially quote unquote made them

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like he will use them to destroy a region and then force them to kill the only father that they have ever known

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Adar

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And that will cement the orcs worshiping Sauron, but also fearing and hitting him

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_03]: They will be forced to kill the one being who truly loved them and cared for them and they will have nothing left

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_03]: But hatred and fear

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I think this is another time where the information deficit where now we have episode seven

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_02]: In our heads and leila didn't at this time right is that I think the the orcs are actually starting to present at our

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_03]: as of as of seven I do and I've even

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Floated it out there the possibility that uh, it may be that daddy orc is going to kill it out

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I think we may be in for a worm tongue saruman situation

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Something like that. Yeah. Yeah, and

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Sauron did not make the orcs

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Moragoth made the orcs. Yes. That was my other my other thing that piqued my ears

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I I think perhaps sarron had we don't know but perhaps sarron had you know an assistant role

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But he was the merdania to

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02]: To moragoth on this, you know, he wasn't the kill of brim war in new york's too soon john too soon

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we can't we're tired. We pour one out from merdania again. Definitely. Definitely

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that he just stepped in

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_03]: After I mean clearly he had plenty of lurk

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Lork plenty of orc legions

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Under his command orc lor or baying him, you know, he had given them orders

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_03]: to never pass him in his

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_03]: The the tower that he had stolen from finrunt but without reporting in and that's why he caught

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_03]: baron in that group of

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_03]: L's disguised as orcs because they tried to sneak past without reporting in so

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_03]: There's definitely a long history of sarron being in control of the orcs

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_03]: But he did not himself create them. I I think you're right there

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_03]: But thank you for writing in leila. Yes, definitely and you know all all speculations are of interest

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, let's go to bending the knee. We've got an email from sarah el

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Who says I wanted to hear more of your discussion on os and if I may equate that with pledging

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I am asking this because I want to know if tolkien was reflecting the times or if he was shitting light on his moral framework on your word

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I am asking this in reference to the act of kneeling and pledging to eddhar

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02]: It seems to me that the writing

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Slash show takes the position that if you kneel to eddhar

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_02]: You are therefore bad

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And you are branded as bad

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yet the humans we see kneeling are in fear for their lives

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And are only doing it to survive is tolkien saying that if you don't die for your principles or your way of life

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_02]: You are bad or evil on the wrong side not to be trusted

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Now of course, I haven't read or watched the entire plot line

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Of the story but I refer to estrid

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_02]: She appears to regret the brand and the kneeling to eddhar

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And I could see myself wanting to live and kneeling also

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't think that my personality would change or that I was a bad person for surviving

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And we see all this suspicion from our on dear

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_02]: What is tolkien trying to say is his world so black and white?

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you think it reflects the time in which he lived or do I have it all wrong?

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And she does turn out to be a bad person. And if that is the case, what about theo?

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02]: He has he also has a brand does the brand turn your soul or is the soul already bad

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I think this goes to the final thoughts you were discussing about galadriel and elrond as you were finishing your podcast

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Is she bad just because of the interaction with sarron or do we all have a dark side that is just waiting for the chance to take over?

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is what happens to all the characters that kneel. I guess that's the whole point of the story, right corruption

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, by the way, thanks for all you do long time listener not one to write in

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this is another one of these instances where let's not confuse

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_03]: The storyteller's intentions with tolkien's actual purpose. Yeah, I have a bit of a letter here

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_03]: after the

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Final volume of lord of beings came out. He got a lot of letters

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_03]: from readers

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_03]: either applauding or

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Decrying the fact that froto failed and yet was allowed to live

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, some people said, you know, oh, you know

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_03]: He failed morally. He should not continue. You know, he shouldn't be praised for what he did. You know, he was a failure quote-unquote and

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Tolkien, I think rightly points out that froto was faced with

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Experience that was beyond his ability to resist

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And his whole point was all of us

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Have a point beyond which we cannot resist and

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's an actual text from one of the letters he wrote about this

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Believe me. It was not until I read this letter about

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Frodo's moral failings that I had myself any idea how topical such a situation might appear to be in

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_03]: 1956

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Which is of course shortly after the second world war

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I did not foresee that before

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_03]: The tale was published

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_03]: We should enter a dark age in which the technique of torture and disruption to personality would rival that of mortor and the ring

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And present us with the practical problem of honest men of goodwill broken down into apostates and traitors

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I think Tolkien would absolutely be on the side of all the humans who are kneeling to Adar

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Because they had reached a breaking point

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I picture

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Estrid and her mother because she does allude to her mother at some point

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Mealing with the prospect of becoming

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Baby makers for orcs not to put too find a point on it

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, and I think somehow Estrid's mother found a way after they were both branded

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_03]: For estrid to escape

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_03]: While she remained behind

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And that is the survivor guilt that estrid is dealing with this is purely speculation on my part

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_03]: but

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_03]: You know there's a whole bunch of stuff about oaths throughout lord of the rings and the somberlion and you know

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_03]: The oath of feanor was terrible because it was a bad oath. It was um

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_03]: blasphemous

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And whether you kept it or broke it didn't matter, you know, he were basically done

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_03]: On the other hand out on

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Is unwilling to lay any oath on the fellowship

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Because he remembers what happened with the oath of feanor, right?

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And you know from a purely personal standpoint

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Quakers friends will say we don't take oaths at all because the implication is well, you never know

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I might be lying to you unless I take an oath and then of course i'm not lying

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Right no

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_03]: truthfulness in the heroic cultures that Tolkien was drawing from is a mark of

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_03]: nobility

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_03]: It was a way for people to distinguish themselves from what they unfortunately considered just the lower classes

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's why you get a lot of emphasis on the importance of oaths particularly the Rohitrim

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And that of course reflects the whole

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Anglosaxon tradition of you know taking oaths and and keeping them and so

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_03]: So I don't think

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_03]: That it is um

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_03]: An indication that if you you know if you bend the knee that doesn't mean you're evil

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Basically, you may become evil or you may

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Be forced into doing evil that you did not want to do

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't know. What do you think?

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I I think

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Free will is at the core of Tolkien's

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_02]: work excellent point the

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_02]: The whole idea of free will and Tolkien's work is sort of free will within god's plan, right? So

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_02]: It the ring would have been destroyed

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And gallum had a part to play with it play an end. Yes. Yes, but gallum had the choice of whether to

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_02]: willingly help Frodo

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Or be forced into it by Ero's hand

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And the former would have saved his soul the latter did not yeah, and he chose evil in the end

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think Tolkien believes

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_02]: You have the free will to pursue your own salvation for lack of a better word

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, again, this is Tolkien's worldview. I don't necessarily subscribe to this worldview. Sure. Um, but

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I think Tolkien was very into like your personal free will your personal journey

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and sort of free will in the balance for your soul

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and then

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_02]: God's plan will always have its way in the end

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: An Ero's plan in Tolkien's universe will always have its way. It's bebumi

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Spibbumi again, you know, yeah, I don't think

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Doing what you need to do to survive would be categorized as evil

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it depends it depends too, right? Like

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have to kill someone else to save your own life. I think that's a real

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_02]: uh, that that's a real like

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Dilemma there right that is an evil act

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Unless you're a soldier

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I I yes. Well again, we can we can talk all about

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Sanction killing and that's a different right guest

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm thinking in terms of how Tolkien might have you did at this point

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I have my breath somewhat differing views on the whole thing

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. Yeah, but what I mean is, you know, you you can be placed in situations where

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I I think self-interest doesn't and survival instinct does not trump morality

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But there's also many instances where it does trump morality. I think you know, I I yeah

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd rather swear if someone is going to kill me

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I have a family. I would rather swear a false oath than be killed

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, I don't think that makes you a bad person and I and I don't think Tolkien would have

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Thought that either no, I don't think so either

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_03]: But now let's frame it a little differently instead of asking what is Tolkien trying to say

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_03]: What do we see the showrunners trying to say in all this?

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a good question

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I think they're making it so Estrid can be redeemable

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Now we haven't seen the finale and we know in episode seven she didn't appear

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think they're going to give her the opportunity to be redeemed

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And I would also ask what does she need to be redeemed from?

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know of anything evil that she did at this point. She has attacked

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Is Seldor like three times now?

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Well

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Because she didn't know who he was

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Because she has been forced into a position of survival

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_02]: But even after I think the the most I'm not saying I would do it but but that you know

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I I understand the first couple times

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_03]: The the time when the third time with with the supper monster

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I understand that and but what I what I mean is

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I I think that after he sets her free and she still

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Right goes for the sword now. I'm starting to not think that that's

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I do think she has something to work out

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure, I I mean, I think you know, she's done a lot of dark things and is kind of in a dark place and

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Is struggling to survive and in the ways that she knows right?

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, right and then now that her fiance has shown up

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, there'll be be another twist to all of that. Yeah, so well see we haven't seen them in a while

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_02]: No, we haven't and I'm not sure we will see this right away from that whole plot line. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I expect that we will return. Um, at least to pull out gear in the episode

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I think so too

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I think which may or may not mean estrid will be showing up as well

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_02]: That's true or perhaps the polar gear polar gear rights

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_02]: The citizens of polar gear will be trying to ally with the wild men and win them over to their side instead of right

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_02]: You know treat them as the enemy and treat them as adars people

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's for theo because she does ask specifically about theo

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that his soul is already bad. Um, no, I don't even think that he is attracted to evil

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I do think he is attracted to power

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Um

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And that is of course in in Tolkien's language

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_03]: You know a very very risky thing if not outright evil from the beginning. I don't think it is

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_03]: But again under his circumstance the people circumstance of his people

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Feeling powerless feeling frustrated feeling teenage boy angst whatever

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_03]: sorts of things

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_03]: He actually said of of that sort which made the mark that that they're calling the brand

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe he'll become the witch king of angst mar

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Well done. Well done. Who knows five points

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_03]: But he said when I held it, I felt powerful

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And that is a very seductive feeling as we know

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think the big seducer in this whole season certainly demonstrates that

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're right. I think you're right. Also, you know who else coveted power and turned out fine

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_02]: The lad drill

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, there you go

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Right she came to Middle-earth because she wanted her own realm

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And now we're back to your point of you know free will and choice and she does

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_03]: You know in Lord of the Rings we see her making

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_03]: The the good choice the right choice, right?

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Marilyn we're about halfway through the feedback

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's take a quick break before we get back to this episode. Okey-doke

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Hey mark, I was listening to paramour the other day and it really made me think about the amygdala and the olympic system

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_00]: You just made those words up, didn't you what paramour?

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_00]: We're the nevermind the music podcast where one musician and one psychologist talk songwriting and the mind one song at a time

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_05]: We'll hear everything from green day and outcast to stevie wonder and duelipa

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_05]: And we mostly try to stay on topic except for when we don't want to never mind the music wherever you get your podcast

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And we're back it's time to talk about tom bombardill. Oh, yes. You want to read sarah's

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure thing. Sarah L sent us an email

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I was also wondering could tom bombardill be tolkien's desire for all humans

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_03]: It seems to me that he would love for humans to have a certain respect for the natural world as tom does

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe tom is tolkien

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think?

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Is tom a self-insert

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Is tom a tomisoo?

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what you call it. Um, there's been a lot of people who speculated that tom is tolkien and I

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Would go so far as to say I think he definitely reflects tolkien's views on a number of things

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_03]: But I also know from the letters that tolkien had a criticism for him in that he was

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_03]: A natural pacifist and therefore

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Of little to no use as he saw it

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_03]: In dealing with these issues of power and domination and and saut on about to wipe over the world and

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_03]: That he would be the last to survive and so forth. So

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_03]: He represents poor tolkien

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Um

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_03]: A couple of things the embodiment of the spirit natural spirit of the berkshire countryside for example

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I think he represents really nothing more than himself

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_03]: He's an enigma and again tolkien said specifically that every world has enigmas in it and tom bombardill's

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Is one of the enigmas of the earth so

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_03]: To try and say, you know

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_03]: What he is

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_03]: That was something that was just never well other than eldest

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and my own personal read is he's he is a physical embodiment of the song when it was first song

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Which does not mean that he is aro because he did not sing the song. He embodied it

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, that's that's my best answer. What's yours?

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean I'm all for the tom bombardill is the

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_02]: embodiment of the inalindalé of the of the song of the music of the inor

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, that's where I'm at and I'll I'll give you my

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_02]: My funny debunking of why tom can't be tolkien is that there's a whole thing where tolkien says

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I like walking and talking and I don't like doing them together

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Right

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And tom is always talking and chatting and singing while he's walking right. You know good point. All right

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we've got more bombardill feedback venessa's back with another voicemail

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Hi everyone venessa from san osa again

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Just uh was listening to your feedback podcast this week

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Um

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yay, my voicemail got on. Yeah, I did it right. Um, anyway

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Just I want to thank you guys too for just

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You seem like you really enjoy your fans and that's just such a delight

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And just again

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You guys are awesome and thank you for that and all that you do

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Had a completely random thought pop it in my head

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_01]: As I was listening to the podcast this week

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I don't think that there's any lore that would support this idea

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_01]: um

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_01]: That I know of so, um, please correct me if if there is but

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_01]: In the way that the elves and the men are the children of aluvatar

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And the dwarves are the children of ala

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder if some way or if in some way

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Hobbits are the children of tom bombardill

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Because there's so many characteristics that they share

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and I know

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Um hobbits are sort of they represent

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Tolkien's childhood and that

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_01]: um

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That idyllic role kind of life that he just led as a child that um

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So I I get that

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But I was just thinking, you know, just in terms of how much they just enjoy life and they just enjoy being in the moment

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they don't think about really the outside world. They think about their community

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But that all seemed like traits that tom bombardill also shares

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, I just thought I would throw that out there and get your thoughts on it. Um, have a great week guys

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Take care

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, thanks. Thank you so much finessa and thanks for the kind words also

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I hope those sizzling fajitas were really good when they finished cooking

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just I'm just joking around

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, marillon, can I take a crack at this before you tell me? I was gonna ask you to do it first

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_02]: You go first this time to me

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_02]: there are only

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_02]: two sets of children of aluvatar

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_02]: elves and men

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And then one exception that was made for al-a's creations the dwarves

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and everything every other

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_02]: sapien every other sentient

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Humanoid has to be an offshoot of those things

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that right? So I have to be an offshoot of men. I just doesn't make sense

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, no, I think you're absolutely right and that also includes the the drudine the rouge

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and you know, of course the done londings are more obviously, but yes

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I completely agree with that that hobbits are

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_03]: intended as

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_03]: as you say an offshoot of humans because

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_03]: They are so similar in their preferences

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_03]: To humans just some humans. I mean, obviously there's different hobbits that for different things

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_03]: That doesn't mean that they don't reflect a lot of what tom represents

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Because they're both interested in

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_03]: You know rural aspects, they're not as much interested in in book learning and knowledge

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_03]: They're not as interested in craft and skill and so forth the difference between them is

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Hobbits are still engaging with the environment. There's still to some degree imposing their role on the environment. They're agriculturalists

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Tom is more of a bot

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Hmm

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, he these are terms that Tolkien actually uses himself

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Tom observes he takes delight in the thing itself. He's a contemplative

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_03]: the hobbits

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_03]: They gotta eat

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_03]: They've moved into regions that were long

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_03]: regions that were tilled

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_03]: In the in the second age by and in the early third age by the the folk new minora that came north

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And by other humans

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_03]: So their attitudes towards nature are somewhat different

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean the hobbits cut down a whole bunch of trees to

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Keep the old forest from crossing the hedge that they built which is also of course an imposition

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Tom doesn't even cut down old man willow. Right

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_03]: so

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Hobbits are much more interventionist than tom for all their

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Pastoral idyllic approach to the countryside and also we know how to have that adventurous nature within them

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_03]: That's how I'm not have right right most hobbits don't want to go out of the shard

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_03]: But there are the few exceptions who do and thank goodness for you know, the rest of the world, right? Right

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I I do like this idea of tom leaving his mark on the hobbits though

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I think uh, we're gonna see the hermit herd hobbits

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_02]: You know

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_02]: The hermit herds hobbits also

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Wouldn't it be hilarious if like one like radigast comes and meets tom bombardill

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And they're just smoking pipe weed together and radigast says I could get used to this and tom goes wait

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not what I was trying to help you with never

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And and radigast gets caught up in the forest and we never see him again

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it could be interesting. It certainly would be one interpretation

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we're gonna see tom help the hobbits get the shire, right?

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I think he's gonna say well, you know what i'm about to head

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_02]: You know now that this dark wizard business is behind us

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's head back by the wily window where I where I was from

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll show you the way

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think tom's gonna bring them back to uh, or perhaps we'll just start walking and they'll follow

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it could be it could be. I mean he seems to be pretty good at appearing and disappearing

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know if he's interested in that long a journey

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Embodied and on foot and leading a bunch of I'll draw him a map

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_03]: He might draw them a map or give him directions or whatever but um

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_03]: It does say that, you know, they were facing this pretty severe obstacle of the misty mountains

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And it wasn't until the shadow began to grow

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_03]: In greenwood and humans began to populate the area more that they decided all right

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's just see what's on the other side of these mountains and that's what led them

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_03]: one by one the three different groups to um

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_03]: To travel over and come into brie and

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Audiador generally right

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you for your voice melvin. I said and we do enjoy our fans. I like we absolutely do enjoy our fans

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_03]: It's wonderful to to have

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_03]: These conversations if not face-to-face then through uh all the different marvels of technology

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I we've been encouraging people to do voice mails for like a year and venessa's got it

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_02]: championed. So thank you venessa. Please keep them coming. We love the go venessa go venessa

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, so the next section is

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody complaining about

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_02]: The tom bomba dill line the gandalf line line. Yes. The line. You want to start with nil f

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I will start with nil f who'd sent us an email

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Hello hounds of lore that sounds very room here. I'm somehow thank you. Neil. I like that

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_03]: In regards to the tolkien quote with bombadill

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought they used that quote simply to code the stranger as gandalf

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Something they seemed to do once an episode he appears in this season

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_03]: As soon as bombadill said it, I thought oh gandalf says this later

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_03]: They must be saying gandalf heard this echoed before

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_03]: just a thought

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Honorable mention bombs and his blue coat and yellow boots

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, tolkien's quotes are bigger than his works honestly sometimes

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Like for example, I went to my mother's house a few months ago

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And I saw that she had

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, this probably wasn't a few months ago. This is probably years ago now

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, I saw she had something with embraded on it not all those who wander are lost

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_02]: She goes to me. Isn't that beautiful? I said absolutely and it was when tolkien wrote it too

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And she was like what she had no idea it was from the lord of the rings

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I think I think tolkien's quotes sometimes. I mean we we included a

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_02]: An excerpt from a poem he wrote edith in our wedding vows, you know that yeah, so we that's pretty amazing

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_02]: he's got he's got

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_02]: great lines

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And they I guess they just really wanted to include it in the show

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what they do with it because there's a lot of speculation out there

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Including some of our emails come here. Yeah

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_03]: That was it, you know, was it a complete misconstruing of the meaning? Was it a another hint that this is Gandalf?

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think I think it's Gandalf. Well once again, Bombadilla's being an enigma which was his

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_03]: According to tolkien his function in the world

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_03]: So well I'm prepared to let it be a mystery until the showrunners show us more of what they're actually doing here

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's hear a defense of the line from e-hoop

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, maybe I'm less than 100 synced with y'all

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm seeing Bombadilla's use of the line is highly appropriate and very cool story wise

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_02]: What I'm hearing is that he is using it from the other end rather than you ought you ought to kill folks without need

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_02]: He's saying you can't save everyone

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Against other needs you should say on your path that fits tom be perfectly

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_02]: In the sense we've seen of not messing with things needlessly

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_02]: He could possibly save more foolish hobbits by chopping down old man willow to weave withy baskets and sell at his renaissance fair booth

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Or turn out all the barrowites to return to their master shriveled and formless

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But they're all acting according to their natures and that isn't his trip

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Gandalf needs to get leveled up and he leaves to save and if he leaves to save nori and poppy he could destroy all

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_02]: They fought for and suffered for

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. Yeah, it's totally straight out of empire strikes back. Yes. Thank yeah

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Saying you can't save every last living thing

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you but if complete your training you do

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll save a heck of a lot more than you're just your two short friends

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And this suggests a point of tension where Gandalf turns the line on its head

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Arriving at the conclusion that mercy and saving his friends is more important

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Than any fate or destiny and thus it enters his lexicon, but not as originally used

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll see how that turns out. I guess all in all i'm very into this season thus far

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I I do like the idea that Gandalf heard that line and said

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, but with a twist

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_03]: It's certainly possible

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And I mean it also could come down to what we've been saying

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Other emails tonight about the whole thing of free will right that

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I have always maintained

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_03]: The way that out of his plan is best manifested is when everybody is free to make their own choices

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And they make choices that are not coerced by other wills

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_03]: They could be going for that and saying

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, even

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Tom bombardill who's a bit strange but seems to have wisdom that I lack

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Has implied that I shouldn't save my friends

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_03]: But I'm gonna do that because that's my free will and that's my choice and it turns out to be the right thing

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know spoiler alert for the empire strikes back from 1982. I think it was

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It worked and it was exactly what happens

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly right Luke makes the choice and that that is what makes him part of the lightside not

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_02]: training training training

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, right

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And you know the folks at at the prancing pony podcast talked about the trolley problem and

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you save the one person who you know versus the

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_03]: You know

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_03]: However many number of people in the trolley car by switching the tracks so that it hits your friend instead of

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_03]: whatever

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the the way the trolley problem was always presented to me was not about somebody you know

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It was about okay. You have

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_02]: One you have you have like five people on the track right or three multiple people on the track

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And the train will hit them if you do nothing

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_02]: The trolley will hit them whatever

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there's one person on the bypass

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I see and so you are actually harming fewer people

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_02]: If you change the direction of the train, but you're harming a person who was not in the wrong spot

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Who was actually following the rules? Okay. Well, that's a lot more complex

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's more complex for sure. Uh, so I I I don't know

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if this is a trolley problem

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's more

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's it's just more

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Methodology on how to save the world right like do you focus on individual needs or do you focus on?

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Big battles right?

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I mean how many times did we hear nori say I feel as though he came to us for a reason

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's right and I I think if he saves I will be happy if he goes to save nori

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I think that's his right decision. I think I think that's how he will become worthy

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that he he you know nobody gets left behind I think he learned that a lot from the harfuts

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Interesting. Okay. Yeah, nobody walks along and he certainly heard them say that wait. What if tom's testing him here, right?

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Are you gonna follow blindly my instructions or are you gonna think for yourself and do what you feel is right?

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And is it more important to you to become a powerful wizard?

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Or is it more important for you to be someone who can rescue people who are in need? Right?

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, e-hoop has another part of the more perhaps it was a second email

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure because Nancy does such a good job formatting things. I never know where one email starts at one end

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_03]: It's true for those of you who are listening to your email and say is that exactly what I wrote

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_03]: She sometimes does she doesn't rewrite anything don't get that impression, but she might just you know

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Drill down to the pith of it because you know, you don't want to split it up to be thematically

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_02]: With other things right?

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And we don't want to be reading praises of ourselves all night long too because that gets boring after all

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It sure does sure does so

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_02]: um

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh talk about this. It is kind of a pivot into hobbit lore

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Would you like to take it maryland?

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_02]: e-hoops, uh, hard email

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And then and then when you get to the images, let's talk about it because I think we only need

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: The first line the first image. I think we just need the line from that

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm two pods behind so pardon me if it's been covered now, but here are my thoughts on a subject

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I haven't seen or heard covered

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_03]: We've seen the hardfuss and now the stours although they really got the names pretty backwards to my mind

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I see it as nearly inevitable that the phallohides make an appearance real question just being when

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Will it be this season or later? I'm suspecting this season just about the time next time we return to the stours

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_03]: When they do show up, I think the attached passages from the scouring of the shire probably give us a good hint of what we'll see

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Since we're seeing primitive early versions and we've got bombadil nearby

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I'd like to see a lot of hunters in primitive camo mud paint and bits of natural material on their heads for instance

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And maybe with some vaguely culty, but one sided since tom bombadil would have it relationship with tom bombadil

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_03]: The masked hunters show up to bully the stours do some damage and then the phallohides pop up all around and start

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Killing folk that needed the hunter's panic and scatter

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Hopefully not reminiscent of ewoks at all

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, although I would cheerfully accept some cannibalism humor. Maybe initially threatened to eat the stranger

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_03]: peace ehoop so the

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_03]: image is from a text

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_03]: In which it says

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_03]: He it starts in the middle of the line

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_03]: But I think the part that's relevant is even in bilbo's time the strong phallohiders strain

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Could still be noted among the greater families such as the tooks and the masters of buckland. Yeah

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_03]: So i'm pretty sure that he took this text from

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_03]: um concerning hobbits that appears at the beginning of lord of the rings

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And um, I'm not altogether certain

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_03]: That I agree with that precise interpretation. I think the image of the tooks

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_03]: in tookland chasing out all the um

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_03]: The humans, you know because they they can hide in their hills and they can shoot them with arrows and so on and so on

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Might have influenced ehoops interpretation here a little bit

[01:05:00] [SPEAKER_03]: um because the phallohides

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_03]: They were taller. They slimmer they loved trees

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_03]: They also were the ones who dealt with elves

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And they are skillful in language and song

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And hand crafts

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, they were not tillers. They were hunters. So in that part I can see yeah, that might chime with what ihup is running here

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. They were often leaders or clan chief dens and they were two groups

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_03]: But i'm not sure that that's necessarily because of military prowess

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_03]: For lack of a better word

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I think there is a sense, you know anytime tolkin mentions elves

[01:05:42] [SPEAKER_03]: You have to take notice because that usually means elves in connection with non-elvish people

[01:05:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Some kind of ennoblement

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Or increase or improvement in in stature

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_03]: quote unquote nobility

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[01:05:58] [SPEAKER_03]: You know farsightedness

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So we know that the tooks are do have a fair bit of phallohide connection in them

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_03]: um, but

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know. I mean think about pippin and his whole response to all the battle stuff that was going on

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think he was there. I don't think it would have been there if he hadn't sworn allegiance to first denathor and then

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_03]: to foudamere

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just not

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know these things a good battle him though

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Something like that over tomatoes yeah

[01:06:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And golly given that we're now through season or through episode seven

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_03]: We've only got one more episode this season. I really hope they don't introduce the phallohide

[01:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: We've got enough to do with already not this season, but I could I would be fine with them introducing the next season

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I've been surprised with how fast they're resolving the oreggie on plotline

[01:06:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, I mean the fact that it goes on for a couple hundred years in the books does not necessarily mean

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_03]: They're gonna do it and no, but I

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I could have totally seen them dragging out oreggion for two seasons

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_02]: You know and focusing on on new manure for a season and then after new manure

[01:07:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, you know what I mean, you know, I sorry. I have to I have to use my Frodo

[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: My Frodo keep your secrets

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Fair enough

[01:07:23] [SPEAKER_03]: No, I I think there's a lot more complexity to the new manure story

[01:07:28] [SPEAKER_03]: That we have yet to really start peeling back and I know your feelings about new menores that we could have saved them until

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Season I would have rather just split this up. But yeah, sure

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_03]: sure

[01:07:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's all right. We're all here now. Just see what happens. I'm I'm for phallohides in season three

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just gonna say it here. All right. That's my wager. There will be phallohides in season three

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You've convinced me ehoop

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Dignity digging too deep with the dwarves is Nancy's next topic and she has an email from Kaiser

[01:07:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, David. John and Marilyn thoroughly enjoyed episode five and glad to see it maintaining the higher standard of season two so far

[01:08:06] [SPEAKER_02]: The season has me hooked in a way that never really happened in season one

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I've been thinking about the dwarves following this episode

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_02]: If I recall from the lord of the rings and I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong on lore

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It has been a while since my last reading

[01:08:20] [SPEAKER_02]: There was not much stead in the lord of the rings

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: About the rings given to dwarves and not much more about the dwarves themselves in the third age

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Other than their greed for riches preoccupation with digging

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And digging too deep

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And so gimli seems like an upset an exceptional dwarf one above it all

[01:08:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't remember much about the other dwarves at the council of elrond

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It seems to me

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Is right. It seems a shame to have been left with the impression of an entire race as greedy and reckless in pursuit of riches

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So I really love the dimension being added by the show

[01:08:58] [SPEAKER_02]: We have seen them as fully fleshed out people through Disa and doran three and four

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Ordinary cares and worries strong and vulnerable loving and at and difficult at times

[01:09:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh relationships and friendships real people the portrayal of the influence of the ring on doran three

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: May be not be lore accurate. Is it or maybe filling a lore hole, but I find it enormously satisfying

[01:09:26] [SPEAKER_02]: greed has ever been his way

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_02]: as doran four says

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: but

[01:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Greed has never been oh, I'm sorry. I'm misreading here

[01:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Greed has never been his way as doran four says but we see him turning to greed now

[01:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: The desire to dig more into the mountain for the jewels ores and gold the ring tribute and extorting the emissaries for the six

[01:09:48] [SPEAKER_02]: other lords

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So now we see a reason other than something innate to dwarves corruption as a root of their bad

[01:09:56] [SPEAKER_02]: reputation qc no doran three strutting

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Through the minds as jone jet blasts out

[01:10:04] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a great addition and massive credit to the writers in the jazz they are playing here

[01:10:09] [SPEAKER_02]: If saran had hoped that the dwarven rings would corrupt them in a way he could dominate

[01:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: We know that won't work

[01:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But in causing them to turn inwards preoccupied with digging in dark places

[01:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: He may not have them to serve under him

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: but

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_02]: They also won't be standing against him effectively taking them off the board

[01:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Was this a happy accident for saran?

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for the continuing excellent coverage kaiser

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_02]: You know

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just gonna say I think that the rings in general

[01:10:46] [SPEAKER_02]: We're not you know, we we know that they were not specifically designed for the different races in the books

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Other than the elvish ones which were pretty much just designed by killibrand war for the elves right

[01:10:56] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think the the difference between the mannish and dwarven effects is that both of those ring types and the one ring itself

[01:11:03] [SPEAKER_02]: really

[01:11:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Sort of highlight and elevate the worst impulses of the races

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Or the inherent impulses of the races

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: of middle earth

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the dwarves their fatal flaw is greed right that is that is something they

[01:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess it kind of twists what makes them good

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And turns it to evil right

[01:11:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So they they are really good at making these beautiful things so the rings twist their impulses into an evil one of greed

[01:11:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and then the men

[01:11:39] [SPEAKER_02]: they

[01:11:40] [SPEAKER_02]: What are they good at they're not really good at anything no

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: No, but that's a little harsh. No, they're they're they're good

[01:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: They're they're good at you know advancing things and building civilizations and

[01:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Growth and so it twisted into the will the power to dominate right the desire to dominate and control

[01:11:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the elves

[01:12:02] [SPEAKER_02]: They are serial longevity, right? So they

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Preserve things with their rings. So I think it really it really it's not about the rings

[01:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It's more about the rings

[01:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: taking something that's part of the people wearing them

[01:12:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[01:12:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Elevating it

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I seem to remember a phrase in which Tolkien refers to the dwarven rings as

[01:12:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Awakening in them

[01:12:33] [SPEAKER_03]: A lust for for gold and for riches and so forth

[01:12:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Was it there to begin with possibly certainly the potential had to have been there

[01:12:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And as you say it's so important if we come from a lore base to remember

[01:12:49] [SPEAKER_03]: None of the rings were made specifically for anybody except the three elven rings. So if you view all of them as being sort of

[01:13:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Enhancement capacitors or something like that

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[01:13:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously because of his long plant term plan of making the one ring to dominate all the other rings

[01:13:11] [SPEAKER_03]: It failed in so far as the dwarves were not susceptible to being dominated, right?

[01:13:18] [SPEAKER_03]: They were susceptible to

[01:13:21] [SPEAKER_03]: That greediness which I don't think is the same thing as saying the whole race is inherently greedy from the get-go

[01:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. Sure. Yeah, that's why I tried to sort of hedge what I said originally because I think I think

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: The point is that they make these beautiful things and they

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Desire to continue making that beauty for themselves and to share

[01:13:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And the rings corrupt that desire to make beauty in the desire and makes it the desire to hoard beauty

[01:13:47] [SPEAKER_03]: right and in case of humans

[01:13:49] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously he has plenty to choose from does sauron and so

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_03]: In that sense, he's choosing who he's going to give these rings to

[01:13:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And we know that at least three of them were new minorians of a particular bent that were already deep into domination

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[01:14:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And presumably he picked the others according to what he saw as their potential

[01:14:16] [SPEAKER_03]: to be willing to

[01:14:18] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, right

[01:14:20] [SPEAKER_03]: receive his quote-unquote tutelage which eventually comes becomes domination

[01:14:26] [SPEAKER_02]: To further dominate other peoples. Yeah, and you know, I think something true of men in tolkin's universe

[01:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And men in the real humans in the real world, I should say

[01:14:36] [SPEAKER_02]: um is

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that a lot of people in tolkin's universe especially really believe in that great man theory of history

[01:14:44] [SPEAKER_02]: unfortunately and so

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Because the the elves live forever. So they don't need to worry about being remembered because they're going to be around

[01:14:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But men want to have immortality through

[01:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Doing great things and so sauron twists that

[01:15:00] [SPEAKER_02]: revokes the gift of death or doesn't revoke it but keeps it at bay

[01:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And also, you know promises something of of a legacy for these people right promises that their names will be

[01:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Famous in a way, but perhaps he'll be infamous

[01:15:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And possibly also just says to them look where this ring in your live forever

[01:15:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he doesn't say how they will live forever. Yeah, saurons really good at perverting

[01:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: People's desires right is really like distorting things beyond recognition

[01:15:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Learning what it is they want most and giving it to them but giving it to them in the most pernicious way possible

[01:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's time we talk about some Nazgul

[01:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh marine D wrote in

[01:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Want to read that one? Sure

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_03]: There has naturally been a lot of speculation about who the Nazgul will be hasn't there just marine

[01:15:56] [SPEAKER_03]: It will be interesting to see if the showrunners choose people who are all bad to the core

[01:16:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Or if the power of the rings turns people who are on the cusp like arian further to evil

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Can the rings only amplify inherent evil in men or turn men evil?

[01:16:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Would even a good man like Elrond quickly fall to the dark side if he accidentally put on a ring?

[01:16:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Would it affect a man with no desire for power?

[01:16:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And how much can the rings create that desire versus amplify what was already there?

[01:16:26] [SPEAKER_03]: With Boromir, Gandalf and Galadriel. It was the one ring so it works differently. Yes, and I'm glad marine that you pointed that out

[01:16:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm also wondering how rings designed for one species affect another

[01:16:37] [SPEAKER_03]: We saw an elf affected by a prototype of a ring designed for men

[01:16:41] [SPEAKER_03]: To dwarf rings affect men and elves the same way presumably they are custom made

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_03]: So again back to our earlier point initially the rings were not made specifically for a specific race

[01:16:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so this is a show creation. That's why we have right. We have to separate out

[01:16:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Lore and show creation

[01:16:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And so that means that we're in the realm of speculation because we're still the story is still unfolding

[01:17:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah

[01:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I you know as to the question about elendil

[01:17:09] [SPEAKER_02]: You know would he fall to the dark side if he put on a ring?

[01:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think he would put on a ring. I understand the point. Uh, would he accidentally put on a ring?

[01:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, if it if it fell on his hand in in elijah wood style from the movie

[01:17:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I think he'd just take it off. I think he wouldn't I think that's the point is someone who would put on a ring

[01:17:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Would be corrupted by it

[01:17:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure because they're already reaching for something beyond

[01:17:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Their natural estate right whatever lies south on this telling him right the whole point of the faithful is this acceptance of the gift of men

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Right acceptance of that acceptance of

[01:17:45] [SPEAKER_02]: The the valar and acceptance of their small place

[01:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: in errors greater plan

[01:17:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas the nonschool the men who will become nonschool are clearly going to be people who do not want to be

[01:17:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Put in the position of just a small piece of the plant. They want to be a big player

[01:18:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Right and they want to live forever

[01:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you really want to live forever?

[01:18:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's the old be careful what you ask where you just might get it, isn't it right? Right

[01:18:17] [SPEAKER_02]: well

[01:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Di Renner, I think i'm saying that right. I hope so

[01:18:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, hi

[01:18:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I must address the lords running turen gorthod

[01:18:30] [SPEAKER_02]: There were dead men buried there thousands of years ago the show runners got that part right

[01:18:35] [SPEAKER_02]: The barrows were built in the first age by the ancestors of the edine migrating towards balerian

[01:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: At the end of the second age when the dunedine established the north kingdom of arnor

[01:18:46] [SPEAKER_02]: They review the barrows of their ancestors and continue to use them burying their royalty there

[01:18:52] [SPEAKER_02]: However, there is nothing evil about turen gorthod until the great plague of the third age during the angmar

[01:18:58] [SPEAKER_02]: war when the last of the dunedine of cardilon

[01:19:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Hiding in the barrows perished of the plague

[01:19:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Only then does the witch king send the white to inhabit their dead bodies buried in the barrows

[01:19:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Certainly checks all the boxes as far as lures concerned

[01:19:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, in second age

[01:19:20] [SPEAKER_03]: what the show runners are telling us is

[01:19:23] [SPEAKER_03]: So one of the many ways that saurons reawakening was stirring evil in all places

[01:19:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Was that he was

[01:19:33] [SPEAKER_03]: somehow

[01:19:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Causing the spirits of the bodies to act in ways that they did not wish to act

[01:19:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Now that runs contrary to a lot of lore about you know free will and where the spirits of humans go

[01:19:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And they die and how could he bring them back and so on and so on and so on

[01:19:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Let us remember though that sauron is known as the necromancer, which is somebody who

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Manages to reanimate dead bodies

[01:20:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So it is in his wheelhouse. Yeah, just say that

[01:20:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Now whether or not they wanted to do it or not that I don't I'm not sure how we're supposed to tell that because

[01:20:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not really sure I could see much in the way of motivation

[01:20:12] [SPEAKER_03]: right the remnants of the faces of the

[01:20:15] [SPEAKER_03]: whites that they were

[01:20:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Battling with yeah, and and also Tolkien was known to put to create werewolves by putting souls into the wrong bodies too

[01:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Right is sure. I think he this is definitely a power of his so I am totally fine with him being the one awakening

[01:20:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Whites in the first age

[01:20:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Not to mention that

[01:20:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Not to mention that the dunedine have yet to establish the north kingdom of our north. So these are still

[01:20:42] [SPEAKER_03]: The mounds with the ancestors of the edine. Yeah as they were migrating west so

[01:20:49] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[01:20:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Look, it's not it's not in the lore right? It's not in the lore no argument there

[01:20:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I think my my point is it's fine that it's not in the lore. I think this is perfectly a fine jazz hands moment

[01:21:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean again depicting something that had never been depicted before visually

[01:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think they did a really bang up job on it. We're not getting another lord of the rings adaptation anytime soon

[01:21:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I think yeah, I don't think we will

[01:21:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know that's fine right? I think the Peter Jackson ones are really great

[01:21:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I do wish they got more in there right and and so I'm fine with them bringing Tom Bombadil and Barrow whites in

[01:21:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I wish they would leave some quotes out, but I'm fine with them leaving

[01:21:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Bringing certain elements in that we're not present in the second age

[01:21:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I wish that Peter Jackson had gotten more of Tolkien into one or two of his ski moments

[01:21:41] [SPEAKER_03]: But that's another podcast all together. All right fair enough fair enough

[01:21:46] [SPEAKER_03]: You want to read Athena? I will read Athena a

[01:21:49] [SPEAKER_03]: If the gift of man is death

[01:21:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Isn't it sending mixed messages to then reward the new norians with longer life?

[01:21:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I know they also die but giving new minorities a longer life has always felt to be playing into the fear of death

[01:22:04] [SPEAKER_03]: That was developing in men and the envy of elves longer life. This is just one piece of

[01:22:10] [SPEAKER_03]: a larger part

[01:22:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Of why

[01:22:14] [SPEAKER_03]: They were given the gift of the island of new minor

[01:22:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Because they had asked for a place where they could live in peace

[01:22:25] [SPEAKER_03]: That was all they asked for it was the Valar that extended their lives

[01:22:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So that they could have more time to enjoy this and to develop their crafts and to be a flowering of humans

[01:22:37] [SPEAKER_03]: That eventually in their early days

[01:22:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Brought a lot of good

[01:22:42] [SPEAKER_03]: To the humans left behind on Middle Earth

[01:22:45] [SPEAKER_03]: In terms of you know

[01:22:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Wine and agriculture and whatever other kinds of things you want to talk about and they were viewed as kings of man and

[01:22:52] [SPEAKER_03]: revered and so on and so on

[01:22:54] [SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't until

[01:22:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it wasn't until Sauron was stirring but it took it took a while. Yes, it was at the very beginnings

[01:23:06] [SPEAKER_03]: When Sauron was stirring

[01:23:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And Gilgallad wrote his letter that Aldarion brought back to his father

[01:23:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Saying I think the shadow is rising that you get the first signs that the new minorities are saying

[01:23:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I kind of like to live a little bit longer. Yeah

[01:23:22] [SPEAKER_03]: But there was also the connection with the elves, you know, they're frequent visitors. Yeah

[01:23:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, to me, I think that's where I led now is that it was more

[01:23:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Living in proximity to the elves and learning from the elves and you know, they went paleo, right?

[01:23:38] [SPEAKER_02]: They had their own dietary customs that were better than the men around them. They exercised a lot

[01:23:44] [SPEAKER_02]: uh, and and we do know

[01:23:47] [SPEAKER_02]: That men as a lifespans were longer in the first age too, right?

[01:23:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So I they didn't magically get their lifespans extended

[01:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I think this was something that happened over time

[01:23:59] [SPEAKER_03]: To me. That's how I always read it these days. There's also the realization that back then

[01:24:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Having had such close proximity with elves and also recognizing the reality of the valor

[01:24:12] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[01:24:14] [SPEAKER_03]: They were not afraid of death as much as they later became

[01:24:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And so they were prepared when they felt that you know, they were starting to slow down

[01:24:25] [SPEAKER_03]: They were prepared to trust and say I'm I'm willing to give this up now. I'm willing to yield this wonderful

[01:24:32] [SPEAKER_03]: gift of my life in this paradise for

[01:24:35] [SPEAKER_03]: The gift of being able to leave it

[01:24:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Right and not be stuck the way the elves are stuck and at that point I also assume a closer

[01:24:45] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[01:24:46] [SPEAKER_03]: communication between elves and humans and the humans probably better understood

[01:24:52] [SPEAKER_03]: What the elves were realizing now, you know, the first age is over and that was a long and hard age

[01:24:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, oh my gosh, there's a whole bunch more ages coming along and we're stuck

[01:25:02] [SPEAKER_03]: We're not going anywhere

[01:25:04] [SPEAKER_03]: We can't even now

[01:25:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Most of them go to valley north the best we get is to go to tola eresea, which is you know a sweet place

[01:25:13] [SPEAKER_03]: don't get us wrong

[01:25:15] [SPEAKER_03]: But

[01:25:16] [SPEAKER_03]: We're just going to continue existing right until

[01:25:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Whenever arda no longer exists

[01:25:25] [SPEAKER_03]: So

[01:25:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean people who don't understand this read the athrabeth

[01:25:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Which is a section?

[01:25:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh golly, which book is it? It's in one of the histories of Middle Earth

[01:25:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's more goss ring, but it might be

[01:25:38] [SPEAKER_03]: One

[01:25:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Where you have an elf any human talking about this very question, you know who has the raw ordeal

[01:25:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And it also involves a health elf human

[01:25:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Relationships so there's some of that

[01:25:51] [SPEAKER_03]: In it as well

[01:25:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I um

[01:25:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I I don't think that this is just a straight up flip it

[01:25:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Publica swiss these people are living longer. It's the aqueducts. It's the aqueducts that exhibit their lifelands. Let's be honest

[01:26:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's the special wheat on the west side of the island myself

[01:26:09] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, they they brought some of yavanas wheat from valley north

[01:26:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Sudely altered for a mortal climate and said okay, here you go. I like oh and the sheep the sheep were fabulous

[01:26:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, they just needed some good mutton

[01:26:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, some good mutton some aqueducts and you're all set to live 400 years

[01:26:29] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, let's talk about music marilyn. We did a podcast on the music of rings of power at some point

[01:26:35] [SPEAKER_02]: We absolutely did and it was fun. Yeah

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're back and mark the host of nevermind the music

[01:26:43] [SPEAKER_02]: He is here to talk to us about some comment that you made marilyn

[01:26:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I did here we go. Hey y'all

[01:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a bit of a reach but dammit if I can't overthink sometimes. What am I here for?

[01:26:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got to make the grad school payoff eventually

[01:27:02] [SPEAKER_02]: In your episode six coverage marilyn said at the top that the main title theme was sighing

[01:27:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, musically it kind of is

[01:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Sinking in your head that

[01:27:13] [SPEAKER_02]: That opens the theme and comes back a few times

[01:27:17] [SPEAKER_02]: The highest and longest and thus the most noticeable of those notes

[01:27:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Are the two notes a half step apart the smallest distance in this type of music falling

[01:27:29] [SPEAKER_02]: For the past 400 years or so a falling half steps has been referred to in a lot of western art music as the sighing motif

[01:27:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry motive. I know mark did a whole thing on the difference between motifs and motives in the first episode

[01:27:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't want to get that wrong. Sorry mark

[01:27:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, also called the pianto or manheim sigh

[01:27:48] [SPEAKER_02]: It is used to represent grief or crying

[01:27:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Especially when it repeats

[01:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: This interval also opens the middle section of the piece

[01:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Though it's less prominent. Is this on purpose? I don't know, but this is stuff

[01:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: That's pretty well understood by a lot of musicians. So the idea that sure knows about this is not farfetched at all

[01:28:08] [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think marilyn?

[01:28:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's interesting that you picked that theme for it because I was thinking the

[01:28:15] Ah

[01:28:19] [SPEAKER_03]: As the sighing

[01:28:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Because it's descending instead of ascending

[01:28:25] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I I I understood you to talk about what mark's talking about when you were talking about that. It's a falling

[01:28:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. It's a falling line. It's the falling line, which is

[01:28:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Sigh

[01:28:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that's the actual melody that he's he's referring to it was one

[01:28:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I was referring to anyway, and I might even know sung at the time. I can't remember now

[01:28:43] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, this is more talking about that one. I think so mark write in and tell us please

[01:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think so. I don't think so the highest and the longest

[01:28:55] [SPEAKER_02]: A uh our two notes half step apart

[01:28:59] [SPEAKER_02]: That's okay, so that's the yeah, that's what mark's talking about

[01:29:02] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, that's i'm gonna use my music degree and i'm gonna see if that's what mark's talking about

[01:29:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I you're absolutely right because I kept thinking

[01:29:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh

[01:29:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Where's the half step in that but that's what I was there is a half step in the middle

[01:29:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's not the highest that was what I was thinking of the sighing mark if you hear sighing in

[01:29:24] [SPEAKER_03]: That's fine too, you know

[01:29:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, if you haven't people go check out never mind the music. It's a very very good podcast

[01:29:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I just listened to their episode five

[01:29:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Fantastic mark had to be laughing at his story. Nicole's got amazing

[01:29:39] [SPEAKER_02]: You know knowledge drops about about psychology and how it relates to music

[01:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's a really wonderful combination

[01:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll talk about it more at the end in our programming notes, but please go check out never mind the music

[01:29:50] [SPEAKER_02]: It's in our show notes at the link tree go subscribe

[01:29:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Good stuff. They are an affiliate of our network

[01:29:56] [SPEAKER_03]: In whichever line he was talking about I love

[01:30:00] [SPEAKER_03]: all of the

[01:30:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Um history about you know, they actually called it a sighing motif for the mount heim sigh at someone so on

[01:30:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I too took in my undergraduate days took a lot of music theory and so forth

[01:30:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't remember hearing about the mount heim sigh. So maybe it was when I did very deeply there and I just forgot but uh

[01:30:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But that is cool. Yeah, it it might be more in the musicology

[01:30:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Track than the music theory track, right?

[01:30:27] [SPEAKER_02]: There's there is you know music history within music theory too, but I think there's also all these like

[01:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Mmm, it's a really fine line. It's a really fine line when you start talking about the different studies of music

[01:30:41] [SPEAKER_02]: All right lore cast love

[01:30:44] [SPEAKER_02]: You want to talk about eds comment?

[01:30:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Ed 74 from patreon

[01:30:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I might have missed it

[01:30:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Did you cover the origin of the lords of adunier?

[01:30:56] [SPEAKER_03]: That's kind of important I think because it's by their distant who should have been the first ruling queen

[01:31:02] [SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't due to male succession that the line of elendil traces directly to elros

[01:31:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And why despite not having been kings of numinor for many generations. They preserved the royal bloodline

[01:31:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Miriel's grandmother was granddaughter of the lord of andunie

[01:31:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Which brought the faithful strain back to tar palantir

[01:31:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And made miriel and elendil something or other cousins something or other removed

[01:31:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, good point

[01:31:29] [SPEAKER_04]: um

[01:31:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And it is true

[01:31:33] [SPEAKER_03]: You know i'm john you make a point of saying you know there there have been both kings and queens in numinor

[01:31:38] [SPEAKER_03]: That wasn't always the case in the early days. There was actually one queen

[01:31:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I think or the eldest daughter the eldest child of one of the kings was a daughter

[01:31:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think her name was samarian don't that me if that's wrong, but I think that's who it was

[01:31:53] [SPEAKER_03]: and it was her

[01:31:55] [SPEAKER_03]: descendants

[01:31:56] [SPEAKER_03]: That became the lords of adunier

[01:31:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Which now includes of course elendil

[01:32:02] [SPEAKER_03]: and so

[01:32:06] [SPEAKER_03]: He says here miriel's grandmother was granddaughter of the lord of adunier, which is presumably whoever

[01:32:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, selmanian married

[01:32:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Or no her her son would have become the lord of andunie

[01:32:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And so as she as he wrote here brought the faithful strain back to tar palantir

[01:32:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Hmm

[01:32:30] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. Well good point. I appreciate that lord drop because I'm uh

[01:32:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I did not include that in our numinorian stuff. I gotta see here's the thing with the lorkas is I gotta balance it with like

[01:32:41] [SPEAKER_02]: It has to be understandable

[01:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: of course and

[01:32:46] [SPEAKER_02]: There's so much history. That's why I didn't really talk about it. I'll darian and horrendous

[01:32:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Right and interestingly enough it is in eldarian and horrendous that we hear

[01:32:55] [SPEAKER_03]: That that was the first ruling queen

[01:32:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Because they only had one child and it was a daughter. I haven't read old art in horrendous in a long time

[01:33:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I've read it since season one actually

[01:33:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Bring it power. It's good and it's also really interesting to read in the context of of this show

[01:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well everyone's trying to get me due to unfinished tales after the somerilion

[01:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'll reread it when I do that. Well, there you go

[01:33:17] [SPEAKER_02]: All right

[01:33:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Mark has some compliments for you and david

[01:33:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh

[01:33:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Mark's back to say just listen to the lorkas on orcs and I have to say it might be a top five lorhounds pod ever

[01:33:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Such an interesting conversation bonus content maybe but seems pretty essential to me

[01:33:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Bravo, mariland and david to those of you on the fence about the season pass consider this a friendly push

[01:33:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, thanks mark for the the salesmanship. I promise I wouldn't be salesman until the outro

[01:33:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But you can be salesman for me

[01:33:47] [SPEAKER_03]: That's really kind of you mark. I appreciate those and I'm glad that the podcast episode spoke to you so well

[01:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, thank you mark and and great job to you and david. I'm so glad you guys were able to

[01:33:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Keep that going and and not deprive everyone of a lorkas for the week

[01:34:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh goodness. Yes. We can't can't not do our lorkas. Exactly. We were just really lucky that uh

[01:34:10] [SPEAKER_03]: There was an awful lot of really really interesting material out there to bring together and present people

[01:34:15] [SPEAKER_02]: right

[01:34:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Want to go to the south with courtney's email about is amazon to reach for merchandise

[01:34:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Courtney writes in an email. Hi everyone. I've been loving season two of the rings of power

[01:34:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I can't to smogs horde. I love to collect Tolkien related things

[01:34:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Especially with these terrible ad breaks at the worst times in the episodes of the rings of power

[01:34:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought I would buy hard copies of season one so I could watch them without interruption

[01:34:42] [SPEAKER_03]: However, I quickly found out they don't exist

[01:34:45] [SPEAKER_03]: I know physical media is being made less and less but it made me realize there is practically no merchandise for the rings of power

[01:34:53] [SPEAKER_03]: No funko pop no lego sets. No cd vinyl sets for the wonderful music

[01:34:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure there was a special and very specific licensing involved

[01:35:01] [SPEAKER_03]: But I was curious if you had any insights into these kinds of rights with the Tolkien estate

[01:35:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I was most surprised to not see physical media for season one and the season one and two soundtracks

[01:35:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for all your wonderful coverage

[01:35:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I think this is more of an amazon thing than a tolkien thing

[01:35:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's really kind of surprising. I mean we do have all kinds of

[01:35:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Tolkien lego sets for your saxon. Yeah, well so right now

[01:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Um

[01:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Embracer group owns all the the gaming merchandising rights. It's not the tolkien estate right now

[01:35:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Right for lord of the rings at least not for the Silmarillion and other extended works, but yeah

[01:35:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I think they could absolutely cut a deal with embrace your group too embrace your groups hurting for money right now too

[01:35:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So they'd probably jump on it

[01:35:47] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think this is more of an amazon problem. I mean look at you know the expanse the boys

[01:35:53] [SPEAKER_02]: The wheel of time. Where's any of the merch for all that? They're just not doing it and it's really you're right

[01:35:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It's weird. I it's like they're passing up on free money

[01:36:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, they need to call up the mouse and ask them how to do it

[01:36:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm afraid that the absence of cd or vinyl sets for the wonderful music

[01:36:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Reflects more the changing technology of music consumption and I'm with you on this one. Um, yeah

[01:36:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I still have a cd player Courtney and I still

[01:36:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Want to have those solid things. I want to have the dvds so that I can replay these things and and you know do all these things because

[01:36:29] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we ran into this problem when I was in in the library world

[01:36:33] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, how do you acquire?

[01:36:36] [SPEAKER_03]: permanently a streaming

[01:36:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Program, right? How does that work?

[01:36:42] [SPEAKER_03]: You know never mind the fact that if you don't have cds you lose all the wonder and the beauty of the liner notes

[01:36:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, um, they're kind of trying to bring it back with like

[01:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Special editions on spotify and stuff like that, but you're right. It's different. It's very different

[01:36:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not the same thing. I know I know when I was a kid

[01:37:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember I was so into green day and I said to my I begged my dad to bring me to Best Buy to buy

[01:37:06] [SPEAKER_02]: American idiot

[01:37:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And he let me he let me I think they looked at me funny because I was like 11 years old and it was

[01:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: An explicit album

[01:37:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And and I was like I was I felt so scandalized, but I bought it anyway

[01:37:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I bought it anyway and and changed my life changed my life and I probably wore that cd out

[01:37:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's it's really interesting how this is

[01:37:30] [SPEAKER_02]: This has just evolved in as I said like I'm 30 years old now

[01:37:34] [SPEAKER_02]: This has gone from vinyl to

[01:37:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Street to streaming through cds and cassettes and everything in my lifetime during your lifetime. Yeah. Yeah, it's really weird

[01:37:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah

[01:37:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And I always used to go out and buy the dvds right away when they were things that you know

[01:37:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I wanted to keep watching but now of course people are finding, you know

[01:37:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Netflix is dropping films and it's like they've just disappeared altogether

[01:37:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I I'm very concerned about that because we had Westworld completely dropped from HBO. You can't watch it anymore

[01:38:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And then willow

[01:38:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Was dropped by disney and you can't buy it on dvd or watch it on disney

[01:38:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and so yeah, it's it's very concerning very very concerning. I guess people are not really all that interested in in their

[01:38:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Um

[01:38:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Survival into the future because goodness knows

[01:38:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh format migration is a real thing. Yep

[01:38:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And the idea that you know, you've put all your money into this stuff and all you're interested in is the profit here and now

[01:38:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And they're not interested in in legacy

[01:38:38] [SPEAKER_02]: The historian's gonna think that we just like decorated frisbees

[01:38:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And threw them around

[01:38:46] [SPEAKER_02]: An archaeologist is going to discover cds

[01:38:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I hope the archaeologist has a little bit more connection with historians than that

[01:38:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Having you seen foundation. I don't know about it. Well, I have I have

[01:38:59] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. Well everyone

[01:39:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It's been fun

[01:39:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's time to time to wrap up this podcast. Let's talk programming notes quicks

[01:39:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Everyone everyone gather round to hear what's coming on the lower hounds network

[01:39:12] [SPEAKER_02]: This is going to come out after our episodes having covered

[01:39:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So you should have already been able to hear that we did a full recap. I think over two hours

[01:39:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So plenty of content over there

[01:39:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, we are also doing a lower cast this week on the circle of light

[01:39:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So stick around for that and that's for patreon supercast subscribers and season pass holders

[01:39:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh on other shows Agatha all long is in full swing

[01:39:36] [SPEAKER_02]: David and john are going to be covering episode three because alicia's out of town

[01:39:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And david sorry, uh alicia and

[01:39:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Brandon already put out their podcast on

[01:39:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Beetlejuice beetle juice don't say it a third time

[01:39:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, which is the sequel to the original movie

[01:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. I listened to their podcast really great stuff

[01:39:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Then david's been very busy this week. That's why I think part of why he needs a break so that he can

[01:40:03] [SPEAKER_02]: He can get some stuff done. He also did a podcast with john on

[01:40:07] [SPEAKER_02]: The penguin so they did an instant reaction to episode one and apparently they really liked it. So

[01:40:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Very cool

[01:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: On the patreon supercast feed. This is for recurring subscribers only 11 z's number five on pray the 2022 predator movie

[01:40:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Is available

[01:40:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Probably this weekend. We'll see we'll see alicia's busy right now. I know so we'll see when that comes out

[01:40:31] [SPEAKER_02]: but soon

[01:40:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Affiliates

[01:40:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Never mind the music is out with a new episode this week. Never mind the music if you haven't heard me do my spiel about it before

[01:40:42] [SPEAKER_02]: It is a

[01:40:44] [SPEAKER_02]: wonderful podcast with two professors one of music one of psychology

[01:40:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And they are going crazy

[01:40:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Talking about the intersection between the two with pop music. So they did paramour in their first episode this most recent episode

[01:40:59] [SPEAKER_02]: They did true by spandau ballet and the money notes of a middle school dance. So that's that

[01:41:09] [SPEAKER_02]: That you probably you know have heard a million times in your life in every like romantic scene in a movie ever

[01:41:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Were they the ones that started that?

[01:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: What do you mean?

[01:41:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Started the whole

[01:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: No, maybe I don't know

[01:41:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know

[01:41:24] [SPEAKER_02]: um

[01:41:25] [SPEAKER_02]: But they uh, yeah, they go deep into it mark had me laughing a lot on this podcast and and nicole's got a lot of great

[01:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Knowledge drops about sort of what makes a a middle school dance a middle school dance really great podcast

[01:41:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So go check it out

[01:41:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Radioactive ramblings is going to be back this week soon. They are going to be and it might be out by the time

[01:41:44] [SPEAKER_02]: This comes out. I don't know

[01:41:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But on um for fallout lore they're on episode four of their fallout lore coverage on the wasteland beastiary

[01:41:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Huh, so check that out for more for fallout goodies

[01:41:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And so every every now and then when I get tired my long island starts to come out. I'm like full out

[01:42:02] [SPEAKER_02]: You full out

[01:42:04] [SPEAKER_02]: You know

[01:42:05] [SPEAKER_03]: You long island my long island

[01:42:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Give me a bagel

[01:42:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Wish a smear give me some pejuda

[01:42:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I used to do a farmers market for a coffee shop. I worked out out on

[01:42:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And there was this guy who

[01:42:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Was a baker

[01:42:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And he made prosciutto bread and he would go hey, you want my prosciutto bread come get my prosciutto bread five dollar

[01:42:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, yeah, five dollars

[01:42:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was very long island. It was like the most it was the epitome of long island to me

[01:42:34] [SPEAKER_03]: interesting now i'm thinking of uh

[01:42:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Cut me on throat dibbler from the disc world

[01:42:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, that's funny

[01:42:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and then wool shift dust elisha's back with her book club

[01:42:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Check out her feed for details on that but she's covering parts three and four of dust the last book in the wool shift dust silo series

[01:42:56] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, wow

[01:42:59] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of stuff busy people

[01:43:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Busy people indeed these schedules are getting harder and harder to write because there's so much in them

[01:43:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe you so let's just do our quick. Thank yous before we head out of here

[01:43:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have any music line up. So we're gonna we're gonna have well, you know what?

[01:43:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm on my i'm on my laptop instead of my main computer tonight. So I don't have all my all my goodies

[01:43:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But I do have

[01:43:23] [SPEAKER_02]: The names in front of me

[01:43:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So i'm gonna thank the discord server boosters gnarls

[01:43:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Aaron k tiller the thriller dork of the ninjas duve 71 captain genji 56

[01:43:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Athena a adrian

[01:43:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Adrian why am I saying adrian

[01:43:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Tina listu nancy m and goes to partition

[01:43:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Then our lore master's some martian michael g michelle e david w brian p sc peter o8 patina w adam s

[01:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Nancy m duve 71 brian 863

[01:43:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Frederick h sarah l garth c eric f matthew m sarah m dj miwa

[01:43:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Andra b quang yu dead i jedi bob

[01:44:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Nathan t alex v erin t sub zero

[01:44:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Aaron k dally v mothership 61 narls

[01:44:08] [SPEAKER_02]: cavi w listu

[01:44:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Jeffrey b alisa u fosyu neil f

[01:44:14] [SPEAKER_02]: ben b charlotte m and adrian always last

[01:44:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you all. Thank you for all your support still time to get the season pass if you want to hop on that

[01:44:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Or if you want to help on a recurring subscription so you can hear second breakfast 11 z's and all the other

[01:44:30] [SPEAKER_02]: patreon and supercast goodies

[01:44:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Get two or three times your material. It's quite it's quite a lot of material for a pretty pretty good deal. I gotta say

[01:44:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for all that support. Thank you. Thank you everyone maryland any last words for the podcast?

[01:44:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I think we've said all there is to say for this one and looking forward to whatever we might be saying on the next couple

[01:44:54] [SPEAKER_03]: All right, well maybe next time i'll even be brave enough and do some kind of music background

[01:44:59] [SPEAKER_02]: If you start reading names without music could come okay. Oh, you should do it. You should do it

[01:45:04] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. Well, that's it folks and remember the arkonstone should have been a silmorel

[01:45:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Lorhounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorhounds

[01:45:13] [SPEAKER_02]: You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at the Lorhounds dot com slash contact

[01:45:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Get early and ad-free access to all Lorhounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorhounds

[01:45:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening