The Wheel of Time - S03 Midseason Mailbag

[00:00:00] Lord Vader, Operation Andor is underway. Excellent. If we release three episodes per week, the Lorehounds will never be able to cover every episode. The Imperial forces will crush the Rebellion before it begins. Standby. We're picking up something on our scanners. Echo Squadron reporting in. Delta Squadron on your left. Jango Squadron on your 6. With Imperial forces coming in fast, we're calling all Rebels to join the fight this season.

[00:00:27] Starting after the April 22nd premiere, you'll hear three full breakdowns for each week's episodes of Andor Season 2. Each podcast will be led by one of our squadron leaders, Alicia, David, and Jon. We'll be bringing in new and familiar voices to fill out the roster. Search for The Lorehounds on any podcast platform to join us in a galaxy far, far away. And don't forget to check out our season pass for even more content like our Holocron bonus pods. It's good news for anyone, except Darth Vader.

[00:01:19] Welcome to a special extra edition of the Lorehounds Wheel of Time Season 3 coverage, our first mailbag. I'm Alicia, Elaine and Avienda's matchmaker. I'm Jon, just back from checking in on all my co-hosts dreams. And with us today is special guest, nevermind the music's Mark, whose music rocked so hard it accidentally opened the bore. How would there be dark friends if it weren't for me? That's right. We'd all be oblivious to the dark ones. Hello, dark friends. Yeah.

[00:01:47] You were the one with Mirren, right? You were the one with Mirren, just rocking out so hard that you... We don't even need Asmodian. We have Mark. You're Rand's ancestor. As long as I'm not one of the people scything out of time, I'm fine. I would never. Happy to be here. Glad to have you here. And yeah, Mark, if you are not familiar with Mark yet, well, you should be.

[00:02:13] You should, first of all, check out his podcast, Nevermind the Music, where music meets psychology. But also check out, there's a partial lore cast from Mark and I in the public feed about the songs of the Wheel of Time. Um, and there you will hear more about Mark's background with the books and why he loves the Wheel of Time for many years now. And of course, uh, subscribers and season pass holders have access to that full episode.

[00:02:36] Plus, uh, if you're on Supercast or Patreon, Mark and I will be back to talk about the music of episode six and another special lore cast extra coming out the start of next week. Um, today we are going to, we're collecting feedback for the first five episodes since I did that three episode drop and it's been busy. You know, we're doing the first five as our mid season check-in.

[00:03:01] So that is to race the shadow, a question of crimson seeds of shadow, the road to the spear and tell it on Rio. And, um, yeah, the overall vibe out there is people think this season seems to be a step up a lot of, uh, I'm hearing a lot of some of the best fantasy on the show. And television going around. What about you guys? Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. I'm, uh, I'm seeing a lot of people say that they did not like season one and two or season one.

[00:03:30] And then they thought season two was mediocre. And then they really liked season three. I mean, look, I thought season two was great. I'm, I'm, I'm a season one, a season two defender. You know, Alicia, we don't have to rehash this. I'm not a season one defender, but I am a season one defender except for the finale, but you know, COVID. That's fine. That's fine. We we're, we're here. We have our uneasy truce. That's a common theme in wheel of time anyway. And, uh, and yeah, I just see a lot of people like universal acclaim across. So I just hope that that's turning into numbers. Mm hmm.

[00:04:01] Yeah. I hope so. Mark, do many people in your life watch the show? No, actually no, my wheel of time, creative contacts have fallen far behind and don't know. They're like a season behind. Uh, I, yeah, nobody close in my life actually watches this show, which is a bummer because I've been mentioning people. Um, I think they may just be behind. So nothing to add on the, on the pulse.

[00:04:28] Unfortunately, I was just talking with my friend March in who listeners to the star Wars timeline podcast, uh, might recognize the name, but so he actually said to me, like, I don't know, a few months ago, sometimes he finally caught up in the wheel of time and he's like, and on watching season two, he's like, you know, I think this might even be better than the game of Thrones. Um, and, um, now he, I just like a couple of hours ago, uh, he told me that he finally

[00:04:57] started on season three. And I think that a lot of people are just starting late because it's so there's so much going on in television and stuff. But, um, he said the acting is much different now. All characters are more charismatic, more confident. Um, just, yeah. He said that the beginning of the first episode almost tops the season finale of season two. So it seems to be a lot of that response. It's very good. They've that Rand is making me drop my panties.

[00:05:26] I'll say that, you know, we've got, we've got, we've got finally, as, as your friend was saying, we've got the riz going. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. He also specifically called out Matt, which is, you know, a personal favorite of mine. And, uh, Matt is finally full Matt, which is actually on track for the books. I would say. Yeah. Well, should we get into the feedback? We have a lot of feedback. Yeah. Mm hmm.

[00:05:52] So let's first check in with, we have book readers and non book readers and how they're reacting overall. Uh, just some highlights here. So we had Ken W said, uh, after the first episode, just wow, the wheel of time is back. And with a bang. So happy. I didn't do the preview of the first 10 minutes and waited to watch the whole episode. Some Craig to hear Dublin, uh, accent in the white tower. Unfortunately, she's a red happy St. Patrick's day, everyone.

[00:06:21] Happy St. Patrick's day. Hmm. Did this come out on St. Patrick's day or that was just timed. That was, uh, I, it came out of, when did it come out? Like the 13th or something? Yeah. Maybe. Mm hmm. Yeah. It was around then though. It was in St. Patrick's soup. Mm hmm. Made with corned beef and soda bread. Mm hmm. Uh, be Lisa wrote in and said, I'm really enjoying the season so far. I think every single plot thread has me intrigued.

[00:06:47] I am fascinated by the new stuff we are learning about the Aiel and Tanchico and the Forsaken. I was excited both for this show and Daredevil to be returning, but before they both started, I would have told you that I was more excited for Daredevil. But now that I've seen some of each, I'm enjoying Wheel of Time more. I can't wait to hear what you all think. And I may be back with some questions. I've read the first three books and about a quarter of the fourth book. So I'm mostly clueless about a lot of the book lore for this season.

[00:07:17] This feels like probably the, like if you're gonna, I don't know. I would have this question. Can I ask you this? Is this one, if you're a book reader, which, uh, believes it clearly is partially, is this a season where it might be totally okay to have fallen behind and learn the lore this way? Mm hmm. Or is it like push, push, push, push, finish that massive thousand page book before the season? Like if you're gonna kind of meet somewhere in the middle, is this the season to do that?

[00:07:47] I guess would be my question for the two of you. Ooh, good question. Alicia, you want to take the first stab at that? I mean, I always tell people if that, you know, they shouldn't be, it's not a bad thing to watch the show before reading the book because you're in most cases or watch the movie before reading the book, whatever the case may be, because in most cases, um, you'll find out if you like the story and then, you know, the books are going to be so much more of an investment

[00:08:15] and you will get so much more out of them in return. You know, there's so many more details. So I, um, always say never be ashamed to just start with the show or the movie and maybe you even stop there. Maybe, you know, the books aren't for everyone. So yeah, no, as I say, we'll hear from someone who says he kind of wishes he hadn't read the books. I would say that this, the reveal, especially the reveals of episode four are just confusing enough.

[00:08:42] It might be kind of nice to get the kind of like cinematic quick version in one episode and then dive in and really, it was probably three times, third time through that book when I really understood, oh, okay, that's this point in history. That's that point in history. I feel like the context, this might be one of those moments where it's kind of nice to be a little spoiled while reading it. At least. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's interesting because I see people saying like, I feel confused about certain things.

[00:09:12] I'm like, yeah, well, the characters are too. And we are as readers at this point, like it's okay. Let certain things wash over you. Mm hmm. And as long as you got the main points going, you'll be okay. Mm hmm. Yeah. All right. Uh, do 71 on discord says once again, I'm in a great situation of having recently finished the series. 2024 was the year I smashed through a book a month pretty much, but watching the show with

[00:09:38] my wife, Shelly, who is not a book reader very much like our watching of silo. I agree with most people that the show, the show runners seem to be getting into their groove in terms of the adaptation and it's kicked off at such a pace. Yeah. I've watched a lot of, um, book reader, uh, risk, you know, reactions on YouTube or sorry, non book reader reactions on YouTube. And, um, it seems like most people are, are getting it and are enthralled.

[00:10:05] Although I think most of the reactions I watch were already enthralled after the first two seasons. So. Yeah, that's interesting. And, uh, yeah, I, I think they are doing a good job of, of, you know what it is. I always say like, you need to make me care about the characters before I care about the lore and they are doing a much better job of the characters and their relationships this season. I think. Yeah. Um, so will why offers another perspective?

[00:10:33] He says, uh, I love the podcast mainly because it gives me some clue as to what's going on in the show. I've never read the books. However, I've read a number of fantasy series and obviously watched a number of similar shows. I can tell you, this is the most difficult show to follow by a great distance. The number of names and locations and groups of people that are thrown at you with no background is immense. So much so that I doubt the show will last because a casual viewer is completely lost.

[00:10:59] I had no idea of the meaning of episode four other than the final scene in the past. So none of the other scenes in the past really meant anything to me. I believe this is a show created entirely for book readers. Even listening to your white tower sections. I do not understand what you're talking about unless I follow it up with a Wikipedia session. Keep the podcast going. It is good entertainment. So. Yikes.

[00:11:24] So, so a different take on, on how they're doing with non book readers, which I get that. Like, I think we all also have different universes that like trip us up. Like mine for the longest time was doing like every time I watch something doing, I was like the Baba Ganoush. I don't know what they're doing with Willy Wonka in there, but it's just, it's just too confusing for me. Like I can't keep track of all these proper nouns and now I love it. But I do think that there's a certain universes that strike us as like impenetrable. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:54] So I know you're going to take Jordan, but Jordan had, um, you timed that on purpose, even though I set the cadence. Anyone who doesn't know Jordan is French Canadian and likes to, uh, sprinkle in little French phrases to make John say them. Cause I'm very bad at pronouncing them. You're actually not. You just, uh, you get flustered about it. I just complain about it. Should we keep reacting to will or is this in the same line? Should we, this is in the same line?

[00:12:22] Yeah. Yeah. No. What's your, what's your take on wills? Well, I don't know if Jordan's echoing then, then let's, let's hear Jordan. Well, so Jordan is a spoiler for what Jordan's about to say. Jordan felt one way after episode three and then very differently after episode four. Whereas will seems to still feel that way after episode four. I would just say that the three of us are absolutely not equipped to really know if, if will is correct or not. Like, I don't know.

[00:12:51] I was correct for will. Yeah. Sure. But I just hope will is not correct for most people because this show should get canceled. If it's confused, confusing enough for so confusing for book readers, it's failing, right? Or for, for, excuse me, for show only watchers. It, it, it, it, it's not succeeding in its mission, right? If this show is truly just for book readers, that is not enough to justify the production price tag.

[00:13:15] I would love that, that experience of curated content specifically for me that costs hundreds of millions of dollars or whatever. But I would just say like, I hope that that's, I don't want to say like, well, I hope you're the only person that thinks that way, but I, I hope they sort it out, right? I hope that, that either they tweak some things so that that stops being true or this show is, is some, unfortunately. Well, but I think.

[00:13:44] I can't objectively tell anyway. No. You know, my wife is not a book reader and we watch it together and she mostly does okay, but she's also got me to ask a few questions. And also she is very okay with just, well, I don't know that, like she just, she's okay letting it all wash over her and figure it out in the end. So, um, because she's been trained to sort of ignore half the words in a fantasy show, unfortunately. Right.

[00:14:12] Well, I mean, I think, you know, uh, this, this is Will's perspective is a valid one that represents, I'm sure more people as well, but, um, it's not been the norm in the responses that I've seen also among non book readers. Like, for example, I was just talking about my friend March and who is a non book reader and it's not having those issues. So. Right. Well, Jordan started out with a similar take to will. So why don't we bring in Jordan's take?

[00:14:42] Yeah. Uh, so Jordan was trying to catch up with our, our podcasts and everything. And, uh, apparently found out that wheel of time was coming back cause we released our podcast. So see that Amazon giving us screeners cause we're getting people to watch your show. So Jordan sent in two emails, one after episode three, one after episode four, let's start with episode three. Holy moly. I am totally lost. This is the rare media where I haven't read the source materials outside of the first book only.

[00:15:07] So I imagine knowing the books helps a lot because I am finding all of the characters and their background stories extremely difficult to follow. There are far too many characters and they are far too similar. Wait till you get to the later book names. My God, uh, the show often jumps back and forth between them in both reality and dream sequences, making it even more difficult to follow. And right when I think I have a handle on them all, the introduced new characters without getting rid of any of the old ones.

[00:15:37] I was oddly hoping some would even die in that amazing cold open sequence in the first episode, but alas, they all survived. Hit them with some cake donuts. I'm sorry for people on second breakfast. Right. Uh, one lost their mind, right? Am I supposed to know her? Ah, it's too much. I always have to do his French and, uh, it's not. It's strange accent. Uh, I don't want to be overly critical.

[00:16:03] So I will add that the show is beautifully captivating and I'm not just referring to Yosha Stradowski. Amazing sets and scenery, killer costumes and super cool special effects. And okay. Often very good looking people have dressed those princes. Mm hmm. It ticks off all the boxes as to what I love and what makes a great fantasy adventure. But as a non book reader, I'm just not sure I follow the story as told by the show as well as it's intended.

[00:16:31] Honestly, I feel if I'd not listened to your companion pot, I would have been pausing my watch to go read the books and then come back to the series. Mm hmm. So we took one person away from the books. Hmm. Hmm. And then Jordan had a very different take after episode four. Mark, do you want to take episode four? I feel like I I've read I've read like a page of Jordan's thoughts now. I will take on I will ease your burden.

[00:16:59] I'll I'll carry the dagger for the next part of the journey. Episode four was fantastic and finally sold me on the overall show. Mostly thanks to the amazing performance by Yosha Stradowski, whom I loved in the Dutch film. Ge woon. Ge woon. Vrienden. Hey, I got 80% of the way there. Just a type of pastry. Yeah. Ha ha ha. It's a donut. The acting chops on this dude in episode four were just wow. Up until this episode, the saving grace for me has been the sets and costumes and makeup.

[00:17:29] Eh oui, the sarsiness. Désolé, Jean. How'd I do? Much better than I would. In comparison, sorry, in comparison, GOT was equally complex, but since it was set in a warring feudal society, it made it a bit easier for the viewer to wrap their heads around. As you have pointed out though, the actors seem to have a better grasp of their characters this season. And they, and that seems to really be helping me as a viewer, get a better grasp of the show myself and the story they are portraying.

[00:17:59] I would love it if you included a non-book reader in your podcast from time to time to help us old, little old laymen out. It can feel a little daunting and a little isolating. Not that you yourselves are isolating, rather the story I mean. Because it is just personal, and just me who is lost, haha. But I sincerely hope that the other non-book readers stick around long enough for Amazon, boo, to finish the whole story. Bon.

[00:18:24] All the whiplash feedback aside, the underlying story of a world in which civilizations are built upon civilization after civilization, and an ever weaving wheel is truly a captivating concept, and episode four has been deep on the hook wanting more. I am still not sure if I knew my Aiel from my Andorans, but I am happy to continue on the wheel to find out. My griping aside, it has been a while, so I wanted to check in and thank you yet again for all your amazing content. John, Alicia, David, and company.

[00:18:54] Your companion pods make the content all the more enjoyable and comprehensible in this case. Salut les lorehounds! I can't do that with lorehounds. Don't worry, John. I will give you a tiny break from French for at least one or two episodes. That break is named Mark. Yeah, I mean, I guess that is the one thing that we do miss this season is the non-book reader perspective. David, you are missed. Yeah, you'll have to write to David, I was going to say. Yeah.

[00:19:25] David specifically did not want to cover this season, and that's totally fine. I think he's wanted to focus on severance, and then we got two other big shows coming up. So plenty of stuff going on. And then Alicia and I are slowly tiptoeing into covering Doctor Who too much. Yeah, but we should bring in Jean for one. He's a non-book reader who's been really into this season. That's true. That's true.

[00:19:52] Can I say something about just the names that keep coming in? And obviously I'm not helping the whole non-book reader quest here because I am a book reader. The cast in the books does keep expanding and expanding, but you get these lovely glossaries in the back of the book that you can at least look and go, oh, that's a prince of candor or something. And then Jordan starts taking people out of the glossary. You're like, 10 books in, and you're like, wait, what's that mean?

[00:20:20] And you look and you're like, why are there only three entries under the letter H in the glossary? So as the world expands, it's almost like Jordan resigns to contracting the reference point. Like, yeah, you'll figure it out. So I do think there is a brain bandwidth that we are expected to only be able to manage that even the book readers can't manage.

[00:20:47] And I think Jordan allowed that is sort of my anecdotal response to that. And that's becoming so much more common, right? Like you had George R.R. Martin. He always talks about he has, I can never remember the names of all these people, but he has a woman who writes his reference books and he will literally call her and be like, what did I do with this character before? Because I don't remember where I left them. Hmm.

[00:21:10] I do want to just point out that, you know, Amazon Yabu, but they do have something called like the X-ray, I think is still a thing where when you're watching a scene, you can look up like who are the characters in the scene? What's the location? And they did do a pretty good, you know, it's worth going through the extras tabs for the wheel of time because they did include like a map and descriptions of the locations and factions and things like that. All right.

[00:21:39] So Katie S says, I bought the wheel of time season pass last week. I've been enjoying the content so much to make me check out the other Lorehounds content and there are many shows I'm looking forward to diving into. Yay. Thank you, Katie S. She says, I've decided to read the wheel of time books because of this podcast. So we lost, we took one away, sent one away from reading and brought one back in. She says, I'm normally a nonfiction reader, but I did read all things in the Game of Thrones universe last year and was surprised how much I enjoyed and devoured this genre of fiction.

[00:22:08] Your obvious love for the Watts universe made me wonder if I would enjoy another fantasy series. I never would have picked up the books from the series alone. Thank you for all you do. So, yeah, I love, I love to hear that. Like I said before, I don't think you have to read the books to enjoy the show or that they necessarily need to make you read the books after. But it is, I do think it's always a good sign when people are like, no, I want more of this story. Yeah. I tend to do that with series.

[00:22:36] Like I'll, I, since I was a kid, like I saw the first Harry Potter movie. I was like, give me all the books. And then I, you know, adulthood, I'm watching Game of Thrones. I'm like, give me all the books after I watch the season, all that stuff. And, and I like to see people do that. I feel like we've developed this community where we have a lot of similar minded people like that. Yeah, absolutely. Look, this is an epic fantasy series that is complete. And that's also not always the case, right?

[00:23:03] Looking at Game of Thrones, looking at, what is it, Name of the Wind or whatever that series is. Oh, yeah. These, this is an author. Now he, he passed, but Sanderson finished it. And that's something that should be cherished, honestly. So yeah. Enjoy. Take notes, Patrick Rothfuss and George R.R. Martin. That's right. I hope, yeah. I hope you have copious notes. Write in, please, when you're reading book 10 and book nine and book 11 and some of the, yeah, the slog.

[00:23:33] Let us know what you think. He got back to it. He got back to it. That's, I think the most tragic thing about the books is like, he was just like getting his groove back into like, let's, let's go back to the main plot. Let's gear up. Let's finish it up. And then he got that terminal diagnosis. So yeah. Thank you, Brandon Sanderson for finishing it. Still wish we would have gotten the original. And I think Brandon Sanderson, even in that intro that he intro letter that he writes to the first book he wrote, he says like, I too wish that we had a Robert Jordan version of these. Right.

[00:24:03] I'm going to try to make this a good experience for all of us. And I always appreciate that. No. Yeah. And it's a satisfying conclusion. Fred writes in and says, episode four was an episode of television. It sure was. Wow. I loved it. Even the things they changed for TV streamlining. I love, especially the way they combine the code and call with calendar and repurpose the name of the dark side.

[00:24:29] Sangreal Sakarnan as calendar is pairing in a long book series. I can appreciate the nuances of having all these different objects of immense power since in a literal war of the power, of course, they would have made more than just two ultimate weapons. But in a TV series, two super weapons, one for each side of the force, I mean, power makes it easier to tell the story.

[00:24:56] Oh, and when they combined Angreal and Sangreal into one category of Sangreal, I was glad they went with the Sop part because it's another Arthurian and broader medieval literature reference. The old French term for the Holy Grail. Yeah. Hmm. We all saw the Da Vinci Code, didn't we? That was a thing that we did as a society for a while. I was super into his books for a minute. Are they well written? No. Are they fun? Sure. I mean, they're not badly written.

[00:25:25] They're just, you know, pulp. Yeah. Fair enough. Does the term Sangreal come up in that? Because I read those. I thought it did. You know, in the early 2000s, and I'd already read The Wheel of Time. I'm surprised I never connected that. Well, I mean, spoiler for The Da Vinci Code, but it is ultimately about that. But I can't remember if they used that exact word. Sure. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. It's definitely in it. It's definitely in it. Yeah. Okay.

[00:25:54] I don't want to spoil it, but it's definitely in there. I just looked it up. Okay. All right. Sub-Zero. This came in after episode one. The book changes are jarring. It's not just character merges or event shifting and such, which you'd expect in any adaptation. The showrunners are making foundational changes to the lore. And whenever I encounter these changes, it takes me out of the show. I'm doing my best to rate each change on its own merit, but it's definitely affecting my initial enjoyment.

[00:26:22] I often envy viewers who'd never read the books. But once I'm able to set aside my book biases, I loved this episode. The show looks amazing. The costumes are gorgeous. I hope they get an Emmy for this. I'm curious what those foundational changes to the lore are. Because I don't think there's been a ton. I think there's been some combining, but not a lot of really big changes to the lore.

[00:26:47] Um, I'll say I will, when we get to the White Tower segment, which again, so this whole section, we didn't say this up front, but it's the usual rules where we're only spoiling through episode five. Now what's aired and any book equivalent stuff. We do have a White Tower section at the end after the outro music and Sub-Zero has something in there. That's about some perceived changes, but I'm not sure that I necessarily agree that they are changes. I think.

[00:27:17] Yeah. But we'll talk about that. Having to do with, um, relationships and how it'll affect future relationships, things like that. All right. Mark, do you want to set up Matt makes a bet? Which Jean had to say. Okay. Matt makes a bet. This is from, is this Jean Jean? Uh-huh. It is. Jean G. Okay. Oh man, episode three was a lot and in a good way. I've wanted to know more of Lan's story and I'm excited for this development.

[00:27:46] It was great seeing Matt beat up the princes. Loved how it showed this other competent side of him. And you want to take the next one since it's related? Cotton Cabin on Discord. The fight between Matt and Elaine's brothers was a scene I was so looking forward to as a book reader. The show delivered. Yeah. So was that a favorite of yours in the books, Mark? It was.

[00:28:11] I actually was a little disappointed by the show. Really? Okay. I just, also I watched that episode and then like the next day watched it with my wife who's a couple days behind or something like that. And she was just kind of like, what are they doing? Like I remember in the books feeling like it made a little more sense why they were having this sort of cockfight. Right? It felt a little random.

[00:28:39] And like the fact that nobody was watching it kind of took away a little bit. I know some people think that's better because it, you know, it made it just about them and just about like real things. There's just something about it that it's one of the few times in the series this season at least that I felt like, wow, that could have been cooler. And I mentioned in the other pod I was on with you, Alicia, that like felt like Gawain is less of a character.

[00:29:08] Like we've barely seen him at all. And so it felt a little bit, a little less earned, I guess. That's my only thing. Like I love that scene in the books. I really do. And it felt just sort of a bit like it was there just to make us happy. I know that's probably fighting words, pun intended. But I think this could also just be some weird misremembering of how it goes down in the books for me. But I wanted a little more. It was cool though.

[00:29:37] I mean, it was good fight choreography and it was attractive to people fighting. And what more do we want in society than people that we like hurting each other? How did Nainee put it? I think this is everyone's kind of thing, Matt. But she said that about watching the brothers go at it. And I kind of felt like I wanted that vibe a little more. Because it felt a little bit in the books, as I recall. Matt is sporting with them a little bit. He's messing with them.

[00:30:02] And we know that there's something going on with Matt that gives him maybe a kind of unfair advantage. But it was almost just too earnest. Like a fight was happening. You know, like there was actually anger behind it. And they were taking it out. Instead of sort of him just messing with the two of them a little bit. And shocking everybody in the process. So I don't know. It's hard for me to put it in words even though I've taken about a thousand words to try. I liked it a lot. I do agree it should have had an audience.

[00:30:32] I think that would have been more fun. And I take your point about sort of the lack of whimsy with it. The more serious nature of it. Like defending Naineev's honor, which she doesn't want defended. But yeah, overall I enjoyed the choreography and all that. I mean, I think there was humor, you know, with the Matt. Yeah, there was humor. I see what Mark's saying though is like the overall tone was a little bit more serious.

[00:30:54] No, for me, and I said this in that episode too, for me the only letdown was like I did realize in the books I liked having other people see the princes get their asses beaten by a farmer boy with a stick, you know? Well, there's the whole thing about the warder, right? Like the warder telling them the story of the one guy who could beat the greatest swordsman or whatever, whoever it is, Guidal Kane or whoever it was, was some farmer with quarterstaff. And then that kind of gets proven in front of them.

[00:31:25] Right. Maybe I'm misremembering the order. Yeah, I think it's actually after. Yeah, I think afterwards. Got it. He's like, yeah, you see you little cocky assholes? This isn't the first time a swordsman has been beat to shit by a farmer. Right. Right. Yeah, and actually that's one of the, you know, we talked about the Wheel of Time Origins episodes, those little animated mini episodes lore that cover aspects of lore and it's under the extras tab for season one.

[00:31:51] And one of the episodes is about this story that you're saying that he told them that Hammer, I think, was the trainer guy, warder guy. How do you remember that, Alicia? Like, I watched those when they came out, but that was like five years ago or something. Well, no, Hammer, I mean, Hammer's the guy who was like telling the princes they were being like cocky little shits and listen to this story.

[00:32:17] But I mean, even that there is a, there is that particular little bonus episode. I just can't, it's completely left my brain, even though I watched every single one of them as soon as they came out. Congratulations. And one day we might get season two of that, which they promised in August 2023. August 2023. I'm still waiting for it. All right. Should we take a quick break here? Yes. Come back and talk some more.

[00:33:02] Beelissa is back. By the way, Beelissa, I thought of you because I was reading a book of Greek mythology and they talked about Melissa, the Greek deity becoming a bee. And I was like, oh, that's the reference. You're doing a Greek mythology play. I'm pretty sure. If I'm wrong, feel free to tell me. But I was like, oh, I totally get the name of one of our frequent writers in now. All right. That's enough for me on my Greek mythology. I'll do it. Hi, Lorehounds.

[00:33:32] I wanted to share that I know about Brandon Sanderson's interaction with the showrunners of the first season of Wheel of Time. I don't know what happened after that, so I don't have a complete picture of his involvement. He was consulted on the episodes that were shot before COVID, and then he heard absolutely nothing from them regarding the last two episodes. I know he was disappointed by that and by the quality of those episodes. Maybe he felt if he'd been consulted, he could have had a positive impact.

[00:33:59] He remarked that he thought or assumed that Moraine was stilled. He may have thought that based on watching the show, just like we all did. I'm really enjoying the season so far. Thanks for your great coverage. All right. I have to jump in here. I do know a bit more about this. I do remember what she's talking about with this, that he definitely felt slighted. And it was, I don't think it was meant to be a slight in any way. It was just kind of chaotic when they came back from COVID.

[00:34:26] And as I said, they were kind of, Rafe Judkins, the showrunner, was kind of like writing a lot of things on the day of because it was just so up in the air. And they weren't even sure like how to, with the COVID restrictions and the fact that the actor who played Matt didn't come back. They, yeah, everything was moving pieces until the last minute. Amazon's rushing them like, you've been off for five months, finish this season.

[00:34:48] And, you know, as far as the Moraine was stilled, it is absolutely untrue that we all thought that she was. And this is why I took, I was so annoyed with Brandon Sanderson at this point. And then he said a few other things since that have kind of irked me.

[00:35:06] But this was the first thing where he set off a panic in the book fandom that she had been stilled when to a whole bunch of us, it was very, very clear from watching the TV show. We saw Isha Mayel tie off the weave. He did this little gesture with his hands, you know, and people were panicking because Brandon Sanderson says so. Brandon Sanderson says so. Like, no, it's clearly not the case. And then it turns out it wasn't, is indeed was not the case.

[00:35:36] And it was just a shield that was tied off in the weave. We talked about this more in the talents episode that's coming out for subscribers, what that means. But just basically you can put a shield around someone and then forsaken. They have all these talents other people didn't have. They know how to just tie it off so that like they can just leave that shield in place. And then Sanderson, I think he was involved to like a lesser degree, but I think it just started to be some like rubbing the wrong way.

[00:36:06] You know, in terms of him saying this stuff and giving all these interviews even recently. And like after season two, he said that dagger on a stick that Matt had in the season two finale was was an important weapon from the series. And we're all like, come on, we know that's not true. But then it set off another panic in the book reading community. And it turns out, indeed, it's not true. So it's just like, yeah, there are a lot of people. And obviously, I'm one of them who are just getting annoyed with him talking crap on the show.

[00:36:34] And I do wonder if it has something to do with like this feeling slighted. Yeah. I mean, at the same time, he's somebody who like because of his role, like he can't just enjoy the show and comment on it without people dissecting his every word. And like he probably doesn't mean to cause a whole stir. But I understand that. And I think he understands, too, that like anything he says is going to be dissected about this. Mm hmm. Yeah.

[00:36:57] Well, I mean, I don't know, because I think also the place where he was saying this is he was going to a content creator who, by the way, is enjoying this season. I did check on him on him once just out of curiosity. But someone who in the past was known for having guests and talking down about the show and just really hating on the show. So he went on this YouTube channel. To bitch, basically. So about the show.

[00:37:27] So interesting. Yeah, interesting. Because I had I had heard an interview. I'm sorry, Mark. I'll I'll bring you in in one second. But I was listening to an interview with him when the show first came out. And I was actually very disappointed in season one, as we've talked about many times. And I thought he was much more positive on it than I was. He said a lot of nice things about it. But he said I think he did say, you know, I was a little disappointed with the last couple episodes. But overall, of course, I thought they did a good job. He didn't like and the same way I didn't like the woman I always diastrope being brought in for parent.

[00:37:57] I thought that was unnecessary. He seemed to think that was unnecessary, too. So actually, I was pretty in line with him on season one, but I haven't kept track of his comments since then. So to all this, I would just say, I mean, this is one of those things that to the point that he wasn't consulted later, like I get COVID. But it's also like, send the dude's text. Well, he was consulted. He was consulted on season two and beyond. That's not. Okay. But like, hey, by the way, Brandon, we're shooting. Just let you know. Like, send him an email.

[00:38:26] It wasn't like that at all. It really wasn't like that at all. It was just that a lot of changes had. They did all, by the way, if anyone hasn't seen it, I really recommend watching the documentaries that they did about the first two seasons that are on under the extras tabs, I guess, also on Amazon Prime. They're 20 minutes per season. And really, they're super honest about all of these difficulties and stuff that they, for season one in particular, that they dealt with.

[00:38:54] And then just a lot of really insightful things about like, how did they make that shot? And what are considerations that you might not have thought of in pulling certain things together? Stuff like that. Yeah, I also think we're not going to know every conversation that have behind. No, especially ones that might reflect negatively on the people making these documentaries. Go ahead, Mark.

[00:39:13] So on this whole thing about tying off the weaves and whether we all knew it was stilling or if it's just a shield, I think one thing the show did not do well in certain regards is tell us some of these rules that are very well known in the book. So I would just say that the shielding stilling could be one of those foundational changes that someone like Sub-Zero was mentioning.

[00:39:35] But honestly, if we're talking end of season one, it's the Matt scissoring that happens where Matt is not there. Matt should be in a completely different location at this point in the story. And I've come to terms with that. I think they've made the best of that. I think it was a rough end of season one and beginning of season two. But that is a foundational change, which could theoretically lead to very massive changes, possibly negatively in the future. I hope it doesn't.

[00:40:04] But we can't pretend like that change isn't one that was super significant. Oh, sure. And that's also, I think, why like a lot of the wonkiness, it's not just about like the fact that they couldn't they had a whole battle planned for the end of season one, you know, and they couldn't do that because of all the you can't. Because not only with COVID, like you notice in the finale and you also notice this in like the finale of Boba Fett and other shows released around the same time. Like WandaVision.

[00:40:34] People are standing in clusters of like two people max. And that's because of COVID regulations, which looks really weird and makes them have to do weird things about like the groupings of their story. So that's one factor that they're dealing with. And also just the fact that COVID was so expensive to film through because of all the extra regulations and people you had to hire and personal protective equipment and all that stuff.

[00:40:57] But then on top of that, Matt plays a big role at the end of the books and he was supposed to play a big role at the end of the season. So then we got like that whole situation where Loyal was kind of stabbed and then it's like, just forget about it. And that was just kind of like a, I think, like day of panic decision. Like, well, what do we do if Matt's not here? Yeah. I see their problems and I don't want to relitigate season one anymore.

[00:41:27] I think it is going to be what it is forever and ever. Yeah. Okay. Well, Abby says about, so we're moving on to the perfection of Radiant. Spoiler, this section is going to have a lot of positive things. So Abby says the boar in the sky made me flash to Dune Prophecies, ominous eyes in the dark, which that is, well, we won't spoil what that is, but there is a theme throughout of eyes in the sky.

[00:41:55] And I have to say, I did think of that for a second too, even though obviously I was expecting the boar. And she says, so the white Death Star was the thing that broke the sky or that was the thing that held it and it got broken. Gorgeous episode. I will need to rewatch this one so I don't ask more stupid questions. No, no question is stupid. But yeah, it's not, it wasn't that it broke the sky.

[00:42:19] It was just a floating research lab inside which Mirin Sedai, Landfair later, she bored through the pattern. So she broke the sky inside, as you call it, the white Death Star thing, which is called the Charom. And that's why it fell because it broke apart, but then also the pattern broke open. Am I explaining it? Can you guys explain it better? I think that's right. I think that's right.

[00:42:48] She dug too deep. She dug too deep. Right. We're digging too deep like the dwarves. Well, Mark, we skipped you over. You want to read Ken W? Well, you skipped me. Did we? I skipped you? We're back to you. Yeah. Did I? Guys, guys. I'll skip. I'm going to not take a turn next time. You two can have all the turns. No, we don't. We don't have to fight over it. We can be chaotic about it. Am I reading this or not? Yes. Go. Okay.

[00:43:18] Ken W says, episode four, just wow. What an unbelievable episode of TV. When I'm reading books and dream of what it would look like on TV or big screen, it's very rare they meet my expectations, but this was magical. I went and listened back to chapters 24 through 27 of The Shadow Rising just after watching the episode and just before listening to the podcast. What a thrill ride my Thursday afternoon was. The wheel weaves as the wheel wills, and we are only a thread of the pattern.

[00:43:49] That's right. It was a great episode. Love it. Yeah. Do you want to continue with Sub-Zero's gushing? Sub-Zero's gushing. I can't believe the showrunners pulled this off. Episode four was everything I could have possibly wanted from Ruidian. Parenthetically, why don't you two say it so weird? Back to Sub-Zero. Did they blow half a season's costume budget on this one episode? As Moraine, I agree with that. As Moraine was flipping through all her different lives, I lost track of all the amazing outfits.

[00:44:18] And this was a tour de force from Yosha. So much was asked of him, and he knocked it out of the park. I've always said it, Ruidian. Yeah, I started to copy off of you, but actually I think I would normally say Ruidian. Well, then I was just going to keep you in the weird one. But I've been copying off of you, so you've infected the way I say it. I don't – how do they say it in the show? I feel like they do say it more like John does, Ruidian. No, they say Ruidian in the show. Do they? They definitely do. Oh, yeah. You know, I believe in Mark.

[00:44:48] I had no idea for years how to say it, and I looked it up like in the glossaries for a while, and I sort of settled on something. And then in the show, they say Ruidian, and I'm just going with it. You do the audiobooks though, John. What do they say? Do they say it like wild like you in the audiobooks? I don't know now. Now I have to go find it. Do they say it wrong? I do think they say something differently than Robert Jordan wanted it to be said. Yeah. Because they also change it.

[00:45:14] Sometimes you'll be listening to an early audiobook, and you're like, that sounds wrong. And then later they correct it. So I don't know. They're like, we're not going to go rerecord that book, right? It's 40 hours. Also, like, the thing that's always, this is totally, I literally found the Shadow Rising pronunciation guide in the back. One thing I've noticed is they have always, from the beginning, and this caused me a lot of problems back when I was first reading this series,

[00:45:42] the pronunciation guide in the glossary has Nynaeve completely different. It says, Almyra, Nynaeve. And so I trained myself. I called her, like, Nynaeve for, like, a decade. And then when I was finally a grown man, I read it, and I was like, it says Nynaeve. It's Nynaeve Almyra. It's capital N. He does not use the international phonetic alphabet. He goes capital N, capital I, capital G, capital H, and then N-E-E-V.

[00:46:12] Nynaeve. Nynaeve Almyra. And they just totally went with Nynaeve, which is sort of the more natural-sounding name. So we shouldn't necessarily trust this perfectly. But to the point, Ruidian is R-H-U-I. R-H-U-Y. How do you pronounce that? Ru-I? I think it's Roy. I'm claiming my victory lap here.

[00:46:42] And then it's D-E-E-A-H-N. Oh, man. I win this one. I think you're right. And they, everybody watch the episode. I swear they're going to say, they say Ruidian. I promise you they say Ruidian. And John is holding it down. John, you have to start calling her Nynaeve also. Nynaeve. Not Nynaeve. Nynaeve. Okay. Right? All right. If it were Dutch, it would be Roudine.

[00:47:08] Have you ever seen, there's this person on TikTok who pretends to do Daenerys in the Dothraki camp. And she's just like, Like, she's just doing random syllables, just walking down the street. And it is the funniest thing to me. All these fake languages get to me. I love the cotton legs. Yeah. Do you want to take Jeffy? Sure. Sorry that I stole your entry before. But we're back on track.

[00:47:38] We're doing it. Jeff A says, Throughout the series, I've been reconciling what I see on screen with my own character and location images that were formed in my head over the years and the rereads. I haven't adjusted my own mental images, but I've made room for this other turning. But even in this new turning of the wheel, the glass column sequence is nearly identical to the one in my head. I can't believe how beautifully the showrunners pulled off. What could have been a total disaster.

[00:48:06] It was exactly what I wanted to see and felt for the first time in this show that I had seen it all before meant only in the best way. Wow. I'm curious how impactful the glass column sequence was for non-book readers. I feel in the books we spend a little more time with the Aiel before we learn their secret history. Maybe it hits home harder that way. The limited time spent with the Aiel is a necessity of bringing the story to the screen. I'm curious, where did you fall on the spectrum of Rand?

[00:48:33] This is all pretty new, but I guess I can see how this world would be hard for clan chiefs to handle. To Muradin, this is so shocking to my sense of self. I need to tear my eyes out. Yeah. I'm actually going to jump in with one from the end of this section where Aya Sedai says,

[00:48:58] I never understood in the books why it would impact them that much that they would claw out their own eyes. And some of that is just the books are the POV, right? Without any, right. So it's Rand's POV without any Aiel point. I can say this point of view at that point. And so, yeah, she says, I had a hard time understanding slash feeling it. The show made me get it a lot more. Yosha's last mum was so shattering.

[00:49:26] I did not think Yosha based on past seasons could have pulled this off when we knew that he would be playing all of his ancestors. But I am so happy to be wrong. I am so, so excited to watch every minute of him on screen from here on out. So I think it's interesting, yeah, that even book readers, even a book reader saying that, you know, I didn't necessarily get it in the books. But once I see it on screen, it makes more sense. Yeah. Yeah. I see what you're saying there.

[00:49:56] I think it did. I think you're right. Like I was a little like, wait, what's happening? We're going back in time when I first read the book. And on reread, obviously, you can understand a little more. But the show made it a really good job making it clear. I think it does. It does help to have spent. I mean, did Aiel first pop up in the middle of the Great Hunt in the books? No. That when we first meet Gaul? Oh, actually, yes, you're right. You're right. It is. It is Gaul. Right.

[00:50:23] So, like, there is quite a lot, you know, 1,200 pages of reading of at least being somewhat exposed to the Aiel that makes this more shocking. I mentioned in the other podcast I was on with Alicia that I was kind of like unsettled by learning this, just having sat with the Aiel for a while as a teenager reading this. But I don't know.

[00:50:51] I also think about it not to connect to real world events or anything like that too much. But humans have a limited capacity to grapple with cognitive dissonance. And if the Aiel think very clearly, we are this way and the Tuatha'an are to be scorned, right? And then they learn and they're weak and whatever. And then they learn that they are, in fact, the oath breakers.

[00:51:18] In the modern and real world without magic, we would just put up a wall and just not believe it. No fake news or no, you lied to me. That's a conspiracy theory. Sorry. These folks going through the glass columns, which I guess is just the class clan chiefs, not the wise ones don't do it unless I'm misremembering that. The wise ones do it second later. They do it later. Okay.

[00:51:39] So all the clan chiefs and wise ones get this and they have no capacity to resist it with cognitive dissonance and just be like, well, I'm going to dismiss it. It's forced upon them, the reality of it. And so I wonder, while it might feel kind of like, is that guy really clawing his eyes out? Maybe we in the real world don't know what it's like to have an uncomfortable truth that cannot be rationalized away. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:52:05] And I do think, um, I did worry that they had not like instilled enough why they can aisle contempt for the Tuatham, you know, and why they would be so shocked to have the same origin. And they did include earlier this season, they included that like, oh, they killed a band of Tuatham and they did like have in the, you know, anyone who skipped the, um, previously on at the start of the episode might not have quite remembered who the Tuatham were.

[00:52:33] But I was, I was glad to see the non-reader reactions that I watched as soon as they saw like Ren starting going back. And as soon as they got to the one where he's with fake Matt and fake Perrin hugging the tree. You know, being hobbits together. Yeah. Well, some people did say that like, oh, this kind of looks like a hobbit thing. And then, um, everyone, it seems all the non-readers said like, oh, this is like those, you know, the Tuatham people. This looks just like that. Oh, interesting. And then, oh, wait, it is.

[00:53:03] So it seems like people did pick up on that more than I worried. I was at Will earlier that was saying that it wasn't until that last vision that they really went, okay, I get the point of this. Watching it again, not to throw her under the bus, my, um, my wife who does enjoy the show. When it got to the transition where it, where they start to look a lot like Tuatha Ann, who we haven't seen in an entire season, at least. I said like, did they look, does that look familiar to you? She's like, not really.

[00:53:33] But then by the end of it, she was like, okay, I get this. They've clearly, we've gone thousands of years and they ripped open all, like she gets that. But, but that, I, I do think that it's possible that the Tuatha Ann and their relationship and just their presence in the world is not as big. Because as book readers, even if the Tuatha Ann aren't in the books that much, you know, Perrin's always thinking about them. Egwene's thinking about them. Like, it's just like called it, called to mind a lot in a way that it's not right now. So. Right.

[00:54:02] Um, it's possible that that transition to where things start to get really weird, where the Aiel start to get uncomfortable in their skin. Because why is my ancestor a traveling person following the whale of the leaf? That maybe didn't land quite until clearly there's a floating ball in the sky and we rip the sky open. Hmm. Um, well, we got a non book reader perspective here with Jean. Do you want to take that mark? Yeah.

[00:54:31] Jean says, what a great episode. Alicia and John were absolutely correct. As a non book reader, everything that happened was new to me and I never felt left out. They answered questions that I didn't even know I had. And that was effing dope. For me, this is one of the best, if not the best depictions I've seen of a hero journeying, walking a path to understand who they are, their history, and their role and place in the grand scheme of things. The early Aiel gave me Amish vibes.

[00:54:58] I wonder if the dark one worked Mier and Sadai, like the snake did Eve. Or was she really trying to make a better world? Or were they actually hand in hand with the plan? What do you think about that, John? Oh, I don't know. Were they hand in hand with the plan? Do you think like the dark one worked Mier and Sadai like the snake did Eve? Do you think he might have been reaching out to her through the pattern? Probably. Probably.

[00:55:27] I mean, I also think that part of the lesson in The Wheel of Time is that it's not like... Like you do have free will, but we all have the capacity to do bad things. And we all have the capacity for hubris. And I actually don't really blame Miren personally for opening the board.

[00:55:52] I think it's the society around her that was, you know, an economy based on endless growth. You know, things like that. Like this idea of like we need more, more. And that's what drove her to it. And I don't know if that does always come from the dark one or just humans in general in this world have an innate sense of greed in them. I mean, is that always...

[00:56:20] I mean, does greed come from the dark one in general? Is that always the dark one's influence in the world? Pass. I have questions. I have so many questions. And we have to save them to the later segment. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I think we are supposed to ask these questions, I think, that Jean's asking. I think we're supposed to wonder at that moment.

[00:56:49] I do think we're supposed to understand, though, that she was not trying to open a hole or anything like that. She was not looking for the dark one. She was not supposed to be considered a dark friend at that time. Certainly not a forsaken. But yeah, I want to talk about it later. Okay. All right. Well, Fred says,

[00:57:20] I also loved... And I guess that's what Jean was questioning there. I also loved the wagons at the start of the Ayo migration. They looked like what you'd get if an advanced civilization collapsed into total war for a century or two. Like it's a modern car pulled by a horse. I also loved the visual metaphor they used for Moraine seeing hundreds upon hundreds of turnings of the wheel.

[00:57:48] At Jean, the linked rings to Rangirl and Roidian, whatever pronunciation we're going for, and the visions women get the first time through. I'm listening to the pod now. I believe in the books, they do get a lot of visions of possible futures. The limit is that the visions mostly fade quickly, so you're only left with a handful of clear impressions from the experience. So I guess that's what I'm remembering. Yeah. Moraine's like, I remember everything.

[00:58:18] Yeah. Yeah. And I also agree that I think the way they designed the Age of Legends and that transition through. I was saying, you know, we always talk about the passage of time in other stories. And I think the Wheel of Time just uniquely handles that well in terms of how technology builds and collapses and nations build and collapse. And yeah. And this was a really great summary of 3,000 years of history in one hour of television.

[00:58:48] Yeah, for sure. Well, that brings us to the question of sex and relationships. What's book canon? I should have gotten like a slap bass going in here. Hang on. I can grab. Sorry, no. I haven't practiced in a while. I've got one right over there. All I have to do is plug it in. I got an input right here at the computer. Give us some funk. All right.

[00:59:19] Who's got this one? Jordan. Jordan is back. Yeah, I should get a Jordan one. John, sci-fi and fantasy is full of sex. Buddy, sorry, mon ami. I feel your brain subconsciously puts up some literary blinders when you delve into some of these stories. Haha, love it. Just joshing with you, of course. Yosha-ing with you? But yar. Don't die on this prudish hill, though it's hilarious listening to your mild rants about it.

[00:59:49] So do feel free to continue. Definitely don't read Wizard's First Rule, though. All right, I need to put this to bed. I'm not against sex in fantasy. I am against this level of sex in the Wheel of Time because I don't think it's that kind of story. I just don't think it fits with the vibe that Robert Jordan did. I know that there's implied scenes, but that doesn't mean that it's overt. It's a different thing. It's a different thing.

[01:00:18] We're exploring different kinds of relationships. You want sexy fantasy? We got that. We got that. We got Game of Thrones. We got the Black Company has some of that kind of stuff. There's plenty of that out there. There's whole genres of people lovingly referring to their literature as smut. I get it. I understand. I have a copy of A Court of Thorns and Roses, and I plan to read that at some point. But I just don't think it fits with the Wheel of Time.

[01:00:47] We do have a range of opinions in this section. Shall we just keep going through them? I'm going to break the tie afterwards. Okay. So let's read through everybody. I'm going to break the tie, and we can really put this to rest. All right. I got the next one then. Doof71 says, just chuckling away with Jon and his, no sex please, we're the Wheel of Time fans. A lot of what I recall from the books was, to paraphrase Alicia, Randall Horn, with seemingly

[01:01:16] every female unable to resist the charms of the Dragon Reborn. Loving the banter you guys have, and it's fantastic to have two totally committed and passionate Wheel of Time superfans who can still disagree and discuss. Makes for a cracking pod. Book five, everyone. Book five is the first time Randall Thor has sex in the books, and we jumped right in. It's like, basically, it's the cold open, basically. Yeah, because they, but they start. But what sex it is. Yeah.

[01:01:42] But they start, they start with the kids, and they really do feel more like kids. They are slightly younger, most of them, in the books. And to the point where I've heard from a lot of book readers that they find them annoyingly like wide-eyed at first, you know? And I understand where that comes from. Onward with the feedback, and then I'm going to break the tie. Okay, okay. So her royal bubbliness says, well, I haven't read the books, but as someone who has watched

[01:02:11] quite a number of series, the sex scenes are very few and don't feel gratuitous. In my opinion. It's like every episode. And then the few they even show most times are cut. So there aren't even a lot of nude scenes. Are there even any? Anyway, yeah. And they did cut a lot of nudity from the books. Moraine has sex like 17 times in her visions with various people. Yeah, but she also had sex in her visions in the books.

[01:02:37] One of the only things she remembers from her vision is that it was a bad idea to seduce Rand. That is not the way to control him. That was an actual vision she had in the rings in the books. Yeah, I'm just saying like a lot of it is just off camera. And that's a stylistic difference. Again, I am for sex position if it is a if it is sex position. I didn't get anything about like Ren boning all day Al Thor. Like just just going through town, you know, finding every lady he can.

[01:03:07] That doesn't each be anything except people are attracted to him. Yeah, they would throw themselves at him. Like remember the Elsie Grinwell or whatever? Yeah, but he doesn't do anything with them. That's my whole point. It's like so it's like John tell me people are throwing them at me. You can tell me people are throwing themselves at this character because he's Tavirian. Cool. That has told me everything you need to tell me. I'm not going to learn anything by you now stripping down and doing another three minute scene on it. We don't have time for this nonsense. Okay, we are not.

[01:03:37] We are not hearing all the feedback. I have to cut in. Okay. All right. First of all, John, you're married, right? I am. Presumably you've had sex before. I do have two children. If you flash forward. So twice. You've had sex twice. If you flash forward thousands of turnings of the wheel in a vision, you might have sex a couple times in that too. So I'm going to say that. Here's this is listeners. I'm so happy to be here because I can say they are both right and they are both wrong. So here's my take on this.

[01:04:08] They do not. This book series does not have a lot of sex, Alicia. This book series has a lot of nudity in it. A lot of topless women running around doing trials and tribulations and stuff like that. But these characters are utterly prudish for almost the entire series. And when it's not prudishness, like Celine is a character. Celine is like, I'm going to change now, Rand. And he's like, but that's not proper. And he's like facing away from her.

[01:04:38] This is Celine who in the TV show is like banging him in the first time we see her. They're already a couple, right? Yeah. So they do start out as kids and we can say, oh, that's just because they started out as teenagers. But the truth is they did. They started out as really prudish teenagers. And it's made pretty darn clear that Egwene and Rand are not actually a couple. They're just betrothed to be a couple one day. And they like each other or whatever. But there's scenes later where people do get down.

[01:05:06] And especially, you know, there are married characters who they make reference to claw marks on their back and stuff like that. There are not sex scenes. That's the main disagreement. And Alicia, I'm going to come back to totally agreeing with you. Don't worry. But there are not sex scenes in the book. They talk about people. People have sex in the book. There are no depictions of that sex ever. There is no moist pink mast or whatever happens in Game of Thrones. What's that one thing where they're talking about a scene in A Song of Ice and Fire?

[01:05:35] Is it, what's his name's, not told, what's his? I mean, A Song of Ice and Fire is way more explicit. The Sam Gamgee analog in the series. Oh, yeah. Samwell? Samwise? Samwell Tarly. Samwell Tarly. And his, like, pink mast or whatever. Like, these absurd descriptions of sex absolutely do not happen in the book. It's like, there's even a character with an extremely problematic relationship with sex that you guys referred to that we could hopefully never see in the show.

[01:06:04] That they just still just sidestep. So, there are not a lot of sex scenes in this book at all. However, there are also not a lot of sex scenes in the show, John. Like, people have sex, but there's no, like, they're not having sex having sex. Like, it shows them, oh, they're in bed. So what? Right? Like, it's not gratuitous because there isn't a shock value to it. Right? So, like, I don't agree that there's no sex in the series.

[01:06:33] But what I do agree with is there's no sex scenes in the book series. There is sexuality, but no sex scenes. There's nudity and sex happening off camera, which I totally agree with you, John. But the show, like, it has, have we seen a boob? Maybe there's a boob in the sweat tent or something like that. But when you say the word gratuity, it's like, it's got to, I feel like there has to be a shock, a oh my god look at us element.

[01:07:01] And having Lan and Nynaeve, or should I say Nynaeve instead of Nynaeve, making out with him with his chest bare. I just don't see it. It's just, I get you don't want to see it like you had sex twice in your life and that's enough. I get it. You have two kids. Well, that's all I have evidence for. And I'm not shaming you for that. But it's just, it's not, it's just so, I feel like if they chose to age up the characters, right?

[01:07:30] They chose to, for whatever reasons, it would be absurd to have them all be, like, abstinent in the way, like, oh, it's not proper for me to be sleeping near you in the tent. Like, because Yosha's like 28 or whatever in the story, or maybe 24, whatever he is, he's not 15 or a 16 year old.

[01:07:47] So I just think the alternative, it's not, they're not doing that scene in the brothel in King's Landing where, like, Littlefinger is telling us this crazy complicated political thing while these two ladies are getting it on. And that's not happening. So there are sex scenes that don't need to be there, but I would take issue with the word gratuitous. I think we might have a different definition of gratuitous because for me, gratuitous is you're wasting my time with this. Sure.

[01:08:16] It is something that does not need to be there. And I do feel I've had my time wasted a few times with it, as we are now wasting the listeners' time. That's true. People like this conversation. I mean, yeah, I think, obviously, you can tell by this is the biggest chunk of feedback that we have. So obviously people feel invested in this conversation.

[01:08:36] But, I mean, I take all of the points and I think we should take a quick break now and then when we come back, press through the rest of what people have to say about this. Because at this point, I have to say things do shift more toward talking specifically about Elena Navienda. Okay. I have one more point, though, that I need to make. Sure. Which is a great example of sex position that was not gratuitous severance this season. Excellent example. Sure.

[01:09:04] Of real, meaningful, we needed this sex. But they only did it once. It's not sex position, though. Yeah. That's not sex position. That's just sex. That's sex position. It's a plot point. It's a combination of you're doing sex, but you're also showing something about the character, something about the plot. You are teaching something with sex position. Hmm. Okay. I would call it a plot twist. I thought sex position was Littlefinger dumping a bunch of info on us while people were having sex. Maybe I'm using the term wrong. I don't know.

[01:09:35] Sex position to me is like you are using sex as a plot device because it makes sense for these characters, not only in they would have had sex, but in like I need to show you them having sex because that is going to change how you view these characters. I mean, I would call severance on the prudish side of it, but it makes sense because severance mostly takes place in the office, which is not a place that people normally have sex. Well, not with that attitude.

[01:10:01] Wikipedia says, in visual media such as television and film, sex position is the technique of providing exposition against a backdrop of sex or not. Oh, I've been using it wrong this whole time. Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Mark. So, again, there's a whole article after that. You've done your professor duty today. I didn't. That's right. My famous. Next time I'll just do chat GPT and I'll be even more shameful. Okay, we can take a break now, Alicia. Sorry to interrupt your programming.

[01:10:30] All right, I have the music.

[01:10:51] Okay, so let's pick back up with Soarens Warder, and this is where the conversation shifts a bit more specifically toward Elena Navienda and that in the show versus the books. So, Soarens Warder says, Wheel of Time definitely has sex as any in the know do know Tom Fox, though it doesn't have as much sex as the show does. Gowan and Gallad railing novices all night long while they're at the tower. And Alicia interjecting, I did.

[01:11:20] That was my one complaint, right, John? You were complaining. I give you the credit. Soarens Warder says, if they don't like the depictions of sex scenes being fade to black, then probably they didn't like how it's written in the books as RJ uses fade to black as one of the methods of having sex in the writing without having to write out what happens in the sex scene.

[01:11:41] As for Avian and Elaine, I have more understanding here since it is presented much differently than the heteronormative romances with RJ not communicating to the audience they are a romantic couple the way he does with, say, Nine Even Land. Then you add on the phrase sister wives with the sister part of that construction, creating a sense of incestuous relationship between siblings.

[01:12:03] And sister wives again, like we saw, sorry, I was going to call her Amis, Bear and Leanne in, you know, Ruark's wives. And we also saw, well, they're not sister wives, but first sisters, Bain and Chiades. I think we can also bring this conversation. But anyway, for myself, I'm not bothered by the word sister wives as a familial phrases are established as usable for relationships with people that you are not kin with.

[01:12:31] The Aes Sedai with sister and daughter. Yeah, it's indeed. The Aes Sedai call their sister sisters. The, you know, Amaralyn Seed's mother. She calls everyone daughter. It's actually funny. It took me a while to establish that, um, God, what is her name? Varen's sister, Adelaide is actually her sister and not just her. Her sister. I said I sister. Lowercase s. Yes, that's right. I too have the same reaction. Yeah. I'm still only 90% sure. No, they are.

[01:13:00] They, yeah, there's, they're, cause she's, Varen's taking the place of Vendine from the books. Right. Um, okay. So too long. Didn't read their sex in the wheel of time. Avian and Elaine are a thing, but I can see how some think otherwise and would prefer a robust relationship that is familial and or platonic in nature between them. Okay. Do you want to take the next one, John?

[01:13:24] Jacques says, I love the book series because it's a fantasy series that isn't overtly sexy. Obviously there is sex in the books, but it is off page for the most part. It's nice to watch fantasy and not feel like you're watching something X rated. I'm probably super British, but I've got kids in the house. So I'm resorting to watching my shows on the treadmill at the gym. Do you know how awkward it is to watch intimate scenes in public? I mean, I, I would imagine I, I too would not watch this at the gym.

[01:13:54] Yeah. Yeah. Also the violence. If it comes on with one of those scenes, I'd be like leaning over the treadmill to like block it. Fast forward two minutes. I'd probably be blocking the violence more than the sex personally, but. From, from kids. Sure. For in public, the public will not bat an eye at you watching a violent show, which if you're watching a movie on a plane, what are you going to watch? It's not.

[01:14:21] It's, it's what's going to make people think I'm a weirdo is what I'm worried about. Like, I don't remember there was some last time I was flying, I was like, should I do the violent Marvel movie? Or should I do something that I I'm worried might have like one boob? And I was like, no way do I want someone to think I'm watching, you know? And it's just, it's, it's a dumb aspect of society. That's such a, yeah, that is real. It is a very American thing. Especially Americans are famous for being more afraid of sex than violence. Yeah. Which seems silly if you think about it, because which is more dangerous? Yeah.

[01:14:50] And like, look, I, I think both things need to be censored from kids. But for, for the general public, I understand, like, I don't know why we are so much more afraid of sex than violence because violence, like you say, Alicia is, is much more damaging. Like sex is a, sex is a natural part of life. Violence isn't. Mm-hmm. I mean, I guess you could argue that both are, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to take the next one, Mark? Sure.

[01:15:17] Ryan B says, as a queer person whose sexuality is a very important part of myself, I feel there is something dark about the way much of our mainstream society puts boxes around what the appropriate outlets are for talking about sex. It's the who and the when and the how. People connecting with each other, enjoying each other, loving each other. This is the emotional core of just about every story I've ever cared about. And when sex isn't a part of that, well, that becomes conspicuous about whose values we are choosing to represent and respect.

[01:15:45] I think I might be in a bad mood today because of other reasons. But the thing that keeps popping into my head is that I am not convinced that some people's discomfort with being exposed to sex and sexuality outweighs my discomfort of living in a society that wants me to bury those parts of myself. Yeah. And I do think that one is specifically responding to objections that people had to Elaine and Avienda hooking up. Which is interesting because that one didn't bother me because that taught me something new.

[01:16:12] And again, we didn't really watch a hookup, did we? We saw them start to kiss and then we faded to black. Great. You gave me all the information you needed to give me. I got it. And that's what I mean by like, I don't want it to be gratuitous. I want as much as I need to get the thing across and then we'll move on because we have how many seasons? Maybe, maybe none more, but hopefully for five more seasons to wrap up this massive story.

[01:16:41] And I don't need a three minute scene of let's get it on. I mean, I liked the hot hookups between Rand Fear, even though, yeah, I will agree that that is definitely way amped up from the books between those two. But it also like it sells it to me. Like, why is he so smitten with someone he knows is a freaking forsaken?

[01:17:05] And like, well, you know, because she's good in bed and that honestly will do a lot with a lot of people. So, I mean, I think just to the point in general, I think whether we could say, okay, sure, Rand is a 20 something dude. So, the world could be ending and he's still probably motivated in a certain point through sex or whatever. But regardless of that aspect, it's a very important part of people's lives.

[01:17:32] Sexuality is a very important part of people's identities, their choices, their family relationship, their friend relationships. And it is, there is something a little weird about like the sort of Tolkien approach where like nobody, I know there's the line like what you want to see Sam and Frodo pooping or whatever on the journey. I get that. But like, that's not somebody's, that's not an important part. A highlight of anybody's week is those body functions.

[01:17:59] But sex is a bodily function that is highlight of people's weeks. And so it is, and it does motivate and it does cause entire wars in Greek tragedies and things like that. So, it does make sense that it at least needs to be acknowledged in some capacity, I would think. Yeah, acknowledged for sure. And yeah, like I wouldn't want them to be like, we can't put queer relationships on the screen.

[01:18:22] I know that was actually, I don't know if anyone's been keeping up on White Lotus, but apparently there was a trans reference scrubbed from the White Lotus script. Really? When certain events happened. Yeah. And you know what? Mike White has come out and been like, it wasn't really that reason. It was more that like I wanted to do a more thoughtful approach than like, and this was going to be more of a throwaway line. And like, I understand that if that was the case. So, I don't want to jump to too many conclusions. But, you know, I don't want them to start scrubbing sexuality, especially from the screen.

[01:18:52] No. Sexuality and gender identity. Yeah. I take issue with the act itself. Everyone, I'm a Puritan only in the act itself. Right. Right. Okay. So, sharing two somewhat contrasting opinions. So, we have Jesse says, about Avi Lane, I'm sure you know by now how much my, I know Jesse's a friend of mine. I'm sure you know how much my baby gay self wept when it happened. The subtext was always there for those that recognized it.

[01:19:22] As far as the sex, I'm honestly at a loss. There's so much sex in the books and it's not, it's just not explicit smut. I can only, and she says, by the way, someone who writes smut herself. And respect, it's a valid genre. Again, everyone's painting me as like the most prudish person in the world. Two times, everybody. He's had sex twice. He's not a prude. Two children.

[01:19:50] But, I mean, but Jesse's just saying here, like she, she's, you know, definitely not anti-smut herself. But she thinks that there is sex in the books. It's just not explicit. And she says, I can only assume that people just didn't pay close attention to the fade outs and the context clues before and after these moments. And then Echo Sedai says, I love that sex happens, but it's not all up in your face. So prudes like me don't get turned off. So. I mean, John, you're not saying nobody's having sex. It's just there aren't sex.

[01:20:20] Like, that was my clarification. But you agree with that, right? Like, yeah, there are a lot of fade to blacks, especially in the second half of the book. But, but it's, it's also their prudes. Like, all of this is true. Yeah. So, Beelissa agrees with you, John. You want to take that one? Thank you, Beelissa, for defending me. Hi, Lorehounds. I was interested in your discussion about how romantic relationships are portrayed in the show versus the books. I tend to agree with John because John's right. And John has always been right about everything. And I'm not adding this as John reading this.

[01:20:51] I have read the first three books and I'm about one-fifth of the way through book four. So, I have a clear memory of some details without being spoiled or revised by leader relationship development. And I have to say that that is also perhaps something that a lot of us are guilty of is that we remember things even better. Like, in a lot of ways, it feels like the books really start with book four, the events of this season. And at this point, they do be banging.

[01:21:22] They do be. I don't believe Ren and Gwaine in the books were actually sexually intimate up through the beginning of book four. They've been promised to each other and probably kissed, but I think that's as far as it went. I don't believe Ren and Selene were intimate either. I think he thought she was beautiful and there was an attraction and some flirting, but that's as far as it went. Then, at the beginning of book four, he learned who she was. This is different from how he learned in the show.

[01:21:48] I would say that while there are definite hints of romantic relationships, many of these in the early books are at least are hints. And if readers want to imagine more explicit physical relationships, they can do so. It could be argued that some of that is supported by the books and it's very understated. It's one of those things that people on both sides of this argument can make a good case for their opinion. I may totally change my mind as I keep reading, but that's what I think right now. Thanks for your great content. Thank you, Belisa.

[01:22:17] Thank you, Belisa, for defending my honor and my opinions. Do you also want to take Erin B? She also agrees with you. Okay. Erin B, thank you too. Listening to your episode one podcast, I just wanted to say that I absolutely did not read a sexual relationship between Elaine and Avienda in the books. I've read them several times and that thought literally never occurred to me.

[01:22:42] I feel like the books emphasize more body positive philosophy and a general closeness between the women among the IELs. So that made it make sense to me without adding anything sexual to it. Personally, I don't care that they added it, but I never got it from the books. Thanks for the great podcast. Yeah, I mean, I hadn't read it in either, but I was fine with it. Yeah, same. Yeah.

[01:23:06] I think the Moiraine Swan thing is a bit more sort of spelled out because there's terms they use, pillow friends and all that in the spring. And I think there are aspects to Elaine and Avienda, especially as the story goes on, that could read that in. But I never caught it. I'll tell you that. Yeah. I mean, okay. Do you want to, on that note, do you want to take the next three together? Sure. They sort of wrap up this arc. Blood knife to all, Barry.

[01:23:36] I think people are struggling with the timing of Avelaine because we don't really get any of that connection until later in the books. The audience is having to see it have a longer arc. I certainly saw subtext when I read the books, but it wasn't explicit. Uh, Cyrinelle says, I feel like it's only easy to miss as a possibility if one had the privilege of growing up not having to live on exactly these kind of crumbs. Because that's generally all that was allowed.

[01:24:02] Though I did start reading until 2023, I didn't start reading until 2023. The handling felt very familiar to older mainstream stuff. And Sub-Zero. Personally, I'd rate Wheel of Time as a solid PG-13, at least when it comes to sex. Plenty of references and innuendos, but nothing explicit. Clearly, this is a society where sex is not taboo. I love how the showrunners sped up the pace of relationships. I always felt like Jordan wasted a lot of time on courtship.

[01:24:30] Is Sub-Zero saying the show or the book is PG-13? Mm-hmm. Because they're not rated the same. The show is, does indeed have more sex than the books, no matter what people want to say. It does have more. Mm-hmm. And more violence. Sort of. I mean, people die in the books, so it's like, it's visual media, which is inherently different, but. There's some kind of tortury stuff in the books. Right.

[01:24:59] I do want to go back to what Cyrinelle said, especially just about the fact that, and I think that this is a major factor that you'll see, that there's especially a lot of queer women who read Avienda and Elaine as a couple, whereas a lot of straight men didn't. And I'm not saying it follows exactly on those lines, definitely not. But I think that there is a certain amount of people looking for that.

[01:25:28] And I'm counting myself amongst that, you know, just looking for, keeping an eye out for like, like with the pillow friends with Moraine and Swan, like we know what that means. And then there are some, I don't want to spoil any future plot stuff with Avienda and Elaine, but there are some just things that feel pretty explicit about, about them knowing like quite a lot about each other's bodies, things like that. But, um, so I think there's definitely, that's a factor as well.

[01:25:57] The perspective that you're coming in with. This is written by a man. This is written by a boomer or something like that generationally. And there are also female platonic relationships that are different from the ones that men are often socialized to have. Like a heteronormative set of women, for example, might have a close friendship that is already different from what a typical man might have with his closest friends.

[01:26:26] And so I'm thinking from the perspective of Robert Jordan, like, yes, maybe he was speaking this secret language that like had to be kind of hidden. It was the nineties and you couldn't kind of come out with it. But, but also like the guy doesn't really understand the depths of the way women interact particularly well, honestly, from a lot of his writing. So it's also possible. And I'm not at all saying Cerenel is wrong because I have my own biases as a, you know, cisgendered man.

[01:26:54] Like I, I'm not so confident in his ability to control nuance in female character writing anyways. And so maybe this is just what he, his way of describing, like, you know, the sort of stereotype of like, oh, what are women doing in the bathroom? Are they talking about their partner's penises? Are they getting naked in the locker room?

[01:27:15] Are they doing like, like, of course these two best friends or whatever, these two close women friends would know the curve of each other's bodies because that's what women do together. Like, so I'm not saying at all these readings are wrong. And I very much empathize with the sort of crumbs idea that you have to find it where it is because it wasn't out there in, in fiction in a very, certainly not a positive way in this era much. But it's also possible that's his way of writing BFFs.

[01:27:44] And we just don't, whereas Moraine and Swan, I feel like even while he was alive, he probably, he did me comment at one point that, yeah, you know, there was a little something, you know, it's those lonely nights in the White Tower. Like that might've been a thing for, for, for, for a juvenile friendship or whatever in the White Tower. So I know that would, that would just be my one defense of all us totally clueless dudes is that he was one of us is the truth.

[01:28:09] And I know he had a kind of a complicated previous relationships and stuff like that, Robert Jordan, but, um, he's right. He's the one who's trying to control that story. And maybe he wasn't very clear about it in his own head. Okay. Well, I will say, so I included, uh, two quotes in this feedback from this article on the Hollywood Reporter, an interview with Rafe Judkins called wheel of time showrunner on expanding shows, queer universe and season three in the high fantasy.

[01:28:39] Genre. It was worth devoting my life to that's the title. And, um, so after we get to the spoiler section, there is a quote from him on this subject where he quotes Robert Jordan and he, Robert Jordan basically said at one point, he's like, Oh, well, I think like 30 to 40 or so percent of the people in this universe are queer.

[01:29:02] Um, so he did actually think that, but I think also there was a certain, there was a certain self-censorship in a way. Uh, but I also wanted to shift gears now and pull, I pulled another quote from this same article and just to talk about the platonic relationships in this show. Can I just say one more thing on that last thing you mentioned? Like, where are the men romancing men then? Right?

[01:29:30] Well, ask the Matt and Telmonis fans. I was actually thinking about that, but I didn't want to bring Telmonis. Telmonis is definitely not going to be in this, by the way. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah, maybe. But so like they're broadening this and they've brought us the waters.

[01:29:46] That is that, that, you know, the male romance and stuff with other men, but that if, if the Aes Sedai pillow friends and Elaine and Avienda have these little glimmers in the books, everything else is just even if there's men engaging in, you know, queer relationships, it's even lower. Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely looking for crumbs for that. Yeah. And I mean, I know you're about to go into platonic stuff, Alicia.

[01:30:16] I always look forward to is these intimate platonic relationships because that's something. And when we had somebody write in, I can't remember your name. I'm sorry if you're listening, but we had somebody write in and severance and ask because I had mentioned some feminist reading and they asked, can I have some feminist books to get my husband? And one that I gave is called deep secrets.

[01:30:35] And it's, it's about studies done on boys becoming men and how essentially when you're a little boy, you have very close, very intimate friendships. You know, you are sharing everything. You are telling your best friend everything. You are sleeping over. You are playing all the time. And then there comes a point where society says, that's not normal for you to be that close with another man.

[01:31:01] And you, and you basically have this like heartbreak where you don't have as many close male friends anymore. And, and later you can, a lot of adults will rebuild that. And, and I, I like to think I, I have very close male friends. Uh, and I do think that we lack in media, especially with men, but in women too, we lack in media enough depictions of intimate platonic relationships. You know, this, these forms of intimacy that are not romantic.

[01:31:32] And I, and I hope we see more of that. And I think we are seeing that this season with more of that Matt Perrin and Rand sitting around a table drinking and laughing together. Like I, I, that is something that I think is in the wheel of time more than a lot of other fiction. And I hope we get more of. So I'll say if people are, you know, interested in, in some of incredibly good films that explore this concept you're saying,

[01:31:57] where young boys are kind of like told that they're unnaturally close and how does that affect their relationships? Um, there are two films that recent films I would recommend. One is a Belgian film called close. And the other is a Japanese film called monster. And they, the two sets of boys in each film handle it different ways. And they are just two of like the best films of recent years. So that's fascinating. I got to check these out. Thank you.

[01:32:24] Um, but yeah, so here's what Rafe Jedkins had to say in the same article about the platonic relationships. He says, I think that there is something about the water bond that is absolute vulnerability that you have this other, uh, with this other person, especially for a character like Moraine, who in some ways is more unguarded with Lan than she is with Swan, the love of her life. There's such beauty in that relationship.

[01:32:48] To me, the one thing I found really powerful about it, especially with Moraine and Lan is we don't often get to see beautiful platonic friendships between men and women. So to people, it feels queer because it doesn't feel like a part of our world that a woman and a man could have such a deep and special friendship with one another. And, um, just to add to that, Jesse says, I adore Swan and Moraine. Nine even Lan are perfect.

[01:33:12] She says, Avian and Elaine make me kick my feet in glee, but the platonic relationships are the ones that own my heart. Moraine and Lan, Nine even Rand, others yet to come. I love them all so very much. Can we get a hear, hear from John? Hear, hear. Hear, hear. I want more platonic close relationships. Like, and not just like we're friends, but like we are, we are tight, right? Like we are, you know, hand in hand.

[01:33:38] We are not just laughing together, but we are entrusting each other with our deepest secrets. Right. Well, I mean, I've loved, uh, Matt's being one of the wonder girls for that reason. Like he and Nynaeve have had an unexpectedly close relationship this season. Yeah, I agree. That was, that was great. I wanted to say about the, is this a Rafe quote? Mm-hmm. He says like, it feels strange that a man and a woman could have a deep special friendship. I feel like the show is telling us that even in that world, that's unusual.

[01:34:08] Do you remember Nynaeve in, Nynaeve in season one, I think? Seeing Moraine and Lan together, and she couldn't kind of escape the notion that they had, that must have been a romantic thing. Right? Like she, even in this world, they are jumping to that conclusion. That a close, intimate bond has to be romantic. Um, I don't remember the scene. To be fair, they are- It might have been the scene at the fire or something. Yeah. To be fair, they are taking naked baths together. They take naked-

[01:34:34] But like, so the, but obviously that would be eyebrow raising in this world, but it is also eyebrow raising in their world is, is the point. Like it's, it's not so, now the Aiel different, right? But it's not so different from our sort of perspective having been written by a, you know, 20th century American man, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:34:57] And you can, and you see that, you know, um, there certainly are a lot of water bonds that are sexual in nature. Exhibit A. Alana. Right. Yeah. Can I just say like, I sort of, it's annoying because it happens so much, but I kind of wish we got the constant mental check-in of the three boys thinking the other two are far better with women than they are.

[01:35:25] Like Rand's like, oh man, if Matt and Perrin were here, they'd know what to say. And then Perrin's like, if Matt and, and it's so stupid, but all these years later, I'm like, I kind of miss that. I kind of need a little bit more of that. Um, it's just so dumb, but, but, uh, it kind of gets me. I don't even know how you would put that in the show, right? Like you're not going to have Rand going like, you know, Marine, if Matt were here, I would send him right up to Avienda. No.

[01:35:53] When he's in bed with Lanphier, he's like, God, Perrin would be so much better. Oh my God. You know, every, when you were talking before Alicia about like, you know, or I don't know if it was Alicia or Mark saying like, good sex will make you overlook a lot of things. I was thinking one of you is going to take out the hot, crazy scale from how I met your mother. Yeah. Where is Lanphier on the hot, crazy scale? I mean, we know she, she's the top right corner. Canonically.

[01:36:23] Yeah. I mean, isn't she canonically like the most beautiful woman in the world? Like that. Yeah. Yeah. It's the same. Super naturally. So possibly. Right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. All right. Do you, um, John, do you want to take some fashion commentary? I love fashion. I'm very bad at it. Uh, we're going to hat gate. Mm hmm. Amos says. Hello, lore hounds.

[01:36:50] I thought I'd chime in on the Marines hat controversy. I too found the hat jarring at first. However, I think it is actually a clever callback to the books in shadow rising and fires of heaven. Matt in Matt is with Rand and the others in the waste. And there is a subplot of Matt wearing this big straw hat that everyone thinks is goofy, but he's like, I don't care. It keeps the sun off me. So despite my initial dislike of Marines hat, I think it is a showrunner's nod to Matt's straw hat from the book.

[01:37:19] Loving the season so far and the show and your coverage and its highlights of the week. Happy hounding Amos. P.S. Here's me putting down internet points that we will see the stone of tear fall in the season finale. All right. I love the hat point. I love the hat point. I don't think there's going to be time for tear this season. I think that they're just saving all of the tear action and condensing it into one thing for a future season.

[01:37:49] But at least they. Not that that's necessarily a thing that happens in the books, by the way. Right. Well, I mean, they set up at the beginning of the season, like you need to go to tear. There's this. The prophecy says it should happen. Yeah. Well, this person, I don't know if they are even a book reader. I think they're they're pulling from the prophecies. Yeah. Right. I mean, yeah, that was set up in episode one. So about the hat, that's a really good call about the mat hat. However, the thing about the mat hat is people are making fun of them. Yeah.

[01:38:17] So nobody's making fun of Moraine ever about anything. But like it's for it to be a reference. It would have needed to have been like, I don't know, Rand wearing it and everybody making fun of him. Moraine is kind of untouchable. No one's going to tease Moraine about anything. But that's the thing that's missing. It's kind of a joke with with Matt, whereas Moraine's hat feels like she just it's time to do some gardening or something. I'm team. She packed for tear. OK, Rand did not tell her that they were going to the waste until she was already ready to go.

[01:38:46] So I'm heading to my friend Ina Gardner's house. She's invited me over for strudel. OK, we just have a quickie but an important reminder we needed, says Nancy. Thank you, Nancy. Abby says, I like how the showrunners reminded us that these five are friends. And yeah, they've been doing a good job with that this season. I've been saying. Yeah.

[01:39:16] Mark, do you want to take the two about Avienda's calling? All right. Maureen D. Avienda, avoiding her calling is what actually brought Rand to the waste to take the test. So it seems to have been part of a bigger plan. If chance, you call it. Hmm. Abby says, as a non-book reader, I was surprised by Avienda's calling and I fell for her when those beloved spears of hers got broken. Yeah. It's very, very wasteful, by the way.

[01:39:45] Rand's journey through the glass tower answered the question about why the Aiel dislike swords. The whole way the leaf and true Aiel made me think. So the Twatha'an are true Aiel or they just borrow the ideology? They were also Aiel. We'll pause. Yeah, we'll pause there because they also, they were the first ones to break their oaths because they were supposed to take care, the true Aiel were supposed to take care of like the trees and the other treasures of the Aes Sedai and the Twatha'an were the first to be like, no, we'll do the way of the leaf part, but we're out.

[01:40:15] Yeah. So the Twatha'an split off before the scene. Remember in the backing up through history, the people leaving to go south happens before the guys who commit violence. Right? So they, they, they kept the way of the leaf, but they lost the, the true Aiel mission. Yeah.

[01:40:37] So finishing Abby's thoughts, is the Aiel really a race of redheads or a philosophy that got severed geographically and ideologically through ideolog, oh my gosh, geographically and ideologically through embracing the way of the spear dancing. The other tribe guy, that's his name, right? That other tribe guy did remind me of an imitation of Khal Drogo. He is budget chief. I assume that's, that's Kuladin, yeah. The wise one, Savannah, and her elaborate getup reminded me of the Lady of Suroth in season two.

[01:41:07] Lady Suroth. I theorized that she might also be a dark friend. I'm probably wrong. So I have some thoughts about this redhead thing. Um, I think they have completely undermined the idea of this extremely diverse cast, which is cool to see, right? We have characters that are, you know, European descent. We have an Australian Aboriginal actor.

[01:41:33] We have, uh, Asian descending actors all mixed up. And it sort of makes sense in this, um, endless churning of the world, right? Through the wheel of time that like genetic code will be splashed all over the world and wouldn't necessarily follow a strict evolutionary path. Then why does Rand walk by Loyal in the season one? He goes, wow, you got red hair like an Ironman. Like it just, I think you all have probably mentioned this.

[01:42:02] It just undermines it a lot. The fact that everybody, anybody can look like anything, but people see a redhead and they're like, what? You must be from, uh, east of the spine, right? It's just, it just undermined it a little bit. But, you know, people do that to me all the time when people ask me if I'm Irish. I'm not, by the way. And it's not even that like all Irish.

[01:42:26] I have a lot of Irish friends and I can't even think of any off the top of my head that have red hair, but people I walk by or, okay. It's not like I walk by like that, but you know, people are like, oh, say you must be Irish. Like, no, I'm actually not. It's just people have these stereotypes. But we do live in a world that has ethnic groups that come from certain regions that in certain cases have visual markers associated with them.

[01:42:54] All the Irish people I know, yeah, pretty much like just running through my head real quick. And I'm thinking like dark hair, brown hair, dark hair, brown hair, you know, not even redheads, but it's just a stereotype people have. Sure, but I think in this series, the TV series specifically, we're supposed to essentially associate there being no phenotype kind of regional characteristic look. Also, this is one continent.

[01:43:23] And so the idea that there would be massive differences wouldn't necessarily be as true as if we're talking about across the world on Earth, right? But we're supposed to sort of understand that in the Westlands, there isn't really a look to any one region that everybody just pretty much can look like whatever because of all sorts of reasons, except for in the ideal ways where it seems like they have an actual phenotype. If I'm using that word correctly, that why is that the only part of the world?

[01:43:49] But I don't think it's the only part of the world because, for instance, in Two Rivers, like when Rand first meets Aleda, she's like, oh yeah, I see the height in the hair. That's a thing. But then also she comments that, you know, his skin is too pale to be from the Two Rivers because everyone from the Two Rivers is described as having dark hair, dark eyes and very tan skin.

[01:44:12] Or if you think about Saldé, they're always described as having like tilted almond eyes and high cheekbones and a hawk. But you're talking about the books. Yeah, I'm talking about the books. Yeah. I agree that in the books, absolutely each region of the continent has a look, right? There's the, yeah, the almond eyes. There's the sort of darker, turbaner look. I'm saying the show. In the show, they've kept that for the most part. They, I mean, it's not like.

[01:44:41] No, look at Emmons Field. Like Emmons Field is. Which is Two Rivers for anyone who's a non-reader. Okay, sorry, sorry. The Two Rivers is absolutely diverse in every possible way. And they are mostly with the dark tan skin and dark hair and eyes. And if you go to like the borderlands on the east side, and they did actually lay this out on a map and in terms of like fashion and stuff. But if you go to the borderlands and the eastern borderlands, they are more east Asian.

[01:45:09] And the western borderlands, like, or, you know, going further west, like RFL, where Alana's from, you get more of like the southeast Asian sort of looks and cultural influences. But then still, you know, it's not uniform because like in Faldara, yeah, it's a lot of east Asian people. And then there's also Uno. They have this white blonde guy. So it's not uniform, but there is still a prevalent look per region.

[01:45:38] But if you had these insular communities, you wouldn't have just a prevalent look. You'd have not uniformity, but you'd have a much closer range. And we don't have that in the show. And that's fine. I see Mark's point of like, it only really matters a little bit with the Aiel. That's the only one where they're like, this look is so characteristic.

[01:45:58] Like you said, the eastern borderlands, like, okay, I think if you take the Shinarans who we like know by name, like Lord Algamar, Inghtar, and Uno, I would say each of those three guys, the actors probably hails from potentially a different continent. And that is really cool. Uno's the one out there. Yeah.

[01:46:23] I would say, I would say that's, that's not necessarily, I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. But I don't know the lineage of the actors necessarily. But, but with the Aiel, it's like a big deal. They look different, everybody. When like, you say that the Two Rivers folks all look similar, and I don't think so at all. I think they look like a wildly diverse, lovely mix of really good actors. And they did that on purpose to just say, you know what, in this show, it's not important, except it matters for the Aiel. And I just think that's a misstep. I think at that point, just throw it out and don't have the red hair anymore.

[01:46:52] Just have it be the Aiel or just who the Aiel are. Well, okay. I think it would have been rightfully upsetting to people if they threw out the red hair thing. But I think that there's, first of all, for the Two Rivers, I think it's, that they're, they are from different parts of the world, the actors. But I think there's a certain similarity in the, in the coloring that reflects what is described in the books. And for the most part, you know, Matt's obviously not fitting in with that, but whatever.

[01:47:13] But I think with the Aiel, the reason why people are always marking that is because in the wetlands, they are afraid of the Aiel. So there is this kind of, this fear obsession with it. You know, it's like when we see, I don't know, it's like if you see like a, how do you, like a cheetah.

[01:47:38] Yeah, that's a bad analogy, but like, it's just people are hyper aware of the Aiel, especially in the wake of the Aiel war, which is, you know, when obviously that Rand was born during the Aiel war. So that's, it was recently, it was like 20 something years ago. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I see both your points.

[01:47:59] I, I think I, I'm kind of with Mark that like, if you weren't going to have uniform red hair on the Aiel, just get rid of the trade entirely just because it might be confusing to people. But then what? I want a diverse cast and I, and honestly, I don't think the hair color really matters that much in the end. It's just, it's just a clue earlier on. But now that we've solved it, once you solve that he's Aiel, it doesn't really matter, right? It does not matter that much that he, he has the same hair color as the Aiel. I think of, you know, I'm reading the Stormlight archive right now.

[01:48:27] There's a whole like class system based on eye color. You can make any of these traits matter if you, if you're out of your fantasy world. But if, if the only thing that's going to matter is like red hair might be an Aielman and then we've solved it. He's, he's descended from the Aielman. Like who, who fucking cares after that? I'm going to call back to the comments I made in the lore cast last week that the fact that in the age of legends, there was an entire ethnic group that whose lot in life was to serve the Aes Sedai. Yeah, sure.

[01:48:54] Peacefully is creepy to me and problem and a dystopian thing. So why in the age of legends did all the farmers assistants have to have red hair? That's weird. This is a cosmopolitan society with, with flying spaceships and whatever, or not spaceships, but flying buildings and things like that. Like, yeah. So that's weird. So I stand by that. Look, the founding fathers, I'm done. No, I'm not going to go. I'm not going to do it. All right.

[01:49:22] Should we go to another contentious topic, which actually there's only one piece of feedback here, but I'll say there was a lively debate, not even debate on the discord, but a lot of people hating on the way of the leaf. I mean, it is garbage. It's absolute horseshit. I'll just say it right now. Do you want to read what Fred wrote about it? Sure. Fred, it's getting late. So now I'm cursing more.

[01:49:46] Fred, how Jordan and now the show have handled the inherent tension in the way of the leaf is a theme in the books that I've always loved. I think most people would find at least a watered down version compelling. I mean, wouldn't it just be nice?

[01:50:28] But there are bad people in the world. It is a murderer. Which is how they saw it. Yeah. I mean, I think we're supposed to struggle with the idea of the way of the leaf, but I can tell people in the discord definitely struggling with it. When we first meet the 12th on in the books and also in the series, I feel like they did a pretty good job. It's through the Perrin and Egwene meeting Aram and hanging out and seeing a bunch of people dancing and partying and loving life. And that is really easy to empathize with.

[01:50:56] You could see what everybody's afraid of, which is that your teenagers are going to run away to live with the Tinkers. That's why people don't want them nearby. They're going to steal from you and your kids will run away because that life is attractive. In a time of Tarmungaiden, the last battle coming, in the time of the breaking of the world, though, it is a little harder to understand that anybody ever recruiting very well. The dedicated could try to survive the best they can, but it is hard.

[01:51:25] I do wonder, like, the one guy who, I don't remember his name, like Adon or something, the one who remains with his grandfather or whatever, and they go on and they're going to keep going even though all the people split off. How did they recruit more people to their cause? And because there's like what we're supposed to understand there, or even the scene where the hobbits draw weapons and actually break the way of leaf and become the Aiel as we know it.

[01:51:55] But there's only three guys. Did they recruit more people along the way? Why do those people have red hair, right? Like, I do think in these times of great upheaval, it's really hard to understand how the way of the leaf would attract followers and grow. I can see in the start of this series how in a time of relative peace, you could wander around and or and not actually be harassed, really, because the white cloaks aren't going to bother you. There are no Trollics anywhere in sight.

[01:52:23] But in these other scenarios, I don't really see how it would work. I would rather join the Tuatham than the Aiel personally. I think being in the Aiel Waste would be rough. Yeah, but even on the other side, just culturally. But are we supposed to understand that the two of those forces were able to recruit to build up an entire population? Because that seems like what they're telling us, even though at some point there was a bottleneck of three men who were the Aiel.

[01:52:52] Three men somehow grew to be an entire civilization. Yeah. They obviously attracted people to their quest. Right. Yeah. And there were. Defending the Gen Aiel. Yeah, there were questions about how did the Gen Aiel die out? And I was saying, I assume that they just joined. Like, who else were they exposed to? They were exposed to the Violin Aiel and to the Tuatham. So I assume that they just kind of dissolved into those two groups. Must be. Right. So related to this, John, do you want to take Marilyn's thoughts?

[01:53:23] Marilyn, our favorite Tolkien scholar, right? So here are a couple of thoughts after having read books one and two. I'm about a quarter of the way into book three. I find it interesting that while the power of evil has a physical manifestation in the world, good is so abstract as to be nothing more than light. The wheel exists, it seems, in a completely amoral position. Neither good nor evil, simply what it is, and utterly immovable in its act.

[01:53:49] There are multiple examples of people turning to the dark, but few turning to the light, other than in supplication. There is no embodiment of the light. Even the children of the light are clearly represented as not being good, but rather fanatical, and utterly convinced of the rightness of their interpretations and actions. Then there are the Tuathwan, but they are represented as being essentially helpless and naive, as are most groups who are committed to nonviolence.

[01:54:17] They also have a tradition of hospitality, which they adhere to. Within all these groups, of course, people are mean, angry, and calculating. But I think more of their moral alignment, as it were, though not in a Dungeons & Dragons sense, where you can choose your alignment or you can roll for it. It's very difficult to find Aes Sedai who are what one might consider good in the sense of kind or considerate. I mean, yes, Gandalf has his grumpy days, but please.

[01:54:46] And now we learn that Aes Sedai, too, will turn to the dark side. Moreover, their oath to never lie is simply an invitation to engage in dissimulation and deception. Obviously, I don't know any backstory, so perhaps there are more explanations. Clearly, there is a great deal at stake. But I have to think that Jordan doesn't think a whole lot of humanity. Even the hero does his best to flee his destiny. And while I certainly understand why he would do so, I expect I would as well,

[01:55:16] it's the hopelessness of it all that makes it a real downer at many times. At least by book three, Jordan appears to have found his plot lines and is doing a better job of telling a story. I actually wound up with a later evening than I wanted to last night because of sitting down and reading about what happened upon the three women's return to the White Tower. A lot there. Anybody want to take a stab first? Do you have thoughts? We've talked about a lot of this before.

[01:55:44] Yeah, I think we have. We are part of the Maryland recruitment effort to the Wheel of Time fandom. I think Maryland is resisting it, which is fine. We all like different media. I would say, you know, yes, a lot of people are not quite polite, but also can work for the good, right? Can work for people to have free will.

[01:56:13] Can work for people to not be enslaved to whatever darkness is going to be coming. And that kind of adds to the moral complexity, right? Like Lord of the Rings, for all its good, for all its complexity, I don't think it wrestles with the fact that like you usually don't have a Gondor at the end where you have a benevolent king who's going to do every single thing right. You usually do have like revolutions usually result in a government that is very flawed.

[01:56:43] But we, you know, all around the world, you see a revolution happening and you see that governing is a lot harder than taking down the governed. And so I actually think it's more realistic to have all these imperfect groups working together, trying to push in the right direction. Right. I would say that Gandalf also might be the only Istari that stayed good. That's true. Right? Yeah. So we don't know. The Blues might have stayed good. They might not have.

[01:57:12] If Radagast is not bad, but Radagast is D&D wise, true neutral. He just wandered off into the woods. He's a two-author. Sure. Yeah. And Saruman failed utterly in his mission. So like if we're saying Gandalf was always a nice dude who got grumpy sometimes, okay, but cool. He's the one possibly out of the five. So I think even in Tolkien, I mean, yes, there's a just king in Gondor.

[01:57:36] I mean, Tolkien's into the hierarchies and like the benevolent supermen and all that a little more maybe than a more modern author would be. But I don't think it's even that different. I think there's a lot of messed up people in Tolkien too. Hmm. Yeah. I mean, Feanor did nothing wrong, but other than that, you know, there's a lot going on. Yeah. I mean, we've talked about this before, so I won't say too much about it.

[01:58:03] But I do also think in Tolkien that you have the dark side, the broken and the angry are more palpable than distant Eru and, you know, the heavens. Yeah, I would agree with that. I think Tolkien, though, has his Valar on Earth that are a little bit more active. It has the Maiar like actually sending this.

[01:58:26] But then, like, I would actually compare Rand in a lot of ways to Gandalf because Rand is the champion of the light. He's what the gods of this world send. He's what the creator sends. Whereas in Tolkien, Gandalf is what the governing bodies of that world send. Yeah. I suppose they just make it more, they make it more suspenseful with, you know, which way will Rand go, which I like.

[01:58:55] And I guess that is one reason why Wheel of Time is my favorite fantasy, because I do think it strikes the realistic balance between good intentions and human foibles. And I say this as someone who does a regular podcast on Tolkien and loves it more than anything. I just think that Wheel of Time does have a level of realism that Tolkien is aspirational, I think, in a lot of ways.

[01:59:21] And I think it does pick up some fundamental truths of the world. And I think Wheel of Time sort of touches on different fundamental truths of the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we always use, as an example, Elida, who we can now say openly is an asshole, but also not a dark friend. So that's been confirmed in the TV show. So, Mark, do you want to take the two Elida lore pieces?

[01:59:50] Fred says, I think Elida was a contemporary of Moraine and Swan in the books, but had tested for the shawl a little earlier. Like within the previous five years. She had been making them miserable since. Their last prank before they tested for the shawl was against Elida. Something like releasing mice into her room. I do not remember how much older Elida is. We looked it up afterwards, and she is only slightly older in the books, although I'm fine with her being aged up. Yeah, that's fine.

[02:00:20] And Kasach says, could Elida's tremors and shakes be a result of being under compulsion, a la Lord Gabriel? Perhaps there is internal resistance manifesting physically? Yeah, I think that's an interesting theory. But now that we know that her bracelet that she keeps playing with has foxes and snakes on it, I have other theories as well. Mm-hmm. Have to say more later, right? Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. Yep. I don't know.

[02:00:50] There's foxes and snakes as a motif in the background a lot, and there's that game they were playing, so. But I've read all of these books, and I do not know why her hands have tremors. No, it's a new thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They added that. Yeah. Okay, Marilyn, this is the end of the quote-unquote spoiler-free feedback. Marilyn says, I was amused by your descriptions of the brown ajas in the bonus episode. Nerds, frumpy historians.

[02:01:16] Isn't it amazing how librarians get such a bad rap, even in fantasy literature? And I object to this, because I would never call them frumpy. I actually really, the brown ajas is my favorite. Like if, you know, in Harry Potter terms, I'm a Ravenclaw, and the brown ajas is closest to Ravenclaw. So they're one of my favorites, because there's so many different ajas. But I would want to be a brown ajas, and I think that they're really cool. I think nerds and historians are the coolest.

[02:01:48] And yeah, I don't think they have a bad rap at all. I think that they're one of the favorites by most book fans. That's my personal opinion. Also, Marilyn, haven't you heard of the sexy librarian trope? They don't have to be frumpy. Oh, gosh. All right. Well, that's the end of the book spoiler-free feedback. After the outro, and I guess maybe there'll be a quick commercial break, then we're going to do some full book spoiler discussion about some of these topics.

[02:02:18] But yeah, episode six, if you're leaving us now, thank you so much for listening. Episode six of The Wheel of Time is dropping like a day or so after this goes out. So that means our breakdown of that episode is dropping then as well. And shortly after that, there will be a lore cast for Supercast and Patreon subscribers plus season pass holders. And this one's going to be about talents with a capital T, which is a thing in this universe.

[02:02:45] Then there's also going to be an extra lore cast this week when Mark is back to talk more music. He doesn't quite know what yet, but has a somewhat of an idea. I always love discussing with a level of expertise something I've never heard before. Happy to have the challenge. You'll hear it on Thursday. And also subscribers and season pass holders.

[02:03:11] Just a reminder, you also have access to the show guide with episode guides and also character guides and all that stuff. And the ad free episodes, a playlist of those. Subscribers. So season pass holders, you just get The Wheel of Time stuff. Subscribers also do vote in this month's 11sies poll, which is about 2024 faves we missed. The voting just went live today and I saw actually a real pain was taking an early lead.

[02:03:40] Oh, I didn't even look. So we'll see if a better man and or kneecap catch up. And also, I guess our next mailbag, it's going to be at the end of the season. So do keep sending your thoughts to what at the lorehounds.com. Check the link tree in the show notes for links to all these things that we're discussing. And also the discord where we have like a whole forum set up for Wheel of Time discussion and all the other stuff. We also have coming up this week, Daredevil.

[02:04:10] Jean and I are talking about episodes of four through seven together. And also, we're already planning our first Doctor Who episode one reaction. We were like, we're not going to cover Doctor Who. And then we got a screener for it. We got screeners out. Maybe we'll do a little bit of it at least. Yeah. So at least episode one will be ready when that drops on April 12th on Disney Plus. And also check all the links for the affiliates.

[02:04:38] Like Mark, I was listening to Nevermind the Music. You had the sidetrack that came out. I think today where you were showing or how do you say showing in auditory terms to Nicole the theme song. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We were this week's sidetrack is these. She said sometime late in the season, you love those episodes where you play your own music. And I'm like, I hate them. They're very awkward. I wrote a bunch of theme music and I played it for Nicole.

[02:05:08] This is the first time anybody heard it or was that episode. Of course, this was recorded months ago. And then I don't know when this is coming up. But the next episode, the next full episode next week, we're doing Tune by Tears for Fears, which lots of psychology in there. Lots of cool music. But literally the band name is a psychology reference. The album name is a psychology reference. And so there's a lot of Nicole getting to teach me some stuff in that episode. So that's a fun one.

[02:05:37] And there's, I think, three guitar solos in this song, John. Do you know Everybody Wants to Rule the World? I don't know this. You don't? You don't know? Everybody wants to rule the world. It's a good song. I've never heard this in my life. You should check it out. That's not true. You're speaking another language to me. That would be a good prank, though, right? Everybody's like, haven't you heard this song? And everybody's singing it to you. It's like, happy birthday to you. No. Oh, I was thinking the other way.

[02:06:06] Everybody else makes up a song. Everybody in the room has agreed to try to convince me that this song exists. Yeah. And it just doesn't exist. Well, I think that would constitute them having to write a song. And so it does exist at that point. If they sing the whole thing, it's like they just wrote us off. Do you, John, do you want to take the reading of the names? The reading of the names from our archives.

[02:06:36] From the 13th Depository.

[02:07:06] Discord server boosters. Thanks, everyone. For all your support. It lets us do these super long feedback episodes. John's going to kill us now. I'm not going to kill anybody. I'm just going to complain. All right.

[02:07:36] Well, stick around until after the credits if you want to hear some White Tower talk with all the book spoilers. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds. You can send questions, feedback, and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and add free access to all our episodes at patreon.com slash thelorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. All right.

[02:08:06] Mark, do you want to read about Matt's memories from M. Will? M. Will says, I want to clarify about Matt's memories because I think they're really cool. In the books, Matt has big holes in his memories from the dagger, but they're still there and really bothering him. The memories are given to him by Eelfin because he asks for the holes in his mind to be filled in. They fill his memory with memories that they've taken from other people that have visited them. That's why they give answers, gifts.

[02:08:35] They feed off human experiences. What they do for most visitors is piggyback in their brains after the visitor returns to the regular world, which is why Matt's memories are from 2,500 to 1,000 years earlier. About Hawkwing's time, the Eelfin doorway was moved to a basement in Tear and people stopped going into it. So when the Eelfin savor Matt losing his eye or feed on Moorraine's power, that's what's going on.

[02:09:03] The Eelfin just gave Matt memories that they'd already stolen from previous visitors. I just love that this explains the Fin's gifts. They're luring people in to ride along in their visitors' heads for the rest of their lives. Hmm. Although they do say, tell Matt that he will become part of... So it's true, yeah, that he doesn't get his memories filled in until after this part that hasn't happened in the show yet. But... And those are the snakes and the foxes for anyone who just stuck around for the spoilers.

[02:09:33] But they do say to him that he will become... I mean, it sounds like they're telling him he's going to become a hero of the horn, basically. That he's going to be part of this repeating pattern. That's how I always read it anyway. I really didn't understand that... I thought he was regaining memories of his previous lives in Cycles of the Wheel. Yeah. He's having just other people's memories put into him, like...

[02:10:01] No, I think it is previous lives. Yeah, I think it's ambiguous. I think that... Because we do know that they savor... I mean, we know they savor, like, the suffering of humans. Yeah. The Finns. I wouldn't like it if it was just random people's memories. I think it's much more poetic if it's his past lives. Yeah. I mean, regardless... This is the... Hmm? No, as I say, regardless, they have slightly changed it for the show. And I do like what they've done with that.

[02:10:28] This is the plot line that I would have been most disappointed if they cut out. And I was worried with that stupid spear wrapped with the dagger. Oh, my God. Are they going to get rid of this? And then we see the... Yeah, there's been the snakes and foxes references this season. But also the hanging in the vision. I'm like, oh, thank God. Yes. Because I... That's the one thing. When I... That, like, got me through the stupid, like... I think it's like... I love these books.

[02:10:58] But I think it's four books that are struggle. And then Sanderson's not perfect. But, man, the Matt plot line... I know... I think, John, is it you that does not like the way Matt's character ends up? One of you. Ends up fine. I think book 12, rather. Because it's 12, 13, 14, Sanderson wrote. Yeah. Book 12, Matt is real rough. And then after that, he's like, okay. But... What's the one where they go into the tower? That's book 13. That's book 13. And... But the tower segments, I'm pretty sure, were written by Jordan.

[02:11:28] And so that's why they're good. Yeah. Yeah, there are, by the way, in these final books, there were entire sections that Jordan had already written. Right. Like, he definitely wrote... The ones that I know of are, like, the Matt segment with the tower and then Varin's My Dress is Green. Which, of course, that screams Jordan cleverness, right? But, yeah. I just think that Sanderson... And you know what's funny is, I'm actually reading The Way of Kings right now, I mentioned earlier in the podcast.

[02:11:59] And his humor has gotten better since I last read one of his books. Like, he's not trying as hard. But boy, was he trying hard in the first book with Matt and Talmatis. It was like... He was trying to make them, like, Laurel and Hardy. Like, Abbott and Costello. Like, really, like, a slapstick duo. And I was like, this just sucks, man. This just sucks. This is not Matt. Matt is subtly funny. You know what I mean? He's, like, subversively funny.

[02:12:25] You cannot have him, like, using Talmatis as his straight man like that. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I gotta reread those last three. I don't remember the vibe that way. I just remember the story being cool. Mm-hmm. And I'm glad it looks like we're getting some version of it. Yes. You know, I can forgive a lot of Sanderson's Matt. I will never forgive Sanderson's Talmatis.

[02:12:49] Talmatis is an unrecognizable character that is just straight out of Sanderson's nonsense. I just really, really don't care about Talmatis. That's the thing. Like, cool. Like, he's one of thousands of characters. So, like, I never had a, like, a vested interest in whether he was, like... My little pet peeve was always, what happened to Huron, man? We need more Huron. He's only in the Great Hunt, and then he disappears. I agree. I wish we had...

[02:13:18] Well, he does come back later for a big moment, but... Yeah. I barely even remember. All I know is it's ten books. Well, since we're in spoilers section, it's in the last couple books. It's... Yeah. And Rand meets him, and Huron's like, hey, Lord Rand, I love you. You're amazing. And Rand, like, chokes him out. Like, holds him up with the power. And that's one of Rand's realizing that, like, he has become a monster. He's a bad guy, yeah. I think this is going to get simplified, though.

[02:13:45] All this stuff about the way the Ielfin and the Ielfin are, and... It's going to be so much simpler in the show. Anyways. Anyways. So, now that we are on the spoiler side of the discussion, there is some more about the whole Elaine and Avienda thing. And the first thing is I just wanted to read that other excerpt from that interview in The Hollywood Reporter with Rafe Judkins that I mentioned.

[02:14:12] And he says, Rand's relationship is ultimately with Elaine and Avienda. It's a very serious relationship that they have, but it's crazy sometimes the things people remember about the books. They don't remember that there were black people in the books, even though it's literally described in the text. And they don't remember that Elaine and Avienda spend about 10 to 20 times more page counts with the two of them together than either of them ever does with Rand. Their relationship is a central relationship in that three-person relationship in the books.

[02:14:40] They get married, and Avienda talks about how she holds Elaine in her arms at night, and when she doesn't have her there, it's like a piece of her is missing. If you're a queer kid reading that in the 90s, you know what's happening. A lot of people who were not queer kids read it and didn't realize that's what was happening, but I think we are just taking what was in the pages of the book and putting it on screen. And so, okay, this part doesn't include what I said, but he does say elsewhere in the article

[02:15:06] about what I was saying about where he quotes Jordan saying that like 30 to 40 percent of the people are actually queer. So... Interesting. Yeah, I mean, again, totally valid if you're reading that in. Mm-hmm. But then on the other side, Sub-Zero says, Elaine and Avienda, wow, for a non-reader, this is plot slash character development for readers. Holy shit, what's happening? I guess me from 20 years ago just didn't catch the book clues.

[02:15:34] I thought that they were close friends. If Elaine and Avienda had their own relationship, then does it make me feel better about the Rand with the... Then it does make me feel better about the Rand with the three lovers thing. Now it's so... Not so Rand-centric anymore. So neither of them will be love interest for Rand and no baby for Rand and Elaine. They just wiped out characters and chapters of book lore. And this is where... Okay, I want to pause there. Okay, it says, I'm neutral to someone negative decision. Always happy to keep an open mind as long as you're not changing for change's sake.

[02:16:04] And I think, obviously, Jordan laid clear above. And this was my assumption even... Sorry, Jordan. So, you know, Robert Jordan's called RJ. So people call Rafe Judkins R2J2. So R2J2 laid out above, and this was my assumption anyway, that this absolutely does not take away them as love interest for Rand. It just makes them a more equal throuple.

[02:16:34] And we already got the Min saying something about a baby. So, although the baby kind of looks like Min that she saw in her vision. But anyway. I do think they have not been laying much groundwork between Rand and Elaine. Yes. And they really haven't been laying groundwork between Rand and Min, though. No. That, not at all. It's going to be... I'm a little worried that, like... I'm a little worried that it's going to come off like Lan and Nynaeve did in the books to me. Where I was like, wait, what? They're a couple now? I totally agree with you on that one.

[02:17:04] It was really badly foreshadowed in the books. I'm worried that it's going to be like... And now Min is like... Because, okay, I totally get... If you want a throuple, they're going to... By having Avienda and Elaine become a thing first is going to make it a little less, like, eye-rolly, kind of like... Mm-hmm. Escapist fantasy for a hetero dude to be like, I have these three women who love me. But to have that happen, and then Min walk in and be like, well, what about me? Yeah. They have not laid the groundwork.

[02:17:34] And I'm worried that's going to be just sort of like head-scratching for people. Well, okay. So for Elaine, I do think that they have been laying that groundwork nicely in a few things. Like, it's not up front yet, but we do have where she healed him at the end of last season, which I didn't love that she's the one who healed him because she's not really known to be a healer. But anyway, I see that that was a moment of connection, you know, where he sees her leaning over him.

[02:18:00] But then also what I especially appreciated from this season was, I guess this was in episode one, where we see Min really sitting down and advising him, you know, it's like, you know, you're in this new position, you're figuring things out. I've spent my entire life being tutored in this stuff. So let me give you some tips. So I see they're laying the groundwork there for Ran to turn to Elaine as a natural advisor and closeness to grow out of that. But yeah, Min, they haven't done that.

[02:18:30] But there's like, ideally, hopefully five seasons left. So I'm not too worried about that. It's not going to happen this season, obviously, and I don't think it should. Yeah. I'm totally fine if they write out the Min romance entirely. I think that's fine. Again, like people can be allies and advisors without being romantic partners. Yeah. Yeah. I don't mind if Min forges her own way in other ways, but I mean, I'm sure some people

[02:18:59] will object because she and Rand spend the most amount of time together in the books, actually, out of all of his thruple mates or quadruple mates. But again, it doesn't have to be romantic, right? Like he could still advise him. Mm hmm. And Eve Sedai was definitely rooting for them in the books. And he thinks that they were absolutely a couple. Leroy's dad was saying, took it at face value, that they were sisters. And it's 80s male gaze, this thruple. Yeah.

[02:19:28] But I think this point is when you really think about which is more scandalous, two women who are romantically in love with each other, who are also romantically linked to a man or two sisters romantically involved with the same man. I agree. I would rather them be a couple than sisters who are with the same man. Yeah. Fair enough. Uh, Fred on the Discord says Matt spends the entire series tipping barmaids for having pretty eyes, which I'm 90% sure is code for, well, something slightly below eye level.

[02:19:56] Well-turned calves is a nice code for behind if you're reading along at home. Yeah. Uh, yeah, this is a whole rant Fred has about how there is plenty of sex in the, uh, in the books. And I like, he spent a literal book nailing Melinda from the waist to carry in. Yeah. But again, do we see a single scene of it? A single scene? Not a single scene? Robert Jordan. Yeah. Robert Jordan just panned to the fireplace a lot because his editor told him he was terrible at writing sex scenes.

[02:20:26] And his editor, by the way, is his wife. That's right. Yeah. And she saved us from a lot of, a lot of situations there. So thank you. Thank you, Harriet. Yeah. Uh, Charlie E was absolutely fucking delighted. Direct quote that Elaine and Avi are romantically involved. And then it's happened before either of them get involved with Rand. And, uh, you know, I, there's an interesting point here, you know, forget about authorial intent.

[02:20:55] Is this choice right for us now? And yes, it is. I think that's, that's a good point. Like, you know, watching foundation. I think that's a good comp here like foundation. Yeah. Obviously Isaac Asimov was not considering, uh, having queer relationships in that, but it made sense when they made the show now and it, and it works really well. Yeah. And there's, there's a, another section to finish us off. Um, yeah. I just wanted to say, well, first of all, I want to give credit to Fred who said for the,

[02:21:24] we were talking about the name, the couple's name for Elaine and Avienda. Fred suggested Ellie and that, which I think is lovely. And I know what to say. Yeah. Charlie E says, if you're affected by the issues in this program, call at queers of time dot B sky dot social. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry for, sorry for rushing through the stuff. I think, um, and this is for the audience. I think that we've just hashed this out now for about an hour. Yeah.

[02:21:54] So it's wrap up those thoughts. Mark, do you want to take the last one about there's actually two different predictions in here from Fred? All right. From Fred prediction, a bunch of Matt's Tarvalon luck scenes and tear roof hopping scenes. We'll get moved to Tanchico as well as some later elements from Ibu Dar. Both locations are wild, dangerous, and sometimes violent, but exotic and fun port cities in warm environments.

[02:22:21] Amathera can fill in for Thailand if the showrunners want to take some, but hopefully not all of the Ibu Dar plot line. Since Amathera has a whole arc in the books. But we're going to Tanchico without Jwila and Sandar. If they want the doorway Terangrial to still serve some purpose for Matt, they could easily have it be in the museum in the Panarch's Palace. Yeah. And this is what I'm holding my breath for is I have a feeling that we will, we were in Tanchico.

[02:22:49] We have to see the Panarch's Palace this season because I have a feeling they're not going to like, you know, the realities of filming a television show. They're going to do a location during one season and then that's the end for that location. Except for the White Tower or, you know. So I have, I'm holding my breath for the finale to be Panarch's Palace. Have that twisted doorframe in there and have Matt go through it.

[02:23:14] But man, I hope they combine some of this stuff like Ibu, the Ibu, is Ibu Dar the one where they're there for like three books looking for the Bowl of Wins? Yes. Like, yes, and that is absurd. Put it all, put it all in Tanchico. Let it be done. I don't think Jwila and Sandar is in this book. I don't, this series. Yeah, I don't think they'll do. I don't know that Tom is even in the series anymore. So we're certainly not getting Jwila and. Well, I'll say Tom, Tom's been in trailers. So we can say that. All right.

[02:23:41] But I think for the, they're not going to do the Bowl of Wins because they haven't been doing that. The weather's messed up. So they don't have to fix the weather. Hmm. Well, the weather doesn't get messed up that much until book like five. So they could still do that. Yeah. Or like Lord of Chaos maybe or something. Maybe they do it later. They're not going to spend three seasons. No. No. No. If they even do it, they're not. It's going to be like one episode and we're all going to be like, thank you. No offense.

[02:24:10] I think it would be fine to have that be a subplot though. Like in a season of them, like let's go do this thing with the Seafolk. Cool. I think that's good. Honestly, though, don't even have them look for it. The Seafolk already have it. Hey, can we go use the Bowl of Wins? Well, let's make a deal. Right. Like I think that would be a good way to do it. Yeah. I agree. I agree. All right. Should we continue on? Mm-hmm. I don't know where the showrunners are going with Moraine's arc now. I have suspicions, but for book readers, we already know they were likely going to go with

[02:24:38] a different arc, at least where some details were concerned. I like that. Just like I loved in season one that some of the prophecy and foreshadowing moments were similar to but different from the books. So we didn't necessarily know all the answers going in. It felt nice, like rereading the books with some memory blocks. Hmm. Yeah. I mean, that is the question. Is she going to disappear through a door herself? She's so dead. You think she's dead, dad? Well, no. I think she's going to disappear.

[02:25:07] Because I do think I did get that production spoiler of her selling her home in the Czech Republic. Oh, boy. But I do think that means she's out of the show for a while. How often does a character leave a show and then come back, though? The Hound. The Hound. That's a solid one. How long was he gone? Like three or four seasons. Really? That long? Yeah, it was a long time.

[02:25:37] Because she'll be gone for three or four seasons. But I mean, I think that that's okay. Even from the non-reader perspective, nobody's going to forget Moraine's. Moraine. I'm more being like, are you going to lose her? Is she going to be off doing something else? She sold her house in the Czech Republic. She's number one on the call sheet. And obviously that's going to change if she's not going to be back for season four. But she's not going to. Like, this is a huge project. She's invested a big chunk of her life in.

[02:26:07] This is going to be a top priority for when she is meant to be brought back. She just did an interview with David Tennant, you know, on his podcast. I've been meaning to listen to it. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Oh, cool. He has a podcast called David Tennant Does a Podcast With and he just interviewed her. Oh, cool. Do you think there's a chance she goes through the doorway and we spend the next four seasons with her experiencing that world? Like snippets? That's how we experience. Yeah.

[02:26:36] Like we see her every few episodes doing in the tower or whatever stuff happening. Because I kind of like it more as just like a question mark until we get it later. Like, I don't want a situation where it feels like they have to spin the wheels of Mooraine's character just to keep her in the show. And speaking of wasting our time, John. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, if she's in the, if she is presumed dead, I want her presumed dead. Mm-hmm. Right.

[02:27:05] And I think for practical reasons, that is what they would do. And I think the whole thing about her selling her house and stuff is a signal of that as well. But yeah. Yeah. I, I, I hope that they do it right. You know, it's, and look, I have from the beginning been a critic of like, because they have Rosamund Pike, they're like way more focusing on Mooraine than maybe is appropriate. Like, I do think they have wasted our time with some things of like the beginning of last

[02:27:34] season was like, oh my God, how many times are we going to have a Mooraine land wine fest? Um, and you know, you can even see it in the post art, right? Like they're often putting her in front and I'm like, it's not Mooraine's story. She's the Gandalf, you know, it wasn't Gandalf story in the Lord of the Rings. It's not Mooraine's story here. It's the Emon Fields five and plus Elaine. Hmm. And Avienda. But even Avienda is kind of a side character most of the time. Yeah, you're not wrong. She's not. Yeah.

[02:28:02] Um, but I, yeah, I think, I do think that they're going to go through with it. And also they have been putting like, there are some, an increasing number of, of big names who have been joining the cast. Like, you know, we have now even like Olivia Williams and Chorag Dashloo and it's just, yeah, they, um, they no longer need Rosamund Pike's face to carry the IP. And I think that's what it was at the beginning. They're like, look, we have a famous person in this show. Watch, you know?

[02:28:32] I've never felt like, oh, Rosamund Pike's in it. I'm going to watch it now. You know? Who, find me the person. You're not a Rosamund Pike fan. Find me the person that was like, well, Rosamund Pike's in it. I have to go see it now. I like her. That's fine. I liked her before this too. I mean. I'm super glad for you. I don't know that I've seen much with her, honestly. I don't. Well, I mean, I guess the biggest thing everyone knew before this is Gone Girl. Yeah. I haven't seen that.

[02:29:02] Oh, it's a good movie. You should want to. No, I haven't seen it either. Hmm. I know we're done with the feedback. Can I ask a real quick, big picture, Wheel of Time question? Sure. The wheel spins. We have seven ages. Uh-huh. Right. First age might be our world or whatever. The dark one's prison is closed for the entirety of the first two ages until the very end. And then the dark one's prison is opened. And then third age happens.

[02:29:32] And then the dark one, what happens at the end of the third age? Presumably he is cut off again for ages four, five, six, and seven. My question is, when the cycle restarts, that means the prison is reopened in the same moment? Like, is this a situation where, like, does the dark one, because they, like, Ishamiel says these things, like, we've been having these struggles for all time and stuff. Uh-huh. But am I wrong, or does this actually not happen that often? Because, like, doesn't Rand close it and then we're kind of good?

[02:30:01] Like, what actually is happening over and over again? Because it seems to me like the dark one, only this one turning of the wheel was freed. Am I misunderstanding something? There is going to be another cycle where people forget how bad it was and they forget about the dark one and then they will drill again. Rand even says that in veins of gold, basically. Or, and maybe it's not veins of gold, but maybe it's in the last battle when he's, like, doing battle and, like, deciding what to do.

[02:30:25] So it's that, that's nothing, that's my question, is nothing in this telling, this spinning, is unique, actually. Well. And granted, I haven't read this in probably almost a decade, but I kind of almost remembered that there was something about this time, that either the beginning or the ending of this interaction, whether it was Boar or whether it was Rand finishing it, that it actually was going to be a unique, or is this just going to happen forever and it's totally...

[02:30:54] I mean, I think that they are all slightly different. It's not exactly the same thing every time. But my question is, so what if Rand were to choose the dark one's side? If he, and then he, what would happen then? It's like, so does the wheel keep turning only because they need the Rand of the story, the dragon reborn, the whatever, to always choose a side of the light?

[02:31:23] What if the dragon chose the dark one's side? Would that destroy everything? Would that break the repetitive pattern? What would happen then? Well, I think the point is that the dragon reborn has never chosen to eliminate all of existence, but the dragon reborn could choose kill the dark one and Rand almost does.

[02:31:49] And so that's why I think the pattern was preparing Pat and Fane to be the new dark one to balance things out. Oh, you think? Okay. Yeah, that's why he dies. Right after Rand decides, I'm not going to kill the dark one, Pat and Fane dies because the pattern doesn't need him anymore. Interesting. Yeah, I think that was his purpose. And I don't think it was communicated well, but I think that was his purpose. I've seen that theory online. I don't think it's my original one, but it's interesting.

[02:32:14] I just wanted to say, like, I think the major outlines of this keep repeating, but maybe there isn't an imperfect seal that Luz Theron did every single time, right? Like, maybe there's just this cycle of, like, you know, it's the major outline of, like, we dig too deep. We fix the problem. Maybe it takes one age. Maybe it takes two. And then eventually there's another golden age and we get more hubristic. Is that a word? We get more hubris. It's late.

[02:32:44] And then we drill again and then we keep doing this. Yeah. We don't know what happens in some of the ages either. I mean, and I also think in the ages, each age must end with some sort of apocalyptic event. So we're in the spoiler section. We can say age one, the first age is our age and that it is supposed to have to end with a nuclear war between America and Russia.

[02:33:11] And so that is not something where, like, the dark one is directly bawling at us out of a hole in the sky. This is just a question of, like, what we are questioning about in the age of legends. Like, even when the dark one is locked outside the pattern, is he still influencing us? And, you know. Well, he's responsible for free will, right? Isn't that what it is? Free will is given to us by. That's his argument.

[02:33:38] Well, it's the existence of the dark one alongside the light that gives us the free will. If it was only the dark one, there would also be no free will. Because there is a world without the light that the dark one shows ran where nobody has a choice. They just all are evil. Right. Yeah, but I just think that the dark one is always playing a role, even if not, like, directly, like, oh, here's your rabbit hole into the pattern. Right.

[02:34:06] If you just reread Ren's parts of The Last Battle, I feel like that will really refresh your memory on all this. Just read some capitalized text. Right. That's true. Just scan for capital letters and read that stuff. I would again lose there and... All right. All right. This has been fun, folks. Yeah. Well, thank you for the very lively debate and thank you to those who stuck around until the end. Keep your smut off my screen.

[02:34:35] Lord Vader, Operation Andor is underway. Excellent. If we release three episodes per week, the Low Hounds will never be able to cover every episode. The Imperial forces will crush the Rebellion before it begins. Standby. We're picking up something on our scanners. Echo Squadron reporting in. Delta Squadron on your left. Tango Squadron on your six. With Imperial forces coming in fast, we're calling all Rebels to join the fight this season.

[02:35:03] Starting after the April 22nd premiere, you'll hear three full breakdowns for each week's episodes of Andor Season 2. Each podcast will be led by one of our squadron leaders, Alicia, David, and John. We'll be bringing in new and familiar voices to fill out the roster. Search for the Lorehounds on any podcast platform to join us in a galaxy far, far away. And don't forget to check out our season pass for even more content like our Holocron bonus pods. It's good news for anyone except Darth Vader.