EIII: ep 10 – The Acolyte S1-e6 – "Teach / Corrupt"

[00:00:00] Okay, David, this is where we're supposed to choose a side. Green or black? John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life! So, we're not fighting? I thought this is where HBO wanted us to pick sides and fight and stuff.

[00:00:24] Don't worry, I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod, but we seem to agree on one thing. We both really like this show. The politics, the drama, the lore! It was made for the Lorehounds.

[00:00:36] And since we just finished recapping Season 1, we couldn't be more ready to defend our black queen in the Dance of the Dragons.

[00:00:43] And with the season pass option and supercast, listeners can get early ad-free access to each weekly scene-by-scene deep dive, plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections. See you in the Lorehounds podcast feed each week for our Dragonfire Hot, but probably positive, takes.

[00:01:00] The Lorehounds house of the dragon coverage is also safe for team green consumption.

[00:01:03] Side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore, a heart and conflict with itself, and an inescapable urge to read the book Fire and Blood by George R. R. Martin. Dragon seeds may experience burning. Welcome to the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast.

[00:01:33] And the Lorehounds Star Wars podcast. I'm John. And I'm Alicia, and today we ask whether Sol and Kaimir teach or corrupt in the sixth episode of the Disney Plus Star Wars series, The Acolyte.

[00:01:45] Listeners, for this crossover podcast series, we'll be following the apparently controversial Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast spoiler rules. We'll talk some more about that in the feedback section, as well as the community's wildest and most popular theories and questions.

[00:02:02] But first, we'll look at each of the two sides of this episode, throwing out the most likely theories about that new planet, everything on it, and what is going on with Sol and Vernestra.

[00:02:12] We'll wrap it all up with a look at what's ahead on the Lorehounds Network this week. Check the link tree in the show notes for links to all the podcasts we host, plus our Discord where the Acolyte Theorycrafting is heating up.

[00:02:24] And for the record, this conversation was recorded on July 4th, 2024. America! Fuck yeah. You might have heard another laugh here. And yes, we have David back to share his hot takes. Hi, David. Thank you. Thank you for stopping by.

[00:02:43] John challenged me to come at him with all my strength, so I had to show up for a quick moment. You were chucking cereal at me, so I said, come fight me on the pod. That's right.

[00:02:53] John and I are more defensive of this show than David's more in cereal mode, I guess. Is that right? Well, and I think I was defending Athena Adjalea's spouse who had declared fan bankruptcy. And I was like, get that guy some cereal and have him enjoy.

[00:03:11] I'm assuming it's a guy. Apologies if my assumptions are correct. Pretty sure she said husband. Yeah, I think so. That's a gendered term there. It is. It is a very specific gender term.

[00:03:21] So my point was, get that person some cereal, sit down, pull up a chair, pull up a bowl and enjoy the show. Because I think the show is worth worthy and worthwhile for super fans and casual fans alike. And I think that was my point.

[00:03:40] And John took exception at the fact that I think I was characterizing it as a Saturday morning pajamas show. Yeah. So, I think that's a very good point.

[00:03:49] And I think it's a good point to a serious war show where we really get into the details of the Star Wars Extended Universe. I'm not saying that that kind of show can't be bad.

[00:04:00] I'm just saying I don't think your cereal will cure it if it is bad. I think cereal. But to me, a Saturday morning cereal show is a very specific type of show that is is an adventure of the week. Not everything needs to make sense.

[00:04:13] Not everything needs to be so serious. It's OK to just have your sugary cereal. I think that's a show that you know light hearted thing where where you just can overlook some holes. I don't think that that's a show.

[00:04:25] I think if you're not liking the show, the cereal is not going to help. That was my point. I was taking Dr. David's diagnosis and treatment plan was faulty.

[00:04:35] Well, I was taking it as that there is I think there is more depth to the show than and I think not everyone is connecting with the various layers that are making it so compelling for me. I think that's OK to each their own.

[00:04:48] It does seem like there are a lot of people who are because we've got a ton of feedback today. That's good. Well, so that means that and as we know, engagement equals enragement. Right. So if people are reacting, it doesn't have to be enraged.

[00:05:01] They're not reacting in angry ways. They're reacting in theory crafting ways which is fun. So it means some things. Yeah. It means that it's affecting people in some way. And people like if we're just like, oh, it's fine, then we don't respond.

[00:05:14] But if there's something we have to say, we get activated by something. I would say that I mean it's a valid point in terms of what is a Saturday morning serial show. And we started using that term.

[00:05:28] John, I think you sort of coined that whole thing, which is like, oh, let go, have fun and enjoy. And so I was thinking more about it in that level. I don't know the canon and the books and all of that stuff like you guys do.

[00:05:45] And I think there is a degree of the fandom, which is also in that position where it's like, oh, OK, this is there some cool action here. There's some interesting characters. They're doing some fun stuff with Star Wars. They're showing us a time period.

[00:05:59] I really like the fact that we're not on a kind of hero's journey quest to, you know, to find the MacGuffin that's going to overthrow the Empire story.

[00:06:09] But that we've got a mystery that's happening and we're doing this kind of fun storytelling way of looking at multiple perspectives and doing some flashback stuff. All of which I don't think we've really seen in our Star Wars. And so I'm appreciating it on that level.

[00:06:28] And what planet that is and what kind of metal that is. And is this the first time we've ever seen a Force Saber whip thing? You know, Sith, the history of the Sith. It's all blowing past me, but there is a logic and a consistency to it.

[00:06:45] So it doesn't feel like they're just making stuff up and throwing it on the screen. It feels grounded and it feels like it knows where I feel like as I'm watching it that the headland knows what the hell she's talking about.

[00:06:58] So I can just relax and eat some cereal and enjoy it in not enough in a in a God, this is awful, but I can't stop watching. Like, no, this is actually really enjoyable.

[00:07:08] And for a non core, you know, non for a fan who's not steeped in the in the literature, as we could say, I'm not an academic of Star Wars. I don't know that I'm missing stuff. And that means something good.

[00:07:22] They're telling a story that is speaking to me and all of the lore details are blowing past me. But I'm not I don't feel like I'm missing anything. And I don't feel like I'm being, you know, railroaded into having to learn the lore.

[00:07:37] I can just go along for the ride on this. And I think that's great. And I'm really glad. And I also love to see all of the the Star Wars haters out there. Well, there's kind of what the origin of the ship. It's like, yo, that's fine.

[00:07:52] I will Lord drop on them. But Leslie Headland is and I love the fandom. I love that the fandom has the ability to stand on two feet and go, no, actually, you're wrong. Go kick rocks because it's so steeped in the lore and it's so well rooted.

[00:08:07] And I think for all of those reasons, I'm enjoying the show. It's it's not an end or of course not. It's it's in its lane. It's firmly in the rain. It's not supposed to be an end or exactly the point. Exactly. And it's great. And it's enjoyable.

[00:08:23] And for me, I could sit down Saturday morning and eat a bowl of cereal and not in the way of like, oh, I got to just like suffer through this. But I'm like, no, this is fun. This is like fun. Star Wars. I like this.

[00:08:34] Is it is it engaging with you on the level of, you know, the interpersonal conflicts and things like that? Is that drawing you in? Not so. No, it's not drawing me in.

[00:08:45] I think what's drawing me in is the mystery is drawing me in and how she's using the mystery to un the way that she's using visual storytelling to unpack the mystery or to, you know, to figure out. That's what's really and then Sol's performance. Lee Joon.

[00:09:04] What's his I don't have his name on the top of my head. What's the actor's name? Oh, Lee. She calls him JJ. Yeah, JJ. JJ. Lee Joon-Jae. Yeah. His performance is great. And you know, I love seeing a bunch of new actors that we haven't seen before.

[00:09:22] So the acting in the script writing now, I know John may disagree with me. I don't think that the script is all that I disagree with you. Yeah, I think this is this is the second best writing in Star Wars.

[00:09:38] And as far as dialogue goes, next to Nemex Manifesto and Andor. Right. I think that's the only dialogue in Star Wars that surpasses us. The conversations happening between Chimere and OSHA. I keep having to remind myself which one we're talking about. Which one is which?

[00:09:57] I mean, it's literally the same actor. It's not even twins. So yeah, right. And then the way that Sol is talking to me. I just think that these are the best conversations we've had. I see it as Andor if we're comparing to Tolkien.

[00:10:13] Andor is about like the men of Middle Earth and then the the acolyte is about the elves of Middle Earth. These like otherworldly beings that are Jedi and Sith. There are some some ethereal level above the other beings in this universe.

[00:10:31] And it's okay for those to have two totally different dialogues. Yeah, pretty much. I think every character in this is a force user. Right. Yeah. So David, we yeah. And by the way, full spoilers, obviously, for the episode we're talking about in every episode.

[00:10:48] Before David, we didn't get your hot takes on the last episode, which is the one everyone was talking about with the deaths and the lightsaber battles.

[00:10:56] And that shocked me in that it was first we got Jackie and then I were like I was like, wow, that was wild. And then was it Jackie first? And then then you're I mean, okay. So so the red shirts, the yeah, they went quickly.

[00:11:14] Yeah, they went quick. No problem. But then the way that she ended up with those two, that shocked me because clearly the fans are resonating with both of these characters. And she took not only one but two out. And that's something.

[00:11:30] And I think then when Vanessa has to show up later and and soul has to deal with the loss of his whole team, that is some bold storytelling for Star Wars. We don't get a lot of on screen deaths of major and minor characters.

[00:11:46] You know, red shirts aplenty fine. But in terms of people that we're really resonating with and we want to hold on to, that was shocking. And I think that was is really bold. And I appreciated it.

[00:11:59] And I also appreciate laughing getting the visual laughing because both of their death scenes. OK, yeah, you know, death, whatever. But they were so shocking and she knew exactly what she was doing.

[00:12:12] And not only did she give Jackie this like kind of cool death in terms of the three puncture wounds of the thing, but then the way that you heard went down was just really, you know, he got. Yeah, it was wild.

[00:12:29] And for her to do that, I think is bold. And I applaud her doing that. And it ramps up some emotional stakes because, you know, beloved characters are down and out gone. Right. That's that's something we saw this week. They are dead. Yeah, there's no maybe.

[00:12:48] Nope. They are dead. And and that we see the whips or the scar and the whip in one episode. I don't think that that's a mistake at all. I think that's a very intentional. We're going to talk about that for sure. Yeah, for sure.

[00:13:06] And boy, this is a thirsty, thirsty season of television. I was like, I mean, people said that it was like going to be the gayest show. But then it's actually it's it's really the straight gaze or gay male gaze.

[00:13:21] But it's you know, it's centering, it's sexifying, especially a male figure, which is somewhat unusual. Yeah, I was thinking about maybe getting a red lightsaber. So I saw your comment and I was like, oh yeah, that's a good way to say it.

[00:13:36] I feel like Michael Scott's going to run in and go, I'm coming out hetero. So, yeah, I'm really pleased with with what's happening. And I love that the fan reaction. I love the story. We still have to learn more about what's the book he's name again.

[00:13:55] I apologize. It's like Kelnock. You can hear him in that song that I wrote. Yeah, that's right. So we still have to I know we've got some Kelnock stuff coming up. I hope we get back to the coven and the witches at some point.

[00:14:09] We've got Saul being very sinister and ominous by taking Osha. Is it Osha on the ship or is it May? May is with Saul right now. Yeah, so May may on the strap, you know, strapped in on the bed and all this kind of stuff.

[00:14:27] So I think she's building tension really nicely. And I think the last episode we had a lot of good moving around like we moved the plot forward.

[00:14:38] We opened up with some new stuff, gave us some new mystery and answered some questions and opened up a whole bunch more. So from a pacing standpoint and the plot delivery points, like I feel like we're moving along. At first episode I was like, oh, I don't know.

[00:14:56] And this is cooking. I think she's cooking and I'm really I'm glad to see it. And I'm glad that the Star Wars fandom has something to rally around on a cause. Like this is a good show. It's lore consistent and we're having fun.

[00:15:11] So all y'all can, you know. No, there's a lot of fun conversation going on online with the memes and the theory crafting. And yeah, yeah. Hot lore summer. Right. It's happening. Yeah. Full on hot lore summer. What did you think of this episode?

[00:15:27] I you know, at times I was like, all right, get to the point. I do think that there were certain points like we need three times for Saul to be interrupted when he's about to tell May.

[00:15:38] That was a little annoying to me. Yeah, but really that was that was a minor quibble because most of it was really great. One thing that I thought was really interesting is that people before have said.

[00:15:50] That the you know, the dark side definitely lends itself to like desire, right? We're told that like attachments, it lends itself to seduction of the dark side. Yeah, right. Right. Oh, that's really good. I like that. Well, that's what Leslie Hedlund cited that word is especially.

[00:16:09] Yeah, but no one ever talks about it because it's usually geared towards family friendly movies. And here we have something where you can explore that a little bit. And or went into that a little bit.

[00:16:19] But again, and or is about the mortals of this world, not about the otherworldly force users. I like that. And this is the first time that we actually get a Sith going.

[00:16:29] He lists desire as he looks her in the eye and pops like a grape in his mouth or something like, come on. Oh, I did my second watch with with the audio description on. And like it is narrated like a romance novel during those scenes.

[00:16:44] Like his his top muscle, the scar traces a line across his. I saw I think a tweet. Oh, who's that big YouTube channel that does a lot of the breakdowns? Which one? New Rockstars? Yeah, New Rockstars. It was Eric Voss on New Rockstars.

[00:17:01] And I saw a tweet just scroll by saying, no, you have to watch it with the audio description. It was like, watch do this. And so I was like, oh, and now obviously I did. But now that you say that, that's great.

[00:17:13] I love it. I love it. Pretty funny. Yeah. I know it was. I mean, I am impressed with like I've done audio description like when I've watched stuff with Bob. And I am really impressed with how well they translate the visual into audio.

[00:17:28] You know, the words that they choose and the pacing and the intonation. That's a lot of work. It's a whole separate mini production to be able to cue that stuff in correctly. To write it? Exactly. You have to be a really good writer.

[00:17:42] You have to do it around the dialogue and other sounds you need to hear. Yeah. No, that's really good work. Yeah. So yeah, I love this episode. This was maybe my third favorite of the season so far. As far as a necessary, you know, last episode went at 11.

[00:17:59] So this is a necessary like, you know, downcycling, regrouping, re-aligning now that we've done the sister swap. Yeah, I had a really good time with it and there's a lot of very interesting lore teases.

[00:18:14] And also just the relationships between the characters are in my case that that's really sucking me in. That's maybe even more than the mystery elements.

[00:18:24] What's getting me into this show are the characters and their relationships with each other and the mysteries around that and all that and where how might they develop? Cool. So I saw, I read a really great interview this week with Inverse. I shared that on the Discord.

[00:18:42] It was with Leslie Headland. And so I just wanted to share a few fun tidbits that I learned from that. And the first one is on the, you know, on the subject of the sexy Sith, many Jacinto first said no to the bare arms.

[00:18:55] Like he's normally, Leslie Headland's like I was surprised because he normally is like very easy going about that stuff. But at first he pushed back. He didn't want to do it. But then yeah, now here we are. So showing off his bare arms, you mean?

[00:19:10] The sleeveless robes, yeah. No, no. I think if he had been robed, I think that whole question of being enticed, being seduced, being drawn by the dark side and what it has to offer, I think that would have been diminished.

[00:19:26] And I think by incorporating the physical sexiness, I think it elevates that whole conversation. Right. I mean, she knew exactly what the effect was going to be. I mean, she's, I don't know if she's attracted to men. I'm not going to speculate on that.

[00:19:42] She's married to a woman. She's married to Rebecca Henderson, who plays for Nestra.

[00:19:46] But she knew she was like, yeah, this is going to make people go crazy because she was saying she basically is looking at all of us in the eye and saying y'all are villain fuckers and you know it. And I'm going to show you. What a statement.

[00:20:03] Yeah, Alicia, it's 9 in the morning where I don't know if I can deal with that yet. She's calling us out like that. Hey, I watch these episodes at 9 in the morning because they release in the middle of the night for me. Right.

[00:20:18] She also said in the interview that the stranger was originally going to be more in the background the first season and to tee up season two.

[00:20:26] But after she saw Manny Jacinto screen test, she's like, oh no, no, people are going to be upset if I don't give more of him in the first season. So she rewrote. She said she rewrote one later episode, especially maybe it was this one.

[00:20:41] I just want to point out they keep saying Sith. So I still think she also says there's a reason why we hear Kylo Ren's theme, but she does also keep saying the word Sith.

[00:20:50] And she said about Jackie's death that she said the reveal was not that it was Chimere. The reveal was just that like it reveals that a dead body falls and you see this guy. The reveal is your favorites are going down. Welcome to your new favorite. Nice, nice.

[00:21:08] I like that. He's sweeping the table and yeah, we want favorites. We want to root for people really love Jackie. Right. That was a huge right. And then we love the one who killed her even more. Even more.

[00:21:20] And so that setting up that conflict of like, oh, you just made me hate the, you know, made me fall in love with the person I want to hate. Yeah, like with Gawain and Crispy Cole, it's like, OK, you made me like Crispin Cole for one second.

[00:21:37] Or Otto. You know, there's scenes where you're like, I don't know. I still don't like Otto. This is how the dragon talks, by the way. It's hot Laura Summer. It's hot Laura Summer. Our shows.

[00:21:49] Yeah, and so I'll put a link to this article in the show notes for anyone who wants to read it for themselves.

[00:21:54] There's also a bit about the cortosis, which again, you know, she emphasizes just she works with Pablo Hidalgo, who anyone who doesn't know he's he's one of the most important people in modern Star Wars because he's kind of like the he's like the lore master basically.

[00:22:08] The lore keeper, I should say. And so she worked with him to make sure it was all accurate. So that's why we see it so brittle, brittle that Jackie could elbow it and break it that way because it has these incredible properties.

[00:22:20] But it shouldn't be this like super metal that's, you know, undoes everything else. And also the fact that it's really rare. Right. And did we see a vein of it on the planet? OK, we did.

[00:22:35] So now we know where he got it and probably why he's hanging out there. Exactly why he's there. That made a lot of sense.

[00:22:41] And then obviously, I think the next big round of conversation is is this what's the planet that Luke was on in the in the sequels? Oh, but Leslie had that we're going to talk about that. Yeah, we're going to talk about it.

[00:22:56] But Leslie Hedlund came out and said it's not the planet. OK, I'm glad it's not. I think that that's too member very well. I mean, you're trying to tie together. It would make a lot of sense if it were.

[00:23:09] I actually I was slightly disappointed when I found out it wasn't. But I think so. I thought that they were going to combine after with this planet from legends.

[00:23:18] And now I think that it's just the planet from legends, which is like an ocean planet where they mine cortosis. And it's yeah, it was it was an important place in the story of Sith Lords, Darth Tenebrous and Plagueis. So it's called Valdemic.

[00:23:38] Every time you say to I want to think to but that's yeah, I just learned what that is. I didn't even know. Did you see the original video? It's well somebody showed me because I was like, I don't know.

[00:23:52] You got to give him some of that hot to do that. All right. Back to you. Back to Star Wars.

[00:24:01] Speaking of I think that every time we have a story set on one of the same five planets, the universe feels smaller and show is one of the first Jedi die. Jedi does not get it.

[00:24:17] Look, I think that this show is a really nice breath of fresh air because it makes the universe feel bigger, not smaller. I think especially if we have time here become not a Sith Lord, but instead a Sith fan.

[00:24:35] I think that would be a really cool way to expand the universe. Like, of course, somebody would learn about the Sith, especially if they were part of the Jedi. Like that's in the archives, right? Like that knowledge is in the archives.

[00:24:46] I of course, they would learn about it. Somebody is bound to like that idea. Right. And and that's just more interesting to me. It feels much more real realistic. Right. I mean, I think that it's a combination of things.

[00:24:58] I think we'll get into when we get into the breakdown. But I think that maybe he was a Sith apprentice and is no longer or there's a few ways that this could go. Yeah. Well, and I think it goes into Venestra.

[00:25:15] And why did you know clearly there's a relationship there? Was she his was he her Padawan? But why do you say clearly because of the scar? Yeah. And just in terms of mystery show plot set up stuff there, she's she's not a minor character in the sense of.

[00:25:39] She's some sort of faceless bureaucrat that sort of whatever she's now showing up in the plot straight forward. Like I got to go for you. I have to I have to go not another rescue team, but I have to go. Well, she feels bad.

[00:25:52] She sent Sol and the crew there to get killed. Yeah. Right. And now she's wrecking. And I think she's starting to see the pattern of Kymere's movements and saying, I recognize, I feel the some familiarities here.

[00:26:06] And so, yeah, I think the whip and scar are our first straight up clues to point us in that direction. But then just looking at the characters on the board, how can we put pieces together to make an interesting mystery?

[00:26:21] And so it just feels like, oh, yeah, these two are potentially there. She's got to be powerful Jedi. Right. I believe she's got a lot of she's an extremely powerful. She's one of the most powerful Jedi that has ever lived.

[00:26:34] And Kymere has power because when he flicked his fingers and knocked them all on their asses, that was some power. Right. And so, yeah, there's just a lot of clues there that make me feel like there's a connection. And did she screw up in some way?

[00:26:51] And or what happened? So that's I'm engaged because I want to know why these two come come apart. What what's dark in Venestra? Yeah, that allowed Kymere to, you know, taste the, you know, taste that and to want to have more of it.

[00:27:08] Or what did she do or stop him from doing or whatever? There's there's something there. And I think I think there's a darkness in Venestra that has to be part of the cause of Kymere's path. Yeah.

[00:27:21] So I I definitely agree with everyone that, of course, the scar in Kymere's back looks like it could be a whip scar. Although it forks. So it would be two whips or alternate theory. Could it be a lightning scar? Hmm. Oh, you mean crazy from the lightning?

[00:27:40] I mean, look like force lightning like a Sith, a Sith attacked him because maybe he's a ghost. So he says he used to be a Jedi. So, OK, we'll take that at face value. A long, long time ago, whatever that means, because he looks like 30.

[00:27:52] But well, he could be using his force powers to keep himself de-aged. Is that a thing? I mean, he would be the opposite with the dark side, though. Like usually the dark side. It corrupts the way you look. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:05] So maybe he's but maybe he's different in some ways. Yeah. Or maybe. Yeah. I don't know. I have like mind transfer theories brewing in my head or something that he's cloaking his appearance. Yeah. The dark side of the force is a path to many physiques.

[00:28:21] So he's considered to be unnatural. Unnatural. Yeah. So I don't know. He was definitely let's say he was definitely a Jedi. If he says so, I have no reason not to believe him on that.

[00:28:31] But maybe he was already also a Sith and left or was rejected or thrown away, as he said in his own words. And now he's looking to start a new type of order, cue Kylo Ren theme song.

[00:28:46] Which I think plays into some of the themes that we're dealing with in terms of the witches and the Jedi coming in and May and Osha.

[00:28:57] And oh, yeah, we're going to make you a Jedi and you're going to come in and it's like, oh, no, you washed out by. Mm hmm. Right. And it's like now he's like, OK, but why?

[00:29:07] And then she's dealing with the whole things like, well, why aren't you a Jedi? Why didn't you complete your training? Well, I failed. Did you fail or did the Jedi fail? You know, that's I think there's something really interesting there as well. Yeah. All right.

[00:29:21] Well, should we get into discussing? I know, David, I think you I'm going to head out. Yeah. OK. I got to go blow some digits off my hands and celebrate our independence from the British. You make sure you keep that emergency room on speed dial.

[00:29:38] But thanks for for letting me stop on John. John threw down the gauntlet, so I had to come at him. So thank you for stopping by and sharing your thoughts. It's good. I'm glad this show is firing on multiple cylinders and I'm glad for our community.

[00:29:53] I'm glad for the fandom. And so, yeah, 100 percent. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Talk to you guys later. All right. Yeah. OK, so John and I go forward with episode seven of the show. We start with episode six, teach slash corrupt. So we've got that slashy episode thing again.

[00:30:13] Yeah, I'm I'm I kind of like it. Like it is a unique thing for the show. Yeah, no, I like it. But then, you know, of course, then I ask, like, what does it mean that some have the slash titles

[00:30:23] and some have the solo titles that obviously link up? So we're still waiting. I still think next week we're going to get free will or choice, as you said. Yeah.

[00:30:31] But Star Wars explained, I think it was pointed out that the titles are one word when the sisters are together in the same place. So maybe that's it. That seems plausible. I like that. So the writers credited for this episode are Leslie Headland and Jocelyn Beal and Beal.

[00:30:48] Leslie Headland, of course, is the showrunner and Beal is a playwright turned TV writer and producer who worked on Russian Doll, which Headland did, and she's got to have it at much of other stuff.

[00:30:57] And the director this time is Hanel Culpepper, who's best known for her episodes of 90210, Parenthood, Criminal Minds, Revenge, Grimm and lots of Star Trek stuff like Discovery and Picard. Nice. Yeah. So for this one, the action is basically split between two different locations or two sets of characters.

[00:31:16] So let's just focus on one set at a time and then do a little Vernestra interlude. OK, sounds good. Sounds good. So we've got part one is May and Sol and then Basil and Pip were also there.

[00:31:28] And this is do you think this is the teach side of things or do you think they're trying to suggest this could also be the corrupt side of things? I don't think she's teaching it. I don't think he's teaching anything right now.

[00:31:38] So I think perhaps corrupt, but it's not Sol corrupting. I think it's Osha trying to corrupt the ship. Or May trying to corrupt a fake Osha. Fosha. Right. She's she's like, I don't know how to do this. Let me reset. She basically killed Osha's droid.

[00:31:55] Yeah, did she did May kill Pip? Because if so, May killed Pip. That's the worst thing I've ever seen. Yeah, she just killed her. Oh, what if I factory reset you? And it was so casual too. Uh huh. Yeah.

[00:32:07] I think she didn't realize until later when Sol's like, you know, Osha always loved that droid and she's a droid and she's like, oh, and he's not even on the right body. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if that'll be like the last straw because think about it this way.

[00:32:20] Osha. Yeah, we've heard multiple times, including from Sol this episode that Osha is really attached to that droid. Mm hmm. If that's Osha's last attachment. Right. She's going to lose now. Is that grief going to fuel her fall to the dark side? Yeah.

[00:32:37] I do want to just point out there is something that happens later in the timeline where a favorite protocol droid who we all know and love. He gets reset because they want him to be able to access the Sith language, which is forbidden otherwise.

[00:32:52] And his eyes turn red. Is that why? Yeah. Oh. His eyes turn red like we see pips turn red in this and I mean, sorry, minor spoiler, but like that turns out okay. So there's hope. Okay. Okay.

[00:33:08] So I wonder if it's like, I'll put you into factory mode, but there is still like your memory bank somewhere. Yeah. So right now, maybe there's a backup in his body or something. I hope. I don't know. She looks pretty emotional when she lost the head.

[00:33:21] So I don't know. Yeah. We'll see. But this is definitely the thing that May has done that I'm most mad about. Yeah. It was pretty cruel. And for what? Yeah, exactly.

[00:33:33] So for this one, I just took like brief synopsis from Star Wars.com, the official synopsis, and then we'll get more deeper into like the lore and key lines and things like that. So Star Wars.com says about this part, nothing is as it seems.

[00:33:49] Jedi Master Soul plots a course for Coruscant after making a harrowing escape from the tragedy on Kofar. But there's an impersonator aboard the pollen. May disguised as Osha.

[00:34:00] Just as they're about to jump to light speed, the ship's power fails, sending quote unquote Osha off to put her non-existent mech neck skills to good use.

[00:34:09] After evading Pip and Fuzzle who sniff out the ruse, May plans to beat Soul to his confession trying to long range comms to inform Coruscant about the truth of what happened on Brandoc. But the Jedi Master stuns her, promising to finally tell her his Brandoc story next week.

[00:34:28] So John, I have to ask how are your suspicions after this episode? Again, I don't think he directly did anything wrong, but I think he participated in the cover up. He was an accessory after the fact.

[00:34:40] He says time for me to face the High Council to tell them everything. So he feels like he has something to tell. But this is also and like I feel dumb saying this after we were like, oh, they're putting too hard at Chimera.

[00:34:52] He can't be the Sith Lord, which I still think he's not the Lord Lord. But yeah, it feels like with soul like he's feeling guilty and they're trying to make us wonder if he's guilty. But maybe this is a misdirect.

[00:35:07] And he is like he's a little bit guilty, but not like, you know, right. Right. I think what I think part of it is he he felt he probably felt like it wasn't his story to tell.

[00:35:18] Right. Because this was really the story of the other Jedi who did the wrongs. Right. I don't know. Right. I don't know. And we know that this Jedi Council is about to face an audit and they hate transparency.

[00:35:34] So I think that if we're going to if we're going to play that game, I think perhaps they knew about some kind of threat like Chimera, maybe not Chimera himself, but like Chimera that was on Brandoc.

[00:35:47] And they hit it because they knew that nobody wanted to hear about it. No one actually addressed it. Well, I think the senators and we'll talk about that in a second.

[00:35:55] But the senators that they're talking about with this Jedi audit, I feel like this is setting up leading into the separatists that appear in the next era. OK, all right. I'm into that. I like. So we get it. By the way, Saul, he calls out emergency code zero.

[00:36:15] And this is a critical distress signal for the Jedi. So this is like emergency code zero is just like this is the ultimate Max emergency call S.O.S. Oh, wow. Makes sense, though. Yeah.

[00:36:31] So do you think it like the whole thing was so he turns off his tracker and leaves?

[00:36:38] I think he heard like they were having disrupted communications back and forth, but I feel like he heard her say stay there and then turned off his track tracker and left immediately. Did you get that sense to and why do you think?

[00:36:52] I think he maybe he didn't know it was May at first and then he later decided, well, now that I know it's May, I'm going to have I'm going to have an audience with her before they get here because we see that right after he goes away.

[00:37:09] The Jedi got there. You know, the hyperspace is fine. You know what I thought was interesting was Vernestra is so nervous about flying into hyperspace. Is that because she was so involved with the Night Hill stuff?

[00:37:20] No, it's because it's because she when she was younger, at least when she was in hyperspace, she would sometimes get these visions and she didn't enjoy the experience of it. Interesting. Yeah. And that was a fun little Easter egg for book readers.

[00:37:37] OK. Yeah, I wonder if I think I still think that Saul knew it was May the whole time, but he only he only knocked her out when she was like going to make the call and he was like, no, no, no.

[00:37:49] OK. But I think he like obviously he called her out with PIP the Droid. But I think even when he sent her to fix the ship, he knew like this is not the Mech-Neck sister. Right. That's my interpretation. Right. Yeah, maybe that was a test.

[00:38:06] Yeah, that's kind of what it felt like. Like he could fix the ship himself, but he's like, OK, let me see if that's actually her first. Right. Do you think does Saul even know that Basil's on the ship?

[00:38:19] Because it seems like Basil is always flitting around in the background and not like interacting with him. Yeah, it could be. Could be. I don't know.

[00:38:26] Do you think that Basil caused the power outage to lure May so he could try to attack her, which was adorable and I could see it. Basil is smarter than we want to think. Right.

[00:38:40] Yeah, I love that like he and PIP were kind of squabbling like kids the first time they met and now they seem to have done a team up. Right. That's pretty funny.

[00:38:51] OK, so meanwhile, while this is going on, we've also got Vernestra who's she goes back to Kofar with a mission team and makes a startling discovery, which is basically a bunch of dead bodies. So we talked about whether the light whip might be connected to the scars.

[00:39:12] We definitely see when she pulls it out, like she attacks an umber moth that was like just entering the clearing behind her. So the force is still strong with this one. Yeah, she's a sense that she didn't even look at it basically.

[00:39:25] What did you think of the light whip? I thought it was very cool. I want to see more of it. I didn't see enough. I didn't get enough. Yeah, yeah, it was very cool to see it on in live action.

[00:39:36] It is from obviously she does. She designs this when she's younger in the books. We've talked a lot about it in previous episodes. I won't go too much into it, but like she can switch it.

[00:39:46] So it's either a steady state like a regular lightsaber or this flexible whip type thing. And yeah, the light whips. This is not invented for the High Republic. It comes from legends, although there are in the High Republic novels, there's mentions of Nightsisters having light whips.

[00:40:03] So I want to see that now. But I do. It is interesting. It's purple. So that makes one of two people we know with a purple lightsaber her and Mace Windu. Oh, that's a good point.

[00:40:15] And, you know, of course we have that debate of like, is the legend saying that it's like partially light and dark? Is that still something that's canon? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. We see her doing something else that's very familiar from from the Jedi games.

[00:40:34] She's she's got psychometry skills, it seems, where she walks around and can like sense the force echoes of events that happened in the places. Right. That could be flashbacks. Yeah, definitely. I mean, that's that's straight up a whole mechanic in the game.

[00:40:49] Yeah, exactly. And yeah, there's a fun, well, fun Easter egg. I don't know if fun's a word. There's an Easter egg that I only found out in the Star Wars data bank.

[00:41:00] But her ship that she travels there on, it's called Cantaras, which Emry Cantaras is the name of her Padawan in the High Republic books. So those are those particular books are set 100 years before this.

[00:41:13] So regardless of what happens with Cantaras in those books, that character would he was human. So that character would probably be dead by now. But just very interesting. A little Easter egg there for that or something more. I don't know. We'll hear theories from people and the feedback.

[00:41:32] What did you think of? I don't know if it's her new Padawan or he just works for her. But Mog Adana, what do you think of the new not your. The new the new not your you said, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, the guy serving.

[00:41:48] Oh, I'm really suspicious, like really, really, really suspicious. I think the way that he's like, oh, you're coming with us. So I don't know if you should come with us.

[00:41:57] I was a little suspicious of that. I'm more suspicious of him than I am of Nestor, to be honest with you. Yeah. Yeah, I just he rubs me the wrong way.

[00:42:06] But like in the way that your dip, it makes me be like, oh, you're the wish your your, you know, the yard we have at home. You're not the good yard. It makes me want your back. I bet it's like that same sort of well, actually personality.

[00:42:23] Well, poor, poor your he's gone. He's confirmed dead. He's confirmed. He was looking rather pale. Yep. A funny Easter egg about Magadana is that his his first name is named after the script supervisor and his last name is named after the director of episodes three and seven.

[00:42:43] Yeah, that's fun. You know who else has a fun name? So we saw her on her little Skype call with yeah, is a species called an abednedo, which we'll talk about in a second.

[00:42:56] This senator is called I said it what you want, or as it's more properly pronounced. What you want to what you want. It is no it is actually named after that lyric. He's actually named after that lyric. Every abednedo is named after a Beastie Boys lyric.

[00:43:20] So we've got the first one was in The Force Awakens. Hello, Asti named after Hello Nasty. We've got some other ones that are and this is all like the Pablo Hidalgo.

[00:43:33] He's the one he's like, OK, you so the first one was because JJ Abrams who was directing The Force Awakens loves the Beastie Boys. And so Pablo Hidalgo like was like, let's take this joke and run with it.

[00:43:46] And so he named all the rest of them after that. So anyway, that's a fun one. Yeah, the abednedos. So they like they look like mammalian like catfish people because they've got these like flat faces and mouth tendrils.

[00:44:00] And they were originally under dwellers who evolved to live on the surface. And they are actually like really intelligent. They are curious linguists. They live in chaotic cities. So they actually seem like cool people to hang out with.

[00:44:17] They're just like these species that shows up in the background a lot of the time. Yeah, there was one in Young Jedi Adventures, a pirate with a redemption arc and anyone who's seen the show who asks which pirate with a redemption arc is forgiven.

[00:44:32] So the name, do you know the name Abednedo like from biblical references? I don't remember it at all.

[00:44:42] So Abednego is apparently like at one point in the Bible, Nebuchadnezzar the second, he the king of Babylon, he threw three men into a fiery furnace, three Jewish men who for refusing to bow to the king's image.

[00:44:59] And they were saved and the king saw four men dancing in the flames with the fourth being the son of God. So that's where the name of the race comes from because that name is name dropped in a Beastie Boys song. Huh? Yeah, who knew? Yeah.

[00:45:16] There's also just there's another like actual fishy species seen in the background a lot in this show called Selkath. There's one particular character keeps showing up. So just that is a completely different species. The Abednedo are mammalian, the Selkath are fish.

[00:45:34] So that's our entry into the Star Wars data bank for today. But I do wonder this whole like Senator Ray in court, could that be a seed for next season?

[00:45:45] Are we because she made a point of saying the name several times and that he's never been a friend to the Jedi. So I'm wondering if that's setting up a season two story. Yeah, I don't know.

[00:45:55] I think as we get closer to the end of season one, I'm like what questions are we leaving open? Because I think it might be a lot. Hmm. I feel like we're nearly to the end of the questions, but well, I guess I guess it depends.

[00:46:09] Yeah, because every question you answer, you open up more like the more we learn about Chimera, the more I want to know about Chimera. Right. Exactly. And I don't think we're going to get all the answers on him this season.

[00:46:19] I don't think that was because he wasn't even supposed to be this big a part of the season. Right. So, by the way, the part of space that they're talking about with where the senators are like banding together to say we need to look into the Jedi.

[00:46:33] That's called the expansion region, and that's between the inner rim and mid room. And so this is a different region of space than we talked about at the beginning of the series.

[00:46:42] At the beginning of the series, there was Corpseck where the Pneumonians were suddenly wanting to have shields repaired where they never had shields before. These are two vastly different regions of space not really near each other. So very interesting.

[00:46:56] Makes me wonder if there's something wider going on that the Jedi are overlooking. Right. Hmm. I'm suspicious. Yeah, I'm very suspicious. Do you have the sense that Vernestra has an idea who's behind this whole thing? Yes. I think she suspects Chimera.

[00:47:15] I do think that it's very possible that that was an apprentice of hers. Mm hmm. She said something, something to tip the scales and that seems to be in reference to something only she knows in the audience does not. Right. Right.

[00:47:30] She didn't exactly defend Sol when Maul Guy asked about it, did she? No, she didn't. And I wonder if she's going to just I mean she was very quick to blame Osha right? Like she'd been looking for a fall guy for this the entire time.

[00:47:44] Yeah, I'm worried for Sol. I think she knows it's not Sol but I think she might set him up to take a fall. Right. She just I think I think less so than. Um, less so than the fact that she's a Sith Lord.

[00:48:01] I think that it's possible that she just wants everything to go away. You know? Mm hmm. I agree. I think that that's what it is too. And I know book readers are like oh but she was a hero.

[00:48:11] But yeah, I think you can also see you can see the roots in her younger story of how she would end up becoming so many people become what they want to avoid. You know they become their parents.

[00:48:25] She becomes her parents in a way but it takes her she's been alive for what like 150 years now or something or more than 100. Yeah, right. Okay well shall we take a quick break and then come back and get into the Osha and Chymeier side of things? Yeah definitely.

[00:48:42] All right. Okay so the other side of the episode Osha and Chymeier or Disney seems to really or sorry Lucasfilm seems to really want us to call Chymeier the stranger but nobody calls him that. Yeah, it's not the Rings of Power. Can we just be honest with ourselves?

[00:49:19] Let's let's enough of enough of these mysterious titles just name people names. Yeah well he says he doesn't have a name yet but he uses Chymeier like as an alias but I think it's because his name is going to turn out to be Plagueis or something.

[00:49:32] I don't know. His name is going to turn out to be like Bob but he's just like this is the lamest name. He's like my name is what was the one from Ahsoka Malik or Marik? Marok.

[00:49:43] Marok yeah no his name is gonna be like Paul, Bob, David, John you know something basic. He says he doesn't have he's if he's so old maybe he's lost his own name to himself in some way or he distanced himself from it or. Yeah. Who knows.

[00:50:01] But okay so the Star Wars dot com official summary of this part is meanwhile the real Osha awakens on an unknown world where someone has been tending to her wounds unmasked the stranger begins to educate the former Jedi padawan and his philosophy on grief and the power of the dark side attempting to seduce her to his cause.

[00:50:24] So oh yeah credit to Abby who called out the she's the one who first found the name of those little creatures we find on this unknown planet they're called the Skura. The Skura? Skura something like that yeah. They're not the same as the ones on Luke's planet.

[00:50:42] No the Porgs. Yeah.

[00:50:45] They're not well so on on Akto there was the which is a location for anyone who doesn't know that shows up in the sequel trilogy we talked about it in in the dawn of the Jedi and other overview episodes in the canon timeline podcast but yeah so.

[00:51:03] There's the Porgs there which find they could not show up but this is we know this is not the plan I'll tell you why in a minute but there is on that Akto planet these Thala siren which we see a character milking at one point for like a turquoise milk and those look kind of like bigger versions of these Skura but I think they are just completely different animals maybe biologically related.

[00:51:28] Yeah. Who knows what's related in Star Wars everything's made up in the point yeah the script description says they're part anteater part duck. This girl. I like it.

[00:51:41] Yeah, yeah they look like little they camouflages rocks like at one point OSHA walks by and they just freeze until she walked by and they pretend to be rocks you know yeah and they're like nuzzling each other like little turtle doves. Right. Yeah.

[00:51:57] Yes so they definitely labeled every other planet that we've been to in this show all the ones they made up and you know regular ones like once we've seen before like her son. Except this one they make a point of calling it the unknown planets and.

[00:52:13] Leslie headlin she admits it looks like after she said it's not up to I know it's similar and it was intentionally supposed to be similar in terms of terrain and feeling isolated and surrounded by water

[00:52:26] and less lush green and more rocky but the idea is that the court osis is mined on this planet so I don't think that's the case with a toe part of the reason that this is his home base is that court osis is a very rare metal I don't think we say it explicitly in the show but that's the reason it's not a toe so yeah.

[00:52:44] So it's not a toe because I thought is not a court osis planet which of which there are very few. And it is filmed in a different place after was filmed off the coast of Ireland and this is filmed on my data. Okay.

[00:52:58] Which I really want to go to now because like basic most of the show is from my my dad's gorgeous yeah yeah.

[00:53:04] Wow so there is I don't know if you remember john that there was a clone wars little sequence story sequence about a court osis mine that gets destroyed that was on a planet called a moquige hi if that's how you pronounce it.

[00:53:20] But most people think that this planet could be a planet that's only been in legend so far called ball damage like I mentioned. And ball damage is described as an ocean planets with rocky tropical islands and in the outer rim and it's.

[00:53:38] Of mostly the people who visited there where they're like for science and also for the court osis deposits and yet happens to be where the story between the Sith Lords Tenebris and plague is came to a head. Hmm. In legends so could play the same role here.

[00:54:01] Yeah if it's the same. Yeah huh. I'm into it I'm into it I'm like.

[00:54:08] You're selling me on the on the lower here yeah no I think it's I think it's fun I love I love because like David said it doesn't take anything away if you don't if you're not like I don't know it's just a planet whatever.

[00:54:21] Yeah yeah and I'm glad that you brought up court osis because I did not remember it from the Bane books and you know and it's even name drops in this episode right like they finally said it right I the minute I heard that I felt you in my mind my force bond with you.

[00:54:39] I felt you point out the screen like Leo and that meme. Yeah see it's real. Yep.

[00:54:46] Did you also notice that both sisters of course ocean now has one of May's knives are probably more because maybe seems to just have endless knives but they both approach each other's masters with a knife do you think that me this like showing they're more alike than OSHA thinks.

[00:55:01] Yes I think that she would like to I think well I think both of them deny their parts of the other one that are in them right like one of them wants to be fully dark one of them wants to be fully light and I don't know them.

[00:55:12] I don't know the man wants to be fully dark she wanted to be with oh fully with OSHA and that was with OSHA was like that's too much. Okay fair enough. That's my interpretation at least. Fair enough.

[00:55:26] I need I don't know about you but I need to know why OSHA left the order and I hope that that's I'm sure they're eventually going to tell us but I hope that that's one of the mysteries we get resolved in the next two episodes.

[00:55:37] Yeah I hope so I couldn't see them you know moving that to next season I think that's too much. Right they tease it too much right. Right. Yeah.

[00:55:48] Kymers of course he loves to play on like this is this is how emotional abusers treat people in real life they're like oh yeah no they all rejected you nobody else will love you like I love you baby you know why do you still think of yourself as a Jedi you have more in common with me I'm not a Jedi.

[00:56:07] I'm the same as you. I like it. What did you think of his responses to her getting mad about him killing her friends.

[00:56:17] I mean he's so much you know as much as the Jedi say we don't feel the emotions he's way more cool and collected than they ever are like even soul has a fucking meltdown on the ship. True. He is on the struggle bus. Yeah.

[00:56:33] It's really just have an hour time and yeah I think I think Osha sees that and and I'm sorry may sees that. No it's Osha. It's so different from her master. Yeah. No I meant I meant soul is on the struggle bus.

[00:56:47] Right right right and May sees right. Yeah yeah. May sees more remorse in him perhaps. Right. Yeah. Right. I think Osha she accepts it pretty quickly what Kamiya says to her. She's like you killed Yord.

[00:57:02] He's like a man who doesn't hesitate to turn you in for a crime you didn't commit and it was like she was like okay fair you know she didn't say that but it felt like that was her response. Then she's like more mad about Jackie which is fair.

[00:57:12] I'm also more mad about Jackie. Right. And then where did you think that was going to go. It would have been a one sided relationship like your master. Why do you love people who can't go as far or deep as you can. Yeah that's a good question.

[00:57:28] Why do you love people who are less than you he asks. Right right. Because she says so. Yeah but he manages to provoke her anger when we see her flex the force like you know he tells her.

[00:57:44] Apparently we learn that like I'll get into this in a sec but apparently the force is fading with her because she's been it's been atrophying because she hasn't been using it.

[00:57:52] But now he says the shortcut is to just like feel dark emotions and use that side and she can now ignite the saber. It's the first thing we see or do. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah I like the whole seduction angle you get more flies with honey. Yeah yeah.

[00:58:12] Is an interesting juxtaposition where we hear from him he says I lost everything when you lose everything you are finally free. And then may says to soul when you really want something it can cloud your mind.

[00:58:24] You see what you want to see and it's that feels like what she said about that as much as much about the Jedi as a Sith but like she's coming out of that clouded mind and realizing that Chimera was manipulating her. Right.

[00:58:37] Yeah yeah I it's interesting to see one fall into the seduction of the dark side and the other one get out of it. Mm hmm. Yeah passing each other like ships in the night or like ships coming and going from Kofar.

[00:58:51] Yeah and I'm still very curious how this forced dyad stuff is gonna work out if this has anything to do with that.

[00:58:57] Well he says so he says that she asked him what do you want well he's yeah okay so he says let me see where did it where is it.

[00:59:07] I made a mistake with me I thought she wanted more than just revenge I thought she wanted what I want and I was just as well what do you want he says the power of two. The power of man yeah power of manny.

[00:59:22] So the power of two of course it calls back to the witches but the power of two is also of course the rule of two the sith thing right right and also why. You know I think he does want to create a force dyad.

[00:59:34] So I don't know if he wants to create one between himself and one of the twins. Or if he was trying to manipulate one that might already exist between the two of them. Right right. Because I feel like he knew OSHA was alive before may did.

[00:59:52] Yeah I think so too I think he he had that from her deliberately. Yeah. Yeah what did you think of the helmet meditation sequence the sensory deprivation tank of the helmet.

[01:00:05] Oh I absolutely she was going to pick it from the beginning like she was just curious like what can I do and she has. She has been very very very. What do I want to say she's been very very less.

[01:00:27] Less less than her sister her whole life right like her sister has always been the powerful one. And now she is finally getting getting an opportunity to be something more and that's interesting that's that's something that right is a temptation. That I think she's going to fall for.

[01:00:47] Yeah. Yeah it is interesting because like they're using the same tools like meditation you know to clear your mind which you could.

[01:00:56] It's a light side as it is dark side but we find that in Star Wars storytelling and probably in life when you're left alone with your own thoughts.

[01:01:05] Like we see when they we there's a trope in Star Wars where Jedi go into a cave and they're confronted with the dark side.

[01:01:14] But also it's it's as Chymer says in this episode when you're in that state it's just you in the force and what you bring with you so you're bringing that dark side and confronting that side of yourself. Yeah.

[01:01:27] I found it I thought the filmmaking was very both like calming and unnerving you know. Yeah, it was it was and yeah I don't want to put that mask on I would be very frightened.

[01:01:41] Yeah, you can't see it all he was really he was doing all that stuff without fully being able to see. Yeah, that's insane. That's insane to me. But I saw a tweet and you're going to have to believe me but Chymer walks so could run.

[01:02:00] Oh, so yeah, there's just a blind Jedi from later in the timeline. So how long when Chymer said he was a Jedi betrayed by his master a long long time ago.

[01:02:15] I can still remember anyway. How long ago do you think he's he means like that makes it seem like he was emphasizing it like not it felt like more than like when I was a kid it felt like centuries ago but I've been frozen or in Stacy's in a back to tank.

[01:02:34] Yeah, it's it's a weird one and I don't know it could it could be just that he sees his childhood as long ago or we could have some crazy you know body transfer stuff going on like you mentioned earlier.

[01:02:48] And I don't think we've ever seen a successful body transfer right in the visual media. Yeah, I mean I guess you know if the one at the end is deemed successful.

[01:02:59] But it's definitely something they're going for so it could be I mean because there's a lot of things that the Jedi and Sith were capable of that become lost arts later in the timeline. Right. Right. My all the interesting right.

[01:03:16] It's not only interesting. What was it somebody said. Oh, somebody had a good word for it in the discord and I can't remember who it was.

[01:03:23] Well, I it was rafo and we've we've no no no but there was something else. No, somebody else said something else. Anyway, that's some hot lore. Yeah, no, it was another one anyway wheel weaves. No, no, no, no, it wasn't.

[01:03:36] Well, one day we'll see it had a lower in it had lower in it. I also find out that Chimera says he's not reading people's thoughts. He's reading their emotions. And I bring that up because I already mentioned Vanessa's former Padawan in Marie contours.

[01:03:52] And it just seems interesting to note that he, he had like an extreme version of empathy was his sort of forced talent. So it causes debilitating mental pain when he was dealing with other people's emotional states.

[01:04:08] So I just Emory was a blonde, you know, and this is a recently released book and, you know, really recently released material. And they're not he definitely does not look like kind of just putting that out there.

[01:04:21] But it is interesting that they both talk about this emotional connection and maybe have a connection with Frenestra. Right. What did you think about there's lots of questions we've gotten about this comment that Osha said about the force fades if not exercised.

[01:04:40] That's a great question. And I was thinking about that. I was like, have we heard that before? I don't know. Really? I mean, maybe maybe we've heard that you get out of practice, but that's way different than saying like your ability in the force fades.

[01:04:51] Yeah. Yeah. And especially she's only been out of the Jedi Order six years. Right. That's not that long. Right. Well, it is I guess it is when you're 20. Yeah, I guess that's true. It's a long time ago. Right.

[01:05:04] But I wonder. Yeah, I do think that they are setting up overall. Like we know that the Jedi become the force becomes more clouded for them a century after this and the Jedi become more conservative and institutionalized.

[01:05:18] So it feels like they're kind of setting that up and how maybe their lack of, you know, doing these great feats with the force they used to do cause them to atrophy. Yeah. And that's why we don't see it later. Yeah, I don't know.

[01:05:34] So there are two explanations for this clouding of the force that happens in the next era of the timeline. One comes from and both of them tie back to this point in the timeline. So one comes from legends, one comes from canon.

[01:05:50] The one from legends says that in 150 BBY, the Sith Lord Tenebrous and later working especially with his sorry with his apprentice Plagueis tore a hole in reality basically letting more dark side leak in.

[01:06:09] And then the Sith for the next century just kept continually expanding that tear until it clouded the light side of the force by the time of the prequel trilogies.

[01:06:18] The canon explanation comes from the High Republic book Light of the Jedi, which is the first book a lot of people read in the High Republic reading. It's the first adult novel in phase one, which is actually the second era chronologically.

[01:06:34] But anyway, we went through all that in the High Republic. I actually I just read this book says fresh in my mind at the very end of that book. So you remember do you want to read the quote? Oh, sure.

[01:06:44] So it's from marching row who is the head of this like of these Nihil super pirates that we've mentioned and he's taken loading great storm who is a Jedi who showed up in young Jedi adventures. He's taking him captive and says, Is he young in young Jedi adventures?

[01:07:00] No, no, he's there with he's there with Bell. He's there with Bell, his Padawan who's hanging out with the kids. Yeah, gotcha. My family knew all about you people. They told me what you could do and how to resist it.

[01:07:14] He gestured vaguely toward the other cells filled with tortured prisoners. They're not getting out either. If they die, I'll just bring in more. Their job is to fill this entire deck with pain and anger and fear makes it hard for you to think, doesn't it?

[01:07:31] Hard for you to call on the force. He leaned back against a nearby wall and crossed his arms. My grandmother told me how to do it. She learned from hers. You don't imprison Jedi behind bars. You do it with pain.

[01:07:45] Yeah, so who's who's Marta on that on that chain? You know, the grandmother, right? The single grandmother. It was probably the grandmother's grandmother, right? No, I think. Oh, she said she was 100 years. Right. Well, no, yeah, but and then she passed it on. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm sorry.

[01:08:07] But it says my grandmother told me how to do it and she learned from hers. So the first one in that chain of knowledge has to be Marta based on. Hmm. OK, but there's a hundred years in between. So is there?

[01:08:18] But anyway, they're passing it down through the Ro family and for these are not for sensitive people themselves. So it's not the same as Chimera, but right. It is like this philosophy of you. Yeah, you basically distract the Jedi with echoes of pain in the force. Right.

[01:08:35] It's interesting stuff. Yeah. There was also in the high republic there was a transdocian Jedi, which is like transdotion. Transdotion are like lizard people who are especially known for their their often slavers and they often had wookiee slaves.

[01:08:53] So wookiees like to rip their arms off, but that's neither here nor there for this. But there's a transdotion Jedi named Seeker who lost the force due to something called Magrock syndrome, which is a syndrome that causes transdotians to experience rage and aggression.

[01:09:11] And the minds attempt to stave off the encephalopathy disease and so for the medical people, you know what I mean? Yeah. But it makes it impossible for him to connect with the force.

[01:09:28] And this helps him in the part of his book, by the way, because they are fighting this force eating entity called the Nameless that John and I've talked about before.

[01:09:38] But yeah, just another way that it shows that like that seems to be the direction they're going in canon that you create more confusion and pain and aggression to cloud the light side with just negative emotions.

[01:09:51] Yeah, which I think that's more interesting than having like magical talismans basically. Mm hmm. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Otherwise, it's just I just don't think that's as interesting as like as doing it through the inherent weaknesses and being a good person. Right. Right. Yeah.

[01:10:13] I mean, and also just the fact that like the Sith have been whatever this plan is, they've been concocting it now for 900 years. That was how long the rule of two has been in place since the collapse of the old Sith Empire and everything. So yeah, better.

[01:10:30] It's something you have to give them credit. Something they've been building. And so it does. It should not have a simplistic answer. It's something that has to grow over these centuries until they've reached the point to pounce. Hmm. Yeah.

[01:10:44] Um, so I found it really interesting just because we've been talking so much about like how much the lore of this show is or is not new. I actually found a Reddit post from nine years ago. So not really that recent.

[01:11:01] And they say that basically this this falling of, you know, the clouding of the force, they say it's not. Oh, and this is by the way from fantasy liver. Fantasy liver says this is not due to Darth Sidious influence on the dark side.

[01:11:17] Darth Sidious being a Sith in the next age, important Sith in the next age. It's due to the Jedi themselves. So keep in mind that the Sith have only had two members of their order for at least a millennium.

[01:11:29] How then does such a small order with nowhere near the resources of the Jedi managed to become so powerful, especially when in the Old Republic era there were thousands of Sith present and no Jedi mentions of their forcibility weakening?

[01:11:42] So this is due to the fact that the Sith order is very adaptive and fluid to a modern world while it is shown that the Jedi are held back by ancient traditions and a rigidity that has turned many of its members against the organization.

[01:11:57] The Jedi have not advanced their philosophy since the Old Republic era, and the stagnation manifests itself in their diminished forcibility in the Clone Wars alone. Oh, and then we're going to skip that because.

[01:12:09] So I just think it's it's interesting that like people are saying like, Oh, this this show is making people question the Jedi like no, this is from nine years ago and this was already the storytelling people were picking up from Star Wars.

[01:12:22] Oh yeah, you know, it's funny. I was saying that I think that this is the most lore heavy Star Wars have been in a while. That's live action.

[01:12:31] I think the animators have actually been the source of most of the lore drops in the last few years and the books too, but as far as on screen.

[01:12:38] Yeah, that's true. That's true. And a lot of these people saying that this is all new just didn't watch that stuff, which you know not everyone can watch everything or read everything or you know it's just a massive amount of content.

[01:12:50] But just if you think something might be new, maybe look it up because maybe it's not right now.

[01:12:58] And of course we see also people sever the force. We see this a lot later in the timeline. People do it intentionally because they've been traumatized or they want to like hide themselves in some way.

[01:13:09] We see very rarely, but especially in Knights of the Old Republic to someone's cut off from the force by the Jedi Council. Is that permanent? Oh well spoilers for Codor, but it's more after that in the timeline so yeah. Alright, fair enough. Fair enough.

[01:13:28] You know I own Codor and I've been thinking about playing it but I'm like one time two it is so dated. It's so hard. So I did listen to a lot of your episodes with Bob with that. Yeah. Because I was like maybe I'll just get.

[01:13:41] Well that was yeah the Codor episode was with Marchin. Was with what? Was with Marchin. He's a game player. Oh I thought that was Bob. Bob. But does the Star Wars has not yet made their games accessible for the visually impaired? Well tell them get on it. Yes.

[01:13:58] Tell them if I can do my alt text and notion they can make their. We have to shout out Cambrian Mamo on Twitter who tweets at Star Wars once a day every day urging them to at least put alt text on their Twitter posts. Oh that's good. Yeah.

[01:14:16] Good to give them that nudge. Yes. Maybe someday they'll pay attention. They actually did it for like OK when there was a what was it the Star Wars big convention in London. They did it for like a week and then stopped again. Why? I don't know. That's bizarre.

[01:14:34] Bizarre. Yeah. Well hopefully Star Wars Alice. I will say as much as Ubisoft has its issues it is very good lately at accessibility. Now that they're making the new Star Wars game that's coming out in August I think that that will be something good. Yeah.

[01:14:50] I'm excited about it. Yeah that's gonna be a fun one even though it's not like I do tend to like the force users and this one is the you know the scoundrels but it looks great the world building and yeah.

[01:15:02] I don't know I really liked the battlefront campaigns and so I think that I'm going to like this. I think I'm going to like it a lot. OK.

[01:15:11] So just see I wanted to mention two other like force nullifiers is one from Canon and from the High Republic books we've already talked about the Nameless which are also force eaters and also the East Salamiri are from legends from the Throne books.

[01:15:25] Although we saw a statue of them in rebels the animated series. Oh really I didn't know that. Yeah. I only learned about this creature recently because I read Air to the Empire. OK yeah.

[01:15:37] Yeah so they create like they're almost like like a steadying and Wheel of Time turn terms like where they get like a dome of where you just can't touch the force.

[01:15:45] Yeah but it's not like suffering like the Nameless do it's it's just like no these are like I've lost something like I lost like a sense. I'm blindfolded right now that it like destroys you. Right right. But just yeah so it seems maybe just putting out there.

[01:16:04] These are the options that could be a play with what's been going on with OSHA but I think we're meant to understand it's it's mostly her own psychological trauma and then she breaks through because she goes the easy way through the dark side.

[01:16:17] Is that what you took away from it. Yeah I think she she's got some performance anxiety and kind of sees that and he's going to play on that too. Yeah.

[01:16:27] Yeah well should we get into the feedback and see what other people say yeah let's do it alright do you wanna take the lead on the feedback sure people can hear another voice sure I know I know I'm I feel like I because I this is my second podcast of the day I don't know how much I have left of opinions.

[01:16:47] We just for anyone who's wondering we just had a deep dive into the fifth element for lower hound subscriber. So I appreciate that you've carried a lot of this podcast. I'm also I'm like here's more lore eat it love it. Yeah. Of course.

[01:17:05] It's a it's the mistranspable cake right. Yeah. Oh you wanted more lore. Alright John M after episode four wrote in the Kelnock a death lens even more credence to Vernestra being the Darth tooth snakes are green just saying.

[01:17:23] So we know after episode five of course we know that it's the vernestras not dark tooth but a lot of people are still really suspicious of her and I thought it was really funny since it's a snakes are green just saying. Yeah.

[01:17:36] He who after episode five said I think it's most likely for Nestra she's some sort of which she's got the whip and I think the light whips are which stuff but what if it's OSHA.

[01:17:47] Here's how I could see it working OSHA either carry darkness in the beginning and saw the Jedi opportunistically less likely or slid down a dark path in the wake of the trauma of losing her family and blaming her sister possibly she already knew may was alive.

[01:18:01] Maybe she finds a Sith holocron that teaches her some stuff she leaves the Jedi order with the intention of getting revenge or possibly innocently and then finds a holocron and or learns that may is alive while also getting all city with it.

[01:18:18] She plots revenge and disguising herself recruits Chimera who under her direction recruits may she orchestrates the whole thing intending to culminate with either becoming a dark side duo with may or taking revenge on may who she believes is responsible for the deaths of her family more likely.

[01:18:37] Maybe she's using pip as a two way hollow in holocon thing. Thingy.

[01:18:46] Alright probably pip is some mode is in some mode that doesn't remember pip most likely turns red a la c3po speaking the sith language I mean that did this it was written by the way to this episode yeah.

[01:18:59] She stayed home on the night of the first murder to communicate with Chimera in disguise she hollow projects instructions to Chimera things go awry when main learns OSHA is alive and begins to repent OSHA has no plan for when the roles are reversed at some point Chimera becomes alarmed that his real master OSHA hasn't made contact and tries to ping her may is carrying pip now.

[01:19:23] And we have a cut from Chimera trying to signal to pip having a red light flash. OSHA being afraid to stun may but trying to recruit your yard is trying it to whack her make some sense.

[01:19:42] If she's trying to both use and kill me in the end doesn't want her trauma doesn't want her neutralize yet always likes having someone else to do her dirty work see said lesson one.

[01:19:54] Sit lesson number one is that you have to kill the Jedi without weapons which actually means getting someone else to do it maybe via subterfuge.

[01:20:03] For instance getting an acolyte to do it for you or a gazillion on troopers will you pull the strings from the shadows I'm not aware that the cannon sit lesson but it should be or maybe it's from one of the witch cults.

[01:20:16] I'm not married to the idea but I don't think it's completely implausible or meritless and good piece in good pods you hoop you do you believe in aliens in the real world.

[01:20:27] I feel like we've uncovered a conspiracy theory level to you that is it's new and I like it I'm like no I think I think it's not completely implausible and we do have to say that they called out the fact that pips eyes were turned red which is interesting.

[01:20:44] So I have two questions coming out of this like if so if someone gave me or the thing you have to kill a Jedi without a weapon and then came here passes it on to a new acolyte if to kill a Jedi without a weapon is this like a killer Jedi without a weapon pyramid scheme going on.

[01:21:00] Could be anything nobody knows I still think killer Jedi without a weapon is to like corrupt them or yeah I think so too it's it's to get them to attack you unarmed we've heard that so many times and even soul says in this episode.

[01:21:15] Yeah but I have a question about pip based on all of this which is where and when and from whom did she get pip. That's a good question too I feel like this is.

[01:21:33] I will so soul notices this now which means she couldn't have had it when she was a Jedi right. I guess I mean he has to be fair he's been spending a lot of time with her recently.

[01:21:46] Yeah but that was her master so he wouldn't know yeah she had that right earlier right but he didn't say that she didn't did he know but but I just like that's a conversation they would have had already. I don't know maybe not maybe I'm wrong.

[01:22:01] Maybe he gave it to her. Good good good point there. But I but then I feel like he would call it pip and not your droid. Well I think that was also because he knew he was talking to me in that at that moment oh true true.

[01:22:17] Maybe he was trying to see if she'll say pip.

[01:22:20] Yeah I think he I my my interpretation is that he knew the whole time that it was maybe he thought like I'll try you know to get through with her while she's pretending to be OSHA and then at the moment she was like actually I'm going to call the cops on you he's like okay we're done.

[01:22:36] Right right. All right Tom after episode five said hi John and Alicia I had a theory about Darth thirst teeth. To be a Sith.

[01:22:46] I definitely think the theory that he himself is merely an apprentice is likely but there was an angle slash prediction I had that wasn't mentioned in the show. I'm wondering if the Sith claimants we see aren't actually Sith.

[01:23:00] If they are that they will attention to the attention of the actual set hiding in the galaxy. Imagine they'd be happy that there's a group out there doing things in their name and riling up Jedi to be on the lookout and below their cover.

[01:23:16] I could see if the current story is in a good place by seasons end that this season ends or next season begins with a confrontation of Kim here slashes master or even kind mirror.

[01:23:27] Slices master receiving the kill knocker treatment where to parallel may find in Cal knock a dead OSHA finds Kim here or his master dead with Darth ten diverse or plague is stepping out of the shadows as the assailant.

[01:23:44] Would be a cool cliffhanger to end on and would allow future diving into what the real set have been up to this whole time thanks for all the coverage I've enjoyed catching up on the timeline and hearing your thoughts Tom.

[01:23:55] P.s. I'm actually enjoying the spoiler policy and somewhere in the middle of Alicia and John when it comes to Star Wars knowledge so I take it as a cool way to quiz myself to see if I know what you're talking about.

[01:24:05] Thank you Tom and we do have a special section at the end of the feedback where we get into more feedback about what people think about the spoiler policy so okay cool. Very nice.

[01:24:18] Yes thank you Tom I like this idea that they're gonna beat the sit out this is actually something that I think during the next era there is a whole thing of what we do if one of the former sit becomes too loud. Hmm.

[01:24:34] Yeah, that's a whole thing where a sip Lord has to deal with that like a you know this PR PR for the stuff. Yeah I think I don't think that cameos gonna die this season though I think.

[01:24:47] That they're going to I mean I think they know that that's that's a draw to bring people back for season two but he's such a good so I know people like don't want him to be plague is and I don't for the same reasons which are vaguely like plague is supposed to be a moon and you know I see the right age and blah blah blah at the same time.

[01:25:05] If you were plague is which it's canon like we don't really know much about plague is in canon so could be if he were somehow that that would be cool just because he's such a good villain and that's such an important name in Star Wars history that would just be nice to have like a really cool play gets but I think it's more likely he's venomous who is who was ten of races second acolyte who he kind of portrait instead of.

[01:25:36] Yeah he's like no you're not the one that I'm investing in I'm just gonna do experiments on you instead. Fair enough and again this is something that we see recurring right is that they give lip service to the rule of two but in the end.

[01:25:52] It's not really that it's not it's never really followed. Yeah there's always extras right.

[01:26:00] Alright let's move on to Arthur after episode five said regarding the episode on acolyte where you made reference to red shirts here's a crossover opportunity I recently saw a cartoon entitled something along the lines of Schrodinger's crossover.

[01:26:14] Where a bunch of red shirts were locked in a room with a bunch of Empire stormtroopers given the troops. I give in the tropes see there's too many TRL this is again where like an hour for podcast.

[01:26:28] Given the tropes that red shirts are cannon fodder and that stormtroopers are incapable of hitting anything what do you find when you unlock the room.

[01:26:38] Did the bullets bounce off the walls because I might have a stormtroopers right right I feel like both sides accidentally kill each other kill each other their selves rather right yeah that seems fair yeah.

[01:26:51] I gambling a getting get I can't talk anymore a getting draft after episode five says. Regarding the use of two lightsabers as discussed in the podcast I remember in coach or to they talk about different styles the main character uses so single two blades and double lightsaber.

[01:27:11] An NPC mentions of the twin and double blades were more slaughter per swing and lightsabers were meant to be more defensive weapons and offensive.

[01:27:22] I've always taken this to mean that a Jedi defaulting to more than one saber would be seen as too aggressive or not sticking to the ideals of being a Jedi.

[01:27:31] Yeah I'm gonna push back on that I don't I don't think so I think we see plenty of dual lightsabers for light side users.

[01:27:37] I mean we see we see some but it is like so we that's when you have the dual lights I lightsabers it's called jerk I again as we mentioned last week.

[01:27:47] We do see some but I think it is a more known to be a more aggressive style so like one character we see do it is a soca and we won't spoil her plot but.

[01:28:00] Yeah she's we see it often with characters who are not like your traditional Jedi at least let's say yeah. Also.

[01:28:09] I think that the whole point is that you only have to lightsabers of two cover crystals call out to you right exactly so that's that's probably the biggest thing limiting it for sure right so like the will of the force is with the people who have to lightsabers.

[01:28:23] Right I guess that's so what does that say about time here. Hmm good question well at the same time Sith often get their lightsabers by taking them and corrupting them right so it's not the same as the way a Jedi you know naturally finds their Kyber crystal.

[01:28:38] Yes but not all Jedi do because especially later in the timeline when you know Jedi don't doing things the same way for reasons we see people just like finding lightsabers are inheriting them or like at this point in the timeline the dark sabers already being passed down from.

[01:28:54] You know this is on Mandalore right good good good points and a lot yeah.

[01:29:01] And we do know by the way that's Leslie headland said several times that's a crayon who's a character in the second code or nights of the over public game so I talk through her whole story and that episode in the canon timeline podcast feed.

[01:29:16] But we know that Leslie she's a particular inspiration in this show for Leslie headland Leslie headland said like I looked at Cray or dark tray as she's called in Sith terms and she's like I'm taking some stuff from her and one of the things she took from her is a lightsaber lightsaber style known as truck.

[01:29:35] So. Truck is basically where you have a style where you take advantage of the fact that a lightsaber is one of the only melee weapons where you can retract the blade and put it back out again so they use this.

[01:29:52] Resheathing and unsheathing motion to like kind of do a tricksy way so we saw this happen with Jackie.

[01:30:00] Where you know is the second secret blade and then it just went pump pump pump punctured her real quick three times in a row this would be called the flash flash move.

[01:30:09] Another move that they do in this truck is this past the blade where basically someone tries to block you with your blade and see you pull your blade in so you can sneak behind it and then stick it out again.

[01:30:23] And there's also the unbalancing block where you're blocking someone else and then is so they have their lightsaber against yours and they're leaning into it so you quickly retract your blade and they fall forward because they're off balance now.

[01:30:37] But the thing is not many people do this because both the Jedi and Sith look down on this or at least they did in legends because they thought it's kind of like a cowardly cheap move cheating kind of. Right. Interesting.

[01:30:53] Where was I because I scroll down oh sorry read a reborn reader reborn so Chimere is either benestras Padawan not Emory who was her Padawan in the books yeah okay or he's possibly any humanoid support whoever existed or something else i'm going to put that out there right like it could just be something else and I like that if it is.

[01:31:15] Unless he's extended his life or use cryogenics but Emory is blonde so I don't think it's him I do think Chimere extended his life or use cryogenics though and if it's cryogenics he could be anybody.

[01:31:28] Yeah and I asked if it could be mine transference and he said who hadn't thought of that puts Emory card back on the table also both of Osha's mother's quote my mother could do that.

[01:31:39] My mother could do that oh yeah it can get inside the head I would like that I would like that if it's a it's like what if oh man what if but it can't be no but it can't be one of the mothers in Chimere though because then it's really creepy when he looks at her and says desire and pops the.

[01:31:57] Oh yeah I don't like that you're right you're right and Star Wars ain't gonna do that Disney is not greenlighting that right this is not this is not Westeros right right.

[01:32:06] Even in Westeros I don't think that's gonna yeah not not parents and children yeah like uncles and cousins and brothers here right. Abby after episode six says Vernestra is definitely Chimere's former master I think she knows who did the destruction on Kofar.

[01:32:24] Will we see her will we see next to our attempts to spin another story to look good to the Senate her Padawan Mogg sounded sycophantic already suggested that soul might be responsible at least in Abby had a little smirk face there.

[01:32:40] At least they collected the body of the bodies for burial on the dark the Darth thirst slash scar slash desire side oh my many wars is really horny isn't it. She pointed out that the creatures are called school yeah.

[01:32:59] I mean yeah this is the hornyest hours has ever been and I don't hate it it's as horny as mall yeah we did get a proper sex scene of sorts in and or. That's true that's true. Next always growing up.

[01:33:13] John says I mean the show is hitting all cylinders for me and this mystery has got me hooked cliffhangers were staples pre streaming and all but I had all but forgotten how upsetting and exciting those erupt and he's had me lol lol lol lol.

[01:33:29] Chime I am such a very dope character though he keep saying things that have me convinced that he is not but he very much had script tendencies lol lol lol lol. What's going on with John neck John use of lol lol lol lol.

[01:33:52] Thanks науч ID and the cliffhangers i have mixed feelings about. I kind of love them. It's fun. I mean, as long as like... I think they're gonna wrap it. She said they're gonna wrap it up this season and leave some teases for a planned season two,

[01:34:06] but as long as it's nothing obnoxious at the end of the season, I love a weekly cliffhanger where I can be like, ooh, but what's gonna happen next? Although I am a little annoyed. I'm like, Saul, frickin' tell your story already. I know.

[01:34:19] Look, I'll be happy as long as I'm not left with the identity of the stranger being, I am good. Remember Rings of Power? Yes. It was a whole thing and I didn't like that. I didn't like that with the other stranger. It's, I mean, so by the way,

[01:34:36] I have to say that the other stranger in Rings of Power, sorry, I'm gonna say a spoiler for the first season of Rings of Power now which came out over a year ago, but I was really resistant at first that it would be Gandalf.

[01:34:50] I really wanted to be a blue wizard or something, but by the end, it was like, well yeah, of course it's Gandalf. It makes sense. I'm on board and I think it's the same with Chimera. I was like, oh, I don't want to be Chimera,

[01:35:01] let it be someone less obvious, but then the reveal of Chimera happened. I'm like, oh yeah, no, no, no. This is perfect. Right, right. I hear you. I'm with it. All right, Rocky Zim says, interesting episode, part of me wondered

[01:35:15] if he is an old Sith Lord like Exar Kun. Maybe he was possessed by Kun and was lured away from Ro, wishful thinking on my part, LOL, lol. Yeah, so Ro is Venestra's last name and Exar Kun, we talked about him in the Old Republic overview I believe,

[01:35:34] or maybe he's, anyway. He was a, yeah, he was a former Jedi who turned to the dark side, became a Sith Lord. He lived like thousands of years before this, but he, yeah, it's not impossible that he was in stasis

[01:35:48] or that he entered the mind of somebody else. We did mention in the Old Republic overview that Exar Kun is probably most famous for inventing the double-bladed saber. Right, okay, very cool. Davy Mack says, so we end up with Sol saying he's going to tell all

[01:36:09] and Osha putting on the helmet. I'm wondering if the sensory deprivation that Chimera talked about might help Osha clear her mind of any fiddling the Jedi may have done with her memory. So then next episode, we simultaneously get Sol's story and Osha's true memory of what happened.

[01:36:26] I don't know if the Jedi messed with her memory or just withheld information. Yeah, I think probably with, because we saw her side of things and she just had a limited view of what happened. Right, and I think it's more interesting that way, right?

[01:36:39] Just like a comedy of errors kind of thing. Yeah, she was mostly in her room and missed everything. She just heard like a scream and, you know, and whatever the drama with her sister was. Right, all right, Thomas C says,

[01:36:51] I just found you and I'm head over heels. Wait, did you say Dove71? Oh, I've missed Dove. I can't miss Stu. Dove71 says, I am having some time to think my latest theory is Chimera is Venestra's fallen padawan picked up by Darth Tenebrous discarded early on.

[01:37:10] Chimera wanders the unknown regions and finds Ren. Ren gives Chimera his philosophy and more training. Chimera wants some payback on both the Sith and the Jedi, so he plays a very long game. Okay, I'm into that. I'm into this Knights of Ren relationship.

[01:37:30] This is kind of where I am, where I'm like, well, I think maybe he was a Jedi and he was a Sith and he was rejected from both and then found this new philosophy, which might be connected to the Nile. I'm still putting that theory on the table.

[01:37:45] Fair enough. Thomas C. says, I just found you and I'm head over heels. Thanks for the passion and thank you for not falling into the let's hate Star Wars category. Would love to hang out and bring all my action figures. Well, Thomas, tell you what,

[01:38:00] you help spread the word about the lore hounds and you get a stall like a million downloads a month and we will throw a lore con and there will be an action figure. There will be an action figure. Gathering. Yes. Yeah, this is the second time you promised

[01:38:18] a million downloads an episode and we got lore con. Yep. All right. It's out there. Marilyn after episode five said, I would not say that the dark is needed for the existence of light nor for balance. Balance is needed because the dark exists in the Star Wars universe.

[01:38:35] I've yet to see the dark being used for love or for good, but it could be possible. To my mind, the dark manifests when people make harmful choices. Can I just say, I said on the Discord to this that I wondered if the creation of Osha and Mei

[01:38:51] could be the dark being used for good. And didn't Chimier heal her too? Yeah, it's unclear because I thought it looked like he did a little bit, but she did still have... She wasn't completely healed this episode, but I don't know. But we have seen in the books,

[01:39:07] I noticed that there are times where a Jedi says, hey, I can do a little bit of healing, I'm not green. I will make sure that you're stable and then we'll get you to be a real medic. Yeah, exactly. So that could be a thing. Yeah.

[01:39:20] To my mind, the dark manifests when people make harmful choices. Anger, fear, violence all exist and one must learn how much of those things they carry within themselves and decide how they are going to recognize and accept them without letting them be in control.

[01:39:34] Not to mention doing the work of whatever healing they can of those wounds. Of course, darkness in and of itself serves a very important function in nature. Bulbs, seeds and roots could not function without darkness beneath the soil. We are conceived and carried within the darkness of wounds.

[01:39:52] Digestion happens in darkness and it is only when the sun's light is blocked that we can see the other stars in the sky. But these things are not about moral judgments or behaviors. We have chosen the binary light and dark to represent a moral framework,

[01:40:07] but that is distinct from a natural framework. Of course, your mileage may vary. So I have to say just about that in general is that I do think the idea maybe in the beginning was like the more black and white sort of fantasy storytelling

[01:40:26] that used to be more popular now. In general, the world is like fantasy fans are more interested in gray storytelling and Star Wars has also drifted in that direction. We see in this show especially, we see that like Chimera confronts Saul

[01:40:40] and he's like, well, it's not that you don't have darkness, it's that you're trying so hard to deny it that it's getting in your own way. Right. And it actually reminds me of a conversation Luke and I had about the end of the Beacon 23 show

[01:40:55] and I won't spoil the ending, but one aspect of it is that there is a... Yeah, there's an entity that wants to create another entity to be as non-threatening as possible, you know, just... And there's something like they come across as benevolent,

[01:41:13] but there's also just something highly sinister in that in that when we completely deny our... The sad sides of ourselves. Well, first of all, the lighter sides don't shine as brightly without that contrast of shadow. Right. But it's just unhealthy also and it just always backfires.

[01:41:30] So I think that it is about the balance in terms of like the Jedi are not right to say that anger doesn't exist. And not that they say it, but you're not right to completely deny yourself of it because there is use to these emotions

[01:41:46] as outlets and other reasons. Yeah, and there is also the problem, honestly, that George Lucas has specifically said, oh, well actually the light side is balanced in Star Wars. Like the dark side is not part of the balance.

[01:42:04] And I don't think I agree with him about his own. So I don't think... Yeah, you're the only one who's told me about that and I believe you, but I choose to ignore that because it makes no sense with anything else. This is like...

[01:42:17] This is on the level of Tolkien saying that the Lord of the Rings isn't an allegory for anything. You know, like it's just... I think sometimes you're just too close to your work and you can't see what it is from a distance. Right.

[01:42:33] Well, it's also, you know, you go through phases where you doubt things. Like I think of with Interview with the Vampire, Anne Rice at one point, she became an uber Christian. She's like, oh no, there's not gays in my books. And then...

[01:42:44] But her own son is gay too. And then later on she like, of course corrected and she's like, oh wait, no, sorry. Like here, here's some extra gays to make up for that. All right. All right. Interview with the Vampire aside, Marilyn continues.

[01:42:57] I think Soul didn't tell Osha what happened on the planet sooner because she wanted to be a Jedi, but was experiencing blockage from the trauma of what she had experienced on Brandoc and this interfered with her training. Whatever Soul knows is highly unlikely

[01:43:10] to have produced greater balance within Osha. I think or else he would have told her early on. Then she left before he could tell her what happened and he decided to leave it at that. It's also possible that the political side

[01:43:23] of the Jedi organization decided the less said about Brandoc, the better. I will neither condemn nor defend that choice. So much depends on the wider political climate at the time. What the Jedi were going through and what they had recently been through.

[01:43:39] And many thanks to Alicia for asking her friend to ask a friend to give her reactions to possible Yoruba influences over the witchcraft we were seeing on Brandoc. I had recognized the similarities between the name Osha and the Yoruba goddess, Oshun.

[01:43:54] But I had no idea if the showrunners are deliberately using that echoing or if it's just to their minds a logical nickname derived from her full name, which escapes me at the moment. Yeah, no, I think it's quite possible. There are like these little Easter eggs like that

[01:44:12] in terms of naming. It's quite possible they might have intentionally... Because you know, because Oshun is the O-S-H-U-N, in spelt in English at least, is the fertility goddess. And the thing about May and Osha are that they are like some sort of unnatural birth.

[01:44:31] So it seems like, yeah, there's a good chance there was a link there on purpose. Yeah, that's interesting. Marilyn says after episode six, dang, they were being so mean to us. As soon as Sol said I'm going to tell you when the music started, I thought no.

[01:44:45] But I was right. It feels like TV of the 1950s and 60s to be continued. Yeah, that's my biggest complaint. I know you like it, Alicia, don't worry. We don't have to re-argue it. I know. I think Vanestra was Chimera's master,

[01:45:01] something to tip the scales, she said, of the massacre, i.e. to shift the political opinion against the Jedi, which was already beginning to happen as shown in that brief scene with the senator. And I really did not need that view of dear dead Jackie. Jackie.

[01:45:16] Though I'm glad someone took care of the bodies. Could an island with cortosis, which really sounds like a medical condition rather than an ore or metal, truly be unknown if it's so dangerous to Jedi. I know it's a big galaxy and this is, I believe, the outer rim.

[01:45:34] Osha as Pandora and the helmet as temptation don't go for the unknown that's dangled by a dark warrior. But didn't her breathing just sound like a certain Darth Blank? Hmm, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um... Yeah, about cortosis. Yeah, this is in the outer rim,

[01:45:55] but I think it's rare enough that... And this is like early enough in the timeline where they haven't fully explored the outer rim and a lot of the outer rim was behind this so-called storm wall for a while because of the conflict with the Nile 100 years before this.

[01:46:10] So it's possible, yeah, I can see it's possible they just don't know where this is. I'm, um... Actually, Marilyn, she kindly wrote in to talk in an episode that will have released just before this. I'll talk about this at the end of the podcast.

[01:46:27] Um, and the Canon Timeline podcast timeline and there's, I read a passage in it that's from a myth set at the beginning of the Star Wars timeline um, that just kind of reminds you how in the middle of nowhere space was to them

[01:46:45] and what an unknown thing it was. It was like crossing, going, exploring the outer rim. Um, especially before this, but it was like, it was like going into the ocean and just hoping you find land, you know? Right. And the outer rim is one thing.

[01:47:01] There's also other threats to the Jedi like the Nameless that were not known before the High Republic era. So there's plenty, plenty going on that the Jedi are not aware of. Right. All right. Let's move on to Maureen D. You said, I'm wondering when the premise

[01:47:17] of the Jedi having a legal right to take children came into lore. I've always seen this as something the family had the option to approve. I haven't read any of the books. I've always seen the search for reincarnations of the Buddha as inspiration

[01:47:30] for testing children with the Force. Oh yeah, that, that, I mean, they, they ripped that in Avatar The Last Airbender, but it's in here too. Yeah. No, yeah. George Lucas said, you know, that there were definitely Buddhist influences on the Jedi ideology. Right.

[01:47:48] And Marilyn says, again, I'm wondering if this sort of stance is a reflection of some previous very challenging conflict with the Nioh maybe? I've heard Alicia talking about that in the context of the Jedi themselves, but I would be interested to know the wider implications for the Republic.

[01:48:04] I also would like to know more about how much, how much authority the Republic has at this point and just how extensive that particular confederation was. Was the Outer Rim considered wild at this point? Yeah. So they had actually made it further into the Outer Rim

[01:48:21] until the Nioh forced them to retreat. So it is, yeah, it is kind of pretty wild out there in the Outer Rim. And indeed, because of this conflict, it did lead to them pressing children to become Padawans and Padawans to become Jedi at a younger age

[01:48:39] in order to confront that. And I think the effect that it had on the Republic is that the Republic did not have a standing army at this point. During the High Republic, they just kind of like would try to do the thing, oh, when conflict comes up,

[01:48:55] everyone has to send soldiers from every planet in the Republic. Right. Which is a great idea, but doesn't necessarily always work the way you want it to. I mean, that's a traditional medieval feudal style military, right? Exactly. But I think basically what we're seeing is why the Republic

[01:49:18] and the Jedi start working more closely together and start becoming looking more like the same entity. Yeah, which I think is an intentional sloppy, it's an intentional obfuscation of what the Jedi are by the sip. Right. All right, so let's talk about the feedback from last week,

[01:49:40] top of last week, about the structure of the podcast. It seems like you have a lot of notes here, so I'm going to pass it back to you. All right, well, just I'll read this first one and then you can read the other three.

[01:49:51] But so the first one, the other three were, I think, all email feedback or Discord feedback. The first one was a three-star review left on the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast feed on Apple. And the review says, spoiler, there's no spoilers.

[01:50:08] I love the lore hounds for their in-depth knowledge and insights into stories, but the Star Wars Acolyte pod is so, spoiler restricted, that it loses what makes the lore hounds great, the lore. So yeah, I mean, of course, yeah,

[01:50:24] you're free to give me whatever kind of review you want. And of course, it's not your problem if it hurts my search rankings and makes it harder for the fledgling podcast to find new listeners. But I do have to push back a little bit

[01:50:35] on the idea that the podcast lacks lore because I thought maybe it was the opposite that was the problem, that maybe there was too much lore. So I think there's an abundance of lore. I think it's the fact that we're not talking about

[01:50:48] specifically the movies you've seen directly that's throwing you, and I get that. I wonder if it helps to think about it similarly to how in the House of the Dragon podcast, Jon, you've read Fire and Blood, but for David and for the listeners who have not,

[01:51:06] you don't say future spoilers in that pod. So it's kind of a similar deal here. Like, it's not... You can, you might say, you know, oh, in Fire and Blood, oh, people know this Alice Rivers is going to be interesting. But you're not going to say like,

[01:51:24] well, this is what her story plays out. So I don't know. I wonder if thinking about it that way helps with the people who are feeling similarly to not Q-Bert. Yeah, I think people just aren't used to... They aren't used to... looking at Star Wars this way

[01:51:41] because it's always been told out of order. And this is just a unique way to tell Star Wars. And I think it's a really interesting way and it hasn't been done before. And there's so many resources that are already like, here's all the references to later.

[01:51:51] And so we're trying to not be the wiki and we're trying to, you know, we're trying to do our own thing. Give you a different perspective, yeah. Yeah. But your feedback, it's been noticed in the... noted in the balance of feedback. So yeah, definitely as always,

[01:52:04] thank you for sharing your thoughts. And if anyone else has any more thoughts or you want to share then the inbox, swtimelinepodcast at gmail.com is open and I definitely want to hear them. And if anyone does enjoy the way that we're covering the lore on this podcast

[01:52:20] and feels willing and able to leave a review on the Star Wars Canon Timeline Podcast feed wherever you're listening, it would be a huge help in getting this little podcast stream that I've been developing over the past couple of years off the ground.

[01:52:33] So yeah, reviews that encourage people to listen are very much appreciated. If that's not how you feel, obviously, then, you know... Right. But for anyone who does, thank you in advance. I love you. All right. Chris M writes in and says, Hello, Alicia.

[01:52:50] I have never written in or anything but felt compelled after hearing the feedback you shared about spoilers from lore dumps. I have loved Star Wars for as long as I remember. As a youngling, I would read Star Wars encyclopedias and would love to know all the little things,

[01:53:07] trivia questions and the like. I would watch the original trilogy movies over and over. I loved it. Although as time moved forward, I continued to watch theatrical releases and love Star Wars, but I didn't make time for the lore. I played trading card games

[01:53:22] and recently a fantastic game called Star Wars Unlimited was released and it's very fun and very good. That's interesting. I've been eyeing that one. I just don't want to spend money on another game. Yeah. I was just talking to someone else who was playing it.

[01:53:36] Anyhow, this game got me to become intrigued with the lore again and catch up on all that I've missed. So I started watching Rebels and it's fantastic, but there is still so much more what's next. How do I catch up? Well, your coverage has helped immensely with that.

[01:53:50] Your timeline podcast and your lore dumps on the Acolyte coverage provide a very thorough and concise way for me to consume lore and catch up with the Star Wars universe. But most importantly, it really fills out my understanding of the Acolyte episodes themselves.

[01:54:07] Knowing the lore behind factions, races, time periods and whatever really, really helps it all come together. So please don't stop for all the podcasts I listen to that are a supplement to a TV series are for that purpose, to fill in gaps that I may have missed

[01:54:22] and to simply better understand the content. A bit of a ramble, but I simply wanted to express that the lore dumps help me enjoy and understand the show more and are important to me as a fan of Star Wars in general.

[01:54:34] I am with the lore hounds for lore, it's quite simple. And you are doing a fantastic job with all of your coverage since it began. Keep it up. Hoping I can record my Wookie call at some point for you. Yay! Did you ever see...

[01:54:49] I might have brought this up on a previous podcast, but did you ever see that whole thing where like this guy was mad at his ex-wife after a contentious divorce? You told me that, yeah. Okay. I think that's so funny. But for anyone who didn't hear the story,

[01:55:02] he got a bunch of people to call her and Wookie sound at her. No, he put up posters that said, please call my phone and do your best Wookie impression. I really want to hear it. Which, look, don't do that, don't do that,

[01:55:14] but also it's hilarious in hindsight. It is funny. Alright. Well, so yeah, thank you, Chris. Well, I thought, John, that you'd be excited about that. I'm pretty sure you're probably the one who talked Chris into watching Rebels. Oh, Rebels? I'm a Rebel stan, I actually think.

[01:55:33] I think that the consistent good episodes of Rebels are stronger than the Clone Wars. I think the Clone Wars highs are really high, but its lows are real low. And Rebels doesn't have that low. I think it's a really, really solid show from start to finish.

[01:55:49] Yeah, that's true. Everyone should watch it if they haven't yet. Yep. Bango 31 says, listening to episode five podcast and the chat about including some more High Republic content, please do. I've only read the adult novels, which I'm not particularly impressed by

[01:56:05] and I still feel like I don't know what the fuck is happening in the timeline. Yeah, the adult novel, you really got to read the YA novels at least because it's really incomplete. I don't know why they have them on a separate track.

[01:56:16] They really should just all be included in the main track. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people don't want to read the junior novels because, and I was the same way, because they call junior novels. So I'm like, well, I'm too old for that.

[01:56:29] But then actually some of the junior reading has been like the myths that I talk about in my canon, myths of ancient Batuu episode that just came out right before this. Those are technically junior myths, like, you know, junior-aged myths, but they're just lovely little stories, actually.

[01:56:48] It doesn't feel like a kid thing. They're all child books. That's different. Nice. Bango 31 says, wait, no, I just read that one. Yeah. It's been a long day, guys. Already. Last one. Rita Reborn says, I don't think it has to do with casual versus hardcore at all.

[01:57:07] I think part of the appeal of the accolade is that it's disconnected from the Skywalker saga. The you know who extremist haters aside, that's probably the biggest reason some good faith fans aren't fucking with it. Swinging it back around to the podcast

[01:57:23] that disconnects from the future of the timeline I think is refreshing in the same way I think the accolade is refreshing. Every other podcast, even the good ones, spent a bunch of time talking about Anakin and the prophecy after episode three, for instance.

[01:57:37] Instead, you kept the focus tight. In short, what you were doing is amazing and unique and please don't change. There you go. Listen, this is... This is you and I talked after we got that first email. Right. For me, I'm like, you have to just be unapologetic

[01:57:54] with the podcast you want to make. Because if you start changing based on every review, it's just going to be a problem. If there's legitimate critique and you want to take some of that into account, sure. But tweak it, don't change it. Right. Right.

[01:58:09] That's why I think it's like I keep saying it's the balance. The power of many. But it is the balance of the different opinions where we find the happy place. And if... So we had one person who complained it's not enough, Laura,

[01:58:24] but I don't think that's really what they meant. Although that is what people who look for the feed are going to see first. Right. But I think for the most part, it seems like... And someone else who complained about Laura being too much

[01:58:37] and then it seems like other people are like, no, this is a happy medium, this is what I'm looking for. And since it's what I was looking to do, because what it's like... Like I said, I think of myself as the first listener

[01:58:48] because if I'm not making it for myself as a listener, then who am I targeting? So yeah, just trying to find the happy medium between that and I appreciate everyone's patience and being willing to go along the journey and find their fun in it with...

[01:59:04] I liked hearing someone likes to quiz themselves about... Yeah. Oh, what are they talking about? Yeah. Yeah. So I mentioned already that on the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast feed, just before this, a day before this in the public feed,

[01:59:22] I released a new episode, but I backdated it to May. So this is the beginning of my backdating experiment. So I know how that's going to show up in some podcatchers, but not in others, so I'd love to hear if that popped up with a notification for people

[01:59:38] if you're a subscriber to that feed or how that works. But you might have to scroll back to, toward the beginning of the overall podcast list because this is a... It's ancient myths. It's set at the very, very beginning of the timeline. And yeah, in addition,

[01:59:55] in my Canon Ancient Myths of Planet Batuu, there are updates on the Dawn of the Jedi film and there's our first mailbag episode with Bob showing back up to talk, share some of his spoiler-free acolyte thoughts too. And also, while I was doing research for this episode,

[02:00:11] I found more about the nature of the Force, which is something some people have been asking about. So I do a little dive into how that's been talked about in various, especially books at the end. Yeah. Cool. And then on the rest of Discord,

[02:00:27] you guys are deep in it with Hot D, so now you're doing what? Three Hot D episodes a week? Yeah, it's kind of stupid, but it's fun. It's good. It's good content. We're doing our Hot Takes Sunday night. We're doing the main...

[02:00:41] And the Hot Takes are Patreon and Supercast exclusive. We're doing the main coverage, which was like two and a half hours this week, and then another hour and a half feedback episode just released. Yeah. Wow. Cool. Do it a lot.

[02:00:57] Yeah. All the way in on House of the Dragon, but I think most of the audiences too, so... Yeah. Yeah. And of course, Second Breakfast, we just released that. Two and a half hours on that one too for Hotel Breakfast. And also a new form of raw dogging.

[02:01:14] It's not what you think, I promise. It's safe for work-ish. I mean, yeah. And then we also just filmed, like we said right before this, our new 11zs where we do... I filmed it, recorded it, whatever. We put it on the electronic.

[02:01:33] I didn't brush my hair yet today. Yeah, we recorded it about the Fifth Element. It's our new monthly extra movie breakdown for subscribers. So that was fun. It was fun. I love that movie. You were okay. David was meh.

[02:01:49] Yeah, we definitely had the Goldilocks treatment on that podcast, but that's okay. That's all right. Yeah, and we've got... Rings and Rituals is wrapping up. They're getting toward the end of the season one recap. Oh, they finished season one. Oh, they finished season one.

[02:02:03] Oh, I haven't listened to the last episode yet. I'm going to be on next week. I have to edit it still, but I'm gonna be on with Marilyn next week talking about the music of season one. And then I know they're gonna have a feedback episode.

[02:02:14] So you still have a little time to get in the feedback. Go write it into ringsandrituals at floorhounds.com. Okay. And then Radioactive Ramblings is also doing The Boys. They are doing season four, episode five this week.

[02:02:27] Other than that, I think that's it for our affiliates right now. Everybody else is on a break, including you on Will Shift Us. Yes. Yeah, there's still definitely, if you haven't yet, check out that interview with Glamozaro because that was just really interesting

[02:02:39] even if you didn't watch Beacon 23. But we're going to be back soon there with Dune coverage. Nice. Soon as I'm a little less overwhelmed with the accolade. Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, thank you all for joining us for this breakdown of episode six.

[02:02:58] Can't wait to come back with episode seven. Are we putting our money on free will or choice for the title? Um, I hope it's free will. I feel like that's more interesting of a title. Right. Well, it's their choice or is it... I guess it's predetermined.

[02:03:14] We'll find out next week. See you all then. Bye. Okay, David, this is where we're supposed to choose a side, green or black? John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life. So we're not fighting?

[02:03:58] I thought this is where HBO wanted us to pick sides and fight and stuff. Don't worry, I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod. But we seem to agree on one thing. We both really like this show. The politics, the drama, the lore.

[02:04:11] It was made for the lore hounds. And since we just finished recapping season one, we couldn't be more ready to defend our black queen in the Dance of the Dragons. And with the season pass option in Supercast, listeners can get early ad-free access

[02:04:24] to each weekly scene by scene deep dive plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections. See you in the lore hounds podcast feed each week for our Dragonfire Hot, but probably positive, takes. The lore hounds house of the dragon coverage

[02:04:39] is also safe for team green consumption. Side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore, a hardened conflict with itself, and an inescapable urge to read the book Fire and Blood by George R.R. Martin. Dragon seeds may experience burning.