Anthony and Steve combine three podcasts into one to review the Hedge Knight. This podcast covers the book content on which the first season of HBO's Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is based. Spoilers abound, so beware.
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00:20 --> 00:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Hello, properly Howard fans, Steve and I are going to be doing something a little different we're going to cover each wheel maxes, night to the seven kingdoms, which begins January 18.
00:30 --> 00:35 [SPEAKER_01]: This podcast covers the book content on which the first season is based.
00:36 --> 00:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So spoilers ahead, if you've not read the hedge night, you might want to avoid this podcast.
00:42 --> 00:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Now at Seven Kingdoms is based on Martin's first novella of the Dunkin Egg series published in 1998.
00:49 --> 00:57 [SPEAKER_01]: This story takes place about a hundred years before Ned Stark and it is kind of a good night and a sea of morally gray story.
00:58 --> 01:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So it doesn't have the darkness of a house of the dragon.
01:00 --> 01:04 [SPEAKER_01]: This novella is a little bit like Ari and the Hound.
01:04 --> 01:07 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you liked Ari and the Hound on the road, you'd probably like this.
01:07 --> 01:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I own the Bantam Hardback, which collects three novellas together.
01:11 --> 01:17 [SPEAKER_01]: That is called Night of the Seven Kingdoms, which is what the HBO series is calling itself.
01:17 --> 01:21 [SPEAKER_01]: The first novella, and that is what I'm covering today here with Steve.
01:21 --> 01:22 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a hundred or so pages long.
01:23 --> 01:24 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very accessible read.
01:25 --> 01:28 [SPEAKER_01]: This is Steve's first encounter with George R. Martin's writing.
01:28 --> 01:31 [SPEAKER_01]: He quite liked the story, quite like the characterization.
01:31 --> 01:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I would highly recommend this.
01:33 --> 01:38 [SPEAKER_01]: This recording collects three different podcasts.
01:38 --> 01:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Steven I recorded over at electric buccaloo where I cover the song of Ice and Fire chapter by chapter.
01:45 --> 01:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I have collected an abridged version of those three podcasts and put them all together
01:50 --> 02:18 [SPEAKER_01]: in this single podcast that you have here just one more word of warning spoilers ahead for the first season of a night of the seven kingdoms on HBO without further ado here is stand-up comic Steve Osborne Steve would you say that your favorite night is the dark night perhaps the night guess I haven't I don't know lance a lot well enough
02:19 --> 02:23 [SPEAKER_01]: If you think Lancelot might be in the running, if you knew more about him.
02:23 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
02:24 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
02:24 --> 02:29 [SPEAKER_07]: I feel like Lancelot earned it.
02:30 --> 02:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a bad association with Lancelot because Richard gear played him in a movie.
02:37 --> 02:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't like Richard gear.
02:38 --> 02:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, hate Richard gear so much.
02:41 --> 02:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Really?
02:42 --> 02:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
02:43 --> 02:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Not a fan.
02:44 --> 02:46 [SPEAKER_00]: If there is any honor in you.
02:48 --> 02:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Promise me never to do that again.
02:53 --> 02:54 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know about Anna.
02:58 --> 03:02 [SPEAKER_04]: But I promise you, I won't kiss you again till you ask me to.
03:03 --> 03:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And that I never will.
03:04 --> 03:09 [SPEAKER_07]: What I think is, I don't know, I don't know many people with strong opinions about Richard and years.
03:09 --> 03:09 [SPEAKER_07]: So I think,
03:10 --> 03:12 [SPEAKER_07]: we should just talk about this instead of anything else.
03:12 --> 03:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, all right.
03:14 --> 03:15 [SPEAKER_01]: What is your association?
03:15 --> 03:20 [SPEAKER_01]: It was the first thing you think of when I say the word Jerbal.
03:22 --> 03:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, yeah, it's, I don't believe that story.
03:27 --> 03:36 [SPEAKER_01]: So when I was in, let me just paint a picture for our listeners, when I was in sixth grade,
03:37 --> 03:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I heard someone on the playground say that Richard gear puts jibbles up his backside.
03:46 --> 03:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
03:46 --> 03:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, at that point, I did not know what a jibble was.
03:50 --> 03:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I did not know who Richard gear was.
03:52 --> 03:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And I did not know that anyone would want to put anything up their backside.
03:57 --> 04:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So this was sort of a lot of new information for me to take in.
04:02 --> 04:07 [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, for me, whenever I hear the word, I don't even know if I've seen a durable in real life.
04:07 --> 04:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I've never seen a durable on like a nature documentary.
04:10 --> 04:16 [SPEAKER_01]: My only association with jibbles is with Richard Geer, who played the answer a lot.
04:18 --> 04:22 [SPEAKER_07]: So, it's crazy to me that there's this story.
04:22 --> 04:26 [SPEAKER_07]: It's so like, I mean, this is like, what is this?
04:26 --> 04:28 [SPEAKER_07]: What would you classify this?
04:28 --> 04:30 [SPEAKER_07]: This is sort of the lore or urban legend.
04:31 --> 04:31 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, urban legend.
04:32 --> 04:42 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I mean, it's like so much so that like I mean you could probably do a word association with Richard gear and get durable like almost probably like nine times out of ten
04:43 --> 05:11 [SPEAKER_01]: uh... way more right last year bull absolutely always brings me to richard gear richard gear does not always bring me to durable but those are stint i think culturally those two are ideas are linked do you think that this are in legend did more for richard gears popularity or jirbles oh jirbles for sure i think uh... this put them on the map really actually have stars were kind of running the show but then
05:11 --> 05:29 [SPEAKER_07]: but so jibbles are kind of like not only do we go oh they're like hamsters but apparently better burrowers yeah i don't or gentler burrowers gentler burrowers i do not want to besmirch the jibble community
05:29 --> 05:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I don't think that this is true.
05:32 --> 05:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, in retrospect, I don't know how you come up with a rumor like that, but where there's smoke, there's jibbles.
05:40 --> 05:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, I don't have any good reason.
05:42 --> 05:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have any good reason to think that this rumor is true.
05:47 --> 05:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet it does show you kind of the power of the oral legend.
05:53 --> 05:53 [SPEAKER_01]: true.
05:54 --> 06:01 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like once you put that evocative image in someone's mind, it's never leaving.
06:01 --> 06:02 [SPEAKER_01]: It's always going to be there.
06:04 --> 06:07 [SPEAKER_07]: It's wild that it, I don't do you think it hurt as career?
06:07 --> 06:08 [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think it did.
06:08 --> 06:11 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I think I don't hurt as career.
06:11 --> 06:15 [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think that there were like, I'm one of those like studios.
06:15 --> 06:20 [SPEAKER_07]: They're like, well, I really love to
06:21 --> 06:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's not like he hadn't done American jiggle though.
06:24 --> 06:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he wasn't like synonymous with like a boy scout.
06:28 --> 06:31 [SPEAKER_01]: He had played some interesting characters.
06:32 --> 06:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, morally gray characters wasn't he didn't play King David.
06:38 --> 06:44 [SPEAKER_01]: He did also play King David and I have an image of him jerking about as if he is dancing.
06:45 --> 06:52 [SPEAKER_07]: And that didn't help my impression, to you think that that's when the insertion happened.
06:52 --> 06:53 [SPEAKER_07]: It's possible.
06:53 --> 06:54 [SPEAKER_07]: It's possible.
06:54 --> 06:55 [SPEAKER_07]: He's a very method.
06:56 --> 07:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Just to make sure, if you thought maybe you're listening to the wrong podcast, this is going to be a book review of the novella The Hedge Knight.
07:07 --> 07:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, well, I didn't know where we were going.
07:11 --> 07:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought I was going to lure you in with Batman, but I don't know.
07:15 --> 07:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Somehow we got on to Richard Geer and his uh, Proclivities.
07:19 --> 07:20 [SPEAKER_07]: Life finds a way.
07:21 --> 07:25 [SPEAKER_07]: So I, I wonder though, because I don't think we want to, I think we have like a couple minutes left.
07:26 --> 07:37 [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, I wonder if, um, if it's, if it was like all started with like maybe somebody trying to explain like phonics.
07:37 --> 07:40 [SPEAKER_07]: with the hard E year sound for richer years.
07:40 --> 07:52 [SPEAKER_07]: But for durable, it creates a J and a softer E sound, showing that look these two, like they were just using that example and they said, but it all depends on what happens on the back end of the word.
07:53 --> 08:00 [SPEAKER_07]: And then that sort of gets translated to, oh yeah, there was a durable in richer years back and here we are.
08:00 --> 08:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this all started as a Gallagher bit.
08:05 --> 08:05 [SPEAKER_01]: You're kidding.
08:09 --> 08:29 [SPEAKER_07]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
08:31 --> 08:54 [SPEAKER_01]: uh... this is and then that's why he became homophobic and raised so so yeah i know this is this is a story that sort of set in a medieval setting you and i interpreted that by let's talk about eighties pop culture for ten minutes yeah which is you know something that we do often Steve uh... you
08:55 --> 08:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Dark Knight, yeah, I like the Dark Knight.
08:56 --> 08:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you like the Dark Knight.
08:57 --> 08:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, good.
08:58 --> 09:00 [SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
09:01 --> 09:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to pause this because my son is pounding something.
09:05 --> 09:06 [SPEAKER_07]: Can you hear the pounding?
09:07 --> 09:08 [SPEAKER_07]: I can't hear the pounding.
09:08 --> 09:10 [SPEAKER_07]: I'll live through the pounding then.
09:15 --> 09:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, why did you think you could stand a little bit further away from the wall all you do that?
09:21 --> 09:24 [SPEAKER_07]: The walls part of my process.
09:26 --> 09:27 [SPEAKER_07]: I'll live through the pounding.
09:28 --> 09:31 [SPEAKER_07]: I believe was the subtitle for Shawshank Redemption.
09:34 --> 09:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha
09:50 --> 09:53 [SPEAKER_07]: I fell asleep at page 16.
09:53 --> 09:54 [SPEAKER_07]: It was not the book.
09:54 --> 09:56 [SPEAKER_07]: It was just the context.
09:56 --> 09:57 [SPEAKER_07]: I was sitting in the couch.
09:57 --> 09:57 [SPEAKER_07]: It was very comfortable.
09:57 --> 10:03 [SPEAKER_07]: I had a bunch of dogs on me and I was a little tired.
10:04 --> 10:05 [SPEAKER_07]: So I fell asleep.
10:05 --> 10:05 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
10:06 --> 10:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Now is that mean that we're going to discuss the book up until page 16?
10:12 --> 10:13 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
10:13 --> 10:16 [SPEAKER_07]: I've read the rest of the, okay, all right.
10:16 --> 10:24 [SPEAKER_07]: I fact they only back in and re-read page 16 to make sure that in case I was dozing in such a way that I missed anything.
10:24 --> 10:25 [SPEAKER_07]: I would read this.
10:25 --> 10:28 [SPEAKER_07]: In fact, actually, I think I had actually made it to page 18, but I started that.
10:28 --> 10:29 [SPEAKER_01]: That's good.
10:30 --> 10:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Because my synopsis covers the first 40 pages.
10:34 --> 10:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go ahead and read it.
10:36 --> 10:36 [SPEAKER_01]: That's good.
10:37 --> 10:38 [SPEAKER_01]: So here's my synopsis.
10:40 --> 10:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Dunkberry's his old master and goes for a meal.
10:43 --> 10:50 [SPEAKER_01]: At the end, a bald naked boy messes with him and messes with his horse and then asks to become a squire.
10:50 --> 10:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Dunker fuses travels to Ashford to buy armor and then encounters the boy again, who is stalking him at his campsite.
11:00 --> 11:04 [SPEAKER_01]: He decides to take egg into his care temporarily.
11:04 --> 11:09 [SPEAKER_01]: The next day, he enters the list, sells his horse for coin.
11:09 --> 11:13 [SPEAKER_01]: go pay for the armor, and then dismisses the phosphate cousins.
11:15 --> 11:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Dunk is warned by Raymond about his cousin Stephens underhanded ways.
11:24 --> 11:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Was there anything that you especially wanted to talk about or should I just start using you as a sounding board for this?
11:31 --> 11:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Is this Mandalorian?
11:34 --> 11:37 [SPEAKER_01]: It has a little bit
11:38 --> 11:39 [SPEAKER_01]: feel to it.
11:39 --> 11:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
11:39 --> 11:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I've often said, like, if you like Ari and the Hound, you'll probably like this.
11:46 --> 11:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Dunk is a big dumb guy.
11:48 --> 11:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I like that's that's my impression.
11:51 --> 11:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So I was going to ask you that.
11:52 --> 11:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think I think in general, we want our heroes not to be dumb.
11:58 --> 11:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
11:58 --> 12:14 [SPEAKER_01]: But for some reason, I feel like it works in this case, and I'm wondering why I like it like if like my cement was just lany, killing it was just lany killing all the rabbits and what's gross.
12:14 --> 12:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I find dunk likeable.
12:17 --> 12:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, he's not that bright, and so I'm wondering why am I rooting for him?
12:22 --> 12:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you feel like you, uh, you like dunk?
12:26 --> 12:28 [SPEAKER_07]: I don't, I don't know yet, right?
12:28 --> 12:41 [SPEAKER_07]: So I think it's, uh, the, I mean, obviously, uh, Martin makes it very clear just in the way that we, we see him or present him, like, and how it's just being structured that dunk is our got.
12:41 --> 12:47 [SPEAKER_07]: Now, I don't know enough about dunk to know, like, well, what will his, um,
12:48 --> 12:56 [SPEAKER_07]: maybe crude ways create problems that maybe make him problematic down the road.
12:56 --> 13:05 [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know, there's nothing that necessarily tells me that his motivations are like pure of hard or what it just feels like I'm dumb, big.
13:06 --> 13:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe that's enough.
13:09 --> 13:10 [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe that's enough.
13:10 --> 13:14 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I need to find things where dumb,
13:14 --> 13:18 [SPEAKER_07]: Um, is there have been pages as opposed to, uh, a problem, right?
13:18 --> 13:21 [SPEAKER_07]: And so, so I'm, I'm interested.
13:21 --> 13:24 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, there's nothing about dunk that's, that's off-putting.
13:24 --> 13:28 [SPEAKER_07]: I wouldn't necessarily say that I like dunk, but I, um, if you, you're, the way you present it, hey, here's a big dumb guy, uh, trying his best.
13:28 --> 13:35 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, I, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's,
13:35 --> 13:39 [SPEAKER_07]: That's enough, that's all, all right.
13:39 --> 13:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that's good, I think that I was recently talking with A-Ron about this story, and he made the claim that Dunk is just sort of a morally upright character in this world of immorality or something like that.
14:01 --> 14:04 [SPEAKER_07]: And is he morally upright or does he just not know any better?
14:06 --> 14:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
14:06 --> 14:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
14:07 --> 14:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think I need to question the morally upright part of it, but it really would take kind of reading between the lines on a particular issue that's kind of fundamental to his character.
14:21 --> 14:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to run an idea past you.
14:25 --> 14:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess I guess I'll just read it.
14:29 --> 14:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Plummer Purses lips, my Lord's turn is a contest for knights, are you a knight?
14:36 --> 14:38 [SPEAKER_01]: He nodded, wondering if his ears were red.
14:39 --> 14:41 [SPEAKER_01]: A knight with a name, perhaps?
14:41 --> 14:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Dunk.
14:42 --> 14:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Why had he said that?
14:44 --> 14:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Sir Duncan, the tall, and where might you be from, Sir Duncan, the tall?
14:49 --> 14:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Every place I was a squider, Sir Arlin of Penetri, since I was five or six, this is a shield, he showed it to the steward.
14:56 --> 14:59 [SPEAKER_01]: He was coming to the attorney, but he kind of chill and died.
14:59 --> 15:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I came in his stead.
15:01 --> 15:05 [SPEAKER_01]: He nighted me before he passed with his own sword.
15:05 --> 15:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Dunk drew the long sword and laid it on this scarred wooden table between them.
15:12 --> 15:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Is Dunk Line?
15:15 --> 15:21 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, okay, so that's, that's my question is, and I, we didn't experience this happening, right?
15:22 --> 15:24 [SPEAKER_01]: So we saw him digging a grave.
15:24 --> 15:27 [SPEAKER_01]: It should be given to him digging a grave.
15:27 --> 15:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
15:28 --> 15:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So we know that parts true.
15:31 --> 15:44 [SPEAKER_01]: It's possible that he was going to come enter the turnee, but we also know that Sir Arlin Penitri had kind of stopped entering turnies, tournaments, dunk thinks it's because he's older.
15:45 --> 15:48 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I don't believe that that he was going to the tournament.
15:49 --> 15:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he may not have been going to the tournament.
15:51 --> 15:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, that part is suspicious.
15:53 --> 16:02 [SPEAKER_01]: The part that's kind of crucial to this is, did he night dunk before he died or did he just die?
16:02 --> 16:02 [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
16:03 --> 16:05 [SPEAKER_07]: Like maybe it was like intended.
16:06 --> 16:07 [SPEAKER_07]: and then he died too soon.
16:07 --> 16:10 [SPEAKER_07]: So, yes, sort of goes yada yada yada.
16:10 --> 16:10 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm a night.
16:11 --> 16:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because early.
16:12 --> 16:13 [SPEAKER_07]: That's kind of how I took it.
16:13 --> 16:14 [SPEAKER_07]: That's kind of how I read it.
16:15 --> 16:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, yeah.
16:16 --> 16:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm viewing that as well.
16:17 --> 16:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think fundamentally he's a big dumb guy and you want to think of him as sort of this white knight kind of character.
16:27 --> 16:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet he kind of comes onto the scene with a lie.
16:34 --> 16:36 [SPEAKER_01]: that's, you know, a lie about who he is.
16:37 --> 16:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think, early on, it's like, he buries the dude.
16:42 --> 16:44 [SPEAKER_01]: He thinks, well, what could I do next?
16:44 --> 16:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess I could go become a squire for someone else.
16:47 --> 16:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Picks up the sordans as well.
16:49 --> 16:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, the sword feels pretty kind of good in my hand.
16:51 --> 16:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I'll go into a tournament.
16:53 --> 16:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
16:54 --> 16:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that that's the moment that he thinks, well, maybe he'll just be a night.
17:00 --> 17:01 [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
17:01 --> 17:03 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I agree.
17:03 --> 17:16 [SPEAKER_07]: So then, obviously, there's more to discuss there, because that's why I wouldn't put the morally upright, but I would suggest that there's a couple of things going on.
17:17 --> 17:33 [SPEAKER_07]: One is kind of exposing the rights of passage or some of these ways you can either reach nobility or reach something other than just whatever your station is.
17:33 --> 17:36 [SPEAKER_07]: can kind of just be made up.
17:37 --> 17:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's just kind of invent it.
17:40 --> 17:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It's sort of manifested, right?
17:41 --> 17:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's sort of like exposes like, there are cultural myths that are important to keep in the culture going.
17:50 --> 17:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And what a good conner's does is a good carnivorous is like, well, people want to believe these myths.
17:58 --> 18:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just going to tweak the myth this way or that way.
18:04 --> 18:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, place lie here and there and I'll get what I want.
18:07 --> 18:12 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, and also, and just the way that these things are structured to keep accountability in place.
18:12 --> 18:16 [SPEAKER_07]: So he comes in and he says, well, I was knighted.
18:17 --> 18:19 [SPEAKER_07]: And like, what are you saying?
18:19 --> 18:22 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, okay, we'll go get a voucher or something, right?
18:22 --> 18:30 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, in my mind, I'm thinking, boy, being knighted just seems like a pretty big deal and what he even says, well, typically,
18:30 --> 18:37 [SPEAKER_07]: You know, the accepting involve there be this little more ceremony is it's like, however, you can also do it this way.
18:37 --> 18:49 [SPEAKER_07]: So who's the right, you know, and so in a way it's like, so you could look at him as like, okay, forget them the morally upright stance part of them, but he is upsetting maybe an antiquated.
18:50 --> 19:16 [SPEAKER_07]: uh... system you know whether that's good or that's bad maybe maybe that in another self become something that could show that a version of him is like maybe maybe he's uh... maybe the fact that he's challenging this kind of thing maybe there's some implied nobility there but again also could be i just i'm lying so that i can get what i want so yeah it could be that and maybe this is martens point it's like you know nighthood's kind of a myth
19:17 --> 19:46 [SPEAKER_01]: you know what what is nighthood someone said some words you took an oath and now you were armor and write a horse you're playing make believe in that way sure uh... and dunks like well do i've been right around with a night my whole life uh... i can't know what i'm doing if i just tell people i'm a night who are they to say i'm not right and on top of that i'm kind of bigger than anyone else so
19:46 --> 19:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Ringo Starr is a night that helps put some respect on that name.
19:55 --> 19:59 [SPEAKER_02]: It's sir, Ringo Starr.
19:59 --> 20:06 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, yeah, so I mean, there is something to be said for like, it can be a real, you know, I'm going to the same way.
20:06 --> 20:08 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, people become, become honorary doctors, right?
20:08 --> 20:10 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like, dude, you're so funny all the time.
20:12 --> 20:14 [SPEAKER_07]: You went to school here for a minute, you're a doctor now.
20:15 --> 20:36 [SPEAKER_01]: uh... i i try to put in ringo star into wikipedia uh... his real name is uh... ritchard starkey uh... so better than ringo's down if it was dick starkey ooh how about dicky starkey starke dickerson
20:38 --> 20:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Sir, Stark, Stark, Stark.
20:40 --> 20:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to see whether he was knighted under the fake name or not, but I don't think that they allow that.
20:47 --> 20:50 [SPEAKER_01]: He was knighted Sir Richard Starky.
20:50 --> 20:59 [SPEAKER_07]: So for me to insist that you call him Sir Ringo, is actually to to to to to denigrate the title.
20:59 --> 21:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, as I apologize to all the the real world knights.
21:07 --> 21:22 [SPEAKER_07]: So it's not surreal, and John, people say, surreal, and John, it's not like it's like something pretty, like, like, like, like, like, like, regional or something like that, um, you're going to love this.
21:23 --> 21:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, regional to Kenneth Dwight, like that, but he was knighted under Elton Harkili's John, so.
21:33 --> 21:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So they ignited the fake name.
21:35 --> 21:39 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the example we want, right?
21:39 --> 21:41 [SPEAKER_01]: You this guy's fake anyway.
21:41 --> 21:43 [SPEAKER_01]: He's just invented his own name.
21:43 --> 21:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And the British crown basically just endorsed the fakeness.
21:48 --> 21:51 [SPEAKER_07]: Can we talk about the fact that Elm John's fake middle name is Hercules?
21:51 --> 22:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
22:03 --> 22:12 [SPEAKER_07]: I would love to see all the post that notes scattered around where he was like trying to combine like the best thing at one point was it was hercules, you know, just hercules john.
22:12 --> 22:16 [SPEAKER_07]: Let's hide the hercules.
22:17 --> 22:19 [SPEAKER_07]: Meanwhile, John Cougar, Melanchamps, like.
22:23 --> 22:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's fantastic.
22:26 --> 22:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is actually, I think it was relevant.
22:28 --> 22:31 [SPEAKER_01]: This conversation was actually relevant to our discussion.
22:31 --> 22:32 [SPEAKER_01]: You keep telling yourself that.
22:33 --> 22:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I know.
22:33 --> 22:37 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the lie that I keep telling myself.
22:39 --> 22:42 [SPEAKER_01]: After this exchange, he's talking to himself.
22:44 --> 22:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And he says, and what am I, dunk a flea bottom or a certain dunk in the tall?
22:50 --> 22:53 [SPEAKER_01]: he's supposed he would learn the truth about soon enough.
22:53 --> 22:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a question of identity here.
22:56 --> 23:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that's kind of a, you know, it's an interesting way to begin a story to, you know, create complexity and a character, you know, we're watching severance now.
23:07 --> 23:10 [SPEAKER_01]: The very first line of the very first episode is who are you?
23:12 --> 23:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we have a sort of duality and sweat personality and you know, characters that are have to decide
23:21 --> 23:23 [SPEAKER_01]: which identity they're going to embrace in the end.
23:24 --> 23:26 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, which version of you are you right now?
23:26 --> 23:27 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
23:27 --> 23:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So, Dunk has to decide, like, am I even Dunkin?
23:31 --> 23:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, at one point, Egg says, you know, Dunk is a stupid name.
23:36 --> 23:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it short for Dunkin?
23:39 --> 23:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And he has to think about it.
23:41 --> 23:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, well, maybe it is.
23:42 --> 23:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he starts acting as if it is.
23:46 --> 23:49 [SPEAKER_01]: So he's kind of inventing himself as he goes.
23:50 --> 23:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And you could look at it one way like, hey, you could be anything you want to be, or you could look at it like, maybe our identity is just fiction.
23:58 --> 24:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's just a fiction you start to believe about yourself.
24:01 --> 24:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, I mean, it's maybe your middle name really is Hercules.
24:04 --> 24:05 [SPEAKER_07]: The you, you are.
24:06 --> 24:15 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I mean, it's a he's, so that's the thing is about what is, what is he going to become versus what he is?
24:15 --> 24:29 [SPEAKER_07]: And so it's like, okay, well, maybe in a world of scoundrels and scandals and all this other stuff like that, but maybe he just doesn't know yet, you know, he doesn't he doesn't know, like people say, well, he doesn't know any better, well, maybe he doesn't know any worse.
24:30 --> 24:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think he's maybe 17 or something like that's not really sure how old he really is, right, but that's kind of the age when you kind of just start trying things on for size totally like maybe I like golf.
24:43 --> 24:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start dressing that way.
24:47 --> 24:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And here he is.
24:48 --> 24:50 [SPEAKER_01]: He's, he's deciding, am I a squire?
24:50 --> 24:52 [SPEAKER_01]: No, maybe I'm a knight.
24:53 --> 24:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I'll just start dressing like a knight.
24:54 --> 24:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And people, you know, start calling me surre.
24:57 --> 24:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's all you kind of need in the end.
24:59 --> 25:02 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, like I mean, then maybe instead of putting this durable in a cage.
25:05 --> 25:07 [SPEAKER_01]: There's, there's lots of things you can do with a durable.
25:08 --> 25:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Some things, no one's thought of yet.
25:13 --> 25:42 [SPEAKER_01]: uh... you've been doing stand-up comedy for fifteen years uh... i think we're going on twelve all right so twelve years was there ever a a thought like maybe i need a stage name yeah late actually uh... like yesterday yeah well now just now that you move her keeles is not yet yeah her keeles will be her keeles the short um... the uh... it was it was it was in a radio interview
25:42 --> 25:46 [SPEAKER_07]: and they and I kept on being called Osbourne and he's like, I'm really sorry, I'm really sorry.
25:46 --> 26:04 [SPEAKER_07]: I was like, you know, probably would have been easier for you if you just would have gone as Steve Osbourne, because everyone's going to say it anyway and it's probably easier to look up and all this stuff and so looking back, that's probably what I would have done would would be to take Osbourne and just, okay, Osbourne.
26:04 --> 26:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, okay, now but now you're on that slippery slope where you're like, well, if I'm
26:12 --> 26:15 [SPEAKER_07]: why don't I just change it to anything true.
26:16 --> 26:17 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I mean, I guess that you could do that, right?
26:18 --> 26:27 [SPEAKER_07]: At least I felt like for that, it was like, well, there's no people can say it, however, most of the time they're gonna say I was born anyway.
26:29 --> 26:33 [SPEAKER_07]: So it's not so like out of the ordinary, I guess.
26:36 --> 26:40 [SPEAKER_01]: At one point,
26:40 --> 26:43 [SPEAKER_01]: the introduced you a Steve Auschwitz at one point?
26:43 --> 26:50 [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, the first time I ever went up on punchline on Sunday night, like I said, what's your name on Steve Auschwitz?
26:50 --> 26:50 [SPEAKER_07]: Is it okay?
26:51 --> 26:54 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like give it a pretty calm, next time I'm exceeding the Auschwitz.
26:55 --> 26:57 [SPEAKER_07]: Crowd got predictably silent.
26:59 --> 26:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Ha ha ha.
26:59 --> 27:01 [SPEAKER_02]: They're thinking, this must be a stage name.
27:02 --> 27:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And that guy looks a little German to me.
27:05 --> 27:06 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, exactly.
27:06 --> 27:09 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, first thing I said was my name is not Auschwitz.
27:10 --> 27:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I got a laugh.
27:13 --> 27:15 [SPEAKER_07]: It got a laugh, but I got, I had to know what he's name.
27:15 --> 27:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think they laugh at you.
27:20 --> 27:24 [SPEAKER_02]: At that point, you know, you got to think like, is this going to happen every time?
27:26 --> 27:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Who is this a, is this a one-off, a mistake?
27:31 --> 27:38 [SPEAKER_07]: So, so bizarre, but your bizarre thing, this, I mean, what, what were you thinking of dog?
27:38 --> 27:40 [SPEAKER_07]: What was on your mind?
27:41 --> 27:41 [SPEAKER_01]: my gosh.
27:44 --> 28:00 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this, you know, if we're going to kind of come up with an elevator pitch for this particular portion of the book, you know, it'd be like, man needs naked boy, tries to get rid of naked boy, man window shops for a new fit.
28:01 --> 28:04 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, clothing is a very big part of this.
28:04 --> 28:09 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, that's what I kind of like about how we get into
28:10 --> 28:13 [SPEAKER_07]: I found myself without any action happening, right?
28:14 --> 28:20 [SPEAKER_07]: I found myself just a little bit anxious, you know, like, I'm so worried about his money, right?
28:20 --> 28:39 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, he had so little of it, and it's making noise, it's clanking around, and like he's trying to, he's trying to just wheel his way to a better fit, you know, and I remember when my son and I were in Vegas and we were doing some shopping at some of these,
28:40 --> 28:44 [SPEAKER_07]: You know, places we never we never actually been into these places, you know, we've seen like some of these places online.
28:45 --> 28:51 [SPEAKER_07]: They're really, you know, kind of, you know, fashionable and trendy, but we've never actually gone into a place that sold them.
28:52 --> 28:58 [SPEAKER_07]: And we were just like, you know, trying to subtly look at the price tags, you know, like that's all we're looking at, but then we were taken by it.
28:58 --> 28:59 [SPEAKER_07]: We're like, oh, this is kind of cool.
28:59 --> 29:04 [SPEAKER_07]: So the thought was, well, maybe if we went a little bit casino.
29:05 --> 29:07 [SPEAKER_07]: come back here and treat ourselves, right?
29:07 --> 29:12 [SPEAKER_07]: But like if that had been the mission, we might have approached these, but so it kind of gave me that kind of vibe, right?
29:12 --> 29:16 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like, how do I conjure this enough money to make this happen?
29:17 --> 29:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking about the time, and I was probably 19 or 20.
29:22 --> 29:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I was at a money and I never really had cared about money and I thought, you know what, if I'm gonna keep this apartment, I'm gonna need like another job.
29:31 --> 29:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, I'm old enough to have had the experience to open the newspaper, right?
29:38 --> 29:39 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm looking in the one ads.
29:40 --> 29:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And there was a very compelling ad for sales associate.
29:52 --> 29:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sales associate.
29:53 --> 29:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I asked, go do this.
29:54 --> 29:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So I had $30 to my name.
29:58 --> 30:00 [SPEAKER_01]: and I went out and bought a tie.
30:01 --> 30:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it was a nice tie.
30:04 --> 30:05 [SPEAKER_01]: This is what I'm gonna need.
30:05 --> 30:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, have a tie.
30:06 --> 30:08 [SPEAKER_01]: They want a sales associate.
30:09 --> 30:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna need a tie.
30:10 --> 30:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So I kind of like last bit of money in the world, I thought, well, this is gonna be investment.
30:16 --> 30:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna, you know, make some sales and it'll all be worth it in the end.
30:22 --> 30:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I show up and it's this whole speel
30:29 --> 30:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was just thick with slime.
30:34 --> 30:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the whole thing just felt like, you know, you're about to join a cult and I left, and I never went back and I had a tie that,
30:47 --> 30:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I ever returned.
30:48 --> 30:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I never occurred to me like to return a tie.
30:51 --> 30:52 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, right.
30:52 --> 30:54 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, because you bigger all well, it's been tied.
30:54 --> 31:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's been, I've used it that I'm not gonna take it, but I had nothing and I had given up a way everything for this stupid tie.
31:03 --> 31:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And until it's day, I apologize.
31:07 --> 31:09 [SPEAKER_01]: But you can't get the sense, like this is what Duncan's doing.
31:10 --> 31:13 [SPEAKER_01]: He's basically betting on his betting on himself.
31:15 --> 31:19 [SPEAKER_01]: He's going to trade everything he has in the world for a bit of armor.
31:20 --> 31:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's thinking if I can just win one match.
31:24 --> 31:26 [SPEAKER_07]: It's an interesting thing to put himself into right.
31:26 --> 31:28 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it's like, you bet on yourself, OK, that's fine.
31:30 --> 31:31 [SPEAKER_07]: But I guess that's always got.
31:31 --> 31:34 [SPEAKER_01]: That's all he's got, he's got three horses.
31:35 --> 31:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you don't need three horses.
31:38 --> 31:39 [SPEAKER_07]: Don't fall in love with your horses.
31:40 --> 31:45 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the other sort of the half-to-battle
31:46 --> 31:49 [SPEAKER_01]: You may have to sell one of those horses, so don't fall in love.
31:51 --> 31:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I wrote down a list of things that, that, uh, dunk things about nighthood, like, what does it mean for him to be a night?
32:00 --> 32:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, for him, it means food and all the beer he wants, uh, to be a, a night means that you have to have pride, otherwise you're a little more than a
32:14 --> 32:20 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to wash head to heel every month, and you enter a tournament for money and glory.
32:21 --> 32:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So, there was no oath spoken, if there was no actual dubbing by Sir Arlin.
32:29 --> 32:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Then basically, he is just learned about knighthood by watching this old guy and what this old guy does.
32:37 --> 32:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is his conception of knighthood at this point.
32:40 --> 32:42 [SPEAKER_07]: Right, and it's,
32:42 --> 32:47 [SPEAKER_07]: So he's seen kind of a night post, you know, post peak nighthood, right?
32:48 --> 32:56 [SPEAKER_07]: So most of it is sort of any any any ideas that he has of like what it means to be a night would be more like through tales, right?
32:57 --> 32:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
32:57 --> 32:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Sir Arlin is kind of washed.
32:59 --> 33:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
33:00 --> 33:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, his life basically consists of going from place to place and seeing which Lord will let him sit at his table.
33:09 --> 33:16 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it's like thinking you know about football because you are hanging out with Uncle Rico in the Poland Dynamite.
33:18 --> 33:22 [SPEAKER_06]: Back in 82, I used to be able to throw a picture in a quarter mile.
33:22 --> 33:23 [SPEAKER_06]: Are you serious?
33:23 --> 33:24 [SPEAKER_06]: I'm dead serious.
33:28 --> 33:29 [SPEAKER_06]: Watch this.
33:38 --> 33:41 [SPEAKER_06]: How much you want to make a bet I can throw a football over the mountains?
33:43 --> 33:46 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, coach would have put me in fourth quarter.
33:46 --> 34:04 [SPEAKER_01]: We'd have been state champions, no doubt, no doubt, no doubt, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
34:05 --> 34:06 [SPEAKER_07]: know that I should, right?
34:06 --> 34:07 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, this is its own.
34:07 --> 34:09 [SPEAKER_07]: This is kind of a stand-alone story.
34:09 --> 34:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's three of these things, but they all are contained within your book.
34:14 --> 34:14 [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
34:15 --> 34:20 [SPEAKER_07]: But I mean, it's not like that as far as we know, maybe, and maybe I'm just a dummy.
34:20 --> 34:32 [SPEAKER_07]: But this isn't this is within the world of our west rose, but it isn't necessarily like well, we will there be repercussions of this story in say game of thrones.
34:32 --> 34:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Not much.
34:33 --> 34:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think there's a couple of references.
34:35 --> 34:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I think if you looked up like, if you did a Wikipedia search for Dunkin' the Tall or something, you would see where Martin had intends to take these stories eventually.
34:49 --> 35:00 [SPEAKER_01]: But he said that he's got maybe nine ideas for stories, but he's only got three of them written and he's not writing very fast these days.
35:00 --> 35:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So it could be that these are the only thing we get, and I don't know if this is any more than, you know, it's just this particular moment of time.
35:13 --> 35:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's a little adventure story about a a little
35:18 --> 35:39 [SPEAKER_01]: it's a very accessible read would you say this is a more accessible read than than the other is other words I think so yeah I think I think this could almost work as sort of young adult fiction that's that's kind of was that what I was getting out of this was like it felt like there's a few mentions of horrors but he's true this guy's uh you know but he didn't want it
35:39 --> 35:43 [SPEAKER_01]: He's about 16, he's old enough, 16 or 17.
35:44 --> 35:51 [SPEAKER_01]: He's old enough to note that the puppeteer is quite attractive, girl still scare him.
35:52 --> 35:54 [SPEAKER_01]: These are all very young adult ideas.
35:55 --> 36:07 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I mean, right now, it seems it's the egg dynamic is interesting because it seems like egg is a little more
36:08 --> 36:27 [SPEAKER_07]: this dump right despite the age right it's like I guess it's okay so it brings up the question of perceptibility you know I you know and I'm assuming that dunk is you know seeing other folks and been in other situations but he may not be absorbing it and he may be just more observing as opposed to processing or egg maybe more of a processing.
36:28 --> 36:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think that Dunk has a good political savvy.
36:33 --> 36:38 [SPEAKER_01]: If my reading is correct, he knows well enough to lie to the right person, to get right ons.
36:40 --> 36:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's kind of memorized what the sigils of various houses mean.
36:45 --> 36:49 [SPEAKER_01]: This egg character seems to be a little bit more worldly.
36:50 --> 36:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
36:51 --> 36:57 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, maybe it's a difference between growing up as a city-kid versus growing up in the hedges, so to speak.
36:58 --> 36:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Gotcha.
36:58 --> 37:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I see that.
37:00 --> 37:12 [SPEAKER_07]: So I mean, does create for an interesting dynamic and it's, um, and I think it's important to to acknowledge the, uh, the age of dunk is in sort of like that, mid to ladder key.
37:13 --> 37:17 [SPEAKER_07]: So the age difference between him and egg isn't so stark, right?
37:17 --> 37:27 [SPEAKER_07]: It's significant in, you know, in, you know, in the regards that like 16 or 17 year olds not hanging
37:27 --> 37:29 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, it's not crazy, necessarily.
37:31 --> 37:36 [SPEAKER_01]: No, and I think it's dunks perception that he's eight years old.
37:36 --> 37:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, gotcha.
37:38 --> 37:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, I mean, it could be that he is actually years old, but it could just be he's small for his age.
37:45 --> 37:48 [SPEAKER_07]: And so, there's some sort of mystical naked man.
37:51 --> 37:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Every story should have a mystical naked man.
37:54 --> 37:56 [SPEAKER_07]: in every story, whether they mentioned one or not.
37:56 --> 37:59 [SPEAKER_07]: I like to imagine this one nearby, on call.
38:00 --> 38:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Which you know Richard gear kind of made some hay with that early on in this career.
38:08 --> 38:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Mystical naked man, notable introductions in this portion of the book.
38:13 --> 38:20 [SPEAKER_01]: We meet Donk,
38:22 --> 38:35 [SPEAKER_01]: The Elm, the shooting star of the Elm, the Fossilweight Cousin Steffin and Raymond, we arrive at Ashford Meadow and notable departures, we say goodbye to Sir Arlin.
38:36 --> 38:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Who really we never knew?
38:37 --> 38:43 [SPEAKER_01]: We barely knew you.
38:43 --> 38:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
38:43 --> 38:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you see now why I made the analogy between the story and white man he can't jump?
38:53 --> 38:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure.
38:54 --> 38:56 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, let me make my case.
38:56 --> 39:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So, tournaments are kind of like sporting events from back in the day.
39:01 --> 39:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure.
39:01 --> 39:07 [SPEAKER_01]: But in there are sort of famous athletes at these things.
39:08 --> 39:11 [SPEAKER_01]: But they're gonna fight like nobody's every now and again.
39:13 --> 39:22 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, someone can just go and enter their name into the lists and who knows you might be jousting against some big dude you never heard of.
39:22 --> 39:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's almost like the March madness right now.
39:25 --> 39:26 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a little bit like that.
39:26 --> 39:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And in addition to that, you've got to scat out your opponents.
39:32 --> 39:34 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so a little bit of information goes a long way.
39:34 --> 39:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're kind of gambling on yourself.
39:38 --> 39:44 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like you're going in thinking, if I do well, I could get rich here.
39:45 --> 39:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And if I don't do well, I'm going to have to go back and
39:49 --> 39:51 [SPEAKER_01]: tell my people that I lost all of our money.
39:52 --> 39:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I like to think of this as a sports narrative.
39:56 --> 40:01 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, this last read was very much a, I thought like a, I would watch it a montage for a chunk of it.
40:01 --> 40:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, interesting.
40:02 --> 40:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, okay.
40:04 --> 40:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I was going to call that out as a weakness.
40:07 --> 40:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I was going to, I was going to throw out a few ideas I want to talk about.
40:11 --> 40:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, one of the things I wanted to talk about is what I think is a major weakness of this particular story.
40:19 --> 40:23 [SPEAKER_01]: that is the description of the tournament.
40:24 --> 40:33 [SPEAKER_07]: I was ready to make that same assessment, but I have a different feeling about it now.
40:33 --> 40:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let me read my synopsis and then we can, maybe we'll jump right
40:43 --> 40:53 [SPEAKER_01]: After showing the egg his new armor, both night and square returned to Ashford, Dunk is dismissed by Sir Manfred, who has no interest in vouching for him.
40:53 --> 40:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Distraught and feeling that he won't be able to enter the lists.
40:57 --> 41:03 [SPEAKER_01]: He walks into the Great Hall where Baylor Targaryen, hand of the King is holding court.
41:03 --> 41:09 [SPEAKER_01]: After discussing tournaments gone by Baylor Vouches for Dunk and advises him to repaint his shield.
41:10 --> 41:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Dunk pays the puppet girl to do it and almost reveals his affection to her.
41:14 --> 41:19 [SPEAKER_01]: The next day, Dunk and Egg watched the tournament and scout the competition.
41:19 --> 41:25 [SPEAKER_01]: The day ends with Prince Aryan killing Humphrey's horse on purpose and being disqualified.
41:26 --> 41:30 [SPEAKER_01]: That night, Dunk here's that Aryan is manhandling the public girl.
41:30 --> 41:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Dunk punches the prince and kicks him in the face.
41:34 --> 41:39 [SPEAKER_01]: He is arrested, but before being de-toothed to death, egg comes to his defense.
41:40 --> 41:43 [SPEAKER_01]: The bald boy, it is revealed, is the prince's brother.
41:45 --> 41:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess at this point, we ought to call out that major spoilers for neither seven kingdoms,
41:56 --> 41:57 [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
41:57 --> 41:57 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
41:57 --> 41:59 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it's pretty early in the story.
41:59 --> 42:03 [SPEAKER_07]: So many does feel like that would be a big reveal.
42:04 --> 42:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is a sort of a major, it feels like this is maybe an episode to reveal or something, but, you know, if you're listening to this thinking, like, ah, I'll just listen to these guys, jabber on, I just, just a warning, you know what you're getting into at this point, right?
42:23 --> 42:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
42:25 --> 42:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you, when did you clock the true identity of egg?
42:33 --> 42:42 [SPEAKER_07]: who he was I just knew he was somebody right you mentioned that it's before right yeah So I didn't I'll be honest.
42:42 --> 42:43 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm still
42:44 --> 42:51 [SPEAKER_07]: This is probably my biggest West Rose deficiency is keeping up with who's who even when I'm reading it.
42:51 --> 42:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, sure.
42:52 --> 42:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And that I do want to talk about that.
42:53 --> 42:56 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, give me two Humphreys while I'm trying to figure this out.
42:56 --> 42:57 [SPEAKER_01]: No, for sure.
42:57 --> 42:58 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I get I get that.
42:59 --> 43:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And I do think this is a weakness of the book.
43:01 --> 43:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to talk about that.
43:02 --> 43:07 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think Martin does he's talked about in interviews.
43:07 --> 43:09 [SPEAKER_01]: He likes a three stage reveal.
43:09 --> 43:10 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
43:10 --> 43:15 [SPEAKER_01]: So, if he's going to drop a plot twist, he'll probably foreshadow it a couple times.
43:16 --> 43:24 [SPEAKER_01]: So, the first thing, you know, first reveal with egg is that he's got a bald head and violet eyes.
43:25 --> 43:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay.
43:26 --> 43:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think if you were like a real westernshead, like me, those violet eyes might be enough.
43:35 --> 43:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like maybe I am.
43:37 --> 43:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking, hmm.
43:38 --> 43:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder why his head shaved.
43:40 --> 43:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe he's trying to hide something.
43:42 --> 43:49 [SPEAKER_07]: If you have a shaved head and who's which line is hair like the biggest giveaway, right?
43:49 --> 43:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Martin loves hair as a sort of almost a personality or identity.
43:55 --> 43:58 [SPEAKER_07]: And spent so much time talking about hair in the cell.
43:59 --> 44:01 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, when they talk about each person, right?
44:01 --> 44:02 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, there's
44:02 --> 44:05 [SPEAKER_07]: There's another bald character, but then there's like this salt and pepper hair.
44:06 --> 44:11 [SPEAKER_01]: At some point in his childhood, Martin was bullied by a blonde-haired guy.
44:12 --> 44:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just a positive about it.
44:14 --> 44:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that would be the first reveal.
44:17 --> 44:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, there's several hints throughout the beginning of this book that one of the Targaryen boys is missing.
44:25 --> 44:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And one of, or two of the Targaryen boys are missing, and one of them is young.
44:30 --> 44:41 [SPEAKER_01]: So you've got that information, and at that point, you probably, if you were a sort of a Westeros head, you would probably clock in, right?
44:42 --> 44:54 [SPEAKER_01]: But of course, if you need it, of course, Martin's going to give you the third stage reveal, the third stage of the reveal, and then his like, a character in the story is going to say it with their mouth.
44:55 --> 44:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right?
44:57 --> 44:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
44:57 --> 45:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So your stage three I'm guessing.
45:01 --> 45:09 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I mean, I mean, I again, I was, I think it's because I was still, I mean, look, you know, as soon as the reveal happens, I'm like, Oh, look, the crumbs were there at the whole time.
45:09 --> 45:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
45:09 --> 45:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
45:10 --> 45:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that's that's good writing.
45:12 --> 45:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that you want your plot twist.
45:16 --> 45:21 [SPEAKER_01]: to make sense given all of the breadcrumbs, right?
45:21 --> 45:31 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't want it to come out of nowhere because you want to be in service to the story that you're telling, but you don't want it to be so obvious that it's like, oh, I saw that coming in my way.
45:31 --> 45:33 [SPEAKER_07]: Right, right, like a hurry up to the reveal.
45:33 --> 45:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, and I think as he's writing this in, you know, 97 or 98,
45:39 --> 45:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I think there's, you know, there's not a million people on Reddit talking about the intricacies of Westeros.
45:47 --> 45:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
45:48 --> 45:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, so I think this, this, this really would work.
45:52 --> 46:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it'll work on HBO Max once we've, like, you know, had a, had a, had a main major series and a spin-off series already.
46:02 --> 46:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you're gonna fool too many people.
46:06 --> 46:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, too many of you.
46:07 --> 46:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's true.
46:08 --> 46:14 [SPEAKER_01]: we've kind of been circling a topic and I don't often talk about Martin's weakness as a writer.
46:14 --> 46:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I think this portion of the text has a major weakness and that is, do too many names, too much, you're not just describing every color of the rainbow, you're renaming every color of
46:35 --> 46:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Like all the heraldry and, you know, the symbolism and the history of this world he's created.
46:43 --> 46:51 [SPEAKER_01]: So Master World Builder, Martin Fantastic, definitely needs an editor.
46:51 --> 46:56 [SPEAKER_01]: There was about, I don't know, five pages of this book when the tournament is being described.
46:56 --> 46:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm assuming this is what you were thinking about in terms of montage.
47:00 --> 47:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
47:00 --> 47:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Where I'm just my eyes are glazing.
47:04 --> 47:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting blurry with too many names and too many, you know, it's hard to keep up with the action when you when you have to juggle 20 different personalities.
47:18 --> 47:23 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I mean, it's lots of, I mean, yeah, and I, and that's that's the way you put it.
47:23 --> 47:25 [SPEAKER_07]: This is really apt.
47:26 --> 47:50 [SPEAKER_07]: master world builder he's built the world and I was trying to explain that world that he's built to you in a way that matters to him maybe more so than it matters exactly and he's just like he's like he's showing it off it's like if you mean to somebody you're like you go to you know you've coupled up your your wife is friends with this with this woman and she's like hey look we're gonna go visit their house just try to be cool I know you don't
47:50 --> 47:52 [SPEAKER_07]: do well when you're in these types of situations.
47:52 --> 47:54 [SPEAKER_07]: This is very autobiographical.
47:54 --> 47:59 [SPEAKER_07]: And then you meet the husband and you kind of do some small talk.
47:59 --> 48:02 [SPEAKER_07]: And then she says, hey, why don't you go show him your man cape?
48:02 --> 48:04 [SPEAKER_07]: And then you're like, oh, okay.
48:04 --> 48:05 [SPEAKER_07]: So you go to his man cape.
48:05 --> 48:06 [SPEAKER_07]: And you find it's not like a traditional man cape.
48:07 --> 48:11 [SPEAKER_07]: He's a model trained enthusiast.
48:11 --> 48:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
48:12 --> 48:14 [SPEAKER_07]: And he's got his miniatures.
48:14 --> 48:15 [SPEAKER_07]: And he just walks through everything.
48:15 --> 48:16 [SPEAKER_07]: And he's going to explain everything to you.
48:16 --> 48:20 [SPEAKER_07]: And you're like, this matters a lot to you.
48:20 --> 48:22 [SPEAKER_07]: I am impressed.
48:22 --> 48:23 [SPEAKER_07]: And that's where it ends.
48:24 --> 48:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And you make the mistake of asking a question.
48:30 --> 48:35 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, because there's a little low and so you just go, all right, well, I need to fain in gaugements.
48:35 --> 48:39 [SPEAKER_07]: So you're like, well, what is this particular banner represented?
48:39 --> 48:41 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, god, here we go.
48:43 --> 48:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, though that's for sure.
48:45 --> 48:51 [SPEAKER_02]: So sometimes my my son and I will just talk about little details of Zelda Breath of the Wild.
48:52 --> 48:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you're listening to us talk about these things, we sound crazy.
48:58 --> 49:00 [SPEAKER_01]: We sound nuts.
49:01 --> 49:07 [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, I was thinking about like a J.R. Tolkien does this with language.
49:07 --> 49:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that dude invented a number of languages
49:12 --> 49:15 [SPEAKER_01]: just to tell the story he wanted to do.
49:15 --> 49:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Like he was a philologist by trade.
49:18 --> 49:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And so he literally invented languages, which if you go to all the trouble to invent an elephant language, guess what's gonna pop up, you know?
49:32 --> 49:34 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, you kinda wanna strut a little bit too, right?
49:34 --> 49:34 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean.
49:35 --> 49:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you do wanna strut a little bit, which is fine.
49:38 --> 49:42 [SPEAKER_01]: But here's the thing about this particular story.
49:42 --> 49:49 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're going to write me 500 pages, then yes, sure.
49:49 --> 49:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm in for the epic adventure, and I'm sort of...
49:54 --> 49:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes.
49:55 --> 49:59 [SPEAKER_07]: It's not written at times with brevity in mind.
50:01 --> 50:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
50:01 --> 50:07 [SPEAKER_07]: And it does, and again, this is not, I mean, and so this isn't a suggestion, it's not a good writer.
50:07 --> 50:10 [SPEAKER_07]: But what it does suggest is that maybe this form is not
50:10 --> 50:18 [SPEAKER_07]: is not conducive to his strengths, right, because it takes a different type of story.
50:18 --> 50:20 [SPEAKER_07]: And again, like, I'm a short story guy, right?
50:20 --> 50:21 [SPEAKER_07]: And this is in the novella, it's not a short story.
50:21 --> 50:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have to say, I kind of admire it.
50:24 --> 50:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of admire that he's a kind of writer who's like, I'm writing this for me.
50:28 --> 50:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't care if you like it or not, right?
50:32 --> 50:35 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, everything he's ever done tells me.
50:35 --> 50:37 [SPEAKER_02]: He really doesn't care what I think.
50:39 --> 50:39 [SPEAKER_07]: Right?
50:39 --> 50:40 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, because sometimes you just won't finish.
50:41 --> 50:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I think at one point he said he was hearing the interview and he's like, I really appreciate my fans.
50:47 --> 50:57 [SPEAKER_01]: They've allowed me to become very rich and buy the house next to my house.
50:57 --> 51:07 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I think he is a pretty healthy view of whether or not he ought to be invested in the opinions of strangers.
51:08 --> 51:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're a couple of strangers, but again, that's a lot of information to take in.
51:14 --> 51:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm impressed with the world-building element.
51:17 --> 51:20 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I come to these stories for the world-building.
51:20 --> 51:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I love the plot twist too.
51:22 --> 51:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I love the characters or whatnot.
51:24 --> 51:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Ah man, I love a good world, a good alien world that is well-made.
51:31 --> 51:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I just think it's a really impressive feat.
51:33 --> 51:49 [SPEAKER_07]: So interesting about that, don't I think it is important to discuss, like, if you feel informed at all about these kinds of tournaments, whether it's through other readings or whether it's through something you've watched on television or movies, it's not necessarily something that it's like,
51:49 --> 51:55 [SPEAKER_07]: Wow, I've never heard this describe this way, or I've never heard of this in this detail before.
51:55 --> 52:14 [SPEAKER_07]: So part of it just kind of feels like unless any one of these specific things, and there was obviously the one specific thing with the horse incident that sort of shapes the character and it shapes, you know, sort of the next step, but you didn't have to go through all of that to get to there, right, that's the question.
52:15 --> 52:17 [SPEAKER_07]: It's all defended a little bit.
52:17 --> 52:28 [SPEAKER_07]: Um, because it is, it is a glazing moment, but I think there's something about that, that can be effective, because you're glazing it because you're kind of bringing you into this low.
52:29 --> 52:40 [SPEAKER_07]: The winding action happens when some of the things happen, they feel like when, when the, the, the horse incident happens and then slowly there's a reveal all of those things feel.
52:40 --> 52:44 [SPEAKER_07]: More, maybe even more important or more.
52:45 --> 52:46 [SPEAKER_07]: what's the word I'm looking for?
52:46 --> 52:53 [SPEAKER_07]: They's more impactful than maybe they would otherwise had the other part been, you know, truncated.
52:53 --> 53:01 [SPEAKER_07]: So I think that there may be, there may be something to sort of putting you in this trance like, even maybe a little bit,
53:03 --> 53:07 [SPEAKER_07]: frustrated or bored, you know, maybe you're a little bored.
53:07 --> 53:13 [SPEAKER_07]: And then, and so that he's wiping away from a, from a, from a, from dunks and Dunkin eggs perspective, they're just watching a match, right?
53:14 --> 53:17 [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm, we've all, I mean, I've tried to watch sports that I don't, like, I try to watch hockey.
53:18 --> 53:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
53:19 --> 53:23 [SPEAKER_07]: I can sit there and go, yeah, I understand why what they're doing is so physically impressive.
53:25 --> 53:26 [SPEAKER_07]: Can I go?
53:27 --> 53:29 [SPEAKER_07]: So it's not for me, right?
53:29 --> 53:35 [SPEAKER_07]: So even if there was a book about a really, going through a hockey mat, I'd be like, yeah, I get it.
53:35 --> 53:37 [SPEAKER_07]: So like, they're into that world, so they're watching it.
53:37 --> 53:41 [SPEAKER_07]: And so all of that matters to them, all these little details matter to them, and they don't matter to me.
53:41 --> 53:43 [SPEAKER_07]: So I'm kind of like, all right, what's the point?
53:43 --> 53:44 [SPEAKER_07]: What's the point, what's the point, what's the point?
53:44 --> 53:46 [SPEAKER_07]: And then maybe that's not the point.
53:46 --> 53:54 [SPEAKER_07]: It's that I'm in this kind of place of sort of low intention and kind of boredom and kind of waiting for the next thing, so that
53:54 --> 53:58 [SPEAKER_07]: Those next things seem maybe even more dramatic than maybe they are really are.
53:58 --> 54:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you ever, okay, maybe you're like me in this way?
54:01 --> 54:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you are.
54:02 --> 54:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you ever see the movie Miracle?
54:05 --> 54:06 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
54:06 --> 54:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, has one of your favorite actors in it.
54:10 --> 54:12 [SPEAKER_07]: Right, but it's also about hockey.
54:12 --> 54:14 [SPEAKER_07]: So it's a weird balance in it.
54:14 --> 54:14 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
54:14 --> 54:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So I lived in Canada for almost six years.
54:19 --> 54:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I really tried hard to like hockey, like I did, like I put in the effort, all right, never, never could get myself to like hockey.
54:31 --> 54:43 [SPEAKER_01]: But a sports movie about hockey can be fantastic because it's up to the storyteller to get me invested in the people involved.
54:44 --> 55:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a there's a wider political narrative there there's sort of a class element narrative and you get it an actor and you don't have to watch all the Hawke right what you just here's the thing with the sportsman you're going to show me just enough of it So that I understand what just happened Right it's a fantastic movie I think you'll like it because
55:08 --> 55:22 [SPEAKER_01]: you guys in it, but for me, it's a difference between viewing the spectacle and seeing the characterization that happens during this spectacle.
55:22 --> 55:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So during the tournament, which you could easily sort of glaze over, you find out that Egg knows a lot about these guys.
55:33 --> 55:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
55:33 --> 55:37 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, he's actually kind of a master scout at these things.
55:37 --> 55:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's a little bit, uh, just a little bit spikily, you know, you know, um, you find that the dunk actually has a, you know, he's devising strategies like, maybe I could take him down and if I could take him down, then I would have the the height and and strength.
55:55 --> 55:57 [SPEAKER_01]: to use that to my advantage.
55:57 --> 55:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So you kind of see them strategizing.
55:59 --> 56:08 [SPEAKER_01]: You also find out that little bit later on that Dunk has decided to stand with the commenters and not go sit with the Lord's and ladies.
56:09 --> 56:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
56:09 --> 56:11 [SPEAKER_01]: So that tells you something about its character.
56:11 --> 56:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, you're finding out a little something about one of the main villains of the story by the way he plays dirty.
56:18 --> 56:19 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
56:19 --> 56:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
56:19 --> 56:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So those to me, those are the most important things.
56:22 --> 56:33 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yeah, there's a big spectacle, but it was it was worth it if you can reveal characterization as you're showing me the action sequence.
56:34 --> 56:34 [SPEAKER_07]: Sure.
56:35 --> 56:48 [SPEAKER_07]: But you can also do the question is, is like, do you, would you have been better off with more action descriptors as opposed to breaks to discuss, uh, uh, the, you know, sigils isn't, I mean, I don't know, it's hard to know.
56:48 --> 56:54 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it's, it's, um, it is just, it was a, it was a part where I was like, let's go.
56:54 --> 57:05 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I for sure did, um, and, and then, but like I said, then once it breaks, that break, sort of did something to me as a reader,
57:05 --> 57:18 [SPEAKER_07]: may not have necessarily, I, there's no way I'm knowing for sure, but I don't know that it would have had the same where I would have engaged in the same way had I not kind of been looking for relief from this in a way.
57:18 --> 57:23 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, but so I found it, I found it like it could be a necessary means to an end.
57:24 --> 57:28 [SPEAKER_07]: But you do, you know, you do wonder like sometimes you watch a show.
57:28 --> 57:30 [SPEAKER_07]: I wrote a movie like a,
57:30 --> 57:38 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not comparing the quality of this book to the movie I'm about to talk about, but we was watching now the movie leprechaun in the hood.
57:38 --> 57:43 [SPEAKER_07]: And it's like an hour and a half and there's a lot.
57:43 --> 57:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Can we just pause here?
57:44 --> 57:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I just want to just let that sink in.
57:48 --> 57:52 [SPEAKER_02]: This is Steve is in midlife.
57:52 --> 57:54 [SPEAKER_02]: He sees his mortality on the horizon.
57:54 --> 57:59 [SPEAKER_02]: He decides I'm going to spend 90 minutes of my life watching leprechaun in the hood.
57:59 --> 58:01 [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm glad that you framed it in that way.
58:01 --> 58:04 [SPEAKER_07]: Because there's a lot of the time in the movie.
58:04 --> 58:07 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm like, there's not a lot of leprechaun sometimes.
58:07 --> 58:09 [SPEAKER_07]: And also not a lot of hood.
58:09 --> 58:10 [SPEAKER_07]: Like there's a long,
58:10 --> 58:13 [SPEAKER_07]: sequence in a church for no really good reason, right?
58:13 --> 58:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad that you're bringing this, because I think that most of the listeners of this podcast will be able to relate.
58:20 --> 58:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Surely they remember the, the doldrums that happened in the middle of the second one in the hood.
58:28 --> 58:35 [SPEAKER_07]: And so, yes, so I'm looking at this as I'm watching it, going, this is an hour and a half and I feel like, what are we, what are we sacrificing?
58:36 --> 58:40 [SPEAKER_02]: like to do the yeah because that you me to the leprechaun dude.
58:40 --> 58:50 [SPEAKER_07]: I feel like like the characters are not being further developed by being in this sequence and I'm not the world but it's like it's but it was necessary for them to build that part of the world.
58:50 --> 58:52 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
58:52 --> 58:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
58:53 --> 58:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I want you to know that we have a movie podcast called Properly Howard.
58:59 --> 59:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I promise that I will never watch leprechaun and but if then you won't know what happens
59:06 --> 59:10 [SPEAKER_07]: or why Lepricon back to the hood exists, right?
59:10 --> 59:11 [SPEAKER_01]: That I will watch.
59:15 --> 59:21 [SPEAKER_07]: I will say if you're going to watch Lepricon movies, Lepricon 4 in space, not bad.
59:22 --> 59:28 [SPEAKER_07]: I'd like 3, because he's in Vegas, lots of gold opportunities.
59:28 --> 59:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Who doesn't have a movie set in Vegas?
59:32 --> 59:34 [SPEAKER_07]: 3 miles to Grace Lane is on the phone.
59:34 --> 59:35 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, no.
59:35 --> 59:38 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's sort of little of that movie is actually in Vegas.
59:38 --> 59:41 [SPEAKER_01]: But the fatal flaw of that movie.
59:41 --> 59:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
59:43 --> 59:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
59:43 --> 59:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
59:44 --> 59:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
59:44 --> 59:44 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
59:45 --> 59:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk about a couple more things.
59:46 --> 59:52 [SPEAKER_01]: But do you think that we've dissected the action sequences enough?
59:52 --> 59:53 [SPEAKER_07]: I think so.
59:53 --> 59:58 [SPEAKER_07]: I think we can talk about, you know, like again, just the,
59:59 --> 01:00:00 [SPEAKER_07]: the horse killing.
01:00:00 --> 01:00:01 [SPEAKER_07]: I think it's important too.
01:00:01 --> 01:00:09 [SPEAKER_07]: Like when you talked about all the things that were developed in there, I think one of the more interesting things to look back on is when eggs like kill them, you know, right there, kill them.
01:00:10 --> 01:00:19 [SPEAKER_07]: And then even then it's even pointed out that
01:00:19 --> 01:00:23 [SPEAKER_07]: it suggests now is like well was now is he versus brother to die.
01:00:24 --> 01:00:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you could read it like that.
01:00:26 --> 01:00:35 [SPEAKER_01]: The other way to read it is, you know, it is kind of an old timey boxing shout through, you know, metaphorically kill him.
01:00:36 --> 01:00:37 [SPEAKER_01]: He's a kid too.
01:00:37 --> 01:00:57 [SPEAKER_01]: He's a kid, you know, I think famously that the Ali vs. Foreman fight, you know, the crowd was chanting, Ali boom by A, which means Ali kill him, you know, I don't think anyone literally wanted Foreman to die, just because he didn't smile very often.
01:00:57 --> 01:01:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Because, of course, if that had happened, we would have never had the George Foreman grill.
01:01:04 --> 01:01:06 [SPEAKER_07]: We would have just had
01:01:08 --> 01:01:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Good thing, George Foreman came on the scene so that America became very thin.
01:01:14 --> 01:01:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we became a very thin people after.
01:01:16 --> 01:01:22 [SPEAKER_07]: Imagine what it would have been like, he had a knock.
01:01:22 --> 01:01:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to talk about unreliable narrators.
01:01:25 --> 01:01:32 [SPEAKER_01]: This is one of the major things that you're missing if you only watch Game of Thrones on television.
01:01:33 --> 01:01:37 [SPEAKER_01]: uh, Martin loves unreliable narrators.
01:01:38 --> 01:01:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And so for the most part, got narrative in this book, but it's kind of all filtered through Dung's perspective, and Dunk is not very bright, right?
01:01:50 --> 01:01:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And he even knows he's not bright, you know, he's he's self-aware enough to know like, I don't know, squires more clever than I am.
01:01:57 --> 01:01:59 [SPEAKER_07]: One of the one of the things you can trust the most is his
01:02:00 --> 01:02:03 [SPEAKER_07]: ability to question in his own and tell him, right, right.
01:02:03 --> 01:02:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:02:04 --> 01:02:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So Martin will often give us enough information to work with, but he also wants us to question whether or not this particular POV is providing us unfiltered information.
01:02:20 --> 01:02:49 [SPEAKER_01]: and I think he wants us to see that it's not like for for instance egg doesn't want to go to the castle he wants to go into town he wants to watch a puppet show he's interested in shops and the people million about he wants to go to the tournament he doesn't want to go to the castle dunk tells the reader it's because he shy and he
01:02:50 --> 01:02:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's how Dunk would have felt in as a boy himself, right?
01:02:56 --> 01:02:58 [SPEAKER_01]: But we know that the boy's not shy, you know?
01:02:59 --> 01:03:00 [SPEAKER_01]: We found out earlier.
01:03:00 --> 01:03:01 [SPEAKER_01]: No, he's actually quite bold.
01:03:02 --> 01:03:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And he kind of likes that about him.
01:03:04 --> 01:03:06 [SPEAKER_07]: And he's pretty knowledgeable about things.
01:03:06 --> 01:03:07 [SPEAKER_07]: So there's more to him than he's the other.
01:03:07 --> 01:03:08 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, Dunk can't see it.
01:03:08 --> 01:03:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Dunk has all of the clues.
01:03:12 --> 01:03:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And because of that, we have the clues.
01:03:15 --> 01:03:19 [SPEAKER_01]: But he can't read them correctly.
01:03:19 --> 01:03:33 [SPEAKER_07]: outside of Dunks perspective either, which I think is interesting because it is kind of a clever way to to be in this world because we're like almost not necessarily even looking through Dunks either, we're just alongside him and it's kind of like, bro, you don't see that that way.
01:03:34 --> 01:03:35 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like great.
01:03:35 --> 01:03:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:03:35 --> 01:03:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:03:36 --> 01:03:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, if we were on Dunk shoulder, we would say you really think he's shy.
01:03:41 --> 01:03:45 [SPEAKER_01]: You think that's why it wasn't going to go to the castle, huh?
01:03:45 --> 01:03:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't you say earlier that you thought he was too bold?
01:03:48 --> 01:03:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that's kind of what Martin wants us to do.
01:03:51 --> 01:03:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Martin wants us to question these things.
01:03:53 --> 01:04:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that fans run into trouble with this with the show like House of the Dragon.
01:04:01 --> 01:04:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Because what they've done is they've read the source material and they're like, well, that's not how it happened.
01:04:06 --> 01:04:08 [SPEAKER_01]: You're the shows doing it differently.
01:04:09 --> 01:04:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And what I'm sitting here thinking is, no, you don't know how it actually happened.
01:04:13 --> 01:04:18 [SPEAKER_01]: You just know what certain narratives say about how it happened.
01:04:19 --> 01:04:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And in this particular case, you know, it's pretty clear, you know, what we're dealing with here is an incognito Targaryen boy.
01:04:30 --> 01:04:58 [SPEAKER_07]: uh... but of course he's got the clues he doesn't know how to read the clue it's also been revealed if i think fairly honestly that he doesn't know how to do this kind of thing right like he like he can't even really pray because he doesn't like no if you don't tell him how to do something like he doesn't do it yeah one point he thinks he's gonna die and he says uh... probably should pray about i don't know any prayers yeah exactly uh... so it's so there's moments like that that reveal that it's
01:04:58 --> 01:05:04 [SPEAKER_07]: There are certain aspects of just navigating life that he has to be pointed out to him.
01:05:04 --> 01:05:05 [SPEAKER_07]: It has to be told.
01:05:05 --> 01:05:18 [SPEAKER_07]: So there's certain, maybe he's strong, he's big, there's certain things that maybe he has instinctually that are advantageous, but analysis and not one of them.
01:05:18 --> 01:05:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that's right.
01:05:19 --> 01:05:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And little things like,
01:05:22 --> 01:05:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Jesus.
01:05:23 --> 01:05:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I said the wrong thing in front of the hand of the king.
01:05:26 --> 01:05:26 [SPEAKER_01]: What should I do now?
01:05:26 --> 01:05:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Can I look him in the eye?
01:05:28 --> 01:05:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure if I can look him in the eye.
01:05:30 --> 01:05:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So this whole world is new to him.
01:05:32 --> 01:05:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Which kind of just a little bit flips the the lone wolf and cub narrative on its head.
01:05:40 --> 01:05:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:05:41 --> 01:05:49 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the old grizzled guy who kind of the the reluctant teacher, you know, and the the young innocent cub in
01:05:50 --> 01:06:01 [SPEAKER_01]: bring in a humanity to the story and maybe touches the grizzled old veteran emotionally so that he can actually experience some kind of joy again.
01:06:01 --> 01:06:09 [SPEAKER_01]: In this case, Dunk is clearly the lesson formed of these two.
01:06:11 --> 01:06:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's egg who can scout better.
01:06:13 --> 01:06:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It's egg who knows the night's better.
01:06:16 --> 01:06:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, Dunk has the height in the strength or what not, but man, EG absolutely is going to be better at court.
01:06:25 --> 01:06:29 [SPEAKER_01]: He's going to be better hanging around other lords and ladies and nights.
01:06:31 --> 01:06:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Dunk, questionably, you know, is he even a knight?
01:06:34 --> 01:06:35 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't even know that.
01:06:36 --> 01:06:43 [SPEAKER_07]: Right, because he's also unreliable and the stories that we have from him, like we don't know what's in bellish at this point.
01:06:43 --> 01:06:44 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
01:06:44 --> 01:07:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So a couple of things, a couple of kind of major things that happen in this portion is he gets to talk to a girl, it's like this, as a 16 or 17 year old boy in his situation, you almost feel more tension.
01:07:03 --> 01:07:10 [SPEAKER_01]: with him, the getting up the courage to talk to a girl as you do, like, you know, to the hand of the king, right?
01:07:10 --> 01:07:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, totally.
01:07:11 --> 01:07:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, arguably he says more words to the hand of the king than he does to the public girl.
01:07:16 --> 01:07:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:07:17 --> 01:07:20 [SPEAKER_01]: No less intimidated by her than she is with him.
01:07:21 --> 01:07:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's a mark of a really talented writer to make sure that you understand how the stakes feel to the character.
01:07:32 --> 01:08:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Because on the surface it'd be like, oh my gosh dude, you just talked to the you just talked to the second in command of the entire kingdom and you made a great impression on him so much so that he vouched for you and you did to be a night like that's that's really impressive work good good job right but emotionally you almost feel more proud that he you
01:08:02 --> 01:08:09 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, yeah, because it's almost like he, he didn't really overthink that interaction as much oddly enough, right?
01:08:10 --> 01:08:20 [SPEAKER_07]: With Tancel, it's like, it's like, oh, man, like there, you get so much hope, like this is like he just, like, it's, it's, it's a little more sweet.
01:08:21 --> 01:08:28 [SPEAKER_07]: So you, I think that tension feels a little more authentic to, and it, and it's more relatable.
01:08:28 --> 01:08:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's more relatable for sure.
01:08:30 --> 01:08:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the one thing we're learning about him as a character is, he's going to leap before he looks.
01:08:37 --> 01:08:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:08:37 --> 01:08:44 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, he's going to walk into the Great Hall at Ashford, not really knowing what he's going to say or do.
01:08:45 --> 01:08:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So he kind of just fumbles his way in and he just happens into a conversation that goes his way.
01:08:51 --> 01:08:52 [SPEAKER_01]: He had rehearsed it.
01:08:52 --> 01:08:55 [SPEAKER_01]: He had no idea what was going to happen when he entered.
01:08:55 --> 01:08:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Same thing with Tensel.
01:08:56 --> 01:09:02 [SPEAKER_01]: He goes to her, asked her to paint a shield, has no clue what he wants on the shield.
01:09:03 --> 01:09:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:09:04 --> 01:09:11 [SPEAKER_01]: He hasn't thought, he hasn't thought through like, maybe I should think through what I want painted on the shield before, right?
01:09:11 --> 01:09:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm scared.
01:09:11 --> 01:09:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Before I can mention it.
01:09:13 --> 01:09:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:09:14 --> 01:09:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, egg as any good wingman will, you know, comes to his aid.
01:09:20 --> 01:09:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So, and then, of course, that sets up because we know that about his character, that sets up the major action sequence of this portion.
01:09:32 --> 01:09:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Is he hears that 10 cells being assaulted by this villainous Targaryen and, you know, he kind of recognizes as he's running, like, that's good advice.
01:09:45 --> 01:09:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I should be really careful here.
01:09:47 --> 01:09:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm just going to punch his guy in the face.
01:09:51 --> 01:10:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, so again, leaping before he's looking and it ends up working out for him, but this is you know, he's he's impetuous and he doesn't think things through and he might just kind of fall backward.
01:10:08 --> 01:10:10 [SPEAKER_01]: He might just fail his way upward, I guess.
01:10:11 --> 01:10:16 [SPEAKER_07]: So egg though, you know, egg gets dunked for help.
01:10:17 --> 01:10:22 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, knowing that to some degrees, putting Duncan in danger.
01:10:22 --> 01:10:24 [SPEAKER_01]: But is Egg smart enough?
01:10:24 --> 01:10:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how old he is.
01:10:25 --> 01:10:28 [SPEAKER_01]: He is perceived to be eight years old, right?
01:10:29 --> 01:10:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Is Egg smart enough to know that if anything happens to dunk, I'll play the Targaryen card and get him out of the jam.
01:10:37 --> 01:10:40 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, that's kind of how I read it.
01:10:41 --> 01:10:44 [SPEAKER_07]: But at the same time, it's like, you don't know that he doesn't take a sword immediately.
01:10:44 --> 01:10:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, and egg is he's or that dunk doesn't do something even more rad as clever as he is he's still a kid True, and if you know you look there's an injustice happening.
01:10:56 --> 01:11:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I need the world to be fair You your big go punch that guy in the face.
01:11:03 --> 01:11:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:11:03 --> 01:11:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll take care of the rest.
01:11:04 --> 01:11:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah So the other thing I wanted to talk about was this line
01:11:13 --> 01:11:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Sweet Lady said Florian, all men are fools, and all men are knights.
01:11:19 --> 01:11:20 [SPEAKER_01]: We're women are concerned.
01:11:21 --> 01:11:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a line of the puppet show.
01:11:24 --> 01:11:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And as, you know, Martin has Master World Builder, he's got these little stories and songs that the people in the world know sort of provides texture for their world because they have to have some kind of culture, right?
01:11:39 --> 01:11:43 [SPEAKER_01]: This is one of the popular puppet shows that's going around the kingdom.
01:11:43 --> 01:11:53 [SPEAKER_01]: It's about Florian the Fool who ends up becoming a knight and falling in love with John Cool, who's a lady.
01:11:54 --> 01:11:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a big deal in all of the songs of chapters.
01:11:57 --> 01:12:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Almost all of the songs of chapters in a clash of kings is that she remembers the story she heard as a kid, and she kind of interprets the world through this story.
01:12:11 --> 01:12:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's like next level world building in my mind, because you're telling a particular POV, it's an unreliable narrator,
01:12:22 --> 01:12:28 [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be filtered through some cultural understanding, right?
01:12:29 --> 01:12:31 [SPEAKER_01]: For Duncan, it's like, well, he's just not that bright.
01:12:31 --> 01:12:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the filter.
01:12:34 --> 01:12:50 [SPEAKER_01]: For someone like Sansa Stark to have her interpret her world, her own story, through a story that is part of her culture that we're not aware of and haven't made sense, is kind of brilliant.
01:12:51 --> 01:12:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:12:52 --> 01:13:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And in this little novella, I think we have the fullest expression of this junk wool and Florian story, even if it's only a few lines.
01:13:04 --> 01:13:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I wanted to call it out as sort of this is kind of one of the things that you do when you're world building.
01:13:10 --> 01:13:16 [SPEAKER_01]: The characters in the story have a culture and you're only kind of getting the little glimpse into the culture.
01:13:18 --> 01:13:33 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, and if you built that world again, since this is my first venture into reading Martin, if you built a world successfully and you know that world, and you're, you're free to navigate, right?
01:13:33 --> 01:13:34 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, you're free to navigate it.
01:13:34 --> 01:13:35 [SPEAKER_07]: You're free to use it.
01:13:36 --> 01:13:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:13:36 --> 01:13:39 [SPEAKER_07]: It's, it's at your disposal.
01:13:39 --> 01:13:44 [SPEAKER_07]: And if it's built well, like to your point, if it's built well enough, you can,
01:13:44 --> 01:14:05 [SPEAKER_07]: You can sprinkle it in, and then as you take a step back at all of the stories that you've created, and the world is consistent throughout, it's an interesting element because it makes the world bigger, the more it's referenced through all these other words.
01:14:05 --> 01:14:07 [SPEAKER_07]: But your world is actually kind of small.
01:14:08 --> 01:14:08 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
01:14:09 --> 01:14:14 [SPEAKER_07]: As far as worlds go, I mean, there's lots of years going by, right?
01:14:15 --> 01:14:34 [SPEAKER_07]: Um, but he is able to also manage that in a way that says, okay, well, you know, time goes by and sometimes these, the lore, it's, honestly, it's a lot like how when you go like, how is how our churches able to still refer to the same text over and over again is because you can kind of keep taking the lore and
01:14:34 --> 01:15:00 [SPEAKER_01]: overlaying it with whatever modern issues are going on to show us a certain universality of it right and so the kind of the same kind of thing happens with the stories that's right and I think in the show they they brought it out with the song the bear in the maiden fair like every every couple episodes you'd hear like some some singer and some pub or some soldiers walking by singing the bear in the maiden fair.
01:15:00 --> 01:15:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was sort of a way to, a way to sort of hint like, yeah, they've got popular songs that get too much radio play.
01:15:10 --> 01:15:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And we all listened to the radio when we were growing up.
01:15:14 --> 01:15:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And when you were at the mercy of the radio, you may have to listen to that one Billy Jolson 50 times.
01:15:25 --> 01:15:25 [SPEAKER_01]: right.
01:15:26 --> 01:15:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was just your life and you may not like that song, you know, he's he's got 80 other songs that you play.
01:15:35 --> 01:15:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:15:37 --> 01:15:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, but they're going to play that one over and over and it's something about American culture and the 80s that is not going to be like on the headlines.
01:15:49 --> 01:15:50 [SPEAKER_01]: This is not headline stuff.
01:15:51 --> 01:15:55 [SPEAKER_01]: But in order to bring texture to the world, you kind of have to bring some of that stuff in.
01:15:55 --> 01:16:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So Florini and John Quill is one of the ways that he brings in the texture to this world.
01:16:02 --> 01:16:10 [SPEAKER_01]: But in addition to that, I think it does help us understand one of the key themes of this novella.
01:16:12 --> 01:16:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is that here we have this guy, is he a knight or is he a fool or is he both?
01:16:19 --> 01:16:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, or does it matter?
01:16:20 --> 01:16:21 [SPEAKER_01]: something.
01:16:21 --> 01:16:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Right?
01:16:21 --> 01:16:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he's talking, you know, he kind of, you must think I'm a fool.
01:16:26 --> 01:16:28 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you can't remember what he once painted on the shield?
01:16:28 --> 01:16:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, she quotes a line from the puppet show.
01:16:34 --> 01:16:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And she says, ah, you know, every man is a knight and every man is a fool.
01:16:39 --> 01:16:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And that encapsulates this particular story.
01:16:46 --> 01:16:49 [SPEAKER_01]: This guy, dunk, he might be a knight.
01:16:50 --> 01:16:52 [SPEAKER_01]: He might be a fool or he might be both.
01:16:53 --> 01:17:05 [SPEAKER_07]: Right, and then it's kind of this, in a way you can almost look at it as sort of critique or at least a deconstruction of sort of the idea of class systems in general, right?
01:17:05 --> 01:17:10 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like, same, you know, you can be either
01:17:11 --> 01:17:13 [SPEAKER_07]: it's kind of depends on who gets to make that call.
01:17:13 --> 01:17:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is how the line ends.
01:17:15 --> 01:17:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It's all about perception.
01:17:17 --> 01:17:19 [SPEAKER_01]: When women are concerned, right?
01:17:19 --> 01:17:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is one that's a theme that Martin loves.
01:17:22 --> 01:17:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And it gets a little trophy at times, but you've got major characters like Tyrion who are really, really, really, really smart.
01:17:30 --> 01:17:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And when it comes to women, they get really, really, really dumb.
01:17:35 --> 01:17:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And same thing with, you know, of course, you know, John Snow is going to make his worst decisions when when women are involved.
01:17:41 --> 01:17:45 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like Martin loves this little trope.
01:17:45 --> 01:17:50 [SPEAKER_01]: He loves like this guy is going to do the right thing, you know, Rob Stark.
01:17:50 --> 01:18:03 [SPEAKER_01]: He's he's actually going to be quite an impressive leader, but will he make the right decision between the sheets because because that's when men become really foolish.
01:18:04 --> 01:18:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think Martin really likes that theme.
01:18:07 --> 01:18:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And so far, you know, I think you could put dunk in this conversation as well.
01:18:16 --> 01:18:18 [SPEAKER_01]: That's like he's actually doing pretty well from self.
01:18:20 --> 01:18:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So far in the story.
01:18:21 --> 01:18:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he hears that the public girls getting beaten up, and he just completely throws everything away.
01:18:29 --> 01:18:31 [SPEAKER_07]: Right, and like, and at the other point, you're talking about you.
01:18:31 --> 01:19:01 [SPEAKER_07]: juxtaposed the two instances where he feels like he's second guessing is his how he interacts right obviously with tense tonsil and then when he's with the hand of the king he it almost feels he's like like he said he's like kind of failing up in the other situation he just sort of kind of not I mean like he kind of the half of the fact is like well up geez I don't know Mitch I've said that
01:19:01 --> 01:19:08 [SPEAKER_07]: Whereas the other side of it is like he's just so in his head about it, but his instincts are much different, right?
01:19:09 --> 01:19:16 [SPEAKER_07]: Like his instincts were accidentally good one way and they're they seem to be kind of problematic another way.
01:19:16 --> 01:19:28 [SPEAKER_07]: So it's like it's interesting to see how those motivations and again, what he considers to be his priority of like of stakes, like he's kind of bold with this whole night thing.
01:19:28 --> 01:19:30 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it's kind of a big
01:19:30 --> 01:19:35 [SPEAKER_07]: ruse to some degree, even if it's even if he believes it, it's a lot on the table, right?
01:19:35 --> 01:19:36 [SPEAKER_07]: He's all in for it.
01:19:39 --> 01:19:45 [SPEAKER_07]: But he's not taking that same approach that's like, well, I'm a knight, I can just probably get a woman if I want a woman.
01:19:47 --> 01:19:48 [SPEAKER_07]: He's not doing that at all.
01:19:49 --> 01:19:52 [SPEAKER_07]: There's a boundary to where he's willing to do this.
01:19:52 --> 01:19:58 [SPEAKER_07]: He's like, he could almost fake his way as a knight in high court, but he can't in front of a woman.
01:19:58 --> 01:20:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's a little bit of boxing narrative in this, like with Rocky, there's something about being a nobody.
01:20:08 --> 01:20:16 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you can go up against a champion, a really well-known fighter, you don't have to win.
01:20:16 --> 01:20:21 [SPEAKER_01]: You just have to do well enough to sort of win the respect.
01:20:21 --> 01:20:22 [SPEAKER_07]: To look like you belong.
01:20:22 --> 01:20:25 [SPEAKER_01]: To look like you belong there, exactly.
01:20:26 --> 01:20:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that there's something about that, like sort of this is an old sort of boxing strategy.
01:20:31 --> 01:20:38 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, just get this one fight with this one guy, you don't have to win, you just have to become a name.
01:20:40 --> 01:20:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And, and this is dunk strategy.
01:20:43 --> 01:20:50 [SPEAKER_01]: He's saying, I like how to do his win one of these things and not make, not look like a fool out there.
01:20:50 --> 01:20:53 [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm in.
01:20:53 --> 01:20:57 [SPEAKER_07]: Happy Gilmore was kept on getting checks while being on the tour.
01:20:57 --> 01:20:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.
01:20:58 --> 01:20:59 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to be a champion.
01:21:00 --> 01:21:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that's what we find with Arlan Penney Tree.
01:21:02 --> 01:21:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, what is Baylor say he says, like he never, he was never a champion.
01:21:09 --> 01:21:12 [SPEAKER_01]: but he never shamed himself in the lists.
01:21:12 --> 01:21:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Like he was right.
01:21:13 --> 01:21:15 [SPEAKER_01]: He belonged there.
01:21:15 --> 01:21:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's something in sportsy about that, too.
01:21:19 --> 01:21:27 [SPEAKER_01]: If you're like a master competitor, and you really think about it a lot, you remember these old foes that you've had.
01:21:28 --> 01:21:35 [SPEAKER_01]: These old challengers, like you remember the way you felt when you were going up head to head with that guy.
01:21:36 --> 01:21:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, Arlin Penney tree is kind of a nobody, dies without ceremony, no one really cares about him.
01:21:44 --> 01:21:50 [SPEAKER_01]: But because Baylor is kind of, he's not just like a master of the sport, he's kind of also a student of the sport.
01:21:52 --> 01:21:54 [SPEAKER_01]: He remembers all these old opponents he's had.
01:21:55 --> 01:22:06 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, and it is interesting too, so you get this element of the sports is a such a major part of culture.
01:22:07 --> 01:22:34 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like, why do people fill their head with statistics about people that they just don't know that doesn't seem to matter or doesn't, and it's all yeah, why, why can you name the backup catcher on the giants and you can't remember my girlfriend's name, you know, that sure exactly right and why do these things matter and a lot of times with sports it is region right it's it's this weird regional bragging right, it brings people together.
01:22:34 --> 01:22:39 [SPEAKER_07]: from all classes can come together, you know, maybe sitting in different spots and we see that in here, right?
01:22:39 --> 01:22:47 [SPEAKER_07]: There's, there's where the common folks sit and then where there's where like the lords and ladies sit, you know, box seats versus, you know, bleachers.
01:22:47 --> 01:22:56 [SPEAKER_07]: And so you look at a guy like Dunk and it's like, there's a lot of stories that are like this in, you know, in modern day where it's like, look, I can't do a lot, but I can run the football pretty well.
01:22:57 --> 01:23:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Or you just happen to be in the right place at the right time, maybe a little bit of luck your way.
01:23:03 --> 01:23:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, you were maybe the six man on the bench.
01:23:09 --> 01:23:13 [SPEAKER_01]: But in this particular moment, you were the best person.
01:23:14 --> 01:23:22 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like Iguadala wins the MVP because he was just the right guy at the right moment to defend the bronze James.
01:23:23 --> 01:23:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, is, you know, is, is he?
01:23:26 --> 01:23:28 [SPEAKER_07]: Broke parties taking the last pick in the game.
01:23:28 --> 01:23:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:23:28 --> 01:23:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:23:28 --> 01:23:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:23:29 --> 01:23:29 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
01:23:30 --> 01:23:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And so if you, if you can, equip yourself well when it matters most, then you're going to be remembered.
01:23:38 --> 01:23:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And the opposite is also true.
01:23:39 --> 01:23:42 [SPEAKER_01]: It's how many times did the Warriors face the calves?
01:23:42 --> 01:23:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Was it four times?
01:23:45 --> 01:23:45 [SPEAKER_01]: in the finals.
01:23:46 --> 01:23:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:23:47 --> 01:23:47 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
01:23:47 --> 01:23:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of games that went into those.
01:23:50 --> 01:23:52 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of important moments in it.
01:23:52 --> 01:23:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember a few things.
01:23:55 --> 01:23:57 [SPEAKER_01]: The bronze chase down dunk.
01:23:58 --> 01:24:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember that Drayman Green was physically incapable of stopping himself from kicking other people in the balls.
01:24:08 --> 01:24:09 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
01:24:11 --> 01:24:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And they would ask him about it.
01:24:13 --> 01:24:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, could you stop doing that?
01:24:14 --> 01:24:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you, you know, you could.
01:24:16 --> 01:24:17 [SPEAKER_01]: It'd be really helpful.
01:24:17 --> 01:24:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And he would say, look, I just play the way I play.
01:24:20 --> 01:24:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I cannot stop myself.
01:24:22 --> 01:24:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess what?
01:24:25 --> 01:24:27 [SPEAKER_02]: He got kicked out.
01:24:28 --> 01:24:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was like one of those things.
01:24:30 --> 01:24:34 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I'm going to remember that forever.
01:24:35 --> 01:24:39 [SPEAKER_07]: He was arguably the best player on the floor, that series.
01:24:40 --> 01:24:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And yet, he, if he could just stop kicking people in the balls, that's one more championship.
01:24:49 --> 01:24:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And so for all, like, I should be so pleased with the three championships, the Warriors got.
01:24:56 --> 01:24:59 [SPEAKER_07]: He could have been, he could have been finals MVP.
01:24:59 --> 01:25:02 [SPEAKER_01]: He, yes, his story would have been so much different.
01:25:02 --> 01:25:07 [SPEAKER_01]: There's so many things that I should appreciate about all of those winning years.
01:25:08 --> 01:25:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And like, I'm telling you, like, line two of look at his Wikipedia page is going to be could not stop kicking people in the balls.
01:25:18 --> 01:25:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, I get this that sense with Aryan, you know, it's like, man, you're going to be remembered as the guy who played dirty.
01:25:30 --> 01:25:32 [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to be that horse killer Aryan.
01:25:32 --> 01:25:58 [SPEAKER_01]: you're gonna be the horse-killer area and uh... you don't think that this is an issue but everyone sees it everyone sees it that was on purpose everyone thinks you're a villain now and that's that's who you are now did you catch why area was upset with the puppet show i was just gonna ask uh... and maybe i didn't read it close enough or was what was the issue
01:25:59 --> 01:26:02 [SPEAKER_07]: So, you know, because they're just destroying puppet.
01:26:02 --> 01:26:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, he doesn't like the idea that the dragon doesn't farewell in this puppet show, that the dragon is defeated.
01:26:14 --> 01:26:24 [SPEAKER_01]: So the backstory here is that in this world, there have been people who have challenged the Targaryen throne.
01:26:24 --> 01:26:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And so everyone's really sore,
01:26:27 --> 01:26:31 [SPEAKER_01]: about propaganda that would make Targaryens look bad.
01:26:33 --> 01:26:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And so then if the dragon loses, it's racist.
01:26:35 --> 01:26:36 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
01:26:36 --> 01:26:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:26:36 --> 01:26:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:26:37 --> 01:26:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:26:37 --> 01:26:39 [SPEAKER_01]: The dragon loses its racist.
01:26:39 --> 01:26:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So, so here this guy is he's pissed off because he feels like he shouldn't have been disqualified.
01:26:47 --> 01:26:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, he's going to take it out on someone with a lot less power than he has.
01:26:52 --> 01:27:02 [SPEAKER_01]: But the reason why it is is that he's a little bit like Damon Targaryen in that, he thinks that Targaryen history is the only important thing.
01:27:03 --> 01:27:04 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the only important thing.
01:27:05 --> 01:27:09 [SPEAKER_01]: He wants to make sure that everyone is respectful of Targaryens.
01:27:10 --> 01:27:12 [SPEAKER_01]: He's just thinks he's better than everyone else.
01:27:13 --> 01:27:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And so when he sees this puppet girls, you know, putting forth this kind of propaganda, he is, uh, he's not thrilled.
01:27:25 --> 01:27:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know if that, I don't know if that was explained well enough in this novella.
01:27:33 --> 01:27:35 [SPEAKER_07]: So interesting that you make bring that up.
01:27:36 --> 01:27:40 [SPEAKER_07]: Is that also maybe a potential
01:27:40 --> 01:27:52 [SPEAKER_07]: Pitfall that one can have like a Martin when you when you build the world so significantly that maybe it's easy for you to forget Which parts of the world need to be explained a little bit right?
01:27:52 --> 01:27:54 [SPEAKER_07]: I can maybe for him.
01:27:54 --> 01:27:59 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like well that would go without saying right because to a You know then a student reader
01:28:00 --> 01:28:07 [SPEAKER_07]: that would be one of the because of how well you're informed on the world that he's built and that would be a little bit easier for you to get.
01:28:07 --> 01:28:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think he does enough in that, like he, I think he puts the words on areas list, like the dragons should never lose, right?
01:28:18 --> 01:28:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:28:18 --> 01:28:19 [SPEAKER_01]: But,
01:28:19 --> 01:28:23 [SPEAKER_01]: If you don't know the political backstory, you don't know like, is this guy pissed off about a public show?
01:28:23 --> 01:28:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, is he stupid?
01:28:26 --> 01:28:35 [SPEAKER_07]: Um, so there's that looking back, I do recall reading that part and knowing enough to be like, oh, okay, it's the right thing.
01:28:35 --> 01:28:40 [SPEAKER_07]: And I know, because like, because I'm trying to keep track of everybody and I know these that I know they're, I know the Targaryens and as well.
01:28:41 --> 01:28:41 [SPEAKER_07]: Um,
01:28:41 --> 01:28:46 [SPEAKER_07]: And then the other, you know, again, so trying to figure out, you know, I don't know my hump brings from a hole in the wall.
01:28:46 --> 01:28:53 [SPEAKER_01]: But it does, it does tell us it just sort of remind us of the point that if you're going to do this, it has to work on both levels.
01:28:54 --> 01:28:57 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to have a shorthand for people who don't know the world.
01:28:59 --> 01:29:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And it has to make sense within the larger world you built, right?
01:29:02 --> 01:29:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:29:04 --> 01:29:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I want if there's sort of a magicians trick with this.
01:29:07 --> 01:29:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, like, you bring the beautiful woman out on stage, your eyes go to her and then there's a slight of hand thing that happens.
01:29:17 --> 01:29:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder if there's something about the five pages of description where you're kind of distracted and you think, what's important is happening on the lists.
01:29:29 --> 01:29:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's hard to follow and you lose track of the most important plot twist, which is on the neck of the viewer.
01:29:38 --> 01:29:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:29:39 --> 01:29:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's egg who's sitting on the shoulders of dunk.
01:29:42 --> 01:29:44 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the important part of this story.
01:29:45 --> 01:29:50 [SPEAKER_01]: But because you're looking through dunks eyes, you're, you know, you're, it's a magicians trick.
01:29:50 --> 01:29:56 [SPEAKER_01]: You're looking at all of the action that kind of distracts you from the real plot of the story.
01:29:56 --> 01:29:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:29:57 --> 01:29:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Which ends up getting revealed later in the evening.
01:30:00 --> 01:30:07 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, and then also, I think maybe to the earlier point is like, here's this reveal.
01:30:08 --> 01:30:31 [SPEAKER_07]: as it really is if you don't have distractions like you said there's so many clues that are like oh well yeah but you're caught well there's this happening now then there's this happening that's so kind of you know but meanwhile it's like oh okay if you're taking all that stuff out you're like well there's no reveal here I read these I have to follow that I track these crums that's right you can almost take something that's not as big
01:30:31 --> 01:30:37 [SPEAKER_07]: as big of a reveal, create a reveal out of it just by virtue of delane and distract.
01:30:37 --> 01:30:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, in some ways, it's buried like there's a bunch of names like that are mentioned in the courtroom, really great hall.
01:30:47 --> 01:30:48 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, Darren's missing.
01:30:48 --> 01:30:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Sir Rollins got to go out to get them.
01:30:51 --> 01:30:54 [SPEAKER_01]: There's Arians out in the wild.
01:30:54 --> 01:30:56 [SPEAKER_01]: There's Aegon out in the wild.
01:30:56 --> 01:30:57 [SPEAKER_01]: There's Eris out in the wild.
01:30:57 --> 01:31:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And so
01:31:02 --> 01:31:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And because of that, you're not noticing, wait, there's a, there's a son named Aegon, and he's young.
01:31:08 --> 01:31:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, could Aegon be short for Aegon?
01:31:10 --> 01:31:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you're just, you just, just sound it out.
01:31:14 --> 01:31:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:31:14 --> 01:31:21 [SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's really kind of like, he's using the world building to kind of bury the, the important plot twist, I guess.
01:31:21 --> 01:31:32 [SPEAKER_07]: And it is, it is something where, if you were reading this out loud to somebody, and because you're here in the audiobook, I mean, maybe it's, it's easier to catch
01:31:32 --> 01:31:42 [SPEAKER_07]: But if you're reading it specifically as a different word, sometimes it's a no, it's a sort of trip you up okay notable introduction there are too many dimensions, but I'll mention a few
01:31:43 --> 01:31:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Sir Manfred Baylor, Targaryen, Mekar, Tensel, the Tall.
01:31:51 --> 01:32:07 [SPEAKER_01]: We hear mention of Darren and King Darren, Sir Roland Aegon, Aryan, Eris, Regar, Leo, Tyrell, Lionel, Baratheon and a bunch of other people.
01:32:07 --> 01:32:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Notable the partures.
01:32:09 --> 01:32:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess we say goodbye to Sir Humphrey's horse.
01:32:15 --> 01:32:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And we say goodbye to eggs and an
01:32:37 --> 01:32:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
01:32:38 --> 01:32:41 [SPEAKER_01]: What was your experience of the courtroom?
01:32:42 --> 01:32:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like getting ready for jury duty.
01:32:47 --> 01:32:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It's surprising to me that you've never been on trial because give me my lifestyle.
01:32:55 --> 01:32:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Just your general iniquity.
01:32:58 --> 01:32:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:33:00 --> 01:33:02 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, no one's ever asked me to be a character witness.
01:33:04 --> 01:33:21 [SPEAKER_07]: I have been asked to be a character isn't it feels like you had several runnings with the law when you okay we can talk about it on this podcast that's fine you know the true misdemeanors podcast you're just turning in you were a wayward youth at times
01:33:22 --> 01:33:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, but never did the law never catch up to you.
01:33:26 --> 01:33:27 [SPEAKER_02]: He's that one.
01:33:27 --> 01:33:34 [SPEAKER_07]: The law did, but everything, nothing went to court, you were able to talk you way out of it.
01:33:34 --> 01:33:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wait.
01:33:34 --> 01:33:36 [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe I did go to court.
01:33:37 --> 01:33:38 [SPEAKER_07]: I think you.
01:33:38 --> 01:33:39 [SPEAKER_07]: Jaywalking.
01:33:39 --> 01:33:59 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, I went to here's here's my memory and you can correct me and I thought, you know, I wasn't there, but I thought that after a bit of vandalism, you and Jeff were not supposed to consort with each other anymore and this was the judge by a judge.
01:33:59 --> 01:34:07 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I don't I don't recall if I actually went because I was I think they went to court because they were older.
01:34:09 --> 01:34:27 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, like I, you think I got off of my got free because of your, no, I mean, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was on probation and and headed to community service, but I don't think, yeah, I didn't have to go to like a court court for that.
01:34:28 --> 01:34:32 [SPEAKER_07]: It was like a juvenile, like, I don't know, I don't even know if I was even like official.
01:34:32 --> 01:34:35 [SPEAKER_07]: I think just some guy told me that I had to go do it and I just did it.
01:34:36 --> 01:34:36 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
01:34:36 --> 01:34:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Next question.
01:34:39 --> 01:35:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I imagine J.Watt, the J-walking one I did have to, okay, all right, so imagine that you're 16 years old and you do have to go to court and the option is given to you, well, you could either, you know, get your foot cut off or you could engage in a trial of seven, where seven of your buddies have to face up against seven of the court appointed warriors, right?
01:35:08 --> 01:35:15 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I, you know my friend list, my, my immediate follow-up question would be, do I get to choose the foot?
01:35:17 --> 01:35:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought you were going to say, do I get to choose my friends?
01:35:21 --> 01:35:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I can see like a, you know, like tap and Jesse Ackonsen on the shoulder.
01:35:27 --> 01:35:35 [SPEAKER_07]: Say, hey, yeah, I just don't know what I don't know that he would do to put, yeah, I, 16, maybe 16, I can, I can maybe pull some, uh,
01:35:36 --> 01:35:52 [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe I think at that age I could like anything younger than that and it would have just been it would have been a bunch of guys that like are like I'd have to interrupt their D&D I was always very unrealistic about my abilities as a young man.
01:35:52 --> 01:35:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like as opposed to now.
01:35:57 --> 01:35:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I would have gambled.
01:35:58 --> 01:36:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I would have been like, yeah, I'm going to go find six big guys and then I'll look for the, you know, the the weakest guy on the other team and I'll go after that guy.
01:36:08 --> 01:36:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll just see how this thing falls.
01:36:11 --> 01:36:13 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you were also a man of faith, so you could also be.
01:36:14 --> 01:36:19 [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, yeah, that's that, you know, hey, look, if I feel that like the gods are on my side.
01:36:19 --> 01:36:20 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
01:36:20 --> 01:36:22 [SPEAKER_07]: You know, there's that other element to it, right?
01:36:23 --> 01:36:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, which is what you feel like my faith back then would have been like, dude, God's gonna smite you down.
01:36:30 --> 01:36:30 [SPEAKER_01]: That's fair.
01:36:31 --> 01:36:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:36:31 --> 01:36:35 [SPEAKER_07]: Even if I'm not guilty of this, I did jerk off recently.
01:36:35 --> 01:36:37 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right, I did.
01:36:37 --> 01:36:43 [SPEAKER_07]: Like I'm late finding another person to try to fight on my behalf because I saw a victorious secret ad.
01:36:46 --> 01:36:48 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
01:36:48 --> 01:37:10 [SPEAKER_01]: uh... we finished the hege night yes uh... hege night was uh... published in ninety eight uh... martin had not yet finished a clash of kings yet uh... he submitted this short story to a collection of short stories wherein he was sort of the least known author
01:37:12 --> 01:37:30 [SPEAKER_01]: and you know Terry Pratchett wrote a short story and Steven King wrote a short story and you know Game of Thrones had a fair amount of readership but it was not a best seller and a lot of people came to Martin because of the strength of this story.
01:37:30 --> 01:37:35 [SPEAKER_01]: They picked up that book because yeah, I'm going to read everything Steven King writes.
01:37:36 --> 01:37:48 [SPEAKER_01]: and people who wanted to just follow these other authors happen to see his story in this book of The Hedge Knight and loved it.
01:37:48 --> 01:37:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And it totally, according to Martin, it totally improved the sales of a clash of kings.
01:37:55 --> 01:37:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, the rest is history.
01:37:58 --> 01:38:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So he really became a popular writer
01:38:06 --> 01:38:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's interesting to me because he's kind of known for this sort of cynical real politics, you know, heart of darkness kind of character, or kind of writer.
01:38:20 --> 01:38:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet this story almost gives you a white night vision of the world.
01:38:26 --> 01:38:27 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, for sure.
01:38:27 --> 01:38:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it almost is like this short story is a little bit against type.
01:38:33 --> 01:38:35 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I think I'm glad you mentioned that because
01:38:35 --> 01:38:41 [SPEAKER_07]: You know, my experience with Martin is all adapted on screen.
01:38:43 --> 01:38:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, not anymore.
01:38:44 --> 01:38:44 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, not anymore.
01:38:44 --> 01:38:45 [SPEAKER_07]: Not anymore.
01:38:45 --> 01:38:52 [SPEAKER_07]: So this, so my expectation, I did not expect this to be the finale, right?
01:38:52 --> 01:38:55 [SPEAKER_07]: Like, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a very compelling little story.
01:38:56 --> 01:38:56 [SPEAKER_07]: They printed it all the way through.
01:38:56 --> 01:39:00 [SPEAKER_07]: But I was like, all right, here comes, you know, it's just, and it didn't.
01:39:00 --> 01:39:03 [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm like, huh, so I did, it did sort of, um,
01:39:04 --> 01:39:12 [SPEAKER_07]: It was a twist, but only because of my own, you know, but it would be my expectations of what I've experienced it thus far.
01:39:12 --> 01:39:27 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's interesting to me because you would expect the good night to be good, and then to, you know, kill your good night in the end, like he does in Game of Thrones, it's kind of a subversion to the genre.
01:39:28 --> 01:39:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet he's become so well known for that.
01:39:32 --> 01:39:36 [SPEAKER_01]: that it's almost like this story is the outlier.
01:39:36 --> 01:39:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, but yeah, but I said this is a gateway for a lot of people.
01:39:40 --> 01:39:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's right.
01:39:41 --> 01:39:41 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
01:39:42 --> 01:39:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I don't know.
01:39:43 --> 01:40:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of people enjoy reading Martin or watching Martin's stories on the screen because he is real politics and he does subvert and he's really interested in these morally great characters and oftentimes the good guys will not win in the end and are there any good guys in the world at all?
01:40:05 --> 01:40:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet, it sounds like you enjoyed the story.
01:40:08 --> 01:40:10 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, like I did.
01:40:11 --> 01:40:16 [SPEAKER_07]: And I guess, you know, and maybe that's, I think it's a testament to his writing.
01:40:16 --> 01:40:20 [SPEAKER_07]: I think I think there's definitely a place for the story.
01:40:20 --> 01:40:38 [SPEAKER_07]: I've kind of known to be a bit of a cynic, and I don't mind when a show or a short story, or something ends in such a way that maybe it feels like it's just entered, or you've unleashed more problems than you've unleashed solutions.
01:40:38 --> 01:40:43 [SPEAKER_07]: And again, what's up in like this, I mean because it is a short story, we don't know, we don't know what happens to us.
01:40:43 --> 01:40:54 [SPEAKER_07]: We don't know how easy or difficult it is for, you know, Dunk and egg to, you know, and there are adventures, but there's, you know, he survives.
01:40:54 --> 01:40:59 [SPEAKER_07]: There's a glimmer of hope, and, but I mean, it's not, uh,
01:41:00 --> 01:41:02 [SPEAKER_07]: It's not resolved necessarily, right?
01:41:02 --> 01:41:04 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it just this incident is resolved.
01:41:04 --> 01:41:11 [SPEAKER_01]: This particular incident is resolved, but you could see this as a standalone novella.
01:41:11 --> 01:41:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it doesn't need a sequel for this to be a story.
01:41:17 --> 01:41:17 [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
01:41:17 --> 01:41:26 [SPEAKER_07]: And I think that and like so much of it is like sort of, you know, what narrators do you trust and what part of lore can you take at face value?
01:41:27 --> 01:41:29 [SPEAKER_07]: And so when you explore a tale,
01:41:30 --> 01:41:33 [SPEAKER_07]: where you may have to fill in some blanks or you can add a little salt and pepper to them.
01:41:35 --> 01:41:36 [SPEAKER_07]: You have a little more freedom to do so.
01:41:36 --> 01:41:43 [SPEAKER_07]: So this, it almost reads like, kind of almost a bedtime story you tell in Westeros.
01:41:43 --> 01:41:45 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, let me tell you the story about the hedge night.
01:41:45 --> 01:41:53 [SPEAKER_07]: And so it's like, it resolves in a way that feels like, okay, now get some sleep, you know, squire and away with you.
01:41:54 --> 01:41:56 [SPEAKER_07]: But, you know, so there is sort of this,
01:41:56 --> 01:41:58 [SPEAKER_07]: a feel good lore to it, right?
01:41:58 --> 01:42:03 [SPEAKER_07]: That doesn't, that can live in this world and doesn't necessarily even have to be true.
01:42:04 --> 01:42:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:42:05 --> 01:42:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that there's something about this, you know, almost white night story that almost requires, I was thinking about this today, I was thinking, is dunk,
01:42:23 --> 01:42:30 [SPEAKER_01]: a good night in Martin's world because he's kind of simple.
01:42:30 --> 01:42:45 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's almost like, you know, the people that we like to root for are the Tyrion types or the Arya types who are these morally gray people and they might have to out with their opponents.
01:42:45 --> 01:42:56 [SPEAKER_01]: rather than just sort of brute force or just, you know, the virtue of their cause or I guess the you know just serving just as along the road or something like that.
01:42:56 --> 01:42:59 [SPEAKER_01]: But in order for that to be the case, they have to be kind of bright.
01:43:00 --> 01:43:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you kind of also admire the little fingers of the world and the, you know, the surces of the world who are like, you know, are you smart enough to get away with it?
01:43:10 --> 01:43:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Because that's also an interesting story.
01:43:13 --> 01:43:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, dunk is not any of this.
01:43:15 --> 01:43:17 [SPEAKER_01]: He's he's kind of simple.
01:43:17 --> 01:43:23 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, he kind of falls backwards into, you know, larger machinations that are beyond his control.
01:43:23 --> 01:43:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And he kind of punches his way out of it.
01:43:27 --> 01:43:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe just as he's done in the end, I don't know.
01:43:32 --> 01:43:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess the quote, it's a long, long convoluted way to ask you this question.
01:43:38 --> 01:43:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Does Dunk work in the morally gray world of Westoros because he is kind of a simple term?
01:43:46 --> 01:43:50 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I think that's kind of true, right?
01:43:50 --> 01:44:07 [SPEAKER_07]: I think that there's an interesting element too of, we talked about how kind of the class and sort of the, maybe some of the criticism of the class system and maybe even some of the religious aspects
01:44:07 --> 01:44:23 [SPEAKER_07]: on display, even though Donkis is sort of like he's aware of them, but he's not of them, which gives a different, like almost it gives us a different window into, um, into a West rose and, and sort of it's in the world that the Martin has built.
01:44:24 --> 01:44:36 [SPEAKER_07]: And, and because there's that sense of he doesn't know better, he's, he'd more pure of heart, I guess, for lack of a better
01:44:37 --> 01:44:58 [SPEAKER_07]: At the end and that's that and I think that's more than anything, not just to survive, I think more than anything what he does is he's at least in this moment he's surviving against that world, like he's trying to exist within it, but not to be of it and I think that that's what you end up rooting for maybe more than anything is you're rooting against the.
01:44:59 --> 01:45:29 [SPEAKER_07]: sort of the staining of his and again like pure is kind of a strong term but again if we look at him as a younger person someone who's trying to be noble and wanting to do the right thing as they've interesting that they've made him so much as we trust everything that he's chased at least maybe not by his own choices all the time but you know it is it's something that's a part of him so we're like he represents a certain level of purity that is not
01:45:29 --> 01:45:33 [SPEAKER_07]: He chooses almost ignorance, and that becomes almost a virtue.
01:45:33 --> 01:45:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I like that you use the phrase not oft-found.
01:45:42 --> 01:45:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Give this guy, give this guy one medieval novella.
01:45:45 --> 01:45:50 [SPEAKER_02]: He starts saying, not oft-found.
01:45:52 --> 01:45:54 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, if you don't mind, we've got to hurry up.
01:45:54 --> 01:45:56 [SPEAKER_07]: I have a loot lesson in a little bit.
01:45:58 --> 01:46:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you've touched on something really interesting that I want to talk about.
01:46:03 --> 01:46:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It's about the end of this story, but before we get to the end, when I read my synopsis.
01:46:07 --> 01:46:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the longest synopsis I've written?
01:46:09 --> 01:46:11 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot happens.
01:46:15 --> 01:46:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Dunk finds himself in a tower cell depressed and hungry, egg arrives with food, apologizes and brings him to Baylor.
01:46:21 --> 01:46:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Dunk learns that he is now at the wrong end of a Targaryen pride and propaganda scheme.
01:46:27 --> 01:46:31 [SPEAKER_01]: No doubt, they will take his hand in his foot if they can't have his head.
01:46:32 --> 01:46:36 [SPEAKER_01]: But Baylor seems to favor Dunks' cause and suggest a trial by combat.
01:46:36 --> 01:46:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Arian demands an even more ancient tradition called, Trial of Seven.
01:46:42 --> 01:46:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Dunk therefore must find six other knights to take up his cause.
01:46:46 --> 01:46:50 [SPEAKER_01]: The help of the fossil ways and egg, Dunk begins to recruit.
01:46:51 --> 01:46:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Darren takes Dunk aside and tells him about his dream and promises to take a dive during the contest.
01:46:58 --> 01:47:08 [SPEAKER_01]: The next day, Dunk is joined by Sir Lionel, Two Humpfries, and a Robin when Stefan Foss away to fix for the other side, Lionel dubs the younger Foss away a night.
01:47:09 --> 01:47:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Then Baylor joins the group for a full seven.
01:47:12 --> 01:47:21 [SPEAKER_01]: After a bit of unhorsing, the contest turns when Dunk rolls himself on top of Aryan's smashes his helmet with the shields until the Prince yields.
01:47:21 --> 01:47:29 [SPEAKER_01]: After the fight, Dunk pledges allegiance to Baylor just before the Targaryen Prince topples from a head wound.
01:47:29 --> 01:47:34 [SPEAKER_01]: After a funeral pire and a ceremony, Dunk returns to his alma.
01:47:35 --> 01:47:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Make our, visits dunk and talks of guilt in the gods, then he asks dunk to take egg as his official squire.
01:47:43 --> 01:47:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Dunk agrees, but not as a cattle knight, but as a hedge knight.
01:47:48 --> 01:47:52 [SPEAKER_01]: The next day, the two travelers make for Dorn in search of a good puppet show.
01:47:53 --> 01:47:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Alright, I want to talk with the end first.
01:47:56 --> 01:48:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I think that there's something about Westeros that where a good person can exist, but they will not remain good for long if they have an avenue to power.
01:48:13 --> 01:48:13 [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
01:48:13 --> 01:48:14 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
01:48:14 --> 01:48:17 [SPEAKER_07]: That's, I think, a really, well, good way to put it.
01:48:17 --> 01:48:19 [SPEAKER_07]: That's what I, we're kind of gathering from that.
01:48:19 --> 01:48:19 [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
01:48:20 --> 01:48:21 [SPEAKER_07]: Easy aware of this, you think?
01:48:22 --> 01:48:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
01:48:24 --> 01:48:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's a hint that he might be aware of this because when he's in the cell, I think he's thinking back to something Sir Arlin said that, you know, a hedge night is the only real night, because the hedge night isn't fighting for a Lord.
01:48:42 --> 01:48:49 [SPEAKER_01]: The hedge night can, you know, choose their own causes to fight for.
01:48:49 --> 01:48:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that they, they have the, they actually have the capability to choose virtue.
01:48:54 --> 01:49:09 [SPEAKER_01]: So when make our comes to him and says, look, you're gonna come live at the castle and you'll get better training and wink, wink, you'll, you know, you know, egg will be your squire.
01:49:10 --> 01:49:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I don't know if he comes to, there can, I don't know if he decides that that would just make him a thug.
01:49:19 --> 01:49:21 [SPEAKER_01]: But Martin's word, that would absolutely make him a thug.
01:49:21 --> 01:49:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, you know, he would be a gun for the Targaryens and I don't think he's smart enough to know that he would be choosing to be a gun for the Targaryens, but it could be that he's like, that's doesn't feel right to me.
01:49:35 --> 01:49:37 [SPEAKER_01]: There's something about that that doesn't feel right to me.
01:49:38 --> 01:49:49 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that that would be incongruous with with Sir Arlin's words, right, at least in terms of.
01:49:50 --> 01:50:09 [SPEAKER_07]: Arlin or Dunk, or Dunk, like Dunk is shaped and form like almost religiously devoted to this this idea of nighthood, maybe maybe not religiously, but almost it could even be naively devoted to this thing that maybe doesn't really exist, right?
01:50:09 --> 01:50:15 [SPEAKER_07]: It's part of the night's tales that are told and people get into being nice, maybe because of this sort.
01:50:15 --> 01:50:18 [SPEAKER_07]: It's almost like military, right?
01:50:18 --> 01:50:47 [SPEAKER_07]: you join the military in some cases because you want to protect the citizens and you want to protect your country and what it stands for or that's what a commercial with fantastic CGI told me that I could be a man of honor you know right so there's all these different things that go and then you get into it and then you know maybe maybe the more you're into it the more you climb up the ranks and then the more you're having to start to see how the sausages made and maybe it's a feels a little
01:50:47 --> 01:51:08 [SPEAKER_07]: That's been stripped because you're now focused on improving your station or trying to move up in the ranks and maybe you have a political career and so on and on and on it goes and so like that maybe those are those the origins of how you got there have now been stripped away I mean you could say that for just about almost anything I mean I suppose, you know,
01:51:08 --> 01:51:22 [SPEAKER_07]: to a lesser degree sporting, you know, like for the love of the game and then now it's, you know, endorsements and it got to worry about your brand and all those different things and so you start to move away from the thing that maybe you really enjoy or draw or drew you to it in the first place.
01:51:22 --> 01:51:25 [SPEAKER_07]: So he, it's a question.
01:51:25 --> 01:51:27 [SPEAKER_07]: I think that's interesting to ask you.
01:51:27 --> 01:51:41 [SPEAKER_07]: Does he have any awareness of this or does he just is he pushing away this thing that he thinks is corrupting or is he just so so laser focused on this is the path to to this is what being a night is all about and I will just continue down this path.
01:51:41 --> 01:52:06 [SPEAKER_01]: there's another little hint at this and and you know kudos to martin for like not hitting it squarely on the nose because it does lead to this kind of conversation but there's a moment when maker says look are you kidding me like that kid's a dragon's blood he's not made for sleeping under a tree and eating dry salted meat
01:52:06 --> 01:52:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And, and Dunk says, you know, he thinks for a little bit and he's like, you know what, I bet your Aryan has never had salted me in his life.
01:52:14 --> 01:52:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I bet you every bite of me he's ever taken was bloody.
01:52:18 --> 01:52:23 [SPEAKER_01]: As a way to say like, that guy has only eaten gourmet food at all his life.
01:52:24 --> 01:52:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that he's virtuous?
01:52:26 --> 01:52:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, right, right.
01:52:27 --> 01:52:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Clearly he's not virtuous, and then maybe there's some relation, maybe there's some correlation to the fact that he's been pampered and spoiled and he turned out rotten in the end.
01:52:38 --> 01:52:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:52:40 --> 01:52:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that there might be some notion in Dung's head, like, I look, I got a little view.
01:52:47 --> 01:52:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I got a little glimpse of what the world of power looks like, and kind of not interested anymore.
01:52:56 --> 01:53:01 [SPEAKER_07]: this is who I'm serving essentially, like even if it's not him specifically, you know, might as well be.
01:53:01 --> 01:53:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:53:01 --> 01:53:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:53:03 --> 01:53:03 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
01:53:03 --> 01:53:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So, Dung's a good person.
01:53:05 --> 01:53:12 [SPEAKER_01]: He, I think that I was even more convinced this time that his story begins with a lie.
01:53:12 --> 01:53:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:53:13 --> 01:53:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel pretty confident that he was never dubbed a night.
01:53:17 --> 01:53:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree.
01:53:18 --> 01:53:20 [SPEAKER_01]: There's two reasons, I think this.
01:53:20 --> 01:53:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Number one, when Raymond Fosterway says, look, just night me, you need someone.
01:53:26 --> 01:53:34 [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, ah, and it could be that he doesn't feel like, I'm not a hedge knight, and that would make you a fraud, too, or I was never dubbed.
01:53:34 --> 01:53:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how to do this.
01:53:35 --> 01:53:36 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know the words.
01:53:37 --> 01:53:38 [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know the words.
01:53:38 --> 01:53:43 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I think, I think, yes, and right now, so I think it's kind of both of those things.
01:53:43 --> 01:53:45 [SPEAKER_07]: I think it was really important when they went to,
01:53:46 --> 01:53:50 [SPEAKER_07]: It's very clever when he does it like it by going through like go to the left.
01:53:50 --> 01:53:51 [SPEAKER_07]: You go to the right.
01:53:51 --> 01:54:00 [SPEAKER_07]: You say this and you go back and it's like, I'm like, there's there's I don't think he knows that I'm like, I immediately was like, I don't think you put that in there unless you want to say it's show the complexity.
01:54:00 --> 01:54:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's like a letter G for every of one of the seven gods.
01:54:04 --> 01:54:06 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no way dunk knows all those words right.
01:54:06 --> 01:54:09 [SPEAKER_07]: You don't just go, yeah, you're a night now have at you.
01:54:09 --> 01:54:10 [SPEAKER_07]: You know, it's it's.
01:54:11 --> 01:54:21 [SPEAKER_07]: So I think that that's really key because like, yeah, I think immediately my mind went to like, well, I doubt he knows those, those any of that even if he heard it, like he probably doesn't remember it.
01:54:21 --> 01:54:27 [SPEAKER_07]: So which suggest that it's not, you know, it does suggest even then a little bit of imposter syndrome at least.
01:54:27 --> 01:54:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's one other time, I think he when he's in the mud, he sort of having self doubt and I think he uses the exact phrase, I'm not even a hedge knight.
01:54:38 --> 01:54:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that there's that little recognition, like what am I even doing here?
01:54:43 --> 01:54:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm not even real, by the end of this, he's absolutely real.
01:54:48 --> 01:54:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Who has a better claim to nighthood than the night who's teaching the Targaryen Prince had to be a night?
01:54:57 --> 01:54:57 [SPEAKER_01]: right.
01:54:57 --> 01:55:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So he's a good person and yet his stories built on a lie which makes him somewhat morally gray, you know?
01:55:07 --> 01:55:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah so so we get a little gray on there which I think is good it's good characterization.
01:55:12 --> 01:55:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Now I do think that there's something about this story that would make for a good television show but I wanted to ask you that.
01:55:22 --> 01:55:26 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a story fundamentally
01:55:26 --> 01:55:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Does a good person make for good television anymore.
01:55:31 --> 01:55:49 [SPEAKER_07]: Any more is a good question, especially if you've got game of thrones expectations, like we just were discussing, yeah, like you might be like, well, this is sort of sappy or, or you might think like, oh, this is just this is just baby Yoda and all over again, because yeah, that was a, that was successful.
01:55:49 --> 01:55:53 [SPEAKER_07]: So therefore, you know, like it's that of realizing that this is actually.
01:55:53 --> 01:55:58 [SPEAKER_07]: you know, this definitely feels more Disney plus than HBO Max.
01:55:58 --> 01:55:59 [SPEAKER_07]: Absolutely.
01:55:59 --> 01:55:59 [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
01:56:00 --> 01:56:01 [SPEAKER_07]: So I'm just like, well, where's the nudity, bro?
01:56:03 --> 01:56:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Some of those puppets.
01:56:05 --> 01:56:05 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
01:56:05 --> 01:56:06 [SPEAKER_07]: It's getting where it's going to be.
01:56:06 --> 01:56:06 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
01:56:06 --> 01:56:08 [SPEAKER_07]: There's a dirty puppet show off in the background somewhere.
01:56:09 --> 01:56:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
01:56:11 --> 01:56:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's going to make a good TV show.
01:56:13 --> 01:56:19 [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know why I think that there's a lot of reasons why this wouldn't make for a good TV show.
01:56:20 --> 01:56:21 [SPEAKER_07]: Why I think there's.
01:56:22 --> 01:56:24 [SPEAKER_07]: And I think there's sufficient action, right?
01:56:24 --> 01:56:38 [SPEAKER_07]: Especially at the end, I think that there, I think it was, I really enjoyed this last segment just to be able to, if you like, I was returning to some of the political stuff that I really enjoyed from these stories.
01:56:38 --> 01:56:43 [SPEAKER_07]: And so that was kind of a nice way to return to that to some degree.
01:56:43 --> 01:56:49 [SPEAKER_07]: And the action meant a little less to me than the consequence.
01:56:49 --> 01:57:19 [SPEAKER_07]: And I think that that's I think it's it's pretty well written that way, especially when you have that that really extensive description of how the tournament was going before yeah and like this is a little bit more there's a lot more brevity in this battle, which you would think that that would have been reserved for maybe a little bit more descriptor you know what happens pretty quick I was going to say you know all of my critique of the previous portion I really
01:57:20 --> 01:57:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just, I'm just gonna read this little section because I think it's fantastically written, but I was never confused during it.
01:57:31 --> 01:57:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So, the horses slammed together violently.
01:57:34 --> 01:57:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Armor crashing and clanging as thunder stumbled and dunks lands fell from his hand.
01:57:40 --> 01:57:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Then he was past his foe clutching at his saddle and a desperate effort to keep his seat.
01:57:46 --> 01:57:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Thunder lured sideways in the sloppy mud and dunk fell.
01:57:51 --> 01:57:53 [SPEAKER_01]: His rear legs slipping out from under.
01:57:53 --> 01:58:00 [SPEAKER_01]: They were sliding, spinning,
01:58:01 --> 01:58:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Lord, lashing out with his spurs, up Thunder, and somehow the old war horse found his feet again.
01:58:07 --> 01:58:21 [SPEAKER_01]: He could feel a sharp pain under his ribs, and his left arm was being pulled down, Aryan had driven his lands through oak, wool, and steel, three feet of splintered ash, and sharp irons stuck from his side.
01:58:22 --> 01:58:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Dunk reached over with his right hand, grasp a land, just below the head.
01:58:26 --> 01:58:35 [SPEAKER_01]: clenched his teeth and pulled it out of him with one savage yank, blood followed seeping through the rings of his male to redden his surcoat.
01:58:36 --> 01:58:38 [SPEAKER_01]: The world swam as he almost fell.
01:58:38 --> 01:58:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think excellent writing, maybe it's because
01:58:44 --> 01:58:50 [SPEAKER_01]: It's all from dunks perspective and he's experiencing it in real time in this passage.
01:58:50 --> 01:58:59 [SPEAKER_01]: He's not a spectator who's trying to take in all of these, like you said before, kind of like a montage or battle.
01:58:59 --> 01:59:02 [SPEAKER_07]: Right, it felt like a real time POV shot.
01:59:02 --> 01:59:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:59:02 --> 01:59:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And so for all of the reasons I didn't like the previous description of the tournament, the description of the trial of seven is just wonderful right.
01:59:11 --> 01:59:12 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I agree.
01:59:12 --> 01:59:20 [SPEAKER_01]: It was descriptive enough to make me think, you know, to kind of put me in dunks POV.
01:59:21 --> 01:59:22 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I rather enjoyed it.
01:59:22 --> 01:59:25 [SPEAKER_07]: I was actually surprised at how well I was able to keep up because I'm
01:59:26 --> 01:59:50 [SPEAKER_07]: Still working through, you know, names and relationships and everything, but felt like I was in there and it, and it helped create a sense of tension that I was kind of longing for not that there wasn't tension built up and other aspects of this story, but a battle scene in particular is going to require that right you need to feel like the stakes are pretty high and that the
01:59:51 --> 02:00:13 [SPEAKER_01]: outcome is not necessarily obvious right okay that leads me to my next point here kind of in between his power with bailer and the next day when he's you know gonna find out of these nights are gonna show up and fight for his cause he returns to his elm
02:00:14 --> 02:00:25 [SPEAKER_01]: and the thought crosses his mind, he'd not could just run and they might chase me, but I might get away, but then that would be the end of my dream to become a knight.
02:00:26 --> 02:00:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I think at that moment, because it crosses his mind, you have to think like, well, this is actually part of his character.
02:00:34 --> 02:00:40 [SPEAKER_01]: There is a bit of his character that entertains thoughts like, I could just run, right?
02:00:41 --> 02:00:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet,
02:00:42 --> 02:00:48 [SPEAKER_01]: the story that's been told up until this point is told in such a way where he cannot run.
02:00:48 --> 02:00:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why he can't run is because Martin has done well to establish the character of this guy.
02:00:58 --> 02:00:58 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
02:00:59 --> 02:01:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're a fan, you're watching this.
02:01:01 --> 02:01:04 [SPEAKER_01]: The smart play would just be to run,
02:01:05 --> 02:01:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes that's not the way the story can go.
02:01:08 --> 02:01:11 [SPEAKER_01]: The in fact the story can only go one way at this point.
02:01:11 --> 02:01:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the main climax of the book has to track with the established character patterns of the prior story.
02:01:23 --> 02:01:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
02:01:23 --> 02:01:36 [SPEAKER_01]: So you want a character that has that idea, you know, it crosses his mind, but because of the patterns that the reader has now come to appreciate, really there's only one choice to make.
02:01:37 --> 02:01:47 [SPEAKER_07]: And what I think is kind of fascinating about how it ends is that he does, in a sense, run like he leaves, like he leaves.
02:01:48 --> 02:01:49 [SPEAKER_07]: He leaves on his own terms.
02:01:50 --> 02:02:10 [SPEAKER_07]: he leaves on his own terms and so it's like I'd love that parallel of like he could just flee and then like be on the run but that's not being a night but now he he stay true to his code is his night at least his his vision of what a night is and now he's actually earned the right to go wherever he wants to go.
02:02:10 --> 02:02:20 [SPEAKER_07]: So it's kind of a, you know, it's a nice way to sort of call back and just oppose the notion of retreat because it's not now it's not retreat now it is, you know, moving forward.
02:02:20 --> 02:02:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's right.
02:02:22 --> 02:02:40 [SPEAKER_07]: I was a little taken by the, not the happily ever after, but there is definitely a good, good thing happening to a good dude, which, yeah, but it's funny because I didn't as I had the expectation.
02:02:41 --> 02:02:43 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, here we go in the battle, right?
02:02:43 --> 02:02:47 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, you know, what's, how's this going to, how's this going to end up?
02:02:47 --> 02:02:57 [SPEAKER_07]: Because he's pretty wounded, you know, and I remember looking at the pages at one point to see what was the, like, where the stopping point was.
02:02:58 --> 02:03:03 [SPEAKER_07]: And then there's a picture of, you know, egg with the puppet gal.
02:03:04 --> 02:03:09 [SPEAKER_07]: And in my mind, I'm like, oh, dunk dies.
02:03:10 --> 02:03:12 [SPEAKER_07]: That's why there's only these two and not dunk in this picture, right?
02:03:13 --> 02:03:15 [SPEAKER_07]: So I've already starting to figure this is where it's going.
02:03:16 --> 02:03:20 [SPEAKER_07]: And so then, but I got so wrapped in the story that I kind of put all of that away.
02:03:20 --> 02:03:22 [SPEAKER_07]: Like the expectations were gone.
02:03:22 --> 02:03:25 [SPEAKER_07]: The, that I see a spoiler, that's gone.
02:03:25 --> 02:03:38 [SPEAKER_07]: I just, so I was, I really was kind of surprised at how satisfied I was, that even though there were expectations that were kind of, you know, maybe subverted or not maybe intentionally by Martin, but just in terms of my own expectations.
02:03:38 --> 02:03:40 [SPEAKER_07]: I didn't have a problem with it at all.
02:03:40 --> 02:03:51 [SPEAKER_07]: I just really was, I think he just great job of moving us through in such a small time frame granted, having an understanding, you know, at least from the TV series that I've seen.
02:03:51 --> 02:03:52 [SPEAKER_07]: I have a better understanding of this world.
02:03:53 --> 02:04:06 [SPEAKER_07]: So I kind of got a little bit of a cheat code going in, but I do feel like I understood how the house works and how the Targaryens operate and what the stakes are and what his
02:04:07 --> 02:04:30 [SPEAKER_07]: you know what that means and for him to be able to be granted that is kind of like a it really does kind of that's the surprise right i mean that that at the end it's like okay we'll just take the young to hergarian friends then and uh and hope it all works out like that's kind of a big move actually right i think that if this was like a game of thrones or house of the dragon story
02:04:31 --> 02:04:34 [SPEAKER_01]: you would have, the main POV character would have been like Baylor.
02:04:35 --> 02:04:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Like here we have Baylor Breakspir, the only virtuous Targaryen in the sea of morally gray, and he's doing his best to be a virtuous man and have power at the same time.
02:04:47 --> 02:04:50 [SPEAKER_01]: and it's not working out, but in the end, what does he choose?
02:04:50 --> 02:04:59 [SPEAKER_01]: He chooses to defend this hedgenite who's been wrongly accused, and of course in Martin's world, you get rewarded with death.
02:04:59 --> 02:05:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, yeah, yeah, for sure.
02:05:01 --> 02:05:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, that's the house of the dragon story.
02:05:04 --> 02:05:08 [SPEAKER_01]: You just shift the POV a little bit, and you know, the good guys win in the end.
02:05:08 --> 02:05:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
02:05:09 --> 02:05:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, if you look at this from sort of the Targaryen point of view, you could totally return to that, ah, bailer, you stupid son of a bitch.
02:05:20 --> 02:05:29 [SPEAKER_01]: If, if you were to just made the right political decision, you could have survived and done better for the kingdom in the end because the kingdom needs good king and you're the only one that could be a good king.
02:05:30 --> 02:05:38 [SPEAKER_01]: But, um, you know, it's, it's like, uh, this is not a house for the dragon kind of
02:05:38 --> 02:05:48 [SPEAKER_07]: beneath the album where, you know, Dunk is even having this, like, I mean, he's grown up a lot, right in this, in this short period of time, because he's seen some shit.
02:05:48 --> 02:05:53 [SPEAKER_07]: So he's like, is my foot worth worth the kingdom, you know?
02:05:53 --> 02:05:56 [SPEAKER_07]: And it's a great, it's a great way to put it, right?
02:05:56 --> 02:05:59 [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I mean, it's, uh, and I think the answer was kind of like probably not,
02:06:00 --> 02:06:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, right.
02:06:01 --> 02:06:05 [SPEAKER_01]: That's maker's views like dude the kingdom's not going to need your foot.
02:06:05 --> 02:06:28 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, your your legacy is going to be like all that for a hedge night You know like instead of it being like there's no hedge night tail that's gonna pass on from his perspective That's going to to say well because he did the right thing and he challenged this great house And he put his life on the line because he believed in the morals of what he did is like no the kingdom's worse off because of this hedge night and
02:06:28 --> 02:06:30 [SPEAKER_07]: And that's an interesting way to put the legacy.
02:06:30 --> 02:06:32 [SPEAKER_07]: So it kind of puts it into also into perspective.
02:06:32 --> 02:06:35 [SPEAKER_07]: It's like, well, he chooses that, right?
02:06:35 --> 02:06:47 [SPEAKER_07]: By leaving, by deciding to go on, he could have insulated his legacy by becoming a proper knight and working for the house.
02:06:47 --> 02:06:55 [SPEAKER_07]: But in a way, he kind of says, well, I'm going to once again, the way he was doing with the tournament, I'm going to bed on myself.
02:06:55 --> 02:07:01 [SPEAKER_07]: when I bet on myself, and I bet on my ability to create my legacy, and maybe the story's not done.
02:07:01 --> 02:07:06 [SPEAKER_07]: So by leaving his going to the tournament of life, if you will.
02:07:06 --> 02:07:11 [SPEAKER_01]: It does feel a little bit like, what do you mean walk the earth?
02:07:12 --> 02:07:13 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, totally.
02:07:13 --> 02:07:14 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
02:07:15 --> 02:07:17 [SPEAKER_05]: What's she gonna do now?
02:07:17 --> 02:07:20 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's what I've been sitting here contemplating.
02:07:21 --> 02:07:24 [SPEAKER_05]: First, I'm gonna deliver this case to Marcelus.
02:07:25 --> 02:07:28 [SPEAKER_05]: Then, basically, I'm just going to walk there.
02:07:28 --> 02:07:29 [SPEAKER_05]: What should mean, walk to earth?
02:07:30 --> 02:07:34 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, like, cane and kung fu, walk from place to place, meet people, get an adventures.
02:07:34 --> 02:07:37 [SPEAKER_05]: And how long do you intend to walk to earth?
02:07:37 --> 02:07:39 [SPEAKER_05]: Two God puts me where He wants me to be.
02:07:39 --> 02:07:40 [SPEAKER_05]: And what if you don't do that?
02:07:41 --> 02:07:42 [SPEAKER_05]: It takes forever than I walk forever.
02:07:44 --> 02:07:46 [SPEAKER_05]: So you decided to be a bump?
02:07:46 --> 02:07:47 [SPEAKER_05]: I'll just be jewels.
02:07:47 --> 02:07:48 [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks, and no more, no less.
02:07:49 --> 02:07:49 [SPEAKER_07]: No jewels.
02:07:49 --> 02:07:50 [SPEAKER_07]: You're going to be a bump.
02:07:51 --> 02:07:52 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm going to be a hedge knight.
02:07:52 --> 02:07:54 [SPEAKER_07]: I'm just going to be done.
02:07:55 --> 02:07:55 [SPEAKER_07]: no less.
02:07:58 --> 02:08:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I, uh, I liked that, uh, when Baylor shows up, he's in the black armor, no one's expecting him, you know, it's it's sort of like the Targaryens against everyone else.
02:08:12 --> 02:08:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And you need one more night to make this work.
02:08:17 --> 02:08:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And against all odds, the best night in the kingdom is coming to your side.
02:08:21 --> 02:08:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And then when he shows up, it's sort of like this, a little bit of a surprise because he's wearing the wrong armor.
02:08:30 --> 02:08:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And you realize, because of the meticulous world building that's happened so far in this story,
02:08:40 --> 02:09:09 [SPEAKER_01]: realize this changes everything because there's members of the king's guard over there they are not allowed to strike this guy right so that changes things it's a cheat code yeah that's right and on top of that uh he's he's actually pretty smart he's he's going to use these turny lances because they're four feet longer than the other lances and that you know they're lighter and they'll break more easily but if you just want to unhorse a guy
02:09:10 --> 02:09:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It's better to have a longer lance.
02:09:12 --> 02:09:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's all of the strategy seems to make sense.
02:09:17 --> 02:09:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have never seen.
02:09:19 --> 02:09:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I do not know this sport at all.
02:09:25 --> 02:09:27 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's written in such a way where it's like, oh, no, I get it.
02:09:27 --> 02:09:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I get the way that it's going to work.
02:09:30 --> 02:09:30 [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
02:09:30 --> 02:09:39 [SPEAKER_07]: And I do think that the, like I said to you, like it would be told from the Baylor perspective, if there's sort of like a full game of thrones.
02:09:39 --> 02:09:40 [SPEAKER_07]: sequence.
02:09:40 --> 02:09:45 [SPEAKER_07]: And because it is, it's like, it's like, Dunk, Baylor has a sort of an affinity for him.
02:09:45 --> 02:09:51 [SPEAKER_07]: And maybe it is sort of that reminder of how you got into all of this in the first place, right?
02:09:52 --> 02:10:04 [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe it, it, you know, rekindled sort of this passion for Chivalry, you know, and so there's just like, this is what, you know, this guy's representing what we all kind of thought we were doing.
02:10:05 --> 02:10:09 [SPEAKER_07]: This feels right, you know, and like, so maybe it is just that kind of, and so then Dunk,
02:10:10 --> 02:10:19 [SPEAKER_07]: You know, you could also say maybe dunk legumes to go as and continue on as a hedge night almost as to honor, you know, the reason maybe why Baylor got into this mess in the first place.
02:10:19 --> 02:10:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that the reverse could be true.
02:10:21 --> 02:10:27 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like bailer against all odds, actually needs a good night in Westeros.
02:10:28 --> 02:10:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
02:10:28 --> 02:10:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I think from Bayley's perspective, he's like, holy shit, I don't think that these things existed.
02:10:34 --> 02:10:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
02:10:35 --> 02:10:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought everyone was as corruptible as, as, you know, the people I normally meet.
02:10:41 --> 02:10:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And what's his crime?
02:10:44 --> 02:10:53 [SPEAKER_01]: He was defending a puppeteer who was being manhandled by some guy who was known to be kind of an asshole.
02:10:55 --> 02:10:56 [SPEAKER_01]: That's his crime.
02:10:56 --> 02:11:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that there's something about dunk that kind of almost revives
02:11:03 --> 02:11:12 [SPEAKER_01]: the hope of the virtue of nighthood in Baylor and almost inspires him to make the right decision.
02:11:12 --> 02:11:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, of course, it's a...
02:11:17 --> 02:11:20 [SPEAKER_01]: This is exactly the kind of guy who's going to die in Marna's world, right?
02:11:20 --> 02:11:21 [SPEAKER_01]: He's like total.
02:11:22 --> 02:11:26 [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, but you can kind of see like these two diamonds in the rough.
02:11:27 --> 02:11:33 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no way both of them are going to survive, but maybe Duncan kind of carry on this legacy.
02:11:34 --> 02:11:47 [SPEAKER_07]: And, you know, maybe you only need one good night in the world for a good story.
02:11:47 --> 02:11:50 [SPEAKER_07]: And he was in position to be in this great king.
02:11:51 --> 02:11:53 [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe there's hope for a gun with a guy like this.
02:11:55 --> 02:11:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes, yeah, yeah, sure, sure.
02:11:58 --> 02:12:07 [SPEAKER_01]: So we send Duncan Egg seemingly off to Dorn.
02:12:08 --> 02:12:10 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they're on the road.
02:12:10 --> 02:12:13 [SPEAKER_01]: These two are out there in the world.
02:12:13 --> 02:12:18 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you can kind of imagine like wherever they go, they may get an adventures.
02:12:18 --> 02:12:20 [SPEAKER_01]: They might, you know, fight for a good cause.
02:12:20 --> 02:12:21 [SPEAKER_01]: They might protect the innocent.
02:12:22 --> 02:12:25 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very hopeful end to this event.
02:12:25 --> 02:12:26 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it's shocking, so.
02:12:26 --> 02:12:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I like these two guys and I'm kind of curious to see what they get.
02:12:30 --> 02:12:31 [SPEAKER_01]: What kind of trouble do these two get into?
02:12:32 --> 02:12:41 [SPEAKER_07]: You got a little bit of an odd couple thing going on, which is nice, uh, you know, uh, you got the brains and the bond, um,
02:12:41 --> 02:12:57 [SPEAKER_07]: And do you think that there would be a possibility that since, you know, this is a sort of standalone story, if this goes well, that there will be a push from the HBO show runners to create a second season out of something like this.
02:12:58 --> 02:13:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that they have at least three seasons mapped out because there are three novellas.
02:13:04 --> 02:13:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that this first one will be like the six episodes of the first season and who knows, you know, if it does well, maybe the second novella kind of gets expanded of it.
02:13:14 --> 02:13:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Gotcha.
02:13:15 --> 02:13:20 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, maybe the second novella turns into a ten episode season.
02:13:21 --> 02:13:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm kind of curious, like I don't think that I don't have any doubts that I'll enjoy it.
02:13:28 --> 02:13:34 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah, that's especially given, like you said, there's just an appetite for a certain type of story.
02:13:35 --> 02:13:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
02:13:38 --> 02:13:42 [SPEAKER_07]: Um, maybe maybe people are like, nah, this is a nice little break.
02:13:43 --> 02:13:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think that they could, if very well could be, it's like, we don't need house of cards right now.
02:13:51 --> 02:13:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, like we can read house of cards in the news.
02:13:55 --> 02:13:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, exactly.
02:13:57 --> 02:14:26 [SPEAKER_01]: uh... give me a give me a superman story that's that's what we need right now and this feels a little bit more like superman yeah could be it could be the right tale for the right time very well very well could be uh... notable introductions in the story none that i could see uh... because it's the end of story uh... notable departures in the story well both humphries
02:14:27 --> 02:14:49 [SPEAKER_01]: uh... we say goodbye to um... bailer break spear the the most storied night of his generation and uh... we say goodbye to any accusations against dunk for his wrongdoing and that concludes our coverage of the hitchner was a great
02:14:55 --> 02:15:10 [SPEAKER_04]: I promise you, I won't kiss you again if you ask me to.
02:16:05 --> 02:16:16 [SPEAKER_05]: Come on, and a cocoon of horror.