Severance - S02E04 - Woe's Hollow

[00:00:00] Hello Dieter. Are you in sync with the rhythms of the forest? I spilt my lineage upon the soil. What the fuck is this show? Don't pervert a handbook passage to me, okay? Welcome to a Lorehounds and Properly Howard joint production covering Severance on Apple TV Plus Season 2 Episode 4 Woes Hollow. I'm David and yes, I do keep my facilities stocked with four ply tissue.

[00:00:34] With me today, he once lived in the woods as a pauper, Anthony. Hello, hello. And you cannot trust a word out of his Mount Banks mouth even televisually, Steve. Yep, that's right. I like to call him chaos's whore. There were so many good one-liners. I was like, uh, can I use that one? Unfortunately, John isn't with us today. He is currently in concert with the Musics of the Woods.

[00:01:03] And he'll be back next week. Hmm. Forcing them to hear him spill his lineage. Quick housekeeping before we get into the episode, you can get ad-free versions of this podcast without a subscription by spending five bucks on what we call a season pass. You also get a whole bunch of bonus episodes that we're calling the Supply Closet. There's a link in the show notes. I've had a conversation with Mark from Nevermind the Music about the main theme song.

[00:01:33] And then I've had two conversations with Nicole about brainwave oscillations and the questions that Ragabe was asking Mark and where personality lives in the physiology of the brain. Anthony, I believe you've got something on deck coming for us with one of these bonus episodes. Yes, it's a great surprise. Excellent. We'll keep that there. So that's for regular monthly subscribers and season pass subscribers. Again, five bucks, one-time purchase. You're good to go.

[00:02:01] And yeah, we've got a few more of those bonus episodes planned, so stay tuned. Head to our Discord for a real-time chat about the show or send emails to severance at thelorehounds.com, where Nancy, our hand of the pod, will be glad to collect and collate your submissions. And remember, please do – I know we say it every time, but if you like, rate, and review, it helps us in the standings on Apple's podcast rankings.

[00:02:31] Please try to enjoy each hot take equally and not show preference for any above the others. Anthony, what did you think of this episode? Still processing. Just finished my first watch no less than 20 minutes ago. Fresh, hot. These are hot, hot takes. Yeah, that's right.

[00:02:48] I think about a good – like almost up until the very end, I thought this was like all existing on like a dreamscape. Like they're all sort of projected their consciousness onto some kind of unreal world, you know, like brain and bats kind of thing. Right. Now, I don't think that that's true now.

[00:03:20] And I don't know what to make of all of the new problems this presented. So, solved one of our questions and then proposed, you know, nine other questions. Steve? Well, I feel vindicated. You know, I've been pretty confident about the big twist. Mm-hmm.

[00:03:49] And I was – I mean, I did not expect it to be revealed this episode. I was still holding onto it even throughout the love scene. You know, I'm like, no, no. I was more convinced during the love scene that it was Helena. And so that was – I was just very surprised to see that to get revealed, especially in the way that it did. I think it's some of John Turturro's best work.

[00:04:17] He was so menacing yet still really convincing in his character's progression. I'm just fascinated by the use of eyes as a symbol and as just a way to sort of frame this entire episode.

[00:04:39] I can't help but think about the – essentially the non-consensual love scene and what that means for Mark S. is essentially, I mean, he lost his virginity to a stranger. It's a bit of a power imbalance there, right?

[00:05:02] You see an actual fire for the first time and lose your virginity all in one night. That's quite something. That's a good night. You know the episode is like so full of crazy things that even the innies are kind of like just sort of interested in the fact that there's duplicates of them wandering around. Right, right. Like we're all captivated with so many other things and it's like, oh yeah.

[00:05:29] And then there were these like kind of shoddy facsimiles that were just sort of there as goalposts or markers, so to speak. I was most impressed by the custom bespoke marshmallows. Yeah. Just tragic that they couldn't have the marshmallows. Right. It was pretty cold to just throw them all in the – well, pretty hot.

[00:05:58] What about you, David? What was your takeaway from this? Well, it's a huge departure from tone and pace of where we've been. And again, it's just the show is flexing all over the place. It's so confident. It can do something like this. There was no credit sequence. Like we went straight into the episode. The blue is dominant everywhere.

[00:06:26] There wasn't as much sound design as there was in the last episode, but I'd still really encourage everyone to listen with headphones because the ambient sound is really interesting. On a technical note, I have to say these people really know what they're doing with lighting and filming. The skin tones are perfectly being captured with a really complex, subtle lighting.

[00:06:54] And I think part of it is the cameras, but you've also got some of the best people working on this. So I just continue to be impressed with it. And yeah, this was not an episode I was expecting in any way, shape, or form from content, in plot mechanics, in where we're going and how this is going to affect the plot.

[00:07:22] But it's, yeah, I'm just kind of stunned by what they've been doing. I wanted to throw in a really quick piece of feedback. Charlie K wrote in, and this is kind of directed to you, Steve, that, you know, when we were talking about the sound design. Charlie says there's something about the sounds in the show that drive my dogs absolutely crazy.

[00:07:45] In re-watching season one before season two premiere, I noticed a couple of episodes in the sound design of, what is he saying? Oh, I'm not getting his email here. Making, well, anyway, in the sound design of season two specifically, makes his two large dogs anxious to the point of uncontrollable shaking. They want to sit on top of my wife and I. We've watched the show with headphones since then.

[00:08:12] And he says he knows that you've mentioned your dogs before, Steve. And he was wondering if you also notice any weird feedback with your dogs. No, not necessarily. And we have pretty good sound. We've got some pretty nice Kef speakers that do a lot of really good work. And I actually, these guys watch it at least twice because I've watched it a second time with all of them.

[00:08:41] And they're usually pretty mellow. But I do know that the more tense I get or that my wife and I will get during the show, the more they'll feed off that energy. Okay. So I would say that our dogs most of the time would be reacting to our, you know, maybe the perception of our anxiety. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, that isn't to say that there isn't some sort of a sonic, you know, because they're like one of the, it's like a lot of ways to correct dogs. You can do it sonically, right?

[00:09:10] I mean, there are, you know, my wife has a grooming shop. And so there's these little like handheld devices that will send out like a little vibration or, and it, it, it, it, they pick up on it and they just sort of like will kind of stop them in their tracks or they'll, it'll cause them to sort of redirect. So, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised with all the different work that's going on from a sound perspective that they might be hitting a frequency that, that could be affecting some dogs for sure.

[00:09:37] Speaking of feedback, can we just call out, was it Aaron from Radioactive Ramblings? Yes. Who questioned the, the identity of Helena as he just sort of was a kind of poo-pooed our theory crafting? Yeah, I think he was on the Discord today, eating, eating crow. Yeah, I think that we've established that he can just not be trusted for forever.

[00:10:03] No one should ever pay attention to anything he has to say about this show ever again. So go take a listen to his podcast, Radioactive Ramblings, and you can hear more of his lies. That's right. Yeah, he's, he's, he's working for Lumen. He's trying to keep you off the scent. So, uh, Aaron, we would accept a voice, uh, message, uh, apologizing profusely.

[00:10:30] Um, please keep it under 30 seconds long. I want to bring in one quick other piece of feedback from Stefan M, uh, who writes in by email. Something occurred to me while listening to your most recent Severn podcast, the use of letters throughout the show. For instance, Mark S. Dylan G. I started thinking about Heli R. Why change her last initial? Obviously, they went to avoid any clues that she could be Helena Egan.

[00:10:58] But is the first letter of her last name that much of a clue? Especially since, one, they've changed her first name. And two, there's no evidence that the Innies even know that there's another Egan after James? Um, could it be that we're not seeing Heli R. On the Severed floor, but we're not seeing Helena either? Perhaps unlike other Severed employees, Heli was designed for a specific purpose, getting Mark to complete Cold Harbor. He obviously didn't do it after Heli R.

[00:11:28] Joined the team. Maybe now we're seeing the next version of Heli, Heli S. The second thing I thought of is Rickon's book. Obviously, it's titled The U U R. But that could easily become the U period, U period, R period. Which brings me back to Helena. Heli R could become L-E-R. And of course, Gemma Scout's Innie Miss Casey could be Miss K-C.

[00:11:55] And it's a bit weak, but even Mark's niece, Eleanor, could be L-N-R. What does this all mean? I have no clue. But that's for you smart guys to figure out. So, finally, just a side note. Is this feedback sent? I'm just curious. Is this feedback sent before or after this most recent episode? Before this most recent episode. All right. Okay. Finally, just a side note about your conversation on pouches. They aren't required to be considered a mammal, but mammals can have them.

[00:12:21] And if they do, that makes them marsupials, a subcategory of mammals, which includes kangaroos and possums. Oh, and finally, Lost is the second best TV show of all time after The Leftovers. If you ever want to have a guest on to discuss the greatness of the show, I'm definitely available. Thanks for the pod. All right. Thank you, Stefan. Steven. Any thoughts or theories on this letter sequencing thing?

[00:12:48] I've been thinking, because I remember I mentioned like Rick Ann, you know, being Rick Ann. And then we even started, because there's a lot of that type of thing. And again, it could be all just a form of misdirection. But, I mean, there's a lot. I mean, the letters show up in Irving's dream. The letters for Egan are all throughout making the images. Yeah.

[00:13:15] On the computer screen when he's with Bert and then the gaunt bride of woe. Right. The letters on the screen resolve into like a shape of an eye. But the letters, they are all, there are the word, the letters for Egan are all present on the screen. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:33] And, you know, there's so much done with acronyms and even the, which I don't know if it's to add another layer of conspiracy theory or trying to figure out what's going on with the ORTBO being, you know, an acronym that can be anagram to robot. Oh, I didn't pick up on that. All right. I wonder if that's, you know, things like that.

[00:13:59] Like, because we talk about all the time how nothing feels accidental, even if it's to keep us off the scent. So adding the, like, because I mean, ORTBO is so specific and it's just like those letters. So, I mean, for me, I was like, oh, what robot? You know, I immediately started thinking robot. What is that? Is that, is that take me off the clones or is it just trying to take me, you know, to another spot? Or is it just like, yes, all of that. You know, it's hard to, and then in this one.

[00:14:28] I have a few ideas about that, but let's wait until we get to the. The episode proper. Yeah. I think it has to do with something about the, these twin. You think it, you think it's Tobor? I was just kind of thinking of it as that corporate predilection just to make acronyms out of almost anything, even when they don't sound proper. Right. Yeah. And then they, just the use of names, right? I mean, like how the severed, we get their first name and not their last.

[00:14:57] And then we're not to know the first names of the, of, of the supposedly unsevered. Right. I mean, like that was very clear in the last episode previous that, that they could not say who Seth was or, you know. And then of course it comes out wonderfully, you know, even, even in just in terms of just, well, we get to all that, but just in terms of kind of breaking the power structure and the use of the name being kind of a significant moment in, in Byrd's uprising.

[00:15:27] I have a starting to develop a theory, which we can talk about later, but I'll just start out there really quickly. Is Irv integrated? I wonder. Has he gone through reintegration? And he's tall. I think somebody brought it up somewhere and we didn't get a specific feedback, but I think it was in the discord somewhere. Just something about his, you know, he's, he's trained, he's on the threshold on sort of both sides at times.

[00:15:56] You know, there's the phone call, there's the paintings, there's the, there's the black ooze. And I just wonder what's going on with him. And he's got the names list. He says that the, my any got the message, you know, so obviously there's. There's something about what Bert, which makes this episode even more captivating at the end, which is sort of like, all right. Does, is he, is any aware? Is any, is his, any is aware that his Audi knows something.

[00:16:26] So he may, he may have, may have operated the way he did to being willing to sacrifice, knowing that, that you're trusting that his Audi has enough information to keep this going, especially with finding out that he no longer works there. It was interesting to this, the last three episodes. We haven't gotten John Turturro on screen as much, right? He's been present, but not heavily. So, and this one was just a monster performance from Turturro.

[00:16:56] And I even loved the, like when he's on the ice, when we first get there, the sort of rakish tilt he has to his hat. And I, and I guess Turturro is a noted, a noted sartorialist himself. And so he's like always styling himself really well, but just the, just the performance, just the vocal and intensity and his presence being quiet. When the moment is quiet, being strong. Yes, Seth. Like when he uses that word Seth, you know, so.

[00:17:26] Yeah, it just spits it out. Oh. It's, it's, it almost is a way of saying like, like it's, I get the last word. I know now, I, I now know something else. You know, the power dynamic has shifted. As far as I'm concerned, we are now on a first name basis, both of us.

[00:17:43] And, and Milchick is so sort of neutered and powerless that he has to shout and sort of scream at Irv to try to maintain control where normally he's very quiet and, you know, very, very smooth. And in this one, he's on the verge of, of losing it because he does it. He, he feels the, that Irv is no longer under his sway. Well, yeah, it's a lot.

[00:18:09] I mean, there's a lot of elements here that this whole scene or this whole episode and Anthony can maybe chime in with, if he agrees is this felt like a youth group retreat. And, and I've been a few on a few of those myself.

[00:18:22] And then it's like, and it's, and then, you know, they start to rebel ever so, so subtly where it's just like, I'm not buying this sermon or I'm not buying what you, and then it's like, and you, and because it almost feels like, like a lot of times these folks are like never considered the possibility that, that what they're selling won't be bought. That they just kind of go to this, this, well, I'm, I'm just going to start taking away goodies and I'm just going to be disappointed. And now I'm just going to have to resort to yelling.

[00:18:50] And, and Bert just takes it to this level where he just, that, that stare down at the end where Milchak is just, you know, steel jawed and trying to do everything he can to convey the, the ultimate disappointment and basically saying, I'm going to completely eradicate you. And then Totoro has this little smirk. He looks him up and down and walks away with confidence. Like, yeah, cause that's the only move you have, but I'm not done is sort of embedded in that.

[00:19:17] It's, it's just so powerful with so little being said. Yeah. Have either of you seen a eight episode television show called the night of that was starring John Totoro? He's a defense. Yeah. I watched the first couple episodes before it got goofy. It was on HBO. Uh, it was just an incredible performance by him. So I would recommend it.

[00:19:46] Uh, it's really, really good. It's a bit of a, it's a crime drama mini series where he's a criminal defense attorney and, uh, there's a murder and all this kind of stuff, but it's, it's not what you think. And, uh, it was really good. Anyway, uh, let's take a quick break. And then when we come back, we'll get into the episode proper.

[00:20:16] Nicole, did you ever notice how the sign by Ace of Bass has really strange key changes? I did not, Mark. I'm a real person. Well, let me tell you about it. I'll let you talk about neuroscience gobbledygook. Yes. I thought you'd never ask. This is the Nevermind the Music podcast. We're one psychologist. And one musician. Deep dive into the songs you love. So you don't have to. And there's plenty of time to get off topic. From semi-charmed life to the way you move. And who could forget the crossroads? Is it the crossroads or the crossroads?

[00:20:45] Save it for the episode, Mark. Listen to Nevermind the Music. Wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Right. Let's start off with our outline. John, even though he is in rhythm with the crickets, he did find time for us today to write outlines. So thanks, John, for doing that.

[00:21:10] Our first, well, our topics for today are finding Milchick, camping, Irving's woe, and the fucking mole. So starting off with finding Milchick, the innies awaken on a frozen lake in Dieter Egan National Forest, where they find a recording of Mr. Milchick welcoming them to a journey to find Woe's Hollow to allow their innies to see the outside world. They follow doppelgangers of themselves to Scissors Cave, where the innies find the fourth appendix

[00:21:40] of Pierre, dedicated to his lost twin brother Dieter. On their way to Woe's Hollow, they come across a, well, John says maimed seal carcass here. We don't know, a carcass of some kind, which Irving wants to eat. He always crept like this, at this hour. Once concealed by Flora, my brother unfastened himself.

[00:22:07] The dim of his fervor fell strangely into concert with the music of the wood. His ugly thrust found rhythm with the trill of the crickets, and the moaning of the wind, and the snowfall's yearly fall. Dieter became, on that night, an instrument of nature. And nature played Dieter with elegance.

[00:22:36] I had no choice but to listen as he spilt his lineage upon the soil. Did either of you read or listen to the audiobook yet of the UUR that Apple released? No, I did spill my soil. I did spill my lineage onto the soil, though. No, I tried. I didn't, you'll be surprised to find out I couldn't make the technology work.

[00:23:08] I haven't listened to it fully, but I got about at least halfway, and there's a part in it where Rickon talks about his parents, who are performance artists who call themselves Hump Dumpster. And he himself, Rickon, is a piece of performance art.

[00:23:30] And he talks about he had a brother in the womb who was art, the embodiment of art. And not like a real brother, but like he was, he's brother to artistic expression, to the capital A art. And I found it really interesting here is that, you know, we have this parallel with Kier and his brother Dieter, who, you know, they shared wombs.

[00:24:00] And so there were parts, there were a couple of parts of the passage that were almost seemed to overlap. The words almost are in parallel with each other. It's funny that you say that, because when I saw the book in the cave, I thought, this is going to be a totally repurposed, the UUR. And so then I was kind of disappointed that it wasn't that. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:25] But maybe, you know, maybe there are some thematic parallels here. Yeah, I think it warrants a little bit more investigation. And then when they're around the campfire later and Hellie's, you know, laughing at the story, it's more this first part of the story than the second part of the story that she's laughing at. Because this is the part where it's really describing his communion with nature. Okay.

[00:24:55] I have a lot to say about that. I'm wondering if we're, are we there? We're going to talk about this right now? Yes. Or do you want to wait on this? Let's go. Let's go. Okay. So Hellie, I mean, this, you're right, Steve. This totally reminded me of like some kind of church youth group retreat where the adults,

[00:25:17] like they have this agenda to sort of deepen the spirituality of these adolescent rapscallions. And they do, man, they just, they plan, they plan, they've got this whole thing set up so that you'll have this really kind of spiritual moment in nature, right? Mountaintop experience. Mountaintop experience. You want to create a sense of community.

[00:25:46] You want, you know, you want these adolescents to have some kind of spiritual maturing moment, right? Walking in the footsteps of their, you know, their spiritual leader. Yeah, that's right. The kids are there because there's the possibility of sex. And it's like their hormones are just going nuts.

[00:26:11] And so they're like, yeah, I'll go camping with, in a co-ed environment. Right. Because this is that, that age and you're in close proximity for several days. Yeah. And there are certainly times to be able to be nocturnal. And, and escape the eyes of the chaperones. Yes. Even if it's. I speak from experience. Even if it is not realistic that you're going to sneak in to a tent and offer your virginity to someone.

[00:26:41] Maybe, maybe just some over the shirt stuff by a lake. There's the hope of it dominates every thought of these young folk. And of course, we've been talking about how they are so innocent and I guess in their minds, they're so young that they get treated like children. Right. And so the whole thing with Milchik, like showing them the pictures of the story. That wasn't so good.

[00:27:10] They're all leaning into. That's the other thing is like, as, as, as childish as he's treating them, they're responding in kind. Right. Okay. So all of that, I'm kind of sort of reading on that level. But then when we find out for certain that Hellyar is Helena, it makes me wonder like how much of this is just staged and what is the purpose of this? Because did, did Milchik and Helena have this all choreographed ahead of time?

[00:27:39] Like they were going to have some kind of falling out. And of course, that was sort of going to bond the group against Milchik or is it going to divide the group amongst each other? Like what is the end goal of this thing? And then of course, it brings you to a whole different abusive element. If you think of Helena as the adult and Mark S as the, as a, as a child, this gets really dark really fast. Right.

[00:28:07] There's a lot that begs to be answered. Right. Because, because she's got the agency and theoretically, well, so, so here's the thing, right? So what we, what we don't know for sure is how much of this lore that the severed folks get is the same lore that is outside. Right.

[00:28:30] So like, so, so she might've actually been genuinely amused by the story because this might be manufactured, right? This could be like not part of, uh, you know, Egan cannon in, in the outside world. And so she was really taken by how, maybe how ludicrous this story was. So she might've actually felt that. Um, but if that's the case, it does add an element of like, like how can Milchik have so much confidence

[00:28:59] to chastise her? Yeah. Um, because, because he, we know later that he knows that she's, you know, um, the Audi. Right. I mean, so that's, so it's not like he knows all the time. Right. So, so that scene upon second watch was like the most vexing for me, because I don't know. I don't know if like to Anthony's point that it's just like, she's keeping up the ruse. And so it is a manipulative thing.

[00:29:27] It sort of keeps, uh, yeah. But it, but it also undercuts whatever lesson is trying to be taught. Right. It, it, it, bringing into question the lesson at all. Yeah. And it makes me think maybe the end goal is to have her ridicule the story and give them all a bonding moment. And I think that maybe, I mean, if you read it this way, you could read it this way. She's been studying her any, right? We know. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:18] To, you know, sort of edge in on him. Lay the groundwork because he pokes his head in the tent later and says carrot. Right. You know, as a. Right. So I honestly, there's like, if this was all strategic, this is like levels within levels of strategy here. And I don't really know what to do with it. And, and she becomes one of the most major villains. Right. But I mean, to, to, to do, to go to that level. Yeah. You know?

[00:30:47] And so, because that, because I think an early read on, on this, well, so this is how complicated this all is. Right. Because in the tent, he, she tells him, I don't, I didn't like who I was as a nowty. I was ashamed. Now that could all again be part of this manipulation to, but, but at this point, I'm

[00:31:11] the only reason why anyone would think that she's lying is because Bert had, had poked at it. But if I recall correctly, he, yeah. Cause he, cause he poked at it there during the whole thing. So it could be like, that's why, you know, she's like, all right, I may have just gotten outed by Bert, but I'll, I'll just, I'll become sympathetic by saying I didn't like who my outty was. I was ashamed who they were. So that's why I didn't tell you the whole story.

[00:31:38] Um, and the other reading could, could be what some of the earlier readings of, uh, her were, which as she was watching the footage was, does she want to be the any, you know, is, is, is, is it, is there a part of her that doesn't want to be the, this Egan, uh, sort of this Pope puppet or, or, or whatever, however you want to put it. And, and there's a part of her that sort of is vacationing in there.

[00:32:05] Could it be a little bit of both perhaps like, Hey, let's keep them on track. But also, you know, I'm going to get a little something out of this too. Cause I don't, she doesn't strike me as super warm and getting a lot of, uh, love out there. Well, there is that moment right after they have sex where she says, I didn't like who I, what did she say? I didn't like who I was up there or something like that. And Irv is needling at that point.

[00:32:34] And so she's answering a little bit truthfully, right? To Mark, to further pull him on side and to, you know, to, to diminish Irv's impact. But a good lie is close to the truth. And if she, if she says, I don't, I didn't, I was ashamed of who I was out there. Yeah. Or it's could be like, like you were saying, Steve, like she likes helly. Are better than she likes herself.

[00:33:05] Like just like Gwen likes Dylan any better than Audi. Yeah. Maybe that's, maybe that's it. Like she's attracted more, not just to Mark S she's attracted to herself. Who's in love with Mark S. And so maybe she's, she's tried to lean into that persona because she just thinks that that's a better person than the person she's become. Well, the, like the original.

[00:33:29] So this is where like, cause it's, what's kind of fascinating is we haven't seen Helly R at all this season. Right. I mean, except for this brief moment at the end of this episode, which is kind of, which is kind of exciting because. Good point. So we've been kind of taking. What we've been, we've been trying to establish what, where we are with these characters, but we've really been getting, you know, we've been getting the wrong one. Right.

[00:33:53] I mean so it's so we've been actually doing, we started rewatching the first season, like in kind of in parallel, just trying to pick up whatever, trying to see what, you know, any other connections. You know, and, and how Audi, Helena is very clear that she does not see her any as a person. Yeah. At least, at least early on. And, and, but any, Helly is like, I'll kill the Audi.

[00:34:20] You know, there's, I mean, there is no question about it. Right. So it's a, it's an interesting dynamic. And then I don't like, it's hard to know where these, where these characters stand, because when we see the Helena Cobell interaction, she's very cold, very, you know, by the book and everything is very, you know, Egan centric.

[00:34:49] It's very cure focused, but so it's hard to, it's hard to imagine on some level that that same person is inside there, you know, on vacation from her normal self and like kind of living vicariously, especially knowing that everybody knows. Right. Like, I mean, you know, Milchak knows. And so it feels like there's a mission involved, but you'll wonder if she's serving two missions. One is keep Mark on cold Harbor.

[00:35:15] And also, you know, in the meantime, I can also maybe experience love. I don't know. So it's, it's, it's, it's hard to know. It's very hard to know how, and I have a feeling we'll find out just how, how cold this person may actually be. Which is crazy, crazy that that's what we're talking about. And, you know, reintegration was the number one thing we were all hoping to, to, to learn about. Because we didn't pick up from the table at the end of three. Yeah.

[00:35:45] I, I gotta, I want to bring in a couple of pieces of feedback, uh, on the discord, Nick Ben 914, looking at Kier as a cult leader, I could totally see this as his ego writing fables of himself for his future followers as a way to teach moral lessons. The innies would not have had any type of sexual maturity to figure it out as fast as Helena got there.

[00:36:10] Dieter or deter, as in discouraging someone from doing something by installing doubt or fear of the consequences. So is, is, you know, episode four. Yeah. Different path. But, uh, appendix four certainly has this latent sexuality to it. Right. Like you were saying with the, the, the, the church, you know, the outing, right. The youth group outings.

[00:36:40] Right. Are we two, I mean, so that's the thing about these lore, right. Are we to, um, take this as, I mean, obviously it's hard to know what's real, but are we to take this idea that he truly did have a twin and he killed him? And, uh, he, um, introduced this concept of woe as a detachment feeling. So Bim on the discord says, has that same comment. I can't decide whether or not I think Dieter was real.

[00:37:10] Was he real and Kier killed him for masturbating? Or was Dieter a version of himself that died before taming the tempers? If the former, there are Cain and Abel connotations, especially with Seth. If the latter, it definitely seems like some parallel to the severance procedure and having two selves with maybe the goal of the outing dying so that any can live to serve Kier as an obedient slave. Hmm. Well, yeah.

[00:37:38] So now we've got twins we've got, and they bring attention to the fact that they have their twins or they're kind of guiding them along the way. Right. I mean, that's. Creepy AF. Right. So they have these and they, and they aren't identical from what we can tell. So it kind of throws off the, the pure cloning concept, right?

[00:37:59] Because as we get closer to the, the, the, there's a me, one of them, uh, the Dylan, uh, it's not quite Dylan from what you can see. I also found it fascinating that, uh, Helly's twin, uh, neck is neck. Yeah. So, so is that it's a, it feels like a callback to the, uh, to the hanging attempt, um, which also then makes you wonder, like, cause I feel like, well, if I'm reading them as clones, does that mean that that maybe she was successful?

[00:38:29] And killing herself. And that's one of those versions. Um, it's, uh, it's crazy how creepy that, that part of it is. And it probably will be like the least talked about. Yeah. A number of people, Marine D and some, some other folks on the discord were also, um, caught that crook next sequence. There were a couple of scenes. The very first time we see her, her neck is to the side when she's standing in the waterfall at the beginning, her, uh,

[00:38:59] her head is a little bit straighter, but then at the end, uh, that final shot of them up there, her neck is definitely bent over like the elevator seat. It is a little crooked. I think the first time, but yeah, it's dramatic. Not as much. It is crooked. Yeah. So I took these as, um, you know, there was reference to animatonic. Mm. Mm. Um, instead of the wax figures of the perpetuity wing. Yes.

[00:39:28] In other Lumen locations, there's animatronic versions of these. Oh yeah. So. Some have brooms and plates. Yes. Yeah. So I, that's how I took that. I thought, okay, they're, they've created animatronic versions of these people. It's hard to know because you only see them from the distance. Right. Right. It's like, um, doing those rides at like universal studios or, uh, you know, where you see like

[00:39:56] there's a skeleton or a ghost behind you and you look and they're not there and it's some sort of optical illusion trick. That's, that's kind of way I read it. Yeah. Or when you're haunted by an actual ghost. Yeah. You know. Joe H said that somebody noted in another discord that the IMDB credits have marked double, uh, on the cliff there being played by Adam Jepsen, which happens to also be the guy who played

[00:40:23] the figure that was standing in the background of episode one in the hallway when Mark got to this. Yes. That's interesting. So, yeah, no, I guess, I mean, the other way to look at this is that doppelgangers are are a big part of this show. And it could just be, this is one more way to bring in that thematic element in the same way that, you know, Cobel has the beta fish in her apartment. Mm hmm.

[00:40:53] Um, no, Mark had it. Mark had those. Oh, Mark or Mark does. Yeah. Yeah. So the other thing is I just don't know what to do with. And for me, this is the biggest question coming out of this episode. Is this post integration? Yes. That's my understanding, right? Okay.

[00:41:16] So because 99.9% of this presents this as any Mark, there's that one moment when he's making love where he sees miss Casey or he sees Gemma or whatever. And that, that is a call back to PD's experience of, you know, parallel lives. Right. Otherwise, what am I to do with the fact that he was reintegrated at the end of last episode,

[00:41:45] but this entire episode treats him as if he's not with the exception of that one moment? Well, I, so my understanding is, and this is something Heather had pointed out from previous, I think also from, um, some of the previously on and in some of the things we watched is that integration is kind of a slow process. I believe. Uh, I don't think it just happens.

[00:42:10] And, and I don't know where she got this, but she was, she was saying that it has more impact on your Audi more so than your any. Hmm. Hmm. So, because when PD was reintegrated, um, he, cause he had been at work and then he wasn't right.

[00:42:35] Our understanding, if I recall is that he had reintegrated and was still going to work. Okay. And he never like he had, so he was able to, I think, create the maps. Um, but I don't think he ever communicated from any to any. He only communicated from Audi to Audi. And so I, I think that there's more, but this is where I, you know, I think there's more

[00:43:00] to this to be explained because that to me was a moment that would, that indicated the reintegration is still taking, or at least it's, it's, it's taking to the any at this level. Um, but it's hard to know. I think it's hard to know exactly. I don't think, I think he's very much an any in this episode. Okay. So let's say I'm just going to throw a metaphor out there.

[00:43:22] So let's say his brain is two halves of a canvas and one half of the canvas is yellow and the other half of the canvas is blue, right? It could be the integration basically turns the yellow side to green by painting blue on top of the yellow. Right. But it doesn't necessarily affect the other side. Oh, gotcha.

[00:43:48] So in other words, he's, it's his Audi that's reintegrated, but the any is not yet reintegrated yet. Okay. Yeah. That, that could make sense. That could make sense for what I, what I watched on this, but it was frustrating, man. Like I was really waiting. I really wanted to see what integration was like for Mark, you know, I want to shout out really quick to the bonus episode that Nicole and I recorded where we

[00:44:16] talked about the nature of our Gavi's questions that you posed, uh, Anthony. And, uh, then, uh, Nicole wrote up a little blog post and posted it to our website, which anybody can see. But it talks about what those questions are doing and, and how that might be, um, how she's trying to sort of map out Mark's innie and outie, uh, by these, uh, these very specific style questions.

[00:44:43] So definitely go check out the blog post and, um, uh, subscribers can listen to the more fuller conversation on the podcast. I just, I just got a text from a buddy of mine who said that that episode, like literally just right now said that's up there with, uh, all time best episodes of any show on TV. Storytelling, incredible acting, stunningly beautiful. Referring to three or four. Uh, four. Okay. Wow.

[00:45:10] Uh, we've already sort of bridged into the camping topic at woes hollow. Mr. Milchick brings the innies to a campsite providing copious amount, copious amounts of luxury meats and marshmallows. Irving prods. Helly about her Audi before Milchick gives a dramatic reading of Keir's orth appendix. Helly mocks the story about masturbating death, ignoring introduction of woe. Milchick gets angry and sends them to bed without marshmallows.

[00:45:37] Irv pushes Helly again and she lashes out him. Mark and Helly get it on with Mark reassuring and insecure Helly. Mark and Helly. So, who was it on the discord that mentioned the Cain and Able story? Uh, I have that right here. That is Bim. All right. So, I agree with Bim. There's certainly some kind of, it's almost like a biblical, um, mythology that's happening

[00:46:07] here, right? You've got the Cain and Able thing. I do think that they've kind of merged that with the story of Onan, who masturbates and gets punished for it. Um, and, but I would also know. And also the old wives tale that if you masturbate, you'll go blind. That's right. Ah, yes. That's right. And then I will also note at this point that the little creature, the half, the half, half

[00:46:36] a size of human creature that they meet, they call them a bride, right? Yeah. So, she represents Woe. Woe's gaunt bride. Yeah. So, she represents Woe in some way and she's a bride and I will, it made me recall that during the waffle party, one of the masks that the dancers are wearing is that of a bride. That's right. Mm-hmm. So, I'm wondering. Oh, yeah. You see that. Yeah, yeah.

[00:47:05] You see that in the, and they show that, um, in the, uh, the, one of the pictures, one of the paintings that they, that they love, uh, that Bert and, um, Irving love. And it's, it's where Hick here is like admonishing the four, right? Like he's got the whip and there's the, there's the goat, there's the old, uh, there's a bride, there's the old, uh, woman. And, uh, the, the, what the jester, I guess.

[00:47:31] So, it makes me wonder, like, are each of those four dancers representative of, you know, woe, frolic, dread and malice or something like that. Yeah, I would think so. I would think that that would track that you probably have the jester as malice. I would assume, uh, maybe the, the goat is, is frolic. Yeah, maybe so. And I remember that the mask of that bride, um, you know, she, she has this odd look on her face.

[00:47:59] Like she's either, I always read it as sort of surprised, uh, but you could look, it does, that mask could look like she's crying. So you've got that there and it's, it just suggests to me that this mythology is carefully put together.

[00:48:23] Um, and then you've got this weird bit about, this is the tallest waterfall in the world. Yeah. What was that? This is the tallest waterfall on the planet, which makes it. In their world. Sure. Which is just an unforced error. It's just like, you're going to lie about something like this. Yes. So do you, I mean, so there's clearly an element of this that they, that the, that the

[00:48:51] queer adherents believe this cult mythology and yet clearly there are lies baked in this for no reason whatsoever. So it, it makes me wonder like, okay, does Milchik think this is all fairy tales or does Milchik really believe it? I don't know. Does Helena believe it? For them though. I think it's stories for the severed. Yeah. Yeah. I would. Okay. Yeah.

[00:49:21] So this is a mythology for it's, and I think this goes back to kind of the Scientology tiers we talked about, like what levels you get to be at to, and not just Scientology, but other, uh, religions and cults as well, which is you, you earn your way to different truths. Um, and, and this, this sort of keeps them, uh, it, it, it impresses them. And like, cause it even when Irving asks about the stories, like, is this true?

[00:49:47] And then, you know, Milchik sort of rambles his way around to like, you know, that these stories, these tales, uh, you know, uh, essentially are true is what he's saying. Like it's all truth. And, but the way he says that in such a way is almost as if to say, and then I can tell you what truth means later, but yeah, right. That's right. He says something like, uh, to enhance our work, uh, we are given these tales of, of cures childhood. Right.

[00:50:14] And then he said, it's, it's all truth, which really does smack of a sort of religious indoctrination. Right. But that is the moment that Helena just burst into laughter. And then I, then I go to those layers. It's like, okay, is this all choreographed? Uh, this is, this is a big, this is a big play. This is a big kind of production just to get to this moment of Heli and Mark bonding over

[00:50:44] this. And to what end, right? Like to get Mark to finish cold Harbor, like you're, nobody's working on the data files right now. They're all on these weird, you know, did either of you think at any point in this episode, did you think like, this is like a dreamscape? Like they've got access to the, their minds or consciousness or like on some kind of video game side quest. Very early on.

[00:51:11] And then I would, then I, I switched over to know this is actual feel physical, real world. Right. It does. The fact that Heli almost gets drowned. Uh, right. Yeah. That's kind of the reveal for me, but I bet halfway through Irv's dream, I was thinking, Oh, this is totally, this is, this is all in someone's mind. We're watching. Well, the first question I had was who's dressing them.

[00:51:37] Did they, you know, like, because did, or did they tell their outies, your guys are going to go on a retreat for two days, your work outies or your work in, these are going to go on a retreat. So dress this way, you know, like, I guess it's possible. Right. I mean, if, if the, if they said, Hey, we're doing a team building exercise, because I'm like, they're going to be gone for two days. Um, they all are dressed like this. Um, how did they get like, you know, did they get shut off? Redressed?

[00:52:02] I mean, so those are some questions, but I've, uh, you know, I kind of landed on this was, you know, made aware that they would be going on some sort of a, uh, a work. Richard. So they go into the elevator, they get shut off. They are taken out and dressed. And then, uh, while they're still in some sort of off state.

[00:52:29] So there is a really good Yoshi bop on the discord posted this. Uh, I believe it was from, they said it was from season one, episode eight. Who's, uh, who's for dinner. I think it was. Yeah. What's for dinner. And it is a screenshot of the code administrator listing out the system functions, which are

[00:52:52] beehive branch transfer, clean slate, elephant freeze frame and Glasgow. Mm-hmm. And I remember when Steve and I were going through this, Glasgow was always the one that was like, what could that possibly mean? You know, we, we had like theories for all of these other modes. And so for Elisa, uh, chimed in on the discord as well.

[00:53:21] And she found this on the Reddit that the Glasgow coma scale, the GCS is a neurological assessment tool used to evaluate the level of consciousness in patients with brain injury. It assigned points to three categories of responses, eye openings, verbal response, and motor responses. And that like first responders and EMTs will, when they're reporting in on the status of a patient, they'll, they'll say, uh, alert and oriented times three or, you know, whatever. So this is this.

[00:53:49] And then this goes into the conversation that I had with Nicole on these alerts and oriented questions. Do you know who you are? Do you know where you are? Do you know when it is? That kind of stuff. So the Glasgow thing, that's really interesting. Like, does that directly relate to, you know, the, well, I guess it. It relates in the sense that hell ER was basically just put under for a, uh, uh, you know, a long period of time. Yeah.

[00:54:18] And could they freeze frame them so that they could then move them, dress them and actually take them out into Dieter national forest? Unknown. I don't know, man. I don't know if this is the kind of question that they want to answer. Mm hmm. I mean, they clearly they have a lot of access to their brains. A lot more than we're being led to believe. Right. Right.

[00:54:46] So there's, I think there's a couple of things here at play, right? Like, and that's, this is where the world that they've built is so elaborate that we want to know every little aspect of it. Right. Right. And there's only probably so much that, um, is, is knowable for a showrunner to, to put together. Right. Um, but I think it wouldn't be a terrible leap to go, well, I guess if you can shut someone's brain off or at least a chunk of their brain for a period of time that they have no recollection

[00:55:15] of it, that you could do it to both sides and put them in an outfit and throw them in the ice. So, you know, it's like, so it's like that to me is like, I didn't, I didn't, I had the question, I have the questions as to, I wonder how, but to me that doesn't necessarily, that's probably not solving anything else. Right. Because it's like to find out that they have more access than we realize wouldn't shock me. And that they, we have all of these, I mean, the fact that they even revealed what the

[00:55:40] Glasgow one was, at least to the degree that basically the Glasgow says, oh yeah, you can be, you can hit the severance floor, um, as an outing. Right. Which somehow bypasses the elevator, which we got another, uh, email about. I want to play a voicemail that Karen sent in that I think it gets into some of these issues as well. Hi, this is Karen ZeroDucks. I wanted to make a comment about the whole idea of reintegration and specifically Kobelvig

[00:56:09] and her situation. Um, one of the things that I've seen on Reddit, and I think that it's a pretty good theory is the idea of permanent innies. So this theory that maybe, um, people like Milchik and Kobel are chipped, but some reward at some point for their severed existence was being able to leave as the innie and then resume a complete life as an innie.

[00:56:37] Um, so basically the Audi is the one that dies. And I think that there's some reasons to believe that that could be the case, particularly with the reset comment, uh, towards Kobelvig in episode three and her immediate fear. That indicates to me that she does have a chip in her head. Um, and then also if you think about the logic of that, it would ultimately give Lumen the capability

[00:57:06] of controlling the brains of all of these people. So if they can convince people to get chipped one way or another, and then they let them continue as a chipped person, they don't need to reintegrate. They can just think that they're living freely, but the whole time Lumen has the ability to do whatever it wants with their brains. So I would argue that Kobel is probably in possession of a chip in her brain. I'm on the fence about Milchik.

[00:57:35] I don't really know what his deal is yet. I think that maybe he's just a true believer and he's starting to come around to the fact that he's never going to have the life that he wants. Um, and that maybe reintegration is possible, but the reason why it didn't work for PD is that PD immediately got fired. So he was not able to continue having time on the severed floor, which maybe is an important part of that reintegration.

[00:58:03] And you can't just flip the switch in your brain and then be outside all the time. And maybe that's why he died. So anyway, those are a bunch of thoughts. We'll see what happens in episode four. I kind of like that. I kind of like the, especially that the part with the, um, he, he needs to be in any longer, but because I think there is a, there is an element. I think I also still think that it has something to do with maybe the, the, uh, the rudimentary approach to reintegration and that if, if reintegration is done, it can be done well.

[00:58:31] It, it, it's through a Lumen process that they just basically keep hush hush. Yeah. I do find, I do find at least that part. It's, it's gotten me good. And I think it's because we don't really know. We thought we were going to learn more about reintegration. Right. I think it's interesting going back to these system functions, branch transfer. We've seen a little bit of that clean slate. That could be what, um, uh, co co Belvig was worried about the reset. Yeah.

[00:59:01] And then freeze frame, you know, maybe that's how they move them around in Glasgow. You know, I'm just really spinning some things. Or maybe it's just what you do when you put someone on a frozen Lake. Do we? Yeah. Do I remember correctly that Irv was in the Navy or was it his father in the Navy? I was never clear about that. I think it's because it's an older picture, right? That he looks at. Yeah. And it looks like all of the artifacts are with that picture as if to suggest that that was a relative.

[00:59:31] Okay. So yeah, maybe his father was in the Navy or something like that. That's kind of what I was going with. Yeah. So I was trying to figure out like you put them like it's, it's pretty bold move to put it. So knock someone out and put them in the middle of a frozen Lake. Yeah. And then leave them to wander around in the forest at night on their own. Right. And I mean, you don't know, they might eat a carcass of a seal.

[01:00:00] I mean, that's a legitimate possibility that you take your employee out into the wilderness. They're going to eat it, run, seal. A fascinating part of our rewatch. And I think it was maybe episode one, season one. Could have been two where Milchick specifically says there's no death in that you'll never have to experience death. Like you'll never witness it. Oh, that's right. So to see this carcass. Oh, yeah.

[01:00:30] It's a departure from that. What dead things look like. Yeah. But it's a departure for what they said, basically saying that they're in a way that they're protected. And kind of brings me back to this sort of like these tears of truth or you earn your way to different levels of knowledge. Like even this appendix four, it's not allowed on the severance floor. But they're going to get access to it.

[01:00:57] So they get special access that other severed people do not. And so here they are in this world where it's like it is like post post Eden existence to a degree. Right. It's like, all right, well, now you're going to now you see death. Now you're hearing these tales that are, you know, like, hey, you're reached a certain age where you may be tempted to masturbate. Do not. Don't do that. We're going to tell you this this lesson here.

[01:01:26] And so this lesson, I mean, this whole episode is so, so rife with sexuality and like the Google eyes and the. They're like the mission is interrupted or whatever their lives are being interrupted. Their their relationships are somehow at odds because there's romantic notions in there. And then the entire lesson that's being taught is, you know, don't defile your body.

[01:01:55] You know, otherwise nature or. Tame your humor. In other case. Sort of like. Maybe Carol drown you. A nature. So, you know, let's let's impose our mythology onto nature cycles. You know, we're going to talk about how babies are made. We're also going to talk about the end of life stuff of death, which is all kind of a sort of encapsulated in the metaphor of Dieter, you know, decomposing into something.

[01:02:23] Some kind of woodland decay creature. Yeah. As if the seal was was a remnant of Dieter's. Right. And I try and I tried to. I think that that helps me. I think I'm I was trying to figure out like. Why? I think it was I thought it was a sea lion. Not that they would know the difference, but could have easily been a bear. All right. Is it? Because I I thought there's no way. Well, they're not they're not near an ocean. Right.

[01:02:53] So there's no reason why a seal carcass would be right there. But if you're right, Steve, this is all kind of a planned excursion where they encounter death for the first time. You know, that clearly it was a plant. And it gives them consequence in a different way. Right. Also, does this hell? Does hell?

[01:03:20] He give her give up her what she is because she made him a seal. And and maybe he was like, we don't know what seals look like. Yeah. And I would say that that it would be unusual for Lumen to not have walked that route and checked and seen that carcass there. So to leave that carcass there. That is not a natural occurrence. A seal in the middle of a forest is not a natural occurrence. A seal on a beach.

[01:03:49] I've encountered lots of rotten seals on beaches. That's natural. A deer or a moose in the wilderness. That would be natural. The fact that it was a seal. Makes me think of someone planted this here just just for a particular purpose. Again, I don't know what the purpose is. I don't know what is what is what is Cold Harbor? I think we need to know what Cold Harbor is because it that.

[01:04:20] And what does this have to what does any of this occurrence? What is it? What are they called? The the the Ortbo or something? Ortbo. The Ortbo. What does the Ortbo have to do with Cold Harbor? I don't know. Right. And what is it? Because, I mean, it's not like it was planned that it would end the way that it ended. Right.

[01:04:41] So we don't really know what the ultimate end goal was unless this was all orchestrated to get Hellie and Mark into a situation where where they could have this sexual encounter that might bond him to her in a way that she can manipulate him further. In Dune, we talk about sexual imprinting. The Bene Gesserit can imprint people.

[01:05:11] By by by these methods. So if you want to keep somebody from trying to think of their potential outies wife, you become their first sexual experience and you probably occupy a lot of their space. Right. Yeah. It's a it's a pretty clever way to to get this guy to to be pretty loyal and to kind of I mean, I think that's what we're seeing. Right.

[01:05:36] Like, I mean, that's what what Irving is calling out, which is constantly like, well, you know, you're making these googly eyes. You're doing all these things. And it's what's the line. What's the iris line? I can't remember now. Making love to him with your pupils. Yes. Yeah. So, I mean, I and again, like I think eyes are so what I mean, this episode is all eyes. Right. I mean, Dieter's eye essentially pops out. It comes pussy. Right. Right.

[01:06:05] The reflections in their eyes and so many shots, the fire being reflected in Dylan's eyes during the campfire scene is so stark. And then the red heater, it's what I assume is the heater light from the tent in Mark's eyes every time it would cut back from him. And Helly was just I couldn't take, well, for lack of a better term, my eyes. And I would it was like I was just so drawn to it.

[01:06:32] And then then you have Irving's dream where all of the letters form this eye and I kind of comes up multiple times in that in that image. And it almost looks like it was starting to form Helly's face initially. I kept on going back to it, trying to figure out what the formation is. And it kind of looked like it was going there. And then it just becomes this eye. And so I think that there's a lot, obviously, intentional with that.

[01:07:00] And it's it's it's an interesting way to frame this. And let me read quickly that they're being watched. Right. Irving's woe, this section, Irving goes into the forest to find Mr. Milchick, but collapses on a rock and falls asleep. In his hypothermic slumber, Irv dreams of MDR in a creepy forest. He works on the Montauk file before Bert lowers the divider between them.

[01:07:26] When Bert disappears, woe is sitting diagonally from Irving, also working on the Montauk file. Working on the computer anyway. And then Irv awakens in the forest alone. And yeah, we get that screen that it's very clearly an eye that's being formed by the letters.

[01:07:48] So Sarah noticed that on the screen, at least initially, all the numbers were one, five and seven. Yeah. One, five and seven. So what do we make of this? They're all odd numbers. Those are the scariest numbers. Are they all prime? I'm not sure what to do with this.

[01:08:17] He does get to see Bert again. And Christopher Walken, the look that he throws there, the looks between the two of them, amazing. And there's a lot of conversation around Totoro. And he was the one who picked Christopher Walken because they're buddies. Yeah. And they have this real high degree of trust.

[01:08:38] And I heard an interesting interview with Stiller talking about how Totoro sort of has this high barrier. But then once you're over that barrier and the trust, he's all in and he just gives everything that he has to his performances and to the people he's working with. So I'm loving the fact that he picked Walken to partner with for this role.

[01:09:06] One of the things that my daughter mentioned was that, is it possible that we're just calling her Woe, I guess, huh? Yeah. Yeah. The Gaunt Bride. And it was here that I first encountered the Temporal Woe. A Gaunt Bride, half the height of a natural woman.

[01:09:35] She spoke to me directly from her eyes and said, this is your doing. You suffered his wantonness. Now he's no one's brother. Only Chaos' whore. The Gaunt Bride of Woe. That this is maybe some clue to understanding Miss Wong?

[01:10:04] Hmm. Because Woe. Well, because Woe is, you know, at first glance, you might confuse Miss Woe with a young girl. Mm-hmm. Of a half size or whatever. Right. You know. And then, but of course, you take a little closer look and you realize, no, it's actually an elderly small person. And maybe that's what's happening with Miss Wong somehow? Hmm. Not sure.

[01:10:35] I loved how she was playing the music, like the soundtrack for the story. And like, as it got more serious, she would like that the music would switch up. So that's a product that you can buy online. It's about 400 bucks. And I think I found it on the Sweetwater website, which is like a musician's thing. But it's a theremin, basically. Yeah, it's a theremin.

[01:11:00] And I was listening to an interview with the creator of the music and Shapiro. And he was saying that he owns one of these things. Oh, wow. And he was sort of messing with it as he came up with the theme of the show. Nice. And the actor who plays Miss Wong actually learned how to play this instrument. Oh, that's great. She really does seem like she's doing it in the show. Yeah. Yeah. Really amazing.

[01:11:29] Again, all production designed, very carefully thought of. I'm curious about, okay, we've got this insight into Woe now, one of the four tempers, right? That's kind of what this episode was supposed to do. This episode was called Woe's Hollow. Yep.

[01:11:55] We met kind of an otherworldly person, creature in Irv's dreams. Do we? All right. So then we've also met goats connected to, I don't know, Frolic, I suppose. Mm-hmm. Do we have any other? Right. Mm-hmm.

[01:12:16] Do we have any other characters that we've met in this show, maybe non-human characters that represent these other tempers yet? I can't think of it. So maybe we keep a lookout for a non-human mascot or something for dread and malice, because we've got the first two, right?

[01:12:46] Yeah, that could be something they're doing in this episode then. And we had in season one, as we already talked about, the four dancers, right? Right. So maybe we're seeing... Okay. All right. Keep a lookout for other mascots for these other two tempers. Let's talk a little bit more about Irv.

[01:13:11] Joe H on the Discord mentioned that in previous episodes, it seemed like Irving was trying to get info to his innie by constantly painting the same thing. He also tried to keep himself awake with coffee as if trying to make his innie sleep. This did result in Irv nodding off at his desk and having visions of the black goo. In the woods, he fell fully asleep and had a weird dream. When he woke, he was convinced that Hellie was her outie and that he called her an egan. He figured out that she was an egan.

[01:13:40] I think the knowledge of Helena being an egan came from his outie memories, which he accessed while he was asleep. And then Joe also follows up with a little comment. That was presumably the first time that the innies slept, other than Irv nodding off at his desk. Oh, I hadn't thought about that. That's crazy. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. And there would be no need to. That's fantastic. All right.

[01:14:09] I like that a lot. So I wonder, and it's also a challenging thing because the way that dreams can take on parts of the brain that maybe aren't readily accessible. So it's like, it's kind of a risky thing, isn't it? And as an artist, you know, there's a theory I'm kind of working is Irv somehow there to be an MDR.

[01:14:34] You have to be somehow empathetic or have some emotional intelligence to be able to find the scary numbers. But then somehow Irv's artistic talents, I don't wonder, have some way to bridge the sort of right, left, half of his brains kind of thing.

[01:14:55] If there's some way that he's able to connect it with himself that others haven't through because they're not, they don't have the same artistic training or artistic mindset. Hmm. Well, and I mean, all we know for sure about Irving's Audi, besides being an artist, is he has names of employees.

[01:15:21] He knows how to get a message to his innie or that's been a part of something he's been working on. So Irving is a much more interesting, like kind of a foible to this whole thing. Yeah. Because I don't know. I don't know. Like he's so straight laced and follows all the rules. Mm-hmm. When he was first introduced to him. And then as soon as the Burt situation happens, he does a switch. Then he does a switch.

[01:15:50] And he's like, let's burn this place to the ground. And what I, you know, so you start to wonder was, okay, so was he always playing it safe? But like he still was working? Was he doing deep cover, sort of building up his reputation as being a rules follower to really hide some of his motivations? So they're like, oh, that's just. And then something just flipped? Or is this, or is it really just, he's separate, but there's enough way.

[01:16:19] Like, is he getting to himself in his dreams? Mm-hmm. Does he know, like, does Audi Burt know how to communicate to any Burt through dreams? You know, and maybe that's why he was so tired all the time is because he would keep him awake as an Audi so that his innie would fall asleep. And he knew he could somehow access. Having those weird dreams. Yeah. That's how you can get your messages to your innie. It's like, you can't burn it into your retinas.

[01:16:48] You can't bring a note. But maybe you can get to your dream through another, like some sort of consciousness, right? And maybe the painting isn't obsessive compulsive. Maybe it's part of the communication. Jesse on the Discord was saying, thinking again about Irv's Audi saying into the phone, that his innie got the message. The message must be the testing or export, testing floor, export hall, exports hall.

[01:17:17] When he woke up from overtime and was standing on Burt's porch, their Audis must have spoken. I'm agnostic, but wondering what others think about the role of Burt's Audi. Whose side is he on? Or is he on no one's side? This is the section of the mystery I'm most curious about right now. And I think we saw him pull up to the phone booth. And, you know, a lot of us could easily go, well, I mean, a guy shows up at your door pounding on it. You might be curious to find out who that was.

[01:17:48] Or there's more to it than that. And was it Felicia says they used to go to exports, but now they don't let them go down there? So was there some... The guy who does that. Yeah. Was there something... Was there some... Is Burt part of the Resistance? Is Irv part of the Resistance? Have either of them had any reintegration work done? What's the Resistance called in this world? I forget. The League of something or another? Oh, yeah. I just saw this episode, too. I forget what it was. So, yeah, more questions there.

[01:18:18] And it really does make me think about Irv's position relative to being severed. There's a... Because we've been doing, like I said, this rewatch. There's this great moment. And I'm sure it's been talked about. But, like, I think it's even more interesting now that we know that Mark has done reintegration where Selvig is in his house. And he's got the three light bulb light fixture. Yeah, right. And two are on and one is off.

[01:18:46] And he's like, we're still waiting for that third bulb to... Are you waiting for that third bulb to revive itself? And it's such a fascinating thing now to think about. Like, there's two versions of him that are on, but one that's off. And then, like, now maybe that was the reintegration Easter egg. Hmm. Let's talk about the next section, the fucking mole. Mark and Dylan wake up and inform Mr. Milchick that Heli and Irv are missing.

[01:19:11] At the waterfall, Irving confronts Helena, telling her that Heli was never cruel. He deduces that she's an outie and that she must be an egan. He takes her captive and calls Mr. Milchick. When everyone is there, Irving demands Milchick restore Heli's innie while threatening to drown Helena, which Helena says, God damn it, Seth, do it. He removes the Glasgow block and Heli returns to consciousness.

[01:19:38] Irving is fired and smiles with his last moment. And we've got a little voicemail from John who had a quick comment about this. I was right. I was right. Everything I say is right. You'd be better off if you did what I said. All right, enough of that gloating by John. Okay.

[01:20:02] So I was, I think like a lot of people not prepared for the fact that they were going to knock this one down. Right. They set up this misser. They were sort of teasing us and, you know, we were all timing on this. Perfect timing on this. I think so. Because it was one of these things where the fans were starting to like form into factions. Oh, you're right. Yeah. Divide and conquer, right? I mean, this is what you don't want. You don't want, we're not supposed to be fighting each other.

[01:20:32] Everybody's supposed to be fighting the ruling class. So, so it was just, you know, you didn't want to like draw this out for the whole season. Like, you know, I don't want to crap on rings of power, but it's like, come on, man. How are you, how long are you going to keep the mystery box closed?

[01:20:51] I do think that episode four was the right time to reveal that this was not hell ER because there are bigger and more important mysteries at work. And so now we're off to the races with these other, these other things, you know, it's, it's, it looks like all of Lumen's plans to continue to enslave. These people have come to nothing.

[01:21:21] And it seems like because of IRF, they've got the upper hand now and Marcus was just reintegrated. And we finally have hell ER back, Dylan. I'm not sure what to do with Dylan, but it doesn't look like any of these efforts to continue to pull the wool over these people's eyes have worked at all. Well, well, what?

[01:21:50] I mean, what is when Milchak says it's as if you will never, you never existed. Are there, are these severed folks going to come into a world where they have no recollection of Irving? Oh, interesting. I hadn't even thought about that. So they could retroactively remove, cause he Milchak does say that you're going to be erased. And it's as if he's all of your personal belongings will be gone. It's as if you never existed.

[01:22:20] But he also said that that was the tallest waterfall on the planet. So. Well, it's the, it's the tallest one on their planet. Okay. There will be no veneration catered. So if that is the case, it does bring up an interesting thing about like, well, then, uh, is that, is that part of the reset? And if so, is there a risk that you run, uh, with the cold Harbor project? Um, so I don't know.

[01:22:49] I mean, because that was such a dramatic way to say it, unless it was just for, uh, you know, again, that dramatic effect of him just doing this ultimate chastising. But what do you do? Because if they, everything, this is exactly kind of like what we were talking about with like after the overtime, uh, uh, contingency, right. Is, well, how do they go back to work? And does it work? If they've seen the outside, here we go again, right. Where it's like, how do you go back to, well, we know that you're really an Egan.

[01:23:20] Um, we know, you know, you're an Egan cause you just came back from that. And what that also means is that you're a little bargaining chip, you know, I mean, you're, even though you're an any, nothing bad can happen to you. Like, I mean, no harm can be, you're, you're going to be protected theoretically. So you're kind of a safety shield. So like that changes a lot of things. Right. And that's what I was like arguing before that why it couldn't have been hell ER.

[01:23:48] And there's because if she knew that, then she could use that to her advantage inside. So things are very complicated. Things are very complicated in terms of like, like it was already, and you add the fact that he is in the process of, of, of experience and reintegration. And we don't even know what that means. Um, so what you, what I wonder is if the reintegration happening when it did, what could be beneficial if they do try to wipe out the Irving memory?

[01:24:13] Because then maybe he'll have a memory of Irving, uh, inside that will be at odds with his new, uh, his new world. Davey Mack on the discord says, imagine what must be going through Helly's mind right now. One moment you're hijacking your Audi's big moment during the OTC and the next you're being held under freezing water. Next to the world's tallest water. No, that's something that I totally thought about too. What from Helly artist perspective?

[01:24:43] Uh, yeah, never do this again. Never ever do this again. Uh, also. Okay.

[01:24:52] So Steve, you were suggesting just now that maybe they clean slate Irv, but not just clean slate Irv target specific memories to delete from the rest of these, these all, they're all memories. Right. Right.

[01:25:17] Isn't that exactly the kind of thing that you would have to develop on MDR macro data refinement? You know, you, you, you have to target specific memories to loop up and delete in order to sort of create this, this hybrid personality or this, this severed persona.

[01:25:46] You have to keep certain memories intact and you have to delete certain memories. Like you, you know what a seal is, but maybe you've never seen the seal. Yeah. You know, a seal exists, but you don't, you probably couldn't draw one. Right. So I think that there's something to this because I feel like this is exactly what severance does. It loops up offending memories, memories that, that, that are going to stand in the way of, of Egan or something like that.

[01:26:16] And it partitions them off so that you can create this perfectly worker B persona. And, you know, maybe they repurpose or, you know, maybe, maybe he comes back and he's a different person in some other location. There is a branch transfer. Exactly. In the, in that control group. Exactly. You just delete the certain memories that, that don't fit.

[01:26:45] Otherwise you've got this perfect little worker B. You don't want to waste him. I mean, you're just going to relocate him to Brazil or whatever. Yeah. You don't want severed employees just wandering around out there. Unemployed. Yeah. With a chip in their head. That's true. Yeah. No, it's, yeah. I mean, so I love how as soon as one mystery gets answered, it creates a whole new set of mysteries, right? Like we're going back now. Was, was she really laughing at that story?

[01:27:15] Was this all part of the thing, you know, part of her plan? And, and is it to what end? And it's just like, it just keeps on snowballing into other layers. And, and it's, it's, again, it's just so, so bonkers. And we can talk about so much of this. I do want to just, just while, cause it came to mind, Britt Lauer's facial performance in this episode. It's her eyes. It's her eyes.

[01:27:45] When her face drops, when he, when he, when they're in the tent and Bert is, is pressing her and her face just changed. Her face almost just does the severance effect in a way. Like she does such a, like where all of a sudden, like at that moment, I'm like, that's, she's out. That's how it. Nancy M, our, our hand of the pod who coordinates all of our feedback actually put in the document here.

[01:28:11] There's a split second in, in the tent where that happens and you could see the, the guard going down. So yeah, I think you're totally right, Steve. Yeah. Her face is like, her eyes do gymnastics in the tent there. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, there's like five different emotions being communicated. Indeed. Felicia B wrote in an email about a question. If, if we've talked about this before, is some, anybody's asked this before.

[01:28:38] If Helena is really pretending to be how the are, how does she make it past the switch in the elevator? I'd say that she's entering from another one, but it's clearly the elevator that everyone else is using. Mark is waiting for her to the elevator. So I would just say that they have absolute control over that switch. They can. I think it's the, it's that, it's the Glasgow block. This does it. Yeah. And you, you press the Glasgow button and all. And you go through. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. I'll just say, I watched it.

[01:29:08] You watch it how many times? You've only watched it one time. I did it twice today. I think he said once. I think I would, that sequence at the end where we're with Bert and Hellie and he's pulling her to the, to the water, just as many chills. The second watch. It is so well done. It is so well crafted.

[01:29:30] It's so well shot. It is so just, it's acted in such a way that like nothing's too over the top. It just feels, it feels very authentic.

[01:29:56] And to tour, like, I can't say enough about like to tour in that scene is just spellbinding. It's yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's great TV. And it's like that, that it's for a show, for an episode that, that is so wrought with tension throughout. I mean, the tone is so different. There's funny things, but there's nothing funny really happening. Right.

[01:30:22] And it's, it's so disorienting that they are where they are and you don't know if it's a dream sequence. There's okay. Well, there's multiple versions of them. Are we just finding out that there's clones? Wait, that's not even the point of this episode.

[01:30:39] And, and to do all again, to do all of that in an episode that just kind of comes out of nowhere and yet still moves this story along and answers a major question, but then it creates some new ones. It's, it's remarkable. I mean, it's, it's an episode that as I'm watching it, I'm like, like I was thinking back to Anthony going like, oh, filler episode, as he was saying, like the last one, like he was concerned about that.

[01:31:06] Like this one had like almost all of the markings of the filler episode, right? They're on a retreat. And yeah, it's a bottle episode. It's like the most beautifully shot bottle episode ever. Right. Right. This is just going to show you just, it's almost just showing you what, what Lumen has at its disposal and creating more lore for, for cure. Just setting more backdrop. Like, nope, nope, nope. It's still moving the story along. Yeah. But it's here outside.

[01:31:34] They get to see the sky for the first time. They get to see, you know, running, everything is new and fresh and, and yet there's still more to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I did feel a little bit frustrated at the end of this, like, because, because I'll blame it on Steve and John because I was not, you know, I was sort of looking for the heli turn at any moment. Right.

[01:32:03] So for me, it wasn't shocking. It was kind of shocking the way they revealed it. But the frustrating part was to leave this episode and not really have any more answers about reintegration than when I came in. And I will say that tiny bit disappointed with that.

[01:32:27] Yeah, see, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking that maybe the reintegration happens at just the right time because if it happens after this, then maybe, maybe it disrupts the resistance. But like, sure. Maybe the fallout from the Irving might, might make it such that the reintegration happened at exactly the right time. So that, that might be how this whole thing gets woven together. Let's take another quick break.

[01:32:53] And then when we come back, we'll pick up with the needle drop and wrap up the, with the theory quarter, corner and some, a few pieces of loose feedback. Hey everyone, David here. And like a certain author once wrote, your so-called boss may own the clock that taunts you from the wall, but the hour is yours.

[01:33:23] And we're using our hours to bring you comprehensive coverage of Severance season two. Here's something really simple. We're doing a season pass for just five bucks. That's it. One payment, no subscription, no complexity. So what exactly is a season pass?

[01:33:42] It's a dedicated ad free feed that gives you permanent access to all of our weekly episodes for season two, our exclusive supply closet bonus series, and Steve and Anthony's complete season one rewatch. In our supply closet episode so far, we've had fascinating conversations with the team from Nevermind the Music. Mark broke down the four signature chords of the main musical theme and how they connect to the show's themes.

[01:34:09] While Nicole has explored the neuroscience behind different types of memory, where personality lives in the brain, as well as brainwave oscillations and reintegration. We've got more exciting conversations planned. We'll be announcing those soon. Look, we know everyone's dealing with subscription fatigue these days. That's why we made this super straightforward. Five bucks, one time, everything's included. Two clicks, and you're done.

[01:34:37] And while we can't promise you any goats, we can promise all of our episodes will leave you feeling just as refreshed as any wellness session. Head over to lorehoundsnetwork.supercast.com to get your season pass. You can also find the link in our show notes below. Need help? Visit us at lorehounds.com and use our contact page.

[01:35:00] So we had one needle drop this episode.

[01:35:41] And it is a song by a Brazilian artist and composer, pianist, guitarist, songwriter, arranger, singer, Antonio Carlos Jobin. And this is the song Wave from 1967 off of his fifth album.

[01:36:00] Apparently, he's one of the biggest Brazilian artists to really move the whole sound of bossa nova to, you know, sort of global prominence. And, yeah, it's a catchy little tune. I think it was sort of another perfect needle drop to give us. Yeah. And I think maybe, you know, I read too much into these things. It's sort of, I guess that's why I'm here. But like, I think I'm like, why is it? Why is this a one song?

[01:36:29] Like, oh, it's called Wave. The last thing that we saw in the previous episode was two waves become one. Yeah, good one. Singular wave. I think it's, I think it harkens to, like, reintegration still matters. That's what I, I mean, again, it's just the jam of a song. But I also think, I think that there's another element in the name of it. I buy that. I buy that theory. One thing we haven't really talked about is... Montauk. Montauk. Montauk.

[01:36:58] The Montauk Project is a conspiracy theory that alleges that there was a series of United States government projects conducted at Camp Hero, or Montauk Air Force Station on Montauk, New York, for the purpose of developing psychological warfare techniques and exotic research, including time travel. And even... What is this? About not maybe nine, eight, nine years ago, there was a carcass that washed up on one of the beaches on Long Island that nobody could identify.

[01:37:28] Was it a dog? Was it a wolf? Was it some sort of bear? You know, and people were like, oh, it came from Montauk because they have a secret research facility there. Which would kind of be in alignment with the seal. Exactly. Yeah. And I would not put it past Ben Stiller to pull something like that for fun. Now you wonder too, like, again, going to how many things are also Civil War related. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Montauk. I think it was a ship in the Civil War.

[01:37:55] And I believe that that's where they had kept conspirators for the Lincoln assassination. And I believe it's also where John Wilkes Booth's body was, autopsy was. Oh, interesting. So that would also be something to do with something traitorous or treacherous that could also be linked up with that, that he was doing to Montauk when he was discovering that she was an Egan. Also, I'm starting to also wonder if these things don't mean any of the things we think they mean.

[01:38:23] Because I was looking at the earlier episodes and everybody's got a name for something that they're working on. Like every project has something like there was, you know, and some of them strike me as a little more benign than, than others. There was like Pacoima was one of them. And I forget some of the, Drainsville, which is also a battle in the Civil War that I think everything I read on it said didn't mean a whole lot.

[01:38:51] So it just, so I don't know. It's, it's interesting that like, you know, these clues are like Cold Harbor is obviously the project he's working on, but it might not necessarily make me the connection that we're all like diving into. Um, so it's interesting. It's just that, that's something that I took away because now I wanted to look at every single project name. Um, but Montauk is pretty, pretty, uh, specific, uh, all the way to like Stranger Things was I guess called that, um, prior to being called Stranger Things. There's a Wikipedia article, Montauk Monster.

[01:39:21] And then there's another one, Montauk Project, which has a bunch of stuff. And I don't know if either of you guys have the, the outline open in Google Docs, but I put a picture of the Montauk Monster in there. Uh, if you want to look, it's a pretty creepy looking thing. It's got a beak and, uh, uh, it doesn't look like any, any known animal. So, uh, let's wrap up with a little bit of, uh, feedback.

[01:39:47] Marine says, responding to the podcast discussion, taking issue of my opinion that Dylan is brilliant. In the last episode of season one, he memorizes the instructions immediately. Also, he could cite Rickon's book by page number. He may have a photographic memory. Hmm. I like that. It's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. Which would really be something because of what an underachiever he is outside. Right. Mm-hmm. That, that kind of comports with, uh, oftentimes people who have exceptional gifts or, or particular

[01:40:15] talents because that talent outweighs everything else that it kind of destabilizes their ability to, to do other things. Well, and then you find that a lot with geniuses. They just can't, they can't handle the mundane. Yeah. If they're not challenged at work, they won't, they can't engage. So they just completely. So in the severance world, he doesn't know that, you know, it's like all he, this is your entire world. There's no really other option. You don't get a chance to do this or that. This is where you live.

[01:40:42] So it's like, so he spends a lot of his time fantasizing and daydreaming about what, how exciting his life must be. Um, because, uh, it would just have to be like, that's kind of where his, his mind goes, right? Like where he creates adventures for him, his life and self to go on. But, um, and I thinking that, oh good, I'm doing all this so that I can live this amazing life. But in reality, it's quite the opposite. Alex B wrote an email. Totally disagree with your take on Dylan's wife in episode three. I don't think she's being manipulated by Lumen.

[01:41:11] This is probably occurring days after Dylan was unfired from Lumen and she understands that he was fired because he got physical with a colleague. I think this is her trying to make a plea to any Dylan not to fuck this up for her and her kids because her husband can't hold down another job. Hmm. Yeah. I, I, I, I don't, I don't necessarily, I felt that it was sincere, but to whatever the motivation was, I, I, I wasn't exactly sure, but I felt it was sincere.

[01:41:42] Renato T wrote in an email, uh, and thinks that the poop in the goat hall looked more human than it does pellet shaped. I kind of think that maybe they just didn't have goat poop. I don't know. They had goats. I don't know why they couldn't use real because goat poop is pellet shaped as they say. So. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's interesting. I think it's just one of those little production details, but the show is not known for that kind of detail, but I don't know why humans would be being in the hallway where goats would be.

[01:42:11] Well, assuming that these goats are pure goats. Yeah. Oh, that's weird. I think that we're losing sight of this. The goat wing has created a goat culture. Mm-hmm. You know, they wear goat heads on the top of their own heads. You know, all of the, all, you know, they're, they're inspired by a goat parable.

[01:42:37] So their entire office culture is really kind of a goat cult. Of course it's human poop in that hallway. They are enacting goat, the, the life of goats in their own office culture. Uh, Douglas D says, Mark never said her body was burned. Watch it again. He says to his sister, if Rickon's body was burned, I'd feel bad for you.

[01:43:06] So casting some doubt on what we actually know and who knows. He's much more critical than that in the email. Don't sell it short. I don't have it. Actually, Nancy, uh, saved me from that. It's pretty, it's pretty, uh, uh, damning. Calling us out. But he's basically saying that, that we are idiots and that we are, we missed a detail. All credibility. And I would, I would say, no, we don't, we don't miss any detail.

[01:43:32] Just like severance, everything we do is intentional and, uh, and it's placed just so I think when he's, so I think the inference is he's all, if Rickon's body was burned, I would be, you know, I would feel bad for you. Um, I don't think it's a leap to assume that he was using that as an example of like basically saying, look, if your husband was also burned, um, cause it would, I thought if it wasn't

[01:43:58] a connection to what he experienced with his wife, it's an odd thing to say, unless he was just doing it to try to create a, uh, uh, kind of a graphic visual to, to, to put it into her head, how, how significant it is to, to lose, uh, a lover. So he creates a very graphic scenario, which is certainly possible at one reading. The other reading is that he's like likening it to his own experience.

[01:44:23] I think that's the most likely solution he's liking in it to his own solution. Now, I don't know if she was burned, but I think that Mark believed that she was, he identified the body and maybe he didn't watch it go into the oven, but I think he does believe it was burned. Right. Karen E says there's a great thread in the Reddit sub, uh, about how.

[01:44:53] Hot Patricia Arquette is, was, and always will be. And I am here for it. It's refreshing to see the world acknowledging that a middle-aged woman can still be certified as a baddie. Well, and if you want to see her have sex like 20 times, watch escape at Denimora. Oh. In case that's, that's something that you're interested in. Okay. Good to know. All right.

[01:45:21] I think that about wraps it up. Any other final thoughts? I just want to reiterate my theory that the goat people are pooping like goats in the hallway. Okay. That's the biggest hot take. I'm doubling down. I'm doubling down on that. Love it. All right. Well, we will be back here next week. Same time for our mid season coverage. Thanks everyone for joining us until then.

[01:45:52] Hang in there. I was right. I was right. Everything I say is right. You'd be better off if you did what I said. I have no sympathy. You should have listened to me. I was right. I was right. I was right. This podcast is a joint production of the Warhound and Properly Howard. Click the link tree in the show notes for links to more podcasts, our Discord server, and ways to support the show.

[01:46:22] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Is it the Frank or the Beans? I was right.