Daredevil: Born Again S1-E1&2 – Heaven's Half Hour & Optics (MCUniverse)

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[00:02:31] Hello, listeners without fear. And welcome to the MC Universe with Comics vs. a Lorehounds podcast. I'm Alicia. And I'm John. And we're here to respond to the first two episodes of the Daredevil Born Again Rebirth of Matt Murdock. We'll start with some quick spoiler-free reactions for those of you considering whether to watch the show before giving you a warning and getting into the dark underbelly of New York City politics.

[00:02:56] Subscribers, make sure you check out our prep episode recapping the Netflix Defenderverse series on Supercast and Patreon. But this episode is for everyone. Stick around until the end for news about the network and a chance to be part of a future podcast discussion.

[00:03:13] Okay, so Daredevil, Man Without Fear. I did a casual poll on our Discord and it seemed like the majority of people have watched the previous shows, but I think we can assume that's probably overrepresented on the Discord. And I bet that there are a lot of people watching this for the first time. Agree. How would you set this up for them? It's not Agatha.

[00:03:43] It's not Loki. It's not Loki. It's not WandaVision. Although it does have the same directors as Luke. Yes, but totally different tone, totally different feel. Camera work is totally different. This is not a series that you should go into thinking that you know what Marvel TV series are about. Because this is not that.

[00:04:13] What it is, is really gritty. If you've watched Echo or heard us talk about Echo, this is something that is really bare bones. It's really, quite literally, bare bones. And it's just, it gives you that feel like you're watching something more akin to the Penguin, I think. Right, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:04:43] Than any other of the Marvel series that we've talked about so far. Yeah. I mean, I always draw a direct line between Wilson Fisk, a.k.a. Kingpin and Penguin from D.C. Because, I mean, they even have the mayor plot line that goes for both as well. But yes, we have Matt Murdock, lawyer by day, vigilante by night, blind, but with all of his other senses heightened to a supernatural degree.

[00:05:13] And Wilson Fisk is his nemesis. And, but I don't know, like there's, I think the relationship between them is kind of at the heart of it. I know you love, you find it very important to have, you know, the hero and the villain, their relationship, like Batman and Joker. Yes, yes. And I think the way the series sets up Fisk as the antagonist for Matt is just, you know, it's just well done.

[00:05:43] Because you can tell that this is, no matter what else is happening in Matt's life, Fisk always looms large. Right? And he's always this figure that is there lurking in the background. Someone that he can't totally be rid of. Right? And it's really a great dynamic to have those two characters, you know, feed off each other because that's what they're actually doing.

[00:06:10] You know, that energy, they both, you know, inhabit that space where they go after each other with vigor. They really, I think, I think they like it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that they would, that they miss each other when they're not in each other's lives. And, you know, it's like, this is from the promo, so I don't consider this a spoiler, but they meet face to face and Fisk says, it's not entirely unpleasant to see you again. Right.

[00:06:38] There is some part, there's almost like a twisted affection between them in some way. Like, I want to see how you're doing, you know? Right. Checking on you. Remember when we were trying to kill each other? Exactly, right. Those were the days. Can we go back to that? Yeah. Sorry. I'll spoiler that. I'll spoiler that. I'll bleep that. Okay. We can't talk about that yet. But, okay.

[00:07:01] So what are your, before we get into the spoilers, what are your spoiler-free hot takes on the first two episodes of the new series? I really loved them. I think they were great. It's a continuation, really, of the Netflix series. And also some of the Marvel series, particularly Echo. Yeah. And Hawkeye. And Hawkeye.

[00:07:27] So that synergy that they're bringing, the cast is bringing, isn't given all of the people who actually watch those Defenderverse shows, it's giving us that feel. And for those who may not have watched the Defenderverse shows, this is the feel. This is what it's about, right?

[00:07:53] And that's why people really love those first few episodes, those first few series on the Netflix Marvel TV shows, because they were totally different in tone from what we were getting on the big screen. Do you think that you need to have seen the Netflix shows to get the most out of this? Or how important do you think it is to have seen those prior shows? I think you should watch the Netflix shows, yes.

[00:08:22] I think you should. I don't think that as the series goes on, like as the first episode went on, I don't believe that you would have had to watch the Netflix Daredevil series to understand what was happening. But at first, I think you might have been taken aback because you didn't know the players and the raison d'être that all of these things were happening.

[00:08:47] Because I think it was the conceit in the series was that this is a continuation of Daredevil. So we've already introduced a host of these characters. We've already introduced the whys. And we're just going to continue down that path. So definitely the beginning 10, 15 minutes might have thrown someone who's never seen them before would have thrown someone off. I could understand that.

[00:09:18] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that you will get what's, you know, that 10, 15 minutes is key. Also because, you know, as we talked in our prep app or in previous episodes before that this, the process that the show went through is that there were six episodes that were recorded. And then everything was put on pause because of the strikes. And that gave them a time, a chance to look at these things. And they're like, what are we doing here?

[00:09:44] This is, you know, this is when the powers that be, the Feige powers that be realized, like, we should just be continuing the Netflix stuff, not doing something completely different. So they ended up replacing the showrunner and the directors in the writing room. And so a lot of this season, particularly episodes two through seven, is the core of what was previously recorded.

[00:10:12] And then they recorded stuff around it. And that first 15 minutes we got in this episode was the new team, was Benson and Moorhead, who are directors that, yeah, they, before they did Marvel stuff, they did sci-fi indie movies. They have this, like, interconnected universe with the endless is a good place to start, if you're curious about that. Although spring is my favorite. And then they did Moon Knight, directing on Moon Knight, directing on Loki.

[00:10:40] So I'm fans of theirs. And I thought seeing that opening of this, and I'm being vague about it still, but that got me really excited. Yes. It makes me excited for, I'm glad they kept the heart of the episode, particularly as it involves a character played by an actor who's passed away now. But it makes me very excited to see, yeah, to get back to the Benson and Moorhead stuff, you know? Yes. Yes.

[00:11:11] Sorry, what is the new showrunner's name? Dario Scardapan. Scardapane? Scardapane. Yeah. He was a producer and writer on The Punisher, and he also did, like, The Bridge and Jack Ryan. So, yeah, I'm very excited about that stuff. But I still really enjoyed these two episodes. And it's hard for me to talk about more without getting spoilery. Yeah. So let's just get into it. Yeah, let's get into it.

[00:11:39] So this is the official spoiler warning. So if you have not watched the episodes yet, I recommend that you go ahead and do that and come back here. I think, yeah, I think we're both saying watch. As long as you're not too adverse to violence. It's very high on the violence scale. Yeah. Our peculiar scale is very high. It's like five. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.

[00:12:03] So, but if, you know, if you don't mind violence, then this is definitely go watch the first two episodes because we're going to talk about them right now. So, yeah, this was, did you read, by the way, there's the Born Again comics, the Frank Miller and David Mazzucchelli? I actually have the collection sitting somewhere on my sofa. My sofa is a mess with comics right now. But, yeah, I have it.

[00:12:32] And I meant to read it before, read it again before the episodes drop. But I got sick and I couldn't do it. So. Yeah. Well, thank you for talking about the episodes. I'll be reading them. Okay. I'll be reading it again. Yeah. I have to say I have not read the comics. So I'm responding purely based on what I know of the character, most particularly from the previous Netflix shows. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

[00:12:58] And by the way, this is apparently the 13th MCU series, which I don't know, 13 is my favorite number. So I thought that was exciting. So we're going to be talking today about not a scene by scene, but just kind of talking about the major plot lines and characters from the first two episodes. Episode one, Heaven's Half Hour, which was written by the new showrunner, Dario Scardipane and directed by Aaron Moorhead and Justin Benson.

[00:13:27] And then and also episode two, Optics, which was written by Matt Corman and Chris Ord, who were the head writers of the previous version of the show and directed by Michael Cuesta, who is also directing the next episode. Yeah. He was one of the previous batch of directors. And he also worked on Six Feet Under, Dexter, Blue Bloods, Homeland, lots of stuff. Do you want to lay out the opening scene? Yeah, let's do it.

[00:13:55] So Matt Murdock crosses a line he swore he never would. Dash I not kill. When old nemesis Benjamin Poindexter, a.k.a. Bullseye, played by Wilson Bethel, attacks the bar where Matt and his friends were hanging out with their lawyer friends and their cop friends, killing Matt's best friend, Foggy. Foggy Nelson, played by Eldon Henson. However, Poindexter survives being dropped from the roof of the building, living to cause more trouble for another day.

[00:14:26] So first of all, I really love the cinematography in this section. I just, the camera work, especially like the way they're playing with depth of field and like the atmosphere that it was setting. That's definitely Benson and Moorhead stuff. What did you think? This was great. My only quibble was when he was on the rooftop. Some of the CGI looked a little clunky to me.

[00:14:54] When he was in the, in his suit. Swinging. That was my only quibble with the entire series so far. But everything else was just, you could just feel like the camaraderie that they have those three characters, Karen, Matt and Foggy. Right. Right.

[00:15:17] From the things that happened before to where they're at now, you could just feel like these, these guys are really friends, you know? And I, and I think, um, the shock of Bullseye coming through the way that he came through. That was jarring because I was not in, in previous, we talked about it a little bit. We were nervous for Foggy.

[00:15:44] You know, we were nervous from, you know, watching the previews and things like that. We were like, oh man, is it really going to happen? It doesn't look good for him. And it turned out that it wasn't good for him. And, um, again, this is, you know, I, I don't have a problem with the offing of Foggy. Can I ask though, is the, did they fridge Foggy to motivate Matt? I don't think so. I feel like they did. I don't think so.

[00:16:11] Because the reason why I don't think so is because Matt has endured his demons are his demons and he's always had them. Mm-hmm. So I don't think he needs the death of a friend to actually push him to become a better version of himself because he's always trying to become a better version of himself. He's not one, it's not as if he's.

[00:16:41] Well, this pushed him to break because he, he, you know, we, we spent a lot of time in the prep app talking about how Matt would never kill. So, and then, you know, and I knew it, I knew it because they, they did such a good, cool thing with the sound mixing with the, where Matt's listening to Foggy's heartbeat slowing down while he's fighting and he's getting more and more, you know, desperate in his fighting as he's, he hears his friend dying. Um, and I, and I knew, I was like, as soon as his heart stops, he's going to push him off the roof.

[00:17:10] And that's exactly what he did. But that is, that is crossing the ultimate line for, I mean, I, yeah, I didn't, I wasn't mad about it at all. But for Matt, that's crossing the ultimate line. Yeah, but he's always been teetering on that line. And what I'm saying is that for Daredevil as a character, Matt Murdock as a character has always walked that fine line. Yes. He pushed them and this happened.

[00:17:37] Foggy dying caused Matt to snap to break his one cardinal rule that he would never. But what I'm arguing is that Matt is always at odds with himself. So he's always questioning and double questioning the way that he's living his life. So I don't think Foggy's death is the thing that's going to cause him to question the way that he's living his life, because he's always done that.

[00:18:06] Whether he's wearing the mask or whether he's not. I mean, when we saw, I mean, he's always, yeah, he's always been questioning it and taking periods where he just goes, retreats from the people in his life, where he retreats from being the daredevil. And that's what we see him go through following Foggy's death. But yeah, I mean, I guess it just broke him to, pushed him to break his one rule, basically.

[00:18:32] And I think fridging someone is specifically done to push a male character. Fridging is, in my mind, is the offing of a female character in order to make a male character better.

[00:18:56] Fridging Foggy is not causing Matt to reevaluate how he is as a person. Because I just think Matt is always reevaluating how he is as a person. You want to know what my new Avengers Secret War moment, you know, when the Russo brothers get Doctor Strange to open all the portals again and have people come through?

[00:19:23] I want Foggy and Maria Hill to walk through holding hands. That was a fridging. Let's be clear. In the show that we don't name on this podcast, that was a fridging. What happened to Maria Hill? And I don't think it's the case for Foggy and Matt. All right. All right. But yeah, so Bullseye, you described him as like the anti-Hawkeye, the dark Hawkeye, basically.

[00:19:52] He's ex-FBI. And he was, yeah, in the original show, Fisk was manipulating him. And then eventually Fisk broke his back. And so we saw him ending with some sort of surgery to rebuild his back. And considering, yeah, Matt threw him on the grounds and he got back up. I'm wondering what else they did to him in that surgery. What they did to him, exactly.

[00:20:18] What kind of reinforcements or what kind of, you know, dare I say, what kind of metals were used to stitch him back together? Yeah. I mean, they said, so in the comics, I know it's adamantium in his spine. But they said in the original show, they said something else. And I forget what it was. It was kind of more like a nanotech sort of thing. But it's because they didn't have the rights to say adamantium at the time. To say adamantium. Exactly. But now, obviously, adamantium's in play. So, yeah.

[00:20:49] Because it's see our discussion of Captain America Brave New World, if you want to learn more about that. But yeah, it just makes me wonder, like, and who sent him? Was it just him going on a pure revenge spree? Or is someone controlling him? I mean, that's what they want us to believe, I think, that it's him just being, you know, bent on revenge. But I can't, I don't know.

[00:21:16] Like, watching it, I was like, oh, okay, he's back to get them, right? But as I thought about it, I'm just like, I don't know. Maybe there's a little birdie in his ear, you know, pushing him to these lengths. But that's the mystery that we'll hopefully solve or get to the bottom of. Because he's still alive, he's in jail, and I don't think it's the last that we'll see of him.

[00:21:45] No, no, no, I think definitely not. Well, I'm guessing that this is one of the threads that they're pulling from the original series to tie together more. So I know the seven episodes in the middle, or sorry, the six episodes in the middle are more, are most like the episodes that were already filmed before. So I think he's going to come back into play in the last two episodes, which were, again, written by the showrunner and directed by Benson and Moorhead. Okay, okay.

[00:22:17] Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, he was last seen in the show, like, he was, he really terrorized Karen. So, you know, Karen Debra Ann Wohl, she has, she's conveniently moved to San Francisco, I think for similar reasons, because she can't be there in the middle episodes.

[00:22:37] Um, I'm wondering, I mean, first of all, like, I feel for her, the fact that, fact that Matt shut her out after Foggy's death and a, she lost her friend too. And B it's kind of like double traumatic for her compared to what anyone else would experience because he was, he was calling back to when he terrorized her before, you know, and he was, he was going after her next. Right. Um, yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:06] And so that's, that's got to have really messed with her head. And then her, the only surviving best friend just shuts her out. Like, yeah, I'd be pissed too. But while she's in San Francisco, just saying, maybe she'll get into entertainment law or entertainment journalism. I'm waiting for you to bring that up. Somebody needs a partner. Maybe she's going to like help Wonder Man or a white vision. Yeah.

[00:23:36] Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. What did you think of, we'll, we'll get into the next section, but what did you think about the new, so it feels like they're kind of trying to replace Foggy and Karen with, um, Cherry and Chris, Kirsten. Sorry. Sorry. Kirsten. And because Cherry even discovers at the end of the opening that Matt is daredevil. Um, and then Kirsten's the friend, like setting him up on blind dates and stuff. What did you think of Cherry and Kirsten?

[00:24:04] Um, they were cool. I thought Cherry was more of a Ben, you know, type of. Yeah. Of. That's his energy. Yeah. Ben Yorick, who was a, um, a reporter in the original series. Who was Karen's mentor. Who was Karen's mentor. I thought he was more like that. Um, and you know, Kirsten was fine. And I didn't have a problem with either one of them.

[00:24:32] I thought there's good additions to the show, you know, um, more black and brown faces everywhere you go. I'm okay with that. Um, and I didn't feel, I don't, I don't want them to be like Foggy and Karen. Right. Because they're not. So they shouldn't have the same relationships with Matt that they had. You know what I mean? Right. So it's, it's okay for me to, to see them.

[00:24:58] And the banter is not particularly like it was with Foggy or like it was with, with Karen. But these are two different people who have different relationships with Matt. And, and I think it's important that we show the differences that they show the differences that he has with other people. Right. Because that's what makes his relationships with Foggy, um, and Karen special. Right.

[00:25:25] Because if he can be the same way with someone else as he is with them, then what, what makes them special in his life. Right. So I'm, I'm cool with both of them and I'm cool with the dynamic that they've set up so far. Um, I mean, I'm cool with them. It's just that it was like, we got teased at the beginning with Foggy and Karen and then, you know, and then it's like, well, this isn't, I was really, cause I love the dynamic with the friendships.

[00:25:53] And so far these two, they're, they're likable enough. You know, nothing, the, the, the actors are great. Um, I think it comes down more to the writing is just a bit plain, which I think again, goes back to this being from the prior team. And so I just, uh, it was, it's, it was a bit jarring to be like, Oh, my faves are back. Oh, and now they're gone. And okay. Um, so I guess I just, yeah, I'm, I really enjoyed the episodes,

[00:26:23] but I just feel like I'm in a bit of a holding pattern, feeling more excited for what's coming. Okay. Okay. Then what I'm seeing so far per se. That's fair. Although I thought it was a really strong opening, even though I'm mad about Foggy. No, that's fair. That's fair. And we should, I guess we should say Cherry was retiring from the NYPD. That's obviously going to get him certain kinds of access and things like that, that are helpful to this crew.

[00:26:52] Um, all right. Should we take a quick pause here and then come back and talk about some key characters? Sure. All right. Just a sec. See you guys on the other side.

[00:27:02] So one year later, Matt Murdock has retired his daredevil persona, focusing on his new law practice with Kirsten McDuffie.

[00:27:30] Bullseye has been sentenced to life in prison. And Karen, who now lives in San Francisco, is not on regular speaking terms with Matt, who shut her out after Foggy's death. Kirsten cheers Matt up by setting him up on a surprise blind date with her therapist friend, Heather Glenn. And the two hit it off despite themselves. So I should say Heather Glenn is played by Margarita Levieva. And, uh, that was Mother Coral on the Acolyte. Oh, I didn't even know that.

[00:28:00] Nice. I didn't. Yeah. I recognized her name, but I didn't. I mean, obviously she looks very different on the Acolyte because she's a Zabrak. But so I didn't, did not physically recognize her. I'm like, I know that name. Oh, that's so cool. Love that. Yeah. Bring back the Acolyte. Bring back the Acolyte. Give us season two. Come on. We were about to get Plagueis and Yoda fighting. Come on. Okay. All right. All right. All right. All right. Anyway. Um, yeah.

[00:28:29] So what did you think of, so this is now, uh, the actress, she said that she thinks that this is the most that Matt Murdock has committed to any of his girlfriends is with this character. Um, they seem to be rather settled into things. What did you think about this whole twist? Um, it's okay, but I worry for her.

[00:28:54] So I'm, I'm, I'm very, um, you know, I looked at my wife and I said, Hey, I don't think this is a good thing that's happening. I said, I don't think it's a good thing that's happening here. And she was like, Oh, yeah. I think you're right. I think you're right. So we're both very worried for, for the good doctor here. Um, but, um, they were fine together.

[00:29:22] You know, I'm not, I don't think she, she's the end game. I mean, it's all about a lecturer, right? When it comes to daredevil for me, for me, I know based on the comics, it should be, but they did not convince me last time. No, they didn't. But for me in my head, it's always all about a lecture. Um, so I'm not, um, upset. I think they were perfectly, you know, they look great on camera together.

[00:29:51] Their dynamic was cool. It was fun. It was light, but Matt is not a cool, fun, light guy. No, no. There's a lot of darkness there. And I don't know if this, um, if the good doctor is ready for the darkness. Yeah. Apparently she doesn't like vigilantes. So awkward. Yeah. Yeah. All right. And so Wilson Fisk, uh, after ghosting his wife, following a long recovery after being

[00:30:20] shot in the face, Wilson Fisk, AKA Kingpin has returned to Vanessa and New York city, wanting to run for mayor, a populist leader in a despairing city. He runs an anti-vigilante campaign and wins the election. So. Yeah. Um, I guess you want to remind people why Wilson was shot in the face. Because he killed someone. Family. That's why.

[00:30:49] And then pretended that he didn't know what was going on and then tried to raise that child as a loving father figure. Yes. Loving in air quotes. Yeah. That should get you shot in the face. There you go. So that was from echo. Um, yeah. Said child is deaf and he never learned sign language her entire life. Yes. And there's that. Yeah. And there's that.

[00:31:14] So if you haven't watched echo, this is where he gets the idea actually that he should run for mayor. Yeah. He gets shot in the face in Hawkeye, the end of Hawkeye. And then, uh, he's recovering in echo and then he goes and finds her in Oklahoma instead of like, so apparently he gets shot in the face and it's this long recovery. And so his wife is sitting by his side and then afterwards when he's done, he goes after echo to Oklahoma rather than say anything to his wife.

[00:31:43] Is that like what you're taking from their exchanges? I think, um, I think he might've even shut her out before he, he got better and went looking for Maya, um, AKA echo in the echo series. So I think he definitely shut her out before that. So yeah, I'm, I'm sure that he's, um, he's Wilson Fisk, man. Yeah.

[00:32:10] So the guy is, you know, he's, he's always, you don't know what you're going to get with them. So if you're married to that type of personality, I think these are things that you should expect because he's not totally honest with himself and the world and with you.

[00:32:35] So at any moment he could decide that I need to take care of something and you will not be the primary thought in his mind, right? How it affects you is not going to be central to him doing what he wants to do. You have to, you have to know that.

[00:32:58] And I think Vanessa on some level knows that, um, but she still feels pain by it. And I'm asking myself why, because she knows who she married. She knows who this man is. But I, I mean, the mind and the heart are often at odds. I guess. And she did, I don't blame her for, she apparently had, was having an affair with someone named

[00:33:26] Adam and she made Fisk promise not to hurt him. She said, don't kill him. I mean, like, to your point, she knows who she married. She knows who she married, right? Yeah. She's like, I know about Paul. No, I know about Adam. Adam. Yeah. I know about Adam. And she looked, she said, don't kill him. That, that, that was gangster right there. That was gangster. That was some shit like, yo. I said, yo.

[00:33:56] She looked at that man. She just said, don't kill him. Not, I'm sorry. Not, you know, no reasoning. Just don't kill this person. Yeah. That's who you're married to. When he alleges, he recognizes your affair. And the one thing you can say to him is not to kill the person. Yeah.

[00:34:20] So, and of course, in a, in a twist of fate, fit for fiction, um, his, their new couples counselor is Heather, Matt's new girlfriend. So that's obviously going to be great. And it's not like they're not going to be able to be like, well, Hey Heather, I just don't want him to kill my, uh, the guy, my side piece. So I'm wondering if they're going to have some coded language in those meetings.

[00:34:46] I wonder when she tells Matt that she's the, the therapist for the mayor, how he's going to react. Right. Right. Well, yeah, I guess she's sworn to secrecy. Right. So she, you know, she's not, I don't think she's going to tell what the therapy sessions are. No, but I mean, I think, didn't he say that she's sworn to secrecy about the fact that she's giving the mayor therapy at all. I mean, come on now. We'll see. She seems like a rule follower. She doesn't like vigilantes. Okay. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see.

[00:35:16] We'll see. At some point it's going to come out, but it might take a bit. So Fisk also, Fisk swears to Matt that he was not involved in Fuggy's murder. Do you believe him? Yes. I do too. Yeah. I think he would say it if he were. Yes, he would. And why would he be? He would. He would say it. Yeah. And why, I don't think he's concerned with that at all right now. You know? Yeah. I don't think he has anything to hide from Matt Murdoch. No.

[00:35:45] No, that's a thing. They know who they are. They know each other better than most people know either of them. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So they're kind of at a truce right now where both have threatened the other if they go back to their old ways, which obviously, I mean, it seems like Matt's going to be the first one to break that because he already, he had a good cause, but we'll talk about how the episode ends in a minute.

[00:36:13] But he was kicking ass and taking names. Yes, he was. Yes, he was. I don't think he was even taking names. He's just kicking ass. But before we get into that, you mentioned Ben Urich, who was Karen's former mentor, the journalist. His niece is now a young journalist named Bebe. And I worry for Bebe. Yeah. Well, she does not know.

[00:36:42] She thinks that she can like get close to Fisk, get the exclusive scoop and it will help her career, but she does not realize that Fisk killed her uncle. Do you think she doesn't realize? I think she does not realize. I think she's naive and that's a problem. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Be led to dark places by her naivety. I kind of felt like she was digging. You think? Oh, you think? Yeah. Hmm. I kind of felt like she was digging. I hope so.

[00:37:12] I hope you're right. I want that for her. I don't think she was blind. I think she was digging. Okay. Okay. That would be good. Yeah. Yeah. And then the, the other, oh, I should say, um, James Gandolfini son, Michael Gandolfini is a kiss ass in Fisk's office. So he's a character in play. We'll see. He's so far. He's amusing. It'll be interesting to see. I definitely know that guy. I went to school with a lot of that, that guy.

[00:37:42] But yeah. And then the, the other big thing was Fisk is still not really above his old ways because the police commissioner wants to resign in protest because he thinks Fisk is corrupt. And so to Fisk doesn't pretend not to be corrupt. He just blackmails him instead with, he's like comes in, he's eating a cheesesteak and he goes off on this like tangent about cheesesteaks. And this is where I'll remind the dear listener that I'm from Philadelphia originally.

[00:38:11] So first he, he says, I like Gino's, which is the one where the two original cheesesteak places in South Philly are Pat's and Gino's. And it was always told to me growing up. I've actually never even had Gino's because it's like not allowed to say you prefer Gino's if you're from Philly. I actually prefer Jim's on South Street, but anyway. And then he says, no, but I got this one from, and he calls it D'Angelo's in King of Prussia.

[00:38:37] And I think that they added a D. There is a restaurant in King of Prussia. It's an Italian restaurant and does also sell cheesesteaks called Angelo's. And that's, I've, I've eaten there lots of times, eating from, you know, takeouts and stuff. And this, I think, but he slandered the sandwiches, which is false because their food is all very good. So, so I think that's why they added the D. Nice, nice, nice. But yeah, you can check out Angelo's.

[00:39:06] But yeah, so he shows him, basically, he went out to King of Prussia because apparently that's where the police commissioner has his secret love child. And he's basically threatening to expose this secret love child if he doesn't stay on the force and be Fisk's pawn, which I'm sure is going to go great for everybody. So quick sidebar here.

[00:39:27] There was a Marvel Comics event where Wilson Fisk became the mayor of New York City and outlawed vigilantes, formed the Thunderbolts, and had everyone who was a vigilante, you know, if you were out doing good, we're going to arrest you.

[00:39:53] And it came to a head when one Luke Cage said, you know what? I'm not here to fight you, but I am here to run against you as mayor. And in the comics, Luke Cage is now mayor of New York City. Okay. That would be cool. I don't know if any of this matters or not.

[00:40:20] But I know that they just started recording filming season two. And it sounds like it sounds like at least they've been interviewing Charlie Cox and Vincent D'Onofrio about it. And obviously they can't say much, but it sounds like they are very they're like, it's it's it's a lot. It's devastating. It's beautiful. It's yeah. So I'm very excited about season two. And that would be like I could see in the last two episodes this season, like Jessica or

[00:40:50] Luke or something showing up in season two, them going more into that. Fingers crossed. Let's see. Let's see. Or do you want to set up the last major character? Sure. So now Matt overhears some corrupt cops beaming up a man at the police station and talks to him. Victor Ayala. And he takes him as a client. Victor Ayala is charged with killing a cop.

[00:41:16] Matt, who's super hearing and smell makes him a human lie detector test, can tell that Hector is telling the truth about what happened that night. But he's hiding something else. So, yeah, I mean, so basically that night, Hector was was going down to the subway and he saw two guys beating up a third guy and he tried to he like started fighting the two guys who were beating up the third guy who ran away.

[00:41:40] And one of them, I don't think he pushed he I guess he did not push him because it he seemed to believe he didn't. But the guy fell in front of the tram. That was what? That was wicked. Yeah. That was wicked when the train came across his face. Oh, my God. I yelled out loud. I yelled out loud. And dear listener, can I just say something? Even though Alicia is from Philly, she is so European. She just said tram instead of train. Sorry. I heard you.

[00:42:11] Listen, I've lived for 20 years in Amsterdam. They are trams. Yeah. They're trams in Amsterdam. That's right. So, yeah. But that was a wicked shot when that when he got hit. I said, oh, I said, oh, I said, oh, no. Oh, no. And it happened. And all the blood splattered. It was just wicked. Yeah. Wicked. Yeah. Yeah. That was that hit really hard. But yeah. So basically.

[00:42:40] And then it turns out that the two guys who are beating up the third guy are corrupt cops and corrupt cops who, when Matt's fighting them later, have a tattoo on their wrist that looks like a Punisher skull. What do you think that's about? I think they they see themselves as Frank Castle. You think they're not?

[00:43:03] I think they could be in the NYPD on the police force saying Frank Castle had it right. We're going to do things his way. But they're not sanctioned by Frank. No. Yeah. Because it doesn't like Frank Castle is not the type to, you know, take acolytes and work with people. That's not his MO. Yeah. He's not he's not one to just murder. No. Innocence. No. Wantonly. Because we established he does have empathy. Right.

[00:43:33] Unlike Fisk. Yeah. So I don't think that they're working with with Frank, but I do think that they've taken on. They idolize him. Yeah. That was my immediate reaction. Yeah. Yeah. So we also learned that Hector and his wife are estranged and Kirsten and Cherry go over there and Kirsten distracts her while Cherry searches his room and finds a white tiger costume, which I don't know. Do you know much about white tiger from the comics? Yeah.

[00:44:01] White tiger is a really cool character, but there's many. There's been different variations of the character. And so throughout history, you know, Puerto Rican, New York City, everything that we that we've seen so far tracks. He was the first Latin American superhero, right? For Marvel. I think it might've been. I'm not sure. I don't want to say so, but I'll double check. Yeah. I recall hearing that. All right. Cool.

[00:44:31] And the amulet gives him, you know, powers when he wears the amulet. Um, so, you know, he's a great martial artist, um, increased hearing senses, speed, stamina, all of that, you know, superhero stuff that the pendant gives, gives to him. If you ever, if you know about Vixen and DC comic books, she, she wears a pendant. She could take on the, the, um, characteristics of what animals she's thinking of.

[00:45:00] White tiger has the same exact thing, except it's only just one animal. So it's not just, you know, any animal that she can think of. That he can think of. Yeah. I mean, I heard somewhere that there's like three pieces of a pendant that you put, they were put together in the comic. It looks like he has one pendant here, but, um, um, uh, yeah, it's a good thing that they can pass it down. And like I said, it's a good thing they kept this part because the actor who plays him, Camar de los Reyes, he passed away in 2023 of cancer.

[00:45:29] So, um, yeah, I, I'm guessing that they will have worked that into the script and we will see a different white tiger, uh, future seasons. I think the most recent comics has Angela, his niece. Right. If I can recall correctly. I think it's his niece. Well, so I know his niece and his sister both took on the mantle at one point, but I don't know in which order. Yeah. So I'm guessing it'll be one of those. Um, or wouldn't it be interesting if his wife stepped in?

[00:45:57] Oh, that would be interesting, but. I mean, we barely know her, but. Yeah, we don't know anything about her yet. Yeah. Does she even know that he's the white tiger? I mean, it seemed like, like it was pretty easy for Cherry to find it under the bed. It was just in like, I mean, although I guess how often do you look under your husband's side of the bed? I haven't looked under the bed in years. So let's be honest.

[00:46:26] So there were, what did you think of the costume? Because people were talking shit on it, but I don't see what the problem is. No, I like the costume. Yeah. I mean, white tiger. Yes. He should have stripes. I don't, what are we complaining about? I don't know. I like the costume and I want to see more of it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking forward to seeing, to seeing this story play out. And I'm really glad that they get this. And so we see, so yeah, Daredevil or sorry, Matt Murdoch made an interesting lawyer move

[00:46:55] where he's like, okay, so I found out this thing about my clients that could really blow up this case. If it gets out, let's assume it's going to get out. So he goes to the judge's chambers with the opposing attorney and basically gets the judge to agree that they can't talk about the fact that he's a vigilante in court because it would be too prejudicial, which yeah, because there's a whole anti-vigilante thing going on with Fisk and everything. So yeah, that's a, seems, feels like a legit thing to do.

[00:47:25] Obviously the lawyer's not happy about it, but I have a feeling it's going to come out anyway. And the final fight, what did you think, which do you think went harder? The opening fight of episode one, uh, where in the bar or the final fight in the apartment of episode two? Oh man, that's tough. Cause that apartment fight was crazy. Yeah. Actually I'm going to go with the apartment fight. Yeah. That apartment fight was crazy.

[00:47:53] That was, yeah, that just, that was nuts. That was nuts. That like had me like holding my face, you know? And I think it was more sustained because with the bullseye fight, there were ebbs and flows to it. You know, like when there, he's chasing him up the, the stairwell, you know what I mean? Yeah. So, but in the apartment fight, it was like, yo, let's, we're going to scrap, we're going to scrap and that's it.

[00:48:23] You know, there was no breathers. There was no time to take a breath even, you know? So I think, I think the apartment fight was harder. Yeah. I think that hit harder. Yeah. I got to go. I got to go with the, with that one as well. Um, I mean, so did Matt kill the cops? Because it sounded like the one cop's neck went crunch when he went on the ground. I know. I don't, I don't know. I thought he died.

[00:48:52] You thought that the cop died. Yeah. I mean. I thought the cop died. So like, is Matt, if, if that's the case, is Matt a superhero who kills people now? I mean, I don't got a problem with it. It's a, it's a change, but you know, that's, that's basically they're saying that he's been, that's how far he's been pushed now. Wow. I don't know. I don't got a problem with it. I've dealt with my Catholic guilt. So, you know. But has Matt, has Matt.

[00:49:21] But has Matt, that's the question. Yeah. Catholic guilt incoming. Exactly. Um, we'll see if, we'll see if the cop is dead or not. Yeah. Yeah. Because they didn't say, they didn't give us, you know, exact proof that the person is no longer with us. So let's, let's hold off on it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and the other thing was that Matt did this fight, not as a daredevil. So he didn't pick up the daredevil mantle again. I don't know.

[00:49:48] Fisk will care about the difference, but, um, it must've also been interesting for the cops where they're like, Oh, blind lawyer. We're going to take him out. Easy peasy. Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? You put a gun to someone's head and then all of a sudden your arm is broke. Like what the fuck? Like what just happened here? Like how did this happen to me? You know? Uh, that ass kicking was epic. Yeah. And does, and it felt very earned because obviously. No, definitely.

[00:50:19] They spent like the entire episode making sure we hated those two cops. Yeah. Yeah. And the one cop even says, you know, wasn't even sure to do it. You know, he wasn't ready to really do it. And the other one was like, yeah. Yeah. So peer pressure is a motherfucker. Hopefully the one who was peer pressured is the one whose neck didn't go snap. I didn't really pay close enough attention. Yeah. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. Any, any more thoughts on these first two episodes?

[00:50:48] Um, I'm really, I'm really afraid for the doctor. You know, I really think this Vanessa and, and Fisk therapy session is not going to end up well for her. And I'm curious. I'm very curious to see how Vanessa continues her, you know, underworld dealings with folks

[00:51:15] knowing that the way they exited the room when Fisk walked in leaves her in a very almost tenuous position. Yeah. As the head of the crime. Yeah. They made it clear. Yeah. Like who's really in charge. Mm-hmm. So I'm very curious to see how she reacts to that. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

[00:51:42] Uh, yeah, I think that that's, that's really, uh, the through line that I'm looking forward to the most perhaps is, is to see how Wilson and Vanessa sort this out because they've always had a really compelling relationship, even though neither of them are good people, but, um, they're compelling characters. Yeah. I was about to say, you took the word right out of my mouth. I think Vanessa in these first two episodes was the most compelling character for me. Yeah.

[00:52:11] I'm so glad that I like Sandrine Holt, who they were going to recast her with. I like her as an actress in general, but they did not need to recast that they did not. No, absolutely. Yeah. So let's talk a little feedback. We did get an email from Ken Walsh who says, hello, Foggy. No, why bring him back and just kill him off? Ridiculous in my opinion, but otherwise Daredevil is back.

[00:52:36] Bullseye wasn't as good as the original series fights, but the Dirty Cop one was brilliant. Loved the first two episodes. I just love to wait and binge the whole series. Unfortunately, with shows like these, there are too many spoilers around. May you be in heaven with a full half hour before the devil knows you're dead. And then Shamrocks and beers. Ken W. Oh, man. Yeah. Like I said, I'm sad that Foggy's gone. Of course I am.

[00:53:06] I was shocked. Even though I kind of expected it, I was still taken aback by it, but I'm okay with it. Yeah. I want to see where they take this story. I mean, I'm always, you know, I hate to lose. I just, I really liked Foggy and we just got him back. I hate to lose him already. So, you know, I'm always like, I'm like, this is a supernatural universe. Bring those characters back. I'm fine with that. Okay.

[00:53:34] So if you want to listen to that Defendersverse prep ep that we talked about, you'll find that in the Supercast and Patreon feeds. But we are going to be covering the series as a whole in this public feed like this one. So we're going to be doing two or three episodes at a time. We'll be figuring out our schedule. I was looking at the, it looks like that there are character arcs. So maybe we'll, I mean, that there are arcs in terms of who's directing.

[00:54:02] So maybe we'll do the next three episodes and then two at a time. Okay. It looks like those are the way that they've divided the directing movies, which often signal story arcs. Yeah. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. And also, I guess in the meantime, we need to do your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man. So I think that's our next one. Which was very fun. It was very fun. And speaking of Daredevil. Yeah. It was a very fun watch.

[00:54:31] And also Wheel of Time coverage is already being recorded, getting lined up for the first three episodes to drop on March 13th. So see the spoiler cast that's out already. And we've also already set up a season pass. So anyone who wants to get on that, that's an option. But of course, subscribers get access to that, to the Daredevil prep app, to all the extra Severance episodes. Which, yeah.

[00:55:00] Anyone who doesn't know by now, Severance season's almost over. But there's a separate feed for that one. And subscribers, by the way, are also going to get access to John's Millennial Madness movie of the month, which is between Scott Pilgrim and Zoolander. Those two are neck and neck in the poll. So if you're a subscriber, make sure you get your vote in ASAP. In the show notes, you'll find the link tree with links to all the other affiliates on the network.

[00:55:30] Radioactive Ramblings is covering Invincible with weekly breakdowns. And of course, my own Wollship Dust going into Dune. The Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast. You can catch up on Rings and Rituals. Properly Howard movie reviews. And always the music meets psychology of Nevermind the Music. And you'll find a link to the Discord in there as well, where we have a Marvel forum under current shows with a chat for Daredevil and a bunch of other Marvel stuff and everything else. And yeah, the Daredevil chat's been hopping.

[00:56:00] Yeah, it has. It has. I think a lot of people are tuning in. Like you said earlier, when we started, a lot of people who've watched the previous shows or maybe one or two episodes, I mean, seasons, not necessarily all three. But there definitely are a lot of people who haven't. So this is their first experience. We have lots of great chatter going on there.

[00:56:26] Like Sub-Zero said yesterday, I'm intrigued by the Fisk-Vanessa relationship. I always felt like he loved her more than she loved him. I think she does love him, but she also saw him as a means to an end. I think she had largely achieved that end when Fisk was gone and she was running the syndicate. So now I think she's no longer sure if she still wants this relationship. I'm also fearful for the therapist.

[00:56:51] She will inevitably learn too much and become a liability or Fisk somehow learns that she's dating Daredevil. I concur with the therapist. But I'm not sure. I think Vanessa truly loves Wilson without strings. Without the pomp and circumstance of him being who he is. Obviously, yes, he's a player in the city.

[00:57:17] A man of importance, however that importance is, right? But I do think that she loves him genuinely. Yeah. I think he was definitely the one who wooed her and she had to be won over. But then I think she did fall in love and also fall in love with being this power couple together. Yeah, absolutely. But it still doesn't mean that he might step on some toes. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:46] um so joe herbers on the discord said the effects in the first episode were a bit wonky on things that weren't clear to me as someone who hasn't watched much of the original i didn't understand the intent to the attack was this bad guy here to kill cops he seemed to target foggy and he knows who karen is but once daredevil engages the guy forgets karen and seems to kill indiscriminately cops initially then apparent civilians in the stairs is he after daredevil

[00:58:14] he seems to be trying to flee in either case why waste weapons and effort killing randos when he needs to hurt daredevil also does he know that daredevil is matt murdoch um so yeah pausing there and i yeah that is what i is something that that you would learn in the uh prior show but right so he does know who daredevil is and but you and i we had the same questions this episode like is he

[00:58:42] why is he there why is he doing this why now you know exactly exactly it's something that we we hope will get answered but for for the folks again who saw those previous seasons of daredevil then you can always go back to vengeance as his raison d'ethe but i don't i just don't think that's

[00:59:06] personally i don't think that's the only reason that he was there yeah yeah i mean i i think you know so joe goes on to ask um he's he says yeah it would have been good to have dialogue for his motivations and how does he survive but i think we're we're meant to wonder these things you know physically he should not survive um so we know even if you don't know that he got a surgery after fisk broke his back years before this um then yeah you should be asking questions about why did

[00:59:36] he survive why is he silent in the courtroom why did he do this in the first place we we don't know even from watching we don't know this is definitely a question up in the air yeah okay well we definitely want to hear from you guys at home as well um so please do send your thoughts to mcu at the lowerhounds.com and we'll include your feedback in our future episodes uh what do you think of the

[01:00:01] show so far what are you hoping for stuff like that do you have any final thoughts before we do the reading of the names no um the reading of the names that's what that's what every show should call that's it it should always be known from here on out the reading of the names that's it there's nothing else to end okay i don't have anything to say reading of the names let's go

[01:00:26] all right so since the metal folder was popular in our prep episode we're pulling from the metal folder again in honor of matt murdoch this one is called fallen angel thank you to our discord server boosters erin k tiller the thriller dork of the ninjas dude 71 athena ajalea tina let's do nancy m ghost of partition radioactive richard thank you to all of our subscribers to our lore hounds and

[01:00:53] thank you most of all to our lore masters our highest tier of subscribers they are samartian michael g michelle e brian peace sc peter o h bettina w adam s nancy m doove 71 brian 8063 frederick h sarah l gareth c matthew m sarah m dj miwa andra b kuong yu dead i jedi bob

[01:01:13] nathan t alex v sub zero aaron k dally v mothership 61 naros kathy w let's do jeffrey b elisa yu neil f ben b scott f steven n julia f carly s il mario and always last adrian and jump what do you have to say to mr

[01:01:35] kevin feige damson idris is t'challa the lore hounds podcast is produced and published by the lore hounds you can send questions and feedback and voicemails at the lore hounds.com contact get early and ad-free access to all lore hounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the lore hounds any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or

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