Doctor Who - S02E01 - The Robot Rebellion

[00:00:00] The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. In one podcast called The Lorehounds by Some, a weekly recap with tons of analysis, two Wheel of Time superfans will lead you through a world of powerful magic, tricky prophecies, and cutthroat politics. Join me, John, and my co-host Alicia for weekly coverage of Season 3 by searching your podcast app for The Lorehounds. Dov'e andi se tovas again.

[00:00:29] It's time to roll the dice. Welcome to the Sonic Screwcast with The Lorehounds, your guides to all of time and space. I'm John.

[00:00:56] And I'm Alicia, and this is our coverage of the BBC and Disney Plus series Doctor Who. In this episode, we'll be discussing Season 2, Episode 1 titled The Robot Revolution. While we enjoy discussing the show amongst ourselves, we also want to hear from you, so please send us an email at TARDIS at thelorehounds.com or join our Discord server via the link tree in the show notes. Lastly, for ad-free access to our podcasts and bonus content, use the same link tree to get

[00:01:26] to Patreon and Supercast and subscribe. And we've got a guest host with us today. Captain's Pod Ian is making us more authentic. I love that because I'm English. I have Doctor Who in my blood. We're no longer heretics, right? No longer apostates. I don't know. The first time I listened to you guys, I was like, this is bold. They're both American. They have got a token English person to talk to. It was amazing.

[00:01:55] Yeah, we came to it later in the game, but that doesn't mean our love is any less. Absolutely not. You are just as valid as all of us old Doctor Who fans. So Ian, you don't usually talk about Doctor Who though. You talk about the, it's funny, you talk about the American long-running sci-fi. Can you talk about what you do at Captain's Pod? Captain Pod? Oh my God, I can't talk tonight. Captain's Pod. It is Captain's Pod. Yeah. A guide to Star Trek.

[00:02:23] So yeah, my main Star Trek, yeah, Star Trek, whatever you've got, John, I think I've caught it. My main sci-fi passion has been, and always shall be, Star Trek. So we have a podcast where the self-confessed Star Trek expert, myself, guides my co-host, Denae, through Star Trek. And she used to watch Star Trek way, way, way back in the day, but she's lapsed.

[00:02:51] And she has sadly fallen away from Star Trek, and it's my job to bring her back. So I'm gradually, episode by episode, reintroducing her to all of the 900 plus episodes and movies of Star Trek, and seeing if we can get her back into it. I'm honestly surprised that there's only 900 episodes. Yeah. Yeah, they should put out some more. Yeah, they're overdue. I feel like there should be more right now. Like, Doctor Who even has passed that.

[00:03:19] Yeah, I mean, I think Doctor Who has a few years head start. Yeah, it does. I think. Just one or two, yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, actually, when did Star Trek start? Seventies? And who was fifties? It was late sixties, wasn't it? Yes. Who was 63? Yeah. Okay. So actually not that much. Yeah. Yeah. Just a few years. But Doctor Who has been, I think, more consistent. It's had fewer gaps.

[00:03:47] There was a big, big gap in the 90s, the dead zone. Yeah. And then obviously the revival, it's been nonstop since 2005. It's wild to think that it's been back on the air a lot longer than it was ever off the air, which baffles my brain. Yeah, it's now a mainstay. The new who, new new who, whatever we're in now is now a mainstay. So what is your who history or who story?

[00:04:14] I'm going to be really silly tonight because this is a silly show. I love it. It's a silly show. It has gotten sillier and sillier over the years and I kind of love it. While Star Trek is my main passion and kind of my day job, Doctor Who is my sci-fi. This is the one that I found myself. I thought you were saying my side. No, never mind. My side piece. It's not my sidekick. Nope. This is my, I guess it could be my side hustle. I wish.

[00:04:40] Um, but no, Star Trek was introduced and forced upon me by my dad. So that was just always going to be in my blood. Doctor Who I found accidentally just flicking channels when I was seven or eight. So Doctor Who at that time was not broadcasting any episodes, but it was on, it was on repeats and just in syndication on, it was a channel called UK gold, which only the Brits will, will know exist.

[00:05:07] And 7am in the morning, Doctor Who would come on. And the first episode I ever accidentally watched was planet of the planet of the spiders, which spoiler is the third doctor's regeneration episode. So I got to the end of that. This bonkers, insane, crazy, incredible main character changed his face outside of a blue box that I didn't understand.

[00:05:33] There wasn't really much kind of traveling around in the TARDIS, but, um, yeah, I, I fell in love with it. Had to come back the next day to watch the next part and was quite literally hooked. Um, ever since then. That's great. John Pertwee, uh, would you say, where does he rank in your doctors now? Oh man. It, you know, it depends on which doctor I'm currently watching. There are, whichever one is in front of me is my favorite, but I think he might be, oh man.

[00:06:04] I think he's third or fourth. He jumps around. He's, he's high up. I have a real soft spot, soft spot for John Pertwee. He really is. He really defined what we think of as the modern doctor who like from him onwards, he, he really is the doctor or the flamboyancy and the disregard for anything other than what he's currently doing. I think that's true. I think it's interesting because I think Matt Smith's doctor was kind of a fusion of him and Patrick Trotten.

[00:06:33] Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Which, which is, uh, I've only watched through some of, but probably like half of the John Pertwee era in classic who I'm trying to go through all of classic who eventually, but it's a lot. Uh, but, but yeah. And now I'm, I'm rambling about classic who, but we're here to talk about new, new who we've re we've redone the seasons and everything. We're in new New York where, uh, we're doing everything before I move to Alicia. Who's your favorite doctor? Oh my.

[00:07:02] Oh no, it's not fair. It's not fair. My one, one in new who one in all who it is. My favorite is Tom Baker and that is, it's such a cop out, but sometimes everybody likes pizza because pizza is the best. Um, so there's a very good reason why, uh, Tom Baker is top of the list, but yeah, of, of it's evolved who it's Tom Baker of knew who it, it is Matt Smith.

[00:07:26] I, I actually think that David Tennant is a better who, but Matt Smith is my favorite. He is what I come to for doctor who in so many ways. Very nice. Agreed. Alicia. I, we, we've done this many times so we can keep ours short, but you want to just remind people your who story. Oh, um, yeah. Yeah. So I, I mean, I picked it up at some point during David Tennant's run and then I've only,

[00:07:54] I have barely watched anything from the old stuff. Like, but I've seen everything from two 2005 on, you know, from the new run. Um, Matt Smith is also my favorite, although I really like shoot it. Got what as who, but I, yeah, Matt Smith just not only has some of my favorite story arcs, but just like his persona and I'm a sucker for twinkly eyes, which I guess they both have. Um, yeah.

[00:08:23] And, uh, I, I really like the spinoffs. My favorite is actually probably Torchwood. Oh, it's incredible. Gone too soon. How do we not have more Torchwood? It was grown up Doctor Who. Exactly. Yes. I want more of that. I want more like grown up a little bit darker Doctor Who. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows what we're going to get at this point because they, they were doing this whole, like we're doing the Hooniverse now. And then Disney's like, it's not doing that well, but I don't know. We'll see. We'll see.

[00:08:52] We're not too sure if the main show is coming back. Well, we do have, right. We have that. Um, what is it of let that really unwieldy title of land and sea or whatever. Oh, but I mean, just call it unit. I don't know. I don't know. Exactly. Yeah. It is a land and sea or something like that. Yeah. Bizarre. What were you going to say, Alicia? I cut you off to make stupid jokes. I don't remember. It doesn't, it was clearly unimportant. There are no stupid jokes. Only stupid people. No, no, that's worse.

[00:09:22] No, I don't like that. But do you want to remind your who story? I, uh, I, I got into it like maybe a couple of years before the 50th anniversary. And then I like binged everything in new who the first new who, you know, cause I, why, why did we have to renumber that? I get why we had to renumber them. We have to onboard people, but whatever. I don't, I don't get it because you didn't renumber the doctor. You didn't renumber any, that's another, that's another rant. We can do another show. I think they've like given up maybe on doctor numbers at this point.

[00:09:52] Yeah. Because then there's like all these little wrinkles that are thrown into the story in recent years. Um, yeah. Yeah. Whoever the 15th is now may not be the 15th in the future cause they'll slip in. There were seven other doctors that you just never saw. Yeah. Yeah. Um, anyway, so I binged all that. Uh, I, I got back into it. I kind of fell off, you know, in the Capaldi era. And then I got back into it ahead of the 60th. These anniversaries really do keep me coming back.

[00:10:19] And, uh, I guess that's, that's the whole point is they're supposed to like hype it up. Especially when I heard David Tennant was coming back. I rewatched all of new who, and then I finally finished Capaldi and went through Whitaker. Uh, Capaldi was great almost all the way through Whitaker had moments. Uh, and, uh, yeah, there I am. It's not her fault. Yeah. Yeah. Not even close to her fault. She's incredible. And I think that the Capaldi and, um, which era will go down as dang it. They deserve better. Yeah.

[00:10:48] Capaldi, I think had some really, really great moments. Yeah. More, more so than winter. And I, and I'm talking strictly about the writing here. I think Capaldi just had better writing. I'm, I'm a total Clara defender too. Yeah. I have not understood the Clara hate. They don't like, I'm so out of the loop. I love her. I didn't even realize there was Clara. It's one of those. She got too mainstream and she was around too long. And so everybody was like, no, we don't like her anymore. I miss that.

[00:11:15] I miss characters that people said she was too bossy, but like, I don't know what's wrong with that. The doctor needs that. The doctor needs bossy. Yeah. And I, and I think, uh, even in this episode, you're like, are they doing that? Are there, are we getting back to that? Are we going to get a companion with a little bit more agency? And I think maybe. I hope so. Yeah. The groundwork is there. So why don't we get into the episode?

[00:11:41] Um, well, yeah, I mean, I thought it was, I thought it was, um, a good start to the season. I thought it was a clever way to get us to remember the companions, new name. So yeah, uh, spoilers now, but, um, I'm glad. So we last saw, um, what's her name? Virata Seth, Sethi, is that her name? Uh, anyway. Sethu. Sethu. Sorry. Yeah. We last saw her as a Mundi in.

[00:12:11] Yeah. Last season. And so I'm glad that they immediately addressed that. And like, that's the thing. And it's not like we're supposed to ignore that. It's the same person. Um, it was interesting to see. I felt like it was a very different character than that, or especially from Sinta, the character she plays in and or, which is going to be airing concurrently with this. Um, so it was cool to see her and then just, I don't know, it showing her from a different angle.

[00:12:38] Um, I'm not going to say this is one of the ones for the ages this episode, but I do think it would actually be a good first episode for someone to watch overall. If they had never seen anything, they did a bit of work onboarding. Like what's the basic doctor who lore to hearts, TARDIS bigger on the inside, you know, check, check, check. Um, yeah, I, uh, we got our first tier of the season. That's just the one. The one thing he's the crying doctor. Yeah.

[00:13:08] He's the doctor who cries. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and, and of course they were trying to trigger me personally first with the cat, these apt and then also girls aren't good at maths. So it was, it was designed to trigger me in particular. It was, um, an interesting take. I've been seeing a lot of stuff recently. Like I watched adolescence that Netflix show. Everyone's buzzing about. Uh, I was just watching this movie that came out this year, the beast. And there's a lot of.

[00:13:35] Um, storytelling around what is particularly. Pejority pejoratively called incels. And this fit into that. So it was interesting to think about it in conversation with this other stuff, uh, commentary on it. And of course this is usual is like the lightest, most superficial commentary on it. So not that it always isn't doctor who, but this was not a particularly deep episode. I don't think just a fun one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:04] Uh, yeah, I'm kind of echo all of that. Uh, the, one of the great things about doctor who that allows it to continue to exist. Um, like Alicia said is that there are these onboarding points and you can either have them when you get a new doctor or equally when you have a new companion. And this is a, this is a really, really strong introduction. Um, to, I don't know if we, do we say companion anymore? Is it assistant? Is it partner? It was my, my old doctor who brain will always be companion.

[00:14:33] Um, I think it's still companion, but I, I think, uh, what did, what did, uh, Belinda say in this episode? She was like, I'm not going to be, Oh, no, I'm not going to be one of your adventures. I thought she was going to say I'm not going to be one of your companions. This is a great introduction to one of the doctor's adventures. Yeah. Which I know she will be. Uh, but no, I, it's, it's a really, really strong introduction to her. Um, I think it's smart to not have this be some huge villain that we know of.

[00:15:00] And I think having the, the more wishy washy, pop corny plot line allows us to focus in on this new character rather than something really, really exciting happening. So it sounds like a backhanded compliment, but the fact that the storyline was rather basic and the bad guys weren't, were pretty forgettable helps me to focus on what's important in this episode, which is the introduction of this new companion. Um, but I, having said that it still kind of gave me everything I wanted from doctor who,

[00:15:30] which was some timey wimey wibbly wobbliness, uh, an over explained paradox, um, that is just literally spelled out to us and said, did you get it? Did you get how the time travel works in this episode? Isn't it clever? Um, we got all of that. We got some nice glory shots of the TARDIS. I am a sucker, even though it doesn't make sense for the TARDIS flying. It's going through space as if it's the enterprise. It dematerializes and it reappears. It doesn't ever need to fly.

[00:15:58] That's, that's not a thing it ever needs to do, but I love it. I still love it. It does it because it can. Give it some lasers. Because it's fun. Because it's fun and I'm here for it. Um, yeah. Uh, shoot. He got some great, like he has taken to the role of doctor who probably quicker than anybody I can remember. But like we all, we, there have been every doctor who for me has been great, but he has taken to it immediately. He inhabits the doctor so quickly.

[00:16:28] And I was so comfortable watching him. So yeah, it's a very safe episode. I think you're right. It's not going to go down in the ages as one of the ones you really remember, but I think it takes all of the boxes. We need it to take as a, uh, as a welcome back to season two slash 15 slash 75 of doctor. Yeah, I think that's all right. I, I actually wasn't even thinking about its onboard ability when I was watching it.

[00:16:57] I probably because I don't need to be onboarded. I've been following this now for a couple of years back, but I, I, I think you're right. I would definitely rate this above Rose as an onboarding point. Like I think Rose is actually a real rough episode when you, when you rewatch it. Sacrilege. I'm like, man, that is those, those plastic guys. They are not looking good. Um, classics. Rubber Mickey.

[00:17:23] It's I think it's like the only episode from his season that I, from Eccleston season that I really remember. You don't at the time, the, the empty child. That's sure. Okay. True, true, true, true. The doctor dances. No one dies today. Iconic. I, I, everybody lives just this once. Everybody lives. Yes. Oh my gosh. Shivers more, more Eccleston, please. You know, he's, he's back on the audio drama.

[00:17:51] So he wouldn't do them for years, but he's doing them now. It's the gateway drug to get back into who I'm hoping. That's right. That's right. I think, but didn't he say recently, he's like everyone in production would have to quit. And then I'd come back and you're like, well, that's not really fair for everybody. Is it? It could, what did the second grip, how did they specifically annoy you during your time? Oh my God.

[00:18:15] So yeah, I, I thought it was, it was a good doc rate episode, but a lot of fun, a lot of fun. Uh, there was some like over explaining of the metaphor. I thought like you can over explain the, uh, the techno babble to me and whatnot. And I think that's fun. Sometimes I'm a little like, all right, I didn't need someone to come in and say planet of the incels. That much was clear. Yeah. That much was clear. We got it. At the same time, we got it. I, I might be like, we're socially conscious people.

[00:18:43] And maybe there are people who need that spelled out for them. And that's okay. Especially cause this is a family show and, and kids are going to watch this. And maybe like, what message do you want the kids to take from this? I would argue that it works even better for kids, adults, everyone alike. If you don't explain it, there are episodes of that, like that you can, you can rewatch and find the extra meaning in them. And I, it just, it always ends up for me.

[00:19:09] And this happened with, um, the specials that, um, um, Russell T Davies did with, with, uh, tenant Christmas last year. The over explaining of what the social justice message. Yeah. Ends up stepping on the point for me and ends up getting a bit eye rolly. Whereas like, I got it and I appreciate it. And this is important. Like put it on TV, but you can do what Shakespeare did and set it in Vienna, even though you're talking about the monarchy in England.

[00:19:37] So I think it's more powerful when you don't have a character say planet of the incels. It's certainly more effective on me, but like at the same time that I see people react to wicked and be like, I didn't really understand what the animal plot was for. And you're like, okay, maybe you do need it spelled out for you. But what do you think the message is in this episode?

[00:19:59] It's don't be an incel or you will wind up suffering and only able to speak every ninth word. True. Well, this is where I feel like the message gets muddled because I'm not entirely sure it knows where to land other than look how terrible this type of human is. Bad things happen to you.

[00:20:19] I don't think it hits that point of giving an alternate way that you can handle these situations, how you can deal with these. The resolution, we don't do spoilers, do we? We're good on spoilers right now. Okay. For this episode. Okay. The doctor, the doctor laughs at him dying. Like the guy gets microscopic and he's killed by the Zumba Roomba robot. And the doctor laughs.

[00:20:49] That was chilling. That did not sit right with me. No matter like how terrible this individual is, how like deplorable their actions are and how they've treated. Um, uh, oh no, ironically, I've forgotten her name. Uh, Belinda. Belinda. Miss Belinda Tosh. Yeah. That's Miss Belinda Tosh to you. Yeah. My bad. Sorry. Are you married? Oh my gosh. You know what I thought they were going to do? I thought they were going to have her like marry the doctor quickly so that she was Mrs. And then she wouldn't be roped into this.

[00:21:19] That would not be, yeah, that would not be beyond the realm of Doctor Who at all. I know. That's what I'm saying. Married and returned. Yeah. Oh, the river song fanatics would rise up. Oh, of course. You can't get married more than once. Who knows what time lord law is though on that. Exactly. But yeah. That's one for each. That's it right with me. So, a lot to talk about here. Why don't we get right into it after a break?

[00:22:03] And we're back. So, I've broken this out into sort of five or six big arcs. We start off with a guiding star. Belinda Chandra receives a gift from her childhood boyfriend, Alan. A diploma from the star register declaring the star, Miss Belinda Chandra. 17 years later in 2025, Belinda gets off her shift as a hospital nurse and is awoken from her sleep by a robot abduction. She is to be queen of Miss Belinda Chandra 1.

[00:22:32] That's going to, oh man, that is a mouthful. So, here's the question though. If that's one, are there more? That's a good question. That's a good question. Well, if we're following like the Star Trek convention of naming planets, they kind of like name each planet. So, maybe each planet in the solar system is one, two, three, four, five. I think we can use that in real life too. I don't think that's just Star Trek. No, it's just Star Trek, okay? Star Trek.

[00:23:02] They went back in time and invented the rules, okay? That's right. That hasn't happened yet. You know, it is funny though, like science fiction can come into real life. Like the Silurians, that was created for Doctor Who and has now become a real scientific theory named after the Doctor Who creature. That's incredible. That's so good. So, who knows? Who knows what happened with the naming of planets? Yeah.

[00:23:30] So, you have in the notes here and we have to discuss that Mrs. Flood randomly showed up. We last saw her as Ruby's next door neighbor and now she is Miss Belinda Chandra's next door neighbor. Mm-hmm. And she says, shh, you didn't see anything and hid from the Doctor.

[00:23:48] How do you guys feel about the third wall breakingness of, I mean, it happened a couple of times last season with Mrs. Flood and with the Doctor himself referencing the score of the episode that he was in. Like, how did the third wall breaking stuff hit you guys? I think it's fine. I think it's fine. I think it's fine. Especially with Mrs. Flood.

[00:24:13] See, the last season we had this whole, I forgot what the category of being was, but this whole idea of like these different beings that are like the, do you remember Alicia what they're called? Yeah, what did, oh man. Was it the master and the maestro and. Yeah, all these like creative beings, right? Uh, the, the. Was one of them. Yeah. Yeah. And the toy maker. So, so people were theorizing last season.

[00:24:41] Is she the writer, the storyteller, something like that? Mm-hmm. And that's why she's able to like break the fourth wall. The pantheon. The pantheon. Thank you. And, and I, I am kind of here for that. I hope that we continue down this pantheon and that's not just gone now because. Mm-hmm. The, we've feeded the big bad that season. I hope that that maybe they're all free now. Right. Because we've feeded the big bad. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I think with Mrs.

[00:25:10] Flood in particular, it's clear that they are setting. That's part of her story. That's something that they've been like doing a slow burn with her setting her up. So I'm eager, eager to see where it goes. And, uh, if it's something like that, like she is the storyteller or something. Yeah. That sounds satisfying. And she went like unhinged in the finale of last season. Oh my gosh. Yeah. She was like speaking doomsday. So she knows something. But then she did blow away with the humans.

[00:25:41] You know, she, she turned to dust. That's true. But I think, I think all of the other ones would have too. I think that's very possible. I think the toy maker and like everything would have turned to dust. Mm-hmm. I have a, um, wild, uh, classic who theory that she is the watcher. Do you know who the watcher is? No, I don't.

[00:26:07] So the watcher is a, um, a being that guides a time Lord, um, as they reach the end of their life and ease their regeneration. So it could be an expanse. Cause I mean, RTD. But shoot, he just started. I know. Well, I mean, from one point of view, he just started, but maybe he regenerates very close to the point where he started.

[00:26:31] But RTD is classic for pulling out obscure things from the history of who he really, really loves to do these callbacks. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted to expand on one of these, um, one of these older, older who law things that only appeared in one episode and could do with a bit more backstory. That's my wild fan theory. No fair. Yeah. Sue tech came for last season.

[00:26:58] Like, I don't think that we are, we are above pulling from classic who. And I think it's cool when they can bring back things from classic who. Yeah. I do like though, in particular about this episode and when doctor who does it is where it starts with this really silly premise. Like, okay, how many of us have purchased a star or something like that, you know, for someone and how, you know, of course you have to think like, oh, um, if I really owned

[00:27:27] that star, what does that mean? Blah, blah, blah. Um, and have this, you can just imagine the writers having this fantasy and then they're like, uh, I would have been happy in doctor who terms. If that was just it, if it was just like, oh, because it's on record, it belongs to her, but no, they actually made it this whole time loop element where there is a reason why, you know, there is a miss Belinda Chandra star, but there's not like a miss Alicia Brenner star. Yeah, exactly.

[00:27:57] Cause there are probably as many of those given out as there are visible stars in the sky. Right. Who gets precedent? Is it just the first one? So I love that it was, yeah, I agree. I agree. I love that it was more than just, here's this thing that's popular in the world. Let's do something funny with it. They gave it more depth and really wove it into the story. And anytime you bend time travel and bend causality, I'm, I'm with you. I love that.

[00:28:24] I don't care about bootstrap paradoxes, not making sense. It's just, it's fun to me. Right. There, there's a line that always rings in my head from Matt Smith. Somebody goes, but the paradoxes and he goes, we'll largely work themselves out. That always gets me. Every now and then this like comes up and the doctor had waves it away. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. It's just the doctor whispering to the audience. It's okay. Don't worry. Go with it guys.

[00:28:53] Go with it. All right. Enter the doctor. The doctor having been tracked Belinda to miss Belinda trying to one and arriving there six months earlier, thanks to the ship works his way up the chain to become the planet's historian. Belinda learns she is to become a queen by physically marrying the great AI and merging into this AI. The doctor uses the flaw in the robots that they can't understand every ninth word to get

[00:29:21] a secret message to Belinda, allowing them to escape with the rebels. What do you, what do you all think of this gambit of like the, the, every ninth word? I don't think this makes sense at all on like language. Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess it was supposed to be the amount of time, like there was like a processing glitch where it took a second to process and that's why it missed a word ever after every eight words. But, um, But why would it always land on your eighth word? Yeah, I know.

[00:29:51] But I, I just also found it a semi annoying gimmick that I'm glad doesn't, I don't want to see that last past an episode. Yeah. It's definitely in service of what it needs to be in service of. I think I caught something towards the end of the episode where, um, I think the doctor said something. If you end up like him, only every ninth word will matter or something like that.

[00:30:17] So I think the implication is that people like Al will talk and talk and talk and maybe one in every nine words will be needed. Whereas they just gaslight you and talk over you and use as many words as possible. I think I don't, I feel like I'm dumb and I've missed the message despite what you said earlier. Maybe it should be spelled out to us, but it definitely felt gimmicky and then shoehorned into the incel thing. Yeah.

[00:30:43] I mean, I thought it was maybe like meant less literally than they were saying it just in the way that guys like this say all these things, but in between the things that they're saying to make themselves look cool or to fit in or to fit whatever archetype they're going for, uh, you'll catch glimpses of what they really think and feel and the cries for help. But maybe I was reading too much into it. No, I think that's fair. I think I would buy into that. Yeah, I think you're right.

[00:31:14] And, and just this overall thing of like, you're oppressing people so much that like, this is a thing of when you control people so much, you start missing details, right? Because, because you can't possibly monitor everyone all the time. And this is how, you know, totalitarian regimes fall in the real world is like every ninth word or so is, is just going to slip through and enough will slip through where things start to crumble. And yet they still try. They sure do. They sure do. They sure do.

[00:31:42] We're not referring to anything in the real world. No, for the record. The shwoop is next. Let's go to the shwoop, which by the way, I love. And that's, that's part of Dr. Who Lord now, the shwoop. Yes. Oh, it will be. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Keep that around. That's up there with timey-wimey. I wonder how that affects Mavity. That is the, the most genius bit of writing from new, new, new, new, new, new, new, who. I love it so much. And I love that it keeps coming back. Mm-hmm.

[00:32:11] So Belinda meets the rebels who mourn the loss of Sasha 55. The doctor recounts the 10 years since the robots became, became Miss Belinda. I can't talk. I can't say this whole thing. Miss Belinda Trondra's kind overlords. Uh, the robots found Belinda's star diploma in the future and followed it to May 24th, 2025. When the diplomas got near each other again, it triggered a time shwoop. Mm-hmm.

[00:32:41] We, we went to bet a 24. And I, and I think what we learned by the end is it wasn't just the proximity of the diplomas, right? It was the fact that she called out for Alan. Well, I mean, cause they said about them touching the same space, right? Yeah. But, but I mean, what caused the, the shwoop itself, I feel like that was her calling for Alan and then changing the past while traveling. No, I took it as like that started the robot. Cause she did that. Yeah. Rebellion. Yeah.

[00:33:10] But I think the shwoop was caused by the contracts. Um, the contracts. All right. Yeah. The diploma's touching. All right. I'm with you. So two things. First, when I see this written down, Miss Belinda Chandra Kind is what I see here in my head, because it's, uh, it's in German or Dutch. It would be child. So I just think of them as like little children of Miss Belinda Chandra. Anyway.

[00:33:33] Um, did either of you think there's that guy, Manny, who kind of looks like a, like a sexy grownup version of her high school boyfriend. Did either of you think that they were setting up some kind of romance there and then just nothing? Or they just were like, here's some eye candy. You're welcome. I think that is a fitting and damning indictment of how we've been desensitized or overly sensitized to romance in things.

[00:34:01] Like any kind of glance, like, cause I felt exactly the same. I was like, Oh, sexual tension. And I thought, hang on. No, they just looked at each other. But that's, we can't help it. Like we always see that on screen, especially with like the steamy look at my bicep person. Um, and, and the, and anyone else on screen, to be honest. So yeah, I was picking it up as well, but I don't know that it was intentional.

[00:34:26] Or maybe it was something that they cut out because it almost seemed like they were setting up an enemies to lovers thing, but maybe there just wasn't room for it in the episode in the end. Or maybe they thought like it was better for her to reject her ex, not for another guy, but just. Yeah. Talk about mixed messages if you want to do that. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's smart to make it a relatively sexless episode. Yeah, definitely.

[00:34:50] You know, the doctor does say he went for Belinda because he told me about you, right? Like he, and you're like, who, who was he? Mm hmm. I'm, I'm very confused. I think that's an open mystery of who told the doctor about Belinda. I was worried I'd missed something or couldn't remember something from last season. No, I think, I think that's just open mystery. Okay. Maybe it's another version of the doctor. We already had that like time loop of the Christmas special. Yes.

[00:35:18] Where the, the older ones like sit in your stupid chair for a year. Mm hmm. Yeah. It surprised me too. And, and I will say the humor was pretty on point in this, in this part with the whole timey, why me? Am I six? Like just making fun of the whovians who walk around life going timey, why me? Like we're all just bumbling around yelling memes. Yeah. And, uh, then we get to the great owl as we learn is his actual AI. I can't believe first of all. Okay.

[00:35:47] I can't believe that nobody looked over the edge of that machine to see the bottom of the L. Like it's the one thing it's, if it's a lowercase L, but can you get close enough to it before now? Hmm. Like he just came in, right? Like he, before that it was just like, I think he just talked to the robots. Yeah. Maybe I won't keep mentioning star Trek, but this is definitely a plot line that's featured in a star Trek movie.

[00:36:13] Um, so I couldn't help but think of the motion picture because there's a, there's an alien that is called Vija. And they realize at the end that it's Voyager, a pro smudged out. So I see what you did there, Russell. That's funny. So Belinda offers herself to the robots to save the rest of Miss Belinda Chandra kind before she can do it.

[00:36:38] She realizes that the AI is actually Al, her boyfriend who gave her the star certificate. When she told the robots to get him, they went back 10 years and brought him to rule over Miss Belinda Chandra kind, uh, where he treated it like a video game and oppressed the people. Belinda touches her diploma to the one held by Alan and the swoop gets so powerful. It turns Alan into gametes. Doctor, the doctor pulls Belinda out to save her. Okay.

[00:37:07] Can I tell you my biggest complaint in the episode is when, what is up with Belinda's plan to get herself turned in? She turns back on the cute little sweep up robot. Um, but then she lures the robots to back to the base. Like if you want to turn yourself in, just go over there and turn yourself in. Why are you blowing up everybody's safe spot? Yeah. How about you don't do something that alienates literally everybody that could like, fine.

[00:37:36] If you've destined to, to end your own life, to save this plan, like this is, yeah, you're right. It's a terrible way to do it. It's so risky. Yeah. She holds everyone's head. She like grabs everyone's hand and goes, we are all surrendering. Like, huh? Huh? She's like, I'm taking everyone with me. Oh my God. And she didn't know it was her ex-boyfriend that, you know, yeah. Anyway. But I did like in, you were talking about the humor.

[00:38:01] I liked when she looked at her, at her ex-boyfriend in the machine, who's now like half a silver skeleton. And she's like, Alan, are you all right? Are you all right in there? I don't think he's okay. No, I don't think he's okay in any sense of the word. I will say, I love the prosthetics in this episode.

[00:38:23] Like the robots didn't do much for me, but I wanted like close ups on Alan because whatever they did to him was incredibly detailed and just really, really impressive. I don't know. I wasn't able to watch it on a huge screen, but it looked like way more effort than we usually get from, from a throwaway episode of Dr. That's the Disney money. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's the mouse. Um, yeah.

[00:38:50] Can I, can I ask you, are you sad that we didn't get the Cybermen as the robots or something? No. I'm so glad you mentioned this. It's hard to not think of Cybermen, the entire episode. You've got Conversion, which is a new thing for Cybermen, but the voices sound like Cybermen.

[00:39:10] And I'm glad it wasn't Cybermen because like we said at the top of the show, I think that would have detracted hugely from introducing Belinda, who should be the focal point. But just don't use the robot. Don't use the Cyberman voice. Don't use Conversion. Yeah. Okay. Don't have so many flags in there that make me wish for Cybermen when I don't need this to be Cybermen. I don't, I don't need it. It was fine. Just as it is. Just do something else. Did Bill die for nothing? Right.

[00:39:40] I mean, yes. Okay. Can I talk about the Cybermen thing for a moment? Um, first of all, I feel like the Cybermen are overused. That's a personal opinion I have. So I was glad it wasn't them, but you know what robots these actually reminded me of? Remember, what was the one, um, with the, with the robots, with the emoji faces? Oh, wasn't that from last season? Mm hmm. And yeah, but they were much smaller, but yeah. Very similar. Also had like the emoji faces and a similar design. Yeah. Oh yeah. Very similar. Yeah.

[00:40:10] That would have been easy. What's this new RTD thing? Maybe they'll connect. I mean, that would be cool if we have these like connected AI things. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think that'd be fun. Oh, can I ask you guys, uh, what did you think about the fact that, um, they shoehorned in this backstory for six months where the doctor made this friend who is going to be his new companion and then she died and then he's mourning at the end? It's, it's, it's cheap.

[00:40:37] It's really cheap because she had to scream out that you promised doctor, we do the rescue thing and then the stars. And I'm like, oh, you're so dead. Yeah. Oh no. I, I couldn't believe it was literally two seconds after that though. I thought like, oh, you're dying this episode, but oh no, right now. Okay. Yeah. They could have, they could have dragged it out a little more, especially like I think of the, um, you know, there's plenty of Christmas specials where there's a single episode companion and sometimes they died. Like look at the Titanic one with tenant.

[00:41:06] I think that's a great example. And like, you honestly, you're like, I wish they could come with them. Like this seemed like good chemistry and all that. Yeah. Um, I, they didn't develop the chemistry with us when I, I agree with you. It was cheap because they didn't earn it. Well, and that it, she purely exists so that Belinda can say, you promises to that lady when they're in the TARDIS and I'm not going to end up like that. I'm not, I'm not her. So I don't even think she was there for an emotional punch.

[00:41:31] I think she's there as an example for Belinda to use, which is somehow even cheaper. Yeah. It was definitely plot serving, right? Like, like serving the writer, not the characters. Right. She's like the anti fridge. She's like, she dies to demotivates a character. Yes, exactly. That's amazing. Any other thoughts on, on Mr. Gammy before we move on?

[00:42:01] Are we sad for him? I don't know. I don't know. I'm still reeling from the fact that the doctor's laughing over his dead body. Like, it felt really, really icky. That's where it felt more like the writers saying, yeah, he got what he deserved. And even in real life, that's not okay. Yeah. This was, Alicia, I'm thinking of, this is going to come out after that Wheel of Time episode.

[00:42:27] So we could say like, there's a moment in episode seven of the Wheel of Time where like a character like, is like laughing because another character is dying. Right. And we were rooting for that character to laugh because the other character was so evil. Yeah. Well, but I, I did say in our recording of, of that episode, it's episode seven of the Wheel of Time. I did say, um, that I was like, I can't believe she laughed. Yeah. I, I should have said I was rooting for that character. I'll be, I'll be the sicko with this.

[00:42:57] That can absolutely be true, but it is, it's fundamentally against what the doctor has always stood for. Like the doctor has stood literally with a gun to the head of Davros and tortured himself over whether it's okay to take a life and takes a step back and doesn't do it. And just because of a vacuum cleaner did it, that's okay to laugh. It just, it didn't sit right.

[00:43:22] And I kind of, I want an explanation for what I'm missing in that moment that made it okay to laugh at what was, I think they just said, oh no, it's a, it's a sperm cell. Yeah. It's being hoovered up. Is that why it's okay? Because you're talking about a single cell and not actually Alan. I didn't, it didn't connect. But then they also like, you know, they took pains to show us that he was in pain, um, that he hated what he had done to himself. Yeah. So I don't know.

[00:43:52] So we were supposed to root for his sweet release. What's weird than being some gametes. Yeah. Weird. Weird is better the episode for me. But I will say this is not the first time we've seen the doctor be callous. I mean, the time Lord victorious era. I always think of that like chilling con chilling conduct from David Tennant's doctor. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:44:15] I think back, I mean, even his opening episode of, of series two, he, he just pulls the lever and, and drops that alien right down to earth. Then he goes, no second chances. That's the kind of man I am. You're like, damn, damn. Yeah. Do we think we're going to get, um, Jonathan Groff back this episode? No, I want him. I want him back. Yeah. I hope so. I don't know why you wouldn't. It was such a highlight of last season.

[00:44:45] Um, and I really love that doctor who is finally at a point where, whether it's Disney money or increasing renown, we're getting these incredible actors that want to show up one episode to play in the sandbox and do something. So I w I would love a return. Absolutely. And can I shout out quickly? Jonathan Groff is in a new movie right now called a nice Indian boy.

[00:45:10] If you like rom-coms, this is one of the best run car rom-coms I've seen in a while. So everyone should go watch it. I would love for this movie to do well. Oh, that's awesome. Well, there's no place like home and the doctor and Belinda unite the robots and miss Belandra Chandran's. You're doing it. And get into the TARDIS. Uh, Belinda asks to go home. Wow. My New York just came out right there.

[00:45:39] Belinda asks Belinda asks to go home and denies the doctor's charming attempt to recruit her as a companion by enticing her with the mystery of Monday Flynn. Mm hmm. The doctor discovers there is something between earth and miss Belinda Chandra one. Oh my God. Miss Belinda Chandra one. That is keeping them from going back to May 24th, 2025 and tells Belinda he's taking her the long way around.

[00:46:04] But then we also see all that earth debris, like bits of the Eiffel Tower and the Statue of Liberty and stuff. Yeah. They pull together because the Statue of Liberty knows that she was originally French. Yes, that's what it is. And the London cab just is there because it wants to laugh at us. It's in between. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm wondering, did the doctor not see that?

[00:46:33] Does he not see the debris or did it just turn up at warp speed after they left? Did he not? I guess he didn't see it. Yeah, it didn't seem like it. Because he's not saying the earth isn't there. It's just that they're being stopped halfway between. So yeah, he's missed a trick there. Well, I think I almost called her Monday, but I think Belinda is going to be around for a long time now. And that's going to be fun because I think she's going to make a great companion. I love these resistant companions that like slowly come around.

[00:47:03] I think it feels almost more earned, right? Yeah. Sort of rose with the 10th doctor. Yeah. I hope she doesn't resist too long. You know, I'm like embrace the call to adventure. Let's go. Mm-hmm. No, I'm, yeah, I'm right there in between. A bit of resistance is understandable when you're being plucked out of your, the middle of your life. Time machine or not. Like it doesn't matter what you say to me. Like I'm going to take some consideration before I go on this adventure.

[00:47:32] So yeah, it wouldn't be the first time the doctor. So what was interesting is that I wondered if they were going to bring back this trait that the doctor has, which way back in the day was kind of being a bit sneaky and a bit cheeky. So he would disable something on the TARDIS and say, oh, I can't take you home because it's broken. And then the companion would eventually find out you broke it on purpose to keep me, didn't you? Yeah. But didn't you have a good time? I wondered if they might.

[00:48:00] That's a bit more problematic in modern TV, but I wondered if they might take that cheeky element with, with shoot his doctor and he might try and disable something. Maybe he's behind why they can't go back to earth. I don't really think that's what it is. You're absolutely right. I can picture Hartnell now, unscrewing the like flux capacitor, whatever it was, right? Yeah. Something in there and you're like, oh, that's, that's not great. Yeah. John Pertwee literally did that with, I think it was with Sarah Jane.

[00:48:30] Yeah. He disabled something and she's so mad for about two and a half seconds. Well, do you want to bring in some listener feedback? Yeah. Yeah. We have an email from, oh, it's, it's for you, John. Oh, come on. I already can't say Miss Belinda Chandra kind. And now you're going to make me read one of Jordan's Quebecois emails. Jordan, Ian, you've, you've not been here long enough to know Jordan.

[00:48:58] Jordan is from, from Quebec and likes to write in with Quebecois that I can't pronounce. I think you did a great job. And the English person has no idea how that should be pronounced. Yeah. I can't tell you how much I lit up when I saw your Dr. Who cast post forcing my total francophone in-laws to watch the Christmas special. They were completely lost. Ha ha ha. Totally agree. By the way, it's better on Christmas.

[00:49:27] This is, by the way, this, this was written clearly after the Christmas special and we haven't done any who podcasts since then. For me, it was a typical Moffat episode, which I scale as around, usually around a B average. Absolutely love the time hotel and hope that it is recurring. It was also a great episode in a companion sense. And on that note, I'm kind of hoping for a male companion to keep up the fun flirting that Shooty's doctor is so good at.

[00:49:56] Bring back Jonathan Groff. I agree. I agree. Overall, as John mentioned, it was slightly too face pack full pack for non who beings, but meh, that just makes it a treat for us. I must also admit that Moffat got me good emotionally at the end. During the pandemic, my hospital floor bought two iPads so we could help FaceTime patients with families who couldn't visit them as often.

[00:50:23] And often it was indeed their last messages together. It really struck a chord with me when I saw that scene and I was weeping to the point that my in-laws were concerned. But as sometimes happens at these seemingly hopeless moments, good old joy swung in with such undying hope. Je vais pleurer. Je vais pleurer. Encore desol. Desolée. It's something. It's something. Haha, sigh.

[00:50:52] But it was just really beautifully portrayed. All that to say for me, though a bit wobbly, it fits in well that Doctor Who in that Doctor Who wheelhouse of Tommy Wimey nonsense whilst managing to touch upon deep human emotions. Alas, thought I'd write in to tell you wonderful humans as it was joyful puns to listen to your Who coverage yet again. Hanukkah Sameach et Joye Noël.

[00:51:22] Okay. Wishing you both all the best during the holidays and cheers to a fabulous New Year's. Thanks, Jordan. Thanks, Jordan. Well, that was beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Yes. Yeah. And that definitely, that touched, that hospital scene definitely, I'm sure, touched a point for a lot of people, especially in medical care. My mom was having cancer surgery in December 2020. So yeah. Oh wow. I definitely, definitely felt that hospital scene.

[00:51:49] I was lucky to be at a point where we could see her in person more than in the early days of the pandemic. Hmm. But yeah, boy, it was at a scary time for a lot of people. Yeah. And yeah, thank you for sharing all that, Jordan. And sorry we didn't get to your email earlier. We haven't, we haven't been in the Hooniverse since. You blame Disney. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. For not putting out constant episodes. Mm-hmm. That's right. That's right. We should get 52 episodes a year. Yeah.

[00:52:19] We should not for the sake of podcasting. We should not. No. Ian, any, any quick thoughts on the Christmas special since you weren't here with us? Uh, I, I don't want to yuck anybody's yum. Um, but I loved everything on paper about the episode. I did not like pretty much anything about the execution. Okay. I'll just leave it there. All right. Fair enough. I think Alicia and I were both, uh, I think I was more mixed than you, Alicia. I think you liked it more than I did, but I, I did like it. Mm-hmm.

[00:52:49] Yeah. I liked, I liked his year spent in the hotel in his chair, friend that, that whole thing really touched me actually. And I cried a bit. Yeah. Well, though I did point out that like, there's been so many times where the doctor has been stuck on earth and. Right. I know. Had to stay for a while. Like the third doctor is literally stuck for years on earth. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then you have the 12th doctor staying for decades to teach. But did he have a chair friend? Ah. Yeah. That's a fair, fair point. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:19] Yeah. I think you're right. All right. Well, everyone, that was our first episode of new, new who Ian. I don't know. Would you be back for all or some of this? What are we getting? Good scheduling allowing. Um, I would love to come back for as much as I possibly can. Um, yeah, we're it's people keep putting out a lot of content and all of this content requires podcasting. So yeah, if we can get the, the stars to align with their, um, respective certificates, then yes, I will return.

[00:53:48] We need more swoops in the air to get this done. Well, it is helpful that Disney gave us a screener. So that's a nice, helpful, helpful swoop. Yes, absolutely. That's right. Thank you, Disney. Everyone, you know, we're recording these ahead of time. So I'll just say we're, we're doing and, or we're doing the last of us.

[00:54:09] We're, we're finishing up wheel of time, uh, at the, at the time you're listening to this first episode, which I think is coming out on the 12th and, uh, check out our affiliates, radioactive ramblings. Nevermind the music properly. Howard movie review. We'll shift dust for more Alicia and, uh, rings and rituals. If you want more podcasts on the network, find all that in the link tree. And Alicia, you want to give the quick thank yous? Sure. Okay. Thank you to, uh, first of all, our discord.

[00:54:39] Server boosters who help us keep all the bells and whistles and make it a fun place to hang out. Aaron K. Tiller, the thriller, dork of the ninjas, doob 71, Athena, Adjalea, Tina, let's do Nancy M ghost to partition and radioactive Richard. Thank you to all of our Laura hounds who have joined our super cast and patron. Thank you. Most of all, to our highest tier of subscribers, our lore masters, some Martian, Michael G, Michelle E, Brian P, SC, Peter, O H, Bettina, W Adam S, Nancy M, doob 71,

[00:55:09] Brian, Brian, 80, 63, Frederick H, Sarah L, Gareth C, Matthew M, Sarah M, DJ Miwa, Andra B, Kwong Yu, dead eye, Jedi Bob, Nathan T, Alex V, Subzero, Aaron K, Dally V, Mothership 61, Narls, Kathy W, Lestu, Jeffrey B, Elisa U, Neil F, Ben B, Scott F, Steven N, Julia F, Collie S, Ilmariel, new member, forward slash Tim, and always last.atran.

[00:55:38] All right, everyone. Thanks for listening. Thanks, Ian, for being here. Go check out Captain's Pod. Yes. Thank you for having me. And we'll see you either after episode two or three. We haven't decided yet, so stay tuned. It'll be timey-wimey. The Lorehounds Podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds Podcasts at patreon.com slash thelorehounds.

[00:56:04] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening. Lord Vader, Operation Andor is underway. Excellent. If we release three episodes per week, the Lorehounds will never be able to cover every episode. The Imperial forces will crush the Rebellion before it begins. Standby. We're picking up something on our scanners. Echo Squadron reporting in. Delta Squadron on your left. Jango Squadron on your six.

[00:56:34] With Imperial forces coming in fast, we're calling all Rebels to join the fight this season. Starting after the April 22nd premiere, you'll hear three full breakdowns for each week's episodes of Andor Season 2. Each podcast will be led by one of our squadron leaders, Alicia, David, and John. We'll be bringing in new and familiar voices to fill out the roster. Search for The Lorehounds on any podcast platform to join us in a galaxy far, far away. And don't forget to check out our season pass for even more content like our Holocron bonus pods.

[00:57:04] It's good news for anyone except Darth Vader.