House of the Dragon - S02E06 Feedback - Smallfolk

[00:00:20] Welcome to the House of the Hounds, we are the Lorehounds, your guides to the Dance of the Dragons. I'm John.

[00:00:26] And I'm Alicia, and this is our feedback episode for HBO's original series, House of the Dragons, Season 2, Episode 6, titled Smallfolk.

[00:00:36] Alicia, we have a lovely document ahead of us, put together by Hand of the Pot Nancy. We are always super grateful.

[00:00:44] Super grateful that Nancy is willing to put everything together. She's nicer than I am. Sometimes I cut out little one sentence discord messages, but for the most part, everything is intact.

[00:00:56] And especially if you sent in a substantive message, if you sent in an email, it is definitely in here. If you wrote like a substantive discord message, then, and Nancy put it in, then I have left it in because we are, we are all about the community feedback here.

[00:01:09] If you want to send in feedback, where can they do that, Alicia?

[00:01:13] Well, you can, you can tag us on the discord, but it's even better if you email it to, is it hotd at thelorehounds.com for this one?

[00:01:23] It sure is.

[00:01:23] Yeah, that makes sense. And you can also leave a voicemail if you go to the website, thelorehounds.com slash contact, and there's a little tool there where you can just speak right into it, drop it to us, and we can put it in this episode.

[00:01:37] Very cool. And I know we have some voicemails tonight, so that'll be a lot of fun.

[00:01:41] Nice.

[00:01:43] All right. So, and anyway, if you want early and ad-free access to these podcasts, you can go to Supercast, you can go to Patreon, you can find those both in the link tree in the show notes, and they will bring you to sign up pages for House of the Dragon.

[00:01:54] You have an extra option. Instead of going recurring for $3, $5, or $10, by the way, $3 tier, you only have a few days left to claim that.

[00:02:03] You can get a season pass, which is $10, flat fee. You get all the House of the Dragon content for this season and last season. And that's the whole deal. You'll get the show guide, you will get early podcasts, and the bonus take on Sunday nights.

[00:02:19] It's, yeah, it was a really fun bonus take this week with your wife.

[00:02:23] Oh, yeah. She snuck onto the podcast.

[00:02:27] You guys have a good chemistry together. You should look into that.

[00:02:31] Yeah.

[00:02:33] Yeah, I'll find you a piece of paper that says we have good chemistry together. It's called my marriage certificate.

[00:02:40] All right. Let's get right into the feedback. Do you want to start off and we'll alternate?

[00:02:45] Sounds good. All right. Well, yeah, let's dive into rumors of a fourth season.

[00:02:50] Ooh. So Chris M says, hi team. Great coverage of this episode per usual. Originally, the plan was three seasons. My understanding is that they shortened the number of episodes in order to add another season.

[00:03:02] So instead of 10, 10, 10, the plan is 10, 8, 8, 10 now, I think. That gives them the freedom to draw this out a bit.

[00:03:09] It's good, in my opinion, but it does scramble where the mid-season and finale beat should be for each. At the pace they're moving, this feels like a four to five season story.

[00:03:23] Yeah. I mean, yeah, you, I guess we're both right on that front then, because you were saying you heard three and I was saying I heard four.

[00:03:30] I did hear originally when like the show was first starting that there was like, oh, wouldn't it be nice if his vibe? But I'm guessing that Zaslav was like, no.

[00:03:40] Which is interesting because they wanted more seasons of Game of Thrones, didn't they?

[00:03:45] Well, but that was a different time, a different, you know, CEO boss. That's when HBO was still HBO.

[00:03:52] All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. Anyway, I am glad to hear that they're going past three seasons because I think otherwise they do not have enough time.

[00:04:01] Yeah, no, exactly.

[00:04:04] All right. So next is the subject, has Damon's magical mystery tour of Harrenhal gone too long?

[00:04:11] Abby says.

[00:04:12] Yes.

[00:04:13] Yeah. The general consensus is yes. I'm just going to say that.

[00:04:17] I was so late watching the episode today. I have thoughts, not all charitable.

[00:04:22] It was, I was a huge show apologist among books readers so far, but by the end of the season, they may make it, they may make me into a book cloak yet.

[00:04:32] So the magical mystery tour of Harrenhal got another demon, demon out of the way.

[00:04:38] Yes, it was kind of predictable that he has to face his wrongdoings of Riva Seris.

[00:04:43] Can we move on now?

[00:04:46] It sounds like, oh, and Sadie and Davy Mack said similar as well.

[00:04:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:04:52] Yeah.

[00:04:53] This is where I go into summary mode.

[00:04:55] Yeah.

[00:04:57] Yeah. So I think that they should have, I loved having Patty Consonine back.

[00:05:03] I love having, oh man, Millie Alcock back.

[00:05:07] I think that they should have combined the two and like done this in half the time.

[00:05:13] Yeah. I mean, even, I think even if they put it in the same amount of time, but in one episode, it would have been pretty satisfying.

[00:05:20] Yeah. There could have been an episode largely dedicated to this plot.

[00:05:23] But I guess maybe the question for them is, and I'm trying to think about in book terms, I don't know.

[00:05:30] I was going to say like, what are they going to do with Damon?

[00:05:31] But they can do anything.

[00:05:32] They can invent him being up to anything they want while they're busy with the other people doing stuff.

[00:05:39] That's the luxury of this adaptation from, you know, quote unquote, second hand historical accounts.

[00:05:48] So I want to pull on a piece of feedback from later that I had originally not included.

[00:05:55] Maureen D said, the cynic in me thinks that the Damon stretched out arc was a way to keep Matt Smith in the cast when there wasn't enough storyline.

[00:06:01] Do you think that might have something to do with it?

[00:06:03] That is what I've been thinking. But I just, I see why, you know, the book doesn't give them much to work with between.

[00:06:10] I know where they're going next and I see how they're setting that up.

[00:06:14] But they could have done so much, you know, new different things, been less repetitive with this.

[00:06:21] Because I defended it at first. I love a witchy plot. I love like a lynchian hallucinatory situation on screen.

[00:06:28] And so they had me at first, but now this last week, they even lost me.

[00:06:33] Yeah, the execution's off on it. Like, it's a good idea with sloppy execution, I would say.

[00:06:39] It just went on too long.

[00:06:41] Yeah.

[00:06:42] Shall you read Denise?

[00:06:43] Oh, sorry. Yeah, Denise Dreamer also hopes the Harrenhal plot will advance next week.

[00:06:49] But it was fantastic to have Viserys back and Alice's vibes were on point as always.

[00:06:54] Yeah, agreed.

[00:06:55] The vibes are immaculate.

[00:06:58] Nate says,

[00:07:00] The demon, not demon, the demon scenes at Harrenhal, other than the first episode.

[00:07:05] That can't be an accident.

[00:07:06] Yeah, Freudian slip, right?

[00:07:08] Other than the first episode, he goes there and this one have dragged.

[00:07:12] I want to see progress on the black side, moving toward building power and getting an advantage.

[00:07:17] And Damon is spinning his wheels in that regard.

[00:07:19] I don't actually like Damon as a person or character, so putting him in limbo, in a limbo storyline, just makes me want to ignore him and focus on the people I care about.

[00:07:29] If the Harrenhal plot is set up for something later and is necessary, great.

[00:07:35] I'll recognize it then.

[00:07:37] But for now, while the individual scenes may be interesting, I love seeing Millie again.

[00:07:43] I haven't felt they added anything to what's going on.

[00:07:46] Tonight, it finally did.

[00:07:48] I was happy that Sir Simon mentioned Alice by name, so now we know she's not a figment of Damon's imagination.

[00:07:55] What do you think, Alicia?

[00:07:57] Yeah, I mean, I was glad that she was mentioned by name as well, so that people would stop thinking she was a figment of Damon's imagination.

[00:08:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:08:05] I mean, I was being a mischievous book cloak here, where I was just like, well, she hasn't been named by anybody else, and she disappeared in that one scene.

[00:08:17] Which, I still don't have an explanation for that, but, so maybe she's not real.

[00:08:22] Well, I think that they might have been seeding it that way on purpose, you know, to mess with people.

[00:08:29] Yeah.

[00:08:30] Just, yeah, because just the idea of her, and I do think that they've translated that well from the book, you know, in the book, there's an Alice Rivers, but we don't know, how old is she?

[00:08:41] You know, the rumors are crazy.

[00:08:43] Right, right, right.

[00:08:43] Is she a witch?

[00:08:43] Where is she from?

[00:08:44] You know.

[00:08:47] Yeah.

[00:08:48] You want to read Pawsin?

[00:08:50] Yes.

[00:08:52] Pawsin20 said on Discord, Damon finally realizes that he needs to get out of Harrenhal, and it must have been very difficult for him to ask Alice for help.

[00:08:59] And she delivers, with Grover Tully dead and Oscar being the new lord, meaning now Damon can get Riverrun on his side.

[00:09:06] We'll see, says Alicia.

[00:09:08] Paws says, yeah, he still has some explaining to do regarding his support for Blackwood war crimes, but with House Tully's support, it can be done.

[00:09:16] So, it seems Damon's dreams are finally going to be over.

[00:09:20] Yep.

[00:09:21] Yep.

[00:09:22] Maybe.

[00:09:22] I'm excited for Damon's dreams to be over.

[00:09:24] I really want to see him fight again.

[00:09:26] He's such a cool fighter.

[00:09:28] Yeah.

[00:09:29] Yeah, no, I'm ready also.

[00:09:31] I mean, I guess they use up a lot of the dragon budget on episode four, and that's fair.

[00:09:35] Yeah.

[00:09:36] But I'm ready to see Caraxes in action again.

[00:09:39] So, let's get a contrarian take.

[00:09:42] I mean, I'm not going to say contrarian, a contrary take.

[00:09:45] Rocky Zim says, I don't mind the Damon arc.

[00:09:48] It shows him facing his demons and coming to terms with who he is as a person.

[00:09:52] Yeah.

[00:09:52] Yeah.

[00:09:53] I agree with that.

[00:09:54] I just, I wish it was a little bit shorter.

[00:09:56] Yeah, and I just think they could have done that in half the time.

[00:09:59] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:01] Yeah.

[00:10:02] Lisa Redzippy says, I related to Damon crying when Simon Strong tells him they sent their

[00:10:09] healer Alice Rivers to help Lord Tully, and yet he died.

[00:10:12] To learn that she is a real person that others see at Harrenhal brings such relief to him.

[00:10:17] On top of it, her counsel to quote unquote wait three days time when the winds will shift

[00:10:22] is also a great relief to him.

[00:10:25] I too would be crying tears of pure relief.

[00:10:29] Yeah.

[00:10:30] Yeah.

[00:10:30] I mean, I think it was pent up from all of his Viserys thoughts, right?

[00:10:34] Like he is confronting his demons.

[00:10:36] At the same time, he's like, am I going crazy here?

[00:10:39] Yeah.

[00:10:40] It's just the question is to, I mean, obviously Alice is pushing him to confront his demons

[00:10:45] because she keeps calling him out on stuff directly.

[00:10:47] Right.

[00:10:49] But to what end?

[00:10:50] What is her goal with that?

[00:10:52] Yeah, I don't know.

[00:10:52] I think she wants him to be in a vulnerable place.

[00:10:56] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:57] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:57] And like you say, like what's the end game?

[00:11:00] Yeah.

[00:11:03] And Jean closes out our Damon at Harrenhal, the haunting of Harrenhal section saying,

[00:11:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:11:08] Alice is the only thing that interests me at Harrenhal.

[00:11:12] She exudes magic, and I want to know what that magic is and what she puts in those drinks.

[00:11:17] Yeah.

[00:11:19] Alice, make me a drink.

[00:11:22] Alice is the bartender for a good night out.

[00:11:25] Yeah.

[00:11:26] I mean, yeah, it does seem like something hallucinatory.

[00:11:31] Yeah.

[00:11:33] So the next section that Nancy put together is, thank the gods, some comic relief.

[00:11:37] Layer Cake wrote in.

[00:11:40] Do you want me to do it?

[00:11:41] Or are you?

[00:11:41] Oh, yes.

[00:11:42] I'm sorry.

[00:11:42] Okay.

[00:11:43] I'm not giving clear orders.

[00:11:44] I'm kind of like Rhaenyra.

[00:11:45] No, I'm kind of like Damon, actually.

[00:11:48] You know, giving orders to Blood and Cheese and to Willem Blackwood.

[00:11:54] And, okay.

[00:11:55] Layer Cake said,

[00:11:56] I like that Simon Strong's entire role on this show right now is to jostle Damon awake from his terrors and then get yelled at for things he didn't do.

[00:12:04] He just wants to hang out in his leaky castle and have some dinner, man.

[00:12:08] He didn't ask for all this.

[00:12:10] Cut Simon some slack, lol.

[00:12:11] We need an episode of an HGTV show where an upbeat host pops up unannounced to renovate Harrenhal and Simon has to give a tour explaining every structural problem in the castle.

[00:12:25] Yeah.

[00:12:26] I mean, Simon's hilarious.

[00:12:28] They did actually do an episode like that on what we do in the shadows.

[00:12:32] I think.

[00:12:33] Yeah.

[00:12:34] Yeah.

[00:12:34] Yeah.

[00:12:34] Oh, you're right.

[00:12:35] That's funny.

[00:12:35] I love what we do in the shadows.

[00:12:37] Yeah.

[00:12:37] That's one of my favorite comedies.

[00:12:40] Yeah.

[00:12:42] The food PR war.

[00:12:44] We got a couple of things on the new strategy from Asaria and Rhaenyra.

[00:12:50] Christina J said,

[00:12:51] Well, fruit is lovely to send King's Landing grain or millet.

[00:12:55] Is it millet?

[00:12:56] Is that how I say it?

[00:12:57] Millet, yeah.

[00:12:58] Okay, good.

[00:12:58] I was about to get added.

[00:13:00] Me, yay.

[00:13:00] No.

[00:13:01] Sorry.

[00:13:03] Oh, man.

[00:13:04] You're trying to make me French this whole time.

[00:13:07] Would be an improvement.

[00:13:09] It's a good PR stunt, but highlights Eamon's, I'll be at childish remark that they should be angry at the one enacting the blockade, which is the root cause of the starvation.

[00:13:21] Right.

[00:13:21] I mean, to be honest, that's a fair observation, but that's just not how human psychology works.

[00:13:28] Yeah.

[00:13:28] Like, I'm sorry.

[00:13:29] Have you looked at a poll recently?

[00:13:31] I don't think we're very good at getting to like the root causes of problems.

[00:13:35] No.

[00:13:36] No, we're just like, where can we blame and who can be our immediate savior and who can be the one that we pin all of our worries on?

[00:13:44] I always go by the aphorism that I don't remember who said it first, but like, a person is smart.

[00:13:52] People are dumb.

[00:13:54] Mm-hmm.

[00:13:55] You know, like, you put people of any intelligence level together in a large group, in a society level, and they will not make intelligent decisions a lot of the time.

[00:14:06] Well, it's just because people are so afraid of being the one who's different.

[00:14:10] Like, they've done all these psychological studies where they had people in a room where there's like, and they don't tell them what they're studying, of course, but they have like a bunch of lines, let's say, of different lengths on a whiteboard.

[00:14:23] And so they'll ask the group, which line is the longest line?

[00:14:29] And the answer will be visually fairly clear, but every other person in the room except the subject will be an actor, and they'll all confidently say a different line.

[00:14:38] And even though it's clear which one is correct, most of the time, the subject will agree with the group.

[00:14:47] Interesting.

[00:14:48] Interesting.

[00:14:49] But yeah, I just mean like, groupthink, you're right, groupthink is powerful.

[00:14:53] It's very powerful.

[00:14:54] And if, you know, a lot of the time people don't want a solution, they want somebody to blame.

[00:15:00] Right.

[00:15:01] And here they have that, right?

[00:15:02] They have an easy person to blame.

[00:15:05] They have somebody with a giant dragon getting sheep carted to the Red Keep while they're starving.

[00:15:10] Yeah, and someone they can call the hero who they said they helped.

[00:15:14] Right.

[00:15:15] Pausin is next.

[00:15:16] Alicia?

[00:15:18] Pausin says, what a fantastic move to send food to King's Landing, showing that Rhaenyra still cares for the small,

[00:15:24] folk.

[00:15:24] And then we have the whole riot as well.

[00:15:26] Masari is quite smart.

[00:15:28] Yeah, I agree.

[00:15:29] I call this the MVP move of the episode.

[00:15:33] Yeah, and I really do like that.

[00:15:36] They highlight that while the Greens are led by young men who are really war hungry, the Blacks are really led by someone who is like, what can I do to win without bloodshed?

[00:15:51] And that's awesome.

[00:15:53] And I do think maybe they are leaning a little too hard into Rhaenyra as the right person.

[00:15:59] You know what I mean?

[00:15:59] Like, I think that they could make her a little bit more of a great character.

[00:16:06] But because in the book, she is kind of more of a great character.

[00:16:11] But I mean, yeah.

[00:16:12] But I think that she's still a compelling character.

[00:16:15] I wish she was able to do anything but stay on Dragonstone, though.

[00:16:18] So does she.

[00:16:19] I know.

[00:16:20] I know.

[00:16:20] I think we're supposed to feel the frustration that she feels, and that's okay.

[00:16:25] Yeah, I agree.

[00:16:26] The next section is dragon riding tryouts.

[00:16:29] Yikes.

[00:16:31] Maureen D wrote in and said, even though I didn't read the book, it was pretty obvious to me that Stefan Darkly wasn't going to make it to demonstrate how dangerous and difficult it is to be a dragon rider.

[00:16:46] They should have named him Guy.

[00:16:49] Guy.

[00:16:50] Guy Fawkes.

[00:16:52] Fair enough.

[00:16:53] There's been plenty, plenty of good guys.

[00:16:55] I have an uncle named Guy, actually.

[00:16:57] Yeah?

[00:16:58] Yeah.

[00:16:59] So let's not.

[00:17:01] Does he remember the what?

[00:17:04] Go ahead.

[00:17:04] I was just going to say, let's not slander the name of Guy.

[00:17:07] No, it's just that they light a guy on fire every year in Britain.

[00:17:12] On Guy Fawkes.

[00:17:13] Oh, okay.

[00:17:14] Okay.

[00:17:14] Well, they're not British, so.

[00:17:18] All right.

[00:17:19] You want to go for?

[00:17:20] Yeah, now we're doing pause in.

[00:17:22] Yeah.

[00:17:22] Finally, Seasmoke has a rider in Adam of Hall, which I didn't see coming, but it makes sense that he has Valyrian blood.

[00:17:29] Rhaenyra and Jace were never looking at bastards to ride dragons.

[00:17:33] Yeah, of course.

[00:17:34] Of course.

[00:17:34] Which, like, they weren't looking at bastards to ride dragons, but they were looking at bastards riding dragons the entire time.

[00:17:42] Right?

[00:17:43] Well, but it's Valyria's kids, so that's, like, different, you know?

[00:17:47] Because they were raised high blood.

[00:17:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:17:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:17:53] I, uh, people are making memes like, are you saying that we could have bastards ride dragons?

[00:18:00] And they have Jace doing that, like, hands up, you got me face.

[00:18:05] And he's like, you said it, not me.

[00:18:10] I mean, I think, yeah, it's just this snobbishness, this natural snobbishness that they would never even think.

[00:18:16] Like, I think Sir Darklyn had probably way less blood than Adam of Hall does, you know, of the quote-unquote dragon riders.

[00:18:24] Whether that's, that still might just be propaganda, but as far as, I think as far as they know, it's true as well.

[00:18:29] Um, but yeah, they probably have much stronger blood, but, you know, but they're lowborn, so how could they possibly?

[00:18:37] Mm-hmm.

[00:18:39] Yeah, how could they possibly?

[00:18:41] A great question.

[00:18:42] And also, I'll say this, even more so than the Greens, I think Rhaenyra spent much of her childhood, teenagerdom, really dismissing the small folk, right?

[00:18:54] Like, she has that whole scene with Daemon where they're running through King's Landing.

[00:18:58] Right.

[00:18:58] They see this play where they're mocking her, and she's like, well, it doesn't matter what they think, they're small folk.

[00:19:03] Mm-hmm.

[00:19:04] Now, we haven't seen that come up in her adulthood, but I'm not, I'm going to assume that's still there underneath somewhere until I'm told otherwise.

[00:19:12] Well, I mean, I think that's the key of her having Masaria as an ally, because Masaria will be the, that's Masaria's main thing.

[00:19:20] Right, right.

[00:19:20] Think of the small folk, so she's going to...

[00:19:22] For the realm.

[00:19:24] Yeah.

[00:19:24] Right now, Rhaenyra's like, oh yeah, when you think of the small folk, it helps you sometimes.

[00:19:29] Numbers.

[00:19:32] Fair enough.

[00:19:33] Fair enough.

[00:19:34] Yeah, I do like this PR war she's waging.

[00:19:37] That is, that is fun to watch.

[00:19:38] Hmm.

[00:19:39] Yeah.

[00:19:39] All right, and then Davey Mac says, looks like Rhaena is going to go get another go at a dragon, right?

[00:19:46] The wild one in the veil?

[00:19:47] I'm hyped for that.

[00:19:48] What do you think?

[00:19:48] Is Rhaena going to get a dragon?

[00:19:51] Wafo.

[00:19:52] Wafo, indeed.

[00:19:53] Wafo, indeed.

[00:19:54] This is actually a tough Wafo.

[00:19:56] This is a tough Wafo.

[00:19:57] This is not, I'm not, we're not hinting at anything because we don't know much about this.

[00:20:02] No, we can make guesses, educated guesses, but yeah.

[00:20:06] So nobody thinks that we're leading you in a direction.

[00:20:08] There is no direction to be led.

[00:20:09] It's going off book regardless.

[00:20:12] Yeah.

[00:20:13] And George R. R. Martin wants us to know that the dragons of Dragonstone do not range as far as the veil.

[00:20:19] Okay, thank you, noted Mr. Martin.

[00:20:21] We understand it's your book.

[00:20:23] Yeah.

[00:20:23] Yeah.

[00:20:24] Let's all keep giving interviews explaining what we're not putting on screen.

[00:20:28] All right.

[00:20:29] Generational Trauma.

[00:20:29] He didn't make the show.

[00:20:30] Yeah.

[00:20:31] Generational Trauma.

[00:20:32] Would you like to read Christina Jay's email?

[00:20:35] Correction from last week's feedback.

[00:20:38] I called Viserys a deadbeat dad.

[00:20:39] I realized that isn't completely accurate.

[00:20:41] He was a good father to Rhaenyra, but emotionally distant and an absent father to his children with Alicent,

[00:20:47] which compounded the stunted growth of his children.

[00:20:50] The Greens should be a case study of generational trauma, duty, indoctrination, obedience,

[00:20:56] and a deep need for validation via one's own contribution to power stems from a time before Alicent.

[00:21:03] It is never remarked or recalled how Otto's brother was the one pressuring him as a second son to prove his worth at court,

[00:21:11] facilitating his greedy aims by utilizing his daughter to achieve his goals.

[00:21:15] We see emotionally that it is not conducive to instill second sons with inferiority complexes.

[00:21:24] We don't have to worry about Luke anymore.

[00:21:26] Don't worry.

[00:21:29] Pour one out.

[00:21:30] Oh.

[00:21:33] Yeah, I mean, I think that this just goes back to that inherent snobbishness that's not really questioned,

[00:21:40] and it's just sort of innate.

[00:21:42] We know that they don't learn a lesson.

[00:21:44] When is Game of Thrones set?

[00:21:46] Like 100 years later?

[00:21:47] Oh, yeah, it's 100-something years later.

[00:21:49] Yeah.

[00:21:50] We know that they don't learn lessons, and apparently their technology never advances either, but anyway.

[00:21:56] All right, so we paused in with the magic of podcasts, and we found out it is 166 years after this current point in the timeline.

[00:22:03] Okay.

[00:22:03] It's episode one of Game of Thrones.

[00:22:05] All right.

[00:22:06] Yeah.

[00:22:07] Well, they don't learn a lot politically, and they don't advance their technology much.

[00:22:14] Right.

[00:22:15] Right.

[00:22:16] Yeah, that is a question is like, why is technology so stunted?

[00:22:21] Hmm.

[00:22:21] Hmm.

[00:22:23] And, I mean, I think that's kind of a question that comes up in the Wheel of Time, too, right?

[00:22:26] And they don't really address it that much in Game of Thrones, but they do address it in Wheel of Time, and that's something that I like about that.

[00:22:33] That's one of my favorite bits.

[00:22:35] It's a little later in the series beyond what the TV show is, and I hope they do put it in the TV show, but they start like having…

[00:22:42] Yeah, I hope we have a TV show at that point, but let's…

[00:22:47] But, yeah, I hope that they do the institutes in Camelon.

[00:22:50] Yeah.

[00:22:51] Anyway.

[00:22:52] All right.

[00:22:53] All right.

[00:22:56] Do you have anything else on, Christina, or should we move on?

[00:22:58] Yeah, we can move on.

[00:22:59] Yeah, just good points.

[00:23:02] Good points.

[00:23:03] We'll be right back with more House of the Dragon.

[00:23:12] And we're back with more House of the Dragon.

[00:23:18] Aemon's bedside manner is the next topic.

[00:23:21] Lisa Red Zippy writes in on email and says,

[00:23:25] I'm quite obsessed with the ball Aemon returned to Aegon.

[00:23:28] It returned in quotes.

[00:23:30] I haven't gone down a rabbit hole of screenshots, but here are my two interpretations.

[00:23:35] One, with the news that Aegon is awake and doing better, Aemon went to visit him with the pretense of returning Aegon's ball as a PR gesture to say,

[00:23:43] I'm so glad you're feeling better.

[00:23:44] Here's your ball and we look forward to seeing you at small council soon.

[00:23:49] That's much nicer than I read it.

[00:23:51] Two is Aemon returns Aegon's ball when his meaning is, you are no longer needed at the small council.

[00:23:57] Here's your ball to keep and never come back.

[00:24:00] Firing him.

[00:24:01] Get it?

[00:24:02] Firing him.

[00:24:03] The way he fired his mom.

[00:24:05] Oh boy.

[00:24:07] I mean, I think it's definitely two.

[00:24:09] Yeah.

[00:24:10] The goal is the same.

[00:24:11] Aemon wants Aegon out of commission and presses the ball deeply into Aegon's chest, causing him great pain.

[00:24:19] Then suggests to the maester that Aegon has a long, hard road to recovery.

[00:24:23] Wink wink.

[00:24:24] For those who watch Succession, this reminded me of the series.

[00:24:27] I'm not going to do this because then we're going to spoil Succession.

[00:24:31] Go out Succession.

[00:24:32] It's very good.

[00:24:33] But it reminds something that happened in the finale.

[00:24:36] Yeah.

[00:24:37] Yeah.

[00:24:37] And I agree.

[00:24:38] That is a similar gesture.

[00:24:39] So good work.

[00:24:41] Good work, Lisa.

[00:24:42] Yeah.

[00:24:43] Yep.

[00:24:44] Yeah.

[00:24:44] I mean, I only read the most sinister of intentions into everything that Aemon's been doing in regards to Aegon ever since.

[00:24:52] Basically, it was since Aegon came and busted him up with his lady.

[00:24:58] Right.

[00:24:58] Right.

[00:25:00] So Larys' bedside manner is next.

[00:25:04] Maureen says, about Larys' bedside talk with Aegon, I'm not sure it was even a good message.

[00:25:10] It was the last thing Aegon needed to hear at that time when he's struggling to survive.

[00:25:15] As painful emotionally as Aemon pressing the ball into his wounds.

[00:25:19] Well put.

[00:25:19] And while having a clear head could ultimately help him survive, he needs at least some medication.

[00:25:25] He's fallen into a bosh-like hell.

[00:25:28] I can't imagine if his physical suffering and then to be at the whims of Aemond and Larys takes it down a few circles in hell.

[00:25:36] Yeah.

[00:25:37] Yeah.

[00:25:37] I mean, Aegon, for those who wanted Aegon punished, I do think, you know, I was thinking because there was discussion after the battle, did he die or not?

[00:25:46] And yeah, I know based on the book that he did not die, that it's like this.

[00:25:52] And I honestly think this is kind of worse in a way for him.

[00:25:57] You know, he's suffering in pain while everything falls apart around him and he has to watch it all and feel this physical agony.

[00:26:05] What do you think, John?

[00:26:06] Yeah.

[00:26:07] I mean, I saw somebody say, you know, Aegon, I saw this online separately from our discord, like Aegon finally feels the powerlessness that he's put women through.

[00:26:17] Hmm.

[00:26:18] And while I don't wish that powerlessness was on anyone, I think that might be part of the show intention.

[00:26:25] Somebody should equate that to him because I doubt he's drawing that.

[00:26:28] He probably thinks, nobody's ever suffered like this.

[00:26:31] I know.

[00:26:31] This is the worst suffering.

[00:26:32] Right.

[00:26:33] I fear we've learned no lessons here.

[00:26:35] Yeah.

[00:26:38] Yeah.

[00:26:39] Yeah.

[00:26:40] It's tough.

[00:26:41] Layer Cake also on the discord said, this is one of those situations where two things can be true at the same time.

[00:26:48] Yes.

[00:26:48] The speech Laris gave to Aegon about the struggles of having physical limitations and learning various ways to use them to your advantage was nice.

[00:26:55] I have a physical disability myself, spinal cord injury, wheelchair, the whole ordeal.

[00:26:59] And I can attest that he made some good and correct points that were probably helpful for Aegon to hear at his lowest moment in his young life.

[00:27:09] Hmm.

[00:27:10] Well, I'm sorry about that, Layer Cake.

[00:27:11] And I hope, I'm grateful that you were able to share that.

[00:27:16] Hmm.

[00:27:16] But this brings us to the other true thing, which is that Laris is a manipulative little snake who sure was not saying this at Aegon's bedside before Aemond laughed at him in front of the council and stripped him of his influence.

[00:27:31] The vibe here is very much, let me suck up to a different powerful person in case he recovers as much, if not more than it is.

[00:27:41] Let me help mentor this person whose struggle I relate to.

[00:27:44] In other words, good message, probably not the right messenger.

[00:27:48] Yeah.

[00:27:49] Well, yeah.

[00:27:50] Layer Cake.

[00:27:50] Thank you for sharing that.

[00:27:52] And, um, yeah, I think you, I, that is one thing that I always liked about Laris.

[00:27:57] He has said this before that, and, and this is something I said about Alan that she, sorry, Alison, that she needs to figure out now that she's no longer has direct access to power.

[00:28:09] Um, is what Laris always said about, you know, letting people not take him seriously so that he could finagle his way in.

[00:28:19] And, and yeah, nobody wants to do it as in his sinister way as he does, but, uh, he does make some good points about that, about how you can use power from the shadows like that.

[00:28:30] Right.

[00:28:31] But yeah, he's a, he's a snake.

[00:28:32] Yeah.

[00:28:33] Yeah.

[00:28:33] I do like when he says, you know, people will underestimate you and that will be your power.

[00:28:37] Great line.

[00:28:38] Yeah.

[00:28:39] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:40] Also, I just want to say, I just want to say, um, the way that Olivia cook says, egg on, like really, it really like scratches my brain in the right way.

[00:28:50] You know what I mean?

[00:28:50] Okay.

[00:28:51] Like the way it's, it's like egg on, egg on.

[00:28:53] And I, and I, I can't do it.

[00:28:54] I can't do it.

[00:28:55] I don't have the accent for it.

[00:28:56] Yeah.

[00:28:57] But, but it's like egg.

[00:28:59] Uh-huh.

[00:29:00] And I, and I really love it.

[00:29:01] I love it.

[00:29:02] Well, it is funny that's, uh, we know of at least one egg on who's called egg.

[00:29:07] Yes, we do.

[00:29:09] Yeah.

[00:29:10] Okay.

[00:29:11] Abby says, Laris is really something else.

[00:29:15] So he plays for the hand job now that he has no use for the feet job, but Aemon, but Aemon has no time for lick spittles.

[00:29:26] So back to Aegon, he goes the malleable one.

[00:29:29] It helps that Aegon is probably scared of his brother with good reason.

[00:29:33] Do we think it might be Alice referenced by Laris as the member of the household suspected of putting a curse on him?

[00:29:39] That, as Alicia, that was what I took away from it.

[00:29:42] What about you?

[00:29:43] Yeah.

[00:29:43] I mean, I put it in the show guide.

[00:29:45] Yeah.

[00:29:45] Right.

[00:29:46] Yeah.

[00:29:46] True.

[00:29:46] I put, I put a little note, like, is he talking about Alice here?

[00:29:49] I think, I think that's a clear signal.

[00:29:50] Cause it was, you know, in the same episode, we're talking about her heavily.

[00:29:53] Yeah.

[00:29:55] Yeah.

[00:29:56] All right.

[00:29:58] Rocky Zim says, that scene of Laris talking to Aegon, Aegon, reminded me of when Tyrion made the saddle for Bran after Bran had his fall.

[00:30:10] Tyrion seemed to try and help Bran authentically, whereas Laris seems to be scheming.

[00:30:15] Tyrion also, I think, spoke to Jon Snow in a similar manner.

[00:30:19] Yeah.

[00:30:19] I, that's, it's a big difference though, right?

[00:30:21] It's like, Tyrion, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think I'm going to try and help Bran authentically.

[00:30:23] Tyrion genuinely wants to, to bond with what, what is it?

[00:30:27] Bastards.

[00:30:28] Right.

[00:30:28] Broken things.

[00:30:30] Mm-hmm.

[00:30:30] Yeah.

[00:30:31] That, that whole quote.

[00:30:32] He definitely wants that.

[00:30:34] And he definitely wants a genuine connection.

[00:30:37] Whereas I don't think that Laris wants any of that.

[00:30:40] Yeah.

[00:30:40] I think Laris might be a bit of a psychopath to be quite honest.

[00:30:45] And I do mean that in the DSM way, the diagnostics and statistics manual.

[00:30:51] But I think, you know, a lot of people I have, it's come to my attention.

[00:30:56] I love Tyrion personally.

[00:30:57] I know he's George RR Martin's favorite character, but apparently there are a lot of people who don't like him and he does do bad things.

[00:31:04] Oh yeah.

[00:31:04] Putting, putting that aside for now, I, in general, see these two characters as, you know, when you are, people treat you a certain way because of the way you were born.

[00:31:17] You know, there's, which way do you go with it?

[00:31:20] Do you have a kinder heart or, you know, are you more sympathetic to other people?

[00:31:25] Or do you just like shut your heart down and take what you will?

[00:31:31] Although, yeah, the kinder hearts can be led astray as well.

[00:31:34] All right.

[00:31:35] Next up, you have Jean.

[00:31:37] Yeah.

[00:31:38] So Jean says, in that moment when Larys was at his bedside table, I felt a slight pang of sorrow for Aegon and then it was gone.

[00:31:46] And I thought, yeah, they deserve each other and whatever will befall them.

[00:31:51] Yeah.

[00:31:52] Yeah.

[00:31:54] They do kind of deserve each other, don't they?

[00:31:57] Yeah.

[00:31:57] They can go down together in flames.

[00:31:59] Yeah.

[00:32:00] Like Aegon's injury can cause us like sympathy on an interpersonal level, but that doesn't mean that we have to like support him.

[00:32:06] Right.

[00:32:06] Yeah.

[00:32:07] But in some ways he's less bad than his brother in some ways.

[00:32:11] In some ways.

[00:32:12] Yeah.

[00:32:12] I think he, yeah, he doesn't personally victimize people the same way other than people who have directly wronged him in his eyes, at least.

[00:32:19] Or an entire profession that might have been, had something to do with his son's death.

[00:32:25] No, I mean, Aemon doesn't personally victimize people.

[00:32:28] Oh, I see.

[00:32:29] Aegon does personally victimize people.

[00:32:31] Yeah.

[00:32:31] Yeah.

[00:32:31] I mean, I think that Aemon, I think that Aemon actually personally victimizes people even more, or at least he does for Aegon.

[00:32:41] Um, but I also, I think that Aegon, he is, he, at least he's just too lazy.

[00:32:50] Like that's his major flaw.

[00:32:51] Aemon doesn't have that flaw, but I don't think Aemon actually cares at all about people other than, you know, maybe his chosen, um, other figures, sexual stand in.

[00:33:02] But really, maybe Crispy.

[00:33:05] Who else does Aemon care about?

[00:33:08] I don't think he cares about someone, but I think he might be, this is why I've been saying, like, I think he might be a better ruler overall in times of peace than Aegon.

[00:33:17] I think Aegon is, he doesn't care about people necessarily, but if we're talking about impact over intent, I think he would treat people better so that.

[00:33:28] I disagree.

[00:33:30] I think he would treat the small folk better is what I'm saying.

[00:33:33] I disagree.

[00:33:33] Because I think Aegon is so short-sighted, he's not going to be able to have a stable kingdom.

[00:33:38] I think Aemon actually will long-term plan and be like, hey, we should have food stores so we don't have a problem here.

[00:33:43] I don't know.

[00:33:43] I think you're, I mean, he is a better planner, that's for sure.

[00:33:46] But we saw at the beginning of the season that Aegon was the one, you know, he's, he's short-sighted.

[00:33:52] He doesn't know how it works, but he wants to be a people pleaser and which is good for a ruler in a time of peace, at least.

[00:33:59] Um, and Aemon just does not care about the small folk.

[00:34:04] I don't think he would care about them any more in peace than he does in war.

[00:34:08] I don't think he, he cares, cares about them, but I think he.

[00:34:14] May understand, especially after this food thing.

[00:34:17] May understand, hey, you know, happy small folk, happy life.

[00:34:21] You know what I mean?

[00:34:22] Well, let's see if how he reacts to this.

[00:34:25] That's true.

[00:34:26] That's true.

[00:34:26] I felt more confident about this stance before this whole episode.

[00:34:30] And now I'm like, oh yeah, he might actually just be a bad ruler too.

[00:34:34] Yeah.

[00:34:34] I want them to pull back on him a little bit and show a little, um, a softer side, but just because I like to be conflicted about, you know, make me question whether I love or hate someone.

[00:34:45] And it is a more interesting character to say, okay, he actually is better for the small folk, even if he's interpersonally cruel and you don't want to be friends with him.

[00:34:53] Hmm.

[00:34:54] You know, that's a more interesting character to me than straight up villain.

[00:34:57] But I think it's, it is the opposite way around.

[00:34:59] Like people hated a gun, but I feel like he's better for the small folk.

[00:35:03] He just isn't, you know, he just doesn't know what he's doing.

[00:35:07] He's just like swinging wildly because he was the kid who slept in on Saturdays instead of reading the histories.

[00:35:13] Yeah.

[00:35:13] But then rather than learn, he sends away the hand and he puts crispy pole.

[00:35:19] You know what I mean?

[00:35:19] Like, I just don't think that there was any room for improvement there because he just wanted to double down on being awful.

[00:35:25] Hmm.

[00:35:25] I guess you're right.

[00:35:26] Yeah.

[00:35:26] His childish, I mean, both of them, I think suffer from too much ego and they just, uh, it just manifests in two different ways.

[00:35:35] Fair enough.

[00:35:36] Fair enough.

[00:35:37] We, I, I sense a mild accord.

[00:35:41] The kiss is next.

[00:35:43] Okay.

[00:35:44] I feel like we've both talked this to death, but other people want to join us.

[00:35:49] So let's, let's do it.

[00:35:51] Uh, Christina said, kick the horse.

[00:35:54] No.

[00:35:54] Yeah.

[00:35:55] Christina said, uh, the kiss felt like fan fiction.

[00:35:59] I was indifferent.

[00:36:00] Rhaenyra has always made sloppy choices in her personal life that can affect her personal goals.

[00:36:05] So let's hope this new foray doesn't backfire.

[00:36:07] She could use a little bit of Alison's retinence.

[00:36:10] Keep of the good work.

[00:36:12] Christina.

[00:36:13] All right.

[00:36:14] Should we continue with John's and then discuss them together?

[00:36:17] Yeah.

[00:36:17] Um, John says the kiss was an audible that was called by the actors.

[00:36:21] It wasn't initially in the script.

[00:36:23] I thought it fit the moment personally, and I wasn't surprised in the least.

[00:36:28] Um, so to kind of, yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, we've seen this range of reactions and

[00:36:33] yeah, I did hear that it came from the actors and that did help me feel like it was more authentic.

[00:36:38] Oh, it made me feel worse about it.

[00:36:40] It made me go like, oh, it's just, it's just, you thought this would be fun in a scene and

[00:36:44] it doesn't really tie with the greater story.

[00:36:46] I don't know.

[00:36:47] Well, I mean, it comes from a place of Rhaenyra being incredibly lonely and feeling, you know,

[00:36:55] like even her husband has turned on her.

[00:36:57] And Missaria is the one person who's making her feel good, like emotionally, like in terms of her pride.

[00:37:04] All right.

[00:37:04] If I'm going to defend it, then I'll say, okay, but also Missaria is the only one who really understands who her husband is as she does.

[00:37:12] Yeah.

[00:37:13] That's true.

[00:37:14] Maybe, maybe that's part of the defense there.

[00:37:17] All right.

[00:37:17] We'll see.

[00:37:17] I just, yeah, we'll see how it plays out after this, but.

[00:37:20] Right.

[00:37:21] So Maureen D on discord said, responding to the podcast discussion on the kiss, I wasn't upset by it because these two women were following, were each allowing themselves to be vulnerable for the first time in a long time.

[00:37:31] The intimacy forms interesting parallels to Alison, Kristen, Trist and the male characters, various trips to brothels.

[00:37:41] We'll see where they take it.

[00:37:42] It wasn't with a serving girl.

[00:37:44] So I don't see the power issue suggested on the podcast as an extreme comparison.

[00:37:48] It's not all the same at all.

[00:37:49] The same as a gone raping the servant.

[00:37:51] Oh, definitely not.

[00:37:52] I'm not trying to imply that that's the same.

[00:37:54] I do think that there is a power dynamic here of like, she is one of the small folk and, and Veneeric.

[00:38:01] Could have her sent away and, or executed at literally any moment.

[00:38:05] And that is, you know, there, there's a reason why nobles marry nobles, right?

[00:38:11] Other than, other than, um, you know, I think it's mostly, I think it's mostly for political game, but.

[00:38:19] All right.

[00:38:19] Well, I think one of the side effects of that is Veneer couldn't just order demon murdered right now without like a lot of backlash.

[00:38:26] Whereas, you know, Miss Aria there, if she ordered her killed, like.

[00:38:31] Maybe some of the small folk that worked for her would be upset, but like her nobles would be like, yeah, whatever.

[00:38:37] But here's a question.

[00:38:38] Could Eamon order Alison to murdered without a lot of backlash?

[00:38:42] Because I feel like he would be able to get away with it, actually.

[00:38:45] You think so?

[00:38:46] Yeah.

[00:38:47] Well, I think in the real world, there's definitely, we saw, we saw kings murdering their wives and, and, you know, other family, royal family members all the time.

[00:38:56] Especially if they're women or children.

[00:38:58] Yeah.

[00:38:59] Fair enough.

[00:38:59] Fair enough.

[00:39:00] I, I don't know.

[00:39:01] I, in this world, just how they've set it up.

[00:39:03] I feel like they would try to have some consequence.

[00:39:05] I think, uh, the consequence would probably be, he would lose the support of old town and the reach.

[00:39:12] Right.

[00:39:12] Well, I guess it's like we saw, um, we, we saw what's his face killed last year, Beasley.

[00:39:18] And now we're seeing a revolt because.

[00:39:21] Right.

[00:39:21] And I think, I think they would be like, all right, you might be related to us, but like, that's too much.

[00:39:27] Buddy, you know, we liked Alison.

[00:39:29] I do think there would, if not, I don't think there would be criminal consequences.

[00:39:33] I think you're right about that.

[00:39:34] I think there would be loyalty consequences, you know, a lack of troops after that.

[00:39:41] If Nira took out Damon though, I feel like there'd be consequences with his daughters probably, but, um, I feel like.

[00:39:48] I don't know.

[00:39:49] You say probably, I say maybe.

[00:39:52] Baylor doesn't seem to like him very much.

[00:39:55] What if that just like ended the war right there?

[00:39:57] He's like, I'll take out Damon and then we make peace.

[00:39:59] He's like, okay.

[00:40:01] Well, but then I guess she needs, she needs Caraxes, right?

[00:40:04] She would still have to take out Aemond because Aemond is not giving up that throne.

[00:40:09] Right.

[00:40:10] Yeah.

[00:40:10] Um, I like Athena's point.

[00:40:12] Speaking of Damon, Damon can make the ladies want nothing to do with men again.

[00:40:16] Oh, yeah.

[00:40:18] Um, yeah, that's true.

[00:40:21] That's true.

[00:40:23] All right.

[00:40:24] Dragon bonding is the next one.

[00:40:27] Um, Abby says.

[00:40:30] Rip.

[00:40:31] R.I.P.

[00:40:32] Sir Stefan, but it was predictable.

[00:40:34] Dragons don't like insecure people who are shitting their pants.

[00:40:38] Uh, blood or no blood.

[00:40:40] And this being sea smoke, it's obvious that someone was smelling like the sea would be chosen.

[00:40:46] I can totally relate to the dragon.

[00:40:48] Just look at what a sea snacky Adam is.

[00:40:51] Oh, wow.

[00:40:52] I like sea snacky.

[00:40:54] That's pretty funny.

[00:40:55] Yeah.

[00:40:56] Yeah.

[00:40:56] Adam, uh, I don't remember the actor's name who plays him, but he's been, uh, well appreciated on the online space.

[00:41:03] Oh, has he?

[00:41:04] Yes.

[00:41:05] Well appreciated.

[00:41:06] What a statement.

[00:41:09] Yeah.

[00:41:10] Uh, Jean says, uh, I came away from this episode with the thought that yet again, the show is saying the dragons are not just merely pets or mule animals.

[00:41:19] They are not lesser creatures.

[00:41:21] Sea smoke showed agency and actively choosing a new writer.

[00:41:24] I never questioned why sea.

[00:41:26] So I never questioned why sea smoke sought Adam out.

[00:41:30] Uh, lol.

[00:41:31] Lol.

[00:41:31] It made sense to me from when we first saw Adam glancing up at sea as sea smoke flew overhead, looking completely in awe and happy and amazed.

[00:41:41] The connection was there for me.

[00:41:42] And now if I felt that through the screen, then I know that sea smoke felt that flying around.

[00:41:50] Yeah.

[00:41:51] Yeah.

[00:41:52] Yeah.

[00:41:52] I did.

[00:41:53] Like I said, I think there is something in, I, there is some vague physical resemblance despite the lack of same hair color with lane or just in the way, you know, like the lean, handsome, pretty boy face.

[00:42:06] He's got the cheekbones for lane.

[00:42:07] Yeah.

[00:42:07] Um, but I think it's more like this, there's like a spirit.

[00:42:11] Yeah.

[00:42:11] That combining of the salt and sea and the fire and blood and yeah, the vibe it's, it's the, uh, it's the Lenor vibe check, you know?

[00:42:19] Mm.

[00:42:19] Mm.

[00:42:20] Mm.

[00:42:20] But does this mean that Lenor is dead?

[00:42:23] Um, I'm pretty sure.

[00:42:25] I think, I mean, and this is not, again, the book.

[00:42:29] And I think we've said this before.

[00:42:31] The book had him actually dead when the show faked his death.

[00:42:34] So we just don't know.

[00:42:35] We just don't know.

[00:42:36] I, I, maybe they just never will make it clear.

[00:42:38] I thought that what they might do actually is have, um, when they sent, you know, last season when Lenor left, I was like, oh, what if he comes back in a disguise and calls himself Adam of Hall?

[00:42:51] That's not what happened.

[00:42:52] Obviously.

[00:42:52] So Lenor in a wig the whole time.

[00:42:54] Yeah.

[00:42:55] Yeah.

[00:42:56] And, but he came back and called himself Adam of Hall and his dad doesn't recognize him.

[00:43:02] Well, I mean, that's just what's written in the histories.

[00:43:05] That doesn't mean that that's actually how it is.

[00:43:07] Yeah.

[00:43:08] Fair enough.

[00:43:09] It's like, yeah, sure.

[00:43:10] Could have just played along.

[00:43:11] Yeah.

[00:43:11] My bastard son.

[00:43:12] We just found.

[00:43:13] Wow.

[00:43:16] It's funny.

[00:43:19] Um, Kathy is next says I've been thinking about the plan to recruit more dragon writers and people from people with small amounts of Targaryen blood.

[00:43:29] And the more I do, the more it feels like a short sighted mid step to me.

[00:43:33] Rhaenyra is just looking as far as winning the war.

[00:43:36] But what about after?

[00:43:37] Good question.

[00:43:37] I know you guys talked about, talked on one pod about what's to stop someone from turning on Rhaenyra at the end of the war with the WMD you just handed them.

[00:43:46] But I was thinking more about the destruction of their own mythology.

[00:43:52] Yeah.

[00:43:52] Yeah.

[00:43:53] They've woven their mystical ability to tame dragons into their divine right to rule.

[00:43:58] What happens when you prove to the realm that you can put a Tully on a dragon?

[00:44:02] What's to stop the entire seven kingdoms from realizing there's nothing that special or divine about a true born Targaryen?

[00:44:09] I'm reminded a bit of Daenerys talking to Jon Snow in the dragon pit.

[00:44:13] How she spoke of the dragons growing small in the Targaryens, growing small with them.

[00:44:19] How they weren't extraordinary without them.

[00:44:22] And that they were just like everyone else.

[00:44:25] I'm a show only watcher, so I have no idea where this is all headed.

[00:44:29] But I'm kind of presuming everyone dies and this phrase was meant fairly literally.

[00:44:35] But maybe there's more than one way for the House of the Dragon to tear itself down.

[00:44:41] I just want to say on spoilers, if you're really trying to avoid spoilers, first of all, don't Google anything.

[00:44:47] I think we've made that very clear.

[00:44:48] Yeah, right, sure.

[00:44:48] Also, don't watch Game of Thrones again until the series is over because they literally will spoil the entire plotline of this war in one monologue.

[00:44:57] Yeah, because that's their history.

[00:44:59] Yeah.

[00:44:59] Right, right.

[00:45:01] Yeah.

[00:45:02] I mean, so yeah, I think that one, you know, I said about them being snobbish about it being lowborn bastards who can ride the dragons rather than more distantly related nobility.

[00:45:14] But I think actually in many ways that's better for them because you don't want indeed just for like any Tully to be like, oh, well, anyone can ride a dragon.

[00:45:23] Instead, it's like, no, you still have to have a good amount of Targaryen blood.

[00:45:27] And that just definitely minimizes the pool.

[00:45:29] And, well, I won't say anything about the sowing of the seeds.

[00:45:36] Right.

[00:45:37] But that's, yeah, we can, yeah.

[00:45:39] I mean, but we're setting up, we saw what happened with Sir Stefan Darklin.

[00:45:43] And you can imagine that, you know, it's going to be something that not everyone's going to want to attempt.

[00:45:51] Right.

[00:45:51] Yeah, that's the point is like, you can attempt it, but it's a high risk, high reward type of activity.

[00:45:58] Right.

[00:45:59] Yeah.

[00:45:59] Yeah.

[00:46:02] Waffle.

[00:46:03] Yeah.

[00:46:04] Is Helena foreshadowing again is the next segment.

[00:46:07] You want to do Lisa?

[00:46:08] Yes.

[00:46:09] Lisa Red Zippy says, what is Helena foreshadowing when she talks about her bug saying the one stop singing isn't that strange?

[00:46:16] My leading hypothesis is that she foresees her little brother, Darren, returning to the scene.

[00:46:21] The reference to Gwaine makes, the reference Gwaine makes to Allison about Darren being skilled at the lute signals to me a musical talent and one that will sadly get snuffed out.

[00:46:31] Hmm.

[00:46:32] I mean, it's interesting.

[00:46:34] For some reason, I thought they said, I thought she used a gender, but I guess, I guess not.

[00:46:39] I don't know why I thought that she gendered the bug as a female.

[00:46:43] I think she said this one stopped singing.

[00:46:46] Yeah.

[00:46:46] Yeah, exactly.

[00:46:47] Yeah.

[00:46:47] That's what Lisa says.

[00:46:50] So I don't know why I gendered it in my head thinking it was about a woman and that's maybe about Allison.

[00:46:55] Hmm.

[00:46:57] No, that would be interesting if it was about Allison because this one stopped singing.

[00:47:00] She's finally lost her voice.

[00:47:02] Right.

[00:47:03] Hmm.

[00:47:04] Interesting.

[00:47:04] I like that.

[00:47:05] Well, anyway, one thing that I was reminded of that I didn't mention.

[00:47:11] Read Lyra's ex.

[00:47:13] Lyra at the end.

[00:47:14] And the third one.

[00:47:16] Oh, okay.

[00:47:17] Okay.

[00:47:17] Lyra at the end says, Queen Helena's remark about the cricket who stopped singing may refer

[00:47:23] to Allison as a woman.

[00:47:25] She's been caged all her life by men, society, culture, et cetera.

[00:47:28] And now being removed from the council, she is essentially silenced.

[00:47:32] I like that.

[00:47:33] That's good.

[00:47:34] That's a really good interpretation.

[00:47:35] I guess my one thing is so far we've seen every one of Helena's prophecies comes to light

[00:47:43] later.

[00:47:44] Right.

[00:47:45] Yeah.

[00:47:45] And so I'm wondering if we're trying to assign it to something now, but it's actually going

[00:47:49] to be like the beast beneath the boards and it's going to be completely.

[00:47:52] But the beast beneath the boards.

[00:47:54] Well, we still don't exactly know whether that was that about Renese and Melis coming

[00:48:00] out of the dragon pit, but bursting out during Agen's coronation.

[00:48:04] I think so.

[00:48:05] Yeah.

[00:48:05] The other thought was maybe it was about blood and cheese, but I think probably because it

[00:48:09] was the first season, it was probably resolved in the first season.

[00:48:12] Yeah.

[00:48:12] And also, didn't she have another prophecy about blood and cheese?

[00:48:15] She was like, oh, well, I fear the rats.

[00:48:17] Yeah.

[00:48:17] That one was pretty clear.

[00:48:18] Yeah.

[00:48:19] So I think they're, you know, at the end of the day, this is something that the writers

[00:48:24] are putting in and I think they want to not make you remember something from a season

[00:48:27] ago because it's going to just be confusing.

[00:48:29] Right.

[00:48:30] But yeah, maybe it is predicting something, but I just previous.

[00:48:33] Well, I mean, I was going to say previously as book readers, you could predict, but the

[00:48:38] beast beneath the boards, I could not have predict what happened with Renese and Melis.

[00:48:42] So we don't.

[00:48:43] Yeah.

[00:48:44] Who knows?

[00:48:44] Could be anything.

[00:48:45] Could be anything.

[00:48:46] One thing I wanted to go back to quickly in the Darren discourse that Lisa brought up

[00:48:51] is, you know, Rhaegar was also known to be like a big, you know, musician as well

[00:48:59] as a warrior.

[00:49:00] Right.

[00:49:01] And I'm just thinking about if they're going to try to make Darren sort of a Rhaegar figure.

[00:49:06] Hmm.

[00:49:08] Yeah.

[00:49:09] Hmm.

[00:49:11] We skipped over Chris M though.

[00:49:12] Yeah.

[00:49:13] Yeah.

[00:49:13] So Chris says, I have no idea what Helena's crickets was about.

[00:49:17] At first I was thinking maybe something to do with Laris since he used that bug insignia

[00:49:23] when burning down Harrenhal.

[00:49:24] But I can't think of anything upcoming that would apply.

[00:49:27] My other thought is that maybe it's a reference to sea smoke finding a rider as crickets sing

[00:49:32] to attract a mate.

[00:49:33] I don't know.

[00:49:34] What do you think?

[00:49:36] Oh, maybe.

[00:49:37] Maybe it could be a sea smoke deal.

[00:49:40] Yeah.

[00:49:40] I just, I just, I don't think that it's something that we've seen yet.

[00:49:43] That's where I'm at.

[00:49:44] Yeah.

[00:49:44] Yeah.

[00:49:44] And the insignia that Laris is always wearing, it's, it's a firefly, but we don't really

[00:49:50] know what that means.

[00:49:51] If that's like attached to Harrenhal or the Riverland somehow or what, unless if somebody

[00:49:56] does know, please, please write in.

[00:49:58] All right.

[00:49:59] Next up, we're going to talk about team green slash Amond.

[00:50:02] All right.

[00:50:02] So Karen V wrote in with a voicemail or did wrote in spoken with a voicemail.

[00:50:06] Here we go.

[00:50:07] Okay.

[00:50:08] So this was easier to send as a voice recording because I'm driving.

[00:50:11] I want to comment a little bit on Amond.

[00:50:14] I am really holding out hope that we're going to see more growth and softness in him.

[00:50:19] Maybe not this season, but certainly next season.

[00:50:22] And if we go to four, that would be amazing.

[00:50:26] He not saying he's going to turn good.

[00:50:28] He's staying on his own side.

[00:50:29] And I think that he's ambitious, but I do think he has some softness in him.

[00:50:35] We've seen him when he was younger.

[00:50:36] He seemed to have an idealism that was, you know, seemed like he would be a better king

[00:50:44] than Aegon.

[00:50:45] And I think that he does care about Alicent.

[00:50:49] The reason I say that is that when it's mentioned that she might be married off in order to form

[00:50:55] an allegiance and she says, absolutely not.

[00:50:58] He backs down.

[00:51:00] And I don't think that he would have done that if he didn't actually care about her.

[00:51:04] It was completely 100% a normal thing to do in that universe.

[00:51:09] And as we know, in our own universe, and many would say Alicent deserves whatever she gets.

[00:51:15] Although I personally am sort of team Alicent in that I think everything she's gotten was given to her,

[00:51:21] whether she wanted it or not.

[00:51:23] But that's beside the point.

[00:51:26] I'm hoping that Amon, as he gets a little older, we're going to see a little more to him.

[00:51:31] A flat character is one that is completely evil, completely dark, never varies from that line.

[00:51:39] And I don't think George R.R. Martin writes flat characters generally, especially not major characters.

[00:51:46] So I think we're going to see him continue to develop.

[00:51:49] The other thing I want to say about that is that when he takes the small council ball to Aegon

[00:51:58] and presses it into Aegon's burned flesh, and he's so cruel, Aegon deserved that shit.

[00:52:06] Aemond fucking hates Aegon.

[00:52:08] Aegon tortured Aemond his whole life.

[00:52:11] The things that we've seen Aegon do to Aegon, just the little tiny things,

[00:52:15] that is a small piece of what probably actually happened.

[00:52:20] So Aegon, I think, is sort of justified in how much he hates Aegon,

[00:52:25] and I don't think that that should be conflated with Aegon's behavior in other situations.

[00:52:32] I think right now he's young, he's high on power, he's sort of feeling himself.

[00:52:37] Hopefully he's going to have a couple humbling moments,

[00:52:40] especially with some more dragons coming to fruition on the Black side,

[00:52:44] which presumably the Greens don't even know about.

[00:52:47] So I think that there's a lot of room for growth,

[00:52:50] and I'm holding out hope that he will continue to be an interesting character

[00:52:53] and not just sort of delve into the boring, completely evil side.

[00:52:58] Last thing I want to say is I love Sea Smoke so much.

[00:53:02] She just said, fuck the patriarchy.

[00:53:04] I'm going to find my own man.

[00:53:06] And she went and did it, and good for her.

[00:53:12] Well, I agree with everything about Sea Smoke and Allison's.

[00:53:16] And I think, and I agree also that Eamon started as,

[00:53:21] I thought that he was like a really well-rounded character,

[00:53:25] the way that he was developing,

[00:53:27] developing, which is why I said that I was disappointed to see him becoming a little more one-dimensional,

[00:53:35] I feel like, in the last few episodes.

[00:53:37] I think Karen's interpreting his actions more kindly than I am.

[00:53:43] But it is a very good point that who else is he that cruel to but Eamon?

[00:53:48] It is kind of specific,

[00:53:50] although I think he's casually cruel in chilling ways as well.

[00:53:55] What do you think, Jon?

[00:53:56] Yeah, I think that's part of why I say,

[00:53:58] I think he's less damaging overall to the realm than Eamon is.

[00:54:03] He's not doing the showmanship of let's tie the rat catchers up and whatnot.

[00:54:09] And I think Karen's right.

[00:54:11] It is more targeted violence.

[00:54:13] I'm not saying it's justified, but it's targeted at least.

[00:54:16] But what have we seen him do that is good for the realm?

[00:54:20] It's true.

[00:54:20] He's much better studied.

[00:54:22] But what have we seen him do that was good for the realm and not just for Eamon?

[00:54:28] Working that sick eye patch.

[00:54:31] I mean, the looks, but yes, fair.

[00:54:34] He's had a mewing streak for like the last 20 years.

[00:54:38] All right.

[00:54:38] We talked about that.

[00:54:39] Some of us do it all the time, okay?

[00:54:42] Your mewing streak is impeccable, I guess.

[00:54:45] All right.

[00:54:48] Okay.

[00:54:49] So we got Team Alicent.

[00:54:52] Team Green Alicent.

[00:54:54] Denise the Dreamer said,

[00:54:56] Love when Alicent realizes her arm got cut in the same place she cut Rhaenyra.

[00:54:59] Yeah.

[00:55:00] We didn't talk about that, but that was a good observation there.

[00:55:04] Oh, God, we're the same.

[00:55:07] It's bizarre that she didn't ever reflect or we didn't see her reflect on like, wow, I just had sex with Kristen Cole in Rhaenyra's old room.

[00:55:18] Yeah, but people are hypocrites like that.

[00:55:21] I think that's realistic.

[00:55:24] Fair enough.

[00:55:24] Fair enough.

[00:55:25] Yeah.

[00:55:25] Christina J on an email said,

[00:55:27] Back to my girl Allison.

[00:55:28] Yes, she's sloppy, but I feel like I have to pronounce that schloppy just based on the-

[00:55:34] On Adam Sandler?

[00:55:36] Yeah.

[00:55:36] Very Adam Sandler.

[00:55:38] But far more compelling as she is more realistically portrayed and compelling if I'm being honest.

[00:55:46] So many continue to put everything at her feet.

[00:55:48] Aegon, Aegon.

[00:55:50] The seduction of Viserys.

[00:55:51] Yes, there are those that blame the miner for the lust of her BFFs dad.

[00:55:55] Clown face.

[00:55:58] The entire dance, this is, in my opinion, inflated and wholly inaccurate.

[00:56:03] Did she side with the patriarchy?

[00:56:05] Yes.

[00:56:05] But we all know Ado has been running a 20-year-long game that didn't at all require Allison's acquiescence.

[00:56:12] Even when she thought she was doing right, hearing Viserys' words, it didn't matter.

[00:56:17] Realizing your entire life has been a lie, a manifestation of others' dreams and desires,

[00:56:22] isn't the easiest bit of reality check to swallow.

[00:56:26] Nor is the idea that it was all for nothing.

[00:56:28] A woman who abhorred the idea of tourney combat has borne fruit from her body without love or attraction to violent men.

[00:56:37] With all their toxic traits, she hoped to curb.

[00:56:41] It is a disappointment that she inwardly blames herself for.

[00:56:45] That she deserves it feels less warranted, as many of her choices, quote,

[00:56:51] were never really her own, no matter how in line she fell with them.

[00:56:56] Rhaenyra was able to have romantic partners explore her femininity and love and continue making human but politically questionable decisions,

[00:57:05] all the while protected by Viserys from the consequences of her own actions.

[00:57:10] What do we actually think would happen should Allison refuse to do the one thing she was once again indoctrinated to believe?

[00:57:17] Historically, we know the answer, but it's hardly given credence.

[00:57:20] It's the lack of empathy that bothers me when it comes to her character.

[00:57:24] She's not a victim, but has been victimized.

[00:57:28] Interesting.

[00:57:28] You know, this is a very good take.

[00:57:30] This is a very good take.

[00:57:31] Would you like to react first, Alicia?

[00:57:32] I mean, I will be a team black Allison topologist until the end.

[00:57:38] Yeah, yeah.

[00:57:40] Look, the dance is obviously not like only her fault.

[00:57:43] I think she played a part.

[00:57:45] I don't, you know, we can say that like patriarchy gave her a script to follow and she followed it.

[00:57:51] And that is mitigating, but I don't think it fully excuses her behavior either.

[00:57:55] Right?

[00:57:56] I mean, but you just see alone the difference between her relationship with her father and Rhaenyra's relationship with her father.

[00:58:01] And one had, I mean, both of their fathers wanted great things for them, but one saw that she could be great in her own right.

[00:58:08] And the other one said, the only way for you to be great is to be sneaking in the shadows and, you know, doing, be like Larys, he said, basically.

[00:58:18] Right.

[00:58:18] Right.

[00:58:19] Yeah.

[00:58:21] Icky.

[00:58:21] Icky.

[00:58:22] And yeah, I think Otto could be most, I think Otto shoulders most of the blame for the dance of the dragons.

[00:58:27] Him and, and Viserys's weakness and passivity.

[00:58:32] Yeah.

[00:58:33] But as far as intentional actions, I should say, I think Otto is the one that we could most wholly put the blame on.

[00:58:40] Right.

[00:58:40] I agree.

[00:58:41] But yet, I can't wait for him to come back.

[00:58:44] To see.

[00:58:45] Oh, he's a pleasure to watch.

[00:58:46] Yeah.

[00:58:47] See what, what's been going on while he's been out of town and please bring your grandson.

[00:58:53] Yes.

[00:58:54] Yes.

[00:58:56] Abby says, Alison getting fired was coming to be fair.

[00:58:59] She was on the small council for no good reason other than hubris after crowning Agen.

[00:59:03] Oh, I am mad at her now for taking Helena to light candles.

[00:59:08] Helena doesn't give a flying bug about the seven.

[00:59:10] I would think, and she would have been safer somewhat in the red keep.

[00:59:14] Um, yeah, I mean, I don't know.

[00:59:17] I'm like I said, I'm an Alison apologist.

[00:59:18] So I do think that, uh, the small council and thus King's landing and team green is all the worse for not listening to Alison because she's one of the only ones with wisdom and experience and a level head left.

[00:59:32] Um, and I, I think it's, I don't know.

[00:59:36] I can't blame her for doing something she does all the time.

[00:59:39] Um, and not expecting it to go turn into a riot this time.

[00:59:45] Yeah.

[00:59:46] Yeah.

[00:59:47] I mean, every time she goes to the step, something weird happens, right?

[00:59:51] So she just, stop, stop going.

[00:59:54] Rhaenyra shows up or there's a riot.

[00:59:56] Like there's a, there's fish involved.

[00:59:58] I don't know.

[00:59:59] Um, yeah, I mean, I, I'd say it definitely was expected for her to be thrown out the council because, you know, there is the question of like, what is your position?

[01:00:09] And that, that's a real question, right?

[01:00:11] Um, at the same time, I think she should have had a position, right?

[01:00:16] You know, special advisor to the, to the council, whatever.

[01:00:19] Right.

[01:00:19] Um, because she did have that wisdom, right?

[01:00:21] Like, even though I disagree with how she came to power, I think she has, um, really earned it in retrospect.

[01:00:30] Like she did rule the kingdom for several years, at least in a time of peace and maintained peace.

[01:00:37] The worst thing she ever did was just jump on, uh, the, um, what's his name?

[01:00:44] Vaman to claim about Driftmark.

[01:00:47] That was like the worst thing she did while holding power.

[01:00:50] But other than that, you, and, and that shouldn't bother them because that was against Rhaenyra, right?

[01:00:54] Right.

[01:00:54] Um, but other than that, she, she really, you know, she kept everybody fed.

[01:00:57] She kept the, the people from rioting.

[01:01:00] I think, you know, they should be listening to her a lot.

[01:01:02] And to Aegon's credit, he did keep her in that position.

[01:01:06] And, um, this is where Aemond is being too pigheaded, you know, that he, he just wants to prove that he is like, he is the king, the power that, you know, he's going to distance.

[01:01:19] He doesn't realize that it always takes a village.

[01:01:22] This is why there's a council because you should be listening to other people as well.

[01:01:25] You're very smart.

[01:01:26] You're very well read.

[01:01:27] This is true.

[01:01:28] But, uh, if you're not listening to outside input, then, you know, this is the fastest track down the wrong path.

[01:01:36] Right.

[01:01:37] All right.

[01:01:37] Let's keep moving.

[01:01:38] Cause we're running a little short on time here.

[01:01:41] Um, we have team green slash Gwaine next.

[01:01:47] That is Nate writing in saying favorite conversation was probably Gwaine and Allison.

[01:01:53] Gwaine definitely has gotten more serious since, uh, once he saw the dragons and what they could do.

[01:01:59] And though he and Allison clearly aren't close, he was trying to make her feel better by telling her how good a kid Darren is.

[01:02:06] Allison, though, clearly sees the problem as her.

[01:02:09] It's me.

[01:02:10] Yeah.

[01:02:10] So, so I will say that is, I, I have, I have mixed feelings because one, she was 15 when she had her first kid, right?

[01:02:18] Or 16.

[01:02:19] Was it 16?

[01:02:20] Anyway, young.

[01:02:21] Point is young and a teenager and basically a child.

[01:02:24] Uh, and so you can understand why she wasn't ready to have kids.

[01:02:28] That being said, even when she got into adulthood, she didn't really form a bond with her kids and she didn't really do a lot of mothering.

[01:02:33] She relied a lot on servants.

[01:02:34] It seems like it's implied at least.

[01:02:36] And, uh, so I have mixed feelings on it.

[01:02:39] I think the early years, you can definitely excuse that for youth.

[01:02:42] I think later she didn't really step up, but, uh, yeah.

[01:02:45] I still blame all this on her father.

[01:02:48] Yeah.

[01:02:49] I, I, yeah.

[01:02:49] This is all definitely Otto's fault.

[01:02:51] All of this.

[01:02:51] Yeah.

[01:02:52] Yeah.

[01:02:53] Yeah.

[01:02:53] Um, and Viserys, right?

[01:02:55] Like Viserys should have been fathering too.

[01:02:57] And he did not.

[01:02:58] He forgot that he has more than one child.

[01:03:01] It's, it's that meme with the, um, I think I said this to David, but he didn't get it because he hadn't seen it.

[01:03:06] You know what I'm talking about?

[01:03:07] The meme with like the mom in the pool.

[01:03:09] Yeah, holding up the baby and then one's drowning and then there's a skeleton at the bottom.

[01:03:12] Yeah.

[01:03:12] At the bottom is Darren.

[01:03:13] Yeah.

[01:03:14] Oh, well, I mean, yeah.

[01:03:16] Darren's thriving.

[01:03:17] He learned to, he grew gills and learned to breathe underwater.

[01:03:19] Exactly.

[01:03:20] Exactly.

[01:03:21] So let's talk about Darren quick.

[01:03:23] You want to read Lisa's?

[01:03:24] Um, yeah.

[01:03:25] So Lisa said, when do you think Darren will be introduced on the show this season or not until next season?

[01:03:31] There have been so many Darren mentions and a missing Otto that I believe he will show up in the final episode of season two, returning with his father and a dragon.

[01:03:39] Is HBO keeping a casting secret?

[01:03:41] Will one of the final shots of the season be the unveiling of the actor as this character, as well as our first glimpse of Tessarion, which is his dragon?

[01:03:49] Um, yeah.

[01:03:51] I mean, I feel like they, like, I'm, I'm glad that they're mentioning him because it felt like they forgot about him in season one.

[01:03:57] Um, we kind of forgot about Darren, right?

[01:04:00] Like Danny in the fleet and the iron fleet.

[01:04:02] Um, but yeah, so I, it does feel like they're gearing up to, to introduce him this season.

[01:04:10] That is a feeling I get.

[01:04:12] What do you think?

[01:04:12] I think so.

[01:04:13] Well, actually, you know what my prediction is?

[01:04:15] You're going to get a behind the head shot of a person with blonde hair.

[01:04:23] They could be filled in with it by anyone.

[01:04:26] You're going to get either on a dragon or on a chariot or something, you know what I mean?

[01:04:30] Like something that signals it's Darren, but they're not going to show a face because they haven't cast him yet.

[01:04:33] That's probably my, that's my guess.

[01:04:36] I don't, I mean, they could well be keeping a casting secret.

[01:04:40] I just feel like HBO with this show, like they try so hard to keep all the leaks in and it never works.

[01:04:46] This is the leakiest show on television.

[01:04:48] That's for sure.

[01:04:49] All right.

[01:04:50] Uh, shall we hear a voicemail from Nancy M?

[01:04:53] Yes.

[01:04:53] Our hand of the pod.

[01:04:54] Hi, Laura.

[01:04:55] Hands.

[01:04:55] It's Nancy M hand of the pod.

[01:04:58] And I thought that it was about time that I left my own voicemail because you're always talking about how much you love getting voicemails.

[01:05:07] And I've never actually left one.

[01:05:08] I'm not a big fan of my voice, but what the hell here goes.

[01:05:12] Something struck me this episode when Gwaine was describing Daeron to Alicent.

[01:05:18] Alicent groomed Aegon and Aemon to hate Rhaenyra's boys in spite of Viserys' best efforts, making them fear that if Rhaenyra took the throne, their lives would be in danger.

[01:05:29] And this was before Alicent misunderstood Viserys' dying words.

[01:05:34] And while we don't have scenes of Otto specifically grooming them, all Alicent said and did must have been echoed by their grandsire.

[01:05:41] Having been raised away from the Red Keep, Daeron has grown up to be what Gwaine described as a normal and decent boy.

[01:05:48] I can't help but wonder if this was always part of the Hightower plan, to have a spare heir to the throne groomed to be an eventual king, believing that Aegon and Aemon wouldn't survive long on the Iron Throne.

[01:06:03] Thanks for the chance to leave a voicemail and great pod.

[01:06:08] I so enjoy listening.

[01:06:10] Ness, you have a lovely voice.

[01:06:11] Don't talk down on yourself.

[01:06:13] Everyone feels that way about their voice.

[01:06:15] Yeah.

[01:06:16] I mean, I hardly listen to our podcasts because I'm just like, I don't want to hear my voice that long.

[01:06:21] But I think that was a great point.

[01:06:23] Yeah.

[01:06:24] It's the Harry Potter strategy, right?

[01:06:27] Put him with the Dursleys and then when he's ready, he'll come back.

[01:06:30] It'll be a normal person.

[01:06:33] Yeah.

[01:06:34] I mean, yeah.

[01:06:34] I do wonder if like that could be having the spare that's I mean, but I guess also I guess the idea is he's supposed to inherit Old Town.

[01:06:45] Is he?

[01:06:45] I don't think so.

[01:06:46] No, because he's through the second Sun line.

[01:06:49] Right.

[01:06:49] True.

[01:06:49] Good point.

[01:06:50] Hmm.

[01:06:50] Yeah.

[01:06:51] No, there's no succession to Old Town there.

[01:06:53] But then why was.

[01:06:54] Yeah.

[01:06:55] I mean, in case something happens to Gwaine.

[01:06:59] Maybe.

[01:06:59] I think he just was warding.

[01:07:00] That's just a thing that they do in this world, right?

[01:07:03] Yeah.

[01:07:03] Yeah.

[01:07:03] Ned was just sent to ward at.

[01:07:06] Yeah.

[01:07:07] What's it called?

[01:07:08] Storm's End.

[01:07:09] Or no, not Storm's End.

[01:07:10] He warded in the Vale.

[01:07:11] Robert was also warding there.

[01:07:12] Like that's just something that you do.

[01:07:14] Mm hmm.

[01:07:15] That's true.

[01:07:16] Good point.

[01:07:18] Yeah.

[01:07:18] I don't know, but it could be.

[01:07:20] Yeah.

[01:07:20] It could be strategic indeed.

[01:07:21] And indeed, it seems to have kept him less corrupt from all the King's Landing politics.

[01:07:28] Yeah.

[01:07:28] It paid off a bit, didn't it?

[01:07:29] Mm hmm.

[01:07:31] Well, thanks, Nancy.

[01:07:32] That's a really cool sentiment.

[01:07:34] And I appreciate that you wrote in with that.

[01:07:36] We have another voicemail next.

[01:07:38] It is Karen V on Jakaris.

[01:07:43] Okay.

[01:07:43] One other thought I want to mention about Jace, just because I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere.

[01:07:49] And I am fully online, Reddit, Discord, listen to all the podcasts, haven't read books.

[01:07:56] But I've, you know, everyone's talking about how Jace is serving looks.

[01:08:02] And, you know, that's true.

[01:08:04] He's a good looking kid.

[01:08:05] But I have noticed distinctly how it seems like they are styling him to really emphasize the similarity between him and his father, Harwin Strong.

[01:08:19] The curly hair, the same length, even the same type of attire, even though obviously Harwin Strong was mostly wearing armor when we saw him.

[01:08:27] Um, they don't probably look all that much alike, the actors, but I feel like they're really emphasizing that.

[01:08:35] And, um, it's just an interesting thing that I noticed.

[01:08:40] That's a good point.

[01:08:41] Now that you pointed out, Karen, that I definitely see it.

[01:08:45] He's such a strong boy with strong features.

[01:08:48] Strong jeans.

[01:08:49] Yeah.

[01:08:49] Yeah.

[01:08:50] Um, yeah, I, I think, I mean, what would be the point of doing that?

[01:08:55] Maybe to emphasize a more kindhearted nature?

[01:09:00] Oh, I was thinking to emphasize that he's a bastard that rides a dragon.

[01:09:03] Okay.

[01:09:04] Well.

[01:09:04] You know, like, just for like a lore perspective, right?

[01:09:07] Like, are you saying bastards can ride dragons?

[01:09:10] Like, yeah.

[01:09:11] Yeah, mom.

[01:09:12] Yeah.

[01:09:14] Uh, yeah.

[01:09:15] I mean, I think it could also, I don't know that I'm interpreting it also in that, uh,

[01:09:20] he's got some of the kindness of his father rather than just like all the Targaryen madness.

[01:09:25] Right.

[01:09:26] Yeah.

[01:09:27] I see that.

[01:09:28] Uh, well, thanks for calling in Karen.

[01:09:30] I like that idea.

[01:09:31] Just record a voice memo in your car and send it to us.

[01:09:34] Yeah.

[01:09:35] All right.

[01:09:36] Team black.

[01:09:37] So last run here.

[01:09:38] You want to read layer cake?

[01:09:38] Uh, so layer cake says, um, said in a DM to Nancy, Rhaenyra is fed up, man, fed up on

[01:09:46] a number of fronts too.

[01:09:47] Many of which have been bubbling for most of the season and or most of her life.

[01:09:51] Her counsel is still back talking her to her face.

[01:09:54] Daemon is off doing whatever Daemon wants to do.

[01:09:57] And she has no clue if any of that aligns with her interests.

[01:10:00] A situation made worse by her own son telling her she needs Daemon to save the day.

[01:10:04] She's undermanned and under dragoned and her plans to remedy the second thing are actually

[01:10:10] making the first thing worse.

[01:10:12] RIP, Sir Stefan.

[01:10:13] And now there are loose dragons flying off and acquiring mysterious writers in the woods

[01:10:17] like rebellious teens.

[01:10:19] This is why she's out here slapping people in hallways and carrying swords around and stealing

[01:10:24] tender embraces and smooches with mysterious figures who also hate Daemon's stupid face.

[01:10:30] And flying off on her dragon to figure out one goddamn thing for her goddamn self instead

[01:10:35] of relying on a bunch of brats and cranks who are going to mess it up or give her crap

[01:10:40] about it.

[01:10:41] Is it the smartest move she's made this season?

[01:10:43] Launching herself into a vulnerable position out of rage and frustration and a feeling of

[01:10:48] helplessness?

[01:10:49] I mean, no, no, it is not.

[01:10:51] But do I get it?

[01:10:53] Yup.

[01:10:54] Yeah.

[01:10:55] No, I agree too.

[01:10:56] I think.

[01:10:57] Yeah.

[01:10:58] Well put.

[01:10:59] Yeah.

[01:11:00] And funnily.

[01:11:02] Yeah, no, thanks for that point.

[01:11:04] I think that's right.

[01:11:06] I think she is as frustrated as we are watching her.

[01:11:08] Yeah.

[01:11:09] Yeah.

[01:11:10] Yeah.

[01:11:10] She keeps communicating that.

[01:11:12] Right.

[01:11:13] All right.

[01:11:14] So team unknown, Alan and Adam.

[01:11:18] Cyrus says, it's interesting that Alan, who had to hide his parentage because it may have

[01:11:24] been more obvious, is reluctant to take on the mantle as being accepted as the natural son

[01:11:29] of his Corliss.

[01:11:30] While Adam, who has not had to deal with it, seems hungry for that attention.

[01:11:33] Thematic and characteristically, it fits for me.

[01:11:35] Yeah.

[01:11:35] That's a great contrast.

[01:11:36] Maybe that's why they changed the hair of Adam.

[01:11:38] I think so.

[01:11:39] I think so.

[01:11:41] Yeah.

[01:11:41] Yeah.

[01:11:41] You know, talk about like how the circumstances of your childhood will impact the way they

[01:11:47] react to things later.

[01:11:49] Yeah.

[01:11:49] And the personality you build.

[01:11:50] Yeah.

[01:11:51] Yeah.

[01:11:52] But he's the one sitting on the dragon.

[01:11:54] Give me some small folk thoughts from Lisa.

[01:11:57] Okay.

[01:11:58] Lisa said, I'm never quite sure who is working for Masaria.

[01:12:01] I'm beginning to think anyone who speaks is in her network except Ulf and Hugh.

[01:12:06] I understand Sylvie and Diana planting doubts about Team Green with Ulf in the pub because

[01:12:11] it has been established that Ulf is a guy who loves telling stories to anyone who will

[01:12:16] buy him a drink.

[01:12:17] So that delivery system is efficient.

[01:12:20] Yeah.

[01:12:20] Good point.

[01:12:20] Right.

[01:12:21] Right.

[01:12:21] Yeah.

[01:12:21] This is funneling everything through Ulf.

[01:12:25] I love that.

[01:12:26] Yeah.

[01:12:26] It's like calling the newspaper writer.

[01:12:30] Like, who's going to tell it?

[01:12:31] I have a lead for you.

[01:12:33] Yeah.

[01:12:34] I also choose to believe that the small folk, the person who brought the queen's gift of

[01:12:41] food to King's Landing, declaring that Queen Rhaenyra still loves them, is in her network.

[01:12:46] All for now.

[01:12:47] I feel the last two episodes have done a masterful job setting up the chess pieces for the final

[01:12:51] two episodes.

[01:12:52] Definitely.

[01:12:53] Yeah.

[01:12:54] I keep forgetting that we only have two episodes left.

[01:12:56] And like, yeah, this is probably next episode is going to be insane because that's usually

[01:13:01] what they do in this universe, right?

[01:13:02] It is second to last episode is the crazy one.

[01:13:05] Right.

[01:13:05] And then they have to deal with the fallout in the finale.

[01:13:07] Right.

[01:13:08] Although, last season I would say they broke that a little bit.

[01:13:11] I think there was kind of craziness in both of them.

[01:13:14] I have, well, yeah, I have some suspicions about what will happen, but we'll see.

[01:13:18] We will all waffle together.

[01:13:20] That's true.

[01:13:21] We are the waffle.

[01:13:24] All right.

[01:13:24] Chris M says on Small Folk, I think the show has been telling us from early on that the

[01:13:29] question of loyalty is one for the nobility, not the small folk.

[01:13:32] Messaria herself, pre-Rhaenyra, makes that pretty clear.

[01:13:35] She goes to the highest bidder.

[01:13:37] Similarly, the small folk go to whoever is taking care of their interests.

[01:13:41] Larys reminds Aemond of this in the episode two, telling him that even though, yes, the

[01:13:46] starvation is caused by the Black Spockade, the people are mad at the greens because they

[01:13:50] control the city.

[01:13:51] So it's their duty to protect them.

[01:13:52] Black or green is pretty irrelevant to people who are just trying to get through the day.

[01:13:57] They're a wild card that goes to the best protector.

[01:14:00] If we're going to start having small folk riding dragons, I could see this becoming an

[01:14:03] interesting tension point brought up in the Black Council.

[01:14:07] Keep up the great coverage.

[01:14:08] The great points, I think that's absolutely right.

[01:14:11] I think people are just worried about getting their next meal at this point.

[01:14:16] Yeah, I completely agree.

[01:14:17] And last but not least, lore about dragons and women as peace weavers from Marilyn, our

[01:14:23] favorite Tolkien scholar.

[01:14:25] So Marilyn says, hello, lore hounds.

[01:14:27] Well, I heard you saying that dragons are mammals.

[01:14:29] I really have to disagree with that.

[01:14:31] Who said that?

[01:14:32] No, I don't know.

[01:14:33] Who said that?

[01:14:33] I don't remember saying that.

[01:14:34] Maybe I did.

[01:14:35] I don't know.

[01:14:36] I definitely didn't say.

[01:14:38] Actually, George R. R. Martin wrote in that recent blog post about a lot about the dragon

[01:14:44] physiology.

[01:14:44] But anyway, Marilyn says, dragons are much more reptiles than mammals.

[01:14:46] I'm going to blame David because he's not here.

[01:14:48] Okay.

[01:14:49] Go ahead.

[01:14:49] That's safe.

[01:14:50] Dragons are much more reptiles than mammals, despite the occasional cat-like qualities given

[01:14:55] to them by some illustrators.

[01:14:56] You'd have a better case with birds.

[01:14:59] In addition to being able to fly and lay eggs, ducks will imprint on humans and sometimes

[01:15:03] on other birds.

[01:15:04] Yeah.

[01:15:04] And I mean, dragons are essentially dinosaurs.

[01:15:07] Like that's kind of, I think, where the idea of them came from.

[01:15:10] And dinosaurs evolved into birds.

[01:15:13] Right.

[01:15:14] Indeed, I believe that birds are considered to be the last, oh, there we go.

[01:15:18] Indeed, I believe that birds are considered to be the last surviving remnants of dinosaurs,

[01:15:23] evolutionarily speaking.

[01:15:24] And since one theory says that dinosaur bone fossils are part of what contributed to the

[01:15:29] image of the dragon and cultures around the world, that seems a far more apt comparison.

[01:15:33] Once again, Marilyn and I are thinking alike.

[01:15:36] Yep.

[01:15:37] Yep.

[01:15:37] I like that you went through this whole thing just to read the same thing from her.

[01:15:40] That was pretty funny.

[01:15:42] Just keep reading is the lesson I've learned.

[01:15:45] When it comes to the number of dragon legs and limbs, Tolkien himself had some trouble with

[01:15:50] smog.

[01:15:50] There are at least two examples of him drawing smog with four legs plus two wings.

[01:15:55] However, he also called smog a worm, W-Y-R-M.

[01:16:00] And this confused readers somewhat as the term made them think of wyverns, which had two

[01:16:06] back legs and two claws like hands, one each on the front of their wings.

[01:16:12] This confusion probably lies in the fact that the worm is the old English word for worm, serpent,

[01:16:19] dragon.

[01:16:20] And yeah, this is also George R.R.

[01:16:22] Martin goes into this as well on his blog post.

[01:16:25] And this is why he's very passionate about my dragons are worms or wyverns.

[01:16:31] They have two legs.

[01:16:32] Yeah.

[01:16:34] Marilyn continues, two more non-dragon related observations.

[01:16:37] Firstly, the word daemon is an archaic spelling for the term demon.

[01:16:40] Ah, see, I made that joke earlier.

[01:16:42] Apt, don't you think?

[01:16:43] Particularly given his lengthy stay at Harrenhal.

[01:16:45] Also, you touched briefly on the possible peaceable roles of women in high places in those types

[01:16:51] of cultures.

[01:16:51] There was a lovely Anglo-Saxon term, peace weaver, which was an analog for women.

[01:16:58] Oftentimes, the women from one side of a conflict would be offered in marriage to a leader on

[01:17:02] the other side of the conflict in order to create kinship bonds between the two groups

[01:17:07] and thus provide possible encouragement for keeping the peace.

[01:17:10] We can see just how well that's working among the Valyrians.

[01:17:14] Frankly, I think it's asking a lot of the women, particularly when you consider that it is

[01:17:18] usually not they who are suiting up and marching off to war, at least in our Western cultures

[01:17:24] historically.

[01:17:25] All the best, Marilyn.

[01:17:28] Always lovely to hear from Marilyn because she doesn't even watch the show and yet she

[01:17:32] has all these lore drops about it.

[01:17:34] Yeah.

[01:17:35] Well, Marilyn, I think, so you might be interested in George R. R. Martin's blog.

[01:17:40] Um, it just, it's on his website and it's just called not a blog because yeah, you are touching

[01:17:45] on a lot of the same.

[01:17:45] It gets obnoxious.

[01:17:46] I'm sorry.

[01:17:47] Go on.

[01:17:48] Um, it's, uh, yeah.

[01:17:50] The first part of what you're saying here is, is overlapping with, with him.

[01:17:54] And I think you and George R. R. Martin would, I would love to be a fly on the wall watching

[01:17:58] the two of you have a conversation about this stuff.

[01:18:01] Yeah.

[01:18:02] Yeah.

[01:18:02] It's a, it's Martin mood.

[01:18:03] It's Marilyn Martin mood.

[01:18:04] Yeah.

[01:18:05] Oh, that would be awesome.

[01:18:07] Um, yeah, but I love those, the points about, yeah, the peace weaver basically marrying

[01:18:13] off brides.

[01:18:14] It's definitely something that it was brought up at this episode in terms of Alison, but

[01:18:19] knowing the gray joys.

[01:18:22] Yeah.

[01:18:23] They are not peace.

[01:18:25] They're not great partners.

[01:18:27] Let's say.

[01:18:28] Yeah.

[01:18:28] Salt wives.

[01:18:29] Anyone?

[01:18:30] I mean, come on.

[01:18:32] All right.

[01:18:33] Let's do a quick, um, programming note here.

[01:18:37] We have a, that's the end of our feedback.

[01:18:40] And thank you everyone for writing in hot D at the lorehounds.com.

[01:18:43] You can go to the lorehounds.com slash contact.

[01:18:45] You can tag Nancy two kids, two dogs on the, um, on the discord server, or, uh, maybe if

[01:18:52] you just say something interesting enough, she'll just pick it up anyway.

[01:18:55] So, uh, beware, beware.

[01:18:57] That's a hazard of being on discord.

[01:19:00] All right.

[01:19:01] You can find all those links in the show notes, but for now, let's talk about what's coming

[01:19:04] up next on the lorehounds network.

[01:19:06] Of course we have, um, for the lorehounds feed, we have the acolyte season one wrap up

[01:19:11] is about to come out.

[01:19:12] Yeah.

[01:19:13] We have a, and that was a lot of fun by the way.

[01:19:16] Yeah.

[01:19:16] Yeah.

[01:19:16] That was a lot of fun.

[01:19:17] Uh, yeah.

[01:19:18] It was, it's more, I mean, we talk about the acolyte.

[01:19:20] Uh, we just, we do a summary of the acolyte and we have some deep, serious conversations,

[01:19:25] but there's also a lot of laughing around that.

[01:19:27] And we found the David whisperer.

[01:19:31] Who is it?

[01:19:34] Spoilers.

[01:19:36] All right.

[01:19:37] Um, then we have a second breakfast is also driving this week for Patreon and supercast

[01:19:42] subscribers, which by the way, you have just a few days until August 1st, when we will be

[01:19:48] getting rid of the $3 tier for new signups.

[01:19:52] It will be grandfathered in anyone who's in there before then we'll still have the $3 tier

[01:19:56] forever as long as they remain subscribed.

[01:19:59] So definitely go to Patreon and supercast in the show notes, in the link tree, if you want

[01:20:05] to sign up and get, take advantage of that deal.

[01:20:08] Um, then next week we have plenty more coming.

[01:20:12] We have, um, what do we have coming Alicia?

[01:20:16] I forgot.

[01:20:17] You have Deadpool and Wolverine.

[01:20:19] Yes.

[01:20:19] Yes.

[01:20:20] Which you're, which you're participating in as well.

[01:20:22] Yeah.

[01:20:23] Yeah.

[01:20:23] Um, I can tell you on the star Wars Canon timeline podcast, we're have, uh, at the

[01:20:28] end of next week.

[01:20:30] Uh, there's going to be a Canon myths of the old Republic with Marilyn talking about

[01:20:36] Sith stories and other stuff.

[01:20:38] And I accidentally made her, I reread one of the stories was like, Ooh, this is kind

[01:20:41] of violent.

[01:20:41] I'm sorry.

[01:20:42] And she's like, I can skim.

[01:20:45] Uh, she'll be okay.

[01:20:47] She'll be okay.

[01:20:47] She reads my house to the dragon summaries.

[01:20:49] I think so.

[01:20:50] Yeah, true.

[01:20:50] She'll be all right.

[01:20:51] Um, also I just want to mention Marilyn while you, while she's on topic, um, bring some

[01:20:56] rituals just to their season one wrap up.

[01:20:58] So if you want to hear all your feedback, be answered, check out the rings of rituals

[01:21:02] feed, please go.

[01:21:03] It is an amazing podcast.

[01:21:04] Go support it.

[01:21:05] Oh, and, uh, yeah.

[01:21:06] Coming out, uh, at the end of this week is on the wall shift us book club is the third

[01:21:11] shift.

[01:21:13] Yep.

[01:21:13] Okay, cool.

[01:21:14] All right.

[01:21:15] Well, everyone, this has been a blast.

[01:21:18] Let's do our quick.

[01:21:19] Thank yous.

[01:21:22] All right.

[01:21:24] Our discord server boosters.

[01:21:26] Yeah.

[01:21:28] Yeah.

[01:21:28] Our gnarles.

[01:21:29] Erin K.

[01:21:30] Tiller the Thriller.

[01:21:31] Dork of the Ninjas.

[01:21:33] Doove 71.

[01:21:35] Captain Gingy 56.

[01:21:37] And Athena.

[01:21:38] Ah, Jalea.

[01:21:39] Thank you to our lore masters.

[01:21:41] We're going to try to pick this up.

[01:21:43] Samarshan Michael G.

[01:21:44] Michelle E.

[01:21:45] David W.

[01:21:46] Brian P.

[01:21:47] SC.

[01:21:48] Peter O.

[01:21:48] H.

[01:21:49] Bettina W.

[01:21:50] Adam S.

[01:21:50] Nancy M.

[01:21:51] Doove 71.

[01:21:53] Brian 80 63.

[01:21:54] Frederick H.

[01:21:55] Sarah L.

[01:21:56] Gareth C.

[01:21:57] Eric F.

[01:21:58] Matthew M.

[01:21:59] Sarah M.

[01:22:01] DJ Miwa.

[01:22:02] Andra B.

[01:22:03] Kwong Yu.

[01:22:04] Dead Eye Jedi Bob.

[01:22:05] Nathan T.

[01:22:06] Alex V.

[01:22:07] Erin T.

[01:22:08] Sub Zero.

[01:22:09] Erin K.

[01:22:10] Dali Fee.

[01:22:11] Mothership 61.

[01:22:13] Narls.

[01:22:14] Kathy W.

[01:22:15] Stuart B.

[01:22:16] Jeffrey B.

[01:22:17] Elisa Yu.

[01:22:19] And Adrienne.

[01:22:20] Always last.

[01:22:22] Yeah.

[01:22:23] Yeah.

[01:22:25] Do.

[01:22:26] Do.

[01:22:27] Okay.

[01:22:27] All right.

[01:22:28] That's enough now.

[01:22:30] All right.

[01:22:31] Thanks, everyone.

[01:22:32] This has been fun.

[01:22:33] Thank you, Alicia, for subbing in for David.

[01:22:35] And I hope you'll be back on the pod on the hot tea cupboard soon.

[01:22:38] Yeah.

[01:22:39] Glad to get to talk about this show.

[01:22:42] All right.

[01:22:43] Bye.

[01:22:44] Bye.

[01:22:44] The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds.

[01:22:48] You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact.

[01:22:53] Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds.

[01:22:59] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities.

[01:23:04] Thanks for listening.