Joker: Folie à Deux (2024) + Joker vs. Madcap – DCUniverse vs. MCUniverse

Jean and Elysia are on the mics for their first 'Versus match-up, pitting Joker from DC comics head to head against Madcap from Marvel (00:37:00) – which insane clown that definitely can't keep a posse will come out on top? Or, with these two characters, will it all go awry?

But first they talk about the second Todd Phillips Joker movie, Joker: Folie à Deux – is the hate overhyped? What's the good, the bad, and the ugly of this film? And how well does this film portray the iconic comic book character, as laid out by Jean? (Spoilers start at 00:20:42.)

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[00:00:17] Welcome to Comics vs. A Lorehounds Podcast. I'm Alicia.

[00:00:21] And I'm Jean. And we're here to finally, finally get into our thoughts on The Joker 2, whether we loved it, hated it, or something else. But we've also got something else planned for today.

[00:00:33] Da-dum, da-dum!

[00:00:36] Da-da-da-da! We'll do a quick spoiler-free hot takes on Joker 2, but then, after a warning, we're unleashing all the spoilers for that film, its predecessor, and Marvel and DC Comics as a whole. And other Marvel and DC film shows and stories might come up as well.

[00:00:51] But we're going to keep discussion on the film light overall, because our main mission today is our first versus matchup.

[00:01:00] Woohoo!

[00:01:00] I'm going to talk about what the Joker is really like in the comics, his backstories, allies, enemies, etc.

[00:01:08] Then I'm going to talk about the Marvel character who reminds me most of the Joker, Madcap. Madcap's a Marvel character a lot of you probably haven't heard of, but he's weird and complex, which is my favorite kind of character.

[00:01:20] Then we're going to pick those two characters head-to-head and talk about who would win in this fight of fights.

[00:01:28] Ding, ding!

[00:01:31] Yeah, so we had quite the discussion about who we were going to pair up with the Joker.

[00:01:37] And ultimately, since I was representing the Marvel side, I tipped the balance toward Madcap.

[00:01:42] But it was almost going to be Green Goblin.

[00:01:44] Almost!

[00:01:45] I almost snuck in Gobby there.

[00:01:47] I almost got him.

[00:01:48] I'm sorry, but it's okay.

[00:01:49] This is your choice.

[00:01:50] And again, these are our choices.

[00:01:53] Mm-hmm.

[00:01:54] Things that we see.

[00:01:56] You may not agree, but it's okay.

[00:01:59] I would love to hear why you disagree and why you might agree.

[00:02:04] Yeah.

[00:02:05] Okay.

[00:02:05] So obviously I'm going to get into why I think Madcap was the way to go for me personally.

[00:02:10] But if you want to lay out quickly for people, why Green Goblin?

[00:02:16] Why did you think that that was the best one?

[00:02:18] Because I thought Gobby is in the same way Joker opposes Batman, he opposes Spider-Man.

[00:02:28] Mm-hmm.

[00:02:29] So those are the rogue of rogues for each one of those titular superheroes.

[00:02:35] Right.

[00:02:36] So that was my thinking of why we should go with Green Goblin just because the-

[00:02:40] I guess he has the tricks and stuff.

[00:02:42] Yeah.

[00:02:42] And he does, you know, he's also insane, just like Joker.

[00:02:48] Mm-hmm.

[00:02:48] But mainly I thought it was, you know, in my mind that the opposition, you know, this is

[00:02:55] my nemesis.

[00:02:57] This is my arch nemesis.

[00:02:59] And I felt like those two would carry the day for those two characters.

[00:03:04] And again, the insanity.

[00:03:06] Yeah.

[00:03:07] You can't get away from the insanity.

[00:03:09] I mean, Madcap's insane.

[00:03:10] And I guess he would be the foil for Deadpool most of all.

[00:03:14] But anyway, we'll get into all that because first we're going to talk about a completely

[00:03:18] different type of Joker.

[00:03:23] Who some might say is insane as well.

[00:03:25] Yeah.

[00:03:25] I mean, sure.

[00:03:27] In a different way.

[00:03:30] Emphasis on different.

[00:03:32] But, okay.

[00:03:33] So we have both finally seen and we're finally going to talk about Joker, Folly a Deux, the

[00:03:40] 2024 movie.

[00:03:42] It was directed by Todd Phillips, same one who directed the first one.

[00:03:45] He also directed movies like Road Trip, Old School, Starsky and Hutch, The Hangover.

[00:03:50] So, yeah.

[00:03:52] Joker, the 2019 one was quite the change of pace and change of tone for him, wasn't it?

[00:03:58] Yeah, it was.

[00:03:59] It was.

[00:04:00] I thought the movie was, I enjoyed it.

[00:04:03] I didn't think it was groundbreaking in the way that many other people thought it was groundbreaking.

[00:04:10] I thought it was perfectly cool.

[00:04:12] It was fine.

[00:04:13] Yeah.

[00:04:14] But I'll be honest with you.

[00:04:16] It's not something that I've watched repeatedly.

[00:04:20] Yeah.

[00:04:20] No, I only saw it the once to be honest.

[00:04:23] I was thinking about that the other day because, you know, I'm on my 50,001 rewatch of The Batman.

[00:04:32] Mm-hmm.

[00:04:33] And I can count the amount of times on my hand that I've watched The Joker.

[00:04:38] Yeah.

[00:04:39] Yeah.

[00:04:39] Okay.

[00:04:40] Well, yeah.

[00:04:41] So I thought that the writing was good.

[00:04:44] I thought it was qualitatively a good film.

[00:04:46] Um, I thought that it was well acted.

[00:04:49] Uh, it wasn't, I definitely was not upset when it got all those Oscar nominations.

[00:04:53] I was like, no, that's cool.

[00:04:55] Like respects for a comic book movie.

[00:04:56] But for me, it did feel like a bit naive about human psychology, just a bit too overly cynical.

[00:05:06] Um, and if their intention was to say this was simply his perception, they weren't conveying that.

[00:05:13] And so it just felt like unrealistic that I think it just could have been a much more interesting movie with more layers added.

[00:05:21] Um, so it was just kind of relentlessly grim in a way that I don't think.

[00:05:28] Was helpful.

[00:05:29] I don't, I just, for me, it just always comes back to the story and, and the character development.

[00:05:33] And for me, it just fell flat.

[00:05:37] And yeah, that's fair.

[00:05:40] And you know, uh, there's a lot of discussion about the message it sends.

[00:05:44] I didn't think that it sent the, you know, violence is good message, but people definitely misunderstood it.

[00:05:52] And I think it did send like a cynical, like, uh, you will, everyone's out to get you a message.

[00:05:57] Uh, and that's a bummer.

[00:05:59] I, so it's not a film I really want to ever rewatch, but I was like, yay for the Oscar.

[00:06:04] Have you rewatched it?

[00:06:06] Nope.

[00:06:07] Okay.

[00:06:08] Okay.

[00:06:08] Yeah.

[00:06:09] Yeah.

[00:06:10] So it was written by Todd Phillips and Scott Silver, Todd Phillips being the director again.

[00:06:14] Uh, and Scott Silver is known for writing, um, films like eight mile, the mod squad.

[00:06:19] Uh, he had a previous screenplay nod for the fighter.

[00:06:23] So this, that film was definitely more in his wheelhouse.

[00:06:27] Of course, the first was starring Joaquin Phoenix and then Lady Gaga joined for the second film as a version of Harley Quinn.

[00:06:37] We'll get into that.

[00:06:37] And, um, who else was in the second film?

[00:06:41] So we have Zazie Beetz, Leah Gill, um, Brendan Gleeson, Catherine Keener, Steve Coogan and Harry Lordy.

[00:06:50] Um, yeah, I was glad to see Zazie Beetz and Lee Gill back because so Zazie Beetz was the girl he was harassing and legal was the colleague who was kind of his only friends.

[00:07:02] But then, you know, he crossed, he crossed all those lines, the lines, crossed the lines.

[00:07:07] Yeah.

[00:07:08] And apparently Warner brothers intended this to launch as a DC black film series, but ultimately it just became this standalone duology.

[00:07:16] She, like they had plans.

[00:07:18] It sounds like they have plans for other things, but then I think they decided to put their elseworld eggs in the, um, Reeves basket.

[00:07:27] I think, um, yeah, I, you know, it's, this is the thing, this movie, the way that I'm talking about, um, two, not one, um, the way that it was presented took everyone as a shock.

[00:07:44] Mm-hmm.

[00:07:45] Um, announcing that it's going to be a musical and, and I think that played a role into how people went into the movie, the expectations for it.

[00:07:58] Mm-hmm.

[00:07:59] Yeah.

[00:08:00] I mean, I, that got me really excited when I heard about that part, like when I first heard it was going to be a sequel.

[00:08:06] Cause the first one, like I thought it was qualitatively good.

[00:08:09] I thought it was well-written and acted, but, um, I just thought it was kind of naive about human psychology in ways, kind of shallow in a way.

[00:08:17] Like it was just like everybody bad.

[00:08:19] And frankly, it didn't ring true because of that.

[00:08:23] Like it could have been more about, for example, that his perception of the world.

[00:08:28] And I think that that was a stumbling block for the second too, is they weren't always great at conveying like which of these musical moments are really happening, which are his perception.

[00:08:38] I guess the point is for it to blend, but it didn't.

[00:08:42] Um, I don't know.

[00:08:44] And the first one, it was just so, it was just like, so pessimistic that I don't love films like that because I think that doesn't do humanity any good basically for us to think worse of each other that only, you know, creates this downward spiral of making things worse.

[00:09:03] Um, so when people say it sent the wrong message, they, I don't think that it lionized Arthur.

[00:09:11] I always want to call him Arthur dent, but that's hitchhiker's guide.

[00:09:16] Um, Arthur Fleck.

[00:09:17] I don't think it lionized him.

[00:09:19] I think it, um, but it just sent the wrong message in the way of this like pessimism.

[00:09:25] So I, it's not a film I ever want to rewatch.

[00:09:28] It's not a film I ever have rewatched, but I wasn't mad about it getting Oscar nominations, especially.

[00:09:34] Right.

[00:09:34] You know, representing comic book movies and this sort of storytelling.

[00:09:39] Um, but I was excited.

[00:09:41] I was not excited to hear about the sequel.

[00:09:43] I was excited to hear lady Gaga, who I love from American horror story and from a star is born.

[00:09:51] And I was excited to hear it.

[00:09:52] Yeah.

[00:09:53] That it was be a musical.

[00:09:54] I thought like, okay, this, they're going to do something interesting with this.

[00:09:57] And they kind of did.

[00:09:59] I felt much the same way when, you know, it was announced a musical.

[00:10:04] And then I heard it was Gaga and I was just like, all right, cool.

[00:10:08] Yeah.

[00:10:09] She really can sing her ass off.

[00:10:10] So yeah, let's, uh, I can rock with this.

[00:10:13] You know what I mean?

[00:10:14] Um, so I went into it, you know, open-minded.

[00:10:19] Um, yeah, but it is what it is.

[00:10:22] Yeah.

[00:10:23] So just to come for comparison sake, the first film grossed more than a billion worldwide.

[00:10:29] It grows like 1 billion and 79 million.

[00:10:33] Um, so that makes it the second highest, uh, highest grossing R rated film of all time

[00:10:39] after only Deadpool and Wolverine that came out this year.

[00:10:42] So these are the only two R rated films that ever made more than a billion.

[00:10:46] And they're both comic book movies, comic book properties.

[00:10:49] Yeah.

[00:10:50] And the budget on the first one was only like 55 to 70 million.

[00:10:54] So the second one, I guess, because of the musical elements, the budget, uh, ballooned

[00:11:01] to like 200 million and then they barely made that money back.

[00:11:04] And that's not including the stuff they don't report in the budget, like marketing stuff.

[00:11:09] And so variety estimates that the second one lost about 150 million.

[00:11:14] So, um, but to be fair, like, you know, just because of bombs doesn't mean it's a bad movie

[00:11:23] that happened to blue beetle and it wasn't fair.

[00:11:25] And blue beetle rocks blue beetles.

[00:11:27] Good.

[00:11:28] Watch blue beetle.

[00:11:29] Yes, please.

[00:11:30] Instead of this.

[00:11:31] No, I'm just kidding.

[00:11:33] Watch what you want.

[00:11:36] Um, but also, yeah, the first one, the first one, the first one, the first one,

[00:11:39] the first one got really pretty high reviews, like 68%, uh, 84%, B plus 7.3, depending on

[00:11:46] where you're looking.

[00:11:47] Um, although it was nominated for 11 Oscars, which in retrospect is a lot because especially

[00:11:56] with those are not the highest ratings, you know?

[00:12:00] So, uh, but it's was nominated also for best picture and it won two of the Oscars for best

[00:12:07] actor for Joaquin Phoenix and best original score for Hildur.

[00:12:12] Good.

[00:12:13] Good.

[00:12:16] I can do that.

[00:12:17] I said it.

[00:12:18] Um, yeah.

[00:12:20] Yeah.

[00:12:20] And then the second one, I think they were like, Oh, we are an awards movie, you know?

[00:12:26] So there, they decided to open the second one at the Venice film festival in September

[00:12:33] rather than, you know, a more commercial opening.

[00:12:36] And I think they shot themselves in the foot because it did not please that crowd.

[00:12:41] And that put out bad word of mouth.

[00:12:44] Hmm.

[00:12:45] That makes sense.

[00:12:46] That makes sense.

[00:12:47] The art house crowd was done into it, not into it.

[00:12:50] And, um, the, yeah, they overall, the reviews were much lower, like 32%, 4.9 D, you know,

[00:12:59] and run tomatoes, their summaries, Joaquin Phoenix's eponymous Joker takes the stand in a

[00:13:05] sequel that dances around while the story remains still.

[00:13:08] Although Lady Gaga's wild card energy gives folia to some verve.

[00:13:13] So that's kind of how I feel about it.

[00:13:16] That's tough.

[00:13:17] Yeah.

[00:13:18] What about you?

[00:13:19] What are your, we're still in the spoiler free section.

[00:13:21] What are your spoiler free thoughts on Joker folia?

[00:13:25] Yeah, I didn't, it's not that I hated the movie.

[00:13:28] Um, but again, this is not something that I'll, I will rewatch, you know, I'm not going to

[00:13:37] watch the movie, but it's not something that I would say that I hate.

[00:13:43] I saw it and I saw it once and that's good enough.

[00:13:46] There are things that, you know, I will absolutely fight tooth and nail to never be seen on any screen

[00:13:54] again.

[00:13:54] Like that show that we don't talk about, we don't name it that aired on Disney plus,

[00:14:01] um, that one.

[00:14:02] But I don't think this falls into that category for me.

[00:14:06] Yeah.

[00:14:06] So yeah.

[00:14:08] If, if someone were to say, Oh, should I go see it?

[00:14:10] Should I see it?

[00:14:11] Should I watch it?

[00:14:12] It's on TV.

[00:14:12] I was like, yeah, go ahead and give it a shot because you might enjoy the musical numbers.

[00:14:16] Yeah.

[00:14:17] Yeah.

[00:14:18] I mean, it's also now that it's out on streaming, you can just put it on at home.

[00:14:23] Yeah.

[00:14:24] And yeah, I guess, you know, people talk about, there's a lot of backlash about it, quote unquote,

[00:14:28] subverting the hero, her heroizing of Arthur.

[00:14:33] Um, but I don't know.

[00:14:35] I, I don't necessarily, I guess they did that a little bit, but I didn't think that he

[00:14:40] was a hero the first time.

[00:14:41] No, neither did I.

[00:14:42] But it's kind of, it's funny how it parallels the Dune series in that, you know, how people

[00:14:47] are always think Paul Atreides is a Messiah figure.

[00:14:50] And then.

[00:14:52] Yeah.

[00:14:54] And Frank Herbert's like, wait a minute, wait a minute.

[00:14:57] Let's make this clear.

[00:15:01] But yeah, I, I, overall, I saw what they were going for and there are moments where it

[00:15:04] felt like they grasped it.

[00:15:06] Um, especially the stuff around, around the character of Lee.

[00:15:11] Um, but it was a, I think, um, I think that the songs, like I said, should have been worked

[00:15:17] in more smoothly, um, to use them better, to make this point about the psychological shared

[00:15:23] madness of the two in the title, you know?

[00:15:25] Right.

[00:15:26] And I was, I have to admit.

[00:15:29] So you talked previously when we talked about, um, this like iteration of Joker, you

[00:15:34] know, it's just not the Joker because he's missing some fundamental things about his story.

[00:15:39] And obviously we're going to be talking about that, uh, what his story should be quote unquote.

[00:15:45] Um, but for me, I understood that intellectually, but then when I watched this film and they touched

[00:15:51] my Harley, that's when I really got it.

[00:15:55] Ah, okay.

[00:15:56] It's like, no, but this is wrong.

[00:15:57] This is just a different character.

[00:15:59] Okay.

[00:16:00] Okay.

[00:16:01] The comic book nerd came out.

[00:16:03] I just, I just had to care more about the character.

[00:16:06] Um, but we eventually, we got a nod to some of her real backstory later, but, and there was an interesting new character that came out of it, but you know, it's like, okay, I'm glad they're calling her Lee because I just have to divorce.

[00:16:19] Other than, yeah.

[00:16:22] Sometimes she wore a cute dress with, you know, Harlequin print, but that's about it.

[00:16:27] But I think every other character other than her was paper thin and Arthur arguably among them.

[00:16:34] Yeah.

[00:16:35] I didn't, you know, the thing is I, I didn't need more character development for author.

[00:16:40] I didn't need more character development for some of the side characters.

[00:16:44] I think the only person that I needed more from was Lee.

[00:16:49] Yeah.

[00:16:50] Okay.

[00:16:51] Okay.

[00:16:52] Okay.

[00:16:52] For me, I was the opposite.

[00:16:53] Okay.

[00:16:54] Um, but I, yeah, I thought that the overall, I, it felt like they were holding Gaga back in the singing department.

[00:17:02] Oh yeah, definitely.

[00:17:03] Although.

[00:17:04] Yeah.

[00:17:04] Because Joaquin can't sing.

[00:17:06] Well, there was one song where he did a really good job and I was, it was a really pleasant surprise.

[00:17:10] Really?

[00:17:12] Mm-hmm.

[00:17:13] But what did you think of the songs in general?

[00:17:15] They were fine.

[00:17:16] They were, they were show tuning.

[00:17:18] They were fine.

[00:17:19] Um, it was a jukebox musical.

[00:17:22] So they're kind of like, yeah, they were like basic though.

[00:17:25] Yeah.

[00:17:25] It was, there's obviously there was no song in the movie that was worthy of being talked about because none of the, no one's talking about any of the songs.

[00:17:36] That's true.

[00:17:37] And so if there was a hit, especially with Gaga singing, then, you know, we would know of it, but there wasn't.

[00:17:45] So the songs were, they were meh, they were okay.

[00:17:48] Yeah.

[00:17:48] But Gaga like really lifted a lot of, did the heavy lifting, like you said, with the singing.

[00:17:56] Mm-hmm.

[00:17:57] And yeah, thank God for that because.

[00:17:59] Yeah.

[00:18:00] Yeah.

[00:18:02] Yeah.

[00:18:02] I mean, I just, the musical moments, I wish that they had like more purposeful transitions and yeah, I think that would have helped a lot.

[00:18:12] Um, I, I found it overall kind of more interesting than the first personally, just, and that just has to do with my interest for sure, but less, less cohesive.

[00:18:22] And then in the end it was just as depressingly cynical.

[00:18:25] So I'm like, what?

[00:18:26] Right.

[00:18:27] Okay.

[00:18:29] So verdict people who haven't seen it yet, should they, what, who would you recommend this to?

[00:18:40] Oh, Oh, I would recommend this.

[00:18:46] If you are, if there's nothing on, you're having a day chilling.

[00:18:56] You turn on the TV.

[00:18:59] This is showing.

[00:19:00] It could be background.

[00:19:03] Mm-hmm.

[00:19:04] It can be background.

[00:19:07] This is not something that I would mark in my calendar or tell you, the listener to mark in their calendar to sit down at 8 PM on a Sunday evening or Saturday night and get a box of popcorn to watch.

[00:19:25] Yeah.

[00:19:26] If you turn it on, you turn it on.

[00:19:27] Yeah.

[00:19:27] If you don't, you haven't missed in my opinion.

[00:19:32] Yeah.

[00:19:34] Yes.

[00:19:35] No.

[00:19:35] I mean, I, I agree with that.

[00:19:37] I mean, I think I would recommend it most of all to the completionists, you know?

[00:19:41] Yeah, I guess too.

[00:19:42] But even then that's what did it complete really.

[00:19:47] The flex story.

[00:19:48] You know what I mean?

[00:19:49] And, and how, yeah, I wouldn't even recommend, I think not because his story was not, I didn't, I didn't like his story for him.

[00:20:03] Hmm.

[00:20:06] Okay.

[00:20:07] All right.

[00:20:07] Well, we're going to get into our, we're going to rip off the spoiler bandaid and we're going to start with a quick plot summary right after a quick break.

[00:20:16] So if you don't want to hear spoilers, jump ahead to our versus episode.

[00:20:21] I will have the timestamp marked in the notes.

[00:20:24] Okay.

[00:20:24] See you there or see you after for our spoilery discussion of Joker to fully.

[00:20:31] All right.

[00:20:50] Let's give the people a plot summary.

[00:20:52] Do you want to read the text in blue and I'll read the text in green?

[00:20:55] Sure.

[00:20:56] So Arthur Fleck is in custody at Arkham State Hospital awaiting trial for the crimes he committed two years prior during the plot of the first film.

[00:21:04] His lawyer plans to argue that Arthur suffers from disassociative identity disorder and that his Joker personality is responsible for the crimes.

[00:21:13] At a music therapy session, Arthur meets Harleen Lee Quinzel, who claims that she grew up in the same neighborhood as he did, had an abusive father who died in a car crash and was in prison after burning down her parents' apartment building.

[00:21:27] Lee also expresses her admiration for the Joker's crimes and personality.

[00:21:31] She tries to help him escape from jail, but they are caught and he winds up in solitary confinement.

[00:21:37] And Lee checks herself out of the facility.

[00:21:39] Her backstory was a hoax to get closer to him.

[00:21:42] She actually has a background as a psychiatrist.

[00:21:45] Arthur's trial begins and Lee becomes his mouthpiece to the press, eating up every moment on camera.

[00:21:52] She tells the Joker she is pregnant and has moved into his old home.

[00:21:56] The pregnancy, at least, is also a fabrication.

[00:21:59] She wants him to be the Joker rather than Arthur Fleck.

[00:22:03] But in the end, he opts to represent himself in court as Arthur Fleck, cutting her and his lawyer in all their best intentions out and taking full responsibility for his actions.

[00:22:16] He is about to lose his case and likely to be sentenced to the death penalty when his fans bomb the courthouse, breaking him out.

[00:22:24] But he runs away and crumples, realizing he's lost Lee, that he never really had her.

[00:22:29] He's brought back to prison and the guard who has been his frenemy throughout the film leaves him to be shanked by another inmate.

[00:22:36] His life bleeding out on the floor as the young stabber gives himself a Glasgow smile.

[00:22:43] Okay.

[00:22:44] So now that we can talk full spoilers, any scenes you want to call out?

[00:22:50] Pros, cons, moments that you remember?

[00:22:54] No.

[00:22:55] No.

[00:22:55] There are no standout scenes for me.

[00:22:57] Mm-hmm.

[00:22:58] Even with the end where he's stabbed and this person gives himself the Joker smile, even that did not hit the way that I'm sure that the filmmakers intended it to hit for me.

[00:23:15] Yeah.

[00:23:16] Yeah.

[00:23:17] Yeah, there's nothing truly memorable for me in this film.

[00:23:20] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:21] I liked the animated opening.

[00:23:23] I thought it was a cool idea, but also like the musical.

[00:23:27] I didn't like it.

[00:23:27] Oh, really?

[00:23:28] For me, it just like didn't, it wasn't like slotted in well.

[00:23:31] It wasn't blended well into the rest of the film.

[00:23:34] Yeah.

[00:23:34] That's why I didn't like it.

[00:23:35] It didn't fit.

[00:23:36] Yeah.

[00:23:36] I wish they had looked at like how they handled black noir and the boys.

[00:23:42] Oh.

[00:23:42] That would have been a better.

[00:23:44] That is, oh yeah.

[00:23:45] I didn't even think about that.

[00:23:46] That's, that's, yeah, you're on point with that one.

[00:23:50] But okay.

[00:23:51] So what I liked about the Lee character is that, I mean, she, she was not like, she was

[00:23:58] not Harley Quinn at all.

[00:23:59] So we're just going to color Lee, but she seemed to love the limelight more than him.

[00:24:03] Um, it was just, it was a very interesting characterization that she was, you know, he was so desperate.

[00:24:10] I, again, though, it's just another, like everybody's mean to poor Arthur, not a single crime person in the world.

[00:24:18] Um, yeah, I don't know.

[00:24:21] Do you think that there was a tragic redemption arc?

[00:24:26] No, no, no, no.

[00:24:29] You didn't feel bad for him in the end?

[00:24:31] No, absolutely not.

[00:24:32] No, I mean neither, to be honest.

[00:24:33] I did not.

[00:24:33] But what do you think the film wants us to feel about him?

[00:24:36] I have no idea.

[00:24:37] I think, I think, um, it probably does want us to feel bad and to reflect about the hard

[00:24:45] life that Arthur had that led him to the points, the low points that he visited, but nothing

[00:24:55] felt earned.

[00:24:58] Yeah.

[00:24:59] There was no, no, the only, the only part that might have swayed, the only thing that

[00:25:10] felt maybe he could have been, it could have been earned was when he's facing Zazie Beetz

[00:25:17] in court.

[00:25:18] Mm-hmm.

[00:25:19] And she's hearing her describe.

[00:25:22] And his friend too, yeah.

[00:25:23] Right.

[00:25:23] Describe the, the other terror she felt by his presence.

[00:25:29] Right.

[00:25:30] In her life.

[00:25:31] Well, that's, that's when he decided to say he was guilty, right?

[00:25:35] Yes.

[00:25:36] But again, that was just not, I don't, I don't know if that's enough for me to say, oh,

[00:25:46] okay, he learned his lesson here.

[00:25:48] Yeah.

[00:25:50] I, I, I just don't believe it.

[00:25:52] Yeah.

[00:25:53] I don't believe it because I've, you know, the, the, the, it, the way that he basically

[00:26:03] stalked her.

[00:26:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:26:05] Right.

[00:26:05] And he's hearing about the stalking.

[00:26:09] Why at this moment in time would a light bulb go off in his head to, for him to be

[00:26:15] like, oh, I really fucked up.

[00:26:17] Mm-hmm.

[00:26:18] Mm-hmm.

[00:26:18] There was nothing preceding that to even give a glimmer of, of hope to see, to say that

[00:26:25] he would see how bad he was prior in film one.

[00:26:33] Mm-hmm.

[00:26:34] Nothing.

[00:26:35] Nothing that led up to that moment showed me any contrition or supposed contrition or

[00:26:42] any, you know, semblance of thought provoking thoughtfulness on his actions.

[00:26:49] So it didn't ring true to me that he's here at this point, you know, with an adoring fan base,

[00:26:59] right?

[00:27:01] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:02] And she's telling him how he terrorized her.

[00:27:06] In my mind, it's like, yeah, I terrorized you.

[00:27:10] Who do you think you are?

[00:27:12] Hmm.

[00:27:13] Because it just didn't, there was no point in the film that showed any sort of introspection

[00:27:20] on his part.

[00:27:21] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:22] So I didn't buy it.

[00:27:24] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:24] What did you think of the jokes that, you know, there's this ongoing thing about him telling

[00:27:29] jokes that...

[00:27:31] No.

[00:27:32] It didn't work for you either.

[00:27:33] No.

[00:27:34] It didn't work.

[00:27:35] But you said you did like the, you did like Gleason's character, the guard.

[00:27:39] I did.

[00:27:40] And the thing, I also didn't need more from him because he, I understood who and what he

[00:27:47] was.

[00:27:48] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:49] Right?

[00:27:49] And that was very clear in this movie of full of confusion for me.

[00:27:53] Like I knew where Gleason stood.

[00:27:56] I knew where this, this, you know, corrections officer, where he was coming from.

[00:28:00] I understood he's a sadist and he's, you know...

[00:28:04] Yeah.

[00:28:04] He strangled Arthur's friend.

[00:28:06] Yeah.

[00:28:07] Yeah.

[00:28:07] For sticking up for him.

[00:28:08] He was a bad dude.

[00:28:09] A power, you know, mad person with a badge and a uniform who thinks he can do whatever

[00:28:17] he wants to do to the people in his charge.

[00:28:20] I got that.

[00:28:22] And I thought Gleason portrayed that very well.

[00:28:25] Like, I'll be your friend today, but you say the wrong thing or you just look at me

[00:28:31] the wrong way and with a snap of my fingers, that friendship is gone.

[00:28:36] You know what I mean?

[00:28:36] Mm-hmm.

[00:28:37] This give and take, give and take relationship where, you know, he tries to soothe you, but

[00:28:41] also gives you the back of his hand to let you know your place.

[00:28:47] Mm-hmm.

[00:28:47] So I really thought that was well done and it was, you know, shown very, very well by Gleason's

[00:28:55] acting and just by the interactions that he had with Arthur Fleck.

[00:28:59] Yeah.

[00:29:01] Um, you know what?

[00:29:02] I didn't even realize until afterward that the other lawyer was Harvey Dent.

[00:29:07] I guess they probably said that at some point.

[00:29:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:29:09] They did say it.

[00:29:10] Yeah.

[00:29:11] But it just, again, it was just like, okay, sure, if you say so.

[00:29:14] It didn't land.

[00:29:15] It didn't land.

[00:29:16] But then it was also when the bombing happened, apparently half of his face was hurt.

[00:29:19] I was like, oh, okay.

[00:29:20] Yes.

[00:29:21] If I had caught the name, I would have caught that.

[00:29:23] Yeah.

[00:29:24] And I think also the movie suffered from gun already saying this is not part of the greater

[00:29:36] DCU.

[00:29:37] I think it had the same problems that I had with the first one, but then it added new

[00:29:42] ones because it tried to take on this new dimension and didn't incorporate it well.

[00:29:47] No, I know.

[00:29:48] But that's what I'm saying.

[00:29:49] I think this new dimensions were partly because they were just like, fuck it.

[00:29:54] We can do whatever the hell we want to do.

[00:29:56] You know what I mean?

[00:29:57] I'm still not mad at them for doing that because I do think I might, I'm more likely

[00:30:04] to rewatch the second one than the first one for sure.

[00:30:06] Okay.

[00:30:07] Okay.

[00:30:08] Why is that?

[00:30:10] Because it's got music and Lady Gaga playing Harley Quinn.

[00:30:16] You know, even bad pizzas, good pizza sometimes, you know?

[00:30:21] No, I get that.

[00:30:22] And I thought that was the best part of the film was Gaga singing.

[00:30:27] Mm-hmm.

[00:30:29] Yeah.

[00:30:29] I wish they had let her, you know, do it.

[00:30:31] Every time she's on screen and she's belting out a tune, it was great.

[00:30:36] Mm-hmm.

[00:30:38] Yeah.

[00:30:39] And I do have to say the, yeah, the courtroom, you already brought it up.

[00:30:42] But when Gary puddles, um, his former coworker and his neighbor, Sophie Dumond, when they show

[00:30:47] up in court and confront him, I think that was one of the moments where it worked the best

[00:30:53] like that.

[00:30:54] And the whole relationship that Lee had with the press and just like seeing that evolve.

[00:30:59] Those were the two parts of the work of the movie that really worked for me.

[00:31:03] And it felt like, like, um, Gary and Sophie coming to confront him in court.

[00:31:08] It felt to me, I've been watching so many iterations of a Christmas Carol right now because Luke

[00:31:13] and I are covering it on the little shift.

[00:31:17] It felt like a joker, a Christmas Carol, you know, where his past is coming back to confront

[00:31:24] him and try to make him be a better person.

[00:31:26] But then he dies.

[00:31:28] Yeah.

[00:31:29] But I don't know.

[00:31:30] I, I, I will humbly disagree with you on, on the, not to say that the scene wasn't

[00:31:37] good, but his redemption, his attempted redemption.

[00:31:42] Yeah.

[00:31:42] No, I, no.

[00:31:44] Yeah.

[00:31:44] Redemption arc didn't work for me.

[00:31:46] No.

[00:31:46] Right.

[00:31:47] The scene was good.

[00:31:48] The scene was good.

[00:31:49] Mm hmm.

[00:31:51] Um, so a lot of people online are asking whether the kid who kills him at the end by kid,

[00:31:58] I mean, I guess he was in his twenties.

[00:32:00] Um, he gave himself that Glasgow smile and people are wondering if in another world that

[00:32:05] would be the next joker.

[00:32:07] I mean, that's what it's implying.

[00:32:09] What would, what would you feel about that if they had done a third movie with the new

[00:32:14] joker like that?

[00:32:15] No, no, absolutely not.

[00:32:20] Absolutely not.

[00:32:21] Yeah.

[00:32:23] Like I said, once I touched my Harley, I completely understood what you were saying about the

[00:32:27] first film and joker.

[00:32:29] Um, it does feel like the IP was an excuse to get the movie funded rather than, you know,

[00:32:38] it was an attempt to really explore these two particular characters.

[00:32:44] I mean, I'm not surprised that, uh, Todd Phillips is exiting stage left with DC.

[00:32:52] You know, he's done so for DC.

[00:32:56] Yeah.

[00:32:56] I'm not surprised either.

[00:32:57] And, and, but the thing is again, just, it didn't hit.

[00:33:03] It didn't hit stabbing author carving in his face, laughing.

[00:33:09] None of that hit.

[00:33:10] So apparently though, gun and saffron, they did give notes and Todd Phillips is like, no,

[00:33:18] thank you.

[00:33:18] And just ignored them.

[00:33:20] So it's definitely not interference on their part.

[00:33:23] No, no, no, no.

[00:33:25] It's not the interference.

[00:33:26] I would have said no, thank you either, because you're already saying that this is not continuing

[00:33:30] and in a way that would, I would probably like it to continue.

[00:33:35] I'm sure Todd Phillips wanted to be included in the upcoming DC.

[00:33:43] I don't know.

[00:33:45] No, I think so.

[00:33:46] I think so.

[00:33:47] If you're telling a Joker story, then eventually you're going to incorporate a Joker story.

[00:33:54] You know what I'm saying?

[00:33:55] It's not just about.

[00:33:56] But it's so standalone.

[00:33:58] Like how would it mesh with anything else?

[00:34:00] Like, how could you bring Batman into that?

[00:34:02] I guess you could, but.

[00:34:03] You don't have to bring Patterson's Batman or you don't have to bring.

[00:34:07] No, I know.

[00:34:08] I know.

[00:34:08] The DCU Batman.

[00:34:10] Yeah.

[00:34:11] There's too many Jokers.

[00:34:14] So they didn't even do test screenings, which I think was, I mean, you know, so it's, it was very much like I am an artiste and no one else will understand my vision.

[00:34:25] And here it is.

[00:34:26] And then people are like, no, you're right.

[00:34:27] We don't understand.

[00:34:30] I mean, test screenings have their place.

[00:34:33] You know, I don't think you should just bow to the masses, but you should have a vision.

[00:34:38] But sometimes you need a little feedback.

[00:34:43] Well, anyway, on that note, this short branch of DC Elseworlds has fizzled out.

[00:34:48] True.

[00:34:51] I have to, and I have to say that, you know, I commend filmmakers for following their vision for, and I even commend filmmakers for doing something that is not standard.

[00:35:07] Right.

[00:35:08] Right.

[00:35:09] I love that.

[00:35:09] Mm hmm.

[00:35:11] This particular movie.

[00:35:13] Um, if you're going to make a musical.

[00:35:17] Me personally.

[00:35:18] Mm hmm.

[00:35:18] I want people who can sing in the musical.

[00:35:22] I thought he did a good job, to be honest.

[00:35:25] It's not like, like Russell Crowe was terrible in, um, Les Miserables.

[00:35:30] But this, I thought he actually did really good in that one song.

[00:35:34] Oh man.

[00:35:35] I mean.

[00:35:35] Okay.

[00:35:36] But talk a bit about what your, what you've told me before are your objections about this character, Arthur Fleck by Joaquin Phoenix and Todd Phillips about that character being called Joker.

[00:35:49] Cause he's not.

[00:35:50] Why is he not?

[00:35:52] Because he's not, there's nothing of his story that is from, you know, even remotely close to.

[00:36:00] The Joker that we have in, in comics.

[00:36:03] There's nothing in, in the source material.

[00:36:06] This Arthur Fleck person is not, he's not even a criminal really.

[00:36:14] Right.

[00:36:15] He's not, he's not, he's not a criminal and he doesn't have a, a nemesis.

[00:36:21] Like this, this is my biggest thing.

[00:36:24] I'm like, you know, you call yourself the Joker.

[00:36:26] Okay, cool.

[00:36:27] I want to see the Joker, but you know, give me the origin story.

[00:36:32] Right.

[00:36:33] Tell me why this guy is the Joker.

[00:36:37] And what's he, what's he doing out in Gotham?

[00:36:41] Mm hmm.

[00:36:41] What's he doing out in the world?

[00:36:44] Arthur Fleck was nothing.

[00:36:48] Didn't, it just, it was really, really strange to me that they would call this movie the Joker.

[00:36:57] So.

[00:36:57] They would call this character the Joker.

[00:36:59] Right.

[00:37:00] So let's, so set up for us.

[00:37:02] Um, let's start setting up our verses.

[00:37:05] What is, what is the Joker like in the comics?

[00:37:08] What is, give me the whole spiel about his origin story and all of his info.

[00:37:14] Well, here's the one thing I will say that the film, both films got right in the comics.

[00:37:25] Joker is insane.

[00:37:28] So they got that part, right?

[00:37:30] Right.

[00:37:31] They got that part, right.

[00:37:32] Um, in the comics, Joker starts operating at the same time that Batman appears.

[00:37:42] Right.

[00:37:43] So he's tied to Gotham city.

[00:37:44] Yeah.

[00:37:45] He's tied to Gotham.

[00:37:46] He's tied to, to Batman.

[00:37:47] Um, he was known as the red hood before.

[00:37:51] Oh, Marvel has one of those.

[00:37:54] Yeah, they do.

[00:37:55] Um, and you know, he was a criminal.

[00:38:00] Batman was chasing a criminal.

[00:38:02] This criminal fell into a vat of acid and came out something else.

[00:38:06] Mm hmm.

[00:38:08] That's pretty much what it is.

[00:38:11] The film had none of that.

[00:38:13] Yeah.

[00:38:14] He didn't, I don't need him to fall into a vat of acid, but the same Arthur Fleck never became something else.

[00:38:24] Mm hmm.

[00:38:25] It was just Arthur Fleck always.

[00:38:27] Right.

[00:38:28] Yeah.

[00:38:28] And they, they, Arthur Fleck was always literally putting on makeup rather than having his skin permanently bleached.

[00:38:35] Right.

[00:38:37] And so, um, fell into a vat of acid.

[00:38:40] Like you said, his skin is bleached.

[00:38:41] His hair is turning green and he gets this exaggerated clown smile.

[00:38:47] Right.

[00:38:48] Right.

[00:38:48] This was the origin of who we come to know as the Joker.

[00:38:55] He's a criminal.

[00:38:57] He's a murderer.

[00:38:58] He's insane.

[00:39:01] Mm hmm.

[00:39:02] He views everything that he does as entertainment, which is another part of what the movie got right.

[00:39:11] Mm hmm.

[00:39:11] Because he was acting to the crowd.

[00:39:14] Well, Joker is acting to a crowd of one really.

[00:39:18] And that's Batman.

[00:39:22] Right.

[00:39:22] So everything that he does is in relation to his relation with Batman.

[00:39:30] Mm hmm.

[00:39:31] What else you want to.

[00:39:33] I mean, so I guess that's, that's his origin story, physical characteristics and personality.

[00:39:39] What is his, what is his power set?

[00:39:43] What are his weapons?

[00:39:44] Okay.

[00:39:45] So he's highly resistant to pain, whether that's because of the chemicals that he fell into or whether because he's just a sadio mechicis.

[00:39:55] Right.

[00:39:55] Mm hmm.

[00:39:56] Um, someone who enjoys the pain that he's being given.

[00:39:59] Mm hmm.

[00:40:00] And most certainly he enjoys it when Batman is the one delivering the pain to him.

[00:40:04] Mm hmm.

[00:40:05] So, um, there's something going on between those two.

[00:40:08] Right.

[00:40:09] Mm hmm.

[00:40:09] He has an immunity to poison.

[00:40:11] Mm hmm.

[00:40:11] Um, he, he, he has something that is called Joker venom that turns people into hysterical maniacs.

[00:40:18] He's immune to that.

[00:40:20] Um, he's very, very smart.

[00:40:22] He has a great knowledge of chemistry and engineering.

[00:40:27] He's a very skilled hand to hand, um, fighter.

[00:40:30] He's not as strong as Batman, but he's probably more agile, more, faster than Batman.

[00:40:37] Um, he has, you know, some knowledge of martial arts.

[00:40:42] Um, and it said that his fighting is very difficult to predict.

[00:40:48] It's very chaotic.

[00:40:49] Right.

[00:40:50] Um, so not sure if that's learned or if that is because of his mental, uh, state.

[00:40:58] Right.

[00:40:58] He uses various weapons.

[00:41:00] You, I'm sure you've seen some of them.

[00:41:03] Uh, he has the Joker venom.

[00:41:05] Like, as I said, the Joker chattering teeth that come at you to turn, turn, turn, turn.

[00:41:10] Right.

[00:41:11] Um, acid flowers, razor shot, throwing cards, pistols, the hand buzzer that will electrify

[00:41:18] you when he shakes your hand.

[00:41:20] And he's been known around.

[00:41:22] He's been known to get around town in the Joker mobile.

[00:41:25] Okay.

[00:41:27] And who are his allies?

[00:41:29] He has no allies.

[00:41:31] The only ally, the only true blue ally that he's ever had was Harley Quinn.

[00:41:37] Mm-hmm.

[00:41:37] And that was a fucked up relationship from the beginning.

[00:41:40] A very abusive relationship.

[00:41:42] He was an abusive character towards her.

[00:41:44] So I don't even, I, to call her an ally.

[00:41:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:41:51] Would be a misnomer, I think.

[00:41:53] But she was kind of his sidekick and who ended up realizing she deserves her own story.

[00:41:59] He deserved better, right, than what she was getting from him.

[00:42:04] Um, everybody else steers clear of him because they all recognize, I'm talking about all the

[00:42:10] other criminals that are in Gotham.

[00:42:12] Mm-hmm.

[00:42:13] Um, they steer clear of him because he's not really controllable.

[00:42:18] They don't know what his plan, he could be on your side today.

[00:42:23] Mm-hmm.

[00:42:23] And in another hour, the next day, things shift.

[00:42:28] Yeah.

[00:42:29] So he's not a reliable partner in crime.

[00:42:33] So would you say his only real enemy is Batman?

[00:42:38] Yes.

[00:42:40] Batman and those in the Bat family.

[00:42:43] Okay.

[00:42:45] Right.

[00:42:46] And what about his weaknesses?

[00:42:49] Wow.

[00:42:50] I think the, the major weakness, he has no real superpower.

[00:42:55] Mm-hmm.

[00:42:56] Right.

[00:42:56] So he can be, he could be overpowered by someone, a superpower being, um, fairly quickly if

[00:43:04] they wanted to, if they could.

[00:43:07] His weakness is his obsession with Batman.

[00:43:11] Mm-hmm.

[00:43:13] That causes a lot of his plans to go awry because he wants to prove something to have

[00:43:19] something with the Dark Knight.

[00:43:22] Yeah.

[00:43:22] He needs to do what Harley did to him and leave that bad ex.

[00:43:26] You deserve better, Joker Boo.

[00:43:30] Maybe.

[00:43:32] Maybe.

[00:43:33] I don't even think Batman realizes that he's in a relationship with the Joker yet.

[00:43:38] One-sided.

[00:43:40] Oh.

[00:43:40] One-sided.

[00:43:42] One-sided.

[00:43:42] No.

[00:43:43] So yeah.

[00:43:44] I think that's his, really his, the biggest weakness that he has is the obsession with Batman.

[00:43:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:43:51] Yeah.

[00:43:51] With, you know, having this back and forth with the Dark Knight.

[00:43:57] You know, always being in each other's periphery, circling each other, if not in outright conflict,

[00:44:04] but always somewhere in the background.

[00:44:06] He's always thinking about Batman.

[00:44:09] Right.

[00:44:09] And that is his biggest weakness to me.

[00:44:13] Yeah.

[00:44:13] So if someone were looking to get into Joker as a comic book character, where would you recommend that they start?

[00:44:22] Oh, man.

[00:44:24] There are so many comic books.

[00:44:28] Um, some single issues, but I mean, the killing joke, Batman, the killing joke, Batman, a death in the family, um, Arkham Asylum, a serious house on serious earth.

[00:44:43] Um, Batman, um, Batman, um, Joker's five way revenge.

[00:44:50] Any of those would be a good starting point for anyone to get to know who the Joker is.

[00:44:56] Hmm.

[00:44:58] All right.

[00:44:59] Can you tell me a bit about like what story, uh, you think is one that's good to start with?

[00:45:06] Any of those that I just named, but if you have to read one, read a death in the family or the killing joke.

[00:45:14] Okay.

[00:45:15] Okay.

[00:45:15] By Alan Moore.

[00:45:16] Yeah.

[00:45:17] Death in the family was written by Starlin and Aparo and the killing joke is written by Alan, by Alan Moore.

[00:45:25] Okay, cool.

[00:45:27] All right.

[00:45:28] Any final things you want to put out on Joker's roster before we move on to Madcap?

[00:45:33] Um, I think he's underrated, underestimated because he doesn't have superpowers, but he's very cunning, very intelligent, and he's a really good planner.

[00:45:51] So his, his capers might take a little while to come to fruition, but he's always has a plan inside of a plan inside of a plan.

[00:46:07] Okay.

[00:46:09] All right.

[00:46:09] On that note, let's take a pause here.

[00:46:11] And when we come back, I'm going to tell you about why I think Madcap is Marvel's Joker, and then we're going to let them fight.

[00:46:20] See you in a sec.

[00:46:40] All right.

[00:46:41] All right.

[00:46:41] Madcap, Marvel, Madman, primarily located in New York City.

[00:46:48] Um, so this isn't one that hasn't made it to live action yet.

[00:46:53] So I'm sure a lot of people are not familiar with him, but okay, here's, I'm going to tell you an origin story.

[00:47:01] And then I'm going to tell you upfront that Deadpool, who is his arch nemesis thinks that this story is bullshit.

[00:47:09] Oh, here's a story.

[00:47:12] And I, this comes from, I think you read the captain America comic that covers this backstory or.

[00:47:17] Yeah, I did.

[00:47:18] I did.

[00:47:19] Okay.

[00:47:20] So he, according to this story, he had a religious background and he was going on a trip with a bunch of friends and family, including his beloved sister, Katie.

[00:47:33] Um, and aim a, a advanced idea mechanics is a group aim.

[00:47:40] This is the group that's run by Modoc, you know, the, from actually my favorite part of the Ant-Man three movie, to be honest, even though I know that's an unpopular opinion, but.

[00:47:51] Um, I have to say there's a one season Modoc show on Hulu or Disney plus planning on where you live that.

[00:47:58] Uh, I think it's just way better than I expected, but of course it's on Hulu.

[00:48:03] Yeah.

[00:48:04] It's on Hulu in the U S but it's on Disney plus in the rest of the world where I live.

[00:48:07] Yeah.

[00:48:08] Uh, cause Hulu's American, but yeah.

[00:48:11] So aim, they are, you know, troublesome group up there with Hydra.

[00:48:17] They are also the ones who got my Teddy boy theater Salas.

[00:48:21] And basically they're the ones behind the entire situation that turned into man mechanics.

[00:48:27] Yeah.

[00:48:28] It's their fault that theater Salas is man thing.

[00:48:31] And it's their fault that this unnamed person has become mad cap.

[00:48:38] So basically there's the, they end up blowing up this chemical X Oh seven.

[00:48:45] It's, it was an experimental nerve agent, um, that they were trying to get rid of.

[00:48:50] And it, it ended up, you know, catching this bus in the accident.

[00:48:55] And there are 40 people who died.

[00:48:58] Everyone except mad cap, all of his friends and family.

[00:49:01] And, um, he decided he didn't want to live after that.

[00:49:05] So he kept trying to off himself, but it turns out that this nerve, this agent that he'd been laying around in for hours had enzymes in it that incite rapid healing in humans.

[00:49:19] So he's now indestructible and he cannot die.

[00:49:23] And this pretty much causes him to go mad.

[00:49:27] So his real name is unknown.

[00:49:29] Um, his part of his madness is that a lot of the time, or at least at first, he doesn't understand that other people aren't invulnerable like him.

[00:49:38] So he's just kind of a, uh, you know, loose cannon basically everywhere, but also he believes that life is meaningless.

[00:49:46] So one of the creators, Mark Grinwald said madcap represents purposelessness.

[00:49:52] The disaffected youth of today who thinks what's the reason for doing anything, the ultimate dropout generation.

[00:49:59] Um, but, uh, yeah, I evolved from, from there.

[00:50:06] Um, his most iconic weapon is like super stupid.

[00:50:10] It's a bubble gun, but it's, it was just basically symbolic because his real weapon is a little bit.

[00:50:16] But what's the most important weapon is emotional control.

[00:50:19] He's like got this intense power of suggestion basically where he can make a crowd go mad and they'll all start, um, going at each other, killing each other, just being crazy and distracting.

[00:50:30] Um, or dancing.

[00:50:32] Yeah.

[00:50:33] Or eating in the trash.

[00:50:34] Just, just, they'll just, you know, it, it basically, he releases chaos, just chaos energy.

[00:50:42] And he used to use this bubble gun to transmit this, but then eventually he realized that he could do it with eye contact.

[00:50:49] And then eventually he realized even his voice could do it.

[00:50:53] So, and at one point he was into a psychiatric hospital, but he used his powers and instead became the host of a TV show.

[00:51:02] Um, I first came across him in ghost rider comics where, so he can't, he has a healing factor.

[00:51:11] That's apparently Deadpool says that his healing factors stronger than Deadpool zone, uh, a quick stamina recovery.

[00:51:17] And he originally had no pain.

[00:51:19] There are only certain, um, times when he can feel pain.

[00:51:23] One, we'll talk about the Deadpool thing, but another is when ghost rider saw him and fixed him in his like death stare.

[00:51:32] Um, madcap felt pain and he, he liked it and he wanted more.

[00:51:37] So he started to crave that feeling.

[00:51:41] Um, as far as allies, do you know, Bob do bolina?

[00:51:48] No, he's a, uh, he's a Deadpool, um, sidekick basically.

[00:51:53] And he also like was an agent for Hydra and I think aim as well.

[00:51:59] Um, and madcap at one point goes through because madcap's indestructible.

[00:52:03] Sometimes like one point they thought he was dead, but actually he had crawled into Deadpool's mind.

[00:52:09] And lived in there for a while.

[00:52:11] Another point, uh, he's, he seemed to have disappeared, but he actually was like living like Quato, you know, Quato from a total recall.

[00:52:19] Yes. Yes.

[00:52:20] Like sticking out of Bob's chest.

[00:52:23] Oh my gosh.

[00:52:24] Um, until Deadpool caught him and he ran away, but yeah, he's had interactions with other people.

[00:52:30] Like he had interactions with nomad and that's a Jack Monroe version, uh, daredevil.

[00:52:35] And sometimes like people will team up with him, but then at some point they realize that he's too much of a loose cannon and he's going to hurt people.

[00:52:44] And they end up having to turn on him.

[00:52:46] So I wouldn't, I would say that he also doesn't really have any, um, real allies.

[00:52:54] He's, he's definitely pissed off.

[00:52:56] She Hulk as well as everyone else I've named.

[00:53:01] And he, yeah, but Deadpool's really his arch nemesis.

[00:53:04] Like madcap went for, for a while.

[00:53:06] He was like, I just want to just make Deadpool's life miserable.

[00:53:10] He started impersonating him, give him a bad name.

[00:53:13] We just wanted to ruin his life for, uh, after, you know, being in his mind for so long.

[00:53:18] But then eventually he realized that Deadpool had already ruined his own life.

[00:53:22] So Deadpool calls the collector to take madcap away and madcap's like, yeah, that's fine.

[00:53:28] I'm actually bored with you now anyway.

[00:53:32] So that's, that's the madcap story.

[00:53:36] And I don't know weaknesses.

[00:53:37] Yeah.

[00:53:38] I mean, I guess just like the fact he can't be reasoned with is a problem, you know, that he's always going to ruin any situation eventually.

[00:53:49] And I think, yeah, his, his masochism craving for pain is basically, he's not someone that you want to team up with.

[00:53:58] So the story, the, the first appearance of backstory we talked about, you read that comic, right?

[00:54:03] Captain America volume one.

[00:54:05] Yeah.

[00:54:05] I read them.

[00:54:06] I read them.

[00:54:08] Number three Oh seven and three Oh nine from 1985.

[00:54:10] That's where he first appears and you get his backstory.

[00:54:13] So I recommend that, but I also recommend his first, um, meeting with ghost rider, which is ghost rider.

[00:54:19] Volume three, number 33 from 1992.

[00:54:22] And his first big series with Deadpool is Deadpool volume four from 2010.

[00:54:28] And he appears in like six of the issues in that one.

[00:54:32] Um, and, but also definitely Deadpool annual volume three, um, from 2014, because that talks about how he and Deadpool merged and separated because he was in Deadpool's mind for a while.

[00:54:46] And he was like this extra voice that would be drawn differently in the comic.

[00:54:50] So his consciousness was in his mind or.

[00:54:52] Yeah.

[00:54:53] Like a tumor.

[00:54:54] Well, I, I, I, let's say like, I don't know that like, yeah, let's say like a tumor because he does seem to be able to, he was able to reform himself.

[00:55:03] Basically.

[00:55:04] I don't know.

[00:55:04] It's always like the, the rules of matter seem fast and loose.

[00:55:07] Like another time she Hulk, she like traps him in a page and rips it up.

[00:55:11] And then she's like, well.

[00:55:12] Yeah.

[00:55:13] She spoke to the editor.

[00:55:15] But that's she, you know, this guy.

[00:55:18] Yeah.

[00:55:20] She's like, I didn't kill him.

[00:55:21] He's on paper.

[00:55:23] Yeah.

[00:55:24] Yeah.

[00:55:25] Um, and yeah, the, so the Deadpool annual it's, uh, it's linked also to that Deadpool volume four.

[00:55:34] So yeah, that's where I would recommend if anyone wants to read more about it, but should we make them fight?

[00:55:41] Ding, ding, ding.

[00:55:42] I mean, it's not a fair fight.

[00:55:44] Because he's invulnerable.

[00:55:46] No, because Joker is going to end him.

[00:55:51] Okay.

[00:55:52] All right.

[00:55:53] So, all right.

[00:55:55] Here's because this is a Joker review.

[00:55:59] This is where we started.

[00:56:00] So we are on Joker's turf.

[00:56:02] So we're in Gotham city.

[00:56:05] Madcap has just wandered in there and Joker gets a surprise attack.

[00:56:11] What's he going to do?

[00:56:13] He's going to, first of all, he's going to ask him, why is he wearing this crazy ass outfit?

[00:56:18] Oh yeah.

[00:56:19] I forgot to describe the outfit.

[00:56:22] No, you didn't describe the outfit.

[00:56:23] You gotta describe the outfit.

[00:56:25] Okay.

[00:56:25] So, okay.

[00:56:26] He's, um, he just basically decided, he went to a costume store and got like a clown Harlequin outfit, but it's like yellow and has like red and black stripes.

[00:56:37] And then he's got, um, like a little, a black cape and cap.

[00:56:42] Like he's a, like Zorro sort of figure.

[00:56:46] He's like a Zorro clown without the, with a bubble gun.

[00:56:50] That's a good way to say it.

[00:56:51] A Zorro clown.

[00:56:52] With a bubble gun.

[00:56:55] That's great.

[00:56:58] But you see the, do you see the overlaps?

[00:57:00] Like, you know, the, about the craving for pain and about the madness and try and making other people infected with madness.

[00:57:07] And yeah, the chemical, um, I see where you, where you, where you're going with it.

[00:57:13] I see where you're going.

[00:57:14] I see why you chose my cap.

[00:57:16] I get it.

[00:57:17] I get it.

[00:57:18] But Joker would hand him his ass.

[00:57:20] All right.

[00:57:20] Tell me how Joker is going to hand him his ass.

[00:57:22] He's, he's just wandering through Gotham city.

[00:57:25] Like how the fuck did I get here?

[00:57:28] And then Joker.

[00:57:29] First, he's like, what are you doing here?

[00:57:31] What are you, what are you wearing?

[00:57:34] Here's a little bit of this acid.

[00:57:36] You, you, cause you're, you're obviously, you know, you're trying to provoke me.

[00:57:40] I'm the only clown in town.

[00:57:42] So what's going on?

[00:57:43] As it to the face real quick.

[00:57:46] Right.

[00:57:48] Madcap face reforms.

[00:57:50] Yeah.

[00:57:51] No.

[00:57:51] And then Joker would look at him and be like, oh, so you could do that.

[00:57:54] Okay.

[00:57:55] Let's cut off some limbs.

[00:57:57] Limbs get cut off.

[00:57:59] Put in boxes.

[00:58:00] And then he's out.

[00:58:03] That's it.

[00:58:04] No.

[00:58:04] Cause he, he was, has, he's come back from worse.

[00:58:07] You know, he, he's come back from complete obliteration.

[00:58:10] His limbs come back together, but he's also, while Joker is like attacking him.

[00:58:16] He is infecting Joker with his madness.

[00:58:20] And now Joker is ultra mad.

[00:58:22] But that's the, but not only Joker, other people on the street and they're all attacking each other.

[00:58:27] But that's the thing.

[00:58:29] This was what Joker would welcome.

[00:58:32] What if these two just partied together?

[00:58:35] That would be something that would be, that would be something because I think he would try to use his power of suggestion on, on Joker and it wouldn't work because Joker's mind is already broken.

[00:58:48] Right.

[00:58:49] So yeah, it's kind of a checkmate.

[00:58:52] Yeah.

[00:58:52] It wouldn't work.

[00:58:54] So Joker would be like, Oh yeah, I wanted to do that anyway.

[00:58:58] You know what I mean?

[00:58:59] So there is, that sort of cancels out.

[00:59:03] The only thing that, like you said, he's virtually immortal, so he can't be killed.

[00:59:09] So that's why I would say that in a battle, I would see Joker figuring out a way to incapacitate him in order to get away, not to actually kill him because you can't kill him.

[00:59:21] Right.

[00:59:22] Right.

[00:59:23] It's about getting rid of him for a while, but it's also like, cause he can, cause madcap can also just become a tumor on Joker basically.

[00:59:32] Again, that would please Joker.

[00:59:36] That's just what I'm saying.

[00:59:39] There's no getting around it.

[00:59:41] Did our first verses just become best friends?

[00:59:44] I think so.

[00:59:45] I think so.

[00:59:46] I think that would just make him happy because you're trying to get someone who, to behave abnormally.

[00:59:58] Mm-hmm.

[00:59:59] That's where Joker lives in the abnormal.

[01:00:03] Right.

[01:00:04] Right.

[01:00:05] He exists in the abnormal.

[01:00:07] So there is nothing with his particular power set that he could do that would change Joker and make him different.

[01:00:20] But wouldn't Joker get mad or annoyed if like, he went after Batman and madcap was just getting in the way, thwarting his plans with random chaos?

[01:00:31] Yes.

[01:00:32] That, that could get Joker annoyed.

[01:00:34] Definitely.

[01:00:35] And then he would have to focus on madcap and figure out a way to get madcap out of the scene.

[01:00:41] Mm-hmm.

[01:00:42] And that's why I'm saying, I think the, the one thing that he would do would either a chop up his body, his body and scatter them to the four corners of the earth.

[01:00:55] But what if madcap, like attached himself to Joker first before he could do that?

[01:01:02] Then I think Joker would treat him like a pet.

[01:01:05] Like, look at my pet Batman.

[01:01:09] Not his two of them.

[01:01:09] He can control also.

[01:01:11] He can exert some control.

[01:01:12] I don't think he would be able to control Joker.

[01:01:14] That's what, that's, that's what I'm saying.

[01:01:16] I don't think he would be able to.

[01:01:20] All right.

[01:01:20] Because you have, you, you have to have, your mind has to be intact in order for it to break.

[01:01:26] Mm-hmm.

[01:01:28] Joker's mind is broken in so, in so many ways that to control this person, I don't think one could do it.

[01:01:38] So he becomes, I mean, that's the question is then, I guess, is does, now that madcap is bored with Deadpool, does he cross over to the DC universe and make Joker his new nemesis and try to ruin his life?

[01:01:54] I don't think, I don't think he would.

[01:01:56] I don't think he would.

[01:01:58] I don't think he would.

[01:01:58] I think, because I think primarily madcap wants to exert that level of control over one's mental state.

[01:02:09] Like in all the comics that I've read, that's the one thing that he was really wanting to do was make people go quote unquote crazy.

[01:02:19] Right.

[01:02:20] If he can't do that, what's the point?

[01:02:23] Yeah, but he got, he was getting bored at the end.

[01:02:26] I mean, I guess he hasn't been in a comic book in a few years, but the last thing he said was like, meh, I'm bored with you, Deadpool.

[01:02:34] I mean, even Wade is, you know, Wade, Deadpool is not easily, his mind is not normal as well.

[01:02:43] Mm.

[01:02:44] No.

[01:02:44] And so that made madcap matter after he spent time in Deadpool's mind.

[01:02:48] And then what?

[01:02:51] Nothing.

[01:02:51] I think he, the outcome that he desired, he could not get.

[01:02:55] That's what I'm trying to say.

[01:02:57] Mm-hmm.

[01:02:57] So his desired outcome, he would never get with the Joker.

[01:03:00] Right.

[01:03:01] Yeah.

[01:03:01] It could be a real arch nemesis, best friend situation.

[01:03:05] It could be best friends.

[01:03:06] They could wreak havoc together, but I don't see.

[01:03:09] He, I think Joker would always eventually get annoyed with madcap.

[01:03:13] I think madcap, at least as he's portrayed so far, he's incapable of having long-term friends.

[01:03:18] Well then.

[01:03:19] Yeah.

[01:03:20] That makes sense.

[01:03:21] But again, I just don't think he would be able to exert the amount of control that he exerts over others with the Joker.

[01:03:29] Okay.

[01:03:30] I don't think he would be able to control the Joker at all.

[01:03:32] So we think the fight ends with them going for a beer?

[01:03:35] I think the fight ends with them going their separate ways.

[01:03:38] Not necessarily with, with beers, but with begrudgingly, I can't, you know, I'll get you another day type of situation.

[01:03:48] But maybe they go first for just one lark.

[01:03:51] They go for a beer and they make the entire bar, like go crazy and fight each other.

[01:03:55] And they're like, ha ha ha.

[01:03:57] That was fun.

[01:03:57] You just really want them to go wreak havoc together.

[01:04:00] That's what it boils down to.

[01:04:02] That's what it boils down to.

[01:04:05] You want the havoc.

[01:04:06] Next crossover comic, please.

[01:04:08] You want the havoc.

[01:04:09] I didn't know you wanted the havoc like this, Alicia.

[01:04:11] I didn't know this about you.

[01:04:13] I mean.

[01:04:13] The truth comes out.

[01:04:14] Look who we're talking about.

[01:04:15] The truth is out.

[01:04:18] Oh my gosh.

[01:04:19] So yeah, that's how I think it would, it would wind up.

[01:04:22] I don't think there would be a, the only way I can see Madcap defeating him is if he like just lashed out and broke his neck or something like that.

[01:04:37] You know what I mean?

[01:04:39] But I don't think Joker would put him himself in a situation where that could happen.

[01:04:44] Yeah.

[01:04:45] Okay.

[01:04:46] Okay.

[01:04:47] I don't think he would be able to get hands on him to do that.

[01:04:51] I don't know.

[01:04:52] I mean, I think they're both pretty agile.

[01:04:55] I, but I, I agree.

[01:04:56] I think that this one, it's going to end up being a truce because what can they really do to each other when they have the same tricks?

[01:05:03] Maybe.

[01:05:03] I wonder how often we'll run into that problem where we pick characters that are intentionally